24 May 2004
Source: Digital file from Southern District Reporters Office; (212) 805-0300.
This is the transcript of Day 2 of the trial.
See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ssy-dt.htm
Lynne Stewart web site with case documents: http://www.lynnestewart.org/
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1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 ------------------------------x
2
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
3
4 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK)
4
5 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar,"
5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART,
6 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY,
6
7 Defendants.
7
8 ------------------------------x
8
9
9 New York, N.Y.
10 May 20, 2004
10 9:30 a.m.
11
11 Before:
12
12 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL
13
13 District Judge
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1 APPEARANCES
1
2 DAVID N. KELLEY
2 United States Attorney for the
3 Southern District of New York
3 ROBIN BAKER
4 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO
4 ANTHONY BARKOW
5 ANDREW DEMBER
5 Assistant United States Attorneys
6
6 KENNETH A. PAUL
7 BARRY M. FALLICK
7 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar
8
8 MICHAEL TIGAR
9 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE
9 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart
10
10 DAVID STERN
11 DAVID A. RUHNKE
11 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry
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1 (Trial resumed)
2 THE COURT: Good morning all. Please be seated.
3 Before we continue, we have a letter to the jury
4 administrator from Juror 247 who explains -- there are two
5 letters as you will see. There is a cover letter, which was
6 from Monday, May 10, and then a subsequent one on Wednesday,
7 May 19th, which raised an issue with respect to attending a
8 meeting and now an issue with respect to tickets, and a
9 nonrefundable deposit.
10 Mr. Grate has redacted the correspondence so that
11 there is nothing identifying in it. I will give it to the
12 parties. The two options are to give the juror some notice
13 about when the juror would likely be called for the individual
14 questioning, which at the current rate where the juror fits in
15 the list I would make it at the end of next week, if you can
16 look at your list, and the alternative is to say that in view
17 of the nonrefundable deposit that the juror would be excused.
18 This is a juror as to whom no one had any objections
19 except for the juror's claiming of a hardship based upon the
20 lack of a bonus, a commission bonus. So you may look at that
21 correspondence. I don't have to do something on it
22 immediately. Perhaps at the break you can review it and give
23 me your thoughts on that.
24 So I am ready to call in Juror 25.
25 (Juror present)
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Good morning. Please have a seat.
3 Good morning, Juror 25.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. Good to see you.
6 Juror 25, before I begin to ask you some questions
7 about the questionnaire, I had some preliminary questions that
8 I wanted to ask.
9 Since you were here last has anything changed
10 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
11 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
12 fair and impartial juror in this case?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Okay. What is that?
15 A. When I spoke --
16 Q. Could you keep your voice up. Maybe pull the microphone
17 closer to you. It's a big courtroom.
18 A. Well, when I spoke to my supervisor beforehand I thought I
19 was going to serve around 2-1/2 weeks or maybe a little longer.
20 So when I approached him with this matter and I asked in
21 reference to if I was going to receive pay and he said yes, I
22 will get paid, but we didn't go into more detail in reference
23 to that.
24 So then when I came back into work and let him know
25 that I might be gone a longer period of time, he told me that I
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1 will be paid only to cover what I get paid here as far as
2 court-wise. But from my understanding when I was here
3 beforehand I won't receive anything until everything is
4 completed, 4 to 6 months, and I really can't afford that. I am
5 not in a situation that I have money like that to cover until
6 the end of the trial.
7 Q. I am not sure I follow you.
8 A. In other words, if I serve I will get $40 a day.
9 Q. Right.
10 A. But I won't receive that until the end of the trial.
11 Q. No, you will get that after --
12 A. Time is served, right?
13 Q. No, that doesn't get delayed until the end. I believe you
14 get paid after sitting ten days. So after the first ten days
15 you sit you are paid for those ten days. And then after
16 another ten days you are paid for the previous ten days.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. You don't wait until the end of the 4 to 6 months of trial
19 to get paid.
20 A. Okay.
21 Now, the next thing, there might be a possibility that
22 I might move. Right now it's not, how can I say, I can't say I
23 am going to move right now because it's not a definite thing,
24 but there is a possibility between the time -- because I have
25 until June 20th to find a location to move. But if it doesn't
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1 happen, then it doesn't happen.
2 Q. Where would you be moving to?
3 A. I might be moving -- still in the Bronx but on --
4 Q. Don't tell me where. I wanted to make sure that you were
5 staying here.
6 A. I am staying here. I am not moving out of state or
7 anything like that.
8 Q. Staying in the Bronx.
9 A. Right.
10 Q. Okay. But that is okay.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. If you needed or if there were a necessity, for example, to
13 have a personal day to move --
14 A. No, I don't mean that. I wasn't sure if that was a concern
15 with the court.
16 Q. Oh, no, if you are living in the Bronx and may move to
17 another place in the Bronx, that is fine.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. That is not a problem at all.
20 A. No, okay.
21 Another thing, it's not a problem with me to serve but
22 in my position I am the only one that handles the phone calls
23 because I handle calls and I am also an assistant to everyone
24 else so it will be a stress to my job as far as me not being
25 there, but as far as for me to serve I don't have a problem.
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1 But work-wise there is a problem with that. So I don't know.
2 I already spoke to them with reference to trying to get someone
3 temporarily but I don't know if they would do that or if they
4 do do that, if that would jeopardize my position.
5 Q. Will you --
6 A. You see, the thing is I work for a restaurant and the owner
7 has several restaurants and not only do I have to deal with the
8 people in the office, I have to deal with the people in the
9 restaurant and plus the building is a dry cleaning business and
10 I also help them out. So, you know, it's more than one
11 business that I am helping out in different locations.
12 Q. All right.
13 Let me go back to the other question. You would be
14 paid your salary while you were here?
15 A. I thought it was my salary but he is just going to pay me
16 the difference.
17 Q. Oh, I see. So you will get credit for what you are being
18 paid as a juror and then he will make up the difference so that
19 you will be making the same.
20 A. Right.
21 Q. Okay.
22 You know, everyone who has a potential for serving has
23 other responsibilities and taking a person out from those
24 responsibilities has consequences for other people, but I think
25 your employer appears to be very forthcoming and accommodating
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1 that he will continue to pay your salary. And if it would make
2 a difference in terms of the business we usually don't sit on
3 Fridays and we don't sit on weekends, and you could give the
4 employer some help then.
5 A. Right.
6 Q. But I know that it places strains on other people.
7 A. Correct. Because they approached that matter that I might
8 be coming in 4 days and I will be able to do it. At least
9 Friday I will be able to come in but it's a little, you know --
10 there was a little -- they were not too happy about that.
11 Q. But you are not afraid that the employer would take any
12 actions against you or anything like that, are you?
13 A. To be honest, it's not the type of job like my job is
14 secure, you know. It's the type of job that they need someone
15 there. They need someone there to cover, to do the job, you
16 know, that I am basically doing. I can't say that my job is
17 not in jeopardy because it's the truth. My job is an
18 independent company. So it's not a city job or anything that I
19 am covered and I am in a union, you know?
20 Q. Well, he couldn't --
21 A. I am not saying he is going to use this as an excuse to get
22 rid of me, but let's say he finds someone temporarily and he
23 happens to like her better for whatever reason and decides to
24 keep that person, then I am in a situation that I am out of a
25 job to start all over again.
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1 Q. He couldn't retaliate against you because of your jury
2 service.
3 Now, tell me whether any of your -- and I appreciate
4 you bringing this to my attention. Is there anything about any
5 of your concerns about your job that would affect you in terms
6 of your ability serve and serve fairly and impartially?
7 A. Well, the only thing that is in my mind really is my job
8 secure. That is the only thing that I question because of the
9 time period. But other than that everything is fine.
10 Q. Sure.
11 Is there anything about those concerns about your job
12 that would interfere in any way with your thoughts about the
13 case, concentration, listening to the evidence, being fair to
14 the parties?
15 A. Well, I consider myself a hard worker and dedicated to my
16 job, especially with the things I am dealing with at work, I
17 know someone has to concentrate on that especially when I deal
18 with credit card fraud and that is something that someone
19 always has to be on top of and I know there is not going to be
20 right now at the moment there is no one keeping a concentrated
21 point on that. There is no one there doing it. If I am not
22 doing it there is no one else doing it. And that with the
23 credit cards I have to respond to them and if I can't find a
24 receipt I have to get in contact with the restaurant with a
25 person to get that information. And then there are other
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1 things that go with that. I always have to respond, whether
2 with payroll if people bring in their paperwork work, there is
3 always a constant thing with different things with my job. I
4 am always constantly working and trying to get in contact with
5 other people and other people depend on me. So, yes, that
6 would be on my mind constantly because I am thinking who is
7 doing it, because there is no one really to do it. Everyone
8 else has their own thing to do. So that is going to be on my
9 mind thinking who is doing it? I know my boss is going to be
10 like -- she is not here, she is not doing it. They have to
11 think about, okay, now we have to find someone. Then they have
12 to feel they have to find someone that qualifies to do it and
13 if they don't qualify, then we have to take the time to train
14 them. So that is taking more time from whatever else they are
15 supposed to be doing.
16 Q. Okay. Can I ask you to step out for a moment?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 (juror absent)
19 THE COURT: I am prepared to continue the questioning
20 but I am also prepared to excuse the juror at this point.
21 MR. RUHNKE: I think she should be excused. I think
22 she is telling us in 4, 5 different ways she is terrified of
23 losing her job if she serves as a juror.
24 MR. MORVILLO: The government has no objection.
25 MR. TIGAR: I don't want to break ranks but we have a
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1 different position. She is a qualified juror. She is
2 articulate. She is intelligent. She cares about the work she
3 does. Is there any way that your Honor can call the employer
4 and find out what this situation is?
5 THE COURT: No, I don't. I don't call employers and I
6 don't find out who the employers are. And I said that earlier
7 when the issue of parties agreeing upon the challenges for
8 cause came up.
9 MR. TIGAR: I know your Honor has said that. In the
10 meantime I have been in front of another district judge on a
11 related issue and there was a different way of handling it. I
12 understand your Honor's way. I wanted to state our position
13 and our concern.
14 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I understand your concerns.
15 Do you believe this is not a challenge for cause?
16 MR. TIGAR: If it is your Honor's position that you
17 would not contact her employer, then it is a challenge for
18 cause. Yes.
19 THE COURT: Okay. I agree with all of that. It is a
20 well-founded challenge for cause and I will grant it.
21 It's plain to me that the juror is concerned over her
22 job and her job security and there is no viable way of
23 protecting that over this period of time to eliminate those
24 kinds of concerns that the juror has and I have listened to the
25 juror. I have assessed her credibility. I believe it would
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1 interfere with her jury service.
2 MR. TIGAR: May I inquire of the court if in the
3 course of this long trial a juror reports to Mr. Grate that
4 there seems to be a problem of potential retaliation, would the
5 court's view be that that is conduct in or so near the
6 proceedings as to affect the administration of justice whereby
7 the court could directly take action?
8 THE COURT: Sufficient unto the day, if something came
9 to my attention during the trial I would address it and I would
10 address it under all of the circumstances that came up at that
11 time.
12 MR. TIGAR: Then I would respectfully suggest -- not
13 here, I understand the court has ruled, that it may be a
14 reassurance that you could give to jurors about the court
15 having this Article III power and see that they are protected.
16 THE COURT: If with respect to an individual juror I
17 thought that that would be useful, of course I will tell the
18 juror. And I will reiterate how employers can't take any
19 action against employees.
20 There are individual difficulties that this juror has
21 expressed with the nature of her job, with the way in which
22 there would have to be someone else while she is at work, her
23 concerns about the work that she does and what would be
24 happening when she was not there that plainly would interfere
25 with her ability to be a fair and impartial juror. And if it's
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1 necessary for me to give my assurances to jurors about what the
2 law provides and the protection that jurors have, I will
3 certainly give that to jurors. I have given it at the
4 beginning. I will continue to give it.
5 Call in the juror.
6 (Juror present)
7 BY THE COURT:
8 Q. Juror number 25, I am going to excuse you from the process.
9 I very much appreciate your participating in the process,
10 having answered all of the questions and having discussed these
11 matters with you. So, again, I appreciate your service. You
12 have performed a public service by participating in the
13 process. And you will now be able to go home and that
14 completes your participation. Again, thank you for
15 participating in the process.
16 A. I just want to make a note that if I ever get called I
17 don't mind serving but a long period of that time I cannot do,
18 but if it's a time that is compatible for my time frame that I
19 can perform jury duty I have no problem with that.
20 Q. Okay.
21 I appreciate that and I understand the kind of burden
22 of a long trial on you, and I will make sure that the jury
23 administrator knows of your willingness to serve in another
24 case.
25 A. Thank you, sir.
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1 Q. All right.
2 (Juror absent)
3 THE COURT: Juror Number 28.
4 (Juror present)
5 BY THE COURT:
6 Q. Please have a seat.
7 Good morning, juror 28.
8 I have some questions for you to follow up on your
9 questionnaire and I also have some preliminary questions for
10 you.
11 Since you were here last has anything changed
12 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
13 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
14 fair and impartial juror in this case?
15 A. I had lost my baby-sitter --
16 Q. I am sorry?
17 A. I don't have a baby-sitter for my son. He is 7. So I have
18 to pick him up around 6 or if he has a half day I have to pick
19 him up.
20 Q. Okay.
21 We sit during trial from 9:30 until 4:30, and so you
22 would be able to pick your child up at 6 o'clock.
23 A. Right, but there are days when they have half a day and
24 that may be a problem for me.
25 Q. Okay.
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1 A. Or they don't have after school. If they don't have after
2 school at 2:15 I have to pick him up.
3 Q. Okay.
4 Would serving on the jury interfere with your -- well,
5 what about over the summer? Where would your child be?
6 A. I still haven't arranged for that. I need to find a
7 baby-sitter for him for an after-school program.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. I am expecting that his baby-sitter will come back by the
10 end of June. She left to the Dominican Republic suddenly.
11 Q. You work now, right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How do you arrange for child care with your work?
14 A. I drop him in the morning at --
15 Q. Can you keep your voice up and talk in the microphone.
16 A. I drop my son in the morning at 7:30 and I go to work. And
17 then I pick him up. He is in the after-school program so
18 between 5 and 6 I pick him up. He could stay in the
19 after-school program until 6 o'clock. And when it's half a day
20 I run to his school. I work and live in the Bronx. I run to
21 the school, pick him up, and bring him back to the school.
22 Q. Okay.
23 How often does your child have half days?
24 A. At least once a month and now in June it's going to be many
25 days where he is going to be half a day. He is in a Catholic
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1 school.
2 Q. How about in July and August?
3 A. I still need to arrange.
4 Q. I am sorry?
5 A. I still need to arrange for baby-sitting. I will have to
6 find a baby-sitter for him.
7 Q. Would you be working during July and August?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. We only sit Monday through Thursday usually and from 9:30
10 until 4:30. That is when you would be here. Would that
11 schedule, in view of what you have set up or trying to set up
12 with the baby-sitter, interfere with your child care for your
13 child?
14 A. I could try to arrange but it may be days but I would have
15 to run to pick him up if I don't find a person to take care of
16 him.
17 Q. Okay.
18 Could you step out just for a moment please.
19 (Juror absent)
20 THE COURT: All right, I am prepared to excuse the
21 juror.
22 MR. TIGAR: The defense agrees with that, your Honor,
23 not simply for what she said here but her answers to 112
24 through 115 would make it problematic in any case.
25 MR. MORVILLO: The government has no objection, your
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1 Honor.
2 THE COURT: All right.
3 (Juror present)
4 BY THE COURT:
5 Q. Juror Number 28, I am going to excuse you from further
6 participation in the process. I appreciate your having
7 participated in the process and by doing so you have performed
8 a public service. So, again, we appreciate your having
9 participated.
10 A. Thank you. I just need a note to take it back to my
11 school.
12 Q. I am sorry?
13 A. I need a note for these 2 days that I was here.
14 Q. The jury administrator will take care of that by mail for
15 you.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. You don't have to go back to the jury office and you will
18 also receive jury payment for having participated in the
19 process for these days.
20 A. Okay. Thank you.
21 (Juror absent)
22 THE COURT: Juror number 29 is next.
23 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, yesterday Juror Number 7
24 was not present. I was wondering whether you planned on
25 calling him back on a particular day.
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1 THE COURT: Yes. The jury administrator hasn't told
2 me. I believe the jury administrator was trying to follow up
3 on anyone who was not here yesterday. So, yes, Juror Number 7
4 will be called back.
5 (Juror present)
6 BY THE COURT:
7 Q. Good morning, Juror Number 29.
8 A. Good morning.
9 Q. Let me ask you some preliminary questions before I turn to
10 the questions on the questionnaire.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Since you were here last, has anything changed concerning
13 your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has anything
14 occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a fair and
15 impartial juror in this case?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Please speak into the microphone.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And tell me what has happened.
