24 October 2000
Source: Court Reporters Office of the Southern District of New York

See related court docket: http://cryptome.org/qaeda102000.htm

This transcript is from an appearance by Mamdouh Mahmud Salim before Judge Sand on October 20, 2000. Mr. Salim is one of 17 defendants in the bombing of US Embassies in Kenya and Sudan.



   2   ------------------------------x


   4              v.                           S(6)98CR1023(LBS)


   6                  Defendant.

   7   ------------------------------x

   8                                           October 20, 2000
                                               2:00 p.m.
                           HON. LEONARD B. SAND,
                                               District Judge

  13                            APPEARANCES

       United States Attorney
  15   for the Southern District of New York
       BY:  KEN KARAS
  16        MICHAEL GARCIA

  18   Attorneys for Defendant

       Michael Anticev,
  20   FBI Agent
       Lili Grant
  21   Gerard Franceso, Paralegals, US Attorney's Office

  22   Interpreters:



                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1            (In open court)

   2            THE COURT:  Good afternoon.  You may be seated.  Mr.

   3   McAllister.

   4            MR. MC ALLISTER:  Yes, your Honor.

   5            THE COURT:  Call your next witness.

   6            MR. MC ALLISTER:  Mr. Salim.

   7            (Pause)

   8            MR. MC ALLISTER:  Your Honor, just so you know,

   9   Mr. Salim wishes to affirm rather than to be sworn.

  10            THE COURT:  Very well.


  12        the defendant, testifed as follows:

  13            THE DEPUTY CLERK:  (Through the interpreter)

  14            Do you solemnly and truly declare and affirm the

  15   testimony you're about to give this court during the

  16   suppression hearing shall be the truth the wholly truth and

  17   nothing but the truth, you do so declare and affirm.

  18            THE WITNESS:  Yes.

  19            May I sit down?

  20            THE COURT:  Yes.

  21            THE DEPUTY CLERK:  Please state your full name.

  22            THE WITNESS:  May I have a moment please to just

  23   arrange my papers?

  24            THE COURT:  Yes.

  25            (Pause)

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1            THE WITNESS:  They brought me suddenly unexpectedly

   2   so I didn't have enough time to arrange my papers.

   3            THE COURT:  Maybe he can just state what is his name.

   4            THE DEFENDANT (In English):  Okay.  My name Mamdouh

   5   son of Mahmud son of Salim.

   6            THE DEPUTY CLERK:  Thank you.

   7            (Pause)

   8            THE COURT:  Mr. McAllister, you may begin.



  11   Q.  Good afternoon, Mr. Salim.

  12            Mr. Salim, were you arrested in Munich, Germany on

  13   September 16 of 1998?

  14   A.  Yes.

  15   Q.  Will you please describe for us the circumstances of your

  16   arrest, where it occurred and how it occurred?

  17   A.  At 4 p.m. Wednesday, 16th of September I had not yet had

  18   my lunch.  I and my friend Awad went out to the automobile

  19   dealership looking for a car.  When we arrived at the

  20   dealership and we got out of the car that we were driving,

  21   some armed men approached us from behind and they pointed the

  22   guns to my head and they asked me to lie on the floor on my

  23   stomach, and they handcuffed us and they took us to the

  24   police.  I did not know what was the reason for the arrest.

  25   Q.  You were arrested with other people you told us?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   A.  Well, yes, there were other different people at the

   2   dealership.

   3   Q.  Can you tell us who else was arrested, if you know?

   4   A.  The Germans I don't know because they released them

   5   immediately.  There was also another friend of mine who is a

   6   German, but who was originally an Arab.  His name is Awad.

   7   All the circumstances of the arrest were shot by video.

   8   Q.  Well, that was my next question.

   9            You say there was a video recording of the arrest.

  10   Is that correct?

  11   A.  The same, the people who arrested us had other people with

  12   them who were part of the police force and they were shooting

  13   the events by video.

  14   Q.  Now, let me ask you, when you, at that time, which is

  15   almost two years ago, how was your understanding of the

  16   English language in relation to now?

  17   A.  I may speak in English now to expedite matters and to

  18   reduce the time, but I wish to have the interpreter stand next

  19   to me in case I need any assistance.

  20   Q.  Well, how was your English?  Was it good or bad?  How was

  21   your English, your knowledge of the English language when you

  22   were examined?

  23   A.  (In English) I already studied the electrical engineering

  24   in university for four years and this was up to 1980 which is

  25   20 years ago, and my language at that time until now or at

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   least till the day that they arrest me it was technical

   2   language.  I can speak with an engineer for hours, but with a

   3   lawyer it's very difficult for me to speak for minutes, but

   4   after I'd been arrested and then unfortunately extradited here

   5   I decided to improve my language because I think this will

   6   assist me to defend myself, hoping that I can win the case

   7   because I am innocent.

   8   Q.  Now, then with respect to -- let me withdraw that.

   9            I guess you heard with, the assistance of the

  10   translator, the number of people police officers German and

  11   American testified that they had given you warnings, so-called

  12   Miranda rights in the case of the Americans.  Was that clear

  13   to you?  Were those warnings or rights that were allegedly

  14   given to you, were they clear to you at the time or not?

  15   A.  (In English) For the Miranda I think we should talk about

  16   two type of Miranda because two type of people made

  17   interrogation with me, the Miranda for the German people and

  18   the Miranda for the FBI, I mean which is the United States

  19   people.

