24 May 2004
Source: Digital file from Southern District Reporters Office; (212) 805-0300.
This is the transcript of Day 4 of the trial.
See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ssy-dt.htm
Lynne Stewart web site with case documents: http://www.lynnestewart.org/
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1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 ------------------------------x
2
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
3
4 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK)
4
5 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar,"
5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART,
6 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY,
6
7 Defendants.
7
8 ------------------------------x
8
9
9 New York, N.Y.
10 May 24, 2004
10 9:45 a.m.
11
11 Before:
12
12 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL
13
13 District Judge
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1 APPEARANCES
1
2 DAVID N. KELLEY
2 United States Attorney for the
3 Southern District of New York
3 ROBIN BAKER
4 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO
4 ANTHONY BARKOW
5 ANDREW DEMBER
5 Assistant United States Attorneys
6
6 KENNETH A. PAUL
7 BARRY M. FALLICK
7 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar
8
8 MICHAEL TIGAR
9 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE
9 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart
10
10 DAVID STERN
11 DAVID A. RUHNKE
11 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry
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1 (Trial resumed)
2 THE COURT: Good morning all. Please be seated.
3 We are starting a little late this morning because not
4 all of the jurors who were supposed to be here are here yet and
5 I wanted to wait at least for a sufficient group to start.
6 I am told that there are about six now. We are
7 supposed to have about 11 this morning and so I believe that
8 the first group of six is coming over.
9 There are a couple of other things.
10 One is I got the government's letter and the question
11 is whether the defendants agree with that or the defendants
12 would like to respond in writing to that. That is the May 24th
13 letter.
14 MR. RUHNKE: That is the reference to the juror, your
15 Honor?
16 MR. RUHNKE: Yes.
17 MR. RUHNKE: One, we we don't agree with it and we
18 will respond in writing if that is what your Honor wants.
19 THE COURT: Fine.
20 MR. RUHNKE: When would you want a response?
21 THE COURT: Tomorrow?
22 MR. RUHNKE: That is fine.
23 THE COURT: Next, in looking over the coming numbers I
24 think the parties agree that juror numbers 164, 184, 196, 201,
25 202, 212, 229 should be stricken.
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1 MR. DEMBER: Excuse me, your Honor, did you say 196?
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 MR. DEMBER: I don't think we have indicated that in
4 our papers, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Okay. Well, check response number 6.
6 MR. DEMBER: We don't have the questionnaire here,
7 your Honor, for 196. I just have our suggested questions.
8 THE COURT: Okay. That is fine. I won't do anything
9 with respect to 196 at this point and just ask you to check.
10 MR. DEMBER: Sure.
11 THE COURT: I didn't include, by the way, 195 in that
12 list because it wasn't crystal clear to me that the response
13 that the parties have talked about is sufficiently identifying.
14 I can ask a couple of questions to find that out but I just
15 wasn't sure on the responses to the questionnaire, which is why
16 I didn't include 195.
17 But do the parties agree with respect to 164, 184,
18 201, 202, 212 and 229? You don't have to do it right now. You
19 can go check and get back to me but if you do, then I would see
20 that those jurors are informed that they are no longer in the
21 panel.
22 Do you want to check?
23 MR. RUHNKE: I think we would like to check them, your
24 Honor.
25 THE COURT: That is perfectly fine.
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1 The first group -- yes, Mr. Tigar.
2 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, on Friday the government asked
3 for and obtained leave to file a letter with the court on
4 Wednesday following up on the evidence argument we were having.
5 THE COURT: Yes.
6 MR. TIGAR: May we file something simultaneously? In
7 reviewing my notes of the argument there are a couple of
8 things. The letter would be no more than two pages that I
9 could illuminate a little better than I was able to do, and
10 then we can reply to each other's by the Friday that your Honor
11 set if that is all right.
12 THE COURT: That is fine. I gave the government the
13 right to follow up on one specific thing, but if there is
14 anything else that the government thought that it wanted to
15 follow up in no more than two-pages it could do that too and
16 the defendants can respond to that also on Friday.
17 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, just so I am clear, I
18 assume the two-page limit applies only to new issues.
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 Anything else?
21 All right, we have our first group. Mr. Fletcher
22 advises me that it's Jurors 29, 70, 104, 106, 109, 110 and 119.
23 So we will begin by calling in Juror 29.
24 Are the parties ready?
25 MR. DEMBER: Yes, your Honor.
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1 MR. RUHNKE: A quick question.
2 With regard to Juror 29, when he was here last time he
3 made a statement to the effect that this case is all about
4 terror. These are the sheikh's men -- referring I presume to
5 Mr. Yousry and Mr. Sattar -- and there is his lawyer. I
6 request that you ask the juror whether, as he goes into this
7 process as a juror, he believes that the defendants are likely
8 guilty as charged.
9 THE COURT: I will consider that.
10 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you.
11 THE COURT: Just an observation: I received your
12 letter and I certainly appreciate your comments about the
13 thoroughness of the questioning and the voir dire and I realize
14 that there can be differences in the way in which questions are
15 asked subsequently.
16 As I told you when this issue came up on an earlier
17 occasion, I do ask open-ended questions of the jurors in a way
18 that is much broader than usual in terms of, for example,
19 anything that they have seen or heard or read to explain to me
20 and other kinds of open-ended questions. At the same time, I
21 also ask other kinds of questions to assure that the jurors are
22 fair and impartial and will decide the case based solely on the
23 evidence or lack of evidence.
24 The problem sometimes with some of the questions posed
25 by the parties is that they suggest to jurors impermissible
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1 considerations or impermissible thoughts which the jurors then
2 have to think about and overcome, which is not a good way of
3 conducting voir dire and, as I mentioned to you on an earlier
4 occasion, if I sense any doubt from any juror about the ability
5 to be fair and impartial in the case, I always follow up with
6 numerous questions, which is one reason that this process is
7 taking as long as it is, but as I also indicated to the jurors,
8 that is something which I take very seriously, the importance
9 of having a fair and impartial juror. And so I do follow up
10 extensively and that is why this process takes a long time.
11 Again, your questions suggest to the juror an answer
12 which it's wrong to suggest to the juror. I followed up
13 extensively with the juror's initial remarks to me, extensively
14 to go back over the case and the juror's attitudes and the
15 like, and I am sure that I will do it with response to lots of
16 other questions. When the juror was here last you said, well,
17 I assume that it's not done. Yes, it's not done, not close to
18 done.
19 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I don't want to prolong this
20 but asking a question as I suggested doesn't maybe so much
21 plant a thought that is already there as opposed to give the
22 juror permission to speak a thought that they might be
23 reluctant to speak. I remember a juror the other day who
24 looked right back at you after you asked a question and said
25 "honestly, your Honor," and the thought is there but jurors are
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1 reluctant to speak out loud things that make them sound like
2 they are less than fair. That is the purpose of the question.
3 THE COURT: I pursued the questioning at length to
4 assure myself that any juror who is even in the pool will be
5 able to be fair and impartial and, in fact, does not have
6 doubts about the juror's ability to be fair and impartial. As
7 I said, the length of the questionnaire and the length of the
8 individual questioning has been very long precisely to assure
9 the fairness and impartiality of the jurors.
10 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Okay. Let's bring in Juror 29.
12 (juror present)
13 BY THE COURT:
14 Q. Good morning, Juror 29.
15 A. Good morning.
16 Q. I understand that you have checked with your employer and
17 that you will be paid while you are on jury duty?
18 A. Yes, I just have to turn the check when I receive it from
19 the court over to them.
20 Q. Okay.
21 So sitting as a juror in this case would not be an
22 economic hardship for you?
23 A. No, as long as I get paid I am fine.
24 Q. Okay.
25 And you also told us that you had -- that you
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1 regularly brought launch to your wife and that you visited your
2 mother and you told us about the possibility of other members
3 of your family assisting with that. If you were chosen as a
4 juror in this case, would that present any hardships for you in
5 terms of your care for your wife or mother?
6 A. I spoke to my two brothers. They will take care of my mom
7 and my sister-in-law and my wife's girlfriend, if they pitch
8 in.
9 Q. With respect to your wife?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay.
12 So sitting on the jury would not be a hardship for you
13 in terms of your relationships with your family?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Since you were here last has anything changed concerning
16 your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has anything
17 happened to you that may affect your ability to be fair and
18 impartial in the case?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You mentioned that you have spoken to members of your
21 family about taking care of your wife and your mother. Have
22 you told them anything about this case?
23 A. Absolutely not.
24 Q. All right. While you were waiting with the other
25 prospective jurors did you or anyone you overheard discuss this
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1 case?
2 A. No.
3 Q. When you had answered the question with respect to your
4 marital status, you had indicated that you were single but
5 living with a nonmarital partner.
6 A. She is my wife. We have been together 24 years.
7 Q. Okay.
8 Does your son live with you?
9 A. No, my son is married and he lives -- works in Washington
10 and lives in Virginia.
11 Q. Okay.
12 You said that he is a consultant to the government.
13 What sort of work does he do?
14 A. He doesn't tell me. I don't get into it with him.
15 Q. Okay.
16 Do you know, does he work -- is his employer the
17 government or is he privately employed?
18 A. I think he works for an outside firm that consults with the
19 government.
20 Q. Okay.
21 Can you tell me -- you mentioned that your son has two
22 Masters.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know what they are in?
25 A. No. I don't remember.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 You mentioned that your son was in the Army for a long
3 period of time. He is no longer in the Army?
4 A. No, he got hurt in Panama. He hurt his ankle. It got
5 messed up in Panama and he couldn't -- my son was in the
6 Special Forces, as I put down, and he couldn't continue with
7 the Special Forces training. He could have stayed in the
8 regular Army but with him it's Special Forces or nothing.
9 Q. And is there anything about your son's military service
10 that would prevent you from about being a fair and impartial
11 juror in this case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You mentioned that you have been on two juries, one civil
14 and one criminal, and both were in the state court in the
15 Bronx?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And the civil case was a woman who fell in the subway. Did
18 that case reach a verdict?
19 A. No, they settled out of court.
20 Q. Okay.
21 And the criminal case, was there a verdict in that
22 case?
23 A. I was the alternate. I didn't go into the deliberations.
24 I heard the whole trial but when they went into deliberations
25 they released me.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 And that was a case about --
3 A. A narcotics case.
4 Q. Narcotics.
5 And you have not served on a grand jury?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Is there anything about your experience with serving as --
8 by the way, in the civil case, did the case start and settle
9 during trial?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And is there anything about your experience with those
12 cases in which you were sitting as a juror or an alternate,
13 anything about those cases that would prevent you from being a
14 fair and impartial juror in this case? And I refer to the
15 entire experience, your experience with the court, the lawyers,
16 the process, anything about that that would prevent you from
17 being fair and impartial in this case?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You mentioned that you or someone close to you has been the
20 victim of a serious crime. Can you tell me what that was?
21 A. The victim -- I don't remember putting that down.
22 Q. One question said have you or anyone close to you ever been
23 the victim of a serious crime whether or not reported, and you
24 said yes referring to yourself.
25 A. Oh, I got mugged and that was -- I got mugged. They took
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1 my money. It was in Manhattan. I left a bar about 7 o'clock
2 and I was walking on 8th Avenue. They mugged me and then I
3 told the police car and I couldn't really identify the people
4 because they grabbed me from behind and the police put me on
5 the subway and that was what happened.
6 Q. Okay.
7 Was anyone prosecuted in that case?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You said that you had brought criminal charges against
10 someone, you yourself. Did you bring criminal charges in
11 connection with that case?
12 A. No, I didn't bring criminal charges. Oh, yes, when I was
13 15 I got stabbed in a fight and my father, he brought charges
14 against the kid that stabbed me. That was that, yes.
15 Q. Okay.
16 Do you know what happened in that case?
17 A. Yes, the kid went to juvenile -- Spofford. He went up to
18 Spofford.
19 Q. Okay.
20 And you said that someone in your family had been
21 sued. Do you recall that?
22 A. Sued? I know my nephew got in trouble with the Post Office
23 and my brother didn't really get into it with me but he had a
24 big problem. He had to get lawyers with the Post Office. It
25 was solved. My nephew didn't go to jail or nothing, but it was
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1 something to do with money in the Post Office in the cash
2 drawer, something to that effect.
3 Q. Okay.
4 When was that, do you recall?
5 A. Oh, that was quite -- that is going back maybe a good ten,
6 11 years ago.
7 Q. By the way, how long was it since you were mugged in
8 Manhattan?
9 A. Oh, that is a long time. That is about over 20 years.
10 Q. And you mentioned that you had been sued by someone.
11 A. Oh, yes, Citibank. They garnisheed me one time.
12 Q. And what happened to that?
13 A. They garnisheed my salary. That was the outcome of that.
14 Q. Were you represented by a lawyer in that case?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Have you or anyone close to you ever been in prison?
17 A. Well, some friends in the street. They got arrested when
18 we growing up, you know, in our teens. Friends of mine got
19 arrested for different things -- narcotics, burglary. They
20 went to jail and they came out.
21 Q. Did you ever visit any of them in jail?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Now, you have had all of these experiences from being a
24 victim to being sued, to having people who have gotten in
25 trouble with the law, a nephew, and bringing charges. Is there
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1 anything about any of those experiences that would prevent you
2 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices towards the government
5 or the police or defendants or defense counsel?
6 A. No, I don't know them, no. I don't deal with the police or
7 nobody. I just stay by myself.
8 Q. Okay.
9 You mentioned that your -- by the way, do you go into
10 this case with any bias or prejudice towards the government or
11 any of the defendants or any of the lawyers in the case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You mentioned that your son was in Iraq for a period of
14 time. He is now back from Iraq?
15 A. Yes, he is back. He came back in the beginning of March.
16 Q. All right.
17 Anything about that that would prevent you from being
18 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You mentioned that you are somewhat knowledgeable about the
21 practices of Islam and that you gained that knowledge from TV
22 documentaries?
23 A. Yes, and I also have -- on my job I have a couple of Black
24 Muslims and, you know, they are civilized on the job. Whatever
25 we believe when they leave we get along and we work. And we
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1 share some information, you know, we talk.
2 Q. All right.
3 Do you recall what TV documentaries you have seen?
4 A. It was on the History Channel. It was a complete history
5 of Mohammed from the beginning all the way up to now almost.
6 It went from the beginning of Islam to the present.
7 Q. And do you talk about Islam with any of your co-workers who
8 are Muslim?
9 A. Just -- the guys I work with, we talk about everything,
10 what is in the newspaper today, the different things that
11 happen. You know, it just depends on what we are talking about
12 for that day. I have two Chinese co-workers and if something
13 happened in China we will talk about China and if I don't agree
14 with them we will get into sort of a debate. But there is no
15 animosity because we have been working together for so many
16 years, working together for like 16 years.
17 Q. Are you talking about your --
18 A. My co-workers. I work in this one building and there are 4
19 men plus myself and one fellow I have been working with 16, the
20 others 5, 9, working quite a few years together, you know, as a
21 group. So we argue. We disagree on a lot of things in the
22 news and whatever. Everybody has their own opinion. But there
23 is no animosity about different religions or creed, color or
24 race or whatever.
25 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices against anyone of
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1 Mid-Eastern descent or anyone of the Islamic faith?
2 A. Bin Laden. I would like to get my hands on his throat.
3 Q. All right. If there was anything that came out in the
4 course of the trial relating to Bin Laden, would that prevent
5 you from being fair and impartial in the case?
6 A. No, I don't think so.
7 Q. Why is that right if you have such an animosity?
8 A. Well, I don't like Bin Laden, period. He is a murderer, a
9 terrorist and should be brought to justice.
10 Q. If there were any evidence in the case which touched on
11 him, would that affect your impartiality?
12 A. That is a good question. It would depend on what it was, I
13 guess. If it was just a minor thing, that just his name was
14 brought in for a minor thing, but I guess I would go with the
15 flow on that.
16 Q. Tell me what you recall seeing or hearing about the blind
17 Sheikh Abdel Rahman.
18 A. You know, I didn't really get into the full details of the
19 blind sheikh except that he was on trial for terrorist
20 activities and it's just I scan through the newspapers. I
21 really didn't get into the actual what he did or what he didn't
22 do. I didn't really go that far with the blind sheikh.
23 Q. Okay.
24 Now, as you heard from my initial description of the
25 case, there will be various sorts of allegations with respect
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1 to the blind sheikh in this case and the charges in this case
2 involve alleged connections with the blind sheikh.
3 Is there anything about that that would prevent you
4 from being fair and impartial in this case?
5 A. No.
6 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would have
7 to listen to this case and decide this case based solely on the
8 evidence or lack of evidence in this case. You would have to
9 listen to what the evidence was or the lack of evidence. Could
10 you do that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you have any doubts about your ability to do that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You mentioned that you had visited the FBI building in
15 lower Manhattan. What was the purpose of that visit?
16 A. Oh, we were just walking around, you know, just for
17 sightseeing. It wasn't no business with the FBI at all.
18 Q. Okay.
19 Did you go into the building?
20 A. No, we just went on the outside and we went into the lobby
21 and they said what are you doing here and we said we are just
22 looking around, you can't do that, and we walked out. There
23 was about four of us but we went from Chinatown and we just
24 kept walking downtown, you know.
25 Q. You mentioned that you had been called for jury duty
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1 because you indicated that you had been to the United States
2 Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York.
3 A. That was so many years ago. I forget now.
4 Q. Did you ever serve on a jury?
5 A. No. I never went through -- you know, that was so many
6 years ago, I forget. I think I was like 19 years old or 20
7 years old.
8 Q. Okay.
9 You had raised a question last time about the
10 allegations in this case and the fact that the allegations were
11 related to the allegations related to terrorism, and is there
12 anything about that that would prevent you from being a fair
13 and impartial juror in this case?
14 A. No, I would have to listen to the evidence in this case
15 before I could make a judgment.
16 Q. Is there anything about the allegations as I have explained
17 them to you that leads you to be biased or prejudiced in favor
18 of the government or the defendants?
19 A. No.
20 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would be
21 required to decide the case based solely on the evidence or
22 lack of evidence and my instructions on the law.
23 Will you do that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you do that?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you have any doubts about that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. As you can tell from all of these questions, the
5 fundamental issue is whether there is anything in your personal
6 history or life experience, whether I have asked you about it
7 specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a fair
8 and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one final
9 time whether there is anything, whether I have asked you about
10 it specifically or not, that would prevent you from we being a
11 fair and impartial juror in this case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Could you step out for a moment.
14 (Juror absent)
15 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we would move to strike the
16 juror for cause. I listened carefully to his answers and I
17 recognize he told your Honor unequivocally and firmly that he
18 could be fair and had no bias or prejudices. The one issue
19 that concerns us a lot is his very strong reaction to the name
20 Bin Laden and what would happen if the name Bin Laden were to
21 work its way into the case.
22 Your Honor has the pending in limine motions but if
23 the government's in limine applications are granted, he will
24 hear essentially Osama Bin Laden calling for the release and
25 freedom of Sheikh Rahman and he will divine the fact that even
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1 after September 11 his lawyer continued to represent him, the
2 interpreters continued to interpret, and I don't think we can
3 trust this juror, because of his strong reaction, to be able to
4 carry through on what he obviously wants to do, which is to be
5 a fair juror. When I say I don't trust the juror, I don't
6 think he is misleading us but I think because of the strength
7 of his reaction that despite his best efforts I don't think he
8 could be fair and impartial, so we move to strike him for
9 cause.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 The government?
12 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, we don't think that a strike
13 for cause is appropriate at this point. The juror has
14 indicated in the last few questions that he could be fair. I
15 imagine frankly, your Honor, if we asked every juror who walked
16 into the courtroom what they thought of Mr. Bin Laden we
17 probably would get a very similar reaction. But that fact
18 alone obviously, the fact he doesn't like the person, is very
19 different from whether or not he can be fair and impartial in
20 this case.
21 In the last few questions you asked, and I believe you
22 were probing him on his ability to be fair in this case and he
23 indicated he certainly could be. He was unequivocal about that
24 fact, so I don't think a strike for cause at this point is
25 appropriate.
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1 THE COURT: All right.
2 I will actually follow up with another couple of
3 questions if you want, Mr. Ruhnke, for him on that subject. I
4 asked him about it and he thought about it and he said, in
5 essence, that he would have to listen to the evidence or lack
6 of evidence on that issue; that he would have to go with the
7 flow. And he is a very thoughtful and candid and
8 straightforward person who has had an awful lot of life
9 experience with all of the processes of the system and says
10 very forthrightly that he would be fair. But I will follow up
11 with those questions if you want me to.
12 MR. RUHNKE: I would, your Honor, thank you.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 Let's call the juror.
15 MR. RUHNKE: Before the juror comes in it occurs to me
16 also that he had a very strong reaction to the report of the
17 beheading of the American businessman. He reported last time
18 the first thing he volunteered as a juror was that incident,
19 that "that incident turned me down." Those were his words.
20 But whether he has discussed that with any of his friends in
21 the garage or in the Muslim community, and whether he can
22 separate that from this case.
23 THE COURT: Okay. I have already told him that has
24 nothing to do with this case but if you want me to raise it
25 with him again I shall.
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1 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, I do, thank you.
2 (Juror present)
3 BY THE COURT:
4 Q. Juror 29, thank you. Just a few follow-up questions.
5 When we were here last you had mentioned the incident
6 in Iraq with respect to the beheading -- and I went over that
7 with you -- and have you discussed that incident with others?
8 A. No. Just my son and I were talking about it, you know,
9 what happened over there, and then we started to talk about the
10 incident in the prisons that came to light and then the
11 beheading. We were just -- my son and I were talking about it.
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1 (Juror 29)
2 BY THE COURT:
3 Q. Okay. Can you tell me anything else about what you
4 discussed about that?
