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25 May 2004
Source: Digital file from Southern District Reporters Office; (212) 805-0300.
This is the transcript of Day 5 of the trial.
See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ssy-dt.htm
Lynne Stewart web site with case documents: http://www.lynnestewart.org/
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1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 ------------------------------x
2
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
3
4 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK)
4
5 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar,"
5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART,
6 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY,
6
7 Defendants.
7
8 ------------------------------x
8
9
9 New York, N.Y.
10 May 25, 2004
10 10:45 a.m.
11
11 Before:
12
12 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL
13
13 District Judge
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 APPEARANCES
1
2 DAVID N. KELLEY
2 United States Attorney for the
3 Southern District of New York
3 ROBIN BAKER
4 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO
4 ANTHONY BARKOW
5 ANDREW DEMBER
5 Assistant United States Attorneys
6
6 KENNETH A. PAUL
7 BARRY M. FALLICK
7 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar
8
8 MICHAEL TIGAR
9 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE
9 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart
10
10 DAVID STERN
11 DAVID A. RUHNKE
11 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry
12
12
13
14
15
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 (Trial resumed)
2 THE COURT: Good morning all. Please be seated.
3 Mr. Dember, I noted the other day that we were
4 beginning late and I thought I was right, that the reason that
5 we began a bit late the other day was that there was a problem
6 of lack of communication with the marshals. We are beginning
7 late today because of a similar issue.
8 MR. DEMBER: That is not my understanding at all. Ms.
9 Baker can speak more intelligently about this.
10 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, my office had placed what we
11 refer to as a standing order with the Marshals Service that
12 starting last Wednesday with the beginning of voir dire that
13 Mr. Sattar be produced for trial every day until further order.
14 This morning when Mr. Sattar was not produced, when he
15 belatedly did get here, I spoke with the two deputies who
16 arrived with him and asked them to confirm to me that in fact
17 there is a standing order in place and they confirmed that
18 there is.
19 I asked whether that is in fact the proper procedure
20 for getting Mr. Sattar produced every day and they confirmed
21 that it is and that there is nothing else that the government
22 appropriately needs to do to make that happen. And that it was
23 essentially a internal miscommunication or lack of somebody
24 within one of the sections of the Marshals Service taking the
25 appropriate step to make it happen.
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1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 Can you follow up with the Marshals Service?
3 MS. BAKER: Yes, your Honor. I will call Mr.
4 Guccione, who is the marshal, and make him aware that we have
5 had delays on more than one occasion so far and ask him to
6 please instruct that the order be more carefully complied with
7 in the future.
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 Juror 148 has a medical emergency upstate with an
10 elderly parent and will be available on June 1st.
11 We have Jurors 145, 146, 149, 153, 154, 157, 158 and
12 159 who are here.
13 Juror 156 is not here yet, or Mr. Fletcher didn't
14 believe that 156 was here. Whether 156 is on his or her way, I
15 don't know.
16 So let's begin with Juror 145.
17 (Juror present)
18 BY THE COURT:
19 Q. Good morning, Juror 145.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. Good to see you.
22 A. Thank you.
23 Q. Since you were here last has anything changed concerning
24 your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has anything
25 occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a fair and
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1 impartial juror in this case?
2 A. Nothing has changed.
3 Q. Okay.
4 It now appears that the date that the final jury will
5 be chosen will be Monday, June 21st, so after today it's
6 unlikely that you will be asked to call in before June 18th.
7 Does that present any serious hardship for you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
10 this case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
11 the case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
14 any conversations here at the courthouse or with any other
15 prospective jurors?
16 A. No.
17 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
18 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And let me go over some of the answers on the
21 questionnaire.
22 You had indicated that serving as a juror would not be
23 a serious hardship but you did point out that you are currently
24 serving as executor of your mother's estate.
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. We don't sit -- we only sit until about 4:30 every day. We
2 don't sit on Fridays or weekends. Is there anything about your
3 serving as an executor that would prevent you from being a
4 juror in this case?
5 A. The only issue would be that in fact the estate attorney
6 doesn't work Fridays so I would have to see him possibly once a
7 month or so until everything is settled, and it would have to
8 be a Monday to Thursday meeting, but they are usually no more
9 than about an hour.
10 Q. Okay. We can make exceptions.
11 The other thing is perhaps if you simply told him that
12 you were on a jury without telling him anything else about the
13 case and tell the lawyer that the judge asked if he could
14 possibly see it clear that he could at least give you an hour
15 of his time on a Friday it would be --
16 A. It's possible. He doesn't even come into the city on
17 Friday.
18 Q. Or at the end of the day.
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Okay.
21 You mentioned that you have a father and brother who
22 live in Israel. Is there anything about that that would
23 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You have told us that you were a juror in 7 cases and of
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1 those 7 cases how many were criminal?
2 A. I served on 2 federal criminal cases. The state were
3 mostly civil and they all settled prior to deliberations
4 concluding.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. Or prior to deliberations.
7 Q. All right. Have you served on any federal civil cases?
8 A. No.
9 Q. The 2 federal criminal cases that you served on, about when
10 was that?
11 A. 1975 my first jury duty and about 8 years ago was the other
12 one.
13 Q. And what was the case about in 1975?
14 A. Narcotics.
15 Q. And about 8 years ago?
16 A. Narcotics.
17 Q. Is there anything about your experience in any of those
18 cases, your experience with the court system, with the
19 participants in the court system, with any of those cases, that
20 would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this
21 case?
22 A. No, not from past experience, no.
23 Q. You indicated that you were a witness in Housing Court for
24 your parents many years ago, and they were in the process of
25 suing to evict a tenant. Anything about that experience that
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1 would prevent you from we being a fair and impartial juror in
2 this case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You mentioned that someone in your family and a close
5 friend were victims of crime. Can you just -- well, your note
6 is that you have 3 brothers and a friend, all of whom were
7 robbed, is that right?
8 A. Yes, it was all muggings, yes.
9 Q. And were any people prosecuted in connection with those
10 crimes?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Is there anything about that experience that would prevent
13 you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You mentioned that your oldest brother was accused of
16 stalking and charges were dismissed.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Anything about that that would prevent you from being a
19 fair and impartial juror in this case?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You were a nurse investigator in medical malpractice cases,
22 is that right?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. And you testified in those cases?
25 A. No, sir. It was all prelitigation.
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1 Q. Prelitigation, okay.
2 Anything about that experience would that prevent you
3 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Your mother was a volunteer for Legal Aid. How long ago
6 was that?
7 A. Pretty much until right before she died. So that was
8 February.
9 Q. I am sorry?
10 A. She volunteered up until the end of last year.
11 Q. Okay.
12 Anything about that that would prevent you from being
13 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
14 A. No.
15 Q. There were a series of questions which asked you about
16 certain kinds of evidence that might be admitted, such as
17 evidence from electronic devices known as bugs or wiretaps, and
18 the possibility that there may be conversations between
19 attorneys and their clients that might be admitted. And you
20 told us that the wiretap information would not prevent you from
21 being fair and impartial but only if legally obtained, and you
22 expressed questions about attorney-client privilege
23 conversations because you believe firmly in the privilege.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Let me explain something, and then I will ask you some
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1 other questions.
2 If any evidence is introduced in the course of the
3 trial, it is because I have found that the evidence can be
4 admitted, that it's legally admissible in court, and so it's up
5 to the jury to determine whether the charges in the indictment
6 are proved beyond a reasonable doubt based on the evidence or
7 the lack of evidence in the case. And the jury is to consider
8 all of the evidence or lack of evidence in the case in
9 determining whether the charges are proven beyond a reasonable
10 doubt.
11 There is a common charge which says government
12 investigative techniques are not the jurors' concerns. The
13 jurors' concern is whether the charges in the indictment have
14 been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. So it's not for the
15 jurors to second guess whether my rulings on the law are
16 correct or incorrect, as to whether the evidence should have
17 been admitted or not admitted. Nor is it up to the jurors to
18 say I like that kind of evidence or I don't like that kind of
19 evidence. It's up to the jurors to say there is the evidence,
20 I will consider the evidence, and determine whether the charges
21 are proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
22 So let me ask you whether any of your feelings or
23 thoughts about wiretap evidence or conversations between
24 attorneys and their clients, any of those feelings or beliefs
25 that you have would prevent you from following my instructions?
