5 May 2006

Related:

michael-smith.htm   + Michael John Smith - Alleged Russian Spy         February 27, 2006
r-v-smith-su.htm    + Regina v. Michael Smith Summing Up UK Spy Case   March 31, 2006

The schedule of interviews and interviews (746 pages) original files in Word DOC format:

http://cryptome.org/smith-inter.zip (360KB)

SCHEDULE OF INTERVIEWS

MICHAEL JOHN SMITH

Audio Tape Transcript

INTERVIEW 1 ~ TAPE 1

Person interviewed: Michael John Smith

Place of interview: Paddington Green Police Station

Date of interview: 8th August 1992

Time commenced: 15:05 Time concluded: 15:31

Other persons present:

Detective Inspector Martin Nicholson

Detective Sergeant Gary Pepe

Pepe: This interview is being tape-recorded. I am Gary Pepe, Detective Sergeant attached to New Scotland Yard. The other officer present is …

Nicholson: Detective Inspector Nicholson, also attached to New Scotland Yard.

Pepe: We are in the interview room of Paddington Police Station. I am interviewing, if you could state your name sir.

Smith: My name is Michael Smith of 48A Burton Road, Kingston upon Thames.

Pepe: Lovely, thank you. You are entitled to speak to a solicitor at any time Mr Smith, day or night.

Smith: I don't need a solicitor.

Pepe: Well, I've got to give you the right Michael, it's free of charge and it is your entitlement.

Smith: Well, I don't think this is going to get very much further, so I don't think ...

Pepe: Ok, are you happy to be interviewed without a solicitor at this present moment in time?

Smith: Why not, yes, course I am.

Pepe: There is no other person in the room. The date is the 8th August 1992. It is a Saturday. The time by my watch is 5 minutes past 3.

Smith: Well, in which case I'm getting a bit worried about the time, can you. …

Pepe: Ok, so it's 5 minutes past 3. At the conclusion of the interview I will give you a notice, here's a form here, which will explain how you can have access to the tapes which are in the machine at the moment. Ok, so you can have your own copy. When you were arrested you have certain rights.

Smith: Hang on, I didn't think I was arrested. I think you brought me in for questioning, or something.

Pepe: Well you've been arrested, that's why ...

Smith: I don't agree with that.

Pepe: You've been arrested.

Smith: I think that's been portrayed wrongly.

Pepe: Michael listen to me, what I am saying to you is you have been arrested.

Smith: On what charge?

Pepe: When any person is arrested they have certain rights, Ok, the right to say nothing, that is, you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be used as evidence. Now I want you to understand that, that any answer that you give to me is at your own free will.

Smith: Of course it is, yes.

Pepe: You've been arrested, you haven't been charged with any offence.

Smith: Well I don't want this going on the record because I'm trying to go at the moment for, er, citizenship in New Zealand, I want to emigrate.

Pepe: Oh do you.

Smith: So I don't need this on my records, so I don't need a charge.

Pepe: Right. The reason for the delay is the fact that when any person is arrested, all the officers concerned have to make notes about exactly what did occur, and later on I'll show you those notes so that you are exactly clear as to what is being alleged against you.

Smith: Right.

Pepe: Ok, um. Basically, have you any questions of me first of all?

Smith: Well, I mean, I don't know, you mentioned the charge, I don't know any, what evidence is being presented against me.

Pepe: Right.

Smith: Or what I've supposed to have done.

Pepe: Right.

Smith: Why wasn't this, didn't come up before, I mean it's never … I think the reason is because I've been after a job.

Pepe: This has taken you completely by surprise?

Smith: Yes it has. I've been after a job for, um, quite a high level job in Ferranti at Milton Keynes, I know they were interested in me.

Pepe: Right

Smith: People, people.

Pepe: What do you do?

Smith: I'm a quality assurance engineer.

Pepe: O, right, yeah.

Nicholson: Could you explain what that work deals with?

Smith: The work deals with, um, investigating problems in a company's quality assurance system. I'm an auditor mainly, I travel around different departments discussing, um, administrative details with people about how they keep records, how they organise their project management, and that sort of thing. It is more management of, um, the projects rather than technical details.

Nicholson: Is this any particular, is this with any company you perform that?

Smith: ... sorry , I can perform that in any company?

Nicholson: You perform that in any company?

Smith: It's quite a well sought after, uh, discipline.

Nicholson: This is a Quality Assurance …?

Smith: Well, auditor/engineer. I mean, I'm specialising in auditing, which means that I've had to pass an exam, and I'm only a couple of audits off being accredited as an official auditor, so that I could work within a company that gives accreditation to quality systems, such as BS5750, etc.

Nicholson: I take it you've got qualifications?

Smith: Yeah. No, I've been made redundant. I mean, that was a problem. I guess this is what this has come out of. I was made redundant, which happened a week ago yesterday.

Nicholson: You are working for whom then?

Smith: For Hirst Research Centre, which is in Wembley.

Nicholson: What do they deal with?

Smith: They deal mainly with research for the G.E.C., into materials and a bit of chemistry, and semi-conductors, which has now gone more or less. It's a mixture of projects and I wouldn't like to say they specialise in anything, it's very, um ...

Nicholson: Can I come back and remind you, and really the purpose of this interview was to take you from the time of your arrest, up to the time of your arrival at the police station, and for you to look at the notes that we have compiled since that time.

Smith: That's not helping me, is it?

Nicholson: Well, what I really want you to do is look at these first. Let's get this out of the way ...

Smith: Ok, look, I was walking down the road, I don't know which of you shouted out the window, “are you Michael Smith” - I said “yes”. Why shouldn't I say yes? Next thing I know, somebody's trying to man-handle me and put handcuffs on me. I didn't know if you were police or not. I mean, there's no marked car.

Pepe: What were you doing immediately ... Where have you just ...?

Smith: I'd just been down to the shop to, er, get a newspaper.

Pepe: Yeah.

Smith: I was walking back.

Nicholson: What, you'd just left home?

Smith: Yeah I'd left home. I went round the block and, er …

Pepe: So you literally just got up then?

Smith: Yeah, in fact I'd been making love to my wife only minutes before. I mean, she had to go to a back appointment, because she's got a damaged disc, and she has to go to an osteopath once every 3 months or so, I suppose.

Nicholson: Right.

Smith: And she was a bit late to get out of that, and I said look, hang on, I'm just going to get a paper and, er, I'll be back in a few minutes.

Nicholson: That's all you did, you just popped out and …?

Smith: Yeah, I walked around and, er, I came back, and that I thought – well, I'd just catch her, because I see her car was there - I thought well, just say hope it goes well, as I was coming back, and then you guys ...

Nicholson: Right.

Smith: That's why I didn't want her to see from the window, because I know she needs to relax before she goes to these back appointments, because it's bad for her back.

Nicholson: Ok, can I come back to the other point. What we have here are the notes that we made, compiled from the time that we arrested you, from the time I arrested you, from the - I told you why I was arresting you. Do you remember those words?

Smith: I don't remember exactly which words you used.

Nicholson: Well, what I said to you, …

Smith: It was a bit of a shock.

Nicholson: I was arresting you for communicating classified information to a hostile agency.

Smith: Well, I mean, I don't know how I'm supposed to answer that.

Nicholson: Ok.

Smith: I don't even know what you're even talking about.

Nicholson: I then pointed out to you that that was an offence against the Official Secrets Act

Smith: Yes.

Nicholson: And then I cautioned you.

Smith: Ok, well I understand you.

Nicholson: Do you remember that?

Smith: Yeah, I remember that ...

Nicholson: ... You're not obliged to say anything - and do you remember those words at the time?

Smith: Yes. I remember those words.

Nicholson: Then we seemed to go downhill in our relationship, because ...

