24 November 2001
Source: Digital files from Court Reporter Julaine V. Ryen, Western District of Washington, Tacoma, WA. Telephone: (253) 593-6591

This is Day 3 of the testimony.

See other testimony: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-jdb-dt.htm

           1                   UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
                              WESTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON
           2                            AT TACOMA
           4  UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,    )  Docket No. CR00-5731JET
                                           )  Court of Appeals No. 01-30303-00
           5              Plaintiff,       )
           6          v.                   )
                                           )  Tacoma, Washington
           7  JAMES DALTON BELL,           )  April 5, 2001
                                           )  9:35 a.m.
           8              Defendant.       )
          10                              VOLUME 3
                                     TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL
          11                 BEFORE THE HONORABLE JACK E. TANNER
                       SENIOR UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE, and a Jury
          13  APPEARANCES:
          14  For the Plaintiff:            ROBB LONDON
                                            Assistant United States Attorney
          15                                601 Union Street, Suite 5100
                                            Seattle, Washington  98101
              For the Defendant:            ROBERT M. LEEN
          17                                Attorney At Law
                                            Two Union Square
          18                                601 Union Street, Suite 4610
                                            Seattle, Washington  98101-3903
          21  Court Reporter:               Julaine V. Ryen
                                            Post Office Box 885
          22                                Tacoma, Washington 98401-0885
                                            (253) 593-6591
              Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript
          25  produced by Reporter on computer.
           1                              I N D E X
           2                                                   Page
           3  VOLUME 3                                      284 - 470
              Plaintiff's Motion In Limine ...................   345
           8      JOHN RABATIN
                       Direct  .......................   288
           9           Cross  ........................   312
                       Redirect  .....................   316
                  BARBARA J. GORDON
          11           Direct  .......................   317
                       Cross  ........................   327
                  ROBERT DUTRA
          13           Direct  .......................   329
          14      SUSAN C. WHITE
                       Direct  .......................   331
                  KRISTIE HANLEY
          16           Direct  .......................   347
          17      BRIAN D. MEYER
                       Direct  .......................   354
          18           Cross  ........................   376
                       Redirect  .....................   378
          19           Recross  ......................   379
          20      KEVIN LAYNG
                       Direct  .......................   381
          21           Cross  ........................   389
          22      RANDY R. OXFORD
                       Direct  .......................   390
          23           Voir Dire  ....................   396
                       Direct (Continuing) ...........   397
           1                              I N D E X
           3      JOHN BRANTON
                       Direct  .......................   398
           4           Cross  ........................   402
                       Redirect  .....................   405
           5           Recross  ......................   405
                       Redirect  .....................   408
                  MICHAEL MCNALL
           7           Direct  .......................   413
                       Cross  ........................   429
           8           Redirect  .....................   434
           9      JEFFREY GORDON
                       Direct  .......................   435
          11  EXHIBITS              Admitted
          12    116                   419
                129                   289
          13    131                   291
                133                   292
          14    137A                  337
                141                   293
          15    142                   294
                143                   296
          16    152                   298
                153                   298
          17    154                   299
                156                   300
          18    158                   301
                161                   303
          19    163                   303
                172                   350
          20    173                   351
                174                   351
          21    175                   351
                176                   353
          22    177                   353
                178                   353
          23    179                   352
                181                   308
          24    182                   309
                185                   310
          25    215                   369
           1                              I N D E X
           2  EXHIBITS              Admitted
           3    216                   369
                220                   387
           4    221                   388
                222                   395
           5    223                   395
                224                   395
           6    225                   397
                226                   394
           7    226A                  394
                227                   394
           8    227A                  394
                240                   331
           1      (Defendant present.)
           2                          MORNING SESSION
           3           THE COURT:  Anything to take up?
           4           MR. LEEN:  No, sir.
           5           MR. LONDON:  No, Your Honor.
           6           THE COURT:  Bring the jury.
           7      (Jury present; 9:37 a.m.)
           8           THE COURT:  Good morning.
           9      (Jury responds good morning.)
          10           THE COURT:  Let the record reflect all members of the
          11  jury are present.  The witness is on the stand, still under
          12  oath, still on direct examination.
          13      Counsel.
          14                   DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continuing)
          15  BY MR. LONDON:
          16  Q.  Mr. Rabatin, good morning.
          17  A.  Good morning.
          18  Q.  You will recall that yesterday I was taking you through a
          19  number of exhibits that were downloaded by you from the
          20  defendant's computers to -- the defendant's computers found
          21  during the search, a warrant -- execution of the search warrant
          22  that you in fact were present at last fall.
          23           THE CLERK:  Mr. London, do you want to move the
          24  microphone over.
          25      Thank you.
           1  Q.  (By Mr. London)  And I want to resume that.  I've got about
           2  19 more of these to take you through, so we won't take too long
           3  doing it.
           4      Turn your attention, please, to Exhibit 129.  And as we were
           5  doing yesterday, if you will just look at the exhibit as I make
           6  reference to it and tell the jury if you recognize it and why
           7  and then tell us what it is.
           8  A.  Yes.  Exhibit 129, this is a file that I recovered from the
           9  computer that was in the basement.  It's a document entitled,
          10  "McNalls.doc."  It appears to be, again, a DMV search.
          11  Q.  For Michael McNall?
          12  A.  That's correct.
          13           MR. LONDON:  I offer 129.
          14           MR. LEEN:  May I voir dire, Your Honor, just for one
          15  point?
          16           THE COURT:  Are you through questioning him?
          17           MR. LONDON:  I am on that exhibit.
          18           THE COURT:  Go ahead.
          19           MR. LEEN:  On the top it says "McNalls.doc."  Do you
          20  know whose handwriting that is?
          21           THE WITNESS:  That's mine.
          22           THE COURT:  It's admitted.  129.
          23      (Exhibit No. 129 was admitted.)
          24  Q.  (By Mr. London)  When you write "McNalls.doc," what was the
          25  reason for doing that?
           1  A.  That's for identification.
           2  Q.  Does that explain the name of the file that you downloaded?
           3  A.  Yes, it does.
           4  Q.  Please turn to Exhibit 131?
           5           MR. LEEN:  What number?
           6           MR. LONDON:  131.
           7  A.  This is an email that I recovered from the computer that
           8  was upstairs.  It was from Jim Bell, jimbell@home.com to
           9  anonymous@openpgp.net.  Multiple recipients of list
          10   <cypherpunks@openpgp.net>.  It was dated October 19th, 2000.
          11  Q.  What is the subject line?
          12           MR. LEEN:  Objection, Your Honor.  403, and there's no
          13  indication that Mr. Bell is responsible for the subject line.
          14  It has the carets indicating that someone else wrote the
          15  original message.  It would be hearsay.
          16           THE COURT:  Was it in the exhibit?
          17           MR. LONDON:  It is, yes.  It's part of the exhibit.
          18           THE COURT:  It will be admitted.
          19      (Exhibit No. 131 was admitted.)
          20  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Would you tell us what the subject line is,
          21  please.
          22  A.  Re: judges needing killing.
          23  Q.  And the date of the email?
          24  A.  It was October 19, 2000.
          25  Q.  Okay.  Now, does this appear to be something that was on the
           1  Internet?
           2  A.  Yes, it does.
           3  Q.  All right.  And does it involve the use of chemicals known
           4  as PCBs?
           5  A.  Yes, it does.
           6           MR. LONDON:  I'd offer 131.
           7           MR. LEEN:  I would make the same objection as I just
           8  raised, Your Honor.
           9           THE COURT:  131 is admit.
          10      (Exhibit No. 131 was admitted.)
          11  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Would you please read the paragraph
          12  beginning "Naturally"?
          13  A.  "Naturally, a chemical solution (pun not directly
          14  intended... but I'll take it anyway) becomes apparent.  If the
          15  ultimate motivation of the car seizures is to sell them and
          16  keep the money, what would happen if somebody acquired a few
          17  ounces or gallons of PCB's (poly-chlorinated biphenyls; common
          18  in 20+year-old (non-electrolytic) capacitors), and sprayed them
          19  (only a very tiny amount per car should be necessary, maybe one
          20  milliliter or so?) into those seized cars through a broken
          21  window (or injected through door seals).  Naturally, it would be
          22  important to anonymously call the local newspaper or TV stations
          23  and report on what had occurred, possibly the EPA as well.  That
          24  car would suddenly change from a $10,000 asset into possibly a
          25  $100,000 liability for the agency which seized them."
           1  Q.  All right.  And it is signed by who?
           2  A.  Jim Bell.
           3  Q.  And the phrase under it, the name, what is that?
           4  A.  Better Living Through Chemistry.
           5  Q.  Turn to Exhibit 133, please.
           6  A.  This appears to be an email which I took from the same
           7  computer.  It's from Jim Bell, jimbell@home.com, to Ray
           8  Dillinger, bear@sonic.net.  The date was October 19, 2000.
           9  Subject, judges needed killing -- needing killing.
          10  Q.  And is there a reference in that one also to PCBs?
          11  A.  Yes.
          12           MR. LONDON:  I offer 133.
          13           MR. LEEN:  Your Honor, this is just a repetition of
          14  the prior exhibit.
          15           THE COURT:  133 is admitted.
          16           MR. LEEN:  May I make the same objections as I did
          17  to the prior exhibit?
          18           THE COURT:  It's admitted.
          19           MR. LEEN:  Okay.
          20      (Exhibit No. 133 was admitted.)
          21  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Please turn to Exhibit 141.
          22  A.  This is also an email which I obtained from the same
          23  computer.  It's from Jim Bell, jimbell@home.com, to
          24  cypherpunks@cyberpass.net.  The date was October 24th, 2000.
          25  Subject line is, "Say Goodnight to Joshua, Mr. Anonymous."
           1           MR. LONDON:  I offer 141.
           2           THE COURT:  141 is admitted.
           3      (Exhibit No. 141 was admitted.)
           4           MR. LONDON:  I ask that 141 be published to the jury
           5  as well.
           6           THE COURT:  Go ahead.
           7           THE COURT:  Just a moment.  Counsel, when you say
           8  published, can any member -- if you cannot read it or see it,
           9  raise your hand.
          10      (Most jurors raise their hand.)
          11           THE COURT:  There's your problem.
          12           MR. LONDON:  Thank you, Your Honor.
          13  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Mr. Rabatin, I would like you to read the
          14  text of this exhibit.
          15  A.  "Sorry, but I didn't particularly appreciate the musical
          16  telephone call.  An overenthusiastic colleague, perhaps?  Before
          17  I was satisfied to look into people who had, unfortunately,
          18  allowed their property to be used against me.  I found out most
          19  of what I needed to know about them, months ago, and they will
          20  be dragged through the (legal) dirt as soon as that's needed to
          21  get the rest of the information.  (Have you told them, yet?  I
          22  think a few of them caught on already; they're not very good
          23  actors.)
          24      "So I decided to respond by doing a couple of hours of
          25  research, and combine that with a few house of field-trip.  Yes,
           1  that one.  Just a 'show the flag' circuit.  Intended to be
           2  seen.  Mapmaking for a process server?  Just a reminder.
           3      "So say good night to Joshua, Mr. Anonymous.  Tell him it's
           4  not his fault that his father is a thug.
           5      "Jim Bell."
           6  Q.  Please turn to Exhibit 142.
           7  A.  This is also an email which I took from the same computer.
           8  It's from Jim Bell, jimbell@home.com, to Robert East,
           9  viking@pacifier.com.  Date was October 24th, 2000.  Subject is,
          10  "Re:  Here's a list from the white pages."
          11  Q.  Are there references in this to a Jeffie, and address is
          12  Eagle Creek?
          13  A.  Yes.
          14  Q.  And to Mike McNall?
          15  A.  Yes.
          16  Q.  And his address?
          17  A.  Yes.
          18           MR. LONDON:  I ask that 142 be admitted.
          19           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
          20           THE COURT:  142 is admitted.
          21      (Exhibit No. 142 was admitted.)
          22           MR. LONDON:  And published as well.
          23  Q.  (By Mr. London)  And, Mr. Rabatin, I ask that you read from
          24  "You may recall."
          25           THE COURT:  Go ahead.
           1  A.  "You may recall that I've mentioned that of all the
           2  road-trip research that I've done in the last few months, it
           3  seems like nearly all of it has been in the Clackamas County
           4  (Gladstone, Oregon City, etc., etc., and now Eagle Creek.
           5  Interesting.
           6      "However, as I expected the Eagle Creek address is simply an
           7  old one for Jeffie.  I visited it simply to check out the lay of
           8  the land, write down license plates of the new owners (who might
           9  be 'related', by employer, to the previous owner.)
          10      "While in that area I visited the old address of 'Mike
          11  McNall', BATF agent, to talk to him about Ryan Lund.  Rented
          12  house, new renter.  But the new renter behaved as if he knew who
          13  McNall was, and is.  He might be a Fed, as well.
          14      "I sent the following item to Cypherpunks List for the
          15  benefit of those listening.
          16      "Quote."
          17  Q.  I don't need you to -- you can stop there, but do you
          18  recognize the following item that was sent to the Cypherpunks
          19  List, essentially the "Say Goodnight to Joshua" email?
          20  A.  Yes.
          21  Q.  All right.  What is the date of this?
          22  A.  October 24th, 2000.
          23  Q.  What time was it posed to the Cypherpunks list?
          24  A.  2:30 p.m.
          25  Q.  Please turn to Exhibit 143.
           1  A.  This is also an email which I obtained from the same
           2  computer.  It's from Jim Bell, jimbell@home.com, to John
           3  Branton, John.Branton@Columbian.com.  The date is October 25th,
           4  2000.  The subject is "Re: Fw: Harry Browne in Portland
           5  11/1/00."
           6  Q.  Does this also contain references to Jeff Gordon of the
           7  Treasury and Mike McNall of the BATF?
           8  A.  Yes, it does.
           9           MR. LONDON:  I offer 143.
          10           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
          11           THE COURT:  143 is admitted.
          12      (Exhibit No. 143 was admitted.)
          13           MR. LONDON:  I publish it.
          14  Q.  (By Mr. London)  And I'd just ask you to read the first
          15  paragraph.
          16  A.  "Sure.  I did a road trip a couple of days ago which
          17  probably worries the Feds.  Talk to Jeff Gordon of the Treasury
          18  Department and Mike McNall of the BATF (Portland Office.)  Just
          19  wanted to ask McNall about Ryan Thomas Lund.  (BTW, I found that
          20  he got about ten years off of his sentence, because of his
          21  assistance in assaulting me.  Care to see the evidence (Fed
          22  paperwork, sentencing documents, etc.)?
          23      "Jim Bell."
          24  Q.  Go to 152, please.
          25  A.  This is also an email which I retrieved from the same
           1  computer from Jim Bell.  Jimbell@home.com.  Sent to John Young,
           2  jya@pipeline.com.  Also cypherpunks@cyberpass.net.  It's dated
           3  October 25th, 2000.  Subject:  Re: CIA in Oregon, Intelink.
           4  Q.  And are there references in this document to a Scott
           5  Deforest Mueller?
           6  A.  That's correct.
           7           MR. LONDON:  Okay.  I offer 152.
           8           MR. LEEN:  Your Honor, this is a copy of a prior
           9  exhibit.  There's nothing new in this exhibit.  It's cumulative.
          10           THE COURT:  It's repetitious to another exhibit, and
          11  which one is it?
          12           MR. LEEN:  I don't know the number, Your Honor, but the
          13  body of it has been introduced in actually two emails already.
          14  The one from John Young to the Cypherpunks list.
          15           MR. LONDON:  It's being offered here for the
          16  significance of the fact that it's found as an outgoing email on
          17  the defendant's computer.
          18           THE COURT:  He's saying it's repetitious.
          19           MR. LEEN:  Yes, sir.  This same email has been
          20  introduced several times.
          21           MR. LONDON:  Well, the fact that a version --
          22           THE COURT:  Why do you need it again then?
          23           MR. LONDON:  Well, it's significant to show that it's
          24  sent as an outgoing email from the defendant's own computer.
          25  The other versions were taken off the Internet in the form that
           1  it was seen.
           2           THE COURT:  Well, it's not the same exhibit then.
           3           MR. LONDON:  It's not the same exhibit.
           4           THE COURT:  Then, 152.
           5           MR. LONDON:  Much of the text is the same, but it's
           6  actually a different exhibit.  It's 152.
           7           THE COURT:  It will be admitted.
           8      (Exhibit No. 152 was admitted.)
           9  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Mr. Rabatin, does this appear to include
          10  database search material for a Scott Mueller in Bend, Oregon?
          11  A.  That's correct.
          12  Q.  Please turn to 153.
          13  A.  This is also an email that I retrieved from the same
          14  computer.  It's from Jim Bell, jimbell@home.com to Bob Johnson,
          15  taallltom@yahoo.com.  October 26th, 2000.  Subject:  Re: Harry
          16  Brown coming to PDX November 1.
          17  Q.  In this email, does Mr. Bell also appear to discuss doing
          18  some DMV database work?
          19      Last paragraph.
          20  A.  Yes, that's correct.
          21           MR. LONDON:  I offer 153.
          22           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
          23           THE COURT:  153 is admitted.
          24      (Exhibit No. 153 was admitted.)
          25  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Please turn to 154.
           1  A.  This is also an email which I retrieved from the same
           2  computer.  It's from Jim Bell, jimbell@home.com to Bob Johnson,
           3  tallltom@yahoo.com.  Date is October 27, 2000.  Subject is Re:
           4  Harry Brown coming to PDX November 1.
           5  Q.  And the reference is there to outing feds.
           6  A.  That's correct.
           7           MR. LONDON:  Okay.  I offer 154.
           8           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
           9           THE COURT:  154 is admitted.
          10      (Exhibit No. 154 was admitted.)
          11  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Please turn to 156.
          12  A.  This is also a email I retrieved from the same computer.
          13  It's from Jim Bell, jimbell@home.com, to
          14  cypherpunks@cyberpass.net.  Also with cc to John Young,
          15  jya@pipeline.com.  Dated October 27, 2000.  Subject is Fw: CIA
          16  in Oregon, Intelink.
          17  Q.  Does this appear to be data base search material for a Scott
          18  Mueller?
          19  A.  That's correct.
          20           MR. LONDON:  I'd offer 156.
          21           MR. LEEN:  I object, Your Honor.  It's the same
          22  database search as Scott Mueller that we just had introduced
          23  about three exhibits ago.
          24           THE COURT:  Is it repetitious?
          25           MR. LEEN:  Yes.
           1           MR. LONDON:  It's not, Your Honor, because here its
           2  significance is this is the outgoing version of that email from
           3  the defendant's own computer.
           4           MR. LEEN:  The prior one was, too, Your Honor.
           5      The prior one was 152.  It was outgoing, also.
           6           MR. LONDON:  Your Honor, it adds additional material
           7  that is not in 152.  The date of birth information for Mr.
           8  Mueller's wife, for example.
           9           THE COURT:  156 is admitted.
          10      (Exhibit No. 156 was admitted.)
          11           MR. LEEN:  May we move then to strike 152?
          12           THE COURT:  152 will remain and 156 is admitted.
          13  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Please turn to 158.
          14  A.  This is an email which I retrieved from the same computer.
          15  It's from Jim Bell, jimbell@home.com, to Cypherpunks at
          16  cypherpunks@cyberpass.net.  Cc to John Young, jya@pipeline.com.
          17  Dated October 27, 2000.  Subject:  Re: CIA in Oregon, Intelink.
          18  Q.  All right.  And is this also -- does this also contain
          19  database search information for Scott Mueller and Kim Mueller?
          20  A.  That's correct.
          21  Q.  Does it contain any additional information that was not in
          22  156?
          23  A.  That's correct.
          24  Q.  Can you read the last paragraph, please?
          25           MR. LONDON:  Actually, I will offer -- excuse me.  I
           1  will offer 158.
           2           MR. LEEN:  Same objection.
           3           THE COURT:  158 is admitted.
           4      (Exhibit No. 158 was admitted.)
           5  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Can you read the last paragraph, please?
           6  A.  "Turns out that there is no 'John Ashe' nor 'Anna Ashe' in
           7  either the year 2000 nor year 1996 Oregon DMV databases.  They
           8  are probably just aliases for the Muellers."
           9  Q.  What was the date that this was sent to John Young and to
          10  the Cypherpunks?
          11  A.  October 27, 2000.
          12  Q.  Turn to page 160.
          13  A.  This also is an email that I retrieved from the same
          14  computer.  It's from Jim Bell, jimbell@home.com, to John
          15  Branton, John.Branton@Columbian.com, with cc to John Painter,
          16  Jr., johnpainter@news.oregonian.com, dated October 28th, 2000.
          17  Subject:  Out and about.
          18  Q.  All right.  What time was this email sent to John Branton at
          19  the Columbian?
          20  A.  1:27 a.m.
          21  Q.  And does this discuss outing a CIA employee who lives in
          22  Bend?
          23  A.  That's correct.
          24  Q.  Does it mention Steve Deforest Mueller specifically?
          25  A.  That's correct.
           1           MR. LONDON:  I'd offer 160.
           2           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
           3           THE COURT:  160 is admitted.
           4           MR. LONDON:  I'd ask that be published.
           5  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Mr. Branton, while that's being published
           6  on the screen -- excuse me, Mr. Rabatin -- will you please read
           7  the two paragraphs beginning "BTW"?
           8  A.  "BTW, in the last two days I have helped to 'out' a CIA
           9  employee who lives in Bend, Oregon.  One of his aliases is
          10  Deforest X. Mueller, but in the Oregon DMV database he is 'Steve
          11  Deforest Mueller' of Bend, Oregon.  He may also have used the
          12  alias 'John R. Ashe.'  See the material below for details.
          13      "Given the fact that the Columbian was happy to write all
          14  sorts of articles about me when the government was making its
          15  foolish accusations, it is obvious that my persona and
          16  activities have easily reached the level of 'newsworthy', per
          17  se.  Well, now I am acting again.  And I'm keeping records.
          18  What I'm wondering is how newsworthy my activities will have to
          19  become before you fear ignoring me more than you fear covering
          20  me."
          21  Q.  Please turn to Exhibit 161.
          22  A.  It's also an email that I retrieved from the same computer.
          23  It's from Jim Bell, jimbell@home.com, to John Young,
          24  jya@pipeline.com.  It was dated October 28th, 2000.  Subject:
          25  Re: CIA in Oregon, Intelink.
           1  Q.  Does this contain more information about Mr. Mueller?
           2  A.  That's correct.
           3  Q.  Okay.
           4           MR. LONDON:  I'd offer 161.
           5           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
           6           THE COURT:  161 is admitted.
           7      (Exhibit No. 161 was admitted.)
           8  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Can you read the single line, "Ooops!"
           9  A.  "Ooops!  Dumb screwup.  Mueller's DOB is 7/10/50, not 1959."
          10  Q.  Please turn to 163.
          11  A.  It's also an e-mail I retrieved from the same computer.
          12  It's from Jim Bell, jimbell@home.com, to A. Melon,
          13  juicy@melontraffickers.com, and also cypherpunks@cyberpass.net,
          14  dated October 30th, 2000.  Subject: Re: Parties.
          15  Q.  Does this contain -- turn your attention to the last couple
          16  of paragraphs.  Does this contain any material about database
          17  collection?
          18  A.  That's correct.
          19           MR. LONDON:  I offer 163.
          20           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
          21           THE COURT:  163 is admitted.
          22      (Exhibit No. 163 was admitted.)
          23  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Could you please read the last paragraph,
          24  "Now would be an excellent time"?
          25  A.  "Now would be an excellent time for anyone to go to their
           1  county voter's registration office, and order a copy of the
           2  voter's registration database for current and future use."
           3  Q.  Please turn to 164.
           4  A.  It's also an email which I retrieved from the same
           5  computer.  It's from Jim Bell, jimbell@home.com.  It's to
           6  jessicas@alum.mit.edu, and also darcy.bender@miis.edu.  There's
           7  a number of carbon copies.  Do you want me to read those also?
           8  Q.  Who is cc'd on this email?
           9  A.  Cc, there's Declan McCullagh, declan@wired.com; John
          10  Branton, John.Branton@Columbian.com; John Painter, Jr.,
          11  johnpainter@news.oregonian.com.  It was dated October 30, 2000.
          12  The subject is:  Still interested in uncovering the truth,
          13  Jessica and Darcy?
          14  Q.  All right. And does this reference Mike McNall, the ATF
          15  agent?
          16  A.  Yes, it does.
          17           MR. LONDON:  I'd offer 164.
          18           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
          19           THE COURT:  164 is admitted.
          20  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Could you simply read the first paragraph?
          21  A.  "There is something I'd like you to do for me.  I would like
          22  you to call the Portland, Oregon BATF office (503-326-5115:
          23  That's the number for 'firearms enforcements' which may be the
          24  proper number for this case.) and talk to 'Mike McNall.'"
          25           MR. LEEN:  Your Honor, I would ask under the rule of
           1  completeness that the rest of the email be read because it
           2  should be read contemporaneously with the first paragraph.
           3           MR. LONDON:  Why don't we publish it.
           4  Q.  (By Mr. London)  I presume that there's difficulty reading
           5  this, so I'm going to ask you to read the exhibit, if you will.
           6  A.  Continuing on:  "Mr. McNall is the investigator who worked
           7  with local (Clark County, Washington) authorities in
           8  investigating Ryan Thomas Lund, whose house was searched early
           9  July 1997, and who was arrested and subsequently pled guilty to
          10  illegal possession of a gun.  (As a felon, Lund was not allowed
          11  to possess guns.)  Lund was also in the operation of selling
          12  drugs (specifically, methamphetamine).
          13      "Lund was, at the time, a four-time felon, twice for
          14  controlled-substances (drugs) violations.  This is significant,
          15  because as my prior emails to you should have made clear,
          16  authorities took perhaps ten years off of Lund's proper sentence
          17  because of two subterfuges.  First (minor) they appeared to not
          18  have included a substantial fraction of his criminal history in
          19  the 'Criminal History Category' and thus put him on 'Column 5'
          20  not 'Column 6' as he deserved.  (This would be much clearer if
          21  you had a copy of the 'Federal sentencing matrix' chart).
          22      "Second (major!) they sentenced him as though neither of his
          23  two drug felony convictions had existed.  The specific
          24  sentencing guideline involved, which as I recall was 2K2.1, said
          25  that illegal possession of a gun (i.e. by a felon) is a
           1  14-point-level offense, but should be treated as a 20 point
           2  level if the criminal has a single prior drug felony conviction,
           3  and 24 points if he has been convicted of two such felonies.
           4      "Furthermore, despite the fact that Lund was clearly engaged
           5  in a crime (illegal drug sales) associated with his possession
           6  of a gun, the prosecution 'stipulated' that this was not the
           7  case.  Had they properly recognized Lund's crime this would have
           8  added an extra four-points, for a total of 28, minus the usual
           9  two points for 'acceptance of responsibility.'  Total,
          10  therefore, of 26 points.
          11      "As I recall, this would have resulted in a proper
          12  sentencing range of 120-150 months, or 10-12.5 years.  What Lund
          13  actually got was 27 months, of which he did perhaps 24 months or
          14  so.  I believe he got such a cushy deal because he did what the
          15  investigators asked him to do:  He was instructed to assault me,
          16  which he did on November 25th, 1997, for the purpose of forcing
          17  me to accept a crooked and phony plea agreement that the
          18  government had no intention of honoring.
          19      "When you contact Mr. McNall, I want you to identify
          20  yourself as who you are, an academic researcher, and your
          21  interest in Ryan Lund's case, but don't necessarily bring up
          22  your association with me unless he first raises the issue.  I
          23  think it's highly likely that Mr. McNall will already know of my
          24  interest in this case at the time you call him, and I think
          25  he'll understand the connection with me even if you don't
           1  mention it, but he might figure it's better to keep quiet about
           2  this and see what happens.