20 A. When they beheaded that fellow in the Middle East, the
21 terrorists, that really turned me down.
22 Q. All right.
23 You know, this case has nothing to do with that. It
24 has nothing, nothing to do with that. But let me ask you: As
25 a result -- if you were chosen as a juror in this case you
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1 would have to listen to the evidence in this case.
2 A. True.
3 Q. And the evidence in this case, I tell you, will have
4 nothing to do with that.
5 A. All right.
6 Q. You would have to decide the case based solely on the
7 evidence or lack of evidence in this case. Do you understand
8 that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, you were concerned about matters in the news.
11 Would those matters in the news prevent you from
12 listening to the evidence in this case?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Would it interfere with your ability to be fair and
15 impartial in this case?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Tell me why you were concerned with your service in this
18 case as a result of what you have heard about the incident in
19 Iraq?
20 A. Well, I was under the impression this case had everything
21 to do with terrorism. The leader of this group, this blind
22 sheikh, was a terrorist and he is now in jail, and these were
23 his men. And an attorney that was defending him, this is what
24 we were told when we first went upstairs to the ninth floor.
25 Q. I am sorry?
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1 A. This is what we were told when we first went out to the
2 other building.
3 Q. Oh, that was me.
4 A. Right.
5 Q. I explained to you what the allegations in this case are.
6 A. Exactly.
7 Q. And I explained to you about the sheikh and I explained to
8 you about what the allegations in this case were. There was
9 nothing that I said that connected this case to Iraq, and as a
10 result of the allegations in the case, as I explained them to
11 you, do you go into the case with any sort of a belief that
12 this case is related to what is going on in Iraq?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you believe that if you were selected as a juror in this
15 case you could be fair and impartial?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You have told us in response to the questions that your son
18 served in Iraq.
19 A. No, he didn't serve in Iraq. He was in Iraq just recently
20 with a corporation.
21 Q. I see.
22 A. And he just came back. Now he is consulting with the
23 government for another corporation in Washington.
24 Q. Is there anything about that experience that would prevent
25 you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. It appears that the date that the final jury will be chosen
3 in this case will be Monday, June 21st, so after today it's
4 unlikely that you will be called to come back before June 18th.
5 Does that present any serious hardship for you?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
8 this case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
9 the case?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. And this includes any conversations in the courthouse or
14 with any other prospective jurors?
15 A. No.
16 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
17 did you talk to anyone or did you overhear any conversations
18 about this case?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You told us on the questionnaire that you would have a
21 serious hardship if you were chosen as a juror in this case.
22 Can you explain to me why it would be a serious hardship?
23 A. Well, my wife is a sick woman and, you see, I only work a
24 couple of blocks from my house, all right, so I am in and out.
25 She has a variety of things wrong with her. And I also am
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1 running back and forth to my mother, who is 89 years old, on
2 the the other side of the Bronx. She is very elderly. So my
3 two brothers and I are constantly back and forth taking care of
4 her too.
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1 (Juror 29)
2 BY THE COURT:
3 Q. Could you tell me what your wife is ill with?
4 A. She has this Epstein-Barr syndrome, diabetes, chronic
5 osteoporosis, cholesterol.
6 Q. Do you care for her during the course of the day?
7 A. I do the shopping, the cooking; I come home for lunch. I
8 make her stuff for lunch.
9 Q. Tell me, you say you run back and forth with your mother?
10 A. Yeah, that's after work. I usually -- I come home at 4:00
11 o'clock. I stay till around 5:00, get my wife squared away and
12 then I run twice or three times a week over to my mother's for
13 a few hours. And then my other brother takes a turn and my
14 other brother takes a turn.
15 Q. When do you go, at what time?
16 A. I usually go to my mother's after 4:00 o'clock.
17 Q. Okay. Would serving on the jury -- you would be here from
18 perhaps 9:00 o'clock until 4:30. Would that interfere with
19 your help for your wife or mother?
20 A. Well, I'd have to have my sister-in-law, you know, help
21 with my wife a little bit. She lives in the next building but
22 she takes care of her grandchildren, too -- but she, you know,
23 pitch in. And my two other brothers would just have to take
24 care of my mother. And I'd do something on the weekend.
25 Q. Well, tell me -- you had indicated on the form that this
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1 case would be a serious hardship for you. And so tell me
2 whether you still think it would be a serious hardship for you.
3 A. Well, I'd have to find out from my firm about the -- a
4 trial, four to six months. How would they go about -- would I
5 get paid or would I just have to rely on the money from the
6 jury? I don't know about a case this long, how my company
7 would react to it, or would they tell me to take all of my
8 vacation in part or -- you know, things like that, I wouldn't
9 know until I face that problem.
10 Q. And you haven't checked with your employer whether they'll
11 pay for --
12 A. For that length of time, no.
13 Q. Do they have any policy of paying you for a shorter period
14 of time?
15 A. If I'm here like one or two days, I would get my pay and
16 then when I get the check for two days' jury duty, just turn it
17 over to them, you know. But four to six months, I don't know
18 what their policy would be. I'd have to go into it.
19 Q. You don't know of any policy that they have?
20 A. Not for that length of time. I mean, I've been -- you
21 know, jury duties a couple of times, for like one or two days,
22 one time for three days, and I just, like I said before, I
23 turned in the check for the jury and I got my full pay.
24 Q. All right. Tell me whether, in terms of the care that you
25 give to your wife and your mother, whether serving on the jury
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1 with these hours and these days, whether that would be a
2 serious hardship for you?
3 A. Well, I'd have to see if my sister-in-law could pitch in
4 and then I'd have to tell my two brothers they'd have to pitch
5 in where I, you know, I'm out. That's what -- we'd have to
6 make some arrangements like that within the family.
7 Q. Okay. Would that interfere with your ability to be fair
8 and impartial in the case, concentrate on this case, in terms
9 of any other arrangements you'd have to make?
10 A. No, no, no.
11 Q. Okay. If your employer paid only partial pay, would that
12 be a serious hardship for you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All right. Could you step out one moment?
15 (Juror absent)
16 THE COURT: Do the parties have any positions?
17 MR. RUHNKE: We think the juror should be excused,
18 your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Government?
20 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the government disagrees.
21 The government believes that this juror has stated that he
22 could be very impartial. There is a question as to whether
23 there would be a hardship for him economically, and perhaps the
24 Court could ask him to inquire of his employer what economic
25 arrangements would be made while and if he were to serve on the
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1 jury in this case.
2 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Ruhnke?
3 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, had your concluded your
4 interview of this juror?
5 THE COURT: No.
6 MR. RUHNKE: I didn't think so.
7 THE COURT: And my inclination is to -- he's claiming
8 serious hardship if he is not paid by his employer. I believe
9 he should inquire of his employer, and rather than completing
10 the examination of the witness report back to Mr. Grate whether
11 he would be paid. If he's not going to be paid, there's no
12 reason for me to pursue the inquiry further.
13 MR. RUHNKE: We agree.
14 THE COURT: Call back Juror 29.
15 (Juror present)
16 BY THE COURT:
17 Q. Juror 29, you had told me that this case would be a
18 hardship for you if you're not paid by your employer. Jury
19 service is very important, and many employers continue their --
20 the salaries for their employees even during long jury service.
21 And of course, the employers can't take any adverse action
22 against an employee because of their jury service, but they're
23 not required to continue the payment. But as I say, many
24 employers do because jury service is an important
25 responsibility of the citizenship.
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And what I would ask you to do is to talk to your
3 employer --
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. -- and ask.
6 Now, I've told you not to talk about this case at all
7 or not to look at or listen to anything to do with the case.
8 A. Right.
9 Q. But you can tell your employer that you are in the process
10 of jury selection for a long trial which is estimated to last
11 between four and six months. And ask what the policy is with
12 respect to paying you. All right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And then I'd ask that you simply contact the jury
15 administrator, and you should have the telephone number for the
16 jury administrator. You can either call or write to the jury
17 administrator because, as I've told you, you know, the
18 communication should be with the jury administrator rather than
19 with the Court. And the jury administrator knows your name and
20 that sort of information. I don't. So you should write to the
21 jury administrator, Mr. Grate, and --
22 A. Could I get the --
23 Q. Mr. Fletcher will give you a little slip of paper
24 indicating the jury administrator's name and number. Okay? So
25 you should get that from him.
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1 He's giving you a slip which relates to calling back
2 on June the 18th. But I'm asking you to find out this
3 information and get back as soon as you can.
4 A. Yes, I will.
5 Q. Okay. And after that, I may call you back in for further
6 questions. All right?
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. But I need to know the answer to that. Remember, when you
9 talk to your employer, just tell him or her that you've been --
10 you're in the process of jury selection for a long trial, and
11 what's the policy with respect to paying you. Okay?
12 A. All right. So, jury administrator, Jerome Grate.
13 Q. Right.
14 JUROR: That telephone number, 212-805-0179 is his
15 number?
16 DEPUTY CLERK: Either that or --
17 JUROR: The right-hand side of this -- his name is
18 here, and then it's the telephone number on the bottom.
19 DEPUTY CLERK: That's fine.
20 JUROR: That's the number to get in contact with him?
21 DEPUTY CLERK: That's fine, your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Yes. Yes.
23 JUROR: All right. Then I'll go today.
24 THE COURT: That's fine.
25 JUROR: And I'll get in contact with him as soon as I
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1 find out what the policy is.
2 THE COURT: Great. And then get back to Mr. Grate.
3 Please remember to follow my continuing instructions,
4 all right?
5 JUROR: Yes.
6 THE COURT: Don't talk about this case or anything or
7 anyone who has anything to do with it. Remember that you
8 shouldn't look at or listen to or read anything to do with the
9 case. If you should see something about the case, just turn
10 away. And remember, it's very important that you keep an open
11 mind, that you -- if you are chosen as a juror in this case, I
12 tell all of the jurors, keep an open mind until you've heard
13 all of the evidence, I've instructed you on the law and you've
14 gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. Fairness
15 and justice requires that you do that. All right?
16 JUROR: Okay.
17 THE COURT: Okay. So call Mr. Grate and we'll see
18 where we go from there.
19 JUROR: Okay. All right. Fine. But I have to call
20 this on June 18th?
21 THE COURT: No, no. You don't have to do anything
22 about June 18th, at the moment. Call Mr. Grate and then we'll
23 make the determination whether you have to come back sooner
24 than June the 18th, all right? You don't have to worry about
25 the June the 18th time --
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1 JUROR: Okay.
2 THE COURT: All you have to do is check with your
3 employer and get back as soon as you can to Mr. Grate.
4 JUROR: All right. Okay. What about -- I need a note
5 for the two days that I was here.
6 THE COURT: That will be taken care of by mail.
7 JUROR: They won't let me go back to work.
8 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Fletcher will call Mr. Grate
9 and make sure that they get you a note so that you can return
10 to work. And Mr. Fletcher will also confirm that telephone
11 number to call Mr. Grate.
12 JUROR: Okay.
13 THE COURT: All right? Everything else clear?
14 JUROR: Perfect.
15 THE COURT: Okay. Please remember to follow my
16 continuing instructions, and Mr. Fletcher will call Mr. Grate
17 and we'll ask you to wait in a separate room off the hallway
18 while Mr. Fletcher arranges this with Mr. Grate. Okay?
19 JUROR: Fine.
20 THE COURT: Great.
21 JUROR: Okay, thank you.
22 (Juror absent)
23 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, can we make one request?
24 When a juror such as this last juror gives you an answer that
25 something has changed, but seems to indicate some prejudicial
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1 point of view, we ask your Honor to ask him simply to explain
2 what he means rather than telling him this case is not about
3 any of that so we get an opportunity to understand what the
4 juror is sensing.
5 THE COURT: I did.
6 MR. RUHNKE: More open-ended. Instead of saying, This
7 case is not about...
8 THE COURT: I did. I asked him why he raised that
9 with me. Remember?
10 MR. RUHNKE: All right.
11 (Juror present)
12 BY THE COURT:
13 Q. Good morning, Juror 31. Before I go over some of the
14 responses on the questionnaire, I'd like to ask you some
15 preliminary questions.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Since you were here last, has anything changed concerning
18 your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has anything
19 occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a fair and
20 impartial juror in this case?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay. Could you keep your voice up and speak into the
23 microphone? Thank you. It's a big courtroom and it's
24 sometimes hard to hear.
25 It now appears that the date that the final jury will
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1 be chosen in this case will be Monday, June the 21st. So after
2 today, it's unlikely you will be called to come back before
3 June the 18th. Does that present any serious hardship for you?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. And could you pull the microphone down?
6 Mr. Fletcher will help you.
7 Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone
8 about this case, or have you looked at or listened to anything
9 about the case?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. And that includes any conversations here in the courthouse
14 or with any other prospective jurors?
15 A. No.
16 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
17 did you talk to any of them or did anyone talk to you or did
18 you overhear any conversations about this case?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. You told us about your children, and it's not clear
21 to me what the occupation for your 32 year old son is.
22 A. He doesn't work. He's --
23 Q. Could you keep your -- try and speak loudly?
24 A. He's in a correctional facility.
25 Q. Ah, okay. And how long has he been there?
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1 A. Four years.
2 Q. And can you tell me what the crime is for which he's there?
3 A. He shot someone in the leg.
4 Q. Okay. Have you visited him while he's been there?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And is there anything about that that would prevent you
7 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
8 A. No.
9 Q. In response to Number 12, it wasn't clear to me whether --
10 let me retract that. I understand.
11 You told us that someone who is close to you served in
12 the Army for four years. Can you tell me who that was?
13 A. My niece, but I don't know where she is.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. She's been -- maybe it was more than four years.
16 Q. Could you try and speak louder?
17 A. Could be more than four years. She went in right after
18 high school; and then my children's father, he served in the
19 Vietnam War.
20 Q. So you have a niece who is -- is she currently in the Army?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And do you know where your niece is serving?
23 A. Not right now. I know she's overseas, something to do with
24 the war.
25 Q. Okay. Do you have much contact with your niece?
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1 A. No, because she lives in Virginia.
2 Q. Okay. Is there -- and you say that your child's father
3 served in Vietnam. Right?
4 A. Yes. And my daughter, she was in the Army.
5 Q. Keep your voice up. I'm sorry.
6 A. My daughter, she was in the Army also. But she got hurt.
7 Q. Your daughter was in what?
8 A. In the United States Army.
9 Q. In the Army. Okay.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you say that she got hurt?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Where did she get hurt?
14 A. She was in South Carolina. She hurt her leg during
15 training, so they let her out, but she didn't go back, she went
16 back to college.
17 Q. Okay. And is there anything about any of those connections
18 with any of those people and their military service that would
19 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
20 A. No.
21 Q. In response to one question, you told us that you had had
22 prior jury service?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And that you had served two times on juries?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And were both of those experiences in the state court?
2 They were up in the Bronx, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You went to one of the Bronx courthouses?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you said that one was a civil case and one was a
7 criminal case?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In the civil case, what kind of civil case was it? Do you
10 recall what it was about?
11 A. It was about children, baby-sitter molested a child.
12 Q. Keep your voice up.
13 A. It was this lady, she was baby-sitting for some children
14 and her grandson supposedly -- have messed with the kids.
15 Q. I'm sorry, her grandson --
16 A. Was supposed to have fondled the kids.
17 Q. Oh. Was that the civil case?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And did the jury deliberate in that case?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And did the jury reach a verdict -- don't tell us what it
22 was -- but did the jury reach a verdict?
23 A. I don't know. They sent me home. They sent me home. I
24 was an extra.
25 Q. You were an alternate?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And in the -- and when was that that you -- the civil case?
3 Do you recall?
4 A. It was like '85, '86.
5 Q. Okay. And the criminal case, that was also in the state
6 court in the Bronx. Can you tell me about when that was?
7 A. It was like maybe a couple of years ago.
8 Q. Excuse me?
9 A. A couple of years ago. It wasn't that long ago.
10 Q. And how long did that last?
11 A. About a week -- oh, eight days.
12 Q. Eight days.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. And what kind -- what was the crime that was charged
15 in that case?
16 A. Some kid was killed back in the 90's.
17 Q. All right. And did you serve as a juror in that case?
18 A. I was an alternate.
19 Q. You were an alternate. And so you didn't participate in
20 deliberation in that case?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Is there anything about your jury service that would
23 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Okay. You had left the space blank as to whether you
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1 belonged to any organizations.
2 A. Just my union.
3 Q. I can't hear you.
4 A. Just my union at work.
5 Q. Okay. What union do you belong to?
6 A. CWA 1101.
7 Q. PWA?
8 A. "C".
9 Q. I can't --
10 A. "C" as in cat, CWA.
11 Q. Oh, CWA.
12 A. 1101.
13 Q. Okay, thank you. Does your husband belong to any
14 organizations?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You told us that you read a newspaper daily. What
17 newspapers do you read?