Smith: Look. I tell you exactly. I'm a very ...

Nicholson: My assessment was that you were resisting.

Smith: No, I'm quite a determined person. I have to be in my job. It's not the sort of job you can just go and talk to people, and let them get away with murder on their quality systems. I have to be ...

Pepe: So you're quite assertive?

Smith: I have to be. I mean it's my job.

Nicholson: You hire and fire people?

Smith: No, I don't hire and fire people, but I have to get to the answer that I want, and make people do what I want. That's my job, and when I've got guys coming up to me ...

Pepe: And not doing what you say, I suppose.

Smith: I'm not even given a chance to discuss it with you. I, er, if you come up to me in the street and said “look, we've got a problem here, can you come down to the station and discuss it”, I would have just got in the car - but it wasn't treated like that, you seem to have the impression I was going to run away or something ...

Pepe: I took by your actions, Michael. I mean, we've never met before, and as you say, your character is rather assertive, and all the rest of it. Well, you would have run away, that's why I ...

Smith: Why should I run away? What for? Where am I going to go? I was going home.

Nicholson: The whole point was reinforced on our journey that, um ...

Smith: Well, you know what happened. I play the guitar, and I have to watch my hands.

Pepe: Yeah.

Smith: And you've got this bloody thing that's- it was so tight, that I could feel it on my bones almost. I said, “look, can you release it, because I'm sitting on this”. I said, “can you release it”, or something like that. Because I wasn't going to jump out of the car, I'm not an idiot.

Nicholson: Can I just draw your attention to ... We've been through these notes, um. Sergeant, if you could just tell Michael Smith, what the point that just triggered, just before he started becoming very violent.

Pepe: To me Michael, I was doing your handcuffs – yeah, and sorting them all out, the metal ones, yeah - because you said they were hurting you, and I can see by the, at the moment now, the reddening and all the rest of it, you've got quite big wrists. But you turn to me, and the look on your face, whereby you said, “you're not the police, I know who you are”.

Smith: I thought you were kidnapping me or something. I didn't know.

Pepe: I know because you shouted.

Smith: Well, who are you, I mean, you're in an unmarked car. I mean, I just stopped in the street. Remember, I'm just, I hadn't been up very long. I was a bit tired.

Nicholson: Who did you think we were?

Pepe: Who did you think we were?

Smith: God knows who, but I, this comes back to this job at Milton Keynes. I've applied for this job; I'm sure they were considering me; I suppose they won't now, I don't know, because of all this. And I've actually seen people outside I thought, who were watching my house, but it's happened before. I don't know if it's the Special Branch, or who they are. But people, I've seen people actually looking at my house.

Nicholson: When?

Smith: This was a week ago, two weeks ago.

Nicholson: Is this since you made your application for this job?

Smith: Yes, and that's why I thought it's something to so with that, and I thought this has raised some issue, because I had a security problem in the past which I thought I'd got rid of.

Nicholson: What was that related to?

Smith: It was a job that I had - must be 76 to 78 - when I worked for E.M.I. Electronics, and I was working on a very sensitive project there, er, is this, can I talk about things?

Nicholson: Yeah, just talk your way through whatever you think is the cause for it ...

Smith: All this is very relevant, because I think I've lived with this problem for a long time. In the early 70's, after I left university, I got rather interested in left-wing politics, right?

Nicholson: Could you put a degree on that?

Smith: Er, for a short time I was …

Nicholson: It goes all the way from Labour Party to Trotskyists.

Smith: I, because I had friend who was a Yugoslav, and he was quite persuasive, and we used to share a flat for a short time. He talked to me about politics, and made me think about, well, things maybe not as good as they should be, and all this sort of thing. And, after I left university, I thought, well yeah, maybe he's right, and I got mixed up with a few characters who were in the Communist Party, and I joined the Young Communist League, and I played a role in some of their meetings. It was never serious, from the point of view that I was breaking the law, or doing anything stupid. It was just a phase I went through. I was looking for something I suppose. It's probably sex actually, because I hadn't had much success with girlfriends in the early part of my life, and I thought, well it's a way of meeting people, perhaps doing something a bit different, and it dragged on for 2 or 3 years I think - 74, 75 I left. I got disillusioned with it. It wasn't what I wanted, and it must have been within a year that I got this job at EMI Electronics. Then I know what happened, I mean, somebody has found through the records that I'd been involved in this, and they suddenly got a shock, because I was working on a very sensitive project and suddenly I, it coincided with, I was looking for a course to do.

I was doing an MSc course. I was looking for a project to do on, um, on this course. It was a part of the course.

Nicholson: What was the general nature of that work that you were doing?

Smith: It was, well, I shouldn't really discuss it with you, but I don't know if you've been cleared to discuss these things.

Nicholson: I think not.

Smith: I'm not going to say, I'm not going to - if I'm in here for this reason. I'm not going to get involved in any classified ...

Nicholson: Fine, carry on where you were.

Smith: So, I was involved in this project for the best part of 2 years, and suddenly I was looking for this, um, project. I said, “I need to do this project for this MSc course”, and they said, “Oh, you can't do it here, you have to go to EMI Medical”. And I was given to believe that that was what it was for. I found out afterwards that no, I wasn't going there for that reason, they'd actually kicked me out. Then I got really, you know, curious and angry about it, because I thought, well, what's it's for? Ok, maybe they'd found out about this earlier interest I'd had in left wing politics, but by that time I was married. I had no interest in politics. In fact we were more interested in the Social Democratic Party, my wife and I - in the early days when that started up. And since then I don't really give a damn. I mean, honestly, all I'm interested in is what I think I can do for myself, and that's that.

Nicholson: Ok. Let's come back to the area that you say, for a few weeks ago, you suspected people were looking at you.

Smith: Well, no, I wouldn't have gone for the job, honestly, I mean, it was just ...

Nicholson: Was it a sensitive job?

Smith: I think it was ...

Nicholson: You were talking earlier that you were on sensitive work.

Smith: You know what, um, Ferranti's into military radar systems. I mean, it's not, I don't think it is. I mean, who is it going to interest now. There's no threat from abroad. I can't see. But anyway, I guess, because I revealed that I'd been, er, I went through this Positive Vetting system in 1980, to try and clear up this mess from the 70's, and my current job also involved - er, I don't know what level - a very low level I think of security clearance, because I wasn't really doing anything secret, and I just applied for this job, because it had been offered to me as an interview, for Ferranti. I went along and filled in the questionnaire, a security questionnaire. Next thing I know, I was sure that somebody was watching the house, and maybe it's - I'm paranoid - I don't know.

Nicholson: What was the level of security clearance required for that job that you, the one ...?

Smith: The one I just left?

Nicholson: No. Yes, the one that you say that prompted these persons to start looking at you, or what you believe.

Smith: I don't know, I mean ...

Nicholson: The one you're going to.

Smith: Well, the one I was going to was, er, I wouldn't say it was top level. I mean, I think radar systems are fairly well known.

Nicholson: You've had previous security clearance?

Smith: Yes, I mean, for the job I was doing.

Nicholson: Do you know up to what level?

Smith: I think it was quite low level. I don't think ...

Nicholson: Always? You've never had a very high clearance?

Smith: No, I must have had when I was working at EMI Electronics, because ...

Nicholson: And would you have needed the same level for this job, that you were going for?

Smith: I don't think so.

Nicholson: But you think, that as a result of that application that you've last made, this prompted you to be looked at, in ...?

Smith: Well, it's all happened so suddenly. I mean, I was going along fine. I mean, the wife. I was saying my wife and I have been considering going to New Zealand, because actually I'm sick of the way this country has gone. I mean it, the unemployment. I mean, I've been, the second time I've been made redundant in 6 or 7 years, and I really don't want to spend my life like this. I thought New Zealand would really give us a fresh start. We've made all the opening, er, sort of moves, you know.

