9 June 2000. Thanks to Anonymous.
1 1 2 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 3 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 4 5 UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., PARAMOUNT ) PICTURES CORPORATION, METRO-GOLDWYN-MAYER) 6 STUDIOS, INC., TRISTAR PICTURES, INC., ) COLUMBIA PICTURES INDUSTRIES, INC., ) 7 TIME WARNER ENTERTAINMENT CO., L.P., ) DISNEY ENTERPRISES, INC., and TWENTIETH ) 8 CENTURY FOX FILM CORPORATION, ) ) Civ. No. 9 Plaintiffs, ) 0277 (LAK) ) 10 vs. ) ) 11 ERIC CORLEY a/k/a "EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN" ) and 2600 ENTERPRISES, INC., ) 12 ) Defendants. ) 13 -----------------------------------------) 14 May 15, 2000 15 10:25 a.m. 16 17 DEPOSITION of ROBERT W. SCHUMANN, 18 held at the offices of Frankfurt Garbus 19 Klein & Selz, P.C., 488 Madison Avenue, New 20 York, New York, pursuant to Subpoena and 21 Notice, before ELIZABETH SANTAMARIA, a 22 Notary Public of the State of New York. 23 24 Reported by: ELIZABETH SANTAMARIA 25 JOB NO. 05150SCH INTERIM COURT REPORTING 2 1 2 A p p e a r a n c e s : 3 4 PROSKAUER ROSE LLP 5 Attorneys for Plaintiffs 6 1585 Broadway 7 New York, New York 10036-8299 8 BY: LEON P. GOLD, ESQ. 9 - and - 10 WILLIAM M. HART, ESQ. (a.m only) 11 12 FRANKFURT GARBUS KLEIN & SELZ, P.C. 13 Attorneys for Defendants 14 488 Madison Avenue 15 New York, New York 10022 16 BY: MARTIN GARBUS, ESQ. 17 - and - 18 EDWARD HERNSTADT, ESQ. 19 ALSO PRESENT: 20 Motion Picture Association 21 Mark D. Litvack, Esq. In-house Counsel 22 --o0o-- 23 24 25 INTERIM COURT REPORTING 3 1 2 --o0o-- 3 4 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by 5 and between the attorneys for the 6 respective parties herein that filing and 7 sealing be and the same are hereby waived. 8 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED 9 that all objections, except as to the form 10 of the question, shall be reserved to the 11 time of the trial. 12 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED 13 that the within deposition may be sworn to 14 and signed before any officer authorized to 15 administer an oath, with the same force and 16 effect as if signed and sworn to before the 17 Court. 18 --oOo-- 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 INTERIM COURT REPORTING 4 1 Schumann 2 R O B E R T W. S C H U M A N N, called as a 3 witness, having been duly sworn by the 4 Notary Public, was examined and testified 5 as follows: 6 EXAMINATION BY 7 MR. GARBUS: 8 Q. CONFIDENTIAL 9 CONFIDENTIAL 10 A. CONFIDENTIAL 11 Q. CONFIDENTIAL 12 A. CONFIDENTIAL 13 CONFIDENTIAL 14 MR. GOLD: Mr. Garbus, I would 15 like to propose that we stipulate that 16 this deposition is taken pursuant to the 17 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and 18 related Federal law. Is that okay with 19 you? 20 MR. GARBUS: Absolutely. 21 MR. GOLD: I also want to note 22 that the witness appears here today 23 pursuant to a Subpoena served on the MPAA 24 and a Notice of Deposition served on all 25 of the plaintiffs, that he is a INTERIM COURT REPORTING 5 1 Schumann 2 designated fact witness of the Motion 3 Picture Association of America and a 4 designated fact witness of all of the 5 plaintiffs, except for Time Warner. 6 With respect to Time Warner or 7 with respect to the Time Warner 8 plaintiff, the court has ruled that at 9 this stage you cannot take any 10 discovery of that organization. The 11 designated areas were set out in a 12 letter to you last week and they are 13 the following subjects: 14 A, DVD, CCS and DeCSS, Linux, 15 linking and hyperlinking, and the 16 existence of other DVD decryption 17 devices. 18 Those designations are the only 19 appropriate area of testimony today. 20 Mr. Hart points out that there 21 was another subject added by a 22 supplementary designation, and the 23 subject was injury to the plaintiffs. 24 MR. GARBUS: I respect that as 25 your position. You know where we INTERIM COURT REPORTING 6 1 Schumann 2 disagree. 3 MR. GOLD: No, but I don't think 4 it is relevant. 5 Q. Mr. Schumann, when did you first 6 learn about DeCSS? 7 A. Probably in, I don't know, September 8 or October of last year. 9 Q. Did you ever hear of something 10 called MORE? 11 A. Yes, I have. 12 Q. Have you read the affidavit of 13 Mr. Stevenson before you came here today? 14 A. Frank Stevenson? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you know who Mr. Stevenson is? 18 A. Only from my analysis in this 19 effort. 20 MR. GOLD: I'm sorry to interrupt. 21 I forgot to mention that the deposition 22 today is subject to the confidentiality 23 agreement we have all signed and I would 24 like to agree to reserve my 25 confidentiality stipulations until we get INTERIM COURT REPORTING 7 1 Schumann 2 a transcript. 3 MR. GARBUS: What do you mean by 4 that? 5 MR. GOLD: I will designate what 6 is confidential when I get the 7 transcript. 8 MR. GARBUS: I think if you have 9 an objection now as to anything that is 10 confidential, you should say. 11 MR. GOLD: Well, I don't know what 12 you are going to bring up. In that 13 event, since you don't want to agree to 14 that, then I will designate the whole 15 transcript as confidential. However, 16 when I get the transcript I will promptly 17 get to you an amendment, if an amendment 18 is called for. 19 MR. GARBUS: I disagree that this 20 deposition is confidential. 21 MR. GOLD: Do you intend to not 22 keep it confidential? Because we may 23 have to apply for an order. 24 MR. GARBUS: We will deal with it 25 at the appropriate time. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 8 1 Schumann 2 MR. GOLD: Do you want to agree 3 that you will hold it confidential until 4 we make a specific designation when we 5 get the transcript? 6 MR. GARBUS: It may well be that I 7 am going to go through questions now that 8 have nothing to do with confidentiality. 9 MR. GOLD: It may be. 10 MR. GARBUS: If that is so, then 11 we don't get into any disagreement about 12 confidentiality. 13 MR. GOLD: That's not good enough, 14 because, among other things, I don't want 15 to wake up and see this transcript in the 16 newspaper tomorrow, and I have reasons to 17 believe that that is a possibility, but I 18 won't get into that thoroughly. 19 In light of this discussion, I 20 have designated the entire transcript 21 as confidential. 22 RL MR. GARBUS: Needless to say, I 23 object to it. Needless to say, we will get 24 a ruling on it. 25 BY MR. GARBUS: INTERIM COURT REPORTING 9 1 Schumann 2 Q. Going back now to Masters of Reverse 3 Engineering or MORE, when for the first time did 4 you hear that? 5 A. Would have been probably November of 6 1999. 7 Q. Did you also read the affidavit of 8 Chris DiBona in this case? 9 A. I believe I did, yes. 10 Q. Did you receive the affidavit of 11 Robin Gross in this case? 12 A. Yes, I did. 13 Q. You saw the statement in her 14 affidavit that Mr. Carl Geckner had said, as far as 15 he knew, as far as ten days ago, there was no 16 piracy resulting from DeCSS? Did you see that? 17 A. I saw that statement, yes. 18 Q. Do you know that to be true? 19 A. No, I don't. 20 Q. You don't know one way or the other? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. So as of today you don't know 23 whether or not there has been any piracy or not 24 with respect to DeCSS? 25 A. That's accurate. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 10 1 Schumann 2 Q. Getting back to Mr. Stevenson, when 3 for the first time did you see his affidavit? 4 A. His affidavit? 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. The one, I don't know, dated a 7 couple of weeks ago, I guess? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. I would have seen it probably in the 10 last five days. 11 Q. Did you sign an affidavit in this 12 case? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. Did you sign two affidavits in this 15 case? 16 A. I believe I did, yes. 17 Q. Did you review them before you came 18 in here this morning? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Is everything that you said in those 21 affidavits true? 22 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. 23 Q. Is there anything that you want to 24 change now before we go into a discussion of those 25 affidavits? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 11 1 Schumann 2 A. No. 3 Q. Are there any factors that you have 4 learned since you signed those affidavits which 5 make any of the allegations in the affidavits 6 untrue? 7 A. Not to my knowledge. 8 Q. Going back to MORE, you say you 9 first heard of them in November of 1999? 10 A. Would have been November or early 11 December. 12 Q. Can you tell me what you heard about 13 them? 14 A. Only what I saw -- what I saw about 15 them in the development as journals, for lack of a 16 better word, of the Linux Group and then obviously 17 they were in the -- I must have seen them in 18 various newspaper press articles. 19 Q. To your knowledge, was MORE or any 20 members of MORE involved in the decrypting of 21 DeCSS? 22 A. Can you define "decrypting"? 23 MR. GARBUS: Withdraw the 24 question. 25 BY MR. GARBUS: INTERIM COURT REPORTING 12 1 Schumann 2 Q. To your knowledge, was John Johansen 3 involved in any way with MORE? 4 A. I believe he stated he was. 5 Q. Can you tell me what your 6 recollection is of what he stated? 7 A. I believe he stated he was a member 8 of MORE in various forms. 9 Q. Do you know what MORE does or what 10 it claims to do? 11 A. All I know is their name stands for 12 Masters of Reverse Engineering and they claim to 13 have created DeCSS. 14 Q. Do you know that they claim to have 15 been working on developing an open source Linux DVD 16 player? 17 MR. GOLD: What is the question? 18 Read the question back, please. 19 A. I am not aware of any such claim. 20 Q. You don't know one way or another? 21 A. No. I said I was -- I am not aware 22 of any such claim. 23 Q. What is CSS-auth? 24 A. It is in reference to a particular 25 program? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 13 1 Schumann 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. To my knowledge, it is a piece of 4 code for the Linux environment. 5 Q. Is it a program? 6 A. Yes, it is. 7 Q. Do you know who wrote it? 8 A. It was, I believe, written by Derek 9 Fawcus. 10 Q. Who is Derek Fawcus? 11 A. He was a member -- in my dealings 12 with that name, I don't know who he really is. 13 That's a name that was used. He was a member of 14 the DVD Development Group. 15 Q. Do you know what the Livid Group is? 16 A. Yes, I am aware of that name. 17 Q. What is the Livid Group? 18 A. It is a group of Linus developers 19 who are in the process of -- I assume they are 20 still doing it, developing a DVD player for Linux. 21 Q. When did they start to do that? 22 A. I don't know exactly when they 23 started. 24 Q. Approximately. 25 A. I guess early 1999, but I don't know INTERIM COURT REPORTING 14 1 Schumann 2 the exact date. 3 Q. Do you know who are the members of 4 the Livid Group? 5 A. I knew some of them at the time I 6 reviewed materials, but I certainly don't claim to 7 know all the members. 8 Q. At the time you reviewed the 9 materials, can you tell me who some of the members 10 were? 11 A. I believe there was Derek Fawcus was 12 a member of that group, I believe Matt Pavlovich or 13 something like that, and there are a host of 14 others. 15 Q. Do you know anything about Derek 16 Fawcus's academic background? 17 A. No knowledge of that. 18 Q. How about Matt Pavlovich. 19 A. Only from, I believe, he gave a 20 deposition in this case. Not a deposition. I mean 21 an affidavit in this case, and he said he had been 22 to school -- been to college for four years. 23 Q. Did you ever have any dealings with 24 him? 25 A. No. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 15 1 Schumann 2 Q. After you heard that the Livid Group 3 was developing a DVD program in early 1999, did you 4 hear anything further about it? 5 A. I did not know -- I did not know of 6 their existence in early 1999. 7 Q. When did you first learn of their 8 existence? 9 A. In November-December of 1999. 10 Q. Do you know what they have done 11 since with respect to the attempt to develop such a 12 program? 13 A. I have not followed the development 14 efforts. 15 Q. Do you know anything at all about 16 those developments from November to the present 17 day? 18 A. Only through what I have read in the 19 affidavits. 20 MR. GOLD: By the way, it being 21 Monday morning, I wasn't strong at 22 remembering everything I wanted to say 23 right away, but I gather that we have 24 agreed that objections to specific 25 questions are reserved. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 16 1 Schumann 2 MR. GARBUS: Why wouldn't you make 3 your objections now? 4 MR. GOLD: I would rather reserve 5 them until the time of trial, which is 6 what everybody usually does. 7 MR. GARBUS: I think you reserve 8 objections as to substance, but not 9 objections as to form. I thought that 10 was the understanding. So that if there 11 is an objection as to form -- 12 MR. GOLD: That will not be 13 reserved. 14 MR. GARBUS: Right. 15 MR. GOLD: Every other objection 16 will be reserved, if you agree to that. 17 MR. GARBUS: If you agree to that 18 for your examination of my people. 19 MR. GOLD: Sure. 20 MR. GARBUS: Good. Can I have the 21 last question, please. 22 (Record read.) 23 BY MR. GARBUS: 24 Q. Do you know anything about the 25 development of CSS-auth, when it was first done? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 17 1 Schumann 2 A. I don't fully understand your 3 question. 4 Q. CSS-auth we have agreed is a Linux 5 BSD program written by the Livid Group? 6 A. It is a Linux program written by 7 Derek Fawcus. 8 Q. Do you know when it was written? 9 A. I believe, if recollections are 10 correct, it was written in June or July of 1999. 11 Q. What is its function? 12 A. Its function is to unlock a DVD 13 drive. 14 Q. Have you ever tried to use CSS-auth? 15 A. No, I have not used CSS-auth. 16 Q. Do you know whether it performs the 17 function that you just stated it did? 18 A. Based on the reports, it appears -- 19 MR. GOLD: I am going to object to 20 the form of that question. If you would 21 like to restate it. 22 MR. GARBUS: What was the 23 question? 24 (Record read.) 25 MR. GARBUS: You object to the INTERIM COURT REPORTING 18 1 Schumann 2 form? 3 MR. GOLD: Yes. 4 BY MR. GARBUS: 5 Q. Does the CSS-auth perform the 6 authorization to the DVD drive enabling the results 7 of a hidden block of data? 8 A. I'm sorry. The end of that question 9 was enabling -- 10 Q. The reading of a hidden block of 11 data. 12 MR. GOLD: Maybe we can read the 13 whole question back, please. 14 (Record read.) 15 Q. Enabling the reading of a hidden 16 block of data. 17 A. I believe it might. 18 Q. What is CSS-cat? 19 A. I don't exactly know what that is. 20 Q. When you say you don't exactly know, 21 do you have any idea what it is? 22 A. I can only presume from its name. 23 Q. What is your presumption? 24 A. It is a -- 25 MR. GOLD: I am going to object to INTERIM COURT REPORTING 19 1 Schumann 2 the form. 3 Q. Go ahead. What is your 4 understanding of CSS-cat based on its name? 5 A. It is a mechanism for reading files. 6 Q. Do you know who developed CSS-cat? 7 A. I do not. 8 Q. Do you know whether or not it is a 9 Linux BSD program? 10 A. Can you describe Linux BSD? 11 Q. You previously said that CSS-auth 12 was a Linux BSD program. 13 A. I belief I said CSS-auth was a Linux 14 program. 15 Q. Is CSS-cat a Linux program? 16 A. I believe it is. 17 Q. Do you know who developed it? 18 A. I do not. 19 Q. Was it developed by the Livid Group? 20 A. It may have been. I have no 21 detailed knowledge. 22 Q. Was it developed by Mr. Fawcus? 23 A. I do not know. 24 Q. Can you tell me something about your 25 educational background? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 20 1 Schumann 2 A. Sure. 3 Q. Go ahead. Where did you go to 4 college? 5 A. Rochester Institute of Technology. 6 Q. When did you finish? 7 A. 1985. 8 Q. What degree did you get? 9 A. Bachelor's. 10 Q. Did you get any subsequent 11 education? 12 A. I did not. No degree. 13 Q. Do you know what Linux is? 14 A. I assume so, yes. 15 Q. You assume you know? 16 A. As much as anybody knows what Linux 17 is. 18 Q. Tell me what you understand Linux to 19 be. 20 A. Linux is a variation of the UNIX 21 operating system. 22 Q. Have you ever operated Linux? 23 A. Yes, I have. 24 Q. Do you know what the term "open 25 source" means? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 21 1 Schumann 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. What does it mean? 4 A. It references a development style 5 where the source code is openly made available to 6 all developers. 7 Q. How did you learn about CSS-auth? 8 A. In my review of the development logs 9 from the Linux Development Group. 10 Q. When was that? 11 A. Would have been November or December 12 of 1999. 13 Q. Did you do any investigation as to 14 the amount of use of CSS-auth? 15 A. In what sense? 16 Q. Were people using it, to your 17 knowledge, in an attempt to replay DVDs? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Tell me how you came to that 20 knowledge. Merely from reading the Linux postings 21 or through some other source of information? 22 A. Through the Linux postings. 23 Q. Did you ever speak to anyone who had 24 done it? 25 A. No. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 22 1 Schumann 2 Q. Today, so far as your own knowledge 3 goes, other than what you read on the Linux 4 postings, do you know if anyone had you ever used 5 Linux CSS-auth to go into DVDs or play DVDs? 6 A. No. 7 Q. With respect to your affidavit, 8 after you first learned of DeCSS, what did you then 9 do? 10 MR. GOLD: I object to the form of 11 the question. 12 Q. Did you try and see whether DeCSS 13 could decrypt the DVD? 14 A. Yes, I did. 15 Q. When did you do that? 16 A. It would have been the same, 17 November-December time frame. 18 Q. Tell me exactly what you did, when 19 you did it, and where you did it. 20 A. I would have done it in my office 21 and I'm sure I downloaded DeCSS from a site. I 22 don't know exactly which one offhand. And then I 23 ran it against a -- on a Windows machine against 24 the DVD drive. 25 Q. What happened? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 23 1 Schumann 2 A. It showed me a very nice screen that 3 asks me what files, what I wanted to copy from the 4 DVD, and whether I wanted to merge the files 5 together, and where on my computer or the network 6 attached to my computer I wanted to write the 7 resultant file. 8 Q. Did you do that? 9 A. I did that, yes. 10 Q. How long did that take? 11 A. Not terribly long. 12 Q. Can you tell me what day this was? 13 A. I don't recall the exact date. 14 Q. When you say it's in your office, 15 where is your office? 16 A. In Herndon, Virginia. 17 Q. Are there any records that indicate 18 what you did on that date with respect to the 19 DeCSS? 20 A. I doubt I would have written a 21 detailed log, to that level of detail. 22 Q. I presume there is information on 23 your computer that would indicate what you did and 24 when you did it with respect to DeCSS; is that 25 right? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 24 1 Schumann 2 A. If there is still a copy of DeCSS on 3 my computer, it might show the data I downloaded. 4 Q. Do you know if there is a copy of 5 DeCSS on your computer? 6 A. There quite possibly is. 7 Q. Isn't DeCSS designed to send the 8 material to a permanent computer file or a 9 computer's hard drive? 10 A. That is the function that it 11 performs, yes. 12 Q. So wouldn't you have that hard 13 drive? 14 A. Certainly. 15 Q. Where would that hard drive be? 16 A. It would be in a computer in my 17 office. 18 MR. GARBUS: Will you produce 19 that? 20 MR. GOLD: The entire computer in 21 his office? 22 MR. GARBUS: The hard drive. 23 MR. GOLD: You want the whole hard 24 drive? 25 MR. GARBUS: Yes. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 25 1 Schumann 2 MR. GOLD: I object to that as 3 irrelevant. 4 BY MR. GARBUS: 5 Q. After you stored it on the hard 6 drive, then what did you do? 7 A. Then I presume I -- it may have been 8 zipped or compressed, so it downloaded faster. I 9 would presume it would have decompressed and I 10 would have executed the program. What I did with 11 the movie after -- 12 Q. When you say it was zipped or 13 compressed, tell me the kind of computer you were 14 using to download the -- 15 A. It was a Windows machine. I think 16 it was a Windows NT machine. 17 Q. You say it was zipped or compressed. 18 Can you tell me what that means? 19 A. It means that the executable file 20 was compressed, which is standard technique used in 21 the industry. 22 Q. Was this done on your machine also? 23 A. The compression? 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. No. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 26 1 Schumann 2 Q. Where was that done? 3 A. I don't know where it was done. 4 Q. Well, tell me how you had it 5 compressed. 6 A. I didn't compress it. I received 7 it -- I would have received it, I believe, 8 compressed. I don't remember the details. It's a 9 standard technique, however. 10 Q. And then after you received it 11 compressed, what was then done? 12 A. I would have decompressed it or 13 perhaps it decompressed itself. I don't remember 14 the details. And then it installed itself. 15 Q. Did there come a time when you used 16 DeCSS? 17 A. I used DeCSS to test the -- to test 18 that it decrypted, yes. 19 Q. And you found that it did? 20 A. It appeared to have, yes. 21 Q. Did you then try and decrypt the 22 DVD? 23 A. That's what I would have done with 24 DeCSS. 25 Q. Did you ever try and see the movie, INTERIM COURT REPORTING 27 1 Schumann 2 a particular DVD movie using DeCSS? 3 A. I did not, no. 4 Q. To your knowledge, has anyone ever 5 done that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Who? 8 A. I believe some of the defendant 9 affidavits referenced that. 10 Q. To your knowledge, has other than 11 the defendants affidavits, prior to your seeing 12 those affidavits, did you know of one instance 13 where somebody used DeCSS to watch a DVD movie? 