           3      "Please ask McNall about Ryan Lund:  Why he began
           4  investigating him, his criminal record (any drug felonies?), his
           5  sentence, ('Why so low?').  Ask him why Lund wasn't immediately
           6  arrested at the time of the search, since he was already clearly
           7  in violation of drug laws and gun laws.  (Lund was only arrested
           8  on about October 27, 1997; arrest warrant issued October 23,
           9  1997).  Ask him, also, under what circumstances he or his
          10  colleagues talked to Lund subsequent to that search.
          11      "I think this should be done soonest, and this conversation
          12  should be recorded if that is possible for you.  And I'd like
          13  one of you to confirm your intentions to me within a day after
          14  this email is sent.
          15      "Jim Bell.
          16      "Please check the following site for the legality of tape
          17  recording telephone and non-telephone communications.
          18  Apparently it is legal to do so in both Oregon and DC if only
          19  one party to the conversation is aware.  OTOH, in Washington
          20  state and Massachusetts, all-party consent is required."
          21      And the site is http://www.rcfp.org/taping/.
          22  Q.  Please turn to Exhibit 181.
          23  A.  It's an email which I retrieved from the same computer.
          24  It's from Jim Bell, jimbell@home.com, to John Young,
          25  jya@pipeline.com.  It's dated November the 2nd, 2000.  The
           1  subject is photography.
           2  Q.  Is it --
           3           MR. LEEN:  Number?
           4           MR. LONDON:  It's 181.
           5  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Does it discuss an upcoming trip to Bend,
           6  Oregon, for photography?
           7  A.  That's correct.
           8           MR. LONDON:  All right, I'd offer 181.
           9           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
          10           THE COURT:  181 is admitted.
          11      (Exhibit No. 181 was admitted.)
          12           MR. LONDON:  It can be published.
          13  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Mr. Rabatin, if you would just read that
          14  email, please.
          15  A. "Within the next week or two, I will probably be visiting
          16  Bend, Oregon, for photography of various locations, some
          17  addresses having appeared recently on CP.  I would welcome
          18  suggestions from anyone about where and what to photograph.  I
          19  would be happy to receive those suggestions by anonymous
          20  remailer, or anywhere else for that matter.
          21      "Jim Bell."
          22  Q.  Please turn to 182.
          23           MR. LEEN:  I'm sorry, counsel, number?
          24           MR. LONDON:  182.
          25  A.  It's also an email which I retrieved from the same
           1  computer.  It's email from Jim Bell, jimbell@home.com, to Blanc
           2  Weber, blanccw -- blancw@cnw.com, dated November 3rd, 2000.
           3  Subject: Re: What your mail looks like.
           4  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Does this also discuss an upcoming
           5  photographic trip to Bend, Oregon?
           6  A.  That's correct.
           7  Q.  All right.
           8           MR. LONDON:  I'd offer 182.
           9           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
          10           THE COURT:  182 is admitted.
          11      (Exhibit No. 182 was admitted.)
          12  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Okay.  Just read the line, "In an hour or
          13  so."
          14  A.  "In an hour or so, I'm going to Bend, Oregon, for a
          15  photographic mission.  (see some of my recent posts on CP with
          16  John Young.)"
          17  Q.  Do you know what CP is a reference to?
          18  A.  Cypherpunks.
          19  Q.  Please turn to 185.
          20  A.  This also is an email which I retrieved from the same
          21  computer.  It's from Jim Bell, jimbell@home.com, to
          22  cypherpunks@cyberpass.net.  It's dated November the 4th, 2000.
          23  Subject:  CIA in Oregon, Intelink.
          24  Q.  And does this discuss the Mueller home in Bend, Oregon?
          25  A.  That's correct.
           1           MR. LONDON:  All right.  I offer 185.
           2           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
           3           THE COURT:  185 is admitted.
           4      (Exhibit No. 185 was admitted.)
           5  Q.  (By Mr. London)  All right.  What is the date of this email?
           6  A.  November 4th, 2000.
           7  Q.  All right.  And so is that one day after the email that was
           8  182, to Blanc Weber, "In an hour or so, I'm going to Bend"?
           9  A.  That's correct.
          10  Q.  Can you please read for the jury the paragraph beginning,
          11  "This address is a house"?
          12  A.  "This address is a house in a rather new subdivision in the
          13  northern portion of Bend, Oregon.  Mapquest actually cannot find
          14  this address, and when I look at the actual location (Found with
          15  a Pittmon map) the road in question is not even shown yet.
          16  Below is a URL which can be fed into Mapquest to retrieve the
          17  appropriate (although, admittedly, incomplete) map, pointing to
          18  the approximate, correct address of the house."
          19  Q.  All right.  Below down further, "Two vehicles," would you
          20  please read that?
          21  A.  "Two vehicles, Oregon Plates VCV976 and 902ALL are in the
          22  driveway."
          23  Q.  All right.  That's it for the exhibits, Mr. Rabatin.
          24      I just want to ask you if you can just tell us a little bit,
          25  please, about the pathways or the ways that you have of knowing
           1  who has authored an email apart from any acknowledgment of
           2  authorship that maybe in the text of the email itself on a
           3  computer that may be more than one person listed on the account,
           4  the Internet account --
           5  A.  Okay.
           6  Q.  -- has access to.
           7  A.  Okay.  On a lot of the email programs you can set them up to
           8  have different personality, what they call personalities.
           9  Depending which program you are using, they have different words
          10  for it, but you can have it set up for multiple users.  And what
          11  I did in this case is, when I was looking for a specific email,
          12  the path which I have written on the back of each one of the
          13  emails basically shows -- it follows a little road map through
          14  the computer down to where the email program stores the
          15  information.
          16      In this instance, there were a number of people -- well,
          17  there were -- let me back up.
          18      There were a number of profiles, what we call profiles, down
          19  there for different users.  All of the emails that are retrieved
          20  here came from one that was Jim Bell.  So normally what would
          21  happen is that under each one of these there would be a separate
          22  in box, an out box, a sent box, whatever.  So usually the person
          23  that uses that specific sign-in or personality, that would save
          24  all of their emails, would have all the emails that they send
          25  out, it would all be there so you could retrieve it in one
           1  place.
           2      It would be the equivalent of you have an email account at
           3  home and if you have children or spouse or something and you
           4  want to keep your email separate, that's basically what this
           5  is.  So you have one place for yours and they have another place
           6  for theirs.
           7  Q.  So there were other users in the house who were listed on
           8  the account?
           9  A.  That's correct.
          10  Q.  And did any of them show up as the points of origin for any
          11  of the emails that you discussed here today?
          12  A.  No.  I did a --  excuse me -- a very cursory review of the
          13  other mailboxes because I had been informed by the case agent
          14  that there's possibility that a different -- you know, that Mr.
          15  Bell had used his mother's account.  But when I did a cursory
          16  review of the other accounts, either they were empty or they
          17  could be attributed to email sent by either Mr. Bell's mother or
          18  his father.
          19           THE COURT:  Are you through with direct?
          20           MR. LONDON:  I am through with direct.
          21           THE COURT:  Cross-examination.
          22           MR. LEEN:  Thank you, Your Honor.
          23                        CROSS-EXAMINATION
          24  BY MR. LEEN:
          25  Q.  Good morning, Mr. Rabatin.
           1  A.  Good morning.
           2  Q.  The emails that you have gone through this morning and
           3  yesterday afternoon, were they taken off one or the three
           4  computers?
           5  A.  The emails were taken off of the one computer that was
           6  upstairs and was connected to the Internet.
           7  Q.  And how did that computer access to Internet?
           8  A.  Through a modem.
           9  Q.  Was it -- and that modem was connected to cable or telephone
          10  line?
          11  A.  It appeared -- it appeared to be a cable modem.
          12  Q.  Do you know, or -- you're the expert, tell us.
          13  A.  This is a while back.  I didn't recall that I took the
          14  modem.  I believe it was a cable modem.
          15  Q.  All right.  And what about the other computers in the house,
          16  were they directed to a cable or to a telephone line?
          17  A.  All the ones, when I looked at both of them at the time,
          18  they weren't connected to anything.  It appeared that one --
          19  there appeared to be -- appeared to be some sort of a network
          20  connection, but they weren't complete, and there was nothing, at
          21  the time that I looked, that was connected anywhere.
          22  Q.  There are different types of modems, aren't there?
          23  A.  That's correct.
          24  Q.  Telephone modem is different, distinctly different from a
          25  cable modem?
           1  A.  That's correct.
           2  Q.  Can you tell me the specifications of the computer that you
           3  were examining?
           4  A.  I don't have that with me currently.
           5  Q.  Now, all of the emails that you have gone through have a
           6  date and a time that they were sent.
           7  A.  That's correct.
           8  Q.  How is -- how does that date and time get put on the email?
           9  Is there something in the computer itself that does that?
          10  A.  No.  That's -- most of that is -- could you please rephrase
          11  your --
          12  Q.  I'm saying, like, for example, one of the emails -- let's --
          13  let me just look at an exhibit.  185; just turn to 185.
          14           MR. LEEN:  Is it possible to put 185 on the monitor?
          15  Just the "sent to" portion.
          16           AGENT GORDON:  I'm sorry, I had trouble publishing
          17  that.
          18           MR. LEEN:  Let me grab another one.
          19           AGENT GORDON:  Some are better than others.
          20           MR. LEEN:  Why don't we try 182.  Would that be
          21  better?
          22           AGENT GORDON:  Yes.
          23  Q.  (By Mr. Leen)  On the line that says sent, it says, Friday,
          24  November 3rd, 2000, 11:23 a.m.
          25  A.  Yes.  Uh-huh.
           1  Q.  How does the -- how does that information get put there?  Is
           2  it typed in by the sender or --
           3  A.  No.
           4  Q.  -- does the computer put that on?
           5  A.  No.  It's altering Curie by the program.  And one of the
           6  things that you notice here, you have a from, a to, and a send,
           7  a subject line.  That's basically what you see, but there's also
           8  what are known as extender headers which would actually show all
           9  of the different hops and skips and jumps that it takes to get
          10  to whomever it's being meant to go.  So normally what you would
          11  -- it says on the software, only if it works on time, like if
          12  you are looking here, it would work on the clock on your -- use
          13  the clock on your computer.
          14  Q.  This may sound too simplified, but I can go to my computer
          15  and click on the clock down there, the time.
          16  A.  That's correct.
          17  Q.  And then if it's a PC, at least, I don't know on an Apple,
          18  and it will pop up and I can change the date and I can change
          19  the time if want and close it, and then the next time I reboot
          20  my computer, my computer will think it's that date I changed it
          21  to and that time I changed it to.
          22  A.  Correct.
          23  Q.  Did you check the accuracy of the date and the time of the
          24  computer?
          25  A.  Let's see.  On the --
           1  Q.  Well, did you -- when you checked the computer, did you see
           2  if it actually, when you booted it up -- let's say, for example,
           3  if you booted it up right now, it would say April 5th, 10:21
           4  a.m.
           5  A.  Well, possibly if the battery didn't die.  The emails came
           6  from the computer upstairs, and that was active at the time.
           7  And at that time -- excuse me.  With checking the computer
           8  upstairs, it appeared that the date and time was correct.
           9  Q.  I'm sorry, so did you do your work on the computer while it
          10  was upstairs in the house?
          11  A.  No, I didn't.
          12  Q.  So did you -- my question is, did you check at any time to
          13  see if the right date and the right time were accurate within at
          14  least, you know, a few seconds?
          15  A.  On that computer, no, I didn't.
          16  Q.  Okay.  Thank you.
          17  A.  Excuse me one second.
          18           MR. LEEN:  No further questions.
          19           MR. LONDON:  Your Honor, could I ask that the witness
          20  be permitted to answer the question.
          21           THE COURT:  Redirect.
          22                        REDIRECT EXAMINATION
          23  BY MR. LONDON:
          24  Q.  Mr. Rabatin, was it your testimony that before you
          25  dismantled that computer to be able to seize it and take it, the
           1  date and time on the computer appeared to be correct?
           2  A.  That's correct.
           3           MR. LONDON:  Thank you.  Nothing further.
           4           THE COURT:  Recross.
           5           MR. LEEN:  No questions.
           6           THE COURT:  The witness may be excused.
           7      (Witness excused.)
           8           THE COURT:  Next witness.
           9           MR. LONDON:  Call Barbara Gordon.
          11           THE CLERK:  Please state your full name and spell your
          12  last name.
          13           THE WITNESS:  Barbara J. Gordon.  G-o-r-d-o-n.
          14                        DIRECT EXAMINATION
          15  BY MR. LONDON:
          16  Q.  Mrs. Gordon, good morning.
          17      Could you begin, please, by telling the jury where you
          18  live?  You don't have to tell us your address, but just the
          19  geographical area where you live.
          20  A.  Tualatin, Oregon.
          21  Q.  And did you live at 8300 Southwest Chelan in Tualatin,
          22  Oregon, last October?
          23  A.  Yes.
          24  Q.  Do you have a husband named Jeffrey Gordon?
          25  A.  Yes, I do.
           1  Q.  Is he the same Jeffrey Gordon who is a special agent for the
           2  Treasury Department?
           3  A.  No, he is not.
           4  Q.  What does your husband do?
           5  A.  My husband is a traffic manager for a company in Tualatin.
           6  Q.  Is he here in the courtroom today?
           7  A.  Yes.
           8  Q.  Can you point out your husband for the jury, please.
           9      (A gentleman in the back of the courtroom raises his hand.)
          10           MR. LONDON:  Thank you.
          11  A.  That's him.
          12  Q.  (By Mr. London)  I would like you to look at some exhibits
          13  that are going to be put up on the screen in front of you.  If
          14  you have any problem making out anything on the screen, there
          15  are hard copies of the exhibits in the notebooks to your right
          16  and you can look at them there.
          17      I would like you to look at Exhibit 137(a) which has three
          18  pages that are noted 27, 28, and 29.  And looking first at page
          19  27 of 137(a), I want to ask you if you see any personal
          20  information about yourself or your family that you are able to
          21  recognize?
          22  A.  The first item here that I see is 24289 Southeast Filbert
          23  Road in Eagle Creek, Oregon.  That was our address about six
          24  years ago.
          25  Q.  All right.  Do you see anything else in this part of the
           1  exhibit that you recognize?
           2      Can you make out "next door"?
           3  A.  Oh.  I'm not familiar with the name.
           4  Q.  Okay.  All right.  Can you please turn to page 28 of Exhibit
           5  137.
           6           MR. LONDON:  All right.  This has been admitted, so I'd
           7  ask that this be published for the jury as well.
           8  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Do you see any information there in these
           9  handwritten entries in this notebook that you recognize?
          10  A.  Yeah, the whole first part.  Jeff and Barbara Gordon,
          11  Allstate Insurance.  Our address at 8300 Southwest Chelan
          12  Street.
          13  Q.  All right.  And there's a reference there to Allstate
          14  Insurance.
          15  A.  Uh-huh.
          16  Q.  What does that mean to you?
          17  A.  We have homeowners insurance and car insurance through
          18  Allstate.  The agent listed, Todd Rettman, he is our agent.
          19  Q.  All right.  And does that look like his phone number?
          20  A.  Yes.  Um-hmm.
          21  Q.  Okay.  Did you ever share any of this information with James
          22  Dalton Bell?
          23  A.  No.
          24  Q.  Have you shared this information with anyone other than your
          25  husband or, in this case, your Allstate agent?
           1  A.  No.
           2  Q.  Do you see where it refers to an auto policy for a '74 GMC
           3  truck?
           4  A.  Yes.  We still own that truck.
           5  Q.  And a Chevy Spartan.
           6  A.  Sport van.
           7  Q.  Sport van, excuse me.
           8  A.  Uh-huh.
           9  Q.  A '97 Corolla.
          10  A.  Yes.
          11  Q.  Are those your vehicles?
          12  A.  All of them are, yes.
          13  Q.  Do you keep your vehicles parked near your property in a
          14  place where they could be observable in the street?
          15  A.  We normally kept the Corolla and the van in the garage and
          16  the truck parked next to the house behind a closed gate.
          17  Q.  Is the Allstate policy information here, does that
          18  correspond to any of these vehicles?
          19  A.  Yes.  That's the policy for all of those vehicles.
          20  Q.  All three of them?
          21  A.  Uh-huh.
          22  Q.  All right.  If you look at a little bit lower down, there's
          23  a reference to Blue Cross Blue Shield of Alabama.  Do you
          24  recognize any of that information?
          25  A.  Yeah.  Blue Cross Blue Shield of Alabama is our health
           1  insurance provider.
           2  Q.  And does that cover you?
           3  A.  That covers myself and my husband, Jeff, and both our
           4  children.
           5  Q.  All right.  Do you have a son named Joshua?
           6  A.  Yes, I do.
           7  Q.  And have you had to submit any Blue Cross Blue Shield claims
           8  in recent months for your son Joshua?
           9  A.  Yeah, he's had a couple of different appointments with his
          10  doctor.
          11  Q.  All right.  Does this information appear to be accurate
          12  claims information with regard to any claims that you have
          13  submitted or that have been submitted on your behalf to Blue
          14  Cross Blue Shield of Alabama --
          15  A.  A --
          16  Q.  -- either for any medical visits that you have made or that
          17  your son Joshua has made?
          18  A.  The one that I'm seeing right here actually looks like my
          19  husband's doctor.
          20  Q.  Please turn to 29.
          21      Okay.  Is your son Joshua J. Gordon?
          22  A.  Yes.  And this is his -- it looks like a claims EOB
          23  information explanation benefits for an appointment that he had
          24  with his doctor to have a wart removed.
          25  Q.  Now, were you expecting to receive your claims information
           1  in the mail in October of 2000?
           2  A.  We normally -- we normally always get it in the mail.
           3  Sometimes it could take maybe three weeks.  But, yeah, we would
           4  get that.
           5  Q.  And did you correspond with Blue Cross Blue Shield of
           6  Alabama using your 8300 Southwest Chelan address in Tualatin?
           7  A.  Yes.
           8  Q.  Where is the mail delivered at that address?  Is it to a
           9  mailbox?
          10  A.  Yeah.  There's a mailbox, and just in front of the house.
          11  Q.  Out by the road?
          12  A.  Yes.
          13  Q.  Did you ever receive your claim in October for these visits,
          14  Joshua's visit?  Did you ever receive it?
          15  A.  No, I did not.
          16  Q.  But you had received, perhaps, prior claim reports from Blue
          17  Cross Blue Shield of Alabama for other visits?
          18  A.  Yes.  For Joshua and for all of us.
          19  Q.  Is it your practice to throw away that information in the
          20  garbage that's put out on the street when you are done with it?
          21  A.  No.  I would keep all claims information.  I keep them so I
          22  can cross-reference to doctor bills that come in afterwards.
          23  Q.  And anything you don't keep, what do you do with it?
          24  A.  I burn it.  I burn all of our information that's left over
          25  from paying bills or any other, just for safety.
           1  Q.  All right.  Now, after you were notified that this
           2  information had been found in a notebook taken from the
           3  defendant's residence in this case, did you take any steps to
           4  change your mailing address with regard to Blue Cross Blue
           5  Shield of Alabama, correspondence or anything else?
           6  A.  I had to call Blue Cross Blue Shield and ask them to send me
           7  a copy of that explanation of benefits because I hadn't gotten
           8  it, and I asked them to send it to our new P.O. box address
           9  which we had just gotten.
          10  Q.  What was that P.O. box?
          11  A.  P.O. Box 1209, Tualatin, Oregon 97062.
          12  Q.  All right.  Have you ever taken any of this personal
          13  information about yourself and included it in email
          14  correspondence that might have traveled on the Internet?
          15  A.  No.
          16  Q.  All right.  I would like to ask that you be shown Exhibit
          17  105.
          18           MR. LONDON:  And these can be published to the jury as
          19  well.  Any that have been admitted can be published.
          20  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Mrs. Gordon, can you look at Exhibit 105
          21  and tell us if you recognize anything on this printout?
          22  A.  It looks like about the seventh person listed down, Jeffrey
          23  Phillip Gordon, 24289 Southeast Filbert Road, Eagle Creek.  That
          24  is our old address and my husband's name.
          25  Q.  Let me show you Exhibit 128.  Can you make out anything
           1  there that looks familiar to you as well?
           2  A.  The third line listed says Jeffrey Phillip Gordon, 24289
           3  Southeast Filbert Road, Eagle Creek.  That's also my husband and
           4  our old address.  It looks like -- I'm not sure what the rest of
           5  it is.
           6  Q.  Will you please look at Exhibit 200.
           7      Can you make out anything on 200, or do you need to look at
           8  the hard copy of that?
           9  A.  I might be able to make it out.  Just a second here.
          10  Q.  The third reference contains a reference to Southeast
          11  Filbert.  Does that appear to be information about you?
          12  A.  Oh, yeah.  I see, umm -- actually, it looks like my
          13  husband's birth date is listed there and also my name, my birth
          14  date, and our address in Eagle Creek.
          15  Q.  All right.  It refers to a Barbi Gordon.  Do you go by
          16  Barbi?
          17  A.  Yes.  And it's spelled like that, too.
          18           MR. LONDON:  Can the witness be shown 201.
          19  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Anything on this one that you can
          20  recognize?
          21  A.  The third entry there also says Jeffrey Phillip Gordon --
          22  that's my husband -- and our address in Eagle Creek.
          23           MR. LONDON:  203, please.
          24  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Do you see anything on 203 on this computer
          25  printout that looks familiar to you?
           1  A.  I can't read what's right up on the top.  I don't know if
           2  you can bring that down a little bit.
           3      I see it says 8300 Southwest Chelan is where Jeff and Barbi
           4  Gordons' vehicle -- and it was our old vehicle at the time --
           5  the license plate number, and it says, "becomes registered in
           6  1997."
           7      And then below that where it says Abram Tabakov, those are
           8  the people who lived in our house before we did on 8300
           9  Southwest Chelan Street.
          10  Q.  SAV794, was that your license plate tab?
          11  A.  Yeah.  Yes.
          12  Q.  Let's look at 204, please.  Is that you?
          13  A.  Yes, that's my name.  That's our license number.  It looks
          14  like even maybe the vin number for our Toyota and Jeffrey's name
          15  and our -- it says "New address for SAV794 car."  And it's our
          16  address on 8300 Southwest Chelan Street.
          17  Q.  All right.  So in 1997, did you change your address from
          18  Eagle Creek to Tualatin?
          19  A.  I'm trying to think when we moved.  Yeah.  It was actually,
          20  we had moved already, but we were probably late on changing the
          21  DMV records.  But, yes.  We did change it.
          22  Q.  All right.  Other than yourself, do you see any reference in
          23  this printout to any other Gordons or anybody else there?
          24  A.  Well, it shows Jeffrey P. Gordon.  That's my husband.
          25  Q.  Other than you and your husband.
           1  A.  No.
           2  Q.  Okay.  Please go to 205.
           3      On this one, with the handwritten header "Year 1994
           4  Vehicle," do you see anything about yourself or your husband or
           5  any of your cars?
           6  A.  Yeah.  There's an entry down towards the bottom.  It says
           7  SAV794 Toyota, and that's the identification number for the
           8  Toyota.  And Jeffrey Gordon and Barbara Gordon and our Eagle
           9  Creek address.
          10  Q.  Please look at 207.
          11      Anything there in 207 about you or your husband?
          12  A.  The third line down.  Jeffrey Phillip Gordon, 8300 Southwest
          13  Chelan Street in Tualatin, that's ours.  That was our old
          14  address.
          15  Q.  208.
          16  A.  It looks like the seventh line down, Jeffrey Phillip Gordon,
          17  24289 Southeast Filbert Road, Eagle Creek.  That was our old
          18  address.
          19  Q.  209, finally, please.
          20  A.  It looks like the fourth line down shows SAV794 -- that's
          21  our Toyota's license plate number -- and it says Jeffrey
          22  Gordon.
          23  Q.  Are you employed?
          24  A.  Yes.
          25  Q.  Is your husband employed?
           1  A.  Yes.
           2  Q.  What time do you get home typically at the end of the day?
           3  A.  His schedule and my schedule vary quite a bit.  At the time
           4  I was working, going into work at about 2:00 in the morning, and
           5  I would get off by 2:30 or so in the afternoon to pick up the
           6  kids.  He would typically not get home until maybe 5:00 or
           7  sometimes even 6:00.  It just depended on the workload and the
           8  day.
           9  Q.  So is there a typical time when mail is delivered to your
          10  house?
          11  A.  I'm thinking it was around noon or so, or 1:00 in the
          12  afternoon.
          13  Q.  So is there a window of opportunity between the time when
          14  you -- when the mail is delivered and the time when the first
          15  adult comes home where the mail is left out in the box?
          16  A.  Yeah.  We were also frequently guilty of leaving it in there
          17  overnight or for a couple of days just because our schedules are
          18  so busy.
          19           MR. LONDON:  Nothing further of this witness, Your
          20  Honor.
          21           THE COURT:  Cross-examination.
          22                        CROSS-EXAMINATION
          23  BY MR. LEEN:
          24  Q.  Good morning, Ms. Gordon.
          25  A.  Hi.
           1  Q.  Ms. Gordon, do you know this individual seated over here in
           2  the blue shirt?
           3  A.  Only by a picture.
           4  Q.  And how do you know -- who showed you the picture?
           5  A.  Jeff Gordon, the agent.
           6  Q.  Not your husband Jeff Gordon, but this Jeff Gordon over
           7  here?
           8  A.  Yes.
           9  Q.  And when did he show it to you?
          10  A.  I don't know the date, but it was sometime after we were
          11  notified that someone had information on us.
          12  Q.  And do you recall approximately what time you were --
          13  approximately what month of what year you were notified?
          14  A.  I'm guessing it was the beginning of November sometime.
          15  Q.  Were you -- to your knowledge, was there -- prior to you
          16  being advised that someone had information about you and your
          17  husband and at least one of your children, and were you aware
          18  that anyone had -- did you think anyone had stolen anything from
          19  your property or had trespassed on your property?
          20  A.  No.  I wasn't aware of anything.
          21  Q.  And you burn your mail when you are done with it?
          22  A.  We have a wood stove, and so that was my practice, to burn
          23  -- even after I paid the bills, I normally burn the leftover
          24  statements and whatever.
          25  Q.  For privacy purposes?
           1  A.  Yes.
           2           MR. LEEN:  No further questions.
           3           THE COURT:  Redirect.
           4           MR. LONDON:  No, Your Honor.
           5           THE COURT:  The witness is excused.
           6      (Witness excused.)
           7           THE COURT:  Next.
           8              ROBERT DUTRA, PLAINTIFF'S WITNESS, SWORN
           9           THE CLERK:  Please be seated.
          10      Please state your full name and spell your last name.
          11           THE WITNESS:  Robert Dutra.  D-u-t-r-a.
          12                        DIRECT EXAMINATION
          13  BY MR. LONDON:
          14  Q.  Sir, good morning.  Could you please tell us how you are
          15  employed?
          16  A.  With the United States Marshals Service.
          17  Q.  Are you a Deputy United States Marshal?
          18  A.  I'm a detention enforcement officer.
          19  Q.  In that capacity, are you involved in the booking process or
          20  taking fingerprints from people who have been charged and are
          21  now in the criminal justice system federally?
          22  A.  Yes, I am.
          23  Q.  Have you brought with you today the original Exhibit 240, a
          24  ten-print card that would have been rolled fingerprints taken by
          25  you of defendant?
           1  A.  Yes, I have.
           2  Q.  All right.  When did you take these fingerprints from the
           3  defendant?
           4  A.  These fingerprints were taken on the 20th of November, year
           5  2000.  It would have been the day that the defendant was brought
           6  before us to be processed.
