Updated 30 July 2003
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:11:41 -0700
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Waterstones denial - Allegation that Waterstones "flags" certain book enquiries to
"law enforcement"
From: <watching_them_watching_us@hushmail.com>
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I emailed Waterstones on the 21st, pointing them at
http://cryptome.org/uk-book-fear.htm
It seems that Waterstones are denying that they "flag" book enquiries
to the police etc (c.f. attached). I tend to believe them.
regards
Mark
Watching Them, Watching Us
UK Public CCTV Surveillance Regulation Campaign
http://www.spy.org.uk
cctv@spy.org.uk
We hope that you will support our position, that CCTV technology has
its place as part of properly run and funded security schemes, but that
there should be strict, legally enforcable laws, with criminal penalties,
applied throughout the country, to prevent potential abuse and to protect
individual privacy.
- ---------------------------------------
From: "Newman, Laura" <Laura.Newman@waterstones.co.uk>
To: "'watching_them_watching_us@hushmail.com'" <watching_them_watching_us@hushmail.com>
Subject: FW: Allegation that Waterstones "flags" certain book enquiries
to "law enforcement"
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:09:48 +0100
Dear Mark,
Thank you for email of 21st July 2003.
Please be assured we have absolutely no systems in place and have never
had any intentions of passing details of our customers on to an authority
of the nature you describe.
I am concerned if staff have given you information to the contrary, and
should you wish to supply us with further details we would of course
investigate.
Our position on censorship At Waterstone's is that we do not make decisions
on whether or not to censor books. We will, however, withdraw books
from sale if requested to do so by either the publisher or the police.
I hope that this clarifies our position, and that this matter will not
deter you from shopping at Waterstone's in the future.
Yours sincerely,
Laura Newman
Customer Services Manager
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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:06:34 +0100
From: D
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Re: Secrets of Computer Espionage
On looking at cryptome.org/uk-book-fear.htm, I see that someone wrote:
> Secondly, the procedure here: There is a list of books, and these
> books are not kept on the shelves of the major bookstore chains in
> Britain. Among these books might be "Mein Kampf", "The Communist
> Manifesto" or "Applied Cryptography".
I know for a fact that all three are sold openly and off the shelf. I
bought all three like that in the last couple of years, and I just
checked a local bookshop, and they're *all* on the shelves.
Updated 29 July 2003
From: P. To: <jya@pipeline.com> Subject: UK book flagging Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:39:25 +0100 A couple of things re. the UK book flagging correspondence. There doesn't seem to be any problem getting hold of the Macnamara book in bookshops. (Not in this part of London, anyway). Takes a few weeks but then it's not exactly a stock item. There is a flagging procedure at the British Library (the main national library - equivalent of the Library of Congress, I suppose). While doing some research into certain British army units some years back (for anyone who knows the territory, this was at the old Bloomsbury British Museum site, before it moved to Euston) I was told by a librarian that the some items are 'flagged', in the sense that details of the applicant reader are passed to the part-time MI5 liaison officer attached to the Library. (A routine practice in most major British national institutions, e.g. BBC and the Bank of England. Usually a sinecure for an old hand nearing retirement.). She didn't know what the criteria were. I was asking for back issues of several magazines: 'Mars and Minerva', journal of the Special Air Service (Brit special forces) 'Rose and Laurel', journal of the Brit army Intelligence Corps 'Wire', journal of the Royal Signal Corps (which does tactical SIGINT and sub-contracts for GCHQ). Feel free to publish if this is of interest. ----- From: xxx To: jya@pipeline.com Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 06:06:27 -0400 A number of years ago I was browsing at Blackwells bookstore (100 Charing Cross Road, London). One one of the tables near the front of the shop were several copies of "Secret Power" by Nicky Hager, a new book about New Zealand's participation in the UKUSA network. The book was then new. I wrote down the details to look it up later. A few months later I returned to the same shop and tried to find it on the shelves. When I did not find it, a clerk offered to look it up in their inventory system. She checked by author and by title, but said there was no record of the book. She said the system would have a record of any book they had previously had in stock. She offered to special order it, but I did not want to wait so I said no. I found it all very curious at the time. They originally thought it was interesting enough to put on a display table near the front of the shop, but when I came back a few months later they seemed to have no record of it. I do not know if this was a mistake on the part of somebody, or if it relates to the story of Mr. McNamara's book.