Nicholson: Had you employment set up?

Smith: I've got a possible job. I'm going for an interview in September, with a guy who's coming over, visiting this country.

Nicholson: Who's that with?

Smith: It's with an organisation called TELARC, which is an auditing organisation. I'm ideally suited to that job, I think, and I've got a good chance of getting it. I'll go, and I'll have a new life there.

Nicholson: Can we come back to this ...

Smith: This job at Ferranti. I don't think I would have taken it, if they'd offered it. That's the annoying thing.

Nicholson: You mentioned at first, that you had a Yugoslav friend. Do you think he was the cause of your problems?

Smith: I don't know. He lives in this country now, somewhere.

Nicholson: Does he now, Ok. Right, let's go back to a few weeks ago. You say you saw persons.

Smith: Well I thought, I mean, ... I said to ...

Nicholson: Give us an approximation of the circumstances. Was it at work, was it at home ...?

Smith: I said to my wife. I was looking out of the window, cooking I think. I looked out of the window, saw this guy sort of wandering around. He looked like he didn't know where he was going. But he kept coming back. A couple of times he went past my door.

Pepe: When was this?

Smith: I don't know. This was, er, this was, let's think.

Must have been 2 weeks ago. I really can't say when it was. It was early evening, about 8 o'clock. It was 8 o'clock, because I remember.

Pepe: About 2 weeks ago?

Smith: Yeah, I think.

Nicholson: What did he look like to you?

Smith: He just looked like, um, I'd say about 50, rather grey looking sort of person, with a grey suit on.

Nicholson: Was it the one instance?

Smith: Well that's the only time I can remember seeing him, yeah.

Nicholson: What about other. You say that as a result of things that you've seen.

Smith: Well, I'm a good neighbour. If I see anything going on outside, that I think's a bit, you know, untoward, I make a comment. In fact, I know what happened back in ‘77, when they were investigating this earlier left-wing interest I'd had. It must have been, they, um, they are Special Branch I suppose. A guy knocked on the door and he said, “Look, we're investigating this crime. It's a theft of antiques in Kent”. And I thought, “who the fuck do I know in Kent”. I didn't know anybody in Kent. So I talked to this guy for a bit, and I thought bloody, he's casing the joint. He's a burglar, you know. He just waved this bit of green card at me. So I went straight down to the police station and I said, “look, there's somebody doing something”. You know. They showed me one of these badges. I said, “well I don't think it was like that”. But then, when I went for this, um, Positive Vetting, they pulled out a thing like a bloody telephone directory, full of all my conversations on the phone.

Nicholson: What year was this?

Smith: 1980. I thought, “what are these people playing at”. I mean, what are they looking at me for. I mean, I said to this, um, guy, “look, ask me any questions you like”. I mean, what's he trying to play at. I mean, I'm not trying to hide anything, but ...

Nicholson: You told them then, that you were a member of the Communist Party?

Smith: Yeah, well they, I was trying to keep it quiet. I ...

Nicholson: Had you ever previously said that you were not then?

Smith: Well I had. Yes, I was trying to hide it. But that was for my own benefit, I thought. I don't want to get involved in losing my job, or being at risk. I thought, “if they don't know about it, why should I say anything”. And that's the last time I'll be untruthful about it, because I can't see the point in covering up something.

Nicholson: So you saw this man walking around, and you say you're a good neighbour. Who did you talk to about that?

Smith: Well just the wife. I mean, he wandered off.

Nicholson: You didn't speak to your neighbours about it then?

Smith: Well, I said to my wife. No, no, not the neighbours, but ...

Nicholson: Did you go to the police?

Smith: It wasn't that. It didn't look that serious.

Nicholson: Anything else that you saw in the last few weeks, that made you particularly uncomfortable?

Smith: Well, I can't say, honestly I can't say. I mean, I've been quite happy. Because leaving my last job has been a bit horrendous to me. I mean, I had a lot of good friends there, and I intend to keep in touch with them now I've left. But yeah, I've been going through a lot of trauma with that. I've been trying to get a job, and the one - I've got a temporary job that starts this coming Monday - that's the only thing I've got that's definite, and I think, well, that 3 month job is going to keep me ticking over until I've got, um, a permanent job, or it may just see me up until the time I go to New Zealand, if I definitely go. So, I've gone through a bad patch, and I didn't need all this.

Nicholson: Ok, can we ask you to read through these notes. They are the account of the circumstances, from the time of your arrest, to the time of your arrival at the police station. Could you read through them and say, you're signing to say you've seen them, not necessarily that you agree with them. Do you understand?

Smith: I didn't know that you had actually read them out.

Pepe: Well, what I want also is that, you're not going to rip them up, or anything like that. Yeah. Now that you are ...

Smith: I've got no interest in being un-cooperative. I want cooperation, and as fast as possible.

Pepe: As you've said though, your mood is slightly different, isn't it, to what it was earlier. This is the first chance we've had to sit down together, and for you to read this.

Smith: I've got nothing against you guys. I mean, you're doing your job.

Pepe: Ok. What happens is that the Inspector writes down what you say, when you've been arrested. He was doing this in the car. Ok, and, er, if the Inspector would like to read it to you.

Nicholson: You were arrested at 9:38 this morning, and cautioned. You said then, "What's going on, I don't want my neighbours to see".

Smith: Well, I was embarrassed. I didn't know what was going on. I was thinking about other people.

Pepe: Could you endorse that?

Nicholson: Could you endorse that?

Smith: Yeah, but I don't, I think that was a misleading thing I said. I mean, I didn't - Ok, you can twist that; you can twist that, and that's not true.

Pepe: We're not here to twist.

Nicholson: We're not here to twist anything. This is why we're showing it to you.

Smith: See - what the point about that is - I'm standing there thinking, “who are these guys. They're saying something to me that sounds serious”. I've got, my wife's about to go out to the back man - I don't want her to see it. I don't want the neighbours to see it. You know, that's what worried me. I was shocked about being in this predicament, and other people going to ... Because I don't like being a spectacle in public. I never have done.

Pepe: That's what was recorded, and that's our job, Michael.

Smith: Can I change that and say ...

Nicholson: You can't change it.

Pepe: You can't change what's been said. Make an explanation about it, yeah. To say what you would have meant that to mean. Say on this tape now.

Nicholson: Say now what your explanation would be.

Pepe: Well what did you mean by that? Is that the embarrassment?

Smith: I hate embarrassment. I've always said that to my wife, when she embarrasses me in public. It's the worst thing that could happen to me. I mean, I hate being embarrassed in public.

Nicholson: But you knew we were police officers?

Smith: Well, you said so, but, I mean, I was doubting it, because I couldn't see a police car anywhere, and I wondered if you really were. You didn't show me any badge, did you? I don't remember, did you?.

Nicholson: I was holding it out to you when I approached you.

Smith: Well I didn't see it.

Pepe: You looked shocked anyway. So ...

Smith: Well I was surprised, because, as I say, I was fast asleep only half an hour earlier, or so.

Pepe: Ok. Well, could you just. I've signed there. Ok. Er, the time that this was being shown to me. What I ask is that you sign here, also, Ok, to say that at least you've seen it.

Smith: Well how's this going to be used I don't like. It makes it sound like I'm embarrassed about the neighbours, because I've done something wrong. I mean, it's not like that at all.

Pepe: So you decline to sign.

Smith: I will certainly. And that's not because, um, I'm being awkward. It's because my job is that you get everything exactly right, or you don't do it at all.

Pepe: So you're saying that's not exactly right?

Smith: I might have said it. I think the way it's written is misleading, because you didn't ask me to say anything more than that.

Nicholson: I cautioned you.