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1 A. I don't think so. I think I would be able to follow
2 instructions. I couldn't, you know, as much as I think I am
3 able to. I have done it in the past, follow the instructions.
4 Q. You know, the ultimate issue, and you are a very
5 knowledgeable and sophisticated person having served on many
6 juries, is to think about yourself and your commitments to be a
7 fair and impartial juror and I go through all of these issues
8 to raise the questions with you so that you can look at those
9 questions and say yes or no whether I will be fair and
10 impartial, whether that is an issue that would prevent me from
11 being a fair juror in this case.
12 So I have explained the kinds of evidence that may be
13 admitted. I have told you that it would be admitted because I
14 have found that it is admissible. So you tell me, will you be
15 a fair and impartial juror in a case which may contain evidence
16 like that?
17 A. Based on that question, yes, I could be. I am not
18 convinced I could be in this case but based on that question,
19 yes. You are saying evidence is admissible, that is what I
20 would judge the case on, admissible evidence.
21 Q. You say you are not sure you could be fair and impartial in
22 this case. Tell me why?
23 A. I read a lot about this case prior to being called.
24 Q. Right.
25 A. It disturbed me a lot and I am not sure considering what I
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1 thought about it prior to here and not having heard any
2 evidence, I am not sure I would actually be able to overcome
3 how I felt prior to coming in here.
4 Q. Well, what did you feel prior to coming in that you are not
5 sure you can overcome?
6 A. To be honest, I am not sure I could be fair to the
7 prosecution. I felt very strongly when I even heard about the
8 arrest that it was not something I could understand and I was
9 kind of upset about it. My family tends to be a little left
10 wing so we have somewhat of a bent that way. It bothered me a
11 lot. I did read about this case, as I said, prior to being
12 called in. And that is why I said what I did about
13 admissibility and legality. I understand what you are saying,
14 that you would not allow any evidence that is not, but that is
15 my concern.
16 Q. Okay.
17 People bring them their concerns. The question is
18 whether -- and I will go over, if you wish, in more detail
19 exactly what you have heard and read about the case. Any case
20 that receives some publicity before trial people will have seen
21 and heard and there will be some things that are written that
22 are right and there are some things that are written that are
23 wrong, and certainly nothing that has been written is evidence.
24 So you would have to listen to the evidence or lack of evidence
25 and my instructions on the law. And you say you told me a few
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1 moments agriculture not sure that you could do that.
2 Tell me, if you were chosen as a juror could you put
3 aside anything that you have seen or heard about the case and
4 under your oath as a juror decide this case based solely on the
5 evidence or lack of evidence in the case and my instructions on
6 the law?
7 A. I would certainly try as hard as I could. I believe I
8 probably could, but I am just concerned that there is that
9 little piece in the back of your head that has been there all
10 along. I would certainly try to do it only on the evidence. I
11 don't know if I would hear the evidence differently than
12 perhaps people would want me to hear it. As you said, we all
13 bring our own baggage. We all interpret differently. I would
14 try. And I think I probably could, but --
15 Q. You see, the parties, both sides in a case, and people
16 bring them all sorts of things, but both sides in the case are
17 entitled to jurors from a cross section of their community who
18 either because they haven't heard very much about the case or
19 because what they have heard hasn't influenced them or because
20 what they have heard has not so deeply moved something within
21 them, the parties are entitled to the jurors who say I will
22 decide this case based only on the evidence or lack of evidence
23 and based upon what I have heard, seen or read I tell you under
24 my oath that that is what I will do, not I will try my best.
25 You know, there is a pretty good chance I will do that.
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1 The parties are entitled to know that the jurors will
2 do that. So you have to tell me, and I will explore further
3 what you have seen, heard, read, but would you be able in this
4 case to decide the case based solely on the evidence or lack of
5 evidence and my instructions on the law despite anything that
6 you have seen, heard or read?
7 A. I think so is the best I can give you. I am sorry, your
8 Honor. I understand what you are asking me but --
9 Q. Do you have any concerns or doubts in your mind whether you
10 could do that?
11 A. I really do. I have very strong feelings about this case
12 long before the jury notice came to me. I would like to
13 believe I could do it impartially the way I am supposed to and
14 have done, but I don't know.
15 Q. Okay.
16 Could you step out?
17 A. Sure.
18 (Juror absent)
19 THE COURT: I am prepared to excuse the juror.
20 MR. DEMBER: The government moves to excuse her for
21 cause. Obviously she has indicated she cannot assure us she
22 can be fair and impartial.
23 MR. RUHNKE: We don't oppose that, your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25 (Juror present)
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Juror number 145, I will excuse you.
3 I very much appreciate your having participated in the
4 process and all of your efforts in the questionnaire and on
5 being so candid in talking to me today and you can go home now
6 and all the paperwork will be taken care of by mail.
7 A. Okay. Thank you, your Honor. I am sorry.
8 Q. Sure. Oh, no, all you can do is to explain to me honestly
9 and truthfully what your answers to the various questions are.
10 So I appreciate your participation.
11 A. Thank you.
12 (Juror absent)
13 THE COURT: 146.
14 (Juror present)
15 BY THE COURT:
16 Q. Good morning, Juror 146.
17 A. Hello.
18 Q. It's good to see you.
19 Let me ask you some preliminary questions. Since you
20 were here last has anything changed concerning your ability to
21 serve as a juror in this case or has anything occurred to you
22 that may affect your ability to be a fair and impartial juror
23 in this case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. It appears that the date that the final jury will be chosen
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1 in this case now will be Monday, June 21st. So after today you
2 won't have to call back until June 18th.
3 Does that schedule pose any serious hardship for you?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
6 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
7 the case?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
10 anyone here at the courthouse or any of the other prospective
11 jurors?
12 A. No.
13 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors
14 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Let me follow up on some of the questions. You mentioned
17 that your spouse, I believe, was in the Army in Vietnam?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. Is there anything about that that would prevent you from
20 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
21 A. No, I don't think so.
22 Q. There is nothing about that that raises any questions in
23 your mind about being fair and impartial in this case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You mentioned that your husband was sued in two malpractice
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1 cases. Can you tell me what happened in those lawsuits?
2 A. He was found not guilty in both of them.
3 Q. Could you speak into the microphone.
4 A. He was found not guilty in both of them. One was when he
5 first started in practice.
6 Q. I am sorry --
7 A. The first lawsuit was when he first started in practice,
8 and the second one I believe was settled before he got to
9 court. He was not found guilty in either one of them.
10 Q. Okay.
11 Is there anything about those experiences or about
12 your reactions to the court process or any of the participants
13 in the process that would prevent you from being a fair and
14 impartial juror in this case?
15 A. I don't think so, no.
16 Q. You mentioned that some of your husband's distant family or
17 friends came from Israel years ago?
18 A. His parents had actually traveled through Israel when they
19 left what was Russia, Poland at the time. They were married in
20 Israel and they came to the United States.
21 Q. I am sorry?
22 A. They were married in Israel, his parents, and came to the
23 United States. They were traveling through there on their way
24 from Russia and Poland.
25 Q. Is there anything about that that would prevent you from
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1 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
2 A. No, I don't believe so.
3 Q. You mentioned that you socialize with a friend who was born
4 in Egypt and moved to the United States and that was many years
5 ago.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is there anything about that that would prevent you from
8 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
9 A. No, I don't believe so.
10 Q. You have never served as a juror before?
11 A. I was selected but the case was resolved before I even got
12 to hear any of the opening testimony.
13 Q. What kind of a case was that?
14 A. It was a robbery case.
15 Q. And after you were selected nothing happened on the case?
16 A. No.
17 Q. So you never actually served?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Was that in federal or state court?
20 A. It was state court.
21 Q. How long ago was that?
22 A. Approximately 4-1/2, 5 years ago.
23 Q. Is there anything about that experience or any of the
24 participants or the process that would prevent you from being a
25 fair and impartial juror in this case?
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1 A. No. I was actually impressed with the court system at that
2 time. How it worked, yes.
3 Q. Okay.
4 You mentioned that you have read books about the
5 history of the Middle East and its people. Are there any ones
6 that stand out in your mind?
7 A. No, I read them quite a few years ago, just general
8 information about the history of the Middle East.
9 Q. Okay.
10 You told us that you heard about the defendants in
11 this case from newspaper articles. Can you tell me what it is
12 that you recall reading about the defendants?