Updated 26 July 2003
From: "Deimantas Steponavicius" <deimantas@graffiti.net> To: jya@pipeline.com Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 19:00:02 +0800 Subject: "computer espionage" story Good afternoon, now is 11.40 a.m. UK time. I have just been to Waterstones at Emerson Chambers in Newcastle upon Tyne. As for today, there are no flags about "Computer espionage" by J. Mcnamara. But that is not the whole story. I spoke to the salesperson I have mentioned in my review and I got her permission to use her name - Sam (the other assistant who was present on the 14th of July is Christine). Sam confirmed that the last time we spoke about the book the following was valid: 1. The book was marked on their computer as being in the process of being withdrawn. 2. Information about the customers ordering the book was advised to be passed on to the police. I gave Sam your site's address to have a look for herself about all the brouhaha caused by my original report on the Amazon.com (which is withdrawn). I am not in the position to make any conlusions out of all this. I am just passing info which I believe is relevant and true. So, what was really happening with that book round about mid-July? Sincerely Yours, "Damien Casablanca". P.S.: When I came to Waterstones on the 14th of July , I wasn't just a customer they've never had seen before - I am their customer for 7 years. ----- To: "Deimantas Steponavicius" <deimantas@graffiti.net> From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com> Subject: Re: Damien Casablanca's review of " Computer Esp. " Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:07:01 +0800 It would indeed be most informative for you to return to Waterstones and report on how the sales clerks now respond to you. Some of us suspect that the full story has not yet been told, as you can see from the messages in the uk-book-fear.htm file. Thanks very much, John ----- From: "Deimantas Steponavicius" <deimantas@graffiti.net> To: jya@pipeline.com Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 23:51:39 +0800 Subject: Damien Casablanca's review of " Computer Esp. " Good afternoon, I am D.S. You are right that it is not my real name. Been away for a while. Just checked your site (it's one of my favourites ). But that is not the reason I am writing today. Let me make myself clear: I am NOT into black helicopters, conspiracies ,etc. I DO stand by every word written by me in the review of "Computer Espionage " at Amazon.com. Something is very wrong. If the need would be, I am prepared to go back to Waterstones shop in Newcastle upon Tyne. The assistants I spoke to at the Emerson Chambers (I spoke to one, the coleague was within an earshot)are still working there. And I am more than certain they WILL "suddenly remember" me and our conversation on the 14th of July. Just let me know on this e-mail address (maybe not yourself, personally, but anyone who doubts my words). It is quite possible that "things have changed", since the review appeared on Amazon.com. I am glad if they did. Sincerely Yours, Damien Casablanca. P.S.: I am not in the business of promoting anything, I simply feel that there are things in this world which have to be pointed to. P.P.S.: What IF just BECAUSE of that review , that "Computer Espionage " WILL have now "a normal life of a normal book"?
Updated 24 July 2003
Joel McNamara writes 23 July 2003: Wiley had one of their folks in the UK check with Waterstone's regarding the book review. Below are his comments. Still waiting to hear back from Amazon at this point. Will drop you a quick note with any additional info. Joel ----- We've now spoken to Waterstones HQ and they have categorically stated that this review was untrue. They said that they sell lots of controversial items and are not in the business of censoring what they sell and were definitely not reporting buyers to the local police. I think this whole thing is either a practical joke or a case of someone trying to stir up some publicity for this title. There are some odd things about the review - no-one in the UK says 'law enforcement authorities', they would say the police, as we don't have multiple agencies such as the CIA, FBI, local sheriff etc. This suggests to me that the review was written by an American. Also the name Damien Casablanca - doesn't sound like a real name to me. I think I'm going all CSI over this one! Anyway you can assure the author that the review was factually incorrect and that the book is selling through all usual channels.
Updated 21 July 2003.