Smith: Yeah. Well, you know, if you'd said let's discuss it a bit. I mean, I'm quite open, I'm not trying to hide anything.

Pepe: Well, Ok.

Smith: I'm not going to have it misleading, that I'm embarrassed because the neighbours are going to see it, and I'm embarrassed because I'm being arrested.

Nicholson: Ok, that's fine.

Smith: Do you know what the reason is?

Pepe: Well, from what that I get there is embarrassment. That's what I get from that. That is what was said. Ok. I know that to be true. Ok. That's why I've signed it. What we'll do now, er, we'll conclude this interview, um. What we'll do, we'll go in the Custody Office, which is downstairs, and you can read through our notes in the presence of us and the Custody Officer. Um, what will happen then, er, you will be re-interviewed by an officer who is in charge of us, about this, and, er, hopefully, this matter can be resolved as quickly as possible.

Smith: Well, as soon as possible, 'cause I've got to start that job on Monday and ...

Pepe: I do ask you if you can keep calm. Ok. Don't wind yourself up, as you did before.

Smith: I am calm. I think I am calm, now. But I'm on the edge, because I'm meant to go to Sainsbury's this afternoon. God knows how the cats are going to get fed.

Pepe: Ok. This is a form, which on the corner it says 987. That relates to how you can have access to this tape. Ok.

Smith: Well, I don't need the tape. Look ...

Nicholson: No, this is what my job is, conducting this. You must listen to this.

Pepe: It is quite important that you do understand it, yeah, that this is a form which will explain how you can get the tape. It's yours to keep. When I turn the machine off - the tape machine - very shortly, Ok, I will ask you to sign here to endorse this label. One of the tapes will be sealed forever. Ok. So it won't be opened unless a judge or magistrate orders it to be opened. So it's a true record that we can all refer to. Ok. Exactly what happened into this room. Ok. Is there anything you wish to add?

Nicholson: Right. I must stress to you, that you were invited at the opening of this interview to have legal, free legal, representation. There will be further interviews. You've heard the nature of the offence for which you've been arrested. It is a very serious offence. I strongly recommend to you that you have legal representation present.

Smith: But what good's it going to do me. I don't want to get involved in some long case. I mean the thing is ...

Nicholson: It does you good. It protects your interests. Your interests must be protected.

Smith: Well solicitors are about spending money, and I don't want to get involved in it.

Nicholson: Free legal advice. Free At no cost to yourself.

Smith: Ok, Ok. I'll see somebody if you insist, but I don't want it to delay the course of this.

Nicholson: No. You are saying now that you would like to.

Smith: Look, Ok, Yeah, I'll go along with it, because you're offering it. I'll go along with it. I don't want to spend any money. I don't want to spend a lot of money on this, because I've got to save up. So what I want to do is see the solicitor, but as long as it's not going to cost any time. It's all, time is the essence.

Pepe: Well, the most important thing is that you are represented. You've got somebody here for your interests.

Smith: Yes, I don't want them to drag it out and say we're going to go into some long ... I don't want any long, drawn out ...

Nicholson: No, no, no. It will take as long. The following interviews will take as long as it takes the solicitor to attend this police station.

Smith: Ok. Can you, how long will that take.

Nicholson: And have private representation with you. We will address that point with the Custody Officer, when this interview concludes.

Smith: Ok. Can I see that this guy who's in a suit, who keeps coming in and saying that he's going to be in 5 minutes, an hour, or something, and he just never turns up, because he's the one who ...

Nicholson: Who's that?

Smith: I don't know, MacLeod is it? Is he the one? You mentioned, I don't know, the guy in the suit. He's got a big ‘heavy' with him.

Nicholson: The guy in a suit. The blue suit.

Smith: Yeah.

Nicholson: That's Mr McLeod.

Pepe: That's Mr MacLeod. Yeah, not the big guy, sorry. No.

Nicholson: Would you like to see Mr McLeod?

Smith: Well, if he's the one who's sort of, got me in this mess, then I'd like to see him and sort it out.

Pepe: He's the officer in charge.

Nicholson: The officer in charge of the investigation.

Smith: All this has been about. Why I'm getting angry is because he won't talk to me.

Nicholson: Ok.

Pepe: Well he's not allowed to talk to you Michael, unless it's in circumstances like this.

Smith: Ok, well, let's do it.

Pepe: That's why he would decline to answer any of your questions.

Nicholson: The only point that we needed in this interview, was to establish, er, whether you were prepared to sign, having heard the account, make any comments about it, and to get your representation.

Smith: Ok. My representation, if that's what you call it, as long as I can see Mr McLeod as soon as possible, and get this mess sorted out.

Nicholson: Right, we will set that all up.

Smith: Because I want to get home. I've got things to do.

Pepe: I've nothing further to add, and I take it you don't gentlemen. The time is now 3:30, coming up to 3:31 in the afternoon. This interview is now concluded, and I'll switch the machine off.

INTERVIEW 2 ~ TAPE 2

Person interviewed: Michael John Smith

Place of interview: Paddington Green Police Station

Date of interview: 8th August 1992

Time commenced: 17:50Time concluded: 18:17

Other persons present:

Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod

Detective Sergeant Stephen John Beels

Richard Jefferies (Duty Solicitor)

Beels: This interview is being tape-recorded. I am Detective Sergeant Beels from Special Branch, New Scotland Yard. The other officer present is:

MacLeod: I'm Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod from Special Branch at New Scotland Yard.

Beels: And you are sir:

Smith: My name is Michael Smith of Kingston upon Thames.

Beels: And you are sir:

Jefferies: My name is Richard Jefferies, Duty Solicitor from Tuckers Solicitors.

Beels: We are in the Interview Room, No. 2 at Paddington Green Police Station. At the end of this interview I'll give you a form explaining your rights of access to a copy of the tape. The date is 8th August and the time is now 5:50 pm. I must caution you Mr Smith, you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be given in evidence. Do you understand?

Smith: Yes I do.

Beels: Do you agree that the tapes were unsealed in your presence?

Smith: Yes I do.

Beels: You are entitled to free legal advice, and indeed you have your solicitor here present with you. Is that correct?

Smith: That's correct.

MacLeod: Mr Smith, you realise the reason you were brought here to this police station today? It's already been fully explained to you?

Smith: No, it has not.

MacLeod: Well let me once again remind you. You've been brought to the police station, on suspicion of having committed an offence under Section 1 of the Official Secrets Act 1911, in that you communicated classified intelligence to a hostile agency. Do you understand the gist of what I am saying?

Smith: I understand the gist of it. I don't understand the details or what this really means in practice.

MacLeod: Right, I would like to begin by talking about what you did today. Can you just explain to me what you did this morning, and just talk me through stage by stage.

Smith: I'm not sure I should answer that. Um, I've already discussed this with the other officers what happened this morning. All I will say is: I was going out to get a newspaper and, er, 2 police officers arrested me, and he said more or less what you've said today. That's as much as I know of this event, or what you are talking about now.

MacLeod: Right. Let's just simplify matters. Can you just describe to me what you did from the time you got up this morning, to the time that you were actually detained by the police officers?

Smith: I made love to my wife this morning.

MacLeod: I don't think that's ...

Smith: Well that's more relevant to me than what you're discussing now.

MacLeod: Can you tell me what happened after that?

Smith: I went out to get a newspaper.

MacLeod: Before you went out.

Smith: I don't understand?

MacLeod: Right, Ok. So you went out. Did you go directly to the newsagent's?

Smith: No, I walked round the block I think.

MacLeod: Can you describe to me the route you took?

Smith: No I can't. Not exactly.

MacLeod: You've lived in the area for many years.

Smith: Well, I was half asleep.

MacLeod: You must have known. You don't just wander round the area without knowing where you're going.