13 A. I believe it was in the New York Times magazine article
14 that I read about the lawyer involved in the case. What I
15 remember about it was mainly it was a lot about her family.
16 Q. I am sorry?
17 A. There was a lot about her family life. I really don't
18 remember too much about it. It was a while ago.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. That is about all.
21 Q. Let me ask you another question. You also said that you
22 had heard of Sheikh Abdel Rahman. Tell me what you heard or
23 read about him.
24 A. Well, I know he was involved in the original bombing of the
25 world trade towers. I know the case was resolved.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 A. I don't know any specific details about that case.
3 Q. Okay.
4 Now, with respect to the publicity that you have seen,
5 either about Sheikh Rahman or the defendants in this case, if
6 you were chosen as a juror in this case you would be required
7 to follow some very simple instructions, namely, you would have
8 to decide this case based upon the evidence or lack of evidence
9 in this case and not on the basis of anything you may have
10 seen, heard or read before. You have to ask yourself whether
11 the charges in this case have been proven beyond a reasonable
12 doubt at trial based upon the evidence or lack of evidence
13 received in court because that is what fairness and justice
14 requires that you do. That is the way in which the system
15 works. It doesn't work on publicity or other things that may
16 be out there or anything other than the evidence that is here
17 in court.
18 So is there anything that you have seen, heard or read
19 that would prevent you from doing that, from being a fair and
20 impartial juror and deciding the case based solely on the
21 evidence or lack of evidence?
22 A. No, I think I could do that. I believe I could do that if
23 I was asked to.
24 Q. And would you do that?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. You also mentioned that you had a previous stockbroker who
2 died in 9/11, although you only met him once, and this case has
3 nothing to do with 9/11. The charges in this case don't
4 concern 9/11 and none of the defendants in this case are
5 charged with having anything to do with 9/11. So this case
6 doesn't involve 9/11.
7 Is there anything about your previous stockbroker
8 being killed in the World Trade Center that would prevent you
9 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You have told us about the one story that you read about
12 one of the defendants, and I have gone over that with you. I
13 also asked you whether you had discussed the case with anyone
14 and you said yes, and you heard others discussing it on the
15 radio.
16 Can you tell me what you heard?
17 A. I believe I was listening to WABC --
18 Q. WABC?
19 A. Yes. And I can't remember the gentleman's name. I don't
20 listen to him that often, he was a lawyer also who said that he
21 was friendly with the defendant and something about her trial.
22 That is all you I remember him talking about. It was Ron Kuby,
23 I believe, who had mentioned it on the radio.
24 Q. Okay.
25 Is there anything about that, what you heard on the
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1 radio, that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
2 juror in this case, listening to the evidence or lack of
3 evidence?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You responded about how you heard this on the radio. I
6 wasn't sure if you were also trying to tell me that you
7 recalled discussing this case with other people.
8 A. I don't believe I ever have, no.
9 Q. Okay.
10 It's likely that there will be ongoing media attention
11 to this case and so I will instruct the jurors that they are
12 not to look at or listen to or read anything to do in
13 connection with the case. If they should see something in the
14 newspapers, they should just turn away because what happens in
15 court when the jury is here listening to the evidence is what
16 counts for the jurors, and so they will have the best
17 opportunity to hear and listen to all of the evidence and so
18 they shouldn't look at or listen to anything else to do with
19 the case.
20 Will you follow that instruction?
21 A. Certainly.
22 Q. And can you do that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You had answered "yes" to a question that asked would
25 following the court's directive pose any difficulty for you,
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1 but it was in a line of questions and all of the answers were
2 yes, so I thought it might be a mistake.
3 A. It was a mistake and I apologize.
4 Q. No, no, I just wanted to make sure I understand what you
5 were saying.
6 If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would
7 be required to decide this case based solely on the evidence or
8 the lack of evidence and in accordance with my instructions on
9 the law.
10 Will do you that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. As you can tell from all of my questions the fundamental
13 issue is whether there is anything in your personal history or
14 life experience, whether I have asked you about it specifically
15 or not, that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
16 juror, so let me ask you one final time whether there is
17 anything, whether I have asked you about it specifically or
18 not, that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
19 juror in this case?
20 A. No. I don't believe there is anything.
21 Q. Okay. Thank you.
22 Could you step out for a moment?
23 (Juror absent)
24 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I did did not notice this on
25 my first reading of the questionnaire but at question 86 the
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1 juror had used the words "in general" when asked if she had any
2 bias or feelings about people from the Middle East.
3 THE COURT: I will follow up on that.
4 MR. TIGAR: Next, from doing the arithmetic about her
5 husband's parents' marriage in Israel, and having come down she
6 says from either Poland or Russia, depending on the geography,
7 were husband's parents Holocaust survivors?
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 MR. TIGAR: And where was her husband born? He has
10 been a doctor for about 30 years. I am sorry, it says
11 Brooklyn. I am reminded, your Honor, that I didn't read
12 carefully.
13 Finally, she had read the New York Times magazine
14 article and she says that there was a lot about her family
15 life, referring to Lynne Stewart. I would ask your Honor to
16 ask what does the juror remember reading about Ms. Stewart's
17 family life.
18 Your Honor is smiling but the reason for that is the
19 picture featured prominently Ms. Stewart seated next to her
20 husband, who is an African-American, and --
21 THE COURT: I will think about that. It strikes me
22 that she has already said she recalls about the family and
23 there is nothing about the article that would prevent her from
24 being fair and impartial and she has been very straightforward.
25 I will think about that.
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1 Okay.
2 MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Anything else?
4 Okay.
5 If these questions don't produce anything that suggest
6 a challenge I will ask the juror to return on June 18.
7 Call her in.
8 (Juror present)
9 BY THE COURT:
10 Q. Just a few follow-up questions.
11 In response to a question on the questionnaire whether
12 you had any negative feelings or opinions about persons of
13 Middle Eastern descent or people of the Islamic faith, you said
14 "no, in general."
15 What did you mean?
16 A. I am surprised you didn't ask me that before. I meant Bin
17 Laden. I can't imagine --
18 Q. I am sorry?
19 A. I was thinking in my own mind Bin Laden. I don't know how
20 you could at least think negative thoughts about Bin Laden and
21 he fit the question.
22 Q. All right.
23 I have told you that this case is not about 9/11 nor
24 none of the defendants are charged with anything to do with
25 9/11. There may be evidence in the case which arises that does
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1 concern Bin Laden. If any such evidence arose what you would
2 have to do is to ask yourself in the same way as with any other
3 evidence, you would have to ask yourself what is the evidence,
4 or lack of evidence, and based upon the evidence or lack of
5 evidence are the charges in the indictment proven beyond a
6 reasonable doubt? And could you do that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Would the fact that there might be evidence about Bin Laden
9 prevent you from doing that?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You mentioned, and I certainly don't mean to pry, that your
12 husband's parents came from abroad many years ago. Were your
13 husband's parents Holocaust survivors?
14 A. No. They left before.
15 Q. I am sorry?
16 A. They left way before.
17 Q. Okay. You mentioned that you had read the one New York
18 Times article about the one lawyer's family -- well, about the
19 one lawyer and one thing you mentioned about that was you
20 remember about the family. Do you recall anything specific
21 about the family from the article?
22 A. Actually, no, not really. I just remember a picture of the
23 apartment. I read the article a long time ago and I only
24 partially read it. I didn't read it in detail but, no, I don't
25 remember details at all.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 Now, is there anything about that article that would
3 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. All right.
6 A. I have very little memory of it.
7 Q. I am sorry?
8 A. I have very little memory of the article itself.
9 Q. You have --
10 A. I have very little memory of the article itself.
11 Q. Okay.
12 And of course you will follow my continuing
13 instructions not to look at or listen to or read anything to do
14 with the case and certainly not go back and look at anything
15 just because I mentioned or talked to you about it, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay.
18 Please, I am going to ask you to come back on June
19 18th. Actually I am going to ask you to call in on June 18th
20 and Mr. Fletcher will give you a slip of paper just to give you
21 the details.
22 Please remember to follow my continuing instructions.
23 Please don't talk about the case at all with anyone. Remember
24 not to look at, listen to or read anything to do with the case.
25 Please remember to keep an open mind until you heard all of the
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1 evidence, I have instructed you on the law and you have gone to
2 the jury room to begin your deliberations if you are a juror
3 chosen for the case. Fairness and justice to the parties
4 requires that you do that.