           7  Q.  Do you remember specifically taking these fingerprints?
           8  A.  Yes, I do.
           9  Q.  Can you identify the person that you took the fingerprints
          10  from?
          11  A.  It was taken of Mr. Bell, the individual seated over at the
          12  far left-hand corner table, light blue shirt, dark blue pants.
          13  Q.  And what procedure did you use for rolling these prints?
          14  A.  I used the standard FBI fingerprint card, placed it within a
          15  holder, had the defendant before me using black ink, rolling
          16  them individually across through each of the sections.  Mr. Bell
          17  was also directed to sign the fingerprint card on the front and
          18  then on the rear.  On the backside, I signed it with the date.
          19  Q.  All right.  And does a deputy number or anything for you
          20  also appear on that?
          21  A.  On this one here is simply my, my signature, and the date of
          22  bir- -- and the date it was taken.
          23  Q.  Okay.  So you did this the old fashion way, you actually
          24  rolled the fingerprints?
          25  A.  Correct.
           1  Q.  You didn't use the live scan computer --
           2  A.  No, I did not.
           3           MR. LONDON:  All right.  I offer 240.
           4           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
           5           THE COURT:  240 is admitted.
           6      (Exhibit No. 240 was admitted.)
           7           MR. LONDON:  All right.
           8           MR. LEEN:  No questions.
           9           THE COURT:  The witness may be excused.
          10      (Witness excused.)
          11           THE COURT:  Next witness, please.
          12           MR. LONDON:  Call Susan White.
          13             SUSAN C. WHITE, PLAINTIFF'S WITNESS, SWORN
          14           THE CLERK:  Please be seated.
          15      Please state your full name and spell your last name.
          16           THE WITNESS:  Susan C. White.  W-h-i-t-e.
          17                        DIRECT EXAMINATION
          18  BY MR. LONDON:
          19  Q.  Ms. White, good morning.  Can you begin, please, by telling
          20  the jury how you are employed?
          21  A.  I'm a senior fingerprint specialist for the Treasury
          22  Inspection General, Tax Administration, Forensic Laboratory.
          23  Q.  Can you briefly describe the nature of your work?
          24  A.  I receive cases and I process evidence to identify latent
          25  prints and suspect's prints in order to compare and report as to
           1  my findings.
           2  Q.  All right.  And how much of your duty time is devoted to
           3  that kind of work?
           4  A.  Ninety percent of my duty time is devoted to latent
           5  development and comparison, and about ten percent is research.
           6  Q.  How long have you been doing this work?
           7  A.  Twenty-one years.
           8  Q.  What study and preparation have you undergone for this work?
           9  A.  I received my initial training in the science of
          10  fingerprints through the Federal Bureau of Investigation where I
          11  was employed for eight years, and since working for the Federal
          12  Bureau of Investigation I have worked for two other local
          13  agencies, as well as back to federal government.
          14  Q.  And have you made continuous study to keep up with any new
          15  techniques in the field?
          16  A.  Yes, I have.  I belong to three forensic groups, and I'm a
          17  certified latent print examiner through the International
          18  Association for Identification.
          19  Q.  What kind of technical equipment is available to you in your
          20  work as a fingerprint examiner?
          21  A.  We have state-of-the-art equipment.  Although our forensic
          22  capabilities are first class, we have the digital imagery setup
          23  that can't be -- there's no comparison in this country.
          24  Q.  All right.  And have you actually had occasion to identify
          25  people by comparing what we call latent fingerprints or
           1  palmprints with their known or recorded fingerprints or
           2  palmprints?
           3  A.  Yes, I have.
           4  Q.  Can you approximate how many times you have had to do that?
           5  A.  Hundreds of thousands of times.
           6  Q.  Have you had occasion to qualify as an expert witness in
           7  federal courts as a fingerprint examiner?
           8  A.  Yes, I have.
           9  Q.  How many times?
          10  A.  In excess of five times in federal court, and in excess of
          11  forty times in local and state courts.
          12  Q.  All right.
          13           MR. LONDON:  Your Honor, I do ask at this time that the
          14  witness be qualified as an expert under Rule 72.
          15           THE COURT:  Any voir dire of the witness?
          16           MR. LEEN:  No, Your Honor.  We will stipulate --
          17           THE COURT:  The witness may testify as an expert.
          18  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Will you tell the jury a little bit,
          19  please, what an inked or known print is?
          20  A.  An inked or known print is the intentional recorded
          21  fingerprint, finger or the underside of the palm, the raised
          22  ridges on the underside of the fingers and the palms.  This is
          23  usually done by applying a thin film of ink and transferring it
          24  on to a contrasting surface.  This can also be done
          25  electronically by scanning the ridge detail on the underside of
           1  the fingers or the palms.
           2  Q.  What is a latent print?
           3  A.  A latent print is the unintentional leaving behind of a
           4  fingerprint.  And this is done by the residue that's on the
           5  ridges, the surface of the fingers, and the palmprint.  When you
           6  touch a surface you leave behind that residue, or there's
           7  sometimes residue on the surface and you can leave the
           8  impression of the ridge detail behind on the surface.
           9  Q.  Are there different distinguishing characteristics of
          10  fingerprints or palmprints?
          11  A.  There are four basic characteristics that are used for
          12  comparison as far as latent prints, and that would be a ridge
          13  that comes up and ends, a ridge that divides into two or more
          14  ridges, something that appears as a dot or an island or an
          15  enclosure.
          16  Q.  And using these characteristics as a guide, how do you
          17  actually compare latent fingerprints to known prints?
          18  A.  You actually take the individual characteristics, which
          19  would be the four basics, and there's variations of those four
          20  basic characteristics, and you add one onto the other until you
          21  have determined that they were left by one and the same
          22  individual, the fingerprint.  If you were to find an ending
          23  ridge and count, say, two ridges, find another ending ridge,
          24  count down three ridges, find an island or enclosure, and so on
          25  and so on, until you determine that they were made by one and
           1  the same fingerprint.
           2  Q.  All right.  And as you start to match up points of
           3  comparison, at what point or after how many points of comparison
           4  do you safely feel that you have a match?
           5  A.  There's no set number and there's no set number used in this
           6  country.  The smallest number of fingerprints I have --
           7  characteristics I have ever used to effect an identification is
           8  seven points.  That's also the smallest number ever testified to
           9  in this country.
          10  Q.  Based on your training and your experience, have you ever
          11  known or even heard of two persons, two different people, having
          12  identical fingerprints?
          13  A.  No, I have not.
          14  Q.  And would that even include genetically identical twins?
          15  A.  That's true.  Genetically identical twins can have
          16  fingerprint patterns that are very similar and you actually have
          17  to put a magnifier on and look closely to determine that there
          18  is information that is different.  There's two different things
          19  when you are talking about fingerprints.  There's classification
          20  and there's comparison.  You need the entire tip of the finger
          21  in order to make a class- -- for a classification, and those
          22  basic classifications are loops, arches, and whirls.  With
          23  twins, they could be very similar.  But to actually look at the
          24  little ridge detail, they are different.
          25  Q.  Now, will you please look at Exhibit 240 in this.  There is
           1  a ten-print card.  Have you had an opportunity to examine
           2  Exhibit 240, the fingerprints on it?
           3  A.  Yes, I have.
           4  Q.  Can you please look at Exhibit 137, the spiral notebook
           5  that's going to be in the corresponding exhibit binder to your
           6  right there.
           7  A.  Exhibit 137 is a spiral notebook that I reviewed in my
           8  office.  It's marked page 27 of the spiral notebook.
           9  Q.  All right.  Now, 27, on pages 27, 28, and 29 of that spiral
          10  notebook, did you apply any kind of chemicals in the search for
          11  latent fingerprints?
          12  A.  Yes, I did.  The most commonly used chemical for processing
          13  porous items, which would be a paper item such as the notebook,
          14  is Ninhydrin, and it reacts with the salt and acids present in
          15  your perspiration.  It also turns the paper items purple and
          16  develops the prints in purple.
          17  Q.  Did you have a careful opportunity to look at those three
          18  pages of the spiral notebook before you applied the chemical?
          19  A.  Yes, I did.
          20  Q.  All right.  Please turn to Exhibit 137A, which is a
          21  photocopy of those pages before you applied the chemical.
          22  A.  That's correct.
          23      137A is a photocopy of the paper before it was processed
          24  with the chemical Ninhydrin, Ninhydrin crystals that I actually
          25  suspend in a solution of petroleum ether, and the petroleum
           1  ether has a tendency to ruin the ink or to make the ink run, and
           2  in this case, we photograph all evidence before we process.
           3  Q.  So 137A are those three pages of 27, 28, and 29.  Are those
           4  accurate photocopies of what those three pages looked like in
           5  terms of the text and handwriting, etc., before you applied the
           6  solution for the purpose of undertaking fingerprint analysis?
           7  A.  Yes, they are photocopies prior to the processing.
           8           MR. LONDON:  I offer 137A.
           9           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
          10           THE COURT:  137A is admitted.
          11      (Exhibit No. 137A was admitted.)
          12  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Now, please describe the process you use in
          13  applying that chemical and trying to see if latent prints could
          14  be recovered from any of those pages.
          15  A.  In the request to process the notebook, the request was to
          16  only process the pages that actually had the writing or
          17  handprinting on the pages.  The easiest way to do that is to dip
          18  the solution.  It can either be sprayed, it can be painted on,
          19  or in this case it was dipped on.  I fill a tray up with
          20  Ninhydrin chemicals and the petroleum ether, and then I dip each
          21  page individually without removing them from the spiral
          22  notebook.
          23      After the Ninhydrin is allowed to adhere to the surface, the
          24  petroleum ether dissipates.  Once it dissipates, we put it in
          25  the humidity chamber so it will bring up the prints, the heat or
           1  humidity will raise the purple fingerprints that you see now.
           2  Q.  And what was the result of applying the chemicals and going
           3  through the process you just described?
           4  A.  I developed fingerprints on -- let's see, the notebook.
           5      There were 28 pages, including the front and back cover of
           6  the notebook that were processed.  Of the 28 pages, including
           7  the front and back that have writing, nine did not -- there were
           8  no latent prints of value for comparison purposes developed.
           9  The other pages all had fingerprints of value for comparison.
          10  Q.  With respect to pages 27, 28, and 29 of the notebook, did
          11  you recover latent prints that were of comparative value on
          12  those pages?
          13  A.  Yes, I did.
          14  Q.  And did you have an opportunity to compare those prints that
          15  you recovered on those pages to the ten-print card that's
          16  Exhibit 240 that was taken by the U.S. marshal of the defendant?
          17  A.  I compared the known prints with the prints that I received
          18  from the U.S. marshal to determine that it was one and the same
          19  individual.  The known print card that I used for my comparison,
          20  I did compare Exhibits 27, 28 and 29.
          21  Q.  Were those pages of Exhibit 137; 27, 28 --
          22  A.  Yes.
          23  Q.  And did you say that you did make a finding that they were
          24  made by one and the same individual?
          25  A.  The -- I developed latent prints on these pages.  If I could
           1  refer to my notes, I will determine whether there were latent
           2  prints that I identified.
           3  Q.  Let me ask you this just for the sake of saving some time.
           4  Did you find anybody else's prints other than the ident- -- the
           5  individual who was identified by you as a match to the known
           6  print?
           7  A.  No, I did not.
           8  Q.  All right.  Let's do it that way.
           9      Please turn to Exhibit 171.
          10  A.  171.
          11  Q.  It's a fax cover sheet.
          12  A.  Yes.  The fax cover sheet is still in the same evidence
          13  folder that I sealed it in with my handwritten notes.
          14  Q.  All right.  Now, did you have an opportunity to test Exhibit
          15  171, the fax cover sheet, for latent prints?
          16  A.  Yes, I did.  It was also processed for latent prints, and
          17  there was one latent print processed of value for comparison
          18  purposes.  In other words, it had enough information to do the
          19  comparison with the known prints.  And I did identify the one
          20  print as being a fingerprint of James Dalton Bell.
          21  Q.  From the known -- from the known print?
          22  A.  Yes.
          23  Q.  Please turn to Exhibit 226.  Actually, there are three I'm
          24  going to ask you to look at in succession, 226, 227, and 228.
          25  A.  Exhibit 226?
           1  Q.  Yes.
           2  A.  Exhibit 226 is also in the same sealed envelope that it came
           3  from my forensic laboratory.  It's thermal paper.  It was also
           4  processed with Ninhydrin.  Sometimes thermal paper has a
           5  tendency to react.  The petroleum ether tears away the layers
           6  and it becomes black.
           7  Q.  Were these three Xerox copies of the note that you were
           8  given to test for prints?  Or three copies of the same
           9  handwritten note?
          10  A.  Yes, they were.
          11  Q.  All right.  Please look at 226A, 227A, and 228A.  These
          12  would be photocopies of those exhibits before you were asked to
          13  apply the solution, is that correct?
          14  A.  That's correct.
          15  Q.  In looking at the A version, or the preprocessing version of
          16  those, do those appear to be accurate photocopies of the
          17  original notes that you were asked to test for prints?
          18  A.  Yes, they do.
          19  Q.  All right.  So the text in those notes is as it would have
          20  appeared when it was given to you?
          21  A.  Yes.
          22  Q.  All right.  And when you applied the chemical solutions to
          23  the originals you were asked to test, did it also have an effect
          24  on the ink and did it degrade the image?
          25  A.  Yes, it did.
           1  Q.  Can you please -- all right.
           2  A.  It actually shows the indentation of the original writing,
           3  but the writing itself is deteriorated because of the petroleum
           4  ether.
           5  Q.  Were you able to develop any latent prints from the
           6  originals, 226, 227, and 228?
           7  A.  No, I was not.
           8           MR. LONDON:  All right.  Thank you.
           9           THE COURT:  Cross-examination.
          10           MR. LEEN:  No questions.
          11           THE COURT:  The witness may be excused.
          12      (Witness excused.)
          13           THE COURT:  It's time to take the recess.  We will take
          14  a 15-minute recess.  Please do not discuss the case among
          15  yourself or with anyone during the recess.  Please go to the
          16  jury room.
          17           THE COURT:  Anything to take up?
          18           MR. LEEN:  There is one thing, Your Honor.  Maybe we
          19  could do it when we come back, but I wanted -- the government, I
          20  think, wants to introduce a newspaper article which I think is
          21  -- should be deemed inadmissible.  But the court will have to
          22  look at the article first.
          23           THE COURT:  Well, let me look at it.
          24           THE CLERK:  Is it marked?
          25           MR. LEEN:  Yes.  Plaintiff's 277.
           1           THE CLERK:  277.
           2           MR. LEEN:  277.
           3           THE COURT:  Government?
           4           MR. LEEN:  Well, Your Honor, there was widespread
           5  publicity several years ago about Sarin which is the reason why
           6  so many people do know it to be a deadly nerve agent and are
           7  afraid of it, and I wanted to offer that as a
           8  self-authenticating document as a newspaper article as example
           9  of some of the publicity that Sarin received at the time.
          10           THE COURT:  What's the purpose?
          11           MR. LONDON:  Your Honor, the victims, named victims in
          12  this case were particularly afraid of this individual because of
          13  his propensity to play with chemicals and the fact that he had
          14  admitted synthesizing Sarin, and that was particularly
          15  frightening to them.  And I just wanted to be able to
          16  corroborate --
          17           THE COURT:  Well, they can say so, can't they?
          18           MR. LONDON:  They can.  I just wanted to make sure I
          19  had some corroborative evidence to be able to offer.
          20           THE COURT:  Why do you need corroborative evidence?
          21           MR. LONDON:  Well, they relied -- many -- some of the
          22  witnesses relied on press accounts as the basis for their
          23  knowledge of what Sarin is.  I simply had that --
          24           THE COURT:  Can't they -- are they going to testify to
          25  that?
           1           MR. LONDON:  Yes.
           2           THE COURT:  Well?
           3           MR. LONDON:  All right.  Then we won't offer the
           4  exhibit, Your Honor.
           5           THE COURT:  At least at this time.
           6           MR. LONDON:  Not at this time.
           7           THE COURT:  All right.  Fifteen-minute recess.
           8      (Recessed at 11:05 a.m.)
           9      (Jury not present; 11:30 a.m.)
          10           THE COURT:  Anything to take up before the jury?
          11           MR. LONDON:  Yes, Your Honor.  There are several
          12  matters to take up before the jury is brought back.
          13           THE COURT:  All right.
          14           MR. LONDON:  First, it has been brought to my attention
          15  by one of the witnesses who's testified in this case, Mr. Young,
          16  who has been present in court since he testified, that he has
          17  been able to download from the court's pacer computer system
          18  much of the court file to the extent that it's available on
          19  pacer, but in particular, what is docket number 133, which is
          20  the names and addresses of the members of our jury.  Mr. Young
          21  is asking me to request of the court clarification of the scope
          22  of the court's order yesterday afternoon sealing the court file
          23  in this case until further order of this court.  And if there
          24  are any questions that he wishes to ask the court in that
          25  regard, I can certainly invite him to address the court
           1  directly.
           2           THE COURT:  I don't want to hear from him.  All I'm
           3  saying is this whole file is sealed until the end of this case,
           4  which will be when the jury returns a verdict.  Then it's
           5  available to anybody in the clerk's office.
           6           MR. LONDON:  I guess a question --
           7           THE COURT:  Which includes the jury list.
           8           MR. LONDON:  I guess the question that I have in my
           9  mind is, it's one thing to order that it be sealed, but
          10  apparently people are having no problems getting access to it
          11  electronically, and I think Mr. Young wants to know what the
          12  consequences would be of putting up on the Internet anything
          13  that he has downloaded from this court's computer system.
          14           THE COURT:  That's not up to me.
          15           MR. YOUNG:  I'm sorry, I didn't hear what the judge
          16  said.
          17           MR. LONDON:  He said it was not up to him.
          18           MR. YOUNG:  Okay.  Thank you.
          19           THE COURT:  Anything else?
          20           MR. LONDON:  Yes, Your Honor.  It's quite possible that
          21  in the time before the lunch break the government is going to
          22  play and offer exhibits that involve the use of the tracking
          23  device that was put on the defendant's car.  In the discovery
          24  phase of this case, the defendant's attorney demanded to know
          25  all of the technical specifications and all of the information,
           1  how the tracking device was installed, where in his car
           2  precisely it was installed.  We have filed a motion in limine in
           3  our trial brief, Your Honor, in which we ask that that
           4  information be not disclosed.  I have cited the authorities in
           5  the brief for why there is law enforcement privilege for that
           6  kind of information, and I believe that this kind of tracking
           7  device falls squarely within the privilege.
           8      As the court is probably aware, law enforcement is permitted
           9  to conceal certain investigative techniques and tools so that
          10  they are not compromised in other law enforcement
          11  investigations.
          12           THE COURT:  Mr. Leen, why do you need that
          13  information?
          14           MR. LEEN:  That information -- I haven't requested that
          15  information, Your Honor.  I didn't intend to question on where
          16  it was placed.  The only question about the tracking device
          17  would be its reliability and how accurate it is.  Specifically,
          18  whether it's ac- -- military grade or whether it's commercial
          19  grade.
          20           THE COURT:  What's privileged about that, counsel?
          21           MR. LONDON:  Your Honor, we actually expect the witness
          22  to be able to testify that he tested the accuracy of the
          23  equipment using other equipment, and in fact we have additional
          24  witnesses who will also verify its accuracy should that become
          25  necessary.  So my view is there's nothing privileged about
           1  the -- there's nothing off limits about his delving into the
           2  accuracy of the equipment on cross-examination, Your Honor, and
           3  I'm perfectly happy to establish it in direct examination.  I
           4  just don't want the witness to be asked to disclose the
           5  technical specifications, and, in particular, how it was rigged
           6  to the car and to what part of the car it was rigged up, because
           7  at that point it enables people like Mr. Bell or others in the
           8  future to dismantle -- to find them and dismantle those devices
           9  in other cases.
          10           THE COURT:  So what am I supposed to say now?
          11           MR. LONDON:  Well, I raise it before the jury --
          12           THE COURT:  You raised it.  He says he isn't going to
          13  raise it.
          14           MR. LONDON:  Well, if he's not going to raise it, then
          15  I will let it stand at that.  I was led to believe by the
          16  pretrial filings, of Mr. Bell's in particular, things he filed
          17  himself, that there was a demand for that information, and
          18  that's why I raise it.
          19           THE COURT:  Are we ready for the next witness?
          20           MR. LONDON:  We are, Your Honor.
          21           THE COURT:  All right.  Bring the jury.
          22      (Jury present; 11:36 a.m.)
          23           THE COURT:  All right.  Let the record reflect all
          24  members of the jury are present again.
          25      Next witness, counsel.
           1           MR. LONDON:  Yes.  The government would call Kristie
           2  Hanley.
           4           THE CLERK:  Please be seated.
           5      Please state your full name and spell your last name.
           6           THE WITNESS:  Kristie Hanley.  H-a-n-l-e-y.
           7                         DIRECT EXAMINATION
           8  BY MR. LONDON:
           9  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Ms. Hanley, good morning.  I want to ask
          10  you if you can begin by just telling the jury how you are
          11  employed?
          12  A.  I work for a long distance company called Uni-Tel
          13  Communications.  I'm the office manager.
          14  Q.  Is that a telephone service provider?
          15  A.  Yes, sir.
          16  Q.  Is it a long distance service provider, particularly?
          17  A.  Yes, sir.
          18  Q.  Do you work for Uni-Tel as a, what we call, custodian of
          19  records?
          20  A.  Yes.
          21  Q.  What does that mean?
          22  A.  It depends on what -- I don't really understand your
          23  question, I'm sorry.
          24  Q.  Is it the practice of Uni-Tel to keep records in the
          25  ordinary course of business on the various telephone accounts it
           1  has with customers?
           2  A.  Yes, sir.
           3  Q.  By its service.  Okay.  As a custodian of records, are you
           4  routinely required to furnish law enforcement, either pursuant
           5  to subpoena, grand jury or otherwise, telephone records,
           6  subscriber information, account information, telephone toll
           7  records for particular accounts?
           8  A.  Yes, sir.
           9  Q.  And do you testify as to the validity or the accuracy of the
          10  account information that you provide under subpoena?
          11  A.  Yes, sir.
          12  Q.  All right.  Now, were you asked as part of this case to
          13  furnish the government with telephone account record information
          14  for a telephone number 630 -- excuse me; I'm sorry -- for an
          15  address at 7214 Corregidor in Vancouver, Washington?
          16  A.  Yes, sir.
          17  Q.  Was that for the months, essentially, May through September
          18  of 2000?
          19  A.  I believe so, yes.
          20  Q.  Did you furnish the government with statements of the
          21  telephone records for that account?
          22  A.  Yes, I did.
          23  Q.  For those -- for those months.  All right.  Thank you.
          24      Please turn, if you would, to Exhibit 172 in the binder that
          25  would be to your right.  It's broken up by the exhibit numbers.
           1  Find the one with 172 in it.
           2  A.  Okay.
           3  Q.  All right.  What does Exhibit 172 appear to you to be?
           4  A.  It looks like the phone bills that we provided to the office
           5  for Sam Bell.
           6  Q.  For Sam Bell?
           7  A.  Yes.
           8  Q.  All right.  And at what address, please?
           9  A.  7214 C-o-r-r-e-g-i-d-o-r.
          10  Q.  Okay.
          11  A.  Vancouver, Washington.
          12  Q.  All right.  And can you tell from this invoice or account
          13  summary what the telephone number is for this subscriber, Sam
          14  Bell?
          15  A.  Can I pull it out?
          16  Q.  Yes, please.
          17  A.  The phone number is (360) 696-4308.
          18  Q.  All right.  And as far as you are aware, is the information
          19  here that's printed out with regard to the origination of calls
          20  and the numbers that are dialed by the telephone that has the
          21  number that you just read out, the account subscriber's number,
          22  is that information accurate?
          23  A.  Yes, sir.
          24  Q.  How was that data captured?
          25  A.  What happens is the call originates, that phone is put
           1  through a switch, and then the call goes to the long distance
           2  carrier.  They send us the call records with the originating
           3  phone number, the terminating phone number, the time and the
           4  date of the phone call.
           5  Q.  All right.  So that is captured, what, on a computer system
           6  of some kind and then summarized and sent to the subscriber in
           7  the form of a bill?
           8  A.  It's sent to us through our electronic exchange file which
           9  we then convert into our billing software which prints out the
          10  bill.
          11  Q.  All right.  Do you have any reason to doubt the accuracy of
          12  the capture of that information and the way it's summarized and
          13  returned to you?
          14  A.  No.
          15  Q.  All right.  Will you please --
          16           MR. LONDON:  In fact, we offer Exhibit 172.
          17           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
          18           THE COURT:  172 is admitted.
          19      (Exhibit No. 172 was admitted.)
          20  Q.  (By Mr. London)  I'm going to ask you if you can look in
          21  fairly quick fashion at Exhibit 173?
          22  A.  Yes.
          23  Q.  And tell us if that also appears to be an invoice for the
          24  month of June, or a June 15th statement summary for 7214
          25  Corregidor and the telephone number that you referenced.
           1  A.  Yes, sir.
           2           MR. LONDON:  All right.  We offer 173.
           3           MR. LEEN:  I'm sorry, Your Honor, I was talking to the
           4  defendant.
           5      No objection.
           6           THE COURT:  173 is admitted.
           7      (Exhibit No. 173 was admitted.)
           8  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Please look at 174; the same question.
           9  A.  This would be their July invoice, yes.
          10           MR. LONDON:  All right.  We'd offer 174.
          11           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
          12  Q.  (By Mr. London)  175, please.
          13  A.  Yes, this would be the August invoice.
          14           MR. LONDON:  We offer 175.
          15           THE COURT:  174 and 175 are admitted.
          16      (Exhibits Nos. 174 and 175 were admitted.)
          17  Q.  (By Mr. London)  176, please.
          18  A.  Yes, this is the bill we sent in.
          19  Q.  Okay.  177, the same thing.
          20  A.  Yes.
          21  Q.  Skip ahead, please, to 179.
          22  A.  Okay.
          23  Q.  All right.  Same thing, is that a December statement for
          24  that account?
          25  A.  Yes, sir.
           1  Q.  All right.
           2           MR. LONDON:  And I offer 179.
           3           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
           4           THE COURT:  179 is admitted.
           5      (Exhibit No. 179 was admitted.)
           6           MR. LONDON:  Thank you.
           7  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Finally, back to 178, if you would.
           8  A.  Okay.  Yes.
           9  Q.  Is that a statement that was sent out or dated November
          10  11th, 2000, for that account?
          11  A.  Yes, sir.
          12  Q.  Does that include telephone calls that would have been made
          13  by the number you referenced for the month of October?
          14  A.  Yes, sir.
          15  Q.  All right.  Can you please turn to the second page, I
          16  believe, of 178.
          17      Do you see a series of dates that are referenced in the
          18  left-hand column of the exhibit for the month of October?
          19  A.  Yes.
          20  Q.  Will you scroll down to October 31st.  Do you see a call to
          21  Portland, Oregon, at 10:34 p.m.?
          22  A.  Yes.
          23  Q.  I'm sorry, that might be -- I'm sorry, that's a.m.
          24  A.  (Nods head.)
          25  Q.  Can you please tell us what telephone number was called at
           1  10:34 a.m.?
           2  A.  Yes.  (503) 326-2246.
           3  Q.  And the approximate duration of that call?
           4  A.  Two minutes.
           5           MR. LONDON:  We'd offer 178.
           6           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
           7           THE COURT:  178 is admitted.
           8      (Exhibit No. 178 was admitted.)