  20            Regarding the German, I understood that I had the

  21   right not to talk after eight months of my arrest.  That's the

  22   first time I understood that I had the right not to talk.  It

  23   was in May when I was being already extradited here since the

  24   21st of December '98 but in early matter '99 I received bundle

  25   of German document with associated translated in English from

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   my lawyer, and when I was trying to read these document I

   2   discovered that one paper of the German that the German people

   3   asked me to sign it, without that I understand what is in it,

   4   that when it's been translated into English, it was telling a

   5   story that they informed me about my right not to talk and I

   6   agreed that and I refused to sign the paper.

   7            The funny thing that this alleged paper that I

   8   refused to sign it, which is my Miranda right, it still

   9   exists -- not exist to now, well, more than two years of my

  10   arrest.  Till now we don't have this paper that I refused to

  11   sign it.

  12            But it was just stating the story that there was a

  13   paper and I refused to sign -- I accept to talk, but I refused

  14   to sign it.  This is very, very funny thing because they can

  15   produce 3,000 pages that I agreed, and I refused to sign it.

  16   You can bring as much as you want of paper and just say he

  17   agreed with these things and he refused to sign it.  So this

  18   is regarding to the German Miranda.

  19            When the interpreter asked me to sign this German

  20   document I told him that I cannot sign a German document

  21   because I can read and understand Arabic, but in case it's

  22   difficult for you, if you can put it in English at least then

  23   I can may understand what's in it.  But the interpreter he

  24   told me, the interpreter -- I mean the translator from Arabic

  25   to German and German to Arabic he told me:  You don't trust

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   me?  I am sworn translator and I am not cheating you.

   2            But actually he asked me to sign that but so to

   3   protect myself I wrote in the below, I can sign this paper if

   4   it is in Arabic or English.  And I repeated this thing because

   5   I don't know what is inside.  Of course I knew after eight

   6   months what that paper that I signed for that.

   7   Q.  Now, with respect to the so-called, the American so-called

   8   advice of rights form, you were never shown such a form that

   9   was in English and Arabic while you were in Germany, were you?

  10   A.  (In English) The strange thing that when the FBI came,

  11   although they know that my first language is Arabic, there is

  12   a lot of Arabic-English translator not even here, over there

  13   anywhere, they didn't bring with them from English to Arabic,

  14   but they brought with them English to German, and I cannot

  15   speak German.

  16            Of course I can speak English much better than German

  17   or even for German, maybe I understood only yes and no for

  18   German.  Then they were using another translator from the

  19   German to Arabic.  For the Miranda that they gave it to me it

  20   was in English.  I have here another Miranda which is given to

  21   another codefendant.

  22   Q.  Well, why don't we not refer to the documents at the

  23   moment and just offer your testimony.

  24   A.  I have here Miranda --

  25            THE COURT:  No.  Just answer the questions posed by

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   your attorney.  Go ahead.

   2   Q.  Had you finished your answer concerning the absence of an

   3   American so-called advice of rights form with respect to

   4   whether it was in Arabic and English?  I gather you said were

   5   you not shown one in --

   6   A.  (In English) No, they gave me only in English.

   7   Q.  Now, there was a lot of questioning by the prosecutor of

   8   the various witnesses about promises, whether promises were or

   9   were not made to you in Germany.

  10            Did you have any understandings, whether they were

  11   literal promises or not, did you have any understandings in

  12   your own mind with respect to whether or not there was a

  13   promise or at least and understanding between you and the

  14   interrogators?

  15   A.  (In English) But you are disregarding the last question

  16   that whether there was an Arabic-English, actually yes, there

  17   is an Arabic-English with the FBI, but I show you this

  18   Arabic-English after extradition.  In the airplane the

  19   prosecutor give me my Miranda in Arabic-English.  When I read

  20   it, I shocked.  I told him, no one in the world would sign

  21   this paper.  Then I told him, why you didn't give me this when

  22   you came?  He said, at that time I don't have.  But I told you

  23   I can see about 50 copy with you, and it is just a paper.

  24   It's very important you bring this at least one copy when you

  25   are going to arrest an Arabic accused man.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   Q.  And these 50 copies, do I understand you correctly, that

   2   you saw that on the plane when you were already on the way

   3   here?

   4   A.  (In English) Exactly.

   5   Q.  Long after your interrogation?

   6   A.  (In English) After three months, more than three months of

   7   my arrest and I have this copy for -- that's why you will not

   8   see my signature on this paper, because it's very clear in

   9   Arabic, but they didn't give me an Arabic.  And the more

  10   interesting thing that they have another paper which was given

  11   to United States nation which is one codefendant his name

  12   Wadih El Hage, he's an American, and he has get married with

  13   an American, he has seven child and I think --

  14            MR. GARCIA:  Objection, Judge.  Move to strike.

  15            THE COURT:  Sustained.

  16   A.  (In English)This paper is written in Arabic and English.

  17   This was given.

  18            THE COURT:  Sir, I sustained the objection.  Your

  19   attorney will ask you another question.

  20   Q.  Mr. Salim, I guess I'll put my question that I put last,

  21   although you returned to a previous one.

  22            In your mind were there any understandings, or if

  23   they didn't rise to the level of promises, were you given any

  24   understandings in your own mind concerning what would or would

  25   not happen if you spoke to the American people in Germany?

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   A.  (In English)The paper that I was given in English telling

   2   me that since we are not in the United States we cannot offer

   3   you a lawyer, but in the United States -- sorry -- in the

   4   United States if you could not afford a lawyer, one would be

   5   appointed for you if you wish before any questioning.  So this

   6   is talking that if we were in the United States, but here in

   7   Germany, we will not give you a lawyer, but for the other

   8   Miranda for other defendants --

   9            MR. GARCIA:  Objection.

  10            THE COURT:  What you can testify to are the events

  11   that took place and what you knew and understood in Germany

  12   during the period beginning September 16th and ending sometime

  13   before your extradition.

