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24 May 2004
Source: Digital file from Southern District Reporters Office; (212) 805-0300.
This is the transcript of Day 4 of the trial.
See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ssy-dt.htm
Lynne Stewart web site with case documents: http://www.lynnestewart.org/
550
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 ------------------------------x
2
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
3
4 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK)
4
5 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar,"
5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART,
6 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY,
6
7 Defendants.
7
8 ------------------------------x
8
9
9 New York, N.Y.
10 May 24, 2004
10 9:45 a.m.
11
11 Before:
12
12 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL
13
13 District Judge
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 APPEARANCES
1
2 DAVID N. KELLEY
2 United States Attorney for the
3 Southern District of New York
3 ROBIN BAKER
4 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO
4 ANTHONY BARKOW
5 ANDREW DEMBER
5 Assistant United States Attorneys
6
6 KENNETH A. PAUL
7 BARRY M. FALLICK
7 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar
8
8 MICHAEL TIGAR
9 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE
9 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart
10
10 DAVID STERN
11 DAVID A. RUHNKE
11 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry
12
12
13
14
15
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 (Trial resumed)
2 THE COURT: Good morning all. Please be seated.
3 We are starting a little late this morning because not
4 all of the jurors who were supposed to be here are here yet and
5 I wanted to wait at least for a sufficient group to start.
6 I am told that there are about six now. We are
7 supposed to have about 11 this morning and so I believe that
8 the first group of six is coming over.
9 There are a couple of other things.
10 One is I got the government's letter and the question
11 is whether the defendants agree with that or the defendants
12 would like to respond in writing to that. That is the May 24th
13 letter.
14 MR. RUHNKE: That is the reference to the juror, your
15 Honor?
16 MR. RUHNKE: Yes.
17 MR. RUHNKE: One, we we don't agree with it and we
18 will respond in writing if that is what your Honor wants.
19 THE COURT: Fine.
20 MR. RUHNKE: When would you want a response?
21 THE COURT: Tomorrow?
22 MR. RUHNKE: That is fine.
23 THE COURT: Next, in looking over the coming numbers I
24 think the parties agree that juror numbers 164, 184, 196, 201,
25 202, 212, 229 should be stricken.
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1 MR. DEMBER: Excuse me, your Honor, did you say 196?
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 MR. DEMBER: I don't think we have indicated that in
4 our papers, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Okay. Well, check response number 6.
6 MR. DEMBER: We don't have the questionnaire here,
7 your Honor, for 196. I just have our suggested questions.
8 THE COURT: Okay. That is fine. I won't do anything
9 with respect to 196 at this point and just ask you to check.
10 MR. DEMBER: Sure.
11 THE COURT: I didn't include, by the way, 195 in that
12 list because it wasn't crystal clear to me that the response
13 that the parties have talked about is sufficiently identifying.
14 I can ask a couple of questions to find that out but I just
15 wasn't sure on the responses to the questionnaire, which is why
16 I didn't include 195.
17 But do the parties agree with respect to 164, 184,
18 201, 202, 212 and 229? You don't have to do it right now. You
19 can go check and get back to me but if you do, then I would see
20 that those jurors are informed that they are no longer in the
21 panel.
22 Do you want to check?
23 MR. RUHNKE: I think we would like to check them, your
24 Honor.
25 THE COURT: That is perfectly fine.
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1 The first group -- yes, Mr. Tigar.
2 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, on Friday the government asked
3 for and obtained leave to file a letter with the court on
4 Wednesday following up on the evidence argument we were having.
5 THE COURT: Yes.
6 MR. TIGAR: May we file something simultaneously? In
7 reviewing my notes of the argument there are a couple of
8 things. The letter would be no more than two pages that I
9 could illuminate a little better than I was able to do, and
10 then we can reply to each other's by the Friday that your Honor
11 set if that is all right.
12 THE COURT: That is fine. I gave the government the
13 right to follow up on one specific thing, but if there is
14 anything else that the government thought that it wanted to
15 follow up in no more than two-pages it could do that too and
16 the defendants can respond to that also on Friday.
17 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, just so I am clear, I
18 assume the two-page limit applies only to new issues.
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 Anything else?
21 All right, we have our first group. Mr. Fletcher
22 advises me that it's Jurors 29, 70, 104, 106, 109, 110 and 119.
23 So we will begin by calling in Juror 29.
24 Are the parties ready?
25 MR. DEMBER: Yes, your Honor.
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1 MR. RUHNKE: A quick question.
2 With regard to Juror 29, when he was here last time he
3 made a statement to the effect that this case is all about
4 terror. These are the sheikh's men -- referring I presume to
5 Mr. Yousry and Mr. Sattar -- and there is his lawyer. I
6 request that you ask the juror whether, as he goes into this
7 process as a juror, he believes that the defendants are likely
8 guilty as charged.
9 THE COURT: I will consider that.
10 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you.
11 THE COURT: Just an observation: I received your
12 letter and I certainly appreciate your comments about the
13 thoroughness of the questioning and the voir dire and I realize
14 that there can be differences in the way in which questions are
15 asked subsequently.
16 As I told you when this issue came up on an earlier
17 occasion, I do ask open-ended questions of the jurors in a way
18 that is much broader than usual in terms of, for example,
19 anything that they have seen or heard or read to explain to me
20 and other kinds of open-ended questions. At the same time, I
21 also ask other kinds of questions to assure that the jurors are
22 fair and impartial and will decide the case based solely on the
23 evidence or lack of evidence.
24 The problem sometimes with some of the questions posed
25 by the parties is that they suggest to jurors impermissible
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1 considerations or impermissible thoughts which the jurors then
2 have to think about and overcome, which is not a good way of
3 conducting voir dire and, as I mentioned to you on an earlier
4 occasion, if I sense any doubt from any juror about the ability
5 to be fair and impartial in the case, I always follow up with
6 numerous questions, which is one reason that this process is
7 taking as long as it is, but as I also indicated to the jurors,
8 that is something which I take very seriously, the importance
9 of having a fair and impartial juror. And so I do follow up
10 extensively and that is why this process takes a long time.
11 Again, your questions suggest to the juror an answer
12 which it's wrong to suggest to the juror. I followed up
13 extensively with the juror's initial remarks to me, extensively
14 to go back over the case and the juror's attitudes and the
15 like, and I am sure that I will do it with response to lots of
16 other questions. When the juror was here last you said, well,
17 I assume that it's not done. Yes, it's not done, not close to
18 done.
19 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I don't want to prolong this
20 but asking a question as I suggested doesn't maybe so much
21 plant a thought that is already there as opposed to give the
22 juror permission to speak a thought that they might be
23 reluctant to speak. I remember a juror the other day who
24 looked right back at you after you asked a question and said
25 "honestly, your Honor," and the thought is there but jurors are
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1 reluctant to speak out loud things that make them sound like
2 they are less than fair. That is the purpose of the question.
3 THE COURT: I pursued the questioning at length to
4 assure myself that any juror who is even in the pool will be
5 able to be fair and impartial and, in fact, does not have
6 doubts about the juror's ability to be fair and impartial. As
7 I said, the length of the questionnaire and the length of the
8 individual questioning has been very long precisely to assure
9 the fairness and impartiality of the jurors.
10 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Okay. Let's bring in Juror 29.
12 (juror present)
13 BY THE COURT:
14 Q. Good morning, Juror 29.
15 A. Good morning.
16 Q. I understand that you have checked with your employer and
17 that you will be paid while you are on jury duty?
18 A. Yes, I just have to turn the check when I receive it from
19 the court over to them.
20 Q. Okay.
21 So sitting as a juror in this case would not be an
22 economic hardship for you?
23 A. No, as long as I get paid I am fine.
24 Q. Okay.
25 And you also told us that you had -- that you
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1 regularly brought launch to your wife and that you visited your
2 mother and you told us about the possibility of other members
3 of your family assisting with that. If you were chosen as a
4 juror in this case, would that present any hardships for you in
5 terms of your care for your wife or mother?
6 A. I spoke to my two brothers. They will take care of my mom
7 and my sister-in-law and my wife's girlfriend, if they pitch
8 in.
9 Q. With respect to your wife?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay.
12 So sitting on the jury would not be a hardship for you
13 in terms of your relationships with your family?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Since you were here last has anything changed concerning
16 your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has anything
17 happened to you that may affect your ability to be fair and
18 impartial in the case?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You mentioned that you have spoken to members of your
21 family about taking care of your wife and your mother. Have
22 you told them anything about this case?
23 A. Absolutely not.
24 Q. All right. While you were waiting with the other
25 prospective jurors did you or anyone you overheard discuss this
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1 case?
2 A. No.
3 Q. When you had answered the question with respect to your
4 marital status, you had indicated that you were single but
5 living with a nonmarital partner.