           9           MR. LONDON:  Thank you.
          10           THE COURT:  Cross-examination.
          11           MR. LEEN:  I have no questions.
          12           THE COURT:  The witness may be excused.
          13           MR. LONDON:  I'm sorry, Your Honor, I neglected to do
          14  something.
          15      I'm sorry.  I apparently neglected to offer 176 and 177.
          16           THE COURT:  What does the clerk's records show?
          17           THE CLERK:  No, it's not offered.
          18           THE COURT:  176 and 177 are admitted.
          19      (Exhibits Nos. 176 and 177 were admitted.)
          20           MR. LONDON:  Thank you.
          21           THE COURT:  The witness may be excused.
          22      (Witness excused.)
          23             BRIAN D. MEYER, PLAINTIFF'S WITNESS, SWORN
          24           THE CLERK:  Please be seated.
          25      Please state your full name and spell your last name.
           1           THE WITNESS:  Brian Daniel Meyer.  M-e-y-e-r.
           2                        DIRECT EXAMINATION
           3  BY MR. LONDON:
           4  Q.  Mr. Meyer, how are you employed?
           5  A.  I'm a special agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and
           6  Firearms.
           7  Q.  And were you employed as a special agent with ATF in the
           8  autumn of 2000?
           9  A.  Yes, I was.
          10  Q.  All right.  And as part of your duties as an ATF agent in
          11  that regard, were you asked to install or to help install an
          12  electronic tracking device on the vehicle of defendant, James
          13  Dalton Bell?
          14  A.  Yes, I was.
          15  Q.  All right.  And did you in fact do that on November 6th of
          16  2000?
          17  A.  That's correct.
          18  Q.  And was that done at the time that other agents were
          19  executing the federal search warrant at Mr. Bell's residence?
          20  A.  Yes, it was.
          21  Q.  All right.  Was that done pursuant to a federal court order,
          22  as best as you know?
          23  A.  Yes, it was.
          24  Q.  Okay.  Can you please tell us in broad terms how this
          25  tracking device works?
           1  A.  The tracking device is a global positioning system unit.
           2  It's a device that uses satellites to fix a certain position to
           3  the device.  That information is transmitted via radio frequency
           4  to a software program that plots that information onto a mapping
           5  system.
           6  Q.  All right.  Well, let me -- let me break it down just a
           7  little bit.  Does the device that you install on the car either
           8  have a power source or a hookup to a power source of some kind
           9  so that it can emit an electronic signal?
          10  A.  Yes, it does.
          11  Q.  All right.  And is that signal then captured or received by
          12  a commercial satellite?
          13  A.  Yes, it is.
          14  Q.  And is it then -- is the data that the signal sends out,
          15  that is captured by the satellite, is that stored by the
          16  satellite or retransmitted by the satellite back down to earth,
          17  if you will?
          18  A.  It is actually -- the information is stored from the
          19  satellite to the device.
          20  Q.  And does the satellite have an ability to translate the
          21  signal into longitude and latitudinal -- excuse me --
          22  longitudinal and latitudinal data?
          23  A.  That's correct, it does.
          24  Q.  All right.  So is it fair to say that as the tracking device
          25  moves through physical space, the longitude and latitude of its
           1  location are recorded in real time?
           2  A.  Yes, it is.
           3  Q.  And can those be transmitted by the satellite back down to
           4  earth so somebody is capable of tracking the location of the
           5  satellite device in real time?
           6  A.  Yes, it is.
           7  Q.  All right.
           8  A.  May I make one correction?  It is actually transmitted from
           9  the device via RF.  It's not transmitted from the satellite to
          10  the --
          11  Q.  All right.  Thank you.  When you say RF, does that mean
          12  radio frequency?
          13  A.  That's correct.
          14  Q.  All right.  Do you take any steps either prior to the
          15  installation of such a device or as -- after the device has been
          16  installed to verify the accuracy of the information that it is
          17  capturing and that is being sent by a radio frequency?
          18  A.  Yes, I have.
          19  Q.  What steps do you take to make sure, essentially to
          20  double-check the accuracy of the signal that you are getting
          21  as to the location of the tracking device?
          22  A.  I have a separate hand-held device that I use that's made by
          23  another manufacturer to -- to corroborate those, those
          24  settings.
          25  Q.  All right.  And is -- when you say hand-held device, is that
           1  also what we call a GPS system?
           2  A.  Yes, it is.
           3  Q.  What does GPS stand for?
           4  A.  Global positioning system.
           5  Q.  All right.  Are you aware of any differences in grade or
           6  quality or reliability of GPS equipment in general?  For
           7  example, if there's such a thing as military grade that might be
           8  particularly high quality and commercial grade that might not be
           9  very reliable?
          10  A.  Yes, there is.
          11  Q.  What kinds of factors affect the reliability of this
          12  equipment?
          13  A.  The ability of the receiver in the device to pick up more
          14  chat -- more satellites.  Some may only pick up three
          15  satellites, some may pick up to 12 satellites.
          16  Q.  And, in fact, aren't there a number of GPS tracking devices
          17  sort of commercially available on the market these days?
          18  A.  Yes, there is.
          19  Q.  Could I go into a Costco, for example, and buy a GPS system
          20  if I wanted to put it in my own car just for kicks?
          21  A.  Yes, you could.
          22  Q.  What grade or quality would you say was the equipment that
          23  was used in this case?
          24  A.  It was a high quality multi-channel, multi-satellite
          25  tracking system.
           1  Q.  Is that one that is typically used by law enforcement?
           2  A.  Yes, it is.
           3  Q.  Do you happen to know if that's one that would also be used
           4  by military?
           5  A.  Probably, yes.
           6  Q.  And the equipment that you use to track the equipment that
           7  was installed in the car, what quality level equipment was that,
           8  would you say?
           9  A.  Again, that is high quality.  Something that the military
          10  law enforcement would use.
          11  Q.  All right.  Now, when the device that was installed on Mr.
          12  Bell's car gave out a particular readout, were you able to
          13  correspond that to a location on a map and then go and check and
          14  see if his car was actually there?
          15  A.  Yes, we were able to do that.
          16  Q.  How did do you that?
          17  A.  The coordinates are laid out on a graphical map in a
          18  software program and the mapping software gives you streets,
          19  cross streets.  It gives you landmarks.
          20  Q.  All right.  So I just want to break it down a little bit.
          21  Is it your testimony that there's also a software package that
          22  is available that enables the data that is captured by the
          23  tracking device and the satellite to be translated into
          24  coordinates that appear on a physical map, for example, of
          25  downtown Portland or Vancouver, Washington?
           1  A.  That is correct.
           2  Q.  All right.  And so if you receive a signal that indicates on
           3  that software package that Mr. Bell's car is in the parking lot
           4  at the Vancouver Public Library, for example, are you able to go
           5  to the Vancouver Public Library and see if you can actually spot
           6  his car?
           7  A.  Yes, you can.
           8  Q.  Do you know what his car looks like?
           9  A.  Yes, I do.
          10  Q.  What was the make of the car that you installed the device
          11  in?
          12  A.  It was a Nissan Maxima.
          13  Q.  Did you ever receive a signal that the Nissan Maxima was at
          14  a particular location and then did you ever go and verify that
          15  it was at that location?
          16  A.  I did not personally.
          17  Q.  Do you know if anyone at ATF did?
          18  A.  I believe they did.
          19  Q.  Do you know Alice Clark?
          20  A.  Yes, I do.
          21  Q.  Is she a special agent with ATF?
          22  A.  Yes, she is.
          23  Q.  Did she help in this project to verify the accuracy of the
          24  satellite information by going to physical locations where it
          25  was reporting itself to be and to verify that the car was in
           1  fact there?
           2           MR. LEEN:  Objection.  Hearsay.
           3           MR. LONDON:  I asked if he knew if she did that.
           4           MR. LEEN:  Well, he would know it through hearsay, Your
           5  Honor.
           6           THE COURT:  In his office?
           7           MR. LONDON:  Yes.
           8  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Do you know -- the question is, do you know
           9  whether Ms. Clark personally went to any locations that were
          10  reported as the location of Mr. Bell's vehicle by the GPS
          11  tracking device and was able to see that in fact the car was
          12  there?
          13  A.  Yes, I do.
          14           MR. LEEN:  Objection.  Hearsay.  Move to strike.
          15           THE COURT:  It will stand.  Do you want to voir dire?
          16           MR. LEEN:  No, Your Honor.
          17           THE COURT:  Go ahead.
          18           MR. LONDON:  I proffer that Ms. Clark is available and
          19  we can bring her in.
          20           THE COURT:  All right.  Any further questions of this
          21  witness?
          22           MR. LONDON:  Yes.
          23  Q.  (By Mr. London)  I want to turn your attention to the very
          24  early morning hours of November 10th of 2000, shortly after
          25  midnight.  Have you had an opportunity to review the data
           1  captured as translated by the software package onto the map?
           2  A.  Yes, I have.
           3  Q.  Of the location of the tracking device early in the morning
           4  of November 10th?
           5  A.  Yes, I have.
           6  Q.  And has that been translated onto a computer diskette for
           7  the purpose of display?
           8  A.  Yes, it has.
           9  Q.  And do you have any reason to doubt the accuracy of the
          10  transfer of the digital information through the software package
          11  onto the diskette?
          12  A.  No, I don't.
          13  Q.  Have you had an opportunity to exhibit -- to view, excuse me
          14  -- Government's Exhibit 215 in this case?
          15  A.  Yes, I have.
          16  Q.  Is that the diskette?
          17  A.  Yes, it is.
          18  Q.  All right.  What does -- what does the diskette show when
          19  played with regard to the location of the tracking device in its
          20  point of origination in the excerpt that has been put onto the
          21  diskette?
          22           MR. LEEN:  Your Honor, I would object that the
          23  reliability has not been established of the device.  The
          24  scientific reliability has not been established.
          25           THE COURT:  You can go into it on cross-examination, or
           1  do you want to voir dire now?
           2           MR. LEEN:  No.  I think it's the government's burden.
           3  So I --
           4           MR. LONDON:  Well, I do ask --
           5           THE COURT:  Well, let's --
           6           MR. LONDON:  I will continue.
           7           THE COURT:  Just a moment.  Just a moment.  It's lunch
           8  time.
           9      The jury is cautioned, please do not discuss the case among
          10  yourselves or with anyone else over the lunch recess.  Be in the
          11  jury room at 1:30.  1:30.
          12      (Jury excused at 11:55 a.m.)
          13           THE COURT:  The witness may step down off the stand.
          14      Nobody is to leave the courtroom until the jury -- and the
          15  security people will take care of it -- until the jury has
          16  cleared the corridor.  And then we have another matter to take
          17  up.
          18      Is anybody present that is seeking the names of these
          19  jurors?
          20           MR. LONDON:  Your Honor --
          21           THE COURT:  Do you have any knowledge, counsel?
          22           MR. LONDON:  The knowledge I have is simply this.  I
          23  believe the names of the jurors and their addresses have already
          24  been obtained by Mr. Young, and Mr. Young now wants to know what
          25  the consequences would be of his publishing it on his website on
           1  the Internet.
           2           THE COURT:  Tell Mr. Young to come forward.
           3      Mr. Young, you were the same person that was previously a
           4  witness in this case, sir?
           5           MR. YOUNG:  Correct.
           6           THE COURT:  Why, if you do -- I don't want to put words
           7  in your mouth -- do you want to publish the names of these
           8  jurors?
           9           MR. YOUNG:  Well, it turns out I would not like to, but
          10  because it's public information, I wanted to bring it to the
          11  court's attention that it is public information because I
          12  downloaded it this morning, and listening to your order
          13  yesterday I was concerned that it is public information.  I
          14  think your order said we should not publish information like
          15  that.  So I wanted clarification on that.
          16           THE COURT:  No one, the print media, electronic media,
          17  no member of the prosecution, none of the witnesses of the
          18  prosecution, nor the defendant, nor their lawyers are to print,
          19  under any circumstances, the names of these jurors pending the
          20  final determination of the verdict in this case.
          21           MR. YOUNG:  Understood.
          22           THE COURT:  Under penalty of contempt.
          23      You are free to go.
          24           MR. YOUNG:  Yes, sir.
          25           THE COURT:  Do you understand, sir?
           1           MR. YOUNG:  Yes, I do.
           2           THE COURT:  Just so there's no understanding --
           3  misunderstanding.
           4           MR. YOUNG:  I understand that clearly.  That's why I'm
           5  bringing it to the court's attention that this is out there on
           6  the website right now.
           7           THE COURT:  All right.  Anybody else have any questions
           8  about that?
           9      Any member of media present or any of either party, the
          10  government or the defendant?
          11           MR. LONDON:  I have a question about that, which is
          12  that, does the scope of that order also include the names and
          13  addresses of people who happen to be identified in exhibits that
          14  have been now filed by this court as part of the trial record?
          15           THE COURT:  The jurors.
          16           MR. LONDON:  The jurors only?
          17           THE COURT:  The jurors only.
          18           MR. LONDON:  Yesterday, Your Honor, the court ordered
          19  that the entire court file shall be sealed until it --
          20           THE COURT:  It will remain in this courtroom in the
          21  custody of the clerk of this court pending the jury verdict.
          22  And then it will be in the court, available to anybody.
          23      Any other questions?
          24      1:30.
          25      Oh, here.  I want to give each party --
           1           THE CLERK:  They've got them.
           2           THE COURT:  You've got them?  You've got the proposed
           3  packet?
           4           MR. LEEVER:  I did it yesterday.
           5           MR. LEEN:  Yes, we got those yesterday, Your Honor.
           6           THE COURT:  All right.  They do not purport to be the
           7  final.  They're -- I give them to you so you won't have to look
           8  at them but one or two minutes and try to understand them.  They
           9  do not purport to be the final instructions.
          10      Each party, at the proper time, will have objections to
          11  except to the proposed instructions as it will appear at that
          12  time, and I will read them to you so you will have the final
          13  package.  Each one of you will get to except to both the court's
          14  proposed instructions and the court's failure to give each
          15  party's proposed instructions.
          16      Do you understand?
          17           MR. LEEN:  Yes, sir.
          18           THE COURT:  I'm just giving them to you now so you can
          19  read them over your lunch or your dinner recess.
          20           MR. LEEN:  Does the court anticipate when you want to
          21  address jury instructions at this point, or do you just don't --
          22  at this point we don't know when it will be?
          23           THE COURT:  Whenever both parties rest.
          24           MR. LEEN:  All right.
          25           THE COURT:  Whenever both parties rest.  No more
           1  evidence.
           2           MR. LEEN:  Yes, sir.
           3           THE COURT:  Okay?
           4      All right.  Court at 1:30.
           5      (Recessed at 12:00.)
           6                          AFTERNOON SESSION
           7      (Jury not present; 1:40 p.m.)
           8           THE COURT:  Are we ready for the jury?
           9           THE CLERK:  Yes, Your Honor, I think so.
          10           THE COURT:  All right.  Bring the jury.
          11           THE CLERK:  Be seated, please.
          12      (Jury present; 1:41 p.m.)
          13           THE COURT:  All right.  The jury is again in the box.
          14  Witness is still under oath.  Continue with direct examination.
          15                   DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continuing)
          16  BY MR. LONDON:
          17  Q.  Agent Meyer, before the break I was in the process of asking
          18  you about what steps you took to verify the accuracy or the fact
          19  that the tracking device was working properly.  Did you check
          20  the accuracy of the tracking device even before you left your
          21  office on November 10th to go and install it during the
          22  execution of the search warrant?
          23  A.  Yes, I did.
          24  Q.  Please tell us what steps you took to make sure it was
          25  working properly?
           1  A.  The night before the warrant, that would be November 9th, I,
           2  while in my office, the device was activated, and I took a
           3  reading using the mapping software, and it indicated I was in
           4  fact at my office.
           5  Q.  All right.  And did you take any steps to repeat that
           6  process while the search warrant was still in progress after you
           7  had installed the device?
           8  A.  Yes, I did.
           9  Q.  What did you do?
          10  A.  During the search warrant service and after my installation,
          11  I went to an office and again queried the device, and it gave me
          12  the location of where it was.
          13  Q.  And it gave you a reading?
          14  A.  Yes, it did.
          15  Q.  And what was the reading that it gave you?
          16  A.  It was the residence of where we were performing the search
          17  warrant.
          18  Q.  So the search was still ongoing, Mr. Bell was still in the
          19  house, and you had installed the device in the car at that
          20  point, is that correct?
          21  A.  That is correct.
          22  Q.  So the car had not left the property at that point, and
          23  that's the reading you got once you got back to your office?
          24  A.  Yes.
          25  Q.  All right.  Now, did you remove the device after Mr. Bell
           1  was arrested in this case?
           2  A.  Yes, I did.
           3  Q.  And does the device retain the recorded data that it has
           4  captured during its life, during the time that it has been
           5  functioning?
           6  A.  Yes, it has.
           7  Q.  Did you plug the device into a computer which you could then
           8  use to download the information that had been captured by the
           9  traffic device so that it could be put onto a computer diskette?
          10  A.  Yes.
          11  Q.  Have you had an opportunity to look at what we have marked
          12  as Government's Exhibit 215?
          13  A.  Yes, I have.
          14  Q.  And what is Exhibit 215?
          15  A.  It's a disk, a computer disk, floppy disk, that has the data
          16  that was downloaded directly from the --
          17  Q.  All right.  Now, were you able to make a partial printout of
          18  the longitudinal and latitudinal coordinates captured by the
          19  device for the morning of -- early hours for the morning of
          20  November 10th?
          21  A.  Yes.
          22  Q.  And have you examined what we have marked as Exhibit 216?
          23  A.  Yes, I have.
          24  Q.  Is 216 the raw data in terms of longitude and latitude, the
          25  path of the device a little bit after midnight on November 10th,
           1  going on through the next several hours?
           2  A.  That is correct.
           3  Q.  Okay.
           4           MR. LONDON:  At this point, Your Honor, we would offer
           5  215.
           6           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
           7           THE COURT:  It's admitted.
           8      (Exhibit No. 215 was admitted.)
           9           MR. LONDON:  And 216.
          10           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
          11           THE COURT:  216 is admitted.
          12      (Exhibit No. 216 was admitted.)
          13  Q.  (By Mr. London)  All right.  Did you transfer the data that
          14  is in Exhibit 216 onto a diskette for purposes of playing in the
          15  courtroom here today?
          16  A.  Yes, I did.
          17  Q.  All right.  Now, have you had a chance to play that
          18  display?
          19  A.  Yes, I have.
          20  Q.  Does it play in real time?  In other words, does -- will it
          21  take us as long to play that device for the jury as the device
          22  actually spent recording the motion of the tracking, its own
          23  motion over the course of the morning?
          24  A.  No, it is not accurate real time.
          25  Q.  So it's --
           1  A.  It is a time lapse.
           2  Q.  I'm sorry.  It is sped up so that it can be viewed more
           3  quickly?
           4  A.  That is correct.
           5  Q.  Does the software program that translates the data include a
           6  timer system so that one can see how much time elapses during
           7  the course that the tracking device is shown to be moving
           8  around?
           9  A.  Yes, it does.
          10           MR. LONDON:  At this point I would like to publish the
          11  display, and I want to begin by asking that it be shown -- can
          12  you see that in front of you?
          13  A.  Yes, I can.
          14           MR. LONDON:  All right.  And now I would like to
          15  publish it for the jury.
          16           THE COURT:  Well, the main thing, can the jury see it?
          17           MR. LONDON:  I'd just ask that they be able to view
          18  it.
          19  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Have you had a chance to examine --
          20           THE COURT:  Just a moment.  Any member of the jury -- I
          21  see you moving around.  Any member of the jury can't see it?
          22           JUROR NO. 12:  We can if we can move forward.
          23           THE COURT:  Do you want to stand up?  Go ahead.
          24           JUROR NO. 12:  Thank you.
          25           THE COURT:  Sure.
           1      Anybody else can't see it, move where you can see it.
           2      Okay, go ahead.
           3  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Agent Meyer, there's a blowup here that
           4  corresponds roughly to the image you have on the screen in front
           5  of you.  Can you see this?
           6  A.  Yes, I can.
           7  Q.  All right.  The big ribbon of blue that appears across the
           8  top, what is that?
           9  A.  It is the Columbia River.
          10  Q.  Do you see an indication on your display for the address of
          11  7214 Corregidor north of the river in Vancouver?
          12  A.  Yes, I do.
          13  Q.  Okay.  And do you see an indication for 14135 South
          14  Clackamas down in Oregon City, the Groener residence?
          15  A.  Yes, I do.
          16  Q.  All right.  They will show up on your -- on your screen
          17  there.
          18  A.  Yes, it does.
          19  Q.  There also is an indication with a push pen icon for the
          20  Jeff and Barbi Gordon at 2 -- at -- the former address at 242
          21  Southeast Filbert.  Can you see that?
          22  A.  Yes, I can.
          23  Q.  And also Jeff and Barbi Gordon, address 8300 Southwest
          24  Chelan in Tualatin, does that appear there?
          25  A.  Yes, that is there.
           1           MR. LONDON:  All right.  So for any members of the jury
           2  who are have problems seeing what's on the screen, I offer this
           3  just for you to be able to orient yourselves as to the
           4  progression of the tracking device of the exhibit that you are
           5  about to have played.
           6      All right.
           7           THE COURT:  Why don't you do this for aid and
           8  assistance.  Why don't you get the easel and put it there, up
           9  there.  If that will help.
          10           MR. LONDON:  What I think I can probably do is just
          11  prop it up.
          12           THE COURT:  Why don't you get the easel.
          13           MR. LONDON:  I'm happy to get the easel.
          14           THE COURT:  Can everybody see that now?  If you can't
          15  see it, raise your hand.
          16      Okay.
          17  Q.  (By Mr. London)  All right.  What I would like you to do, as
          18  this plays, is just describe as the tracking device progresses
          19  what it is doing and where it is moving just to be able to help
          20  the jury orient itself to the moving dot as it goes.
          21           MR. LONDON:  And I will ask now that the image zoom in
          22  on fairly close to the residence of Mr. Bell at 7214 Corregidor
          23  to the first point where on this exhibit the tracking device
          24  begins to move.
          25           MR. LONDON:  And I will ask that you now play it.
           1  A.  This shows the, the tracking vehicle that -- the tracking
           2  device that is installed in Mr. Bell's vehicle crossing the
           3  Columbia River.
           4           MR. LONDON:  Please pause.
           5  Q.  (By Mr. London)  The blinking black dot that moved in a
           6  forward progression heading south, is that the location of the
           7  tracking device as it is moving south?
           8  A.  That is correct.
           9  Q.  All right.  At this point has it now crossed the Columbia
          10  River?
          11  A.  Yes.  It is in the process of crossing the river.
          12  Q.  All right.  Does that mean that it's crossing the state line
          13  from Washington into Oregon?
          14  A.  That is correct.
          15  Q.  Okay.  Please continue.
          16  A.  Continue, traveling on Interstate 205, southbound.
          17      It is now in Oregon.
          18      Again continuing down I-5 -- I'm sorry, 205.  Interstate
          19  205.
          20      At this point it is exiting --
          21           MR. LONDON:  Stop it at this point.  We're just going
          22  to pause it for a moment.
          23  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Please describe what has just happened.
          24  A.  It shows the device that is installed in the vehicle exiting
          25  Interstate 205 and traveling eastbound on Highway 212 and
           1  continuing eastbound.
           2  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Okay.
           3           MR. LONDON:  Continue.
           4  A.  And continuing eastbound on 212, Highway 212.
           5      Now there's been a change southbound on 2 -- Highway 224.
           6           MR. LONDON:  Please stop.
           7  Q.  (By Mr. London)  What road is it now on?
           8  A.  It is on Southeast Clackamas River Drive.
           9  Q.  Did you happen to observe at the beginning of the
          10  demonstration approximately what time in the morning this was
          11  transpiring?
          12  A.  I believe it was approximately -- actually, no, I didn't.
          13  Q.  All right. We can go back to that.
          14           MR. LONDON:  Please continue.
          15  A.  Again, it's continuing westbound on Southeast Clackamas
          16  River Drive.
          17  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Do you see the real time indicator up above
          18  where it says 12:45, now 12:46 a.m.?
          19  A.  Yes, I do.
          20  Q.  What happens now?
          21  A.  The vehicle -- it appears the vehicle is at 141 South --
          22  14135 South Clackamas River Drive, and is stationary at that
          23  location.
          24  Q.  And it continues to emit a signal, correct?
          25  A.  That is correct.
           1  Q.  You explained that this is not in real time; this is
           2  accelerated, correct?
           3  A.  That is correct.
           4  Q.  Do you know approximately what the aspect ratio is?  How
           5  long it takes to play?
           6  A.  Each -- each dot that you are -- that you are viewing would
           7  represent a 15-second interval real time.  So for each dot that
           8  we see that is being shown, one per second, that is actually 15
           9  seconds in real time.
          10      The vehicle now is heading -- was heading westbound on 212
          11  and has exited and is now heading northbound on southeast 122nd
          12  Avenue.
          13  Q.  All right.  And then it stops?
          14  A.  That is correct.
          15  Q.  Does that correspond with when Mr. Bell was stopped by the
          16  sheriff's office of Clackamas County?
          17  A.  I believe that is correct.
          18  Q.  Did you happen to see how much time the tracking device
          19  spent on the Groener property that used to be the residence of
          20  Mike McNall?
          21  A.  I believe approximately ten minutes.
          22           MR. LONDON:  Could you return to the opening sequence
          23  so that he can note the time that it left.
          24  Q.  (By Mr. London)  When this display begins and the tracking
          25  device starts to move eastbound and then south, what time in the
           1  morning was it?
           2  A.  12:15 a.m.
           3  Q.  So from the beginning of the display we've just seen until
           4  the end of the display we've just seen where the device stops at
           5  the time of the traffic stop, approximately half an hour has
           6  elapsed, is that correct?
           7  A.  That's correct.
           8           MR. LONDON:  I have no further questions.
           9           THE COURT:  All right.  Cross-examination.
          10                        CROSS-EXAMINATION
          11  BY MR. LEEN:
          12  Q.  Good afternoon, Agent Meyer.
          13      I was wondering, the tracking device was installed on
          14  November 6th?
          15  A.  That is correct.
          16  Q.  And it was removed from the vehicle when?
          17  A.  It would have been Thanksgiving morning.
          18  Q.  So around the 27th, 28th?
          19  A.  That's correct.
          20  Q.  And the information that you played for the jury, that was
          21  from the device itself or from what was broadcast up to the
          22  satellites and then down to an independent --
          23  A.  It is actually from the sat- -- from the device itself.
          24  Q.  Now, was -- were agents able to follow this, the movements
          25  of the vehicle independently, either in a mobile unit or at
           1  their office?
           2  A.  Yes, they were able to do that real time.
           3  Q.  Was that being done, to your knowledge, while the car was
           4  traveling on November 10th?
           5  A.  I believe it was, yes.
           6  Q.  And, in fact, was the movements of the car watched every
           7  single day that the device was on the vehicle?
           8  A.  I believe it was, yes.
           9  Q.  Are you aware if there were any other tracking-type devices
          10  that were installed on this vehicle prior to November 6th?
          11  A.  No.  I am not aware of any other devices.
          12  Q.  Or any tracking devices on any vehicles associated with
          13  vehicles that Mr. Bell was traveling in?
          14  A.  No.
          15  Q.  In addition to watching the movements of the car, was there
          16  any way that your agency, or agencies working with your agency,
          17  were able to confirm that Mr. Bell was in fact in the vehicle?
          18  A.  No.  Not -- not viewing this, no.
          19  Q.  How about independently?  You indicated that there was a
          20  traffic stop.
          21  A.  Correct.
          22  Q.  Was that for the purpose of determining that Mr. Bell was in
          23  fact in the car?