5 All right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 (Juror absent)
9 THE CLERK: 149.
10 THE COURT: I should say, and it was clear from the
11 record, but there were no further questions and no challenges.
12 MR. RUHNKE: That is right, your Honor.
13 (Juror present)
14 BY THE COURT:
15 Q. Please have a seat.
16 Good morning, juror 149. It's good to see you.
17 Since you were here last has anything changed
18 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
19 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
20 fair and impartial juror in this case?
21 A. I think two things. One, I would find it incredibly
22 difficult not to discuss it. I am sure --
23 Q. Please go a little slower and speak into the microphone
24 because otherwise I can't understand.
25 A. Okay.
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1 It will be incredibly difficult for me not to discuss
2 this when I get home. I am sure every evening I will be
3 tempted to discuss it with my husband. That is one thing I
4 thought about.
5 And the second is that I work with middle school
6 children, adolescent children who are at risk, and perhaps a
7 year out of their lives is a bit much for me to deal with. I
8 have a summer program that is starting this year.
9 Q. Well, first of all, the difficulty about not talking about
10 the case is a difficulty which every potential juror has. And
11 it's simply a requirement of assuring a fair and just
12 determination for the parties.
13 A. I realize the reasoning but I can tell you I will go home
14 and discuss it, and that is the truth.
15 Q. Well, you know, you are telling me in advance that I will
16 give you an order which is binding as a matter of law, and you
17 will simply ignore it?
18 A. I will find it difficult.
19 Q. People find many things in their lives difficult. The
20 question is will you abide by the order if you were chosen as a
21 juror in this case not to talk with about it?
22 A. Probably not.
23 (Continued on next page)
24
25
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. All right. You should really think about what the
3 consequences for you are about knowingly and willfully simply
4 disobeying court orders. You should think about that.
5 A. Yes, I know.
6 Q. And you should think about that as you contemplate the
7 responsibilities of citizenship, including the importance that
8 you would place on having a fair and impartial juror if you
9 were involved in a case in any way. So while you think about
10 that, could you step out?
11 (Juror absent)
12 THE COURT: I'll excuse the juror.
13 MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: The government agrees?
15 MR. DEMBER: Yes, your Honor.
16 THE COURT: All right. Let's bring in 149.
17 (Juror present)
18 BY THE COURT:
19 Q. All right. Juror 149, I will excuse you. All of your
20 paperwork will be taken care of by the mail and sent to you,
21 and you can now go home.
22 A. Okay.
23 (Juror absent)
24 THE COURT: 153.
25 U.S. MARSHAL: 153.
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1 (Juror present)
2 BY THE COURT:
3 Q. Good morning, Juror 153.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. It's good to see you.
6 A. Thank you.
7 Q. Juror 153, since you were here last, has anything changed
8 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
9 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
10 fair and impartial juror in this case?
11 A. You mean since I filled out the questionnaire?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. No.
14 Q. And it now appears that the date that the final jury will
15 be chosen in this case will be Monday, June the 21st. So you
16 wouldn't have to call back until June the 18th. Does that
17 present any serious hardship for you?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about
20 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
21 the case?
22 A. I didn't spoke about the case, but because of my line of
23 work, I had to explain to my customer that I may not be in for
24 awhile because I'm involved, whatever. But I didn't speak
25 about the case.
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1 Q. Okay. Did you just tell them it's a long trial?
2 A. Yes, I did. I told them that a few trial -- I didn't say
3 it was one trial, and it would be between four and six months,
4 it depends on what trial I would be in.
5 Q. Okay, fine. And has anyone spoken to you about the case
6 or -- and that includes any conversations here at the
7 courthouse or with other prospective jurors?
8 A. I don't think -- no, I don't think so.
9 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
10 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
11 A. We didn't even say a single word.
12 Q. Okay. Mention that you would not be paid while you were on
13 jury duty, but that it would not be an economic hardship for
14 you?
15 A. Not hundred percent, I mean, I'm a working person, I mean,
16 I have to pay my bills. But I think I will be able to do it.
17 But not -- I mean, it's a little struggle in there.
18 Q. But it's not going to be --
19 A. I mean, no, it's not which will real, real cause me
20 bankruptcy or thing like that, no.
21 Q. Okay. And you know -- you're a barber?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And we don't work on here on Fridays or Saturdays and we
24 break at about 4:30. So if you wanted, in terms of scheduling
25 your own appointments for your regular customers or so, I just
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1 point that out to you. And as I explained to you earlier also,
2 you'll be paid $40 a day, and then $50 a day, depending on how
3 long the case goes, as additional income for you. I just point
4 that out for. You?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. You told us that you served on one jury case about four
7 years ago. How long did that last?
8 A. One week.
9 Q. Okay. And was that in state or federal court?
10 A. Was over here someplace. I don't know where it was, but it
11 was in this area.
12 Q. Okay. And that was a civil case. Do you --
13 A. It was something about -- I think it was a civil case. It
14 was something about -- she thought that she was discriminated.
15 Q. Okay. And that case was -- don't tell us what the verdict
16 was, but you and the other jurors reached a verdict in that
17 case?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And is there anything about that experience or your
20 experience with the Court or the -- any of the parties or the
21 lawyers or the process that would prevent you from being a fair
22 and impartial juror in this case?
23 A. No.
24 Q. There were a few questions on the one page that you
25 skipped, you probably didn't see the page.
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1 A. Oh, could be. I know one or two, I did not understand the
2 word so I didn't want to make a mistake, so I didn't answer it.
3 Q. Okay. I'm going to go over the questions with you where
4 you did not answer. You mentioned that you rely on television
5 to get any news. Is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you watch any particular television news programs?
8 A. Yes, I think it's Fox, Fair Balance, I think they call it.
9 Q. Do you use a computer?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And other than for minor traffic violations and your jury
12 service, have you ever been in court before such as a witness
13 or a plaintiff or a defendant?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Or a victim? No?
16 A. No.
17 Q. There were a series of questions about your experience with
18 various aspects of the criminal justice system. You were asked
19 have you ever been the victim of a serious crime.
20 A. No.
21 Q. And I should ask these questions about both yourself and,
22 to your knowledge, any family members or close personal
23 friends. Anyone a victim?
24 A. No.
25 Q. No. Have you or any member of your family or close
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1 personal friend ever brought criminal charges against someone?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Have you or a member of your family or a close personal
4 friend ever sued someone? Brought a lawsuit against anyone?
5 A. Just for a car accident.
6 Q. Okay. Was that you or --
7 A. My wife.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. But the car was mine. But the accident was my wife was
10 involved.
11 Q. And --
12 A. Small claim court, it was.
13 Q. And what happened with that lawsuit?
14 A. We won.
15 Q. Was it settled or did it go to --
16 A. No, it went to small court, small claim court.
17 Q. Okay. Is there anything about that experience with the
18 process or any of the participants that would prevent you from
19 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
20 A. No, Sir.
21 Q. Did you do that yourself or did you get a lawyer to do
22 that?
23 A. No, I went myself.
24 Q. Have you or your -- anyone in your family or close personal
25 friend ever been sued by someone?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. There -- you may hear testimony in this case from expert
3 witnesses. Do you have any feelings about expert witnesses
4 that would prevent you from reaching a fair and impartial
5 verdict in this case based solely on the evidence presented
6 here in court?
7 A. I'm sorry, but what do you mean by expert witness?
8 Q. That is a good question. An expert witness is a witness
9 who is permitted to testify about matters based upon the
10 training, education, experience of the witness. And he or she
11 is permitted to testify in order to assist the jurors in
12 reaching a conclusion about the evidence in the case. The
13 witness is permitted to testify because they have certain
14 special expertise, special knowledge or training that can be of
15 assistance to the -- to the jury. So, for example, in some
16 cases there are people who are expert in chemistry or various
17 forms of science or lots of other fields of specialized
18 expertise. And those witnesses are allowed to testify and the
19 jurors have to listen to the testimony and assess that
20 testimony in the same way as they would the testimony of other
21 witnesses to determine whether they're giving credible,
22 believable testimony or not; and you can take into account the
23 regular ways in which you assess whether the person is telling
24 you the truth. And you can also consider the person's
25 expertise and any reasons that the person is testifying in
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1 determining how much, if any, of that testimony to accept.
