Michael John Smith Police Interviews

The schedule of interviews and interviews (746 pages) original files in Word DOC format:

Date	Interview No.	Tape No.	Times	Page Nos.

8th August 1992	1	1	15:05 – 15:31	1 – 31
	2	2 3	17:50 – 18:17 18:19 – 18:41	32 – 58 59 - 83
	3	4	19:13 – 19:34	84 - 113

9th August 1992	4	5 6 7	14:08 – 14:38 14:40 – 15:07 15:10 – 15:36	114 – 141 142 – 167 168 - 191
	5	8 9 10 11 12	16:15 – 16:43 16:45 – 17:13 17:14 – 17:42 17:44 – 18:12 18:19 – 18:47	192 – 215 216 – 237 238 – 266 267 – 294 295 – 319
	6	13	21:12 – 21:21	320 - 332

10th August 1992	7	14 15	16:57 – 17:24 17:26 – 17:55	333 – 359 360 - 386
	8	16 17	20:19 – 20:47 20:48 – 21:16	387 – 415 416 - 441
	9	18	21:52 – 22:08	442 - 456

11th August 1992	10	19	10:20 – 10:23	457 - 461
	11	20 21	10:26 – 10:54 10:55 – 11:24	462 – 486 487 - 511
	12	22 23	12:21 – 12:50 12:52 – 12:58	512 – 533 534 - 539
	13	24 25	14:54 – 15:21 15:22 – 15:47	540 – 564 565 - 588
	14	26 27 28 29	17:27 – 17:55 17:56 – 17:58 18:00 – 18:29 18:30 – 18:33	589 – 612 613 – 615 616 – 641 642 - 644
	15	30 31 32	20:23 – 20:51 20:52 – 21:20 21:22 – 21:50	645 – 666 667 – 693 694 - 720
	16	33	22:20 – 22:48	721 - 745

INTERVIEW 1 ~ TAPE 1

Pepe: This interview is being tape-recorded. I am Gary Pepe, Detective Sergeant attached to New Scotland Yard. The other officer present is …

Nicholson: Detective Inspector Nicholson, also attached to New Scotland Yard.

Pepe: We are in the interview room of Paddington Police Station. I am interviewing, if you could state your name sir.

Pepe: Lovely, thank you. You are entitled to speak to a solicitor at any time Mr Smith, day or night.

Pepe: Well, I've got to give you the right Michael, it's free of charge and it is your entitlement.

Smith: Well, I don't think this is going to get very much further, so I don't think ...

Pepe: Ok, are you happy to be interviewed without a solicitor at this present moment in time?

Pepe: There is no other person in the room. The date is the 8th August 1992. It is a Saturday. The time by my watch is 5 minutes past 3.

Smith: Well, in which case I'm getting a bit worried about the time, can you. …

Pepe: Ok, so it's 5 minutes past 3. At the conclusion of the interview I will give you a notice, here's a form here, which will explain how you can have access to the tapes which are in the machine at the moment. Ok, so you can have your own copy. When you were arrested you have certain rights.

Smith: Hang on, I didn't think I was arrested. I think you brought me in for questioning, or something.

Pepe: Michael listen to me, what I am saying to you is you have been arrested.

Pepe: When any person is arrested they have certain rights, Ok, the right to say nothing, that is, you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be used as evidence. Now I want you to understand that, that any answer that you give to me is at your own free will.

Smith: Well I don't want this going on the record because I'm trying to go at the moment for, er, citizenship in New Zealand, I want to emigrate.

Pepe: Right. The reason for the delay is the fact that when any person is arrested, all the officers concerned have to make notes about exactly what did occur, and later on I'll show you those notes so that you are exactly clear as to what is being alleged against you.

Smith: Well, I mean, I don't know, you mentioned the charge, I don't know any, what evidence is being presented against me.

Smith: Why wasn't this, didn't come up before, I mean it's never … I think the reason is because I've been after a job.

Smith: Yes it has. I've been after a job for, um, quite a high level job in Ferranti at Milton Keynes, I know they were interested in me.

Smith: The work deals with, um, investigating problems in a company's quality assurance system. I'm an auditor mainly, I travel around different departments discussing, um, administrative details with people about how they keep records, how they organise their project management, and that sort of thing. It is more management of, um, the projects rather than technical details.

Nicholson: Is this any particular, is this with any company you perform that?

Smith: Well, auditor/engineer. I mean, I'm specialising in auditing, which means that I've had to pass an exam, and I'm only a couple of audits off being accredited as an official auditor, so that I could work within a company that gives accreditation to quality systems, such as BS5750, etc.

Smith: Yeah. No, I've been made redundant. I mean, that was a problem. I guess this is what this has come out of. I was made redundant, which happened a week ago yesterday.

Smith: They deal mainly with research for the G.E.C., into materials and a bit of chemistry, and semi-conductors, which has now gone more or less. It's a mixture of projects and I wouldn't like to say they specialise in anything, it's very, um ...

Nicholson: Can I come back and remind you, and really the purpose of this interview was to take you from the time of your arrest, up to the time of your arrival at the police station, and for you to look at the notes that we have compiled since that time.

Nicholson: Well, what I really want you to do is look at these first. Let's get this out of the way ...

Smith: Ok, look, I was walking down the road, I don't know which of you shouted out the window, “are you Michael Smith” - I said “yes”. Why shouldn't I say yes? Next thing I know, somebody's trying to man-handle me and put handcuffs on me. I didn't know if you were police or not. I mean, there's no marked car.

Smith: Yeah, in fact I'd been making love to my wife only minutes before. I mean, she had to go to a back appointment, because she's got a damaged disc, and she has to go to an osteopath once every 3 months or so, I suppose.

Smith: And she was a bit late to get out of that, and I said look, hang on, I'm just going to get a paper and, er, I'll be back in a few minutes.

Smith: Yeah, I walked around and, er, I came back, and that I thought – well, I'd just catch her, because I see her car was there - I thought well, just say hope it goes well, as I was coming back, and then you guys ...

Smith: That's why I didn't want her to see from the window, because I know she needs to relax before she goes to these back appointments, because it's bad for her back.

Nicholson: Ok, can I come back to the other point. What we have here are the notes that we made, compiled from the time that we arrested you, from the time I arrested you, from the - I told you why I was arresting you. Do you remember those words?

Nicholson: I was arresting you for communicating classified information to a hostile agency.

Nicholson: I then pointed out to you that that was an offence against the Official Secrets Act

Nicholson: ... You're not obliged to say anything - and do you remember those words at the time?

Smith: No, I'm quite a determined person. I have to be in my job. It's not the sort of job you can just go and talk to people, and let them get away with murder on their quality systems. I have to be ...

Smith: No, I don't hire and fire people, but I have to get to the answer that I want, and make people do what I want. That's my job, and when I've got guys coming up to me ...

Smith: I'm not even given a chance to discuss it with you. I, er, if you come up to me in the street and said “look, we've got a problem here, can you come down to the station and discuss it”, I would have just got in the car - but it wasn't treated like that, you seem to have the impression I was going to run away or something ...

Pepe: I took by your actions, Michael. I mean, we've never met before, and as you say, your character is rather assertive, and all the rest of it. Well, you would have run away, that's why I ...

Smith: Why should I run away? What for? Where am I going to go? I was going home.

Smith: Well, you know what happened. I play the guitar, and I have to watch my hands.

Smith: And you've got this bloody thing that's- it was so tight, that I could feel it on my bones almost. I said, “look, can you release it, because I'm sitting on this”. I said, “can you release it”, or something like that. Because I wasn't going to jump out of the car, I'm not an idiot.

Nicholson: Can I just draw your attention to ... We've been through these notes, um. Sergeant, if you could just tell Michael Smith, what the point that just triggered, just before he started becoming very violent.

Pepe: To me Michael, I was doing your handcuffs – yeah, and sorting them all out, the metal ones, yeah - because you said they were hurting you, and I can see by the, at the moment now, the reddening and all the rest of it, you've got quite big wrists. But you turn to me, and the look on your face, whereby you said, “you're not the police, I know who you are”.

Smith: Well, who are you, I mean, you're in an unmarked car. I mean, I just stopped in the street. Remember, I'm just, I hadn't been up very long. I was a bit tired.

Smith: God knows who, but I, this comes back to this job at Milton Keynes. I've applied for this job; I'm sure they were considering me; I suppose they won't now, I don't know, because of all this. And I've actually seen people outside I thought, who were watching my house, but it's happened before. I don't know if it's the Special Branch, or who they are. But people, I've seen people actually looking at my house.

Smith: Yes, and that's why I thought it's something to so with that, and I thought this has raised some issue, because I had a security problem in the past which I thought I'd got rid of.

Smith: It was a job that I had - must be 76 to 78 - when I worked for E.M.I. Electronics, and I was working on a very sensitive project there, er, is this, can I talk about things?

Nicholson: Yeah, just talk your way through whatever you think is the cause for it ...

Smith: All this is very relevant, because I think I've lived with this problem for a long time. In the early 70's, after I left university, I got rather interested in left-wing politics, right?

Smith: I, because I had friend who was a Yugoslav, and he was quite persuasive, and we used to share a flat for a short time. He talked to me about politics, and made me think about, well, things maybe not as good as they should be, and all this sort of thing. And, after I left university, I thought, well yeah, maybe he's right, and I got mixed up with a few characters who were in the Communist Party, and I joined the Young Communist League, and I played a role in some of their meetings. It was never serious, from the point of view that I was breaking the law, or doing anything stupid. It was just a phase I went through. I was looking for something I suppose. It's probably sex actually, because I hadn't had much success with girlfriends in the early part of my life, and I thought, well it's a way of meeting people, perhaps doing something a bit different, and it dragged on for 2 or 3 years I think - 74, 75 I left. I got disillusioned with it. It wasn't what I wanted, and it must have been within a year that I got this job at EMI Electronics. Then I know what happened, I mean, somebody has found through the records that I'd been involved in this, and they suddenly got a shock, because I was working on a very sensitive project and suddenly I, it coincided with, I was looking for a course to do.

I was doing an MSc course. I was looking for a project to do on, um, on this course. It was a part of the course.

Smith: It was, well, I shouldn't really discuss it with you, but I don't know if you've been cleared to discuss these things.

Smith: I'm not going to say, I'm not going to - if I'm in here for this reason. I'm not going to get involved in any classified ...

Smith: So, I was involved in this project for the best part of 2 years, and suddenly I was looking for this, um, project. I said, “I need to do this project for this MSc course”, and they said, “Oh, you can't do it here, you have to go to EMI Medical”. And I was given to believe that that was what it was for. I found out afterwards that no, I wasn't going there for that reason, they'd actually kicked me out. Then I got really, you know, curious and angry about it, because I thought, well, what's it's for? Ok, maybe they'd found out about this earlier interest I'd had in left wing politics, but by that time I was married. I had no interest in politics. In fact we were more interested in the Social Democratic Party, my wife and I - in the early days when that started up. And since then I don't really give a damn. I mean, honestly, all I'm interested in is what I think I can do for myself, and that's that.

Nicholson: Ok. Let's come back to the area that you say, for a few weeks ago, you suspected people were looking at you.

Smith: Well, no, I wouldn't have gone for the job, honestly, I mean, it was just ...

Smith: You know what, um, Ferranti's into military radar systems. I mean, it's not, I don't think it is. I mean, who is it going to interest now. There's no threat from abroad. I can't see. But anyway, I guess, because I revealed that I'd been, er, I went through this Positive Vetting system in 1980, to try and clear up this mess from the 70's, and my current job also involved - er, I don't know what level - a very low level I think of security clearance, because I wasn't really doing anything secret, and I just applied for this job, because it had been offered to me as an interview, for Ferranti. I went along and filled in the questionnaire, a security questionnaire. Next thing I know, I was sure that somebody was watching the house, and maybe it's - I'm paranoid - I don't know.

Nicholson: What was the level of security clearance required for that job that you, the one ...?

Nicholson: No. Yes, the one that you say that prompted these persons to start looking at you, or what you believe.

Smith: Well, the one I was going to was, er, I wouldn't say it was top level. I mean, I think radar systems are fairly well known.

Smith: No, I must have had when I was working at EMI Electronics, because ...

Nicholson: And would you have needed the same level for this job, that you were going for?

Nicholson: But you think, that as a result of that application that you've last made, this prompted you to be looked at, in ...?

Smith: Well, it's all happened so suddenly. I mean, I was going along fine. I mean, the wife. I was saying my wife and I have been considering going to New Zealand, because actually I'm sick of the way this country has gone. I mean it, the unemployment. I mean, I've been, the second time I've been made redundant in 6 or 7 years, and I really don't want to spend my life like this. I thought New Zealand would really give us a fresh start. We've made all the opening, er, sort of moves, you know.

Smith: I've got a possible job. I'm going for an interview in September, with a guy who's coming over, visiting this country.

Smith: It's with an organisation called TELARC, which is an auditing organisation. I'm ideally suited to that job, I think, and I've got a good chance of getting it. I'll go, and I'll have a new life there.

Smith: This job at Ferranti. I don't think I would have taken it, if they'd offered it. That's the annoying thing.

Nicholson: You mentioned at first, that you had a Yugoslav friend. Do you think he was the cause of your problems?

Nicholson: Does he now, Ok. Right, let's go back to a few weeks ago. You say you saw persons.

Nicholson: Give us an approximation of the circumstances. Was it at work, was it at home ...?

Smith: I said to my wife. I was looking out of the window, cooking I think. I looked out of the window, saw this guy sort of wandering around. He looked like he didn't know where he was going. But he kept coming back. A couple of times he went past my door.

Must have been 2 weeks ago. I really can't say when it was. It was early evening, about 8 o'clock. It was 8 o'clock, because I remember.

Smith: He just looked like, um, I'd say about 50, rather grey looking sort of person, with a grey suit on.

Nicholson: What about other. You say that as a result of things that you've seen.

Smith: Well, I'm a good neighbour. If I see anything going on outside, that I think's a bit, you know, untoward, I make a comment. In fact, I know what happened back in ‘77, when they were investigating this earlier left-wing interest I'd had. It must have been, they, um, they are Special Branch I suppose. A guy knocked on the door and he said, “Look, we're investigating this crime. It's a theft of antiques in Kent”. And I thought, “who the fuck do I know in Kent”. I didn't know anybody in Kent. So I talked to this guy for a bit, and I thought bloody, he's casing the joint. He's a burglar, you know. He just waved this bit of green card at me. So I went straight down to the police station and I said, “look, there's somebody doing something”. You know. They showed me one of these badges. I said, “well I don't think it was like that”. But then, when I went for this, um, Positive Vetting, they pulled out a thing like a bloody telephone directory, full of all my conversations on the phone.

Smith: 1980. I thought, “what are these people playing at”. I mean, what are they looking at me for. I mean, I said to this, um, guy, “look, ask me any questions you like”. I mean, what's he trying to play at. I mean, I'm not trying to hide anything, but ...

Nicholson: You told them then, that you were a member of the Communist Party?

Smith: Well I had. Yes, I was trying to hide it. But that was for my own benefit, I thought. I don't want to get involved in losing my job, or being at risk. I thought, “if they don't know about it, why should I say anything”. And that's the last time I'll be untruthful about it, because I can't see the point in covering up something.

Nicholson: So you saw this man walking around, and you say you're a good neighbour. Who did you talk to about that?

Nicholson: Anything else that you saw in the last few weeks, that made you particularly uncomfortable?

Smith: Well, I can't say, honestly I can't say. I mean, I've been quite happy. Because leaving my last job has been a bit horrendous to me. I mean, I had a lot of good friends there, and I intend to keep in touch with them now I've left. But yeah, I've been going through a lot of trauma with that. I've been trying to get a job, and the one - I've got a temporary job that starts this coming Monday - that's the only thing I've got that's definite, and I think, well, that 3 month job is going to keep me ticking over until I've got, um, a permanent job, or it may just see me up until the time I go to New Zealand, if I definitely go. So, I've gone through a bad patch, and I didn't need all this.

Nicholson: Ok, can we ask you to read through these notes. They are the account of the circumstances, from the time of your arrest, to the time of your arrival at the police station. Could you read through them and say, you're signing to say you've seen them, not necessarily that you agree with them. Do you understand?

Pepe: Well, what I want also is that, you're not going to rip them up, or anything like that. Yeah. Now that you are ...

Smith: I've got no interest in being un-cooperative. I want cooperation, and as fast as possible.

Pepe: As you've said though, your mood is slightly different, isn't it, to what it was earlier. This is the first chance we've had to sit down together, and for you to read this.

Pepe: Ok. What happens is that the Inspector writes down what you say, when you've been arrested. He was doing this in the car. Ok, and, er, if the Inspector would like to read it to you.

Nicholson: You were arrested at 9:38 this morning, and cautioned. You said then, "What's going on, I don't want my neighbours to see".

Smith: Well, I was embarrassed. I didn't know what was going on. I was thinking about other people.

Smith: Yeah, but I don't, I think that was a misleading thing I said. I mean, I didn't - Ok, you can twist that; you can twist that, and that's not true.

Nicholson: We're not here to twist anything. This is why we're showing it to you.

Smith: See - what the point about that is - I'm standing there thinking, “who are these guys. They're saying something to me that sounds serious”. I've got, my wife's about to go out to the back man - I don't want her to see it. I don't want the neighbours to see it. You know, that's what worried me. I was shocked about being in this predicament, and other people going to ... Because I don't like being a spectacle in public. I never have done.

Pepe: You can't change what's been said. Make an explanation about it, yeah. To say what you would have meant that to mean. Say on this tape now.

Smith: I hate embarrassment. I've always said that to my wife, when she embarrasses me in public. It's the worst thing that could happen to me. I mean, I hate being embarrassed in public.

Smith: Well, you said so, but, I mean, I was doubting it, because I couldn't see a police car anywhere, and I wondered if you really were. You didn't show me any badge, did you? I don't remember, did you?.

Smith: Well I was surprised, because, as I say, I was fast asleep only half an hour earlier, or so.

Pepe: Ok. Well, could you just. I've signed there. Ok. Er, the time that this was being shown to me. What I ask is that you sign here, also, Ok, to say that at least you've seen it.

Smith: Well how's this going to be used I don't like. It makes it sound like I'm embarrassed about the neighbours, because I've done something wrong. I mean, it's not like that at all.

Smith: I will certainly. And that's not because, um, I'm being awkward. It's because my job is that you get everything exactly right, or you don't do it at all.

Smith: I might have said it. I think the way it's written is misleading, because you didn't ask me to say anything more than that.

Smith: Yeah. Well, you know, if you'd said let's discuss it a bit. I mean, I'm quite open, I'm not trying to hide anything.

Smith: I'm not going to have it misleading, that I'm embarrassed because the neighbours are going to see it, and I'm embarrassed because I'm being arrested.

Pepe: Well, from what that I get there is embarrassment. That's what I get from that. That is what was said. Ok. I know that to be true. Ok. That's why I've signed it. What we'll do now, er, we'll conclude this interview, um. What we'll do, we'll go in the Custody Office, which is downstairs, and you can read through our notes in the presence of us and the Custody Officer. Um, what will happen then, er, you will be re-interviewed by an officer who is in charge of us, about this, and, er, hopefully, this matter can be resolved as quickly as possible.

Smith: Well, as soon as possible, 'cause I've got to start that job on Monday and ...

Pepe: I do ask you if you can keep calm. Ok. Don't wind yourself up, as you did before.

Smith: I am calm. I think I am calm, now. But I'm on the edge, because I'm meant to go to Sainsbury's this afternoon. God knows how the cats are going to get fed.

Pepe: Ok. This is a form, which on the corner it says 987. That relates to how you can have access to this tape. Ok.

Nicholson: No, this is what my job is, conducting this. You must listen to this.

Pepe: It is quite important that you do understand it, yeah, that this is a form which will explain how you can get the tape. It's yours to keep. When I turn the machine off - the tape machine - very shortly, Ok, I will ask you to sign here to endorse this label. One of the tapes will be sealed forever. Ok. So it won't be opened unless a judge or magistrate orders it to be opened. So it's a true record that we can all refer to. Ok. Exactly what happened into this room. Ok. Is there anything you wish to add?

Nicholson: Right. I must stress to you, that you were invited at the opening of this interview to have legal, free legal, representation. There will be further interviews. You've heard the nature of the offence for which you've been arrested. It is a very serious offence. I strongly recommend to you that you have legal representation present.

Smith: But what good's it going to do me. I don't want to get involved in some long case. I mean the thing is ...

Nicholson: It does you good. It protects your interests. Your interests must be protected.

Smith: Well solicitors are about spending money, and I don't want to get involved in it.

Smith: Ok, Ok. I'll see somebody if you insist, but I don't want it to delay the course of this.

Smith: Look, Ok, Yeah, I'll go along with it, because you're offering it. I'll go along with it. I don't want to spend any money. I don't want to spend a lot of money on this, because I've got to save up. So what I want to do is see the solicitor, but as long as it's not going to cost any time. It's all, time is the essence.

Pepe: Well, the most important thing is that you are represented. You've got somebody here for your interests.

Smith: Yes, I don't want them to drag it out and say we're going to go into some long ... I don't want any long, drawn out ...

Nicholson: No, no, no. It will take as long. The following interviews will take as long as it takes the solicitor to attend this police station.

Nicholson: And have private representation with you. We will address that point with the Custody Officer, when this interview concludes.

Smith: Ok. Can I see that this guy who's in a suit, who keeps coming in and saying that he's going to be in 5 minutes, an hour, or something, and he just never turns up, because he's the one who ...

Smith: I don't know, MacLeod is it? Is he the one? You mentioned, I don't know, the guy in the suit. He's got a big ‘heavy' with him.

Smith: Well, if he's the one who's sort of, got me in this mess, then I'd like to see him and sort it out.

Smith: All this has been about. Why I'm getting angry is because he won't talk to me.

Pepe: Well he's not allowed to talk to you Michael, unless it's in circumstances like this.

Nicholson: The only point that we needed in this interview, was to establish, er, whether you were prepared to sign, having heard the account, make any comments about it, and to get your representation.

Smith: Ok. My representation, if that's what you call it, as long as I can see Mr McLeod as soon as possible, and get this mess sorted out.

Pepe: I've nothing further to add, and I take it you don't gentlemen. The time is now 3:30, coming up to 3:31 in the afternoon. This interview is now concluded, and I'll switch the machine off.

INTERVIEW 2 ~ TAPE 2

Beels: This interview is being tape-recorded. I am Detective Sergeant Beels from Special Branch, New Scotland Yard. The other officer present is:

MacLeod: I'm Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod from Special Branch at New Scotland Yard.

Jefferies: My name is Richard Jefferies, Duty Solicitor from Tuckers Solicitors.

Beels: We are in the Interview Room, No. 2 at Paddington Green Police Station. At the end of this interview I'll give you a form explaining your rights of access to a copy of the tape. The date is 8th August and the time is now 5:50 pm. I must caution you Mr Smith, you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be given in evidence. Do you understand?

Beels: You are entitled to free legal advice, and indeed you have your solicitor here present with you. Is that correct?

MacLeod: Mr Smith, you realise the reason you were brought here to this police station today? It's already been fully explained to you?

MacLeod: Well let me once again remind you. You've been brought to the police station, on suspicion of having committed an offence under Section 1 of the Official Secrets Act 1911, in that you communicated classified intelligence to a hostile agency. Do you understand the gist of what I am saying?

Smith: I understand the gist of it. I don't understand the details or what this really means in practice.

MacLeod: Right, I would like to begin by talking about what you did today. Can you just explain to me what you did this morning, and just talk me through stage by stage.

Smith: I'm not sure I should answer that. Um, I've already discussed this with the other officers what happened this morning. All I will say is: I was going out to get a newspaper and, er, 2 police officers arrested me, and he said more or less what you've said today. That's as much as I know of this event, or what you are talking about now.

MacLeod: Right. Let's just simplify matters. Can you just describe to me what you did from the time you got up this morning, to the time that you were actually detained by the police officers?

MacLeod: Right, Ok. So you went out. Did you go directly to the newsagent's?

MacLeod: You must have known. You don't just wander round the area without knowing where you're going.

MacLeod: What I'm asking you is just to describe to me the route that you took to the newsagent's? I mean, that's not too much to ask.

MacLeod: Well, it's got a lot to do with it. Would you please answer my question?

Smith: I'm not sure I should answer this, because I don't understand the question.

MacLeod: I'm trying to clarify what your movements were, from the time that you got up this morning, to the time that you were detained. Now, would you please tell me what route you took to the newsagent's?

Smith: I don't think I should make any comment, because I don't understand the basis of this question. It seems trivial to me.

MacLeod: Well it might sound trivial to you Mr Smith, but I suggest it's certainly not that to me, and I would like you just to tell me, unless you've got something to hide.

MacLeod: If you haven't, then will you please tell me what route you took to the newsagent's?

Smith: Is something supposed to have happened on the way to the newsagent's?

MacLeod: Please don't digress from the point. Will you please tell me what route you took. I don't think this is too hard a question to answer. We're talking about this morning, from the time that you left your house. I want you to tell me what route you took. Now I don't think that is an unreasonable question.

Beels: Mr Smith, your house is on the corner, is it not, of Burton Road and Park Farm Road?

Beels: Now, when you came out of your front door, which direction would you have gone this morning?

Smith: I wanted to go and get a newspaper. I think this is so trivial, I mean, I thought we were here to discuss some matters of security.

MacLeod: We are, and it's up to you to what extent you're prepared to co-operate with us, but I don't think you're being quite straight with us.

Smith: The implications here, are that you are not giving me the information which you are obviously basing this on, and any answers I give are bound to be perhaps misconstrued later on.

MacLeod: The reason you have your solicitor here is to safeguard any misconstruction that might be put on anything that you say … (Smith intervenes)

Smith: Well, I think anything to do with my movements this morning, or matters that you have in your possession that I have no sight of, I think all this is possibly going to make it more difficult for me to explain myself later on. I'd much rather you give me the evidence - we can discuss it.

MacLeod: Mr Smith, I'm going to ask you once again, please tell me - it's not too much of a hard question to answer - what route you went from your home ...

Smith: I wanted to co-operate with you this morning. You wouldn't talk to me. Now I think it's my turn to Say: “it's your turn to give me some information before I co-operate with you”. I'm sorry.

MacLeod: Listen, we're leading this enquiry Mr Smith. You're here to help us. You're here as a private citizen to help police investigating.

MacLeod: Well, this is the very point I'm trying to make. I want you to tell me what route you took, from the time that you left your home this morning, to the time that you were detained by police.

Smith: And if you've been following my movements, you know nothing happened, because I was just walking. I didn't do anything. I didn't talk to anyone.

MacLeod: Well, in that case, there's no reason why you shouldn't be prepared to tell us precisely what happened when you left home this morning. If you feel that nothing's been done, and you suggest we've been watching you, then ...

MacLeod: Well, why don't you be candid, and tell us what you did this morning.

Smith: Well, if you've been watching me, you should know. I mean, I would like to comment on matters which you have got me here for, not to as to where I buy my newspapers, or where I might go for a walk in the morning. I think this is of no consequence to me at all, or to you.

MacLeod: Well, I suggest this is highly relevant to the very point I'm trying to make, and some of the points I'm trying to establish. Now, do you feel that there is something in your behaviour this morning, that's unreasonable for you to answer?

MacLeod: Well, I'm asking you. I'm asking you the question. For you to tell me.

Smith: No. I want you to tell me what you think was unreasonable, then I can answer it in a logical way.

Smith: Well, Ok. I went for a walk, and I bought a newspaper. I see no - there's no other interest in what I did this morning, before these 2 people came in and picked me up off the street.

MacLeod: Right, Ok. Well, if you're not going to tell me what route you took, can I just go back to the, er, to the point before you left the house. We've been talking to your wife, and we've been receiving information from her. I can't imagine that she would be telling us lies.

Smith: God knows. It was somebody who, er, I think it was a wrong number. A foreign guy, um, who I understand was, er, he'd mistaken me for somebody else. I just humoured him and put the phone down.

MacLeod: I want you to think about that question again Mr Smith. I want you to reflect on it just for a minute … (Smith intervenes)

Smith: You don't have access to my phone, so how do you know if there was any calls anyway. My wife might have said there was a phone call; somebody asked for me, I spoke to, to some guy who I'd never spoken to before. I must add that, and he was talking some mumbo jumbo and, I ...

MacLeod: You're a liar. You are a liar. Your wife has told us that you got a telephone call this morning from a man called George, at the Lab.

Smith: I told a cock and bull story, because I didn't know who the guy was, and I didn't want to upset her.

Smith: Because we'd just been making love. Actually, we'd been disturbed twice that morning. The postman knocked; she ran downstairs; she came back up again. I don't like being disturbed while I'm making love, and it was a bloody nuisance. Now, who this guy was, who called, I've no idea. I just humoured him and said, “Yeah George he's somebody I worked with”. Why should I lie to my wife about it, apart from just to keep it ... (MacLeod intervenes)

MacLeod: Well, I can't imagine, I can't imagine if it was a misdirected phone call, why you would wish to say to your wife, it was a George. Why could you not just have said it was a wrong number.

Smith: Well, if you want to make something of this point, then what, what is it about this phone call that upsets ...

MacLeod: I want you to tell me frankly, and honestly, the nature of this call from this man George?

Smith: The nature of the call was, he was, um, I can't remember the exact words, er, something about, um ...

MacLeod: Right, Ok, she answered the telephone. What did the man say to your wife?

Smith: She didn't say, she just said it's somebody asking for me, I thought. Surely this isn't an important point.

MacLeod: If it was somebody asking for you, if it was somebody asking for you, how could that possibly be a misdirected phone call?

Smith: Maybe it was somebody who had got my name from the phone book, or something.

Smith: Look, if you want to go on in this manner, then perhaps we should stop the interview here, but if you want to discuss the matters that you have got me here for, which I thought was far more important.

MacLeod: Well, I'm, I'm, I'm establishing quite clearly your dishonesty in this particular point. Firstly, you said that you received a misdirected phone call. Then you tell me that your wife answered the telephone to a man, a foreign sounding, a foreign accented male who asked for you by name, and you're telling me that that was a misdirected call.

Smith: Well I, I told my wife that perhaps he sounded German, I don't know who he was.

MacLeod: Well, you've just told me that the telephone call, that you received, was misdirected. It was a wrong number.

MacLeod: Your wife has told us, that the telephone call was from a man named George.

Smith: Yeah, because I said to her “Oh, I think it's some guy I used to work with, at, um ...”