          24  A.  I believe so, yes.
          25  Q.  And was there any -- were there any vehicles following Mr.
           1  Bell?
           2  A.  Not to my knowledge.
           3           MR. LEEN:  One second.
           4           THE COURT:  Uh-huh.
           5  Q.  (By Mr. Leen)  Just a few other questions, sir.
           6      You indicated that your agency or people working with your
           7  agency were aware of the movements of this vehicle during the
           8  period of time from November 6 until approximately Thanksgiving
           9  when the vehic- -- when the device was removed.
          10  A.  That is correct.
          11  Q.  And was that around-the-clock surveillance of the vehicle?
          12  A.  Yes, you could say it was around the clock.
          13  Q.  Was there any way in which you were alerted when the vehicle
          14  would move so you actually didn't have to watch the screen at
          15  all times?
          16  A.  Yes, there -- there is -- there is a device built into it
          17  that would --
          18  Q.  Sort of warns you that the vehicle's moved more than a few
          19  feet or something?
          20  A.  That is correct.
          21           MR. LEEN:  Thank you.  No further questions.
          22           THE COURT:  Redirect.
          23           MR. LONDON:  Very briefly.
          24                       REDIRECT EXAMINATION
          25  BY MR. LONDON:
           1  Q.  Have you gone since out to the Groener residence to check
           2  the precise location on the property of the coordinates that
           3  this program reports for the location of the car?
           4  A.  Yes, sir, I have.
           5  Q.  And where on that residence did the car appear to have been
           6  for those ten minutes?
           7  A.  It appeared --
           8  Q.  On the property.
           9  A.  In the driveway right along the southeast, 14135 Southeast
          10  Clackamas River Drive.
          11  Q.  When you say in the driveway, you mean firmly on the
          12  property, or out, out by the road?
          13  A.  Judging on my readings I was getting, it was on the
          14  property.
          15           THE COURT:  Recross.
          16           MR. LEEN:  Thank you.
          17                         RECROSS-EXAMINATION
          18  BY MR. LEEN:
          19  Q.  Agent Meyer, at any time that you were tracking the vehicle
          20  between November 6th and Thanksgiving when the tracking device
          21  was removed, did the vehicle ever go to the actual residence of
          22  Special Agent McNall?
          23           MR. LONDON:  Objection.
          24  A.  I don't know.
          25           THE COURT:  What's the question?
           1           MR. LEEN:  I say, at any time between November 6th and
           2  when the tracking device was removed, did the vehicle ever go to
           3  the actual residence of Special Agent McNall?
           4           MR. LONDON:  The objection, Your Honor, is that,
           5  frankly, whether it did or didn't is irrelevant.  If he were to
           6  answer that in the affirmative it might, it might yield
           7  information about where Agent McNall actually lives, and we do
           8  not want that revealed.
           9           MR. LEEN:  Well, Mr. Bell obviously would know it if he
          10  went there.
          11           THE COURT:  Well, just a moment.  Just a moment.
          12      I will sustain the objection.
          13  Q.  (By Mr. Leen)  At any time did -- when you tracked the --
          14  Mr. Bell's vehicle, did it go to any other residences in Oregon?
          15  A.  I'm sure it -- it must have gone to some other residences.
          16  I'm not aware of which residences.
          17  Q.  Did you see it go into Oregon on other days?
          18  A.  No, I did not.
          19  Q.  So that's just an assumption?
          20  A.  That's correct.
          21  Q.  Do you have any knowledge, other than this particular
          22  tracking on November 10th, that the vehicle crossed over the
          23  Columbia River into Oregon?
          24  A.  I do not recall any other.
          25           MR. LEEN:  Thank you very much.
           1           THE COURT:  The witness may be excused.
           2      (Witness excused.)
           3           THE COURT:  Next witness
           4               KEVIN LAYNG, PLAINTIFF'S WITNESS, SWORN
           5           THE CLERK:  Please be seated.
           6      Please state your full name and spell your last name.
           7           THE WITNESS:  Kevin Layng.  L-a-y-n-g.
           8                        DIRECT EXAMINATION
           9  BY MR. LONDON:
          10  Q.  Mr. Layng, can you begin, please, by just telling us how you
          11  are employed?
          12  A.  I'm a patrol sergeant with the Clackamas County Sheriff's
          13  Office.
          14  Q.  Were you on duty a little bit after midnight on the morning
          15  of November 10th of last year?
          16  A.  Yes, I was.
          17  Q.  At that point, did you have opportunity, or around that
          18  time, to have any contact with anybody that you see here in the
          19  courtroom today?
          20  A.  Yes.
          21  Q.  With whom was that contact made?
          22  A.  That was with Mr. James Bell, who is seated to my left.
          23  Q.  All right.  How did that contact come about?
          24           THE COURT:  Just a moment.  Can you do better than
          25  that, counsel?
           1           MR. LONDON:  Yes.
           2  Q.  (By Mr. London)  I'm going to ask you if you are identifying
           3  defendant here seated at counsel table in the light blue suit?
           4  A.  Yes, I am.
           5           MR. LONDON:  The record will reflect the defendant has
           6  been identified.
           7  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Can you please tell us now how you had
           8  opportunity to come into contact --
           9           THE COURT:  Just a moment.  The exhibit might be in one
          10  of the juror's way.
          11  Q.  (By Mr. London)  May I ask you -- do you want me to reask
          12  you the question?
          13           THE COURT:  Go ahead.
          14  A.  I'm okay.
          15  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Okay.
          16  A.  I was in routine patrol.  I work in an unmarked patrol car,
          17  and I work from 4:00 p.m. until 2:00 in the morning.  About
          18  12:52 a.m. I received a message from our dispatch that Special
          19  Agent Jeff Gordon was asking for us to check the area in the
          20  14000 block of Clackamas River Drive, which is in central
          21  Clackamas County, for a person that they were conducting
          22  surveillance on that may have been en route to the home of a,
          23  either an ATF agent or the relative of an ATF agent.
          24      About 12 minutes after I received the message to conduct
          25  this area check, I -- I was on Clackamas River Drive, about a
           1  mile east of the address we were going to check, and I saw the
           2  car that was described to me as belonging to Mr. Bell pass by
           3  heading eastbound as I headed westbound.  That was the only
           4  other car I saw on that roadway.  It's fairly rural in that
           5  area, there's not much traffic, so it was easy to spot this car
           6  as it came by me, and I confirmed that that was the license
           7  plate that was given to me in the information from dispatch.
           8  Q.  Do you recall what the make of the car was?
           9  A.  Yes.  It was a Nissan Maxima.
          10  Q.  Color?
          11  A.  Cream or yellow color.
          12  Q.  Okay.  Continue.  What happened after you saw the car go by?
          13  A.  I immediately told our dispatch center that I had seen the
          14  car pass by me.  I turned around and followed it.  As I followed
          15  it --
          16  Q.  Let me stop you just for a second.  What direction was the
          17  car going at this point?
          18  A.  The car was eastbound.
          19  Q.  Would that be heading back towards the freeway then?
          20  A.  No.  In -- not directly, no.  We ended up making several
          21  turns.  It took us back towards the freeway, but --
          22  Q.  Continue.
          23  A.  As the car headed eastbound away from the 14000 block, I
          24  turned around and I told my dispatch center that I was following
          25  the car and I asked them to confirm the license plate that they
           1  had been given, which they did.  It was the same Washington
           2  plate on the car that I was following that I had received in the
           3  initial information.  So I had two other cars in -- routine
           4  patrol cars there in the area, Steve Shelley and Jeff Smith, go
           5  to the house, the address that was given to us, and check the
           6  residence to make sure they were okay while I just continued to
           7  follow this car.  By the time they checked the house and told me
           8  the residents were okay, we were about -- I had followed the car
           9  for about six minutes, and three to four miles away from the
          10  spot where I originally stopped it.
          11      In that amount of --
          12  Q.  I'm sorry, you say "stopped" it.  Do you mean spotted it,
          13  three or four miles from where --
          14  A.  Correct.  Yes.
          15  Q.  Continue.
          16  A.  Part of the information that I had received from Agent
          17  Gordon was that Mr. Bell was supposed to be the driver of this
          18  car and that he had -- was known to be in possession of chemical
          19  agents or nerve agents and he could possibly be dangerous.  We
          20  were also -- I was also told through dispatch, I hadn't talked
          21  to Deputy -- I'm sorry -- Agent Gordon in person yet, but I was
          22  told by dispatch that they wanted this person stopped and
          23  detained and that someone would come down to contact him.  One
          24  of the federal agents would come down and contact him.
          25      While I followed Mr. Bell's car, within about a half mile of
           1  the location where I finally stopped him, he made a couple of
           2  turns as the road wound through a residential area, and at two
           3  different corners I saw his car cross over the center line of
           4  the roadway by about a foot, so I also had some local
           5  infraction, reason to stop the car, which I did on 122nd Avenue
           6  near Sunnyside Road in Clackamas.
           7           MR. LONDON:  I would like to ask that the image be
           8  published for the witness.  The location where the tracking
           9  device stops.
          10  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Can you see that in front of you?
          11           MR. LONDON:  Not at the house.  Where the traffic stop
          12  is made.
          13      This will be a moment.
          14           THE COURT:  Can the jury see it now?  Any member of the
          15  jury can't see it?
          16           MR. LONDON:  It's not on the monitor yet.  We will put
          17  it up as soon as we have got to where ....
          18      All right.  Now we can publish it for the jury as well.
          19  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Do you see the image in front of you now?
          20  A.  Yes, I do.
          21  Q.  Do you recognize the street and the address?
          22  A.  Yes, I recognize the street and the cross streets.
          23  Q.  Does that correspond to where you made the stop of the
          24  vehicle?
          25  A.  Yes.  Where the cluster of dots are located, it's actually
           1  on the west side of the road, where the vehicle was stopped on
           2  the east side of the road, but other than that it corresponds
           3  for north and south.
           4  Q.  All right.  Now, did you get out of your car?
           5  A.  Yes, I did.
           6  Q.  And did you approach the driver?
           7  A.  I approached the car and had the driver step out.
           8  Q.  All right.  And was Mr. Bell the driver?
           9  A.  Yes, he was.
          10  Q.  Was there anybody else in the car?
          11  A.  No.
          12  Q.  Did you speak to Mr. Bell?
          13  A.  Yes, I did.
          14  Q.  What did you ask him?
          15  A.  Well, I asked him several things.  Initially I asked if
          16  there was anything in the car that would be a danger to me or
          17  anything on his person, and I patted him down for weapons.
          18  Q.  All right.  And did you see anything in the car?
          19  A.  At that time, no.  I made a couple trips back up and was
          20  standing around the car, but at that very moment I didn't see
          21  anything in the car as far as weapons.
          22  Q.  All right.  Did -- I think there's a reference in a report
          23  of yours to seeing a Thomas Guide map.  Is that correct?
          24  A.  Yes.
          25  Q.  What page was it opened to?
           1  A.  There was a Thomas Guide map opened and laying on the
           2  passenger seat of the car that was opened to a page showing the
           3  Clackamas River Drive area on the page facing up.
           4  Q.  Was there anything else in the car that you recall?
           5  A.  Yes.  There was a metal flashlight similar to a mag light or
           6  similar to the lights that we carry, and a yellow notepad with
           7  some notes scribbled on the face of it.
           8  Q.  All right.
           9           MR. LONDON:  Will you show the witness Exhibit 220.
          10  Q.  (By Mr. London)  All right, can you look to the notebooks to
          11  your right and find the binder that corresponds, that would have
          12  Exhibit 220 in it, and look at that exhibit, please.
          13  A.  220?
          14  Q.  Two two zero.
          15  A.  Okay.  Exhibit 220 is a picture from the rear of Mr. Bell's
          16  vehicle.  The vehicle I stopped him in that evening.
          17  Q.  All right.  Did you take that picture?
          18  A.  I did not take it.  It was one of the other deputies there.
          19           MR. LONDON:  All right.  I'd offer 220.
          20           MR. LEEN:  One second, Your Honor.
          21      No objection.
          22           THE COURT:  220 is admitted.
          23      (Exhibit No. 220 was admitted.)
          24  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Can you turn to the next one, 221, and look
          25  at that, please.
           1  A.  Exhibit 221 is a picture taken from the driver's side window
           2  of this vehicle, and visible from there laying on the passenger
           3  seat is the notepad, the map, and the flashlight I described
           4  from the evening of the stop.
           5  Q.  Is that the Thomas Guide underneath the pad?
           6  A.  Yes.
           7  Q.  And the flashlight.  All right.
           8           MR. LONDON:  We offer 221.
           9           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
          10           THE COURT:  221 is admitted.
          11      (Exhibit No. 221 was admitted.)
          12           MR. LONDON:  And that can be published.  And 220 can be
          13  published.
          14  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Did you ask Mr. Bell if he had been out at
          15  the Groener residence on South Clackamas Drive?
          16  A.  Yes.
          17  Q.  What did he say?
          18  A.  When I -- I didn't know specifically the name Groener.  I
          19  asked him if he had been at that -- at an address on Clackamas
          20  River Drive, and he wouldn't answer any of my questions.  He
          21  would -- when I asked him a question, he would answer that with
          22  a question.  He seemed to be fishing for information from me.
          23  Q.  What kind of information from you?
          24  A.  At first he said that it was curious that it would take
          25  three or four patrol cars to stop him on the roadway; asked why
           1  I was really stopping him.  When I asked him what -- if he had
           2  been out on Clackamas River Drive, he asked me why I would think
           3  he was out on Clackamas River Drive and who I had been talking
           4  to, and that's just how the conversation went.
           5  Q.  Was that pretty much the end of your contact with him that
           6  evening?
           7  A.  Yes, at the traffic stop.
           8           MR. LONDON:  Thank you.  No further questions.
           9           THE COURT:  Cross-examination.
          10                        CROSS-EXAMINATION
          11  BY MR. LEEN:
          12  Q.  Good afternoon, Officer Layng.
          13  A.  Good afternoon.
          14  Q.  Officer Layng, did you find any weapons on Mr. Bell when you
          15  patted him down?
          16  A.  No, I did not.
          17  Q.  Did you see any chemical agents or any nerve agents?
          18  A.  No.
          19  Q.  Approximately how long was Mr. Bell detained?
          20  A.  Probably 30 to 40 minutes.
          21  Q.  Was he issued any citations?
          22  A.  No.
          23  Q.  Did any federal agents come to the scene of the stop?
          24  A.  Agent Mike McNall.
          25  Q.  Did he speak to you at the scene of the stop?
           1  A.  Briefly, yes.
           2  Q.  What did the two of you talk about?
           3  A.  I don't recall exactly, but he was concerned about the
           4  address on Clackamas River Drive.
           5  Q.  And then Mr. Bell was allowed to leave?
           6  A.  Yes.
           7  Q.  Was Mr. Bell handcuffed during this period of time?
           8  A.  Yes.
           9  Q.  Did you ever pull your weapon out?
          10  A.  No.
          11  Q.  Or did any of the other officers?
          12  A.  No.
          13           MR. LEEN:  Thank you.
          14           THE COURT:  Redirect.
          15           MR. LONDON:  No, Your Honor.
          16           THE COURT:  You may step down.
          17      (Witness excused.)
          18           THE COURT:  Next.
          19             RANDY R. OXFORD, PLAINTIFF'S WITNESS, SWORN
          20           THE CLERK:  Please be seated.
          21      Please state your full name and spell your last name.
          22           THE WITNESS:  My name is Randy Ross Oxford.
          23  O-x-f-o-r-d.
          24                        DIRECT EXAMINATION
          25  BY MR. LONDON:
           1  Q.  Deputy, can you tell us how you are employed, please?
           2  A.  I'm a deputy sheriff assigned to the criminal division of
           3  the Clackamas County Sheriff's Office, and as part of those
           4  duties, I'm a hazardous materials technician.
           5  Q.  Were you on duty in the early morning of November 10th,
           6  2000, down in Clackamas County?
           7  A.  I was called from my home and summoned to that address.
           8  Q.  When you say that address, I didn't mention one, but I think
           9  you are anticipating, probably.  I was going to ask you if you
          10  then had occasion in the course of your duties to respond to an
          11  address in Clackamas County, on South Clackamas Drive, 14135
          12  specifically?
          13  A.  Yes, sir, I did.
          14  Q.  Why were you called out to that address?
          15  A.  As part of my job as a hazardous materials technician, the
          16  deputies that were on the scene at that location had information
          17  that there were notes placed on two vehicles that might be
          18  chemically contaminated.
          19  Q.  So notes had been found on vehicles at the address by other
          20  deputies, is that correct?
          21  A.  That's correct.
          22  Q.  And they called you because of your expertise or your
          23  training in dealing with things that have been potentially --
          24  that are chemically dangerous?
          25  A.  Yes, sir.
           1  Q.  All right.  So what did you do?
           2  A.  At that point the two deputies that were at the location
           3  were Deputy Shelley and Deputy Miller, and at that point Deputy
           4  Miller directed me to the vehicles.  One was in a carport that
           5  was attached to a residence, and then behind that residence is
           6  another residence and there was another vehicle that was parked
           7  out in the open air, kind of in a driveway-type area.  Each of
           8  those vehicles had a paper note under the windshield of the
           9  vehicle.
          10      At that point, I --
          11  Q.  I want to stop you for a moment.
          12  A.  I'm sorry.
          13  Q.  Please look at the image that's on the screen in front of
          14  you.  That's an aerial photo of that address.  Can you be
          15  specific about where this carport was, where these vehicles
          16  were, where the note was found on the vehicle that was in the
          17  carport, and so on.
          18  A.  I'm not sure exactly how I do that, sir.
          19  Q.  All right.
          20  A.  You just want me to physically describe it?
          21  Q.  If you can point out where the carport is, I will try and
          22  point to it with this corresponding pointer here.
          23  A.  Okay.  The carport is located to the right of the larger
          24  residence.
          25  Q.  All right.  Is that where the arrow is now pointing?
           1  A.  Yes.
           2  Q.  And you saw one of the notes on a windshield of a car that
           3  was parked in that carport?
           4  A.  Yes.
           5  Q.  Okay.  Continue.
           6  A.  And then if you come out of that carport and down the
           7  roadway to the left of the screen, there's a little driving area
           8  that you can see there, and that's where the second vehicle was
           9  parked with the second note.
          10  Q.  All right.  There's an exhibit binder next to you there, and
          11  I would like you -- there are several.  Please find the one that
          12  would have Exhibits 226 and 227 in it.  Have a look at those
          13  exhibits, if you would.
          14      Actually, what I would like you to look at is 226A and
          15  227A.
          16  A.  Okay.
          17  Q.  Do you recognize those?
          18  A.  To the best of my recollection, on 226 was the original note
          19  that appears somewhat changed.
          20  Q.  Yes.  And the testimony has been that a chemical solution
          21  was applied to that for the purposes of looking for fingerprints
          22  and that 226A was a photocopy before the solution was applied.
          23  So looking at 226A, does that appear to be one of the notes or a
          24  copy of one of the notes that you found on the windshield before
          25  any chemical solution would have been applied for purposes of
           1  fingerprints?
           2  A.  Yes.
           3  Q.  All right.  The same with 227.
           4  A.  Yes, sir.
           5  Q.  All right.
           6           MR. LONDON:  I offer 226.
           7           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
           8           THE COURT:  It's admitted.
           9      (Exhibit No. 226 was admitted.)
          10           MR. LONDON:  227.
          11           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
          12           THE COURT:  Admitted.
          13      (Exhibit No. 227 was admitted.)
          14           MR. LONDON:  226A.
          15           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
          16           THE COURT:  It's admitted.
          17      (Exhibit No. 226A was admitted.)
          18           MR. LONDON:  And 227A.
          19           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
          20           THE COURT:  It's admitted.
          21      (Exhibit No. 227A was admitted.)
          22  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Would you please look at Exhibit 222.  Do
          23  you recognize that?
          24  A.  Yes.
          25  Q.  What is it?
           1  A.  This was the black Volkswagen that was parked to the left of
           2  the main residence where the carport was with the note on the
           3  windshield.
           4           MR. LONDON:  We offer 222.
           5           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
           6           THE COURT:  It's admitted.
           7      (Exhibit No. 222 was admitted.)
           8           MR. LONDON:  Please publish.
           9  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Could you do the same, please, with 223.
          10  A.  That's the same vehicle from a further distance.
          11           MR. LONDON:  We offer 223.
          12           THE COURT:  It's admitted.
          13      (Exhibit No. 223 was admitted.)
          14  Q.  (By Mr. London)  224, please.
          15  A.  224 is the vehicle that was in the carport with the note on
          16  the windshield as I first observed it.
          17           MR. LONDON:  We offer 224.
          18           THE COURT:  It's admitted.
          19      (Exhibit No. 224 was admitted.)
          20           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
          21           MR. LONDON:  Publish that.
          22  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Is that vehicle facing the wall of the
          23  carport or is it parked in backwards?
          24  A.  It's facing the wall of the carport.
          25  Q.  Please look at 225.
           1  A.  That's the same vehicle in the carport, just at a closer
           2  shot.
           3  Q.  Now, is that the form that you found the note in?  Or was
           4  the note -- had the note been bagged by somebody?
           5  A.  The note had been bagged.
           6  Q.  But then left at the location where it had been found?
           7  A.  Yes.
           8  Q.  All right.
           9           MR. LONDON:  I publish 225 -- I offer 225.
          10           MR. LEEN:  May I voir dire on it?
          11           THE COURT:  Yes
          12                        VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
          13  BY MR. LEEN:
          14  Q.  I was unclear of your answer.  Was it bagged by the police
          15  or was it found in the baggie when it was originally observed by
          16  you?
          17  A.  It was in the bag when I originally found it.
          18  Q.  Okay, thank you.
          19      And to your knowledge, you were told that that was the
          20  condition that it was first observed?
          21  A.  I don't recall that, sir.
          22  Q.  I'm trying to figure out, do you know if the police put the
          23  baggie there or the person who left it there put the baggie on
          24  the car?
          25  A.  I don't really recall, sir.
           1           MR. LEEN:  No objection.
           2           THE COURT:  225 is admitted.
           3      (Exhibit No. 225 was admitted.)
           4                   DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continuing)
           5  BY Mr. London.
           6  Q.  Let me ask you this.  Did you examine the bag?
           7  A.  Pardon me, sir?
           8  Q.  Did you examine the bag?
           9  A.  The bag?
          10  Q.  Yes.  Did you examine the note in the bag?
          11  A.  Yes.
          12  Q.  All right.  Was that a police evidence bag or was that just
          13  a regular Ziploc bag?
          14  A.  It's a Ziploc bag.
          15           MR. LONDON:  I offer 225, and we ask to publish 225.
          16           THE COURT:  225 is in.
          17      Go ahead.
          18  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Do you have any knowledge of whether that
          19  bag was on the note when it had been placed on the windshield or
          20  whether law enforcement who responded to the scene put it in the
          21  bag?
          22  A.  I don't recall that, sir.
          23  Q.  All right.  Fair enough.
          24      What did you do with these notes that you recovered?
          25  A.  I placed them into a coffee can, and as a result of it, the
           1  coffee can was sealed and it was transported to the Clackamas
           2  County hazardous material locker, evidence locker, and it was
           3  placed there pending further investigation.
           4  Q.  Now, you testified that you came to the scene because you
           5  had experience with things that might pose a chemical danger.
           6  Did these notes in any way turn out to pose a chemical danger,
           7  to your knowledge?
           8  A.  I do not know, sir.
           9           MR. LONDON:  Nothing further.
          10           THE COURT:  Cross-examination.
          11           MR. LEEN:  No question.
          12           THE COURT:  The witness may be excused.
          13      (Witness excused.)
          14           THE COURT:  Next witness.
          15           MR. LONDON:  Call John Branton
          16              JOHN BRANTON, PLAINTIFF'S WITNESS, SWORN
          17           THE CLERK:  Please be seated.
          18      Please state your full name and spell your last name.
          19           THE WITNESS:  John Branton.  It's B-r-a-n-t-o-n.
          20                        DIRECT EXAMINATION
          21  BY MR. LONDON:
          22  Q.  Mr. Branton, good afternoon.  Can you begin, please, just by
          23  telling us how you are employed?
          24  A.  I work for the Columbian newspaper as the police reporter,
          25  and I've done that for about 15 years, and I've written quite a
           1  few stories about Jim Bell.
           2  Q.  Have you met Mr. Bell before?
           3  A.  Yes.
           4  Q.  Not just interviewed him on the telephone?
           5  A.  No.  I believe -- I've talked to him in person as well.
           6  Q.  I would like you to look at Exhibit 226A, which is going to
           7  appear on your screen.  If it's not legible to you, then I will
           8  actually have you look at the actual one in the binder.
           9      Can you see that on your screen well enough?
          10      Can you read it?
          11  A.  Me?
          12  Q.  Yes.
          13  A.  Yes.  It's sideways, but, yeah, I can see it says -- yeah, I
          14  can read it.
          15           MR. LONDON:  All right.  I would like to publish this
          16  for the jury at this point.
          17           THE COURT:  Go ahead.
          18           MR. LONDON:  Everybody will have to crane your necks a
          19  bit.
          20  Q.  (By Mr. London)  If you can just read that for us, I would
          21  appreciate it.
          22  A.  "Please call (Vancouver) Columbian Newspaper reporter John
          23  Branton at 1-360-759-8012.  Very important."  It's a small slip
          24  of paper with that written on it.
          25  Q.  All right.  Did you write that?
           1  A.  No.
           2  Q.  Did you place that on the windshield of a car at an address
           3  on South Clackamas Drive on the -- early in the morning of
           4  November 10 --
           5  A.  No.
           6  Q.  -- 2000.  Do you have any idea why that note was placed on
           7  those windshields?
           8  A.  I do now.
           9  Q.  Had you been engaged in any interviews with Mr. Bell at
          10  about that time?
          11  A.  Yes.  We met once in a restaurant, I think we talked on the
          12  phone a couple of times, and he also came to the newspaper and
          13  we talked out in the lobby of the newspaper.  So I talked to him
          14  about three or four times during that time.
          15  Q.  Okay.  And, in fact, did you interview him around November
          16  6th and 8th for an article that you wrote that actually appeared
          17  on November 9th?
          18  A.  Yes.
          19  Q.  All right.  Would you look at Exhibit 214, please.  It will
          20  be in a binder to your right.
          21           THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry.
          22           THE CLERK:  That's okay.  It's in this book right
          23  here.  214.
          24  A.  Exhibit what, please?
          25  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Two one four; 214.
           1  A.  Oh, are you talking about my story?
           2  Q.  Yes.
           3  A.  Okay, I've got it.
           4  Q.  Do you recognize that?  Is that the article you wrote and
           5  published on November 9th?
           6  A.  Yes.
           7           MR. LONDON:  I offer 214.
           8           MR. LEEN:  I object, Your Honor.  There's a -- may we
           9  take something up sidebar, Your Honor?
          10           MR. LONDON:  Actually, Your Honor, I don't need to
          11  offer that exhibit if that will solve the problem.
          12           MR. LEEN:  That will solve the problem.
          13           MR. LONDON:  All right.
          14  Q.  (Mr. London)  I just want to ask you about some things that
          15  appear in that article.
          16  A.  Okay.
          17  Q.  In this article there's a statement which you, as a
          18  reporter, attribute to Mr. Bell in which Mr. Bell admits using
          19  Oregon Department of Motor Vehicle material to trace cars and
          20  indicating that he had gone to the homes of government agents
          21  and had taken pictures.  Is that -- do those statements
          22  attributed to Mr. Bell accurately reflect something he told you
          23  in the course of the interviews?