  14            If you have argument to make, such as what other

  15   documents exist or could have been made, then share them with

  16   your lawyer and I will give your lawyer an opportunity to file

  17   a brief following this hearing in which you can make all of

  18   the arguments that you think will be helpful to you, but for

  19   these purposes all you can testify to is what happened and

  20   what you understood in Germany during the period September

  21   16th up until your extradition, up until the period when you

  22   stopped answering questions in Germany.

  23            Mr. McAllister.

  24            MR. MC ALLISTER:  Thank you, your Honor.

  25   Q.  Mr. Salim, had you completed your answer concerning

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   whether or not in your mind there were any, if not promises,

   2   understandings in your mind concerning what would or would not

   3   happen if you spoke or refused to speak in Germany?  Had you

   4   finished your answer with respect to that?

   5            If so, I'll ask another question.  If not, then you

   6   can answer.

   7   A.  (In English)I was trying to show that my rights was

   8   violated by this paper regarding two things.  Number one --

   9            THE COURT:  We understand that.  Now you were asked

  10   another question now.  Move on, Mr. Salim.  Move on now to the

  11   next question, which is a very important question.  Please

  12   answer it if you can.

  13   Q.  Should I repeat it, Mr. Salim?

  14            THE INTERPRETER:  Please repeat it, yes.

  15   Q.  My question to you was whether or not in your mind there

  16   were any understandings or promises, but if not promises, at

  17   least understandings in your mind, concerning what would or

  18   would not happen if you chose to speak in Germany?

  19   A.  (In English)I think this the positive way to talk about

  20   promise.  There is the a negative way and there is a phrase,

  21   and here it's written that no promises or threats have been

  22   made to me and no pressure or something of any kind has been

  23   used against me.  And the word threat, I don't know what the

  24   meaning of the word threat when I signed this paper.  And

  25   actually there was a threat.  The threat would be

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                               Salim - direct

   1   considerable.  The threat would be considerable if a powerful

   2   man or authority threats you.  I mean if a child will threaten

   3   me, I will not afraid because he's not powerful, but the

   4   people who threat me they're powerful, and I saw by my own

   5   eye, I hear by my own ear that they are powerful.  The sign of

   6   this powerful that the people who came to arrest for the FBI

   7   and the prosecutor they were as a powerful that they were

   8   authorized to take some of the discovery and to put it in

   9   their pocket without allowing -- I mean, before we just

  10   started from the German, and I was looking to the smile, very

  11   good smile from Mr. Karas when he was opening my billfold up

  12   and he was happy when he took it out the Citibank card,

  13   because he saw that I have Citibank card.  Then it would be

  14   very good that they can trace my account.  Hopefully no

  15   tourist would put his money in Citibank, because Citibank is

  16   a --

  17            MR. GARCIA:  Objection.  Move to strike.

  18            THE COURT:  Sustained.  Try it again.

  19   Q.  Were you, were there any understandings -- you can finish

  20   the answer you have -- but were there any understandings in

  21   your mind?

  22   A.  (In English)I finished this regarding -- I finished

  23   this --

  24            THE COURT:  Mr. Salim, try to listen to your lawyer's

  25   questions.  Try to answer his questions.  Don't try to be your

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   own lawyer.  It's a mistake.

   2   Q.  Have you completed that answer, Mr. Salim?

   3   A.  (In English) No, I said I was trying to describe for the

   4   card finished, for the Citibank card, finish.  Among the

   5   things that was arrested with me that was CD Roms and these CD

   6   Roms when I asked for that, who already I think he went from

   7   here, the first day he was, he was here, I asked to have --

   8            THE COURT:  No, no, we're not interested in the first

   9   day that you were here.  Understand --

  10            THE WITNESS:  Okay, okay your Honor.

  11            THE COURT:  September 16th, just before your

  12   extradition to Germany, and the question is your state of mind

  13   when you were asked whether you would answer questions.  You

  14   understand that?

  15            Now, have you told us now what your state of mind was

  16   when you were asked whether you would answer questions by the

  17   Germans or by the Americans?  Have you answered that?

  18            THE WITNESS:  (In English) What I understand that I

  19   been arrest, I should talk anyway, and when he saw by my own

  20   eye and I hear by my own ear when I ask Folger for that, where

  21   is my CDs.  He said, the Americans took the CDs.

  22            I told him, no, they should not take it.  Give them

  23   copy, it's okay.  This should stay with me.  Then I cannot, I

  24   cannot do that.  They took it already and I have proof for

  25   that.  I have inventory with the things that extradite with

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   me, the CDs are missing.  Why?  Because it was he already told

   2   me --

   3            MR. GARCIA:  Objection, Judge.

   4            THE COURT:  I think you have to move on.  I think the

   5   question has been put to the witness three times, and I assume

   6   what we're just hearing is the witness' response to that

   7   question.  So move on.

   8            MR. MC ALLISTER:  Let me try it another way.

   9   Q.  Did you have any understanding in your own mind one way or

  10   the other what would happen if you didn't speak in Germany?

  11   In other words, did you have any --

  12   A.  (In English) For the German as I, as I described for the

  13   German, no one told me that I have the right to have a lawyer.

  14   I'm talking about the first day, when the first day, no one

  15   told me that I had the right to have a lawyer and no one told

  16   me that I can keep silent, because as I already accepting

  17   that, regardless regarding to the Miranda, English Miranda

  18   when I was trying to read it, then there were double

  19   translation that the FBI agents was trying to read it to me,

  20   and the English-German was translated to German, then the

  21   German to Arabic was translated to Arabic, and then if I want

  22   to respond in Arabic it will go Arabic to German-English and

  23   when I saw this is long way.  I told them forget about that.