2 So that's what an expert is.
3 A. Okay. In the chemistry, things like that, I do believe it.
4 But I don't believe psychiatry. If it's somebody -- my
5 personal thing. I don't think anybody can read in somebody
6 else mind.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. But as far as chemistry, things like that, yes, I do
9 believe.
10 Q. If you were chosen as a witness -- if you were chosen as a
11 juror, what you'd have to do is to listen to all of the
12 witnesses and determine whether you find that they're credible
13 or not credible, based upon an analysis of all of the testimony
14 of the witness. And you wouldn't be able to simply say, Well,
15 as a matter of principal, I don't accept testimony from such a
16 witness. You have to listen to the testimony of each witness
17 and assess the credibility of that witness. And then you
18 discuss it with all of your fellow jurors after listening to
19 all of the testimony of that witness.
20 Can you do that?
21 A. I believe so.
22 Q. Okay. Will you do that?
23 A. Definitely, if I am going to be chosen.
24 Q. Okay. One of the defendants is a lawyer. Do you have any
25 personal views about lawyers that would prevent you from
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1 reaching a fair and impartial verdict in this case based solely
2 upon the evidence presented here in court?
3 A. Can you explain a little bit by this way -- I know is a
4 lawyer, why should they be treated different than another
5 person? I don't understand.
6 Q. You're absolutely right. I was just trying to make sure
7 that there was nothing about the fact that one defendant was a
8 lawyer that would cause you to treat that person any
9 differently from any other person.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. Any other person.
12 A. Okay, yeah. The only thing, Sir, I feel if a lawyer breaks
13 the law, which she is a part of the law or he is a part of the
14 law -- but with the lawyer, well, I think she's guilty one and
15 a half because she knows -- you know, if I break the law, which
16 I don't even know, that's -- it's a little stupidity on my
17 part. But the lawyers, which is part of the law, which knows
18 everything, I think he should be more careful to break the law
19 than me or somebody else.
20 I don't know if that answers your question, Sir.
21 Q. Well, you started off by saying that, no, you don't see any
22 reason that any person should be treated differently just
23 because they're a lawyer.
24 A. No, for some crime, no -- I don't know. I go over it
25 again. I mean, I feel if you know the law, I mean, somebody --
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1 sometime you can break the law unwillingly or whatever, but
2 lawyers, which knows all the law and all the point, then he's
3 willingly to break the law, maybe you have to, you know, take
4 that into account, too.
5 Q. Okay. If you were chosen as a juror, you would have to ask
6 yourself whether with respect to each of the defendants,
7 considering the evidence against each of the defendants
8 separately, whether the government had proven the charges in
9 the indictment against that defendant beyond a reasonable doubt
10 based solely on the evidence or the lack of evidence. So you
11 would have to ask yourself with respect to each of the
12 defendants, including the defendant who's a lawyer, whether the
13 charges against that lawyer and the other defendants, looked at
14 individually, whether the government has proven those charges
15 beyond a reasonable doubt.
16 Now, you -- and you'd have to give a fair and
17 impartial consideration to each of those defendants and
18 consider the evidence or lack of evidence against each of the
19 defendants. So that's what I'm trying to find out, whether you
20 would do that for each of the defendants, including the
21 defendant who's a lawyer.
22 A. Well, I don't think just because a lawyer automatic that
23 she's guilty. Definitely you have to find -- have to look and
24 prove, whatever, demonstrate it. I didn't mean just because
25 it's a lawyer, automatically she can be guilty or he can be
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1 guilty. I mean, definitely have to see the proof, whatever the
2 government brings in.
3 Q. Is there -- would you be able to be a fair and impartial
4 juror in a case where one of the defendants is a lawyer?
5 A. I have nothing against lawyers. I have never had anything
6 to do with the lawyers. I have customers are lawyers. I have
7 nothing against lawyers.
8 All I said, if some lawyers breaks the law -- I didn't
9 say she say or he is automatically guilty. But should find
10 guilty in the case, because it's a lawyer, maybe the punishment
11 be a little bit harsher than somebody else. That's what I was
12 trying to come out. I don't know if I made myself clear.
13 Q. Okay. Do you go into this case with any belief that the
14 defendant who is a lawyer is, or any of the other defendants,
15 is guilty of the charges in the indictment?
16 A. I only saw the lawyer once on television. And I was change
17 channel, and this came out, and they mention the lawyer, which
18 was this blind man, and now they said that she's accused. But
19 I was changing channel, I change it again. And I didn't know
20 much about -- I don't know much about the case with this people
21 they indicted. The only thing I know, this blind man, which
22 was part of the building that went -- bomb it. And that
23 they've been found guilty. That's what I know about the case.
24 Nothing else I know.
25 Q. Okay. But what I'm asking you is do you go into the case
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1 with any sort of belief that any of the defendants --
2 A. No, Sir.
3 Q. -- are guilty of any of the charges?
4 A. No, Sir. I don't know much about. So I cannot make a
5 judgment without knowing anything.
6 Q. Okay. One other thing that you mentioned in the course of
7 discussing this is that you said you were -- you had some views
8 with respect to the issue of punishment. One of the things
9 that I tell jurors is that the issue of punishment is for the
10 Court alone. That's not for the jurors, and no juror can take
11 that into account.
12 Will you follow that instruction?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All right. Is English your first language?
15 A. No. It's Italian.
16 Q. Can you tell us where your parents were born?
17 A. Italy.
18 Q. And when did your -- did your parents come here or?
19 A. Yes. First my father; and then I came; and my mother come
20 later.
21 Q. And about when was that?
22 A. My father came in, I think, '57. I come in '58. But I
23 don't remember when my mother -- my mother came like four or
24 five years later.
25 Q. Okay. Can you tell me where your wife was born?
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1 A. Italy.
2 Q. And when did she come here?
3 A. '69.
4 Q. Have you ever traveled outside the United States? Have you
5 ever gone outside the United States after you've come here?
6 A. Oh, yeah. I go every year, I go back to Italy.
7 Q. And have you or anyone you know ever worked in any capacity
8 anywhere in the Middle East, including but not limited to
9 Afghanistan, the Arab Emirates, Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Kuwait,
10 Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria and
11 Yemen?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You mentioned that you have seen Lynne Stewart on
14 television. Can you tell me what you recall seeing on
15 television about Lynne Stewart?
16 A. I just mentioned before, I got to repeat the same thing. I
17 just was change channel, and she come out, and the announcer
18 said that she was the lawyer for the blind man, and now she's
19 been accused of pass information to some people. But I changed
20 station, and I don't know what's happened after.
21 Q. All right. And similarly, you were asked whether you had
22 heard anything about Sheikh Abdel Rahman, and you said, Yes,
23 that he is a leader of a criminal organization.
24 A. That's what I heard from television, that he was the head
25 of some kind of organization, which they put the car bomb on
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1 the Twin Tower.
2 Q. Anything else that you recall?
3 A. No.
4 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would have
5 to listen to the evidence in the case and decide the case based
6 solely on the evidence or lack of evidence in the case. Will
7 you do that?
8 A. Definitely.
9 Q. Now, with respect to anything that you've seen or heard, I
10 can tell you that it's a matter of law that jurors have to put
11 aside anything that they've seen or heard. And what they have
12 to do is to ask whether the charges in the indictment are
13 proved beyond a reasonable doubt, based upon the evidence or
14 lack of evidence that's received here in court. They can't
15 consider anything that they saw, heard or read in the
16 newspapers or the TV. That's not evidence. It may or may not
17 be right. But the only thing the jurors can consider is what
18 they hear in court.
19 Do you understand that?
20 A. Yes, Sir.
21 Q. And is there anything that you've seen or heard or read
22 that would prevent you from deciding this case solely on the
23 evidence or lack of evidence received here in court?
24 A. No, Sir.
25 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, as I say, you
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1 would be required to decide the case based solely on the
2 evidence or lack of evidence and my instructions on the law.
3 Would you do that?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. As you can tell from all of my questions, the fundamental
6 issue is whether there's anything in your personal history or
7 life experience, whether I've asked you about it specifically
8 or not, that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
9 juror in this case, so let me ask you one final time whether
10 there's anything, whether I've asked you about it specifically
11 or not, that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
12 juror in this case.
13 A. I don't -- I cannot -- I mean, I cannot think anything
14 about. I don't know. I don't know what to say. Because I
15 don't think I have anything. I try to think about, but I
16 cannot come out -- I wish I could come out with something. But
17 I can't.
18 Q. I know it's a long trial. And you're a very conscientious
19 person, and you've answered all of my questions and you've
20 indicated to me that you've thought long and hard about this.