5 A. Well, we discussed that the media made too much of this
6 because when the -- they capture an American soldier, before
7 this incident ever came to light, they're not serving him a
8 steak dinner and asking him how he likes it. They're beating
9 the hell out of American soldiers. They're smacking them;
10 they're abusing them. And then when they get POW'ed and they
11 get their butt beat, the same as they did to the American
12 soldiers, the news media's right away, Oh, they're cruel and
13 inhuman treatment and all this other garbage.
14 And that's my opinion on that.
15 Q. Okay. Ask there are allegations with respect to terrorism
16 in this case, would your feeling about that interfere with your
17 ability to be fair and impartial?
18 A. No, I don't think so. I'd have to listen to the evidence
19 in the case. To form any kind of opinion what's going on. I
20 don't know -- I don't know what this case is all about, to tell
21 you the truth.
22 Q. Okay. You mentioned that you had a -- some of your
23 thoughts with respect to Bin Laden. There may be evidence in
24 the case about in Bin Laden in this case, and the question is,
25 would that -- would your thoughts, feelings about that make it
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1 difficult for you to be fair and impartial?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And why is that?
4 A. Well, I don't know what these men are on trial for.
5 Q. Right.
6 A. And so I'd have to listen to the evidence to find out what
7 it's all about.
8 Q. If there were a connection with Bin Laden, would that make
9 it -- would that interfere with your ability to assess the
10 evidence or lack of evidence?
11 A. No. I have to listen to the evidence.
12 Q. Okay, could you step out a moment?
13 (Juror absent)
14 THE COURT: I'm prepared to strike the juror. And I'm
15 prepared to make detailed findings if you want. But it is
16 clear to me that there's a fair challenge cause. I have to
17 make credibility findings. If you want me to make the
18 credibility findings, I'll make the credibility findings.
19 It's -- so you tell me.
20 MR. DEMBER: May I have a moment, your Honor?
21 THE COURT: I'm sorry?
22 MR. DEMBER: May I have a moment?
23 THE COURT: Sure.
24 (Off the record)
25 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, we will not ask your Honor to
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1 make credibility findings on the record.
2 THE COURT: I mean, it is plain that there's a fair
3 challenge for cause based upon all of his answers and the
4 degree of his feeling in connection, beliefs, some of which
5 come out with greater specificity with response to some
6 questions, so that assessing all of the answers, it's clear to
7 me that he could not be a fair and impartial juror, despite his
8 best efforts. And trying is not good enough, as I said last
9 week.
10 All right. Call 29 back.
11 (Juror present)
12 BY THE COURT:
13 Q. Hi.
14 A. Hello.
15 Q. Juror 29, I'm going to excuse you. I want to express my
16 appreciation to you for having participated in the process.
17 And I also want to explain to you that what you have done is to
18 perform a public service by participating in the process. And
19 I realize that you've actually gone the extra length by
20 checking out some of your employer and making other
21 arrangements, so I really appreciate all of that, and hope that
22 you take away from this experience the personal satisfaction of
23 knowing that you've performed a public service, because without
24 people such as you who participate in the process, this process
25 of jury selection and the administration of justice simply
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1 couldn't exist.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. Again, I appreciate it, and you're welcome to go home.
4 A. All right, fine. I need a paper from the Court for today,
5 because I don't get paid unless I come with a paper.
6 Q. Yes, all right. So you should go across the street. If
7 you go across the street back to 500 Pearl and check in with
8 the jury administrator --
9 A. Room 160, is it?
10 Q. Correct.
11 A. So I'm finished with jury duty?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Okay. Thank you very much, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 (Juror absent)
16 THE COURT: All right. Juror Number 70.
17 (Juror present)
18 BY THE COURT:
19 Q. Good morning, Juror Number 70. Let me ask you some
20 preliminary questions. Since you were here last, has anything
21 changed concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this
22 case or has anything occurred to you that may affect your
23 ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And it now appears that the date that the final jury will
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1 be chosen will be Monday, June 21st. So after today, it is
2 unlikely that you'll be called back or asked to call in until
3 June the 18th. Does that pose any serious hardship for you?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about
6 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
7 the case?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Could you just keep your voice up and talk into the
10 microphone?
11 A. Oh. No.
12 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case? And that includes
13 any conversations here at the courthouse or with other
14 prospective jurors?
15 A. No.
16 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
17 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You indicated that this case will not present any serious
20 hardship for you, right?
21 A. Well, I was speaking with my employer because I'm a temp at
22 an agency, and through the agency I would have no problem, but
23 the site that I'm in now might have a problem with that.
24 Q. I'm sorry, could you --
25 A. Like I was saying, my employer wouldn't have a problem with
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1 it, but the site that I'm in now might have a problem with it,
2 so...
3 Q. Okay. But you're employed full-time by a law firm?
4 A. Through an agency at a law firm, now, yes.
5 Q. Okay. Between the law firm and the agency, would you --
6 I'm sure the law firm would not hold it against you that you
7 were on jury duty, I mean, it's the nature of law firms.
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. And I did not sure what your concern is.
10 A. The only concern I have now is because being that the
11 length of the trial might go long, I have a wife that's
12 expecting, and I don't know if I could go without, you know,
13 receiving money like that every week, so that would be the only
14 problem I have with that.
15 Q. Okay. But would your agency continue to pay you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Would the law firm continue to pay you?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Could you just -- you had indicated that the case would not
20 present any serious economic hardship for you, though?
21 A. From what I understood, that they would have paid me for
22 the jury duty. When I spoke with them, they said they would
23 only pay the first two days. Then after that the city picks up
24 the tab.
25 Q. After that, what?
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1 A. That the city pays for it -- or....
2 Q. Who told you that?
3 A. Well, because I work for an agency called Manpower, and
4 they said that they'd pay the first two days that I'm in jury
5 duty, but then after that, I guess, you know, how the city pays
6 for it or whatever, something like that.
7 Q. The government doesn't pay -- well, the government pays
8 $40, and after a period of time, $50 a day. So -- and that
9 would be paid throughout your jury service. So would that be
10 sufficient such that the jury service would not be a serious
11 economic hardship for you?
12 A. In the beginning, I didn't think it would. But I believe
13 now that it probably would be.
14 Q. Why is that?
15 A. Like I said, we're expecting another child in addition to
16 our family, and my wife's giving birth in August. So between
17 now, you know, to August, I don't know, you know, if $50 a day
18 would be enough right now.
19 Q. Without asking you how much you earn from your temporary
20 work, is it reasonably more than that so that it's a big loss
21 in income for you?
22 A. Pretty much so, yes.
23 Q. I'm sorry?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What's the arrangement between your -- with the law firm?
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1 Would the law firm -- you get paid by your temporary agency?
2 A. Through the agency.
3 Q. Through the agency. Not the law firm directly?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. Could you step out for a moment?
6 (Juror absent)
7 MR. RUHNKE: Sounds like a legitimate hardship, your
8 Honor.
9 MR. MORVILLO: The government agrees, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: All right. Bring Juror 70 back in.
11 (Juror present)
12 BY THE COURT:
13 Q. Hi, Juror 70. We'll excuse you from jury service. I
14 appreciate your participation in the process.
15 A. Thank you.
16 Q. And all of your paperwork will be taken care of by mail.
17 A. Thank you.
18 (Juror absent)
19 THE COURT: Juror 104.
20 (Juror present)
21 BY THE COURT:
22 Q. Hi.
23 A. Hi.
24 Q. Juror 104, good morning.
25 A. Good morning.
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1 Q. Since you were here last, has anything changed concerning
2 your ability to serve as a juror in this case, or has anything
3 occurred to you that may affect your ability to be here as a
4 juror in this case?
5 A. My brother is in jail right now, as of May 17th.
6 Q. Okay. And could you just tell me what your -- why it is
7 that your brother's in jail?
8 A. Endangerment of a minor?
9 Q. Okay. And that's here in New York in the state court
10 system?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. This case has nothing to do with that.
13 A. I understand.
14 Q. The parties in this case are different; the charges are
15 different. It's in federal court, not state court. No
16 connection between that case and this case.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. Is there -- and I appreciate your bringing that to my
19 attention as something that's occurred since last time.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is there anything about that case that would prevent you
22 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Okay. It now appears that the date that the final jury
25 will be chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So
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1 after today, it's unlikely you'll have to call in again or come
2 back -- actually call in before June the 18th. Does that
3 present any serious hardship for you?
4 A. My girls are graduating -- one the 18th, one the 21st.
5 Q. I'm sorry?
6 A. My daughters are going to graduate, one is the 18th, one is
7 the 21st of June.
8 Q. Okay. So -- June 18th is not a problem. You just have to
9 call in on June the 18th.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. Our case would otherwise begin with the next selection on
12 June the 21st, and you say you have a commitment on June the
13 21st?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What time of day is that?
16 A. 9:15 in the morning.
17 Q. All right. And when would you be finished with that?
18 A. Around 12:00 noon.
19 Q. About noon.
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. Okay. We may be able to work with that.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. So I appreciate you bringing that to my attention. Since
24 you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about the case or
25 have you looked at or listened to anything about the case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And that includes any conversations here at the courthouse
5 or with any other prospective jurors?
6 A. No.
7 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
8 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You indicated that serving on the jury would not be a
11 serious hardship for you. Is that right?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. You've indicated that there may be some economic hardship.
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Could you explain that to me?
16 A. We have two incomes, and if I'm not there, I don't get paid
17 from work. And then there will be only one income, and we have
18 three kids.
19 Q. Okay. But that, the loss of that income, in your family,
20 would not be a serious economic hardship for you? I mean, you
21 would be paid $40 a day, and then after a period of time, that
22 goes up to $50 a day for being here, plus transportation costs.
23 So you would have that. Would the difference then between that
24 and what you would otherwise make, that would not be a serious
25 economic hardship for you?
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1 A. It might.
2 Q. Are you sure you wouldn't get paid?
3 A. I don't get paid at work, no.
4 Q. Even though you would be on jury duty?
5 A. Even though. I only get paid one day.
6 Q. I'm not sure I follow you. You get -- what do you mean,
7 you only get paid one day?
8 A. From my work, I only get paid one day for jury duty.
9 Q. Ah. You have to tell me, please, based upon your spouse's
10 income and income you would get from being a juror, whether the
11 loss of the additional, the difference between what you would
12 get adds a juror and what you'd otherwise get from your job,
13 whether that would be a serious economic hardship for you and
14 your family?
15 A. Yes, I think it will be.
16 Q. Because initially, you had told me that it would not be a
17 serious hardship.
18 A. Yes, but -- well, I think it will, being that we have a
19 baby. I deal with most of the bills in the house.
20 Q. When you filled out the form, you indicated that you didn't
21 know whether you would be paid your salary while you serve on
22 jury duty.
23 A. No, I find that out afterwards.
24 Q. You checked?
25 A. Yes, I did.
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1 Q. Okay. Can you step out for a moment?
2 A. Sure.
3 (Juror absent)
4 MR. RUHNKE: No objection to dismissing the juror.
5 MR. MORVILLO: No objection.
6 THE COURT: All right. Bring in Juror 104.
7 (Juror present)
8 BY THE COURT:
9 Q. Hi.
10 A. Hi.
11 Q. Juror 104, we'll excuse you. And I appreciate your coming
12 in today.
13 A. Thank you very much.
14 Q. Your paperwork will be taken care of by mail.
15 A. Thank you.
16 Q. Okay? Great.
17 (Juror absent)
18 THE COURT: Juror 106.
19 (Juror present)
20 BY THE COURT:
21 Q. Good morning, Juror 106.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. Since you were here last, has anything changed concerning
24 your ability to serve as a juror or has anything occurred to
25 you that may affect your ability to be a fair and impartial
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1 juror in this case?
2 A. No, your Honor.
3 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
4 chosen will be Monday, June 21st. So after today, you won't
5 have to call back in until June the 18th. Does that present
6 any serious hardship for you?
7 A. No, Sir.
8 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about
9 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
10 the case?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And has anyone spoken to you about the case? And that
13 includes anyone here at the courthouse or any other prospective
14 jurors?
15 A. No.
16 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
17 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
18 A. We discussed how long it would be.
19 Q. Right. Anything about the --
20 A. No, nothing about the case itself.
21 Q. About the substance of the case at all?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay. Now, you indicated on the questionnaire that you're
24 a professor.
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And that you wouldn't be paid your salary while the case
2 was going on?
3 A. That's correct. I'm an adjunct professor of political
4 philosophy, so I'm only paid on a contract --
5 Q. Could you keep your voice up, please?
6 A. I'm only paid on a contract basis, so my contract is given
7 to me in August. If I'm on the case, I just won't get a
8 contract for the year, so I won't be paid.
9 Q. This would be the fall semester, essentially?
10 A. Yes, I would not be paid for the entire fall semester. So
11 I'd be unable to teach four classes, so that would be four
12 classes worth of pay that I would not receive.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. But it wouldn't affect your ability to continue to be a
16 professor, I mean, for example, to pick up with the spring
17 semester?
18 A. They would have to hire somebody in my place, so I would
19 then be in competition with whomever they had already hired.
20 So I would like to think that I would be a decent candidate to
21 beat that person out, but there's no guarantee that I would
22 ever be hired back at my university.
23 Q. But -- of course, they always have those options in any
24 event?
25 A. Yes, that is correct. At any given time they could decide
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1 not to hire me back.
2 Q. Is it fair that you had said on your questionnaire that
3 this -- serving on this jury would not be a serious hardship
4 for you?
5 A. No, I don't think it would be a serious hardship. I think
6 I could still find work as a professor when the case was over.
7 Obviously, I'd prefer to continue working at the institution I
8 am working, so it would be a hardship. I don't expect it would
9 mean that I could never work in this town again.
10 Q. And it would not be a serious economic hardship for you,
11 not to work on the one semester?
12 A. That's a little dicier. I would just receive no pay at
13 all.
14 Q. I'm sorry? Keep your voice up, please.
15 A. That's a little dicier. I would receive no pay this
16 semester. My husband works. I think that we could live on his
17 salary. Obviously, I would rather not.
18 Q. But, you know, jurors are -- come from a cross-section of
19 the community, including people with important
20 responsibilities, and it's important to all the parties in the
21 case -- to the government, to the defendants -- to have people
22 to come from a cross-section of the community, including those
23 with responsibilities.
24 So -- your husband has a very good job. You have a
25 very advanced education. What this case comes down to is not
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1 working for you as an adjunct professor for one semester. So
2 that would not be a serious hardship for you.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay. And let me just ask you one other question on that:
5 If you were chosen as a juror in this case, would you be fair
6 and impartial?
7 A. Yes, I would try my best to be, yes.
8 Q. And would anything about the length of the trial or the
9 fact that you were sitting and not working as an adjunct
10 professor interfere with your ability to be fair and impartial,
11 to give all the parties in this case your undivided attention
12 and your fair and impartial consideration?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. I didn't think it would, but I just wanted to make
15 sure.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. Now, you indicate that your husband is an attorney who
18 practices tax law; is that right?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And can you tell me, does he work for a large law firm?
21 A. Am I supposed to name them --
22 Q. No, don't tell me the name of the law firm or how large
23 they are. He's not a sole practitioner, right?
24 A. No, he works at a large firm.
25 Q. He works at a law firm. Okay. And you indicated that your
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1 father was in the Army and he served in Vietnam.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is there anything about that that would prevent you from
4 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
5 A. I don't think so.
6 Q. When you say you don't think so, do you have any reason to
7 doubt that?
8 A. I know my father didn't like being in Vietnam very much,
9 but I wasn't there, so I don't think it affects me personally.
10 Q. Okay. You indicated that you were -- you served in one
11 prior jury in a criminal case in the Bronx. And -- I'm sorry,
12 and you said -- no, it was a grand jury.
13 A. Right, a grand jury in the Bronx for about a month.
14 Q. Okay. And so you've never been on a trial jury?
15 A. No.
16 Q. With respect to the grand jury, do you understand that the
17 function of the grand jury is to consider whether indictments
18 should be returned, and the standard for returning indictments
19 is very different from the standard that applies at a trial?
20 A. Yes, I understand that.
21 Q. Okay. Is there anything about your experience being on the
22 grand jury that would prevent you from being a fair and
23 impartial juror in this case?
24 A. No, it was a perfectly fine experience.
25 Q. I'm sorry?
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1 A. It was a fine experience.
2 Q. Okay. You indicated that as a professor of political
3 science, you have lots of contact with people interested in
4 lobbying. Is there anything about that that would prevent you
5 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
6 A. I don't think so, no.
7 Q. Okay. And on a couple of questions -- you've never gone
8 through the process of jury selection before?
9 A. No, I haven't. I was too detailed?
10 Q. No, no, not at all. Not at all. It's just that, when you
11 say "I don't think so" -- people express themselves in
12 different ways, and some people say, I don't believe so, I
13 don't think so, and when you answer my questions, you answer
14 with some confidence, "I don't think so". And when you say you
15 don't think so, does that mean, no?
16 A. Yes. I'm a professor of political philosophy, so I guess
17 that's the way we tend to express ourselves, in levels of
18 uncertainty. But yes, when I say, I don't think so, I mean,
19 No; no problem.
20 Q. If you have any doubts about any of your questions, just
21 tell me.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. All right? Now, you mention that you have a friend who
24 works for the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence?
25 A. Yes, I do.
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1 Q. And is there anything about that that would prevent you
2 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You mentioned that you have a close friend -- oh, by the
5 way, you mentioned that you use the Internet. Do you use the
6 Internet for news?
7 A. Yeah, I read the news, I watch CNN, yeah, I use the
8 Internet daily.
9 Q. What news do you watch on the Internet? What sources do
10 you use on the Internet for news?
11 A. I have an AOL connection, so the news, basic news, comes up
12 every time I turn on the computer. I read salon.com -- I'm
13 trying to think what else. Those would be the basics.
14 Q. Okay. You mentioned you had a close friend who was a
15 victim of crime. Can you tell me who that was -- again, don't
16 mention any names. Just how close a friend and what the nature
17 of the crime was?
18 A. A friend whose wedding I attended, so that's how close a
19 friend. Lived in my neighborhood. I should describe the --
20 Q. No. Pretty close friend.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What was the nature of the crime against that person?
23 A. He was mugged, mugged and beaten up, and had his wallet
24 stolen.
25 Q. And were any charges brought against the person who did
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1 that?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Was the person ever found?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You mention that your brother sued someone over a traffic
6 accident?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did that case ever go to trial?
9 A. Nope.
10 Q. You mention that you had been -- that you and your husband
11 were sued over a traffic accident. Did that case ever go to
12 trial?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And you had two friends who were mugged and ended up in a
15 hospital. Was there a lawsuit over that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Or was that -- one of the people you had told me before who
18 was mugged?
19 A. Yes, there were two people that I know who have been
20 mugged. The first was one I just told you about. The second
21 was a friend of mine in graduate school.
22 Q. Okay. And were charges brought in either of those cases?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And you have a friend from high school who went to prison
25 for a few months. How long ago was that?
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1 A. How long ago was I in high school. 1985.
2 Q. And did you visit him?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Now, with respect to all of these incidents and all of your
5 experiences with the police and the courts and the government,
6 the state, and the lawyers involved, is there anything in any
7 of those experiences that would prevent you from being a fair
8 and impartial juror in this case?
9 A. I don't think so -- no.
10 Q. You mention that you were a member of the ACLU. Is there
11 anything about that that would prevent you from being a fair
12 and impartial juror in this case?
13 A. I believe that the ACLU has a position on this case, or
14 certain chapters of the ACLU may have a position on this case.
15 Q. Okay. Do you know what their position is?
16 A. My understanding -- and I haven't checked since I was
17 called for this case, so I only know what I vaguely recall from
18 before I was called for this case -- my recollection is that
19 the ACLU has some sense that the taping of conversations
20 between attorneys and their clients is inappropriate and may be
21 a threat to Civil Rights.
22 Q. And -- I'm sorry, what?
23 A. And may be a threat to Civil Rights and liberties.
24 Q. Okay. Any other position that you know of?
25 A. That's the only position that I recall.
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1 Q. Okay. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, I would
2 be the person who determines whether evidence is admitted or
3 not admitted. And I would be the person who determines if the
4 evidence in the case consists of conversations between one or
5 more attorneys and a client.
6 If as a juror you heard that evidence, you're hearing
7 that evidence because I've determined as a matter of law that
8 you can hear that evidence.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. And then it's up to you and the other jurors to decide,
11 based upon the evidence or lack of evidence, whether the
12 charges in the indictment have been proven beyond a reasonable
13 doubt. Do you understand that?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Now, any thoughts, feelings, positions of the ACLU with
16 respect to any of the issues in the case or the admissibility
17 of any evidence in the case is completely irrelevant to your
18 determination of the facts.
19 A. Yes, I understand that.
20 Q. Is there anything about the ACLU's position that would
21 prevent you from following my instructions?
22 A. I've been a member of the ACLU for a --
23 Q. I'm sorry?
24 A. I've been a member of the ACLU for a pretty long time. I
25 wouldn't be a member, I wouldn't give them money, if I didn't
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1 trust them and think that they were doing pretty good work. If
2 I was told to put that out of my mind, I would do my best to do
3 so. But, you know, obviously that might be an issue for some
4 people. I don't know.
5 Q. I'm sorry, please keep your voice up.
6 A. Sure. I understand, I think, that the ACLU does not
7 determine what is admissible in this court. You determine
8 what's admissible in this court.
9 (Continued on next page)
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1 Q. And you are an intelligent and perceptive person. Now, you
2 have to -- you said it may be an issue. People come into court
3 having seen, heard, read things, and that is understandable
4 with any case that has received some publicity or which people
5 have spoken about before. The issue is whether you would put
6 that aside and whether you could put that aside and follow my
7 instructions on the law and decide the case based solely upon
8 the evidence or the lack of evidence here in court and you
9 forthrightly said there is an issue there and so now you have
10 thought about the issue and what I have said, so tell me, would
11 you follow my instructions?