  24   I will read this paper.

  25            THE COURT:  What was your understanding of what would

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   happen to you if you didn't answer questions as compared to

   2   what would happen to you if you did answer questions?

   3            THE WITNESS:  (In English) For the first night when

   4   I, when I was trying to read it, I couldn't understand.  Then

   5   I asked the FBI, why not you let me read it tomorrow?  Then we

   6   could talk.  But the, the FBI he told me, we cannot talk with

   7   you unless you sign.  And this was not being used the German.

   8   The German they did not tell me that there is a Miranda and if

   9   you didn't sign, we'll not talk with you, because I didn't see

  10   that paper till now.  We don't have this paper.  So actually

  11   the FBI for the first night they failed to persuade or to

  12   convince me or to let me to sign this paper.  I took this

  13   paper with me to my cell.

  14   Q.  Let me ask you, Mr. Salim.  Obviously, you didn't want to

  15   be brought to America.  That's true, isn't it?

  16   A.  (In English) Second day they brought me again for

  17   interrogation and again the FBI introduced me this paper.

  18            THE COURT:  Mr. Salim, did you hear the question that

  19   was asked?  The question was:  Did you want to be brought to

  20   America?  Can you answer that yes or no?

  21            THE WITNESS:  (In English) No, no, why I should, I

  22   did nothing to go there.

  23   Q.  Right now my next question is:  Did you think you would be

  24   brought to America if you did not speak in Germany?

  25   A.  (In English) I been, I been sure, sure.  I mean it was

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   very clear not from my understanding.  It was orally I hear,

   2   but I'm just trying to describe when I hear this.  Second day

   3   when I came and again the FBI asked me to sign this paper, I

   4   told them I didn't, I was not able to read this paper because

   5   last night I came back to my cell hungry, and sleepy or hungry

   6   and I want to sleep, and all the night they were awakened me.

   7   He said, okay, then you should write, you should read it now

   8   and sign it.  Then I told him, no, I, I need time to.  He

   9   said, no, you should read it now and sign it.

  10            Why don't we talk?  He said, we cannot talk to you

  11   unless you sign this one.  Then I asked --

  12            THE COURT:  Excuse me.  This is that evening while

  13   you're in your cell you were asked to read and sign?

  14            THE WITNESS:  (In English) No, I'm talking about the

  15   second day of being seen morning when I've been brought again,

  16   when I've been brought again for interrogation I told them I

  17   didn't read it, because I didn't sleep until now when I came.

  18   Even Folger he asked me, why you are look like weak and

  19   sleepy?  I told him because your people didn't let me sleep

  20   all the night till now.

  21            Then I ask Mr. Karas, ask him if I didn't sign this

  22   one, or if I didn't talk with you, what will happen?  He says,

  23   nothing will happen.  We will go to United States and we will

  24   bring you there to talk there.  Said, then I told him, okay,

  25   then.  This seems to me that I don't have option, I should

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   talk.  He says no, you have, you have option.  Then I repeat,

   2   but if I didn't, what will happen?  He says, we will go and

   3   we'll take you America.  I told him no, I don't want to go to

   4   America.  I did nothing.  When I hear from this, and I saw by

   5   what happened for the City and for the Citicard I understood

   6   that is a powerful man.  He's asked me that if I didn't talk

   7   with him, they will take me to the United States.

   8   Q.  Now, you talked to us a little bit about right from the

   9   first night what was going on in the prison in Germany, that

  10   is right from September 16th of 1998, is that correct?

  11            Why don't you tell us about the prison conditions

  12   under which you were kept from September 16th on?

  13   A.  (In English) At the same night that they took me back to

  14   prison at night they keep knocking my door, talking with me

  15   every hour, sometimes even less than an hour, and they will

  16   not, the guard will not leave me till I talk with him, I

  17   should respond.  I should say anything.  And this continued

  18   till morning.  And this is starting the first night.

  19            That's why when I went to interrogation morning

  20   Folger asked me, and I told him because I couldn't sleep.

  21   Then he told me I was talk with them for this matter and

  22   actually he talked with them.  Then I complain again the

  23   second day, telling him, they are still awaken me.  He said

  24   no, I get you a permission that you can respond by hand.  If

  25   you are sleeping, they will knock every hour and you can make

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   like this.  It's enough, no need to talk.

   2            I told him, okay, then I should then awake to talk or

   3   to wave, just in the same.  And this continued during all the

   4   interrogation for the FBI and, unfortunately, it's continue

   5   with all the time with interrogation for the German, but they

   6   reduce it from one hour to be two hours, and remain with me

   7   till I be extradited here, but they reduce it to make it after

   8   two times before 12 o'clock, and two times awake me after 12

   9   o'clock.

  10            I think the first night that I sleep was comfortable

  11   it was here in the United States when I was right here when

  12   they put me in the MCC was the first night after three month

  13   of suffering that the guard they didn't awake me in MCC

  14   because the game was over.

  15   Q.  Now, going back again to that second day, the 17th, that

  16   was the day after your initial arrest.  You were taken to

  17   court on that day, were you not, the 17th of September of

  18   1998?

  19   A.  (In English) Yes, on 17th as I said without, without

  20   option I should sign, because if I didn't sign after they talk

  21   I will be extradited here.  Then after sign I talked with them

  22   with the FBI people, but I don't know for how long.  You see

  23   from the paper.

  24   Q.  But my question to you is --

  25   A.  (In English) They took me after that.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   Q.  -- were you taken to court?

   2   A.  (In English) I mean after I signed this one then they took

   3   me to the Court.

   4   Q.  And when you arrived at court at some point did you ask

   5   for a lawyer?