6 A. She is my wife. We have been together 24 years.
7 Q. Okay.
8 Does your son live with you?
9 A. No, my son is married and he lives -- works in Washington
10 and lives in Virginia.
11 Q. Okay.
12 You said that he is a consultant to the government.
13 What sort of work does he do?
14 A. He doesn't tell me. I don't get into it with him.
15 Q. Okay.
16 Do you know, does he work -- is his employer the
17 government or is he privately employed?
18 A. I think he works for an outside firm that consults with the
19 government.
20 Q. Okay.
21 Can you tell me -- you mentioned that your son has two
22 Masters.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know what they are in?
25 A. No. I don't remember.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 You mentioned that your son was in the Army for a long
3 period of time. He is no longer in the Army?
4 A. No, he got hurt in Panama. He hurt his ankle. It got
5 messed up in Panama and he couldn't -- my son was in the
6 Special Forces, as I put down, and he couldn't continue with
7 the Special Forces training. He could have stayed in the
8 regular Army but with him it's Special Forces or nothing.
9 Q. And is there anything about your son's military service
10 that would prevent you from about being a fair and impartial
11 juror in this case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You mentioned that you have been on two juries, one civil
14 and one criminal, and both were in the state court in the
15 Bronx?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And the civil case was a woman who fell in the subway. Did
18 that case reach a verdict?
19 A. No, they settled out of court.
20 Q. Okay.
21 And the criminal case, was there a verdict in that
22 case?
23 A. I was the alternate. I didn't go into the deliberations.
24 I heard the whole trial but when they went into deliberations
25 they released me.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 And that was a case about --
3 A. A narcotics case.
4 Q. Narcotics.
5 And you have not served on a grand jury?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Is there anything about your experience with serving as --
8 by the way, in the civil case, did the case start and settle
9 during trial?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And is there anything about your experience with those
12 cases in which you were sitting as a juror or an alternate,
13 anything about those cases that would prevent you from being a
14 fair and impartial juror in this case? And I refer to the
15 entire experience, your experience with the court, the lawyers,
16 the process, anything about that that would prevent you from
17 being fair and impartial in this case?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You mentioned that you or someone close to you has been the
20 victim of a serious crime. Can you tell me what that was?
21 A. The victim -- I don't remember putting that down.
22 Q. One question said have you or anyone close to you ever been
23 the victim of a serious crime whether or not reported, and you
24 said yes referring to yourself.
25 A. Oh, I got mugged and that was -- I got mugged. They took
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1 my money. It was in Manhattan. I left a bar about 7 o'clock
2 and I was walking on 8th Avenue. They mugged me and then I
3 told the police car and I couldn't really identify the people
4 because they grabbed me from behind and the police put me on
5 the subway and that was what happened.
6 Q. Okay.
7 Was anyone prosecuted in that case?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You said that you had brought criminal charges against
10 someone, you yourself. Did you bring criminal charges in
11 connection with that case?
12 A. No, I didn't bring criminal charges. Oh, yes, when I was
13 15 I got stabbed in a fight and my father, he brought charges
14 against the kid that stabbed me. That was that, yes.
15 Q. Okay.
16 Do you know what happened in that case?
17 A. Yes, the kid went to juvenile -- Spofford. He went up to
18 Spofford.
19 Q. Okay.
20 And you said that someone in your family had been
21 sued. Do you recall that?
22 A. Sued? I know my nephew got in trouble with the Post Office
23 and my brother didn't really get into it with me but he had a
24 big problem. He had to get lawyers with the Post Office. It
25 was solved. My nephew didn't go to jail or nothing, but it was
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1 something to do with money in the Post Office in the cash
2 drawer, something to that effect.
3 Q. Okay.
4 When was that, do you recall?
5 A. Oh, that was quite -- that is going back maybe a good ten,
6 11 years ago.
7 Q. By the way, how long was it since you were mugged in
8 Manhattan?
9 A. Oh, that is a long time. That is about over 20 years.
10 Q. And you mentioned that you had been sued by someone.
11 A. Oh, yes, Citibank. They garnisheed me one time.
12 Q. And what happened to that?
13 A. They garnisheed my salary. That was the outcome of that.
14 Q. Were you represented by a lawyer in that case?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Have you or anyone close to you ever been in prison?
17 A. Well, some friends in the street. They got arrested when
18 we growing up, you know, in our teens. Friends of mine got
19 arrested for different things -- narcotics, burglary. They
20 went to jail and they came out.
21 Q. Did you ever visit any of them in jail?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Now, you have had all of these experiences from being a
24 victim to being sued, to having people who have gotten in
25 trouble with the law, a nephew, and bringing charges. Is there
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1 anything about any of those experiences that would prevent you
2 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices towards the government
5 or the police or defendants or defense counsel?
6 A. No, I don't know them, no. I don't deal with the police or
7 nobody. I just stay by myself.
8 Q. Okay.
9 You mentioned that your -- by the way, do you go into
10 this case with any bias or prejudice towards the government or
11 any of the defendants or any of the lawyers in the case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You mentioned that your son was in Iraq for a period of
14 time. He is now back from Iraq?
15 A. Yes, he is back. He came back in the beginning of March.
16 Q. All right.
17 Anything about that that would prevent you from being
18 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You mentioned that you are somewhat knowledgeable about the
21 practices of Islam and that you gained that knowledge from TV
22 documentaries?
23 A. Yes, and I also have -- on my job I have a couple of Black
24 Muslims and, you know, they are civilized on the job. Whatever
25 we believe when they leave we get along and we work. And we
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1 share some information, you know, we talk.
2 Q. All right.
3 Do you recall what TV documentaries you have seen?
4 A. It was on the History Channel. It was a complete history
5 of Mohammed from the beginning all the way up to now almost.
6 It went from the beginning of Islam to the present.
7 Q. And do you talk about Islam with any of your co-workers who
8 are Muslim?
9 A. Just -- the guys I work with, we talk about everything,
10 what is in the newspaper today, the different things that
11 happen. You know, it just depends on what we are talking about
12 for that day. I have two Chinese co-workers and if something
13 happened in China we will talk about China and if I don't agree
14 with them we will get into sort of a debate. But there is no
15 animosity because we have been working together for so many
16 years, working together for like 16 years.
17 Q. Are you talking about your --
18 A. My co-workers. I work in this one building and there are 4
19 men plus myself and one fellow I have been working with 16, the
20 others 5, 9, working quite a few years together, you know, as a
21 group. So we argue. We disagree on a lot of things in the
22 news and whatever. Everybody has their own opinion. But there
23 is no animosity about different religions or creed, color or
24 race or whatever.
25 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices against anyone of
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1 Mid-Eastern descent or anyone of the Islamic faith?
2 A. Bin Laden. I would like to get my hands on his throat.
3 Q. All right. If there was anything that came out in the
4 course of the trial relating to Bin Laden, would that prevent
5 you from being fair and impartial in the case?
6 A. No, I don't think so.
7 Q. Why is that right if you have such an animosity?
8 A. Well, I don't like Bin Laden, period. He is a murderer, a
9 terrorist and should be brought to justice.
10 Q. If there were any evidence in the case which touched on
11 him, would that affect your impartiality?
12 A. That is a good question. It would depend on what it was, I
13 guess. If it was just a minor thing, that just his name was
14 brought in for a minor thing, but I guess I would go with the
15 flow on that.
16 Q. Tell me what you recall seeing or hearing about the blind
17 Sheikh Abdel Rahman.
18 A. You know, I didn't really get into the full details of the
19 blind sheikh except that he was on trial for terrorist
20 activities and it's just I scan through the newspapers. I
21 really didn't get into the actual what he did or what he didn't
22 do. I didn't really go that far with the blind sheikh.
23 Q. Okay.
24 Now, as you heard from my initial description of the
25 case, there will be various sorts of allegations with respect
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1 to the blind sheikh in this case and the charges in this case
2 involve alleged connections with the blind sheikh.
3 Is there anything about that that would prevent you
4 from being fair and impartial in this case?
5 A. No.
6 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would have
7 to listen to this case and decide this case based solely on the
8 evidence or lack of evidence in this case. You would have to
9 listen to what the evidence was or the lack of evidence. Could
10 you do that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you have any doubts about your ability to do that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You mentioned that you had visited the FBI building in
15 lower Manhattan. What was the purpose of that visit?
16 A. Oh, we were just walking around, you know, just for
17 sightseeing. It wasn't no business with the FBI at all.
18 Q. Okay.
19 Did you go into the building?
20 A. No, we just went on the outside and we went into the lobby
21 and they said what are you doing here and we said we are just
22 looking around, you can't do that, and we walked out. There
23 was about four of us but we went from Chinatown and we just
24 kept walking downtown, you know.