12 Would you consider that evidence along with all of the
13 other evidence in the case without any biases or prejudices
14 towards that evidence, just follow my instructions on the law
15 and decide the case based solely on the evidence or lack of
16 evidence and my instructions on president law?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Are you sure of that?
19 A. A philosopher is never sure of anything. Yes, I understand
20 what the jury system is about. I understand my duties as a
21 juror and I would live up to those duties as a juror.
22 Q. And can you do that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And the reason I go through this is the parties are
25 entitled to have a jury who goes into this process who are
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1 committed to being fair and impartial and who affirm under
2 their oath to me not that they will try or do their best or so,
3 but that they will be fair and impartial, that they will
4 consider the evidence and lack of evidence and my instructions
5 on the law and that they will do that.
6 A. I understand.
7 Q. And so will do you that?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. And can you do that?
10 A. Yes. Yes, just yes.
11 Q. You mentioned that you had a friend who worked in the
12 Queens DA's office some years ago and you also mentioned that
13 you have a former roommate who works as a public defender. The
14 former roommate, does that person still work as a public
15 defender?
16 A. She worked as a public defender in Pittsburgh for about 5
17 years and now is in private practice.
18 Q. Okay.
19 Anything about -- and your friend in the Queens DA's
20 office, no longer works there?
21 A. He no longer works in that office. He worked there for
22 about 2 years and now is in private practice.
23 Q. All right. And you mentioned that you have a friend who is
24 a clerk for a judge?
25 A. Yes, I currently have a friend who clerks now for a
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1 district court judge up in Albany.
2 Q. Okay.
3 Is there anything about your relationships with any of
4 those people that would prevent you from being a fair and
5 impartial juror in this case?
6 A. No.
7 Q. We have gone over the issue of the attorney-client. There
8 are a couple of other questions which directed your attention
9 to some other kinds of evidence, bugs or wiretaps, and evidence
10 that was seized during searches of various places, as well as
11 evidence obtained by conducting surveillance and taking
12 photographs. And in response to those questions and whether it
13 would affect your ability to be fair and impartial, you said
14 no, not if they were legal. And, as I told you, before
15 evidence gets admitted here in court it's up to me to make the
16 determination of whether the evidence is legally admissible
17 here in court and so that is not an issue for the jury. It's
18 an issue for me. And any evidence admitted in court you would
19 have to consider in the same way as you would any other
20 evidence.
21 Would you do that?
22 A. I think that again maybe --
23 Q. Keep your voice up.
24 A. Again, perhaps this goes back to the fact that I am a
25 member of the ACLU. I understand that sort of the boundaries
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1 of what is a legal search have been extended under Ashcroft's
2 Justice Department. I personally am not particularly
3 comfortable with that but I do understand that in this court my
4 duty as a juror is to look at the evidence in front of me and
5 that you are the person who decides what is admissible so if I
6 am hearing it as a juror it's already been determined to be
7 admissible.
8 Is that a complete enough answer?
9 Q. Almost.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. The next question is in response to both of those
12 questions, would it prevent you from being fair and impartial,
13 and you said, no, as long as the searches were legal. And what
14 I have told you is that before any evidence was admitted I make
15 the determination that the evidence is in fact legally
16 admissible, so is there anything about your views about the way
17 in which evidence is obtained that would prevent you from being
18 fair and impartial considering all of the evidence, or lack of
19 evidence in the case, and deciding the case based solely on the
20 evidence or lack of evidence here in court?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you have any question about that?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Is there anything about all of your relations with lawyers
25 that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in
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1 this case?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You indicate that your aunt has visited Egypt a few years
4 ago. Is there anything about that that would prevent you from
5 being fair and impartial?
6 A. No. It was just a vacation.
7 Q. Okay.
8 Do you recall where your aunt went?
9 A. I think she saw the pyramids.
10 Q. About how long ago was that?
11 A. About 2 years ago and she spent ten days.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 You know lots of students of Middle Eastern descent.
14 Do you recall any specific countries that they are from or
15 descended from?
16 A. I don't really, unless it comes up in class, unless a
17 student volunteers it in class, but I have students of all
18 races and ethnic backgrounds.
19 Q. Okay.
20 Do you have any biases or prejudices against people of
21 Middle Eastern descent or of the Islamic faith?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You said you are not very knowledgeable about Islam.
24 Can you identify any sources of knowledge as you sit
25 here today?
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1 A. Oh, dear, I have had a world religion class when I was an
2 undergraduate, it would have been about ten years ago. To be
3 perfectly honest I don't really remember much of that class but
4 in terms of the sources of my knowledge that would be about it.
5 Q. Okay.
6 You have already indicated some views with respect to
7 the Attorney General and you indicated that you thought that
8 there was a law enforcement bias for or against people of the
9 Middle East.
10 Could you just explain to me what you meant by that?
11 A. Which part, the Attorney General or the law enforcement
12 bias or both?
13 Q. The law enforcement bias.
14 A. It struck me that after 9/11 people of Middle Eastern
15 descent were targeted for particular questioning. It seemed to
16 me that people of Middle Eastern descent were singled out for
17 questioning, whether appropriately or inappropriately singled
18 out, so I suppose that is a bias.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A couple of questions.
21 First, if you were chosen as a juror in this case you
22 would have to decide the case based solely on upon the evidence
23 or lack of evidence. One of the issues that is not for you is
24 what the motive for the case was or anything like that. Your
25 role is to determine whether based upon the evidence or lack of
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1 evidence the charges in the indictment have been proven beyond
2 a reasonable doubt at trial based upon the evidence or lack of
3 evidence. And can you do that?
4 A. I understand that. I can do that.
5 Q. Okay.
6 And would any of your views or impressions about law
7 enforcement prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror
8 in this case?
9 A. I don't think so. No, I don't think so. I know you want
10 yes or no.
11 Q. Well, look, both parties in the case, all parties, the
12 government and the defendants, are all entitled to have a fair
13 and partial jury in this case. And that is a jury who is
14 committed to be fair and impartial and who looks deeply into
15 themselves and says I will be fair and impartial. I will
16 listen to the evidence and he decide this case based solely
17 upon the evidence or lack of evidence.
18 So it's up to you to tell me, do you have any doubt
19 whether you could be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
20 A. Yes, I do have doubts. I would be dishonest if I said I
21 had no doubts. Like I said, I teach philosophy. My job is to
22 doubt.
23 Q. Okay.
24 Could you step out for a moment?
25 A. Yes.
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1 (Juror absent)
2 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, the government would move to
3 strike this juror for cause. She clearly has an
4 anti-government bias that is reflected in a number of answers
5 she has given and she obviously has indicated she has doubts as
6 to her ability to be fair to all sides.
7 MR. RUHNKE: We don't like it but we agree.
8 THE COURT: Candid, and true.
9 I will strike 106.
10 MR. TIGAR: If your Honor please, we consent also but
11 we don't think having an anti-government bias, whatever that
12 is, is ever a basis to challenge a juror for cause.
13 THE COURT: The juror is rightfully challenged for
14 cause because she has doubts about her ability to be a fair and
15 impartial juror in this case and to put aside any prior
16 conceptions that she may have about the case and to decide the
17 case based solely upon the evidence or lack of evidence.
18 MR. TIGAR: It was that last answer that caused us to
19 consent, your Honor. But I didn't wish to seem to agree with
20 that other presumption.
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 (Juror present)
23 BY THE COURT:
24 Q. Juror 106, I will excuse you.
25 I appreciate your having participated in the process
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1 and all of your paperwork will be taken care of by mail so you
2 can now return home. Again, I appreciate your participating in
3 the process.
4 A. Okay, great.
5 Thank you.
6 (Juror absent)
7 THE COURT: I think we should take a ten-minute break
8 before we continue.
9 (Recess)
10 THE COURT: Please be seated.
11 107 was stricken so that brings us to 109.
12 Let's call in 109.
13 (Juror present)
14 BY THE COURT:
15 Q. Please have a seat.
16 Good afternoon, Juror 109.
17 Since you were here last has anything changed
18 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
19 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
20 fair and impartial juror in this case?
21 A. Nothing has changed.
22 Q. Please keep your voice up. Talk into the microphone. It's
23 a big courtroom.
24 Thank you.
25 A. All right.
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1 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
2 chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st, so after today
3 it's unlikely that you will be called to come back before June
4 18th, but before you have to call in is June 18.
5 Does that present any serious hardship for you?
6 A. Not at this point.
7 Q. Okay.
8 Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone
9 about this case or have you looked at or listened to anything
10 about the case?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
13 any conversations here at the courthouse or with any of the
14 other prospective jurors?
15 A. No.
16 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
17 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
18 A. They didn't say really nothing about the case. I mean, I
19 never heard about this.
20 Q. Okay. All right.
21 You mentioned that you live with your brother and
22 mother?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is your brother employed?
25 A. Not at the moment, no. He dislocated his knee.
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1 Q. He dislocated his knee?
2 A. Kneecap.
3 Q. Keep your voice up. Okay?
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. What was the last occupation that your brother had?
6 A. He was working for a rent-a-car place.
7 Q. I am sorry?
8 A. A rent-a-car place.
9 Q. A rent-a-car place, okay.
10 Does your mother work outside the home?
11 A. No, she is retired.
12 Q. Okay.
13 And what did she do before she retired?
14 A. I know it was working with airline tickets and all that
15 kind of stuff, Rand McNally.
16 Q. Okay.
17 You indicated that you had been called for jury
18 service on a few other occasions, is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you ever actually serve on a jury?
21 A. Just once.
22 Q. Where was the jury that you served on?
23 A. It was here.
24 Q. In this courthouse?
25 A. Not in this courthouse, no, the other one.
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1 Q. 500 Pearl street, the one across the street?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Federal court?
4 A. I don't think it was federal court.
5 Q. It was state court?
6 A. Probably state.
7 Q. About how long ago was that?
8 A. I have no idea. It was a while ago.
9 Q. Okay.
10 And was that a civil case?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You had indicated that it was something about an oil
13 company?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And how long did that case last?
16 A. 4 days.
17 Q. Okay. And don't tell me what it was, but did the jury
18 reach a verdict in that case?
19 A. No, the judge decided.
20 Q. The judge --
21 A. The judge decided.
22 Q. The judge decided the case?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay.
25 And the jury never got to deliberate in that case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay.
3 Is there anything about that experience and with the
4 court system and the lawyers and the nature of the case, or
5 anything, anything about that experience that would prevent you
6 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay.
9 You indicated that you mostly got any information
10 about the news from watching TV?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And are there any particular TV news programs that you
13 watch?
14 A. I mean, it varies from whenever I am looking at TV because
15 I work two full-time jobs so basically it's only half an hour
16 or so of time watching news.
17 Q. Okay.
18 If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would
19 have to decide the case based solely on the evidence or lack of
20 evidence that is presented here in court. Do you understand
21 that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And would you do that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, it is possible that there could be publicity about the
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1 case and I know you don't listen to the news very much, but if
2 you were selected as a juror, you would have to not look at or
3 listen to or read anything about the case and if you saw
4 something in the newspaper or on the news about the case, you
5 would have to just turn away.
6 Do you understand that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And would you do that?
9 A. That is what I was instructed to do.
10 Q. In response to one of the questions on the questionnaire
11 you said that would pose some difficulty for you.
12 It may have been a mistake. It was in a series of
13 questions that you were answering yes to and then you answered
14 yes to that question. So let me ask it of you again.
15 Would it be hard for you to follow my instructions on
16 the law and to not look at or listen to anything to do with the
17 case?
18 A. No, it wouldn't be hard.
19 Q. Okay.
20 As you can tell from all of my questions the
21 fundamental issue is whether there is anything in your personal
22 history or life experience that would prevent you from being a
23 fair and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one
24 final time whether there is anything, whether I have asked you
25 about it specifically or not, that would prevent you from being
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1 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
2 A. Nothing, no.
3 Q. Okay.
4 Could you step out just for a moment.
5 (Juror absent)
6 MR. TIGAR: Can I have a moment, your Honor?
7 THE COURT: Yes.
8 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I believe the juror
9 indicated that he works two full-time jobs. I am not sure
10 whether he does the same job at two different places, if that
11 is what he meant, or whether there was another job that he did,
12 and if you can follow up on that issue I would appreciate it.
13 THE COURT: Sure.
14 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I was confused about his
15 answer concerning his prior jury service. He, on his
16 questionnaire, said he had served in the U.S. District Court in
17 White Plains and he has lived in Ossining for 24 years.
18 However, I understood him to say today that it was in state
19 court and he said "up there" and it was --
20 THE COURT: No, "down here". Down here across the
21 street.
22 MR. TIGAR: If he lived in Ossining he of course could
23 not have served in a state court jury in New York County and
24 that was my confusion. I couldn't figure out what that jury
25 service was.
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1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 MR. RUHNKE: Judge, just one additional comment.
3 I was looking at question 14 of the questionnaire and
4 I am not sure if I understand this to be the juror's current
5 place of employment.
6 Does he name his place of employment? There are two
7 places listed. That doesn't present a problem to me, I don't
8 think, but I wanted to flag it so if anybody else has a
9 problem.
10 THE COURT: I don't see it as a problem but I thank
11 you for bringing it to my attention.
12 Anyone else? I mean, I have already been asked to ask
13 him about -- that he has two full-time jobs and I will ask him
14 if both of them are in-house keeping.
15 MR. RUHNKE: That is of course fine. But the other
16 thing is this is a juror to an unusual degree has not had much
17 to tell us about much of anything and I am wondering if you can
18 ask him how he feels about serving in a case involving
19 terrorism just to hear him express some thoughts.
20 THE COURT: I will ask him some more about his
21 employment and I will ask him about anything of the allegations
22 in the case. He answered all of the questions on those
23 subjects as no and these were very detailed, numerous
24 questions. I will have him talk some more about what he does
25 and explore his jury service. Okay.
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1 (Juror present)
2 BY THE COURT:
3 Q. Juror 109, let me just follow up on a few other questions.
4 You told us that you worked at two full-time jobs.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay.
7 Are both of them in-house keeping?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you work at two separate institutions?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay.
12 On the questionnaire you had indicated that there were
13 three times that you had called or that you were called for
14 prior jury service, is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 (Continued on next page)
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Now, can you just help me, over what period of time have
3 you been called? What's the most recent time that you were
4 called?
5 A. I can't remember on that one. I mean, it's --
6 Q. You can't remember. Do you remember specifically that it
7 was three times or -- that you were actually called to come
8 down for jury service?
9 A. Three or four; I'm not sure. Because -- in my hometown, I
10 think I was called twice. I'm not sure.
11 Q. For all the times that you were called, do you -- you were
12 only sitting on a jury on only one case?
13 A. Only on one case.
14 Q. One case?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. When you put the answer down on your questionnaire and you
17 were asked what courts you were called in, you said the
18 Southern District court, White Plains and Ossining?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. When you were called in Ossining, was that a local court?
21 A. That's where I live at, in Ossining.
22 Q. And in that case, you did not actually serve on --
23 A. No.
24 Q. You were just called and didn't have to serve?
25 A. I didn't have to serve, no.
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1 Q. Okay. In White Plains, when you were called, do you recall
2 if that was in federal court or state court in White Plains?
3 A. I have no idea.
4 Q. Don't know. But you recall a time that you were called in
5 White Plains?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And the other court that you listed was the Southern
8 District court. Which court were you referring to -- let me --
9 A. It's here. But it's -- it wasn't in this building.
10 Q. I see. It's across the street.
11 A. It's the other one, yeah.
12 Q. The courthouse across the street?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Okay. When you said that you actually sat as a juror, that
15 was in the courthouse across the street?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And that's what you were referring to by the Southern
18 District?
19 A. Yeah, I guess, yeah. But I'm not sure which -- all of that
20 stuff.
21 Q. Well, you're right. You're absolutely right. And I could
22 have confused you because the courthouse across the street,
23 just like this courthouse, is the Southern District of
24 New York. We have two courthouses -- this is the federal
25 court -- and so it was in that courthouse across the street
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1 that you served on that case involving an oil company?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. For about four days.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And -- but the jurors didn't have to reach a decision in
6 that case, the judge did that?
7 A. The judge did it.
8 Q. Okay. When we got together last, I explained to you in
9 general what the case was about. Is there anything about the
10 allegations in the case that would prevent you from being a
11 fair and impartial juror in this case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. If you were selected as a juror, would you give all of the
14 parties in this case a fair trial?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Would you listen to the evidence or lack of evidence and my
17 instructions on the law and decide the case based solely on the
18 evidence or lack of evidence and my instructions on the law?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. Can you step out again? Just for a moment. I'm
21 sorry to keep on calling you in and out.
22 (Juror absent)
23 THE COURT: All right. No further questions? No
24 challenges for cause? Let's call 109 back in.
25 Thank you for clearing up my error.
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1 (Juror present)
2 BY THE COURT:
3 Q. Juror 109, you're still in the jury selection process, and
4 Mr. Fletcher will give you a piece of paper telling you what
5 number to call back on June the 18th, and you'll call in and
6 receive further instructions at that time.
7 Please remember to follow my continuing instructions:
8 Please don't talk about this case at all. Remember not to look
9 at or listen to, read anything to do with the case. If you
10 should see something, just turn away. Remember, as I'll tell
11 all of the jurors, please keep an open mind until you've heard
12 all of the evidence, I've instructed you on the law, and you've
13 gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. Fairness
14 and justice requires that you do that. All right? Have a very
15 good day.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. And you're excused. Please call in on June the 18th.
18 Thank you.
19 A. All right, thank you.
20 (Juror absent)
21 THE COURT: Juror 110.
22 DEPUTY CLERK: 110.
23 U.S. MARSHAL: 110 -- 117's here.
24 DEPUTY CLERK: Okay. Well, bring 110 in.
25 (Juror present)
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Please, have a seat. Good afternoon, Juror 110. You had
3 indicated on your form that you had a serious hardship if you
4 were chosen.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. For this case?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And could you explain to me what the serious hardship would
9 be?
10 A. Yes. My mother was in a nursing home, and she's actually
11 unfortunately dying at this time. She has Alzheimer's and --
12 Q. Please keep your voice up, talk into the microphone.
13 A. My mother has Alzheimer's and right now she has gangrene.
14 Q. I --
15 A. You can't hear me?
16 Q. No.
17 A. Do I go closer to this?
18 Q. Yes, or bring the microphone closer towards you.
19 A. How's that?
20 Q. Wonderful.
21 A. Better?
22 Q. Much.
23 A. My mother's in a nursing home. She has advanced stages of
24 Alzheimer's, and right now she has gangrene setting in her left
25 lower foot, and it's just a matter of time for the infection to
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1 go into her. I actually have a letter from the nursing home
2 also.
3 Q. All right. Do you actively see your mother in the course
4 of this time?
5 A. I've been -- I was going five days a week, now I'm going
6 seven days. I'm just watching her, staying with her.
7 Q. Okay. We sit from -- I know you also work.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. We sit from 9:30 until 4:30.
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. So it would really be like a substitute for your job over
12 this period of time. Is there -- would that interfere with
13 your ability to be able to go to the nursing home?
14 A. I sit -- at night, I have the phone right next to me.
15 Waiting for them to call. Because she's just doing so poorly.
16 It's a very difficult time.
17 Q. Right. You'd still be home every night if you sat on this
18 case.
19 A. But -- it's not that I wouldn't want to serve, because I
20 work for a court. But I don't know how I would have my mind
21 where it should be at this time.
22 Q. Okay, could you step out a moment?
23 (Juror absent)
24 THE COURT: May we excuse the juror?
25 MR. RUHNKE: Yes.
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1 MR. MORVILLO: The government agrees, your Honor.
2 (Juror present)
3 BY THE COURT:
4 Q. Juror 110, I'll excuse you. I appreciate your coming in.
5 And you're free to go home, and your paperwork will be taken
6 care of by mail.
7 A. Thank you.
8 (Juror absent)
9 DEPUTY CLERK: 117.
10 MR. RUHNKE: Juror 117 is coming in?
11 THE COURT: 117. We're waiting on 113 and 116.
12 (Juror present)
13 BY THE COURT:
14 Q. Hi.
15 A. Hi.
16 Q. Good morning -- good afternoon, Juror 117. Let me ask you
17 some preliminary questions. Since you were here last, has
18 anything changed concerning your ability to serve as a juror in
19 this case? Or has anything occurred to you that may affect
20 your ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
21 A. No.
22 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
23 chosen in this case will be Monday, June the 21st. So after
24 today, it's unlikely that you'll have to call back or come back
25 until June the 18th. Does that present any serious hardship
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1 for you?
2 A. No, but I go on vacation in August.
3 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in the case, we would -- it's
4 unlikely that we'll be taking off any time in August. We would
5 be sitting through because, among other things, the number of
6 jurors that we have in the case will potentially have
7 conflicting plans. So we would be sitting, likely sitting, for
8 all of August. So would that present a serious hardship for
9 you?
10 A. I've already paid for my trip.
11 Q. Could you reschedule it or get the money back for the
12 tickets?
13 A. Honestly, I don't know. I can find out.
14 Q. Usually, with this much advance notice, I mean, you could
15 get credit for the tickets to use on your next vacation.
16 A. I'll ask.
17 Q. What?
18 A. I'll ask. It's no problem. I mean, it's already paid.
19 Q. I'm sorry?
20 A. I already paid for it. I paid for it in January.
21 Q. But assuming that you could get credit against your --
22 A. It's no problem.
23 Q. Okay. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone
24 about this case or have you looked at or listened to anything
25 about the case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And that includes any conversations here at the courthouse
5 with any other prospective jurors?