Smith: I took a short walk, and I bought a newspaper. That's all.

MacLeod: What I'm asking you is just to describe to me the route that you took to the newsagent's? I mean, that's not too much to ask.

Smith: Well I didn't take a direct route, if that's what you mean.

MacLeod: Can you tell me what route you did take?

Smith: Well what has this got to do with this interview?

MacLeod: Well, it's got a lot to do with it. Would you please answer my question?

Smith: I'm not sure I should answer this, because I don't understand the question.

MacLeod: I'm trying to clarify what your movements were, from the time that you got up this morning, to the time that you were detained. Now, would you please tell me what route you took to the newsagent's?

Smith: I don't think I should make any comment, because I don't understand the basis of this question. It seems trivial to me.

MacLeod: Well it might sound trivial to you Mr Smith, but I suggest it's certainly not that to me, and I would like you just to tell me, unless you've got something to hide.

Smith: I've got nothing to hide.

MacLeod: If you haven't, then will you please tell me what route you took to the newsagent's?

Smith: Is something supposed to have happened on the way to the newsagent's?

MacLeod: I'm not suggesting ...

Smith: Well I think you are. I think you're suggesting that ...

MacLeod: Please don't digress from the point. Will you please tell me what route you took. I don't think this is too hard a question to answer. We're talking about this morning, from the time that you left your house. I want you to tell me what route you took. Now I don't think that is an unreasonable question.

Smith: I think I'd better not comment on this.

Beels: Mr Smith, your house is on the corner, is it not, of Burton Road and Park Farm Road?

Smith: That's correct.

Beels: Now, when you came out of your front door, which direction would you have gone this morning?

Smith: I'm not going to comment on that.

MacLeod: What prompted you to leave your house this morning?

Smith: I wanted to go and get a newspaper. I think this is so trivial, I mean, I thought we were here to discuss some matters of security.

MacLeod: We are, and it's up to you to what extent you're prepared to co-operate with us, but I don't think you're being quite straight with us.

Smith: Well I want to co-operate fully, but …

MacLeod: Right, that's it then.

Smith: The implications here, are that you are not giving me the information which you are obviously basing this on, and any answers I give are bound to be perhaps misconstrued later on.

MacLeod: The reason you have your solicitor here is to safeguard any misconstruction that might be put on anything that you say … (Smith intervenes)

Smith: Well, I think anything to do with my movements this morning, or matters that you have in your possession that I have no sight of, I think all this is possibly going to make it more difficult for me to explain myself later on. I'd much rather you give me the evidence - we can discuss it.

MacLeod: Mr Smith, I'm going to ask you once again, please tell me - it's not too much of a hard question to answer - what route you went from your home ...

Smith: I wanted to co-operate with you this morning. You wouldn't talk to me. Now I think it's my turn to Say: “it's your turn to give me some information before I co-operate with you”. I'm sorry.

MacLeod: Listen, we're leading this enquiry Mr Smith. You're here to help us. You're here as a private citizen to help police investigating.

Smith: Tell me how I can help you, and I'll try.

MacLeod: Well, this is the very point I'm trying to make. I want you to tell me what route you took, from the time that you left your home this morning, to the time that you were detained by police.

Smith: I'm not prepared to discuss this matter any further.

MacLeod: Is there something that … (Smith intervenes)

Smith: Nothing happened.

MacLeod: Well, in that case … (Smith intervenes)

Smith: And if you've been following my movements, you know nothing happened, because I was just walking. I didn't do anything. I didn't talk to anyone.

MacLeod: Well, in that case, there's no reason why you shouldn't be prepared to tell us precisely what happened when you left home this morning. If you feel that nothing's been done, and you suggest we've been watching you, then ...

Smith: But I think you have been watching me. I think, er …

MacLeod: Well, why don't you be candid, and tell us what you did this morning.

Smith: Well, if you've been watching me, you should know. I mean, I would like to comment on matters which you have got me here for, not to as to where I buy my newspapers, or where I might go for a walk in the morning. I think this is of no consequence to me at all, or to you.

MacLeod: Well, I suggest this is highly relevant to the very point I'm trying to make, and some of the points I'm trying to establish. Now, do you feel that there is something in your behaviour this morning, that's unreasonable for you to answer?

Smith: Unreasonable, in what way?

MacLeod: Well, I'm asking you. I'm asking you the question. For you to tell me.

Smith: No. I want you to tell me what you think was unreasonable, then I can answer it in a logical way.

MacLeod: Well, I don't think there was. I just want you to ...

Smith: Well, Ok. I went for a walk, and I bought a newspaper. I see no - there's no other interest in what I did this morning, before these 2 people came in and picked me up off the street.

MacLeod: Right, Ok. Well, if you're not going to tell me what route you took, can I just go back to the, er, to the point before you left the house. We've been talking to your wife, and we've been receiving information from her. I can't imagine that she would be telling us lies.

Smith: No, I shouldn't think so.

MacLeod: No. Did you receive any telephone calls?

Smith: I received a telephone call.

MacLeod: From whom?

Smith: God knows. It was somebody who, er, I think it was a wrong number. A foreign guy, um, who I understand was, er, he'd mistaken me for somebody else. I just humoured him and put the phone down.

Smith: Is there any more?

MacLeod: I want you to think about that question again Mr Smith. I want you to reflect on it just for a minute … (Smith intervenes)

Smith: I don't need to reflect, there's nothing.

MacLeod: Did you answer my question?

Smith: You don't have access to my phone, so how do you know if there was any calls anyway. My wife might have said there was a phone call; somebody asked for me, I spoke to, to some guy who I'd never spoken to before. I must add that, and he was talking some mumbo jumbo and, I ...

MacLeod: You're a liar. You are a liar. Your wife has told us that you got a telephone call this morning from a man called George, at the Lab.

Smith: I told a cock and bull story, because I didn't know who the guy was, and I didn't want to upset her.

MacLeod: Why should a wrong number, a wrong ...

Smith: Because we'd just been making love. Actually, we'd been disturbed twice that morning. The postman knocked; she ran downstairs; she came back up again. I don't like being disturbed while I'm making love, and it was a bloody nuisance. Now, who this guy was, who called, I've no idea. I just humoured him and said, “Yeah George he's somebody I worked with”. Why should I lie to my wife about it, apart from just to keep it ... (MacLeod intervenes)

MacLeod: Well, I can't imagine, I can't imagine if it was a misdirected phone call, why you would wish to say to your wife, it was a George. Why could you not just have said it was a wrong number.

Smith: I don't know who George is.

MacLeod: This is what you're telling me.

Smith: Well, if you want to make something of this point, then what, what is it about this phone call that upsets ...

MacLeod: I'm not going to leave this point.

Smith: I'm glad you're not.

MacLeod: I want you to tell me frankly, and honestly, the nature of this call from this man George?

Smith: The nature of the call was, he was, um, I can't remember the exact words, er, something about, um ...

MacLeod: What did he say? Can you remember? Did you answer the telephone?

Smith: No, my wife answered the phone.

MacLeod: Right, Ok, she answered the telephone. What did the man say to your wife?

Smith: She didn't say, she just said it's somebody asking for me, I thought. Surely this isn't an important point.

MacLeod: If it was somebody asking for you, if it was somebody asking for you, how could that possibly be a misdirected phone call?

Smith: Maybe it was somebody who had got my name from the phone book, or something.

MacLeod: Come on. Come on. Stop messing about.

Smith: Why should I be messing about?

MacLeod: You're wasting our time.

Smith: Look, if you want to go on in this manner, then perhaps we should stop the interview here, but if you want to discuss the matters that you have got me here for, which I thought was far more important.

MacLeod: I think quite honestly, this is central to the very point of ...

Smith: How is it central, if somebody phones me up at home?