18 A. The Daily News.
19 Q. All right. You told us that your daughter works at a
20 courthouse as a paralegal. Can you tell me, to the extent that
21 you can, is it a state courthouse or a federal courthouse? Do
22 you know?
23 A. I'm not sure. I know it's for the attorney general. She
24 works in his office.
25 Q. Okay. Is that the New York State Attorney General?
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1 A. I guess. It's not too far from here.
2 Q. But not this courthouse or the courthouse across the
3 street?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you know the name of the attorney general?
6 A. No. She told me once, but I be so busy with my work, and
7 then I baby-sits for her after I get off from work and be so
8 tired sometime when I get home. And she's still in college, so
9 there's not much talking. When she comes in, I just go home.
10 Q. Okay. Do you know whether she -- she's a paralegal; is
11 that right?
12 A. A clerk or paralegal --
13 Q. A clerk or paralegal?
14 A. She's just working part-time.
15 Q. She's not a lawyer?
16 A. No. She's taking law classes.
17 Q. I see. And does she work, do you know, on criminal or
18 civil cases?
19 A. Oh, I don't know.
20 Q. You don't know. Okay. Is there anything about your
21 daughter's employment that would prevent you from being a fair
22 and impartial juror in this case?
23 A. No.
24 Q. All right. By the way, you're not seeking to be excused
25 from jury service on the basis of any of your prior jury
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1 service, are you?
2 A. No. I just don't think I can get out of work for that
3 length of time.
4 Q. But you've told us that you would be paid your salary
5 during that period of time and you work for a large employer --
6 don't tell us who it is --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- but you work for a large employer. And they have lots
9 of employees, and you believe that you will be paid your salary
10 during that period of time.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And the employer can't take any retaliatory action against
13 you.
14 A. I know.
15 Q. So the employer has lots of resources and employees that
16 the employer can free up to do the -- to do what you've been
17 doing. To the extent that you're needed, you will be able to
18 work on Fridays because we don't sit on Fridays.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And of course on weekends, if there were anything in
21 addition that you could do to help the employer. Do you
22 understand?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, if you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would
25 be required to decide this case based solely on the evidence or
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1 lack of evidence and in accordance with my instructions on the
2 law. Do you understand that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And would you do that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. As you can tell from all of my questions, the fundamental
7 issue is whether there is anything in your personal history or
8 life experience that would prevent you from acting as a fair
9 and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one final
10 time whether there is anything, whether I've asked you about it
11 specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a fair
12 and impartial juror in this case?
13 A. No.
14 Q. All right. Thank you, Juror 31. Could you step out,
15 please?
16 (Juror absent)
17 THE COURT: All right. No further questions? No
18 challenges for cause?
19 All right. Call Juror number 31 back, please.
20 (Juror present)
21 BY THE COURT:
22 Q. Hi, Juror 31. You are still in the jury selection process.
23 As I mentioned at the outset, you'll be given a slip of paper
24 explaining to you to call back on June the 18th and be given
25 further instructions at that time. I expect the process to
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1 continue on June the 21st, but the note will indicate to call
2 back on June the 18th. And it's very important that you
3 continue to follow my instructions. Please, please don't talk
4 about this case.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Or anything to do with it. Please don't look at or listen
7 to anything to do with the case. If you should see something
8 in the newspapers or so, just turn away. Always remember, as
9 I'll tell the jurors who are selected in this case, keep an
10 open mind until you've heard all of the evidence, I've
11 instructed you on the law and you've gone to the jury room to
12 begin your deliberations. Fairness and justice requires that
13 you do that.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. All right?
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. It's good to see you.
18 (Juror absent)
19 THE COURT: All right?
20 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor?
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 MR. TIGAR: I was asleep at the switch here.
23 THE COURT: What is it?
24 MR. TIGAR: Can you call her back and ask her anything
25 about her son's lawyer, criminal defense lawyer, that gives
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1 her --
2 THE COURT: I asked her if there was anything -- hold
3 the juror for a moment -- I asked the juror if there was
4 anything to do with that case that would prevent her from being
5 a fair and impartial juror.
6 MR. TIGAR: I understand that, your Honor. As I say,
7 I was asleep at the switch the last time about this additional
8 question. If the Court believes it's been covered --
9 THE COURT: I really do. Because I went through -- I
10 went through the fact that what her son was convicted of, how
11 long he's been there, the fact that she's visited there,
12 whether any experience with that process would prevent her from
13 being a fair and impartial juror in this case. So I believe
14 I've adequately covered it.
15 MR. TIGAR: Thank you.
16 THE COURT: All right.
17 (Off the record)
18 THE COURT: It's all right. Juror Number 31 can be
19 let go. Bring in Juror Number 35.
20 DEPUTY CLERK: Okay.
21 U.S. MARSHAL: They're not present.
22 THE COURT: All right. Juror 38. Then have Mr. Grate
23 call up Juror 35.
24 (Juror present)
25 BY THE COURT:
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1 Q. Hi.
2 A. Hi.
3 Q. Good morning, Juror 38.
4 A. Hi.
5 Q. Before I follow up on your -- some of the answers on the
6 questionnaire, I'd like to ask you some preliminary questions.
7 Since you were here last, has anything changed concerning your
8 ability to serve as a juror in this case?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Or has anything occurred to you that may affect your
11 ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
14 chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So after today,
15 it's unlikely that you will be called to come back before June
16 the 18th. Does that present any serious hardship for you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about
19 this case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
20 the case?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And that includes any conversations here at the courthouse
25 or with any other prospective jurors?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
3 did you discuss the case or overhear anyone discussing the
4 case?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay. Can you tell us what grade you teach and what
7 subject you teach?
8 A. I teach English to 7th graders.
9 Q. Keep your voice up, please?
10 A. 7th graders, English.
11 Q. 7th-grade English. Okay. And you told us that you have an
12 uncle who is an officer in the air force. Is he currently an
13 officer?
14 A. Retired.
15 Q. Retired. Is there anything about that that would prevent
16 you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You mentioned that you were sued in connection with a
19 traffic accident. Is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And did that case -- when was that?
22 A. About seven years ago.
23 Q. And did that case go to trial or was it settled?
24 A. It did go to trial, but it was settled pretty quickly.
25 Q. All right. And is there anything about your experience
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1 with that lawsuit or with the Court system or with the lawyers
2 that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in
3 this case?
4 A. No.
5 (Continued on next page)
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1 Q. You mentioned that one of your travels was to Israel. Can
2 you tell me when that was?
3 A. I think it was '95.
4 Q. And what was the purpose of that trip?
5 A. Just to travel to Israel.
6 Q. Travel?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Tourism?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is there anything about that that would prevent you from
11 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
12 A. I don't think so, no.
13 Q. You understand that if you were chosen as a juror in this
14 case you would have to decide this case based solely on the
15 evidence or lack of evidence presented in court, do you
16 understand that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And will you do that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You indicated that you are not close to or have worked with
21 or socialized with people of Middle Eastern descent.
22 Do you have any biases or prejudices against any
23 people of Middle Eastern descent or any people of the Islamic
24 faith?
25 A. No, but I do have friends in Israel.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 Is there anything about the fact that you have friends
3 in Israel that would prevent you from being a fair and
4 impartial juror in this case?
5 A. No.
6 Q. One of the other questions that I asked on the form is I
7 brought to your attention that it's possible that there may be
8 evidence in this case about statements against Israel and
9 people who are Jewish. Would that prevent you from being a
10 fair and impartial juror in this case?
11 A. No.
12 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, would you
13 listen to the evidence or lack of evidence in the case and base
14 your decision solely on the evidence or lack of evidence in the
15 case and my instructions on the law?
16 A. I would do my best.
17 Q. Well, have you ever served as a juror before?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay.
20 When you say that you would do your best, people
21 express themselves in different ways and some people say that
22 they will do their best, but the question then becomes what
23 does that mean? The parties are entitled to have jurors who
24 believe, based upon knowing themselves and the way in which
25 they operate and their commitment to fairness, that the jurors
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1 believe not that they will do their best or try, but that they
2 will be fair and impartial and that they will decide the case
3 based solely on the facts as the jurors find them and the law
4 as I give it to them. So that is why I follow up on your
5 answer when you say --
6 A. I would be fair.
7 Q. You will be fair?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Will you decide this case based solely upon the evidence or
10 lack of evidence and my instructions on the law?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is there anything that I have asked you about or is there
13 anything in the questionnaire or anything that I have told you
14 that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror?
15 A. No.
16 Q. As you can tell from all of the questions and my
17 explanations, the fundamental issue is whether there is
18 anything in your personal history or life experience, whether I
19 have asked you about it specifically or not, that would prevent
20 you from being a fair and impartial juror.
21 So let me ask you one final time whether there is
22 anything, whether I have asked you about it specifically or
23 not, that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
24 juror in this case?
25 A. I was teaching on 9/11, so being in a public school on that
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1 day and having students who were directly affected by that,
2 that would be the only thing.
3 Q. Okay.
4 Well, I am glad you brought that to my attention. Let
5 me explain something.
6 This case has nothing to do with 9/11. None of the
7 defendants are charged with anything to do with 9/11. None of
8 the charges in the case involve 9/11. So 9/11 has nothing to
9 do with this case. You raised 9/11 and I appreciate your doing
10 that because it was something you wanted to bring to my
11 attention, and so I appreciate that.
12 If you were chosen as a juror I can tell you this case
13 doesn't involve 9/11. So then the question is whether there is
14 anything about 9/11 that would prevent you from listening to
15 the evidence in this case or the lack of evidence and deciding
16 this case based solely on the evidence or lack of evidence and
17 my instructions on the law.
18 A. No.
19 Q. If you were chosen as a juror, would you decide this case
20 based solely on the evidence or lack of evidence in this case
21 and my instructions on the law?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is there anything that you heard, read, seen, listened to
24 that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in
25 this case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay.
3 Thank you. Could you step out for a moment?
4 A. Sure.
5 (Juror absent)
6 THE COURT: All right.
7 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, the first matter that concerns
8 us is is that she answered question 75 saying that she had no
9 friends in the Middle East and then she volunteered that she
10 has friends in Israel. I would ask the court to follow up with
11 the juror. Are they good friends? Do you keep in touch with
12 them? Do you discuss Middle Eastern politics? Questions that
13 would be designed to if not uncover a challenge for cause to
14 help us with peremptories.
15 With respect to her traffic accident, was she
16 satisfied with the lawyer?
17 THE COURT: Go ahead.
18 I explored that with her and nothing about that that
19 will affect her ability to be fair and impartial.
20 MR. TIGAR: And given her volunteered statement that
21 she was concerned because she was teaching on 9/11 and the
22 fall-out from it, as she sits there now, does she have any
23 feeling about the guilt or innocence of these defendants. Does
24 she think they are probably guilty?
25 THE COURT: All right.
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1 Anyone else?
2 Let's call the juror back.
3 (Juror present)
4 BY THE COURT:
5 Q. Juror number 38, I wanted to follow up on a few things.
6 You had mentioned that you have friends in Israel and
7 can you tell me whether they are close friends or
8 acquaintances?
9 A. Close friends, but mainly e-mails and phone calls.
10 Q. Okay. And in the course of the phone calls and e-mails
11 with your friends, do you discuss politics?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay.
14 Is there anything about any of your prior
15 correspondence, e-mails, phone calls with your friends that
16 would affect your ability to be fair and impartial in this
17 case?
18 A. No.
19 Q. And do you understand that if you were chosen as a juror in
20 this case, you could not talk about this case with anyone else?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you understand that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In fact, you are under my continuing instructions not to
25 talk about it now, do you understand that?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And would you do that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Would you follow my instructions?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right.
7 Among the instructions that I gave you was that all of
8 the defendants who are on trial are presumed to be innocent.
9 That is a presumption that they have now. It continues to
10 exist throughout the trial and into jury deliberations. Do you
11 understand that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And will you follow that rule of law?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, I have also told you that there is an indictment and
16 that there are charges. But I have told you that those are
17 only charges. They are not evidence of anything. Do you
18 understand that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And will you follow that rule of law?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is there anything that you have seen, heard or read that
23 would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror and
24 rendering a verdict in this case based solely on the evidence
25 or lack of evidence?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. All right.
3 Can you step out one more time please.
4 (juror absent)
5 THE COURT: I am prepared to have the juror come back
6 on June 18.
7 All right. No further questions? No challenges?
8 (Juror present)
9 BY THE COURT:
10 Q. You are continuing in the process of jury selection and, as
11 I told you, you will be asked to call back on June 18th. Mr.
12 Fletcher will give you a note that indicates call back on June
13 18 and the number and all. It's very important that you
14 continue to follow my instructions. Please, please don't talk
15 about this case or anything to do with it with anyone. Don't
16 look at or listen to or read anything to do with the case. If
17 you should see something turn away. Don't look at, listen to
18 or read anything to do with the case.
19 Finally, as I will tell you if you are eventually
20 selected as a juror in this case, and it's very important to
21 follow, please keep an open mind until you have heard all of
22 the evidence, I have instructed you on the law, and you have
23 gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. Fairness
24 and justice to the parties requires that you do that. All
25 right?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Good to see you.
3 A. Thank you.
4 (Juror absent)
5 THE COURT: I think that this would be a time for a
6 mid-morning break for ten minutes.
7 (Recess)
8 (In open court)
9 THE COURT: Please be seated all.
10 Before we call the next juror in let me give you
11 another piece of correspondence, this from Juror 200, who is
12 following up on a request for excusal that was noted in the
13 questionnaire. It involves a trip at the end of June, June
14 23rd to June 28th, and you can look at this.
15 This was a juror that I had already indicated to you I
16 was inclined to excuse but you can look at the letter and think
17 about it and we can talk about it maybe after lunch.
18 Okay, the next juror is Juror Number 39.
19 (Juror present)
20 BY THE COURT:
21 Q. Good morning, Juror 39.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. Could you pull the microphone toward you.
24 A. Is this good?
25 Q. That is good, thank you.
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1 Before I ask you any follow-up questions on the
2 questionnaire, let me ask you some preliminary questions.
3 Since you were here last has anything changed
4 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
5 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
6 fair and impartial juror in this case?
7 A. No.
8 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
9 chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So after today
10 it's unlikely that you will have to come back or have any
11 contact here until June 18th. On June 18th, that is the date
12 to call back.
13 Now, does that schedule present any serious hardship
14 for you?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay.
17 Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone
18 about this case or have you looked at or listened to anything
19 about the case?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And that includes any conversations with anyone here at the
24 courthouse or any prospective jurors?
25 A. No, we haven't talked about the case, no.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 While you were waiting in the other room with the
3 other prospective jurors, did you talk to anyone or did you
4 overhear anyone talking about the case?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay.
7 You mentioned that you have a son who is a college
8 graduate but is he working? Is he employed now?
9 A. He lives in California, yes.
10 Q. And what does he do in California?
11 A. He is a computer accountant.
12 Q. Computer accountant, okay. Thank you.
13 You indicated that you are currently unemployed.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that you were previously a printer?
16 A. Photography and lab printer.
17 Q. Photography?
18 A. Printing bar mitzvahs, school pictures, anything like that.
19 Q. Okay. And you indicated that you are disabled now.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And I really don't mean to pry, but could you tell us --
22 A. I have a rare lung disease but it's in remission.
23 Q. Okay.
24 Is there anything about your lung disease that would
25 interfere with your ability to serve as a juror in this case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you take any medications for that or anything?
3 A. No, other than my pump if I need it. Like if I am outside
4 and the air is bad, something like that, if I walk too fast,
5 but nothing -- other than the weather, it depends on the
6 weather.
7 Q. You take something for the weather?
8 A. It depends on the weather, you know.
9 Q. Okay. What kind of medication would you take if the
10 weather changes or you walk too much?
11 A. I have a Butirol pump.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. And I have oxygen in the night but it's only like at night
14 when I sleep.
15 Q. Okay. It's like an asthma pump?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. And you only have to use that if the weather changes or you
18 walk too fast?
19 A. If I get out of breath, you know.
20 Q. Okay.
21 Is there anything about that that would interfere with
22 your ability to be a juror and to listen to the evidence?
23 A. No. It's not strenuous.
24 Q. I am sorry?
25 A. It's not strenuous, nothing physical, just sitting.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 You mentioned that you do volunteer work. Could you
3 generally describe the kind of volunteer work that you do?
4 A. A lot with democratic club, after school, the FDA school, a
5 lot with the democratic club.
6 Q. Okay.
7 You mentioned that you had prior jury service and it
8 wasn't clear to me the way in which the questionnaire is worded
9 how to divide the cases, so let me go over it with you.