6 A. No.
7 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
8 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
9 A. No.
10 Q. In answering the questionnaire, you said that the case
11 would presented a serious economic hardship for you because you
12 wouldn't be paid your salary while you were on jury duty. And
13 yet at the same time, you work for the --
14 A. I work for the city.
15 Q. You work for the city.
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. And my understanding is that as a governmental employer,
18 the city does pay.
19 A. Yes, but what I was trying to say is that -- okay, I'm a
20 social worker. I have clients. And my cases would have to go
21 to somebody else, and just because the Court says, you have to
22 be here, that doesn't mean the supervisor's going to be happy
23 with it. That's what I was trying to say.
24 Q. Right. But it wouldn't be an economic hardship for you --
25 A. No, they said I would get paid.
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1 Q. And I realize that it would cause some disruption because
2 clients -- some other people to take over your clients?
3 A. Take over my cases, yes.
4 Q. We usually don't sit on Fridays. And we obviously don't
5 sit on weekends.
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. And we're through by 4:30 every day. So to the extent that
8 you wanted to follow through on some of your cases and clients
9 in the evenings, on Fridays --
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. -- you could do that?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. So considering all of that, this case would not be a
16 serious hardship for you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay. You mentioned that your father was decease and that
19 your mother is retired.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you tell me what your father -- what your father did?
22 A. He worked for Transit and then he was a cab driver.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. My mother used to work for the Board of Higher Education,
25 City College.
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1 Q. Okay. Thank you.
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. You mentioned that you had served on several jury trials.
4 A. Yes. Special grand jury, I think was 18 months, and then
5 they gave us an additional six months.
6 Q. Okay. Let me start with the jury trials, the trial juries.
7 Okay?
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. How many times did you serve as a trial juror?
10 A. I honestly don't remember.
11 Q. As best you can recall?
12 A. Let's say four, five times.
13 Q. Four or five times.
14 A. Yeah, I'm not sure.
15 Q. Was that in state court or federal court?
16 A. State.
17 Q. And what kinds of cases?
18 A. That was civil, civil suits.
19 Q. And in those cases, did the jury reach a verdict -- don't
20 tell me what it was.
21 A. Okay. I remember one was settled out of court, and I
22 think -- one or two that we came to a decision.
23 Q. I'm sorry, one or two?
24 A. Two that we came to a decision. And one I remember it was
25 settled out of court.
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1 Q. Okay. Have you ever sat on a federal case?
2 A. No.
3 Q. No. And have you ever sat in a criminal case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. No. Is there anything about your experience in those civil
6 cases that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
7 juror in this case?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And you mention that you have also sat as a -- on a grand
10 jury?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. Do you recall how many times you sat on a grand jury?
13 A. One time, it was for 18 months, and they gave us an
14 additional six months.
15 Q. One time for 18 months. And when was that? Years ago?
16 A. Yeah, about four or five years ago. It's been awhile.
17 Q. Been awhile.
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. Do you understand that if you -- that what a grand jury
20 does is it considers evidence and --
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. -- returns indictments?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. And that the standard of proof in a grand jury is different
25 than the standards of proof that applies at trial in a criminal
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1 case? In a criminal case at trial, the government must prove
2 the allegations in the indictment beyond a reasonable doubt
3 based upon the evidence or lack of evidence?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you understand that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And at trial, as I told you in my preliminary instructions,
8 the indictment is simply a charge, and at trial, the jury can
9 not place any weight at all on the fact that there is an
10 indictment or that there are charges. That's only the way in
11 which the case is commenced in court. The jury has to consider
12 only the evidence or lack of evidence in court to see whether
13 the government has proved the charges in the indictment beyond
14 a reasonable doubt. Do you understand that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And will you follow that instruction?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. Is there anything about your service on the grand
19 jury that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
20 juror in this case?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You mention that you watch TV programs for news. Could you
23 tell me what particular TV programs, if any, that you recall?
24 A. I watch CSI, LA Law -- I happen to like the criminal
25 programs.
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1 Q. Okay. Those are not -- those are programs about the law,
2 but they're not news.
3 A. Oh. I watch CNN -- if that's what you mean -- and
4 Channel 5.
5 Q. CNN and --
6 A. Channel 5, yeah.
7 Q. Okay. You mentioned that you're not very knowledgeable
8 about Islam.
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you recall any specific sources of knowledge that you
11 have about Islam? Anything you've heard, read?
12 A. The only thing I know about the Islamic religion is -- I
13 really don't. I'm Presbyterian, so I really don't.
14 Q. Okay. Do you have any biases or prejudices towards any
15 people of Middle Eastern descent or any people of the Islamic
16 faith?
17 A. No.
18 Q. The jurors who sit in this case will be instructed that
19 they must face their decisions entirely on the evidence that's
20 produced here in court and not from any outside source or
21 preexisting opinion or attitude. Can you do that?
22 A. Sure.
23 Q. Okay. And can you do that despite anything that you may
24 have seen, heard or read about anything? Can you decide this
25 case based solely on the evidence here in court, or the lack of
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1 evidence, and my instructions on the law?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You look surprised that I would even ask those questions.
4 A. No.
5 Q. In answering the questions on the questionnaire, there were
6 a series of questions which you had answered no to, and then I
7 changed sort of the way which the questions were asked, and --
8 so when I ask those questions on the questionnaire you said no.
9 A. Oh.
10 Q. Was that a mistake?
11 A. Yes. Actually, I had to get to the hospital to get my
12 shots, and they -- it was so prolonged and I had to get there,
13 and I just -- did that.
14 Q. If you were -- there were a series of questions at the end
15 that you must have gotten tired of answering, because you
16 didn't answer some of them.
17 A. Didn't answer. I had to leave.
18 Q. So let me ask those questions of you.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. Under the law, a defendant is presumed to be innocent, and
21 the defendant cannot be found guilty of any crime charged in
22 the indictment unless a jury, after having heard all of the
23 evidence in the case, unanimously decides that the evidence
24 proves the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Will
25 you accept and apply that rule of law?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In a criminal case, the burden of proof remains with the
3 prosecution. In order for the jury to return a verdict of
4 guilty against the defendant, the prosecution must prove beyond
5 a reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty. A person
6 charged with a crime has absolutely no burden to prove that the
7 defendant is not guilty.
8 Will you accept and apply that rule of law?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The jury is required by law to make its decision solely on
11 the basis of evidence or lack of evidence presented here in
12 court, and not on the basis of conjecture, suspicion, sympathy
13 or any prejudice that a juror may have. The juror must keep an
14 open mind until the jurors have heard all of the evidence, the
15 Court has charged them on the law, and they've returned to the
16 jury room to begin their deliberations.
17 Will you accept and apply that rule of law?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. It is likely that this case will receive ongoing media
20 attention. And the Court wants to make sure that the case is
21 decided solely on the evidence here in the courtroom and not
22 based on things that are said outside the courtroom. So
23 accordingly, the Court will instruct the jurors that the jurors
24 must avoid reading about the case in the newspapers, listening
25 to any radio or television reports, or reading any Internet
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1 coverage or discussion about the case. The Court will also
2 direct that the jurors must avoid discussing the case with
3 friends or family during the course of the trial.
4 Will you follow the Court's instructions?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is there anything about the nature of the case as I
7 explained it to you that causes you to believe that you should
8 not serve as a juror in this case?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Is there anything that has come up in the course of
11 answering the questionnaire or in answering the questions that
12 I have posed to you today that creates any doubt in your mind
13 as to whether you could be a fair, objective and impartial
14 juror in this case?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you have any reason that causes you to doubt your
17 ability to serve as a fair and impartial juror in this case?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Is there any additional information that I've not asked you
20 about which you feel I and the lawyers in the case should know
21 about you before you are selected as a juror?
22 A. No.
23 Q. All right. As you can tell from -- oh, by the way, when
24 was the last time you actually served on a civil jury?
25 A. Oh, God.
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1 Q. Long time?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. It's been awhile.
5 Q. As you can tell from all of these questions, the
6 fundamental issue is whether there is anything in your personal
7 history or life experience that would prevent you from acting
8 as a fair and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you
9 one final time whether there is anything, whether I've asked
10 you about it specifically or not, that would prevent you from
11 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. All right. Thank you. Could you step out just for a
14 moment?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 (Juror absent)
17 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, the juror said that she had to
18 go to the hospital to get shots. That's new information for
19 us. And in her questionnaire, at 1-C, she had checked "not
20 applicable" under physical and mental, as distinct from "no".
21 I don't know if there's any significance to that. But an
22 inquiry about whether there's anything about her ongoing
23 medical treatment --
24 THE COURT: Sure.
25 MR. TIGAR: -- that would interfere with her jury
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1 service. And an additional follow-up question, as a social
2 worker, it was unclear to me what she does, and perhaps the
3 Court could ask, does she have any contact with lawyers or with
4 the court system.
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 MR. TIGAR: That would be very helpful.
7 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor -- are you finished -- do
8 you want to go on?
9 MR. TIGAR: No.
10 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I believe Question 107
11 should be pursued. It may just be a mistake, given her other
12 answers.
13 THE COURT: Right. I missed that. Thank you.
14 MR. MORVILLO: And additionally, your Honor, if you
15 would just inquire with respect to her grand jury service,
16 whether it was federal or state.
17 THE COURT: Sure.
18 (Juror present)
19 BY THE COURT:
20 Q. Hi.
21 A. Hi.
22 Q. I just had a few follow-up questions.
23 You had mentioned -- and I, as I said the last time,
24 and also in the questionnaire, I certainly don't mean to pry; I
25 just had a few follow-up questions -- you indicate that you're
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1 a social worker. And in the course of your social work, do you
2 have any contact with lawyers or law enforcement personnel?
3 A. I work for HRE. I work for the Medicaid department now.
4 And prior to that, I was with Welfare. So unless they were a
5 client -- that's the only way. I've never been to court cases
6 or anything -- no, none of that, no.
7 Q. Okay. It's not your area.
8 A. Huh-uh. I just handle the cases.
9 Q. You mentioned that you had gotten, when you were here last,
10 that you had gotten some shots. Do you take any ongoing
11 medication for anything?
12 A. I'm asthmatic.
13 Q. Asthmatic?
14 A. Uh-huh. And I have a vitamin deficiency.
15 Q. Okay. Is there anything about that medication that makes
16 it difficult or uncomfortable for you to serve as a juror?
17 A. No. I almost have 30 years of working. So no, it does
18 not.
19 Q. All right. Could you tell me, with respect to your grand
20 jury experience, whether it was in federal or state court?
21 A. Federal.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. We just -- the same thing you were saying, we just
24 determined whether or not we had enough evidence to take it to
25 court.
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1 Q. Okay. Was that down here?
2 A. Uh-huh -- not here -- (indicating).
3 Q. The other courthouse?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. Okay. And in response to one question, let me go over
6 another principal of law with you. A criminal defendant has
7 the absolute right not to testify. If the defendant does not
8 testify, the juror may not draw any inference against the
9 defendant based on that decision. The fact that a defendant
10 chooses not to testify may not enter into the jury's
11 deliberation. If you were chosen as a juror in this case,
12 would you accept and apply that rule of law?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. That was another question that you had said no to.
15 Is that just a mistake?
16 A. No -- I told you. I had to go, so I just....
17 Q. That's why I was following up.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. But I appreciate your answering all of these questions.
20 And could I just ask you to step out just briefly one other
21 time?
22 (Juror absent)
23 THE COURT: No further questions? No challenges?
24 I'll ask the juror to call in on June the 18th. And the -- I'm
25 inclined not to follow up on the issue of the tickets. The
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1 jury seemed willing to trade them in for credit, and so I don't
2 see that as an issue. And we also don't know whether the juror
3 will eventually be taken, so my inclination is just ask her to
4 come back on June the 18th. I don't want to her to try to
5 cancel plans at this point.
6 All right.
7 (Juror present)
8 BY THE COURT:
9 Q. Hi.
10 A. Hi.
11 Q. Juror 117, you're still involved in the jury selection
12 process. Mr. Fletcher will give you a slip of paper to tell
13 you what -- to call back on June the 18th. It's very important
14 that you continue to follow my instructions. Please, don't
15 talk about this case at all. Please don't look at or listen to
16 anything to do with the case. If you should see something,
17 just turn away. Remember, always to keep an open mind, as I'll
18 tell all the jurors, until they have listened to, heard all the
19 evidence in the case, my instructions on the law, have gone to
20 the jury room to begin their deliberations. Fairness and
21 justice requires that they do that.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. All right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Have a good day.
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1 A. Okay, thank you.
2 (Juror absent)
3 THE COURT: I'm told that Juror 115 had a medical
4 emergency this morning and will be here this afternoon.
5 (Juror present)
6 BY THE COURT:
7 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 119.
8 A. Good afternoon.
9 Q. It's good to see you. Let me ask a couple of preliminary
10 questions. Since you were here last, has anything changed
11 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case, or
12 has anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be
13 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
14 A. No.
15 Q. All right. It now appears that the date that the final
16 jury will be chosen in this case will be Monday, June the 21st.
17 So after today, it's unlikely you will be called or asked to
18 call back before June the 18th. Does that present any serious
19 hardship for you?
20 A. No. June the 18th, you said?
21 Q. Yes, you will call in on June the 18th. And you won't have
22 to come back until June the 21st so the trial won't begin until
23 about June the 21st.
24 A. Okay. Well, the 21st -- what day of the week is that?
25 Q. That would be a Monday.
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1 A. Actually, I was thinking of going out of town for a couple
2 of days.
3 Q. But you could delay that, couldn't you?
4 A. Well, I could.
5 Q. It's -- jury service is very important.
6 A. Oh, I understand that. I've done jury service before. Not
7 in the federal level. But I have done it before.
8 Q. Okay. And so this is something you've put on your
9 calendar. I mean, if you're still in the jury selection
10 process, you can call back on June the 18th and then be asked
11 to call in -- unless something else changes, to come back on
12 June the 21st. And then the trial would not begin until about
13 June the 21st. So one reason to bring all of this to your
14 attention now is to -- so that you would understand those dates
15 and if you wanted to do something, for example, you would have
16 no commitments or responsibilities to this case between now and
17 June the 18th. So if you were thinking about maybe going out
18 of town or so, you could do that between now and June the 18th.
19 A. That's true. That's true.
20 Q. So is that okay?
21 A. That's okay.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. Excuse me, how long is this particular case or trial going
24 to be, about?
25 Q. The estimate for the trial is four to six months. So it
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1 would be four to six months beginning June the 21st.
2 A. Well, that may interfere with some vacation plans I have
3 for November. I'm planning on a cruise, and that's the week of
4 Thanksgiving.
5 Q. Oh, well, we certainly take off for Thanksgiving. We take
6 off the Thursday, Friday, the weekend. And -- so that's --
7 we're certainly off then. And almost surely we would not sit
8 on Wednesday afternoon before Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving is a
9 big holiday for us. So...
10 A. Well, I believe I'm supposed to be leaving that Monday
11 before. I'm not sure at this point. I don't have the papers
12 with me.
13 Q. You have to -- it is unlikely we're going to take off the
14 whole week of Thanksgiving. And it's not -- the trial is
15 expected to last four to six months. So it could last into
16 Thanksgiving, so there's no assurance one way or another about
17 that.
18 But if you were chosen as a juror, jury service, as
19 you know, having sat as a juror before, is an important
20 responsibility, and the ability to get a juror, particularly in
21 a long case, is absolutely important, and to get a jury that's
22 fair, impartial, that doesn't have serious hardships for
23 serving -- everyone has plans and responsibilities, but as I
24 told you in my initial instructions --
25 A. Oh, I recall that.
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1 Q. -- people have to understand the importance of jury service
2 and how important it would be for them if they were a defendant
3 in the case, or the victim of a crime, or otherwise directly
4 involved in the process to understand that people in their
5 community would be prepared to make the sacrifices that jury
6 service entails, so that's why I say, is the few days on the
7 early part of Thanksgiving week which may be not possible if
8 you were a juror in this case, would that amount to a serious
9 hardship for you?
10 A. Well, not that it's a hardship. It's just something that I
11 was looking forward to.
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. I mean, it's not a hardship. I wouldn't consider it a
14 hardship. It's just something I was looking forward to doing.
15 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, would you --
16 and again, there's no assurance that if you were -- if you
17 proceed to the next step in the jury selection process, that
18 you will be selected as a juror.
19 A. Oh, I understand that.
20 Q. But if you were selected as a juror, would you make the
21 necessary arrangements to make yourself available and defer
22 your trip to a later time?
23 A. Well, I would have to. I wouldn't have no choice. I'd
24 have to.
25 Q. Okay. And let me ask you this: If you -- would you do
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1 that, and would that interfere at all with your ability to be a
2 fair and impartial juror in this case?
3 A. Oh, no. Not at all. No.
4 Q. Having spoken to you, I sensed that that would be your
5 answer. But I appreciate your telling me that.
6 Okay. Since you were here last, have you spoken to
7 anyone about the case or have you looked at or listened to
8 anything about the case?
9 A. No, I haven't.
10 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
11 any conversations here at the courthouse or with other
12 prospective jurors?
13 A. No. Not -- no, not about the case, no.
14 Q. About the lengths of time?
15 A. The length of time, yes. But not the case itself.
16 Q. While you were chatting with the other prospective jurors,
17 did anyone talk to you or did you overhear any conversations
18 about the case itself?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You had mentioned that this case would not be an economic
21 hardship for you but that you would not be paid your article?
22 A. Well, since the time I was here before, I was employed, but
23 right now I'm not. I was employed by this -- I had a --
24 Q. Don't tell us the specific --
25 A. Okay, part-time temp position. I started last summer,
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1 okay. And when I originally started the position, it was for
2 20 weeks. The 20 weeks was long gone, okay. And just a week
3 ago -- not last week, the week before, I -- on my day off, I
4 was told that my services were no longer needed at that point,
5 okay. And back in October of 2002, I had taken an early
6 retirement from the City of New York. So I do have a little
7 income coming in once a month.
8 Q. Okay. And you would also, as you know, get the jury fee of
9 $40 a day, which then goes up to $50 a day after a certain
10 period.
11 A. I understand that.
12 Q. So being a juror in this case would not be a serious
13 economic hardship for you?
14 A. No, no.
15 Q. Could you tell me the kinds of just clerical work that you
16 did for the home attendant agency?
17 A. Oh, various. Filing, telephone. You know, being on the
18 phone. Sometimes looking up information on the computer.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. Mailings, you know, typing. That such.
21 Q. You mention that your father was in the Army. Is there
22 anything about that that would prevent you from being a fair
23 and impartial juror in this case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You mentioned that you used to work for the police
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1 department.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How long ago was that?
4 A. Oh, let me see. I started at the police department, I
5 believe it was in 1973. And I left there, I believe it was
6 1995, and I switched to the health department.
7 Q. Okay. And could you tell me what kinds of work you did for
8 the police department?
9 A. Oh, please. Over, what, 20-some years? Depends on the
10 location I was at. I worked in two different precincts. And I
11 also worked at police headquarters, also.
12 Q. Okay. What was the sort of general nature of the work?
13 A. It was all basically clerical.
14 Q. All right.
15 A. There was one point when I worked in the -- in one unit we
16 were in, which say a crime victim was sent to the office to
17 view photographs.
18 Q. I'm sorry, the --
19 A. Say a crime victim was sent to the office to view
20 photographs of, say, perpetrators that matched the description
21 of the perp that committed the crime against them, and we would
22 have to set them up with photographs to look at.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. I did that type of thing. And there were a few times in
25 which I had to go to court and, you know, testify how this
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1 person picked out this particular photograph.
2 Q. All right. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, one
3 of the instructions that I would give is that no witness is
4 entitled to any greater or lesser credibility based on the
5 witness's occupation, so there are -- it's possible that there
6 will be law enforcement officers called to testify at the
7 trial. You would have to listen to their testimony, assess the
8 credibility of the testimony, and, as a matter of law, you
9 couldn't give them any greater or lesser --
10 A. Oh, no.
11 Q. -- credibility.
12 A. I understand that.
13 Q. And you'd follow that instruction?
14 A. Oh, sure, yes.
15 (Continued on next page)
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1 Q. You mentioned that you had had a few experiences as a juror
2 and were those in state court or federal court or both?
3 A. They were in Bronx County Court. There were a couple of
4 criminals.
5 Q. Can you recall about how many cases?
6 A. Not offhand, not really. 3 or 4.
7 Q. When was the last time?
8 A. Well, I know the last time I was called was 2 years ago
9 but --
10 Q. You didn't serve?
11 A. I didn't serve because I was going out of town.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. And I believe one time I came down to the court in
14 Manhattan here but it was settled. It wasn't a criminal
15 matter. It was a suit but any way they settled. When we went
16 to lunch and came back from lunch they said they settled so we
17 didn't really do anything.
18 Q. Okay.
19 And you had actually started to be a juror in the case
20 and began to hear the evidence and then it was settled in the
21 middle of the trial?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay.
24 Have you sat on any cases which actually were
25 presented to the jury for decision? Don't tell us what the
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1 decision was.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. About how many of those?
4 A. Well, I know one. There might have been two. It has been
5 quite a while.
6 Q. Were those civil or criminal?
7 A. Criminal.
8 Q. Two criminal, a long time ago. State court?
9 A. Bronx County, yes.
10 Q. And do you recall what kinds of crimes were that were
11 charged?
12 A. Well, I remember one was possession of a weapon and there
13 might have been some narcotics involved also.
14 Q. And other case? Do you recall what the other one was?
15 A. I really don't recall because that was a very, very long
16 time ago.
17 Q. All right.
18 And in those cases did the jury reach a verdict?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, is there anything about any of your experiences with
21 the court system and with the jury system and with the
22 prosecutors and defense counsel or anything, anything to do
23 with any of those cases that would prevent you from being a
24 fair and impartial juror in this case?