MacLeod: Well, I'm, I'm, I'm establishing quite clearly your dishonesty in this particular point. Firstly, you said that you received a misdirected phone call. Then you tell me that your wife answered the telephone to a man, a foreign sounding, a foreign accented male who asked for you by name, and you're telling me that that was a misdirected call.

Smith: Well I, I told my wife that perhaps he sounded German, I don't know who he was.

MacLeod: But you've just told me, you've just told me that he told …

Smith: Told you what?

MacLeod: Well, you've just told me that the telephone call, that you received, was misdirected. It was a wrong number.

Smith: I thought it might have been.

MacLeod: Your wife has told us, that the telephone call was from a man named George.

Smith: Yeah, because I said to her “Oh, I think it's some guy I used to work with, at, um ...”

MacLeod: But he asked for you by name.

Smith: Well, I don't know how he got my number. How on earth could I be expected to know who's on the other end of the line? I've never heard the guy from Adam, you know. How on earth do I know who this chap is, I mean …?

MacLeod: But did he or did he not ask for you by name?

Smith: I think he did, but I don't know, you'll have to speak to my wife, because I ....

MacLeod: Well we have spoken to your wife.

Smith: Well, what did she say? I don't know. Did she say that?

MacLeod: I just said a few moments ago. There was a telephone call from a man named, a man named George.

Smith: George, well so it was.

MacLeod: And that the caller asked for Michael Smith.

Smith: There's a load of, er, Smith's.

MacLeod: What Michael Smith's?

Smith: There's another one down the road where I live, actually.

MacLeod: Come on.

Smith: If he's still there. Yes there was. Because we had some friends, er, who tried to contact us in the past, who got this other guy down the road.

MacLeod: If you've got nothing to hide Mr Smith.

Smith: Well, I'm not. Am I hiding anything? I've been advised not to comment on these matters, but you're making such a, a big thing of trivia, that I thought I was here for something much more serious that I wouldn't have to comment on. But if you want to trivialise the whole matter, then go ahead, but I want to get this sorted out. I've got nothing to hide, and the sooner you can sort it out the better.

MacLeod: When I asked you at the start of this interview, for an account of your movements, of what may have happened to you before you left the house this morning, you omitted to mention the telephone call.

Smith: That's got nothing to do with my movements. The call is ...

MacLeod: No, I asked you, what you did when you got up this morning. You omitted to mention it. I mean …

Smith: I didn't think it was important. Probably forgotten about it. I mean, it was a trivial call, and, er ...

MacLeod: But I come back to this point. If it was a trivial call ...

Smith: Who was this person? Do you know this guy George? I don't know him.

MacLeod: That's the point I'm asking you.

Smith: Well, if …

MacLeod: If he asked for you by name?

Smith: I've had people phone me up before at home, and asked for me by name, and it's been somebody else who they're after, and this guy, because he's foreign, I mean, I just took it that the guy's an idiot, and got the wrong number, and I just humoured him. I mean, who else would, er, because I've had people on the phone before who keep ringing back, and they, they think, er …

Beels: They think what?

Smith: Well, you talk to somebody on the phone, and they get the impression that you're, um, either the person they do want to talk to, or they don't believe you. I had a phone call at 3 o'clock in the morning.

MacLeod: I'm not interested.

Smith: No, no, no. This is very important.

MacLeod: Don't digress, stick to the point.

Smith: This is the point. I'm sorry, this is the point. I spoke to somebody on the phone at 3 o'clock in the morning, who was ringing from Yorkshire, who wanted to speak to somebody who wasn't there. Kept ringing back. I thought, “sod this”, I'm not going to put up with this. So I just, I humoured the guy, and he went away.

MacLeod: Stick to the point of the question being asked of you. I come back again to this telephone call, that you received this morning, which for some reason you chose to ignore, and yet your wife quite willingly volunteered the information in interview without any problem.

Smith: Well, she answered it. She probably remembered it better than I do. I've had a lot of things go wrong today for me.

MacLeod: Well, maybe so, but just answer the point. What was the telephone … What was the nature of the conversation between you and this man George?

Smith: I don't honestly remember all the details. I mean, it was something about, um, something about being urgent. He wanted to see somebody urgently or something. I don't know what that meant.

MacLeod: But if it was a wrong number, why would he enter into any conversation with you?

Smith: I don't know. He might have thought that I was the person he wanted to talk to. I, I …

MacLeod: Well, you were the person, because …

Smith: Was I?

MacLeod: he asked to speak to Michael Smith. So, what you're telling …

Smith: Well, he, he said that because I am. That's my name; I said yes it's me. I didn't know who he was. Perhaps you know who he is, but I don't know. I say, I've never heard that, that, er, voice before. And that, that is the honest truth. I mean, why should I lie about that? I've never heard that man [George] before.

MacLeod: And your wife says that he introduced himself as George.

Smith: Yeah, George who? I don't, I don't know. I don't know the second name or anything.

MacLeod: I want you just to think for a minute on this telephone conversation, because …

Smith: Can we get a move on, to something else.

MacLeod: No, we're not. We are not. I will dwell on this point as long as it takes. I want to know what the nature of that telephone call was this morning.

Smith: I've already told you what the nature of that call was.

MacLeod: Well, you're lying. You are lying through your teeth.

Smith: Thank you very much.

MacLeod: I want you to think again.

Smith: So, what did my wife say, because she wasn't talking to this man. She couldn't say anything. What on earth are you basing this on? Did you get this guy George to phone me up? I think that's what it must be. Because if you know what he said, and I don't even remember it, obviously you're playing cat and mouse with me. I'm sorry, I don't want to be pedantic about this, but I thought I was here to discuss some serious breach of security, and you're discussing a bloody phone call, which has got … you know, it's so trivial it seems ludicrous. See what I'm saying? No, you don't.

MacLeod: I can see what you're saying, but you know, as well as I do, that that's not the truth.

Smith: Well put the cards on the table. Who is this George then? Is he somebody I should know?

MacLeod: He's somebody I would like you to talk to me about, because I'm sure …

Smith: I don't know George. If I knew George, I'd tell you who the guy was. I mean, I don't know, I don't know where he lives, or anything about him.

MacLeod: So what did he say then, when, when he entered into this conversation?

Smith: It wasn't a conversation. It was just a yes, no, yes, no, sort of thing. I didn't discuss anything with him.

MacLeod: So what did he say then, if I can come back to that point? What did he say?

Smith: He said something about, something being urgent, but I couldn't quite understand, because his accent was so bad. That's all. … Come on, we don't want any silence in here. We're wasting tape. I'm sorry, I don't … I wanted to make a ‘no comment' type of interview, and you, you're spoiling it.

MacLeod: Who is, who is Victor?

Smith: Victor? I've got, um, my friend. I have a Spanish friend, who has a son called Victor.

MacLeod: Do you know any other Victors?

Smith: I don't think so. Not, not at the present. I don't know maybe I knew some in the past.

MacLeod: Have you known any Victors in the past?

Smith: Victor. If I did, it was a very long time ago, because I don't remember any other Victors. Victor's not a common name. I don't think it is.

MacLeod: I'm putting it to you, that this telephone conversation this morning, that you had with this man George, concerned somebody called Victor, and I'm putting it to you, that you knew perfectly well who this Victor was, and I further suggest that that was the reason that you left your house this morning.

Smith: I think that is just hypothetical nonsense.

MacLeod: It's not hypothetical.

Smith: Why are we picking up being so damn serious about this. Look, just discuss it.

MacLeod: I will prove evidentially ...

Smith: What is it you're trying to say?

MacLeod: I will prove evidentially.

Smith: What, and what evidence are we talking about?

MacLeod: That's for you to wait and find out. I am telling …

Smith: I am trying to find the ways, can you please present it now.