10 You have told us that you previously served as a juror
11 three times, is that it?
12 A. I served on one case once and two other times I served on
13 jury duty.
14 Q. Let me just go through those instances. You said there was
15 one case that you served on the jury in that case?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And was that a civil or criminal case?
18 A. Criminal case.
19 Q. And about when was that?
20 A. In the '80s.
21 Q. '80s, okay.
22 And was that in state court?
23 A. 100 Centre Street.
24 Q. 100 Centre Street?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. That is state court.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that was the case where the charge was attempted
4 murder?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And did you participate in the jury deliberations?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay.
9 Now, don't tell me what the verdict was, but did the
10 jury reach a verdict?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right.
13 And you mentioned on your form that there was a civil
14 case back in about 1990.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you serve as a juror in that case?
17 A. No, they settled out of court.
18 Q. They settled?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And did the trial start in that case or was it settled
21 before?
22 A. After they picked the jury they decided to settle.
23 Q. I see.
24 And was that in state court also?
25 A. Yes, state court, yes.
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1 Q. And do you recall what that case was about?
2 A. It had something to do with printing on a shirt, some
3 printing or something.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. The rights to it.
6 Q. The rights?
7 A. The rights to who originally owned the patent I guess you
8 would call it. That is what it was.
9 Q. Okay.
10 And was there another case that you also served as a
11 juror?
12 A. I came close to serving.
13 Q. Okay. Tell me about that.
14 A. I don't remember about this case.
15 Oh, that is when they picked all the jurors. That was
16 another one where they had picked all the jurors and they were
17 satisfied and we were sitting on the other side and then
18 settled.
19 Q. Was that in state court also?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And was that a civil case?
22 A. Yes, it was.
23 Q. And do you recall about when that was?
24 A. Towards the middle '90s. The exact dates I am not good
25 with but it was in the '90s.
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1 Q. Okay, '90s.
2 Do you recall what that case was about?
3 A. Something about electronics. I really don't remember.
4 Q. Okay.
5 Now, is there anything about your prior experience
6 with the court system and with jurors and with lawyers, or
7 anything about your prior experiences that you have just told
8 me about, that would prevent you from being a fair and
9 impartial juror in this case?
10 A. No.
11 Q. All right.
12 In answering the questions about your experience with
13 the justice system, there was one question that you left out.
14 Have you or anyone close to you ever been the victim of a
15 serious crime?
16 A. No.
17 Q. No, okay.
18 You mentioned that you were somewhat knowledgeable
19 about Islam. What is the basis for your knowledge about Islam?
20 A. Through some neighbors that are in Jerusalem but Islam, I
21 don't have a great knowledge, you know, other than the prayers,
22 and certain holidays, but I am not -- I wouldn't take a test on
23 it.
24 Q. Okay. You have neighbors who are of the Islamic faith?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Is there anything about that that would prevent you from
2 being fair and impartial in this case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices towards people of the
5 Islamic faith?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay.
8 You mentioned that you had heard something about
9 Sheikh Abdel Rahman. Can you tell me what you recall hearing
10 about him?
11 A. To the best of my knowledge, I believe he was convicted for
12 bombing -- it had something to do with the World Trade first
13 bombing in about '93, somewhere in around there, and he is
14 blind.
15 Q. Okay.
16 Now, if you were chosen as a juror in this case what
17 you would have to do is to listen to the evidence or lack of
18 evidence in this case and decide this case based solely upon
19 the evidence or lack of evidence in this case. Do you
20 understand that?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. And will you do that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And is there anything that you have heard or read about
25 Sheikh Rahman that would prevent you from being a fair and
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1 impartial juror in this case?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You also mentioned that you had known one or more people
4 that were injured or hurt in the World Trade Center in 9/11.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you just tell me how many people?
7 A. That passed away and were hurt?
8 Q. Right.
9 A. About a total of 6.
10 Q. Six okay.
11 Now, this case has nothing to do with 9/11, this case
12 does not. And none of the defendants who are on trial in this
13 case are accused of having done anything in connection with
14 9/11. This case simply doesn't involve 9/11. It's not about
15 9/11. Do you understand that?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Now, is there anything about the fact that you know people
18 who were harmed or killed in 9/11 that would prevent you from
19 listening to the evidence in this case and deciding this case
20 based solely upon the evidence or lack of evidence in this
21 case?
22 A. I could be fair.
23 Q. You could be fair in the case?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And decide this case based solely upon the evidence or lack
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1 of evidence in this case?
2 A. In this case, right.
3 Q. If you were chosen, and I know that this is repetitious,
4 but it's very important to me to understand your responses and
5 your state of mind, but if you were chosen as a juror in this
6 case you would be required under the law to decide this case
7 based solely upon the evidence or lack of evidence in the case
8 and my instructions on the law. Will you do that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And can you do that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. As you can tell from all of my questions, the fundamental
13 issue is whether there is anything in your personal history or
14 life experience that would prevent you from acting as a fair
15 and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one final
16 time whether there is anything, whether I have asked you about
17 it specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a
18 fair and impartial juror in this case?
19 A. No.
20 Q. All right.
21 Thank you, Juror 39. Could you step out please for a
22 brief bit.
23 (Juror absent)
24 THE COURT: All right.
25 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I think she mentioned that she
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1 knew 6 people and were they friends, were they relatives?
2 THE COURT: All right. I will ask.
3 MR. TIGAR: Could you follow up with that?
4 THE COURT: Yes. I will follow up and if there is
5 nothing in response to that question that develops anything
6 further I will tell the juror, rather than to come back and
7 forth, to come back on June 18th.
8 All right.
9 (Juror present)
10 BY THE COURT:
11 Q. Juror 39, you mentioned in response to my questions that
12 there were 6 people that you knew who had been killed in 9/11.
13 Could you tell me what your relationship was to those people?
14 A. One was one of my friend's friend, a girl I grew up with.
15 Q. I am sorry, that was a friend of a friend?
16 A. I knew the person but not close but she was a friend, a
17 neighbor of mine who she grew up with. You know how you grow
18 up with friends. One was my friend's son. The other 2 were
19 injured. They lived in my complex. There were 2 boys that
20 were injured. 2 died and 4 were injured real bad.
21 Q. Okay. You have explained about 4 of them and a friend of a
22 friend, a friend's son, 2 who lived in the complex.
23 A. Where I live, yes. There are 3 that really live in my
24 complex, in and around my area.
25 Q. Okay.
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1 Was there another person?
2 A. There are two -- I said about six, two that passed away,
3 right, and maybe it was five. Three that actually live in my
4 complex and one in the Bronx because she moved.
5 Q. Maybe it was 5?
6 A. 5. 6, one moved to the Bronx. 3 in my complex. One moved
7 to the Bronx afterwards.
8 Q. 3 lived in your complex and 3 were friends or friends of
9 friends?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right.
12 And I previously have gone over with you that this
13 case is not about 9/11.
14 A. Right. I know it's not.
15 Q. Is there anything about any of your relationships with any
16 of these people that would prevent you from being a fair and
17 impartial juror in this case?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Juror 39, you are still in the process of jury selection in
20 this case. I am going to ask you to come back -- well, you
21 will be asked to call in on June 18th and Mr. Fletcher will
22 give you a slip of paper to tell you who to call. It will be
23 the jury administrator and what to do. So you can go about
24 what you regularly do every day and just call in on June 18th,
25 and please remember my continuing instruction. Please don't
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1 talk about this case at all or anything to do with it. Please
2 remember not to look at, listen to, read anything to do with
3 the case. If you see anything at all just turn away.
4 And as I will tell all the jurors who are finally
5 selected in the case, remember to keep an open mind until you
6 have heard all of the evidence in the case, I have instructed
7 you on the law, and you have gone to the jury room to begin
8 your deliberations. Fairness and justice to the parties
9 requires that you do that. All right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. It's good to see you.
12 A. Have a nice day.
13 (juror absent)
14 THE COURT: All right, juror number 41.
15 (Continued on next page)
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 THE COURT: Juror Number 41 is not here.
2 MR. MORVILLO: My notes indicate she had exams today.
3 DEPUTY CLERK: Oh, that's right.
4 THE COURT: Juror 43.
5 (Juror present)
6 BY THE COURT:
7 Q. Hi, Juror 43.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Good to see you.
10 A. Good to be here.
11 Q. Let me ask you a few preliminary questions before I turn to
12 the follow-up questions on the questionnaire. Since you were
13 here last, has anything changed concerning your ability to
14 serve as a juror in this case, or has anything occurred to you
15 that may affect your ability to be a fair and impartial juror
16 in this case?
17 A. No.
18 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
19 chosen in this case will be Monday, June the 21st. And so
20 after today it's unlikely that you'll be called to come back
21 before June the 18th. Does that present any serious hardship
22 for you?
23 A. No hardship.
24 Q. And since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone
25 about the case or have you looked at or listened to anything
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1 about the case?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And that includes any conversations with anyone here at the
6 courthouse or with any other prospective jurors?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. And while you were waiting with the other prospective
9 jurors, did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
10 A. We did not discuss the case.
11 Q. Okay, thank you.
12 You mentioned that -- explained forthrightly that this
13 case would not be a serious hardship for you.
14 A. Right.
15 Q. You also said that you would not be paid a salary while you
16 were serving as a juror in this case?
17 A. Correct. I'm freelance.
18 Q. So you would continue to earn income from your freelancing?
19 A. No, but -- I don't get paid a regular salary. So I would
20 not get the income that I normally get. I'd only get the
21 stipend from this.
22 Q. But that would not be an economic hardship for you?
23 A. It should not be an economic hardship.
24 Q. Okay. You had indicated that you have a bachelors in
25 political science and broadcast journalism. Where did you go
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1 to college?
2 A. Syracuse University.
3 Q. I think, if I put together the answers on the
4 questionnaire, you worked at a TV job for about two and a half
5 years; and before that, at another TV job for about two years.
6 Is that right?
7 A. Yeah. I still work at a TV job.
8 Q. Right. Can you tell me -- that goes up to about the last
9 four and a half years or so?
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. What did you do before that?
12 A. I was a legislative aide to a local representative in
13 Boston, Massachusetts.
14 Q. And how long -- when you say a local rep, was that a city
15 level?
16 A. It was a state rep, state rep.
17 Q. Okay. Is there anything about that job that would prevent
18 you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You mention that your father was in the Navy. How long ago
21 was that?
22 A. That was I think it was about '67 or so, '68 or so. He had
23 just gotten married and he served briefly.
24 Q. Is there anything about that that would prevent you from
25 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. You've been involved obviously over the last four and a
3 half years with TV, and you indicate that you work in the TV
4 newsroom. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you
5 would have to decide this case based solely upon the evidence
6 or the lack of evidence that's received here in court. You'd
7 have to listen to the testimony and the exhibits and decide the
8 case based solely upon the evidence or lack of evidence here in
9 court. Could you do that?
10 A. Sure.
11 Q. And another instruction that I've given to you before and
12 that I would continue to give you is that you can't look at or
13 listen to anything on the news, TV, radio, newspapers,
14 Internet, anything, to do with the case. Do you understand
15 that?
16 A. I understand that.
17 Q. And if you saw something, you'd have to turn away.
18 A. Right.
19 Q. And would you do that?
20 A. I would. To the best of my ability, I would do that.
21 Q. You indicate that you have a friend who worked as a
22 journalist in Egypt.
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. And is that person still working as a journalist in Egypt?
25 A. Yes, she is.
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1 Q. Have you spoken to that person about this case or anything
2 to do with this case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Is there anything that you've discussed with your friend
5 that would affect your ability to be a fair and impartial juror
6 in this case?
7 A. No.
8 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, another
9 instruction that I've given you before and that I'll continue
10 to give you is that you can't talk about this case with anyone,
11 and that would certainly include your friend who's a
12 journalist. Will you do that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You indicate that you're somewhat knowledgeable about Islam
15 and you've indicated that you have taken college classes, read
16 magazine articles and television programs. Can you just
17 briefly tell us, describe for us what college classes, magazine
18 articles, television programs you've seen about Islam?
19 A. I wouldn't say there's anything specific. I took a number
20 of international relations classes in school. They dealt with
21 lots of different cultures and religions and so forth.
22 In terms of news magazines, news magazine shows,
23 nothing -- nothing specific that I can say off the top of my
24 head, but because of the nature of my job, I have to watch a
25 lot of that type of show. So I've come across a lot -- you
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1 know, I constantly watch and read.
2 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices against anyone of
3 Middle Eastern descent or anyone of the Islamic faith?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Is there anything that you've heard or read about Islam
6 that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in
7 this case and deciding this case based solely upon the evidence
8 or lack of evidence in this case?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You had mentioned that you had heard or read something
11 about Sheikh Abdel Rahman. Can you just tell me what you've
12 heard or read about him?
13 A. Because of the nature of my job, I've heard, read about the
14 1993 bombing, World Trade Center. So I've heard about that.
15 But nothing that I can say specifically, I guess.
16 Q. All right. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you
17 would have to listen to the evidence or lack of evidence in
18 this case, and you would have to ask yourself, what is it
19 that's been proven or not proven in this case, based solely
20 upon what you hear from the witness stand and see in any
21 exhibits that are received in evidence. Will you do that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And can you do that in view of anything that you've seen,
24 heard or read in the past?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Have you seen, heard or read about anything to do with this
2 case?
3 A. The names in this case, some of the names have been
4 familiar. Again, from its nature of my job that I've --
5 sometimes you hear the names and they trigger, you know, that
6 you've heard it before. But because of what you said, I didn't
7 go back and research it, so....
8 Q. Is there anything in particular that you can recall seeing,
9 hearing, reading about this case?
10 A. The only thing that I could recall was one of the names --
11 the names of one of the defendants, Lynne Stewart.
12 Q. I'm sorry?
13 A. One of the names of the defendants, Lynne Stewart.
14 Q. Okay. Do you recall seeing, hearing or reading, other than
15 the fact that you've seen or heard her name --
16 A. Right.
17 Q. -- is there anything that you can recall now that you've
18 seen, heard or read about her?
19 A. Nothing specific.
20 Q. Okay. Is there anything about the fact you've previously
21 heard or read her name that would prevent you from being a fair
22 and impartial juror in this case and deciding this case based
23 solely on the fact of this case as you hear them here in Court?
24 A. No.
25 Q. All right. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, as
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1 I've previously told you, you would be required to decide this
2 case based solely on the evidence or lack of evidence here in
3 court; and in accordance with my instructions on the law. Will
4 you do that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And as you can tell from all of my questions, the
7 fundamental issue is whether there's anything in your personal
8 history or life experience that would prevent you from acting
9 as a fair and impartial juror in this case, so let me ask you
10 one final time whether there's anything, whether I've asked you
11 about it specifically or not, that would prevent you from being
12 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
13 A. Nothing would prevent me from being a fair and impartial
14 juror in this case.
15 THE COURT: All right. Could you step out for a bit,
16 please?
17 (Juror absent)
18 THE COURT: My deputy advises me that the juror looks
19 familiar, but that he doesn't know him. My deputy went to
20 Syracuse. This juror -- this potential juror went to Syracuse.
21 I'm perfectly happy to ask the potential juror whether he knows
22 me or my deputy or anyone else that he knows of on the staff
23 and whether that would affect anything.
24 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. We would also ask the
25 Court to inquire of the juror what types of stories did he
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1 produce as a television news producer.
2 THE COURT: All right.
3 MR. TIGAR: And did he cover trials or lawyers or any
4 stories dealing with 9/11 or the subject of terrorism.
5 Also, your Honor, he did on his questionnaire answer
6 no to whether he had heard of any of the defendants. He now
7 recalls having heard of Miss Stewart, but says, quote, "nothing
8 specific", close quote. Which is always a tip-off that there
9 must be something there. If the Court would follow up and ask
10 what is his impression of her from what he has read or heard,
11 or some open-ended question of that kind.
12 Also, I'm reminded, could you ask him does he know for
13 whom the Egyptian journalist works? As the Court is aware,
14 there's some pending dispute relating to an Egyptian
15 journalist, and that might yield something.
16 THE COURT: Okay. Yes?
17 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, we had this in our
18 questionnaire -- I don't want to repeat it, but this is another
19 journalist or person that works in the journalism field and we
20 did ask the journalist yesterday whether or not the fact that
21 somebody may be subpoenaed here would affect their ability to
22 be fair and impartial. We'd ask you to do this with this
23 potential juror as well.
24 THE COURT: Sure. Okay.
25 (Juror present)
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Hi, Juror 43. I had some follow-up questions. First, do
3 you know me as the trial judge or my deputy here, Mr. Fletcher,
4 or anyone else who you --
5 A. No.
6 Q. Anyone else on my staff?
7 A. No.
8 Q. No. Okay. Can you tell me over your years as a producer,
9 what kinds of programs it is that you produce?