25 A. Oh, no.
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1 Q. You mentioned that you had heard or read something about
2 Sheikh Rahman, Sheikh Abdel Rahman. Do you recall --
3 A. No, basically I know I heard the name but exactly what it
4 was or what I might have listened to on TV, I really can't
5 recall.
6 Q. Okay.
7 Is there anything about what you saw or heard or read
8 that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in
9 this case?
10 A. No.
11 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would be
12 required to decide this case based solely on the evidence or
13 lack of evidence in this case and in accordance with my
14 instructions on the law. Will you do that?
15 A. Oh, yes, I would.
16 Q. As you can tell from all of my questions, the fundamental
17 issue is whether there is anything in your personal history or
18 life experience, whether I have asked you about it specifically
19 or not, that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
20 juror in this case. So let me ask you one final time whether
21 there is anything, whether I have asked you about it
22 specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a fair
23 and impartial juror in this case?
24 A. No, there isn't.
25 Q. Okay.
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1 Thank you, Juror 119. Can you step out just for a
2 moment?
3 (Juror absent)
4 THE COURT: All right, no questions, no challenges.
5 MR. TIGAR: She did work for the Police Department for
6 22 years.
7 Would your Honor ask does she have any friends or
8 acquaintances now who are police officers?
9 THE COURT: All right.
10 MR. TIGAR: Next, your Honor did ask her about her
11 reaction to jury service but would you ask her her reaction to
12 having been direct and cross examined by lawyers in criminal
13 cases? Did that lead to any attitude towards lawyers?
14 THE COURT: She was not.
15 MR. TIGAR: My recollection is, and I could be wrong,
16 that a couple of times she had to go to court to describe how
17 she had shown the photographs of perpetrators to people. I
18 assume those were Wade-Stovall hearings.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 MR. TIGAR: And she did use the term perp in reference
21 to the people that victims were looking for. As she sits there
22 today, does she have any feeling that these people having been
23 charged are guilty of anything?
24 Your Honor, so that we don't have a problem further
25 down the road because it's predictable I think that the answers
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1 to this question may not yield a challenge for cause, does she
2 have money down on her trip? Has she paid for it? It would be
3 better to know that now than to have it come up on the 18th or
4 the 21st of June.
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 (Juror present)
7 BY THE COURT:
8 Q. I had a few follow-up questions, Juror 119.
9 You mentioned that you had worked at the Police
10 Department for some time. Do you currently have any friends,
11 acquaintances who are police officers?
12 A. No, not now. No, I don't.
13 Q. Okay.
14 You mentioned that in the course of your work for the
15 Police Department from time to time you would go to court.
16 A. Yes. It was only a few times but it happened a few times.
17 Q. And when you went to court you gave testimony?
18 A. Yes, they would ask us to explain how the complainant
19 picked out the photo, how we set the person up with the photos
20 and how they picked the picture out and what they said to us
21 when they said that this was the person.
22 Q. Is there anything about that experience or, in fact, any of
23 the experiences that you have told us about that leads you to
24 be biased or prejudiced towards the government or any of the
25 defendants in this case?
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1 A. Oh, no.
2 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, would you be
3 fair and impartial?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You had mentioned about your planned trip over
6 Thanksgiving. If you were chosen as a juror would you change
7 the trip?
8 A. Oh, I would have to.
9 Q. Okay. And do you have any -- have you bought the tickets
10 already?
11 A. Well, I paid on it. I haven't completed the payment on it
12 as of yet but it's still early so if I can't go I would have to
13 get my money back.
14 Q. Okay.
15 And alternatively if you were to delay it perhaps you
16 could simply use it as a credit for another trip.
17 A. Probably. But I would probably get my money back. I was
18 going with my daughter.
19 Q. Okay.
20 Could you step out just one more time? I am sorry to
21 keep you coming in.
22 (Juror absent)
23 THE COURT: I plan to tell the juror to call back on
24 June 18. I probably should have raised it with you before so
25 we don't have to bring her back. I hear nothing further. I
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1 hear no challenges and I will ask her to call back on June
2 18th.
3 Please call the juror back, 119.
4 (Juror present)
5 BY THE COURT:
6 Q. High again, Juror 119.
7 You are still involved in the jury selection process.
8 So you will be -- Mr. Fletcher will give you a slip of paper
9 and it will tell you to call back on June 18 and give you the
10 number and all. You won't have to be back in court until June
11 21st, and I ask you please to follow my continuing
12 instructions.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Remember don't talk about this case at all. Remember not
15 to look at, listen to, read anything to do with the case. If
16 you should see something to do with the case just turn away.
17 Always remember, as I tell all the jurors, keep an open mind
18 until you ever heard all the evidence, I have instructed you on
19 the law, and you go into your deliberations. Fairness and
20 justice require that you do that, all right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Good to see you. You may go home.
23 THE COURT: I think we should break now for lunch.
24 There is another one. 121 has been waiting. Then I
25 guess we should take 121.
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1 Okay.
2 (Juror present)
3 BY THE COURT:
4 Q. Good afternoon. Please have a seat.
5 Good afternoon, Juror 121. I appreciate your coming
6 in and waiting for us.
7 Since you were here last has anything changed
8 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
9 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
10 fair and impartial juror in this case?
11 A. I am thinking about the questionnaire I filled out and I
12 believe I checked off I could be impartial and I don't think
13 that is entirely accurate. And I think that I have some
14 personal issues that have been noted in my questionnaire which
15 I think subject me to possibly needing to be with my children a
16 little more. I have a custody issue upon me and I am very
17 concerned about my children.
18 Q. Okay.
19 Well, let's go to that. You had mentioned that you
20 didn't believe that you would have a serious hardship if you
21 were chosen to be a juror in this case.
22 A. Right. But I don't think that is entirely accurate. I
23 actually had a court appearance last week and my daughter going
24 with his father and he is basically has been diagnosed with
25 some mental illness so I am not very comfortable with the
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1 situation and I think that it changes quickly. We have no
2 family really on both sides --
3 Q. Can you speak into the microphone.
4 A. We have no real family on either side and I feel as though
5 that I should be available at a given notice to attend to
6 anything that may come up. I have had some domestic violence
7 issues. I currently have an order of protection against him
8 and it's pretty messy.
9 Q. But --
10 A. To me, it's monumental. I don't know what your thinking
11 is.
12 Q. Things which are monumental are monumental to me. You
13 currently work, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you are employed full-time?
16 A. Yes, I am.
17 Q. So the issues with respect to your children are there --
18 A. Regardless, I would agree with that. That is why I am
19 asking what your consideration is of this, of my thoughts. But
20 aside from that, you know, there have been some domestic
21 violence issues and in that regard I can label that as a terror
22 attack personally on me and I correlate that along with the
23 possible subject matter that we are dealing with here and it's
24 very upsetting.
25 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case and you had an
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1 individual day where, for example, you had to go to court for a
2 custody hearing or something, then we couldn't sit on that day.
3 I fully appreciate that because jurors have personal
4 emergencies that come up, particularly in the course of a long
5 trial, and I would accommodate that. You work full-time now
6 and so you work full-time and deal with the issues that you
7 have with custody. Now, you have raised issues of your
8 relations with your former husband. This case, however you
9 want to describe what your relations with your husband are, so
10 far as I can tell from what you have told me and what I have
11 explained to you are the allegations in the case, this case has
12 nothing to do with what is going on with your husband and with
13 the custody of your children.
14 A. I absolutely agree. They are separate and distinct,
15 although, you know it's still talking about this intimidation
16 and attack on innocent people and victimized and I live it now.
17 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, could you give
18 the parties in this case a fair trial?
19 A. I think that I would have this in the back of my mind and
20 it would definitely impact any kind of thought process.
21 Q. You know, step out. Step out.
22 A. I am sorry, I didn't hear you.
23 (Juror absent)
24 THE COURT: I am prepared to excuse the juror. I can
25 ask further questions but --
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1 MR. DEMBER: We have no objection, your Honor.
2 MR. RUHNKE: We don't think further questions would be
3 necessary, your Honor.
4 (Juror present)
5 BY THE COURT:
6 Q. Juror 121, you are excused. You may go home.
7 A. Thank you.
8 (Juror absent)
9 THE COURT: We will continue this afternoon at 2:40.
10 Have a good lunch.
11 (Luncheon recess)
12 (Continued on next page)
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1 AFTERNOON SESSION
2 2:45 p.m.
3 THE COURT: Good afternoon all. Please be seated.
4 I gave you a note relating to Juror 221 who will not
5 be called to come back until May 28th.
6 MR. RUHNKE: Am I correct we are not working on May
7 28th?
8 THE COURT: We would be working Friday morning.
9 MR. RUHNKE: Perhaps I was taking it from the
10 instruction you had given to the jury about they would have
11 four-day weekends over Memorial Day and generalizing that to
12 the attorneys.
13 Do I understand we should plan to be here Friday
14 morning?
15 THE COURT: Friday morning, but not Monday.
16 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you.
17 THE COURT: Unless there is something I should
18 consider about Monday. I hadn't thought of it. But I really
19 did think that during jury selection that we would be sitting
20 on Friday morning.
21 This takes us to juror 116.
22 (Juror present)
23 BY THE COURT:
24 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 116.
25 A. Hello.
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1 Q. All right. Let me ask you some preliminary questions.
2 Since you were here last has anything changed
3 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in the case or has
4 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
5 fair and impartial juror in this case?
6 A. No.
7 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
8 chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So after today
9 it's unlikely that you would be called to come or have to call
10 in until June 18th. Does that present any serious hardship for
11 you?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
14 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
15 the case?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case?
18 A. No.
19 Q. And that includes any conversations here at the courthouse
20 or with any other prospective jurors?
21 A. No, sir.
22 Q. And while you were waiting with the other prospective
23 jurors, did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. All right.
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1 In explaining whether this case would present any
2 serious hardship for you, you told us that it would not.
3 A. Right.
4 Q. You also brought to our attention that your mother-in-law
5 and father-in-law are not in good health.
6 A. No, they are not, but I would imagine my wife would be able
7 to take care of them.
8 Q. Okay.
9 So there is nothing about serving as a juror in this
10 case that would be a serious hardship for you?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You mentioned that you have a son who -- in fact, you have
13 4 children. Do any of those children live with you?
14 A. Yes, they do.
15 Q. Do all of them live with you or some of them?
16 A. Just some of them.
17 Q. Which ones live with you?
18 A. The one that is the police officer. He is in the process
19 of buying a house.
20 Q. Can you tell me what kind of work your son does with the
21 Police Department?
22 A. He is just a regular patrol officer. He is stationed in
23 the upper Bronx.
24 Q. Okay.
25 Is there anything about that fact that would prevent
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1 you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
2 A. He often talks to me about his job. I have a very good
3 relationship with my son and he -- we do talk about what he
4 does on the job. I don't know truthfully if that would sway me
5 one way or another. I really don't know. I mean, he tells me
6 about what he handles every day, so we do talk about crime.
7 Q. All right.
8 If you were -- your son, to your knowledge, has never
9 worked on this case as I have described it?
10 A. No, not to my knowledge.
11 Q. Okay.
12 And based on the allegations in this case, is there
13 anything like this case that your son has talked to you about?
14 A. No, not that I can recall, no.
15 Q. Okay.
16 People bring with them their experiences when they act
17 as jurors and the question would be whether you could put aside
18 the fact that your son is a police officer and you have spoken
19 about police work with him and decide this case based solely on
20 the evidence or lack of evidence in this case and my
21 instructions on the law.
22 Could you do that?
23 A. To be truthful, your Honor, I really don't know.
24 Q. Could you step out.
25 (Juror absent)
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1 THE COURT: I am prepared to excuse the juror.
2 MR. RUHNKE: We agree, your Honor.
3 MR. DEMBER: No objection, your Honor.
4 (Juror present)
5 BY THE COURT:
6 Q. Juror 116, I will excuse you. I appreciate your having
7 participated in the process and indeed by participating in the
8 process you performed a public service and so, again, I
9 appreciate your participating in this process.
10 You can go home now and all of the paperwork will be
11 taken care of by mail.
12 A. Okay. Thank you very much.
13 (Juror absent)
14 THE CLERK: 122.
15 (juror present)
16 BY THE COURT:
17 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 122.
18 A. How are you?
19 Q. Good to see you.
20 Let me ask some preliminary questions before I go to
21 the questionnaire.
22 Since you were here last has anything changed
23 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
24 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
25 fair and impartial juror in this case?
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1 A. I would say that I know we are not supposed to have been
2 thinking about it but in thinking sort of on the way home the
3 last time about what I had read previously to this case, not
4 that I recall any more details about anything, but I recalled
5 some more impressions that made me worry a little bit but I am
6 not sure.
7 Q. Okay.
8 What do you recall reading about the case?
9 A. I remember reading a newspaper article and, as I said, I
10 don't remember -- I didn't remember any names or who had done
11 anything but I had remembered just the general topic of it so
12 that I remembered it when you had mentioned it to us and had
13 some thoughts about it as I was reading it.
14 Q. Okay.
15 Could you keep your voice up and talk into the
16 microphone.
17 A. Sorry about that.
18 Q. What thoughts did you have about reading about the case?
19 A. I remember wondering if given the current state of the
20 world if this was a treasonous offense and also that the world
21 has some pretty crazy people in it.
22 Q. Okay. Anything else?
23 A. No, I don't believe so.
24 Q. Okay.
25 Any case which has received some publicity, some
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1 jurors will have read publicity about the case. And as I told
2 you in the course of the preliminary instructions, some
3 reporters try very hard to get things right, but there are
4 things that are incorrect that are written in the press. And
5 what is written in the press is not evidence. Now, if you were
6 chosen as a juror in this case you would have to listen to the
7 evidence or lack of evidence in the case and decide the case
8 based solely upon the evidence or lack of evidence and my
9 instructions on the law. You would have to put aside anything
10 that you have heard or read or seen about the case before and
11 ask yourself whether listening to the evidence or lack of
12 evidence, whether the government has proven the charges in the
13 indictment beyond a reasonable doubt at trial based solely on
14 the evidence or lack of evidence and my instructions on the
15 law.
16 Do you understand that?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. And can you do that?
19 A. I would like to think that I could, yes.
20 Q. Do you have any doubts or questions in your mind about
21 whether you could do that?
22 A. I brought up what I brought up in the spirit of full
23 disclosure.
24 Q. Absolutely, and that is exactly why I want to pursue that
25 with you.
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1 A. I could not be 100 percent sure but I could be close.
2 Q. This inquiry is really not about metaphysical issues and
3 it's about the knowledge that jurors have about themselves and
4 what it is that they have seen or read before and how that
5 affected them and it's about the commitment that the jurors
6 have to being fair and impartial in accordance with their oath.
7 And so the issue is not close or trying or anything like that.
8 The issue is whether as you know yourself and your commitment
9 to your oath and your commitment to fairness to all of the
10 parties in the case, the issue is will you be a fair and
11 impartial juror? Will you decide this case based solely on the
12 evidence or lack of evidence and my instructions on the law?
13 A. If I were chosen, yes, I will.
14 Q. And do you have any question about that in your own mind?
15 A. No.
16 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case would you decide
17 the case based solely on the evidence or lack of evidence and
18 my instructions on the law?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
21 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
22 the case?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case?
25 A. No, when I spoke to my boss about what the policy was in
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1 case I got called away for a 4 to 6 month jury, they asked
2 about it and I said that I am under court order not to say
3 anything.
4 Q. Very good.
5 A. It did not make her happy. She wanted to know.
6 Q. And did you have any conversations about the case with any
7 of the other prospective jurors or with anyone else here at the
8 courthouse?
9 A. No.
10 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors
11 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You mentioned that you had a friend in Afghanistan in the
14 marines. Is that friend still there?
15 A. No. He is in the U.S.
16 Q. I am sorry?
17 A. He is back in the U.S. now.
18 Q. And is there anything about that that would prevent you
19 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You mentioned that you had a few co-workers who went to
22 Israel but no one close to you.
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Did they go to Israel on vacation or pleasure?
25 A. Yes, I believe so.
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1 Q. Okay. Is there anything about that that would prevent you
2 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You indicated that you had -- that you worked in the past
5 and socialized with people who were of Middle Eastern descent,
6 including a Palestinian ex-co-worker and a woman that you
7 dated. As a result of any of those experiences, do you have
8 any biases or prejudices against people of Middle Eastern
9 descent or people of the Islamic faith?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Is there anything about your relations with people of
12 Middle Eastern descent that would prevent you from being a fair
13 and impartial juror in this case?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You said that you were not very knowledgeable about Islam
16 but had read some things in the American press. Is there
17 anything specifically you recall reading?
18 A. No, just sort of the sum of the parts. I think I follow
19 the news and it's tough to miss that these days.
20 Q. You mentioned that you don't have strong views against
21 Islam but that you were suspicious of extremists in all
22 religion, whether it be Wahabism or fundamentalist Christian.
23 Can you just explain to me what you meant by that?
24 A. I am pretty much of a moderate in most things and a
25 relativist a bit. I distrust people, politics, religion,
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1 whatever, who are really on the outskirts of the scale. I
2 think that there is more than one way to see things and I think
3 that the truth is often grayer than black or white.
4 Q. All right.
5 One of the fundamental precepts of our system of
6 justice is that no matter what the views of jurors are on any
7 subject, when the jurors come into the jury box and then when
8 the jurors go to decide a case, they are committed to deciding
9 the case based solely on the evidence or lack of evidence and
10 my instructions on the law, and not on any feelings, past
11 points of view or anything like that.
12 Will you do that? Will you just listen to the
13 evidence or lack of evidence and my instructions on the law and
14 decide the case based solely on the evidence or lack of
15 evidence and my instructions on the law?
16 A. Yes, I would.
17 Q. You mentioned that you had never had any personal
18 experiences, negative experiences with any people of Middle
19 Eastern descent.
20 What did you mean by not personally?
21 A. I am trying to remember why I wrote that.
22 That I have not had any particular personal instances
23 of any individuals that I have met or dealt with or had any
24 experience with personally that has had any negative impact on
25 me.
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1 Q. And you followed up another question. You were asked
2 whether you had any negative feelings or opinions about persons
3 of Middle Eastern descent or people of the Islamic faith and
4 you said yes, see question 84, which was being suspicious of
5 extremists. And then you added but I had never met -- but I
6 have never met any person of Middle Eastern descent that I have
7 any negative feelings about and I believe everyone is entitled
8 to the benefit of the doubt.
9 Is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is there anything about your feelings about extremism that
12 would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this
13 case?
14 A. No, I don't believe so. I would judge the individual.
15 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices towards the government
16 or towards the defendants who are on trial?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You mentioned, you were asked about whether there is any
19 law enforcement bias for or against people of Middle Eastern
20 descent, people of Islamic faith, and you said no, nothing
21 systemic.
22 What did you mean by nothing systemic?
23 A. Meaning that I think that if you read about instances of
24 anyone doing I don't know what would be considered hate crimes
25 or biases against anyone of any particular race, I would think
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1 that that is a bias of theirs. I don't think that there is any
2 system wide bias against anyone or more anyone, at least I hope
3 not.
4 Q. Okay.
5 You mentioned that you recalled seeing something about
6 Sheikh Abdel Rahman. Could you tell me what you recall seeing
7 or reading about Sheikh Abdel Rahman?
8 A. Do you mean where I would have seen it or what the content
9 was that I saw?
10 Q. Both. What do you recall reading or seeing or hearing, and
11 where did you recall seeing it?
12 A. Well, through television, newspapers, news magazines I had
13 followed after the '93 World Trade Center bombing I learned
14 that Sheikh Abdel Rahman was a blind cleric who has since been
15 put in prison for his role in what I took to be masterminding
16 that crime and that he is still in prison today.
17 Q. All right.
18 Again, if you were chosen as a juror in this case, as
19 to all issues you would have to ask is there evidence in the
20 case that shows that, not have I read about something somewhere
21 about that, but when you approach the case in fairness to all
22 of the parties you would have to ask is there evidence in the
23 case that proves that? Because it's up to the government to
24 prove the case in accordance with the evidence or lack of
25 evidence presented at trial beyond a reasonable doubt. And so
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1 with respect to anything that you have seen, heard or read, you
2 would have to put that aside and just decide the case just
3 based on the evidence or lack of evidence presented here in
4 court.
5 Do you understand that?
6 A. Yes, I do. If I were selected I would forget any a priori
7 knowledge I had of any of this.
8 Q. All right.
9 Similarly, you said said or you recall something about
10 this case and you discussed that at the outset. Is there
11 anything else that as you now sit here that you can recall
12 thinking or reading about the case?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Is there anything about what you saw about the case that
15 would prevent you from doing what you know you would be
16 required to do as a juror, deciding this case based solely upon
17 the evidence or lack of evidence presented here in court and
18 not on the basis of anything you had seen, heard or read
19 before?
20 A. Yes, if that is the directive I will do my best to do so.
21 Q. Do you have any questions in your mind whether you could do
22 that?
23 A. Well, like I said, I have a very small question that I do
24 know this and it's up here. I will do my best to put that
25 aside and not dwell on it, not apply it at all.
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1 Q. Could you just step out for a moment?
2 (Juror absent)
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1 (Juror absent)
2 THE COURT: Do the parties have any view?
3 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I heard him when he first came
4 in, I made a note --
5 THE COURT: Okay, I mean, you think it's a challenge
6 for cause, right?
7 MR. TIGAR: I think that he is or very quickly will
8 be.
9 THE COURT: Okay. I'm prepared to excuse the juror.
10 It's plain to me that he has doubts as about his ability to be
11 fair and to regard this case solely on the evidence or lack of
12 evidence. And he had concerns at the outset and has been
13 unable to resolve those concerns. I raised it with the parties
14 because I wanted to know if they wanted me to continue at all.
15 I hear nothing further, and it's plain to me that it's a
16 challenge for cause.