25 Q. You mentioned that you had been called for jury duty
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1 because you indicated that you had been to the United States
2 Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York.
3 A. That was so many years ago. I forget now.
4 Q. Did you ever serve on a jury?
5 A. No. I never went through -- you know, that was so many
6 years ago, I forget. I think I was like 19 years old or 20
7 years old.
8 Q. Okay.
9 You had raised a question last time about the
10 allegations in this case and the fact that the allegations were
11 related to the allegations related to terrorism, and is there
12 anything about that that would prevent you from being a fair
13 and impartial juror in this case?
14 A. No, I would have to listen to the evidence in this case
15 before I could make a judgment.
16 Q. Is there anything about the allegations as I have explained
17 them to you that leads you to be biased or prejudiced in favor
18 of the government or the defendants?
19 A. No.
20 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would be
21 required to decide the case based solely on the evidence or
22 lack of evidence and my instructions on the law.
23 Will you do that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you do that?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you have any doubts about that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. As you can tell from all of these questions, the
5 fundamental issue is whether there is anything in your personal
6 history or life experience, whether I have asked you about it
7 specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a fair
8 and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one final
9 time whether there is anything, whether I have asked you about
10 it specifically or not, that would prevent you from we being a
11 fair and impartial juror in this case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Could you step out for a moment.
14 (Juror absent)
15 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we would move to strike the
16 juror for cause. I listened carefully to his answers and I
17 recognize he told your Honor unequivocally and firmly that he
18 could be fair and had no bias or prejudices. The one issue
19 that concerns us a lot is his very strong reaction to the name
20 Bin Laden and what would happen if the name Bin Laden were to
21 work its way into the case.
22 Your Honor has the pending in limine motions but if
23 the government's in limine applications are granted, he will
24 hear essentially Osama Bin Laden calling for the release and
25 freedom of Sheikh Rahman and he will divine the fact that even
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1 after September 11 his lawyer continued to represent him, the
2 interpreters continued to interpret, and I don't think we can
3 trust this juror, because of his strong reaction, to be able to
4 carry through on what he obviously wants to do, which is to be
5 a fair juror. When I say I don't trust the juror, I don't
6 think he is misleading us but I think because of the strength
7 of his reaction that despite his best efforts I don't think he
8 could be fair and impartial, so we move to strike him for
9 cause.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 The government?
12 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, we don't think that a strike
13 for cause is appropriate at this point. The juror has
14 indicated in the last few questions that he could be fair. I
15 imagine frankly, your Honor, if we asked every juror who walked
16 into the courtroom what they thought of Mr. Bin Laden we
17 probably would get a very similar reaction. But that fact
18 alone obviously, the fact he doesn't like the person, is very
19 different from whether or not he can be fair and impartial in
20 this case.
21 In the last few questions you asked, and I believe you
22 were probing him on his ability to be fair in this case and he
23 indicated he certainly could be. He was unequivocal about that
24 fact, so I don't think a strike for cause at this point is
25 appropriate.
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1 THE COURT: All right.
2 I will actually follow up with another couple of
3 questions if you want, Mr. Ruhnke, for him on that subject. I
4 asked him about it and he thought about it and he said, in
5 essence, that he would have to listen to the evidence or lack
6 of evidence on that issue; that he would have to go with the
7 flow. And he is a very thoughtful and candid and
8 straightforward person who has had an awful lot of life
9 experience with all of the processes of the system and says
10 very forthrightly that he would be fair. But I will follow up
11 with those questions if you want me to.
12 MR. RUHNKE: I would, your Honor, thank you.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 Let's call the juror.
15 MR. RUHNKE: Before the juror comes in it occurs to me
16 also that he had a very strong reaction to the report of the
17 beheading of the American businessman. He reported last time
18 the first thing he volunteered as a juror was that incident,
19 that "that incident turned me down." Those were his words.
20 But whether he has discussed that with any of his friends in
21 the garage or in the Muslim community, and whether he can
22 separate that from this case.
23 THE COURT: Okay. I have already told him that has
24 nothing to do with this case but if you want me to raise it
25 with him again I shall.
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1 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, I do, thank you.
2 (Juror present)
3 BY THE COURT:
4 Q. Juror 29, thank you. Just a few follow-up questions.
5 When we were here last you had mentioned the incident
6 in Iraq with respect to the beheading -- and I went over that
7 with you -- and have you discussed that incident with others?
8 A. No. Just my son and I were talking about it, you know,
9 what happened over there, and then we started to talk about the
10 incident in the prisons that came to light and then the
11 beheading. We were just -- my son and I were talking about it.
12 (Continued on next page)
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1 (Juror 29)
2 BY THE COURT:
3 Q. Okay. Can you tell me anything else about what you
4 discussed about that?
5 A. Well, we discussed that the media made too much of this
6 because when the -- they capture an American soldier, before
7 this incident ever came to light, they're not serving him a
8 steak dinner and asking him how he likes it. They're beating
9 the hell out of American soldiers. They're smacking them;
10 they're abusing them. And then when they get POW'ed and they
11 get their butt beat, the same as they did to the American
12 soldiers, the news media's right away, Oh, they're cruel and
13 inhuman treatment and all this other garbage.
14 And that's my opinion on that.
15 Q. Okay. Ask there are allegations with respect to terrorism
16 in this case, would your feeling about that interfere with your
17 ability to be fair and impartial?
18 A. No, I don't think so. I'd have to listen to the evidence
19 in the case. To form any kind of opinion what's going on. I
20 don't know -- I don't know what this case is all about, to tell
21 you the truth.
22 Q. Okay. You mentioned that you had a -- some of your
23 thoughts with respect to Bin Laden. There may be evidence in
24 the case about in Bin Laden in this case, and the question is,
25 would that -- would your thoughts, feelings about that make it
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1 difficult for you to be fair and impartial?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And why is that?
4 A. Well, I don't know what these men are on trial for.
5 Q. Right.
6 A. And so I'd have to listen to the evidence to find out what
7 it's all about.
8 Q. If there were a connection with Bin Laden, would that make
9 it -- would that interfere with your ability to assess the
10 evidence or lack of evidence?
11 A. No. I have to listen to the evidence.
12 Q. Okay, could you step out a moment?
13 (Juror absent)
14 THE COURT: I'm prepared to strike the juror. And I'm
15 prepared to make detailed findings if you want. But it is
16 clear to me that there's a fair challenge cause. I have to
17 make credibility findings. If you want me to make the
18 credibility findings, I'll make the credibility findings.
19 It's -- so you tell me.
20 MR. DEMBER: May I have a moment, your Honor?
21 THE COURT: I'm sorry?
22 MR. DEMBER: May I have a moment?
23 THE COURT: Sure.
24 (Off the record)
25 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, we will not ask your Honor to
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1 make credibility findings on the record.
2 THE COURT: I mean, it is plain that there's a fair
3 challenge for cause based upon all of his answers and the
4 degree of his feeling in connection, beliefs, some of which
5 come out with greater specificity with response to some
6 questions, so that assessing all of the answers, it's clear to
7 me that he could not be a fair and impartial juror, despite his
8 best efforts. And trying is not good enough, as I said last
9 week.
10 All right. Call 29 back.
11 (Juror present)
12 BY THE COURT:
13 Q. Hi.
14 A. Hello.
15 Q. Juror 29, I'm going to excuse you. I want to express my
16 appreciation to you for having participated in the process.
17 And I also want to explain to you that what you have done is to
18 perform a public service by participating in the process. And
19 I realize that you've actually gone the extra length by
20 checking out some of your employer and making other
21 arrangements, so I really appreciate all of that, and hope that
22 you take away from this experience the personal satisfaction of
23 knowing that you've performed a public service, because without
24 people such as you who participate in the process, this process
25 of jury selection and the administration of justice simply
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1 couldn't exist.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. Again, I appreciate it, and you're welcome to go home.
4 A. All right, fine. I need a paper from the Court for today,
5 because I don't get paid unless I come with a paper.
6 Q. Yes, all right. So you should go across the street. If
7 you go across the street back to 500 Pearl and check in with
8 the jury administrator --
9 A. Room 160, is it?
10 Q. Correct.
11 A. So I'm finished with jury duty?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Okay. Thank you very much, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 (Juror absent)
16 THE COURT: All right. Juror Number 70.
17 (Juror present)
18 BY THE COURT:
19 Q. Good morning, Juror Number 70. Let me ask you some
20 preliminary questions. Since you were here last, has anything
21 changed concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this
22 case or has anything occurred to you that may affect your
23 ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And it now appears that the date that the final jury will
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1 be chosen will be Monday, June 21st. So after today, it is
2 unlikely that you'll be called back or asked to call in until
3 June the 18th. Does that pose any serious hardship for you?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about
6 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
7 the case?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Could you just keep your voice up and talk into the
10 microphone?