14 MR. GOLD: If your knowledge 15 resulted from any conversation with an 16 attorney or any conversation with the 17 plaintiffs after this suit was commenced, 18 I wouldn't answer the question. 19 Otherwise, I would answer. 20 MR. GARBUS: Go ahead. 21 A. Based on that, I think I will need 22 to refuse -- 23 MR. GOLD: In response to that 24 question, I am objecting on the 25 attorney-client privilege and the work INTERIM COURT REPORTING 28 1 Schumann 2 product privilege. 3 Q. Prior to January 14th, which is when 4 the suit started, had you ever heard of anyone 5 watching a DVD movie, having had access to the DVD 6 movie through DeCSS? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Who was that? 9 A. I don't remember the exact names, 10 but there are a variety of descriptions in the 11 Linux development logs of people who had using 12 DeCSS then proceeded to watch the movie. 13 Q. Other than the Linux logs, have you 14 ever heard of anyone using DeCSS to observe or 15 watch a DVD? 16 A. Prior to January 14th, no. 17 Q. You annexed some of those logs, did 18 you not, to your affidavit in this case? 19 A. I believe, yes, that's true. 20 Q. Now, you took those documents that 21 you annexed from your affidavit to your affidavit, 22 I presume, out of lengthier logs that you had. 23 In other words, you selected which 24 documents reflected the use of DeCSS to watch DVDs; 25 is that right? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 29 1 Schumann 2 MR. GOLD: Do you understand the 3 question? 4 THE WITNESS: I understand part of 5 the question. 6 MR. GOLD: Let's have the question 7 read back. 8 Actually, I am going to object 9 to the form of this. Do you want to 10 restate it? 11 MR. GARBUS: Mr. Gold, will you 12 produce those logs? 13 MR. GOLD: Which logs? 14 RQ MR. GARBUS: The logs that your 15 witness just referred to. Namely, he 16 referred in his Exhibit, Exhibit B of his 17 affidavit, to photostatic copies of 18 documents entitled "Linux DVD Re: Linux DVD 19 posting." 20 As I understand it, he had logs 21 of the Linux DVD postings. I am asking 22 him to produce those logs. 23 MR. GOLD: I object to the form of 24 the question and I don't -- I think you 25 are misrepresenting the witness' INTERIM COURT REPORTING 30 1 Schumann 2 testimony also. 3 By misrepresenting it, I just 4 mean that your question doesn't conform 5 to the prior testimony. I'm not yet 6 suggesting a willful act. 7 MR. GARBUS: Please mark this as 8 Defendants' 1. 9 (Defendants' Exhibit 1, Mr. Robert 10 W. Schumann's Declaration, dated January 11 19, 2000, marked for identification, as of 12 this date.) 13 BY MR. GARBUS: 14 Q. Mr. Schumann, I hand you what has 15 been marked as Defendants' Exhibit 1, your 16 affidavit dated January 19, 2000, along with a copy 17 of the exhibits that were submitted with the 18 affidavit, and I direct your attention to Exhibit B 19 of the affidavit, which is referred to at Paragraph 20 11 of your affidavit. 21 I ask you, when did you first see 22 these documents? 23 A. These documents? 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. I would have first seen them in INTERIM COURT REPORTING 31 1 Schumann 2 October or November. 3 Q. At 11 of your affidavit on Page 4 4 you say, "I attached as Exhibits B and C true 5 copies of pertinent pages from relevant internet 6 groups." 7 How did you decide which pages were 8 pertinent and which pages were not pertinent? What 9 were you looking for? 10 A. I was looking for pages that were 11 pertinent to the text of my affidavit. 12 Q. In other words, you were looking for 13 pages that indicated that there was some usage by 14 people who posted on that particular website of 15 DeCSS to get into a DVD? 16 A. I don't believe that that was the 17 particular purpose of those selections. 18 Q. What was the purpose of those 19 selections? 20 A. To define and illustrate the text of 21 the affidavit. 22 Q. You say, "that were downloaded from 23 the internet and examined by me and certain of my 24 colleagues under my supervision." 25 Who were those other colleagues? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 32 1 Schumann 2 A. Would have been Richard Whittemore. 3 Q. Do you have training in 4 cryptography? 5 A. Not in cryptography per se, no. 6 Q. Did you ever take any courses in 7 cryptography? 8 A. Not particular to cryptography, no. 9 Q. Have you ever taught at any 10 university? 11 A. I have not. 12 Q. Have you ever written any articles 13 that have been published in academic journals? 14 A. I have not. 15 Q. Have you written any articles that 16 have been published anywhere? 17 A. I have not. 18 Q. Have you ever been invited to speak 19 at any university on any matter? 20 A. I have not. 21 Q. Have you ever heard of the name 22 Mr. Stevenson before you first read his affidavit? 23 A. Frank Stevenson? 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. Yes, I had. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 33 1 Schumann 2 Q. In what context? 3 A. My review of looking through the 4 Linux development logs. 5 Q. Tell me what you saw there. 6 A. He published a paper that reviewed 7 CSS. 8 Q. Did you take down a copy of that 9 when you did your exercise in downloading relevant 10 documents from Linux DVD? 11 A. Did I download his paper? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. Yes, I downloaded his paper. 14 Q. What else did you download from that 15 that you did not include in that affidavit? 16 A. I downloaded a -- I didn't download. 17 There is a large amount of Linux DVD development, I 18 guess, history that you looked through. 19 Q. You chose not to put that into your 20 affidavit? 21 A. It is three inches of paper. 22 RQ MR. GARBUS: I ask that that be 23 produced. 24 MR. GOLD: I will take it under 25 advisement. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 34 1 Schumann 2 Q. Can you remember what other 3 documents you downloaded? You saw Mr. Stevenson's 4 information. Did you see any information from 5 Mr. Pavlovich? 6 A. Yes. He was a frequent contributor. 7 Q. Do you know anything about his 8 background? 9 A. Only what I referenced earlier. 10 Q. Had you heard of him prior to your 11 looking at these Linux postings? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you know Chris DiBona? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Had you ever heard of him prior to 16 your involvement in this case? 17 A. No. 18 Q. As Exhibit C to your affidavit, you 19 have some documents which are entitled "Livid-DEV." 20 You have distinguished that from Exhibit B. Can 21 you tell me what the difference is? 22 MR. GOLD: I don't know what you 23 mean by distinguished. You mean that 24 this is not in Exhibit B? Is that what 25 you mean. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 35 1 Schumann 2 MR. GARBUS: Yes. He made a 3 distinction between Exhibit B and Exhibit 4 C. 5 Q. What is the distinction? Why are 6 documents put behind a certain set of exhibits and 7 the other documents put behind a different set of 8 exhibits? What is the distinction? If you 9 understand it. 10 MR. GOLD: I object to the form of 11 the question, but I believe that what 12 Marty is asking is: Do you know why the 13 pieces of paper in Exhibit C weren't put 14 in Exhibit B? I think that's his 15 question. 16 Is that right? 17 MR. GARBUS: Yes. 18 Q. Do they come from a different source 19 or do they come from the same source? 20 A. Well, in reviewing them and not -- I 21 would have to look in detail. I mean I don't 22 recall a specific reason that I broke them up as I 23 did, but they appear -- the primary parts of B 24 appear to come from a group called Linux DVD and 25 the bulk of what is in C appears to come from a INTERIM COURT REPORTING 36 1 Schumann 2 different development group. Namely, Livid-DEV. 3 Q. With respect to Livid-DEV, did you 4 also download other documents than these two pages 5 that you have annexed hereto as Exhibit B? 6 MR. GOLD: You mean that same day 7 did he download any other -- 8 MR. GARBUS: That same day or any 9 other day. 10 MR. GOLD: Relating to what? 11 MR. GARBUS: Relating to his 12 investigation into how DeCSS was being 13 used. 14 A. I did not download any other 15 information from Linux-DVD. 16 Q. Only those -- 17 A. But I reviewed many other pages of 18 the Livid-DEV development -- 19 Q. How many pages? 20 A. -- groups. 21 Q. How many pages, to the best of your 22 recollection? 23 A. I'm sorry. My earlier answer, the 2 24 to 3 inches of paper includes both. 25 Q. In other words, everything that you INTERIM COURT REPORTING 37 1 Schumann 2 reviewed you printed out? 3 A. That's correct. I reviewed a 4 printout. 5 Q. So that you did not see anything 6 other than what was in that 3 and a half inches of 7 papers relating to either the Livid Development 8 Group or the Linux DVD group? 9 MR. GOLD: I object to the form. 10 A. I may have looked occasionally at 11 some references, but nothing of major significance. 12 Q. We are saying this was done at 13 sometime in November or December in your office in 14 Virginia? 15 A. Late November, early December, yes. 16 Q. Since then, have you looked at 17 either of these sites? 18 MR. GOLD: I object to the 19 question on the grounds of 20 attorney-client privilege and work 21 product privilege. 22 A. (No response.) 23 Q. From the time you first saw it until 24 January 14th, the date this lawsuit was instituted, 25 did you look at either of those sites again? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 38 1 Schumann 2 A. Not to my recollection. 3 RL Q. To your recollection, have you 4 looked at those sites since January 14th? 5 DI MR. GOLD: Same objection I made 6 before. 7 A. (No response.) 8 MR. GARBUS: So it is your 9 position that all the questions I would 10 have after January 14th of this witness 11 are subject to the attorney-client 12 privilege? 13 MR. GOLD: I don't know. I don't 14 think I could answer that question now. 15 I don't know what you are going to ask. 16 BY MR. GARBUS: 17 Q. After you downloaded all this 18 information in November or December of 1999, the 19 Linux postings, what did you do with it? 20 MR. GOLD: I am going to object to 21 that, but maybe first you want to break 22 that up as to time. 23 MR. GARBUS: He is saying November 24 or December. 25 MR. GOLD: Oh, in November and INTERIM COURT REPORTING 39 1 Schumann 2 December? 3 MR. GARBUS: Yes. 4 MR. GOLD: Read me the last 5 question back, please. 6 (Record read.) 7 MR. GOLD: That means what did you 8 do with it in November or December. I 9 think that's what he is saying. In those 10 two months. 11 A. After I -- or as I reviewed the 12 downloaded materials, after I finished reviewing 13 them, I did nothing with the downloaded materials. 14 Q. Did you download the materials the 15 same day that you downloaded the DeCSS? 16 A. No. 17 Q. What was the difference in time, if 18 you remember, between the time you downloaded the 19 DeCSS and you downloaded the materials? 20 A. It was infinite. 21 Q. Did you do it the same day? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Which did you do first, to the best 24 of your recollection? 25 A. I'm sorry. I did not download the INTERIM COURT REPORTING 40 1 Schumann 2 materials I reviewed that is attached here. I did 3 not do the downloading. I reviewed downloaded 4 materials, which is what I said in my affidavits, 5 but I did not, myself, download these materials. 6 Q. Your colleagues did? 7 A. They did not. 8 Q. Who did? 9 A. My client did. 10 Q. Which client? 11 A. That would have been MPAA. 12 RL Q. The client asked you to download the 13 materials when? 14 DI MR. GOLD: I am going to object to 15 the question as work product and 16 attorney-client privilege. 17 RL Q. Did you review the materials that 18 the MPAA asked you to review after or before you 19 first learned of the existence of DeCSS? 20 MR. GOLD: Same objection. If you 21 want to limit it to before the lawsuit, I 22 guess you can. 23 MR. GARBUS: He is talking 24 about -- 25 MR. GOLD: Your question wasn't INTERIM COURT REPORTING 41 1 Schumann 2 related to before the lawsuit. 3 Q. Did you at any time prior to the 4 lawsuit review the documents that are referred to 5 in Exhibits B and C? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. When did you review those? 8 A. Late November, early December. 9 Q. Do you remember whether or not you 10 reviewed those documents before or after you first 11 learned of the existence of DeCSS? 12 A. Probably prior. 13 Q. When you say your client MPAA, how 14 long have they been your client? 15 A. I was hired by them to perform this 16 review. 17 Q. When was that? 18 A. Late November. 19 Q. Prior to that, had you ever been 20 involved with the MPAA? 21 A. Not directly, no. 22 Q. Are you now a consultant for them on 23 this particular job? 24 A. I was a consultant for them on -- 25 for that review. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 42 1 Schumann 2 Q. Are you doing any other work for 3 them? 4 A. Not at this time. 5 Q. Directing your attention to 6 Paragraph 2, the first sentence of your affidavit, 7 it says, and you can read the sentence, "The DeCSS 8 utility serves one function only. To decrypt CSS 9 protected cipher text, including that embodied in 10 the DVD disk containing plaintiffs' motion pictures 11 and to copy and store the resulting unencrypted 12 audio-visual data in one or more computer files." 13 Is that an accurate statement? 14 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. 15 Q. Does the DeCSS serve any other 16 function? 17 A. The DeCSS utility? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. No. 20 Q. Can you, through the DeCSS utility 21 ultimately play the DVD or is its only function to 22 copy and store? 23 A. Its only function is to copy and 24 store. 25 Q. Have you had any conversations with INTERIM COURT REPORTING 43 1 Schumann 2 Mr. Valenti? 3 A. I have not. I presume you mean 4 Mr. Valenti of the MPAA. 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. No, I have not. 7 Q. Have you ever been retained by 8 Columbia Pictures, Disney Enterprises, 9 Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, or Universal City Studios to 10 do any work on their behalf? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Do you know any of the employees of 13 those companies? 14 A. I do. 15 Q. Do you know, have any of the 16 employees of those companies ever told you that 17 they have ever watched a DVD that has been 18 decrypted with DeCSS? 19 A. Have they ever watched a DVD that 20 has been decrypted with DeCSS? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. No. 23 Q. When you say you have spoken to 24 people at those companies, who is it that you have 25 spoken to at each of the companies? For example, INTERIM COURT REPORTING 44 1 Schumann 2 Universal. 3 MR. GOLD: If it was after January 4 of 00, don't answer. If it was before, 5 don't answer. 6 A. I assume my business -- confidential 7 information is covered under the confidentiality 8 clause, the earlier confidentiality issue. 9 Q. You have a lawyer there. 10 MR. GOLD: We are going to take 11 two minutes. 12 MR. GARBUS: Is there an open 13 question. 14 MR. GOLD: Please read back the 15 question. 16 (Record read.) 17 MR. GOLD: Off the record. 18 (Discussion off the record.) 19 MR. GARBUS: Merely the name of 20 the person. 21 MR. GOLD: The name of the person 22 and what they talked about would have to 23 be kept confidential. 24 MR. GARBUS: Let's start first off 25 with the name of the person. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 45 1 Schumann 2 MR. GOLD: I'm saying that the 3 name of the person would have to be kept 4 confidential, as well as the subject 5 matter. 6 MR. GARBUS: We would have to get 7 a ruling. All I am asking now, if you 8 are saying the names of any of the people 9 that he spoke to prior to January 14th 10 are to be kept confidential, then we 11 should get a ruling on it so that -- 12 MR. GOLD: Let me take it another 13 way. Would you restate your question to 14 cover the issues related to this lawsuit? 15 MR. GARBUS: Surely. 16 MR. GOLD: If you do that, then he 17 can answer. 18 BY MR. GARBUS: 19 Q. Can you tell me who prior to 20 January 14th you spoke to at Universal relating to 21 the issues relevant to this lawsuit? 22 A. No one. 23 Q. You can't tell me? You don't 24 remember? 25 A. I mean -- INTERIM COURT REPORTING 46 1 Schumann 2 MR. GOLD: He said no one. You 3 asked him who has he spoke to about the 4 issues in this lawsuit. He said nobody. 5 Nobody at that studio. 6 Q. Would your answer be the same with 7 respect to the other studios? 8 MR. GOLD: Except for Time Warner. 9 Q. Namely, that everything I asked you, 10 except for Time Warner, for our deposition, take 11 Time Warner out of it as if they were not here. 12 Don't tell me anything about Time Warner or anybody 13 you ever spoke to there. 14 A. To any material degree, nobody. 15 Q. To your knowledge, prior to 16 January 14th, did you know whether or not each of 17 these studios maintained information on whether or 18 not DeCSS was used to watch any DVDs that they had 19 manufactured, distributed, or been in any way 20 involved in? 21 A. Do I have any knowledge of that? 22 Q. Yes. 23 A. I have no knowledge either way. 24 Q. Do you have any knowledge of the 25 record keeping at any of the plaintiffs? Do you INTERIM COURT REPORTING 47 1 Schumann 2 know what I mean by "the plaintiffs"? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Everybody except for Time Warner, 5 relating to DeCSS or its application. 6 A. I have no knowledge. 7 Q. Do you know whether after 8 January 14th, do you have any knowledge whether or 9 not any of the plaintiffs, other than Time Warner, 10 maintain any records concerning the use of DeCSS? 11 A. I have no knowledge. 12 Q. Do you have any knowledge of who the 13 person is, if anyone, at each of the plaintiffs, 14 other than Time Warner, who is in charge of 15 securing information about the use of DeCSS? 16 A. I have no knowledge. 17 Q. Do you have any knowledge since 18 January 14th whether any of the plaintiffs, other 19 than Time Warner, maintain any records on DeCSS? 20 A. I have no knowledge. 21 Q. Have you ever been told by anybody 22 from the MPAA that since January 14th any one of 23 them has seen a movie, a DVD that has been 24 decrypted -- 25 MR. GOLD: Objection. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 48 1 Schumann 2 Q. -- by DeCSS? 3 MR. GOLD: Objection as to work 4 product and attorney-client privilege. 5 Q. By the way, are you a lawyer, 6 Mr. Schumann? 7 A. I am not. 8 Q. Who have you had conversations with 9 at the MPAA since November or December of 1999? 10 MR. GOLD: Do you have a cut-off 11 date on that question? 12 MR. GARBUS: Let's use 13 January 14th as the cut-off date. 14 A. Mark Litvack. 15 Q. That's the attorney sitting in this 16 room today? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Is he the sole person you spoke to 19 at the MPAA from November or December until 20 January 14th? 21 A. I was on a phone call with one other 22 gentleman, a conference call, and Mark, but I don't 23 recall the name of that other gentleman. 24 Q. Was the other gentleman a lawyer? 25 A. He may have been, but I don't know. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 49 1 Schumann 2 Q. Was he an MPAA employee? 3 A. To my knowledge, yes. 4 Q. Since January 14th, have you made 5 any investigation on your own to determine whether 6 or not DeCSS was being used to decrypt DVDs? 7 MR. GOLD: Just answer "yes" or 8 "no." 9 A. No. 10 Q. Pardon me? 11 A. On my own? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. No. 14 Q. Has your company? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Do you know if any other company 17 has? 18 MR. GOLD: I think he means did 19 you obtain knowledge prior to 20 January 14th that any company did. 21 A. What is the current question? 22 MR. GARBUS: Read it back. 23 (Record read.) 24 Q. -- been retained by the MPAA to 25 determine if DeCSS is being used to allow people to INTERIM COURT REPORTING 50 1 Schumann 2 see DVDs? 3 A. I have no knowledge. 4 Q. Have you ever seen any reports from 5 any other company indicating that the MPAA has 6 retained any company or individuals to determine if 7 DeCSS is being used to watch DVDs? 8 A. I have not seen any reports. 9 MR. GOLD: Before you ask another 10 question, I have to take a short break. 11 (Recess taken.) 12 BY MR. GARBUS: 13 Q. Are you presently employed by the 14 MPAA on this project? 15 A. No. 16 Q. When did your employment with the 17 MPAA end? 18 A. The end of the project would have 19 been in December. 20 Q. So you have not been employed by the 21 MPAA this year at all? 22 A. Cinea, my company, all the contracts 23 were with my company. Not with me personally. 24 Q. Have you ever been employed by any 25 of the plaintiffs in this lawsuit, at any time? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 51 1 Schumann 2 A. I have not. 3 Q. The conversations that you had -- 4 MR. GOLD: Before you ask a 5 question, off the record. 6 (Discussion off the record.) 7 Q. The conversations that you had, did 8 they indicate that you would be paid for your 9 testimony here today? 10 MR. GOLD: Conversations he had 11 with who? 12 MR. GARBUS: With anybody at the 13 MPAA. 14 A. Not with anyone at the MPAA, no. 15 Q. With who? 16 MR. GOLD: Objection to the form 17 of the question. 18 Q. Did anybody tell you you were going 19 to be paid for coming here to testify today? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Is that the Proskauer law firm? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Were you paid also for preparing the 24 affidavits or taking the time to do the affidavits? 25 A. I was reimbursed for my time, yes. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 52 1 Schumann 2 Q. You said you reviewed the documents 3 which are Exhibits B and C, amongst others, and you 4 were asked to review those by the MPAA; is that 5 correct? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Did you then furnish them with a 8 report? 9 A. I did. 10 Q. When did you furnish them with that 11 report? 12 A. It would have been, I guess, 13 mid-December. 14 Q. How many pages is that report? 15 A. I don't remember the exact amount. 16 Fifty to one hundred pages. 