17 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the juror did say
18 repeatedly that he could be fair and impartial. There is a
19 slight amount of equivocation by him at the end, and I would
20 ask your Honor to ask him whether he could follow your
21 instruction and view the evidence in this case and do so
22 impartially.
23 THE COURT: No. I've asked him that several times.
24 And his responses have been equivocal. They've ranged from
25 agreeing that he could do that to repeating the doubts that he
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1 had, so that each time, he goes back and forth with me. And
2 it's clear to me that he has the doubts, and they are
3 expressed, and I -- they are sufficient to rise to the level of
4 cause because he can't assure me that he will be fair and
5 impartial. And in the same way that with other jurors who have
6 had doubts on either side, and who can't give me that kind of
7 assurance that the parties are entitled to, I believe it's a
8 fair challenge for cause because the juror cannot assure the
9 parties that he will be fair and impartial and put aside what
10 he's seen and heard about the case, and the things that he has
11 seen and heard about the case. He's been quite frank and
12 candid in explaining to us what kinds of impressions they have
13 left on him. This is not something that is seen or heard and
14 has passed out of his mind, or that he can assure us he will
15 place out of his mind in the course of the trial or
16 deliberations. So there's a -- I take it there's a challenge
17 for cause -- yes?
18 MR. TIGAR: Yes, sir.
19 THE COURT: And I will grant that challenge.
20 (Juror present)
21 THE COURT: Hello, Juror 122. I will excuse you. I
22 very much appreciate your participation in the process. You've
23 performed a public service by being here and participating in
24 the process. The process couldn't exist without people such as
25 you who are prepared to go through this process and to talk
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1 about all of the background that goes into the process of jury
2 selection. So again, I very much appreciate your having
3 participated in the process.
4 A. It was my pleasure.
5 (Juror absent)
6 DEPUTY CLERK: 123.
7 U.S. MARSHAL: 123.
8 (Juror present)
9 BY THE COURT:
10 Q. Hi, good afternoon, Juror 123.
11 A. Hi.
12 Q. Let me ask you some preliminary questions at the outset.
13 Since you were here last, has anything changed concerning your
14 ability to serve as a juror in this case or has anything
15 occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a fair and
16 impartial juror in this case?
17 A. Outside of a little bit of a financial issue, no.
18 Q. Okay. What's the financial issue?
19 A. Well, I work as an independent contractor, so it's not like
20 I can get up in the morning and call my boss and say, Oh, I've
21 got jury duty. If I can't work, I've got to let somebody know
22 the day before.
23 Q. Right.
24 A. And then when you don't need me on Thursday and I have to
25 call on Friday night after 5:00 o'clock, that doesn't help me,
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1 I still don't work on Thursday because they've replaced me.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. So until the selection process is even over, I could lose
4 money.
5 Q. Well, let me give you some assurances with respect to that
6 at this point. First, it now appears that the date that the
7 final jury will be chosen in this case will be Monday, June the
8 21st. So after today, you won't have to come back, you won't
9 have to call in, until June the 18th.
10 A. Fantastic.
11 Q. So you will be free to go about making your appointments,
12 and all that's --
13 A. Great, because I've already lost a couple of hundred bucks.
14 Q. Okay. So then the trial would not begin until the
15 earliest, June the 21st. But when the trial begins, there
16 would be the commitment that it would go on for four to six --
17 A. I've got Yankees tickets on June the 29th, Boston. Evening
18 game.
19 Q. We don't sit after about 4:30. So does that schedule
20 present any serious hardship for you?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay. Since you were here last, has anyone spoken to you
23 about the case or have you looked at or listened to anything --
24 A. No.
25 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. And that includes any conversations here at the courthouse
3 or with any other prospective juror?
4 A. It does.
5 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
6 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You had mentioned that the case did not present any serious
9 hardship for you, but that you may lose one of your two weekday
10 positions?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. For which you are paid per appointment?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. As you know, you would be paid as a juror $40 a day, and
15 then after a certain number of days, it goes up to $50.
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. For the days of jury service.
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. And you would not sit on -- we don't usually sit on
20 Fridays.
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. And we only sit until about 4:30.
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. I don't know whether you have any appointments at night
25 or --
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1 A. I can schedule evening appointments, but not for those
2 particular positions which I listed as 1099 positions.
3 Q. Okay. So the schedule that I've explained to you, would
4 that portend any serious economic hardship for you?
5 A. It will cut my income. There will be small compensation
6 from the payment from the Court.
7 Q. Right.
8 A. But it won't be the same as what my income was. It will --
9 I can live. But it will cut my income.
10 Q. Okay. Now, one of the -- is there anything about that that
11 would cause you to be other than a fair and impartial juror in
12 this case?
13 A. You mean the financial?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. You mean am I going to hold it against -- no, no, I don't
16 believe so.
17 Q. You don't believe so?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You wouldn't hold it against any of the parties? It
20 wouldn't interfere with your ability to be fair and impartial;
21 is that correct?
22 A. Toward a case, no.
23 Q. And -- I mean, these questions are so important because
24 it's important that the parties in the case have a jury that's
25 fair and impartial.
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1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. To all of the parties. And jury service, we know, is a
3 sacrifice and a burden on citizens who come and do it. And
4 everyone appreciates that. And what -- and at the same time,
5 all the parties are entitled to have a cross section of their
6 community, people who have --
7 A. I understand. I do. I mean, I could have said to you, No,
8 I absolutely can't do it; it's going to totally screw me; I'm
9 not going to make any money, and then I'll be out of all of my
10 jobs.
11 I didn't. I was honest with you.
12 Q. Okay. You mentioned that you have a brother in the air
13 force.
14 A. Was. Not any longer.
15 Q. When did he get out of the air force?
16 A. I don't know, 15 years ago.
17 Q. Okay. Anything about that that would prevent you from
18 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You mentioned that you had a friend of a friend scheduled
21 to go to Afghanistan?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Anything about that that would prevent you from being a
24 fair and impartial juror in this case?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. You mentioned that you listened to the news on 1010 because
2 you listened to that really to get other information like the
3 temperature?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. You don't go out of the way to listen to the news?
6 A. I find the news unbearable, frankly.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. But they do give you the temperature every 20 minutes.
9 Q. Okay. You mentioned that -- and I wasn't sure if this
10 was -- what you meant when you said in response to one question
11 that you had a violent early childhood?
12 A. Exactly what I said. I had a violent early childhood.
13 Q. But was that in terms of your relations with your parents,
14 your siblings, or --
15 A. It's very complicated. I don't think it would affect
16 what's happening with this case. You asked a question about
17 was I ever a victim of a crime. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. Is there -- were any charges -- were there any --
19 A. No.
20 Q. Is there anything about that that would prevent you from
21 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You mention that you once worked as a receptionist for a
24 San Francisco law firm?
25 A. Uh-huh.
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1 Q. Without telling me the name of the law firm, can you just
2 tell me what sort of work that law firm did? Was it -- was it
3 a corporate law firm, or real estate, or criminal defense,
4 or --
5 A. No. They handled a number of things, private sort of
6 practice. I was only there for a very brief time. I was very
7 young. I really didn't pay much attention to what was going
8 on. I was just answering the phone.
9 Q. Okay. You mentioned that lawyers waste an enormous amount
10 of paper?
11 A. That's true.
12 Q. Is there anything about that that would interfere with your
13 ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
14 A. Well, I do have a deep affection to trees, and it will
15 drive me absolutely insane, but so does waiting tables in a
16 restaurant and watching food waste, so...
17 Q. Okay. If you were chosen as a juror, as you know, you
18 would be required to be fair and impartial and to give the
19 parties in the case a fair trial.
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. Would you do that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. One of the instructions that I give to jurors is that, in
24 substance, this case is not about the lawyers who represent the
25 defendants or the lawyers for the government, and it doesn't
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1 make a difference whether you like a lawyer or whether you
2 think that the Court likes a lawyer. The issue in the case is
3 whether the government has proven the charges in the indictment
4 beyond a reasonable doubt, based upon the evidence or lack of
5 evidence. And would you follow that instruction?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You mention that you have a friend who was a parole officer
8 who is now retired. Is there anything about that that would
9 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You mentioned that you had a friend who went to Egypt to
12 teach basic electrical skills to the military and a friend in
13 Egypt --
14 A. AIDS awareness.
15 Q. For AIDS awareness.
16 A. No, I don't think it will affect my ability to be a fair
17 and impartial juror.
18 Q. Okay. You also mentioned that you had friends who visited
19 Israel. How long ago was that? A long time ago?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. And Egypt?
22 A. Long time ago.
23 Q. And Iran?
24 A. Long time ago.
25 Q. Anything about -- why did those people visit those
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1 countries, do you know? Was it business or pleasure?
2 A. Pleasure. One was more of a sort of divorce situation.
3 She was -- my ex-boyfriend's sister was sent to live with the
4 relatives of her father who lived in Iran once he and his wife
5 divorced.
6 Q. Okay. Anything about any of that that would prevent you
7 from being a fair and impartial juror in the case?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices against any people of
10 Middle Eastern descent or people of the Islamic faith?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You mention that you had had a negative experience --
13 A. With the fellow in the restaurant? Is that what you're --
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. That was just one person in a restaurant when you were a
17 waitress?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. Is there --
20 A. No, that was one fellow who was a punk, and I don't think
21 it will affect anything that goes on here.
22 Q. Okay. You mentioned that you had read or that you had
23 heard something about the blind sheikh. Do you recall what
24 that was?
25 A. No, I don't. I remember seeing a picture flash across the
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1 television screen -- I was doing something else, I think I was
2 cleaning -- and I remember the news was on, and there was a
3 picture.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. It was a number of years ago.
6 Q. Anything else?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Anything about that that would prevent you from being a
9 fair and impartial juror in this case?
10 A. No.
11 Q. One of the questions that was asked was: The jurors in the
12 case will be instructed that they must base their decisions
13 entirely on the evidence produced in court and not from any
14 outside source or preexisting opinions or attitudes. Can you
15 do that, despite anything you may have read, seen or heard
16 about the case?
17 A. Okay, explain to me -- there was an issue that you had
18 brought up when you first explained the case.
19 Q. Right.
20 A. Having something to do with not being allowed to -- I
21 believe one of the indictments is, his attorney is accused of
22 passing notes or something like that when he wasn't supposed to
23 be speaking with anybody or in contact with anybody. Now, I
24 understand that there are reasons for things like solitary
25 confinement, but I guess it's important that I explain that I
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1 don't believe people should be allowed to disappear. I mean, I
2 understand that we're not talking about somebody -- we're
3 talking about somebody who's been accused of very violent,
4 terrible things. We're not talking about somebody like Nelson
5 Mandela. But I don't believe even the bad guys should be
6 allowed to just disappear. Because then anybody can just
7 disappear. I think that should be clear.
8 I don't know -- I don't remember the indictments as
9 exactly read, but I do feel very strongly about rights and
10 proper treatment, regardless of accusations.
11 Q. All right. If you were -- you recall the substance,
12 plainly, of what I explained to you, or some of the charges --
13 A. That's the particular one that struck me. That and
14 conspiracy about kidnapping and stuff like that. Those are
15 really the only two I recall.
16 Q. Okay. What I told you about the charges was that they're
17 only charges, and the government would be required to prove the
18 charges in the indictment beyond a reasonable doubt at trial
19 based upon the evidence or lack of evidence.
20 Now, similarly, it will be up to me as the judge to
21 instruct you on the law. Whether something is -- what the
22 elements of the law are that you have to ask your self whether
23 those elements are proven or not proven by the evidence or lack
24 of evidence in the case. And the only way to do that is to
25 keep an open mind until you've heard all of the evidence or
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1 lack of evidence and I've explained to you what the law is.
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Now, you explained to me that you feel very strongly about
4 rights. Now, potential jurors who come into this courtroom
5 bring with them their feelings about issues, whether they be
6 rights or charges. But what the law requires is that if they
7 are chosen as a juror, the only thing that they'll do is to
8 listen to the evidence or lack of evidence, and my instructions
9 on the law.
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. And they'll follow the law whether they disagree with it or
12 agree with it or not. I will instruct them on the law. They
13 will ask --
14 A. So regardless of whether or not you agree with the law,
15 whether you think the law is --
16 Q. Correct.
17 A. -- a good law, or correct or incorrect, good or bad --
18 Q. That is not for the jury to decide. And I will tell them
19 that. It is not for the jurors. It doesn't make a difference
20 whether the jurors agree with it or disagree with it. It
21 doesn't make a difference whether the jurors think that
22 something should be a crime or not a crime. That's completely
23 beyond what the role of the jurors is. The jurors have to ask
24 themselves, based upon the law as the judge gives it to us, has
25 the government proven the charges in the indictment beyond a
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1 reasonable doubt?
2 A. That could cause me to have an aneurysm.
3 Q. I'm sorry?
4 A. That could cause me to have an aneurysm, yeah. I mean, to
5 sit and pass a judgment on a law that you just simply disagree
6 with. And then to have to pass a verdict about something that
7 you don't even think is correct -- and I don't even know really
8 what the law is and what the situation is. I'm not saying
9 that's going to happen. I'm just saying that if you ask me to
10 pass a judgment against something that I don't approve of, I
11 could have a problem with it. But I'm not saying that I even
12 understand the law as it's written. I just thought I should
13 bring it up because I thought it might be a problem.
14 Q. Sure. One of the instructions that I give to jurors is
15 that they -- that it's up to the jurors to follow the law,
16 whether they agree with it or not. Is that something that --
17 A. That I could have a problem with? Yes.
18 Q. Okay. Can you step out, please?
19 (Juror absent)
20 THE COURT: I'm prepared to strike the juror.
21 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, I believe a strike for cause
22 is appropriate in this case. She's clearly, in sort of graphic
23 terminology, has indicated she may have real difficulty
24 following any law that she doesn't agree with. And she can't
25 give us the assurance that she will follow the law as your
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1 Honor gives it to the jury. In this case, I don't think
2 there's any choice but to have to excuse this juror.
3 THE COURT: All right.
4 MR. TIGAR: Ms. Stewart objects to striking her for
5 cause, your Honor, but solely on the ground Miss Stewart in
6 this case believes that Sparf versus the United States was
7 wrongly decided.
8 So long as that remains the law of the land, we have
9 to agree that it applies here.
10 MR. RUHNKE: We agree.
11 THE COURT: There's a valid -- I'll strike the juror
12 for cause on any one of a number of bases. The juror will not
13 assure me that she will follow the law. I do not find, based
14 upon her answers, that she would be a fair and impartial juror
15 in this case, and that she would pose considerations which go
16 beyond being a fair and impartial juror, listening to the
17 evidence and deciding the case based solely upon the evidence
18 or lack of evidence and my instructions on the law. So I will
19 strike the juror for cause.
20 Okay.
21 (Juror present)
22 BY THE COURT:
23 Q. Please, have a seat. All right. Juror 123, I will excuse
24 you. And I very much appreciate your having participated in
25 the process. Your participation is a public service in and of
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1 itself. And I hope that you appreciate that.
2 A. Sure I do.
3 Q. And so you're excused. You may go home, and the paperwork
4 will be taken care of by mail.
5 A. Thank you.
6 (Juror absent)
7 DEPUTY CLERK: 124.
8 (Juror present)
9 BY THE COURT:
10 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 124. Since you were here last, has
11 anything changed concerning your ability to serve as a juror in
12 this case or has anything occurred to you that may affect your
13 ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
14 A. Well, from my work point of view. It's going to be very --
15 it would be an extreme hardship for me to be able to be here
16 four times a week for -- with the position I hold as
17 vice-president of finance, I'm in charge of four people, and my
18 office. But we also have divisions all over the United States
19 which call in to me for, you know, that I have to do problem
20 solving and things like that. So it could be a big hardship.
21 Q. You would be paid your salary, right?
22 A. I understand, but it's also the owner of the company, just
23 had a liver transplant back in January. That I have assumed
24 more responsibility as well.
25 Q. If you were chosen as a juror, we only sit until about
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1 4:30, and we don't sit on Fridays. Now, the -- you have a
2 responsible job, and I appreciate that you have
3 responsibilities in your job. The parties are entitled to have
4 a jury which comes from a cross-section of the community,
5 including people who have responsible jobs.
6 A. I understand.
7 Q. And you've indicated that, on the questionnaire, that this
8 would not be a serious economic hardship for you, right?
9 A. The bottom, the last question?
10 Q. Would serving on this jury cause you economic hardship
11 while you serve on the jury?
12 A. Well, economic, it's not economic. It's just that the
13 company itself, the company, would suffer. I already go to
14 work sometimes at 4:00, 5:00 o'clock in the morning as it is
15 now to catch up on my work.
16 Q. You were also asked would you have a serious hardship if
17 chosen for this case, and you said, under oath --
18 A. I understand that. But.
19 Q. -- no.
20 A. I've changed my mind -- I mean, I thought about it real
21 serious. I mean, I was serious before, but I was really, you
22 know, putting it in the perspective on the drive home, and I --
23 I wanted to be as good a citizen as I can to try to be as fair
24 as possible, but once I really thought about it, I really think
25 it would be a big hardship.
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1 Q. All right.
2 A. And then this Berg thing that happened, with the beheading,
3 that upset me a little bit as well.
4 Q. What?
5 A. That incident that happened a couple of weeks ago with the
6 beheading of that American. It's all terrorist related.
7 Q. Yeah. You know, look, when you filled out the
8 questionnaire, you wanted to be a good citizen.
9 A. I still want to be a good citizen, I -- honestly, I to.
10 Q. Did you fill out the questionnaire truthfully?
11 A. I tried, as truthful as I could.
12 Q. And when you said it would not be a serious hardship if
13 chosen for this case, was that true?
14 A. At that point, yes. At that point, yes.
15 Q. What happened between then and now?
16 A. I -- like I said, I really tried, you know, I thought about
17 the whole process. It was many hours of back and forth and
18 then the question questionnaire, 40 pages long. I was trying
19 to be as honest as I can. I didn't really think as much I
20 guess as I should have, the whole thing through.
21 Q. Well, you know, if you were chosen as a juror in this case,
22 would you be fair and impartial?
23 A. I would try to be, yeah.
24 Q. If I found that your claims with respect to work did not
25 rise to the level of hardship, would you -- would you hold it
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1 against any of the parties?
2 A. It would be a little work for me. That's the only thing.
3 You know, I don't think so.
4 Q. What?
5 A. I don't think so. I mean, it's going to be a very hectic
6 thing for me. I'm also a diabetic. I'm also -- have heart
7 problems. I mean, it's -- I'm not trying to make things up.
8 Honestly. It's just the work that's -- I have a very tough
9 position, honestly.
10 Q. Look, you have two sets of issues: One is, your job. And
11 you knew about that, and you thought about it and you knew then
12 that it's really -- in terms of your responsibilities, to the
13 system of justice and being a good citizen, you knew deep down
14 that that was not serious hardship.
15 A. Yes, I did, but I thought I could do it, until I really put
16 the cards on the table and I really seriously thought about it.
17 I try to be as fair as I possibly can with myself.
18 Q. And now, when you -- when you're thinking about other
19 things and you're also thinking about the possibility that this
20 won't be serious hardship, you begin to say other things.
21 A. I don't understand.
22 Q. Well, your medical condition --
23 A. Well, it's just that I take medication. I'm just saying --
24 nothing has ever happened, I work very hard and nothing has
25 come up. Okay? I'm just telling you, it's -- I'm trying to be
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1 as honest as possibly can, that I don't want you to think I
2 didn't say something I should have.
3 Q. Okay. Can you step out just for a moment?
4 A. Sure.
5 (Juror absent)
6 THE COURT: It is not clear to me that this is serious
7 hardship. If the parties agree to excuse the juror, I would be
8 inclined to excuse the juror. But I'm also perfectly prepared
9 to continue with the examination of the juror to see if the
10 juror can be a fair and impartial juror. The juror has
11 work-related issues which I'll continue to explore as well as
12 all of the other questions on the questionnaire. But if the
13 parties believe that this really rises to the level of
14 hardship, I will certainly listen to the parties on that point.
15 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we think the juror should be
16 excused. Even if after this whole process today and then was
17 selected on the jury, we also run the risk of him starting to
18 resent the whole process, which is also another factor.
19 To cut it short, we agree, we think the juror should
20 be excused.
21 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the government disagrees
22 with that position. There have been other jurors who have got
23 responsibilities, most of the jurors, in fact, and this juror
24 appears to work for a medium-sized company, and while clearly
25 he doesn't want to serve, we don't believe that rises to the
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1 level of challenge for cause at this point.
2 THE COURT: All right. I'll continue to explore with
3 the juror.
4 (Juror present)
5 BY THE COURT:
6 Q. Hi. Let me just follow up on some questions. If you were
7 chosen as a juror and sat on this trial, you would be able to
8 work after the end of the day, which we only work until about
9 4:30. Fridays we don't sit. Weekends, we don't sit. And with
10 the other assistance that you have in your company, and given
11 those hours, would you be able to say -- would the company be
12 able to continue to get along without you?
13 A. They could. The only thing is that every month we close
14 out, I go in to close the accounts receivable at a certain time
15 so that by the next day when they come in, it's ready to go.
16 There's certain functions that nobody can do. It's not a big
17 company. It's a medium-sized company, and I only have four
18 people under me at headquarters. Then there are other people
19 in other divisions that do call in to me for questions to be
20 answered. Or decisions to be made.
21 Q. But if you were taken ill, for example?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. The work would still get done by others?
24 A. What happened when my wife had the baby, he called me in
25 the delivery room to ask me questions. This is the owner of
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1 the company. That's how far he goes to get to me. I'm just
2 telling you the way it is.
3 Q. What did you mean, by the way, about the beheading?
4 A. It just upset me. This terrorist thing is just -- you
5 know, I watched the news every night, except for this -- what I
6 wasn't supposed to be watching. It's just too many things
7 going on. It's -- makes you think, what's happening, you know,
8 with the world. Try to be fair, as fair as you can, but then
9 you see all these things going on. Is it ever going to end?