Subject: RE: Query on UK Book Flagging (the story is not true) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:21:16 +0100 From: QC To: <jya@pipeline.com> Cc: <ukcrypto@chiark.greenend.org.uk> John As I guess you suspected the review was codswallop. It certainly looked suspect when I saw that you had been alerted to the review by the author of the book himself. Why did he not contact Waterstones directly first of all and get a statement or rebuttal from them before approaching you? I work in Newcastle upon Tyne and use Waterstones bookshops quite often. There are two "Waterstones" bookshops within 100 metres of each other in Newcastle. The one in Emmerson Chambers is where I shop for computing and other technical books. I was curious to see if the book is interesting and if it has any professional relevance so, as it had been a lovely sunny morning here, I took an early lunch break and walked down to Gray's Monument where these two shops are located. I enquired as to whether the shop had "Secrets of Computer Espionage" by McNamara in stock. There were two ladies at the sales desk (computer books, etc, Third Floor), one of whom has worked there for years. There was no special interest at all from either to my enquiry. The book was not in stock but they could order it for me. As the price was £25.50 I declined. The search/ordering screen was in full view and there was nothing unusual on it. I showed the "senior sales assistant" a copy of the review. She was rather bemused by it and confirmed that no such incident had taken place in the computer books section nor anywhere else in the shop as far as she knew; an enquiry elsewhere in the shop for a computer related book would have been referred to her she said. Neither she nor her assistant had ever heard of a book being flagged in that way by Waterstones. They were quite happy to chat about this. They said that books are occasionally marked as "abandoned" on the ordering screen which means there is no point in trying to order a copy. This apparently happens when there is some legal challenge made in the UK courts against distribution or a serious error has been found after publication and the book is being pulped. The book in question *is* available through UK bookshops and it seems that as far as Waterstones in Newcastle upon Tyne are concerned there is no substance at all to the story given in the review you cited. > -----Original Message----- > From: John Young [mailto:jya@pipeline.com] > Sent: 19 July 2003 14:49 > To: ukcrypto@chiark.greenend.org.uk > Subject: Query on UK Book Flagging > > > This inquiry from Joel McNamara, author of recently published > "Secrets of Computer Espionage": > > Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 22:05:54 -0700 (PDT) > From: Joel McNamara <joelm@eskimo.com> > Subject: Secrets of Computer Espionage > : > > The book may be making some people a bit uncomfortable. The > following review just appeared on Amazon: [snip]
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 23:18:14 +0200 (MEST) From: xxx To: jya@pipeline.com Subject: Secrets of Computer Espionage This is with respect to "http://cryptome.org/uk-book-fear.htm". Please keep my contact info confidential. This was sketched out to me by a guy I knew in the Home Office. It may be hearsay, it may not be. Publish at your discretion. First of all, the lady at Waterstones was not *supposed* to tell you that your details are being recorded. It's all supposed to happen behind the scenes. Secondly, the procedure here: There is a list of books, and these books are not kept on the shelves of the major bookstore chains in Britain. Among these books might be "Mein Kampf", "The Communist Manifesto" or "Applied Cryptography". When a customer makes an enquiry about the title, the same response is given as is given with any book that is not currently in stock: "It's not in stock, but we can order it for you". If the customer chooses to order it, they give an address to which the notification of the books arrival at that branch is mailed. Again, this is nothing unusual. What is unusual is that this name & address (and any other info) is also sent to the UK Government: NCIS, to be exact. I'd imagine that the procedure for online bookstores is even simpler, since there's no need to keep the books off the shelves. They're simply flagged by the shopping software and everything happens automatically. (I'll follow up with an anecdote that will probably make me seem like a crank. Two years ago I went into a large Waterstones in London, chose "Applied Cryptography" and "Disappearing Cryptography" from a reasonable selection of crypto books in the computing section, and paid with cash. A week later, when I went back to get "Handbook to Applied Cryptography", all the crypto books had gone, and were never replaced within the two months I went back for other purchases. Cockup on part of the staff? Who can say! Paranoia on my part? Almost definitely!)
20 July 2003
To: ukcrypto@chiark.greenend.org.uk From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com> Subject: Query on UK Book Flagging Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:48:40 -0700 This inquiry from Joel McNamara, author of recently published "Secrets of Computer Espionage": Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 22:05:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Joel McNamara <joelm@eskimo.com> Subject: Secrets of Computer Espionage The book may be making some people a bit uncomfortable. The following review just appeared on Amazon: ----- It's sales are being controlled by law enforcement in the UK, July 15, 2003 Reviewer: Damien Casablanca from UK Magnificent book. I've purchased it through my channels a fortnight ago in the US. I liked it so much that I'd decided to obtain another copy to give somebody as a present. I happened to be in Newcastle-upon-Tyne , UK , at the time. So I went to the biggest Watrestones bookshop in the city at the Emerson Chambers. I asked whether I could possibly order the book as they didn't have it in stock. The senior sales assistant was very nice and in a somehow embarrased voice said : "I'm terribly sorry about this but we have the request from the law enforcement authorities to pass to them all the details of whoever tries to place an order for the book." And I said that I didn't understand why. The response was : " There was the special note on our system saying that every bit of information of whoever wants to buy a book should go to the law enforcement first. "So , I said : "What are their going to do with that information?" The response was : "I don't know, we never had anything like this before." So , I couldn't buy a copy then and there, or even order it. But I thought for myself : "I was right about the book. It is a REALLY good one. It REALLY makes somebody feel very-very UNEASY." ----- I'm very interested in determining if law enforcement or some other entity in the UK has indeed flagged the book. Any help in verifying this with contacts in the UK would be appreciated.