17 RQ MR. GARBUS: May I have a copy of 18 that report, Mr. Gold? 19 MR. GOLD: I will take that under 20 advisement. I think that is work product 21 privilege. 22 Q. Have you ever been retained by 23 Proskauer, the law firm? 24 A. Can you -- 25 Q. Is there a letter of agreement or INTERIM COURT REPORTING 53 1 Schumann 2 any understanding between you and Proskauer that 3 you are going to do any work for Proskauer? 4 MR. GOLD: You are asking if there 5 is a letter or oral agreement? 6 MR. GARBUS: Yes. 7 Q. Related to? 8 A. Related to this case? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Is it an oral agreement or a written 12 retainer? 13 A. There is an oral agreement. 14 Q. When were you retained by Proskauer? 15 A. I don't remember if it was late 16 December or early January. I think it was early 17 January. 18 Q. Were you retained by Proskauer after 19 your relationship with the MPAA ended? 20 A. I was. 21 Q. Were you retained by Proskauer to 22 specifically help them out on this project? 23 Namely -- 24 A. I was, yes. 25 Q. Have you ever done any other work INTERIM COURT REPORTING 54 1 Schumann 2 for Proskauer? 3 A. Yes, I have. 4 Q. When was that? 5 A. The last three weeks, I guess. 6 Q. On a different matter? 7 A. On a different matter, that's 8 correct. 9 Q. The DVD/CCA matter or something 10 entirely different? 11 A. Something entirely different. 12 Q. With respect to the MPAA, after 13 January 14th, did you have any conversations with 14 them concerning this matter? 15 MR. GOLD: Yes or no? 16 A. Any material conversations? 17 Q. Any conversations, after 18 January 14th. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. With whom? 21 A. Would have been with Mark Litvack. 22 Q. Did you also have conversations with 23 the MPAA after January 14th with respect to helping 24 them or being retained by them in another matter? 25 A. No. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 55 1 Schumann 2 Q. Have you ever previously testified 3 for either the MPAA or Proskauer? 4 A. I have not. 5 Q. Have you ever been deposed before? 6 A. I have not. 7 Q. The report that you originally 8 furnished to the MPAA, did a copy of that go to 9 Proskauer? 10 A. I have no knowledge. 11 Q. You just sent it on to the MPAA? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. Who did you send it on to? 14 A. Mark Litvack. 15 Q. Is there any other correspondence 16 exchanged between you and the MPAA prior to the 17 time that they ended their employment of you? By 18 "you," of course, I am referring to you and your 19 company. 20 MR. GOLD: I am going to object to 21 that. It misstates the witness' prior 22 testimony. 23 MR. GARBUS: Can I have the 24 question read again. 25 (Record read.) INTERIM COURT REPORTING 56 1 Schumann 2 BY MR. GARBUS: 3 Q. Did you ever exchange any 4 correspondence, other than this report, with the 5 MPAA during the course of your employment with 6 them? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did they send letters back to you? 9 A. Not that I recall. They did send a 10 check, though. 11 Q. Do you have copies of any of the 12 letters you sent to them today with you? 13 A. Not with me, no. 14 Q. How much such letters were there? 15 A. I believe there was only one. 16 Q. Was that the letter just enclosing 17 the report? 18 A. And a separate one that enclosed the 19 invoice. 20 Q. In addition to physical letters, is 21 there any e-mail correspondence between you and the 22 MPAA, in November, December, and January? 23 A. No. 24 MR. GARBUS: For the purposes of 25 this deposition, any time I say INTERIM COURT REPORTING 57 1 Schumann 2 "letters," it will include e-mails, as 3 well. 4 MR. GOLD: It would probably be 5 better if you use all the words. It's 6 not that hard. 7 Q. Did you send to the MPAA any of the 8 logs that you had concerning DeCSS? 9 MR. GOLD: Yes or no? 10 A. Did I send to the MPAA any of the 11 logs? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did you download any materials in 15 addition to that which was sent to you by the MPAA 16 from either of these websites prior to 17 January 14th? 18 A. How do you describe "download"? 19 Q. Take it off the machine and print 20 it. 21 A. I may have. 22 Q. Would that be back in your office? 23 A. It's possible, but I probably would 24 have thrown it away at the time. 25 Q. Do you have a file in your office on INTERIM COURT REPORTING 58 1 Schumann 2 this matter concerning the terms of your employment 3 with the MPAA? 4 MR. GOLD: Which is this matter? 5 You mean the one in 1999 or -- is that 6 the one you are talking about? 7 MR. GARBUS: No. 8 Q. November and December you were 9 employed with the MPAA. Do you have a file of that 10 in your office? 11 A. I have a file of that matter. Not 12 relating to the agreement. 13 RL Q. What else is there in the file, 14 other than the documents you have previously 15 mentioned? 16 DI MR. GOLD: I am going to object to 17 that. Attorney-client privilege. 18 MR. GARBUS: We are talking about 19 now when he was working for the MPAA, 20 November and December. 21 MR. GOLD: Of 1999. 22 MR. GARBUS: Yes. 23 Q. You have a separate file maintained 24 in your office after you were retained by 25 Proskauer? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 59 1 Schumann 2 A. I do have a separate file for that, 3 yes. 4 MR. GARBUS: It occurs to me, 5 Mr. Gold, that you just might have an 6 objection if I ask for that file. 7 MR. GOLD: I think I would. 8 Although you might have been so amazingly 9 clever I wouldn't have recognized it. I 10 gave him a compliment and I think it 11 deserves to be on the record. 12 BY MR. GARBUS: 13 Q. How many people work with Cinea? 14 A. There are currently two. 15 Q. It is you and? 16 A. A gentleman, David Degrooth, an 17 employee of mine. 18 Q. What is his background? 19 A. He is an engineer. 20 Q. How long has that company been in 21 existence? 22 A. Since June of 1999. 23 Q. You mentioned before that you had a 24 colleague involved with you when you reviewed the 25 downloaded material. Do you recall? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 60 1 Schumann 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did that colleague then work for the 4 company? 5 A. Yes. He is one of my partners. 6 Q. Is he still a partner in the 7 company? 8 A. He is still a minority partner, yes. 9 Q. Does he still work with the company? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did he then work for the company? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What is his background? 14 A. He is an IT professional. 15 Q. What does that mean? 16 A. He has a software background. 17 Q. Are any of the three of you 18 cryptographers? 19 A. No, we are not. 20 Q. Do any of the three of you have a 21 degree in cryptography? 22 A. We do not. 23 Q. What is your minority partner's 24 education? 25 A. I believe he has a master's in INTERIM COURT REPORTING 61 1 Schumann 2 business administration. 3 Q. And his bachelor's is in? 4 A. I think it is in computer science, 5 but I don't know. 6 Q. Prior to the time that you sent the 7 report to the MPAA, did you do a draft of the 8 report? 9 A. I'm sure I would have done an 10 internal draft. 11 Q. Do you have copies of that internal 12 draft? 13 A. I doubt it. I typically remove 14 earlier drafts. 15 Q. Wouldn't it be on your computer? 16 A. It might be, but I tend to clean up, 17 sometimes. 18 Q. With respect to the report that the 19 MPAA got from you, had they seen a draft of the 20 report prior to the time you gave them the final 21 report? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Had you had any discussions with 24 anyone at the MPAA, including Mr. Litvack, about 25 the nature of the report prior to the time they saw INTERIM COURT REPORTING 62 1 Schumann 2 it? 3 MR. GOLD: Yes or no? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. With who was that conversation? 6 A. Mr. Litvack. 7 Q. When was that conversation? 8 A. It would have been, I think, early 9 December. 10 Q. What did Mr. Litvack say to you? 11 A. I don't remember the exact nature, 12 but let me clarify my previous answer. Okay? 13 Q. Go ahead. 14 A. I believe -- I have to check my 15 records. I believe we did an interim report to the 16 MPAA, a short interim report, and this conversation 17 would have been around that interim report. 18 Q. The interim report was a written 19 report? 20 A. I believe it was. 21 Q. In addition to the interim report 22 and the final report, were there any oral reports? 23 A. There were, I believe, several phone 24 conversations, but I don't particularly remember 25 any, I guess, meaningful revelations in those that INTERIM COURT REPORTING 63 1 Schumann 2 were not in the written reports. 3 Q. All those conversations were with 4 Mr. Litvack? 5 A. That's correct. Prior to the 6 report. 7 Q. Did you make memos of any of those 8 conversations? 9 A. I certainly didn't make any memos. 10 I may have made a report -- not a report. Some 11 notes. 12 Q. When for the first time did you 13 learn that Proskauer were the lawyers for the MPAA 14 or any of the movie studios? 15 A. It would have been when I was 16 retained by them in late December or early January. 17 Q. Since you have been retained by 18 them, have you spoken to any other third parties to 19 see if DeCSS has been used to decrypt DVDs? 20 MR. GOLD: I think that by "third 21 parties" Marty means people not at any of 22 the plaintiffs and not at MPAA, and not 23 at Proskauer. 24 A. Is that true? 25 MR. GOLD: Is that true? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 64 1 Schumann 2 MR. GARBUS: Yes. 3 A. Have I been retained by them? Is 4 that your question? 5 MR. GOLD: No. He asked, have you 6 spoken with such third parties. 7 You are talking about matters 8 relevant to this lawsuit? 9 MR. GARBUS: Yes. 10 A. Not to any material respect, no. 11 Q. Have you made any investigation, 12 since you have been retained by Proskauer, to 13 determine if DeCSS is being used by anyone to 14 decrypt DVDs? 15 A. You mean am I going out looking for 16 information? 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. No, but I have seen press reports 19 that it is being done. 20 Q. Which press reports are you 21 referring to? 22 A. I believe there is a Toronto Star 23 article where a reporter describes essentially 24 exactly how to do what DeCSS -- what is described 25 by the plaintiffs. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 65 1 Schumann 2 Q. What is the date of that article? 3 A. It was recent. Within, I guess, the 4 last two weeks. 5 Q. Do you have a copy of it? 6 A. I believe I do in my files. 7 Q. Can you give it to me? 8 MR. GOLD: Yes. You can probably 9 get it from the system, I guess. 10 Q. Other than the Toronto article, 11 since the day you were retained by Proskauer, have 12 you learned whether anyone is using DeCSS to 13 decrypt DVDs? 14 A. I mean the affidavits, again, speak 15 to it. 16 Q. Other than the affidavits, you have 17 no information? Is there one person named in your 18 affidavit who, to your knowledge, is using -- 19 A. In my affidavits? 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. No. 22 Q. The affidavits don't mention 23 anyone -- your last affidavit is dated -- 24 A. Not my affidavits. The affidavits 25 provided by yourself. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 66 1 Schumann 2 Q. So the only information you have, 3 then, about the use of DeCSS with respect to DVDs 4 is the information that you have seen from the 5 affidavits we have submitted? 6 MR. GOLD: I am going to say that 7 that is subject to the attorney-client 8 and work product privileges. 9 A. Now, are you -- 10 MR. GOLD: That's it. Wait for 11 the next question. 12 MR. GARBUS: Can I hear the 13 question back? 14 (Record read.) 15 MR. GOLD: If you want to ask him 16 a question other than conversations that 17 would be protected, you can. 18 Q. Other than conversations that you 19 have had with Proskauer or any of their clients, 20 and the reference that you just made to the Toronto 21 Star, have you ever heard of anyone or know the 22 name of anyone who has used DeCSS to download a DVD 23 and watch a DVD? 24 A. I have certainly seen much, I guess, 25 ancillary evidence of it occurring. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 67 1 Schumann 2 Q. Specific evidence. 3 MR. GOLD: I am going to object to 4 the form of the question. 5 Q. When you say ancillary -- 6 MR. GOLD: If you want to ask the 7 witness what evidence he has seen, ask 8 him that. 9 Q. What ancillary evidence have you 10 seen? 11 A. A variety of websites that describe 12 copy and share your movies. 13 Q. Do you know if anyone has acted on 14 those websites, what is said in the websites, 15 mainly copy and share your movies? 16 A. I have no personal knowledge. 17 RL Q. As of today, you have no personal 18 knowledge of whether or not anyone has ever shared 19 a movie by using DeCSS to decrypt a DVD? All you 20 know is that the websites tell people to do it? 21 DI MR. GOLD: The witness' answers 22 stand for themselves. 23 Q. Is that right? 24 MR. GOLD: I have already taken 25 objection to a part of this question, so INTERIM COURT REPORTING 68 1 Schumann 2 I am going to object to this question, 3 but you have all of the information at 4 the time that you ask direct questions. 5 Q. Have you ever seen a movie that had 6 been on DVD on the internet? 7 A. Have I ever seen a movie that had 8 been on DVD on the internet? 9 Q. Yes. 10 MR. GOLD: By "seen," I think he 11 means watched. Is that what you mean? 12 MR. GARBUS: Yes. 13 A. Have I ever watched one off the 14 internet? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. No. 17 Q. Do you know of anyone who has? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Who? 20 A. I know of a cousin of mine. 21 Q. Do you know how it got on the 22 internet? 23 A. I do not. 24 Q. Do you know if it came from DeCSS? 25 A. In that particular case, it almost INTERIM COURT REPORTING 69 1 Schumann 2 certainly did not come from DeCSS. 3 Q. So you don't know of one situation 4 as you sit here today, to the best of your 5 knowledge, where a movie was ever shown on the 6 internet that originally came from the use of 7 DeCSS; is that right? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. Has anyone ever told you that they 10 have ever seen a movie on the internet that came 11 from the use of DeCSS? 12 MR. GOLD: This would be other 13 than conversations with your counsel or 14 with the plaintiffs. 15 A. No. 16 MR. GARBUS: Off the record. 17 (Discussion off the record.) 18 MR. GOLD: Marty and I have just 19 agreed that none of us is going to object 20 to two people taking parts of a 21 deposition when the person taking the 22 majority of it has to leave for whatever 23 important purpose he has. 24 EXAMINATION BY 25 MR. HERNSTADT: INTERIM COURT REPORTING 70 1 Schumann 2 Q. I am Ed Hernstadt. I will be the 3 lawyer on the other side of the table for the next 4 45 minutes or so. 5 Did you review any documents in 6 preparation for this deposition? 7 A. I did. 8 Q. What did you review? 9 A. I reviewed the affidavits provided 10 by the defendants, as well as my own affidavits. 11 Q. Did you read all of them or just 12 some of them? 13 A. I read most of them. 14 Q. You are currently employed by 15 Proskauer? 16 A. Define "employed." 17 Q. Do you have some kind of an 18 agreement -- is it you or your company? 19 A. My company. 20 Q. Cinea has some kind of agreement 21 with Proskauer to provide your services? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. What are the terms of that 24 agreement? 25 A. I am reimbursed for my time. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 71 1 Schumann 2 Q. On an hourly basis? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. You said that you started doing work 5 unrelated to this case for Proskauer. Is that 6 subject to a second agreement? 7 A. Yes, it is. 8 Q. I am only interested in the 9 agreement that has to do with this case. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Although, I do want to ask you one 12 question about this new case. Is it a DVD case? 13 A. It is not a DVD case per se, no. 14 Q. Does it implicate copying or piracy? 15 A. It might, yes. 16 Q. When you worked for MPAA, that was 17 also through your company Cinea? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. You personally have never had a 20 relationship with the MPAA? 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. And you never have had a 23 relationship with any of the plaintiffs in this 24 matter? 25 A. Me personally, that's correct. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 72 1 Schumann 2 Q. And you never have had a 3 relationship with Proskauer? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. And Proskauer, are they representing 6 you today, you personally? 7 A. (No response.) 8 Q. That is not a technical question. I 9 mean have you hired the Proskauer firm to be your 10 lawyers for the purposes of being your lawyers? 11 A. Separate from their hiring me as an 12 expert witness? 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. No. 15 Q. Can you tell me the terms of the 16 agreement that exists between Cinea and Proskauer? 17 A. Yes. Cinea is reimbursed at the 18 rate of $325 per hour for my time, plus reasonable 19 expenses. 20 Q. What was Cinea hired to do? 21 A. Cinea was hired to provide factual 22 evidence to the best of our ability. 23 Q. Factual evidence about what? 24 A. About what we were asked questions 25 about. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 73 1 Schumann 2 Q. Tell me to help me out. 3 A. Effectively, about the two -- 4 essentially around the essence of the two 5 affidavits that have been filed under my name or 6 that I have filed, I guess. I don't know what the 7 terminology is. I'm sure there is a legal term. I 8 don't know. 9 Q. Specifically looking at Exhibit A, 10 it's the three items in Paragraph 1 of your 11 Declaration. 12 A. The first Declaration? 13 Q. Yes, the first Declaration. 14 A. Okay. My resume. 15 Q. No. Paragraph 1 of the Declaration. 16 A. I'm sorry. Paragraph 1 of the 17 Declaration. Yes. 18 MR. HERNSTADT: Let's mark this as 19 Defendant's Exhibit 2. 20 (Defendants' Exhibit 2, Supplemental 21 Declaration of Robert Schumann, dated 22 April 3rd, marked for identification, as of 23 this date.) 24 MR. HERNSTADT: This is the 25 Supplemental Declaration of Robert INTERIM COURT REPORTING 74 1 Schumann 2 Schumann, dated April 3rd. 3 BY MR. HERNSTADT: 4 Q. These are the only two declarations 5 that you have done in this case; is that correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Turning to Paragraph 1 of the 8 Supplemental Declaration, you list two things. The 9 technical aspects of hyperlinks on the internet and 10 the particular hyperlinks presented on the website 11 of 2600. 12 Taken together, those are the areas 13 that you were hired to provide Proskauer with 14 expert information about; is that correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. GOLD: The document says that. 17 THE WITNESS: Work product. 18 Q. I'm sorry? 19 A. This is the result of the 20 discussions. 21 MR. GOLD: The sentence says: 22 "In this Declaration I focus particularly 23 on the issues of linking on the internet, 24 including --" and he mentions two of a 25 group of issues that he is looking into INTERIM COURT REPORTING 75 1 Schumann 2 and then, of course, there is the 3 original agreement where he says what he 4 is looking into. 5 MR. HERNSTADT: In the first 6 Declaration? 7 MR. GOLD: In the first 8 Declaration. 9 MR. HERNSTADT: That's what I 10 said. 11 Q. Taken together, the two 12 declarations, the areas laid out in Paragraph 1 of 13 the first Declaration and the second Declaration, 14 does that define the scope of the work that you 15 were hired to perform services? 16 MR. GOLD: You mean define it at 17 the beginning or define it at the end? 18 MR. HERNSTADT: In Paragraph 1 of 19 the first Declaration, there is sub A, 20 sub B, and sub C, which says that this is 21 what in particular he has focused on in 22 that Declaration. 23 In the Supplemental Declaration 24 Paragraph 1, sub A and sub B, he says 25 he is focusing on two particular areas. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 76 1 Schumann 2 Q. My question is: Are those areas the 3 areas for which you were hired to provide expert 4 fact testimony or expert fact information for 5 Proskauer? 6 A. I was not hired for a particular 7 area, I guess. I mean there was no -- there was no 8 agreement up front that I would testify in these 9 two particular areas to provide information. 10 Q. What I am trying to get at is what 11 were you hired to give them? 12 A. I was hired to provide my 13 professional opinion and expertise in this case. 14 Q. On any aspect of this case or on 15 particular aspects of this case? 16 MR. GOLD: What the witness said 17 was that he was going to deal -- he 18 just -- this is the third or fourth time. 19 MR. HERNSTADT: He is going back 20 and forth. 21 MR. GOLD: No. You are. 22 MR. HERNSTADT: Mr. Gold, -- 23 MR. GOLD: I object to the form of 24 the question. 25 MR. HERNSTADT: Go ahead. You can INTERIM COURT REPORTING 77 1 Schumann 2 answer it. 3 MR. GOLD: Do you remember the 4 question? 5 THE WITNESS: Can you please read 6 back the question? 7 (Record read.) 8 A. I presume they will only ask me 9 questions on particular aspects of this case. 10 Q. What are the particular aspects of 11 the case? 12 A. Two examples are embodied in the 13 Supplement in the Declaration. 14 Q. Can you take a look at the first 15 Declaration, if you would. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. In 1B you say that you are going to 18 focus on historical developments within the Linux 19 community showing that DeCSS is not a program 20 designed as a part of the development of the Linux 21 compatible DVD player. 22 A. Correct. 23 MR. GOLD: It says that he did 24 focus on it. 25 MR. HERNSTADT: It says what it INTERIM COURT REPORTING 78 1 Schumann 2 says. 3 MR. GOLD: I know, but you keep on 4 asking -- let me just read it right and I 5 won't say anything. 6 MR. HERNSTADT: Whatever. 7 Q. I take it the basis for the 8 information contained in the Declaration were the 9 logs that were sent to you by the MPAA; is that 10 correct? 