          24  A.  Yes.  I believe he told me that on November 8th when we
          25  talked in the lobby of the Columbian, and basically what he said
           1  was, in November 1998 some -- he wrote down the license numbers
           2  of some cars that he thought were following him.  And he thought
           3  that they were government agents doing some kind of improper
           4  surveillance, and so he obtained some Oregon motor vehicle
           5  licenses -- or records, ran those license numbers, got the name
           6  and address of the people, and he went to their home and he said
           7  he was basically taking pictures and things like that.
           8           MR. LONDON:  Thank you.  Nothing further of this
           9  witness.
          10           THE COURT:  Cross-examination.
          11           MR. LEEN:  Thank you, Your Honor.  One second.
          12                        CROSS-EXAMINATION
          13  BY MR. LEEN:
          14  Q.  Good afternoon, Mr. Branton.
          15  A.  Good afternoon.
          16  Q.  Mr. Branton, you say that you, over the past several years,
          17  interviewed Mr. Bell?
          18  A.  Yes, several times.
          19  Q.  And has he told you of his belief in certain government
          20  conspiracies and government illegalities?
          21  A.  Yes, he has.
          22  Q.  And did he tell you that he felt that they were directed
          23  toward him?
          24  A.  Yes.
          25  Q.  When did he start telling you about these beliefs that he
           1  had?
           2  A.  I would want to say -- actually, years ago, but especially
           3  beginning about April 2000.  And he told me, as the Columbian
           4  reporter, that he was going to be gathering materials to prove
           5  that the government had acted improperly in his case.
           6  Q.  So he said that he was -- he was engaging in research to
           7  actually prove what many people would say were delusions or
           8  figments of his imagination?
           9  A.  Well, I haven't characterized them as that, but those
          10  were -- those were the things that he said he believed, and he
          11  said he was trying to gather proof that those occurred.
          12  Q.  And did he tell you how he was trying to gather proof?
          13  Either generally or specifically.
          14  A.  Well, he was -- he was basically studying court records and,
          15  like I said before, he was tracing back the license numbers of
          16  some people that he thought followed him.  I'm not too sure what
          17  all he was doing, but he made it clear that he was trying to
          18  prove some kind of improper activity on the part of the
          19  government.
          20  Q.  Do you ever do any investigative reporting?
          21  A.  Very little because I'm basically a beat reporter who covers
          22  the police in a county of 350,000 people, and I'm the only
          23  police reporter, so.
          24  Q.  Do you do research before you write a story?
          25  A.  Yes.
           1  Q.  Try to verify certain facts before you publish something as
           2  newsworthy?
           3           MR. LONDON:  Your Honor, I'm going to object.
           4           THE COURT:  Sustain the objection.
           5  Q.  (By Mr. Leen)  In the article of November 9th that counsel
           6  made reference to, did Mr. Bell tell you -- and I'm reading,
           7  because it's in quotes, "They are after me because I'm getting
           8  way too close"?
           9  A.  Yes.
          10  Q.  And his belief was that they -- that the government wanted
          11  to find out how close he was to proving the theories that he had
          12  told you about?
          13  A.  That's what he meant by saying that, yes.
          14  Q.  Did Mr. Bell also tell you that he has threatened no one?
          15  A.  Yes.  I asked Jim if he -- if he planned to harm anyone or
          16  if he had threatened anyone, and he said no.
          17  Q.  Did he say he had no plans to hurt anyone?
          18  A.  Yes.  He said he had no plans to hurt anyone.
          19  Q.  Did he tell you that federal agents, they believe that "the
          20  very fact that I know where they live constitutes a threat"?
          21  A.  Yes.  He said that.
          22  Q.  And he told you that he felt that the government hated
          23  them -- hated him?
          24  A.  Yes.
          25  Q.  And that he believed that the government agents were
           1  crooked?
           2  A.  That's right.
           3           MR. LEEN:  Thank you very much.
           4           THE COURT:  Redirect.
           5                       REDIRECT EXAMINATION
           6  BY MR. LONDON:
           7  Q.  Will you turn to Exhibit 143, please.
           8           THE WITNESS:  Thank you.  143?
           9           THE CLERK:  Uh-huh.
          10  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Do you recognize that?  Is that an email
          11  that you received from Mr. Bell?
          12  A.  Yes.
          13  Q.  And does it reference doing a road trip that would worry the
          14  feds?
          15  A.  It says, "I did a road trip a couple of days ago which
          16  probably worries the Feds," and he mentions that he wanted to
          17  ask McNall about Ryan Thomas Lund.
          18  Q.  You did actually receive this at the time?
          19  A.  Yes.
          20           MR. LONDON:  Thanks.  Nothing further.
          21           THE COURT:  Recross.
          22           MR. LEEN:  Thank you.
          23                         RECROSS-EXAMINATION
          24  BY MR. LEEN:
          25  Q.  Referring to that same email, sir.
           1  A.  Oh.
           2  Q.  If you don't mind.  143.
           3  A.  Okay.  Got it.
           4  Q.  The subject matter is, Re:  Harry Browne in Portland,
           5  11/1/00.  Who's Harry Browne, do you know?
           6  A.  No.  You know what this is -- I don't know who Harry Browne
           7  is.  This is -- this message contains some -- I believe it's
           8  some of Jim's earlier messages to someone else.  I don't know
           9  who Harry Browne is.
          10  Q.  So if he would email you and there would be a header or a
          11  subject matter, would you just type a response and not change
          12  the subject header?
          13  A.  I don't know if I typed a response.
          14  Q.  And when was the first time he started to talk to you about
          15  the fact that he believes that he had been assaulted by Ryan
          16  Thomas Lund at the direction of government agents?
          17  A.  I would say about April of 2000 is when I started hearing
          18  that pretty regularly from Jim.
          19  Q.  Okay.  Was that -- did you understand that that was the
          20  reason why he was doing his investigation?
          21  A.  Yes.  Do you want me to explain what the idea of it was
          22  or --
          23  Q.  Yes, sir.
          24  A.  Jim -- Ryan Thomas Lund is the person who Jim says assaulted
          25  him when he was in one of his previous cases.
           1  Q.  In the Federal Detention Center?
           2  A.  Yeah.  And he thought that Ryan Lund had been provided --
           3  provoked to do that by the government in that they were trying
           4  to force him into making a guilty plea.  So that's -- that's who
           5  Ryan Thomas Lund is, and I don't know if any of that is true or
           6  not.
           7  Q.  All right.  And did he tell you that this was the theory
           8  that he was trying to prove by his activities?
           9  A.  That was one of his theories, yes.
          10  Q.  Is that what he meant when he said, I'm getting too close,
          11  or they think I'm getting too close?
          12  A.  Well, Jim had a number of objections that he had made about
          13  the government, and Ryan Thomas Lund was just one of several.
          14  So I don't know -- I have no way of knowing which of those he
          15  was talking about in this case.
          16  Q.  And you spoke -- as I say, you said you've spoken to him
          17  numerous times.
          18  A.  Yes.
          19  Q.  Was it your impression that he believed these things to be
          20  true?
          21  A.  Yes.
          22           MR. LEEN:  Thank you.
          23           THE COURT:  The witness may be excused?
          24           MR. LONDON:  I have one or two questions.
          25           THE COURT:  All right.  Are you recalling him?
           1           MR. LONDON:  Yes.  I'm not recalling him, just
           2  redirect, Your Honor.
           3           THE COURT:  All right, redirect.
           4                       REDIRECT EXAMINATION
           5  BY MR. LONDON:
           6  Q.  Did Mr. Bell ever happen to mention to you he actually
           7  entered his guilty plea in 1997, well before Ryan Lund assaulted
           8  him in Federal Detention Center in SeaTac?
           9  A.  No.  And I don't know whether that's true or not.  I don't
          10  know the timing on that.
          11  Q.  I'm just asking you if he ever admitted that to you?
          12  A.  No, he never said that.
          13  Q.  Did he ever explain to you how showing up at the home
          14  address of Mike McNall would help him confirm this theory of his
          15  in any way?
          16  A.  No.  And I have to admit, I don't -- I didn't understand
          17  what his point was in going over there to someone's home.
          18  Q.  You --
          19  A.  I asked him if he meant to hurt someone, and he said no.
          20  I'm not sure what his point was.
          21  Q.  Did you once ask him, in fact, if he was a terrorist?  Did
          22  you ask him to acknowledge whether or not he was a terrorist?
          23      Do you recall an email exchange you might have had with him
          24  where you said, "Are you a terrorist?" and he refused to answer
          25  that either way?
           1  A.  I don't recall that, but I have asked him -- I don't recall
           2  that exact wording, but I have asked him questions like that in
           3  the past, you know, just trying to figure out, you know, are
           4  you -- you know, are you serious about hurting someone or are
           5  you just talking, you know.  And I've asked him that kind of
           6  question many times.
           7  Q.  And what kind of answers has he given you?
           8  A.  Well, it's always seemed to me that he was just talking.
           9  Q.  Now, did he ever explain to you how showing up at somebody's
          10  house would aid this investigation of this theory that he had?
          11  A.  No.  And I didn't understand it -- I didn't understand that,
          12  either.
          13  Q.  Now, you met with him, I believe you said, at the Columbian,
          14  correct, at least once for the purpose of doing an interview?
          15  A.  November 8th we met at the Columbian.
          16  Q.  So he knew how to find you for the purpose of that interview
          17  at your building, at your professional location, your office,
          18  correct?
          19  A.  Yes.
          20  Q.  He didn't show up at your house for the purpose of being
          21  interviewed, did he?
          22  A.  No.
          23           MR. LONDON:  All right.  Thank you.
          24           THE COURT:  Witness may be excused?
          25           MR. LEEN:  Yes, Your Honor.
           1           MR. LONDON:  No.  One moment, Your Honor.  I have one
           2  matter to take up.
           3           THE COURT:  Just a minute.
           4           MR. LONDON:  It's going to take but one second.
           5  Q.  (Mr. London)  I would like to put up an exhibit for you to
           6  look at.
           7      Can you see that email that's on your screen?
           8  A.  Yes.
           9           MR. LEEN:  I'm sorry, what exhibit number?
          10           MR. LONDON:  Scroll to the top.
          11  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Do you see the header information on this
          12  email?
          13  A.  Yes.
          14  Q.  All right.  Does this appear to be an email exchange between
          15  you and Mr. Bell?
          16  A.  Yes.
          17  Q.  All right.  Do you see the caret information that indicates
          18  who's talking?  We call it a caret.  It's the little, the little
          19  greater than sign.  Do you see where it says, "Hey, Jim."
          20  A.  Yes.
          21  Q.  "I take issue with one statement you made."  Is that
          22  something that you wrote to him?
          23  A.  Yes.
          24  Q.  Made to him?
          25  A.  Yes.
           1  Q.  All right.  I would like to scrolling down.
           2      All right.  Do you see that point five there, number five,
           3  with the caret?
           4  A.  Yes.
           5  Q.  All right.  The text that's offset by the caret, that's you
           6  asking him questions, and then the text that is not offset by a
           7  caret, that's his answer, correct?
           8  A.  That's right.
           9  Q.  Okay.  Please read the section that you wrote, "Are you so
          10  angry."
          11  A.  Okay.  I wrote to Jim, "Are you so angry that you are going
          12  to hurt someone?  Or are you a nonviolent person who will
          13  confine himself to speaking out against the government?"
          14  Q.  And what did he answer?
          15  A.  His response was, "No comment for now.  Judge for yourself
          16  when you see me."
          17  Q.  All right.  "No comment for now."  Does that -- does that
          18  accurately reflect what you remember in your email exchange with
          19  him?
          20  A.  Yes.
          21           MR. LONDON:  Thanks.
          22           THE COURT:  Is that it?
          23           MR. LONDON:  Yes.
          24           THE COURT:  The witness may be excused?
          25           MR. LEEN:  No further questions.
           1           THE COURT:  The witness may be excused.
           2           THE WITNESS:  Thank you.
           3      (Witness excused.)
           4           THE COURT:  Next.
           5           MR. LONDON:  Your Honor, this next witness will
           6  probably take a bit of time.  I don't know when you want to take
           7  the recess.
           8           THE COURT:  Take a 15-minutes recess.  Do not discuss
           9  the case among yourselves or with anyone else during the
          10  recess.  Please go to the jury room.
          11      (Jury excused; 3:47 p.m.)
          12           THE COURT:  Do you have anything to take up?
          13           MR. LONDON:  No, Your Honor.
          14           THE COURT:  Court's in recess.
          15      (Recessed at 2:48 p.m.)
          16      (Jury not present.)
          17           THE COURT:  Anything to take up before the jury?
          18           MR. LONDON:  No.
          19           MR. LEEN:  No, Your Honor.
          20           THE COURT:  Bring the jury.
          21      (Jury present; 3:15 p.m.)
          22           THE COURT:  All right, the jury has returned.
          23      Next witness.
          24           MR. LONDON:  Call Mike McNall.
           1           THE CLERK:  Please be seated.
           2      Please state your full name and spell your last name.
           3           THE WITNESS:  It's Michael McNall.  M-c-N-a-l-l.
           4                        DIRECT EXAMINATION
           5  BY MR. LONDON:
           6  Q.  Sir, how are you employed?
           7  A.  I'm a special agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and
           8  Firearms.
           9  Q.  And how long have you been employed in that capacity?
          10  A.  Eleven-and-a-half years.
          11  Q.  Where do you work?
          12  A.  Portland, Oregon.
          13  Q.  And what is the address of your job?  In other words, what's
          14  your work address?
          15  A.  1500 Southwest First Avenue, Room 680, Portland, Oregon.
          16  Q.  And is that address publicly available?  Can anyone look up
          17  ATF in the phone book?
          18  A.  Yes, they can.
          19  Q.  All right.  So if I wanted to go speak to you about any
          20  matter, I could look up your work address in a Portland phone
          21  directory and go to that address and ask for you?
          22  A.  That's correct.
          23  Q.  Prior to this case, have you ever heard or had you ever
          24  heard of James Dalton Bell?
          25  A.  No.
           1  Q.  Did you at one point live at 14135 South Clackamas River
           2  Drive in Oregon City?
           3  A.  I did.
           4  Q.  Do you know the current occupant of that residence, Chris
           5  Groener?
           6  A.  I do.
           7  Q.  Do you remember Mr. Groener calling you in October,
           8  specifically October 23rd of 2000, to tell you that somebody had
           9  been to the residence looking for you?
          10  A.  Yes, I do remember.
          11  Q.  What do you remember about that call?
          12  A.  Chris called me and he explained that there had been an
          13  individual there.  He described this individual.  He told me
          14  that the individual was asking questions about me and wanted to
          15  know if I lived there or where I lived.
          16  Q.  And did he tell you the individual's name?
          17  A.  He did.
          18  Q.  And what name did he tell you?
          19  A.  He told me Jim Bell.
          20  Q.  Did it mean anything to you?
          21  A.  At first it didn't, but after I thought about it for a few
          22  minutes, I remembered recently receiving a -- some information
          23  from Special Agent Jeff Gordon and the Vancouver Police
          24  Department.
          25  Q.  And what was the information that you had received from PPD
           1  or Special Agent Gordon about Mr. Bell prior to Chris Groener
           2  calling you to say that this guy had been out at your former
           3  house?
           4  A.  About mid September, Special Agent Gordon had contacted me
           5  at my office and had informed me my name had been posted over
           6  the Internet on some Cypherpunks web page, and it had to do with
           7  an individual that I had a case on previously that was
           8  completely unrelated to this individual, but he just wanted to
           9  give it to me as information that this individual had my name.
          10  Q.  All right.  Now, is the individual you are talking about,
          11  you said you had a case on, is that a Ryan Lund?
          12  A.  That's correct.
          13  Q.  Were you the principal case agent for ATF in a case that was
          14  charged out of this district against a Ryan Lund?
          15  A.  I was.
          16  Q.  Was that -- what was Ryan's Lund's offense?
          17  A.  He was charged in U.S. District Court in Western District of
          18  Washington with felon in possession of a firearm.
          19  Q.  And did you present the case for prosecution to the U.S.
          20  Attorney in this district?
          21  A.  I did.
          22  Q.  And was that case presented to a prosecutor named Joanne
          23  Maida?
          24  A.  It was.
          25  Q.  And did Mr. Lund plead guilty to anything, as far as you
           1  know?
           2  A.  He did.  He pled guilty to felon in possession of a firearm.
           3  Q.  And was he sentenced?
           4  A.  He was.
           5  Q.  As far as you know, did Mr. Lund receive any kind of a break
           6  or a deal in his sentence as a quid pro quo for assaulting Mr.
           7  Bell at the FDC, at the Federal Detention Center at SeaTac?
           8  A.  No.
           9  Q.  Did anyone ever discuss giving Mr. Lund any kind of a deal,
          10  as far as you're aware, other than a standard plea bargain?
          11  A.  No.
          12  Q.  All right.  How long -- did you say you've been a federal
          13  agent for ATF for eleven years?
          14  A.  Yes.
          15  Q.  All right.  And typically, in your experience of the matters
          16  that you present for prosecution after you investigate, do most
          17  of those matters plead out, as we say, as opposed to go to
          18  trial?
          19  A.  They do.
          20  Q.  And is it in fact quite typical for cases that are resolved
          21  by plea to involve some kind of a plea bargain?
          22  A.  That's correct.
          23  Q.  What is a plea bargain, if you will just very briefly
          24  describe what it is?  What does the government get and what does
          25  the defendant get?
           1  A.  The defendant usually gets a reduced sentence of some kind.
           2  It's his cooperation, I guess, for pleading guilty, a couple
           3  point deduction.  The government, I guess, avoids a trial and a
           4  lengthy, I guess, process that costs a lot of money.
           5  Q.  All right.  Is it fair to say that quite typically if a
           6  defendant saves the government the time and expense and trouble
           7  of having to go to trial and bring witnesses in, and so forth,
           8  that they are sometimes quite prepared to offer defendants some
           9  kind of a break in the disposition of their cases at sentencing?
          10  A.  Yes.
          11  Q.  In the form of a recommendation to a judge that a defendant
          12  not receive as harsh a penalty as he might otherwise receive?
          13  A.  That's correct.
          14  Q.  In your view, do you recall what Mr. Lund was sentenced to?
          15  A.  I believe Mr. Lund was sentenced to 27 months, but I'm not
          16  sure.  That was a few years ago.
          17  Q.  And was that part of a plea bargain, as far as you know?
          18  A.  That's correct.
          19  Q.  Can you look at Exhibit 116, please.  It's a -- we will put
          20  it up on the screen for you.
          21      Do you see that email?
          22  A.  I do.
          23  Q.  Do you see the reference in there, there's a quotation mark,
          24  "Check with Portland BATF agent Mike McNall, who was present on
          25  the search, despite the fact that it was not a Federal search
           1  warrant."
           2           AGENT GORDON:  116 or 160?
           3           MR. LONDON:  I'm sorry, I may be in 115.
           4  Q.  (Mr. London)  I will ask you to look at 115.
           5           AGENT GORDON:  It is 116?
           6           MR. LONDON:  No, go to 115.
           7           AGENT GORDON:  I'm on there now.  Sorry.
           8  Q.  (By Mr. London)  I'm just going to ask you to bear with me
           9  for a moment.
          10           AGENT GORDON:  You do want 116.
          11  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Do you see 116, the third page of 116?  Do
          12  you see the text that says, "Check with Portland BATF agent Mike
          13  McNall, who was present on the search, despite the fact that it
          14  was not a Federal search warrant.  I suspect it was Agent McNall
          15  who did the deal with Lund"?
          16  A.  I do see that.
          17  Q.  All right.  Now, that's been admitted.  That's an email that
          18  was posted to the Internet on September 15 of 2000.  Is that the
          19  email, as best as you can remember, that Agent Gordon called you
          20  about to say that your name had appeared in one of Mr. Bell's
          21  postings to the Internet on the Cypherpunks website?
          22  A.  I believe this was, or it was one similar to this one.
          23           THE COURT:  Counsel, the clerk says she doesn't have
          24  116.
          25           THE CLERK:  As admitted.
           1           THE COURT:  As admitted.
           2           MR. LONDON:  Well, at this point then I offer 116.
           3           MR. LEEN:  Your Honor, I don't think it's been
           4  authenticated yet.
           5      Let me, if I might just have a second.
           6           MR. LONDON:  Your Honor, 116 is the email that's
           7  downloaded from the Cypherpunks website.  117 is the exact same
           8  thing which --
           9           THE COURT:  All I'm saying --
          10           MR. LEEN:  The defendant has no objection to the
          11  admission of Exhibit 116, Your Honor.
          12           THE COURT:  All right.  Are you offering 116?
          13           MR. LONDON:  I am, Your Honor.
          14           THE COURT:  Now it's admitted.
          15      (Exhibit No. 116 was admitted.)
          16           MR. LONDON:  May I ask the clerk if 117 has been
          17  admitted?
          18           THE CLERK:  Yes, it has.
          19           MR. LONDON:  Thank you.
          20  Q.  (By Mr. London)  116 is a version of the email that was
          21  downloaded from the Internet, but in fact it was found on the
          22  defendant's computer in the form of an outgoing message, Exhibit
          23  117.  Do you have any idea of what this refers to, in terms of,
          24  "I suspect it was agent McNall who did the deal with Lund"?
          25  A.  No, I don't.
           1  Q.  Did you do a deal with Lund?
           2  A.  No, I did not.
           3  Q.  After Lund was arrested and taken into custody and went into
           4  the Federal Detention Center at SeaTac, did you ever have any
           5  personal contact with him ever again?
           6  A.  You know, I didn't have any personal contact with Ryan Lund
           7  from probably the time I interviewed him during the search
           8  warrant that day.  I never arrested him again.  The Oregon state
           9  police arrested him and he was transported.  So I never saw Mr.
          10  Lund from the day I originally interviewed him.
          11  Q.  And is it correct that the next you heard of Mr. Lund was
          12  when Ms. Maida, the prosecutor, called you and said that he had
          13  pled guilty and been sentenced?
          14  A.  Yes.
          15  Q.  And is that when you closed out your case file?
          16  A.  Well, besides a few technical things like get rid of some
          17  property, yeah, we closed our file then.
          18  Q.  All right.  Around one o'clock in the morning, November
          19  10th, were you contacted because of a visit that Mr. Bell made
          20  to your former residence on South Clackamas Drive?
          21  A.  Yes.
          22  Q.  How did you happen to be contacted about this?
          23  A.  I was contacted, I believe, by a treasury agent and they
          24  told me that Bell was on Groener's property and that he was
          25  currently there.
           1  Q.  All right.  And does ATF have a 24-hour dispatch service?
           2  A.  Yes, we do.
           3  Q.  And, in fact, were they the ones who notified you that the
           4  treasury agents were trying to locate you to warn you about
           5  this?
           6  A.  It might have been, and then I telephoned this other
           7  treasury agent.  That could have been how it went.
           8  Q.  When you heard this, what did you do?
           9  A.  I believe I telephoned my supervisor and then informed him
          10  that I was going to go out to that residence.
          11  Q.  Did you go out there?
          12  A.  I did.
          13  Q.  What was the purpose of going out there?
          14  A.  I wanted to check on my friend Chris and my former
          15  landlords.
          16  Q.  And what did you find when you got there?
          17  A.  I found some Clackamas County deputies there.  They had
          18  already been notified and they were presently there.
          19  Q.  And did you learn that Mr. Bell and his car had actually
          20  been stopped a few miles down the road from Groener's house?
          21  A.  I did.
          22  Q.  Did you go to see the stop where he was being detained?
          23  A.  Yes, I did.
          24  Q.  Did you actually have any contact with him?
          25  A.  No, I didn't.
           1  Q.  Prior to coming here to court today, have you ever come face
           2  to face with James Dalton Bell before?
           3  A.  No, I have not.
           4  Q.  What did you do when you got out to the scene of the stop of
           5  his vehicle, or the detention of his vehicle out there a few
           6  miles from where you used to live?
           7  A.  I talked with, I believe, the sergeant on that scene.  Kind
           8  of gave him a background of what was happening in this case, and
           9  then was transported back to Groener's residence.
          10  Q.  All right.  Now, have you had an opportunity to be shown,
          11  either by Agent Gordon or anybody else, all of the database runs
          12  and searches that have shown up either in printout form or taken
          13  from Mr. Bell's residence or downloaded from his computer and in
          14  what appears to be a determined effort by Mr. Bell to locate
          15  your home address?
          16  A.  I don't know if I've seen them all, but I have seen several
          17  that came out of Mr. Bell's house.
          18  Q.  And how does this make you feel, knowing that you are the
          19  object of this effort to find your home address by somebody who
          20  you have not ever had any contact with before?
          21  A.  Well, initially, you know, I -- this is part of being in law
          22  enforcement, but as I was told of Mr. Bell's background, you
          23  know, this Assassination Politic thing that had come over the
          24  web, or he was the alleged author of, you know, this Sarin gas
          25  incident, you know, his background in chemistry, his MIT, you
           1  know, being a graduate of MIT, I became extremely concerned
           2  and -- for myself and my family.
           3  Q.  Did you at any point attempt to get a restraining order in
           4  Clackamas County or any county in Oregon against Mr. Bell?
           5  A.  I did.
           6  Q.  And what did you do to try to get a restraining order
           7  against him after you learned about his efforts to find you?
           8  A.  Myself, Chris Groener, and the Andrews all met with the
           9  police officer and filled out restraining order paperwork.  They
          10  took that paperwork and said they would serve this, and then
          11  they found out that Mr. Bell was a resident of a different state
          12  and was currently -- I believe he was incarcerated at that time
          13  in Washington, and there were some problems with being able to
          14  serve him the paperwork.
          15  Q.  Did the problems have to do with the fact that police
          16  officers in the state of Oregon did not have jurisdiction to
          17  serve somebody in the state of Washington?
          18  A.  I believe that was one of the problems.  There was another
          19  problem with the fact that I wasn't going to put my home address
          20  on the restraining order.
          21  Q.  The only way you could get the restraining order was to put
          22  on your correct current home address?
          23  A.  I don't know if that's the only way, but that became an
          24  issue and became a problem.
          25           MR. LONDON:   I would like to ask that the agent -- the
           1  witness be shown page 27 of Exhibit 137, the diary.
           2  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Do you see these handwritten entries in the
           3  diary?  This is Exhibit 137.  It's the 27th page of this
           4  notebook.  Can you make any of that out?
           5  A.  Yes, I can.
           6  Q.  Do you recognize any of the information in there?
           7  A.  I sure do.
           8  Q.  What can you tell the jury that you recognize in there?
           9  A.  Well, I recognize the 14135 South Clackamas River Drive,
          10  Oregon City.  That is my former address.  It says, "Andrews on
          11  mailbox."  I don't know if that's true, but I know that the
          12  Andrews do live in a residence on that property.  John Andrews,
          13  Connie Andrews, and their phone number.  That is their phone
          14  number.  It has a -- like a plate number, OR -- I don't know
          15  what the RLT is, but I do know that the UNF343, I believe that
          16  is one of the Andrews vehicles.
          17  Q.  All right.  Can you look at Exhibit 129, please.
          18      Do you see this document?
          19  A.  I do see it.
          20  Q.  Do you see what the title of this document is, handwritten
          21  document, handwritten notation at the top?
          22  A.  It says "MCNALLS.DOC."
          23  Q.  Now, do you recognize any of the information that's listed
          24  next to your name in any of the places here?
          25  A.  I do.
           1  Q.  What information do you see in this?
           2  A.  Again, I see my name and my former address at 14135 South
           3  Clackamas River Drive.  It looks like -- it looks like my height
           4  and weight, driver's license number, and I believe my date of
           5  birth.
           6  Q.  All right.  There's a reference to a Michelle Mary McNall.
           7  Does that name mean anything to you?
           8  A.  No, it doesn't.
           9  Q.  Can you look at Exhibit 164, please.
          10  A.  Well, there's some other stuff on here, also, that I
          11  recognize.
          12  Q.  Well, why don't you tell us what that is before you go to
          13  164.