10 A. Sure. I produce local news program. I worked for WNBC --
11 Q. I don't need to know your specific employers. I'm just --
12 I just want to know the types of programs.
13 A. Local news.
14 Q. Local news.
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. And in the course of that local news, have you done stories
17 on trials and lawyers?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. All right. Have you done any programs on Sheikh Rahman?
20 A. Yes. We've done stories, yes.
21 Q. No, did you?
22 A. Did I? I'm sure I have.
23 Q. And when did you do that?
24 A. It's hard to pinpoint exactly, but, I mean, in the course
25 of my career, I'm sure I've done stories in some form or
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1 another.
2 Q. Do you recall, you know, when that was?
3 A. No, I really don't.
4 Q. You weren't a -- well, were you working in -- as a producer
5 back in the early 1990's?
6 A. No. I started in 1996, late '96, early '97.
7 Q. And do you recall working on -- do you recall personally
8 working on a story about Sheikh Rahman?
9 A. Well, it kind of goes like -- I mean, in the course of
10 producing a newscast, you put together several stories and at
11 some point, in one of the newscasts I've produced, I'm sure
12 there was a story, that we did some kind of coverage.
13 Q. And do you recall what, if anything, was discussed in that
14 coverage?
15 A. Not specifically. Sorry.
16 Q. Generally?
17 A. I really can't. I mean, it's hard to say without, you
18 know, going back and, you know, researching the stories to see
19 exactly what you wrote or what was said.
20 Q. Okay. About how many stories have you worked on?
21 A. In --
22 Q. Over the course of your --
23 A. Career?
24 Q. Right.
25 A. A lot. Any newscast is going to have between 15 -- at
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1 least 15 to 20 stories, depending on the length of the
2 newscast. And I produce a newscast every day, Monday through
3 Friday, more or less, for the past five years, eight years or
4 so.
5 Q. So you're talking about perhaps a hundred stories a week?
6 A. Sure. Yeah. I mean, you know, the stories -- when you say
7 "story", I'm talking -- it can be -- it can be a 20-second
8 thing, 20-second clip, or it can be an extended report, and
9 when you produce a story, you decide what form it's going to
10 take -- what format it's going to be.
11 Q. In the course of those stories, did you do any stories on
12 9/11?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And do you understand that this case does not concern 9/11,
15 none of the defendants are charged with anything to do with
16 9/11, the charges in this case don't concern 9/11? Do you
17 understand that?
18 A. I understand that.
19 Q. Now, is there anything from working on stories about 9/11
20 that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in
21 this case?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You had mentioned that you recalled the name of
24 Ms. Stewart.
25 A. Uh-huh.
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1 Q. And do you recall whether any of the stories that you've
2 put together or worked on concerned Miss Stewart?
3 A. Yes, they concerned her. Again, what -- if you want
4 something specific, I can't recall something specific, what was
5 said or what was written. But, yes, concerning her, yes.
6 Q. Okay. Can you -- you say you can't recall anything
7 specific about those stories. Do you recall anything in
8 general?
9 A. Trial upcoming, that type of thing. I mean, it could have
10 been a quick mention; it could have been, you know, put into
11 the newscast.
12 Q. All right. As a result of that, those references --
13 A. Sure.
14 Q. -- do you have any impression of Ms. Stewart?
15 A. I don't have any positive or negative impression.
16 Q. All right. Is there anything that you can -- is there
17 anything about any of the stories that you've worked on or
18 anything that you've seen, heard or read about anything that
19 causes you to have any doubts that you could be a fair and
20 impartial juror in this case and decide this case based solely
21 on the evidence or lack of evidence presented here in Court?
22 A. No doubts.
23 Q. You mention that you have a friend who is an Egyptian
24 journalist. What organization does that friend work for?
25 A. She's an American working in Egypt. She works for the
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1 Mideast Association as a freelance journalist.
2 Q. Okay. Is there anything about that or your relation with
3 that friend that would prevent you from being a fair and
4 impartial juror in this case?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You've worked in TV news, and it is possible that in the
7 course of this trial, journalists may testify. If a journalist
8 testified, you would have to listen to the testimony and assess
9 the credibility of that testimony in the same way that you
10 would the credibility of any other witness. And no witness is
11 entitled to any greater or lesser credibility because of their
12 occupation.
13 Do you understand that?
14 A. Yes, I understand.
15 Q. And would you follow that instruction?
16 A. I would.
17 Q. It is possible that journalists would be -- that some
18 journalists would be subpoenaed, and if a journalist were
19 subpoenaed and testified here, the Court will have determined
20 that the witness can testify, and issues of law are for the
21 Court. The jury has to assess the evidence that's introduced;
22 it's up to the Court to decide its legal issues with respect to
23 the admissibility of evidence.
24 Is there anything about the fact that journalists
25 could be subpoenaed and testify, anything about that that would
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1 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this
2 court?
3 A. No.
4 Q. All right. Could you step down again, please?
5 A. Sure.
6 (Juror absent)
7 THE COURT: All right. No further questions? No
8 challenges?
9 Let's bring back Juror Number 43.
10 (Juror present)
11 THE COURT: All right. Juror Number 43, you are
12 continuing to participate in the process. You should call back
13 on June the 18th, and we'll give you a slip with the
14 instruction about who to call. Meanwhile, you can go about
15 what you regularly do.
16 It's very important that you follow my instructions.
17 Please, don't talk about this case or anything to do with it.
18 Please remember my continuation instructions not to look at,
19 listen to, read anything to do with the case. If you should
20 see something, just turn away. Please remember, as I will tell
21 the jurors that are actually selected, keep an open mind until
22 you've heard all of the evidence, I've instructed you on the
23 law, and you've gone to the jury room to begin your
24 deliberations. Fairness and justice requires that you do that.
25 All right?
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1 JUROR: Okay.
2 THE COURT: All right. We'll see you then.
3 JUROR: Thank you very much.
4 (Juror absent)
5 THE COURT: 35 is here, so let's do Juror Number 35
6 before we break for lunch.
7 (Juror present)
8 BY THE COURT:
9 Q. Please, have a seat.
10 A. Thank you.
11 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 35. I have some preliminary
12 questions before I get to the follow-up on the questionnaire.
13 Since you were here last, has anything changed
14 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case, or
15 has anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be
16 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Okay. And it now appears that the date that the final jury
19 will be chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So
20 after today, it's unlikely that you'll be called to come back
21 or have to call in before June the 18th. Does that present any
22 serious hardship for you?
23 A. Not at the moment, right now.
24 Q. Okay. Do you anticipate it creating a hardship for you?
25 A. I'm trying to take some courses in college.
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1 Q. Keep your voice up and talk into the microphone. You can
2 sit down.
3 A. I'd rather stand.
4 Q. It would be better if you sat.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. And just bring the microphone to you. It's okay.
7 A. Okay. I'm trying to take some summer courses, and I'm
8 supposed to register around June 8th. So maybe pertaining in
9 that matter, so...
10 Q. You are -- well, June 8th would not be a problem?
11 A. But I'm trying to register at that moment, so which means
12 classes are going to start around the 20th of that month.
13 Q. Okay. Are you in college now?
14 A. Yes, I am.
15 Q. And are you going to college full-time?
16 A. Part-time.
17 Q. And how many -- do you go in the day or at night?
18 A. I'd rather go the courses in the daytime.
19 Q. You go during the day?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you take the same courses at night, or --
22 A. No, because I have a job to go to, as well.
23 Q. Okay. And would serving on the jury prevent you from
24 attending your classes?
25 A. Yes, actually, it would.
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1 Q. All right. Can you step out for a moment?
2 A. Sure.
3 (Juror absent)
4 MR. RUHNKE: It's a legitimate hardship, per your
5 instructions. We believe you should excuse this juror.
6 MR. DEMBER: We agree, your Honor.
7 THE COURT: So do I. All right. We'll excuse Juror
8 Number 35.
9 (Juror present)
10 THE COURT: Please have a seat.
11 All right, Juror 35, I'll excuse you. I appreciate
12 your participating in this process, and by doing that, you have
13 performed a public service. So we appreciate your
14 participation. And you can now go home and all the paperwork
15 will be taken care of through the mail.
16 JUROR: All right. Thank you very much, Sir.
17 THE COURT: Fine.
18 (Juror absent)
19 THE COURT: All right. Please be back at 10 of 2:00
20 and we'll deal with those two juror notes that I had given you
21 before. All right?
22 (Luncheon recess)
23
24
25
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1 AFTERNOON SESSION
2 2 p.m.
3 THE COURT: Please be seated all.
4 A couple of matters.
5 Mr. Grate tells me that Juror Number 53 is not here,
6 that the juror called in. The juror's son is ill. Mr. Grate
7 will tell the juror to return tomorrow if the trial is on or
8 next week if not.
9 Juror Number 135 has a business meeting tomorrow.
10 It's unlikely Juror Number 135 will be called tomorrow and Mr.
11 Grate will tell juror 135 that juror 135 can go forward with
12 his business meeting tomorrow and will be called when we reach
13 the jury.
14 That leaves the two letters that I asked you to
15 consider over lunch, Juror Number 200 and Juror Number 247.
16 What are the parties' positions?
17 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, the government would agree to
18 excuse them from service.
19 MR. RUHNKE: We agree.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 Juror numbers 200 and 247 are therefore excused and
22 Mr. Grate can contact those jurors.
23 The issue is whether we let any of the jurors who were
24 asked to come in for this afternoon go home and come back
25 tomorrow. That is why I am checking the numbers for the number
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1 that we have left over from this morning. I am going through
2 the list.
3 Okay, we have jurors who are from this morning as well
4 as jurors who have been asked to come in this afternoon, but
5 it's not clear to me that we will not be able to go into the
6 jurors who otherwise came in this afternoon, so I am not going
7 to send anyone home. It depends on what our pays is of going
8 through the jurors.
9 So the next juror is Juror Number 44.
10 (Juror present)
11 BY THE COURT:
12 Q. Good afternoon.
13 Juror 44, good afternoon.
14 A. Good afternoon.
15 Q. Good to see you.
16 Before I ask you some questions to follow up on the
17 questions on the questionnaire let me ask you some preliminary
18 questions.
19 Since you were here the last time has anything changed
20 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
21 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
22 fair and impartial juror in this case?
23 A. No.
24 Q. It now appears that the final jury will be chosen in this
25 case on Monday, June 21st, so after today it's unlikely that
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1 you will be called to come back before June 18th.
2 Does that present any serious hardship for you?
3 A. A possibility.
4 Q. Can you tell me about that?
5 A. My daughter-in-law is having a baby and --
6 Q. Could you keep your voice up? Talk in to the microphone.
7 A. My daughter-in-law is having a baby at the end of May, June
8 and since I am retired I baby-sit for them. Right now I take
9 care of his two-year old. That is my new job in life.
10 Q. Okay.
11 The two-year old, is that one of your grandchildren?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Assuming that your daughter-in-law has the baby the end of
14 May, the beginning of June, we wouldn't start this case until
15 the final jury selection on June 21st. Would that be a serious
16 hardship for you?
17 A. I watch him on Tuesday and Wednesday right now. They work.
18 My son works and my daughter-in-law works.
19 Q. How many children do you watch now?
20 A. Just him, my one grandson.
21 Q. You watch the two-year old?
22 A. Correct, yes, sir, your Honor.
23 Q. And what about your daughter-in-law's baby, would you have
24 any role in that after the end of May, beginning of June, do
25 you know?
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1 A. I don't know. Hopefully not.
2 Q. I am sorry?
3 A. Hopefully not.
4 Q. In answering the questionnaire, you had pointed out the
5 issue of your daughter-in-law having the baby at the end of
6 May, but you hadn't pointed out the issue of the other child
7 that you baby-sit for. Is that something which you have been
8 doing for a while?
9 A. Yes, your Honor.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. I am sure he can make other arrangements.
12 Q. Okay.
13 And it's your son's child?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Well, okay. Tell me, if you were chosen as a juror in this
16 case and you sat for 4 days a week from about 9:30 until 4:30,
17 would that be a serious hardship for you?
18 A. I don't think so, your Honor.
19 Q. Okay.
20 And you think that some other arrangements could be
21 made for the child that you look out after?
22 A. I am sure.
23 Q. Okay.
24 Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone
25 about this case or have you looked at or listened to anything
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1 about the case?
2 A. I just heard something on the radio yesterday and that was
3 it, short, on the news. Picking jurors, that is it.
4 Q. Did you hear anything else?
5 A. No, like I said, I didn't listen after that.
6 Q. Is there anything that you heard on the radio that would
7 affect your ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this
8 case?
9 A. No.
10 Q. There may well be other publicity about the case. There is
11 no way at all of knowing. Would you continue to follow my
12 instructions that if inadvertently you saw or heard something
13 about the case you would just turn away?
14 A. Of course, your Honor.
15 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about this case?
16 A. No.
17 Q. And that includes any conversations here at the courthouse
18 or with any other prospective jurors?
19 A. No way.
20 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
21 did anyone talk to you or did you overhear any conversations
22 about the case?
23 A. No, your Honor.
24 Q. Could you tell me what occupation your spouse had before
25 she retired? If she worked outside the house.
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1 A. She was like an executive secretary.
2 Q. And what kind of a firm did she work at as an executive
3 secretary?
4 A. NOP executive headquarters.
5 Q. You explained that you had had prior experience with 4
6 civil cases as a juror.
7 A. And a criminal case.
8 Q. And a criminal case.
9 A. Right.
10 Q. Okay.
11 Was that a total of 5 cases or 4?
12 A. It was 4 altogether.
13 Q. Okay.
14 And the questionnaire is not terribly clear on
15 dividing up among those cases, so let me start with the
16 criminal case.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. About when was the criminal case?
19 A. Well --
20 Q. If you can recall.
21 A. I guess about ten years ago.
22 Q. Was that in state or federal court?
23 A. Right here in federal court.
24 Q. And down here or up in Westchester?
25 A. Right here.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 And what kind of crime was alleged in that case?
3 A. I think it was fraudulent checks.
4 Q. Okay.
5 And did the jury reach a verdict in that case?
6 A. They did.
7 Q. Don't tell us what it was. And you participated as a juror
8 in that case?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. All right.
11 And you have sat on 3 civil cases?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Going from the earliest case you can recall, tell me what
14 that case was about, whether it was in state or federal court
15 and what the case was about.
16 A. Again it was here and it was Long Island Lighting. It was
17 a suit against them.
18 Q. Okay.
19 Do you recall what the suit was about?
20 A. I guess some generators that Long Island wasn't paying for.
21 Q. Okay.
22 And did that lawsuit go to the jury? Did the jury
23 decide that case?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the jury reached a verdict in that case?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And what is the next case you can recall that you served as
3 a juror?
4 A. Well, it was in upstate.
5 Q. Upstate -- was that in state court or federal court or
6 don't you recall?
7 A. It's state court.
8 Q. State court.
9 And that was a civil case?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. And what was that case about?
12 A. I don't recall. They dropped that one.
13 Q. I am sorry?
14 A. We picked the jury but it was dropped. I can't recall now.
15 Q. The jury was picked?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. And what was the last case that you can recall?
18 A. That again was settled out of court when we were picked. I
19 don't recall exactly.
20 Q. Okay. It was a civil case settled out of court?
21 A. Correct. Yes, your Honor.
22 Q. In describing the cases that you have been a juror in, you
23 said Long Island Lighting, a suit against them, and then you
24 said lawyer criminal. What did you mean by lawyer criminal?
25 A. It was a charge against a lawyer.
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1 Q. I see. The case ten years ago in federal court involving
2 the fraudulent checks was a suit against a lawyer?
3 A. Yes, your your Honor.
4 Q. Now, is there anything about your experience in those
5 cases, and I am referring to anything about those cases, your
6 experience with the court, with the lawyers in the case, with
7 the issues in the case, anything, jury deliberations, anything
8 about any of those cases that would prevent you from being a
9 fair and impartial juror in this case?
10 A. I don't think so, your Honor.
11 Q. Okay.
12 Do you have any doubts about that?
13 A. A possibility.
14 Q. I am sorry?
15 A. Yes, a post.
16 Q. Tell me what your doubts are.
17 A. Well, in my questionnaire you can see I had 3 friends that
18 were in my neighborhood that --
19 Q. Okay. I was going to get to that.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. And I will get to that in --
22 A. That would be the only reason.
23 Q. I am sorry, keep your voice up. I can't hear you.
24 A. That would be the only reason, Judge.
25 Q. Let me deal with the cases on which you have been a juror.
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1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Is there anything about those cases, and anything that
3 happened in those cases, any experiences that you had with the
4 court, the lawyers, jury deliberations, anything about those
5 cases that would affect your ability to be fair and impartial
6 in this case?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay.