11 A. Relative to the historical 12 developments -- 13 MR. GOLD: You can ask what you 14 want to ask, but you can't interrupt the 15 witness. 16 MR. HERNSTADT: Please do not 17 interrupt my deposition. 18 MR. GOLD: Not if you are going to 19 interrupt the witness. I am telling you 20 clearly, not if you are going to 21 interrupt the witness. You cannot 22 interrupt the witness. 23 MR. HERNSTADT: Mr. Gold, let me 24 just continue. 25 MR. GOLD: You cannot interrupt INTERIM COURT REPORTING 79 1 Schumann 2 the witness. 3 MR. HERNSTADT: Read back the 4 question. 5 (Record read.) 6 MR. GOLD: Did you finish your 7 answer? 8 A. Within the Linux community. 9 Q. What did you do with those logs 10 after you sent the MPAA the report that you 11 described earlier to Mr. Garbus? 12 A. I filed them. 13 Q. So you possess those logs still? 14 A. I do. 15 Q. Do you possess all of them? In 16 other words, do you take photocopies of the 17 excerpts from those logs that are attached as 18 Exhibits A and B? 19 A. I did. 20 RQ MR. HERNSTADT: I call for 21 production of the entire logs in your file. 22 MR. GOLD: Taken under advisement. 23 Q. In Paragraph 1C, can you tell me 24 what the basis of -- excuse me. 25 You say in particular you have INTERIM COURT REPORTING 80 1 Schumann 2 focused on and then going down to C, "Defendants 3 claim that they are proliferating DeCSS as part of 4 a legitimate analysis of how the DeCSS algorithm 5 works." 6 Where do defendants claim what you 7 say they claim in 1C? 8 A. My recollection is that is based on 9 some of the claims in websites posting DeCSS. 10 Q. Which websites? 11 A. I can't remember off the top of my 12 head. I would have to -- 13 Q. We only represent Emanuel Goldstein. 14 That's the only defendant I am concerned about. 15 Was it on Emanuel Goldstein's website? 16 A. I believe it was, but I would have 17 to check that website or the records of that 18 website. 19 MR. GOLD: By the way, on the 20 documents you are asking for, it will be 21 faster if you keep a list of them, 22 because we are not going to get this 23 transcript for a while. 24 MR. HERNSTADT: I will give it to 25 you. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 81 1 Schumann 2 MR. GOLD: We won't wait for the 3 transcript if you give me a list. 4 MR. HERNSTADT: Absolutely. I 5 will send you a letter at the end of the 6 day. 7 MR. GOLD: Good. 8 Q. Do you have printouts of 9 Mr. Goldstein's website? 10 A. I believe I have printouts of some 11 of the pages. I believe they are attached even to 12 this, I presume. 13 Q. And so it is attached as an exhibit 14 to your Declaration? 15 A. I believe -- I mean I would have to 16 look, but I believe -- 17 Actually, I take that back. For 18 this Declaration it did not have any website 19 attachments. The Supplemental did. 20 MR. HERNSTADT: I would just call 21 for the production of any documents that 22 contain a claim by any of the defendants, 23 past or current, that they are 24 proliferating DeCSS as part of a 25 legitimate analysis of how the DeCSS INTERIM COURT REPORTING 82 1 Schumann 2 algorithm worked. 3 MR. GOLD: Are you including 4 affidavits and briefs that defendants 5 have filed? 6 MR. HERNSTADT: By definition, 7 because this Declaration was signed on 8 January 19th, whatever he had was at the 9 time he made this statement. 10 MR. GOLD: You are still on the 11 first? 12 MR. HERNSTADT: Yes. Still on the 13 first. 14 Q. You answered Mr. Garbus' question 15 earlier that the DeCSS served only one function, 16 which was to decrypt CSS protected cipher text and 17 copy and store the encrypted audio-visual data in 18 one or more computer files. 19 I am reading that from Paragraph 2 20 of your Declaration. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Does DeCSS also have the function of 23 permitting a consumer who has purchased a DVD to 24 evade the region coding? 25 A. No. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 83 1 Schumann 2 Q. Does DeCSS permit a consumer who has 3 purchased a DVD to fast-forward through sections of 4 a DVD that the manufacturer has prevented from 5 being fast-forwarded? 6 A. DeCSS itself? 7 Q. That's my question. 8 A. No. 9 Q. Does DeCSS enable someone to use 10 with some other program, like a DVD player, to skip 11 the region code? 12 A. I think it is irrelevant to that 13 problem. 14 Q. You think DeCSS is irrelevant to 15 that problem? 16 A. To the problem of evading region 17 code? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. You have reviewed some of the 21 declarations that the defendants have submitted? 22 A. Yes, I have. 23 Q. In a Declaration if there is a 24 statement that says that DeCSS permits you to evade 25 region coding, a region coding limitation, then INTERIM COURT REPORTING 84 1 Schumann 2 that statement is incorrect? 3 MR. GOLD: I object to the form. 4 Q. You can answer the question. 5 A. In my professional opinion, DeCSS is 6 irrelevant to evading the region coding, in your 7 terminology. 8 Q. Why is that? 9 A. Because region coding is not part of 10 the DeCSS specification. 11 Q. What is CSS? I will be a little 12 more specific. What is in the specification of 13 CSS? 14 A. To my understanding, CSS describes 15 an access control mechanism for the disk, an 16 encryption and decryption mechanism for the disk, 17 and a key management function. 18 Q. What do you base that understanding 19 on? 20 A. My experience in the DVD industry. 21 Q. Can you be more specific? What 22 experience? 23 A. I have six plus years now in -- 24 actually, DVD has only been around four years, but 25 I have been working in the field since the INTERIM COURT REPORTING 85 1 Schumann 2 beginning of DVD and have intimate knowledge of the 3 DVD specs. 4 Q. Have you ever reviewed the CSS 5 source code? 6 A. The CSS source code? I have not. 7 Q. Have you ever seen a CSS license? 8 A. I have not. 9 Q. Do you know what the terms of the 10 CSS license are? 11 A. Not as a factual matter, no. 12 Q. In your six years of working with 13 DVDs, you know the DVD specifications? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. How does that tell you what the CSS 16 does and how CSS works? 17 A. I know -- I know what the DVD 18 specification does and I know what the -- from 19 working in the industry, what CSS adds technically 20 to DVD, but I do not know the details of the CSS 21 specification. 22 Q. Could you then describe the 23 securities system or security devices, however you 24 would phrase that, that protect the information on 25 a DVD? What are these different systems or INTERIM COURT REPORTING 86 1 Schumann 2 devices -- 3 A. Can you define "protect"? 4 Q. -- that prevent consumers from 5 getting at the copyrighted material on a DVD? 6 A. In what way? You describe -- 7 Q. Let's start with accessing. The two 8 aspects I am looking at are accessing the material 9 and playing the material. 10 A. Can you please break the question 11 into -- are you including both region coding and 12 copy control? 13 Q. I want to know all the different 14 things that are on a DVD that protect, access, or 15 protect playing or protect copying, and I use 16 copying and accessing together. You have to get 17 access to copy. 18 A. There are, to my knowledge, two 19 mechanisms. There is a mechanism called region 20 control or region codes, which is part of the DVD 21 specification, and there is the CSS system itself. 22 Q. Have you tried to use DeCSS to see 23 if it has any effect on region coding? 24 A. I have absolutely no need to do 25 that. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 87 1 Schumann 2 Q. Why not? 3 A. Because I know for a fact that it 4 has no impact on region coding. 5 Q. How do you know that? 6 A. Because I have in the past had 7 intimate and detailed knowledge of how region 8 coding is implemented in DVDs and that is 9 completely embodied within the DVD specification 10 and, therefore, CSS or DeCSS would have no impact 11 on that. 12 Q. I am asking about DeCSS, not CSS. 13 A. To my knowledge, DeCSS would have no 14 impact on that either. 15 Q. Tell me, what does DeCSS do? 16 A. DeCSS, as described in my 17 Declaration, DeCSS performs three -- has three 18 parts to it, if you will. It authorizes the DVD 19 drive to release the CSS protected information, it 20 allows its user, through user interface, to select 21 one or more files from the DVD to copy. 22 Both select what to copy and also 23 where to copy those data files, and that can be on 24 any, I guess, connected drive or network connection 25 that is attached to their computer in the standard INTERIM COURT REPORTING 88 1 Schumann 2 Windows file system. And then after the user 3 indicates what files they would like to decipher 4 and store, it then proceeds to read -- decrypt the 5 contents of those files and store them where 6 indicated by the user. 7 Q. And you indicated that you undertook 8 that exercise; is that correct? 9 A. I did run the DeCSS, yes. 10 Q. What movie did you use? 11 A. I don't recall. It may have been, I 12 think, The Matrix came out around then. 13 Q. Do you know how big the movie was, 14 how many gigabytes? 15 A. It was 4 or 6 gigabytes. It was 16 probably 4 gigabytes. 17 Q. Do you have a record of what movie 18 you viewed? 19 A. I doubt I kept a detailed written 20 record of it. 21 Q. You actually don't know what movie 22 it was or how big it was? 23 A. Not exactly, no. 24 Q. Did you leave the deciphered or 25 decrypted files on your hard drive? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 89 1 Schumann 2 A. I doubt I did. I may have. 3 Q. How big is your hard drive? 4 A. I think the machine that ran on was, 5 I don't know, 10, 12 gigabytes. 6 Q. Did you have to clear files out in 7 order to make room to store the movie? 8 A. No. 9 Q. You had between 4 and 6 open 10 gigabytes of space on your hard drive? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You didn't play it, so you don't 13 know if it would actually play? 14 A. I played it from the DVD. 15 Q. But you didn't play it from the 16 stored files; is that correct? 17 A. I did not. 18 Q. You don't know if that would 19 actually play or not? 20 A. There is no -- there is no reason 21 why the resulted decrypted files will not play. 22 Q. But you don't know one way or the 23 other; correct? 24 MR. GOLD: He just testified that 25 he did. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 90 1 Schumann 2 A. I know that those files are exactly 3 as playable as when they were on the DVD, except 4 they are in decrypted form. 5 Q. How do you know they are decrypted? 6 A. What? 7 Q. How do you know they are decrypted? 8 You didn't test it; right? 9 A. I looked at some of the structures 10 in the file. 11 Q. How did that tell you that it was 12 decrypted? 13 A. DVD has a very specific structure 14 within it and the encryption destroys that 15 structure, so you can look at the structure. 16 Q. Your assumption is that it would 17 play, but you didn't actually view it? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. Fair enough. In Paragraph 4 20 of your Declaration you say that, in the very last 21 sentence, "The stored unencrypted movie file and 22 then be further copied, electronically transmitted, 23 digitally altered, or displayed." 24 Can you explain how it can be 25 further copied? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 91 1 Schumann 2 A. Certainly. I can go in Windows. As 3 an example, I can move it from one hard drive to 4 another or to a computer that is attached on the 5 network, using an Explorer. 6 Q. Within a network, let's take for a 7 moment in your office, you can move it from one 8 computer to another? 9 A. Within -- yeah, within the office or 10 if I was on a university campus, I can move it from 11 one computer to another. 12 Q. Assuming that the other computer had 13 enough space on the hard drive? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. How else would you copy it? 16 A. You could copy it to tape, you could 17 copy it to CDs. 18 Q. In Paragraph 5 you say there are 19 products available at a reasonable cost. Could you 20 tell me specifically what those products are? 21 A. I would have to look at the 22 attachments. I believe there were attachments that 23 showed specific product. Not a separate exhibit. 24 There was a -- I mean there is on-stream, there are 25 tape drives, there are a variety of tape drives. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 92 1 Schumann 2 Q. What tape drives are there? 3 MR. GOLD: Had you finished your 4 answer to the last question? 5 THE WITNESS: Can you read back 6 the question and my answer. 7 (Record read.) 8 THE WITNESS: What you are saying 9 is, "What tape drives are there?" is a 10 separate question? 11 MR. GOLD: You had finished the 12 prior question? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 MR. GOLD: Go ahead. 15 A. There is certainly the on-stream and 16 at the time I don't recall, but at the time we 17 looked on the internet and found a variety of tape 18 drives you could find -- like go into buy.com and 19 buying the drives and the tapes. 20 Q. Do you have a record of that 21 research? 22 A. I believe I do, yes. 23 RQ MR. HERNSTADT: I call for the 24 production of that. 25 Q. I take it that this is all in the INTERIM COURT REPORTING 93 1 Schumann 2 MPAA file that you say that you maintained? 3 A. This, I assume, would be in my 4 Proskauer file. 5 Q. When you say a tape drive for less 6 than $300, for example, the on-stream tape drive? 7 A. That's what was referenced here. I 8 would have to look at the details, but there were 9 several different mechanisms that were relatively 10 cost effective. 11 Q. How big are these high capacity 12 digital tape drives? 13 A. I have to look at the details, but 14 some of them go up to 15 or 20 gigabytes. 15 Q. Do they have the same quality as a 16 DVD? 17 A. Yes. Absolutely. 18 Q. Do they have the same functionality 19 as a DVD? 20 A. In what sense? 21 Q. Can you play a movie on a tape the 22 same way that you can play a movie on a DVD? 23 A. Depends on the playback software, 24 but you would lose some functionality playing back 25 directly from a tape. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 94 1 Schumann 2 Q. Is there another way to play it 3 back, other than directly from a tape? 4 A. You can copy it to a hard drive and 5 then play it from your hard drive. 6 Q. So this is all for playing on a 7 computer? 8 A. I would presume, yes. 9 Q. You also mentioned writable DVD. 10 How much are DVD burners? 11 A. It depends on the DVD burner. 12 Q. Can you give me a range, please? 13 A. I believe DVD read-write drives, and 14 don't hold me to the exact acronym. There are 15 three or four technologies, as one of the 16 affidavits that you presented accurately describes, 17 but there is one of them that I believe is for sale 18 now, for the drives, $400 or $500. 19 Q. Can you tell me which one that is? 20 A. I think it is DVD-RW, but I would 21 have to look. 22 Q. What company or manufacturer sells a 23 DVD burner for $400 or $500? 24 A. I believe there are several -- I 25 know there are several manufacturers. MEI, INTERIM COURT REPORTING 95 1 Schumann 2 otherwise known as Panasonic. I believe Pioneer 3 has a competing, and I think Sony has another one. 4 Phillips, also, has the technology. Again, I don't 5 know who is behind exactly which technology. There 6 are three or four. 7 Q. They are all available for $400 or 8 $500? 9 A. I don't believe they are all 10 available. 11 Q. Which is available for $400 or $500? 12 A. Again, I don't know exactly without 13 looking. 14 Q. Did you look this up at one point? 15 A. Yes, I have occasionally looked at 16 the prices. 17 Q. Do you have a record of this? 18 A. I doubt I would have a detailed 19 record. I may have looked at DVD read-write 20 drives. When I did the affidavit, I would have 21 looked and found at least one. 22 Q. Do you know how much the media cost? 23 A. For? 24 Q. DVD read-write. 25 A. I'm sure that depends on the INTERIM COURT REPORTING 96 1 Schumann 2 technology. 3 Q. Does that mean you know -- 4 A. No, I don't know. Off the top of my 5 head, I do not know the exact details. 6 Q. Do you know, when you say there are 7 several competing technologies, is there a single 8 standard yet for DVD burners? 9 A. No, there is not a single standard. 10 Q. Do you know when there will be or if 11 there will be? 12 A. I would imagine there will be a 13 dominant standard that will emerge. 14 Q. I'm not asking you to speculate or 15 guess. If this is beyond your area of expertise, 16 just say so? 17 A. It is likely that a dominant 18 standard will emerge. 19 Q. Do you know when? 20 A. Somebody will win. I have no idea 21 when. 22 Q. So that means that if you burn a DVD 23 on, let's say a Panasonic burner, it won't play in 24 a Phillips player; is that correct? 25 A. That's not a given. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 97 1 Schumann 2 Q. Does it depend on what technology 3 they use? 4 A. It depends on what technology the 5 DVD drive can read. 6 Q. So if the DVD drive is built to read 7 the technology of the particular burner that that 8 same company makes -- 9 A. Then you would be able to read that 10 disk. It's really more the disk than the drive on 11 the burner. 12 Q. How would you distribute a DVD movie 13 on the internet? 14 A. In a variety of ways. There are a 15 variety of ways. 16 Q. Go ahead, please. 17 A. You could distribute it in its 18 native DVD form. In other words, essentially the 19 decrypted output of DeCSS could then be made 20 available via a large variety of mechanisms. 21 Anything from to friends and the extreme pace, 22 sending an e-mail, but you would put it on your web 23 page and your friends or whoever can come get it. 24 Or the much more likely feature scenario, you could 25 make it available with new tools coming out now. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 98 1 Schumann 2 The Gnutella and Napster, Freenet, 3 I-Search, and -- I think it is called I-Search -- 4 and a variety of others. There is a whole series 5 of these coming available now. More likely you 6 would take the decrypted content in order to make 7 it smaller to make it easier for people with lower 8 bandwidths to acquire the contents. 9 You might, for instance, use the 10 recently released DivX software to further compress 11 the file and allow even faster access to the 12 content. 13 Q. If you were to e-mail it to a 14 friend, a DVD movie that was, let's say, 6 15 gigabyte, how long would that take? 16 A. It depends where the friend is and 17 what the e-mail system is. 18 Q. What kind of system do you have? 19 A. In my office I have access to an 20 ISDN link to the network. 21 Q. What is that? Is that a T1? Is 22 that a T3? 23 A. No. 128 kilobit per seconds. 24 Q. How long would it take you to 25 e-mail? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 99 1 Schumann 2 A. I would have to do the math and 3 e-mail is controlled also by the speed of the 4 intermediate server. It would take several hours 5 at least. 6 Q. Did you review John Gillmore's 7 affidavit estimating the length of time it would 8 take to transmit a movie using a 56K modem and then 9 a T1 line? 10 A. I recall seeing his affidavit. I 11 would have to see exact text to comment on the 12 details of it. 13 Q. You said tools like Gnutella, 14 Napster, Freenet, I-Search. What kind of tools are 15 they? 16 A. They are essentially file-sharing 17 tools that have been recently described accurately, 18 I think, as consumer-to-consumer file sharing 19 tools. 20 Q. Using those tools, the consumer 21 still has to download the movie; is that correct? 22 A. Download in what sense? 23 Q. In order to acquire a copy of it to 24 view. 25 A. Yes. They get a copy from whoever INTERIM COURT REPORTING 100 1 Schumann 2 is providing the copy, that's correct. 3 Q. So that doesn't save any time in 4 terms of downloading. It just gives you a place to 5 go to find it; is that correct? 6 A. That's correct. It has no impact on 7 the download speed. 8 Q. Are you aware of DeCSS being used in 9 conjunction with DivX? 10 A. With DivX? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. I believe I have seen some press 13 reports to that effect. 14 Q. Where have you seen that? 15 A. On the -- Toronto Star article, I 16 think. I would have to look in detail. And I know 17 I went to the DivX website and it described using 18 DeCSS in conjunction with DivX to share movies. 19 Q. There is no need to use DeCSS; is 20 there? 21 A. In what sense? 22 Q. There is other ways of getting the 23 movies so that you can compress it using DivX; 24 isn't that correct? 25 A. So it can compress it using DivX? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 101 1 Schumann 2 Q. Or to use with DivX. 3 A. Not that would give you the same 4 result, to my knowledge. 5 Q. Is it your understanding that all 6 the movies that are available using DivX have been 7 decrypted with DeCSS? 8 A. No. 9 Q. How do you explain those two sort of 10 seemingly contradictory understanding? 11 MR. GOLD: Objection as to form. 12 Do you understand the question? 13 THE WITNESS: I understand. 14 Q. Go ahead. 15 A. I guess I don't understand why you 16 think they are contradictory. Perhaps you can 17 clarify what you find contradictory with my answer. 18 Q. You said that not all the -- let's 19 call it a DivX movie. Do you understand that term? 20 A. A DivX compressed movie, yes. 21 That's fine. 22 Q. That not all those movies are made 23 using DeCSS. 24 A. I have no knowledge one way or 25 another. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 102 1 Schumann 2 Q. It is your opinion that you would 3 get a better quality DivX movie if you used DeCSS? 4 A. I believe I said that there is no 5 tool, to my knowledge, that would give you the 6 equivalent result of DeCSS. 7 Q. Could you explain what you mean by 8 that, equivalent result of DeCSS? 9 A. DeCSS gives you a perfect replica of 10 the sort content of the DVD, on the original DVD. 11 A perfect unencrypted, unprotected copy of the 12 source DVD and, to my knowledge, no other tools, 13 other than perhaps some Linux tools, built on DeCSS 14 or built on the source of DeCSS, equivalent 15 functions give you the same thing. 