21 So let me ask you one final time whether there's anything,
22 whether I have asked you about it specifically or not, that
23 would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this
24 case.
25 A. I wish I could say yes, but I can't. No, I don't think
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1 there is anything.
2 Q. Will you be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
3 A. I would try my best, if I should be in it.
4 Q. Is there anything you know of what would prevent you from
5 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
6 A. No, Sir.
7 Q. Okay. Will you step out, please?
8 A. Thank you, Sir.
9 (Juror absent)
10 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, in addition to the language
11 issue in a case that involves a great many documents, we have
12 the following very specific concern: In discussing lawyers,
13 the juror began by saying, Why should a lawyer be treated
14 differently? And then, he said, But the lawyers should be more
15 careful; then he is willingly to break the law. That's what I
16 heard the juror say.
17 Now, every one of the counts here against Miss Stewart
18 charges a so-called specific intent offense in which the
19 question will be, depending on the language the Court chooses
20 to use, whether the government has proven that Miss Stewart
21 intentionally violated a known legal duty. And the term
22 "willfully" or terms such as willfully are going to be used.
23 So it appears that we have a juror who is more willing to
24 believe that a lawyer would know the law and therefore is
25 already halfway to believing that the lawyer intentionally
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1 violated a known legal duty by virtue of her status as a
2 lawyer. That's what the juror said, and that's the conclusion
3 that we draw. And while -- thus, the determination is, where's
4 the burden of proof here?
5 We respectfully suggest that there's at least a doubt
6 here that the juror is fair, and on that basis, we challenge
7 for cause.
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 MR. RUHNKE: We join, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: I'm sorry?
11 MR. RUHNKE: We join.
12 THE COURT: Government?
13 MS. BAKER: Your Honor very carefully followed up on
14 some of the juror's earlier responses to the questions about
15 lawyers, and in response to your later questions, he said that
16 a lawyer would not be automatically guilty, and my
17 recollection, my notes are that he specifically said that the
18 government would need to prove the lawyer's guilt, and that he
19 has nothing against lawyers. And then in a later statement he
20 said, in words or substance, if the lawyer is guilty. So the
21 government submits that he did, overall, indicate -- in fact,
22 he answered affirmatively to your question, would he be fair
23 and impartial to a lawyer defendant; and that his other answers
24 support that conclusion. And thus, there is not a basis for a
25 cause challenge.
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1 THE COURT: I agree. It's not a challenge for cause.
2 He is an extraordinarily conscientious, thoughtful person. I
3 followed up extensively with respect to all of his views about
4 this case and about lawyers, and it's clear to me that he has
5 searched his mind as to whether there is any basis to believe
6 that he will not listen to the evidence or lack of evidence and
7 my instructions on the law and decide the case fairly and
8 impartially based upon the evidence or lack of evidence and my
9 instructions on the law. And he answered all of those
10 questions. And I followed up at great length with him.
11 I have assessed his credibility and he is plainly a
12 person who would follow the laws scrupulously, listen to the
13 evidence or lack of evidence, hold the government to its burden
14 of proof, and would be a fair and impartial juror.
15 So it's not a challenge for cause. Let's bring back
16 the juror.
17 (Juror present)
18 BY THE COURT:
19 Q. Good afternoon, 153. I'm going to -- you're still involved
20 in the jury selection process, but you won't have to call in
21 again until June the 18th. And then you will receive
22 instructions on June the 18th, and Mr. Fletcher will give you a
23 slip of paper to tell you where to call.
24 It's very important that you continue to follow my
25 instructions. Please, don't look at or listen to anything to
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1 do with the case. If you should see something, just turn away.
2 Remember not to talk about the case or anything to do with it.
3 Remember, as I'll tell all of the jurors, please, keep an open
4 mind until you've heard all of the evidence, I've instructed
5 you on the law, and you've gone to the jury room to begin your
6 deliberations. Fairness and justice to the parties requires
7 that you do that. All right?
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. Thank you, Sir.
10 (Juror absent)
11 DEPUTY CLERK: 154.
12 THE COURT: Did someone need a break?
13 MS. BAKER: If we could have five minutes, your Honor,
14 I'd appreciate it.
15 THE COURT: Okay, we'll take five minutes.
16 (Continued on next page)
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1 THE COURT: Good afternoon all, please be seated.
2 Juror 303 is unavailable from June 1st to June 4th, is
3 available June 7th, faxed a cruise summary to the jury
4 administrator. Unless the parties have any desire to read the
5 cruise summary I will leave it with the jury administrator. So
6 I have noted on my list that juror 303 will not be available
7 until June 7th.
8 Now we have juror 154.
9 (Juror present)
10 BY THE COURT:
11 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 154.
12 A. Good afternoon.
13 Q. Let me ask you some preliminary questions.
14 Since you were here last has anything changed
15 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
16 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
17 fair and impartial juror in this case?
18 A. No.
19 Q. It now appears that the final jury will be chosen on
20 Monday, June 21st. So after today you won't have to call back
21 until June 18th. Does that present any serious hardship for
22 you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Sips you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
25 this case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
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1 the case?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
4 any conversations here at the courthouse or with any other
5 prospective jurors?
6 A. No.
7 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors
8 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You mentioned that you were retired from the New York City
11 Department of Corrections and when did you retire?
12 A. August of 2001 -- 2002, I am sorry.
13 Q. August 2002?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And is there anything about your prior employment that
16 would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this
17 case?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Now, one of the things that -- one of the instructions that
20 I give is that no witness is entitled to any greater or lesser
21 credibility simply because of their occupation and so no law
22 enforcement officer is entitled to any greater or lesser
23 credibility simply because they are a law enforcement officer.
24 You would have to assess their credibility in the same way as
25 you would the credibility of any other witness. Would you do
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1 that?
2 A. I could, yes.
3 Q. Okay.
4 And will you follow that instruction?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you mentioned in response to another question when I
7 asked it that when you filled out that question you said -- I
8 said would you be inclined to believe a witness more or less
9 solely because of that witness was a law enforcement officer
10 and you said yes. And you explained that almost all detainees
11 claim not guilty, which very few were really not guilty.
12 So tell me, would you follow my instruction that no
13 witness, including any law enforcement officer is entitled to
14 any greater or lesser credibility because of their occupation?
15 A. I would follow your instructions because with that question
16 meaning like I have experienced a lot, because I was a workgang
17 officer and basically every time they would come back they
18 would have been guilty, found guilty, so that is what I
19 witnessed from experience. But to follow orders, I have always
20 been able to follow -- I have always been good at that. I have
21 never had no problems following instructions.
22 Q. And would you follow all of my instructions on the law?
23 A. Yes, to the best that I could.
24 Q. All right.
25 And based upon everything in the questionnaire, and I
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1 will go over some other questions, but do you have any reason
2 to question or doubt that you would follow my instructions in
3 this case on the law?
4 A. I would try to the best of my ability to follow it.
5 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that you would not follow
6 my instructions?
7 A. No.
8 Q. So will you follow my instructions?
9 A. I would try to, you know.
10 Q. What I am trying to get at is I can't get into your mind
11 obviously, and if there is any reason that you doubt that you
12 could follow my instructions and decide this case based solely
13 upon the evidence or lack of evidence and my instructions on
14 the law, tell me.
15 Do you have any doubts in your mind?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay.
18 So with respect to this instruction, and, you know, it
19 is the case that sometimes witnesses from any occupation don't
20 get their testimony quite right for anyone of a number of
21 reasons. And I will explain instructions on credibility. It
22 can be based upon the fact that a witness may be mistaken. It
23 could be that a witness in some cases does not testify
24 truthfully. I am not suggesting that any witness would ever do
25 that, but what I am saying is that if you listen to any
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1 witness -- any witness -- law enforcement officer, any witness,
2 you would have to listen to the witness and assess that
3 witness' credibility without any preconception or presumption
4 or anything like that that any witness is entitled to any
5 greater or lesser credibility because of their occupation,
6 whether it be law enforcement officer or anything else.
7 Do you understand that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And will you follow that instruction?
10 A. Yes, I would.
11 Q. Do you have any question in your mind that you can follow
12 that instruction and that you will follow that instruction?
13 A. I would follow the instruction. I don't have anything in
14 my mind, you know. I will be able to follow your orders or
15 whatever to the best of my ability really.