11 A. Oh. No.
12 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case? And that includes
13 any conversations here at the courthouse or with other
14 prospective jurors?
15 A. No.
16 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
17 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You indicated that this case will not present any serious
20 hardship for you, right?
21 A. Well, I was speaking with my employer because I'm a temp at
22 an agency, and through the agency I would have no problem, but
23 the site that I'm in now might have a problem with that.
24 Q. I'm sorry, could you --
25 A. Like I was saying, my employer wouldn't have a problem with
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1 it, but the site that I'm in now might have a problem with it,
2 so...
3 Q. Okay. But you're employed full-time by a law firm?
4 A. Through an agency at a law firm, now, yes.
5 Q. Okay. Between the law firm and the agency, would you --
6 I'm sure the law firm would not hold it against you that you
7 were on jury duty, I mean, it's the nature of law firms.
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. And I did not sure what your concern is.
10 A. The only concern I have now is because being that the
11 length of the trial might go long, I have a wife that's
12 expecting, and I don't know if I could go without, you know,
13 receiving money like that every week, so that would be the only
14 problem I have with that.
15 Q. Okay. But would your agency continue to pay you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Would the law firm continue to pay you?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Could you just -- you had indicated that the case would not
20 present any serious economic hardship for you, though?
21 A. From what I understood, that they would have paid me for
22 the jury duty. When I spoke with them, they said they would
23 only pay the first two days. Then after that the city picks up
24 the tab.
25 Q. After that, what?
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1 A. That the city pays for it -- or....
2 Q. Who told you that?
3 A. Well, because I work for an agency called Manpower, and
4 they said that they'd pay the first two days that I'm in jury
5 duty, but then after that, I guess, you know, how the city pays
6 for it or whatever, something like that.
7 Q. The government doesn't pay -- well, the government pays
8 $40, and after a period of time, $50 a day. So -- and that
9 would be paid throughout your jury service. So would that be
10 sufficient such that the jury service would not be a serious
11 economic hardship for you?
12 A. In the beginning, I didn't think it would. But I believe
13 now that it probably would be.
14 Q. Why is that?
15 A. Like I said, we're expecting another child in addition to
16 our family, and my wife's giving birth in August. So between
17 now, you know, to August, I don't know, you know, if $50 a day
18 would be enough right now.
19 Q. Without asking you how much you earn from your temporary
20 work, is it reasonably more than that so that it's a big loss
21 in income for you?
22 A. Pretty much so, yes.
23 Q. I'm sorry?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What's the arrangement between your -- with the law firm?
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1 Would the law firm -- you get paid by your temporary agency?
2 A. Through the agency.
3 Q. Through the agency. Not the law firm directly?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. Could you step out for a moment?
6 (Juror absent)
7 MR. RUHNKE: Sounds like a legitimate hardship, your
8 Honor.
9 MR. MORVILLO: The government agrees, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: All right. Bring Juror 70 back in.
11 (Juror present)
12 BY THE COURT:
13 Q. Hi, Juror 70. We'll excuse you from jury service. I
14 appreciate your participation in the process.
15 A. Thank you.
16 Q. And all of your paperwork will be taken care of by mail.
17 A. Thank you.
18 (Juror absent)
19 THE COURT: Juror 104.
20 (Juror present)
21 BY THE COURT:
22 Q. Hi.
23 A. Hi.
24 Q. Juror 104, good morning.
25 A. Good morning.
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1 Q. Since you were here last, has anything changed concerning
2 your ability to serve as a juror in this case, or has anything
3 occurred to you that may affect your ability to be here as a
4 juror in this case?
5 A. My brother is in jail right now, as of May 17th.
6 Q. Okay. And could you just tell me what your -- why it is
7 that your brother's in jail?
8 A. Endangerment of a minor?
9 Q. Okay. And that's here in New York in the state court
10 system?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. This case has nothing to do with that.
13 A. I understand.
14 Q. The parties in this case are different; the charges are
15 different. It's in federal court, not state court. No
16 connection between that case and this case.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. Is there -- and I appreciate your bringing that to my
19 attention as something that's occurred since last time.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is there anything about that case that would prevent you
22 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Okay. It now appears that the date that the final jury
25 will be chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So
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1 after today, it's unlikely you'll have to call in again or come
2 back -- actually call in before June the 18th. Does that
3 present any serious hardship for you?
4 A. My girls are graduating -- one the 18th, one the 21st.
5 Q. I'm sorry?
6 A. My daughters are going to graduate, one is the 18th, one is
7 the 21st of June.
8 Q. Okay. So -- June 18th is not a problem. You just have to
9 call in on June the 18th.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. Our case would otherwise begin with the next selection on
12 June the 21st, and you say you have a commitment on June the
13 21st?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What time of day is that?
16 A. 9:15 in the morning.
17 Q. All right. And when would you be finished with that?
18 A. Around 12:00 noon.
19 Q. About noon.
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. Okay. We may be able to work with that.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. So I appreciate you bringing that to my attention. Since
24 you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about the case or
25 have you looked at or listened to anything about the case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And that includes any conversations here at the courthouse
5 or with any other prospective jurors?
6 A. No.
7 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
8 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You indicated that serving on the jury would not be a
11 serious hardship for you. Is that right?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. You've indicated that there may be some economic hardship.
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Could you explain that to me?
16 A. We have two incomes, and if I'm not there, I don't get paid
17 from work. And then there will be only one income, and we have
18 three kids.
19 Q. Okay. But that, the loss of that income, in your family,
20 would not be a serious economic hardship for you? I mean, you
21 would be paid $40 a day, and then after a period of time, that
22 goes up to $50 a day for being here, plus transportation costs.
23 So you would have that. Would the difference then between that
24 and what you would otherwise make, that would not be a serious
25 economic hardship for you?
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1 A. It might.
2 Q. Are you sure you wouldn't get paid?
3 A. I don't get paid at work, no.
4 Q. Even though you would be on jury duty?
5 A. Even though. I only get paid one day.
6 Q. I'm not sure I follow you. You get -- what do you mean,
7 you only get paid one day?
8 A. From my work, I only get paid one day for jury duty.
9 Q. Ah. You have to tell me, please, based upon your spouse's
10 income and income you would get from being a juror, whether the
11 loss of the additional, the difference between what you would
12 get adds a juror and what you'd otherwise get from your job,
13 whether that would be a serious economic hardship for you and
14 your family?
15 A. Yes, I think it will be.
16 Q. Because initially, you had told me that it would not be a
17 serious hardship.
18 A. Yes, but -- well, I think it will, being that we have a
19 baby. I deal with most of the bills in the house.
20 Q. When you filled out the form, you indicated that you didn't
21 know whether you would be paid your salary while you serve on
22 jury duty.
23 A. No, I find that out afterwards.
24 Q. You checked?
25 A. Yes, I did.
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1 Q. Okay. Can you step out for a moment?
2 A. Sure.
3 (Juror absent)
4 MR. RUHNKE: No objection to dismissing the juror.
5 MR. MORVILLO: No objection.
6 THE COURT: All right. Bring in Juror 104.
7 (Juror present)
8 BY THE COURT:
9 Q. Hi.
10 A. Hi.
11 Q. Juror 104, we'll excuse you. And I appreciate your coming
12 in today.
13 A. Thank you very much.
14 Q. Your paperwork will be taken care of by mail.
15 A. Thank you.
16 Q. Okay? Great.
17 (Juror absent)
18 THE COURT: Juror 106.
19 (Juror present)
20 BY THE COURT:
21 Q. Good morning, Juror 106.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. Since you were here last, has anything changed concerning
24 your ability to serve as a juror or has anything occurred to
25 you that may affect your ability to be a fair and impartial
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1 juror in this case?
2 A. No, your Honor.
3 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
4 chosen will be Monday, June 21st. So after today, you won't
5 have to call back in until June the 18th. Does that present
6 any serious hardship for you?
7 A. No, Sir.
8 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about
9 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
10 the case?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And has anyone spoken to you about the case? And that
13 includes anyone here at the courthouse or any other prospective
14 jurors?
15 A. No.
16 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
17 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
18 A. We discussed how long it would be.
19 Q. Right. Anything about the --
20 A. No, nothing about the case itself.
21 Q. About the substance of the case at all?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay. Now, you indicated on the questionnaire that you're
24 a professor.
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And that you wouldn't be paid your salary while the case
2 was going on?
3 A. That's correct. I'm an adjunct professor of political
4 philosophy, so I'm only paid on a contract --
5 Q. Could you keep your voice up, please?
6 A. I'm only paid on a contract basis, so my contract is given
7 to me in August. If I'm on the case, I just won't get a
8 contract for the year, so I won't be paid.