Smith: Well, I don't know how he got my number. How on earth could I be expected to know who's on the other end of the line? I've never heard the guy from Adam, you know. How on earth do I know who this chap is, I mean …?

Smith: I think he did, but I don't know, you'll have to speak to my wife, because I ....

MacLeod: I just said a few moments ago. There was a telephone call from a man named, a man named George.

Smith: If he's still there. Yes there was. Because we had some friends, er, who tried to contact us in the past, who got this other guy down the road.

Smith: Well, I'm not. Am I hiding anything? I've been advised not to comment on these matters, but you're making such a, a big thing of trivia, that I thought I was here for something much more serious that I wouldn't have to comment on. But if you want to trivialise the whole matter, then go ahead, but I want to get this sorted out. I've got nothing to hide, and the sooner you can sort it out the better.

MacLeod: When I asked you at the start of this interview, for an account of your movements, of what may have happened to you before you left the house this morning, you omitted to mention the telephone call.

MacLeod: No, I asked you, what you did when you got up this morning. You omitted to mention it. I mean …

Smith: I didn't think it was important. Probably forgotten about it. I mean, it was a trivial call, and, er ...

Smith: I've had people phone me up before at home, and asked for me by name, and it's been somebody else who they're after, and this guy, because he's foreign, I mean, I just took it that the guy's an idiot, and got the wrong number, and I just humoured him. I mean, who else would, er, because I've had people on the phone before who keep ringing back, and they, they think, er …

Smith: Well, you talk to somebody on the phone, and they get the impression that you're, um, either the person they do want to talk to, or they don't believe you. I had a phone call at 3 o'clock in the morning.

Smith: This is the point. I'm sorry, this is the point. I spoke to somebody on the phone at 3 o'clock in the morning, who was ringing from Yorkshire, who wanted to speak to somebody who wasn't there. Kept ringing back. I thought, “sod this”, I'm not going to put up with this. So I just, I humoured the guy, and he went away.

MacLeod: Stick to the point of the question being asked of you. I come back again to this telephone call, that you received this morning, which for some reason you chose to ignore, and yet your wife quite willingly volunteered the information in interview without any problem.

Smith: Well, she answered it. She probably remembered it better than I do. I've had a lot of things go wrong today for me.

MacLeod: Well, maybe so, but just answer the point. What was the telephone … What was the nature of the conversation between you and this man George?

Smith: I don't honestly remember all the details. I mean, it was something about, um, something about being urgent. He wanted to see somebody urgently or something. I don't know what that meant.

MacLeod: But if it was a wrong number, why would he enter into any conversation with you?

Smith: I don't know. He might have thought that I was the person he wanted to talk to. I, I …

Smith: Well, he, he said that because I am. That's my name; I said yes it's me. I didn't know who he was. Perhaps you know who he is, but I don't know. I say, I've never heard that, that, er, voice before. And that, that is the honest truth. I mean, why should I lie about that? I've never heard that man [George] before.

Smith: Yeah, George who? I don't, I don't know. I don't know the second name or anything.

MacLeod: I want you just to think for a minute on this telephone conversation, because …

MacLeod: No, we're not. We are not. I will dwell on this point as long as it takes. I want to know what the nature of that telephone call was this morning.

Smith: So, what did my wife say, because she wasn't talking to this man. She couldn't say anything. What on earth are you basing this on? Did you get this guy George to phone me up? I think that's what it must be. Because if you know what he said, and I don't even remember it, obviously you're playing cat and mouse with me. I'm sorry, I don't want to be pedantic about this, but I thought I was here to discuss some serious breach of security, and you're discussing a bloody phone call, which has got … you know, it's so trivial it seems ludicrous. See what I'm saying? No, you don't.

MacLeod: I can see what you're saying, but you know, as well as I do, that that's not the truth.

Smith: Well put the cards on the table. Who is this George then? Is he somebody I should know?

MacLeod: He's somebody I would like you to talk to me about, because I'm sure …

Smith: I don't know George. If I knew George, I'd tell you who the guy was. I mean, I don't know, I don't know where he lives, or anything about him.

MacLeod: So what did he say then, when, when he entered into this conversation?

Smith: It wasn't a conversation. It was just a yes, no, yes, no, sort of thing. I didn't discuss anything with him.

MacLeod: So what did he say then, if I can come back to that point? What did he say?

Smith: He said something about, something being urgent, but I couldn't quite understand, because his accent was so bad. That's all. … Come on, we don't want any silence in here. We're wasting tape. I'm sorry, I don't … I wanted to make a ‘no comment' type of interview, and you, you're spoiling it.

Smith: Victor? I've got, um, my friend. I have a Spanish friend, who has a son called Victor.

Smith: I don't think so. Not, not at the present. I don't know maybe I knew some in the past.

Smith: Victor. If I did, it was a very long time ago, because I don't remember any other Victors. Victor's not a common name. I don't think it is.

MacLeod: I'm putting it to you, that this telephone conversation this morning, that you had with this man George, concerned somebody called Victor, and I'm putting it to you, that you knew perfectly well who this Victor was, and I further suggest that that was the reason that you left your house this morning.

Smith: Why are we picking up being so damn serious about this. Look, just discuss it.

MacLeod: I'm just … That's a matter for you to wait and see. I want you to tell me, in your own words, who this Victor is.

Smith: I cannot tell you who this Victor is, because I don't … I … the only Victor I know is the son of a friend of mine, and he's about 15 years old, and I can honestly say there's no other Victor that I can remember for - perhaps since - at University; I might have known a Victor. I can't remember any other Victors.

Smith: How often do you find somebody called Victor? You might hear about somebody.

MacLeod: No, it's not a common name. That's why I feel that there's, you know …

MacLeod: an easily recollectable name, and you're telling me, you can't remember the name. Just you wait. Tell me.

Smith: Well I can't answer you, if you give me no facts to go on. Because I don't know. Are we talking about 20 years ago? Or is it longer?

MacLeod: But I want you to try to recollect, first of all, the nature of this telephone call this morning. I want you to tell me, once again, what was it all about?

Smith: I don't know what it was about, because the guy didn't make it clear. I mean, it was just, er, the meanderings of an idiot, I thought. I mean, the guy just waffled on about something, and I just said yes, no, yes, no, or something like that, and put the phone down. Well, I can answer the phone how I damn well please, it's my phone.

MacLeod: Of course you can, course you can, but what has not been clear from this interview is the reason why you chose, in the first instance, to ignore that you received a telephone call this morning, and secondly ...

Smith: I want this on record. I did not ignore that point. You were the one who raised it.

Smith: Why should I discuss every phone ... I told you, on my way, I made love to my wife this morning, and isn't that more important to a man? Is it not?

MacLeod: It's not a … it's not a subject I particularly feel that is relevant to this enquiry.

Smith: Well I think it's very important, because I'm a living person. I'm not a machine that answers questions like a robot. I did the things I felt like doing this morning, and I did them, and I was prevented in doing anything further by these 2 guys, who picked me up for whatever reason, which you won't give me.

Smith: You can prove what you damn well please. I, I have no record of that phone call.

MacLeod: Answer, answer the question. What were you … what was the nature of the conversation, and what were you going to do when you left the house this morning?

MacLeod: And for some reason, or other, you can't remember what route you took.

Smith: No. I said I wasn't going to discuss it, because I didn't know why you were asking that question.

Smith: If I knew why you were asking that question, I would tell you. I've got no, no reason to hide it.

Smith: If you, if you … Look, if you talk to people as much as I do, you realise how much logic you have to use in conversation to get what you want from them, and I don't believe that the way you're asking these questions is getting to the truth. If you want me to respond in the way that's going to give you something, and me something, out of this interview, then I presume you should ask the questions that, that make it logical for me to answer them. You're asking me questions without giving me the facts. Why should I, why should because I'm only here on a so-called serious charge, or whatever it might be.

MacLeod: Listen, you don't expect for one minute, that I'm going to put all my cards on the table at once.

Smith: Well don't, so I won't do either. Listen, if you want to play the game this way …

MacLeod: You're the one, you're the one that's here to answer questions, concerning a very serious matter.

Smith: No, it's not up to me, it's up to you. You're the one controlling this interview.

MacLeod: Right, let's go back to the beginning again. Mr Smith, tell me what you did, from the time you got up this morning?

Smith: Ok. Right. I got up. The wife said, er, she, she was hungry, or she was thirsty. She wanted a cup of coffee, right. So I got up, and I made a cup of coffee, and I made a bowl of cornflakes - the crunchy nut ones that I like - and we sat down, and we had some cornflakes, etc, and we made love. Now, I think that's quite normal. I, I'm not ashamed of that. Then we, er, we were sitting there talking about things. I can't remember in detail what it was about. Honestly, I can't remember, because it was just what a wife and husband talk about when they wake up in the morning, and then the phone went. I don't know what time it was, about 10 to 9 or 5 to 9, something like that. I can't remember. I didn't look at the clock, but it was shortly before my wife was due to get up, because she had to go to a back appointment. An osteopath. Right - the phone went - my wife answered the phone, and there was a conversation with somebody. She said, “I think he wants to talk to you”, and then I'm not clear exactly what the guy said. It was some, some, I couldn't understand him entirely, because it was, er, I'm not sure if it was indistinct the way he was talking, but I'm sure I asked him to repeat something, but it was a bit of nonsense which I, I didn't understand the connection with me. But I humoured him, as I said before. Then, um, we started getting ready. My wife said she, um, we discussed something about my wife's earlier schooling, the friend she had at school.

MacLeod: Can we go back to the telephone conversation. Can you tell me again what the nature of the conversation was? Your wife answered the telephone, she said ...

Smith: I don't know what the guy said to her, because you'll have to ask her that.

Smith: Yes, and all she told me was that somebody called George. I don't know George, I don't know. Actually, I thought there was a George I used to work with years ago. I can't remember another George though. Again, it's not somebody I know of - I don't know of somebody called George at the moment – and, er, I don't remember much about the call. I mean, she, she said “I think he wants you”. I just discussed something with him, which was trivia as far as I can remember. Why, I remember something, something being very urgent. I thought well, Ok, it might be urgent for him.

MacLeod: So you're saying now, that he wanted to discuss something with you?

Smith: Well, I don't know, I don't remember the … how can I remember details of the conversation that I barely remember. Am I saying too much here. I mean, I think this guy's leading me up the garden path.

INTERVIEW 2 ~ TAPE 3

Beels: The time is 6:19. This is an interview between Detective Superintendent MacLeod and Mr Smith. Interview continues.

MacLeod: Concerning the telephone conversation this morning. Your wife received the telephone call.

MacLeod: Well, if she picked it up, she received it. But she answered the telephone, and she said it was for you. Is that correct?

MacLeod: Right, Ok. So you picked up the telephone, and you spoke to George.

Smith: Well, if that's what his name is, I don't know if that's what his name was. I can't …

Smith: Well, I can't give you details, because it was so - um, it was over in a flash - and I, I don't remember …

Smith: what was said exactly. All I can give you is the gist of the conversation.

Smith: All I remember, from the conversation, was that it was somebody - he sounded like he was in some sort of trouble.

He said, I, um, I can't remember what word I used before that he said. Urgent, or something like that. He sounded like he was in trouble. Could I meet him, or something like that, I don't know. I don't know what was said. I think that was all there was. I mean, I don't remember there being any, …

MacLeod: Well, maybe there was no discussion as to who George was, but did he make any reference to anything else, or anybody else?

Smith: Oh God. How do I, I don't, I don't remember him saying very much. It was, it was over in such a short time. I, I can't give you information that I can't remember. I'm sorry.

MacLeod: Right. I could understand if that was a fairly lengthy conversation, but ...

MacLeod: I could understand if you couldn't remember the detail. But, I mean, this was over in a flash, and you can't remember what ...

Smith: Well I, I was half asleep. I wasn't really interested in the, what the guy had to say. I mean, what other excuse can I give. I mean, if I could remember word for word, if I had a photographic memory - great - but I don't have that sort of memory. I can only give you the flavour of the conversation, which was, was something about this guy being in trouble. I don't know what trouble he was in, he didn't describe it.

Smith: I don't … Because he got the wrong name, I guess. I don't know. What, what can I say to the guy. I was half asleep. I'd just been making love to my wife. What do you expect me to say to him? I mean, I, I'm not going to have a very philosophical conversation with a guy when I really want to get back to my wife and her problems. She had a back appointment this morning. I hope she went there.

MacLeod: I will repeat once again. What was, what was said to you on the telephone by George?

Smith: If I could give you more detail I would, but I, I'm sorry I can't. I mean, I'm not avoiding the question, I'm not trying to, er, keep anything back. I'm just telling you what I remember of the conversation. It was so, um, it was so trivial and so, er, done so quickly, how can I possibly remember more than that? I told you, what I'd said. I said yes, no, that sort of thing. I don't think I actually discussed anything with him.

Smith: How do you know I discussed. I don't think I did discuss anything with him. How could you possibly know that, unless George was somebody that you've asked to ring me up. I don't know. I, I presume this is all about the job for Ferranti, isn't it? Is it? You're trying me out, that's what you're doing, isn't it?

Smith: I had a telephone conversation with, er, a guy called George, who I don't know, and he discussed something with me, which, er, basically was about him being in trouble, or something being urgent, and I ... That's all I remember.

Smith: Because … I don't know. I think perhaps, either somebody gave him the wrong number, or maybe, er, maybe he looked up in the book and got it wrong - I don't know. But I mean, if I knew George, I'd tell you who he was. I'm quite serious about that. I, I do not know who George was. The only George I can remember is a George I knew 12 or 13 years ago, and it certainly wasn't him.

Smith: No, He didn't say he was in trouble. I said, I think he was in trouble. The way he …

Smith: I don't remember, but it was something about it's urgent. You know, something about … I don't, I think, I don't think he actually said trouble. I think that's my word. I, I got the feeling he was in trouble, the way he was talking. I'm sorry, if I could say more than that I would, but what can I tell you?

MacLeod: I think you can say more than that, but your, your memory is quite convenient. When it suits yourself, you can remember.

Smith: I don't like being accused of being a liar. If you'll, if you think I'm lying then tell me what, what I'm not saying, and I'll, I'll put you right.

Smith: I've told you. Look, this point. Can I … Look, this is ridiculous. I had a conversation with a man I don't know. I, I talked gibberish to him, like he talked gibberish to me, and we finished, and that was the end of it. Now, what on earth can I have in common with George. I don't even know who George is. I, I can't stop people ringing me up at home.

MacLeod: So you didn't know who the caller was. That's what you're saying to me.

MacLeod: Well, how would, how would you make a statement saying yes, no, yes, no?

Smith: Because I was half asleep. I'd been making love to my wife. I wasn't interested in talking to anybody.

MacLeod: You were half asleep, and you just tell me you've made love to your wife. I mean, if you've made love to your wife, and you're half asleep ...

MacLeod: Well I think you're, you're hedging, you're hedging the issue here.

Smith: But what has that got, what has my personal relationships with my wife …

Smith: But it's very relevant to this discussion, because you're talking about something that overlapped with love-making with my wife.

Smith: I, I object to you making it sound like it's trivial, and I can just pick up the phone and talk to somebody as though I'm at the office on a Monday morning. It's not like that, making love, if you've ever made love yourself ...

MacLeod: The point I'm making, the point I'm making is that you're telling me that you were so drowsy, so sleepy ...

Smith: She'll tell you. She can't get me out of bed in the morning. I'm hardly …

Smith: It wasn't a conversation, for fuck's sake. I keep telling you. The conversation, as far as it was, on my side, was yes, no or 3 bags full. I didn't have a conversation with this man. Now, if he phoned up for whatever reason, what can I, I can't stop him phoning me. Who is he? If you know who he is, tell me, but I have no clue who this man George is. I'm quite open about this. I, I do not know who George is.

Smith: Well maybe it was. I, my wife couldn't have told you that, because she didn't talk to this man for, for more than a couple of minutes, couple of seconds. Well, who is Victor?

Smith: I do not know any Victors, apart from the son of a friend of mine. Do you want me to reiterate this.

Smith: The only Victor that I … I want this on tape. The only Victor that I know is a Spaniard, who is the son of a man called Antonio Lara Molina. He lives in Epsom, 20 Sefton Road. You can check with him. His son is named Victor, and we're quite good friends.

Smith: Well I don't, I wouldn't like to say ever known. I mean, I would be an idiot to say I never knew a Victor in the past, wouldn't I?

MacLeod: But what I mean is, did you ever have, um, a friendship with a man called Victor?

MacLeod: Were you an acquaintance? Were you an acquaintance of a man called Victor?

Smith: I do not know any Victors. Look, I'm saying I don't know, I never knew a Victor in the past. I would be stupid to say a thing like that, but the only Victor that I know now, I've explained who that is.

MacLeod: You did explain that bit. Can we just keep to the, to the central question.

Smith: Ok. Well - Victors in the past - maybe I knew a Victor. I mean, I could, I can't remember 20 years back. Maybe there was somebody I knew at university was called Victor. Maybe I worked with somebody, or knew somebody ...

MacLeod: Will you please keep to the point that's been, the question that has been asked.

Smith: Well, this is the point. You're trying, you asked me about Victor, and I say I do not know a Victor, and if I did, well, why should I hold back and not tell you?

MacLeod: Because I suggest that's the reason that you went out this morning, because this whole telephone conversation was about Victor.

Smith: If this man said Victor. I mean, I was humouring the guy anyway. You can ask my wife, I mean, the way I was talking was yes, no, yes, no, or something. I, I didn't know who the guy was. I mean, I told you George means nothing to me. I mean, who is George? Is he one of your men? Is he?

Smith: Victor who? Mention his second name - perhaps I might know him - but Victor on its own? I mean, I do not know anybody called Victor, except Victor Molina, a Spaniard. How can I answer this man in any better way. I do not know a Victor. Right.

MacLeod: I will demonstrate at some stage of this investigation, Mr Smith, quite clearly …

MacLeod: I'm certainly not going to do that now. I will demonstrate that you do know a Victor.

Smith: Look, if, if you gave me a month of Sundays, I could not give you a Victor that I know, or give a second name even. I mean, I, I, we're talking about Victor ... Where does he live? What's my relationship with this guy? I don't know. I mean, you're, you're talking very hypothetically.

Smith: You are. It's talking in riddles. I mean, if you were straight about this, you'd tell me who this guy's supposed to be, and what's my relationship to him.

Smith: You, you know that, because I was picked up on the way back from there.

MacLeod: No, right. Let's go back to the beginning. You left home. What route did you take?

Smith: Do I have to answer all these questions? I, I don't know what this question of route is. There's something very sinister about this question, about which route I took.

Smith: I don't know what it is, but I'm not going to answer questions that might incriminate me, based on something which I don't have any, anything to go on. You are playing around here.

Smith: If I'm supposed to have met some guy called Victor, while I was out this morning, that, that obviously means something to you, doesn't it? Does it?

Smith: I think you're trying to make me say something that I don't understand.

MacLeod: I'll ask the, I'll ask the, I'll ask the questions Mr Smith. I'll ask the questions.

MacLeod: If you feel that there was something that might incriminate you, during that short time that you were out of your home this morning.

Smith: I was out walking and I, I don't remember anything happening on that walk.

MacLeod: Ok. Let's talk about the walk then, from the home. Where did you go? What, did you turn left?

Smith: I'm not going to discuss that with you, until you get me some evidence.

Smith: If I'm supposed to have met some guy, who I say I don't know. Is that what you're trying to make me say?

Smith: I don't want to say anything that is wrong. If you want me to say something.

Smith: I'm glad this is on tape, because it'll show the way you're trying to twist what I'm saying, into something you want me to say. I'm sorry.

Smith: Look, give me a straight question, not this dilly-dallying, will you, for fuck's sake. I want to get out of here. Now just tell me a, b, c, and we'll get it over with, because you're wasting my time.

MacLeod: Well, if you want to satisfy that. If you say you want to get this over with. Right then ...

Smith: Then, ask me a sensible question, instead of talking about something that didn't happen.

MacLeod: So, I mean, what's the difficulty in telling me the route that you took this morning?

Smith: If I can remember it exactly, but I'm not going to tell you until you tell me why you are asking that question.

Smith: Because I think you're trying to say I did something on that route. that I didn't.

Smith: I did not do anything on that route. If you're trying to say I passed some information to somebody on that route, is that what you're saying? Are you trying to say that I'm actually going out this morning to do something, er, against the Official Secrets Act? If you're saying that …

MacLeod: Down to the personal point of making love to your wife, and to what you discussed up to the point that you left your house, and yet you're not prepared to answer my question on the route that you took, from your home to the point that you were arrested by the police. Now, I don't see …

Smith: But where did I go? I mean, I don't know what I'm supposed to have done when I was out.

Smith: If you told me what I'd done, then we could talk about it, but I just walked; I didn't do anything while I was walking. I bought a newspaper. I came back, and was arrested, and I, that's all that I think is significant. If the route I took had something to do with some - this guy called George, or something - if that's what you're suggesting? I don't know what it might be, because you're obviously very interested in George, whoever this George is.

MacLeod: If you, if you, if you feel that you've got nothing to hide, why can you not tell me these, answer the simple question of the route you took.

Smith: I've told you. Look, I want this on record. I've told you, at least 3 times, the reason I don't want to tell you my route. I'm not hiding it. The reason I don't want to tell you, at this time, is because you've not told me what happened on that route, that you feel I'm, I'm under suspicion for. Why I've been called in today. Because obviously, you think something happened on that, my, my trip out today. My simple walk out to buy a newspaper has turned into something, which you feel has, has got some significance to you, but has no significance to me.

MacLeod: I suggest, Mr Smith, it wasn't just a simple walk to buy a newspaper. It was a …

Smith: Look, if I could tell you something happened, I, I would love to do that. I would love to say I, I'd kicked a dog, or something, but nothing happened.

MacLeod: If nothing happened then, why can you not answer the simple question.

Smith: Because you, you are trying to make me say something, which I, I don't understand your reasons for, and I'm sorry, I need to have reasons, otherwise I can't make a comment. I don't comment on that question.

Smith: Look, you have me here to answer questions. Now, I'm trying to answer the questions to the best of my ability, without landing myself in something that I don't even understand. Now, put yourself in my position, would you want me to say …

MacLeod: Listen, I'm asking the questions here Mr Smith. I want you once again, to tell me the route that you took, from your home address to the point that you were arrested by police. If you feel there's something that, that might incriminate you, then it is your right to remain silent. Of course it is.

Smith: I'll, I'll remain silent then, because until you give me the information I require, I cannot answer that question, I'm sorry.

MacLeod: So you feel that that question, er, places you in a position that might incriminate yourself?

Smith: It does not, but what I'm saying is you're going to then use that information to say, maybe I was where I shouldn't be, and I, I, I don't know. I don't know what you're going to say.

MacLeod: I want you to tell me. I'm not going to twist the, er, facts to suit myself.

Smith: You do not know what the facts are, because, obviously, if you knew what the facts were you would give me the explanation that I'm asking for. What, what am I supposed to have done this morning. I mean, how can, how can I, I'm not going to say I did something that I didn't, if that's what you think. Because, as far as I'm concerned, all I did was to walk and to buy a paper. I did nothing else. I didn't talk to anybody. I didn't have a conversation with anybody, and that is the truth. I mean, I'm not lying about that. I'm, I really am seriously saying, I did not communicate with anybody. I did not pass any information this morning to anybody. If that's what you think I did, I'm sure ...

Smith: Well, I think you are, and that's why I'm not going to discuss my route, because I think you had a stooge there, who was waiting for me. That, that must be the answer. You think that …

Smith: Why, why else, why else won't you tell me why, why this route is important?

MacLeod: I mean, it seems extraordinary. You go out in the morning to buy a newspaper, and you can't remember the journey you took from your home address to the newsagent's.

Smith: I'm not saying that I couldn't remember the journey. I'm saying I'm not telling you.

MacLeod: Oh yes, you're conveniently forgetting it, or refusing to answer that?

Smith: I know, I know exactly the way I went. I will tell you in great detail probably, where I went.

MacLeod: I want you to help us with our enquiries, to get to the bottom of this.

Smith: Ok. Well ask me some sensible questions that I can answer to help you.

MacLeod: That's not a matter for you. I want you to answer my question. If it's not, if you feel it's a matter that's going to incriminate you …?

Smith: Shall I answer this question? 'Cause this guy is, is, he won't let me off this hook, this point. I don't know what he's getting at.

MacLeod: I'm sorry, I want, I'm going, I'm going, I'm going to have to dwell on this, because I feel the reason that you're not coming up front with the, with the answer, is because you feel, at the back of your mind, you've got something to hide.

MacLeod: Well, I don't know. That's what I'm trying to establish. Otherwise you …

MacLeod: You would answer the question, if you didn't feel it was going to put you in a difficult position.

Jefferies: My client's asking me for advice on this point. Might I have a consultation with him about this point.

Jefferies: You heard him asking, indicate to me that he wants to speak to me about this matter.

Smith: I think, really, for some reason, this, this route I took may be important. I don't know.

Beels: Right, at this stage, Mr Smith has requested consultation with his solicitor, so I'm concluding this interview. Is there anything else you wish to add?

Beels: Clarify? At the end of this tape, er, interview, I will be asking you to sign the seal on the master tape. Will you do so?

Beels: I have here a form, explaining your rights of access to that tape. You may have had one already. Ok. I'm now turning off the machine. The time is 6:41.

INTERVIEW 3 ~ TAPE 4

Beels: This interview is being tape-recorded. I'm Detective Sergeant Stephen Beels, Special Branch, New Scotland Yard. Other officer present …

MacLeod: I am Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod, also from Special Branch, at New Scotland Yard.

Jefferies: My name is Richard Jefferies, Duty Solicitor from Tuckers Solicitors.

Beels: We are in Interview Room number 2, at Paddington Green Police Station. At the end of this interview I will give you, sir, a form explaining your rights of access to a copy of the tape. The date is the 8th August 1992, and the time is now 7:13 pm. I must caution you again, sir, that you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be given in evidence. Do you understand?

Beels: You, you are entitled to free legal, legal advice, and you have your solicitor present with you. Is that correct?

Smith: First of all I'd like to put on record. I apologise very much for my behaviour earlier on, right. I was overwrought. I've had a very bad day – a lot to put up with – and I do apologise if I've inconvenienced anybody, I've made, upset anybody. It's not my normal way, right, but I've been put in very unusual circumstances here today. Now, because of the way the interview went in the first part of the session, where matters have been discussed which I didn't have full knowledge of, and I, I get the feeling that, er, the way the interview was going, I was being, um, led to answer things, that were leading me down paths that I couldn't see the implications of. I've decided to decline to comment any further on any questions that you may have for me. It's, it's not that I'm trying to cover anything up, I'm certainly not, but until you reveal further information on your side, I feel that it's pointless me commenting, and having an endless discussion, which, er, goes round in circles, about trivia as far as I can see, when I wanted to get onto the meat of the case, which I thought was far more serious.

MacLeod: Right, Ok. I understand it then. I perfectly understand that. Well, can you tell me then, um, are you then prepared to discuss, um, something about your background? Can you tell me when you first became involved with the Communist Party of Great Britain?

Smith: No, I don't think I'd better discuss it. If you want to raise, those sort of matters, that's been discussed, um, at length, in a Positive Vetting session I had in 1980. I don't want to comment any further. In fact, they asked me at the time not to, to not talk about it to anybody, so I'm doing that.

Smith: My trips abroad, er? I've got nothing to hide, and, but I don't think there's any point in commenting any further until I've got more information.

Smith: I want to help you, but you're not helping me, I'm afraid. So I, I don't wish to comment any further.

MacLeod: Well, listen to what I have to say. I merely asked you a number of questions concerning your activity, from the time you got up this morning to the time that you left home.

Smith: I, I thought I had discussed that at length, and I don't wish to comment any further on that. I've given you the information that I thought you wanted, but I'm not going to give you information which, er, when you're not prepared to give me the reason for your questioning. I think it would be highly foolish of me, at this stage, to make comments on things that I don't understand, which you certainly do understand.

MacLeod: Well, I'm putting it to you, that you received a telephone call this morning, from a man called …

Smith: We've discussed that. We've discussed that. I've, I've told you exactly what I can tell you.

MacLeod: Well, I'm putting it to you that that telephone conversation concerned a man called Victor, and you were on your way to make, er, to meet up with somebody when you left the house this morning.

Smith: That's untrue, but I don't want to comment on it anyway. It's pointless commenting.

Smith: I've discussed that with you before. I don't know any Victor. I don't know any George. I mean, I'm not trying to cover it up. If that's what you think I went out to do this morning, well you have to draw those conclusions, and present the evidence you think you've got, but I can't comment on something that I have no knowledge of. I'm sorry.

Smith: I told you I knew, er, somebody called Victor. He's the son of a friend of mine, who is Spanish and lives in Epsom. That's the only Victor I know, or to my knowledge have known, as far as my memory goes back. I can't give you any more information than that.

That's all in the early part of the tape. I see no point in elaborating on something that, when there's no further information. I'm sorry.

MacLeod: Well, I'm putting it to you that you do know, or you were acquainted with a man called Victor.

Smith: Well then. If you say so, I don't know if that's true or not, but, um, I don't know if I knew a man called Victor. I don't think I did. How could I comment on something you're giving me no information about - who this man is, or what he does, or where he lives. I mean, how can I possibly comment on something when I don't know this man?

MacLeod: You know a man called Victor Oshchenko. I'm now showing a photograph, a black and white photograph, to Mr Smith of Victor Oshchenko.

Smith: I, I've never seen this man before. How can I possibly say I know him. I certainly wasn't going to meet him today, because I've never met the guy. How can you, …

Smith: I cannot tell you something that I don't have any information on. Look, you're sitting there, very cute on giving this information.

MacLeod: That man, that man is with us, and you know as well as I do who that man is. He is with us now.

MacLeod: Just listen to what I have to say. That is the reason that you find yourself in this situation today.

Smith: But that might be so, I mean, maybe, maybe he is the cause of my problems, but …

Smith: Well, well, I don't know. I've said I can't comment on something. This is information which you, you're springing on me, and you're expecting me to, to say yes, I know him? No I don't. I do not know this man. How do I know this man? Who is he?

MacLeod: You know, you know very well you met him. You know very well you met him. You knew him for a number of years.

Smith: Well, what's the point in me commenting on this sort of rubbish. I mean, you're, you're going to twist it around. You …

Smith: Look, I can't, I can't comment on this. I'm sorry. I've made my point. I, I apologise for being the way I am, because that's the way I am. I get upset when people upset me.

Smith: But I can't ans …, answer questions about things that … How do you expect me to answer questions like that?