10 Q. Would you be able to put those thoughts and what you've
11 seen or heard or read about these other issues aside and decide
12 the case based solely on the evidence or lack of evidence and
13 my instructions on the law?
14 A. I would try to, yeah. If those were your instructions.
15 Q. Would you do that?
16 A. I would try, yeah.
17 Q. I'm sorry?
18 A. I would try.
19 Q. Do you have any questions or doubts about your ability to
20 do that?
21 A. That I wouldn't be a good juror, you mean?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. Would I -- work would really affect it. My mind would be a
24 great deal -- with work. I have been there for almost 20 years
25 now. And, you know, it's like a second home to me. And then I
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1 do love my family as well.
2 Q. Would your work interfere with your ability to be there in
3 the courtroom?
4 A. Yeah, it would. Meaning that I would be thinking --
5 because I would have to work till 12:00 or 1:00 o'clock in the
6 morning, I'm sure. Not every day, but especially at the end of
7 the month. We have certain numbers that have to be done at a
8 certain time. We have an outside auditor that comes to do the
9 books to make sure everything's done on a monthly basis.
10 Q. Okay. Can you step out?
11 (Juror absent)
12 MR. MORVILLO: The government would consent, your
13 Honor.
14 THE COURT: All right. I will strike the juror.
15 (Juror present)
16 BY THE COURT:
17 Q. Juror 124, I will excuse you. So you're free to go home.
18 All of your paperwork will be taken care of by mail.
19 A. I'm sorry for any --
20 Q. It's all right.
21 A. -- that I caused.
22 Q. It's all right.
23 A. Thank you.
24 (Juror absent)
25 THE COURT: Juror Number 126.
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1 (Juror present)
2 BY THE COURT:
3 Q. Good afternoon.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. Have a seat. If you would talk into the microphone so that
6 I can hear.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. Since you were here last, Juror 126, has anything changed
9 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
10 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
11 fair and impartial juror in this case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. And it now appears that the date that the final jury will
14 be chosen in the case will be Monday, June 21st. So after
15 today, it's unlikely that you will be called back or have to
16 call in until June the 18th. Does that present any serious
17 hardship for you?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about
20 this case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
21 the case?
22 A. No. I mean, I haven't seen anything.
23 Q. I'm sorry?
24 A. It's been sort of -- no.
25 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, including any
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1 conversations here at the courthouse or with any other
2 prospective jurors?
3 A. No.
4 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
5 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
6 A. Not specifically, no.
7 Q. Okay. Generally?
8 A. Just that we're waiting and who was next and this, that and
9 the other.
10 Q. I'm sorry, just --
11 A. Just that we were waiting and who was the next to be
12 called, and like that.
13 Q. Can you tell me, you had graduate studies. Can you tell me
14 what the area of your graduate studies were?
15 A. International relations, philosophy, anthro -- well,
16 basically, international relations.
17 Q. International relations and philosophy?
18 A. I like philosophy and archeology; history. So I took
19 courses.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. I took courses.
22 Q. You said that your last job was in telecommunications. Can
23 you tell me what kind of office work you did?
24 A. It was basically just basic office work. Putting seminars
25 in order. It was a seminar program, so it was just making sure
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1 everything was in order.
2 Q. Okay. You mention that your father was in the Royal
3 Canadian Air Force?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Is there anything about that that would prevent you from
6 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
7 A. I don't believe so, no. That was a long time ago.
8 Q. Okay. You mention that you had served on two prior juries:
9 One in Minnesota, I think, and one in New York?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The case in Minnesota was a long time ago?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And was that a civil case?
14 A. I remember it went to -- they settled out of court. So we
15 never got beyond being chosen as jurors. We never heard any
16 evidence or anything.
17 Q. I see. And you were in New York City?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You had a case?
20 A. About a year ago.
21 Q. And was that a civil case also, or --
22 A. I believe so. It was a traffic injury, bicyclist.
23 Q. Someone suing for a traffic injury?
24 A. For damages. I guess the person opened the door when she
25 got injured.
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1 Q. Did the jury deliberate in that case -- don't tell us what
2 the verdict was.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did it reach a verdict?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How long was that case?
7 A. It was a few days.
8 Q. And the Minnesota case was the one that involved the --
9 that settled out of court?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is there anything about those prior jury experiences or
12 your experiences with any of the parties or issues or lawyers
13 that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in
14 this case?
15 A. Not that I'm aware of, no.
16 Q. And you've never served on a grand jury, right?
17 A. No, I haven't.
18 Q. You mention that you access the Internet. Do you ever use
19 the Internet for news?
20 A. No. Well, business news.
21 Q. Okay. Do you regularly use any particular service on the
22 Internet?
23 A. The --
24 Q. Any news service?
25 A. Newton -- well, I just signed up for the Wall Street
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1 Journal. So....
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. But it's basically business. And games.
4 Q. I'm sorry?
5 A. And games. I like to play games.
6 Q. I can't hear you.
7 A. Games.
8 Q. Games.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Have you -- you mention that you sued because of an injury
11 you had as a teenager, the insurance company sued on your
12 behalf. Is that right?
13 A. As I recall, there were multiple injuries. I was 16, and I
14 was -- the lawyer was from the Social Security. So -- because
15 I didn't have any money. So they sued. She sued. And made
16 sure that I got treatment.
17 Q. Okay. And was that successful?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. Is there anything about that lawsuit or your experience
20 with that lawsuit or the lawyers that would prevent you from
21 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
22 A. No, I don't believe so.
23 Q. You were asked whether you had ever been a witness or given
24 any statement in any type of legal proceeding, and you said,
25 not that you recall, other than in the above case. That would
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1 be the insurance case, insurance, right?
2 A. Yeah.
3 (Continued on next page)
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1 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that you have been a
2 witness in any other case?
3 A. No, no, it's not a matter -- but sometimes you don't know
4 what information may be used for, you know.
5 Q. Okay.
6 You were asked whether you had any knowledge of Islam
7 and you said that you were not very knowledgeable and your only
8 knowledge was things that you have read in passing?
9 A. Yes. I mean, like newspaper articles or else a book. I
10 like art.
11 Q. You like --
12 A. I like art and so I study art and also like in studying
13 history it comes in, so just there. I haven't focused on it to
14 study it so that I know it.
15 Q. Okay.
16 Do you have any biases or prejudices against any
17 people of the Islamic faith or any people of Mideast descent?
18 A. No.
19 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would be
20 required to decide this case based solely on the evidence or
21 lack of evidence and in accordance with my instructions on the
22 law. Will you do that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. As you can tell from all of these questions, the
25 fundamental issue is whether there is anything in your personal
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1 history or life experience, whether I have asked you about it
2 specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a fair
3 and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one final
4 time whether there is anything, whether I have asked you about
5 it specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a
6 fair and impartial juror in this case?
7 A. I don't believe so. I mean, I knew a fellow that I forgot
8 at the time when I was in college who was from I ran. But, you
9 know, at that time you were all mates together. One doesn't
10 pay attention so that is about it. I don't believe that I have
11 any bias.
12 Q. Okay.
13 Anything -- I appreciate your bringing up the fact
14 that you knew 2001 from Iraq --
15 A. Iran.
16 Q. Iran, okay. And that was back in college?
17 A. The '60s, yes.
18 Q. In the '60s, okay.
19 And you are very thorough in bringing that up to me.
20 Is there anything about that leads you to be biased or
21 prejudiced to people of Middle Eastern descent?
22 A. I don't think so. People are people. There are good ones
23 and bad ones so --
24 Q. Okay. If you were chosen as a juror in this case would you
25 decide this case based solely on the evidence or lack of
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1 evidence in this case and my instructions on the law?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right.
4 Could you step out for a moment?
5 (Juror absent)
6 THE COURT: No questions, no challenges?
7 Let's call back Juror 126.
8 (Juror present)
9 BY THE COURT:
10 Q. Please have a seat.
11 You know, one thing I forgot to just ask you was the
12 case that you were on as a juror in New York City, which court
13 was that?
14 A. It was on is it like Thomas Street?
15 Q. It was a state court?
16 A. I believe. I checked to make sure that it wasn't this
17 court. It was not this court.
18 Q. All right.
19 And you are not seeking to be exempt from this service
20 because of that service?
21 A. No.
22 Q. All right.
23 Juror 126, we will ask you to continue to participate
24 in this process and that means that we will ask you to call
25 back on June 18th. Mr. Fletcher will give you a note to just
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1 tell you who to call and please remember to follow my
2 continuing instructions. Please don't talk about this case at
3 all or anything or anyone with anything to do with it. Please
4 remember not to look at or listen to anything to do with the
5 case. If you see something just -- or hear something, just
6 turn away. Remember to keep an open mind until if you are
7 chosen as a juror in the case you have heard all of the
8 evidence, I have instructed you on the law and you have gone to
9 the jury room to begin your deliberations.
10 All right?
11 A. All right.
12 Q. Have a good day.
13 A. Okay, thank you.
14 (Juror absent)
15 THE COURT: Juror 129.
16 (Juror present)
17 BY THE COURT:
18 Q. Good afternoon, juror 129.
19 A. High.
20 Q. How are you?
21 A. Fine.
22 Q. Since you were here last has anything changed concerning
23 your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has anything
24 occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a fair and
25 impartial juror in this case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. All right.
3 A. The only thing that has changed, I do have vacation
4 scheduled for July 4 weekend, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and
5 Sunday.
6 Q. Okay.
7 Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I know that we are taking a July 4th weekend and I wasn't
10 sure if we were going to take the holiday on Monday or
11 Thursday. July 4th is what day of the week, do you recall?
12 A. It's Sunday.
13 Q. Sunday. Of course, we don't sit on Fridays.
14 It is also true that if there is a very significant
15 personal issue that someone has we can take that into account
16 in the course of the trial. It's a relatively long trial.
17 Would it be a problem for you if we sat on that Thursday?
18 A. Yes, my flight leaves that morning, Thursday.
19 Q. Okay.
20 But you would be back then --
21 A. On Sunday.
22 Q. On Sunday?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You may find yourself, if you were on the jury and had
25 plans that couldn't be changed, being the reason that other
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1 people also have a holiday so I think this is something we
2 could work around. I appreciate your bringing it to my
3 attention.
4 I am not sure if I asked, but it now appears that the
5 jury will be chosen on Monday, June 21st, so you won't be
6 called back or have to call in until June 18th. I know you
7 have told me about the four-day July 4th weekend, but does the
8 schedule as I have laid it out to you, does that present any
9 serious hardship for you?
10 A. No, it doesn't.
11 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
12 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
13 the case?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
16 any other prospective jurors or anyone here at the courthouse?
17 A. No.
18 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
19 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You mentioned that your sister is in the National Guard.
22 Is she currently in the National Guard?
23 A. No, she isn't.
24 Q. When did she cease to be in the National Guard?
25 A. It had to be at least 5 years ago or longer.
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1 Q. Okay. Anything about that that would prevent you from
2 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You mentioned that you had a family member who was the
5 victim of a serious crime?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And was that your husband?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And can you just tell me about that? You had also
10 indicated that your husband had spent time in prison, is that
11 right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And that your husband was falsely accused?
14 A. That is what he said but that is not what the jury said.
15 Q. Oh, okay. I understand.
16 A. He still served his time though.
17 Q. I am sorry?
18 A. He did serve his time.
19 Q. Okay.
20 And that is the situation that you were referring to
21 when you said that he was the victim?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Because he said that he was innocent and you believed him?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Okay.
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1 Can you tell me what it was that your husband was
2 convicted of?
3 A. He was convicted of rape and robbery in the first degree.
4 Q. Okay.
5 And you have been separated for over ten years?
6 A. It was considered a separation from the time they sentenced
7 him to prison but we like officially separated like when he
8 came home like 4, 4 years ago or so but we are still married
9 but I am not with him.
10 Q. Okay. And tell me, he spent about 18 years --
11 A. He did do 18 years.
12 Q. And that was in state court? He was convicted in state
13 court?
14 A. Yes, I guess it would be state.
15 Q. Did you go to the trial?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. And did you visit him when he was in prison?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. Now, as a result of those experiences, could you be a fair
20 and impartial juror in this case?
21 A. Yes, I can.
22 Q. Would you hold it against any of the parties in this case
23 that your husband was convicted and sentenced and you and he
24 believed that that was wrong?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, would you
2 listen to the evidence in this case and decide this case based
3 solely on the evidence or lack of evidence and my instructions
4 on the law?
5 A. Yes, I would.
6 Q. And can you do that?
7 A. Yes, I can.
8 Q. Do you have any question in your mind about your ability to
9 do that?
10 A. No.
11 Q. The charges in this case plainly have nothing to do with
12 the charges involving your husband, right?
13 A. Not at all. That is like a done deal now. It has been so
14 long ago, like 1983 this all happened. It's like really in the
15 past.
16 Q. Okay.
17 In responding to the questions there was one question
18 that I asked, and let me go over it with you. I explained that
19 it's likely that this case will receive ongoing media attention
20 and I want to assure that this case is decided solely on the
21 evidence or lack of evidence that is received here in the
22 courtroom and not based upon anything that may be written about
23 or said outside the courtroom. So I will instruct the jurors
24 that they must avoid reading about the case in the newspapers,
25 listening to any radio or television reports, or reading any
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1 Internet coverage or discussion about the case. And I will
2 instruct the jurors that they are to avoid discussing the case
3 with friends or family during the course of the trial.
4 Will you follow those instructions?
5 A. Yes, I will.
6 Q. I wasn't sure if maybe there was a mistake on the
7 questionnaire because when I said would following the court's
8 directives pose any difficulty for you and you had said yes,
9 but it came in line with some other questions that you had
10 answered yes to, so would following that directive pose any
11 difficulty for you?
12 A. No, it won't.
13 Q. As you can tell from all of my questions, the fundamental
14 issue is whether there is anything in your personal history or
15 life experience, whether I have asked you about it specifically
16 or not, that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
17 juror in this case, so let me ask you one final time whether
18 there is anything, whether I have asked you about it
19 specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a fair
20 and impartial juror in this case?
21 A. No.
22 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, would you
23 decide this case based solely upon the evidence or lack of
24 evidence and my instructions on the law?
25 A. Yes, I would.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 Could you step out just for a moment?
3 (Juror absent)
4 MR. TIGAR: Would the court inquire whether her
5 husband's lawyer was hired, retained or appointed and was she
6 satisfied with the services of that lawyer or even should the
7 court prefer a more general question whether there is anything
8 about her husband's experience with the lawyer that would
9 affect her in this case?
10 THE COURT: Nothing?
11 MR. MORVILLO: No follow-up.
12 THE COURT: I will ask some question in that area and
13 if it doesn't produce anything I will ask the juror to return
14 on June 18th.
15 No challenges, right?
16 MR. RUHNKE: That is correct, your Honor.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 (Juror present)
19 BY THE COURT:
20 Q. Just a follow-up question.
21 During your husband's case did you know the lawyer who
22 represented your husband?
23 A. He was a Legal Aid lawyer.
24 Q. Okay.
25 Is there anything about that lawyer or your
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1 interactions with that lawyer or anything like that that would
2 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
3 A. No. And three wasn't too much interaction with me and the
4 Legal Aid attorney with me.
5 Q. Okay.
6 Juror Number 129, you are still involved in the
7 process and I will ask you to call back on June 18th and Mr.
8 Fletcher will give you a slip of paper indicating who you
9 should call back.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. So call back June 1. Remember to follow my continuing
12 instruction, don't talk about the case or anything to do with
13 it. Don't look at, listen to or read anything to do with the
14 case. If you should see something just turn away. Remember,
15 as I tell all the jurors, please remember to keep an open mind
16 until if you are selected as a juror you have heard all of the
17 evidence, I have instructed you on the law and you have gone to
18 the jury room to begin your deliberations. Fairness and
19 justice requires that you do that, all right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 (Juror absent)
23 THE CLERK: 131.
24 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, I don't know how much longer
25 you are going but my client has asked if we can take a break.
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1 THE COURT: Okay. Maybe we should take a break then.
2 We have 4 more jurors who are waiting and I would like to try
3 and get through them rather than have them come back. So let's
4 take 5 minutes and, Donnie, ask the juror to wait please.
5 I will deal with the civil conferences after this is
6 over.
7 (Recess)
8 THE COURT: Please be seated.
9 The the next juror will be number 130.
10 Before we bring 130 in I have a question, which is
11 this questionnaire was marked with a note about potential
12 conflict.
13 MR. FALLICK: The only reason we marked that is my
14 firm represents Columbia Presbyterian Hospital and and Ms.
15 Stewart indicated some connection to the hospital.
16 THE COURT: Okay, thank you.
17 MR. FALLICK: I didn't think it was anything but as a
18 matter of caution --
19 THE COURT: I don't see it as anything. Maybe I will
20 ask an additional question as to whether the jury is familiar
21 with any of the lawyers in the case.
22 Let's bring in the juror.
23 (Juror present)
24 BY THE COURT:
25 Q. Please, have a seat.
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1 Good afternoon, Juror 130.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. Since you were here last has anything changed concerning
4 your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has anything
5 occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a fair and
6 impartial juror in this case?
7 A. No.
8 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
9 chosen in the case will be Monday, June 21st. So after today
10 it's unlikely you will be called to come back before June 18th.
11 You will be asked to call in on June 18. Does that present any
12 serious hardship for you?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
15 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
16 the case?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case?
19 A. Nobody, no.
20 Q. And that includes any conversations here at the courthouse
21 or with any other prospective jurors?
22 A. No.
23 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
24 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. You mentioned that you have an asthma problem and that that
2 is under control, is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is there anything about your asthma that would interfere
5 with your ability to be a fair and impartial juror in the case?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you take any medicine for your asthma?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you take it daily?
10 A. Asthma, yes, every day one time in the morning.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. And also Estelin for the nose, which is for allergy.
13 Q. What kind of medicine is it that you take for your asthma?
14 A. Palmacor I think is the name, Palmacor. This is a spray.
15 Q. It's a spray?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And do you that in the morning?
18 A. Mostly in the morning, yes.
19 Q. Is there anything about the medicine that you take that
20 interferes with your ability to concentrate or think or
21 anything like that?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You indicated that you worked in nutrition and food service
24 and could you tell me what kind of a firm is it? Don't tell me
25 what company it is but just tell me what kind of a company it
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1 is that you work for that you do your work for?
2 A. It's a hospital.
3 Q. It's a hospital, okay.
4 And can you tell me, you mentioned that your father is
5 deceased. What did your father do?
6 A. He was a plumber.
7 Q. A plumber, okay.
8 Can you tell me is your mother employed?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Has she been employed in the past?
11 A. No, she was a housewife.
12 Q. She is a housewife.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You mentioned that there was one case where you served as a
15 juror and it was maybe 5 years ago, is that right?
16 A. Approximately but I don't know the exact date.
17 Q. Okay.
18 And do you know, did that jury, without telling me
19 what the verdict was, was that a case where the jury reached a
20 verdict?
21 A. No. I just came here and I was sitting like 5 or 6 hours
22 like that and finally they made the decision to go home and
23 that is it.
24 Q. Okay. So you did not actually sit as a juror in that case?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 You mentioned that you had heard about Sheikh Abdel
3 Rahman.
4 A. I heard his name in the newspaper, television, like that.
5 Q. Okay.
6 What do you recall seeing or reading or hearing about
7 him?
8 A. About like I had people talking about something World Trade
9 Center brokein in 1992 or '93, and at that time I had the name
10 and sometime some people say his name, that is it. I didn't
11 know anything more, only name I heard sometime.
12 Q. Okay.
13 Do you recall anything else?
14 A. No.
15 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would have
16 to decide this case based solely upon the evidence or lack of
17 evidence that you heard in court from the witness stand and any
18 documents in evidence. You would have to put aside anything
19 that you had seen, heard or read about Sheikh Rahman or
20 anything else and decide the case based solely on the evidence
21 or lack of evidence in court.
22 Do you understand that?
23 A. Anything document like that, no.
24 Q. No, let me go back. You have told me that you have heard
25 something about Sheikh Rahman, right?
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1 A. Right.
2 Q. And you told me what it was. And what I am explaining to
3 you now is that if you were chosen as a juror what you would
4 have to do is to put aside anything that you had heard outside
5 of court, anything in the past, and just listen to the evidence
6 or lack of evidence in court and decide the case based solely
7 upon the evidence or lack of evidence in court.
8 Do you understand that?
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. Yes? Can you do that?
11 A. No. I don't know about this everything, nothing.
12 Q. Could you step out just for a moment.
13 (Juror absent)
14 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, there does appear to be a
15 language complication and there is a challenge for cause.
16 MR. MORVILLO: The government agrees.
17 THE COURT: So do I.
18 Let's call the juror back.
19 (Juror present)
20 BY THE COURT:
21 Q. Juror 130, I have decided to excuse you but I want you to
22 understand that I very much appreciate your participating in
23 this process. I know that it has been a long process filling
24 out the questionnaire and coming back and responding to these
25 questions. But I want you to appreciate that I appreciate your
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1 doing this and I want you to appreciate also that by
2 participating in this process of jury selection you have
3 performed a public service and you should take away from this
4 process that personal satisfaction of knowing that you have
5 performed a public service, that you have participated in the
6 administration of justice by participating in the jury
7 selection process. So at this point you can go home and all of
8 the paperwork will be taken care of by mail.
9 A. Okay. Thank you very much, all of you.
10 (Juror absent)
11 THE COURT: Juror 131.
12 (Juror present)
13 BY THE COURT:
14 Q. Good afternoon Juror 131.
15 A. Good afternoon.
16 Q. It's nice to see you.
17 Let me ask you some preliminary questions. Since you
18 were here last has anything changed concerning your ability to
19 serve as a juror in this case or has anything occurred to you
20 that may affect your ability to be a fair and impartial juror
21 in this case?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay.