9 Q. This would be the fall semester, essentially?
10 A. Yes, I would not be paid for the entire fall semester. So
11 I'd be unable to teach four classes, so that would be four
12 classes worth of pay that I would not receive.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. But it wouldn't affect your ability to continue to be a
16 professor, I mean, for example, to pick up with the spring
17 semester?
18 A. They would have to hire somebody in my place, so I would
19 then be in competition with whomever they had already hired.
20 So I would like to think that I would be a decent candidate to
21 beat that person out, but there's no guarantee that I would
22 ever be hired back at my university.
23 Q. But -- of course, they always have those options in any
24 event?
25 A. Yes, that is correct. At any given time they could decide
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1 not to hire me back.
2 Q. Is it fair that you had said on your questionnaire that
3 this -- serving on this jury would not be a serious hardship
4 for you?
5 A. No, I don't think it would be a serious hardship. I think
6 I could still find work as a professor when the case was over.
7 Obviously, I'd prefer to continue working at the institution I
8 am working, so it would be a hardship. I don't expect it would
9 mean that I could never work in this town again.
10 Q. And it would not be a serious economic hardship for you,
11 not to work on the one semester?
12 A. That's a little dicier. I would just receive no pay at
13 all.
14 Q. I'm sorry? Keep your voice up, please.
15 A. That's a little dicier. I would receive no pay this
16 semester. My husband works. I think that we could live on his
17 salary. Obviously, I would rather not.
18 Q. But, you know, jurors are -- come from a cross-section of
19 the community, including people with important
20 responsibilities, and it's important to all the parties in the
21 case -- to the government, to the defendants -- to have people
22 to come from a cross-section of the community, including those
23 with responsibilities.
24 So -- your husband has a very good job. You have a
25 very advanced education. What this case comes down to is not
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1 working for you as an adjunct professor for one semester. So
2 that would not be a serious hardship for you.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay. And let me just ask you one other question on that:
5 If you were chosen as a juror in this case, would you be fair
6 and impartial?
7 A. Yes, I would try my best to be, yes.
8 Q. And would anything about the length of the trial or the
9 fact that you were sitting and not working as an adjunct
10 professor interfere with your ability to be fair and impartial,
11 to give all the parties in this case your undivided attention
12 and your fair and impartial consideration?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. I didn't think it would, but I just wanted to make
15 sure.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. Now, you indicate that your husband is an attorney who
18 practices tax law; is that right?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And can you tell me, does he work for a large law firm?
21 A. Am I supposed to name them --
22 Q. No, don't tell me the name of the law firm or how large
23 they are. He's not a sole practitioner, right?
24 A. No, he works at a large firm.
25 Q. He works at a law firm. Okay. And you indicated that your
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1 father was in the Army and he served in Vietnam.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is there anything about that that would prevent you from
4 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
5 A. I don't think so.
6 Q. When you say you don't think so, do you have any reason to
7 doubt that?
8 A. I know my father didn't like being in Vietnam very much,
9 but I wasn't there, so I don't think it affects me personally.
10 Q. Okay. You indicated that you were -- you served in one
11 prior jury in a criminal case in the Bronx. And -- I'm sorry,
12 and you said -- no, it was a grand jury.
13 A. Right, a grand jury in the Bronx for about a month.
14 Q. Okay. And so you've never been on a trial jury?
15 A. No.
16 Q. With respect to the grand jury, do you understand that the
17 function of the grand jury is to consider whether indictments
18 should be returned, and the standard for returning indictments
19 is very different from the standard that applies at a trial?
20 A. Yes, I understand that.
21 Q. Okay. Is there anything about your experience being on the
22 grand jury that would prevent you from being a fair and
23 impartial juror in this case?
24 A. No, it was a perfectly fine experience.
25 Q. I'm sorry?
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1 A. It was a fine experience.
2 Q. Okay. You indicated that as a professor of political
3 science, you have lots of contact with people interested in
4 lobbying. Is there anything about that that would prevent you
5 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
6 A. I don't think so, no.
7 Q. Okay. And on a couple of questions -- you've never gone
8 through the process of jury selection before?
9 A. No, I haven't. I was too detailed?
10 Q. No, no, not at all. Not at all. It's just that, when you
11 say "I don't think so" -- people express themselves in
12 different ways, and some people say, I don't believe so, I
13 don't think so, and when you answer my questions, you answer
14 with some confidence, "I don't think so". And when you say you
15 don't think so, does that mean, no?
16 A. Yes. I'm a professor of political philosophy, so I guess
17 that's the way we tend to express ourselves, in levels of
18 uncertainty. But yes, when I say, I don't think so, I mean,
19 No; no problem.
20 Q. If you have any doubts about any of your questions, just
21 tell me.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. All right? Now, you mention that you have a friend who
24 works for the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence?
25 A. Yes, I do.
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1 Q. And is there anything about that that would prevent you
2 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You mentioned that you have a close friend -- oh, by the
5 way, you mentioned that you use the Internet. Do you use the
6 Internet for news?
7 A. Yeah, I read the news, I watch CNN, yeah, I use the
8 Internet daily.
9 Q. What news do you watch on the Internet? What sources do
10 you use on the Internet for news?
11 A. I have an AOL connection, so the news, basic news, comes up
12 every time I turn on the computer. I read salon.com -- I'm
13 trying to think what else. Those would be the basics.
14 Q. Okay. You mentioned you had a close friend who was a
15 victim of crime. Can you tell me who that was -- again, don't
16 mention any names. Just how close a friend and what the nature
17 of the crime was?
18 A. A friend whose wedding I attended, so that's how close a
19 friend. Lived in my neighborhood. I should describe the --
20 Q. No. Pretty close friend.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What was the nature of the crime against that person?
23 A. He was mugged, mugged and beaten up, and had his wallet
24 stolen.
25 Q. And were any charges brought against the person who did
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1 that?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Was the person ever found?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You mention that your brother sued someone over a traffic
6 accident?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did that case ever go to trial?
9 A. Nope.
10 Q. You mention that you had been -- that you and your husband
11 were sued over a traffic accident. Did that case ever go to
12 trial?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And you had two friends who were mugged and ended up in a
15 hospital. Was there a lawsuit over that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Or was that -- one of the people you had told me before who
18 was mugged?
19 A. Yes, there were two people that I know who have been
20 mugged. The first was one I just told you about. The second
21 was a friend of mine in graduate school.
22 Q. Okay. And were charges brought in either of those cases?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And you have a friend from high school who went to prison
25 for a few months. How long ago was that?
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1 A. How long ago was I in high school. 1985.
2 Q. And did you visit him?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Now, with respect to all of these incidents and all of your
5 experiences with the police and the courts and the government,
6 the state, and the lawyers involved, is there anything in any
7 of those experiences that would prevent you from being a fair
8 and impartial juror in this case?
9 A. I don't think so -- no.
10 Q. You mention that you were a member of the ACLU. Is there
11 anything about that that would prevent you from being a fair
12 and impartial juror in this case?
13 A. I believe that the ACLU has a position on this case, or
14 certain chapters of the ACLU may have a position on this case.
15 Q. Okay. Do you know what their position is?
16 A. My understanding -- and I haven't checked since I was
17 called for this case, so I only know what I vaguely recall from
18 before I was called for this case -- my recollection is that
19 the ACLU has some sense that the taping of conversations
20 between attorneys and their clients is inappropriate and may be
21 a threat to Civil Rights.
22 Q. And -- I'm sorry, what?
23 A. And may be a threat to Civil Rights and liberties.
24 Q. Okay. Any other position that you know of?
25 A. That's the only position that I recall.
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1 Q. Okay. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, I would
2 be the person who determines whether evidence is admitted or
3 not admitted. And I would be the person who determines if the
4 evidence in the case consists of conversations between one or
5 more attorneys and a client.
6 If as a juror you heard that evidence, you're hearing
7 that evidence because I've determined as a matter of law that
8 you can hear that evidence.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. And then it's up to you and the other jurors to decide,
11 based upon the evidence or lack of evidence, whether the
12 charges in the indictment have been proven beyond a reasonable
13 doubt. Do you understand that?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Now, any thoughts, feelings, positions of the ACLU with
16 respect to any of the issues in the case or the admissibility
17 of any evidence in the case is completely irrelevant to your
18 determination of the facts.
19 A. Yes, I understand that.
20 Q. Is there anything about the ACLU's position that would
21 prevent you from following my instructions?
22 A. I've been a member of the ACLU for a --
23 Q. I'm sorry?
24 A. I've been a member of the ACLU for a pretty long time. I
25 wouldn't be a member, I wouldn't give them money, if I didn't
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1 trust them and think that they were doing pretty good work. If
2 I was told to put that out of my mind, I would do my best to do
3 so. But, you know, obviously that might be an issue for some
4 people. I don't know.