MacLeod: I'm telling you, I have evidence.

Smith: Evidence of what sort?

MacLeod: I'm just … That's a matter for you to wait and see. I want you to tell me, in your own words, who this Victor is.

Smith: I cannot tell you who this Victor is, because I don't … I … the only Victor I know is the son of a friend of mine, and he's about 15 years old, and I can honestly say there's no other Victor that I can remember for - perhaps since - at University; I might have known a Victor. I can't remember any other Victors.

MacLeod: Well, you're a liar. I know that.

Smith: How often do you find somebody called Victor? You might hear about somebody.

MacLeod: No, it's not a common name. That's why I feel that there's, you know …

Smith: It's not a common name.

MacLeod: an easily recollectable name, and you're telling me, you can't remember the name. Just you wait. Tell me.

Smith: Well, who is this Victor?

MacLeod: That's why I'm asking you. I'm asking you to tell me.

Smith: Well I can't answer you, if you give me no facts to go on. Because I don't know. Are we talking about 20 years ago? Or is it longer?

MacLeod: Are we?

Smith: I don't know.

MacLeod: But I want you to try to recollect, first of all, the nature of this telephone call this morning. I want you to tell me, once again, what was it all about?

Smith: I don't know what it was about, because the guy didn't make it clear. I mean, it was just, er, the meanderings of an idiot, I thought. I mean, the guy just waffled on about something, and I just said yes, no, yes, no, or something like that, and put the phone down. Well, I can answer the phone how I damn well please, it's my phone.

MacLeod: Of course you can, course you can, but what has not been clear from this interview is the reason why you chose, in the first instance, to ignore that you received a telephone call this morning, and secondly ...

Smith: I did not.

MacLeod: and secondly …

Smith: I want this on record. I did not ignore that point. You were the one who raised it.

MacLeod: Yes?

Smith: Why should I discuss every phone ... I told you, on my way, I made love to my wife this morning, and isn't that more important to a man? Is it not?

MacLeod: It's not a … it's not a subject I particularly feel that is relevant to this enquiry.

Smith: Well I think it's very important, because I'm a living person. I'm not a machine that answers questions like a robot. I did the things I felt like doing this morning, and I did them, and I was prevented in doing anything further by these 2 guys, who picked me up for whatever reason, which you won't give me.

MacLeod: Right. Let's go back to the telephone conversation.

Smith: What else can I tell you about?

MacLeod: What, what were you asked to do?

Smith: I wasn't asked to do anything.

MacLeod: You're a liar.

Smith: Am I?

MacLeod: You are, and I'll prove it.

Smith: You can prove what you damn well please. I, I have no record of that phone call.

MacLeod: Answer, answer the question. What were you … what was the nature of the conversation, and what were you going to do when you left the house this morning?

Smith: When I left the house this morning, I was going to get a newspaper.

MacLeod: And for some reason, or other, you can't remember what route you took.

Smith: No. I said I wasn't going to discuss it, because I didn't know why you were asking that question.

MacLeod: Well, I mean, if you want …

Smith: If I knew why you were asking that question, I would tell you. I've got no, no reason to hide it.

MacLeod: But it seems to me, to be highly illogical.

Smith: No, it's very logical.

MacLeod: If you, if you've got nothing …

Smith: If you, if you … Look, if you talk to people as much as I do, you realise how much logic you have to use in conversation to get what you want from them, and I don't believe that the way you're asking these questions is getting to the truth. If you want me to respond in the way that's going to give you something, and me something, out of this interview, then I presume you should ask the questions that, that make it logical for me to answer them. You're asking me questions without giving me the facts. Why should I, why should because I'm only here on a so-called serious charge, or whatever it might be.

MacLeod: Listen, you don't expect for one minute, that I'm going to put all my cards on the table at once.

Smith: Well don't, so I won't do either. Listen, if you want to play the game this way …

MacLeod: Look, you're the one …

Smith: we'll stay here all night.

MacLeod: You're the one, you're the one that's here to answer questions, concerning a very serious matter.

Smith: And you won't tell me why.

MacLeod: It's up to you, if you feel that ...

Smith: No, it's not up to me, it's up to you. You're the one controlling this interview.

MacLeod: You have an obligation to ...

Smith: Please, ask me the questions that will enable me to answer …

MacLeod: Right.

Smith: in the way you want.

MacLeod: Right, let's go back to the beginning again. Mr Smith, tell me what you did, from the time you got up this morning?

Smith: Every last detail?

MacLeod: Every.

Smith: Ok. Right. I got up. The wife said, er, she, she was hungry, or she was thirsty. She wanted a cup of coffee, right. So I got up, and I made a cup of coffee, and I made a bowl of cornflakes - the crunchy nut ones that I like - and we sat down, and we had some cornflakes, etc, and we made love. Now, I think that's quite normal. I, I'm not ashamed of that. Then we, er, we were sitting there talking about things. I can't remember in detail what it was about. Honestly, I can't remember, because it was just what a wife and husband talk about when they wake up in the morning, and then the phone went. I don't know what time it was, about 10 to 9 or 5 to 9, something like that. I can't remember. I didn't look at the clock, but it was shortly before my wife was due to get up, because she had to go to a back appointment. An osteopath. Right - the phone went - my wife answered the phone, and there was a conversation with somebody. She said, “I think he wants to talk to you”, and then I'm not clear exactly what the guy said. It was some, some, I couldn't understand him entirely, because it was, er, I'm not sure if it was indistinct the way he was talking, but I'm sure I asked him to repeat something, but it was a bit of nonsense which I, I didn't understand the connection with me. But I humoured him, as I said before. Then, um, we started getting ready. My wife said she, um, we discussed something about my wife's earlier schooling, the friend she had at school.

MacLeod: Can we go back to the telephone conversation. Can you tell me again what the nature of the conversation was? Your wife answered the telephone, she said ...

Smith: I don't know what the guy said to her, because you'll have to ask her that.

MacLeod: Yes we've done that.

Smith: Yes, and all she told me was that somebody called George. I don't know George, I don't know. Actually, I thought there was a George I used to work with years ago. I can't remember another George though. Again, it's not somebody I know of - I don't know of somebody called George at the moment – and, er, I don't remember much about the call. I mean, she, she said “I think he wants you”. I just discussed something with him, which was trivia as far as I can remember. Why, I remember something, something being very urgent. I thought well, Ok, it might be urgent for him.

MacLeod: So you're saying now, that he wanted to discuss something with you?

Smith: Well, I don't know, I don't remember the … how can I remember details of the conversation that I barely remember. Am I saying too much here. I mean, I think this guy's leading me up the garden path.

Beels: We're coming to the end of this tape.

Smith: You can change tapes.

Beels: Which I'm going to turn over now. The time is 6:17.

INTERVIEW 2 ~ TAPE 3

Person interviewed: Michael John Smith

Place of interview: Paddington Green Police Station

Date of interview: 8th August 1992

Time commenced: 18:19Time concluded: 18:41

Other persons present:

Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod

Detective Sergeant Stephen John Beels

Richard Jefferies (Duty Solicitor)

Beels: The time is 6:19. This is an interview between Detective Superintendent MacLeod and Mr Smith. Interview continues.

MacLeod: Mr Smith, if I can just go back to this, er, this point again …

Smith: What point, what point is that?

MacLeod: Concerning the telephone conversation this morning. Your wife received the telephone call.

Smith: The phone went. My wife picked it up.

MacLeod: Yes.

Smith: I didn't say she received the call at all.

MacLeod: Well, if she picked it up, she received it. But she answered the telephone, and she said it was for you. Is that correct?

Smith: I think that's what she said.

MacLeod: What else did she say?

Smith: I think she said, "I think it's a guy called George", or something.

MacLeod: It's a guy called George. Did that immediately register with you?