9 And then I asked you whether you had any doubts and
10 you began to tell me about 9/11. But I will get to 9/11 in a
11 moment. But do you have any doubts in your mind over your
12 experience in these other cases, anything about those cases at
13 all that would give you any doubts as to whether you could be
14 fair and impartial in this case?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And is there anything about the fact that one of the
17 defendants in this case is a lawyer that would prevent from you
18 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
19 A. No. Not at all.
20 Q. You pointed out in response to one of my recent questions,
21 and you had also pointed out on the questionnaire, that you had
22 friends who were killed on September 11.
23 A. Yes, your Honor.
24 Q. And that that has caused you doubts. Let me explain some
25 things about this case. This case, as I explained to you
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1 during my preliminary instructions, has nothing to do with
2 9/11, and none of the defendants are charged with anything to
3 do with 9/11. None of the charges in this case involve 9/11.
4 Do you understand that?
5 A. I certainly do.
6 Q. Okay.
7 Despite that fact have any of your experiences with
8 your friends in connection with 9/11, would that interfere with
9 your ability to be fair and impartial in this case?
10 A. Yes -- I don't think so.
11 Q. Do you have any questions in your mind about that? Let me
12 explain something to you.
13 A. Go ahead.
14 Q. I told you that this case has nothing to do with 9/11 but
15 you have also explained to me that you are affected by 9/11 and
16 I understand that, and it is very important in this case, as it
17 is in every case, to assure that all of the parties in the case
18 have a jury which is fair and impartial and where the jurors
19 believe that they will be fair and impartial and that they
20 don't have questions or doubts about that. They have heard
21 about what the case is about. They have listened to the
22 court's instructions. They have attempted to, as best they
23 can, assess what is involved in the case, and then they tell me
24 whether they can be fair and impartial. And there is no right
25 or wrong answer to this. There are just truthful answers, and
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1 if you have doubts about your ability to be fair and impartial,
2 you just tell me. It's not a problem. You just have to tell
3 me frankly whether it is a problem for you.
4 A. I sure hope it's not really but, you know, I guess it might
5 be.
6 Q. Okay.
7 Could you step out please?
8 (Juror absent)
9 THE COURT: All right. I am prepared to excuse the
10 juror.
11 MR. TIGAR: The defense agrees, your Honor.
12 MR. DEMBER: No objection from the government, your
13 Honor.
14 (Juror present)
15 BY THE COURT:
16 Q. Please be seated.
17 Juror Number 44, I very much appreciate your
18 participating in the process and I am going to excuse you as a
19 juror. I very much appreciate your participating in the
20 process and answering the questionnaires and answering my
21 questions and let me reiterate to you what I have said, you
22 have done your duty and you have performed your jury service.
23 You have performed a public service by simply explaining to me
24 all of your considerations, and that is very important and I
25 appreciate very much your participation in the process and,
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1 again, emphasize to you that you performed a public service by
2 participating in the process.
3 You are being excused now and you can go home and all
4 the paperwork will be taken care of.
5 A. Okay. I am sorry.
6 (Juror absent)
7 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, before the next juror comes
8 in may I say something on the record?
9 THE COURT: Yes.
10 MR. RUHNKE: We were talking about this problem over
11 lunch or recurring issue over lunch, which is when jurors come
12 in or answer questionnaires that say I doubt my ability to be
13 fair and impartial because of 9/11 and various formulations,
14 and what we hear from that is that it's the subject of
15 terrorism generally that causes jurors to doubt their ability
16 to be fair and impartial.
17 What we would ask your Honor to do specifically is to,
18 first, assure the jurors that this case does not involve 9/11
19 and be sure they understand that, which you have been doing
20 right along. But to then ask them the question essentially are
21 you saying that because of your strong feelings about 9/11 you
22 doubt your ability to be fair in any case involving charges of
23 terrorism? Because that is what we are understanding the
24 shorthand reference to mean and we would ask you to proceed
25 that way if it's obvious during the discussion.
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1 THE COURT: Thank you.
2 It's absolutely plain, Mr. Ruhnke, that I follow up
3 all of these questions depending upon what the juror's answers
4 are and if I believe based upon those answers that there is a
5 reason to follow up further with respect to anything I do. If
6 I get any answers that suggest to me doubts, I follow up on
7 those doubts. And it's plain that I do it in a way precisely
8 to assure that the jurors who sit are fair and impartial. And
9 I did that precisely with the last juror, moving from the
10 issues of 9/11 to any doubts because it is obviously important
11 to me to assure myself that all of the parties in the case have
12 a jury which is fair and impartial and that the answers are
13 thoroughly obtained and explored. And my sense yesterday was
14 that the defendants thought even that I should be going more
15 quickly through this process.
16 I will take whatever time it takes to assure that any
17 questions are followed up and that the jurors who pass through
18 this process will be fair and impartial and that if there are
19 any questions that are raised, I follow up on them in ways that
20 are reasonable ways. And I appreciate your comment that it's
21 up to my discretion, but I exercise that discretion in a way to
22 assure that all of the parties in the case have fair and
23 impartial jurors, and that is precisely why I followed up in
24 the way that I did with the last juror.
25 MR. RUHNKE: I don't mean to be sounding critical and
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1 I think the court may have misunderstood our suggested letter
2 yesterday about the "speeding" things up. Nobody wants this
3 process to be anything but designed to produce fair and
4 impartial jurors and to provide information to both sides with
5 which they can intelligently exercise peremptory challenges.
6 But there is a difference between an open-ended question and a
7 closed-ended question and what I was suggesting -- and my
8 suggestion is for whatever it's worth -- that a more open-ended
9 question might produce more information. That is the only
10 point.
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 Juror Number 47.
13 (Juror present)
14 BY THE COURT:
15 Q. Please have a seat.
16 Good afternoon, Juror 47.
17 A. Good afternoon.
18 Q. Let me ask you some preliminary questions before I get to
19 the questions on the questionnaire.
20 Since you were here last has anything changed
21 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
22 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
23 fair and impartial juror in this case?
24 A. I was suffering from back ache and --
25 Q. I am sorry?
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1 A. I was suffering from back ache since I came here last time.
2 Q. You were suffering from --
3 A. Back ache and muscle spasm and because of that I couldn't
4 move my hand or the shoulder because I suffer from back pain.
5 Q. Is that continuing?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is this a new condition?
8 A. No, it's an existing condition.
9 Q. Does this come back from time to time?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How are you feeling today?
12 A. Today is better because it started from Sunday and it was
13 worse.
14 Q. How often do you have this?
15 A. Very often I have back pain but this spasm came up just
16 like that.
17 Q. Do you get these spasms --
18 A. Every now and then I get them.
19 Q. Would it be difficult because of that condition to serve on
20 the jury?
21 A. It's difficult to sit for a long time.
22 Q. Okay.
23 Can you step out for a moment?
24 (juror absent)
25 THE COURT: I am prepared to excuse the juror. But I
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1 will follow up if anyone wants.
2 MR. RUHNKE: We think it's a legitimate excuse and the
3 juror shouldn't be put through a painful experience just to be
4 a juror.
5 THE COURT: The government?
6 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, I would at least ask the
7 court to ask her -- she indicated she couldn't sit for a long
8 period of time. It's not clear what a long period of time is.
9 We take, as you said yesterday to one of our jurors -- I don't
10 know if she takes medication or not, your Honor.
11 THE COURT: All right. Call Juror Number 47 back.
12 (Juror present)
13 BY THE COURT:
14 Q. Please have a seat.
15 Juror Number 47, the muscle spasms that you get, do
16 you take any medication for that?
17 A. Bengay and cortiroidal things.
18 Q. Bengay and cortisone?
19 A. Yes, and massaging.
20 Q. How often does this happen?
21 A. The last two weeks I had two times I had it.
22 Q. I am sorry?
23 A. I had it two times the last two weeks.
24 Q. Two --
25 A. The last two weeks.
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1 Q. The last two weeks.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And has this happened to you before?
4 A. Yes, it has happened. I don't know whether it is the
5 change of weather. Whenever there is a change of weather I get
6 that.
7 Q. Change of weather?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. We sit for periods of about an hour and a half. We sit
10 from 9:30 until 12:30 with a break and then from 2 until 4:30
11 in the afternoon with a break. With a break would you be able
12 to sit or would that --
13 A. Usually I get it when I work up to one hour because
14 whenever I work I get it at work.
15 Q. If you were able to get up and stretch would you be able to
16 sit for those hours?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Would it be uncomfortable for you?
19 A. It would be uncomfortable, yes.
20 Q. Do you see a doctor at all for this?
21 A. This is due to an accident I had sometime back.
22 Q. Do you see a doctor for it?
23 A. I had taken a chiropractor to take care of it, yes.
24 Q. Are you going to a chiropractor now?
25 A. Not now.
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1 Q. After I have told you about the breaks and how long you
2 would be sitting, the trial was expected to last 4 to 6 months,
3 and you tell me, would it be physically difficult for you?
4 A. It is. It's difficult for me for 4 to 6 months.
5 Q. Okay.
6 I am sorry to ask you to keep going out and coming
7 back, but I would like you to go out again, okay? And I thank
8 you.
9 (Juror absent)
10 (Continued on next page)
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1 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the government has no
2 objection to excusing the juror.
3 THE COURT: All right. I'll excuse the juror. Please
4 call Juror 47 back.
5 (Juror present)
6 THE COURT: Juror 47, I'm going to excuse you. And I
7 very much appreciate your participating in the process. The
8 very fact that you have participated in the process is a public
9 service, so I very much appreciate that, and you should be
10 satisfied that you have performed a public service by
11 participating in this process.
12 You'll be excused now. You can go home. And all the
13 paperwork will be taken care of by mail. Okay.
14 JUROR: Thank you.
15 THE COURT: Good to see you.
16 JUROR: Thank you so much.
17 (Juror absent)
18 THE COURT: Juror 51.
19 (Juror present)
20 BY THE COURT:
21 Q. Juror Number 51, I have some preliminary questions, and --
22 before I get to the follow-up on some answers on the
23 questionnaire. And since you were here last, has anything
24 changed concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this
25 case or has anything occurred to you that may affect your
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1 ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
2 A. No.
3 Q. All right. It now appears that the date that the final
4 jury will be chosen in this case will be Monday, June the 21st.
5 So after today it's unlikely you will be called to come back to
6 the courtroom until June the 18th -- you'll have to call in on
7 June the 18th. Does that present any serious hardship for you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone
10 about this case or have you looked at or listened to anything
11 about the case?
12 A. No, I haven't.
13 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And that includes any conversations here at the courthouse
16 or with any other prospective jurors?
17 A. No.
18 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
19 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay. You mentioned that you have several appointments
22 concerning your job, and I understand that you have
23 responsibilities in your job.
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. In this -- jury service is also an extremely important
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1 responsibility, and the trial in this case would not start
2 until June the 21st. So in the period of time between now and
3 June the 21st, you'd be able to see that other people at your
4 agency -- that any appointments can be scheduled?
5 A. Okay, all right.
6 Q. And similarly, we don't usually sit on Fridays, so to the
7 extent that you want to continue with appointments or schedule
8 appointments for your job, you'd be able to do that on Fridays
9 or over the weekend or even --
10 A. On a Friday, we schedule for Fridays.
11 Q. Friday, okay. And also, you could do it in the evening
12 because we break at about 4:30 every day. You work at a city
13 agency, right?
14 A. Yes, city agency.
15 Q. And so with all of those conversations, is it -- you would
16 be able to sit without a serious hardship in this case?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. In the course of your work for the city, do you work
19 with the police?
20 A. No, I don't. Work with the police or --
21 Q. Work with?
22 A. Yes, on occasion.
23 Q. One of the instructions that I explained in the
24 questionnaire was that some witnesses in the case are likely to
25 be law enforcement personnel, but just because a person is a
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1 law enforcement official doesn't mean that their testimony is
2 entitled to any greater or lesser credibility than any other
3 witness.
4 Q. Do you understand that?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Will you follow that instruction?
7 A. Yes, I will.
8 Q. You explained that you had had various experiences yourself
9 with the criminal justice process; that you had been a
10 defendant in a case and that as a result -- is it related that
11 you had been accused of wrongdoing on your job?
12 A. Not on my job. Something personal.
13 Q. I'm sorry?
14 A. It was something personal, not on my job.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. But it related to this because I'm a city employee, and
17 so --
18 Q. Could you just explain to me what that was?
19 A. Okay, it was a situation between myself and my son's
20 father's ex-girlfriend. I wrote her a letter, she don't come
21 close to my home, so -- she went and filed a complaint, so it
22 was something of that nature.
23 Q. That was a criminal complaint that she filed against you?
24 A. Yes, she did.
25 Q. Was that charge resolved, the criminal complaint?
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1 A. Yes, it was.
2 Q. And were you found liable on that?
3 A. I just paid a fine because I did write her a letter.
4 Q. I'm sorry?
5 A. I paid a fine, because I did write a letter to her.
6 Q. You also indicated that in response to another question,
7 you were asked whether you had been accused of wrongdoing on a
8 job, and you said, yes, and then you explained that it was due
9 to the case with your ex-boyfriend --
10 A. Girlfriend.
11 Q. And that you have to answer to disciplinary charges that
12 are still pending?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is that a different case?
15 A. It was the same thing.
16 Q. Okay. And are those -- what kind of disciplinary charges?
17 A. That I failed to report to them about the arrest, about the
18 criminal case. But I did do that, so I'm still going through
19 the proceedings.
20 Q. You're going through the city hearing on that?
21 A. Yes. City hearing.
22 Q. All right. And so that's still pending?
23 A. Yes, still pending.
24 Q. That's a work-related --
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Now, is there -- was there any other case in which you were
2 a -- other than a minor traffic violation, where you were a
3 defendant in a case?
4 A. Just that case.
5 Q. Just this case.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. Now, that case and the disciplinary charges have
8 brought you into -- were you represented by a lawyer in
9 those --
10 A. Yes, I was.
11 Q. Were you satisfied with your lawyer?
12 A. Yes, I was.
13 Q. Those cases brought you into contact with the Court system,
14 with a judge, with one or more lawyers representing the state
15 or the people, and with your lawyer, and there was a result and
16 there were also disciplinary charges which are ongoing. Is
17 there anything about that process or your reactions to that
18 process that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
19 juror in this case?
20 A. No, I don't think it would be.
21 Q. Do you understand that if you were chosen as a juror in
22 this case, you would have to be fair and impartial to all of
23 the parties in this case?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. And would you do that?
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1 A. Yes, I would.
2 Q. Is there anything about your prior and ongoing experience
3 that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in
4 this case?
5 A. No, I don't think so.
6 Q. In response to one of the other questions, you explained
7 that conversations between a client and attorneys are supposed
8 to be confidential. And that was a response to the
9 questionnaire question which pointed out that in this case,
10 there may be evidence of conversation, recorded conversations
11 between attorneys and their clients.
12 Let me explain something. Before any evidence is
13 introduced into court, any of those conversations, the Court
14 determines admissibility of evidence. The Court decides
15 whether, as a matter of law, evidence should be excluded or not
16 excluded. Those are issues of law for the Court and not for
17 the jurors. It's for the jurors to listen to the evidence,
18 whatever the evidence is, and to make a decision in the case
19 based solely upon the evidence or the lack of evidence, and my
20 instructions on the law.
21 So is there anything about your feelings or beliefs
22 with respect to conversations between attorneys and their
23 clients that would prevent you from listening to the evidence
24 and deciding the case based solely on the evidence or the lack
25 of evidence?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. And is there anything about the possibility of such
3 conversation being admitted in evidence that would prevent you
4 from being fair and impartial in the case?
5 A. Conversations that were recorded, you're talking about?
6 Q. Yeah, what I'm saying is, if those conversations were
7 admitted in evidence and you heard conversations between
8 attorneys and clients, would that prevent you from being fair
9 and impartial?
10 A. No, it wouldn't prevent me from being fair and impartial.
11 Q. Do you have any questions?
12 A. No, I don't. I understand.
13 Q. Okay.
14 You indicated that you were somewhat knowledgeable
15 about Islam, and could you tell me what the basis for that
16 knowledge is?
17 A. Just watching like the history channel and discovery times
18 channel.
19 Q. Okay. As a result of -- you've also indicated that you had
20 read some books about Islam? Is that right?
21 A. No, I don't remember putting that.
22 Q. Okay. Right now you don't recall any books that you've
23 read about Islam?
24 A. No, I can't recall.
25 Q. Is there anything that you've seen or heard or read about
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1 Islam that has led you to be biased or prejudiced against
2 people of the Islamic faith?
3 A. No.
4 Q. In response to another question, you said that you thought
5 that since 9/11, people of Middle Eastern descent or people of
6 the Islamic faith have been treated differently, and what did
7 you mean by that?