MacLeod: Perfectly well. If you knew that man, and I'm suggesting that you do, and you knew him over a period of time.

Smith: Well, if you think you, if you think I knew him, then you tell me where I met him? I don't know. Did I meet him in a bar? Where? I don't know. You, you, you're twisting these things.

Smith: Has he? Well, perhaps he knows more about me than you do. I don't know who the guy is, but if you want to make a point of it, yes, Ok, evidence, I don't know. What do you expect me to say? I've said I do not know this man. I do not want to comment any further on this case, until you've given me some hard facts on which to base what I'm supposed to have done. I'm sorry, the ball's in your court.

MacLeod: This man, this man has been telling us about you. Now we're getting down to the nitty gritty now, and I want you to tell me what your relationship was with Oshchenko.

Smith: All I can say is that he wears a big tie [looking at his photograph]. I mean, what, what do you want me to say? I mean, the guy doesn't look like anybody I've ever seen.

MacLeod: He has accused you of passing, passing classified information to the KGB.

Smith: Look, if, if you listen to somebody off the street, who accuses somebody ...

Smith: Look, I can't. How can you expect … Look, you, you spring this on me. You expect me to come up with some, er, some answers that satisfy you, and I'd love to do that. I want to get out of here as soon as I can. The way you're presenting this, you're not helping me. You're, you're putting me in a position where you're springing evidence on me, to try and make me say things about something I don't even know. I mean, look I, I do not know this guy. I don't wish to comment any further on, on any relationship you might think I've got with him, until you tell me where, where did I meet him? Where, where? Who is he?

MacLeod: Why, why should he, why should he name you Mr Smith? Why should he …

Smith: I, I don't need to, because I don't know. If you want me to, to string you a pack of lies, to make your case ...

Smith: Well, that's what I think you're trying to do, I'm sorry. I don't want to get involved in this. I said, I don't want to comment any further, and you, you don't seem to, to believe that. I mean, I'm not commenting now, I'm just giving you, you the chit-chat, and ...

MacLeod: You're lying. You're lying through your teeth. You're pretty good at lying aren't you?

MacLeod: Well, you lied when you filled in your vetting application for Thorn EMI, didn't you, about your past Communist Party connections. Am I right, or am I wrong?

Smith: Look, if you're going to drag the past up, I'm going to have, to have time to sort things out, and what happened.

MacLeod: You can remember your past connections with the Communist Party. Yes or no?

Smith: I don't have to talk about that, because that's covered already by my Positive Vetting.

Smith: I'm not going to discuss it with you. You are not members of the Security Forces. I'm not obliged to mention anything to you.

Smith: They told me not to discuss it with anybody, and that's what I'm doing.

MacLeod: You can take it from me, I am perfectly entitled to put these questions to you.

Smith: I'm sorry, I'm not going to discuss something with you, about something which, er. I'm being put in an embarrassing position here, discussing somebody I don't know, about things that might have happened 15 years ago, and you want me to discuss what, what I talked about in private to a, a Security Officer. I'm sorry I can't do that.

Smith: I'm not, I'm not refusing to discuss it, but you get a Security Officer who has the clearance, the, er ...

MacLeod: We're not, we're not going to sort of fudge the issue here. I want you to answer my questions concerning your employment at Thorn EMI.

Smith: Look, my employment is between me and my employers, and if you want to ...

MacLeod: The position that you are in at the moment is a matter for discussion here and now, Mr Smith.

MacLeod: Well, I think it is, and you'll be here as long as it takes me to get to the bottom of this.

Smith: Ok. We'll stay here as long as you like, but I don't wish to comment on things that you are not being fair about. I'm sorry.

MacLeod: Asking you about your past connections with the Communist Party. Are you denying that you were ever a communist?

Smith: I'm not commenting on that. That's covered by the Official Secrets Act, and my discussions with people in private. I'm sorry.

Smith: Until you show me in writing, something that says you have the right to ...

MacLeod: I'm not here to establish my, er, security clearance with you. I am telling you ...

Smith: Would you accept something verbal? I, I do not accept a verbal, er, er ...

Smith: Well I'm sorry, we'll end the interview now. I cannot accept what you're saying. I'm sorry. You do not have clearance to discuss my security clearance. I'm sorry.

MacLeod: Have you ever discussed your work anywhere else, Mr Smith, when you were working in EMI. Have you ever discussed the work you were involved in with anybody outside the company?

MacLeod: We're not talking about the working conditions, we're talking about the sensitive project that you may have been involved in.

Smith: You know as well as I do, that you cannot discuss these things outside work, except with people who are cleared to that level of security clearance. I know that and you know that.

MacLeod: So, what you're saying is that perhaps you might not even discuss it with your wife, for example.

Smith: Well, I think if you ask her you'll find out. Why should I tell you that. You can find out from her.

Smith: I've discussed work, but I didn't say I discuss, er, secrets. I don't think that's for discussion with my wife or anybody.

MacLeod: I don't think it's fair for discussion with your wife, but you, you certainly discussed it with your wife.

MacLeod: You've discussed the work that you were involved in, in Thorn EMI, with your wife. She's told us. You're telling me that you've got a security clearance, you're not prepared to talk to me, but you're prepared to talk to your wife. That doesn't get any better.

Smith: Look, those words … What I talked to my wife about is between my wife and I. Are you accusing her …

MacLeod: I'm not accusing anybody. What I'm saying to you is that you were quite prepared to discuss with your wife, the kind of work that you were involved in at Thorn EMI, but why should that be any different with anyone else? If you're prepared to speak to your wife about it, why not somebody else, like the KGB for example.

Smith: I, I don't know him. If he's the Victor you're thinking, you've been mentioning in the earlier discussion we had, I've no way of knowing if that's that man or somebody else. Perhaps I don't know him as Victor. I don't know. I don't know this guy. Who is he?

Smith: But I don't know anybody called Oshchenko. It's not an, an English name. I don't know that person. If this man has been spreading lies about me, to try and get me in trouble, to get himself off the hook, then I want to meet him and have this out with him. Look, we're going to get nowhere like this. I don't wish to comment on these things, until the facts are on the table. What did I do, when did I do it. If you can't come up with that then, then I need to, er, sort a few things out at home. I don't need to be messed about like this. I've told you I don't wish to comment on things until you, you come clean with what it is you're charging me with.

MacLeod: Right. Let's, er, let's just change tactics for a moment, shall we. Can we just have, er, a sort of look at, you, a recap on your sort of background. You are …

Smith: I don't wish to discuss my background with you, I'm sorry. Why should I?

MacLeod: Well, in that case, why should you feel so reticent about talking about your background?

MacLeod: Well, I don't think you're really in a position to dictate, whether you're in a mood or not, to discuss matters that are highly relevant to this investigation.

Smith: Isn't that for me to decide how I feel. Look, I don't wish to comment. We're getting in the same argument as we did before. I'm sorry, I apologise for this developing the way it has done, but I don't like your interviewing technique - I'm sorry - and I don't like the sort of questioning you're having on me, when you've given me no time to, to think what I should answer. It's, it's all coming out of the blue, who this guy is. I mean, you suddenly put him on the table, and say I'm supposed to know him. What do you expect me to say? I'm not stupid.

Smith: So I'm not going to comment on this guy. Whoever he might be, it's for you to present the facts and I'll, I'll discuss it when you come up with them.

MacLeod: So, what you're telling me is, you've never met this man. You've never met Victor Oshchenko.

Smith: Look, let's just say no comment. I mean, what's the point of beating about the bush. No comment.

MacLeod: Can I just talk about the time that you were, er, involved in trade union affairs.

Smith: You might talk about him. I'm not talking about him, because I, I don't know him.

Smith: Go, go ahead then. Mention him and see what I've got to say, because I, I don't know what I can say about him, and you, you are calling the tune obviously.

MacLeod: I'm putting it to you, that the reason that you left your home today was to make, make a meeting with a man called George.

Smith: George? Look we discussed this before. I do not know a George. I've no comment on that.

MacLeod: Victor Oshchenko. The man I'm talking about. The man whose photograph is in front of you here.

Smith: I don't think that was what the conversation was about at all. I'm sorry.

MacLeod: Just, let me finish. Let me finish. Are you saying that the telephone conversation this morning by this man, so called, this man so called George, er, that was, er, there was no reference to a Victor?

Smith: No, you said you thought there was somebody called Victor. I don't think I mentioned him. Maybe there was, but I said his accent was bad, and I didn't ...

MacLeod: And you couldn't, you couldn't, I see. Well, I can prove that the gist of that telephone conversation this morning concerned Victor, and you know well who Victor was. That was the reason you left so promptly to make the meeting.

MacLeod: Saturday, yes, Saturday morning out to get the, the newspaper, and ...

Smith: Well, I've got a particular reason. I've, I've lost my job, if you don't know, and I've been trying to, er, to look through newspapers; get, get advertisements, er, and also I was interested in the Olympics yesterday, because I, I missed, I was too tired to ….

Smith: It's, it's very important, it's very important to the matter, if you ... We, er, we went down to the coast yesterday, and, er, I was too tired to watch the Olympics when I got back, and I'm very interested in the Olympics. So I went to get the paper particularly to see who won the steeple-chase.

MacLeod: Right, Ok. Let's forget that. Let's forget the newspaper. Let's talk about the journey out this morning.

Smith: Look, I don't want to comment any more on that. I've, we've said so much on the first tape. It's just, you know, people are going to get the impression that we're paranoiac about this, and I don't think it's worth all this fuss.

Smith: I don't think so. There's nothing in, in that earlier tape that could possibly be of any interest to you or me. You might think so, but I don't. You cannot keep looking at me like that.

Smith: We, we just need to sort out what is this all about. Can we put some cards on the table, and we can go away and sort this out.

MacLeod: Well, I'm certainly not going to put all my cards on the table at this time.

Smith: This is a farce, and I don't want to be involved in this sort of farce, so let's end the interview now.

MacLeod: Listen, we've got enquiries to carry out. We'll continue these enquiries as long as it takes. You're here to help us with these enquiries.

Smith: I want to help you, but you're putting me in a very awkward position, by asking me questions that, that are aimed at getting information from me that I, I can't see the reason for it. You've, you've got me under, er, er, scrutiny for something, and I don't know what it is. Why should I discuss anything with you when, when you're being like this. My solicitor …

Smith: … and I have discussed this before, and we wanted to find out some facts so that we could know how to answer them, but you're not giving us those facts, and if you don't give us the facts, I mean, I can, I can disregard this as being a waste of time.

MacLeod: Right. I, I can establish, I can prove evidentially that you received a telephone call this morning from a man called George.

Smith: If my wife talked to you about it, and I've talked to you about it, that's the only way you can prove that it happened. Isn't it?

MacLeod: That's for you to find out. I'm ending this interview now. The time is …

Beels: At the end of this interview, I will be asking you to sign the seal and master tape. Will you do so?

Beels: You already have a form, and your solicitor has the form 987 explaining your rights of access. I am now switching off the machine.

INTERVIEW 4 ~ TAPE 5

Beels: This interview is being tape-recorded. I am Detective Sergeant Stephen Beels, Special Branch, New Scotland Yard. The other officer present is …

MacLeod: I am Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod, also from Special Branch at New Scotland Yard.

Jefferies: My name is Richard Jefferies, Duty Solicitor, from Tuckers Solicitors.

Beels: We are in Interview Room number 2, at Paddington Green Police Station. At the end of this interview I will give you, sir, a form explaining your rights of access to a copy of the tape. The date is the 9th August, and the time by my watch is 2, 8 minutes past 2, in the afternoon. I must caution you Mr Smith. You do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be given in evidence. Do you understand?

Beels: You are entitled to free legal advice, and you have your solicitor here with you. Is that correct?

Beels: I understand you've been asked if you wish to have refreshments, something to eat, whilst in custody since yesterday, and today sir, you declined. Is that correct?

MacLeod: Mr Smith, you've obviously had time to reflect on the interviews that took place yesterday. I'm aware that you did exercise your right to silence on certain points, and I would like, just very briefly, to go back on one particular, on one particular point for clarification. I was asking you yesterday about the telephone call, that you had in the morning from a man named George. You told me that it was a mis-directed, a mis-routed telephone number. Is that still your answer?

MacLeod: Right. I'm now going to play for you a tape recording, that will prove that the answers that you gave me yesterday, to that very question, will prove that you were lying. I am going to enter this as exhibit SB/1.

Beels: I am taking a cassette tape out of its box, and putting it into a machine which is in front of the four of us. I'm now switching it on. (Telephone conversation commences).

CALLER: Hello, I am George speaking. I am colleague of your old friend Victor. Do you remember him?

CALLER: Ok. I think there is telephone at the corner of Durlston Road and Cardinal Avenue. You know this?

Beels: I am removing the tape from the recorder, and I will be producing this as, I said before, as exhibit SJB/4. I will sign the tape seal now, and as part of the sealing process, Mr Smith, I would ask you would you sign.

MacLeod: Right Mr Smith, you've had an opportunity to hear that tape. Have you got any comment to make?

MacLeod: But does that not demonstrate, that you clearly lied in your answer to me yesterday afternoon, when I asked you ...

MacLeod: Well that was your voice, that was your wife who answered the telephone.

Smith: Well, I explained yesterday, I humoured the guy. I'm not interested in what he had to say. I didn't act on his instructions, you know quite clearly I didn't.

MacLeod: It's blatantly obvious that you knew the nature of the call. You didn't stop to ask a question, well who is it, or what's this all about. You immediately responded.

MacLeod: Right, you've got no comment. You left your house, and you did go to that telephone box at the corner of Durlston Road and Cardinal Avenue. You entered the telephone box.

Smith: I don't even know where Durlston Road is. It's parallel to St Albans Road. It's nowhere near where I went.

MacLeod: You stayed there for a while inside the telephone box, obviously awaiting a telephone call, I would suggest. After that, you left the telephone box and you began jogging up to the vicinity of another telephone box on the corner of Latchmere Lane and Tudor drive. You didn't enter the telephone box, but you remained in the vicinity. Are you saying this happened, or didn't happen?

MacLeod: Right, Ok. I'm putting it to you, that this is the field craft that your KGB handler, Victor Oshchenko, taught you.

MacLeod: Oshchenko. I am telling you that that is the instructions that, during the time that you were trained by the KGB, that is the type of instruction that you received...

Smith: I was not trained by the KGB, as you put it, and I've got no comment on this, because I think you are, you're fabricating this now.

You've got every reason to give a satisfactory explanation, as to your behaviour yesterday, and the reason why you lied to me in interviews.

Smith: We had a full discussion on this matter yesterday, and I said no comment on any further discussions on this.

MacLeod: You are aware, from the changes that have taken place in the Soviet Union in recent times, there have been quite a number of former KGB, KGB people, passing information to Western Intelligence, even selling it for financial gain.

Smith: How would I possibly have any comment on that, how would I know that?

MacLeod: Reported by the media. I would have thought, you say that's not a matter that would excite your interest?

MacLeod: Are you saying that you're not aware of the changes that have taken place in the Soviet Union?

MacLeod: I'm talking about the collapse of communism. I'm talking about the collapse of the Communist Party in the Soviet Union. You are aware of that, you are an intelligent man.

MacLeod: And you will be aware also, of the archivage leaks that have taken place over the last number of ...

MacLeod: And it wouldn't surprise you either, that there have been quite a number of defections, people who formerly worked for the KGB?

Smith: It's pointless you asking me that sort of question, because how would I know?

MacLeod: Well, I think you would know, and I think, and I put it to you that we believe considerable…

Smith: Well, you've got to give me the reason, why you think I should know that, that sort of fact?

MacLeod: Well the reason is, and I thought I'd made this clear to you, the reason is that you were recruited by the KGB as an agent back in the early 70's. Are you saying that's a lie?

Smith: Well, I'm not going to answer any more questions on that type of subject, I'm sorry.

Smith: No, it doesn't, but I see no point in discussing something that happened that long ago.

MacLeod: Can I put it this way, you're here on suspicion of having committed a serious breach of national security. I would suggest that, if I've got it wrong, or if the intelligence people have got it wrong, then it's open to you to correct any wrong assumptions that we may have. I'm asking you simple questions about your background, whether or not you ever had any meetings with Russians, perhaps even in an innocent context, but I'm giving you the opportunity to tell me whether you ever did meet a Russian. Did you ever meet any Russians?

MacLeod: I'm talking about the Russians, because this is central to this investigation. I'll repeat the question. Did you ever meet any Russians?

Smith: It's partly that, but it's partly because I don't think it's right to discuss this until you put more cards on the table.

MacLeod: I thought I'd put my cards on the table, because I told you, that you were ...

Smith: I don't think. so. We have not yet reached the meat of your case, whatever your case is.

Smith: I'm sorry, until we get to that point, I think I'd better not comment any further.

MacLeod: Well, I cannot see, for the life of me, why if you had, for example, an innocent encounter or chance meeting or introduction during your trade union days, because we do know of that, to a Russian acquaintance. I would see nothing terribly suspicious about that. Are you saying that that did not happen?

MacLeod: Are you saying that you were never recruited by the Russian Intelligence Service, in other words the KGB, to work for them?

MacLeod: You're not commenting because it's right, or because it might incriminate you?

Beels: Mr Smith, did you ever meet with a Russian called Victor at any stage.

Beels: Did you ever meet with a Victor, an East European, who you lunched with regularly?

Smith: No comment. I've explained the only Victor I know, and he's a Spaniard.

MacLeod: I have to say, that I'm totally puzzled why a former KGB officer, who has now defected if you like, who is now co-operating with Western Intelligence, and is here in this country, and co-operating with us directly, why that man should say to us that Michael Smith, a man who formerly worked for Thorn EMI, in a position where he had access to classified material, why would they say, or why would he say that you worked for them, if that wasn't true? Why should he concoct ...

MacLeod: We have asked him. We have no reason to question the veracity of what he's saying to us. I'm giving you the opportunity to put your side. Can you say whether you ever met a man called Victor Oshchenko.

MacLeod: And he referred to you as Mike. You met regularly, did you not, way back in the mid 70's.

Smith: I've never referred to anybody as Vic, and I know that is absolutely true. As I told you before, the only person I ever knew called Victor was a Spaniard, and I call him Victor, because I think it's more polite. So if anybody had said I called them Vic, that is definitely untrue, because I do not like the name Vic. I would never call Victor, Vic. It sounds like cough medicine.

MacLeod: However, you addressed each other, this man, a former KGB Intelligence Officer, has accused you of working for them in the mid 1970's. In fact, I'll be specific, from about the start of, from May '76, when you went to work for Thorn EMI. You went to Thorn EMI.

MacLeod: July '76. Right, I beg your pardon, July '76. What prompted you to leave your former employment, to go to work for Thorn EMI?

MacLeod: I mean, that's a fairly … Was it for career development, promotion, was it for financial ...

MacLeod: Just as a point of clarification. I see no reason in asking you a fairly simple question. I don't think …

Smith: I've got nothing to hide about it, but I don't see any reason to discuss it now, so I'm not going to comment at this stage.

MacLeod: You don't want to comment, even though a simple question like that just might help to throw some light on this whole business, as to whether or not there is any substance to this allegation. It would give you the opportunity of putting your case.

MacLeod: It's suggested, that the reason that you went to work for Thorn EMI, was because the KGB had recruited you. They had advised you, they had advised you to sever all links with the CPGB, the Communist Party of Great Britain, to sever all your links with the trade union movement.

Smith: I've got a very good explanation for what happened at that time, but I'm not going to discuss it with you at this time.

MacLeod: Even though that, that might just advantage, be to your advantage at this stage?

Smith: I don't think it is, because we haven't yet reached what it is I'm being accused of, so I see no point in beating about the bush on fringe subjects.

MacLeod: Right. Well, it may appear to you to be fringe subjects, but they're not fringe subjects to me. They're very much central to this investigation, because what I'm saying to you is that the reason you severed your links with the trade union movement, the reason you severed your links with the CPGB, was at the behest of the KGB who instructed you.

MacLeod: Who instructed you to adopt a more conservative ‘life style'. They encouraged you to take up tennis.

MacLeod: Yes tennis, because Vic bought you a, he bought you tennis racket, did he not, do you not remember that?

Smith: I very rarely read the Telegraph, except on a Thursday when the job pages are there, because it's a good paper for that. I don't read, I very rarely read any newspapers actually, it's only when I feel in the mood.

MacLeod: Ok, well, what I'm saying to you is that you changed your life style, you applied for a number of jobs that the KGB had drawn up for you, and one of the companies that was included in that list of companies was Thorn EMI, and that gave you access.

Smith: Look, I say that is untrue. I'll say it on the record, that is untrue. But I will elaborate further when the time comes.

Smith: We, I am still waiting for you to get onto the subject of why I'm here.

MacLeod: Well I'm coming to it now. During the time that you were engaged to Thorn EMI, you were involved in a project which was classified secret, concerning the British nuclear weapon. Is that right?

MacLeod: In fact, you were, or rather had oversight of what was going on on a particular part of that project, and that concerned … what was known as the XN715 fuze, for the free-fall nuclear weapon WE177. Is that right?

Smith: We discussed that point yesterday. I made a full point on that yesterday

MacLeod: Yes, but I still wasn't very clear on it, whether you did or you didn't?

Beels: When you say you'll make no comment, to the fact that you were working on a particular secret project, is that because you can't remember that particular project?

Smith: I choose not to discuss it with you people. Who I don't know your, your security clearance, or whether I'm overstepping the mark by discussing it at all. So I choose not to comment.

MacLeod: Can I just put this to your solicitor then, if it is of any reassurance, your solicitor will be able to ascertain that, from somebody other than me, as to whether or not I have got or we have got that security clearance. I can assure you.

Smith: That would help. I don't know whether, even, if my solicitor should be hearing this. Sorry, I think we're in very dodgy ground here, and I think it's better not to comment on it.

MacLeod: So, even if your solicitor was given an unequivocal assurance by somebody in authority, that we have got that clearance, you still wouldn't be prepared to …?

Smith: Well, the people I've dealt with, are in a different department to you. Sorry, I don't know the relationship between you.

MacLeod: I'm sure you have. I can assure you we've got high security clearance, so I'll come back to this again. This fuze, for the free-fall nuclear weapon, was something that Victor had tasked you to receive.

MacLeod: You made a sketch, or you made a mental note and then you made a sketch, and then you photographed the sketch, and then you handed the film to Victor.

MacLeod: I'm sure you haven't, because that's the central thrust of this investigation. That is what Victor is saying about you.

Smith: But if that's true, you must have this film, and you can show it to us, and we can discuss that. Because otherwise, you're just dealing with a hypothetical situation, and I want to see the evidence, so we can discuss the evidence, and I will confirm or not what I see.

MacLeod: Can I just ask you when you, um, when it was that you visited Vienna?

Smith: Well, I don't want to get involved in arguments, discussions about things which are not pertinent to the heart of this case, and that's what I want to do, I want to get this over as quickly as possible. I want to discuss what it is that I am supposed to have done, and then we can sort it out.

Smith: Well, Ok, what you, the nearest we have got to it is you are talking about a film. Now I want to see, this film is obviously very important evidence.

MacLeod: This is only one aspect of the matter which is under investigation, only one aspect.

MacLeod: That disclosure was highly damaging to Western Security, to our national security, and you betrayed those secrets to the KGB.

MacLeod: Do you agree, or do you not agree. You betrayed those secrets to the KGB?

Smith: I've got no comment on that, we're discussing something here, about a film.

MacLeod: Is it no comment, because it's outside your knowledge, or it's no comment because it might incriminate you?

Smith: I've just no comment to make while we're discussing things in this manner, but I thought we were here to discuss something that we could put on the table, and say, “that's what you've done”, and I don't see that evidence being presented in a way that I can accept it. Surely, if it was the other way round, you would be the same with me.

MacLeod: When I asked you earlier on, about that telephone conversation that you had yesterday morning, you said put your cards on the table. You asked me, or you told me, you didn't know what that telephone conversation was all about, you dismissed it lightly, as if it was a mis-directed call.

MacLeod: You lied, you told me first off that it was some mis-directed call, mis-routed call. You picked it up, and it was some raving ...

MacLeod: But there was no indication from you, during that conversation, that it was, the purpose of the telephone call was other than to convey a message to you, to go to a certain venue, at a certain time. Now you ask me to put my cards on the table. I've put my cards on the table. Can you account for that.

Smith: I can't account for that, because I don't know who George is. We discussed all this yesterday. Now, George may be a friend of yours, I don't know. Maybe you've asked George to ring me up to incriminate me.

Smith: I would like to know who George is, because I certainly don't know who George is. I've never heard that voice, in fact, that sounds like an actor's voice to me.

Beels: But you clearly knew Victor, when Victor's name was mentioned, your reply was "yes".

Smith: I was half asleep. I was joking to my wife at the time, about who this was. I didn't know who this guy was. Look, I've been as open as I can about that call. You've presented me now with a tape, which I obviously haven't heard. I'd like to know where you got that tape from, because I didn't record that on my answering machine.

MacLeod: What I'm asking you is, was that the telephone conversation that took place between you and the man George yesterday?

Smith: I'm not going to comment, because I don't know where that tape came from, if that's a fabricated ...

Smith: Well then, you have to produce evidence as to how you received that tape.

MacLeod: That would be done. You can rest assured on that score, that would be done. So I will go back to my first question. You understood the purport of that message conveyed by George yesterday.

Smith: I've got no comment on that, because this is, trying to put words into my mouth, that I knew something about what the call was about. The call was completely out of the blue, how could I possibly know what it was about?

Smith: You can re-play it as much as you like, I'm not going to comment on it. Let's get to the evidence, that you think I've, I've ...

MacLeod: The evidence, the evidence is that that was consistent with KGB means of communicating with an agent.

Smith: We need to talk about the evidence that you're coming out with, about a film or something of that nature, which is pertinent to this case.

MacLeod: On or over a period of time. Let's go back to Vienna again. Let's talk about Vienna.

MacLeod: Can't you remember that visit. Your wife can remember it. How can she remember it and you can't remember.

Smith: Your discussions with my wife have got nothing to do with this discussion, I'm afraid.

MacLeod: Oh, they have, they have. Your wife has been interviewed like yourself, under caution, and she has told us of the various trips you've made at different times. Well, we'll talk specifically about Vienna, a business trip to Vienna. We're just about to change the tape.

Beels: The tape is coming to an end, so I'm bringing this part of the interview to a conclusion. The time is 2:38 pm.

INTERVIEW 4 ~ TAPE 6

Beels: The time now is 2:40 pm, and we are continuing this interview between Mr MacLeod and Mr Smith.

MacLeod: Mr Smith, if you've got nothing to hide, why can't you tell me about the trip you made to Vienna?

Smith: I'm not commenting on anything, but if we get to the meat of this matter, which is apparently a film, let's discuss the film please.

Smith: Well, if this is the meat of your case, then I think it's very relevant …

MacLeod: Over a period of time you sold secrets. You sold classified information to the Russians.

MacLeod: I can tell you the reason that you made a visit to Vienna was at the behest of the KGB. And, can you remember what they did to you on that occasion, or what they asked you to undertake?

Beels: Would you be willing to talk about any trips abroad, at any time during your life?

Smith: Not at this stage I wouldn't, no, because I think you are going to build some case on I'm travelling around the world, selling secrets or something, I don't understand the course of that question.

Smith: Well, the case you've obviously presented, is that I've sold a film to a Russian agent. Now, I want to see evidence of what this film is, when I sold it, who I gave it to. That sort of evidence that means something to me.

MacLeod: Let's go back to the early days of your recruitment, and how you were introduced to the Russians. Through the trade union, through a trade union meeting? What motivated you? Was it ideological reasons?

Smith: Let me put it this way. Trade union meetings aren't places where Russians hang out. I can assure you.

MacLeod: There have been a number of changes taken place, as I'm sure I don't have to tell you, within the Communist Party of Great Britain during the late '60s and early '70s.

MacLeod: We, you don't have to comment if you don't wish, but what I'm saying to you is, we could prove that you were a member of the Communist Party, that you admitted this to your Vetting Officers, that you deceived your employers at Thorn EMI by omitting any reference to your past Communist Party connections, and thereby achieving security clearance up to, up to secret. And it was only subsequently, long after you'd been selling secrets to the Russians, that your security clearance came under review, and in fact was removed, because of your previous CPGB connections.

Smith: Those sort of things, er, I was told at a meeting, at this meeting that I had with my Positive Vetting, I was told that security clearance is not normally discussed with people, so why should I have any, any worries about that.

MacLeod: You've got reason to have every worry, because it was because of your ideological adherence to communism. It was because of your need for money. Now don't forget money came into this. You were paid fair sums, and this is what we're looking at the moment. This was one of the reasons we asked the court today, to give us more time to investigate your bank accounts. You can rest assured we're doing that. We know from Victor that you received payments at regular intervals. He has dropped you in it. You must understand by now, that I'm not bluffing.

Smith: Well, I'd like to meet this guy, because he has obviously done me a bad turn. I'd like to get this sorted out with him. Can we have this discussion with him present?

MacLeod: I don't think you've done yourself any favours. It's you who have dropped yourself in it.

MacLeod: He has accused you. Now isn't it a strange coincidence, isn't it a strange coincidence, here you've got a man who is a former member of the Communist Party, who changed his lifestyle back in the mid '70s away from communism, over to a more sort of conservative lifestyle, who disassociated himself from his previous friends in the trade union movement. Who disassociated himself from the Young Communist League, in fact you weren't on the executive committee very long, were you, you were only about 7 months on it.

MacLeod: Yes, of the Communist Party, the young YCL, Young Communist League.

Smith: That's a lie. I don't know where you got that from, that's definitely not true.

MacLeod: Well, if you weren't on the executive committee, you were certainly associated with the Young Communist League. In fact, it was, it's on record in connection with your vetting enquiry, so I'm not making anything up here, and it was at their behest that you changed your lifestyle, so as not to draw attention to yourself. You must have got a bit of a surprise, I'm sure, that day you were out with Vic, or Victor as you prefer to refer to him. You must have got a bit of a shock at Hampton Court, did you not, when you had a chance encounter with Andy Wilson, your old chum from the trade union. That was not very professional for a KGB controller or agent, was it? The way you went about that meeting, not very professional at all, you were frightened by that, and so was, so was Victor.

Smith: I'm not frightened of anything. I'm not sitting here acting frightened, am I?

Smith: Look, I've got no comment until we get on to the facts of the case. Then we can discuss it.

MacLeod: Do you understand from the gist of this interview, and previous interviews, coupled with what I told a magistrate today, about this being based on the defection of your previous handler/controller, call him what you like ...