   6   A.  (In English) This was the first time that I understood

   7   from the German that I have the right to have a lawyer, but

   8   the right not to talk, I never understood that till after

   9   eight month when I been extradited here, but I understood the

  10   first one that I have the right to have a lawyer and the Judge

  11   asked me:  Do you want that we extradite you to United States

  12   or do you want to have a lawyer?  And I told him, oh, sure, I

  13   want to have a lawyer, and I don't want to go to United

  14   States.  I did nothing to go there.

  15   Q.  Did you tell the German court that you would not make any

  16   statements concerning the charges against you -- withdrawn.

  17            Did you tell the German court that you would make

  18   statements concerning the charges against you only with a

  19   lawyer?

  20   A.  (In English) Yes, I told him.  He said, if you want to

  21   talk about anything?  I said no, talk, but I want a lawyer.

  22   Q.  Now, after returning from court and having asked for a

  23   lawyer, what happened?

  24   A.  When I returned back like I informed that I need a lawyer,

  25   when I came back, and they were again ask, me do you wish to

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   continue talking with you?  Then I told you, I told him, why

   2   you didn't tell me about the accusation when I --

   3            THE COURT:  To whom were you speaking?

   4            THE WITNESS:  (In English) Sorry?

   5            THE COURT:  To whom were you speaking?

   6            THE WITNESS:  (In English) With the, with the, with

   7   Karas, as he told, at that time I don't know what's meaning of

   8   prosecutor, what's meaning of FBI.  Of course I know FBI is

   9   three English letter, but what it stands for, I don't know.

  10            What's the meaning of the word prosecutor, I don't

  11   know, because I never been in jail.  I never been in court.  I

  12   knew nothing about all these things.  So I then told Mr.

  13   Karas, I told him, why you didn't tell me about the charges

  14   that you are charging me in case that yesterday when I asked

  15   you, you told me, you don't know details what there is against

  16   me.

  17            But I told him, today I understood it from the German

  18   court what you are accusing me.  He said, then, well, if you

  19   want to continue to talk -- and I told him, and I asked for a

  20   lawyer from the Court.  He said, but, still you have a

  21   opportunity to talk without the assistance of a lawyer.

  22            So I told him, okay, then, if I didn't talk, what

  23   will happen?  He repeated again, nothing will happen.  We will

  24   go to America and we take you there.  You will talk there.  I

  25   told him, no, no.  I told him, I must talk.  So he said, no.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   You have option not to talk.  I told him, but actually I don't

   2   have option, because if I didn't talk he wants to take me to

   3   the United States, so actually you give me an option, but this

   4   is not an option for me.

   5   Q.  Now, Mr. Salim, at the time did you have asthma or do you

   6   have asthma?

   7   A.  (In English) Before talking about asthma --

   8            THE COURT:  No, we're talking about asthma now.  The

   9   question is do you have asthma?

  10            THE WITNESS:  (In English) Okay.  Please go back to

  11   the first question.  I talk now --

  12   Q.  You want to finish answering the previous question?

  13   A.  (In English) No.

  14   Q.  If you weren't finished, then complete your answer.

  15   A.  (In English) Regarding that I asked a lawyer in the court?

  16   Q.  Yes.

  17   A.  (In English) When we went to court I asked, it was strange

  18   that Folger said that he never hear from me that I asked for a

  19   lawyer, and the same time he said he was with me when I asked

  20   for lawyer in the court.

  21            And so he knew that I need a lawyer and he hear.

  22   When we came back, how the German continue to interrogate me

  23   while he already hear by his own ear that I ask for a lawyer?

  24   And in all the interrogation every small things was been

  25   written down, even if I pray, if I go to the window, and this

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   is the important things that he again told me, this should be

   2   written.

   3            THE COURT:  Were the Americans in the court in

   4   Germany?

   5            THE WITNESS:  (In English) No.

   6            THE COURT:  Next question.

   7   Q.  If you --

   8   A.  (In English) But I informed them when I came back that I

   9   were in the court and I asked for -- no need to represent it

  10   because I already said that.

  11            THE COURT:  Informed whom?

  12            THE WITNESS:  (In English) Inform the people who was

  13   interrogating me, there was two people, one Karas, and the

  14   second one I think his name is difficult, but yesterday he was

  15   here.

  16            THE COURT:  Folger?

  17            THE WITNESS:  (In English) No.

  18   Q.  The FBI agent you mean?

  19   A.  (In English) Yeah, FBI, I cannot recall his, difficult.

  20   Even that time I don't know his name.

  21   Q.  But the same man that was here from the FBI?

  22   A.  (In English) The same man yesterday was testifying here.

  23   I told him that I already asked, but then I been told that,

  24   what I already said.

  25   Q.  Have you completed the answer then, and now we can talk

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   about asthma?

   2   A.  (In English) For the asthma every people who have been --

   3            THE COURT:  Yes or no, do you have asthma?

   4            THE WITNESS:  (In English) Yes.

   5            THE COURT:  What was your medical condition during

   6   the period from September 15, 16, 17, 18.

   7            THE WITNESS:  (In English) I have asthma since almost

   8   '88.  And I think to be sure that I have asthma, you should

   9   ask the doctor of the prison.  You should get my medical

  10   report from MCC here.

  11            THE COURT:  You tell us.  You tell us what was your

  12   medical condition during the period September 16, 17, 18th?

  13            THE WITNESS:  (In English) I, I already answered that

  14   I had asthma since '88, and to now, so I think this date is

  15   including this period, and all the people that they been asked

  16   whether they saw me or I complain from asthma, I will never

  17   complain from asthma to an FBI agent.  I will complain for

  18   asthma for a doctor.