          14  A.  Down below there's my name again with a -- with my work's
          15  address on there, and again it has my date of birth and my
          16  height and weight.
          17  Q.  Please go to Exhibit 164.  We're going to put it up for
          18  you.
          19           AGENT GORDON:  Is this publish?
          20           MR. LONDON:  This is published.
          21  Q.  (By Mr. London)  It's an email from Mr. Bell to John
          22  Branton -- I'm sorry, to jessicas@alum.mit.edu.  It has a cc to
          23  Declan McCullagh, John Branton, and a number of other
          24  individuals.  Subject:  Still interested in uncovering the
          25  truth.  Do you see that?  Is that on the screen in front of you?
           1  A.  Yes.
           2  Q.  All right.  Do you see the first paragraph there?
           3  A.  I do.
           4  Q.  Okay.  Can you -- can you read that?
           5  A.  Sure.  "There is something I'd like you to do for me.  I
           6  would like you to call the Portland, Oregon BATF office
           7  (503-326-5115:  That's the number for 'firearms enforcement'
           8  which may be the proper number for this case) and talk to 'Mike
           9  McNall.'"
          10  Q.  All right.  Now, is that in fact the phone number that you
          11  respond at professionally?
          12  A.  That's correct.
          13  Q.  If I wanted to reach you at the office to discuss anything
          14  with you, could I do it by calling that phone number?
          15  A.  You could.
          16  Q.  Have you been part of any kind of past surveillance
          17  conspiracy with other government agents or agencies to
          18  constantly surveil James Bell?
          19  A.  No, I have not.
          20  Q.  Do you know of any such conspiracy?
          21  A.  No, I do not.
          22  Q.  Did you ever make a connection after you were told that Mr.
          23  Bell was looking for you, when you were told a little about him,
          24  between him and an individual you had heard about who lived in
          25  the Vancouver area previously and a search warrant in 1997 at
           1  which another ATF agent, someone who is a colleague of yours,
           2  had actually been present?
           3  A.  I -- an individual in my office had been present at that
           4  warrant and I remember hearing things about it, but I didn't --
           5  I didn't know who the individual was.  I had nothing to do with
           6  that case, but I do, I do remember bits and pieces of that.
           7  Q.  But is it fair to say that when you heard that this Mr. Bell
           8  was looking for you, you were notified this past fall about
           9  that, and you were told about it, that it rang familiar to you
          10  to the -- it brought back something to you about a search
          11  warrant at a home that had been done in Vancouver a few years
          12  back?
          13  A.  Yes.
          14  Q.  And what did you know from your colleague, or what do you
          15  remember knowing about what had been found at that place?
          16  A.  I remember that it was a -- firearms taken out of that
          17  residence.  I remember there was a -- chemicals, I believe, that
          18  was -- if mixed right, would make some kind of nerve gas.
          19           MR. LEEN:  I object, Your Honor.  This is based on
          20  hearsay.
          21           THE COURT:  He may answer.
          22  A.  And I believe that there -- he -- the agent in my office
          23  told me that there was several names of agents, their
          24  addresses.  There's -- there's a lot of that, that kind of
          25  material at his house.  I believe there was some -- some books
           1  on how to manufacture bombs.
           2           MR. LEEN:  Objection.
           3           THE COURT:  Overruled.
           4  A.  Stuff of that nature.
           5  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Now, since you have learned about Mr.
           6  Bell's determination to find your home address, what steps have
           7  you taken, if any, to better protect either yourself or your
           8  family?
           9  A.  Well, I, I contacted the local police department in the area
          10  I live.  I talked with them, explained to them the situation.  I
          11  informed them that if they receive a phone call from my
          12  residence, if they could find that and respond to it
          13  immediately.
          14      My wife had contacted the -- my children's school over this
          15  and gave strict rules to the principal of what my children are
          16  supposed to do and not to do and who they are supposed to go
          17  home with and not go home with.
          18      You know, I used to, to leave my side garage door open
          19  because -- for my dog to come and go.  That's now locked every
          20  night.  Things of that nature I did.  You know, I mean, my wife
          21  is completely aware of unfamiliar cars in our neighborhood.  I
          22  mean, she takes notes of it now.  There's a lot of things that
          23  was very disruptive over this, this ordeal.
          24  Q.  As a law enforcement officer, had you encountered this kind
          25  of thing before?
           1  A.  Personally, no.
           2  Q.  Have you given any consideration to whether either your
           3  agency or any other agency should protect your house or do any
           4  kind of added security for your neighborhood or your residence?
           5  A.  There's been -- there's been talk about that.  Now that
           6  you've brought that up, until Mr. Bell was taken into custody,
           7  ATF did respond to my house and there was surveillance at my
           8  residence, as well as, as Mr. Groener's.
           9  Q.  Have you had to alter plans, travel plans, for example, in
          10  your life because of this?
          11  A.  During this incident I was supposed to take a business trip
          12  that I cancelled.  I did not want to leave my family at the
          13  residence by themselves, so to speak, overnight, or any night.
          14  So I pretty much worked in Portland only.
          15  Q.  Was this before Mr. Bell was actually taken into custody?
          16  A.  I believe so.
          17           MR. LONDON:  Nothing further.
          18           THE COURT:  Cross-examination.
          19                          CROSS-EXAMINATION
          20  BY MR. LEEN:
          21  Q.  Good afternoon, Agent McNall.
          22      Agent McNall, you've never personally had any dealings with
          23  Mr. Bell.
          24  A.  Not to my recollection, no.
          25  Q.  So this is probably the first time you personally have been
           1  in the same room with him or the same area with him.
           2  A.  This is --
           3  Q.  Other than that November 10th incident when you responded.
           4  A.  Yes.
           5  Q.  And has he ever -- has he ever contacted you directly?
           6  A.  Like came to my office and contacted me?
           7  Q.  Or contacted you on the telephone or in any way, directly
           8  contacted you?
           9  A.  Not to my knowledge, no.
          10  Q.  Or directly contacted any member of your family?
          11  A.  Not to my knowledge, no.
          12  Q.  Have you ever known him to be on your property?
          13  A.  The property I live now?
          14  Q.  Yes.
          15  A.  Not to my knowledge, no.
          16  Q.  Now, you indicated that in 1997 you were the case agent who
          17  was in charge of the -- the case agent who handled the
          18  prosecution of Ryan Lund.
          19  A.  That's correct.
          20  Q.  If I understand correctly, this was originally a local
          21  police case.  Mr. Lund's case was initially a local police case
          22  which was -- jurisdiction was taken over by ATF and the federal
          23  government.
          24  A.  Well, I was working in Vancouver with a -- with an
          25  individual that was part of the Clark County Sheriff's Office,
           1  and it was easier to get a state search warrant in this case,
           2  and that's why we did that, yes.  But it was a joint
           3  investigation.
           4  Q.  You were assigned to the District of Oregon at the time?
           5  A.  Well, ATF office in Oregon covers four counties in
           6  Washington.
           7  Q.  And is Vancouver one of them?
           8  A.  Clark County is one of them, yes.
           9  Q.  And was Mr. Lund initially -- always intended to be
          10  prosecuted federally?  Or was that a decision that would have
          11  been made after the search warrant?
          12  A.  Well, if we were -- if we were going to find a gun on him,
          13  we were going to present that federally, yes.
          14  Q.  How long after the search warrant was served was he actually
          15  filed on federally?
          16  A.  I don't recall.
          17  Q.  Was there a lapse of time?
          18  A.  There could have been, yes.  A month or two.  I don't
          19  believe Mr. Lund was a resident at the time of the search
          20  warrant.
          21  Q.  And then released and --
          22  A.  No, I don't believe he was arrested at all.
          23  Q.  Now, Mr. Lund, it's true, eventually was placed at the
          24  Federal Detention Center?
          25  A.  You know, I'm not sure where he was placed.  He was arrested
           1  down somewhere in southern Oregon, and I don't know where his
           2  transportation took him.  I do know --
           3  Q.  Did you ever have to come up to the Western District of
           4  Washington to assist in the prosecution?
           5  A.  No, I don't believe I did.  Maybe for a grand jury hearing,
           6  and that would have been it.
           7  Q.  So all your communication with Ms. Maida would have been
           8  over the telephone or exchange of faxes or letters?
           9  A.  I believe so, yes.
          10  Q.  You testified that Mr. Lund didn't receive any particular
          11  consideration for pleading guilty other than what other
          12  defendants would get in pleading guilty.
          13           MR. LONDON:  Your Honor, I object because that really
          14  does mischaracterize what his testimony was.  His testimony was
          15  simply that he was aware that Mr. Lund pled guilty and it was
          16  part of a plea bargain.
          17           MR. LEEN:  I think that --
          18           THE COURT:  What's the question?
          19           MR. LEEN:  The question was:  Did Mr. Lund receive no
          20  particular consideration other than what normal defendants would
          21  receive for pleading guilty?
          22           THE COURT:  Do you understand the question?
          23           THE WITNESS:  Yes.
          24           THE COURT:  All right.
          25           MR. LEEN:  Thank you.
           1  A.  I was not involved in any of these negotiations.  I have no
           2  idea, but as far as I can tell, it was just a standard plea
           3  bargain.
           4  Q.  (By Mr. Leen)  To your knowledge, Mr. Lund was not working
           5  as an informant for ATF?
           6  A.  I know he wasn't working as an informant for myself or ATF,
           7  yes.
           8  Q.  And to your knowledge, he wasn't working as an informant for
           9  the federal government at all?
          10  A.  To my knowledge, that's correct.
          11  Q.  When were you -- you say that on November -- on November
          12  10th, you indicated that you were contacted and asked and
          13  responded to Mr. Groener's residence and spoke to officers who
          14  had stopped Mr. Bell's vehicle.
          15  A.  That's correct.
          16  Q.  Prior to that, when were you notified about Mr. Bell's
          17  interest in you?
          18  A.  Well, it was twice.  Once was probably mid September, and
          19  that was through Special Agent Jeff Gordon, and --
          20  Q.  The gentleman over at the table?
          21  A.  That's correct.  And the second time was probably maybe two
          22  weeks later, I received a telephone call from the Vancouver
          23  Police Department Intelligence Unit, and they basically told me
          24  the same, the same thing that Special Agent Jeff Gordon had.
          25  Q.  And that was that Mr. Bell was trying to locate you or
           1  locate your personal residence?
           2  A.  Basically that my name had come over a web page and he was
           3  alleging that I was part of some kind of conspiracy or had done
           4  a deal with Ryan Lund and they wanted me to be notified about
           5  this.
           6  Q.  All right.
           7  A.  And they filled in some background on Mr. Bell for me.
           8           MR. LEEN:  One second, please.
           9  Q.  (By Mr. Leen)  Special Agent McNall, you indicated that
          10  after the arrest of Mr. Lund, essentially you had -- although
          11  you were the supervising case agent, you really had little
          12  actual contact with the case.  Is that a correct summary of what
          13  you said?
          14  A.  That's correct.
          15  Q.  So did you have any ongoing contact with Mr. Lund between
          16  the time of his arrest and the time of his guilty plea?
          17  A.  The last time I spoke with Mr. Lund was the time that we did
          18  the search warrant at his residence, and that's --
          19  Q.  And that was before his arrest?
          20  A.  That was before his arrest.  I didn't even have any contact
          21  with him at his arrest or after his arrest.
          22           MR. LEEN:  Thank you.  No further questions.
          23           THE COURT:  Redirect.
          24                       REDIRECT EXAMINATION
          25  BY MR. LONDON:
           1  Q.  Do you have any idea how Mr. Bell even found out that you
           2  were the case agent for this Ryan Lund who beat him up at
           3  SeaTac?
           4  A.  I had heard that he had researched Mr. Lund's case file.  I
           5  don't know if he had or not, but that's what I found out, and
           6  then he found out through that that I was actually the case
           7  agent from ATF.
           8           MR. LONDON:  Nothing further.
           9           THE COURT:  Recross.
          10           MR. LEEN:  No questions.
          11           THE COURT:  The witness may be excused.
          12      (Witness excused.)
          13           THE COURT:  Next witness.
          14           MR. LONDON:  Jeffrey Gordon.
          16           THE CLERK:  Please be seated.
          17      Please state your full name and spell your last name.
          18           THE WITNESS:  Jeffrey Gordon, G-o-r-d-o-n.
          19                        DIRECT EXAMINATION
          20  BY MR. LONDON:
          21  Q.  Agent Gordon, how are you presently employed?
          22  A.  I'm a special agent with the Treasury Inspector General for
          23  Tax Administration.
          24  Q.  And were you formerly with the Internal Revenue Service's
          25  internal security branch?
           1  A.  Yeah.  That's basically the same organization, only we've
           2  been renamed and reorganized since a couple years ago.
           3  Q.  All right.  I want to take you back in time a little bit so
           4  that we can understand, I suppose, the context of -- that's why
           5  we're all here today.  But let's go back to 1996.  I want to ask
           6  you how you first became aware of James Bell.
           7  A.  I was sitting in my office working one day in, I believe it
           8  was, October 1996.  I got a call from IRS Revenue Officer Joan
           9  Luethe.  She told me she had heard that she has -- her name had
          10  been posted in some -- on the Internet or somehow related to the
          11  Internet and her home address and personal information.  She was
          12  concerned about it and basically was inquiring as to what we
          13  were going to do about it, and she told me that the name of the
          14  person who apparently had posted this information or placed this
          15  information was Jim Bell.
          16  Q.  What did you do in reaction to getting that call from Joan
          17  Luethe?
          18  A.  Well, first a traced -- tried to trace back the original
          19  information.  I asked her, since this was the first I heard
          20  about it, where she had gotten the information.  She told me she
          21  got it from IRS CID, criminal investigation division, Special
          22  Agent Lynn Rose.  So I called Lynn and contacted her, got some
          23  additional information, which included the email address
          24  jimbell@pacifier.com, that that was the person who had posted
          25  both Lynn Rose's and Joan Luethe's name, and really -- and Lynn
           1  identified where she got the information from.  So I placed some
           2  calls and left some messages for the officer who had initially
           3  identified that information.
           4      And I also, at that point, tried to see if I could identify
           5  who jimbell@pacifier.com was.
           6  Q.  All right.  Now, did it stand to reason that if somebody was
           7  posting the name of an IRS officer, that person might be someone
           8  who had had contact with the IRS either in a tax collection
           9  matter or some kind of professional context?
          10  A.  Yeah, that's certainly possible.
          11  Q.  Did you check to see if there was a Jim Bell or a James Bell
          12  who had had any kind of issues with the IRS?
          13  A.  Well, that's a -- it's a pretty common name, so I needed, if
          14  we ran it in our system, just Jim Bell or James Bell, we would
          15  get thousands of responses.  So I went onto the Internet and
          16  used an Internet search engine to see if I could get some more
          17  information on the actual specific email address that I had,
          18  jimbell@pacifier.com.  When I ran a search, it came up almost
          19  immediately with hundreds of articles, many of which were titled
          20  either Assassination Politics or the Virtual Lynch Mop or
          21  something like that.  And so at that point I was very concerned
          22  because now not only was there information about IRS employees
          23  and their home addresses, but there was also at least the word
          24  "assassination," which as a person who is charged with security
          25  for IRS officers, that's one of my primary missions.  When you
           1  start talking about IRS, assassinating IRS or assassination and
           2  you are identifying names and home addresses, that's an
           3  immediate concern for us.
           4      But among the messages then as I started to go through and
           5  actually read some of the messages and get some information, I
           6  noticed that one of the messages that was posted on the Internet
           7  was not about assassination, but was actually a for sale ad, and
           8  this for sale ad had a phone number associated with it.  It was
           9  selling some computer equipment.  Jim Bell was selling,
          10  advertising some computer equipment for sale, and it had a phone
          11  number associated with the jimbell@pacifier.com.  So by
          12  cross-referencing the phone number, that brought me to James
          13  Dalton Bell at 7214 Corregidor.
          14  Q.  Now, when you had that information, what did you do with
          15  it?  I mean, we've heard a lot of testimony about the Multnomah
          16  County Common Law Court and Operation Locate IRS.  Were you able
          17  to make a connection between the information you now had and all
          18  of that?
          19  A.  Yeah.  Then, this is still -- a lot of information is coming
          20  in, and I'm not sure of the exact order, but at the same time I
          21  got a copy of the originating message that had Joan Luethe and
          22  Lynn Rose's name on it.  The actual message itself was to the
          23  two groups, Northwest Libertarians and Common Law something, was
          24  one of the names of it, and it was titled Operation Locate IRS.
          25  Q.  This is an email message?
           1  A.  That's right.  And so the -- and the title being Operation
           2  Locate IRS concerned me because this seemed to signify, there's
           3  an operation going on.  It's more than just a message of these
           4  two, but that somehow there's something out there that is an
           5  operation to locate the IRS agents.  It's being run by the same
           6  guy who is proposing Assassination Politics and assassinations.
           7  And in talking to the intelligence officers who found this
           8  message originally, they told me that they believed that the
           9  common law list service that this was posted to was affiliated
          10  with a local common law court.
          11      So it was -- it looked like we had an organization, the
          12  common law court, which I had, as an intelligence officer or
          13  security officer, I had some background on what they are and
          14  what they do, so they were of a concern.  They were apparently
          15  running some sort of operation to identify IRS, and the
          16  individual involved was -- in assassin- -- was involved with
          17  Assassination Politics and which, as I read it, and read
          18  discussions of it, seemed to be directly targeted towards taking
          19  out tax collectors.  I think there's, in the discussions of it
          20  and in itself it talks about targeting tax collectors as a means
          21  of bringing down the government.  That you can't necessarily go
          22  after FBI or ATF because they are well-armed and you can't
          23  target their agents, but if you take out the tax collectors, the
          24  whole government will collapse without the tax system.
          25      So given all this information coming in, I, and obviously my
           1  management and the agency, was very concerned.
           2  Q.  Now, did the information begin to accumulate to the point
           3  where you felt justified in seeking a search warrant for Mr.
           4  Bell's residence?
           5  A.  Yes.  Actually, we considered almost immediately that was
           6  one of the options we had that we were discussing, getting a
           7  search warrant almost initially off the bat.  We decided,
           8  though, that we would like to get additional information first.
           9  We went through about six months of investigation before we
          10  finally did it, April 1st, '97.
          11  Q.  Before doing it, were you able to determine whether Mr. Bell
          12  had any kind of a personal beef with the IRS?  I mean, had he
          13  had a tax problem or a tax issue that had caused him to, to get
          14  involved this way, become fixated this way on the IRS?
          15  A.  Yes.  We -- I did some, you know, amongst all the research I
          16  was doing, I pulled up tax records.  I found some correspondence
          17  that he had sent to the IRS, I believe it was in October '96,
          18  which he pretty much threatened to take the IRS to the common
          19  law court and demanded the names of IRS agents who were
          20  responsible for screwing up his account.
          21      I think he demanded that all the moneys that he had paid be
          22  refunded to him.  I noted that there were nonfiled -- there were
          23  returns that were required to be filed that hadn't been.  He
          24  owed a substantial amount of money that had not been collected.
          25  His account had been in collection status.  They tried to find
           1  assets, and, in fact, one of the first things, or initially in
           2  October-November we discovered as we were tracking back the
           3  files that his account was ready to be reassigned back out to a
           4  collection officer, a revenue officer, for them to be back in
           5  contact with him to see if they could locate assets or collect
           6  the money that he owed.  So we had to put a -- put a stop to
           7  that, or put a hold on that and give them, make sure that they
           8  didn't take any action at this point while we assessed the
           9  threat and the situation.
          10  Q.  So you're saying the civil enforcement action on the civil
          11  side was suspended while you, on the internal security side,
          12  went forward to do a threat assessment of him to find out what
          13  kind of a threat he might pose?
          14  A.  Right.  While we figured out what we were going to do.
          15  Q.  All right.  Now, you mentioned that there was a search
          16  warrant obtained for a search that was done on April 1st, 1997,
          17  at Mr. Bell's home on Corregidor in Vancouver.  Were you present
          18  at the search?
          19  A.  Yes, I was.
          20  Q.  And did you in fact lead the search team that day?
          21  A.  I was the case agent, so, yeah, I -- as the case agent, you
          22  organize the plan and you direct some of the activity, although
          23  I believe there was a super -- you know, my supervisor was
          24  present, so, you know.  It depends how you define lead, I
          25  guess.
           1  Q.  All right.  And were you part of the seizure and chain of
           2  custody, and so forth, for Mr. Bell's computer, the one known as
           3  K-1, which is Exhibit 44?
           4  A.  That was -- I was, as the -- we have a very small office in
           5  Portland, and so I am, among other things, the evidence
           6  custodian in the Portland office.  So any evidence that has come
           7  through the Portland office or that is stored in the office, I
           8  am involved in chain of custody on since I'm -- I'm, for some
           9  periods of time, the only one with the combination to the safe
          10  or the key to the room.
          11  Q.  And, in fact, after that search was done and material from
          12  the search was reviewed, was a warrant for Mr. Bell's arrest
          13  obtained, a federal warrant?
          14  A.  Yes, it was.
          15  Q.  And were you a part of the team that arrested Mr. Bell on
          16  May 15th, 1997?
          17  A.  I'm not sure of the date, but, yes.
          18  Q.  And were you also the leader of the team of agents who
          19  executed a federal search warrant at the home of Robert East,
          20  who turned out to be a friend of Mr. Bell's?
          21  A.  Yes.
          22  Q.  What was the purpose of searching Mr. East's home?
          23  A.  During the investigation we obtained information that Mr.
          24  East was an associate of Mr. Bell, that they had had
          25  conversation -- email conversations, at least, back and forth
           1  which discussed activities, including wrecking or destroying
           2  government computers using nickel coated carbon fibers.  There
           3  were discussions of chemicals.  But among other things, many of
           4  the messages between Mr. Bell and Mr. East were encrypted and we
           5  could not read them.  There's only one or two messages that we
           6  found that were decrypted for us on the computer, so most of
           7  them we couldn't read, but the ones that we could read were
           8  basically discussed -- discussing terrorist-type activity.
           9  So --
          10           MR. LEEN:  Objection, Your Honor, to the
          11  characterization "terrorist."  Move to strike.
          12           THE COURT:  He may answer.  You can cross-examination
          13  what he means by it.
          14      Go ahead.
          15  A.  So we decided as another step to try, since we couldn't
          16  decrypt these messages, that -- but when you're emailing, we
          17  know that there's basically two copies of an email message that
          18  two people exchange; one copy usually on the person who sends
          19  it, but that there might also be a copy on the person who
          20  receives it.  So among other things that we were -- got probable
          21  cause for was to go to see if we could seize Mr. East's computer
          22  and see if he had the messages on his machine and maybe he had
          23  decrypted more of them that we would be able to read.
          24      We also had evidence at that point that Mr. Bell may be
          25  using Mr. East's house as a staging area or something.  We knew
           1  he was making phone calls from Mr. East's house and we knew he
           2  was using Mr. East's house as a mail drop.  That he had -- even
           3  his employer, we had subpoenaed his employment records, and
           4  instead of listing his own address, he was using Mr. East's
           5  house as to where he was getting his paychecks and things.  So
           6  we ended up with enough probable cause to get a search warrant
           7  on Mr. East's house.
           8  Q.  (Mr. London)  All right.  Now, ultimately, after Mr. Bell
           9  was arrested in 1997, he was charged and he did plead guilty to
          10  certain offenses.  Were you present in court when Mr. Bell pled
          11  guilty to obstructing the Internal Revenue laws?
          12  A.  Yes, I was.
          13  Q.  And did you hear the exchange, what we call a colloquy,
          14  between Judge Burgess and Mr. Bell to make sure that Mr. Bell
          15  was admitting facts that were sufficient to support that guilty
          16  plea?
          17  A.  Yes, I did.
          18  Q.  All right.  And what did Mr. Bell acknowledge in court with
          19  respect to the purpose of collecting and publicizing home
          20  address information on IRS employees?
          21  A.  I don't remember the exact wording, but basically that he
          22  did so with the intent to obstruct the Internal -- the Internal
          23  Revenue Service, I believe.
          24  Q.  Was there any reference in that colloquy of Mr. Bell's
          25  purpose being to investigate anything or do research on
           1  anything?
           2  A.  No.
           3  Q.  When did you first hear Mr. Bell's allegation that that
           4  guilty plea that he entered, that you were in court for, was
           5  coerced by the government using a fellow inmate, Ryan Lund, to
           6  beat him up at SeaTac?
           7  A.  That's a good question, and probably sometime in early 1998
           8  there was probably some chatter on the Internet.  Occasionally
           9  someone would post something on the Internet that at least
          10  claimed it was a letter from Jim Bell or that they had spoken to
          11  Jim Bell and this is what he was saying, and I think at some
          12  point along the line there I read something where he was
          13  alleging this information.
          14  Q.  You were present at the hearing where he pled guilty,
          15  correct?
          16  A.  Yes.
          17  Q.  Did he ever mention Ryan Lund at that hearing?
          18  A.  No.
          19  Q.  Did he ever say that he was being coerced into that guilty
          20  plea?
          21  A.  He said the exact opposite.  That's one of the specific
          22  questions that the judge asks, judge asks him, "Are you being
          23  coerced or threatened?" or something like that, and he did -- he
          24  didn't make no such claim.  He said -- I don't remember the
          25  exact words, but it was clear that he was not.
           1  Q.  Now, Mr. Bell was released from prison after serving his
           2  time, and in 1998, I believe, and was placed on what's known as
           3  supervised release, is that correct?
           4  A.  Yes.
           5  Q.  It's a kind of probation, correct?
           6  A.  Yes.
           7  Q.  And are you familiar with the fact that he was accused of
           8  violating certain conditions of his supervised release by his
           9  probation officer?
          10  A.  Yes.
          11  Q.  And in the course of those proceedings, again in front of
          12  Judge Burgess, was he now making these allegations about Ryan
          13  Lund and the illegal plea agreement that he had been coerced
          14  into entering?
          15  A.  Yes.
          16  Q.  And at that hearing, didn't Judge Burgess in fact allow Mr.
          17  Bell to cross-examine you?
          18  A.  Yes, he did.
          19  Q.  Extensively.
          20  A.  Yes.  Over two days, I think.
          21  Q.  And at that hearing, did he make it clear that he believed
          22  that you were part of a government conspiracy to do illegal
          23  surveillance on him?
          24  A.  Yes.  There was -- some of the things that he was asking me
          25  I didn't understand.  But, yes, that was the general thrust, I
           1  believe.
           2  Q.  He made the accusation that vehicles had been following him,
           3  correct?
           4  A.  Yes.
           5  Q.  And do you have any information about vehicles that have
           6  ever followed Mr. Bell?
           7  A.  Well, I think probably back in our original case in '97 we
           8  probably tried to have an agent follow him once or twice.  That
           9  would have been back when we were running our main case back
          10  before his first arrest in '97.  I know that none of the
          11  government agencies or anyone related to them in '98, when he
          12  was on supervised release, tried to do any type of surveillance
          13  or following of him.
          14  Q.  Mr. Bell at that hearing, I believe, made an accusation that
          15  you had obtained an illegal wiretap, or just a wiretap of his
          16  telephone.  Do you recall that?
          17  A.  Yes.
          18  Q.  Have you ever sought a wiretap of Mr. Bell's home?
          19  A.  No.
          20  Q.  Has any other federal or state or local law enforcement
          21  agency, to your knowledge, ever sought or obtained a wiretap of
          22  his home?
          23  A.  I have never heard of any such thing, I have never received
          24  any information relating to such a thing.  There's never been --
          25  we didn't have really a need for it.  All the information that
           1  we used in his prosecution we developed from legal lawful means
           2  that we disclosed all along.