Smith: I have no controller but myself. I want to make that clear, I'm not controlled by anybody, I never have been. I'm very much my own man.

MacLeod: Well right, Ok. That, that's, shall we say your handler, the man who you met regularly, from time to time, in Richmond Common around the Kingston area.

Smith: I don't know where you, if he's told you all these, these places I'm supposed to have met him. Then where is the evidence, because I'm not going to discuss something based on one man's opinions.

Smith: If you have evidence to give, then please put it forward and we'll discuss it.

MacLeod: I, I did allude earlier on, to the number of defections that have taken place from amongst the former KGB people. Now you told me that you didn't, you only knew one Victor, and he was the son of a Spaniard friend of yours.

MacLeod: Yes, and you tell me you don't know this Victor Oshchenko, and I'll tell you there was another Victor. Just reflect on that for a moment.

MacLeod: Well, I would like, I would have liked you to tell me. Now, just to make, just to demonstrate to you that we're not bluffing. You probably remember the time that you went to pick up a massage from a DLB, or a dead letter box as it's known, yeah?.

MacLeod: From a telephone kiosk, only to find that the children had removed the message before you got there. Now, where did that information come from? How am I aware of that? You know that.

MacLeod: I know that, and you know who it was that was handling you at that time.

Smith: Well, if you've got evidence, as I'm saying, put it on the table. Let's talk about something concrete. All this is, er, the rantings of somebody who obviously wants to tell you as much as he can. He wants to impress you, obviously.

Beels: We've tried Mr Smith, we've tried to talk about something concrete, i.e. ...

Smith: No, no, I'm not refusing to discuss it any time. I'm refusing to discuss it here and now, with people who I am not convinced are the right people to talk to in this case.

Beels: Although we've given you the opportunity to be assured, by your legal representative, that we are cleared to a sufficiently high level.

MacLeod: You have to account to us for your behaviour in the past, if only to demonstrate that we've got it wrong, because it's equally important to us that we get to the bottom of the line.

Smith: Ok, if I, if I've done something wrong. If I've handed something to somebody that I shouldn't have done, then let's talk about the evidence you have for that and we can discuss it.

Smith: That's what I said exactly, at the beginning. Until you're prepared to do that, I can see no further action but to say I can't comment.

MacLeod: The allegation has been made against you by a senior KGB officer, who is now co-operating with us.

Smith: Well, he had better get his facts straight, because he's not giving me facts which I can tie up with my life.

MacLeod: Would you not agree, that you would have had motivation to work for the Russians, perhaps because of ideological reasons. I mean, you were a communist.

Smith: I, I have no sympathy with, er, the Soviet Union or East European countries. I find that the state of their economies is in a mess. It is not the sort of place I would want to live or to work, and I, I've got no doubt that I, I would …

MacLeod: What persuaded you then? And I don't think this is a difficult question to answer, because it's already in the official sort of, um, domain, er, official records.

Smith: I'll tell you exactly why. I was becoming disillusioned for a long time, but it was a trip I made to the Soviet Union on, er, it was a youth trip to 4 cities. It showed me what a terrible state the country was in, people were coming up to me and saying could I sell them my jeans, um, the sort of things that you would imagine more in a third world country, and I thought this is not the country that's being portrayed to the outside countries. And certainly it's, it's a mess, but they're presenting a ideologically, it's a wonderful place, and I found that that was the thing that turned me off more than anything.

MacLeod: So when was it you actually visited then, what date would, what year would that be roughly?

Smith: It was Moscow, Leningrad, Kiev and Vilnius. And the reason I'm telling you that, is because I want to clear up once and for all, the fact that it wasn't because somebody asked me to leave or become disillusioned, it was what I saw was the evidence of my own eyes, and I think the same went for a lot of other people on that trip. A lot of people came back saying what, what a terrible place this was.

MacLeod: Well I could perhaps understand that, but the people that made up the trip, were they people of a similar persuasion to yourself, who perhaps have …?

Smith: I don't know who the people. I didn't know who the official organiser of that trip was.

MacLeod: Well that's, right, Ok, right, Ok, because up to then, I mean, you did have left-wing views, you were a member of the Communist Party.

Smith: I went there as tourist, and I am not going to say I went there for any other reason, because I didn't.

Smith: It was, um, I would like to answer it. I can't remember the name of the company.

Beels: Ok, uh, but who were you in the company of? Did you travel alone, or with …?

Smith: It was advertised, and anybody could have gone on that trip, and I don't ...

Smith: I went with a few people I knew, yes. I wouldn't say they were friends particularly, we just associates.

Beels: Of similar to a, political leanings of, er, was it a sort of Young Communist League group, or …?

Smith: It was a mixture, but I wouldn't say they were all ideologically interested. Some just wanted a cheap holiday.

MacLeod: So, just to get the chronology right in my own mind. Was it as a result of that experience that you, when you returned to this country, that you ceased to have anything to do with the Young Communist League?

Smith: That's true, and I think you can trace it to that date. Maybe I might have mixed with the people a bit longer, because, er, I'd known them for a while, but I didn't have any reason to sort of continue in a determined way. I just drifted apart from them, because I'd lost interest.

Beels: This was 1975. Did, er, the journey you took to the United States, the following year, have any bearings on your views.

Smith: I was very impressed by the United States. It's the attitude of the people. It was very refreshing. They're very much more the sort of people who would want to go out and make a life for themselves. I identify very much the way I feel, and the way I still feel about, if you want to do something you can achieve it if you've got the right, um, atmosphere.

Beels: What about the political system, as you, as you saw it. Did that not give you any, er, …

Smith: It was, it was more, um, I got the feeling it was much more, um, a commercially orientated system. I saw the lives of the people, or the people I met there, it's very much more, um, happy, and, er, generally they're better off than the people in the Soviet Union. There is no doubt about it, and it's still the case, it certainly was then.

Beels: But the political structure of the two countries, of the Soviet Union and the United States?

Smith: Like chalk and cheese. I mean, I would never think you can compare them on any level. I mean, they were quite different. Much more open in the United States. In fact, Canada, I went to, I like Canada very much. I was very impressed by that, probably more so than the States even, because it was a bit more European, people seemed to be a bit less brash perhaps, you know, but very friendly. I mean, the whole of North America is a very friendly place, I think.

MacLeod: That was in 1976, when you went to the States. Um, can I just get clear in my own mind when it was, um, because I'm a little bit out of sync here. The, you went to the Soviet Union, this tour back in 1975, this early mid/late '75, when you went there. Was it a summer trip, or winter trip?

MacLeod: And how long after that was it, when you came back to this country, when you returned home, that you severed your links with the ...?

Smith: I don't want to discuss that, because I think that's, it's getting a bit more on the ground that I'd like to discuss when we get on to the more serious stuff.

MacLeod: But we are, we are getting onto the serious stuff, and I think we've ever got away from it, because I would just like to hear from you, when it was that you severed your links with the communists, and for what reason?

Smith: Look, I've told you the reason. It was because I was disillusioned with, with what was being presented to me.

Beels: The trip to America. Can you remember when that was, what time, time of the year. Early, summer time?

Smith: Financed? What paid for? I think I bought the ticket on ACCESS, I think.

Smith: It wasn't that expensive actually, because I was staying at friends, and they were buying all the food. I took them a few presents over, because a friend of mine wanted some English shirts. In fact, like bartering I suppose. They paid for the food while I was over there, and I gave them a couple of shirts.

MacLeod: So, when you came back from the United States, was that before or after you joined EMI?

MacLeod: Well, were you working for EMI at the time that you went to the United States?

Smith: Well, it must have been, yes, because I started in July, June? I'm not sure, June or July ...

MacLeod: So you were working for EMI, at the time of your visit to the United States?

Beels: Now, you've been, you said you've been to Moscow, to the Soviet Union. You've been to Canada. You've been to the United States. Um, Austria, have you been to Austria?

Smith: I want to explain. The reason you were asking me about that time, was because it was a critical period in my life, and I was changing my views on things.

Smith: That's got nothing to do with this period we're talking about, I thought we were talking about the mid-'70s.

MacLeod: We're talking about any time. And we are talking about 1979 now. Why should that be any different from talking about your trip to the United States, talking about your trip to the …?

Smith: My trip to the Soviet Union was an eye opener for me, and it, and it made a lot of changes in my life. The trip to the States was very important to me too, because it re-enforced what I felt I wanted out of life.

MacLeod: Well, frankly, I don't believe you, because your trip to the Soviet Union would have coincided with the time that you were recruited by the Russians. So what you're telling me …

MacLeod: …is a load of old cods-wallop. You're telling me that you were disillusioned with the system?

Smith: Well, how could I, how could that be happening at the time when I'm being shown what the place is really like. I mean, it's not, it's just not, doesn't add up does it?

MacLeod: Many people, um, who may have visited the Soviet Union, may not have been deflected from maybe deep-seated political convictions.

Smith: I'm sure there aren't. I know people who certainly weren't deflected, and would always see what they wanted to see. But I'm not like that, I'm very much – what's the word? - somebody who will always, will look for weaknesses in things, and if I can see it's not what it's cracked up to be, I can see through it. I'm not, I'm not blinkered.

MacLeod: Well, I come back to this main point. By the time you went to the Soviet Union, you were, about that time, recruited by the KGB. In fact, your visit to America was supported, funded by the KGB.

Smith: That's not true. I paid for that trip myself, and I can't see how you could show otherwise.

Smith: How could you possibly show otherwise? I'm sure, if the records go back that far, I paid for it on ACCESS. I remember paying for the ticket in a travel agent's in Hook, I think it was Hook, and I don't see how that could possibly be construed as being paid for by some other organisation.

MacLeod: Well, of course it's important. Well, I'm telling you what I know, so that you are under no illusion.

MacLeod: Can I just ask, was it for personal reasons that you left Rediffusion?

MacLeod: Was it disillusionment with the management? Was it the lack of career prospects?

MacLeod: No, but I think there is no point putting off, we've got to really get down to these issues.

Smith: I said to you look, I want to get straight to the meat of this matter, so we can get it over with.

Smith: And you're beating about the bush on all the things that happened, you're picking and choosing times throughout, er, this period in the '70s, and I don't know what time we're actually talking about. When I'm supposed to have, have, have created this offence. You're not giving me the facts on that, so how can I possibly …

Smith: Are you saying that, when I was at Rediffusion, I had something to do with this man, is that what you're saying?

MacLeod: Well, Ok, forget the, forget the reason, that it may have been for ulterior motives. Supposing that is not this now.

MacLeod: That you left Rediffusion, to go to EMI, because you were tasked to do so by your KGB contact.

Smith: I've already explained that. That's not true. I don't want to comment any further on my reasons for leaving Rediffusion. I, I …

MacLeod: This could put, this could clear your position, or could make it, could clarify your position.

MacLeod: Because I'm suggesting to you, that the reason that you left Rediffusion was because you were tasked by the KGB controller, whoever it was, and it was I believe at that time it was Victor Oshchenko. You were tasked by him to ...

Smith: Was it Victor Oshchenko … Ochenko … I'm confused now who we're talking about?

MacLeod: Oshchenko. I'll spell it for you if you wish, so that you're under no illusion.

Smith: I think we would need to have this written down somewhere, because I, this man's name, er, might be significant.

MacLeod: I think you may have it written down elsewhere, or you may have written it down in the past.

MacLeod: Well you were certainly aware of it. Now, let's stick to the central point I'm trying to make. The reason that you left Rediffusion was at the behest of your KGB controller, and you were tasked with applying for a number of posts within different companies that were carrying out contract work for the British Government.

MacLeod: You were successful with EMI because you lied on your application form, about your past connections with the Communist Party.

Smith: If, look, if this, if it makes it any clearer. To the best of my knowledge, and I'm not lying, the best of my knowledge is that I saw an advertisement in a newspaper, that was for electronic or something engineers, at EMI at Feltham. I, I applied for an application form, I filled

it in, they gave me an interview and they offered me the job. That was exactly the way it happened. And I didn't go around looking at different companies to see who I could join. It just came up.

Beels: Ok. I'll bring this part of the interview to an end, just to change tapes. I'm going to switch the machine off. I make the time now 3:07 pm.

INTERVIEW 4 ~ TAPE 7

Beels: The time now is 3:10 pm in the Interview Room, number 2 of Paddington Green Police Station. We're continue the interview of Mr Smith.

Jefferies: Could I just ask my client to be re-cautioned, considering the length of time since the first caution.

Beels: Ok, sir, yes. I must remind you that you do not have to say anything, Mr Smith, unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be given in evidence. Do you understand that?

MacLeod: Right, if we can just pick up, um. You say that you never met any Russians.

MacLeod: Ok. So you're not going to comment. Can you remember meeting, er, the TASS correspondent, back here in, er, May 1975? A man called Ozerov?

Smith: I'm getting a bit worried that all these people are called Victor. I'm sorry. I, it's rather amusing, but, er, I can't comment on that, because, er, I don't know the name and, er, it's just pointless.

MacLeod: Ok. Right. So you left Rediffusion to join EMI in July 1976. Just answer one question, Mr Smith. Did you, were you going there on a higher salary?

MacLeod: You did. Now can I just ask that question again. You left Rediffusion to go to EMI because you were earning more?

MacLeod: Well, I'm going to suggest to you that, that is not the case. You in actual fact took a pay cut.

Smith: That is not true. I, I, wherever you got that information from, that is not true. I'm absolutely convinced that I, I had a pay rise. It may not have been very much, because pay rises in those days weren't very much, but I started on a salary of I think £3,100, or something. I think I was on £2,800, or something, in Rediffusion. So, it definitely wasn't a pay cut. In fact, I've only taken, er, one pay cut in all my life.

Smith: Rediffusion doesn't exist anymore. You won't find this, it's a housing estate now. I could have told you that if you had asked me. So, it would be pointless ringing anybody up there, because it doesn't exist.

MacLeod: But the main point is that you, you were making more money by going there, and it wasn't long after you went there, in fact, in fact it was down at the, the Systems and Weapons Division in Feltham. Was it not, when, when you took up your employment with EMI?

MacLeod: Yes. I'm saying where you were working. You were working at Feltham at the Systems and Weapons Division?

MacLeod: And not long after that, er, you were assigned to the development of the XN715.

Smith: We, we've already discussed that. I'm not going to comment on that matter.

Smith: I'm not aware of the classification. I, I've been informed by people, er, in security matters at the MoD, that, um, it's not made clear to people, the nature of some of the work, and, um, so I don't think I can comment on that. It's not within my ability to comment on that.

MacLeod: So, are you telling me that you were engaged on a project in the Systems and Weapons Division, which was looking specifically at the free-fall nuclear bomb, and you didn't know that that was classified secret?

Smith: I didn't say that. You're, you're asking me about the classification of, of the project. I'm, I'm not aware of what the classification of the project was.

MacLeod: Yes, and you were, in what capacity, just to remind you, you were a test engineer there. Is that right?

Smith: I'm not going to discuss the project at all. It's a classified project, and as I've explained before ...

MacLeod: But you just told me, a few moments ago, you didn't even know it was classified. You didn't know what classification ...

Smith: Well, you were talking about the project. I'm, I'm taking the project as meaning the overall project, you know. Not, not, um, the bits I might have been involved in.

Smith: I wasn't involved in the whole ... The whole project involved other companies. It wasn't just me.

MacLeod: But let's, let's not, let's not widen this. You were a test engineer looking at a specific area of this particular project. You were looking at this fuse, that was to be ...

Smith: I'm not, all I will tell you is I was a test engineer at EMI Electronics.

Smith: Not of the overall. I was aware of the nature of, the bit of the project that I was working on.

Smith: Well, electronic equipment, and, er, not all of that I think was secret. Some of it was restricted.

Beels: But was it totally, er, concerned with weapons systems, or were there other projects?

Smith: Well, you know that, that the nature of, er, EMI Electronics is, er, it is really a military set-up, and, um, I think that speaks for itself.

Beels: Yes, but, I mean, the military will, wouldn't be purely concerned with weapons, there would be support equipment, etc. But was the particular work that you were involved in, specifically involved and concerned with weapons?

Smith: I was specifically involved in one project, on which I was acting as a test engineer, in which I helped in, er, developing test procedures, and proving equipment for use in trials. Er, I didn't get involved in anything to do with the other parts of the project, which were, as I say, involved other companies.

Beels: No, but you, you, you must have had an overall picture of what your particular part of the project was covering?

Smith: I wouldn't like to say I had an overall view of it. I, I saw bits of it, and bits that went together. I didn't …

Beels: You understood the nature of, of the work that you were on. That it was part of an overall project, and you had an understanding of the nature of that overall project. Would that be, sort of correct?

Smith: Well the nature of it, yes. I mean, I wouldn't say any more than that.

MacLeod: Your employers might suggest, or not suggest, but indeed state, that you had access to all documents on the fuze.

Smith: That is not true. If, if they state that, their records are wrong. The only record, the only, er, documents I had access to were to do with, um, procedures, and, um, a few specifications on sub-assemblies, because at the time I left they hadn't completed, the project wasn't complete. So I, I couldn't have access to information that hadn't yet been written.

MacLeod: Ok, but during that time that you were there, during the time you were engaged in that project, you had access to all the documents relating to the fuze.

Smith: No, that's not true. They were locked away. I didn't have access to all of them. In fact, to get access I had to go and sign the documents out, and your records will show that the only documents I ever signed out, I think, were, were very minor, um, matters, which could not have given anybody any suspicion about their being secret or not. They, they were too, too far down the tree. The top level documents, obviously were ones that weren't easily available, and they were kept by the Project Managers. I mean, I had no access to those.

Smith: There were other slacknesses, and, er, in, er, in view of what I was saying before the Positive vetting I went through. I described various anomalies in the security system there, which I wanted to bring to their attention.

Beels: How and when did you do that? How did you bring that to the attention of the MoD?

MacLeod: Well I, I think it's, it's quite, um, important in perhaps illustrating the security, or the lack of it, as you were suggesting it.

Smith: I didn't say anything about the lack of security on documentation. I think that's what you were talking about.

MacLeod: Well I think you said it would be easy. This is what you told your Vetting Officer. It would be easy to take a fuze out of the site in a shopping bag, because there were no site, er, no checks at the gates.

MacLeod: Well, if security, if you're saying on the one hand, security was tight, and on the other hand, you can leave a bit of kit like this lying around, that you could walk out with?

Smith: Well, it was in a different building for one thing. What I'm discussing here is that the documentation was locked away in cabinets every night, and it was not, it would have been noticed if it was missing. I mean, it wasn't something that, um, was treated very lightly. I mean, they, they did on the project I was working on, they did treat security very tightly. I'm talking about a small

part of the company now, not the, the overall security system, and things are, um, little microcosms, aren't they, where parts of the company …

MacLeod: But. Why would they leave them lying around then? I mean, can you just …

Smith: I, I, I noticed it when I was over there one day, There was, er, one of these, um, systems which we're talking about was, was laying there, and, um, it could have, as I described it, could have just been, walked off with.

Smith: I, I wanted to bring that to the people's attention, because I, I realised the implications, they should have been locked away.

MacLeod: I suggest that what you were doing was covering your own back, because you had done just precisely that.

MacLeod: Maybe not, but you may just … You may not have walked off with a fuze, but you, er, made a note of it...

Smith: There's no way in which I would have walked off with a fuze, if that's what you're think. I mean, if that's what this man is saying to you, then he, he must be an idiot. Because a fuze is something that was very well documented. If one had gone missing, it would have been all hell to pay. Even if one of, of the assemblies had gone missing, they were all serialised. It was very tightly controlled. They were locked away in cupboards every night.

Beels: So, what sort of items are you saying it, it was possible, or it was likely people could walk out with?

Smith: It wasn't possible anything could have been walked off with, without somebody noticing, and if, if there's a record of something going missing, while I was there, I'd like to know about it.

MacLeod: Just give me an idea of the size of these fuzes. I, I mean, is it small, is it portable …?

Smith: I'm not going to discuss sizes. That is part of the specification. It's not something I want to discuss with you.

MacLeod: I mean, you, you said that somebody could walk off with them in a shopping bag, as suggested.

Smith: Well, you, you can think about the size of shopping bags you can buy, and perhaps that might give you an idea.

MacLeod: Were you, um … How did you feel when they withdrew your security clearance?

Smith: It's difficult to put it into words. I, um, I was more concerned about my, er, career prospects than anything.

Smith: No, not, not just that, but the fact that it might restrict my, my job opportunities.

MacLeod: Why, the opportunities it might afford you for supplying the KGB with …?

Smith: No, that's not what I meant. My work in Quality Assurance is something which, er, I hold very dear. I'm, I'm a good Quality Assurance engineer. Previous bosses of mine have, have respected my abilities, and I feel that within some of the military projects was the highest level of quality assurance that I could find, and I was very interested technically and professionally in working in that sort of environment, and that's the, what I missed most when I left EMI Electronics, was that I could no longer, um, not, it's not disrespect to other people, but I could no longer work at that level.

Smith: … and to drop to, to something which I felt was, er, a less, um, less demanding or less stimulating environment, and that's why I wrote the letter to the MoD Directorate of Security, because I felt, er, in some way they, they'd gone overboard on, on removing my security clearance.

Smith: I wasn't upset in, in a, in a, in the way that people might feel I'm going to get back at them, or something. It wasn't like that.

Smith: Well, not lost, because I, I had the opportunity. I'd seen what, what it was like to work in that environment and I enjoyed it.

MacLeod: A lost opportunity to develop your skills within that particular environment?

Smith: Yes, but I, I, I don't look back on it, um, with regret now, because now I've moved on. I've, I've got new skills, and I've got new interests, and now that, that sort of environment doesn't appeal to me so much. I mean, in fact, as we mentioned yesterday, I've, um, applied for a job at Ferranti, which was just through the internal vacancy system, and I think the guy wanted to offer me the job. I mean, the way he was talking to me in the interview, but in many ways I don't feel, if he offered it, I would take it, because I, I feel that would be a rather, um, stifling environment now. I'm far happier in, er, a more sort of commercial, um, consumer orientated company, which, er, would probably be of more use to the country.

MacLeod: How did you get on with your colleagues in, er, Thorn EMI, or EMI as it was in those days?

Smith: Er, there was, um, if I can give you the names. My boss was a guy called Brian Stone. I …

Smith: My immediate boss, and I think I got on quite well with him. He was older than me. And it was no more than that, he was just the boss. Um, there was a guy called Geoff Brown, I remember. He was, er, a, a bit of a, a weak character, but he was quite friendly, and, er, Bob Millward.

Smith: I, I didn't take them home. I, I, a couple of times we went to places. I remember there was a guy, I, I think I went to a concert with. There were 2 other people there, that went on a course that I was on. It was an MSc. Course, and, um, 2 of the people from either that lab, or the next door lab to where I was working, went on the same course. It was, it was that sort of thing. We were quite chummy, and, er, ...

MacLeod: Did any of these people share your former political beliefs. Did you ever discuss politics at all?

Smith: Politics wasn't really discussed. The only time, um, politics were being discussed, it was, um, your usual sort of thing - Conservative, Labour, that sort of discussion – and, but I would, would have said perhaps naïve. You know, sort of, the way people discuss things when they're just getting a bit uptight about the way things are.

MacLeod: So, when your, your, um, past sort of, if you like, affiliations with the Communist Party came to notice, you, you were moved to unclassified work in May '78. In fact, they promoted you, um, in the EMI Medical Section as a Quality Engineer.

MacLeod: What, er, can you, because you were out of the sort of sensitive, um, security kind of work, of the environment you'd been sort of used to. Just, well, there's clearly no secrets here, so tell us about your work with the Medical Section. What was it?

Smith: Well, the work was, um, wasn't particularly, er, demanding in many ways. I, I don't think the job really existed. I was put, put there really to get me out of the way, I think, and I, I was dabbling in things. It was, it was really about product improvement, improvement of the brain and body scanners which, um, EMI were developing at that time. It was, er, it was quite interesting in some ways I suppose, but I never really got to grips with the job, the way I had at EMI Electronics.

MacLeod: Was, was that because you were out of the, um, Defence industry side of it?

Smith: Well I think it was a different philosophy, a different bias on the work.

Smith: There, there were a lot of problems at EMI Medical, and that's why it collapsed, and I could see them from the inside, and I, I did my bit to try and help it.

Smith: It collapsed because of all sorts of problems with product, product, er, design, project management problems. It was a management disaster, I think, and, er, they were lucky to, um, end up where they made more money than they lost, I think, but it, it wasn't a very, er, good time to be there.

Smith: Well, er, as we understand, I mean, it wasn't promotion. I was being moved sideways to, to get me away from EMI Electronics, and it, it wasn't until later I found out that that was the reason.

Smith: Because, er, as I explained, EMI Medical was collapsing. The place where I was working, which was down at, um, Frimley at that time, was going to be, I think, taken over by another part of EMI. I was offered a job at Radlett, and I'd just moved into my flat with my wife. We'd just got married. There was no way I was going to uproot and go up to Radlett, er, where I didn't really want to live, and, er, the housing costs were too expensive for me. So, I, I and we were, were quite happy where we were, so I, I said to, er, the personnel people at EMI, “can I have a transfer, so I can perhaps go back to EMI Electronics”, because at that time I didn't know there was a problem. When I tried to, to sort something out, I rang some of my old friends there. They seemed to be sort of, well some of them, Brian Stone was keen, and, er, another chap Phil Beauchamp wasn't, um, and he seemed to be a bit - because I actually saw him in the street, a bit later than that - and he, he was rather, um, he actually knew, and we discussed the security business, and he was upset because he, he liked me and, er, I think it was a bit of a shock to him when I'd been moved out. So, um, anyway, I was looking for this job outside, er, from the EMI Medical part at Frimley, and, er, I went for a job at, er, EMI Electronics at Woking, and got quite a good interview, and then the personnel people told me I couldn't apply for it. So, I thought, there's something funny going on here, and that's when I, I found out, that one of my bosses then explained it to me, and, er, I was a bit shocked at the time and, er, decided I'd have to take it further. That's why I applied for the Positive Vetting.

MacLeod: I suggest that Victor Oshchenko put you up to it, to find out why it was ...

Smith: Nobody put me up to that. I did it on my own behalf, because I was interested in my career, and for no other reason than that.

Smith: Nobody in, in my life has ever pushed me to do anything career wise. I've done it myself.

MacLeod: Well, they were obviously disappointed too, that you had lost your security clearance, um. But when you went into the Medical Section, EMI Medical, I mean, albeit that the information was unclassified, you still continued to pass them information. Rubbish it might have been, but, um, you still passed it.

Smith: I've, I've never been passing information, as you put it, so how could I possibly comment on that.

MacLeod: So you're denying that you ever passed any unclassified information from ...

Smith: I didn't pass any information, classified or unclassified. As I reiterate, from what we said before, I would like to see the evidence, so that I can actually discuss it with you in detail, but you won't seem to put that on the table.

MacLeod: So, you were made redundant by Thorn EMI in September '85. In fact, you were probably quite fortunate to have secured employment in such a short space of time. You went to work for GEC.

Smith: No I didn't go straight there. I worked for a company called Evershed and Vignoles.

Smith: Er, it was a Quality Assurance job, and they have some, er, I can't remember now, because, … motors, I think it was, one of the things they made, maybe tachometers, things like that. And, um, I think they, they, they made panel meters for the Navy, um, things that go on the front of tube trains to show the destination, that sort of thing. It's a bit of a hotch-potch of a company, er. I didn't stay there long, because ...

MacLeod: Well I was going to ask you. I mean, you, you could only have been there a few weeks, because …?

Smith: Well, I'd, I'd already been applying for a number of jobs, and, er, GEC, er, didn't offer me a position at the time, and, um, so I went to Evershed and Vignoles. I'd been there about 3 or 4 weeks, and this one came up offering a lot more money and better job prospects. So I thought, well, it would be stupid not to take it.

MacLeod: So, they restored part of your, um, rather restored your security clearance to confidential.

Smith: Yes. I don't think it was as high, but I, I didn't, I mean, I didn't really see any proper, um, classified documents at, er, GEC. It wasn't part of my job.

MacLeod: So, you've been redundant from, or rather you were made redundant by GEC Hirst, in July of this year.

MacLeod: When did they indicate to you that you were likely to be made redundant?

Beels: Sir. We're coming towards the end of this tape. You indicated earlier that you may wish to take refreshments at the end of this tape.

Beels: In which case, I'll bring the interview to an end. I'm concluding this interview. Is there anything else you wish to add or clarify?

Beels: At the end of this interview I will be asking you to sign the seal on the master tapes. Will you do so?

Beels: I have a form 987, explaining your rights of access to the tape, which again, I will give you. The time is 3:36 pm, and I'm switching off the machine.

INTERVIEW 5 ~ TAPE 8

Beels: This interview is being tape-recorded. I am Detective Sergeant Stephen Beels, New Scotland Yard, Special Branch. The other officer present is …

MacLeod: Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod, from Special Branch at New Scotland Yard.

Jefferies: My name is Richard Jefferies, Duty Solicitor from Tuckers Solicitors.

Beels: We are in Interview Room number 2, at Paddington Green Police Station. At the end of this interview, I will give you a form explaining your rights of access to a copy of the tape. The date is the 9th August, and the time is 4:15 pm. I must caution you, Mr Smith, you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be given in evidence. Do you understand?

Beels: You are entitled to free legal advice, and your solicitor is present. Is that correct?

MacLeod: Mr Smith, did you ever discuss with your wife your past connections with the Communist Party?

MacLeod: Was she surprised to learn of your political views, or was she …?

Smith: She was surprised, because it came up at the time when I had left EMI Medical, and as we'd previously mentioned on the last tape, I had problems in securing a job, at either EMI Electronics or other companies requiring security clearance. And I told her that, the day that it was told to me, what had happened, and she was rather upset, when I told her. I explained to her that it wasn't the way I felt now, it had been something that had happened in the past, a long time ago, and no way I hoped would affect our relationship, and I think the fact we've stayed together all these years, is proof that it hasn't.

MacLeod: I mean, I don't underestimate that this has been a fairly traumatic experience for you and for your wife. I mean, she now understands fully the reason why you're both detained here at the police station. How do you think this is going to affect her, and your future relationship?

Smith: Well, I think it might affect her, because I see my wife as somebody who needs protection, who's rather a sensitive person, and that's the reason why, when I was first brought here, my first consideration was that she shouldn't know, because I didn't want her to be upset.

MacLeod: So, when you received the phone call yesterday morning, from a man called George, did she make any comment about it?

MacLeod: Did she sound surprised because of the heavily, heavily accented voice?