  19   Q.  Now, we heard a lot of testimony from various witnesses

  20   about suicide and you're being on a suicide watch.

  21            Can you tell us about that?

  22   A.  (In English) I think this is very important issue because

  23   we should, we should know the condition that I been kept

  24   starting with the interrogation, and then when they accuse me

  25   that I try suicide, the condition get worse.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1            But every day keeping me awake everyday, an hour,

   2   this is starting from the first night, and the people who

   3   should be asked for that is the prison warden, Mr. Stuouf, and

   4   the guard he was awake me.  These are people who should be

   5   asked for that.

   6            THE COURT:  Mr. Salim, we are asking you.  You tell

   7   us.  You tell us what your physical condition was during these

   8   days.

   9            THE WITNESS:  (In English) Yeah, I'm talking about

  10   the awaking every hour.

  11            THE COURT:  No, we're talking about the asthma.

  12            THE WITNESS:  (In English) We finished asthma.  Now

  13   I'm talking about the suicide.

  14            THE COURT:  We finished with asthma, all right.

  15   Q.  This suicide business, this is what I asked you about.

  16   A.  (In English) Yes.

  17   Q.  Yes.

  18   A.  (In English) Yeah.  That's time I want to, I want to raise

  19   the issue why should I think about suicide, because suicide

  20   the Folger accusing me of suicide is changed my condition for

  21   keeping thing worse in Germany.

  22            So what this condition was went worse.  We should

  23   know how it was and how it become.  So how it was awake of

  24   hour, and the people who should be asked for that, is the

  25   people who were awaken me, that I asked to bring them here as

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   a witnesses, that the government refused to bring these

   2   witnesses here.

   3            MR. GARCIA:  Objection.  Move to strike, Judge.

   4            THE COURT:  Yes, granted.

   5   Q.  Were you finished with the discussion of suicide?

   6   A.  (In English) No.

   7   Q.  Okay.

   8   A.  (In English) What happened for this false accusing me for

   9   suicide is that I was repeatedly asking the Germans, please

  10   let me call my family to talk with them.  They refused.

  11   Please let me talk with my embassy.  They refused.

  12            Then I told them, okay then.  Please you, yourself,

  13   because if you think that I have a code to send it to my

  14   embassy or to my family, you, yourself, just this is the

  15   number.  Call the embassy.  Call my family, just tell telling

  16   them that I'm doing well, even I was not doing well, but

  17   anyhow I should want to tell them that I'm doing well.  They

  18   refuse.

  19            Then I got shocked even just to tell them via the

  20   police themself.  Then I told Folger, I told him, what do you

  21   want from me?  Then I open my chest -- I actually I get upset,

  22   and I hit my head in the wall.  No one was dying when he hit

  23   his head with a wall.  But the false accusation for suicide

  24   was when I told Folger, I was anger, opened my clothes and ask

  25   him, I told him, okay, then, if you want, you have pistol,

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   just call my wife, tell them, and kill me if you want to kill

   2   me, but let my family know what's going on.

   3            Then he wrote a report telling the people that I was

   4   trying, I'm asking him to kill me and this was considered for

   5   suicide.  Actually, suicide in our religion is totally

   6   prohibited.  I will never do that, not me, but everything as a

   7   Muslim it is prohibited because on the basis that the soul,

   8   all the soul that you have it is not our soul, it is property

   9   of God.  When you get commit suicide you are using property,

  10   not the property, you are trying to disgracing against the

  11   property of God.

  12            So this is not true that I commit suicide.  This was

  13   the story asking him to kill me.  And I think we use this

  14   expression in our life many times for if you become angry you

  15   say, okay, sometimes even you will say, you kill me.  You just

  16   kidding.

  17            Anyhow, this telling me that they change my case to

  18   shift me to another, to another cell which is much worse

  19   because they were, they put me in a, they continue awake me

  20   and also they put me in a cell with no water, just a bed and a

  21   hole for call of nature.  And when I want water I will ask

  22   they will give me, and I was under 24 hour watching camera.

  23            At night it was, I was being watched by the ultra,

  24   the infrared, infrared.  And the worst prisoner was watching

  25   by five watt infrared, but me I was watching by 65 watt which

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   is 15 times strength of the infrared going on me every night.

   2   Even I complain to the doctor that you are sending rays for me

   3   every night to the time that I was there.

   4   Q.  Now, have you completed your answer on that subject?

   5   A.  (In English) Yes.

   6   Q.  When was the first time that you were able to contact your

   7   embassy and/or your family?

   8   A.  (In English) Oh, long away after the FBI went, after the

   9   German make mandate interrogation with me, I cannot remember.

  10            You can, it's not with me now, but what is exist in

  11   the paper I think it's true that, but it was, I mean long away

  12   after I got first talk with my embassy, and maybe after two,

  13   three days I cannot remember, but what is written I think what

  14   I read it said it's true, but this happened long away after

  15   the FBI went, then I be able to call my family and my embassy.

  16   Q.  Also, when was the first time that you met with a lawyer?

  17   A.  (In English) Of course after all this time that the German

  18   people even I asked the lawyer they didn't give me a lawyer.

  19   The United States they told me, I mean the FBI prosecutor they

  20   told me that since we are not in the United States we cannot

  21   offer you a lawyer.  So I couldn't get a lawyer from either

  22   side.  And I don't know, I don't know how to get a lawyer.

  23   Then hopefully I have friends --

  24            THE COURT:  Mr. Salim, the question was --

  25            THE WITNESS:  (In English) Yeah.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

                               Salim - direct

   1            THE COURT:  When.  That's a date.

   2            THE WITNESS:  (In English) Yeah.

   3            THE COURT:  When was the first time you met with a

   4   lawyer?  That's the question.