16 Q. Okay.
17 Is there anything about the fact that you were
18 employed as a corrections officer that would prevent you from
19 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You mentioned that your spouse was disabled and can you
22 tell me what the nature of the disability was?
23 A. She was assaulted by a patient in Jacobi Hospital and that
24 was in December 21, 2001, and she has been out and I have been
25 taking care of her. She just got spinal surgery of the upper
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1 neck, and on March 16 of this year, and that is what I have
2 been doing lately. And she has just been out of commission.
3 Q. Is there anything about the care that you give to your wife
4 that would prevent you from serving as a juror in this case?
5 A. Not really because now she has been a little bit doing
6 everything on her own and, you know, just sometimes that I have
7 to take her to appointments.
8 Q. Okay.
9 How often do you have to do that?
10 A. Sometimes 3 times a week, but my son is off from school
11 now, so he helps a lot.
12 Q. Okay.
13 How about since the case is expected to go into the
14 fall, would you be able to make arrangements in the fall for
15 your wife?
16 A. With the case going on I would try to see if I can make
17 arrangements but that sometimes don't work sometimes.
18 Q. The case is expected to last about 4 to 6 months, begin in
19 June, and so it would continue into the fall, the early winter.
20 Is there anything about that that would -- in terms of your
21 care for your wife --
22 A. I honestly can't say. I can't say because I don't know,
23 you know, like my son's schedule from school and stuff like
24 that. I don't know. I honestly can't say.
25 Q. How often would you take your wife to her appointments?
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1 A. Well, if anything I would just have to work around it.
2 Q. We don't sit on Fridays, and we don't sit after 4:30.
3 A. So I would try to work around it then.
4 Q. Okay.
5 But you don't know -- do you believe that that is
6 possible, that you could make arrangements?
7 A. I could make arrangements, you know, but, like I said, I
8 honestly don't know how it's going to work out. It's not like
9 if -- like if it's at night or something or every Friday,
10 because sometimes some doctors are in or not, so my son,
11 whenever I could, he will try to take over.
12 Q. Could he do that in the fall? You also have several other
13 children, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Would they be able to help?
16 A. That is what I am calculating but now in another month, one
17 is leaving to Virginia for a job and one is in the Air Force,
18 and one is upstate, so, you know, I could, you know, try my
19 best.
20 Q. Well, as you sit here today with the knowledge of how long
21 the case is and what you have to do and your other family
22 members and taking care of your wife, right now is this
23 something that you can reasonably do without serious hardship?
24 A. The worst that she has to go to appointments is I would
25 have to send her in a taxi or something, you know, so I would
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1 have to get other arrangements, but --
2 Q. But you don't personally, as you see it now, see it as a
3 serious hardship for you?
4 A. The way I have seen things have been going, because
5 sometimes she will be able to do things, I think if anything if
6 I would lien towards it would be some hardship because I don't
7 know how it would go. Like sometimes she will wake up and she
8 can't get up and in pain, so it could happen, you know. That
9 is why I can't say, you know. I can't have an honest answer.
10 It could happen, but I would try to work around it.
11 Q. Okay.
12 You mentioned that your son -- you have a son who is
13 in the Air Force. Is there anything about that that would
14 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
15 A. No, with my son, no. He is in Washington State.
16 Q. Okay.
17 And is there anything about the nature of your wife's
18 disability or the cause of that disability that would prevent
19 you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You mentioned that you have a co-worker and a friend and a
22 family member who have gone overseas in Iraq or Afghanistan.
23 Can you tell me who that was? Just don't tell me the names but
24 describe their relationship to you and when they went.
25 A. My wife's grandfather's stepbrother, he was in recently in
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1 Iraq. And I have a lot of friends who are reservists,
2 co-workers from the job that have been in Iraq and Afghanistan.
3 Q. Okay.
4 Is there anything about that that would prevent you
5 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You mentioned that you have been a juror three times and am
8 I right that each of those cases were in state court?
9 A. Two of them were state court and one was in federal but I
10 got, how you call that -- disqualified from the federal.
11 Q. Why were you disqualified?
12 A. I really don't know.
13 Q. You didn't serve as a juror?
14 A. No. I meant that I was -- I went to the same thing that I
15 am doing now.
16 Q. And you weren't picked.
17 A. No. I wasn't a juror, no.
18 Q. Okay.
19 And you were twice a juror in state court?
20 A. Yes, civil cases, and they were both settled.
21 Q. Did they settle after you had begun to listen to any of the
22 evidence?
23 A. Both got settled before we went out, yes.
24 Q. Okay.
25 Is there anything about any of those experiences with
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1 the court process or the jury system that would prevent you
2 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You mentioned that someone in your family was the victim of
5 a serious crime. Were you referring to your wife? What were
6 you referring to there?
7 A. Really to my wife.
8 Q. Okay.
9 By the way, were any charges brought in connection
10 with that?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And anything about that experience that would prevent you
13 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You mentioned that people in your family have been employed
16 by or sought employment with a prosecutor's office or a law
17 enforcement agency. Again, don't tell me names, but just tell
18 me what their relationship was to you or who you were referring
19 to?
20 A. I had a brother-in-law and that is basically it. And a lot
21 of co-workers, friends.
22 Q. Co-workers from when you were in the corrections system?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The brother-in-law, what does your brother-in-law do?
25 A. He is retired now but he was in narcotics.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 Anything about any of those connections that would
3 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And you mentioned that you and close friends were in
6 corrections. Anything about that that would prevent you from
7 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Let me ask you following up again with respect to the fact
10 that you were a corrections officer and law enforcement
11 personnel may testify in the course of the trial, will you
12 follow my instruction that no witness -- no witness --
13 including any law enforcement officer, is entitled to any
14 greater or lesser credibility simply because of their
15 occupation?
16 A. No. I would follow your instruction.
17 Q. You said no.
18 A. Well --
19 Q. Will you follow my instructions?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And can you follow that instruction?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You mentioned that you were not very knowledgeable about
24 Islam. What you knew you mentioned you learned from a
25 co-worker. Can you tell me what it is that you in general
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1 learned from your co-worker?
2 A. Basically like part of our job was to serve like Muslim
3 work, like workers that had to go to their Muslim, how do you
4 call it, you know, like studies and stuff, and we had to give
5 them, you know, their break to go to their studies and certain
6 times that we had to give certain foods to them and preparing
7 their own foods for the regular Allah and every different party
8 in the jail system.
9 Q. And is there anything about any of your conversations with
10 your co-workers or your dealings with any people an at the
11 facility who were Muslim, is there anything about that that
12 would prevent from you being a fair and impartial juror in this
13 case?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices against any people of
16 Middle Eastern descent or any people of the Islamic faith?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You mentioned that you had heard about or read about the
19 defendants in this case from newspaper and TV. Can you tell me
20 what you recall hearing or reading?
21 A. Just about that there was a lawyer, you know, passing --
22 getting some information passed from an inmate.
23 Q. All right.
24 You also recall seeing or hearing something about
25 Sheikh Rahman. Can you tell me what you recall seeing or
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1 hearing about him?
2 A. Sometimes I would hear like in the news watching like
3 channel 7 news and I would just hear, but I can't remember
4 because it has been a little while and, you know, like I can't
5 say. I just remember what was happening because with us a lot
6 of times at our job they would instruct us to be careful
7 because things are going on in different areas and, you know,
8 like we don't want it to happen to us. So we just were being
9 precautious and stuff like that with what was going on.
10 Because usually what goes on in one jail it can happen in every
11 other jail, so it's just instructions that we had gotten from
12 our bosses to be careful especially with the incident in MCC
13 and it's just what we were instructed to be aware and careful.
14 (Continued on next page)
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Okay. What incident at the MCC were you referring to?
3 A. The incident where there was a correction officer that got
4 stabbed in the eye, a possible escape.
5 Q. Let me ask you, have you heard or -- what have you heard
6 or read about this case?
7 A. This case?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. Basically, of what I said before. About passing
10 information from detainee to lawyer.
11 Q. Okay. Is there anything about the charges in this case as
12 I've explained the case to you that leads you to believe that
13 you could not be a fair and impartial juror in the case?