To: ukcrypto@chiark.greenend.org.uk From: MH Subject: Re: Query on UK Book Flagging Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 16:59:55 +0100 I've just placed an order with Amazon.. No mention of passing anything to anyone.. Mary
From: PW To: ukcrypto@chiark.greenend.org.uk Subject: Re: Query on UK Book Flagging Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 00:06:43 +0100 On Sat, Jul 19, 2003 at 04:59:55PM +0100, Mary wrote: > I've just placed an order with Amazon.. No mention of passing anything > to anyone.. Yeah, but are you sure they'd tell you? After all, they already have all of your details. :-) I'm tempted to go to the local Waterstones tomorrow and see about ordering it, to see whether they do ask for details...
From: JB To: ukcrypto@chiark.greenend.org.uk Subject: Re: Query on UK Book Flagging Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 17:59:19 +0000 John Young wrote: > This inquiry from Joel McNamara, author of recently published > "Secrets of Computer Espionage": [Snip] Are you sure this is not just some sort of prank to draw attantion to this book. The scenario described does not seem very credible to me. jb
From: OL To: <ukcrypto@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Subject: RE: Query on UK Book Flagging Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 18:44:13 +0100 The 'flagging' of books for the security service is by no means a new procedure. The first time I know the procedure to be been used was in 1966, when a book called 'Coup', a 'how-to' manual ,was causing the Wilsonian chickens to flutter about in the coop. All persons obtaining the book through the public library system were to have their details forwarded. This might seem to be another reason for promoting anonymity, however, ordering it under my own name and as a serving Second-Lieutenant ordering through the military extension of the state library system, never caused me noticeable harm. No more did it harm the rest of the subalterns in the regiment in which I was then serving; all of us agreed over a long summer Pimms session that, on principle, we should all put our names down. I should add that we had been informally warned to do no such thing. The publication about '72 of (Brigadier) Frank Kitson's book 'Low Intensity Operations', that set out the agenda for warfare in the 21st cent., caused a similar frisson and questions in the House. Its publication and notoriety, despite the calls from the ruling part left wing, did not prevent F.K.'s eventual promotion by two ranks to Lieutenant General - requiring Ministerial consent - and appointment at UK Land Forces Commander. It may have prevented him from attaining his fourth star and later appointment as Field-Marshal - a rank to which his contemporary, the less able but more politically sensitive soldier Carver, seemed to rise with ease. I believe that the FBI and perhaps others have more recently used the library system to 'profile' likely difficult customers. Evidence from Oklahoma to 9/11 would see to indicate the fatuity of this procedure, However, fatuity never stopped a civil servant from justifying his employment.
From: PM To: ukcrypto@chiark.greenend.org.uk Subject: Re: Query on UK Book Flagging Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 19:50:14 +0100 Owen Lewis wrote: > > The 'flagging' of books for the security service is by no means a new > procedure. The first time I know the procedure to be been used was in 1966, > when a book called 'Coup', a 'how-to' manual ,was causing the Wilsonian > chickens to flutter about in the coop. All persons obtaining the book > through the public library system were to have their details forwarded. > Owen, can I just ascertain (i) that you are not joking and (ii) how you know this?
To: ukcrypto@chiark.greenend.org.uk From: John Young <jya@pipeline.com> Subject: Query on UK Book Flagging Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 15:09:03 -0700 >I'm tempted to go to the local Waterstones tomorrow and see about ordering >it, to see whether they do ask for details... It would be helpful to see what Waterstones has to say: Joel McNamara reports that the review has been pulled from the Amazon website where it appeared. He has asked his publisher, John Wiley, to try to find out why the review was yanked. ----- Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:38:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Joel McNamara <joelm@eskimo.com> Subject: Missing Amazon review This is in reference to the email I sent you yesterday about the Amazon.com review of Secrets of Computer Espionage where a reader from the UK claimed that purchasers of the book were being flagged by law enforcement at a Waterstones bookstore in the UK. As of today (July 19), the review is no longer appearing on the Amazon page associated with the book. Can Wiley use its Amazon contacts to find out why this reader review was pulled? In doing some quick due diligence research, it appears Waterstones is an Amazon partner. Perhaps because of this relationship, the review, which was originally posted on July 15, was removed because of unsubstantiated accusations by the reader. I'm less likely to put my tinfoil hat on and think conspiracy, but this is pretty odd (especially considering the subject matter and political climate in both the US and UK). Could someone from Wiley also possibly check with a Waterstones contact in the UK about the reader's allegations? I'm sure there is a reasonable explanation for all of this, and hopefully someone will be able to shed some light on it. -----