24 Could you keep your voice up and talk into the
25 microphone? It's a big courtroom and sometimes the voices
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1 don't carry.
2 It now appears that the date that the final jury will
3 be chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So after
4 today you won't have to come back or call in until June 18th
5 when you would be asked to call in. Does that present any
6 serious hardship for you?
7 A. No. I have a vacation planned after the 18th.
8 Q. When are your vacation plans?
9 A. June 23rd, beginning June 23rd and ending June 28th.
10 Q. June 23rd to June 28th?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. If you were selected as a juror on June 21st, that would be
13 the beginning of the trial, which would then last for 4 to 6
14 months and you would have to change your vacation plans. For
15 example, do them earlier before June 18th or defer them until
16 after the trial was over.
17 Could you do that?
18 A. I wouldn't want to do that but if I was forced to do that I
19 would do it.
20 Q. Do you have any tickets that you purchased already or
21 anything that is so irrevocable that you couldn't change it?
22 A. Yes, because it's a conference actually and it would be
23 over.
24 Q. Okay.
25 But you have to tell me. You say -- were you going to
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1 go by car or by plane?
2 A. By plane.
3 Q. It's very important that the parties have a jury selected
4 from a cross section of the community and everyone has
5 responsibilities and everyone has plans and it's not uncommon
6 that people go on vacation over the summer, but the parties in
7 the case are entitled to have a jury of citizens who are -- who
8 understand the importance of jury service and who are prepared
9 to make the sacrifices to be on the jury that everyone has
10 because it takes them away from what they regularly do. And so
11 would you be able to serve on the jury in a case that begins on
12 June 21st and would you be able to serve on that jury if you
13 were selected?
14 It would mean that obviously you wouldn't be going
15 away on the 23rd to the 28th but we would sit the 21st, Monday
16 the 21st, through Thursday, the 24th. We wouldn't sit Friday,
17 the 25th, or Saturday or Sunday, the 26th or the 27th, so that
18 if there were a conference that you were going to you could
19 always go for those days. But that is the schedule and would
20 sitting on this jury with that schedule be a serious hardship
21 for you?
22 A. It would be an inconvenience for me. I can't say a
23 hardship. I would miss out on --
24 Q. Keep your voice up.
25 A. It wouldn't be as much of a hardship but it would be a
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1 great inconvenience because of the significance of the
2 conference itself.
3 Q. You are very forthright. It would be a great inconvenience
4 but not a hardship.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. If you were chosen as a juror would you hold it against any
7 of the parties that you were asked to serve as a juror in this
8 case?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Would it interfere with your ability to be a fair and
11 impartial juror and to give the parties in this case a fair
12 trial?
13 A. No, I don't think so.
14 Q. Okay.
15 You mentioned that serving on the jury would cause you
16 economic hardship but at the same time you said that you would
17 be paid your salary while you were on jury duty.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I don't understand why it would be an economic hardship if
20 you would be paid your salary.
21 A. No, it will not be an economic hardship.
22 Q. Okay.
23 Q. Do you take any medication that might make it difficult for
24 you to pay attention or concentrate or be difficult to sit as a
25 juror in this case?
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1 A. No. I take Hyzaar for high blood pressure.
2 Q. High blood pressure, okay.
3 What medicine is it that you take for the high blood
4 pressure?
5 A. It's called Hyzaar.
6 Q. Is there anything about that medication that would
7 interfere with your ability to be a fair and impartial juror in
8 this case?
9 A. No.
10 Q. By the way, if any medication, and this sometimes happens
11 with medication that people take for high blood pressure, if
12 any of the medication causes a juror to have to go to the rest
13 room, we take breaks and if a juror needed a break all the
14 juror has to do is raise his or her hand.
15 You said that there were some family obligations or
16 other problems that might make it difficult for you to serve as
17 a juror in the case.
18 A. Yes, I have younger children, teenage children. And my
19 mother is 80 years old.
20 Q. Okay. Is there anything about the care that you provide to
21 your mother or children that would prevent you from or cause a
22 serious hardship for you if you were a juror in this case?
23 A. Not so much a hardship but an inconvenience.
24 Q. Okay.
25 You mentioned that you had gotten a Bachelors in
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1 criminal justice.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Where did you get that from?
4 A. Iona College in New Rochelle.
5 Q. And you said you have a Masters in public administration.
6 Where did you get that from?
7 A. Pace University in White Plains.
8 Q. Okay.
9 You mentioned that your husband was self-employed in
10 the law?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you tell me what area of the law your husband practices
13 in?
14 A. He is an attorney. He is a partner in a law firm.
15 Q. Don't tell me what law firm.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. But does he have a particular area that he practices in,
18 either real estate law or corporate law or tax or criminal law?
19 Do you know?
20 A. I don't know.
21 (Continued on next page)
22
23
24
25
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Okay. Does he work for a large law firm, a small law firm,
3 medium size? Do you know?
4 A. Medium size.
5 Q. You had indicated to me that with respect to your hobbies
6 and personal -- hobbies, interests, recreational pastimes, what
7 you do in your free time, that it was personal. Would you tell
8 me what it is? What you regularly do in your spare time. How
9 you like to use your spare time? I'm not sure what personal
10 meant there whether you just use it for personal activities or
11 whether there are some specific hobbies or interests that you
12 particularly engage in?
13 A. I felt it gave me a choice. I just wrote "personal". I go
14 to church a lot. I make dolls.
15 Q. I'm sorry, you --
16 A. Make dolls.
17 Q. Make --
18 A. Dolls. D-o-l-l-s.
19 Q. Oh, okay.
20 You mention that you had been a witness in a family
21 court proceeding. Could you tell me what that was about?
22 A. A witness in a family court proceeding?
23 Q. There was a question that said, have you ever been a
24 witness or given a statement in any type of legal proceeding,
25 for example, in a court of law, a grand jury proceeding, or a
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1 deposition, and you said, yes. And then: Briefly describe the
2 circumstances? And you said: Family court.
3 A. Family court. I work with family court. I testify on
4 cases.
5 Q. Was that in connection with work?
6 A. With work, yes.
7 Q. Okay. Oh, okay. What kind of cases do you testify for in
8 connection with your work?
9 A. Children that are in residential care, residential
10 treatment centers.
11 Q. I see. And does that work bring you in contact with police
12 officers and lawyers?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is there anything about that work that prevents you from
15 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You mention that you had relatives who had training in the
18 law. You've mentioned your husband. And you also said then
19 that you have a sister, uncle and cousins who are police
20 officers.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you tell me, do they all work for the police department
25 here in New York City?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Can you describe generally what they do or where they work?
3 A. One is a sergeant in Westchester County. And two are
4 officers in Westchester County jail.
5 Q. Okay. And what does your sister do in the law? Is she a
6 police officer?
7 A. Yes, she's a sergeant.
8 Q. I'm sorry?
9 A. She's a sergeant.
10 Q. She's a sergeant. Now, is there anything about that that
11 would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this
12 case?
13 A. I don't think so.
14 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, one of the
15 instructions that I give is that no witness is entitled to any
16 greater or lesser credibility just because of their occupation.
17 Just because a person is a police officer doesn't mean that
18 this person is -- or any kind of law enforcement officer --
19 doesn't mean that that person is entitled to any greater or
20 lesser credibility solely because of that person's occupation.
21 Would you follow that instruction?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And can you do that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You mentioned in response to a question about the people
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1 you know in the area of law enforcement that you had family and
2 close friends who were associated with a prosecutor's office or
3 a law enforcement agency. Other than the relatives who are
4 with the police, do you have any other family or close friends
5 who are in a prosecutor's office or law enforcement agency?
6 A. Friends that work in family court.
7 Q. Okay. Anything about that that would prevent you from
8 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You mention that you also have family and friends who work
11 for a public defender's office or a criminal defense attorney
12 or legal aid. Who is that? Just -- don't tell me any names,
13 but --
14 A. Some friends and associates.
15 Q. Friends. And do you have any family who work for criminal
16 defense lawyers or Legal Aid?
17 A. Like I said, if you are excluding my husband.
18 Q. Does your husband do work for Legal Aid or criminal
19 defense?
20 A. He does work sometimes for Legal Aid.
21 Q. Anything about that, those relationships that would prevent
22 you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You mention that you also -- you work for foster care
25 casework. Do you work for the city or a private organization?
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1 A. For the county.
2 Q. County. Okay. And do you have -- besides yourself, who in
3 your family or close friends works for a federal or state
4 investigative agency?
5 A. I have a sister.
6 Q. Right.
7 A. Another sister.
8 Q. Another sister. Okay. Can you tell me what agency, what
9 kind of investigative agency that sister works for. Don't tell
10 me which one in particular, but just what kind of an agency, is
11 it, federal, state or --
12 A. State.
13 Q. Okay. A state investigative agency?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And do you have close friends who work at federal or state
16 investigative agencies?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And what kind of agencies, state, federal?
19 A. State.
20 Q. Okay. Anything about any of those relationships that would
21 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You mention that you have family and friends who are --
24 work for a corrections agency.
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Can you just -- how close family -- are these people who
2 are corrections officers?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And how close family, friends?
5 A. Cousins.
6 Q. Okay. And you also have friends who work?
7 A. Friends, yes.
8 Q. Are these all for the New York State corrections agencies?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you mention that you have a close friend who works for
11 the Court system?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What kind of work does that person do?
14 A. She's a -- I want to say legal guardian but it's not a
15 legal guardian. More like, I guess, a legal clerk. I'm not
16 sure.
17 Q. Legal clerk, okay. Anything about any of those
18 relationships that will prevent you from being a fair and
19 impartial juror in this case?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You mention that you have a coworker who is a person of
22 Middle Eastern descent.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know from where in the Middle East?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. And is there anything about that that would prevent you
2 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You mention that you knew people who were injured or killed
5 in the World Trade Center on 9/11.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you tell me, without mentioning any specific names,
8 just tell me how many people and what their relationship was to
9 you?
10 A. A pastor's son; a friend of a friend's son; one of my
11 co-doll-maker's son-in-law.
12 Q. One of your co-doll-maker's son-in-law?
13 A. Son-in-law.
14 Q. Right.
15 A. And a girlfriend's -- well, she didn't get killed in it,
16 but she was in it. Her sister.
17 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let me explain something: This case has
18 nothing to do with 9/11. None of the defendants are charged
19 with any offenses in connection with 9/11. None of the charges
20 in the case concern 9/11. There's nothing about the case that
21 concerns 9/11.
22 Is there anything about your experiences with people
23 you know or have relations to in one way or another who were
24 victims of 9/11? Is there anything about that that would
25 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
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1 A. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
2 Q. Not sure. You know, you are a -- you're a very intelligent
3 person who has had lots of connections with the system of
4 justice; you've studied it, you work with it, you know people
5 at all levels on all sides of the process. And so you also
6 know that the parties in the case are entitled to have a jury
7 that's fair and impartial, and a jury that goes into the case
8 with the belief that they will be fair and impartial. And so,
9 you know, tell me: Do you have questions about -- do you have
10 doubts about whether you could provide the parties in this case
11 a fair trial?
12 A. I don't know, I don't think so.
13 Q. I'm sorry?
14 A. I don't think so.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. Thinking about it.
17 Q. Could you step out, please?
18 (Juror absent)
19 THE COURT: Should the juror be stricken for cause?
20 MR. TIGAR: The defense has no objection, Judge.
21 MR. MORVILLO: The government has no objection.
22 THE COURT: All right. Bring the juror back.
23 (Juror present)
24 BY THE COURT:
25 Q. Juror 131, I'm going to excuse you, and I very much
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1 appreciate your having participated in the process, and I hope
2 that you take away from this experience the personal
3 satisfaction of knowing that you have performed a public
4 service by participating in this process.
5 So again, I appreciate your having participated in the
6 process. You can go home and all of the paperwork will be
7 taken care of in the mail.
8 A. Thank you.
9 (Juror absent)
10 THE COURT: Juror 133.
11 (Juror present)
12 BY THE COURT:
13 Q. Good afternoon.
14 A. Good afternoon.
15 Q. Juror 133, let me ask you some preliminary questions.
16 Since you were here last, has anything changed concerning your
17 ability to serve as a juror in this case or has anything
18 occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a fair and
19 impartial juror in the case?
20 A. No, not really.
21 Q. Okay. And you say not really. Is there anything?
22 A. Well, on the questionnaire I was asked -- I can't sit for
23 long periods of time.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. Because I'm on medication.
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1 Q. I was going to get to that.
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. And let me -- I see that you've indicated to us that you
4 take a pill, and I'm familiar with the pill.
5 A. I have high blood pressure.
6 Q. Right. And that -- that pill, I take it, makes it
7 necessary for you to use the rest room on some occasions?
8 A. Water pill.
9 Q. Right.
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. I know what --
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. And that pill doesn't interfere with your ability to
14 concentrate or pay attention?
15 A. No.
16 Q. What the pill does is it may mean that you need to use the
17 rest room, right?
18 A. (Witness nods head)
19 Q. We sit from 9:30 until -- our regular hours are from about
20 9:30 until 12:45; and then in the afternoon, from 2:00 until
21 4:30. We take a break in the morning; we take a break in the
22 afternoon. So it is unlikely at anytime that we sit more than
23 an hour and a half. And if for any reason a juror needed a
24 break for any reason, the juror can just raise the juror's hand
25 and we'll take a break. And it's a long trial, and I very much
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1 want to accommodate the personal needs and conveniences of the
2 jurors.
3 So, having said that, is there anything about the fact
4 that you take a water pill that would prevent you from being --
5 from serving as a juror in the case?
6 A. No, I don't think so.
7 Q. Okay. The date that the final jury will be chosen in this
8 case will be Monday, June the 21st. So after today, it's
9 unlikely that you will be called to come back before June 18th.
10 On June 18th, you'd have to call in, and then come back June
11 the 21st.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. Is there anything about that that would present any serious
14 hardship for you?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Can you make sure to talk into the microphone?
17 A. Oh, okay. I'm sorry.
18 Q. That's good. Since you were here last, have you spoken to
19 anyone about the case or have you looked at or listened to
20 anything about the case?
21 A. Not this particular case, no. But -- no.
22 Q. Okay. Have you looked at anything to do with this case?
23 A. In the newspapers, you know.
24 Q. This case?
25 A. No, no. Not this case.
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1 Q. What are you referring to that's been in the newspaper?
2 A. Well, okay, just for instance today, okay, there's
3 something going on from the people that were working down at
4 ground zero. They're getting sick now.
5 Q. Right.
6 A. A lot of them.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. Okay. My brother was down there. And, you know -- you
9 know, stuff like that. You can't just not -- you know, I watch
10 TV; you know, I look at the newspaper, and -- you know. You
11 can't help not see it. You can't help it.
12 Q. This case -- there are lots of stories in the news about
13 lots of different things and lots of different cases.
14 A. Right.
15 Q. This particular case does not concern 9/11.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. And the charges against the defendants in this case do not
18 concern 9/11. None of the defendants in this case are accused
19 with any charges concerning 9/11. This is a different case,
20 which is why I asked you at the outset what it was that you
21 were referring to.
22 So is there anything about your experiences with 9/11
23 or with your brother's being a victim of 9/11, is there
24 anything that would interfere with your ability to give the
25 parties in this case a fair trial?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. Can you tell me why that is?
3 A. Well, their whole thing -- it bothered me. I saw the
4 towers go down. And my son is handicapped. He was down here
5 when it happened, and I couldn't find him at first. And it
6 was -- it was very traumatic for me. Because I had to leave my
7 job, and I didn't even know where to go look for him. But he
8 was all right, thank God. He got back on the bus and went back
9 home because of what he saw. But it was just -- I had a couple
10 of friends that died in the World Trade Center -- I mean, you
11 know -- so, you know.
12 Q. All right.
13 I appreciate what you've told me. Could you step out
14 for a moment?
15 A. Step out?
16 Q. Yeah, just -- please, step out for a moment.
17 (Juror absent)
18 THE COURT: I'm prepared to excuse the juror.
19 MR. RUHNKE: We have no objection.
20 MR. DEMBER: No objection, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: All right.
22 (Juror present)
23 BY THE COURT:
24 Q. Juror 133, I'm going to excuse you, and I want you to
25 understand that I very much appreciate your participating in
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1 the process. The time that you have spent filling out the
2 questionnaire, coming in, talking to me about all this, I
3 appreciate all of that. And I also want to make sure that you
4 understand that by participating in this process, you've
5 performed a public service, and you should take away from this
6 process that personal satisfaction of knowing that you have
7 performed a public service. And so again, I appreciate your
8 having come in, and I appreciate your having performed a public
9 service.
10 A. You're welcome.
11 Q. You can go home now. And all of the paperwork will be
12 taken care of by mail.
13 A. Okay. Thank you.
14 (Juror absent)
15 THE COURT: All right. Juror Number 135.
16 (Juror present)
17 BY THE COURT:
18 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 135.
19 A. Hi.
20 Q. You had indicated that serving on this jury would be a
21 serious hardship for you.
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. Could you explain that for me?
24 A. I'm sole support of my husband, myself, my five dogs. I
25 have no other income. If I don't get paid by my company, I
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1 can't pay my rent or other bills and obligations.
2 Q. Okay. Do you know if your company would pay your salary?
3 A. I do not know.
4 Q. If your company paid your salary, it would not be an
5 economic hardship for you?
6 A. It wouldn't be a financial hardship.
7 Q. Okay. What other hardship would it be?
8 A. I've already decided what I feel about this case and I did
9 the day I saw it announced on the news on the television.
10 Q. I'm sorry, what?
11 A. I already know and have decided what I feel about this
12 case, and did so the first time I heard it on television. I
13 think that was about a year or two ago.
14 Q. All right. And you would not listen to the evidence and
15 decide the case based on the evidence?
16 A. I would listen to the evidence. I feel that I am
17 predisposed.
18 Q. Well, people come in with various views. The issue is,
19 will they put all of those views aside and decide the case
20 based solely on the evidence and in reliance on my instructions
21 of the law?
22 A. That question was asked on the questionnaire. I was not
23 able to answer it then; I'm not able to answer it now. I can't
24 say that I fairly could do that.
25 Q. Okay. Could you step out for a moment?
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1 (Juror absent)
2 MR. RUHNKE: No argument to a cause challenge.
3 MR. DEMBER: We agree, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Yeah, okay. Bring her in. Bring in Juror
5 Number 35.
6 (Continued on next page)
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1 (Juror present)
2 BY THE COURT:
3 Q. Juror 135, I will excuse you and I very much appreciate
4 your having participated in the process. I appreciate your
5 answering the questionnaire and coming in today and I want you
6 to know that by doing this you performed a public service and
7 so I hope you appreciate that and take away the satisfaction of
8 knowing that you have performed a public service.
9 A. Thank you.
10 Q. You can go home and the paperwork will be taken care of by
11 mail.
12 A. Thank you.
13 (Juror absent)
14 THE COURT: All right, 144.
15 (Juror present)
16 BY THE COURT:
17 Q. Please have a seat.
18 Good afternoon, juror 144.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 Q. Since you were here last has anything changed concerning
21 your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has anything
22 occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a fair and
23 impartial juror in this case?
24 A. I have asbestos in my lungs and I have bleeding internally.
25 Q. You are internal bleeding now?
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1 A. Yes, that is what the doctors say.
2 Q. You weren't aware of that when you filled out --
3 A. Yes, I was.
4 Q. Because when you filled out the questionnaire you had not
5 indicated a medical problem.
6 A. I didn't realize what I was doing.
7 Q. It has come since then?
8 A. I had it before but I have been taking tests on it.
9 Q. Would serving as a juror in this case be a medical hardship
10 for you?
11 A. It wouldn't be fair to the parties involved, the people
12 involved.
13 Q. Why not?
14 A. Because I don't think I could serve, keep my mind on it.
15 Q. Okay. Can you step out for a moment.
16 (Juror absent)
17 MR. MORVILLO: The government agrees.
18 MR. RUHNKE: We agree, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: I will excuse Juror 144.
20 (Juror present)
21 BY THE COURT:
22 Q. Juror 144, I am going to excuse you and I am sure that I
23 speak for everyone when I say that we are concerned for your
24 physical well-being and we wish you well in terms of your
25 medical condition and we appreciate the fact that you came in
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1 and filled out the questionnaire and then came back today and
2 answered further questions. Again, we appreciate your
3 participation. You are going to be excused now. You can go
4 home and all of the paperwork will be taken care of by mail.
5 A. Thank you, sir.
6 (Juror absent)
7 THE COURT: That completes today. We will call in the
8 next 20 tomorrow, ten and ten, ten in the morning, ten in the
9 afternoon. That takes us into the questionnaires that you had
10 given me over the weekend. You should give me another 20 with
11 any additional questions by Wednesday just so that we stay
12 ahead, and you should get back to me on those other
13 questionnaires that I had indicated that it appeared that there
14 was -- that the parties agreed on strikes.
15 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, on this schedule we
16 respectfully request that our comments on our opponent's
17 instructions now be due instead of this coming Wednesday a week
18 from today, that is to say, next Monday.
19 THE COURT: That is fine.
20 The government has no problem with that either?
21 MR. MORVILLO: We do not, your Honor.
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 MR. TIGAR: That would be next Tuesday, because we
24 have Monday off.
25 THE COURT: Right, that is fine. Sure.
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1 MR. TIGAR: Thank you.
2 THE COURT: Next Tuesday is fine. If as the week goes
3 by you want more time on that it seems to me that is perfectly
4 reasonable. Anything else? Please be here at 9:15 tomorrow
5 morning. I look forward to seeing you then.
6 (Trial adjourned to March 25, 2004 at 9:15 a.m.)
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