           3  Q.  At the hearing when Mr. Bell was permitted to cross-examine
           4  you, he suggested to you that you had co-opted his neighbors and
           5  allowed -- and persuaded his neighbors to allow you to use their
           6  homes to spy on him.
           7  A.  Right.
           8  Q.  Or something to that effect.  Is that a fair
           9  characterization?
          10  A.  Yes.  It certainly has been one of his allegations, yes.
          11  Q.  Did he in fact say that the neighbors themselves were part
          12  of this conspiracy to spy on him?
          13  A.  He's changed it over time.  I mean, some -- in the past he
          14  would claim that they were actually federal agents or that the
          15  feds had moved into those houses, and over time now he's just
          16  recently been claiming that they just knew that the feds were
          17  using their houses, or something like that.  But he seems to be
          18  obsessed with the fact that his neighbors are spying on him and
          19  beaming things at him.
          20  Q.  Now, ultimately Mr. Bell was found to be in violation of his
          21  supervised release, correct?
          22  A.  Yes.
          23  Q.  And he was sent back to prison for a time, correct?
          24  A.  Yes.
          25  Q.  And he got out about a year ago, isn't that correct?
           1  A.  Around April 2000, yes.
           2  Q.  Now, the jury has heard testimony about the guns that were
           3  returned to a designee of his.  About the time that Mr. Bell was
           4  getting ready to be released a year ago, were you engaged in any
           5  kind of discussions or negotiations with an attorney of his to
           6  arrange for the release of the guns to someone that he
           7  designated?
           8  A.  Yes.  As far back as 1997 we were trying to return Mr.
           9  Bell's -- or at least some of Mr. Bell's property to him.  And I
          10  engaged with at least three different of his attorneys through
          11  the years in discussions as to how to get them back to him, who
          12  would accept these, you know.  Where can I send this
          13  information -- who's going to come and pick this up so we can
          14  get it out of our office?  By 2000, I was again doing that,
          15  trying to return the vast majority of his items, including his
          16  guns.  We exchanged letters.  Usual -- we didn't exchange
          17  letters.  We would send letters to the attorneys giving them a
          18  deadline saying, you know, please come and pick this up by, or
          19  tell us what you want us to do with it.  We offered to ship it
          20  directly to Mr. Bell's residence.  We're trying to give it back
          21  to him and we're getting no -- every time we would set a
          22  deadline, we would get no response, and so I would ask my boss
          23  if we could destroy them, and he would say no, set another
          24  deadline and send another letter.
          25      Eventually I just even --
           1  Q.  I'm going to stop you there for a second.  Who were the
           2  letters being sent to?
           3  A.  Mr. Bell's attorneys.
           4  Q.  He had attorneys, correct?
           5  A.  Yes.
           6  Q.  And these attorneys were dealing with you on this question
           7  at your office address, correct?
           8  A.  Yes.
           9  Q.  All correspondence was being exchanged from your office to
          10  his attorney's office.
          11  A.  Right.
          12  Q.  Correct?  Are you familiar with the exhibit that's been
          13  offered into evidence that is the -- a letter from Mr. Bell to
          14  his attorney, Mr. Solovy, concerning the arrangements to get
          15  property back?
          16  A.  I'm not sure exactly which one that is.
          17  Q.  Okay.  Well, I will come back to that.
          18      I want to ask you about the guns for a moment.  Were the
          19  guns taken during the execution of the search warrant in 1997?
          20  A.  Yes, they were.
          21  Q.  And now that Mr. Bell had a felony conviction on his record
          22  for the '97 conviction, was he, what we call, a prohibited
          23  person in the sense that he was not lawfully permitted to have
          24  those guns back?
          25  A.  Correct.  As a convicted felon he's not entitled to possess
           1  firearms.
           2  Q.  And so, presumably, that is why one had to arrange for a
           3  designee or somebody for him to designate to receive those for
           4  him.
           5  A.  Right.  And we told his attorneys along the way that, you
           6  know, we would ship his property back to him, but the guns would
           7  have to be signed over to somebody who is legally entitled to
           8  possess them.
           9  Q.  Now, were you monitoring Mr. Bell or any of his activities
          10  while he was still in prison about a year ago, just before he
          11  was about to get out?
          12  A.  I was -- I don't know that I was monitoring him.  I would
          13  receive -- depending on what he was doing, people tended to --
          14  who were in contact with him tended to call me on occasion and
          15  provide me with their concerns or information about him, and I
          16  was also contacted by other law enforcement agencies who were
          17  interested or concerned about him.
          18  Q.  Is it fair to say that you continued to maintain a certain
          19  interest in Mr. Bell, even as his release was approaching?
          20  A.  Yes.
          21  Q.  And why was that?
          22  A.  Because based on the information that was coming in, the
          23  information that was on the Internet, it was clear that -- and
          24  being based on even at the probation hearing, it was clear that
          25  he was being very obsessed with this whole conspiracy thing,
           1  that he blamed me and the agency and -- for these types of
           2  things.  And that it appeared that there was going to be some --
           3  that we may end up with a problem with him or some substantial
           4  security issues when he finally got out of jail, and we knew he
           5  was going to get out of jail.
           6  Q.  You were present at the execution of the search warrant at
           7  his residence in 1997.  There's been reference to the fact that
           8  chemicals were found there.  What can you tell us about
           9  chemicals that were found?  Without referring to anything that
          10  Mr. Bell may have ever said, you know, in the process of any
          11  kind of interview, what was found at the property in the way of
          12  chemicals?
          13  A.  There were quite a few chemicals in the garage.  There was
          14  acids, there was cyanide.  There were some specific chemicals in
          15  the garage.  We ended up evacuating for -- much of the search
          16  warrant due to haz-mat and various agencies that took a look at
          17  it to figure out what we were going to do.
          18  Q.  You said evacuating.  Are you saying that it -- a decision
          19  was made to evacuate members of the search team, or at least to
          20  evacuate the house while you determined what some of these
          21  things were?
          22  A.  Right.  It was a fairly chaotic search warrant because of
          23  that.  Just by -- you know, we were just getting set up and we
          24  had to pull out for several, several hours.  There was debate
          25  about whether it was even safe to go back into the house at
           1  all.  Haz-mat --
           2  Q.  What is haz-mat?  You've got to --
           3  A.  I'm sorry.
           4  Q.  -- explain those things for not only the jury, but for the
           5  court reporter.
           6  A.  The hazardous materials team for the Vancouver Fire
           7  Department was one of the agencies that responded to the scene.
           8  They told -- they told us that they wouldn't go into the
           9  residence at all.  They didn't feel it was safe, and they
          10  weren't sure that it would ever be safe to go in there.  But
          11  there -- so there was some debate about whether we should just
          12  walk away from the search warrant and leave it.  So there was a
          13  lot of concern about what the chemicals were and how dangerous
          14  they were and what we were going to do with them.  We eventually
          15  made a decision to go back in but to do it very quickly, and to
          16  seize -- you know, not to do as detailed and thorough of a
          17  search as we normally would do but to see if we could, you know,
          18  get the items we were looking for and get out of there as
          19  quickly as we could.
          20  Q.  Was a decision made to analyze any or all of the chemicals
          21  that were found to see if they in fact posed any kind of a
          22  hazard?
          23  A.  Yeah.  The EPA eventually came out and seized quite a few of
          24  the chemicals.  We sent the list of the chemicals back through
          25  the EPA scientist to the Army Military Specialists in Chemical
           1  Warfare.  They told us that the --
           2           MR. LEEN:  Objection.  Hearsay.
           3           MR. LONDON:  Actually, Your Honor, it's not being
           4  offered for the truth of what it was but for what his state of
           5  mind was in.
           6           THE COURT:  Was it through, the information, through
           7  some law enforcement agency coming to this witness' attention?
           8           MR. LONDON:  (Nods head.)
           9           THE COURT:  If it is, it will stand.
          10           MR. LONDON:  Yes.  It's being offered to show that this
          11  witness, who's here in a, I suppose, a hybrid capacity today as
          12  an investigator but also as a victim, had information that the
          13  chemicals involved were such that they could be synthesized to
          14  make a kind of Sarin gas.  That's why he's afraid.
          15           THE COURT:  I'm asking, did he receive it in his
          16  official capacity?
          17           MR. LEEN:  Your Honor, I move to strike the
          18  prosecutor's testimony.
          19           THE COURT:  There's no testimony.  I'm asking him a
          20  question.
          21      Is this information you're attempting to elicit received by
          22  this witness through his official capacity in this case?
          23           MR. LONDON:  It was at the time, Your Honor, yes.
          24           THE COURT:  It will stand.
          25           MR. LONDON:  All right.
           1  Q.  (By Mr. London)  What reports did you receive back from
           2  other agencies or the military who had had a chance to analyze
           3  some of these chemicals to see what they would be capable of
           4  doing, either on their own or mixed together?
           5  A.  The report came back both through the EPA and through the
           6  Army's, I forgot what they're called, but their chemical weapons
           7  specialist --
           8           MR. LEEN:  I object.
           9           THE COURT:  Overruled.
          10  A.  -- that there were two basic serious concerns.  One was that
          11  the cyanide and the acid could be mixed together to form some
          12  sort of nerve agent, highly toxic.  And the other was that the
          13  -- there was one other chemical that was like a precursor to a
          14  Sarin derivative or to a similar chemical to Sarin.  Precursor
          15  meaning that you mixed it with or did something with it and it
          16  becomes Sarin.  Or similar to Sarin.
          17  Q.  (By Mr. London)  All right.  So now let's come back now to
          18  last spring.  Mr. Bell is released from prison, and you've made
          19  reference to the fact that you were receiving information about
          20  him from other sources.  Are you talking about law enforcement
          21  sources?
          22  A.  To a certain extent, but essentially Mr. Bell was in
          23  contact, for the most part, with other people in jail and
          24  contacting people from jail or writing letters, and quite a few
          25  of the people that are -- at least several of the people that he
           1  was in contact with had contacted me just kind of as a
           2  cautionary heads up to say, hey, you may want to watch out for
           3  this guy because he seems obsessed with you.
           4           MR. LEEN:  Object, Your Honor, to what individuals
           5  might have said that weren't in law enforcement.
           6           THE COURT:  I will ask again.  Did he receive it in his
           7  official capacity?
           8           MR. LONDON:  Yes.
           9           THE COURT:  You may talk about it.  Overrule the
          10  objection.
          11  A.  So I was getting calls from people who were basically giving
          12  me a heads up to say, you had better be cautious about this.
          13  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Now, is it fair to say that in your private
          14  contacts with Mr. Bell in court, especially in the hearings in
          15  front of Judge Burgess that I believe lasted a couple of days,
          16  that he -- is it clear that he had certain strong feelings about
          17  you, is that a fair statement?
          18  A.  Yes.
          19  Q.  So when he got out, is it fair to say that you were also
          20  aware of him because you knew that, that he really was very
          21  concerned about you in a way that was perhaps not friendly?
          22  A.  Absolutely.  I was familiar with his background.  I had been
          23  receiving these reports.  I read Declan McCullagh's news
          24  article.
          25  Q.  And what was there in Declan McCullagh's news article that
           1  caused you to take notice or be concerned that maybe the old
           2  pattern was repeating itself?
           3  A.  Well, he clearly wasn't backing off from any of the types of
           4  activities that we had arrested and prosecuted him for in the
           5  first place.  He wasn't recanting.  He was still advocating the
           6  Assassination Politics, the assassination of essentially
           7  government officials, and specifically tax collectors to bring
           8  about the overthrow of the government.  And he was -- he said
           9  something in there about they had better resign now and hope for
          10  mercy.
          11      So it was clear that, you know, our hope, which was that the
          12  prose- -- the initial prosecution and subsequent, the originally
          13  supervision, would bring about a modification in his behavior so
          14  he wouldn't keep coming after either the agency or us.
          15  Q.  The agents -- shortly after Mr. McCullagh's article appeared
          16  in Wired, the first one, anyway, which I believe appeared on
          17  April 14th, shortly after that, he got out of prison, correct?
          18  A.  Yeah.  I think he actually got out around April 14th.
          19  Q.  All right.  Shortly after that, did you get a telephone call
          20  from Vancouver, someone in the Vancouver Police Department,
          21  saying that he had been seen at a voter registration office?
          22           MR. LEEN:  Objection.  Hearsay.
          23           THE COURT:  Pardon?
          24           MR. LEEN:  Objection.  Hearsay.
          25           THE COURT:  Are you asking if he got --
           1           MR. LONDON:  I will break it down.
           2  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Did you get a telephone call from someone
           3  at the Vancouver Police Department shortly after Mr. Bell got
           4  out of prison?
           5  A.  Yes.
           6  Q.  Was it about Mr. Bell?
           7  A.  Yes.
           8  Q.  Did it involve --
           9           THE COURT:  Is there an objection to that?
          10           MR. LEEN:  Yes.
          11           THE COURT:  Overruled.
          12           MR. LEEN:  No, not that.  Not that.  Not that.
          13  Q.  (Mr. London)  What was the subject of the telephone call?
          14           MR. LEEN:  That I will object to.
          15           THE COURT:  Overruled.
          16  A.  He told me to pass on information that Mr. Bell, who was
          17  now, based on, among other things, John Branton's, some of the
          18  news articles, relatively well-known in Vancouver, that the
          19  people in the voter registration office had seen him in the
          20  voter registration office in Vancouver looking up apparently
          21  names or addresses -- voter registration records.
          22  Q.  (By Mr. London)  All right.  Did you also receive complaints
          23  from anyone in Mr. Bell's neighborhood about smoke or something
          24  that smelled toxic coming from any -- from the vicinity of his
          25  house?
           1  A.  Yes.  Well, not from the neighborhood directly.  I received
           2  a call, I don't remember -- we had several discussions about
           3  this, but essentially from the Vancouver Fire Department, had
           4  been receiving complaints in --
           5           MR. LEEN:  Objection.
           6  A.  -- the summer --
           7           MR. LEEN:  Objection, Your Honor.  Nonresponsive.
           8           THE COURT:  What's the question?
           9  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Did you receive any information from the
          10  Vancouver Fire Department about smoke or a toxic smell coming
          11  from the vicinity of Mr. Bell's house?
          12  A.  Yes.
          13           MR. LEEN:  Objection.
          14           THE COURT:  He may answer.
          15           MR. LEEN:  Objection.  Hearsay.
          16           THE COURT:  He may answer.
          17  A.  Yes.  I talked to several people, but among them, Vancouver
          18  Fire Department.  It was the summer of 2000, the weather was
          19  quite warm, and they were getting complaints that there was a
          20  black smoke coming out of his chimney.  They were concerned
          21  because, among other things, it was summertime so there was no
          22  need normally to burn things to warm your house and that
          23  normally if you are just burning wood or normal things, you
          24  don't get this black smoke.  They were concerned that possibly
          25  he was burning chemicals or doing something in the fireplace,
           1  and there was a lot of discussion about whether that was
           2  chemicals or -- and there's a lot of concern about that.
           3  Q.  (By Mr. London)  Now, at this point, were you monitoring, as
           4  best you could, any possible use that he might be making under
           5  his own name in any way of the Internet?
           6  A.  Well, we were -- I was checking, yes, the public portions of
           7  the Internet to see if there were any publicly posted things or
           8  information from him or about him and reviewing --
           9  Q.  How did you check that?  I mean, how would you go about, you
          10  know, getting on your computer, getting onto the Internet, and
          11  seeing if -- what, if anything, Mr. Bell was posting to the
          12  Internet?
          13  A.  A couple different ways, one of which was the Cypherpunks
          14  list.  I knew from the previous investigation that he would
          15  occasionally, or posts to the Cypherpunks list, and throughout
          16  the case a lot of information about him or from him was posted
          17  to the Cypherpunks list, which is publicly accessible to anybody
          18  on the Internet.  So that was one place that I would check to
          19  see if there was any information.
          20      There is also the Usenet portion, or it's kind of a bulletin
          21  board portion of the Internet where these different groups and
          22  organizations that talk, and you can just search that using a
          23  search engine to see if there's any postings.
          24  Q.  On September 15th, did you spot an email that he posted to
          25  the Cypherpunks list mentioning Mike McNall and Ryan Lund?
           1  A.  I'm not sure.  I know there's an email dated September
           2  15th.  I'm not exactly sure what the date that I saw it was, but
           3  it would probably have been within a few days of it having been
           4  posted.  Yes.
           5  Q.  Is this the one that -- in which he said, "I suspect that it
           6  was Agent McNall who did the deal with Lund," correct?
           7  A.  Yes.
           8  Q.  Did you notify Mr. McNall that you had come across this?
           9  A.  Yes, I did.  Knowing Mr. Bell's history and the possibility
          10  that he might be targeting or doing something now or focusing on
          11  Agent McNall, I just called over to the -- from the phone book,
          12  I believe, the Portland ATF office and asked for Agent McNall,
          13  left a message for him, and eventually got in contact with him.
          14  Had to kind of start from scratch explaining what was going on
          15  regarding this posting situation.
          16  Q.  Now, on October 10th, did you find Mr. Bell, or find an
          17  email from Mr. Bell on the Internet telling other people by
          18  email to look up Assassination Politics?
          19  A.  I'm not sure of the date, but I know there have been several
          20  emails where he's reaffirmed or asked people to read his essay,
          21  Assassination Politics, and pointed them to the various -- to
          22  the website, to John Young's website where it's stored.
          23  Q.  I want to ask you to look, if you will, at Exhibit 130.  We
          24  will put that on the screen for you.
          25  A.  Okay.
           1  Q.  Do you recognize Exhibit 130?
           2  A.  Yes.  And I see my initials on it showing that this is an
           3  exhibit that I created.
           4  Q.  Does that mean that you downloaded that from the Internet?
           5  A.  Right.  I received this -- this is an email that was posted
           6  to the Cypherpunks list.  I created an email account
           7  specifically to receive those emails, and this is a version of
           8  the -- this is the original email then that I received from the
           9  Internet that I then printed out and I initialed and dated.
          10  Q.  All right.  Now, what caught your attention about this email
          11  and made you decide that it had some significance?  I mean, this
          12  is the one entitled "judges needing killing."
          13  A.  Right.
          14  Q.  But it actually -- originally, the original judges needing
          15  killing email was not written by Mr. Bell, correct?
          16  A.  That's true.  Although, anything with a title like "judges
          17  needing killing" is usually something that will catch my
          18  attention as a law enforcement officer, and I tend to read those
          19  types of messages.
          20  Q.  Right.  So what was there in this exchange that caused you
          21  to be concerned?
          22  A.  Well --
          23  Q.  About Mr. Bell.
          24  A.  Yeah.  This one was of particular concern because now he was
          25  again -- this is the one where he discusses getting -- using
           1  PCPs -- PCBs, polychlorinated biphenyls -- against, in assorted
           2  government targets, contaminating cars that have been seized by
           3  the government with these PCBs.  And here, again, this is a
           4  little different, but again similar to what he had done in the
           5  past using chemicals against government targets, and he was
           6  discussing doing that, and that was again a concern.
           7  Q.  And in this -- look also at 131 and 132 and 133.  What do
           8  those appear to be?
           9  A.  Now, 131 is the same email message as 130; they are just
          10  from different sources.  130 is the one that I saw on the
          11  Internet, and it's got -- I think one of the other witnesses
          12  mentioned -- extended headers.  Normally you don't see these on
          13  an email message that you get, but because I use this account
          14  for law enforcement we sometimes need to trace the message over
          15  the Internet from where it came, so I have all messages come in
          16  with these extended headers which is what allows somebody like
          17  Hilda Muramoto, who testified, to tell you who sent it or trace
          18  back where it came from.  So that's on 130.
          19      131 is the one that came in through, I believe, John
          20  Rabatin.  It's the outgoing version from the sent box from Mr.
          21  Bell's computer.  So it's the same message that was sent; one
          22  from the receiving end, one from the sent end.
          23      Do you want me to talk about 132, also?
          24  Q.  Yes.  And 133.
          25  A.  132 is another, a later email message, still on the subject
           1  titled "judges needing killing," and in this message still
           2  discussing the PCBs.  Somebody had responded to his initial
           3  message suggesting using PCBs and stated that, you know, PCBs
           4  are hard to acquire.  That's -- there's a little caret showing
           5  that that's somebody else saying that.  And Mr. Bell responded,
           6  "I beg to differ.  Check the material I downloaded below.
           7  Acquiring PCB's requires little more than the will to do it.
           8  Believe me, I know."  And the word "know" has kind of got little
           9  underlines on either side which is a way of emphasizing
          10  something when you are speaking on the Internet or typing on the
          11  Internet.
          12      This, of course, was a very -- even more of a concern now
          13  because this "I know" when talking about PCBs and acquiring them
          14  indicates to me that he's trying to at least hint that he has
          15  acquired these PCBs that he previously suggested be used against
          16  vehicles seized by the government or to use to contaminate
          17  government property.
          18      So this was quite an escalation, in my mind, especially
          19  after -- in considering the black smoke that was coming out of
          20  his chimney and the complaints, at least the allegation of
          21  that.  So.  And this is -- it was at this point that we opened
          22  up a new investigation in 2000 on Mr. Bell.
          23  Q.  "Judges needing killing" appeared initially on October
          24  19th.  On October 24th, just five days later, did you see the
          25  email that we have as Exhibit 140, and another version as 141,
           1  "Say Goodnight to Joshua"?
           2  A.  Right.  140, again, this is my version that I downloaded --
           3  that I saw on the Internet and downloaded and initialed and
           4  received, whereas 141 is the same email, only the version from
           5  his computer that was the original copy from the sent box.  This
           6  one was a concern to me immediately because I could -- I wasn't
           7  sure exactly what he was talking about.  I had no idea at this
           8  point who Joshua was, but I realized that Joshua must be the son
           9  of somebody, and knowing that he's -- you know, the reference to
          10  a thug, I had seen many, many times in Jim's writings and things
          11  and I knew that's his term for law enforcement in general.  So I
          12  realized that he must have been out.  He says he's been out
          13  doing research and did a field trip and meant to be seen, so I
          14  figured he had done something someplace.  I wasn't sure at that
          15  point who or what or where.  In fact, I made a call to see if --
          16  he had also been focusing a little bit on a Vancouver police
          17  officer, so I called up to Vancouver to see if maybe Joshua was
          18  that person's son.
          19  Q.  But it turned out not to be?
          20  A.  That's correct.  Actually, when I called up there, they --
          21  by that point they had -- I had left a message, and by the time
          22  they called back, they had already spoken to Agent McNall, who
          23  was calling to report back in that Mr. Bell had been on his
          24  property.  So at that point, we were starting to put together
          25  that maybe this had something to do with Mike McNall.
           1  Q.  Now, the "Say Good Night to Joshua" email, you saw that on
           2  October 24th.  In fact, the same day, did you also monitor
           3  Internet communication between Mr. Bell and John Young about the
           4  CIA in Oregon?
           5  A.  Well, what -- let me -- do you have an exhibit number?
           6  Q.  If you will look at 150, 151.
           7  A.  Okay.
           8  Q.  In fact, right through 158.
           9  A.  Keeping in mind that -- the emails are dated that specific
          10  day, but it doesn't necessarily mean that that's exactly when I
          11  saw them.  And when we say that I was monitoring communications
          12  between them, what I monitored was the public postings on the
          13  Internet.  We were not monitoring any email communications
          14  between private parties, but when they would post something
          15  publicly, in this case to the Cypherpunks list, that was
          16  publicly available to anybody on the Internet, and still is to
          17  this day.  So that, that would be the kind of thing that I would
          18  be watching normally on the Internet.
          19      And, yes, I saw John Young's initial posting.  I saw Jim
          20  Bell's responses.  151 is the document I downloaded from the
          21  Internet, my version of it.  152 is the same document
          22  subsequently obtained from Mr. Bell's computer from his out
          23  box.
          24      Were there other exhibits?
          25  Q.  Well, the sequence involving --
           1  A.  Right.  Like 155 is also another CIA in Oregon that I
           2  downloaded myself from the Internet that I had seen publicly
           3  posted, which is associated then with 156.  Again, the same
           4  email, only this time from Mr. Bell's out box that we recovered
           5  after the search warrant.
           6      157, same thing.  This is my version that I saw on the
           7  Internet and downloaded and initialed.
           8      158, basically the same email.  They look different on the
           9  first page again because of these headers that are on the
          10  received version that would help us trace it back, but it's --
          11  the text is the same because it's from the out box.
          12  Q.  Please look at 162.  Four, five days later after the
          13  exchange with John Young about the CIA in Oregon, did you see a
          14  posting by Mr. Bell to the Cypherpunks discussing --
          15  A.  162 is a post again that I downloaded from the Internet from
          16  Mr. Bell that was publicly posted to Cypherpunks.  On this one,
          17  the to box says to A. Melon, but Cypherpunks is also one of the
          18  additional addresses on there.
          19  Q.  All right.  And what caught your eye on this particular
          20  email?
          21  A.  In this one, it's the statement, "And there are no 'statutes
          22  of limitation' on our response to these people regardless of
          23  current law."  So that particular statement concerned -- again
          24  concerned me.  Although that's pretty much typical Jim Bell
          25  statement and philosophy, which is he doesn't care what the
           1  current law is, he believes that he can retaliate against
           2  law enforcement or anyone in government for anything that he
           3  perceives is not right.  And in this case, they're talking
           4  about, I think, gun laws and drug laws and his, you know,
           5  statement that, you know, not only is -- is, you know, it
           6  okay for him to retaliate, but there's a -- there's no statute
           7  of limitations.  This is the rest -- you know, he can come
           8  after us forever for what he perceives to be our offenses
           9  against him.
          10      He also is discussing in here getting voter registration
          11  office and ordering a copy of the voter registration databases
          12  for current and future use, which is part and parcel of it.
          13  Let's go find out where they live in case we want to use it now,
          14  or if we can't do it now, in case we want to find out where they
          15  live so we can get them later.
          16           MR. LONDON:  I will ask the court, would this be a good
          17  time to stop for the day?
          18           THE COURT:  All right.  The jury's cautioned:  Please
          19  do not discuss the case among yourselves or anyone else over
          20  the evening recess.  Be in the jury room at 9:30 tomorrow
          21  morning.
          22      (Jury excused at 4:43 p.m.)
          23           THE COURT:  Will the security people please see that
          24  nobody leaves this courtroom until that jury clears that
          25  corridor out there.  Everybody remain until the security people
           1  say you're free to leave.
           2      The witness may step down.
           3      To both parties:  Is there a redacted copy of Exhibit 51?
           4           MR. LONDON:  We have agreed on the redactions but we
           5  haven't had a chance to make it yet, so we will bring that to
           6  court tomorrow morning.
           7           THE COURT:  All right.  How many more witnesses do you
           8  have?
           9           MR. LONDON:  Mr. Gordon is the last witness for the
          10  Government's case in chief.
          11           THE COURT:  All right.
          12      Are they out of there?
          13           MR. LEEVER:  No, Your Honor.  They are still in the
          14  jury room, Your Honor.  It's taking a few minutes.
          15           THE COURT:  See if anybody is still in there.
          16           MR. LEEN:  What time did the court say we start
          17  tomorrow morning?
          18           THE COURT:  Pardon?
          19           MR. LEEN:  9:30 tomorrow morning?
          20           THE COURT:  9:30.
          21      All right.  One more?
          22           MR. LEEVER:  Yes.
          23           THE COURT:  Check with the security officer and see
          24  when that person goes by.
          25           THE CLERK:  He will let us know when the juror walks
           1  by.  He went in his restroom.
           2      It's clear.
           3           THE COURT:  All clear?
           4      Court's in recess.
           5      (Recessed at 4:45 p.m.)
           6                        C E R T I F I C A T E
           7       I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from
           8  the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter.
          12  ________________________________             October 22, 2001
          13          JULAINE V. RYEN                            Date

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