8 A. I just felt like after the attack, they have been screening
9 them a little bit more carefully than before, because I have a
10 friend who is from Egypt, and she had told me about her
11 experiences.
12 Q. Okay. What did your friend from Egypt have to say?
13 A. She just told me that when she went to the airport or
14 different places she was singled out of a line to go to a
15 different screener than the others.
16 Q. All right. Do you personally have any biases or prejudices
17 against people from the Middle East?
18 A. No, I don't.
19 Q. And the fact that your friend has been -- has told you that
20 she's been subject to greater scrutiny at the airport, is there
21 anything about that that would affect your ability to listen to
22 the evidence in this case and be fair and impartial in this
23 case?
24 A. I don't think so, no.
25 Q. You say you don't think so. Do you have any doubt about
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1 that?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. In response to another question, you told me that
4 you knew something -- or that you had heard something about
5 Sheikh Abdel Rahman. Can you tell me, as best you can recall,
6 what you recall about hearing or reading about Sheikh Rahman?
7 A. I just recall hearing that he was behind I think the first
8 attack on the World Trade Center. I'm not sure.
9 Q. Okay. All right. Now, if you were chosen as a juror in
10 this case, you would have to listen to the evidence in this
11 case, and you would have to make a -- you would have to decide,
12 based upon the evidence or lack of evidence, and my
13 instructions on the law, whether, in this case, the government
14 has proven the charges in the indictment beyond a reasonable
15 doubt. And would you do that?
16 A. Yes, I would.
17 Q. And can you do that?
18 A. Yes, I can.
19 Q. And would you do that irrespective of anything that you
20 have heard, seen or read in the past?
21 A. Yes, I would.
22 Q. You mention that you had visited the FBI buildings for
23 training. Is that the FBI building here in Manhattan?
24 A. Yes, it is that one.
25 Q. And what kind of training did you receive?
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1 A. FBI training with ACS, regarding to child abuse cases.
2 Q. Is there anything about that training that would prevent
3 you from being fair and impartial in this case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. There were a series of questions that were asked and you
6 had answered that you would be able to accept and reply various
7 rules of law including that the defendants are presumed to be
8 innocent and that a defendant cannot be found guilty unless the
9 government proves the charges beyond a reasonable doubt at
10 trial, and the burden of proof remains with the prosecution,
11 and the jury is required to base its decision solely on the
12 evidence or lack of evidence and my instructions on the law.
13 You indicated you'd follow all of those principals of law.
14 There was then another question, and it may have been
15 poorly worded, and the gist of the question was that the case,
16 this case, may receive publicity, and it's very important that
17 the jurors in the case decide the case based solely on the
18 evidence or lack of evidence in the Court, and not on anything
19 that's published or broadcast or reported. And so I will tell
20 the jurors that they are to decide this case based solely upon
21 the facts of this case and the law, and that if they see or
22 hear anything about the case, they're simply to turn away.
23 They're not to look at that.
24 And will you follow that instruction?
25 A. Yes, I would.
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1 Q. And would following that instruction be difficult for you?
2 A. No, it wouldn't.
3 Q. Okay. If you were chosen as a juror in this case you would
4 be required to decide the case based solely on the evidence or
5 lack of evidence and in accordance with my instructions on the
6 law will you do that?
7 A. Yes, I would.
8 Q. And as you can tell from all of these questions, the
9 fundamental issue is where there is anything in your personal
10 history or life experience that would prevent you from acting
11 as a fair and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you
12 one final time whether there is anything, whether I've asked
13 you about it specifically or not, that would prevent you from
14 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay. Juror 51, I'm going to ask you to step out just for
17 a few moments, please, and I'll call you back.
18 A. Okay.
19 (Juror absent)
20 THE COURT: No questions and no challenges?
21 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, the juror mentioned in
22 answering Question 87, which involved law enforcement bias,
23 that she had an Egyptian friend who related to her an
24 experience or experiences at airport. And the reason I mention
25 that is because on Page 24 of the questionnaire, jurors are
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1 asked whether they have friends or coworkers who are from the
2 Middle East and she doesn't answer the question. She doesn't
3 respond to that with this kind of an answer.
4 So we would ask your Honor to probe the juror a bit on
5 how close the friend is and whether or not they've spoken about
6 Middle Eastern affairs and matters in the Middle East.
7 THE COURT: All right. Which question do you want?
8 MR. DEMBER: It's in the 70 series, your Honor.
9 MR. MORVILLO: 76. 76 asks if there are any close
10 friends of Middle Eastern descent, and how close this friend
11 is, what -- there's no reference to it, so if you want to probe
12 a bit on it.
13 THE COURT: All right.
14 MR. DEMBER: Would your Honor also consider asking her
15 whether she believes there's a bias? Question 87 is, Do you
16 believe there's a bias? I take it from her answer the basis
17 for her belief is what her friend says.
18 THE COURT: She said yes. She explained what the
19 basis for that belief was.
20 MR. DEMBER: Yes, she did, your Honor. And I'd just
21 ask, is there anything beyond what the friend tells her? If
22 her belief is based on anything else?
23 THE COURT: All right. I'd point out that she did on
24 the questionnaire indicate that she has worked with people of
25 Middle Eastern descent, but I'll ask her some questions about
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1 her friend, and her belief, and if the answer to those
2 questions doesn't produce anything that I think requires the
3 juror to call back, I'll tell her that she'll be called on June
4 the 18th. Okay. Call Juror 51 back, please.
5 (Juror present)
6 BY THE COURT:
7 Q. Hi.
8 A. Hi.
9 Q. Juror 51, I have a few more follow-up questions. With
10 respect to your friend from Egypt, how long has that friend
11 been here, how long has it been since the friend came from
12 Egypt?
13 A. I don't really know.
14 Q. Okay. Is that a friend from work or --
15 A. We went to college together.
16 Q. Oh. And you stay in touch with that friend?
17 A. Occasionally.
18 Q. How often?
19 A. The last time I spoke to her it was in the -- last
20 November.
21 Q. Have you ever had any discussions with your friend about
22 anything related to this case?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Is there anything about your friend or any conversations
25 you had with your friend that would affect your ability to be a
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1 fair and impartial juror in this case?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You had mentioned that -- you had told us about what your
4 friend has told you about --
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. -- the extra scrutiny that your friend had received. Is
7 your belief about what law enforcement has done with respect to
8 people of Middle Eastern descent based on anything other than
9 what your friend has told you?
10 A. No, just what she told me.
11 Q. Okay. Is there anything about that that would prevent you
12 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
13 A. No.
14 Q. All right. Juror 51, I'm going to ask -- you're still in
15 the jury selection process. But you won't be called again or
16 asked to call back until June the 18th. So you can go about
17 your regular duties until then, and please, please remember to
18 follow my continuing instructions: Please do not talk about
19 this case at all or anything to do with it. Always remember to
20 keep an open mind until you've hired all of the evidence and
21 I've instructed you on the law, you've gone to the jury room to
22 begin your deliberations, if you're actually selected to be a
23 juror. Please don't look at, listen to or read anything to do
24 with the case. If you should see something, anything, to do
25 with the case, just turn away.
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1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Because it won't affect you. Would you do that?
3 A. Yes, I will.
4 Q. It's good to see you.
5 A. Thank you.
6 Q. And you can go home.
7 A. Thanks. Thank you.
8 (Juror absent)
9 THE COURT: Juror Number 52.
10 (Juror present)
11 BY THE COURT:
12 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 52.
13 A. Good afternoon.
14 Q. It's good to see you.
15 A. You, too.
16 Q. I'm going to ask you some preliminary questions, and then
17 I'm going to follow up on some answers that you had given on
18 the questionnaire.
19 Since you were here last, has anything changed
20 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case, or
21 has anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be
22 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
23 A. None.
24 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
25 chosen in this case will be Monday, June the 21st. So after
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1 today, you won't have to call in or come back until June the
2 18th, and then you would have to call in on June the 18th.
3 Does that present any serious hardship for you?
4 A. Well, I have my daughter's graduation, June 21st.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. Other than that, no.
7 Q. So you would not be able to be mere on June the 21st.
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. What time of day is the graduation?
10 A. It's in the middle of the day, I think. I'm not exactly
11 sure of the time yet.
12 Q. Is it?
13 A. Eighth grade graduation.
14 Q. Okay. Could I -- I thank you for bringing that to my
15 attention. Could I ask you to step out for a moment?
16 (Juror absent)
17 THE COURT: I'm inclined to strike the juror. I'm
18 perfectly happy to listen to the parties.
19 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, we would oppose striking this
20 juror at this time. We're talking a single day -- granted, it
21 is the first day that your Honor has designated for statements
22 and finalizing the jury, but it's a single day. And your Honor
23 has said to other jurors that if there is a problem, personal
24 problem, we would not sit, if it couldn't be avoided. I'd ask
25 your Honor to keep questioning this juror. Continuing the
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1 inquiry.
2 THE COURT: All right. I'll question the juror. And
3 it's -- do the defendants have any view? I should point out to
4 you it is a juror as to whom no one has suggested to me that
5 there's a basis to strike the juror. And I don't know what the
6 questioning will produce with respect to the juror. Whether we
7 begin on June 21st or June the 22nd is the issue. So long as
8 the juror is in the pool, we don't begin on June the 21st.
9 MR. RUHNKE: That's what I was going to say, your
10 Honor: If we qualify the juror, we'll state to everybody else,
11 We'll now start the case June 22nd. The juror can't be here
12 June 21st. If they're in the pool, we can't go on June 21st,
13 if he's in the pool. If that's what the government wants.
14 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, it may be that the
15 graduation is midday, in the afternoon, and he could be here in
16 the morning and we could then start with openings on the
17 following day. It's unclear.
18 THE COURT: All that's actually true. And I'm not
19 going to change what I've been telling the jurors. I'm not
20 going to change in the middle from June the 21st to June the
21 22nd. The jurors have to call back on June the 18th in any
22 event, and so I'll simply inquire further of this juror. He
23 doesn't know when the graduation will be on June the 21st.
24 All right. Let's call the juror back.
25 (Juror present)
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Please be seated.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. Thank you. By the way, you don't know what time of day the
5 graduation is at this point?
6 A. No. I believe it's maybe 11:00 o'clock. It's basically
7 the middle of the day. I would say that.
8 Q. Do you know when you'd know when the time is?
9 A. Excuse me?
10 Q. Do you know when you'd find out when the time is?
11 A. I could find out this afternoon or tomorrow from my
12 daughter.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. It's basically a whole day thing though, to tell you the
15 truth.
16 Q. All right. I will keep that in mind. I've already
17 indicated to jurors that in unusual personal situations, we've
18 been able to work around that, given the fact that it will be a
19 long trial.
20 So let me go over the other questions with you. I
21 have in mind the June 21st day. Since you were here last, have
22 you spoken to anyone about this case or have you looked at or
23 listened to anything about the case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And has anyone spoken to you about the case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. And that includes any conversations here at the courthouse
3 or with any other prospective jurors?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And while you were waiting with the other prospective
6 jurors, did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
7 A. No.
8 Q. All right. You had mentioned that your father was in World
9 War II?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. What branch of service was he in?
12 A. He was in the Army.
13 Q. All right. And you also indicate that your nephew served
14 in Iraq?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. And when did your nephew serve in Iraq?
17 A. Last year. He got out in February.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. He's in the Marines.
20 Q. And are you -- when did your nephew finish up in Iraq?
21 A. In February of last year.
22 Q. February of 2003?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is there anything about your father's military service or
25 your nephew's military service that would prevent you from
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1 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
2 A. No, Sir.
3 Q. You told us in response to one question that you had never,
4 ever served on a jury before?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Have you ever served on a grand jury before?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You had mentioned that you have a brother who is a judge,
9 and let me just ask you, is your brother a state court judge or
10 a federal judge?
11 A. He's a state court judge in Virginia.
12 Q. Okay. And is he -- does he do both civilian and criminal
13 cases, do you know?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And have you -- do you talk to him frequently about his
16 work?
17 A. Once in a while, yeah, I usually talk to him at least once
18 a week on the phone.
19 Q. Okay. Is there anything about your brother's position or
20 your conversations with your brother that would lead you to be
21 biased or prejudiced towards any of the parties in this case?
22 A. No.
23 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, would you be a
24 fair and impartial juror?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. In -- you had mentioned in response to other -- to another
2 question that you had had several friends who were killed on
3 September 11th, 2001.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And this case has nothing to do with 9/11, and none of the
6 defendants were charged with anything to do with 9/11, and none
7 of the charges in the case have anything to do with 9/11.
8 Now, is there anything about fact that 9/11 occurred
9 or that you had friends who were killed in 9/11 that would
10 prevent you see from being a fair and impartial juror in this
11 case?
12 A. I guess not. You know, still has a lot of hurt. A lot of
13 people from my neighborhood were lost. I had a brother-in-law
14 that was killed, and a lot of close friends. You know.
15 Q. Does that cause you to have doubts about whether you could
16 keep that separate from this case?
17 A. Honestly? Yes.
18 Q. Okay. All that I ask from potential jurors is that they be
19 honest with me.
20 A. I hear you.
21 Q. There are no right answers to these questions.
22 A. Right.
23 Q. I have to really ask jurors what's in their minds about
24 this.
25 A. I hear you.
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1 Q. And so I appreciate your explaining your thoughts to me,
2 and that's exactly what you should do. So could you step
3 outside for a moment?
4 A. Sure.
5 (Juror absent)
6 THE COURT: I'm prepared to excuse the juror.
7 MR. DEMBER: No objection, your Honor.
8 MR. RUHNKE: No objection.
9 THE COURT: Call the juror back in, please.
10 (Juror present)
11 BY THE COURT:
12 Q. Hi. Juror 52, I'm going to excuse you, and I very much
13 appreciate your having participated in the process. I really
14 do. And you should take away from the process a personal
15 satisfaction of knowing that you have performed a public
16 service by participating in the process, and you should be
17 satisfied that you have performed a public service. So again,
18 I appreciate your participating in the process?
19 A. Okay. Thank you.
20 Q. And you can go home and all of the paperwork will be taken
21 care of by mail.
22 A. Okay, thank you, sir.
23 Q. Sure.
24 (Juror absent)
25 THE COURT: It's actually 3:41, so it's time for a
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1 10-minute break. And I'll see you all shortly.
2 (Afternoon recess)
3 (Continued on next page)
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1 THE COURT: Please be seated.
2 I had thought that 53 was not here but I may have
3 confused 53 with 41.
4 Do your notes indicate that 53 should be here with no
5 reason not to be here?
6 MR. MORVILLO: My notes indicate that he is going to
7 return tomorrow but I didn't put an explanation.
8 THE COURT: Because we have 41 out today with exams.
9 MR. MORVILLO: This was someone I thought you
10 mentioned at the beginning of the afternoon session.
11 THE COURT: But I may have confused 41 and 53. So
12 let's see, if 53 is there, let's bring in 53. If not, let's
13 bring in 54, but just let me know who it is.
14 MR. MORVILLO: I think Juror 53 has no son.
15 THE COURT: Yes, I bet you are right. Ill child
16 rather than at school. I am just reading my notes.
17 MR. MORVILLO: Actually with respect to Juror 53, Mr.
18 Ruhnke pointed out to the government at a break that she gives
19 the full name of her son in response to I think question 9 and
20 I don't think any of the parties picked up on that until today.
21 THE COURT: All right. Do the parties want to strike
22 Juror 53?
23 MR. MORVILLO: I am not sure we have a choice, your
24 Honor. That has been the practice of the parties up to this
25 point. So the government would request that that juror be
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1 struck.
2 MR. RUHNKE: I don't think we have an objection to
3 that, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Okay. We will strike Juror 53 and ask
5 that Mr. Grate inform Juror 53 that Juror 53 is stricken.
6 Now, juror 54.
7 (Juror present)
8 BY THE COURT:
9 Q. Please have a seat.
10 A. Thank you.
11 Q. Good morning or good afternoon, Juror 54.
12 A. Good afternoon.
13 Q. Thank you for being here.
14 I have some preliminary questions, but you had
15 indicated that you had a serious hardship?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And I wanted to follow up with you about that. Could you
18 explain for us why you have a serious hardship that would
19 prevent you from serving as a juror in this case?
20 A. Yes, actually I work in two different places. I am a
21 superintendent and handyman and porter at the same time. Where
22 I live I work there as a super and then I work in 6 more
23 buildings as a handyman.
24 Q. Okay. So you have two separate jobs, one is as a handyman
25 and one is as a superintendent?
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1 A. All of them with the same company.
2 Q. In the same company, all right.
3 And would you be paid for those jobs while you were
4 here as a juror?
5 A. I don't think so.
6 Q. You say that you don't think so. You work for a building
7 management company?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And do you know what their policy is with respect to paying
10 people who are on jury duty?