16 Q. Do you know if there are players 17 that will play those decrypted movies? 18 A. I have heard and seen reports that 19 there are some players. I have no personal 20 knowledge. 21 MR. HERNSTADT: Why don't we stop 22 now. 23 (Luncheon recess taken at 12:55 p.m.) 24 --o0o-- 25 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N INTERIM COURT REPORTING 103 1 Schumann 2 (Time noted: 2:05 p.m.) 3 R O B E R T W. S C H U M A N N, resumed and 4 testified as follows: 5 CONTINUED EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. GARBUS: 7 Q. Before you were talking about DVD 8 burners. Can you tell me what a DVD burner is used 9 for at the present time? 10 A. I'm sure I am not aware of all the 11 uses, but it is used for a variety of purposes. 12 Q. Go ahead and tell me what that 13 variety is. 14 A. Some of them have used it to make 15 DVDs, actual DVDs in the video sense. I am sure 16 they are used for large capacity storage devices. 17 Those are the primary purposes I am aware of. 18 Q. Do you know of any other purposes 19 that it can be used for in the future? Are those 20 primarily the purposes for which it was intended? 21 A. I don't think the DVD writers have 22 any particular intent. 23 Q. Have you ever burned a DVD? 24 A. Not directly. 25 Q. When you say not directly -- INTERIM COURT REPORTING 104 1 Schumann 2 A. I have caused them to be burned, but 3 I have not operated the machinery myself. 4 Q. What happened when you caused it to 5 be burned? 6 A. We were able to play the resultant 7 DVD in the DVD player. 8 Q. Did you see it? 9 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. Do you have notes of the quality of 11 which you saw? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you know how long the burning 14 took? 15 A. I don't know the exact period of 16 time. I think it was a standard writing. Standard 17 period, one to two hours. 18 Q. Do you know of any DVD that was 19 burned that was ever sold? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you have a disk concerning your 22 burning or having the DVD burned at your request? 23 A. I don't believe in my possession. 24 Q. Where is it? 25 A. That would be with my former INTERIM COURT REPORTING 105 1 Schumann 2 employer. 3 RQ MR. GARBUS: I ask that it be 4 produced. 5 MR. GOLD: Taken under advisement. 6 Q. You say you do know of a DVD that 7 was sold that was burned? 8 A. I believe -- I mean -- 9 Q. From your own personal knowledge. 10 A. I believe that it has occurred. 11 Q. No. From your own personal 12 knowledge. 13 A. Certainly no DVD that I caused to be 14 burned was sold. 15 Q. Do you know of any DVD particularly 16 that anybody caused to be burned was sold? 17 A. I believe I know of circumstances, 18 but I can't guarantee them. 19 Q. Give me the best of your 20 recollection. 21 A. I know, for example, that DVDs are 22 used on aircraft in very small quantities where it 23 is cost effective to burn them individually rather 24 than do a pressing. 25 Q. When you say on aircraft, what do INTERIM COURT REPORTING 106 1 Schumann 2 you mean by that? 3 A. On planes. You know, watching 4 movies -- playback on planes. 5 Q. I am talking now particularly about 6 movies that are being ripped off. 7 A. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't understand 8 that qualification earlier. 9 Q. With that qualification, can you 10 answer those questions? 11 A. With that qualification, I have no 12 specific knowledge. 13 Q. So you have no knowledge of any DVD 14 that was burned, that was allegedly ripped off, 15 ever sold? 16 A. Burned on an individual writer? 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. Personal knowledge, no. 19 Q. Burned on any kind of writer? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Since you have been employed by 22 Proskauer, have you had any conversations with the 23 MPAA about how many DVDs they believe were seen by 24 anybody as a result of DeCSS? 25 A. No. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 107 1 Schumann 2 Q. Have you had any conversation with 3 Universal concerning that? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Other than Time Warner, putting them 6 aside, have you had any conversations with the 7 other plaintiffs concerning that? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Have you ever seen any MPAA records 10 indicate that they know of a DeCSS being used to 11 gain access to a DVD, particular access? 12 A. Is this different than your earlier 13 question? 14 Q. Yes. Talking about records now 15 rather than people. 16 A. I believe before lunch I said that I 17 had no knowledge of any records of any shape from 18 the studios, relative to -- I guess pirated movies. 19 I don't remember the exact question, but I think we 20 have went over this. I apologize, but I don't want 21 to waste any of our time. 22 Q. Have you ever seen any records that 23 Proskauer has -- 24 A. I have not. 25 Q. -- concerning whether or not they INTERIM COURT REPORTING 108 1 Schumann 2 know of any particular case of DeCSS being used 3 with respect to DVDs? 4 A. I have not. 5 Q. Do you know if Proskauer or any of 6 the plaintiffs or the MPAA has retained any firm or 7 any third person to see the application or to 8 understand the application of DeCSS to DVDs? 9 A. I have no knowledge. 10 MR. GARBUS: Can I hear the last 11 question, please. 12 (Record read.) 13 BY MR. GARBUS: 14 Q. Do you know whether either Proskauer 15 or any of the plaintiffs had ever seen the DVD that 16 had been decrypted by DeCSS? 17 A. I have no knowledge. 18 Q. Have you ever seen any reports from 19 Proskauer or the MPAA or any of the plaintiffs 20 indicating whether or not they had ever seen the 21 DVD after the application of DeCSS? 22 A. You were referring to pirated DVDs 23 when you clarified? 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. I have no knowledge. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 109 1 Schumann 2 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether 3 anybody at the MPAA claims that there ever was a 4 pirated copy of a DVD sold, a copy that had been 5 enabled by the use of DeCSS? 6 A. I have no knowledge. 7 Q. Would your answer be the same with 8 respect to Proskauer and the seven plaintiffs in 9 this case, excluding Time Warner? 10 A. I believe so, yes. 11 Q. Read back the last question and 12 answer. 13 (Record read.) 14 Q. You mentioned the article in the 15 Toronto Star. That was back in May; was it? 16 A. I believe this was -- May of this 17 year? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. I believe so. I don't recall the 20 exact date. 21 Q. Do you recall the article says 22 that -- you stated before that the article says 23 that he used DeCSS to get access to a DVD; is that 24 right? 25 A. To remove the CSS encryption, yes. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 110 1 Schumann 2 Q. Do you recall anything else about 3 the article? Did it tell you if he was successful? 4 Did it tell you what the quality of the film was 5 that he saw? Did he see such a film? Did he tell 6 you anything about the problems that he had in 7 getting to the DVD? 8 A. If I generally recall, and I have to 9 look in detail, but I believe it described the 10 removal of CSS as fairly straightforward and then 11 he apparently had a playback system that needed 12 some more work. Because if I remember correctly, 13 he described some issues in the playback of the 14 content. 15 Q. Do you remember what those issues 16 were? 17 A. I don't remember in complete 18 specific detail, but I think there was some 19 audio/video syncing issues perhaps. 20 Q. Do you know if he ever got the audio 21 off the DVD? 22 MR. GOLD: Do you want to show him 23 a copy of the article since it speaks for 24 itself or do you want to play memory 25 games? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 111 1 Schumann 2 MR. GARBUS: Go ahead, 3 Mr. Schumann. 4 A. Did he ever get the audio -- 5 Q. -- off the DVD? 6 A. If he ran DeCSS and, in fact, copied 7 what is referred to as a VOB file and removed CSS, 8 then he did, in fact, remove the audio from the 9 DVD, as they are intertwined. 10 Q. Do you know if he did that? 11 A. I can only presume that he claimed 12 to have ran CSS and removed it. CSS does not 13 distinguish between the audio and the video. 14 Q. Do you recall what the quality was 15 of the audio and the visual? 16 MR. GOLD: You mean what the 17 article says about the Quality? 18 MR. GARBUS: Yes. 19 MR. GOLD: You don't want to show 20 him the article? 21 MR. GARBUS: No. 22 MR. GOLD: Do you remember that? 23 THE WITNESS: I believe it 24 referenced the quality of the playback 25 being poor, but in my professional INTERIM COURT REPORTING 112 1 Schumann 2 opinion, that has nothing to do with the 3 quality of the DeCSS. Only to do with 4 the playback environment. 5 Q. Have you ever seen the quality of a 6 DVD that has been accessed by DeCSS? 7 A. I'm sorry. I don't fully 8 understand. 9 Q. Have you ever seen the film that was 10 on the DVD that was accessed through the use of 11 DeCSS and have you ever observed its quality? 12 A. Are you saying have I ever seen a 13 playback after DeCSS to assess the result and 14 quality? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. I believe, as I stated earlier, I 17 have never seen, personally seen the playback after 18 DeCSS, but there is nothing in the DeCSS process 19 itself which would have any impact on the quality 20 of the resultant playback. 21 Q. Do you recall if the Toronto 22 reporter mentioned that he had lost the audio using 23 DivX? 24 A. I don't recall the specific details 25 of the pieces he did. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 113 1 Schumann 2 Q. Do you recall whether the article 3 talks about how long it took to -- 4 A. I believe he was frustrated with the 5 quality of the software he was using. 6 Q. When you say he was frustrated, can 7 you explain that further? 8 A. I believe he described that he 9 attempted one process that failed after some hour 10 period or something to that regard, and he had to 11 restart. 12 Q. Do you recall, when he restarted, 13 whether it worked or not? 14 A. I believe he succeeded to some 15 degree. 16 Q. When you say he succeeded to some 17 degree, do you know what degree he succeeded? 18 MR. GOLD: Do you want to show him 19 the article? 20 MR. GARBUS: No. 21 MR. GOLD: Do you recall? 22 THE WITNESS: It may have been a 23 subset of the original, but I believe 24 that was only on playback. 25 Q. Other than the article writer who INTERIM COURT REPORTING 114 1 Schumann 2 described the application of DeCSS, have you ever 3 spoken to anyone else at any time since November or 4 December who has used DeCSS for the purposes of 5 decrypting a DVD? 6 A. For the purposes of decrypting a 7 DVD? 8 Q. For the purposes of watching a DVD. 9 MR. GOLD: You mean a DVD that has 10 already been decrypted? I object to the 11 question. 12 Q. Do you understand the question? 13 MR. GARBUS: Read the question 14 back. 15 MR. GOLD: I don't understand the 16 question. 17 MR. GARBUS: Read the question. 18 (Record read.) 19 MR. GARBUS: Go ahead. 20 MR. GOLD: I think the question 21 is: Did you ever speak to anyone else 22 for the purpose of watching a DVD that 23 has been decrypted. If you know what 24 that means, you can answer. 25 A. Other than the plaintiffs? In that INTERIM COURT REPORTING 115 1 Schumann 2 group? 3 Q. Right. 4 A. I am not particularly aware of any, 5 no. 6 Q. But plaintiffs within the group 7 have, to your knowledge, viewed DVDs? 8 A. I have no knowledge. 9 DI MR. GOLD: I am going to object to 10 that on the basis of attorney-client and 11 work product. 12 MR. GARBUS: Do you want to define 13 the basis for this objection or would you 14 rather wait for the judge for that? Both 15 the attorney-client and the work product. 16 MR. GOLD: Sure. All work-product 17 objections held by the people he has been 18 designated as a witness for are 19 applicable to him in his testimony. 20 MR. GARBUS: I am not clear, 21 Mr. Gold. Are you representing the 22 witness at this deposition? 23 MR. GOLD: Yes. 24 BY MR. GARBUS: 25 Q. Did you retain Proskauer to INTERIM COURT REPORTING 116 1 Schumann 2 represent you at this deposition, Mr. Schumann? 3 A. Are you asking did I hire them to 4 represent me? 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did they volunteer to represent you? 8 A. I guess that is not entirely clear 9 to me. 10 Q. Do you know why they are here today 11 on your behalf? 12 A. I believe I, if I understand this 13 process correctly, I at some degree are here on 14 their behalf. 15 RL Q. You are Proskauer's witness? 16 DI MR. GOLD: He is not here as a legal 17 expert and so I am going to put an end to 18 this. If you want legal advice, see your 19 colleagues. They will be happy to help 20 you. 21 MR. GARBUS: I didn't ask him for 22 legal advice. 23 MR. GOLD: Yes, you did. You 24 asked him for legal conclusions and I am 25 going to put a stop to it. We let it go INTERIM COURT REPORTING 117 1 Schumann 2 for a while to see if we can divert your 3 attention to something relevant. We 4 haven't succeeded, so I have to object. 5 Q. Have you or the MPAA or any of the 6 plaintiffs, to your knowledge, gotten information 7 from any third parties, at any time, concerning the 8 quality of the movie that has been decrypted from a 9 DVD? 10 MR. GOLD: Answer that question 11 "yes" or "no." If you would, sir. 12 THE WITNESS: Can you read back 13 the question for me, please. 14 (Record read.) 15 MR. GOLD: If you have any 16 information, answer "yes." If you don't 17 know anything about that question, answer 18 "no." 19 A. Yes. 20 RL Q. What is that information? 21 DI MR. GOLD: I am going to object on 22 the basis of the work product privilege and 23 the attorney-client privilege. 24 Q. Did you obtain that information 25 prior to January 14th? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 118 1 Schumann 2 A. Can you read the original question 3 back again? 4 (Record read.) 5 A. The answer is "yes." 6 Q. Was that information ever contained 7 in a written report or a letter or any document? 8 MR. GOLD: That's a "yes" or "no." 9 A. That's actually "I don't know," 10 without checking detailed records. I don't know. 11 Q. In other words, records in your 12 file? 13 A. That's correct. 14 MR. GARBUS: Will you produce that 15 document if it exists, Mr. Gold? 16 MR. GOLD: No. I believe it is 17 subject to the work product privilege. 18 Q. From whom did you receive this 19 information prior to January 14th? 20 MR. GOLD: That's just a name. 21 A. I actually don't recall a detailed 22 name. It would have been from the development logs 23 or development records as previously discussed. 24 Q. So it was not from someone at the 25 MPAA? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 119 1 Schumann 2 A. No. 3 Q. Did you ever try to contact any of 4 the people whose names are set forth in Exhibits B 5 and C in those development logs? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did you ever try and determine for 8 yourself what the quality of a DVD is that is being 9 shown after it has had DeCSS applied to it? 10 MR. GOLD: That's a "yes" or a 11 "no." 12 A. Can I ask for a clarification of the 13 question? 14 MR. GOLD: You don't understand 15 the question? Listen to the question. 16 If you don't understand it, just say so. 17 (Record read.) 18 A. I'm sorry. That question doesn't 19 make sense to me. 20 MR. GARBUS: Can I hear the 21 question again? 22 (Record read.) 23 BY MR. GARBUS: 24 Q. Have you ever tried to make a 25 determination as to the quality of a film that is INTERIM COURT REPORTING 120 1 Schumann 2 shown from an original DVD that is now being shown 3 because DeCSS has "broken the code"? 4 MR. GOLD: You can answer that 5 "yes or "no." 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you know if anyone at the MPAA 8 ever has? 9 MR. GOLD: You can answer. 10 A. I have no knowledge. 11 Q. Do you know if anyone at the seven 12 plaintiffs, other than Time Warner, have? 13 A. I have no knowledge. 14 Q. Have you ever seen any reports from 15 either the MPAA or any of the other seven 16 plaintiffs? 17 MR. GOLD: Yes or no. 18 A. I have no knowledge. 19 Q. Do you know what DVD CCA is? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What is that? 22 A. It is the licensing or 23 administration authority for CSS. 24 Q. Who are the organizations, to your 25 knowledge, that are involved with DVD CCA? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 121 1 Schumann 2 A. I don't know the exact corporate 3 entity, corporate structure. 4 Q. Do you know who sits on their board? 5 A. Not in detail, no. 6 Q. Do you know who the head of it is? 7 A. I believe it is John Hoy. 8 Q. Do you know how many employees it 9 has? 10 A. I do not. 11 Q. Do you know where its offices are? 12 A. No, I don't. I think they are in 13 L.A. 14 Q. Prior to the time that the MPAA sent 15 out cease and desist letters, did you have any 16 discussion with them concerning those cease and 17 desist letters? 18 A. With -- 19 Q. With the MPAA. 20 A. I did not. 21 Q. Do you know to whom cease and desist 22 letters were sent? 23 A. I do not. 24 Q. Do you know how many cease and 25 desist letters were sent? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 122 1 Schumann 2 A. I do not. 3 Q. Do you know whether the cease and 4 desist letters were sent by the MPAA or the studios 5 themselves? 6 A. I do not, no. 7 Q. Do you know if there was any 8 response to the cease and desist letters? 9 A. I know that some sites went off 10 line. 11 Q. Did you ever see any of the 12 responses, any written responses to any of the 13 request? 14 A. To the MPAA cease and desist 15 letters? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. I don't believe so. 18 MR. GARBUS: Will you produce 19 those files, Mr. Gold? 20 MR. GOLD: What files? 21 MR. GARBUS: The cease and desist 22 letters, any responses to the cease and 23 desist letters, and any correspondence 24 relating to the cease and desist letters. 25 MR. GOLD: Correspondence between? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 123 1 Schumann 2 MR. GARBUS: Presumably between 3 whoever sent the cease and desist letters 4 and whoever received them. 5 MR. GOLD: Yes to all those 6 questions. We should have them soon. 7 MR. GARBUS: Pardon. In other 8 words, you will produce them? 9 MR. GOLD: You asked me three 10 times and I said "yes" to all three 11 requests, and I think they will be 12 produced real soon. 13 MR. GARBUS: Do you know when? 14 MR. GOLD: I don't know if they 15 have arrived to my office yet, so I 16 can't. 17 BY MR. GARBUS: 18 Q. Do you know who selected which sites 19 to get cease and desist letters? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Do you know whether or not -- 22 MR. GOLD: Hold on for a second. 23 (Recess taken.) 24 MR. GARBUS: Read back what I have 25 so far. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 124 1 Schumann 2 (Record read.) 3 BY MR. GARBUS: 4 Q. -- the MPAA has done any 5 investigation or examination into Linux's attempts 6 to build a DVD player? 7 A. Other than what I performed? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. No. 10 Q. So you have no knowledge one way or 11 the other? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. And that would be true if I were to 14 ask that with respect to the seven studios, as 15 well? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. And that would be true, to your 18 knowledge, if I asked that with respect to 19 Proskauer, as well? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Have you ever had any business 22 relationship with anyone at Linux or any of the 23 open source companies? 24 A. I have not. 25 Q. When for the first time did you use INTERIM COURT REPORTING 125 1 Schumann 2 a Linux system? 3 A. I believe it was August or 4 September. 5 Q. So that was not specifically for the 6 purposes -- had nothing to do, then, with your 7 being retained by the MPAA. That was before that? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Did you have any discussion with the 10 MPAA in November or December concerning Linux's 11 attempted development of a DVD player? 12 MR. GOLD: Answer that "yes" or 13 "no." 14 A. From November to December? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Tell me what that conversation was. 18 MR. GOLD: That is subject to the 19 work product privilege. 20 Q. Who did you have the conversation 21 with? 22 A. Mark Litvack. 23 Q. Who is he? 24 A. He is, I believe, a counsel for the 25 MPAA. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 126 1 Schumann 2 Q. Do you have any notes or memorandum 3 of the various conversations you have had with the 4 various people at the MPAA? 5 A. I believe I have some notes about 6 the conversations I had, yes. 7 Q. Did you ever speak to anybody at the 8 MPAA, other than their counsel? 9 A. I believe, as I indicated earlier 10 this morning, one of the conversations there was, I 11 believe, an additional individual on the phone. 12 Q. Never any independent conversation? 13 A. No independent conversations, that's 14 correct. 15 MR. GARBUS: Off the record. 16 (Discussion off the record.) 17 BY MR. GARBUS: 18 Q. Do you know if the members of MORE 19 supplied the code or the DeCSS to the Livid team 20 working on the development of the Linux DVD player? 21 A. Please clarify what you mean by -- 22 Q. DeCSS? 23 A. In what -- it appears in many forms. 24 Q. How many forms does it appear in? 25 A. At least two or three. It appears INTERIM COURT REPORTING 127 1 Schumann 2 as a source as executable. 3 Q. And? 4 A. I am aware they made it available on 5 the Linux forums as executable, as Windows 6 executable. 7 Q. When you say "they made it 8 available," you mean the MORE group? 9 A. Apparently. I mean have no personal 10 knowledge. 11 Q. You saw this from reading the 12 material on the website? 13 A. And the statements of the -- I mean 14 there were some statements in the press, as well by 15 the people purporting to be members of MORE. 16 Q. And the people who purported to be 17 members of MORE claim, as you saw, that they gave 18 the code in executable form to the DVD people to 19 help develop a Linux DVD player; is that right? 