   5            THE WITNESS:  (In English) Also long time that people

   6   collect donation and send me a lawyer because the German

   7   didn't assign me a lawyer even after I asked for that, so I

   8   don't know, maybe after a week or ten days, I cannot remember.

   9   This was the first time that the lawyer was trying to see me,

  10   but when he asked to --

  11            THE COURT:  All right.  The question was when and the

  12   answer was a week or ten days.

  13            THE WITNESS:  (In English) I cannot remember, but I

  14   mean --

  15            THE COURT:  Next question.

  16            THE WITNESS:  (In English) I mean after the

  17   interrogation went.

  18   Q.  Now, during the detention in Germany, how -- you told us

  19   about the conditions of the jail conditions, but how were the

  20   conditions with respect to communication with your lawyer

  21   during investigation and detention in the prison?

  22   A.  (In English) The bad condition that I was kept in in

  23   Germany I protest for that, and I wrote to the Judge there

  24   asking him, please, I'm asking for my animal rights, not for

  25   human rights, because I visited zoo in my life and I read many

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   times, please don't disturb the sleeping animals, and I told

   2   him, please give me my animal rights, don't disturb me in the

   3   night I want to sleep.

   4            MR. GARCIA:  Objection, move to strike, your Honor.

   5            THE COURT:  Granted.

   6   A.  (In English) Then he refuse to.

   7            THE COURT:  Mr. Salim, okay?  Listen to the question.

   8   Answer the question.  Not why, not the argument.  Answer the

   9   question.  If the question calls for a date or time, tell us

  10   the date, tell us the time.  If it calls for something else,

  11   see if you can answer as directly as possible what the

  12   question is, all right?

  13   Q.  My last question, Mr. Salim --

  14   A.  (In English) I asked the prison authority, who inform you

  15   to put me in this bad condition?  They told me, this is the

  16   Judge.  Then I asked the Judge.  He said, no, it is not me.

  17   This is the prison.

  18            So I actually there is a third party was giving this

  19   order.  I don't know who, but at least it is not the judge

  20   because he said the prison.  And it's not the prison, because

  21   think said the Judge.

  22            This is the, this was the condition regarding the

  23   communication with my lawyer.  Of course I got the first

  24   meeting with the lawyer, I don't know, maybe a week or ten

  25   days, and when he tried to join the German authorities during

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   my interrogation, they refused, they told him, no; you cannot

   2   join this.  And I have a letter from him assure that they

   3   refused to him to be with me during interrogation.

   4            And for communication with him, the guards, the

   5   German guards, he brought me a name.  I don't know what this

   6   name.  The guard he told me, you write a copy out asking that

   7   please let every communication between me and lawyer go

   8   through some man I didn't know.  He gave me, he told me write

   9   this name.  I told him, what's the benefit of this?  He said

  10   very useful.  Your communication will go directly to your

  11   lawyer as fast as possible.

  12            I said, oh, great.  I need to have good communication

  13   with my lawyer.  After that I understood this was the

  14   prosecutor.  So everything I was writing to my lawyer was

  15   going to prosecutor, the German, and stay with him about ten

  16   days, after he very good read it and be happy with it.

  17            After that, he will send it to my lawyer.  Even many

  18   times my lawyer will complain, please send me the

  19   communication.  Even my strategy, my strategy for defending

  20   myself for extradition was everything uncovered to the

  21   prosecutor before my lawyer.

  22            MR. MC ALLISTER:  I don't have any additional

  23   questions, your Honor.

  24            THE WITNESS:  (In English) I have.  Are you finished

  25   yet?  I didn't finish yet.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1            THE COURT:  We'll take a five-minute recess.

   2            (Recess)

   3            (In open court; witness resumed)

   4            THE COURT:  All right.  You may be seated.

   5            MR. MC ALLISTER:  Your Honor, after having the

   6   opportunity to speak to Mr. Salim with your permission I'd

   7   like to just take a few more minutes.

   8            THE COURT:  Yes.

   9            MR. MC ALLISTER:  Thank you, your Honor.

  10   Q.  Mr. Salim, you hadn't finished your answer I understand

  11   concerning the ability to communicate with your lawyer while

  12   you were in prison during the German investigation or during

  13   the investigation and detention?

  14            THE COURT:  All that is post-statement.  The prison

  15   conditions, ability to communicate with the attorney, anything

  16   that happened after the Americans had left and after the

  17   interrogation ends is not pertinent to the suppression motion.

  18   Q.  Then one final thing.

  19            Mr. Salim, you testified before with respect to a

  20   Citibank card.  Was there a clarification you wanted to make

  21   concerning that?

  22   A.  (In English) The card I mentioned that I saw Karas taking

  23   from my billfolder, actually I saw either him or the FBI

  24   agent -- it's difficult now to assure that -- but it is sure

  25   that one of them took this card, and I have this, the proof

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   that the Citibank card is missing from the list of the

   2   inventory, even from the German inventory that transmission,

   3   but it is with me, and that how they brought, and I have that

   4   now.

   5            I have all the bank statements how they knew.  There

   6   is no even a single question about Citibank, but they knew

   7   from this card and they brought all this information.

   8            Regarding when during the court in Germany I never

   9   been in court in Germany.  I was just in my cell and receiving

  10   the answer of what happened, and they decided for extradition

  11   and they give me the order for the extradition, plus the

  12   appeal together when they told me that there is extradition.

  13   I asked them, I want to appeal.  Said, no, this is the

  14   extradition, and we will read you another issue for the

  15   appeal.

  16            MR. GARCIA:  Objection, your Honor, move to strike.

  17            THE COURT:  Granted.  There is no question pending

  18   now.  Anything further?