5 Q. I'm sorry, please keep your voice up.
6 A. Sure. I understand, I think, that the ACLU does not
7 determine what is admissible in this court. You determine
8 what's admissible in this court.
9 (Continued on next page)
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1 Q. And you are an intelligent and perceptive person. Now, you
2 have to -- you said it may be an issue. People come into court
3 having seen, heard, read things, and that is understandable
4 with any case that has received some publicity or which people
5 have spoken about before. The issue is whether you would put
6 that aside and whether you could put that aside and follow my
7 instructions on the law and decide the case based solely upon
8 the evidence or the lack of evidence here in court and you
9 forthrightly said there is an issue there and so now you have
10 thought about the issue and what I have said, so tell me, would
11 you follow my instructions?
12 Would you consider that evidence along with all of the
13 other evidence in the case without any biases or prejudices
14 towards that evidence, just follow my instructions on the law
15 and decide the case based solely on the evidence or lack of
16 evidence and my instructions on president law?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Are you sure of that?
19 A. A philosopher is never sure of anything. Yes, I understand
20 what the jury system is about. I understand my duties as a
21 juror and I would live up to those duties as a juror.
22 Q. And can you do that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And the reason I go through this is the parties are
25 entitled to have a jury who goes into this process who are
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1 committed to being fair and impartial and who affirm under
2 their oath to me not that they will try or do their best or so,
3 but that they will be fair and impartial, that they will
4 consider the evidence and lack of evidence and my instructions
5 on the law and that they will do that.
6 A. I understand.
7 Q. And so will do you that?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. And can you do that?
10 A. Yes. Yes, just yes.
11 Q. You mentioned that you had a friend who worked in the
12 Queens DA's office some years ago and you also mentioned that
13 you have a former roommate who works as a public defender. The
14 former roommate, does that person still work as a public
15 defender?
16 A. She worked as a public defender in Pittsburgh for about 5
17 years and now is in private practice.
18 Q. Okay.
19 Anything about -- and your friend in the Queens DA's
20 office, no longer works there?
21 A. He no longer works in that office. He worked there for
22 about 2 years and now is in private practice.
23 Q. All right. And you mentioned that you have a friend who is
24 a clerk for a judge?
25 A. Yes, I currently have a friend who clerks now for a
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1 district court judge up in Albany.
2 Q. Okay.
3 Is there anything about your relationships with any of
4 those people that would prevent you from being a fair and
5 impartial juror in this case?
6 A. No.
7 Q. We have gone over the issue of the attorney-client. There
8 are a couple of other questions which directed your attention
9 to some other kinds of evidence, bugs or wiretaps, and evidence
10 that was seized during searches of various places, as well as
11 evidence obtained by conducting surveillance and taking
12 photographs. And in response to those questions and whether it
13 would affect your ability to be fair and impartial, you said
14 no, not if they were legal. And, as I told you, before
15 evidence gets admitted here in court it's up to me to make the
16 determination of whether the evidence is legally admissible
17 here in court and so that is not an issue for the jury. It's
18 an issue for me. And any evidence admitted in court you would
19 have to consider in the same way as you would any other
20 evidence.
21 Would you do that?
22 A. I think that again maybe --
23 Q. Keep your voice up.
24 A. Again, perhaps this goes back to the fact that I am a
25 member of the ACLU. I understand that sort of the boundaries
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1 of what is a legal search have been extended under Ashcroft's
2 Justice Department. I personally am not particularly
3 comfortable with that but I do understand that in this court my
4 duty as a juror is to look at the evidence in front of me and
5 that you are the person who decides what is admissible so if I
6 am hearing it as a juror it's already been determined to be
7 admissible.
8 Is that a complete enough answer?
9 Q. Almost.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. The next question is in response to both of those
12 questions, would it prevent you from being fair and impartial,
13 and you said, no, as long as the searches were legal. And what
14 I have told you is that before any evidence was admitted I make
15 the determination that the evidence is in fact legally
16 admissible, so is there anything about your views about the way
17 in which evidence is obtained that would prevent you from being
18 fair and impartial considering all of the evidence, or lack of
19 evidence in the case, and deciding the case based solely on the
20 evidence or lack of evidence here in court?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you have any question about that?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Is there anything about all of your relations with lawyers
25 that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in
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1 this case?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You indicate that your aunt has visited Egypt a few years
4 ago. Is there anything about that that would prevent you from
5 being fair and impartial?
6 A. No. It was just a vacation.
7 Q. Okay.
8 Do you recall where your aunt went?
9 A. I think she saw the pyramids.
10 Q. About how long ago was that?
11 A. About 2 years ago and she spent ten days.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 You know lots of students of Middle Eastern descent.
14 Do you recall any specific countries that they are from or
15 descended from?
16 A. I don't really, unless it comes up in class, unless a
17 student volunteers it in class, but I have students of all
18 races and ethnic backgrounds.
19 Q. Okay.
20 Do you have any biases or prejudices against people of
21 Middle Eastern descent or of the Islamic faith?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You said you are not very knowledgeable about Islam.
24 Can you identify any sources of knowledge as you sit
25 here today?
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1 A. Oh, dear, I have had a world religion class when I was an
2 undergraduate, it would have been about ten years ago. To be
3 perfectly honest I don't really remember much of that class but
4 in terms of the sources of my knowledge that would be about it.
5 Q. Okay.
6 You have already indicated some views with respect to
7 the Attorney General and you indicated that you thought that
8 there was a law enforcement bias for or against people of the
9 Middle East.
10 Could you just explain to me what you meant by that?
11 A. Which part, the Attorney General or the law enforcement
12 bias or both?
13 Q. The law enforcement bias.
14 A. It struck me that after 9/11 people of Middle Eastern
15 descent were targeted for particular questioning. It seemed to
16 me that people of Middle Eastern descent were singled out for
17 questioning, whether appropriately or inappropriately singled
18 out, so I suppose that is a bias.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A couple of questions.
21 First, if you were chosen as a juror in this case you
22 would have to decide the case based solely on upon the evidence
23 or lack of evidence. One of the issues that is not for you is
24 what the motive for the case was or anything like that. Your
25 role is to determine whether based upon the evidence or lack of
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1 evidence the charges in the indictment have been proven beyond
2 a reasonable doubt at trial based upon the evidence or lack of
3 evidence. And can you do that?
4 A. I understand that. I can do that.
5 Q. Okay.
6 And would any of your views or impressions about law
7 enforcement prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror
8 in this case?
9 A. I don't think so. No, I don't think so. I know you want
10 yes or no.
11 Q. Well, look, both parties in the case, all parties, the
12 government and the defendants, are all entitled to have a fair
13 and partial jury in this case. And that is a jury who is
14 committed to be fair and impartial and who looks deeply into
15 themselves and says I will be fair and impartial. I will
16 listen to the evidence and he decide this case based solely
17 upon the evidence or lack of evidence.
18 So it's up to you to tell me, do you have any doubt
19 whether you could be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
20 A. Yes, I do have doubts. I would be dishonest if I said I
21 had no doubts. Like I said, I teach philosophy. My job is to
22 doubt.
23 Q. Okay.
24 Could you step out for a moment?
25 A. Yes.
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1 (Juror absent)
2 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, the government would move to
3 strike this juror for cause. She clearly has an
4 anti-government bias that is reflected in a number of answers
5 she has given and she obviously has indicated she has doubts as
6 to her ability to be fair to all sides.
7 MR. RUHNKE: We don't like it but we agree.
8 THE COURT: Candid, and true.
9 I will strike 106.
10 MR. TIGAR: If your Honor please, we consent also but
11 we don't think having an anti-government bias, whatever that
12 is, is ever a basis to challenge a juror for cause.
13 THE COURT: The juror is rightfully challenged for
14 cause because she has doubts about her ability to be a fair and
15 impartial juror in this case and to put aside any prior
16 conceptions that she may have about the case and to decide the
17 case based solely upon the evidence or lack of evidence.
18 MR. TIGAR: It was that last answer that caused us to
19 consent, your Honor. But I didn't wish to seem to agree with
20 that other presumption.
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 (Juror present)
23 BY THE COURT:
24 Q. Juror 106, I will excuse you.
25 I appreciate your having participated in the process
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1 and all of your paperwork will be taken care of by mail so you
2 can now return home. Again, I appreciate your participating in
3 the process.
4 A. Okay, great.
5 Thank you.
6 (Juror absent)
7 THE COURT: I think we should take a ten-minute break
8 before we continue.
9 (Recess)
10 THE COURT: Please be seated.
11 107 was stricken so that brings us to 109.
12 Let's call in 109.
13 (Juror present)
14 BY THE COURT:
15 Q. Please have a seat.
16 Good afternoon, Juror 109.
17 Since you were here last has anything changed
18 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
19 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
20 fair and impartial juror in this case?