Smith: No, it didn't.

MacLeod: Right, Ok. So you picked up the telephone, and you spoke to George.

Smith: Well, if that's what his name is, I don't know if that's what his name was. I can't …

MacLeod: A man introduced himself as George.

Smith: A man who said he was called George. Yes.

MacLeod: Right, Ok, Ok. What did George say to you?

Smith: I don't remember all the details, but he said something about …

MacLeod: Can we just, just. I'd rather take just a minute to reflect on it.

Smith: Well, I can't give you details, because it was so - um, it was over in a flash - and I, I don't remember …

MacLeod: Right, Ok.

Smith: what was said exactly. All I can give you is the gist of the conversation.

MacLeod: Right, let's see if we can go just here.

Smith: All I remember, from the conversation, was that it was somebody - he sounded like he was in some sort of trouble.

He said, I, um, I can't remember what word I used before that he said. Urgent, or something like that. He sounded like he was in trouble. Could I meet him, or something like that, I don't know. I don't know what was said. I think that was all there was. I mean, I don't remember there being any, …

MacLeod: I think …

Smith: any sort of discussion about who George was, or ...

MacLeod: Well, maybe there was no discussion as to who George was, but did he make any reference to anything else, or anybody else?

Smith: Oh God. How do I, I don't, I don't remember him saying very much. It was, it was over in such a short time. I, I can't give you information that I can't remember. I'm sorry.

MacLeod: Right. I could understand if that was a fairly lengthy conversation, but ...

Smith: It wasn't a lengthy, lengthy ...

MacLeod: I could understand if you couldn't remember the detail. But, I mean, this was over in a flash, and you can't remember what ...

Smith: Well I, I was half asleep. I wasn't really interested in the, what the guy had to say. I mean, what other excuse can I give. I mean, if I could remember word for word, if I had a photographic memory - great - but I don't have that sort of memory. I can only give you the flavour of the conversation, which was, was something about this guy being in trouble. I don't know what trouble he was in, he didn't describe it.

MacLeod: Who was in trouble, George was in trouble?

Smith: George was in trouble, I think. Whoever George was.

MacLeod: Why should he ring you to say he was in trouble?

Smith: I don't … Because he got the wrong name, I guess. I don't know. What, what can I say to the guy. I was half asleep. I'd just been making love to my wife. What do you expect me to say to him? I mean, I, I'm not going to have a very philosophical conversation with a guy when I really want to get back to my wife and her problems. She had a back appointment this morning. I hope she went there.

MacLeod: I will repeat once again. What was, what was said to you on the telephone by George?

Smith: I've described to you in as much detail as I can.

MacLeod: But you haven't.

Smith: If I could give you more detail I would, but I, I'm sorry I can't. I mean, I'm not avoiding the question, I'm not trying to, er, keep anything back. I'm just telling you what I remember of the conversation. It was so, um, it was so trivial and so, er, done so quickly, how can I possibly remember more than that? I told you, what I'd said. I said yes, no, that sort of thing. I don't think I actually discussed anything with him.

MacLeod: I suggest you did.

Smith: Did I?

MacLeod: Well, he certainly made …

Smith: How do you know I discussed. I don't think I did discuss anything with him. How could you possibly know that, unless George was somebody that you've asked to ring me up. I don't know. I, I presume this is all about the job for Ferranti, isn't it? Is it? You're trying me out, that's what you're doing, isn't it?

MacLeod: Tell me about the telephone conversation.

Smith: Is this Positive Vetting?

MacLeod: We'll come back to that in just a moment.

Smith: Ok.

MacLeod: Talk to me about your telephone conversation.

Smith: I had a telephone conversation with, er, a guy called George, who I don't know, and he discussed something with me, which, er, basically was about him being in trouble, or something being urgent, and I ... That's all I remember.

MacLeod: He, you're right. Who was in trouble? Was George in trouble?

Smith: I think George was in trouble. I don't know why. I think he had …

MacLeod: Well, why did he want to discuss it with you?

Smith: Because … I don't know. I think perhaps, either somebody gave him the wrong number, or maybe, er, maybe he looked up in the book and got it wrong - I don't know. But I mean, if I knew George, I'd tell you who he was. I'm quite serious about that. I, I do not know who George was. The only George I can remember is a George I knew 12 or 13 years ago, and it certainly wasn't him.

MacLeod: So George rang you this morning and said he was in trouble?

Smith: No, He didn't say he was in trouble. I said, I think he was in trouble. The way he …

MacLeod: Yes.

Smith: he sounded.

MacLeod: What words did George use?

Smith: Well he sounded, you know, like these foreigners, a bit …

MacLeod: What words did he use?

Smith: I don't remember, but it was something about it's urgent. You know, something about … I don't, I think, I don't think he actually said trouble. I think that's my word. I, I got the feeling he was in trouble, the way he was talking. I'm sorry, if I could say more than that I would, but what can I tell you?

MacLeod: I think you can say more than that, but your, your memory is quite convenient. When it suits yourself, you can remember.

Smith: I don't like being accused of being a liar. If you'll, if you think I'm lying then tell me what, what I'm not saying, and I'll, I'll put you right.

MacLeod: No, that's what I want you to tell me. I'm giving you ...

Smith: I've told you. Look, this point. Can I … Look, this is ridiculous. I had a conversation with a man I don't know. I, I talked gibberish to him, like he talked gibberish to me, and we finished, and that was the end of it. Now, what on earth can I have in common with George. I don't even know who George is. I, I can't stop people ringing me up at home.

MacLeod: Right, Ok If we accept you don't know who George is ...

Smith: That's absolutely true. I mean, I do not know who George is.

MacLeod: Right, Ok, Ok.

Smith: If George is his real name. I don't know if it is.

MacLeod: So you didn't know who the caller was. That's what you're saying to me.

Smith: That's absolutely it. You've got it in a nutshell.

MacLeod: But the caller did speak to you, and discuss with you ...

Smith: I don't think he discussed anything with me.

MacLeod: Or that he …

Smith: He made a few statements.

MacLeod: He made a, yes, he made a statement.

Smith: And I said yes, no, yes, no, as far as I know.

MacLeod: Well, how would, how would you make a statement saying yes, no, yes, no?

Smith: Because I was half asleep. I'd been making love to my wife. I wasn't interested in talking to anybody.

MacLeod: You were half asleep, and you just tell me you've made love to your wife. I mean, if you've made love to your wife, and you're half asleep ...

Smith: Well I was tired. I was tired and I …

MacLeod: Well I think you're, you're hedging, you're hedging the issue here.

Smith: But what has that got, what has my personal relationships with my wife …

MacLeod: I'm not interested in that, but I'm just trying to ...

Smith: But it's very relevant to this discussion, because you're talking about something that overlapped with love-making with my wife.

MacLeod: I'm …

Smith: I, I object to you making it sound like it's trivial, and I can just pick up the phone and talk to somebody as though I'm at the office on a Monday morning. It's not like that, making love, if you've ever made love yourself ...

MacLeod: The point I'm making, the point I'm making is that you're telling me that you were so drowsy, so sleepy ...

Smith: I was sleepy.

MacLeod: That you didn't understand ...

Smith: You ask my wife what I'm like in the morning.

MacLeod: I'm not …

Smith: She'll tell you. She can't get me out of bed in the morning. I'm hardly …

MacLeod: And yet you entered into this conversation?

Smith: It wasn't a conversation, for fuck's sake. I keep telling you. The conversation, as far as it was, on my side, was yes, no or 3 bags full. I didn't have a conversation with this man. Now, if he phoned up for whatever reason, what can I, I can't stop him phoning me. Who is he? If you know who he is, tell me, but I have no clue who this man George is. I'm quite open about this. I, I do not know who George is.