20 A. This is what they claimed, yes. 21 Q. Do you know if that is true? 22 A. In my professional opinion -- 23 Q. I didn't ask for your opinion. I 24 asked do you know whether or not it is true. 25 MR. GOLD: Whether or not it is INTERIM COURT REPORTING 128 1 Schumann 2 true that what? 3 MR. GARBUS: That MORE supplied 4 the executable code to people working on 5 developing an open source Linux DVD 6 player. 7 A. They did supply it on those 8 development forums. 9 Q. When for the first time did they 10 provide it? 11 A. It was -- if I recall, it was early 12 October of 1999. 13 Q. Is that the same -- you say early 14 October of 1999? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You are talking about the first ten 17 days? 18 A. I believe. I have to look at 19 detailed notes. 20 Q. When for the first time, when you 21 say you would have to look at detailed notes, which 22 notes are you talking about? 23 A. The report I discussed earlier where 24 I discuss the results of looking at these 3 inches 25 of paper. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 129 1 Schumann 2 Q. How soon -- 3 MR. GOLD: Hold on a second. 4 (Witness consulted with counsel.) 5 Q. So far as you know, is the 6 communication by MORE to the Linux people at the 7 same time that DeCSS was made available, made 8 public? 9 A. It was posted in a public forum. 10 Q. In which forum was it posted for the 11 first time? 12 A. I don't know that offhand. 13 Actually, I don't know the answer to that. 14 Q. Was it the Linux forum? 15 A. I don't know that. 16 Q. So far as you know, the first 17 posting of DeCSS may have been on the Linux forum? 18 A. May have been. 19 Q. Do you have any reason to believe 20 otherwise? 21 A. I don't believe so. 22 Q. What does the term "anonymous 23 source" mean? 24 A. In my experience, it refers to 25 source code whose author deliberately disguises INTERIM COURT REPORTING 130 1 Schumann 2 their identity. 3 Q. To your knowledge, with respect to 4 DeCSS, is there an individual who has said that he 5 is the "anonymous source" for that code? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Have you made any investigation -- 8 by "you" I mean the eight movie studios other than 9 Time Warner -- into who posted the anonymous source 10 code? 11 MR. GOLD: I think that is subject 12 to the work product. 13 Q. Did you make any investigation prior 14 to being retained by the MPAA? 15 MR. GOLD: In 1999. 16 A. No. I made no -- 17 Q. Did you make any investigation once 18 the MPAA retained you? 19 MR. GOLD: Yes or no? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Do you know if anyone at the MPAA 22 made any investigation? 23 MR. GOLD: Yes or no? 24 A. I have no knowledge. 25 Q. Do you know whether anyone at the INTERIM COURT REPORTING 131 1 Schumann 2 other eight studios, other than Time Warner? 3 A. I have no knowledge. 4 MR. GOLD: Are there eight 5 studios? 6 MR. HART: I think there are eight 7 plaintiffs. 8 MR. GARBUS: Off the record. 9 (Discussion off the record.) 10 BY MR. GARBUS: 11 Q. Do you know how many members of the 12 MPAA there are? 13 A. I do not know that, no. 14 Q. Did you ever see the website on 15 which Frank Stevenson published DeCSS? 16 A. Do you have a name for that? 17 Q. http/crypto.GQNU/ 18 A. I don't believe I know that website. 19 Q. Do you know how many universities 20 have received cease and desist letters in this 21 case? 22 A. No knowledge. 23 Q. Do you know how many scientists have 24 received cease and desist letters from the 25 plaintiffs? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 132 1 Schumann 2 A. I have no knowledge. 3 Q. Do you know how many universities or 4 scientists or other institutions posted the DeCSS 5 code prior to January 14th? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you know how many now do? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Have you ever had any conversation 10 with anyone at any of the universities that have 11 posted this information on their sites? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you recall seeing in the 14 Stevenson affidavit his claim that this was a very 15 weak security system? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you create security systems? 18 A. I myself do not create the 19 encryption codes, but I do help develop overall 20 security systems. 21 Q. Were you involved in the development 22 of CSS? 23 A. I was not. 24 Q. Now, you said in your affidavit that 25 everyone knew that the breaking of CSS was INTERIM COURT REPORTING 133 1 Schumann 2 inevitable. Do you remember using that word, 3 "inevitable"? 4 A. No, but I will -- if you point it 5 out, I will -- 6 Q. Do you agree with that or not? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. When you say "inevitable," what do 9 you mean by that? 10 A. It is certain to happen. 11 Q. Why? 12 A. Because all security systems have 13 historically proven to inevitably fail. 14 Q. Do you know, let's say with respect 15 to Universal, what their loss is due each year 16 to -- let's use the term -- Hong Kong pirates or 17 Asian copying, actual copying of DVDs? 18 A. I have no knowledge of figures like 19 that. 20 Q. Would your answer be the same if I 21 were to ask you the same question about each of the 22 studios? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. With respect to the losses that 25 Universal suffers as a result of copying or INTERIM COURT REPORTING 134 1 Schumann 2 pirating, do you know the percentage of loss that 3 comes from rippers or people who just copy the DVDs 4 in Hong Kong or wherever? In other words, do you 5 know the breakdown? 6 A. I do not. 7 Q. And your answer would be the same 8 with respect to each of the other companies? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And with respect to the MPAA? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Various of the plaintiffs in this 13 case earn search engines; is that right? 14 A. Various of the plaintiffs in this 15 case own -- 16 Q. Disney owns Infoseek; is that right? 17 A. I have no detailed knowledge, but I 18 am aware they own websites and web properties. 19 Q. Do the other plaintiffs also own 20 websites and web properties? 21 A. I presume they would. 22 Q. With respect to the Disney site, do 23 you know whether the Disney site links to any DeCSS 24 postings? 25 A. I have no knowledge. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 135 1 Schumann 2 Q. To your knowledge, has anyone at the 3 MPAA tried to determine whether the Disney site 4 links to specific DeCSS postings? 5 A. I have no knowledge. 6 Q. Do you know what strings are? 7 A. Strings? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. In the computer sense? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. I believe so, yes. 12 Q. Tell me what they are. 13 A. Strings is typically a term used to 14 define a sequence of text characters. 15 Q. Do you know whether the Disney 16 search engine, for example, will do a search if you 17 put in DeCSS? 18 A. If Disney has a search engine, which 19 I will believe is true, I would presume it would. 20 Q. And do you know how many sites then 21 come up under the Disney search? 22 A. I have no knowledge. 23 Q. Is your answer "no knowledge," would 24 that be true with respect to any of the other 25 plaintiffs in this case? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 136 1 Schumann 2 A. Yes, that's correct. 3 Q. Do you know if the Disney search 4 engine will take you to CSS.auth? 5 A. I have no knowledge. 6 Q. CSS.cat? 7 A. I have no knowledge. 8 Q. Do you have any knowledge of how 9 many people have downloaded or taken off -- 10 (Telephone interruption.) 11 BY MR. GARBUS: 12 Q. -- downloaded DeCSS? 13 MR. GOLD: I object to the form. 14 MR. GARBUS: Pardon me? 15 MR. GOLD: I object to the form of 16 the question. 17 Q. Do you know how many people have 18 read, viewed or seen, as of today, the DeCSS code? 19 MR. GOLD: You mean how many 20 people in the country have? 21 MR. GARBUS: Yes. 22 A. I mean I have no knowledge. 23 Q. Is there any way of determining 24 that? 25 A. Not effectively or not completely. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 137 1 Schumann 2 RL Q. How would you start? 3 DI MR. GOLD: I am going to object to 4 this, because I have given you a lot of 5 leeway all through the day, but I notice 6 this afternoon you are really picking this 7 up. 8 Mr. Schumann has not been designated 9 as a witness with respect to this area, but 10 the other witness that you are deposing 11 this week has been designated in this area. 12 MR. GARBUS: Which area are you 13 talking about? 14 MR. GOLD: The business of finding 15 out of who is or is not doing something, 16 as spelled out in our Complaints. 17 Who is doing relatively linking, 18 relatively posting, what efforts have 19 been made to stop proliferation to stop 20 DVD piracy. That's another witness 21 that has been designated for that. 22 MR. GARBUS: Can I hear the last 23 question and answer, please. 24 (Record read.) 25 BY MR. GARBUS: INTERIM COURT REPORTING 138 1 Schumann 2 Q. Mr. Stevenson says, "To my 3 knowledge, DeCSS and similar CSS descrambling 4 programs have been available to any interested 5 person with a working knowledge of the internet and 6 web and how to utilize search engines since at 7 least mid-October 1999." 8 Is that true? 9 A. That sounds likely. 10 Q. And then he says that "I think a 11 paper about the efforts of the Livid forum and 12 other related and unrelated individuals in 13 connection with CSS and DVDs will provide extremely 14 useful information for a wide variety of 15 individuals, scientists, and academics, including 16 cryptologists and persons interested in the DVD 17 media." 18 Do you agree with that statement? 19 A. Is that a statement when he refers 20 to his paper? 21 Q. No. He is talking about why he 22 should do his paper. Take a look at the first two 23 sentences. 24 A. I'm sorry. 25 Q. Let me read the first two sentences. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 139 1 Schumann 2 Here is what he says in Paragraph 14. 3 "In addition to the CCS-related 4 crypto analysis and other informational papers that 5 I have already published on the internet, I plan to 6 publish a paper concerning the cracking of CSS and 7 the development of video and DVD playback capacity 8 for the Linux machines in an academic and/or 9 industry-related journal." 10 Then he says, "I think a paper about 11 the efforts of the Livid forum and other related 12 and unrelated individuals in connection with CSS 13 and DVDs will provide extremely useful information 14 for a wide variety of individuals, scientists, and 15 academists, including cryptologists and persons 16 interested in the DVD media." 17 Do you agree with that? 18 A. I presume that paper would be of 19 interest, yes. 20 Q. Why would it be of interest? 21 A. It's clearly an area that is an area 22 of, I guess, hot development, if you will, or 23 interesting development and is, at this point, 24 obviously gotten attention. 25 Q. When you say "hot," what do you mean INTERIM COURT REPORTING 140 1 Schumann 2 by "hot"? 3 A. Hot as an area of development 4 activity. 5 Q. Be more specific. Can you? 6 A. By "hot," I referred to by having 7 public focus on it, if you will. 8 Q. And it being significant in the area 9 of cryptology? 10 A. The technical analysis of how CSS 11 works and its deficiencies is clearly an area of 12 interest to cryptologists. 13 Q. Why? 14 A. Because that's how cryptologists and 15 the security field learn, is from the mistakes of 16 others. 17 Q. Can you tell me something more about 18 that? 19 MR. GOLD: I object to the form. 20 A. It is a well-known -- fact isn't the 21 right word. 22 It is a well-known saying or 23 axiom -- probably not the right word either -- in 24 the security industry that cryptographic algorithms 25 that are not publicly reviewed have historically INTERIM COURT REPORTING 141 1 Schumann 2 proven to be weak. 3 Q. Why is that? 4 A. Because there is no opportunity for 5 a larger community to review and analyze those 6 algorithms. 7 MR. GARBUS: Let's take a 8 two-minute break. 9 (Recess taken.) 10 BY MR. GARBUS: 11 Q. What is the value of having a larger 12 community review codes for encryption materials? 13 A. In the encryption field, you get a 14 larger group of people who can review the 15 algorithms and the mechanisms employed. 16 Q. Do you read academic journals 17 relating to cryptography? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What academic journals do you mean? 20 A. I read some of the ACM journals on 21 communications and the occasional IEEE journal. 22 Q. Tell me something about the ACM 23 journal. What is that? 24 A. They tend to be very -- they are 25 very scholarly-oriented journals, typically dealing INTERIM COURT REPORTING 142 1 Schumann 2 with theoretical problems or more theoretical 3 problems. 4 Q. When you say "scholarly," do you 5 mean this goes to primarily universities? 6 A. I think they are read outside the 7 universities, but they are written in a university 8 or a -- the papers are typically written in a 9 university or scholarly fashion. 10 Q. By university people? 11 A. Sometimes. 12 Q. When you say they go outside the 13 universities, you mean they are in the universities 14 and then outside or just outside the universities? 15 A. These journals have wide 16 circulations. 17 Q. And the ACM is a respected journal? 18 The most respected in its field? 19 A. I believe it has many journals. 20 Q. Can you tell me what some of those 21 journals are? 22 A. I don't know. There are many on 23 different topics, on multi-process source, on 24 communications, on software development, and a slew 25 of others. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 143 1 Schumann 2 Q. How long has ACM been around? 3 A. I don't know exactly. It's 4 definitely one of the most respected associations 5 in the computer field. 6 Q. Does the name Barbara Simons mean 7 anything to you? 8 A. Only in relation to her affidavit. 9 Q. Had you ever heard of her before? 10 A. Not that struck me in particular. 11 Q. Getting back to Stevenson -- 12 Have you seen Barbara Simmons 13 statement that they intend to publish an article on 14 DeCSS and -- 15 A. I'm sorry. Whose statement? 16 Q. Did you see Barbara. I'm sorry I 17 have the name wrong. 18 Did you see Frank Stevenson's 19 statement that he intends to public an article? 20 A. If it's in his affidavit, then yes, 21 I saw that statement. 22 Q. And that any article analyzing the 23 DeCSS source code would in necessity have to 24 include the code itself? 25 A. It would certainly include portions INTERIM COURT REPORTING 144 1 Schumann 2 of the code. 3 Q. But you could see the value of 4 including the entire code? 5 A. Not necessarily. 6 Q. In your judgment, in order to make 7 the article meaningful, would you tell someone like 8 Stevenson you can publish 50 percent of the code? 9 20 percent of the code? 10 A. It would be simplistic to put it in 11 such a form. 12 Q. Can you give me a further response? 13 MR. GOLD: Objection to the form. 14 Q. It would be inappropriate to tell 15 him. Is that what you are saying, that you can use 16 X percent or Y percent? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And it would be inappropriate to 19 tell Barbara Simons or the ACM that you should 20 either take 50 percent or 20 percent or 80 percent? 21 It would be their judgment as to what is necessary 22 for the article; is that right? 23 A. That would appear to be reasonable, 24 in my understanding. 25 RL Q. You don't presume to know more than INTERIM COURT REPORTING 145 1 Schumann 2 Mr. Stevenson about cryptography and what ought to 3 be in articles that are written? 4 MR. GOLD: Objection to the form 5 of the question. Read the question back, 6 please. 7 (Record read.) 8 DI MR. GOLD: I direct the witness not 9 to answer it. I find it offensive. If you 10 want to take me up on it, go ahead. 11 Q. He says that DVDs have been playable 12 on Linux machines since October 1999. 13 Do you know whether that is true or 14 not? 15 A. The development logs talked about 16 people playing movies even prior to that date, I 17 believe. 18 Q. Before DeCSS? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Do you know what the relationship is 21 of DeCSS to the possibility of playing DVDs more 22 effectively on Linux machines? 23 MR. GOLD: Read that back. 24 (Record read.) 25 MR. GOLD: Is that a question that INTERIM COURT REPORTING 146 1 Schumann 2 is understandable to you? 3 THE WITNESS: I don't understand 4 exactly. 5 Q. Do you know what a DOD's stripper 6 is? 7 A. DOD's Ripper? 8 Q. Yes. 9 MR. GOLD: Which one? Ripper or 10 stripper? 11 MR. GARBUS: Ripper. 12 A. You are referring to the program 13 called DOD's Ripper? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. I have heard of that program, yes. 16 Q. That predates DeCSS? 17 A. I believe it did, yes. 18 Q. By how long? 19 A. Perhaps several months, if memory 20 recalls. 21 Q. So the DOD's Ripper was the first 22 utility that permitted the decryption of CSS? 23 A. I don't know if that is the way that 24 functioned. 25 Q. You don't know one way or the other? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 147 1 Schumann 2 A. (No response.) 3 Q. Do you know what I mean when I use 4 the word "utility"? 5 A. I understand. 6 Q. What do you understand it to mean? 7 A. Utility is a tool. 8 Q. Do you know what a Power Ripper is? 9 A. It is another tool. 10 Q. What does that enable the user to do 11 relative to DVDs? 12 A. To my understanding, it allowed the 13 storing of a stream being played back using, I 14 believe it was, a particular DVD player, software. 15 Q. When was Power Ripper first made 16 available? 17 A. I believe it was also several months 18 prior. 19 Q. To DeCSS? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Mr. Stevenson further says, and I 22 think you have agreed to this already, "To date --" 23 and the date of his affidavit is April 27th 24 "-- although as explained below, the technology 25 exists to make either expensive or poor quality INTERIM COURT REPORTING 148 1 Schumann 2 copies using DeCSS, I see no direct evidence 3 indicating any commercial piracy using that 4 utility." 5 Do you agree with that? 6 MR. GOLD: That he hasn't seen 7 any? 8 Q. Do you agree with that statement? 9 MR. GOLD: The statement says what 10 this man has or hasn't seen. 11 Q. Have you seen any direct evidence 12 indicating any commercial piracy? 13 A. I'm sorry. I lost what the question 14 was. Are you asking me to comment on what Frank 15 Stevenson knows or does not know? 16 MR. GOLD: I didn't understand 17 that to be his question, so I guess -- it 18 sounded like it, but I don't think that 19 was his question. 20 MR. GARBUS: We will mark as 21 Exhibit 3 the Declaration of Matt 22 Pavlovich. We will mark as 4 the 23 Declaration of Chris DiBona. We will 24 mark as Exhibit 5 the Declaration of 25 Frank Stevenson, and we will mark as 6 INTERIM COURT REPORTING 149 1 Schumann 2 the Declaration of David Wagner, and 7 3 will be Gilmore. 4 (Defendants' Exhibit 3, Declaration 5 of Matt Pavlovich, marked for 6 identification, as of this date.) 7 (Defendants' Exhibit 4, Declaration 8 of Chris DiBona, marked for identification, 9 as of this date.) 10 (Defendants' Exhibit 5, Declaration 11 of Frank Stevenson, marked for 12 identification, as of this date.) 13 (Defendants' Exhibit 6, Declaration 14 of David Wagner, marked for identification, 15 as of this date.) 16 (Defendants' Exhibit 7, Declaration 17 of Gilmore, marked for identification, as 18 of this date.) 19 MR. GARBUS: Please mark this as 20 Exhibit 8. 21 (Defendants' Exhibit 8, Declaration 22 of Bruce Schneier, marked for 23 identification, as of this date.) 24 BY MR. GARBUS: 25 Q. You previously talked about the INTERIM COURT REPORTING 150 1 Schumann 2 value to the academic community of information 3 about encryption or the way CSS works; is that 4 right? 5 A. I think I talked about the value of 6 encryption algorithms and how they work. 7 Q. What did you learn from seeing 8 DeCSS, if anything? 9 A. From DeCSS, the executable, I 10 learned nothing more than I could make an 11 unencrypted copy. 12 Q. Did it teach you anything that might 13 help you in the security business? 14 MR. GOLD: Did what teach him? 15 MR. GARBUS: Seeing the way in 16 which DeCSS was arrived at or how CSS was 17 structured. 18 A. Not to me personally, no. This is 19 the source code of DeCSS? 20 Q. Or the executable code. 21 A. No. Nothing in particular. 22 Q. I address your attention to 23 Paragraphs 18 and 19 of the DiBona affidavit. 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. Did you ever do what he has INTERIM COURT REPORTING 151 1 Schumann 2 described there? 3 A. Yes, I have. 4 Q. Does it work in the way that he 5 described it there? 6 A. Yes, it does. 7 Q. So that means, does it not, that 8 anybody who is watching a DVD with a computer can 9 decide to put the material from the DVD onto his 10 computer unscrambled? 11 A. The scrambled material? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. Using that mechanism? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Once the computer has it, are there 17 a variety of ways to unscramble it? 18 A. Can you hazard in what sense? 19 Q. Does "XING" mean anything to you? 20 A. I believe it's a -- XING was a 21 manufacturer of computer software. 22 Q. Do you know the relationship between 23 XING and the showing of scrambled DVDs? 24 A. As different from regular DVDs? 25 Q. Yes. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 152 1 Schumann 2 A. There is no difference. 3 MR. GARBUS: Can I hear the last 4 question? 5 (Record read.) 6 BY MR. GARBUS: 7 Q. Can you use XING to play the 8 scrambled files off a hard disk? 9 A. I have no knowledge. 10 Q. Have you ever tried it? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Do you know whether you can use 13 XING, therefore, to show a DVD that has been put 14 onto the hard disk? 15 A. A scrambled DVD? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. I have no firsthand knowledge. 