21 A. Nothing has changed.
22 Q. Please keep your voice up. Talk into the microphone. It's
23 a big courtroom.
24 Thank you.
25 A. All right.
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1 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
2 chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st, so after today
3 it's unlikely that you will be called to come back before June
4 18th, but before you have to call in is June 18.
5 Does that present any serious hardship for you?
6 A. Not at this point.
7 Q. Okay.
8 Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone
9 about this case or have you looked at or listened to anything
10 about the case?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
13 any conversations here at the courthouse or with any of the
14 other prospective jurors?
15 A. No.
16 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
17 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
18 A. They didn't say really nothing about the case. I mean, I
19 never heard about this.
20 Q. Okay. All right.
21 You mentioned that you live with your brother and
22 mother?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is your brother employed?
25 A. Not at the moment, no. He dislocated his knee.
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1 Q. He dislocated his knee?
2 A. Kneecap.
3 Q. Keep your voice up. Okay?
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. What was the last occupation that your brother had?
6 A. He was working for a rent-a-car place.
7 Q. I am sorry?
8 A. A rent-a-car place.
9 Q. A rent-a-car place, okay.
10 Does your mother work outside the home?
11 A. No, she is retired.
12 Q. Okay.
13 And what did she do before she retired?
14 A. I know it was working with airline tickets and all that
15 kind of stuff, Rand McNally.
16 Q. Okay.
17 You indicated that you had been called for jury
18 service on a few other occasions, is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you ever actually serve on a jury?
21 A. Just once.
22 Q. Where was the jury that you served on?
23 A. It was here.
24 Q. In this courthouse?
25 A. Not in this courthouse, no, the other one.
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1 Q. 500 Pearl street, the one across the street?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Federal court?
4 A. I don't think it was federal court.
5 Q. It was state court?
6 A. Probably state.
7 Q. About how long ago was that?
8 A. I have no idea. It was a while ago.
9 Q. Okay.
10 And was that a civil case?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You had indicated that it was something about an oil
13 company?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And how long did that case last?
16 A. 4 days.
17 Q. Okay. And don't tell me what it was, but did the jury
18 reach a verdict in that case?
19 A. No, the judge decided.
20 Q. The judge --
21 A. The judge decided.
22 Q. The judge decided the case?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay.
25 And the jury never got to deliberate in that case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay.
3 Is there anything about that experience and with the
4 court system and the lawyers and the nature of the case, or
5 anything, anything about that experience that would prevent you
6 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay.
9 You indicated that you mostly got any information
10 about the news from watching TV?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And are there any particular TV news programs that you
13 watch?
14 A. I mean, it varies from whenever I am looking at TV because
15 I work two full-time jobs so basically it's only half an hour
16 or so of time watching news.
17 Q. Okay.
18 If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would
19 have to decide the case based solely on the evidence or lack of
20 evidence that is presented here in court. Do you understand
21 that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And would you do that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, it is possible that there could be publicity about the
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1 case and I know you don't listen to the news very much, but if
2 you were selected as a juror, you would have to not look at or
3 listen to or read anything about the case and if you saw
4 something in the newspaper or on the news about the case, you
5 would have to just turn away.
6 Do you understand that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And would you do that?
9 A. That is what I was instructed to do.
10 Q. In response to one of the questions on the questionnaire
11 you said that would pose some difficulty for you.
12 It may have been a mistake. It was in a series of
13 questions that you were answering yes to and then you answered
14 yes to that question. So let me ask it of you again.
15 Would it be hard for you to follow my instructions on
16 the law and to not look at or listen to anything to do with the
17 case?
18 A. No, it wouldn't be hard.
19 Q. Okay.
20 As you can tell from all of my questions the
21 fundamental issue is whether there is anything in your personal
22 history or life experience that would prevent you from being a
23 fair and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one
24 final time whether there is anything, whether I have asked you
25 about it specifically or not, that would prevent you from being
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1 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
2 A. Nothing, no.
3 Q. Okay.
4 Could you step out just for a moment.
5 (Juror absent)
6 MR. TIGAR: Can I have a moment, your Honor?
7 THE COURT: Yes.
8 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I believe the juror
9 indicated that he works two full-time jobs. I am not sure
10 whether he does the same job at two different places, if that
11 is what he meant, or whether there was another job that he did,
12 and if you can follow up on that issue I would appreciate it.
13 THE COURT: Sure.
14 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I was confused about his
15 answer concerning his prior jury service. He, on his
16 questionnaire, said he had served in the U.S. District Court in
17 White Plains and he has lived in Ossining for 24 years.
18 However, I understood him to say today that it was in state
19 court and he said "up there" and it was --
20 THE COURT: No, "down here". Down here across the
21 street.
22 MR. TIGAR: If he lived in Ossining he of course could
23 not have served in a state court jury in New York County and
24 that was my confusion. I couldn't figure out what that jury
25 service was.
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1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 MR. RUHNKE: Judge, just one additional comment.
3 I was looking at question 14 of the questionnaire and
4 I am not sure if I understand this to be the juror's current
5 place of employment.
6 Does he name his place of employment? There are two
7 places listed. That doesn't present a problem to me, I don't
8 think, but I wanted to flag it so if anybody else has a
9 problem.
10 THE COURT: I don't see it as a problem but I thank
11 you for bringing it to my attention.
12 Anyone else? I mean, I have already been asked to ask
13 him about -- that he has two full-time jobs and I will ask him
14 if both of them are in-house keeping.
15 MR. RUHNKE: That is of course fine. But the other
16 thing is this is a juror to an unusual degree has not had much
17 to tell us about much of anything and I am wondering if you can
18 ask him how he feels about serving in a case involving
19 terrorism just to hear him express some thoughts.
20 THE COURT: I will ask him some more about his
21 employment and I will ask him about anything of the allegations
22 in the case. He answered all of the questions on those
23 subjects as no and these were very detailed, numerous
24 questions. I will have him talk some more about what he does
25 and explore his jury service. Okay.
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1 (Juror present)
2 BY THE COURT:
3 Q. Juror 109, let me just follow up on a few other questions.
4 You told us that you worked at two full-time jobs.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay.
7 Are both of them in-house keeping?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you work at two separate institutions?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay.
12 On the questionnaire you had indicated that there were
13 three times that you had called or that you were called for
14 prior jury service, is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 (Continued on next page)
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Now, can you just help me, over what period of time have
3 you been called? What's the most recent time that you were
4 called?
5 A. I can't remember on that one. I mean, it's --
6 Q. You can't remember. Do you remember specifically that it
7 was three times or -- that you were actually called to come
8 down for jury service?
9 A. Three or four; I'm not sure. Because -- in my hometown, I
10 think I was called twice. I'm not sure.
11 Q. For all the times that you were called, do you -- you were
12 only sitting on a jury on only one case?
13 A. Only on one case.
14 Q. One case?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. When you put the answer down on your questionnaire and you
17 were asked what courts you were called in, you said the
18 Southern District court, White Plains and Ossining?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. When you were called in Ossining, was that a local court?
21 A. That's where I live at, in Ossining.
22 Q. And in that case, you did not actually serve on --
23 A. No.
24 Q. You were just called and didn't have to serve?
25 A. I didn't have to serve, no.
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1 Q. Okay. In White Plains, when you were called, do you recall
2 if that was in federal court or state court in White Plains?
3 A. I have no idea.
4 Q. Don't know. But you recall a time that you were called in
5 White Plains?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And the other court that you listed was the Southern
8 District court. Which court were you referring to -- let me --
9 A. It's here. But it's -- it wasn't in this building.
10 Q. I see. It's across the street.
11 A. It's the other one, yeah.
12 Q. The courthouse across the street?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Okay. When you said that you actually sat as a juror, that
15 was in the courthouse across the street?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And that's what you were referring to by the Southern
18 District?
19 A. Yeah, I guess, yeah. But I'm not sure which -- all of that
20 stuff.
21 Q. Well, you're right. You're absolutely right. And I could
22 have confused you because the courthouse across the street,
23 just like this courthouse, is the Southern District of
24 New York. We have two courthouses -- this is the federal
25 court -- and so it was in that courthouse across the street
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1 that you served on that case involving an oil company?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. For about four days.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And -- but the jurors didn't have to reach a decision in
6 that case, the judge did that?
7 A. The judge did it.
8 Q. Okay. When we got together last, I explained to you in
9 general what the case was about. Is there anything about the
10 allegations in the case that would prevent you from being a
11 fair and impartial juror in this case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. If you were selected as a juror, would you give all of the
14 parties in this case a fair trial?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Would you listen to the evidence or lack of evidence and my
17 instructions on the law and decide the case based solely on the
18 evidence or lack of evidence and my instructions on the law?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. Can you step out again? Just for a moment. I'm
21 sorry to keep on calling you in and out.