  19            MR. MC ALLISTER:  I don't have an additional

  20   question.

  21            THE WITNESS:  (In English) I have, I have lots.

  22   Q.  Questions?

  23   A.  (In English)Yeah.  I'm still talking about my lawyer.  He

  24   told me that you will be extradited because the United States

  25   is a powerful country.  They are --

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1            THE COURT:  Mr. Salim, now try to listen and try to

   2   understand.

   3            THE WITNESS:  (In English) Okay, forget about that.

   4            THE COURT:  No.  What is relevant here is the events

   5   between September 16th and the time you stopped making

   6   statements to the either the Germans or to the FBI.  Do you

   7   understand?  That's the time frame, right?

   8            Difficulties that you had with your lawyer thereafter

   9   have no relevance to this hearing.  Conditions in the prison

  10   after you stopped making statements are irrelevant to these

  11   proceedings.  You have a very narrow focus.

  12            Now understanding that, is there something else that

  13   you want to say?  Tell us first what the subject matter is.

  14            THE WITNESS:  (In English) Now we are here in this

  15   hearing and this hearing should be legal, and to be legal I

  16   want to talk about testifying.

  17            THE COURT:  But you can't, sir.  Regardless of your

  18   views as to what is proper for you to say or not proper for

  19   you to say, I have indicated what the scope is.

  20            Anything further?

  21   Q.  Is there anything with respect to what the Judge had told

  22   you about in terms of the scope of this hearing that you have

  23   not yet said that you wish to say?

  24            Now, that's specifically involved, according to the

  25   Judge's ruling, what occurred from the time of September 16th

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   of 1998 until your interrogation ended.

   2            Is there anything else that you need to say with

   3   respect to your state of mind or with respect to the

   4   interrogation?

   5   A.  (In English) I want to assure that I was deprived from

   6   getting my own lawyer.  Until now I'm fighting to get my own

   7   lawyer.  And I deprived.  The address is still kept with the

   8   prosecutor, the FBI still today.  I have the address with

   9   them.  I have for the inventory, I have two cards they didn't

  10   deliver to me, and this card containing the address of lawyer

  11   that I asked since 20th of December that I want to contact my

  12   lawyer.

  13            Prosecutor on the airplane he told me we will give

  14   you a lawyer.  I told him, no, I have a lawyer in United

  15   States and let me contact with him.  He said no, he will know

  16   where are you by media, and he will show up in the court.

  17            THE COURT:  That's a matter that you can take up with

  18   Magistrate Judge Eaton, if that's the same lawyer that you're

  19   talking about.

  20            If you have no other questions then,

  21   cross-examination.

  22            THE WITNESS:  (In English) The witnesses, the four

  23   witnesses that were brought here they were my witnesses, and

  24   we gave the government the name of these witnesses.

  25            When they came here they changed after two days

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1   sitting down with the government and they came here to be

   2   against me.  When I complain with my lawyer, then second day

   3   he told me, okay, then they will give me two --

   4            THE COURT:  Anything further that you want to tell

   5   the Court you put in writing, you give your attorney and he

   6   will furnish it to the Court.

   7            Mr. Garcia.

   8            MR. GARCIA:  Judge, I think we can end this.  The

   9   government is going to offer some exhibits for purposes of

  10   this hearing, if I can just have a moment with Mr. McAllister.

  11            (Pause)

  12            MR. GARCIA:  Your Honor, I understand there is no

  13   objection.  So at this point the government would offer

  14   Government Exhibit 10, Government Exhibit 15, Government

  15   Exhibit 3502-D and DT and Government Exhibit 3502-Q and QT for

  16   purposes of the hearing.

  17            THE COURT:  Received without objection.

  18            (Government's Exhibits Exhibit 10, 15, 3502-D and DT

  19   and 3502-Q and QT received in evidence)

  20            MR. GARCIA:  The government has nothing further,

  21   Judge.

  22            THE COURT:  Very well.  Mr. McAllister, anything

  23   further from the defendant?

  24            MR. MC ALLISTER:  No, thank you, your Honor.

  25            THE WITNESS:  (In English)  I have, I have.

                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct

   1            THE COURT:  I would like to fairly promptly to get

   2   posttrial memoranda, which can be very brief.  As I indicated

   3   the other day, I'd like to have a time line.  I'd like to have

   4   a very specific statement, Mr. McAllister, what it is that you

   5   wish to have suppressed.  What I would like to have is the

   6   time line relating to what it is you wish to be suppressed.

   7   Today is Friday, the 20th.

   8            THE WITNESS:  (In English) This hearing is illegal

   9   legal because I asked --

  10            THE COURT:  This hearing is over.  You may step down.

  11            (Defendant left the stand)

  12            THE DEFENDANT (In English):  It's illegal because

  13   they prevent from me my lawyer until now.

  14            THE COURT:  Take that up with --

  15            THE DEFENDANT (In English):  I ask to see my lawyer

  16   many change, my lawyer, many time.

  17            THE COURT:  November 3.

  18            MR. MC ALLISTER:  November 3, your Honor?

  19            THE COURT:  Yes.  That two weeks and a weekend.

  20   Please do not embarrass yourself or the Court by asking for an

  21   extension of that date.  I will notify Magistrate Eaton that

  22   except for the filing of posttrial briefs this hearing is

  23   concluded.  Thank you.

  24                                OoO


                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
                               Salim - direct


   2                        INDEX OF EXAMINATION

   3   Witness                    D      X      RD     RX


   5                        GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS

   6   Exhibit No.                                     Received

   7   Exhibits 10, 15, 3502-D, DT and 3502-Q and QT



















                      SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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