Smith: No, no she didn't, I don't think she was surprised. It was more, um, “he sounds foreign” or something. She didn't really sound surprised.

MacLeod: So, I mean, have you been used to receiving telephone calls from foreign accented men?

Smith: Yes, quite often. We have an Indian friend, we have a number of Spanish friends, um, it's not unusual, no.

MacLeod: When you joined the Communist Party in 1971, as I understand it, you were a member of the King's Heath branch?

Smith: No, I'm not denying it, I just don't know where, which, where we're talking about. Is it in London?

Smith: King's Heath? I don't know the name of that. I don't know that place.

Smith: Can I make, just, er, clarify it, I'm not being difficult here. I just do not know the name.

MacLeod: Right, Ok. So if I put it this way then. Were you an active member in the Surrey District of the Communist Party.

Smith: No, I, I couldn't say I was an active member. I was a member, but it was more that I would just go along to functions, and be one of the herd. I wasn't active in actually organising anything myself.

MacLeod: But in addition to the Party itself, you were also involved with the Young Communist League.

Smith: I don't think it actually went as far as '76. It was the end of '75 maybe, autumn '75 I'd say.

Smith: As I remember, I only played a very modest role after my trip to the Soviet Union, and it must have been about October or November, I stopped attending meetings. I can't be absolutely sure, it was a long time ago.

MacLeod: So, it's incorrect then to say that, on 30th November or thereabouts, 1975, it's incorrect to say that you were elected to the Surrey District committee of the YCL?

Smith: That may have been true. It may have just been that I'd been elected, but wasn't active. I really can't remember, and that's the honest truth. I really can't remember. All I know is, it was about that period when I stopped becoming active. All I did was just attend a few meetings, or a few functions, and it gradually got less. The only thing that kept me there, I think, was a few acquaintances I'd made, who I used to go and drink with.

MacLeod: But you did attend conferences, or a conference in October, the YCL. The YCL branches conference at South Bank Polytechnic. Did you attend that conference?

Smith: I attended one in, I think it was the Spring of '75, which would have been the National Congress conference. I don't remember attending anything in October, unless you can give me more information?

MacLeod: But, well, right, that may not be terribly accurate. But, I mean, in …

MacLeod: In November '75, it's still true to say that you were elected to the Surrey District committee.

Smith: If you're aware of the politics of those sort of people, who joined the YCL and Communist Party, very often they elect people who are no longer members, who they just keep cards for, to show membership, which help to boost the membership. I mean, it's a well known fact. Now maybe I, my name was put forward and I was elected, but I don't remember attending any meetings after that date.

Smith: September? I don't believe so, no, the meetings were held at another member's flat in Teddington. I think all the meetings were held there. No, I, we did have some meetings in my flat, that's true, but they weren't as late as September. I think by that time I'd already stopped that much interest.

MacLeod: So, are you saying it was, this change of heart came about as the result of your trip to the Soviet Union?

Smith: Mainly, yes. I mean, I wouldn't say it was totally. I was disillusioned with the way that the organisation was run. I joined it on the basis that it was a refreshing sort of approach to life, and to meet some more people, because I didn't know many people in the area where I lived. I had the possibility of, perhaps, making a few girlfriends, but it was no more than a pastime. It wasn't, I wasn't actually doing anybody any harm, I felt.

MacLeod: I'm not suggesting for one minute that there was any harm associated with membership, or even affiliation to, any of these organisations.

Smith: Yes, I was politically left wing. I wouldn't like to say I was an out and out lefty, I took it all rather philosophically.

Beels: You say you were a communist? At that time, would you'd have described yourself?

Smith: I was embarrassed to say I was a communist. I mean, I used to feel it was interesting to think of socialist ways of organising production, but it was all based on what I'd read. I mean, on what people told me. I mean, it's only seeing it for yourself, when you go and visit a country like the Soviet Union, it makes you realise how it really comes out in practice.

MacLeod: Who were the main sort of the people that you were associated with, you know, within your little group in the CP in those days, and the YCL. Who were your main sort of ...?

Smith: I can tell you, because I'm sure they're well known. There was a man called Colin Jones, he was a secretary, I think, of the Young Communist League. A chap called Fred Rooks, he was involved in our Kingston Branch for a time, and then, I think, he moved to South London. There was a chap called Phil Cutler, who actually lived in my flat for a while.

Smith: I think '74, we lived in one flat, one house, and then we moved, it would have been the end of '74, to St Albans Road. And he left within, I don't know, weeks of us getting there. He found some other house that he was going to rent, which turned out to be a purchase eventually. He was quite happy to move out and leave us sharing the rent, which we weren't very happy with. But there were other people I knew, a chap called Bob Ede. They were all well known, they were people who were sitting on the Surrey District Committee of the YCL.

MacLeod: I mean, I keep harping back to this point, about you saying, having severed links on your return to this country, having been to ...

Smith: I didn't say I'd severed links, it was over a period of weeks, or a couple of months, it wasn't immediate. It still wasn't, I mean, actually into '76 I was still seeing a few people I knew in pubs, and ...

Smith: No, I was looking at them with a different light. I mean, there was a man, who I am sure is well known, called Ken White. He was actually on the District Committee of the Communist Party of Surrey. Quite influential in some ways, but not very active I would have said, he was more of an armchair man. But we had common interests in music, and the arts, and hi-fi, and we discussed a few things. I used to see him in the pub a couple of times a month, I suppose, and I think he was the last person I actually kept in contact with, until, actually after I'd joined EMI Electronics, but by that time I wasn't really, we weren't really talking the same language any more. I mean, it was increasingly the people I'd known, still on this very hard line sort of “socialism's best”, and I couldn't really see myself in that circle any more. And it got to the point where I just, it was I said, drifting apart, and it wasn't what you'd said - severed - it was over a good 2 to 3 months in the initial period, and then, as I said, I kept these few contacts until well into '76. But it was no longer an active participation in politics, it was more a social chat with the lads in the pub. There was another chap called Dave Gollop, who is well known in Kingston as being an active, I think, IRA fanatic, and he used to also come to this pub very occasionally, but I think he'd split up with his wife, he drifted away. Those were the people, who locally seemed to be people I knew. There were a few others, but I can't remember all their names, to be honest.

MacLeod: So, as a result of this visit to the Soviet Union, you returned to this country with a totally fresh, and new sort of attitude towards communism?

Smith: Well, let's not say such, I mean, it was a dawning of something I'd suspected for a long time.

MacLeod: So you visited the Soviet Union around, sort of, August did we say, the summer of '75, or there abouts?

Smith: I think it might have been either the first 2 weeks, or the middle 2 weeks, in August. It was something about that time. It was shortly after Shostakovich died, because I had a few records by him, and I remember it being on TV, I think, the week before we went. That's how I remember it.

Smith: As I say, this was a dawning of what I'd realised. The mistake I'd made in going for this, as being a thing I should be involved in over a period of time, because there were things on the TV, and things in the newspapers, about what was going on in the Soviet Union - the treatment of Jews - and there was just so much of it around I tended to think, well, maybe this is propaganda, but having actually been to the Soviet Union, and seeing what it really is like - the militaristic sort of lifestyle, you see soldiers up and down the streets all the time.

Smith: It wasn't the sort of culture, I felt, was what I wanted to see in Britain.

MacLeod: Would you describe yourself as having been an active member of the Communist Party?

Smith: I wouldn't say, not as active as some of the people there. I was one of the herd, I just, I used to go along to the meetings.

Smith: I was the branch secretary of the Kingston Branch. It was about 5 or 6 members there. It was trivial really, I mean, we didn't do anything, we just talked.

Smith: I was on the District Committee as a, one of the members. You know, I wasn't, I didn't hold any formal position like the Chairman, or anything like that. I was just one of the number. And that was just a formality, because I was Secretary of the Kingston Branch, that was purely what it was all about. I'd like to say, that it did teach me a hell of a lot about committee work, and the sort of things that I found useful in later life.

I wouldn't knock it for that. What I would knock it for is that it's ideologically on the wrong foot.

MacLeod: Right, Ok. Were you a delegate at the, a delegate of the Chessington Branch at the Surrey District Congress in '72?

Smith: I can't remember. I do remember going to something like that, but I can't remember the dates or where it was.

Smith: In the Communist Party, I played a very small role in the Communist Party.

MacLeod: Or did the YCL have a Congress, or was it something separate from the Communist Party?

Smith: February 1975. Well, I think they used to hold them every couple of years. You know, I would like to, I seriously would like to answer your question, but it's so long ago. I mean, if you're thinking back 17/18 years. I mean, the mind is not there anymore. I can't …

MacLeod: Right. I mean, you can remember the occasion having visited the Soviet Union. That being a sort of …

MacLeod: Indeed, and what you are saying is, you came back to this country, and you became disillusioned with communism.

And you, sort of, drifted apart from them. But we know that, in November 1975, you were not only elected to the Surrey District Committee of the Young Communist League, but you were also a member of the Industrial Sub-Committee.

Smith: If you can imagine what that might mean. I mean, I knew there was a committee like that, that I had been a member of at some time, and it was a fiasco. I mean, people used to talk about what we are going to do in industry, and organising union groups, and, I mean, it was just a farce. But I could see the sort of situation it was going on with.

Smith: Maybe I was elected to it, but I didn't play a role in it. Maybe I attended a meeting.

MacLeod: It is not consistent with what you are saying. You're telling me that you severed your links, or rather you drifted apart from the Communist Party in '75, and yet as a matter of record ...

Smith: No, no, I was trying to describe to you, I was drifting away from them, but the fact I might have still gone to a few meetings was just the way it was, I mean …

Smith: I was reinforcing what I was seeing in the Soviet Union, with what I was seeing here. I mean, actually putting it to people about what life was like over there.

Smith: Not very well. I met him a few times. He'd been in a pub when I, I'd been there a few times. He had been on a trip up to Scarborough, we had a conference up there in, it must have been '73.

Smith: He was on that bus. I remember him cracking a few jokes, or something like that. I don't …

Smith: He was a very persuasive man. I wouldn't say I shared them. I admired the man's ...

Smith: In the early days I was, yes, but that was because that was the way the Surrey District organised itself, and it didn't have much else to claim to fame, because Surrey's rather a stockbroker sort of area. So, by being very pro-Soviet, which was abhorred by everybody else in, I think, the YCL and the Communist Party, it was an outcast virtually. It was an interesting, to actually be in that part of the world, and see what it was like, but it was a joke. I used to go sometimes to deliver leaflets for, when they had elections, I think, Sid French stood for at least one election, I remember, and I delivered some leaflets. I remember reading it, and it was all things about, well, you know, the price of bus tickets hadn't changed for 50 years in the Soviet Union, this sort of crap, you know, and I really couldn't see it as being relevant to the people in that area, you know. They are not interested in what's going on in another country, I mean, they are interested in what's happening on their own doorstep. And that's the way I was tending to feel, that this is all about something that's got nothing to do with us.

MacLeod: When you drifted away from the YCL, what sort of explanation did you give to your former sort of associates, or comrades, for actually leaving the YCL?

Smith: If I gave them any explanation, I don't think I needed to, but I might have said to people I was a bit cheesed off with it all, a waste of time. I don't know if I discussed it in any depth with anybody. In fact, I would have felt a bit embarrassed about it, I think, to, because they would have said, “Oh, you've got to come and be one of the lads”, you know, “You've got to support us”.

It's a very self perpetuating organisation, I think, very inward looking, very incestuous, and I felt it was a relief to be out of it. I felt much more freedom, to get on with more interesting pursuits.

Beels: At the time you dropped these pursuits, as you describe them, would that have coincided with the time you were considering, or applying to join, EMI Electronics? Would it be around that time?

Smith: It was after, I think. I mean, it wasn't until I saw this advert that I applied, and that was, must have been June, I think, in 1976. Some time afterwards.

MacLeod: So it was after you joined EMI, that you drifted away from the YCL. Is that what you are saying?

Smith: Well I don't think so, I am sure I handed my card back, posted it, I can't remember what I did. I'd certainly given it back because I wanted to make it clear that I had left.

MacLeod: I find it interesting that you left the YCL, you left the YCL, the month before you started at EMI.

Smith: That is not true. It was no later than the turn of the year. I, I can't remember the month, but it wasn't that late, because I just know it wasn't. I can't give you a definite date, because I can't remember. But it wasn't that close, I would have remembered it being that close, to joining EMI, I'm sure.

MacLeod: I put it to you, the reason you left the YCL, and the reason that you sort of severed any links with your trade union colleagues ...

MacLeod: No, we'll come back to that in a minute, but you were quite active in the trade union were you not?

MacLeod: Oh sorry, I beg your pardon. Right. Ok. So you disassociated yourself from the YCL, you sort of took little to do with trade union affairs. All about the time that you joined EMI?

Smith: No, it's not true. I did, in the union I was playing quite an active role, almost up to the time I joined EMI Electronics.

Smith: Probably more so. I, some of it seemed more relevant to life. But not, not so much that I was infatuated with it. I mean, it wasn't, … if you sit in a smelly room, with people smoking and sweaty armpits, I mean, it's not really the sort of environment I wanted to be in, um, and, as I say, there was a very good point about it all, which I realised while it was happening, afterwards, was it gave me a very good insight into committee work, how to chair meetings, how to write minutes, all those sort of things, were very interesting to me. Which I hadn't really experienced anywhere before. And I think that was of great assistance to me, it helped me to understand people and how people work, and much more came out of it, I think, than what I lost. I gained a lot of insight into things, which I probably wouldn't have had otherwise. Maybe, if I had joined the Young Conservatives, or Young Liberals, I might have got the same thing, but I think the way they organised things in the YCL was quite dogmatic, and that gave me a good insight into that way of dealing with a ...

MacLeod: So you were, if I can just then talk about the trade union very, very briefly. I mean, you were a member, presumably, of the AUEW?

Smith: It might have been the overall union I was with, but I was in the Technical & Supervisory Section, and I didn't really consider myself one of the, you know, the sort of craftsman engineers who comprised the rest of it.

Smith: I was for a time. I wasn't very happy with that, because I don't think I particularly found the people all that interesting. And there was a chap called Dick Woolf. Dick Woolf, I think his name was, Richard Woolf, if you know the name. He was the organiser, the, what they call District Organiser of the, how would you call it, the District Council I think it was called. And he was quite a pleasant sort of man, but he was, he was a member of the Communist Party, I found out. And he used to organise something in his flat, once every month or two, and I think I attended twice on that, but that was the only political involvement I had, that you could have said was strictly as a sort of group within the group.

MacLeod: And when was that, when was that up to. What period are we talking about?

Smith: It could have been '74 or '75. I can't be, it didn't really stand out in my mind. I remember it, but I can't really remember …

MacLeod: Did you have a committee position within the union, um, or within any of the sub-groups?

Smith: I was a chairman of the - only for a short time, it wasn't very long – but I was the Chairman of the Kingston branch of TASS.

Beels: Ok. At this stage I am going to switch off the machine in order to change the tapes. The time by my watch is 4:43 pm.

INTERVIEW 5 ~ TAPE 9

Beels: We are continuing the interview of Mr Michael Smith. The time is 4:45 pm. I must remind you, Mr Smith, that you are still under caution, and you still do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but what you do say may be given in evidence. Do you understand that?

MacLeod: Mr Smith, I'm just finally trying to wind up, on this particular point, concerning your political involvement, not only in the YCL, but also in the trade union. You, you were associated, in fact involved, which you admit, with the trade union for a while. You've told me earlier on, that you gave up all sort of links with the YCL, and took little part in the trade union activities, and yet, in 1975, in November 1975, you were the Secretary of the Political Sub-Committee of the AUEW.

Smith: No, no, I think that's a misconception anyway. What it was, I think, it was called Political and Educational Sub-Committee, and it was mainly, er, to deal with things concerning outside bodies, like the Labour Party, and it wasn't political in the sense that it was actively promoting communist infiltration into the union, or anything like that, it was, it was just dealing with outside bodies. I took the minutes - they were deadly boring again - I took the minutes and published them, so I suppose my name appeared on them, but the, the thing that I achieved, I thought, which I was quite proud of, was to organise a course, a seminar. I can't remember what they called them now, but there was, there was, once a year they organise something, a sort of training session, or, um, you, you get my drift? I can't quite remember what they called it. It was a sort of, um, an educational meeting for people in the area, and I organised something in the Star & Garter Hotel in Richmond, which was said to be the most successful they'd ever had, and I felt quite proud of that. That was the last thing I did, and because it was, it did more or less happened at the time I joined EMI Electronics, and as I would have had to have changed my branch anyway, I used that as an excuse to just drop out of it, because, I thought at that time, I really wanted to be free of all these sort of other interests, and it wasn't, it wasn't what I wanted to do any more. It was a convenient point to leave on a high point, like, um, Daley Thompson should have done.

MacLeod: So, right. During those, um, sort of day, or those years that you were involved with the trade union, I mean, it was quite a lively time politically. There was a lot going on, there was Britain's membership, or applied membership, of the EEC. Were you part of the campaign, um, within the Kingston Branch of your union, um, that was set up, um, to oppose British membership of the EEC?

Smith: I didn't know there was such a body. I was aware there was something going on at the time, and I think some leaflets were produced, and I think a couple of public meetings, but I don't remember what. I remember delivering some leaflets, that's, I do remember that.

MacLeod: Do you remember, do you remember attending one such meeting, in a bar in Kingston?

MacLeod: A meeting, a trade union meeting, which had been called to, to discuss British membership of the EEC.

Smith: I don't remember that sort. There was a public meeting, I remember, which was in the Surbiton Assembly Rooms, which I wasn't, I didn't do anything, I just sat and listened, and er, there were a couple of speakers.

Smith: I don't remember that. A meeting in a pub. I'm sorry, if you can give me the name of pub.

Smith: No, you, remember, I'm going back a long time now. I'm, I'm really trying to answer your questions. If you can give me the name of the pub, I might be able to connect?

MacLeod: I don't think the name of the pub is particularly material, but what is important is that it was about that time, and I would suggest at that meeting, that you first were introduced to some Russian people.

Smith: No. I'm, not, I'm seriously trying to ... I don't remember a meeting in a pub, or a bar, you say? About, um, …That doesn't connect. A bar. A bar is like a wine bar, isn't it?

MacLeod: There was, there was a meeting at a public house in Kingston, which you attended, which had been organised by the trade union to discuss Britain's membership of the EEC. At that meeting you were introduced to a Russian. Am I right, or am I wrong?

Smith: I, I, I really want to answer this question, but I can't remember this, this particular occasion. I can't remember the pub. If, if you can give me the pub name, perhaps?

MacLeod: If you can't remember the name of the man who ran you for a number of years, Victor Oshchenko, I can't see that the name of the pub is going to be very material.

Smith: No, I think we've, we've missed the point here. Look, I, I want to answer a question about a meeting in a pub. Now, I, I do want to answer this question. I want to, to give you some facts if I can, but I can't think of the name of the pub.

MacLeod: You would remember making, making an acquaintance of some Russian delegates.

Smith: Look, I'll, I'll tell you where I did meet a Russian, if you want, if we're getting down to brass tacks, right? There was a meeting, and it was in the Surbiton Assembly Rooms. It wasn't this public meeting to do with the, um, Common Market thing. It was a, sort of social event, at which I remember there being a lot of trade union people there. Andy Wilson was there, I remember, and some people from either my TASS branch. It was a, sort of, general, for the area. I don't remember what the occasion was, but I remember I picked up a girl there, that's why I remember it. There, there was a Russian guy there, who I think was with Andy Wilson, and, er, er, I don't know if he introduced me, or, but I was rather shy, and I didn't, I didn't say anything to him. I just might have nodded at him. But I remember there being a Russian there. I mean, er, now who that Russian was, I don't know. I remember him being, he had receding hair I think, that's all I can remember about him. But I don't know who he was, or what connection he had, why he was there. But that wasn't to do with the Common Market, I know that.

Smith: It, it was something to do, there was a man there from Vietnam, and if that can connect perhaps ….

Smith: Well the Russian. The Russian. That's the Russian I met, or was introduced to, or …?

Smith: I don't know. I, I really don't know. I, he was introduced, well, I don't know if he was introduced to me, but he was there in this group, and it's, like, people were nodding at him, and saying hello, you know. It wasn't, there was no discussion going on. So I, I, I don't know the guy's name. Well, if I, if they said his name, I certainly wouldn't have remembered it. But that, that definitely, he, he, was a Russian. Yes, I knew it.

MacLeod: And did you meet any other Russians after that time, or around that time?

Smith: One, one, one of these wine and cheese sort of things, in, er, it was North of the river, god knows where. It was, it was, a, a polytechnic building of some sort. I, I really don't know, but there was, er, it was I think a YCL social thing, and there were some Russian women and men, with their children. They were sitting in a group, like. I'd, I'd, I'd like to tell you, but, but I really don't know what, what it was now. I mean, it's so long ago. I actually remember it, because I remember these, these big fat Russian women and their children sitting in this corner, but they weren't talking to anybody else, and likewise with the English people.

Smith: I think it was the YCL, and it was in, it was somewhere North of the river in Central London, and it might have been a London University building, or something like that, but ...

Smith: I didn't speak to any of them. I don't think they spoke English, actually. They looked, er, that's why I think they were sitting on their own.

Smith: Well, obviously, I talked to, er, some Russians in, er, on this trip, when I went to the Soviet Union. I mean, the guide was one of them.

MacLeod: We'll come back to the Soviet Union trip, just in a minute. If we can just concentrate on that period, when you first met some Russian people over here, in this country. Firstly, at that function you described in Surrey, and, and this other function that was run by the YCL. Was that around the same time?

Smith: I, I do remember Well, it would have been, I can't be exact, because I, I, it would have been '73 to '74, something about that time, I think.

Smith: I did, there was another Russian I met, who was somebody who defected, or married an Englishman, that was what it was. I did, for about 2 terms, I did a course in First Year Russian in the local Kingston Adult Education Centre. But it wasn't very successful, so I dropped out after, after about half the year. But there was a Russian woman, who married an English businessman, I think he was. Came over to this country, and, er, she came on the last, one of the last days I was, it was before Christmas, she came the day before, the week before Christmas, and talked a little bit about what her life had been like there. And, um, then she cooked some things. We went round to somebody's house in, er, it was in Kingston. I can't remember the name of the road, Elm Road, I think it was. A house in Elm Road that, that this woman lived in. We, er, we went there, had a few drinks, and this, this Russian lady had made some sweets and things to eat. I, I might have talked to her casually about things, but it wasn't, she certainly wasn't a political person, and I, I wouldn't think she...

Smith: Because she, she was a friend of the woman who was running the course, it was a First Year Russian course.

Smith: I had some sort of aspirations, I was going to learn another language, because I've never been very good at languages, and, er, the, er, friend I was sharing the flat with, er, wanted to do French. I said, “well, I'm, I'm going to do Russian”. It wasn't really because of the Russian interest at all, it was more, because I thought, it was a challenge.

MacLeod: So, it was the woman who was running the course, was it Kingston Poly, did you say?

Smith: It was an Adult Education Centre. It was, um, the school that's now gone, um …

Smith: No. I, I, I think I left about half way through the second term. I, I, I think because there was a lot of reading up and studying to do, to try and understand the words and the vocabulary. I just couldn't ...

Smith: I speak nothing, really. I, I know a little bit of Spanish, because we have a Spanish ...

Smith: Well, well I think it was connected with the fact, I thought, well maybe I'll go there someday for a holiday.

MacLeod: But, I mean, why, if you're going to take up a foreign language, and given the infrequency that one might expect to, to have visits to the Soviet Union ...?

Smith: I remember now, why I chose Russian. Um, going back even further, it must have been in 1969, the end of '69, there was a friend of mine who I, I was sharing, um, a, a room with in Walton-on-Thames, by the name was Vuk Nenadovic.

Smith: Now he, er, I think lives in this country now. But he was really, I suppose, the person responsible for me becoming interested in left-wing politics, and, um, it was just because he was quite a persuasive sort of chap, you know, he was rather, um, …

Smith: He was Yugoslav. He used to ring the praises of Yugoslavia before it's downfall.

Smith: And I, I didn't particularly, um, like what he had to say, but he did make me think about politics. I think that's probably why I got involved. But he wanted to learn Russian, while we were sharing this flat, this house, this room in, this room in this house. Well, I thought, well, you know “if he's going to learn it, perhaps I'll learn it”, and, and we photocopied the Linguaphone book - he got it from the local library - and I suppose I went through about 2 or 3 of the lessons, but I never really got to grips with it. But when I saw this, this local course in Russian, I thought, well, perhaps, “I'll have another crack at it”. Because it was, it was the first language I'd tried to learn, so I think that was why it was naturally the one I picked. I thought, “I know a little bit of it, I know the alphabet, and I know a few words”, but ...

MacLeod: I just find it curious, that you should wish to take up a language as difficult as Russian. As I said earlier, it's not the kind of place that people go on their summer holidays?

MacLeod: So why take Russian, as in preference to Spanish. I mean, you are quite a, you're keen on flamenco dancing?

Smith: Well, that wasn't the case when I, er, in this time. I mean, at that time, I, I didn't really have a flamenco interest.

Smith: My wife and I did a year's course in Spanish. You know, in the mid '80s, I think. I don't remember, '84, something like that.

MacLeod: So, in case I'm missing the point here, if you can just make clear to me why it was, it was you chose to learn Russian, at that particular time. You shared a flat with this man, this Yugoslav?

MacLeod: Yeah, um, and it was as a result of your, sort of, association with him, yeah?

MacLeod: Yeah, that you became interested in communism. He, he, was he the man …?

Smith: Well, I wouldn't put it as strongly as that. He made me think a little bit about things. I mean, no country is ideal, and I don't, don't think anybody would be so naive to say that life in Britain is perfect. And, er, I think he had a lot of good points he made about things, anomalies in this country, and, er, perhaps it just made me think a little bit, and I thought, er, maybe, er, I'd always been sold the line that “Britain's best” and “British made products are best”, and all that sort of thing. I think he knocked my faith in Britain a little bit, at that time, and, er, he put the line, well, “in Yugoslavia we do things differently, and we've got cheap buses, and all this sort of thing”. But he made me think a bit, about the organisation of things, and, er, what the priorities might be, you know, jobs and housing, that sort of thing.

Smith: Well, I don't think so, no. I think he might have been in Yugoslavia, but I think his father was in UNESCO, or something like that, it was part of the United Nations, and he had worked for a while as an engineer - not UNESCO - something to do with engineering, because he was working on the pyramids projects in Egypt, and had quite a good job, I think. I can't really say much more about him than that, because I didn't, I didn't know him that well.

MacLeod: But suffice it to say, I mean, he was the one that sort, um, of aroused your interest in politics.

Smith: I think that's true to say. I, I don't believe, um, I can go back any further, and say there was anything else that would have triggered it off.

MacLeod: I mean, you are a very intelligent man. You're a, I would say quite a strong willed man, um, how come you allowed somebody like this to persuade you, um, to the virtues of communism?

Smith: Well, you know, I don't think it was just, it's not, what you say, communism in, er, in a, you know, global sort of sense. It was a, a few arguments that he used, that I found difficult to answer. And I think when you can't answer something you look for reasons or ways of resolving it, and I, at that time. It's difficult, I can't put any one thing on, er, down, and say that was what caused this, that, and the other to happen. It was a sequence of events, and this was probably the thing that sparked it off.

MacLeod: Right. How long did that association with this man continue. How long did you know him?

Smith: I, I, he was on my course at university, so I knew him for about 4 years in all, but we, we only shared this room for about 6 months. Maybe less, because, I think, we, we took the flat, this room, in about October or November. I can't be more specific, October, November, that time. It was late autumn, and he moved out about May, because he lost his job.

MacLeod: Would you describe this man as an ardent communism, or a committed communism, er, a committed communist?

Smith: Well, I, I found it difficult to understand him, because, um, he used to say, because there had been a thing in Yugoslavia about the threat from the Soviet Union, and, er, he was rather, er, I think his politics were rather mixed, you know. He, he, on the one hand he was saying, very much, that Tito was the great god, and there was, er, a big thing about being Yugoslav, you know, and, and on the other hand he was saying, oh... Oh Cuba was his main ticket, I think. I mean, he used to rave about Che Guevara, and revolution in the jungle. So, I, I think, it was very much, er, a, a romantic vision with him.

MacLeod: So he was a Yugoslav, who, um, by the sounds of it, he was, um, a supporter of the Yugoslav form of communism.

Smith: I think that must have been what it was based on. I, I never really got to the root of it, I must admit.

MacLeod: So, by definition, one wouldn't expect him to be terribly aligned to the, to the sort of Russian style of communism. Why should he learn the language?

Smith: He used, he used, he used to talk about it, um, in more global terms, like, you know, we're all part of this great movement, and, um, I, I don't think he, he said it was all bad, he just said they, they do some funny things there, you know, it's a bit of a strange, er, lifestyle.

MacLeod: Well, I would suggest, that probably around that time, you were probably committed to the communist ideology in any event, and all you found in this Yugoslav friend was, if you like, a fellow traveller who agreed with your views?

MacLeod: Not that he persuaded you, but you were already 9/10ths of the way there yourself.

Smith: No, no. Honestly, I was, I think, I was the one who was perhaps looking for something. He seemed, he seemed quite firm about what he believed in. I mean, he might have been a bit confused as to exactly where he came down, but in arguments he was quite a convincing talker.

MacLeod: So, you reckon then, that that was the point of your, sort of, baptism into the, er, communist …?

Smith: Well, what I'm trying to say, it wasn't, it wasn't just him. I think it was, it was a combination of things at that time. When you look back, and you think, as you were just saying, quite rightly, that there was a lot of turmoil in the early '70s, and it, it coincided with the time when I was perhaps looking for something, er, that was an alternative to what existed. Ok, I look back, and I say that that was misconceived at the time, but I, I can't say I would have done it any differently if I lived it again. It was, it was just the way it was. I mean, I did all sorts of stupid things.

Smith: I saw him, I, I think it was '73. After we left university, we all went off and did different things. He was working for a company, I can't, I can't be sure what the company name was. It might have been British Aerospace. He was working for this company, and, er, I think he wrote me a letter, or rang me up. He contacted me in someway, and said “look, we're getting a, a few of our friends from class, are getting them back together”. We met in a, a restaurant, I think, it was, it was an Indian restaurant in Rathbone Place, off Oxford Street, and I think we just wandered around the West End for a short time and then we went our own ways, and there was nothing, er, sinister. He, he, I think, he actually, he, he changed his mind quite a lot after, er, I knew him at that time.