22 (Juror absent)
23 THE COURT: All right. No further questions? No
24 challenges for cause? Let's call 109 back in.
25 Thank you for clearing up my error.
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1 (Juror present)
2 BY THE COURT:
3 Q. Juror 109, you're still in the jury selection process, and
4 Mr. Fletcher will give you a piece of paper telling you what
5 number to call back on June the 18th, and you'll call in and
6 receive further instructions at that time.
7 Please remember to follow my continuing instructions:
8 Please don't talk about this case at all. Remember not to look
9 at or listen to, read anything to do with the case. If you
10 should see something, just turn away. Remember, as I'll tell
11 all of the jurors, please keep an open mind until you've heard
12 all of the evidence, I've instructed you on the law, and you've
13 gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. Fairness
14 and justice requires that you do that. All right? Have a very
15 good day.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. And you're excused. Please call in on June the 18th.
18 Thank you.
19 A. All right, thank you.
20 (Juror absent)
21 THE COURT: Juror 110.
22 DEPUTY CLERK: 110.
23 U.S. MARSHAL: 110 -- 117's here.
24 DEPUTY CLERK: Okay. Well, bring 110 in.
25 (Juror present)
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Please, have a seat. Good afternoon, Juror 110. You had
3 indicated on your form that you had a serious hardship if you
4 were chosen.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. For this case?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And could you explain to me what the serious hardship would
9 be?
10 A. Yes. My mother was in a nursing home, and she's actually
11 unfortunately dying at this time. She has Alzheimer's and --
12 Q. Please keep your voice up, talk into the microphone.
13 A. My mother has Alzheimer's and right now she has gangrene.
14 Q. I --
15 A. You can't hear me?
16 Q. No.
17 A. Do I go closer to this?
18 Q. Yes, or bring the microphone closer towards you.
19 A. How's that?
20 Q. Wonderful.
21 A. Better?
22 Q. Much.
23 A. My mother's in a nursing home. She has advanced stages of
24 Alzheimer's, and right now she has gangrene setting in her left
25 lower foot, and it's just a matter of time for the infection to
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1 go into her. I actually have a letter from the nursing home
2 also.
3 Q. All right. Do you actively see your mother in the course
4 of this time?
5 A. I've been -- I was going five days a week, now I'm going
6 seven days. I'm just watching her, staying with her.
7 Q. Okay. We sit from -- I know you also work.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. We sit from 9:30 until 4:30.
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. So it would really be like a substitute for your job over
12 this period of time. Is there -- would that interfere with
13 your ability to be able to go to the nursing home?
14 A. I sit -- at night, I have the phone right next to me.
15 Waiting for them to call. Because she's just doing so poorly.
16 It's a very difficult time.
17 Q. Right. You'd still be home every night if you sat on this
18 case.
19 A. But -- it's not that I wouldn't want to serve, because I
20 work for a court. But I don't know how I would have my mind
21 where it should be at this time.
22 Q. Okay, could you step out a moment?
23 (Juror absent)
24 THE COURT: May we excuse the juror?
25 MR. RUHNKE: Yes.
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1 MR. MORVILLO: The government agrees, your Honor.
2 (Juror present)
3 BY THE COURT:
4 Q. Juror 110, I'll excuse you. I appreciate your coming in.
5 And you're free to go home, and your paperwork will be taken
6 care of by mail.
7 A. Thank you.
8 (Juror absent)
9 DEPUTY CLERK: 117.
10 MR. RUHNKE: Juror 117 is coming in?
11 THE COURT: 117. We're waiting on 113 and 116.
12 (Juror present)
13 BY THE COURT:
14 Q. Hi.
15 A. Hi.
16 Q. Good morning -- good afternoon, Juror 117. Let me ask you
17 some preliminary questions. Since you were here last, has
18 anything changed concerning your ability to serve as a juror in
19 this case? Or has anything occurred to you that may affect
20 your ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
21 A. No.
22 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
23 chosen in this case will be Monday, June the 21st. So after
24 today, it's unlikely that you'll have to call back or come back
25 until June the 18th. Does that present any serious hardship
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1 for you?
2 A. No, but I go on vacation in August.
3 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in the case, we would -- it's
4 unlikely that we'll be taking off any time in August. We would
5 be sitting through because, among other things, the number of
6 jurors that we have in the case will potentially have
7 conflicting plans. So we would be sitting, likely sitting, for
8 all of August. So would that present a serious hardship for
9 you?
10 A. I've already paid for my trip.
11 Q. Could you reschedule it or get the money back for the
12 tickets?
13 A. Honestly, I don't know. I can find out.
14 Q. Usually, with this much advance notice, I mean, you could
15 get credit for the tickets to use on your next vacation.
16 A. I'll ask.
17 Q. What?
18 A. I'll ask. It's no problem. I mean, it's already paid.
19 Q. I'm sorry?
20 A. I already paid for it. I paid for it in January.
21 Q. But assuming that you could get credit against your --
22 A. It's no problem.
23 Q. Okay. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone
24 about this case or have you looked at or listened to anything
25 about the case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And that includes any conversations here at the courthouse
5 with any other prospective jurors?
6 A. No.
7 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
8 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
9 A. No.
10 Q. In answering the questionnaire, you said that the case
11 would presented a serious economic hardship for you because you
12 wouldn't be paid your salary while you were on jury duty. And
13 yet at the same time, you work for the --
14 A. I work for the city.
15 Q. You work for the city.
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. And my understanding is that as a governmental employer,
18 the city does pay.
19 A. Yes, but what I was trying to say is that -- okay, I'm a
20 social worker. I have clients. And my cases would have to go
21 to somebody else, and just because the Court says, you have to
22 be here, that doesn't mean the supervisor's going to be happy
23 with it. That's what I was trying to say.
24 Q. Right. But it wouldn't be an economic hardship for you --
25 A. No, they said I would get paid.
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1 Q. And I realize that it would cause some disruption because
2 clients -- some other people to take over your clients?
3 A. Take over my cases, yes.
4 Q. We usually don't sit on Fridays. And we obviously don't
5 sit on weekends.
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. And we're through by 4:30 every day. So to the extent that
8 you wanted to follow through on some of your cases and clients
9 in the evenings, on Fridays --
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. -- you could do that?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. So considering all of that, this case would not be a
16 serious hardship for you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay. You mentioned that your father was decease and that
19 your mother is retired.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you tell me what your father -- what your father did?
22 A. He worked for Transit and then he was a cab driver.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. My mother used to work for the Board of Higher Education,
25 City College.
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1 Q. Okay. Thank you.
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. You mentioned that you had served on several jury trials.
4 A. Yes. Special grand jury, I think was 18 months, and then
5 they gave us an additional six months.
6 Q. Okay. Let me start with the jury trials, the trial juries.
7 Okay?
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. How many times did you serve as a trial juror?
10 A. I honestly don't remember.
11 Q. As best you can recall?
12 A. Let's say four, five times.
13 Q. Four or five times.
14 A. Yeah, I'm not sure.
15 Q. Was that in state court or federal court?
16 A. State.
17 Q. And what kinds of cases?
18 A. That was civil, civil suits.
19 Q. And in those cases, did the jury reach a verdict -- don't
20 tell me what it was.
21 A. Okay. I remember one was settled out of court, and I
22 think -- one or two that we came to a decision.
23 Q. I'm sorry, one or two?
24 A. Two that we came to a decision. And one I remember it was
25 settled out of court.
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1 Q. Okay. Have you ever sat on a federal case?
2 A. No.
3 Q. No. And have you ever sat in a criminal case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. No. Is there anything about your experience in those civil
6 cases that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
7 juror in this case?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And you mention that you have also sat as a -- on a grand
10 jury?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. Do you recall how many times you sat on a grand jury?
13 A. One time, it was for 18 months, and they gave us an
14 additional six months.
15 Q. One time for 18 months. And when was that? Years ago?
16 A. Yeah, about four or five years ago. It's been awhile.
17 Q. Been awhile.
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. Do you understand that if you -- that what a grand jury
20 does is it considers evidence and --
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. -- returns indictments?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. And that the standard of proof in a grand jury is different
25 than the standards of proof that applies at trial in a criminal
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1 case? In a criminal case at trial, the government must prove
2 the allegations in the indictment beyond a reasonable doubt
3 based upon the evidence or lack of evidence?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you understand that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And at trial, as I told you in my preliminary instructions,
8 the indictment is simply a charge, and at trial, the jury can
9 not place any weight at all on the fact that there is an
10 indictment or that there are charges. That's only the way in
11 which the case is commenced in court. The jury has to consider
12 only the evidence or lack of evidence in court to see whether
13 the government has proved the charges in the indictment beyond
14 a reasonable doub