11 A. No, not for such a long period of time like this case.
12 Q. So you don't know?
13 A. No.
14 Q. They may pay you and they may not, you just don't know.
15 A. I just don't know.
16 Q. All right.
17 If you were not paid that would be a serious economic
18 hardship for you?
19 A. Yes, correct.
20 Q. Okay.
21 Could you step out for a moment?
22 (Juror absent)
23 THE COURT: I am prepared to have the juror check with
24 his employment, with his company, the same instructions as I
25 have given before and ask him to get back to Mr. Grate. Is
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1 that satisfactory to everyone?
2 MR. DEMBER: Yes, your Honor.
3 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, he did not answer any question
4 from 99 to 115 and says he has trouble with the English
5 language. A question would be whether is it fruitless to ask
6 him to pursue that because at the end of the day would there be
7 some difficulty that would preclude him from serving in any
8 event?
9 THE COURT: I know he didn't answer the last
10 questions. If I got to that I would be asking him those
11 questions.
12 MR. TIGAR: There is a great deal of evidence in this
13 case that will be flashed on the screens and they will be
14 reading. It's a question of his own comfort level with that.
15 Obviously he has the right to serve as a juror.
16 THE COURT: I will ask a few more questions. He tells
17 us that he understands and speaks and reads English, that he
18 does have difficulty. He has lived in the area for 29 years
19 and he is a 4-year college graduate, and he graduated from City
20 College in New York. I will certainly ask him some questions
21 about that and then then I will go from there, either ask him
22 to get back to us or --
23 MR. TIGAR: I was not suggesting embarrassing the
24 juror or anything of the kind.
25 THE COURT: I will ask a question. I appreciate your
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1 comment and I would never embarrass a juror, so I appreciate
2 your comment.
3 Let's call back Juror 54.
4 (Juror present)
5 BY THE COURT:
6 Q. Please have a seat.
7 A. Thank you.
8 Q. Juror 54, let me ask you a few other questions at the
9 outset. I am going to get back to the issue of your job and
10 whether the case is a hardship for you, but I want to ask a few
11 other questions about another subject. You had indicated that
12 English is not your native language, that Spanish is your
13 native language. And, in fact, that you have difficulty with
14 speaking but let me ask you, have you been able to understand
15 everything that I have said?
16 A. Yes, so far, yes.
17 Q. And have you understood all of the questions on the
18 questionnaire?
19 A. Most of them, yes. Most, yes.
20 Q. You didn't answer the last set of questions on the
21 questionnaire, but was there a reason for that or did you
22 overlook them? Do you know?
23 A. I thought I didn't have to answer all of them.
24 Q. Well, we can go over those questions with you.
25 There will be in this case various documents to be
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1 read. Do you read English all right?
2 A. I mean most of the English I can read but I don't know if
3 something comes out, something really difficulty that I cannot
4 read now.
5 Q. Do you use English in your job?
6 A. No.
7 Q. In the course of the trial would you have any difficulty in
8 reading documents that are in English?
9 A. Definitely.
10 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in the case, one of the
11 things that you would have to do is to talk with the other
12 jurors about what you had heard and participate in the jury
13 deliberation process, and that process would be a process that
14 English would be the common language. Would you have any
15 difficulty in that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right.
18 Could you step out for a moment.
19 (Juror absent)
20 THE COURT: I am prepared to strike the juror. Yes?
21 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the government doesn't have
22 objection to that.
23 MR. TIGAR: No objection from the defense, your Honor.
24 THE COURT: All right.
25 Call in Juror 54.
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1 (juror present)
2 BY THE COURT:
3 Q. Please have a seat.
4 All right. Juror 54, I am going to excuse you and I
5 very much appreciate your participation in the jury selection
6 process. By doing this you have performed a public service and
7 you have fulfilled your responsibilities as a potential juror
8 and so you should take away from the process the satisfaction
9 of knowing that you have performed a public service.
10 You can go home now and all of the paperwork will be
11 taken care of by mail.
12 A. Thank you very much.
13 Q. Well, we appreciate your being here.
14 A. Thanks.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 (Juror absent)
17 THE COURT: Before we call in Juror 60 --
18 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, Juror 60, page 9, question 9.
19 THE COURT: Yes, that is what I was going to point out
20 to you.
21 MR. DEMBER: We brought it to the court's attention
22 and of course she should be excused.
23 THE COURT: Okay. So we will strike 60. And you are
24 right.
25 (Juror present)
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Come in, please have a seat.
3 Juror 60, I have gone over the questionnaire and based
4 on the responses at this point in the questionnaire I am going
5 to excuse you from having to serve as a juror in this case. So
6 I very much appreciate your being here and I appreciate your
7 participation in the process and I hope that you understand
8 that by participating in the process you have performed a
9 public service for which you should take satisfaction and that
10 without jurors such as yourself who do this, we couldn't
11 proceed with the administration of justice. So I repeat what I
12 said in my preliminary instructions to you, that we very much
13 appreciate your participation in the process. And you can go
14 home now and all of the paperwork will be taken care of by
15 mail.
16 Thank you.
17 A. Thanks.
18 (Juror absent)
19 THE COURT: Next is Juror 69.
20 (Juror present)
21 BY THE COURT:
22 Q. Please have a seat.
23 Good afternoon, Juror 69.
24 Let me ask you some preliminary questions before I
25 follow up on the questionnaire. Since you were here last has
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1 anything changed concerning your ability to serve as a juror in
2 this case or has anything occurred to you that may affect your
3 ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
4 A. I don't think that I wrote in that my partner spent 8 years
5 prosecuting attorneys for misconduct working for the grievance
6 committee.
7 Q. And your an attorney yourself?
8 A. Yes, I am.
9 Q. Now, as a lawyer you are aware of the way in which the
10 process works, right?
11 A. Generally. I really don't practice.
12 Q. You work for a large company and you do legal work for the
13 company?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay.
16 I will get back to those questions, but let me just
17 ask you something about your partner, since you raised it.
18 You understand being a lawyer of the importance of a
19 fair trial, yes?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And your partner spent how many years?
22 A. 8.
23 Q. How many?
24 A. 8.
25 Q. 8 in the course of pursuing disciplinary proceedings
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1 against other lawyers?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And over what period of time was that?
4 A. That was about 15 years ago.
5 Q. Oh, all right.
6 And was that period of time, did that stop 15 years
7 ago or did it go 15 years and did it start 15 years ago?
8 A. It started 10 years ago. She left the grievance committee
9 about ten years ago.
10 Q. Okay.
11 This case of course is not a disciplinary proceeding.
12 It is a prosecution and you understand the principles of law
13 that apply in a criminal case, yes?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And among those principles is that all of the defendants
16 are presumed to be innocent and that the defendants could not
17 be found guilty of the charges that have been made unless the
18 jury concludes beyond a reasonable doubt that the government
19 has proven the charges beyond a reasonable doubt based upon the
20 evidence or lack of evidence, do you understand?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, you raised the issue of your partner being involved in
23 disciplinary proceedings.
24 Is there anything about that that leads you to believe
25 that you would not be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. One of the lawyers or, rather, one of the defendants in the
3 case is a lawyer, and that was one of the things that I
4 explained to you.
5 Is there anything about that fact that would prevent
6 you from being a fair and impartial juror in the case?
7 A. No.
8 Q. It's very important that all of the parties in this case be
9 given a fair trial; that the jurors be fair and impartial; that
10 they listen to the evidence and decide the case based solely
11 upon the evidence or the lack of evidence. If you were chosen
12 as a juror in this case, would you do that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you have any question about your ability to do that?
15 A. I have some -- I have a little bit of medical problems that
16 might -- I am not sure, I can't remember whether they were
17 brought up in the questionnaire. I am diabetic and I had
18 recent surgery which has made it difficult for me the last
19 couple of days to get here. I had both knees replaced and the
20 walking is causing me some problems. I don't know if it rises
21 to the level of making it impossible for me to get here but it
22 was more difficult than I expected.
23 Q. Okay.
24 You are right, when you filled out the questionnaire
25 you indicated, first of all, that you were diabetic and that
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1 you were taking blood pressure medication.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. With respect to your diabetes, do you take medication?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is there anything about the medication that interferes with
6 your ability to follow the proceedings at all?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Does it cause you to need more frequent rest breaks?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay.
11 People who are diabetic serve on juries all the time
12 and judges are attentive to that for several aspects. First,
13 if the juror needs a break I am perfectly happy to take a
14 break. All the juror has to do is raise the juror's hand, and
15 it's also true that if any of the jurors needed a rest break or
16 if any of the jurors felt tired or needed a break, I would take
17 a break. Also, we try to keep the proceedings on a regular
18 schedule so that if anyone needs food or anything else we can
19 see that that happens.
20 So is there anything about your diabetes that I
21 haven't touched on that would make it difficult for you to be a
22 juror?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Is there anything about your blood pressure medication that
25 interferes with your ability to follow the proceedings or
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1 understand the proceedings or anything else?
2 A. Generally, no. Sometimes I get a little tired.
3 Q. Okay.
4 As I told you, if you should get tired you can raise
5 your hand and we would take a break.
6 Now, with respect to your knees, when was your
7 operation?
8 A. In the fall.
9 Q. The fall of 2003?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And when did you go back to work?
12 A. I was out about almost 3 months.
13 Q. Okay.
14 You say you were out a month or 3 months?
15 A. 3 months.
16 Q. 3 months out.
17 A. Part-time I worked from home.
18 Q. You worked from home?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay.
21 And when did you return to work?
22 A. It was around November.
23 Q. So you have been working since November of 2003?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Full-time?
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1 A. I work from home half the time.
2 Q. I am sorry?
3 A. I work from home at least 2, 3 days a week.
4 Q. Okay.
5 Now, if you were chosen as a juror in this case you
6 would be sitting as a juror in the case from 4 days a week from
7 about 9:30 to 4:30 and, as I have already told you in the
8 preliminary instructions, your transportation would be taken
9 care of, such that you would be driven from the courthouse to a
10 convenient place so that your transportation is somewhat easier
11 than you have been encountering over the last couple of days
12 coming down here to the courthouse.
13 And with respect to your work, since we only sit until
14 4:30 and we usually don't sit on Fridays or weekends, you would
15 be able to stay in touch with your work.
16 Now, having explained all of that would serving on
17 this jury be a serious hardship for you? Would it be a serious
18 medical hardship?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay.
21 Now, when I asked the initial question which I started
22 asking as a result of your telling me about your partner, and I
23 will go through the other questions on the form, but I asked
24 whether you had any doubt in your mind whether you could be a
25 fair and impartial juror and in response to that question you
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1 told me quite rightly about your medical conditions and your
2 knees, and we have gone through those now and they are not a
3 serious hardship for you, you tell me.
4 And, again, I will go through the individual questions
5 but since I was following up on your original comments now, is
6 there anything that causes you to doubt whether you could be a
7 fair and impartial juror in this case?
8 A. One of the things that came up on the questionnaire was I
9 doubt whether I could deal with a defendant that is involved
10 with Islam at all.
11 Q. I can't hear you.
12 A. I would doubt whether I could deal fairly with somebody who
13 was of the Islamic faith. I feel very strongly about our
14 situation and I question whether I could be fair about how I
15 feel.
16 Q. All right. You are a lawyer.
17 A. I am.
18 Q. And you know the importance of this process.
19 A. I do.
20 Q. And the importance of having a fair and impartial jury.
21 You began by telling me about your partner and you
22 have also told me about the medical condition and now you have
23 told me about this issue and you know that you have doubts
24 whether you could be fair and impartial it would be unfair to
25 have you on the jury, but plainly you have to be fair and
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1 truthful in answering that question.
2 A. I believe I am. I have thought about this for several days
3 or several weeks since the original questionnaire and I really
4 haven't changed how I feel. I would be uncomfortable and as a
5 lawyer I really wouldn't want to be unfair.
6 Q. All right.
7 Can I ask you to step out please.
8 A. Yes.
9 (Juror absent)
10 THE COURT: All right. I am prepared to excuse the
11 juror.
12 MR. RUHNKE: Obviously we agree, your Honor.
13 MR. MORVILLO: No objection.
14 MR. DEMBER: No objection.
15 THE COURT: All right. Call the juror back.
16 (Juror present)
17 BY THE COURT:
18 Q. Juror 69, I will excuse you from being a juror in the case.
19 I appreciate your having participated in the process and having
20 gone through the questionnaire and having responded to my
21 questions, and you can go home now and all of the paperwork
22 will be taken care of through the mail.
23 A. Thank you very much.
24 Q. Okay.
25 (Juror absent)
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1 THE COURT: All right, we will break for the day.
2 Let me talk to Mr. Grate about the jurors for
3 tomorrow.
4 Mr. Grate is sending the jurors home and the Jurors 70
5 through 101 will be asked to return tomorrow morning. Juror 7
6 is also going to report tomorrow morning. I don't know the
7 answer on Juror 41, and that is where we are. The jurors are
8 reporting back at 9 o'clock. You all should be here by 9:15 so
9 that we can begin by 9:30. Remember not to talk to any of the
10 jurors if you pass any of them and I will see you all tomorrow
11 morning. Anything further for me at this point?
12 MR. DEMBER: I believe you mentioned the other day
13 that juror 305 is also scheduled for tomorrow. Is that juror
14 coming in tomorrow? Maybe I misunderstood, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Did I say 305 was coming in?
16 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: That was my recollection, your
17 Honor.
18 THE COURT: I have to check with Mr. Grate. Why did I
19 say 305 was coming in?
20 MR. DEMBER: She made a request she was tied up next
21 week perhaps and she wanted to come in earlier.
22 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. I will check 305.
23 MR. DEMBER: One other thing, your Honor. You have
24 asked us to provide you by Saturday at noontime questions for
25 the jurors who will be coming in for the first three days of
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1 next week.
2 Can you give us a sense of up to what juror number
3 should we be preparing questions?
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1 THE COURT: Well, how many? We've already prepared
2 questions up to 141.
3 MR. DEMBER: Actually, I think we're we've gotten up
4 to 159.
5 MR. TIGAR: That's correct.
6 THE COURT: It's hard for me to think in this case
7 that we will get past Number 159 by next Wednesday. So -- or,
8 indeed, close, at this point.
9 In an excess of caution, however, since you have some
10 time, would it be a burden on you to give me another 15, go up
11 to 175? For all I know, that may take us through the rest of
12 next week.
13 MR. DEMBER: That's fine with the government. Through
14 175, your Honor?
15 THE COURT: Correct.
16 MR. RUHNKE: Another 15 is fine.
17 MR. MORVILLO: You want those by Saturday, your Honor,
18 or Monday?
19 THE COURT: No, Saturday. Okay. Anything else for me
20 at this point?
21 MR. TIGAR: No.
22 MR. RUHNKE: No, your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Good evening all.
24 MR. TIGAR: Good evening.
25 MR. DEMBER: Thank you, your Honor.
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1 (Off the record)
2 THE COURT: By the way, when I said 15 more, that's --
3 an additional 15 would be Number 175, Juror Number 387. Just
4 so we're all on the same page -- Mr. Ruhnke? We're going
5 according to that list.
6 MR. DEMBER: Judge? I don't think so.
7 THE COURT: Hold on. Have a seat just for a moment.
8 When you say you went up to 159 --
9 MR. DEMBER: That's Juror 159, your Honor. That's the
10 juror number.
11 THE COURT: Okay. Just give me one moment.
12 No, you should -- being on the optimistic side, if we
13 went at a pace of 20 a day, a little faster than we're going
14 now, it is possible that by Wednesday we could have reached
15 another perhaps 80 numbers from where we were today. And we're
16 at Number 28 today. Juror Number 69. And so if you -- if we
17 added another -- if we went up another 80 numbers, we would be
18 at about Number 108, Juror 233. So that -- I was confused when
19 you told me that you had gotten up to 159. It was Juror
20 Number 159, Number 70 on the list. 70 on the list, Juror
21 Number 159. So you should give me questions for Numbers 71
22 through 108, which takes you to Juror Number 233. Okay? Are
23 we all now on the same page?
24 MR. MORVILLO: It's fine with the government.
25 MR. RUHNKE: My one request would be could we then
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1 have until Monday to do that? That's a fair amount of work, to
2 go through 38 questionnaires. Can we have 15 to you by
3 Saturday and the rest by Monday?
4 THE COURT: Yes. Yeah, 15 by Saturday and the rest on
5 Monday.
6 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you.
7 THE COURT: I have to keep ahead of all of this.
8 MR. RUHNKE: We understand.
9 THE COURT: Which is why I use whatever time I have.
10 Okay. Make it 20 on Saturday.
11 All right. Good afternoon, all.
12 (Adjourned to Friday, May 21, 2004, @ 9:30 a.m.)
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