18 Q. When you say you have no firsthand 19 knowledge, did you ever have any discussion with 20 anyone at the MPAA about it? 21 A. I have not. 22 Q. Do you have any secondhand 23 knowledge? 24 A. I have my technical understanding of 25 the structures in question. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 153 1 Schumann 2 Q. What is your understanding? 3 A. That a DVD disk would be required to 4 play the scrambled content. 5 Q. I address your attention to 6 Paragraph 21, DiBona, which you have in front of 7 you. We just looked at 18 and 19. The last 8 sentence says -- 9 MR. GOLD: Next-to-last paragraph? 10 MR. GARBUS: Last paragraph, last 11 sentence. 12 Q. It says, "It may even be possible to 13 make a CSS-equipped DVD player run the encrypted 14 VOB files directly off a hard drive without the 15 benefit of any assisted software." 16 A. You mean -- I guess -- 17 I don't know what he means by -- 18 this is not definitive enough for me to comment on. 19 Q. Look at the beginning of the 20 paragraph and see if that helps you with your 21 understanding of the third sentence. 22 A. A legal CSS-equipped DVD player, to 23 my knowledge, would not play crypted VOB files 24 without the existence of the disk, of a source 25 disk, DVD. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 154 1 Schumann 2 Q. CSS-auth is a way to decrypt DVDs; 3 is that right? 4 A. Not to my knowledge. 5 Q. What is it used for? 6 A. It is a mechanism for unlocking the 7 DVD drive. 8 Q. How does it do that? 9 A. Through a sequence of commands to 10 the drive firmware. 11 Q. What about CSS-cat? 12 MR. GOLD: What is your question? 13 Q. How does that function? 14 A. I have no knowledge of how CSS-cat 15 works. 16 Q. Do you know what an ATI capture card 17 is? 18 A. I do not. 19 Q. You have never heard that term 20 before? 21 A. I have heard of "ATI" and I have 22 heard the term "capture card," but never together. 23 Q. What do the words "capture card" 24 mean? 25 A. Typically used to describe a board INTERIM COURT REPORTING 155 1 Schumann 2 that captures video or audio. 3 Q. Who is ATI? 4 A. ATI is a manufacturer of computer 5 equipment. 6 Q. Does ATI make a capture card? 7 A. I have no detailed knowledge of 8 that. 9 Q. Do you know whether or not capture 10 cards could be used to copy DVDs? 11 A. To copy DVDs? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. In the sense of DeCSS? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. No. 16 Q. No knowledge? 17 A. No, they could not be used. 18 Q. Could they do it in a different way? 19 A. Potentially, yes. 20 Q. How? 21 A. They could capture the analog 22 output. 23 Q. How do they do that? 24 A. I presume they would take the input 25 from a video, from a monitor, or from a TV. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 156 1 Schumann 2 Q. Do you know whether ATI capture 3 cards or capture cards have been used to watch 4 DVDs? 5 A. To watch DVDs? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. I have no knowledge of the cards, so 8 I have no idea of how they would be used. 9 Q. Do you know who else makes capture 10 cards besides ATI? 11 A. I have no detailed knowledge of that 12 market. 13 Q. I direct your attention to Paragraph 14 25 of Frank Stevenson's affidavit, line 2 where he 15 says, "No readily available removable home computer 16 storage medium can store the amount of data 17 represented by a full-length feature film." 18 MR. GOLD: You mean line 3, 19 sentence 2? 20 MR. GARBUS: Yes. 21 Q. Do you agree with that? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Tell me what home storage medium is 24 available? 25 A. I believe and have seen in the past INTERIM COURT REPORTING 157 1 Schumann 2 that there are a variety of tape drives. 3 Q. For example? 4 A. I believe my affidavit describes one 5 and I would have to look for detailed names of 6 others. 7 Q. Are we talking about DAT tapes? 8 A. I believe DAT tapes are fairly 9 expensive. 10 Q. Were you just referring to DAT 11 tapes? 12 A. I believe there are other 13 technologies that are cheaper. 14 Q. For example? 15 A. Again, I would have to look in 16 detail. 17 Q. Have you ever seen a movie played 18 from a DAT tape? 19 A. Have I ever seen a movie played from 20 a DAT tape? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. No, I have not. 23 Q. Do you know if that has been done? 24 A. I have no knowledge of that. 25 Q. Is there any personal computer in INTERIM COURT REPORTING 158 1 Schumann 2 the United States or elsewhere that is presently on 3 sale with a drive that can write to a DVD? 4 A. I'm sure they exist. 5 Q. Name one. 6 A. I know that there are people who 7 write -- who make DVD offering systems that sell 8 them on PC's with DVD-R drives already inserted. 9 Q. Do you know of any of them? 10 A. I don't off the top of my head. 11 Q. Do you know what DVD-RW is? 12 A. It is a DVD writable disk. 13 Q. Can a DVD writable disk be played on 14 a DVD player? 15 A. On some. 16 Q. Which ones? 17 A. I believe the newer DVD drives will 18 play those disks. 19 Q. Take a look at Paragraph 27. 20 MR. GOLD: Still on Mr. Stevenson? 21 MR. GARBUS: Yes. 22 Q. The second sentence. A movie 23 consists of how many gigabytes of data? 24 A. It depends on the movie. 25 Q. Give me the variations. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 159 1 Schumann 2 A. It varies widely depending on the 3 compression algorithm of the content, the length of 4 the movie, the additional items on the disk. 5 Q. Assuming that a movie consists of 4 6 gigabytes of data, would it take more than 200 7 hours to transfer a movie via standard 56K modem 8 connection to the internet? 9 A. I haven't done the math. 10 Q. Do you know if anybody at the MPAA 11 has? 12 A. I do not, no. I have no knowledge. 13 Q. Have you ever seen any of the math 14 done by anybody at the MPAA or anyone of the other 15 seven studios? 16 A. I have not. 17 Q. Do you know if they ever did the 18 math? 19 A. I have no knowledge. 20 Q. Has anyone ever told you that they 21 did the math? 22 A. I have no knowledge. 23 Q. We are talking now both the studios 24 and the MPAA? 25 A. That's correct. I have no INTERIM COURT REPORTING 160 1 Schumann 2 knowledge. 3 Q. Have you ever seen a report -- can 4 you do that math now as you sit here? 5 A. I could. 6 Q. Please do it. 7 A. Do you have a calculator? Actually, 8 I have one here. 9 (Witness complied with request.) 10 A. How large did you say the file was? 11 MR. HERNSTADT: 4 gigabytes, 12 assume. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. What is your answer? 15 A. Approximately 160 hours. 16 Q. Can you tell us how you arrived at 17 that computation? 18 A. I took 4 gigabytes, multiplied it by 19 8 to get gigabits, divided that by 56,000 bits per 20 second. This is not completely precise, but close 21 enough, I assume. I Divided by 56,000 bits per 22 second, giving me the total number of seconds, 23 divided that by 3,600, which is the number of 24 seconds in an hour, to arrive at approximately 160 25 hours. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 161 1 Schumann 2 Q. If it were, let's say, a 6 gigabyte 3 movie, can you tell me how long that would take? 4 A. About one and a half times 158 5 hours. 6 Q. That would be -- 7 A. 225, I guess. 8 Q. Do you know the average number on 9 most movies, DVD movies? 10 A. They are, I believe, typically 11 between 4 and 6 gigabytes. 12 Q. Are there any that are 7? 13 A. I'm sure there are some. 14 Q. Can you give me a rough computation 15 of how long it would take with a 7 gigabyte of 16 data? 17 A. 1.75 times 158. So, 280 hours, 18 approximately. 19 Q. Directing your attention to 20 Paragraph 28 of the Stevenson affidavit, I will ask 21 you whether it is so or not. 22 "The tools to copy DVDs are and have 23 been available since prior to the posting of 24 DeCSS." Is that correct? 25 A. In what sense of copy? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 162 1 Schumann 2 Q. Copy in the sense of copying so that 3 people can look at the DVDs. Either the Hong Kong 4 type or DOD's Ripper or some of the other things we 5 have mentioned. 6 A. There are tools that have existed, 7 but they have very different end results. 8 Q. The next sentence, "There are tools 9 that compress the DVD to the VCD format, making it 10 possible to fit a much reduced quality version of 11 the movie onto two CD roms." 12 Isn't that so? 13 A. Yes, a portion of the content. 14 Q. These disks can be made VCD 15 compatible and playback may be possible on a VCD or 16 even DVD players. 17 A. I have no personal knowledge of 18 having seen that. 19 Q. Do you know how long it takes to do 20 that? 21 A. I have no knowledge of how long. 22 Q. Have you ever heard the term "video 23 capture card"? 24 A. I have. 25 Q. That's the same thing as a capture INTERIM COURT REPORTING 163 1 Schumann 2 card? 3 A. I presume. 4 Q. Have you ever seen a DVD compressed 5 to VCD or DivX? 6 A. I have not. 7 Q. Do you have any idea of the quality 8 of it? 9 A. I do not. 10 Q. Has anyone at the MPAA ever 11 discussed that with you? 12 A. No. 13 Q. When will the bandwidth backbone be 14 in place to permit the ordinary consumer to have a 15 T3 line? 16 A. In many locations it already exists. 17 Q. Where is that? 18 A. Probably every university campus in 19 the United States and in many foreign countries. 20 Q. How many private homes? 21 MR. GOLD: Did you finish your 22 answer to the question? 23 A. And in many corporations, as well. 24 Q. Any private consumers? 25 A. I imagine there are a few. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 164 1 Schumann 2 Q. What is the cost of it right now? 3 A. It is very expensive. 4 Q. Tell me what that is, to run a T3 5 line. 6 A. I imagine it's thousands of dollars 7 a month. 8 Q. Do you know who runs T3 lines? What 9 company does that? 10 A. I'm sure there are a variety of 11 them. 12 Q. Other than corporations, do you know 13 any individual consumers that have T3 lines? 14 A. I'm not personally aware of any, no. 15 Q. We used the term before that the 16 security system of CSS is a weak one. Can you tell 17 me what that word means in reference to this 18 system? 19 A. Who had used that term? 20 MR. GOLD: I don't understand the 21 question. 22 MR. GARBUS: Mr. Stevenson. 23 MR. GOLD: Do you want to read 24 that from the quote that you got that 25 from? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 165 1 Schumann 2 Q. In your opinion, is the CSS a weak 3 system? 4 A. In what sense? 5 Q. Breakable. Easily breakable. 6 A. To an average computer user? To an 7 average user? 8 Q. You tell me. You break it down. In 9 other words, to someone who is, let's say, 10 knowledgeable in cryptography. 11 A. To a small set of, I believe, highly 12 experienced cryptologists, in hindsight, it is not 13 the strongest algorithm. 14 Q. When you say it is not the 15 strongest, don't you mean it is very weak? 16 A. Relative to what? 17 Q. You said, strongest relative to 18 what. 19 MR. GOLD: What is your question 20 now? 21 Q. Does the name Jon Johansen mean 22 anything to you? 23 A. Yes, it does. 24 Q. Who is he? 25 A. He is, apparently, a teenager in INTERIM COURT REPORTING 166 1 Schumann 2 Norway. 3 Q. Do you know anything about his 4 educational background? 5 A. I have no specific knowledge. 6 Q. Do you know whether he ever took a 7 computer course in his life? 8 A. I have no idea. 9 Q. Do you have any reason to believe 10 that he has any particular technical skill? 11 A. I have no knowledge one way or 12 another. 13 Q. Do you know any other individuals in 14 MORE? 15 A. I am not aware of any other 16 individuals. 17 Q. Do you know the process by which 18 Johansen and the other MORE people discussed CSS 19 and the development of DeCSS? 20 MR. GOLD: What do you mean by 21 "process" or "discussed"? Do you mean by 22 e-mail or letter? You mean how they 23 communicated their knowledge to each 24 other? 25 MR. GARBUS: Yes. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 167 1 Schumann 2 A. It is my understanding, from items I 3 have seen attributed to Jon Johansen, that they, I 4 guess, used e-mail and I don't know what else, but 5 I assume e-mail. 6 Q. Did you ever see any of that e-mail? 7 A. I did not. 8 Q. Do you know if any of that e-mail 9 refers to the Linux system? 10 A. I have no knowledge. 11 Q. Do you know of any relationship 12 between MORE, Johansen and the Livid system or the 13 Livid Group? 14 MR. GOLD: Do you mean do they 15 know each other, the people in these 16 groups? 17 MR. GARBUS: I am asking whether 18 he knows. 19 MR. GOLD: Whether he knows that 20 they knew each other? 21 MR. GARBUS: And were working 22 together. 23 A. And were working together? 24 Q. Let's start with know each other. 25 A. Know each other in what sense? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 168 1 Schumann 2 Q. Talking to each other on e-mail. 3 A. I believe there was some amount of 4 discussion on e-mail with some members of the Livid 5 Group. 6 Q. With Johansen and the other members 7 of MORE? 8 A. In the materials I reviewed. No. 9 Just Johansen. 10 Q. This was before he broke the DeCSS, 11 the news of DeCSS, or after? 12 A. I believe it was right around the 13 period of the actual delivery of DeCSS. 14 Q. So you don't know whether or not the 15 Livid people knew about DeCSS before the general 16 public did or if they learned about it at the same 17 time? 18 A. I know that one member, at least 19 according to development logs, one member of the 20 Livid Group had access to the DeCSS prior to the 21 general release. 22 Q. Were there any Livid members who 23 were also members of MORE? 24 A. Not to my knowledge. 25 Q. How long prior to the release of the INTERIM COURT REPORTING 169 1 Schumann 2 information to the general public did the Livid 3 Group know about it? 4 A. What do you mean by Livid Group? 5 Q. You mentioned a member. 6 A. Yes. A single individual had 7 access. I don't recall. I believe it was several 8 weeks prior to the general public. 9 Q. Do you know where that single 10 individual lived? 11 A. Apparently, he lived in England. 12 Q. Was there also a member of the MORE 13 group who lived in Holland who was a member of the 14 Livid Group? 15 A. I have no knowledge of that. 16 Q. The person who lived in England who 17 was a member of the Livid Group, do you know what 18 work he did with Johansen on developing DVD CSS? 19 A. I don't believe he did any work with 20 Johansen. 21 Q. How did he come to know about the 22 DeCSS before it was released to the public? 23 A. It was my understanding, based on 24 the logs that Johansen sent the materials to this 25 member, I believe, unsolicited. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 170 1 Schumann 2 Q. When Johansen sent it, is it your 3 understanding that he knew that this person was a 4 member of the Livid Group? 5 A. Yes, I believe he knew that. 6 Q. Have you seen the correspondence 7 between Johansen and this person in England? 8 A. Only the public documents in the 9 development. 10 Q. You have no particular understanding 11 as to why, from the reading of any documents that 12 you have done, why Johansen sent it three weeks 13 before to a Livid member? 14 A. I have no understanding of why and 15 only some discussions as to that would point to why 16 not. 17 Q. Why not what? 18 A. That would seem to indicate Johansen 19 did not particularly like the Linux Group. 20 Q. What is the basis for that view? 21 A. Public statements by John Johansen 22 in the Linux development logs. 23 Q. When you say the "Linux development 24 logs," we are talking about excerpts of which you 25 have back in your office that are about 3 and a INTERIM COURT REPORTING 171 1 Schumann 2 half inches? 3 A. Yes. Some excerpts of which are in 4 my affidavit. 5 MR. GOLD: Let's take a short 6 break. 7 (Recess taken.) 8 BY MR. GARBUS: 9 Q. Did you ever try to transmit on the 10 internet VCDs? 11 A. Have I ever tried? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. No. 14 Q. Have you ever tried to transmit on 15 the internet DivX? 16 A. DivX, the program? Can you give me 17 more detail? 18 Q. The movies. 19 MR. GOLD: DivX, the movie? 20 A. A movie compressed with DivX? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. No. 23 Q. Have you ever tried to transmit on 24 the internet a DVD? 25 A. No. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 172 1 Schumann 2 Q. Do you know anyone who has ever 3 tried to transmit any of those, VCDs, DivX, or 4 DVDs, including downloading? 5 A. Do I know them personally? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. Not personally. 8 Q. Do you know if it has ever been 9 done? 10 A. I presume it has. 11 Q. When you say you presume, have you 12 ever seen manifestations of it? 13 A. I have never personally seen 14 manifestations of it, but I have seen it talked 15 about on a variety of sites. 16 Q. You have never seen it done itself. 17 You have just seen people talking about doing it or 18 having it done; is that right? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Has anyone at the MPAA ever told you 21 it has ever been done? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Before you were talking about the 24 advantage of distributing information about codes. 25 What does the term "proprietary algorithm" mean? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 173 1 Schumann 2 A. What does the term "proprietary 3 algorithm" mean? 4 Q. Right. 5 A. I guess an algorithm owned, I guess 6 controlled by a personal entity, a noncontrolled 7 algorithm. 8 Q. Miss Simon, Barbara Simon, uses the 9 term that "CSS is amazingly weak." 10 Now, tell me on a scale of 1 to 10, 11 where you would put the strength of CSS as a 12 security code. 13 MR. GOLD: I object to the 14 question. I don't think that it is 15 answerable, unless you want to give about 16 ten minutes of definition. 17 Q. You said that it is a strong code; 18 is that right? 19 A. Compared to some other things, yes. 20 Q. Compared to what? 21 A. Compared to a variety of simpler 22 scrambling algorithms. 23 Q. For example? 24 A. For example, I mean there is a long 25 history of much weaker protection mechanisms used INTERIM COURT REPORTING 174 1 Schumann 2 both commercially and in academia. 3 Q. Ms. Simon says CSS uses only a 4 40-bit key, a length known to be breakable in a few 5 minutes. Do you know whether that is true or 6 false? 7 A. That depends entirely on the 8 algorithm. 9 Q. Do you know how long it took 10 Johansen to break the code? 11 A. I have no knowledge that Johansen 12 broke the code. 13 Q. Do you know how long it took the 14 MORE group to come up with DeCSS? 15 A. I have no knowledge. 16 Q. Do you know if it took them ten 17 minutes? Three days? 18 A. I have no knowledge. 19 Q. So you have no knowledge whether it 20 took a few minutes or a few days, or a few hours? 21 A. It may have taken three years. I 22 have no -- 23 Q. To your knowledge, does anyone at 24 the MPAA know how long it took to come up with 25 DeCSS? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 175 1 Schumann 2 A. I have no knowledge. 3 Q. Do you know if there are any files 4 at the MPAA that has that information? 5 A. I have no knowledge. 6 RQ MR. GARBUS: Mr. Gold, there have 7 been a number of questions that I have 8 asked about information at the MPAA or any 9 of the other plaintiffs, other than Time 10 Warner, where he says he has no knowledge. 11 I would ask you to produce any files and 12 documents from either the plaintiffs, other 13 than Time Warner or the MPAA, that relate 14 to those inquiries. 15 MR. GOLD: I think that you said 16 you would have a list for me by the end 17 of the day today or this evening. 18 MR. HERNSTADT: Of? 19 MR. GOLD: Of all the documents 20 that you have asked for that I have taken 21 under advisement. 22 MR. HERNSTADT: Sometime today, 23 after you leave. 24 MR. GARBUS: There have been many 25 instances where I have just asked him INTERIM COURT REPORTING 176 1 Schumann 2 questions and he said, "I don't know if 3 there is a file," I haven't gone through 4 the rhythm each time of saying, "Will you 5 produce it?" and you say that you will 6 take it under advisement. 7 MR. GOLD: You asked me if there 8 is a file. Put that on the list. In 9 other words, put on the list all the 10 things that he asked is there a file on 11 X, Y, Z at MPAA, tell me what files you 12 have asked for, and I will try by 13 tomorrow late and get you a response. If 14 I have it, I will produce it. 15 MR. HERNSTADT: Off the record. 16 (Discussion off the record.) 17 BY MR. GARBUS: 18 Q. Did you ever see Johansen's 19 statement as follows: "The end of September last 20 year I got in contact with a German computer 21 programmer and a Dutch computer programmer and we 22 decided it was time to add DVD support to Linux"? 23 Did you ever see that statement? 24 A. It is, I believe in his affidavit he 25 makes that statement. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 177 1 Schumann 2 MR. GOLD: Who is "his"? 3 A. This is Johansen. 4 Q. Yes. So that you understand, 5 Johansen is taking the position that he did this in 6 order to add DVD support to -- 7 MR. GOLD: You are saying in the 8 Johansen Declaration? 9 Q. Have you ever seen a statement made 10 by Johansen that he decided that it was time to add 11 DVD support to Linux, that was why DeCSS was done 12 and why it was sent to Linux? 13 MR. GOLD: The question is whether 14 you have ever seen that statement 15 attributing that remark to Johansen. 16 A. In the Declaration I saw that 17 statement. Johansen. Is this in Johansen's 18 Declaration? 19 Q. No. You are talking about Chris 20 DiBona. You have never seen the Johansen 21 Declaration. I think you made a mistake. 22 A. That's why I asked. You are 23 referring to the interview in the DiBona 24 Declaration? 25 Q. Yes. And you saw that? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 178 1 Schumann 2 A. And I saw that interview, yes. 3 Q. Do you have any reason to believe 4 that that is not an accurate interview of Johansen? 5 A. It does not appear to me to 6 correlate with other statements attributed to 7 Johansen in the DVD development logs. 8 Q. Do you see where that statement 9 comes from? Do you see the source of it? CNN. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you have any reason to believe 12 that CNN was published in an interview that was in 13 any way false? 