MacLeod: Can we go back and talk about this Russian woman, who ran the, the Russian language courses.

Smith: No, no. Sorry, that's, that's wrong. The woman who ran the course was, in fact, um, I think she was Norwegian, or Swedish. Er, god, what was her name?

Smith: She was certainly non-Russian, but yeah, she had, she had been on a course, on a course in Russia, to learn Russian from native speakers.

Smith: No, no. It was never discussed. I mean, it was all very much with learning Russian, because it was a good language to learn.

MacLeod: So, wouldn't it be true to say, that the, um, communism, um, might have held some sort of attraction, some kind of appeal for you in those days?

MacLeod: To the extent that you were prepared to learn the language of the country?

Smith: No, no. As I say, I don't think that was the reason I was learning it. I'm trying to be very, um, er, I wish I could come … I'm a bit tired, I can't think of the words. I'd, I'd like to be a bit more eloquent, in the way I'm presenting this, but the, the, the reason I was, I think I was interested in Russian as the sound of the language mainly. I mean, I'm very much an aural person, I like the sound of things, music, and there's a certain beauty of the sound of Russian, which I think attracted me, like French does to some people, and it could be probably that I'm, I'm more keen, I think, on the, on that side of it.

Smith: I'm a very keen fan of Doctor Zhivago. The film, and that sort of vision of, of Russia as being the great, sort of country, and the snow. That's what appealed to me, more than the politics.

Smith: Yes, more, more than the politics. For, for learning Russian, that's what we're talking about.

MacLeod: But communism, as an ideal, must have had, um, some appeal to you, for you to become involved with the, um, YCL?

Smith: Yes, it had an appeal, but I think it was more of a thought out, um, pattern of thinking. It was, it was much more, less romantic, more machine like, more mathematical, in saying this is the way we should organise things, and it was all very much, tying every nut and bolt down, to say life's got to be all, all sewn up, you know. Maybe at that time I felt I wanted to see a concrete reason why everything was there, but, you know, I realise life's not like that, it's much more fluid, and …

MacLeod: So can we talk about, we have spoken about the, the Russians you have met. Can we just go back over that again. Did you meet any other Russians during the time that you were involved with the trade unions, or the YCL?

Smith: Well, there weren't many around. I mean, I don't remember. I think though, other people met more Russians, because I remember people saying about it. Um, I heard a story, I don't know if it's true, from my friend Ken White, my previous friend Ken White, when we were talking in the pub one day. He said, “do you know Sid French has been over to somewhere in Russia, he got on a plane, and he was sort of spirited out of the country, and went on a helicopter ride somewhere into, somewhere in Southern Russia. People there were talking to him about the Communist Party in this country, and, um, how it can be organised better”. And it was, it was like, infiltration of Russian ideas through Sid French, and I, I, that seriously made me think, “what's going on here”, you know. It didn't sound like the organisation I thought I'd joined.

Smith: Well, I'm shocked, because I, I didn't think that that sort of thing went on. I, I thought the British, er, Communist Party was a self contained unit.

Smith: Well, well you know, in those days, perhaps, I was a bit naive. I mean, I don't, people don't grow up in, in 5 seconds. You know, it takes a while for these things to happen.

MacLeod: You were an intelligent man, a university graduate, you're not talking about some wet behind the ears youth.

MacLeod: I don't, I'm not trying to, to say anything to alleviate myself, as a, you know, I did stupid things or whatever. When, when that time was, when I was in that, that period, I, I might have been intelligent, I might have had a lot of qualifications and training, but I lacked experience, and I think that's what I was looking for.

Beels: Well, the tape is coming to an end, so I'm going to switch the machine off, at 5:13 pm.

INTERVIEW 5 ~ TAPE 10

Beels: The time is 5:14 pm, the 9th August, this is a continuation of the interview of Michael Smith. Mr Smith, I must still remind you that you are under caution. Do you understand?

MacLeod: Right, we'll go back to this period when you first became interested in communism. I suggest that that was the period that Victor Oshchenko was introduced to you, at one of the meetings?

Smith: I don't really, if that was the man that I mentioned to you before, in this sort of social thing in the Assembly Rooms, er, maybe that was him, but I don't, from the picture that you showed me, I don't think it was the same man. I mean, I would like to say it was, if it would help, but I really don't believe that was the same man. I think he had receding hair.

Smith: I only saw him the once, that ... I, I didn't see many Russians, because there weren't many about. I do know Andy Wilson used to, I think he had a few acquaintances at the Russian Embassy, because I think he used to get involved in discussions, or social gatherings, at the Russian Embassy. He regarded that as a bit of a perk, I think.

Smith: He may have been a friend of Andy's. I think he was a friend of Andy Wilson's, as far as I know.

MacLeod: So, he was quite likely to have been somebody from the Russian Embassy?

Smith: Maybe, I am not going to speculate. I suppose most of the Russians were, because I don't think, they didn't really have many outlets in this country for business.

Beels: Did anything in conversation give you any hint, that he might be connected with the Embassy in any way?

Smith: No, because I think he was just one of these people, who were just walking around socially, having a chat, and I didn't talk to him, as I said. All I, if I did anything, it was just a nod to acknowledge that he was there.

Smith: Not to me, no. I mean, he was introduced, he was like a guest of honour there. I think, perhaps, Andy had brought him along, I don't know.

Smith: No. I think it, probably what it was, Andy wanted to show off, “this is what we do in our area”. I think that's probably what it was, and he might have seen this guy at the Russian Embassy and said, “well, come along, and see what we are doing”, I am speculating, because I don't know. All, I can think, he must have come along with Andy, because I don't see who else would have invited him.

MacLeod: I am putting it to you, that that man was Victor Oshchenko. The man who recruited you for the KGB.

Smith: That's not true. I was not recruited by the KGB. That man, unless this man you've showed me, that photograph is wrong, if it's just old or whatever, maybe that's, maybe he has lost his hair, I don't know. But he certainly had receding hair, and that's what I do remember.

Smith: Well, that's the only thing that I can remember about him, that was significant.

Smith: Well, I'm remembering a lot of the details. I can't remember everything.

Smith: It's not a lot. I mean, if somebody had fair hair or dark hair, I mean, it's not a serious matter, surely.

Smith: I didn't talk to him. He made no impression at all on me, apart from, I saw him standing, he was walking around and talking to people. There was no, there was no real politics being discussed, as far as I could see. I think he was just having a chat and a drink.

Smith: No. He was in the vicinity, where I was drinking and talking with other friends. Whether Andy introduced him, or whether he just walked over and nodded, or, I, I had the impression perhaps he couldn't speak English, because that's why I'm very hesitant about trying to enter into any discussion in a language I don't know.

Smith: No. Let's get this straight, I am talking about a meeting. You were talking about something, you are talking about a bar, you said, and it was something to do with the ...

MacLeod: Or, even a social gathering. I am prepared to be corrected on that. But you met Victor Oshchenko at a function in Kingston on Thames.

Smith: If the meeting was the same one as you describe, and this man was there. I mean, I have no way of, maybe he was also in the vicinity, and I didn't see him. But I cannot recollect the face that you put in front of me yesterday.

MacLeod: I am sorry to labour the point, but it is necessary for me to go over this again. He has told us that he met you in a bar in Kingston on Thames.

MacLeod: There may be, it may be, that some of the detail is maybe not quite accurate, but the substance of it is correct, that he met you in Kingston.

Smith: There's a serious difference of opinion here. You say that it was something to do with the campaign against the Common Market, and this certainly was not about that, I know that for a fact.

MacLeod: Can I just correct myself then. You, probably, during one of those meetings, trade union meetings, were introduced to a Russian.

MacLeod: Whether it was, or he was in your company, or he became aware of you, but at whatever function …

Smith: I want to get to the bottom of this. I don't want to feel that you, you've got some doubt about if I met this guy or not. I mean, I've seriously…

Smith: Well I certainly am in doubt, because I think that the information that you are giving me doesn't tie up with what I remember. Now, if you say I met him in a bar, and it was something to do with the Common Market, I don't remember that situation.

MacLeod: Listen. We are disputing the irrelevant details here, the important …

MacLeod: The important detail, is the fact that you met a Russian, a Russian by the name of Victor Aleksovitch Oshchenko.

MacLeod: And he was at that time Third Secretary, Economic, at the Embassy. And he later became Second Secretary.

Smith: If he's, I am not doubting what he might have told you. What I doubt is his recollection of if he met me, or he met somebody else.

MacLeod: But it's not just meeting you. He's fully identified you. He has told us that you worked for them, from the time that you were first acquainted, and it was he who directed you into Thorn EMI, or EMI as it was then.

Smith: Let us get this … Look, this is not true. Let me get to the point about Thorn EMI. I told you why I went there. No, perhaps I didn't. The reason I went, because I want to be quite open about all this now, this has gone far enough. The reason I went to Thorn EMI was partly a pay rise, it was partly a career move, because my work at Rediffusion I felt was, had come to an end. There was no future in that company for me. I had actually been to my boss, and his name is Geoff Goldsmith, he'll confirm this, if he is still alive. Geoff Goldsmith worked at - he's G.G. Goldsmith - he would not give me a pay rise at the time, and I said, look, if you don't give me a pay rise, I am off, you know. And it just coincided with that job advert coming up, they gave me an interview. I was not offered the job I went for, actually, I, they said, well, “would you be interested in Quality Assurance”. At the time, I said I wasn't, but I was interviewed by Phil Beauchamp, who is the, or was the Deputy Quality Manager, I think he was at that time, and Phil Beauchamp said “I'll offer you a job”. And I thought, well, this is a golden opportunity to leave the company I am bored with, and get a pay rise, and actually get some more experience, and do something different. I was quite keen, I mean, it had nothing to do with anybody telling me to go and do it, I did it on my own back.

MacLeod: So, if I can just pick up that point. You went to Thorn EMI, correction, you went to EMI, as the company was known in those days, because you were going to get more money, basically?

Smith: Money is a part of the reason. The main reason, I would say, the main reason was a career move. I felt I didn't have anywhere to go in Rediffusion. I wanted to move into a different field. I was getting bored with TV manufacture, which is what Rediffusion is all about.

Smith: If this man has told you that, then I don't see how he can possibly justify that, because I have not been directed to go anywhere in my life. I decided, it looked like a good move, and I did it. And I don't care what this man says, he had no influence on me at all, because I didn't know him.

MacLeod: So, you took, you changed your job, and you got extra money. How much, can you recall just how much more you got for that, in salary terms, substantial, or modest increase?

Smith: It would have been, remember that salaries were very small then. It would have been, I think, 3,1 or 3,2 thousand per annum, and I think I was earning 2,8 or 2,9 in the old job. I can't be sure. It wasn't a huge increase, but it was enough to be worth the move. But it wasn't the reason I was going. Money was only part of it. The reason was a career move, I was going to get much more job satisfaction, and that probably was more important than the money.

Smith: You can't establish, I've got my pay slips at home, and I'll dig them out for you.

MacLeod: Well, we are already doing that, and we'll find them for ourselves. My information is that you took a pay cut when you went to EMI.

Smith: Then my old friend Victor is lying, because I don't know an old friend Victor, and how he could possibly know that information, God only knows?

MacLeod: Because they had recruited you, and they had directed you into a company that was carrying out …

MacLeod: … Government contract work, and in order to compensate you for the loss in salary.

Smith: Well, I don't know what he said, because I don't know the guy, and I don't know how he's got this information. But the facts of the case are, I took a pay increase. Now, I don't see how he could possibly know I took a pay cut, when it's not true. I can't see how you can dwell on this point, when it's just factual. I mean, it's in black and white.

Smith: The one time I have taken a pay cut is when I went to Evershed & Vignoles, and that was because I had a job to go to, and I'd rather be working than not. That's the only reason I took a pay cut at that time. But that's the only time I've taken a pay cut, in the whole of my working life. I am not an idiot, I don't go for pay cuts, and if this man has told you that, then I am sorry, he's got the wrong information. Why should I lie about it, it's in black and white on my pay slips.

MacLeod: Mr Smith, you know as well as I do, we are wasting each other's time here.

MacLeod: and you know that you were working for the KGB, for a number of years.

MacLeod: For a long time. Look me in the eye, and tell me that you were not working for the KGB.

Smith: Ok. I'll look you in the directly in the eye, and I'll say I was not working for the KGB.

Smith: What we are trying to get to is the evidence, that you've put on the table, that says this happened. And I have not seen one jot of evidence.

MacLeod: Are you saying that, after Victor Oshchenko left, that you weren't handed over to another KGB Officer, and I am now going to present you with another photograph.

MacLeod: Victor Lazin, who became your controller after Victor Oshchenko. Have a good look at him.

Smith: He looks like ex-Mafia to me. I mean, this man wouldn't be seen dead on the streets, as far as I am concerned.

MacLeod: Why should he say that - and this could only be within your knowledge, or within his knowledge - that when you went to collect a message from a DLB, and you know what a DLB is, because you got training in it.

MacLeod: Yes, you know precisely what I am talking about. On one occasion, when you were under his control, you went to a DLB, and the kids had removed the message from the telephone box. That knowledge is unique to him, and it's unique to you.

Beels: I must say, at this stage, that Superintendent McLeod has presented a photograph which we will exhibit as MM/2.

Jefferies: You are saying that he has told you. Is that what you are saying?

MacLeod: What I am saying, no. What I am saying is, our information is that this man controlled Mr Smith, in the period after Victor Oshchenko left the London Embassy, the Russian Embassy.

MacLeod: Victor Niklevitch Lazin, and he was at that time the secretary at the Science and Technology Department at the Embassy. Now, are you telling me you never met that man?

Smith: I don't think I'd want to be seen dead with a man like that. Look at the face on him. How could I possibly not forget a face like that?

MacLeod: Well I want you to take a good hard look at him, because you know ...

MacLeod: This is not the same Victor, and you well know it's not the same Victor. He is the man that, the first Victor, Victor Oshchenko introduced you to when Oshchenko left the Russian Embassy in London.

Smith: No, you didn't establish that he came from the Russian Embassy before. Are you saying this man worked for the Russian Embassy?

MacLeod: I am telling you they both worked for the Russian Embassy, under diplomatic cover. They were KGB Officers, and they were your controllers.

Smith: I've already said, nobody controls me, and I'm not going to be controlled by anybody. I don't intend to …

MacLeod: Well, the terminology is, as you well know, is terminology, it's used in that context. Put it this way, they were the men who were dealing with you. They were the men that you were reporting to. Am I right, or am I wrong?

MacLeod: You know, you know as well as I do, that I am right, and I only say these things if I am absolutely confident.

Smith: You might be confident, based on what this man has said. Is it this man, or the other man, I don't ...?

MacLeod: And I know who the other handlers were, after Victor Lazin moved on.

Smith: Well, when am I supposed to have met these people, because you are coming up with photographs and accusations. I, you have given me no concrete evidence of where I am supposed to have met them, or when, or under what circumstances.

MacLeod: Look, I am giving you the opportunity, to tell me what your dealings were with these 2 Russian KGB Officers?

MacLeod: You know, I am not going to go back over this again. I said to you, and I'll say only once again, you met Victor Oshchenko in some social function, either in connection with your trade union activities, or in connection with your Communist Party activities, or YCL.

Smith: Well, let's go back to this so-called meeting that, I think, we are actually talking about different occasions. You say I met this Victor Oshchenko at a bar, and I'm disputing that, because I don't think I went to a meeting in a bar where they were discussing the ...

MacLeod: I am not saying that Victor Oshchenko necessarily met you in a bar.

Smith: But you seem to be saying to me, that that's the time when I met this Victor.

MacLeod: You were introduced to the Russians in a bar, or at some social function in Kingston on Thames.

Smith: Ok then, let's say you are right, let's say I've met this guy. I don't know him from Adam, but he was introduced to me, and I've forgotten it. I certainly wouldn't forget it, if he was going to be seeing me on a regular basis.

MacLeod: Well, of course you wouldn't forget, that's why I know that you ...

Smith: This is why I'm disputing that that was the man that I actually met. Because I think that, surely, I would have known him. What you are putting to me, is on the basis of one meeting, that I remember this man, and I don't.

MacLeod: I can't see how you can't remember Oshchenko, considering that he was your contact, your KGB contact, between well, from the time that he first made your acquaintance, on or around 1974, 1975, whatever time.

Smith: You're coming up with a definite occasion, like I've mentioned a definite occasion.

MacLeod: He, he was the man that you had dealings with. He knew you, as Mick. You knew him as Vic. And you met regularly in the Richmond, Kingston upon Thames area.

MacLeod: Mike, beg your pardon, Mike. You were known to him as Mike, and you referred to him, addressed him as Vic.

MacLeod: That was how he was addressed, and he has told us that that's how he was ...

MacLeod: Let's not go into the forms of address, because I don't think that's as important as trying to establish your relationship with Oshchenko and Lazin. And I'll deal first of all with Oshchenko, because he was the man that recruited you, he was the man that advised you to cut any associations with the trade union movement. He was the man that advised you …

Smith: No, he did not advise me, because I did it on my own back, I explained to you before exactly what happened. I decided to, not immediately, but over a period of time, I just dropped out of active politics. I wasn't interested any more, and the only reason ...

MacLeod: You are lying, because you were directed by the KGB to give up any links with the Communist Party of Great Britain, because that would obviously draw attention to you. In fact, they were suspicious of you, because of your CPGB, or YCL connections. It wasn't really the most favourable recruiting ground for a KGB agent, anybody who might be involved with the CPGB.

MacLeod: And that's the reason they asked you to sever your links. That is the reason you went to Vienna in 1979, and you remember what happened there, didn't you?

Smith: Ok then, we'll come on to Vienna. I'll explain now why I went to Vienna.

Smith: I was getting married that Autumn, I'm more or less sure about. I wanted to go on a trip on my own, free from association with my wife, because I just wanted to be alone and think things over.

Smith: Vienna is a place I'd never been. I'd nearly been there in 1970, when I had been hitch-hiking around Europe, and I very much wanted to go there for a holiday, and I saw a cheap long-weekend trip advertised, which I booked up. I went sight-seeing in Vienna, I went up the ...

Smith: I went on my own, yes. As I said, I wanted to be away from my wife, she was my fiancée.

MacLeod: Is that something that one would normally do. I mean, one would have thought that you would have taken her.

Smith: We'd had a bit of a tumultuous early relationship, and I thought just to get away for a few days, because it was a bit claustrophobic, if you like, not being able to think things through. I was making a momentous decision, I thought should I marry my wife or not.

MacLeod: The only momentous decision that you had to make, on that occasion, was whether you should or shouldn't undertake a loyalty test.

Smith: But I would know if I had a lie detector on, nobody put any lie detectors on me at all.

MacLeod: And needless to say, you were probably delighted, as the Russians were, when you passed it.

MacLeod: Because, up to then, they suspected you of being a British Security Service plant. They still weren't sure whether or not to trust you.

Smith: I am expecting you to hear me. I went on a sightseeing tour round Vienna. I went out for a few meals, got a bit drunk, I bought a few souvenirs, and that's all that I did. I just had a rest, and it was quite an enjoyable experience.

Beels: Why were you so reluctant earlier, when we interviewed you before, to mention or to even discuss in any way Vienna?

Smith: Right, I'll tell you exactly why, because I wanted to get onto the serious matters that we were here to discuss, and I felt that you were just detracting from that.

MacLeod: Why, if it was such an innocent occasion, why didn't you just tell us that you went out there for a long weekend away?

Smith: Because it's a waste of my time, to discuss things that have got no relevance to what I want to get ...

Smith: Because that was a critical point in the discussion. You were trying to say what happened over a period of time. That brought us up to the point where I was going into ...

MacLeod: Yes, but we are now arriving at a situation that we should have been at several hours ago. I was trying to establish …

Smith: Well, it was your way of questioning that put us in that position, sorry. I mean, …

MacLeod: Right, I mean, all I asked you, was have you ever visited Vienna. Because I knew you'd visited Vienna.

Smith: I just didn't want to discuss it at that point, and I was trying to make that clear.

Smith: Now, you've put something a bit more concrete on the table. It's still not backed up by anything, that I can see as serious evidence.

MacLeod: If you expect me to put all my cards on the table, you're sadly mistaken, you are sadly mistaken. I don't want you to be under illusion about this at all.

MacLeod: We will carry on. I am going to ask you again about Victor Oshchenko, the man that recruited you for the KGB. The man that you almost became a personal friend with.

Smith: I've not become a personal friend with anybody from the Russian Embassy.

MacLeod: … he and you used to go for meals round Hampton Court, and various other locations. You were very keen on Spanish restaurants, were you not?

Smith: No, I don't particularly like Spanish restaurants, to be honest. Spanish food is not as good as French or Italian.

MacLeod: You were recruited by Victor Oshchenko, who was a KGB agent working out of the Russian Embassy in the early '70s. He was the man that recruited you through your association with the trade union or YCL, whatever. You were in a situation where you were ripe for recruitment, and he did precisely that, in the classic ...

Smith: Are you sure it wasn't that, that he was … you're saying that he had something in Kingston, and I might have been present at some meeting. Isn't it very likely that this man has been talking to other people I used to associate with, like Andy Wilson and such like, and targeting me for a case that he has built up himself, as to what my involvement with him is.

Smith: I don't know, maybe he wants to tell you a lot of things, to convince you that he's a good agent, or whatever, but what on earth has it got to do with me. I mean, if this man has got evidence, that he has given you on me, then he has not got it from me, he has got it from some other source.

Beels: Now, at that point, as the tape is coming to an end, I am going to switch off the machine. The time is 5:42 pm.

Beels: The time is 5:44 pm on 9th August. This is a continuation of the interview of Mr Michael Smith. Now Mr Smith, we have been interviewing you for some time. You've indicated you're happy to carry on. Can you confirm that now, on tape, that you're still happy to carry on.

Beels: And, if you wish to take a break at any stage, please do say so, and we'll end the interview.

Beels: I must remind you, you're still under caution. Do you understand that?

MacLeod: Can we go back to your trip to Vienna. How many days did you spend over there?

Smith: I think it was about 3 days. I, I can't remember exactly, but it was a long weekend. Three days I think.

MacLeod: No. Did you take any, did you take any documents from your place of work?

MacLeod: To demonstrate, to demonstrate to your KGB doubters, that you were a man of integrity, whom they could trust, and in order to establish your integrity, they asked you to undertake this lie detector test, which you did.

Smith: I did not undertake a lie detector test, neither did I take documents, of the nature you're indicating. The only documents I took were travel documents, and passport, and that was that.

MacLeod: Well, what I'm saying is, when you went there, you met up with another KGB Officer. A man by the surname of Stalnov, initials B.K.

MacLeod: Right, I'm going to show you a passport photograph of the man Stalnov, who's a man that conducted the lie detector test on you.

Smith: I really think this evidence is very flimsy. I'm sorry, but I can't, on the basis of you showing me photographs that, particularly this last one, which is not a very good likeness, I think.

MacLeod: Now I agree, it's not a very good likeness, but I'm sure, if your memory is as good as is ...

Smith: I find it very hard to, to, to recognise people from that sort of pose, anyway.

MacLeod: Well, if your memory is as good as it's been up to now, you should remember you went to Vienna …

MacLeod: Albeit, that that is maybe an old photograph, but that is the man I'm telling you that you met.

Smith: No, I didn't meet that man in Vienna. Neither did I take a lie detector test. The only people I spoke to, in Vienna, were people at the hotel where I was staying, and in a couple of restaurants I visited when I was there.

MacLeod: In fact, you, you gained yourself quite a bit of credibility now with the KGB, after that visit. Not only did you pass the lie detector test, but the ...

Smith: Can you be more specific, because those lie … I … if somebody had put something on me while I was there, I would have known it. There's a lie … What does this thing look like? Because I don't recollect I was strapped up to anything, or ...

Smith: Well, I, I think this is incredible. I mean, I've never had a lie detector test in my life.

MacLeod: Furthermore , furthermore the information that you passed on that occasion ...

MacLeod: ... was considered of such value, that even Andropov, the former President, who at the time was the Head of the KGB. Andropov was impressed. Andropov was very impressed. That must have been the climax of your spying career.

Smith: But, but, what, what information? I, it was medical facts. I was working at EMI Medical at the time. Are you saying, that, that the work on the brain scanners I passed on.

MacLeod: You, you even passed them on unclassified information concerning the brain scanner project. Unclassified, granted. They were well …

Smith: You, are you saying this is what I passed onto this man, at this time?

MacLeod: At that time. You, you went from Thorn, from EMI into the Medical Division.

MacLeod: ... and after that, you continued to pass information to them, albeit that the information you were passing then, was maybe not as, and certainly was unclassified, but you continued.

Smith: I would like to, to, to confirm or deny what you're saying, but I find it so incredulous, because I know it's not true. I, I did not take any documents at all, apart from the documents I needed to travel to Vienna. I know that for a fact, and I, I don't care what this man says. I know that for a fact. An absolute fact, that I did not take any documents. And I'm not, I'm not lying.

MacLeod: Well, given that the, given that the medical documentation, or the medical project that you were involved in was unclassified. Did you take unclassified material, after all …?

Smith: Look. I, I … If I did, I would tell you. I did not take any documentation to Vienna with me, to that man.

Smith: I didn't meet anybody there, just the people, I, I bumped into in casual relationships in, in the restaurant, and I remember, I think, I chatted to the woman who made me a strudel, in the restaurant. I mean, that sort of thing. That was the only discussions I had with anybody. Very, very casual. I, I was there for a rest, after all.

MacLeod: How can you remember that kind of detail, about the woman who made you …?

Smith: Because I remember, because I like apple strudel, and I remember that was one of the reasons I, I liked being in Vienna. I liked the apple strudel there.

MacLeod: I just find it incredible, how your memory serves you well for some, some detail.

Smith: Well, you know how memory works by association, and if I can associate something good about something, or something bad, it usually sticks in the mind, and that's, that's why I probably don't remember this guy, this meeting with this guy, you seem to insist I met, because he obviously didn't have any impression on me.

MacLeod: Are you telling me, that you were not, that you were not working for the Russians?

Smith: No, I don't know you're right. If you feel I'm lying, then that's up to you. I, I cannot argue with a case that I don't have in front of me. If you say that this man says he knows me, then I think you, you have to bring the evidence forward, not me, because I can't prove negatively that I did not know this man, because obviously, I, I've got to produce evidence to show I didn't know him. I think that's even harder, than what you obviously seem to be trying. You've got statements from a man, who's probably desperate to get out of his country, who'd say anything, use any connection. I, I, I'm not in that position. I, I'm a law abiding citizen, who's happily married, who lives a very normal life, and just enjoys a few pursuits like flamenco and music. I mean, I don't see what that's got to do with, with KGB agents, and things that are best left to John le Carré novels, I'm sorry to say.

Smith: The KGB have never paid me a penny, because I, I've not worked for the KGB. I've told you this.

MacLeod: Well, my, my, my information is that they did pay you. They paid you varying amounts on a monthly basis.

MacLeod: Well, as and when the meets were made. They were paying you sums that varied, so as not to draw attention to the fact, that you were in receipt of regular sums, in order to, in order to disguise the source of the monies. They advised you to spend money carefully, so as not to draw attention to yourself. They're the ones that taught you field craft, that you were employing yesterday before you were disrupted.

Smith: This is all, is all a joke on your part. I really can't see what point you're trying to make.

MacLeod: The point I'm making, is that you were passing on classified information to the KGB.

Smith: I was not passing on classified information. I know, as well as you do that, the importance of classified information. I don't believe I ever, knowingly, passed any information onto anybody, which you could, be of any harm to this country.

Smith: Well, I'm not saying … Like everybody says, maybe we've said something in the pub over a drink. It happens, and I don't know if, if that could have been misconstrued.

Smith: Well, what you seem to be talking about is a far more serious offence, which sounds like somebody deliberately contriving to pass on information, and I, I can't see myself in that role.

Smith: Well, then I, I think this is where we must differ, you know, because I can't argue with that, I'm sorry.

MacLeod: I just find it extraordinary, that we have a KGB defector, who we know was serving at the London, London, the Russian Embassy in London in the early '70s, who claims that he knew you. He met you, he recruited you, he taught you the basics.

MacLeod: Well, if we're going to be specific, we're talking about, let's see. Oshchenko was attached to the Russian Embassy in London between August 1972 and September 1979. He was, he was First and then a Second Secretary at the Embassy. He also had a KGB role. It was in that role that he spotted you, and recruited you.

MacLeod: You had the political ideology. You had the leanings. You were obviously committed. It wasn't just a slight flirtation with communism, because you were involved for a period of, what did we say, 4 years?

Smith: Well, 4 years at that time in my life, when I'm going through a lot of changes, a lot of experience changes, I don't think is unreasonable.

Beels: But, you will accept that you were, at one particular time, working on the development of the XN715, which was a secret and classified project.

Beels: A very, very important, very important to the security of this country. You had in your possession, in your, in your knowledge, your experience, this kind of knowledge that would be of use to an enemy of this country.

Smith: I disagree with that, because the work I was doing was rather specialist. I, I was testing sub-units, as I said, mainly, being involved with ...

Smith: … power supplies, and things like that. It was not - I'm judging this - it was not of the sort of nature, that I think, that would be of any use to anybody.

Smith: No, I mean, it's, … Ok, It's classified. It's important. It's not divulged. But the amount of my involvement, I think, was such that it wouldn't, on its own, be of any real use to anybody.

Smith: Some access. I, I've explained this before, I had some access to information, not sufficient to give me an overview of the project, just the bits I needed to deal, deal with. I mean, this is actually the way it's designed, isn't it?

Beels: You've also said that security at times, and in certain parts, of the Systems and Weapons Division at Feltham, was lax.

Beels: So, you therefore were in a position, you were aware of these lapses in security. You were in a position to take advantage of it.

Smith: You're talking about a different period, actually. I mean, if you bear with me. The reason I wrote that letter, and you know it was, because I, I was trying to resolve a security question that was hanging over me. I wrote that letter in 1980, I think, which was 2 years after I left EMI.

Smith: It was referring partly to that, but the business about the shopping bag, and that sort of thing, was not to do with my period in, when I left in 1978. It was to do with the situation that existed in 1980. I think that should be made clear.

Smith: I visited, I visited Feltham for a series of tests, when I was at Thorn EMI Datatech. Those series of tests involved using some equipment at EMI Electronics, Feltham. So, I had access to the site, and my main point was: why am I being granted access, when I've lost my security clearance, and that was really the crux of what, what I was griping about.

Beels: So, let me get this straight. This is after your security clearance has been taken away. You've gone back and had access to the site?

Smith: Not that. I, I was allowed on the premises. I don't think I would have been allowed to go anywhere.

Smith: Yes, more or less. We'd go to lunch, and the reason we were going on the main yard was to have lunch.

Beels: So, he wouldn't be standing there over your shoulder, checking every single movement of yours during the day. Where you were going. He was a friend of yours. He presumably trusted you and allowed you to ...

Beels: I'm not making accusations. I am not making accusations as such, I …

Smith: I was not roaming around the building, no. I spent most of my time in the vibration section, which is an out-building of EMI Electronics, and we did all our work there. And that's where this fuze system was located, I discussed about being in a shopping bag, that …

Smith: Now, that is where I was spending most of my day. I went into the main building to get lunch, and this is when Robert Lindsay, his name is, accompanied me, and we went to lunch in the canteen. The only other reason was to discuss something with, we had another trip where we were looking at humidity and temperature tests, which were in the main building, it's another part of the site there, but I was working all the time I had no …

Beels: Are you saying that the work on the development of the XN715 was taking place - and let me get this right, as I have not been there, I just want to get it right, in my mind - was in a, what you would describe as an out-building?

Smith: It's an out-building. It's a building on it's own, on the other side of the car park from the main building.

Smith: They gave me it, I shouldn't have had access, but the point I was making ...

Smith: I shouldn't have had access to the building if I didn't have security clearance, because the site itself is covered, not just the main building, and I was allowed onto that site ...

Beels: How long were you allowed in there for, over what period of time are we talking about?

Beels: You walk in freely, your face is familiar, and you were allowed to travel and walk ...

Smith: No. We were there to do a job, and they knew where we came from, they knew who we were, there was no suspicion about why we should be there. We were there to do a job that, we had paid to have access to that equipment.

MacLeod: When you complained about this weakness in security at EMI, were you talking specifically about the Systems and the …

MacLeod: Weapons, yes. Is that what you were talking about, or were you talking about the other part of ...?

Smith: No, no. It was the whole Systems & Weapons site at Victoria Road, Feltham.

Smith: Well, I think I overstated the case to make a point. I was not trying to, to do any more than that.

MacLeod: So, I mean, what you were talking about, there was the apparent security weaknesses in the system at EMI at Feltham, in respect of this …

MacLeod: No, but I am just trying to, you were the one that actually made the, made the comments to the MoD. I just want to clarify, in my own mind, that that's what you meant precisely.

Smith: I meant, there were certain weaknesses that I could see. Maybe other people saw as well, but I just felt it was worthy of comment, and in the predicament I was in, I felt, why shouldn't I say something about what I saw as other weaknesses what, they are calling me a weakness, and what are these other weaknesses.

MacLeod: Ok. The work that was carried out on this project, If that information concerning the fuze was leaked, what's your views on that, would it be damaging to west …to our national interests?

Smith: … I don't know the total consequences. I am only going on what I was told, that it was covered by the Official Secrets Act.

Smith: I, that's a question I can't have any knowledge of. I mean, I don't know what, you see ...

Beels: No. Let me make this point first. What was your understanding of the workings of this radar fuze, the XN715?

Beels: Yes. How, just describe to me as a layman, in principle what it does, what its function is?

MacLeod: Well, you can rest assured. Can I just make this point. We have the necessary security clearance. As far as Mr Jefferies is concerned, he has not signed the Official Secrets Act, but I have already apprised him of his responsibilities in that, he, any information that's made privy to him in these interviews, will be treated in the same way as if he had signed the Official Secrets Act. So, you can take it from me, we are all cleared to the highest classification. And we are only just going to delay matters, if we don't get to the gist of the questions that have been put. Now tell us, Answer Mr Beels.

Beels: As I tried to say. As a layman, just try and describe to me what this radar fuze XN715 does, so that we can all understand?

Smith: The basic, now you have got to understand, we were only dealing with parts of the system, the system was much more than what we had to built. But my understanding of it was, that it was basically a thing that decided the height of detonation of a nuclear weapon, and that's all that it was. I mean, it didn't do any more than that.

Beels: So, if that, the knowledge concerning that fuze was to fall into the hands of, say, the Russians, it would therefore, would be extremely damaging in times …?

Beels: If a situation was to occur, that there was a war between the 2 countries.

Smith: If I say something, it's based on inadequate knowledge on my behalf, because I don't know what the other, what the Russian side ...

Smith: Ok. Within my knowledge, in my knowledge. All I can say is, I think it would be damaging to the British interests if that information was leaked, but I can't say in what way it would be damaging, because I don't know what the enemy would use it for.

MacLeod: Well, can I just pick up on that point. I mean, surely, I mean, here we've got a fuze, literally the thing that detonates a nuclear weapon, that determines the height of detonation of the free-fall nuclear weapon. Are you saying that ...

MacLeod: I find it incredible, that you are giving the answer that you're giving.

Smith: I think it would be damaging, but what you seem to want me to say, is that I know in what way it would be damaging. I don't, I don't know what they would use that information for. In what way …

MacLeod: They'd use it for themselves, to counter the West's nuclear capability. We are talking about serious stuff here, we're talking about the Russians having the capability, in effect, to neutralise any nuclear warhead that might have been directed in their direction!

Smith: I could not neutralise it. You've got to realise that this was a very sophisticated fuze.

Smith: And, as far as I was concerned, there was no way it could be, what's the word, blocked?

Smith: Jammed. There's no way it could be jammed. There's no way it could be stopped from detonating. It was designed to be, to work every time, and I don't believe anybody could have stopped that working, even if they had beamed something up at it, because I saw the testing, and people were saying that to me in the Lab. This is, it must work every time, it's a, it was designed to do that. I mean, if somebody jammed it, they would have to know far more about it than I ever could know.

MacLeod: Well, it's interesting that the, not long after this work was being, sort of, pioneered at EMI, at Feltham, that the Russians also acquired the same technology.

Smith: Well, they couldn't have got it from me, because I didn't have enough knowledge. I'd like to give you the satisfaction of saying I could build one, but …

Smith: There's no way that I had that knowledge. All I knew about it, was that it had certain assemblies in it, that I knew how to test.

MacLeod: You know more about the workings of this fuze than what you're prepared to talk about.

MacLeod: Because I am just going to refer back to the position, I think you were promoted, you started off as a test engineer?

MacLeod: Yes, and you took up the position of, you were assigned to the development of the XN715, a classified project.

Smith: I was never involved in development work, I was only a test engineer there.

MacLeod: I think, that for the purpose of this discussion, we can agree that that's synonymous.

Smith: Well no, I, I want to disagree on the point, that I was involved in development. I was never involved in development.

MacLeod: Ok. You weren't involved, but you were overseeing. The point I am trying to make, that you were a quality engineer, that you had oversight of the whole project concerning the fuze?

Smith: Well, I'd like to know where you got that information from, because I don't think that is accurate. My involvement, I, I want to be honest about this, because I am not trying to hide anything now. My involvement with that fuze, was that I tested sub-assemblies, to try to prove the procedures on testing, to ensure that specifications could be met on sub-assemblies. Now sub-assemblies, as you know, are not the complete fuze, they are just little bits that inter-react with each other. And I had no, at that time, had no real knowledge of the overall system, and it was only really, I suppose, in the last couple of weeks I was there, I think it was, when I saw the whole fuze put together. We never, I never saw the project through.

Beels: Now, we are coming to the end of the tape. Are we going to continue, or …?

Smith: I think we had better continue, because I want to get this point sorted out.

Beels: As we are coming to the end of this tape, I am about to switch the machine off. The time is 6:12 pm.

INTERVIEW 5 ~ TAPE 12

Beels: The time is 6:19 pm, by my watch. This is a continuation of the interview of Michael Smith. During the short break, when tapes were changed, Mr MacLeod and Mr Jefferies took the opportunity to stretch their legs. There was no conversation between myself and Mr Smith, of any consequence, or of any evidential value. Mr Smith, I must warn you, still, that you are under caution, and you are not obliged to say anything. You understand the caution?

MacLeod: I am going to come back to the main thrust of this interview, and that is to talk about your work, you have been doing for the KGB. I am not going to beat about the bush in, any longer. Because, I mean, we have talked about your communist, your previous association with the Communist Party. We've talked on, round the edges of certain issues. I want to come back now to what is at the forefront of my mind, the extent to which you were working for the KGB. It's not a hypothetical question on my part, I regard that as a statement of fact, and I want you in your own words, and in your own time, to tell me what you've done for the KGB, your full involvement with the KGB over the years?

Smith: I cannot talk about involvement with the KGB, because I have not been involved with the KGB. If I had been in contact with any KGB Officers, it was without my knowledge. As we were discussing before, on the earlier tape, this meeting in a bar or a hall, I'm not sure which; that I may or may not have met a KGB Officer. That's the only time I can possibly recollect, that I have ever, would have come into contact with one of these people. But I have certainly not been working consciously for the KGB at any time.

MacLeod: Right. Have you ever passed information on to anybody else, outside your workplace, concerning the work that you were involved in. Have you ever discussed the work that you were involved in with EMI?

Smith: What I discussed with my wife was, um, it could be of no consequence to anybody, it was just a very, descriptive version of what I did.

MacLeod: But you did feel the need, bearing in mind that you were involved in this project for EMI before you met your wife?

MacLeod: And your wife tells us, that you were discussing with her, and it had been the matter of some conversation between the two of you, you had been discussing with her, this particular project that you were involved in, albeit some time before you met her?

Smith: Ok. The reason we were discussing it, as we've said earlier, was that it had been a bone of contention between us, about me not having the security clearance, and not getting the job I'd been after. And she, obviously, wanted some explanation of what this was all about, and so I had to piece it together for her, which involved me discussing a little bit about what I had been doing - not in detail, I didn't give her the facts and figures - it was purely a description that it was a fuze, roughly what it did. But she had no idea how it could work, or what use, the information I gave her could be of no use to anybody. That's my honest opinion.

MacLeod: She made a statement too, did she not, that, on one occasion when she asked you: “were you, are you or are you not a friend of this country”. What do you think she meant by that?

MacLeod: Or words to that effect, if not precisely those words. You discussed it with her.

Smith: She meant, I think, yes, she probably did say that, because she was very angry I remember, at the time when we first discussed this security clearance matter, and she said, “oh, so you must be a spy” or something like that. I am sure she said something like, because she was very …

Smith: Because she said, “well, why haven't you got the security clearance, there's obviously a reason for it”, and that's the only reason she would have said something like that, I think, is because she was upset about it, and thought that's the only logical conclusion, the way she could piece the facts together was, that I must be a spy, because that's why they won't give you the clearance. I think that's all she meant.

Smith: I think that's what she said, she said to me at one time, something …

MacLeod: But you did discuss your previous membership of the Communist Party with her? I mean, surely, that would …

MacLeod: No, but she knew you were, she knew that you had previous connections with the Communist Party?

MacLeod: Can I just finish the point I am trying to make. Could you not have said to her, “well, look, the reason I haven't got this security clearance is because at some stage, a few years ago, I was involved with the Communist Party”.

MacLeod: And why should she then make the assumption, that that should necessarily make you a spy?

Smith: Because she, perhaps, because she's got a rather romantic view of things. She didn't see it, the way I presented it to her, but jumped to conclusions, and I put her right by saying, “no, it was, it's not that at all, it's not the way you're making out, it was, I am sure, because of my involvement in the Young Communist League that caused this”. In fact, I was more concerned that it had been my relationship with my flatmate called John Watson, who I shared a flat with for a long time. He had a connection with the Workers Socialist Party, I can't remember the name of the group, they were a Trotskyist group. He had an association with that through a friend of his called, um, Tim Summers, who was quite a big name in this organisation, I think I've got it right, is it the Workers Socialist Party, WP, or …

Smith: He's well known, I'm sure, as a, or he was, as a bigwig in this thing. Now, he used to come round to our flat, and my friend John, who I shared the flat with, used to be on the phone all the time, and I had every feeling that these were the people who got me mixed up, and gave me this security problem. I seriously thought that, because I thought, “well, I have not been doing anything wrong, why should somebody pick on me”, and I didn't realise, that there had been some sort of tracking back through my history.

MacLeod: I mean, if you were a member of the Communist Party, and you hadn't declared it on your application form, or your Vetting form, why should that come as any great surprise. I mean, you misled them, you deceived them, and you even deceived the interviewing officer. It was only half way through your interview ...

Smith: I don't feel any pride in the fact that, what happened then, happened the way it did. I, if it could have happened any differently, I would have changed it. But I'd be stupid to say that I didn't go into it feeling, well, that there wasn't anything to find out, that these people would just allow me to continue.

MacLeod: So, you thought it would be quite acceptable, for somebody of communist persuasion to hold the position ...

Smith: But, at this time I didn't have communist persuasion, I was quite happy to be a normal citizen of this country.

Smith: Well, it didn't suit the KGB at all. Because nobody told me to do that. I was quite happy to live the way I had been living. I didn't see any way it should discontinue.

MacLeod: The reason that you were disappointed, was because it removed you from a position where you were able to be of value to the KGB.

Smith: It's certainly not true, because that position had already happened. I had already left EMI in 1978. So, it could be of no benefit to anybody but me. I was looking at career prospects for myself, not for anybody else, myself and my wife.

MacLeod: Yes, but you were looking, I would suggest, to getting into another company involved on government contract work, where you could continue your activities in spying for the KGB.

Smith: It was purely that, there would be more options open for better career prospects, to have the security clearance than not. But, as it turned out, I had a reasonable job at S.E. Labs, which then became Thorn EMI Datatech. I had no reason to worry that I was going to be in financial problems, or would be doing work that was completely unsuitable. I was happy enough.

MacLeod: During the time that you were at EMI, did you ever make any notes or sketches, or whatever, of the work. The details of the …?

MacLeod: Yes, but let me clarify that. Did you ever take away from your place of work notes?

Smith: Well, it's not like you, you know, you used to take work home, like I have done in the past.

Smith: There is a reason for that, because I was involved in testing physical things, and the physical things were in the building. I mean …

MacLeod: So, there's no need then, for you to take, or for you to have taken any material?

MacLeod: Right, Ok. So, you're telling me that you never took away any classified material from EMI?

Smith: Now look, I, if I had a reason to take it away, I would tell you. If I had to take it home to work on it, but the nature of my work was not like that.

MacLeod: Well, can I put to you another scenario. You may not have taken documents away from your place of work, you may not have made sketches at your place of work, but can I ask you, did you make any sketches or notes from memory, when you returned home?

MacLeod: Yes, from memory, of the work that you were involved on in the project?

Smith: No I didn't. I mean, there's no, well you are asking me something that happened 14 years ago, and I do not recollect having any need to make any notes when I was away from work.

Smith: I mean, you can imagine the implications of that. I mean, why should I do that? I am just as likely to have somebody knocking on the door and investigating me then, as now, and if they found that information, I'd be in trouble. Well, why should I do it?

MacLeod: Well, it's just as likely to have somebody knocking on your door then. I mean, what would there be to arouse suspicion that you were taking material away? You already had security clearance, and you were a communist, Ok, of short duration.

Smith: I've already explained, I think, that I was visited by a member of the Special Branch, in about 1977, who flashed a card at me, and asked me a lot of questions. I was very suspicious about it, and I went straight down to the police station, because I thought the man was a burglar, and was looking for some way into my flat. They laughed it off, but I mentioned this at work, and they said, “ah yes, they do that sort of thing to check up on people, to make sure that they are who they say they are, where they live”, and it made me think, yes, “I've got to watch this, you don't do things like that”, you know. I'd no reason to, why should I. Actually, the work wasn't very interesting outside. I mean, whereas some work, that people do, may have spin-offs in their private lives - they may make use of the circuit they have designed, for something such as an amplifier - that sort of work has no interest outside that building. I mean, you can't use a fuze for mowing the lawn, or anything like that, it's not that sort of thing.

Beels: But we have already said, and you have already confirmed, that the information on the project that you were working on would be useful to somebody else.

Smith: I've already stated, that I think it was probably a very serious thing, if it got into the wrong hands, but I am not going to put, have you put words into my mouth about how serious it might have been. Because, unless I know all about the Russian measures on the other side, how can I possibly know what use it will be to them?

MacLeod: Well, clearly it wouldn't have been given the secret classification, unless it was considered to be …

Smith: We established it was a secret project. I was under the full awareness of the importance of the work, I signed the Official Secrets Act, everything was done according to the book. I signed documents in and out that I had, I only had about, I think, 2 or 3 documents that I had to use, which were just sub-assembly test procedures, and, of that nature.

MacLeod: If the, if I were to accept what you are saying, that you're an innocent man, that you've had no connections or dealings whatsoever with the KGB, and I've got it wrong. Would it be, what sort of, if the KGB wanted to recruit somebody to obtain that kind of work, how easy would it be for them to get into a company like EMI?

Smith: Well, I wouldn't know. I mean, not being a KGB agent, I wouldn't know how easy, but …

Smith: I could imaging that people with weaknesses, maybe, or people, as we know homosexuals, and people of this nature may fall prey to blackmail, and such like. I know these sort of things go on.

MacLeod: Is it the kind of establishment that you would expect the KGB to take an interest in?

Smith: I suppose they would, like any other establishment that is doing work on weapons, and ...

MacLeod: If the KGB were to target somebody, into the like of Thorn EMI, or any other company carrying out classified contract work?

Smith: It wouldn't be unreasonable, that anybody who looks at the facts would probably say, “that's the sort of place they might target”. But if you're talking about people, individuals I mean, as I mentioned in the letter, there was a guy, I think he was Iranian, who had openly talked about travelling to Moscow, I think it was, and he was saying things that I wouldn't have said there in public, about the nature of the system being better over there for social welfare, and things like that.

And he was still working there when I left, and I was, it upset me to think that he was there and I wasn't, and he was the one who was doing all the talking. And it's things like that that stick in my mind, as being the contradictions of this sort of business.

MacLeod: Would you expect, if the Russians were going to recruit somebody, for them to want to ensure that the person they are recruiting maintains a fairly nondescript lifestyle, so as not to draw attention to themselves. To conform, and to be seen to be, if you like, pro-establishment, conservative with a small c, tennis players?

Smith: Right. Tennis players (laughs). I don't know, I don't know if that's true. I mean, there was a case, I remember from the '60s, I read in The People, or somewhere. I think it was a family, a husband and wife - I've forgotten their names - husband and wife, people who were recruited by Russians, I don't know if they were the KGB. And they had a very flamboyant lifestyle I read - parties, and inviting people round, and they were anything but what you could say, fitting the bill, as being quiet.

MacLeod: So, there isn't any particular stereotype, this is what you're saying?

Smith: I don't think there is a stereotype, no. But then, we are only talking generally. I wouldn't know what sort of people would be targeted for that sort of work.

MacLeod: And again, it wouldn't be unreasonable for the Russians, for the KGB to make use of their contacts with the trade union movement here, to make contacts within the Communist Party and the YCL, to identify and talent spot for potential agents?

Smith: I would like to say on that score, I don't believe, in my experience, that they were ever successful in doing that. Because, as I say, my evidence of, my recollections of Russians being around, or being influential in trade unions, or the YCL, or the Communist Party, was .001% or something. It was so small, I wouldn't like to say I could be aware of any way in which they'd influenced any of those organisations, in my field of interest.

MacLeod: Perhaps you misunderstood what I said. I am not suggesting they try to influence those organisations, the question was, would it be reasonable to expect them to use their contacts with trade unions?

MacLeod: And their fellow travellers within the CPGB, or other people of a left-wing persuasion?

Smith: Well, if we are talking in hypothetical terms, I suppose it might be, but I ...

Smith: … not knowing this from the inside, I can't say. I wouldn't like to say, or put words to this, to make it sound like I have experience or knowledge of these matters, because I don't.

MacLeod: So, you were really in a fairly ripe position back in the '70s. You were an active trade unionist, or involved in your trade union, you were a member of the YCL, you admit yourself it was spread over a period of 4 years, you had an interest in Russian to an extent.

Smith: The interest in Russian, as I said, I didn't use it in any way to speak to Russians.

Smith: I don't know how to speak Russian now. I don't think I ever did. I mean, it was purely an interest in the language.

Smith: I explained that, because I knew a man who was Yugoslav, who was learning Russian. And he was sharing the same room as I was, so it was natural that I should listen to what he was listening to, and he'd said, “why don't you pick this up too?” So, I tried to learn a bit, that was the only reason that, I thought, “I know a bit more about Russian than I know about French, or any of the other languages”. I don't think there's anything sinister about that. There's a lot of people who learn Russian, who have got no interest in politics, …

Smith: …and I suppose the reverse. I mean, I don't see that that makes any difference whatsoever.

MacLeod: Are you continuing to say to me, that you were not working for the KGB?

MacLeod: Yes, he was the man who recruited you back in the mid '70s, and, in fact, he was your contact right up until September '79, when he handed over to another KGB Officer, this Victor Lazin, and Lazin remained at the Embassy until, let me see, he was there, he took over from Oshchenko in terms of handling you.

MacLeod: Yes, he was expelled from the UK in August '81. But he handed over to another man, and I think he will be known to you.

Smith: Well, if he was expelled, I mean, surely that would have raised the matter? If I was supposedly talking to this man, I would have been implicated then …?

MacLeod: Now, just let me finish what I am saying. The point I am getting at is, you had Oshchenko, then Lazin, and then you had this man Anatoliy Chernyayev. I can't pronounce the name. I spell it for you, for the benefit of the tape.

Smith: I don't care what his name is, this is getting more and more absurd. I mean, these people are ...

Smith: People I don't know. I mean, it's like a rogue's gallery of mug shots. As far as I am concerned, these people mean nothing to me.

Smith: I've not said. The man I told you about, that I said I think had receding hair, I have not seen that man here.

MacLeod: Oh, the man … Right, ok. But what I am saying to you is, he was the man that took over from Lazin, you remember?

Beels: At this point Mr MacLeod has produced a photograph, which will be exhibit MM/4.

MacLeod: Well, he was an Attaché, a Labour Attaché, Third Secretary, and I believe that you probably knew him. I don't believe, I know, that he, if you like, controlled you up to or around ...

MacLeod: Anatoliy, and the surname is Chernyayev, and you will forgive my pronunciation. And you are telling me that you don't know that man?

MacLeod: Well, I can tell you that that man was expelled from here. He was a Russian Intelligence Officer, who was expelled from this country in April 1983, and he was a man ...

MacLeod: Yes, I am going back before that, when you were recruited by Oshchenko, back in the mid '70s.

MacLeod: What I am saying is, in the order of handling. Oshchenko was the man who recruited you, Lazin was the man who took over from Oshchenko. When Lazin was expelled in '81, you were handled by this man, Chernyayev.

Smith: Well, I can only say, that the man who is giving you this information is concocting it from people he knows, to make it sound like there's a long case history.

MacLeod: Why pick on Michael Smith, from Ham, who's only interested in playing the Spanish guitar and flamenco dancing, and getting on with his daily life? Why should a Russian KGB officer ...?

Smith: Let's not get it wrong. I was not playing flamenco in those days, if you are talking about the '70s. I first studied playing flamenco in 1982.

Smith: I was playing, I wasn't playing flamenco seriously until '85 or '86. So, these people, if they say I was playing flamenco in those days, it must be wrong.

MacLeod: No, I am not saying that, sorry. That was only by way of me trying to illustrate the, here you are, by your way of it, an innocent member of the public, if you like, just getting on with doing the job he's doing, whose interests ...

Smith: I don't know better, you're pronouncing it in different ways. This man who supposedly recruited me, seems to be the earliest one in the line, and you're putting this back at the time when, possibly, he would have known this man Andy Wilson, and would have implicated me through him.

MacLeod: But you were both known to Andy. Well, clearly, I mean, you knew Andy Wilson.

MacLeod: And indeed, he did, and if you remember that meeting you had down at Hampton Court, when you happened to bump into Andy Wilson.

MacLeod: On that occasion, you were out with Oshchenko at a meeting, and you bumped into Andy Wilson.

MacLeod: And you were both, you were carrying out a regular rendezvous with Oshchenko, a regular meet, not very professional where you were going to be seen, but you were clocked.

MacLeod: You were clocked by Andy Wilson, and there was concern was there not, there was concern that that might have breached your security?

Beels: Well, the tape is coming to an end. I understand Mr Jefferies, that you would like your client to take a break?

Jefferies: Obviously, yes, I am sure you are aware he has been sitting here for going on 5 hours.

Jefferies: If I can leave it, in this sense, for sufficient time to enable him to recover.

Beels: Can I just say, before I conclude this interview, is there anything you wish to add or clarify?

Beels: At the end of this interview I'll be asking you to sign the seal on the master tape. Will you do so?

Beels: And I'll give you a form. The time is 6:47 pm, and I am switching off the machine.

INTERVIEW 6 ~ TAPE 13

Beels: This interview is being tape-recorded. I am Detective Sergeant Stephen Beels, New Scotland Yard, Special Branch. The other officer present is …

MacLeod: I am Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod, Scotland Yard, Special Branch.

Jefferies: My name is Richard Jefferies, Duty Solicitor from Tuckers Solicitors.

Beels: We are in Interview Room No. 2 at Paddington Green Police Station. At the end of this interview, I will give you, Mr Smith, a form which, explaining your rights of access to a copy of the tape. The date is the 9th August 1992, and the time by my watch is 12 minutes past 9 in the evening. I must caution you still Mr Smith, you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be given in evidence. Do you understand?

Beels: You are entitled to free legal advice, and your solicitor is present with you. Is that correct/

MacLeod: Mr Smith, I would, I would like to, to begin this by recapping briefly on the trip that you, that you made to America back in 1976.

MacLeod: Now, can you just, just remind me the circumstances of that particular visit?

Smith: The circumstances of that visit were, that I knew 2 people, one in Chicago and one in Quebec, in Canada, who I wished to visit, and make use of the trip also for touring around certain cities on the East side of the States for the purposes of sightseeing, basically.

MacLeod: Um, at that time, were you actually employed by EMI, or was this before you …?

Smith: Yes, no. I, I, I think I'd been there a short period when I went on this holiday.

MacLeod: Well, I put it to you again, that that trip was in actual fact financed, paid for by the KGB.

Smith: Er, I would reject that proposition, because I know I paid for it myself, and, er, no-one, it was far, you know, I cannot imagine who else could have paid for that trip if I didn't. I bought the tickets. I, I paid for the, er, a greyhound bus pass, which I had, and all the meals ...

MacLeod: You may have paid for them directly, but you may have received sums of money, which enabled you to.

MacLeod: Right, Ok. Well, that, let's, let's talk about other visits to other countries then. You've, you've spoken about your visit to the Soviet Union, you've spoken about your visit to the United States and Canada, and also to Vienna. What other European countries have you visited?

Smith: I visited France, Germany, Italy, Greece, Yugoslavia, Turkey, if you consider that is, um, European? I visited, er, Bulgaria, just for 2 days, I was just travelling across it, and I visited, er, Portugal, Spain and Andorra. Er, I visited Holland. I visited Belgium. I think that's about it, actually, I can't think of any other countries.

MacLeod: When, when I used earlier the expression, or the abbreviation DLB, did you know what that stood for?

Smith: I've not heard the abbreviation. I've heard of, you said, Dead Letter Box. I heard that, and I understand now that's what you mean, but I've never heard it used as an abbreviation like that, no.

MacLeod: Well, I put it to you, that you, you would have known what a dead letter box is, whether by abbreviation, or otherwise, because you had been tasked on certain occasions, by the KGB, to actually clear some dead letter boxes in Europe.

Smith: That's not true. What do, what do you mean by this? I didn't quite understand …

MacLeod: You, well, what I'm saying is, in order to give you, or test your loyalty, you were tasked to clear, to empty, to pick up messages from dead letter boxes, in other European countries.

Smith: Well, I, I, you know I reject that, that proposition. I don't, er, I don't see why you, what, what I could have done in that way. I mean, it's not …

MacLeod: So, right, Ok. So, what you're saying is, that you've never carried out any work for the Russian Intelligence Service?

Smith: Well, I, if you want me to reiterate. I, I've not worked for the KGB, and it is, to my knowledge, I've not known any KGB people.

MacLeod: Ok. Let's talk about the time you worked for the EMI Medical Section.

MacLeod: Did you ever bring any documents, or make any sketches about any of the work you carried out for EMI Medical Section?

Smith: No, not, not. Because I, I didn't actually do anything very technical there. I mean, there were people designing and carrying out technical work. I was a Quality Assurance man, who was looking at testing of equipment, again, and software. I was testing software to see that it worked correctly. I, I will admit that I took, um, one document home, which was the EMI Medical Quality Assurance Manual, but that was for the purpose of my professional interests in developing systems for other companies, but it's, it's not actually a secret document, and it's only for my benefit, nobody else's.

Smith: The, the, I worked on a brain scanner, and a body scanner, and there was a new scanner being developed while I was there, but I think I left there before it ever came to fruition. Er, my interest on these scanners were in terms of software and hardware.

MacLeod: Because, I put it to you, that you also provided the KGB with unclassified information concerning the scanners?

Smith: No, no. I reject that proposition as well. I, I, frankly, I, I don't think they, knowing their, their situation in electronics, I've been to electronics shows, where I've seen some of the equipment they have on display. I don't think they would, frankly, be capable of building a thing like a brain or a body scanner that would work, and, in fact, I, I do remember they purchased one from EMI Medical. I think there was one in Leningrad, maybe one in Moscow, scanners from EMI Medical. So, they had the equipment there, and they wouldn't have needed any information I could give them. They could strip it down if necessary, so, I mean, it was, it was not in any way something that I could have given them, that they couldn't buy themselves.

MacLeod: In describing your, sort of, early relationship with him, he has explained, if you like, the trade craft, the way in which you were trained to make this, sort of, monthly meets, normally around the Kingston area. He tells us that sometimes, you were, you would go for a meal. It was he who directed you, or instructed you, how to use one telephone box to pick up instructions, and be redirected to another, where you would receive further instructions for the rendezvous point.

MacLeod: Well, I think you know exactly what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, that in the same fashion as you set out yesterday, to take a telephone call at a local telephone box. You were awaiting instructions.

MacLeod: Without labouring the point, and I've no wish to over that again, but we did cover this ground. You did hear the tape, we did see you leave the address yesterday, we did see you in the vicinity of the telephone box, and, in fact, we saw you in the first telephone box, and I hope to very shortly produce photographic evidence in support of this. So, what basically, what I'm saying is, I am not bluffing here, I'm telling you what we know to be fact. You denied that you were anywhere near these telephone boxes.

Smith: I did not deny that. I'm sorry, I don't believe I said I denied that.