14 MR. GOLD: Are you asking if he 15 has any reason to believe one way or the 16 other? 17 MR. GARBUS: Yes. 18 A. I have no reason to believe one way 19 or the other. 20 Q. Have you seen any other statements 21 that Johansen has made, other than in a CNN 22 interview where he talks about DeCSS being created 23 specifically for the purpose of adding DVD support 24 to Linux? 25 A. Nothing specific I can recall. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 179 1 Schumann 2 Q. You didn't see that in any of the 3 3 and a half inches of material that you had? 4 A. No. 5 Q. What is your best recollection of 6 the date that you got the downloads from MPAA? 7 A. I received the materials in late 8 November. 9 Q. Have you seen any public statements 10 made by Johansen since then? 11 A. I have -- 12 MR. GOLD: You are implying that 13 there was some public statement made by 14 Johansen. The witness only said he read 15 something in CNN and some CNN person 16 apparently said something about what 17 Johansen said. 18 MR. GARBUS: No. 19 MR. GOLD: What no? 20 MR. GARBUS: It is an interview. 21 So, it is allegedly what Johansen said. 22 MR. GOLD: Well, CNN says it is 23 what Johansen said. That's all he said. 24 BY MR. GARBUS: 25 Q. Have you seen in any media since INTERIM COURT REPORTING 180 1 Schumann 2 December 1, 1999, any statements allegedly made by 3 Johansen to the press indicating that DeCSS was 4 created for the Livid system? 5 A. I don't recall seeing any specific 6 comment to that effect. 7 Q. Did you see any comments to the 8 contrary? 9 A. I don't remember specifically seeing 10 any comments to the contrary either. 11 Q. So to the best of your recollection, 12 your judgments or your views about Johansen's 13 motivations are totally informed by the material 14 that MPAA gave you in early December? 15 A. By the content of the development 16 logs, that's correct. 17 Q. And you don't know what they 18 withheld from you; do you? Or didn't give you? 19 MR. GOLD: Are you suggesting -- 20 MR. GARBUS: No, no. Absolutely 21 not. 22 MR. GOLD: Well, what is the 23 question? 24 Q. Do you know what information they 25 downloaded that they did not give you? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 181 1 Schumann 2 MR. GOLD: If any. 3 MR. GARBUS: If any. 4 A. I am hard pressed to know a 5 negative. 6 Q. Did you ever ask if there were any 7 more logs that they downloaded? 8 A. I did not. 9 Q. So you don't know, as you sit here 10 today, how many logs they downloaded? 11 MR. GOLD: Other than what he 12 received? 13 MR. GARBUS: Right. 14 MR. GOLD: Which he has testified 15 to. 16 MR. GARBUS: Right. 17 MR. GOLD: What else are you 18 asking? Then I don't understand the 19 question. Wait a minute. He has 20 testified -- 21 MR. GARBUS: Read back the 22 question. 23 (Record read.) 24 MR. GOLD: That's not -- he has 25 testified that he received logs from them INTERIM COURT REPORTING 182 1 Schumann 2 and he thinks he still has them. 3 MR. GARBUS: Right. 4 MR. GOLD: Those are the logs he 5 got. Now I am not understanding -- and 6 he knows that they downloaded those logs. 7 MR. GARBUS: They may have 8 downloaded 100 logs and sent him 30. I 9 am asking, as I understand it, what is in 10 those logs and he doesn't know whether or 11 not -- 12 MR. GOLD: What is in what logs? 13 The logs he never got? 14 MR. GARBUS: He doesn't know 15 whether or not -- let me see if we can 16 have an understanding. 17 He doesn't know whether or not 18 of the 3 and a half inches of logs that 19 he got, he doesn't know A, whether or 20 not the MPAA downloaded more logs or 21 not and B, you don't know whether or 22 not the MPAA saw on the internet more 23 than the logs they downloaded. Is that 24 correct? 25 MR. GOLD: It is correct, because INTERIM COURT REPORTING 183 1 Schumann 2 he already testified to that. 3 MR. GARBUS: I haven't asked him 4 about some of that yet. 5 MR. GOLD: I think you did. 6 Q. All of the entries that made you 7 think that DeCSS is not Livid related are the ones 8 that are attached to your Declaration or are there 9 others? 10 A. I offhand don't know, can't answer 11 that completely. 12 Q. Did you select the documents to be 13 annexed to your Declaration? Did you pull them out 14 of the 3 and a half inches? 15 A. I did. 16 Q. So you made that selection process? 17 A. I selected some, yes. 18 Q. And the reason for the selection was 19 precisely to show or to support the claim, as I 20 understand it, that what he did was not for Livid? 21 A. They were illustrative selections, 22 yes. 23 Q. When you say "illustrative," were 24 there other selections? 25 A. I said illustrative in the sense INTERIM COURT REPORTING 184 1 Schumann 2 that it was not an attempt to make a complete 3 selection of all materials that might be relevant, 4 but to select specific exemplary or -- examples. 5 Q. Have you read the Marcia King 6 affidavit before you came here today? 7 A. I'm sorry. Can you tell me more 8 about her? I'm sure I did. I need a better 9 description than a name. 10 Q. Marcia King submitted an affidavit. 11 Marcia King is an employee of Time Warner. 12 MR. GARBUS: So if you object to 13 my asking questions that relate to that 14 affidavit, I will not, at this time, ask 15 further questions. 16 MR. GOLD: Yes. Time Warner does 17 object. 18 BY MR. GARBUS: 19 Q. Do you know what information MPAA 20 downloaded prior to contacting you on DeCSS, if 21 anything? 22 A. No. I have no knowledge. 23 RQ MR. GARBUS: Mr. Gold, I would ask 24 you to produce all documents that MPAA has 25 relating to its knowledge of DeCSS or INTERIM COURT REPORTING 185 1 Schumann 2 material related to DeCSS or that any of 3 the plaintiff companies have, other than 4 Time Warner. 5 MR. GOLD: I will take it under 6 advisement and as I stated before, the 7 procedure that I will use, I am going to 8 study your list and get back to you as 9 soon as I can with a response as to 10 whether we will deliver it or whether we 11 have some objection. 12 BY MR. GARBUS: 13 Q. You have been in the security 14 business for how long? 15 A. I have been involved with security 16 for about five years now. 17 Q. In this situation, it is your sense 18 you did an examination of the links and hyperlinks 19 in your second affidavit, which we haven't gotten 20 to, but tell me just in general, before we go into 21 it at great length, how many different links it was 22 on, DeCSS, in total. 23 A. Links? From what to where? I'm 24 sorry. 25 Q. How many different sites had DeCSS INTERIM COURT REPORTING 186 1 Schumann 2 on it? 3 MR. GOLD: You mean posted DeCSS? 4 MR. GARBUS: Yes. 5 MR. GOLD: As of what period of 6 time? 7 MR. GARBUS: Let's say as of 8 December 1st. 9 A. I have no way of knowing a number. 10 Q. How about January 1st? 11 A. Again, I have no way of knowing. 12 Q. More or less than 2,000? 13 A. I have no idea. 14 RL Q. Did you ever make an investigation 15 of which links outside the United States -- which 16 sites outside of the United States have posted 17 DeCSS? 18 MR. GOLD: Hold on just a second. 19 (Discussion off the record.) 20 DI MR. GOLD: This was a subject 21 specifically referenced as one of the 22 subjects that Mr. Jacobson would be made 23 available to testify about. So that any 24 testimony on it isn't going to be binding 25 on anyone anyway. So, I think maybe you INTERIM COURT REPORTING 187 1 Schumann 2 should save some time. 3 MR. GARBUS: I object to that. 4 The witness has an affidavit. I can ask 5 questions about it. 6 MR. GOLD: You can ask questions 7 about it, but did he say how many people 8 did or didn't post or link? 9 MR. GARBUS: Can I ask my 10 questions? 11 MR. GOLD: No, because I think it 12 relates to an area that he hasn't been 13 designated for and to an area that 14 someone else has been designated for. 15 MR. GARBUS: As I understand it, 16 based on your letter to me of May 10th, 17 it says, "Schumann will testify about 18 linking and hyperlinking." 19 MR. GOLD: And he has been. 20 MR. GARBUS: He has not. 21 MR. GOLD: He testified to a lot 22 of -- 23 MR. GARBUS: We disagree. We will 24 get a ruling on it. 25 MR. GOLD: What you won't do is INTERIM COURT REPORTING 188 1 Schumann 2 interrupt me. So if you will hold your 3 horses and your fire for just a few 4 seconds, I will finish. 5 Ken Jacobson was identified as a 6 witness, designated by all plaintiffs, 7 other than Time Warner, and designated 8 by the MPAA as a witness who will 9 testify in the subject area as to the 10 persons or entities posting or linking 11 to DeCSS, and that's what he will do. 12 MR. GARBUS: We have a 13 disagreement. I am talking about 14 posting, I am talking about linking, I am 15 talking about hyperlinking. It's exactly 16 what this witness is supposed to testify 17 about. 18 MR. GOLD: Do you want to waive 19 your deposition of Mr. Jacobson? 20 MR. GARBUS: Absolutely not. We 21 will get a ruling. 22 MR. GOLD: Do whatever. You have 23 gotten a lot of rulings. 24 BY MR. GARBUS: 25 RL Q. With respect to linking -- first of INTERIM COURT REPORTING 189 1 Schumann 2 all, with respect to posting, do you know, let's 3 say as of December 1st, how many sites had posted 4 DeCSS? 5 MR. GOLD: Same objection. 6 MR. GARBUS: Let me ask about ten 7 questions and you will object and you 8 will have a record. 9 DI MR. GOLD: I object on this one on 10 the grounds that no plaintiff can be bound 11 by it and that another person has been 12 identified to testify on that subject. 13 Q. With respect to linking, I presume 14 Mr. Gold will make the same objection. We can just 15 save some time for December 1st, January 1st, 16 February 1st, and April 1st; is that right? 17 MR. GOLD: You have asked him a 18 question? 19 MR. GARBUS: Yes. 20 MR. GOLD: I don't want to talk to 21 him between a question and an answer, 22 although I am not aware of the question. 23 MR. GARBUS: Read it to him. 24 (Record read.) 25 MR. GOLD: The witness -- there is INTERIM COURT REPORTING 190 1 Schumann 2 no point in setting up disputes to bother 3 the judge with when, in fact -- I have 4 just been advised that the witness 5 doesn't know anything about this subject. 6 So, you want to ask him again? This is 7 the subject of how many people posted or 8 linked to a posting on any given date. 9 MR. GARBUS: Or hyperlinked. 10 MR. GOLD: Or hyperlinked. You 11 don't know that, how many people? 12 THE WITNESS: In the world? 13 BY MR. GARBUS: 14 Q. Let's start with the United States. 15 A. No, I have no way of knowing. 16 Q. Did you ever have any conversation 17 with anyone at the MPAA as to their view of the 18 number of individuals, viewers who saw or know the 19 DeCSS code on any given date? 20 MR. GOLD: Answer that "yes" or 21 "no." 22 A. No. 23 Q. Do you have any knowledge of how 24 many people knew at one time or another of the 25 DeCSS code? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 191 1 Schumann 2 A. No. 3 Q. Do you know how many viewers went to 4 any of the sites that either posted, linked, or 5 hyperlinked to sites that had the DeCSS code? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you know if the number of people 8 is more or less than 2 million? 9 A. I do not know. 10 Q. Do you know if there were any 11 downloads? In other words, can you tell if a user 12 of a computer, such as myself, if I want to print 13 out something, can you tell what I have chosen to 14 print out or not print out? 15 A. From -- with what knowledge? 16 Q. In other words, is there any way 17 that, to your knowledge, the MPAA has made any 18 estimate of the number of people who have printed 19 out DeCSS? 20 MR. GOLD: I think the question 21 is: "Do you know if the MPAA has made 22 any estimate of the number of people who 23 have printed out DeCSS"? If you can, 24 answer that question. 25 Did I get your question right? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 192 1 Schumann 2 MR. GARBUS: Yes. 3 A. No, I have no knowledge. 4 Q. And your answer would be the same 5 with respect to the other seven plaintiffs? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Do you know that there are T-shirts 8 that have "DeCSS" on it? 9 A. I know there are T-shirts that have 10 a portion of the DeCSS code on them. 11 Q. Is that portion of the code 12 sufficient with the use of crypto analysis to 13 finish out the code and get the rest of the code? 14 MR. GOLD: Read it back. 15 (Record read.) 16 A. I'm sorry. Is that code -- 17 MR. GARBUS: Withdraw it. 18 Q. Do you know how many websites posted 19 DeCSS on November 1st? 20 MR. GOLD: Answer "yes" or "no." 21 A. No. 22 Q. Just to save time, I assume that you 23 don't know, and tell me if that is true, with 24 respect to posting, linking, hyperlinking, and with 25 respect to any particular date that I ask you, that INTERIM COURT REPORTING 193 1 Schumann 2 you don't know how many sites there were that were 3 either posting, linking, or hyperlinking with 4 DeCSS; is that right? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. Do you know if anyone at the MPAA 7 knows? 8 A. I have no knowledge of that. 9 Q. Did anyone at the MPAA ever tell you 10 they did know? 11 MR. GOLD: Just "yes" or "no." 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you see Mr. Boyden's affidavit 14 in this case? 15 A. Can you refresh my memory? A name 16 alone is not good for my memory. 17 MR. GARBUS: Let's mark this as 18 the next exhibits, Exhibit 9. 19 (Defendants' Exhibit 9, Declaration 20 of Bruce E. Boyden, marked for 21 identification, as of this date.) 22 BY MR. GARBUS: 23 Q. Have you ever read that affidavit? 24 A. I don't believe I have ever read it. 25 Q. Let me show you Defendants' Exhibit INTERIM COURT REPORTING 194 1 Schumann 2 7. By the way, did anybody at the MPAA ever tell 3 you that they were visiting websites in January, 4 February, and March to determine where DeCSS was 5 posted? 6 A. MPAA? 7 Q. Yes. Or anybody on their behalf. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Who did it? 10 A. Someone at the Proskauer firm. 11 Q. Do you know if anybody at the MPAA 12 did it in addition to the Proskauer firm? 13 MR. GOLD: Yes or no? 14 A. No, I have no knowledge. 15 Q. Do you know whether or not since 16 they did it at the Proskauer firm, as sets forth in 17 the Boyden affidavit of January 13th, whether 18 anyone has done it at the MPAA since? 19 MR. GOLD: Only if they are 20 employed by MPAA? Is that what you are 21 asking? 22 MR. GARBUS: Yes. 23 A. Whether I have any knowledge if 24 anyone at the MPAA has looked at websites since 25 Boyden's -- INTERIM COURT REPORTING 195 1 Schumann 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. No, I have no knowledge. 4 Q. With respect to John Gillmore's 5 affidavit, which you have in front of you, which is 6 Exhibit 7, have you read Mr. Gilmore's affidavit? 7 A. I have. 8 Q. Had you heard of Mr. Gilmore prior 9 to this litigation? 10 A. Not in any specific way. 11 Q. Do you know who Sun Micro Systems 12 is? 13 A. I do. 14 Q. Do you know of his involvement 15 there? 16 A. Only from what I read in his 17 affidavit. 18 Q. By the way, do you know what Corel 19 is? 20 A. C-O-R-E-L? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What is it? 24 A. It is a company out of Canada 25 somewhere. Montreal maybe. INTERIM COURT REPORTING 196 1 Schumann 2 Q. What does it do? 3 A. They are a developer of software. 4 Q. Do you know what Redhat is? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What is that? 7 A. It is a company that sells Linux 8 versions. 9 Q. What does Corel sell or develop? 10 A. A variety of software. 11 Q. Either related to Linux? 12 A. Yes. I believe they have a version 13 of Linux. 14 Q. When you say they have a version of 15 Linux, can you tell me something more about that? 16 MR. GOLD: Objection to the form. 17 A. (No response.) 18 Q. When you say they have a version of 19 Linux, what does that mean? 20 A. It means they sell a particular 21 variation or release of Linux. 22 Q. Do you know what Cynga Support was? 23 A. I'm not familiar with that to any 24 degree. 25 Q. Did you ever hear of the term "Cyber INTERIM COURT REPORTING 197 1 Schumann 2 Punks"? 3 A. I have not. Not prior to reading 4 the affidavit. 5 Q. Have you ever read any articles 6 about Mr. Gilmore? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Have you ever read anything that he 9 has ever written? 10 A. Not to my specific recollection. 11 Q. Have you ever read anything that 12 Mr. Stevenson has ever written? 13 A. I have. 14 Q. What is that? Just the material 15 that came off -- excuse me. 16 A. The material off his website, yes. 17 Q. Other than that, have you ever read 18 anything of his? 19 A. I have not. 20 Q. Have you ever read anything of 21 Mr. Touretzky's affidavit that you have probably 22 read? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Have you ever heard of Mr. Touretzky 25 prior to today? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 198 1 Schumann 2 A. I have not. 3 Q. Does the name Mr. Abelson mean 4 anything to you? 5 A. It does not. 6 Q. Did you read his affidavit before 7 you came here today? 8 A. If it was one of the affidavits, I 9 would have read it, yes. 10 Q. You read all the affidavits? 11 A. Again, I apologize. Names are 12 not -- 13 Q. Have you ever read anything that 14 Mr. Abelson has ever written? 15 A. Can you refresh me more about his 16 affidavit and his background, please? 17 Q. I will show you the affidavit. With 18 Mr. Appel, have you ever read anything that he has 19 ever written? 20 A. Again, I would have to see his 21 affidavit to refresh my memory. 22 Q. Have you ever heard of his name 23 before this lawsuit? 24 A. No, I have not. 25 Q. Do you know if their affidavits were INTERIM COURT REPORTING 199 1 Schumann 2 ever submitted in any other lawsuits? 3 A. I have no knowledge, unless they 4 referenced that in their affidavits. 5 Q. Do you know what the public policy 6 award from the RCA Data Security is? 7 A. RSA? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. I am not familiar with that 10 particular award. 11 Q. What is the RSA? 12 A. RSA is a security company. 13 Q. Prestigious in their field? 14 A. Yes, they are. 15 Q. What kind of work do they do? 16 A. They are primarily known for the RSA 17 algorithm that the founders of RSA developed. 18 Q. Do you know whether or not 19 Mr. Gilmore ever won an award from that company? 20 A. If it's mentioned in his affidavit, 21 I have no reason to believe he did not. 22 Q. The DeCSS software for Windows and a 23 similar READDVD software for Linux can both be used 24 to copy compressed video images from a DVD disk 25 onto a hard drive. Isn't that so? INTERIM COURT REPORTING 200 1 Schumann 2 A. I know that DeCSS can perform that. 3 I have no detailed knowledge of the other program. 4 MR. GARBUS: We can stop now. I 5 think we have another day at least with 6 this witness. I think more. I think at 7 some point in time, maybe after that day, 8 we can get rulings on whether or not I 9 can examine him at length about his 10 affidavit of April 3rd, which -- 11 MR. GOLD: You can examine him now 12 about his affidavit. 13 MR. GARBUS: But that's exactly 14 what you told me for us to do. 15 --o0o-- 16 (Continued on next page to include jurat.) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 INTERIM COURT REPORTING 201 1 Schumann 2 MR. GOLD: I was responding to the 3 specific questions you asked. You wanted 4 questions about his affidavit. Let's go 5 off the record. 6 (Time noted: 5:00 p.m.) 7 8 9 ______________________________________ 10 ROBERT W. SCHUMANN 11 12 13 Subscribed and sworn to before me 14 this____ day of___________, 2000. 15 16 __________________________________ 17 NOTARY PUBLIC 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 INTERIM COURT REPORTING 202 1 2 C E R T I F I C A T E 3 STATE OF NEW YORK ) 4 ) ss.: 5 COUNTY OF RICHMOND) 6 I, ELIZABETH SANTAMARIA, a Shorthand 7 Reporter and Notary Public within and for 8 the State of New York, do hereby certify: 9 That ROBERT W. SCHUMANN, the witness 10 whose deposition is hereinbefore set forth, 11 was duly sworn by me, and that such 12 deposition is a true record of the 13 testimony given by such witness. 14 I further certify that I am not 15 related to any of the parties to this 16 action by blood or marriage; and that I am 17 in no way interested in the outcome of this 18 matter. 19 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto 20 set my hand this 16th day of May, 2000. 21 22 _____________________________ 23 ELIZABETH SANTAMARIA 24 25 INTERIM COURT REPORTING 203 1 2 ------------------ I N D E X ------------------ 3 WITNESS EXAMINATION BY PAGE 4 ROBERT W. SCHUMANN MR. GARBUS 4, 103 5 MR. HERNSTADT 69 6 ----------- INFORMATION REQUESTS -------------- 7 DIRECTIONS: 38, 40, 58, 67, 115, 116, 117, 137, 145, 8 186, 189 9 RULINGS: 8, 38, 40, 58, 67, 116, 117, 137, 144, 186, 10 188 11 REQUESTS: 29, 33, 52, 79, 105, 175, 184, 12 13 ------------------- EXHIBITS ----------------------- 14 DEFENDANTS' FOR I.D. 15 Defendants' Exhibit 1, Mr. Robert W. Schumann's 16 Declaration......................................... 30 17 Defendants' Exhibit 2, Supplemental Declaration 18 of Robert Schumann.................................. 73 19 Defendants' Exhibit 3, Declaration of 20 Matt Pavlovich...................................... 149 21 Defendants' Exhibit 4, Declaration of 22 Chris DiBona........................................ 149 23 Defendants' Exhibit 5, Declaration of 24 Frank Stevenson..................................... 149 25 --o0o-- INTERIM COURT REPORTING 204 1 2 --------------- I N D E X (C O N T'D) -------------- 3 ------------------- EXHIBITS ----------------------- 4 DEFENDANT'S FOR I.D. 5 Defendants' Exhibit 6, Declaration of 6 David Wagner........................................ 149 7 Defendants' Exhibit 7, Declaration of 8 John Gilmore........................................ 149 9 Defendants' Exhibit 8, Declaration of 10 Bruce Schneier...................................... 149 11 Defendants' Exhibit 9, Declaration of 12 Bruce E. Boyden..................................... 193 13 14 --o0o-- 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 INTERIM COURT REPORTING
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