Smith: Sorry, could if we could go back to the point you were, seem to be making, that I knew a guy called George, who had phoned me up. And I thought the main point of the conversation was that I didn't know a George, and you seemed to think I did, and, er ...

MacLeod: Well, I was asking. I mean, it's only reasonable I should put that question to you, do you know a George?

MacLeod: Who we know telephoned you, um, and who could only be referring in the telephone conversation to Victor.

Smith: Well, with all due respects, you've mentioned 3 or 4 Victors to me now, and ...

Smith: If, if you were talking about a Victor. I mean, I think, if, if it was not, er, a surname wasn't used, then we could be talking about any 4, 3 or 4 Victors?

MacLeod: No. But you told me, I think earlier on, you didn't know any Victors?

Smith: The, the, the Victor you're referring to, on this, this tape that you've got, and I don't know where you got that tape from, because I didn't record that message. The, as I remember, it was just Victor, there was no surname mentioned. Now, you're telling me now, that there were 3, at least 3, I think, other Victors.

MacLeod: There, there were 2 Victors, that I mentioned during the interviews.

MacLeod: Both of, both of whom were your handlers. We're talking first about Victor Oshchenko, and Victor Lazin.

Smith: So, which Victor are we talking about, because I think that's quite important?

MacLeod: I believe, I believe the reference is to Victor Oshchenko, and the reason I believe that is because Victor Oshchenko has defected, and it would have been in your interests to have been aware of this.

Smith: Well, if, if it was in my interest, perhaps I should have been, but I, I, I don't see why I should need to be aware of …

Smith: … what goes on, on the other side of the world, or it doesn't affect me in any way as far as I can see?

MacLeod: Well, to have left your house at, shortly after 9 o'clock, on, on a Sunday morning ...

MacLeod: I do beg your pardon, on a Saturday morning. To have left your house at that time of the morning, to go to a meet with a man that you hadn't previously met, at least so you tell me. To go to, for a meet with a man you hadn't previously met, with little prompting, as you could hear from that tape-recording. You, you knew exactly who they were talking about.

MacLeod: But you understood the instructions, where you were supposed to go, and you did not hesitate, even as much to ask the caller for fuller identifying details about himself. You took it at face value, as a meeting arranged by a friend of Victor, or if not a friend of Victor, somebody who knew of Victor's predicament, or not so much a predicament for Victor, more of a predicament for you.

Smith: I, I do not see how that can be construed from that conversation. Why should I think that there was any reason to be concerned. You're, you're making it sound like …

Smith: How, he, how he would know, er, that he should phone me? I, I don't know.

Smith: Well then, why should he be concerned about my welfare? If, if he's being …

MacLeod: Well, we'll call this a, a, terminate this interview, I think, because of, um, if you feel that you want …

Smith: Well, if you can answer some straight forward questions, I don't like getting involved in these mind games, I'm sorry.

Jefferies: I do feel it's appropriate for my client to make sense … I would like to call a halt.

MacLeod: I do, I quite agree. I would rather call an end to this interview now. It's, er … can you just.

Beels: It's 9:21 pm. I'm concluding this interview. Is there anything else you wish to add or clarify about?

Beels: I will be asking you to sign the seal of the master tape. Will you do so?

Beels: You already have the form in front of you, explaining your rights of access to the tape. And as I said, the time is 9:21. I am switching off the machine.

Beels: This interview is being tape-recorded. I am Detective Sergeant Stephen Beels, Special Branch, New Scotland Yard. The other officer present is …

MacLeod: I am Detective Superintendent Malcolm MacLeod, from Special Branch at New Scotland Yard.

Jefferies: My name is Richard Jefferies, a solicitor from Tuckers Solicitors.

Beels: We are in Interview Room No. 2, at Paddington Green Police Station. At the end of this interview, Mr Smith, I will give you a form explaining your rights of access of a copy of this tape. The date is the 10th August, and the time is 4:57 pm by my watch. I must caution you, Mr Smith, you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so, but what you say may be given in evidence.

Beels: You are entitled to free legal advice, and your solicitor is present with you. Is that correct?

Beels: I understand you have been given the opportunity to exercise recently and you declined, is that correct?

Beels: You are also continuing to refuse to take any food whilst in detention, is that correct?

Beels: I understand you have been examined by a doctor as well, is that correct sir?

MacLeod: Right, thank you Mr Smith. I'd like to begin, first of all, by clarifying certain points that I raised in the previous interview, before I come on to the main subject of this particular interview, and I want to go back over the KGB contacts that we believe you to have had over the years. You deny knowing a man called Victor Oshchenko?

Smith: Yes, I don't know the name, I deny knowing them. The pictures you showed me, if that's the people, I deny knowing those people, yes.

Smith: Anatoliy? Yes, definitely. I could never pronounce the name, even if I'd met him, I think.

MacLeod: So, you deny ever having had any contact with the Russians, or the Russian Embassy?

MacLeod: You deny ever having any contacts with any Russian Intelligence Officer?

MacLeod: You deny ever having contacts with any persons who were Russians, who may have had an intelligence role?

Smith: That's a bit more difficult, because I, as I said before in the earlier interviews, I had met some Russians, in a social context. I had no way of knowing if those people were, so-called KGB agents, or who worked for the Russian Embassy. It's possible, but my involvement with them was so brief, and purely social, that I feel there could have been no consequence, calling it a KGB encounter.

MacLeod: I am going to show you another photograph, a black and white photograph of a man, I'll spell it … Oleg Krasakov. Have you seen that man before?

Smith: Again, and I asked you before, could you give me some specific time or place?

MacLeod: Yes, I'll tell you that that man was your KGB controller up to September 1985.

MacLeod: Right, I am going to change the subject now. I am going to talk about your hobbies, or one of your hobbies, computers.

Smith: I've worked on it, yes. I wouldn't call it a hobby as such. It's a, it's something that I find interesting.

Smith: I've used it for typing letters, minutes of meetings at work. I have used it for playing games with. I've got some musical equipment that goes with it. Is this relevant?

MacLeod: Yes, well it's relevant to the point I am going to try to establish. How much did you pay for your computer?

Smith: I can't remember the exact figure, but I think it was about £4,000 I think.

Smith: No, it's not, a friend of mine has got a computer that's worth more than that. No, it was a big decision, I thought about it for about 2 years before I finally purchased it.

Smith: I don't remember the exact figure, it may have been less than that, I can't remember.

MacLeod: Did you not send off for a, or did you not ask for a quotation from the company TSC for …?

Smith: That wasn't for the computer. That was a package deal that they were offering me.

MacLeod: I see. I'm going to show you exhibit JS/39, it contains 2 pieces of paper, one of which is the quotation from the company TSC. Is that the quotation that the company gave you for the computer, and the computer equipment?

Smith: I think that's it, yes. I don't think that's what I actually bought, not exactly, I don't think.

Smith: For the actual computer? We are talking about which part of the computer, the CPU, the monitor, keyboard?

MacLeod: Well, yes. You tell me what you bought, in terms of, in relation to the computer?

Smith: I bought a monitor, I bought a CPU, and I bought a keyboard. I think that was, comprised what you could call a computer.

Smith: I can't be specific, I think it was around, around £4,000 I believe.

MacLeod: Well, I am going to show you an exhibit now, RR/1, which contains an invoice from the company TSC, a statement of account from the company TSC, which shows that you paid over £10,000.

Smith: I did not receive that bit of paper. That is not, I have never received that document.

MacLeod: Well, I can show you the date, the dates on which the payments were made, the 5th February 1991.

Smith: Sorry, the lights in the way, I can't see. I am convinced that I did not receive that document. They did send me invoices, but it was not, not that piece of paper.

Smith: Well, I, let's put it this way. I do not remember receiving that document. If I did, and it got bundled away with other paperwork, maybe I did, but I do not remember receiving that document. I did receive other documents, which were not in that format, they were in an invoice format. That document is not the one I remember receiving.

Smith: Maybe I did receive it, but I am not going to be, I am not going to deny it, but on the other hand, I am not going to say I definitely received it, because to my knowledge I don't remember that particular piece of paper.

MacLeod: Do you agree, that that's the amount that you paid for your computer equipment?

Smith: We are not talking about a computer here, we are talking about extra equipment.

MacLeod: But my question to you is, what computer and related equipment did you actually buy?

Smith: It's a mixture of a computer and some other equipment, which is useful for musical reproduction, which …

Smith: … is what this company specialises in. I mean, I went to this company to see if they could provide me with the sort of equipment I was looking for.

MacLeod: Right, Ok. Fair enough. The main point of my asking you this, is that I want to establish how you paid for this equipment, whatever the equipment might have been. Whether it was a computer, or other component parts, in connection with this music hobby of yours. I see that it included a cheque for £4,000.

MacLeod: and you paid a small amount of £138, that was on 26th February 1992. What I am interested in is this cash payment of £4,800. Do you agree that that's how that was paid?

Smith: It's my recollection it was. I, it's going back a while, I don't remember all the transactions I make.

Smith: Well, I have a number of accounts. I have 2 cheque book accounts, and I have an Abbey National account.

MacLeod: Can you tell me what, so you have got 2 cheque book accounts, with which bank?

MacLeod: Abbey National. Now, I have to make it absolutely clear to you, we will have access to your bank statements and building society statements within the next 24 hours. Can I expect to see a withdrawal for that amount of £4,800, from one of your accounts?

Smith: I can't say it would come out of one account. I collected the money from sources, and had savings. I always like to keep a certain amount of cash at home.

MacLeod: Yes, well, when you say sources, you also get some money from sources, what sources?

MacLeod: Can we ask you that question again. That amount £4,800, where did you find that money?

MacLeod: Yes, well, you tell me it's yours, but you paid £4,800 in cash. That's a lot of money, by any standards, to pay in a lump sum?

Smith: People spend a lot more than that on cars, and I don't lead a particularly, how do you say, a riotous lifestyle. I don't go out very much, I don't spend a lot of money on clothes, or the sort of things that other people do.

Smith: I felt that paying cash was a better way of sorting out quickly, that I could get the goods as soon as possible.

Beels: Even though you paid on previous occasions by cheque and credit card, and on this particular occasion …?

Smith: I found it was the only way of quickly organising my affairs to, because they wanted a payment up front. I, …

Beels: But you've already said, that you had to get that money from various sources?

Smith: That's right, otherwise it means selling shares, and the sort of things that involve time and problems for me. So, I decided to pay for it in a way that would quickly achieve the result.

Beels: We are just looking, what about 18 months ago, that payment, about 18 months?

Beels: A bit longer, Ok. You must remember paying out that much in cash. I mean, it's not the sort of thing you do every week, or every month, is it?

Beels: And so you went along to this particular premises, The Synthesizer Company …

Smith: I'd collected it over a period of a couple of weeks, from the sources I had. We, I mean …

MacLeod: But tell me the sources. This is what I am asking you, tell me what the sources are that you've got, or you had at that time?

Smith: Well, it's difficult to say isn't it. I mean, everybody keeps accounts in their own way. I mean, I like to have a reasonable amount of cash available to me at all times, for emergencies. I've also found that keeping cash aside, for those sort of purchases, always is a better way of getting a better discount, and these people did offer me a better discount for putting the money up front. That's the reason I discussed it with them, and another company, to see who could come up with the best deal.

MacLeod: I can't see that there would be any difference, in the discount that you'd be given, between cheque and cash

Smith: Well, the people I was dealing with wanted the money before they would undertake any work.

MacLeod: £4,800. If we go to this company, and it's not that long back and they will probably remember, and we will be going to this company. We will want to know just exactly what it was that you purchased for that, and what special arrangements …

Smith: If you will discuss it with that company TSC. I am quite happy for you to do that.

MacLeod: I am putting it to you, that that money, that money was given to you in a lump sum, as a cash payment.

MacLeod: Yes. That was part of the monies that had been given to you, over a period of time by the KGB?

MacLeod: Well, I think your bank statements, or particularly your building society statements, might reveal one or two interesting transactions.

Smith: Well, I'm quite, I have nothing to hide in my bank statements, if you want to look back over them. I'd like to add, I am not a particularly organised person when it comes to finances, and I occasionally find I've got more money in my account than I should have, because I don't check it every week. But as far as I am concerned, if I've got the money, I spend it, and ...

MacLeod: Yes, well, you've got £4,800. If you've got it, you spend it, and yet you didn't on this occasion, you must have saved up for some considerable time to get £4,800 in cash. So, you weren't really spending your money as it was coming in.

Smith: I told you, I explained before, I thought, that I'm not extravagant in other things.

Smith: That's not it at all. The reason I'm not extravagant is because I've always been quite thrifty throughout my life. You can ask my mother, we used to have arguments when I was a child about spending money, and I've always been very careful about money, I hoard it more than most people, and ...

Smith: People hoard different things. Well, why shouldn't I have my own peculiarities. Look at Ken Dodd, it speaks for itself, that. It's just, I am just saying that …

MacLeod: I don't believe you, I don't believe you when you say that you keep this kind of money lying around the house.

Smith: I didn't say I kept that sort of money lying around. I said I accumulated it.

Smith: Some of it. Well, you'll have to, I cannot, as I say, I am not particularly good at accounting for the way I work on my bank statements. They tend to be rather haphazard, and I, about 2 or 3 years, I work it out and Say: “Ah, I've got a thousand pounds too much in my bank account” and I've done that a couple of times in the last 5 years. That's just the way I am. As long as my statements come through, and show I am in the black, then I don't give a damn.

MacLeod: You know, as well as I do, that this was a payment from the KGB, and in line with their instructions, for you to use the money that they paid you in an unobvious way. This would be consistent with that advice.

MacLeod: Because you've bought a large item here, and you've spent far more than the average individual in the street would spend on a computer.

Smith: I am not an average individual, I earn a lot more than the average individual.

MacLeod: Are you saying then, even for somebody who's earning perhaps more than the average individual, that would go out and spend £10,000 on computer equipment?

Smith: Why not? I've been saving up over a period of years for that. It's something I wanted a long time ago. It's just at that particular point in time, it was a technological breakthrough in this music field, and I was quite excited to get in at the beginning. And when I went for a demonstration of the equipment, I was quite impressed by it and I thought, “yes this is what I want, and this is what I am prepared to spend that amount of money on”. I mean, people go and buy Porsches, which are far more expensive. I think the enjoyment I can get from that piece of equipment is worth that amount of money to me.

MacLeod: I come back to the point I am making. If you had accumulated money over a period of time, from sources as you describe it, I am yet to be convinced what the sources are? You would have …

MacLeod: But you would expect that money to be put into a building society, or into the bank …?

MacLeod: So, you are saying that you kept £4,800 in the house, just by the way?

MacLeod: Right, tell me what you're saying then, make it clear so that there's no ...

Smith: Well, some of that money would have been in the house, some of the money I would have withdrawn from the building society.

Smith: You'd have to check my accounts, because I, as I say, I don't look at it every day. In fact, if I think can make a point in time when I think “yes, I've got that amount of money that I need”. I withdraw it, and I spend it.

MacLeod: I put it to you, that is one of the lump payments that the KGB paid you, for information that you were passing on to them?

Smith: Look, if I had anything to hide, why would I spend that amount of money in that way? I mean, it's just …

MacLeod: Because you were flush. You were flush with money. And that was one of the reasons that you decided, or agreed to work for them. You were receiving regular payments over a period of time.

MacLeod: You know that to be true. £4,800, £4,800 for the average individual is a lot of money. But apparently not to you.

Smith: I think we have got to go back, and look at my situation. I live in a one bedroom flat with a low mortgage. I have an old car. My wife works, and has a fairly good job, and she's self-supporting, and I don't have to buy her anything. I don't spend much money on myself, and this is my perk to myself, if you like. I mean, what's the point of me saving the money for a rainy day only, I mean, I need to spend money on things that I want to do, and this is one of the things that I decided to buy. Now, I can't believe that you could accuse anybody, who has a specialist hobby that might cost some money, that they should not pursue their hobbies to the extent that they feel able. I felt able.

Smith: I felt able to do this, to buy this equipment, to fulfil a wish I had to get in on this particular field of technology, and at that point in time it culminated in everything happening at once. The technology was there at that particular period, within a couple of months of this visit I made for the demonstration. It was the time when the equipment was just coming on the market, and I thought “if I don't buy it now, I perhaps I never will”, because we were thinking of moving, and I thought, once I get a higher mortgage I won't buy it, I've got to go in for it now. And I think when a hobby is so important to me as this one. I had a lot of arguments with my wife about buying it, actually, because she said, “do you really want to buy this equipment”, and I said “yes it's what I want”.

Smith: Well, of course, I didn't tell her how much I spent on it. I told her a lot less. As any husband would do if he wants to ...

Smith: No. She would be curious as to why I want to spend as much as that, on something that she didn't consider was all that useful to her.

MacLeod: Of course, it's the right of individuals to spend their money as they see fit. But the point I am getting at, and you still haven't answered the question, you said that you had that money from sources? Money that …

MacLeod: Indeed it's your personal affair, but is it not odd that you should keep that large amount of money outside a building society?

Smith: Yes, it might be odd to some people, but it's odd to people who think it's odd, but to me it's not odd.

MacLeod: It's patently clear to people, who know that this type of activity you've been up to, that this is consistent with the payments that you've been receiving over a period of time.

MacLeod: That might have been a lump sum, it might have been an accumulation of monies paid to you, but that money, that money was money that was paid to you by the Russians for information that you were providing them with.

Smith: If you think that, that's your affair. I am just reiterating that, that money was mine, I collected it. I got it from sources which were quite legitimate, and, er ...

MacLeod: Well, you say quite legitimate. What sources, you still haven't told me what sources?

MacLeod: So, would I expect them to see your bill, when we examine your accounts? We shall be about to get some indication of your spending, and how much you are putting away.

Smith: I am sure you can. I mean, it's there, you can't hide bank accounts. I mean, that's what they're there for.

MacLeod: Well, obviously, we'll be coming to that tomorrow when we have got the necessary details from the banks and the building societies. And I am sure that will reveal some interesting sort of anomalies, to put it mildly.

Right, I want to come back onto your trips abroad. Have you ever been to Portugal?

Smith: I was on holiday. I took about three to three and a half weeks holiday. It was ...

Smith: I went to Oporto, which is in the North, and travelled down the coast a way, and back into Spain. It was just to find what Portugal's like, I hadn't been there before.

Beels: This tape is coming to an end. I am about to switch the machine off. The time is 5:24 pm.

Beels: The time is now 5:26 pm. This is the second tape. You are still under caution.

MacLeod: Mr Smith, can we continue with the question I posed just a few moments ago, regarding your trip to Portugal back in 1977?

Smith: Portugal. Ok, well, Portugal wasn't really my main destination, it was Spain.

Smith: Ok, Portugal. I entered the country at, I think, the Northern-most point, I can't remember the name of the town, but it is quite a rocky or hilly road that runs down to Oporto from there. As I remember, the first day I was there, it was travelling between the border with Spain and Oporto. I stayed in Oporto, I think 2 nights, at a camp site there. I then travelled down to, I think, I can't remember the name of the town. I think it began with "C", like Colomar, or something like that. It was about halfway between Oporto and Lisbon, along those, travelling down the coast road, and then I went inland and back into Spain.

MacLeod: And can you tell me what, to the best of your recollection, what you did on those 2 days?

Smith: Well, it was sightseeing, I'd never been to Oporto before. I was quite attracted by the old nature of the town, the cobbled streets, lack of traffic lights. I went to an evening session, a Fado evening which was laid on for tourists in a restaurant there. I got involved in some sort of street festival, in one of the back streets around by where this restaurant was, on the way back. But most of the day was spent in just looking around the town, taking photographs, and ...

MacLeod: Were you ever on your own at any time, during the time you were there in Oporto?

Smith: I don't think so, no, because we had to drive from the camp site. I think we drove from the camp site to the town on the, I think the 2 days we were there, so we went together.

MacLeod: Was there nothing in particular you can remember at that visit in Oporto?

Smith: In what way? I mean, it was as anybody might do around London, I was just walking around, going into a few bars to sample the local beer. The sort of things any tourist would do. I didn't do anything unusual.

MacLeod: You can't remember any other sort of events surrounding that visit in Portugal can you?

MacLeod: I am putting it to you, that you carried out some work for the KGB, in clearing what is known as dead letter boxes.

Smith: … I didn't actually know Portugal very well, and as I explained, that's the reason I wanted to include it on my trip around Spain, was because Portugal is a place I wanted to visit. But the time I spent there was relatively short and uneventful, apart from the, the sort of things that I did say, in the evening going to the Fado evening, and looking around the Cathedral there.

MacLeod: Well, why should Victor Oshchenko say that you carried out work for them in Oporto, or in Portugal?

Smith: … I went to were Oporto, and places I just passed through. I mean, there was no reason for anybody to think there was anything suspicious about it. I didn't meet anybody, we met some Portuguese people in - a daughter of a doctor I think she was, who spoke quite good English - in Oporto, and we discussed, because we were singing songs around a bar late in the evening. They wanted to sing "My old man's a dustman" - you'll find the photographs in my flat - I am actually playing the guitar, with a couple of gypsies behind me, which will prove that I was there that night. But that's the sort of thing.

MacLeod: That doesn't prove, that doesn't prove that you weren't carrying out some espionage work on ...

Smith: There we are, coming back to this negative sort of proof. I cannot prove I didn't, no. But I am asserting, there was no reason for anything suspicious about my visit to Portugal.

Smith: I did not use one telephone box, or the things that hang on the wall in Portugal, no. I had no reason to. In fact, in the whole of that trip, in Spain and France, I don't remember using a telephone at all.

Smith: No. I had no reason to on that particular trip, I did not use a telephone.

Smith: As much as I would like to, because I'd left my girlfriend at home, and I was very much missing her by the time we got to Portugal. I would have rung her up, but I didn't do that.

Smith: In what way, I mean, because I have written to him in the past. We, actually, are not really on good terms now, because there was a rift between my wife and his present wife, and I think, in fact, they turned their back on me, because I've tried to contact him a couple of times and he doesn't respond, so I think he's lost interest in my friendship.

Smith: I knew him because he was a friend of this man Phil Cutler, who we mentioned some time ago. And he wanted to share the house we were living in, in Kingston, as a way of getting away from home. Because he was living with his father, and wasn't very happy with that set-up.

Smith: It was that year, because we moved into that house that year, it was sometime in the summer.

Smith: No, I wouldn't have said so. He was rather, sort of an easy going sort of person really. He was more of an artistic person, he was very interested in painting and drawing. In fact, one of his biggest works was an almost life, what, a 6 foot high head of Lenin, which he submitted to the YCL, as something to shove behind meetings, and such like.

MacLeod: So, if we made enquiries of, or we spoke to this man, then you're telling me that he would ...

MacLeod: … verify what you are saying, that you were in each other's company at all times, and …?

Smith: I have no doubt of that, because we were living side by side, driving around in the same car, eating in the same restaurants. There's no way he would have not known that I had used a telephone box, or done something suspicious.

MacLeod: He probably wouldn't have considered it suspicious, but anyway. This man, when did you last see him, did you say, you …?

Smith: I last saw him, it was over the Christmas holiday in, I have to think of the year. It would be 1979, about the end of 1979, Christmas holiday. That was the last time I saw him.

Smith: I rang him up. No, I think it was longer ago than that, it might even have been August, I rang up, and ...

Smith: Yes, I got his wife, who gave me a bit of small talk, and said: "Oh, yeah, he's out at the moment". I rang back, I think it was a week later, and she said: "Oh, he's had to take somebody to the hospital". And I got the feeling, now he hasn't rung me back, so I know that he doesn't really want to know me. So, …

MacLeod: Can you tell me something about your work at GEC, Hirst Research Centre?

Smith: My work at GEC Hirst Research Centre has been totally about Quality Assurance, and mainly auditing of different projects there, from the Quality Assurance point of view.

MacLeod: And, is there anything specifically that you had responsibility, any specific project that you were responsible for?

Smith: No, no. I just looked at whatever was on, we had a schedule, of auditing nearly everything once a year. I think nearly everything, but some things didn't get looked at. And it was to look at a project's approach to record keeping, to project planning, the sort of things that concern the management role of running a project on research, or development.

MacLeod: Yes. Would it be true to say then, your job as the audit control manager gave you an overview of a lot of the projects that were going on in the company?

Smith: No, no. I didn't get deeply, because most of the audits would occupy no more than an hour and a half, sometimes only an hour, they were very short, as we were looking at little tiny pieces of the company, maybe only 3 people in the whole project. So, there was no point in spending hours discussing it. So, we just discussed, we had a pro forma actually, a pro forma of going through asking questions, about such things as how do they plan their work, how do they create work instructions, records, calibrate the equipment they use. All the things that come under AQAP-1, which was what we were supposed to be working to.

Smith: I would say not. The only classified project, that I was aware of, that was known to be classified, was in a Lab that I didn't go into very often. I didn't actually have any dealings with that.

Smith: That Lab, why, do you want me to tell you the name of that Lab? It was …

Smith: It was called Device Applications Lab, and it was run by a man called Arthur Dyer, and they carried out certain work on crystals for oscillators, which, I know some of these crystals went to the Trident project in the States, but that's all I know about it. I did not know anything about those devices, that was out of my sight.

MacLeod: And if you were the audit control manager, how come you didn't have oversight of what that was going on there?

Smith: No, well, I'll explain. We had an ex-MoD man called Bill Tatham, who is now retired. He's about 70 years old, and this was one of his fields, I believe, was crystals, and that type of project, and GEC took him on as a consultant, specifically to work on projects like that. And he did the audits on the Trident work, and reported back on the forms, which I put into the system, the audit records, and recorded the deficiencies found. That in no way involved the work itself, it was purely about what we, something wasn't calibrated, or, the sort of thing which I was responsible for.

MacLeod: So, there was, is it right to say that the company carried out contract work for the government?

Smith: Oh yes, it did, yes. But much less so than it used to. I mean, there has been this, as you probably know, the change in the role of submitting research projects to companies like GEC, and it's fallen back to a very limited, well I think the MoD hardly support any of the work at Hirst Research Centre now. At one time they used to fund complete projects, but now they just part fund projects in a collaborative sort of venture, with other companies, or other agencies.

Smith: I can't remember. I think it might have been 1987. I don't remember exactly, because it just came round, and I was called down to an office and asked to sign it.

MacLeod: Have you ever taken any of the work home with you, away from the premises?

Smith: Well, sometimes to, the audit work I was doing, to write it up and to prepare it for meetings, and that sort of thing. I have taken a few things home, which perhaps I shouldn't have done, which is partly professional interest - my future work - that I can use as a guide for how to organise things, if ever I work in that sort of situation again.

Smith: Well, procedures, procedural documents, I don't know how to be more specific, just documents. I mean, they were all sorts of documents, bits of paper, I wouldn't say there were vast quantities. I mean, we are not talking about suitcases full here.

MacLeod: Did you have authority to take these documents out of the building?

Smith: No, I don't think it was classified at all. I think it was just because it was company confidential, and most companies have this rule that you shouldn't take documents out of the company. But I know for a fact, that a lot of people do, and it is for the reason that I'm saying, that it is professionally of interest to those people in future work. Not that they would regurgitate it to another company, but that they would use it as a basis for how a certain type of discipline could be organised and managed.

MacLeod: I mean, if it was company policy not to take material or documents out of the building, or out of the premises, is that not because it was classified?

Smith: I wouldn't say it was because it was classified, no. I mean, I don't think, I think I have actually by mistake taken some classified documents, restricted documents, which I intended to dispose of, but they were, um. I'll explain. The last day I was there, at Hirst Research Centre, it was only a week and a bit ago, I had a very busy day. It was a Friday, and there was a lot of activity about me leaving, and our Departmental Secretary was also being made redundant on the same day. I was going down to the pub to say farewell to them. I was being asked to say goodbye to people, individuals who had given a collection, they gave me a present. All this sort of thing was going on, and I was trying to finish off. I had to write a letter to a man in Manchester, and tidy up everything on my desk before I left, and in a sort of panic at the end of the day, I had a pile of stuff I couldn't sort out, so I just dumped it into a bag and took it home with me and I found - I was going through it last week - and found a restricted document, which I thought I shouldn't have had, but I did intend to dispose of it.

Smith: Well, it was, I think, it was an old document of no interest to anybody now, I guess.

Smith: Well, I could do, but I think that's embarrassing, actually, to have to go back and say, well look, I took this by mistake. I mean, I didn't want anybody to think the wrong impression of me.

MacLeod: So, you wouldn't want them to think that you'd taken it by mistake, and to get the wrong impression of you? I see.

Smith: I judged that that document was of no use to them, because the work had changed. I knew those documents had been updated anyway, so it didn't really affect their work, and ...

Beels: It wasn't really a decision for you to make though, was it surely, it was a company decision?

Smith: Ok. I admit then, I have made an error, an error of judgement, and I shouldn't have done that, I should have organised myself so I wasn't in a mad rush at the last. I am a last minute manager, I'm afraid, and I do tend to leave things to the end, and it was the last Friday I was there and I had to leave the company that day, and I thought, well, "my God, I've got to get this desk clear before I go". And there was, you can ask my boss, he used, he was complaining over about 3 or 4 years that my desk was in a mess, and I am just not a very organised person I'm afraid.

MacLeod: We'll come back to that in just a moment. While we are talking about this particular period, during the time you were working at GEC.

MacLeod: Not necessarily in the course of your work, but did you met any Russians?

Smith: I understood, from, I don't remember where I heard it, I understood that there was a Russian working at Hirst Research Centre at one time. Whether he was someone …

MacLeod: No, I'm not talking about somebody working at Hirst. I am talking about, did you at any time, during the time you were working at GEC Hirst, did you ever meet any Russians?

Smith: Not to my knowledge, no. I say, unless it was one of these chance meetings.

MacLeod: I think you really ought to think about that question again. Did you ever …

MacLeod: Just reflect on it. Did you ever meet any Russians during the time you were employed …?

Smith: I am trying to reflect on it, but I can't think of an occasion where I could, um, could say yes. I mean, I say don't know, if you think that there is some possibility that I've met a Russian, I don't think I have.

MacLeod: See, why should I believe you, when you answer that question like that. When I know that you were lying yesterday about the phone call, that you received at your flat on Saturday morning?

Smith: I'm, the phone call business came at a very early stage in this discussion ...

Smith: … and I think, at that stage it wasn't the right time to discuss it.

MacLeod: But I can't see why you consider it wasn't the right time, why was it not?

Smith: Because you weren't laying your cards on the table. I wanted to know a bit more factual basis for your case, before I started answering questions.