14 A. No.
15 Q. If you were chosen as a juror, you would have to put aside
16 side anything that you have seen or heard or read in the
17 newspapers and decide the case based solely upon the evidence
18 or lack of evidence that's presented here in court. Could you
19 do that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you have any doubt whether you could do that?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you understand that if you were chosen as a juror in
24 this case, you would have to listen to the evidence in the case
25 and decide the case based solely upon the evidence or lack of
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1 evidence in the case and my instructions on the law? Do you
2 understand that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is there -- would you do that?
5 A. Yes, I would, yes.
6 Q. Do you have any questions about whether you could do that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. As you can tell from all of my questions, the fundamental
9 issue is whether there is anything in your personal history or
10 life experience that would prevent you from acting as a fair
11 and impartial juror in this case, so let me ask you one final
12 time whether there's anything, whether I've asked you about it
13 specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a fair
14 and impartial juror in this case?
15 A. No, I would -- I would be fair. I would, you know, follow
16 your instructions. That's what I would try, you know, the best
17 of my ability.
18 Q. You say that you would try to the best of your ability. Do
19 you have any questions in your mind about whether you would be
20 able to do that?
21 A. No, I don't have any questions.
22 Q. Okay. Can you step out for a moment?
23 (Juror absent)
24 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, our concern is that even
25 though he's retired he still does associate with people he was
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1 on the job with and talks about things. And he said that,
2 having heard that there was a case about messages between a
3 detainee and a lawyer, it was something that everybody talked
4 about because, as he said, usually what goes on in one jail,
5 goes on in every other jail. And he immediately skipped over
6 then and was talking about the MCC episode, which did involve a
7 Middle Eastern person, as I recall the facts, all in the same
8 paragraph or thought pattern.
9 In addition to that, your Honor, you did ask him
10 several times about law enforcement officers, but in this case,
11 there are going to be prison guards, correction officers, who
12 will be witnesses in the case. It is inevitable. And
13 therefore we would ask your Honor to explore those two areas.
14 First, what did they talk about? About detainees and
15 messages and so on? And what are his attitudes about it.
16 Second, your Honor, somebody with that many years
17 experience in corrections is almost bound to have heard about a
18 person named Lynne Stewart, particularly in connection with
19 such things as the Larry Davis case. Would your Honor ask him,
20 Has he heard, read, talked about the lawyer Lynne Stewart.
21 Your Honor knows the nature of her practice, and these seem
22 like reasonable areas to pursue.
23 THE COURT: All right. He was asked about,
24 specifically, about Lynne Stewart. But I'll raise it
25 separately with him, and I'll certainly raise the prison guards
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1 and the -- what's the precise nature of the question about
2 talking about detainees?
3 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, he said that he heard that
4 there was a case involving alleged passing of messages from a
5 detainee for a lawyer. It was discussed as a current security
6 issue at his facility.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor recalls he didn't retire until
9 August of 2002, after the indictment in this case was returned.
10 THE COURT: Okay. Anything else? All right.
11 (Juror present)
12 BY THE COURT:
13 Q. Hi. I have a few follow-up questions. I've asked you
14 about law enforcement personnel. I've told you that law
15 enforcement personnel might be witnesses. It also may be that
16 corrections officers or guards or security officers may be
17 witnesses at the trial. And their credibility has to be
18 assessed the same way as every other witness. You would have
19 to listen to their testimony in the same way as you would any
20 other witness, and you could not give their testimony any
21 greater or lesser credibility simply because they were involved
22 in corrections in one form or another. Do you understand that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And would you follow that instruction?
25 A. Yes, I would.
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1 Q. Okay. And you understand the importance of that? Every
2 witness has to be assessed based upon their credibility, here
3 on the stand, to determine whether they're being accurate or
4 not accurate in their testimony. Will you follow that
5 instruction?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Tell me, have you -- are you familiar at all or have you
8 heard or read about Lynne Stewart?
9 A. Yes, in the paper.
10 Q. Okay. And tell me what you've heard or read about Lynne
11 Stewart?
12 A. It was in the paper that she was, you know, like on charges
13 of receiving messages, you know, from a detainee.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. That they didn't have any outside contact.
16 Q. All right. Now, did you read or hear anything else about
17 her that you can recall?
18 A. Basically, it's that. That was it.
19 Q. Okay. Now, I went over this with you before, but I want to
20 make sure -- oh, let me just ask you another question in that
21 connection: You mention that you had conversations about
22 detainees passing messages as part of your work as a
23 corrections officer; is that right?
24 A. Uh.
25 Q. Go ahead?
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1 A. Basically, it wasn't -- because, like, our detainees is a
2 different type. They could talk and make calls outside and we
3 weren't instructed anything like that. You know, the only
4 thing is: Contraband. That's the only thing that we were, you
5 know, aware of. Concerning messages or whatever, it was
6 nothing -- you know, it wasn't like an inmate couldn't talk to
7 the public, only to his lawyer.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. The only thing that we got instructions were to, you know,
10 be careful, like there was an incident that happened in a
11 jail -- because I used to work up the block in the Tombs in
12 Manhattan, and from -- what is it, MMC or -- there was an
13 incident. And just be alert, because usually any uprisings
14 start one and go all over. So that's what we were told: To be
15 careful.
16 Q. All right. You don't recall any other discussions about --
17 or receiving any instructions about passing information?
18 A. No, not in my -- not in our, where we worked at.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. Because they all had privileges to talk, you know, on the
21 phone and stuff, and talk to their lawyers, family members and
22 everybody.
23 Q. All right. Now, you -- and I know I went over this with
24 you before, but let me do it again. You had heard something
25 about the lawyer and you heard something about the case, and
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1 you've told us what you had heard. It's very important for all
2 of the parties in this case to have jurors who will assure them
3 that they will decide this case based solely upon the evidence
4 or lack of evidence in this case, and my instructions on the
5 law. Despite any publicity, anything that's been in the
6 newspapers, which can always be incorrect, the case has to be
7 decided solely on the evidence or lack of evidence and my
8 instructions on the law, and will you put aside anything that
9 you have seen or heard or read in the newspapers or talked
10 about and listen to the evidence in this case or the lack of
11 evidence and decide this case based solely upon the evidence or
12 lack of evidence and my instructions on the law?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And can you do that?
15 A. Yes, I could.
16 Q. All right. Can you step out for a moment?
17 (Juror absent)
18 THE COURT: No further questions. And no challenges
19 for cause? I'll ask him to come back --
20 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may I have just a moment,
21 please, your Honor?
22 THE COURT: Oh, sure.
23 (Off the record)
24 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, we would challenge the juror
25 for cause. I listened to his -- the colloquy, and although the
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1 words were the right words, a higher intonation, particularly
2 with the, "Yes, I would" answer on evaluating the credibility
3 of prison guards, he hesitated, he looked around. It was
4 clearly something about which he had difficulty. And I know
5 it's hard to talk about candor and lack of candor, and these
6 are things for your Honor to decide, but here is a man who's
7 spent his entire working life guarding prisoners and who has
8 said that he's convinced that the detainees, most of whom are
9 presumed innocent, turn out not to be; who continues to
10 associate with people who are in that same profession. I think
11 that it is simply not proven that he would be able to put all
12 of that experience out of his mind.
13 MR. RUHNKE: We join the challenge.
14 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Baker?
15 MS. BAKER: If your Honor was prepared to rule -- I
16 just wanted to say your Honor observed the jurist's demeanor
17 himself. We would submit that his demeanor reflected he was
18 being careful and thinking about each question, and to the
19 extent that he was answering slowly, he spoke slowly
20 throughout. He did not answer any more slowly in response to
21 your Honor's repeated questions about whether he could follow
22 the instructions.
23 THE COURT: Yes. I listened to him very carefully,
24 and I assessed his credibility, I assessed his demeanor.
25 Counsel says correctly that the answers were, on their face,
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1 answers which do not support a challenge for cause. And the
2 issue is one of credibility.
3 Counsel questions his credibility, but I've listened
4 to him, I've observed his demeanor, I've gone over with him at
5 length all of his contacts, experiences, and he is a credible,
6 believable witness when he says that he will follow my
7 instructions, that it's important to him to follow orders, and
8 that he will get my instructions on the law, he's carefully
9 thought about the issues, and he will decide this case based
10 solely upon the evidence or lack of evidence and my
11 instructions on the law and that he will be a fair and
12 impartial witness. And I've listened to him very carefully,
13 and there is not a challenge for cause.
14 MR. TIGAR: To complete the record, your Honor, our
15 challenge was also an implied bias challenge. As your Honor
16 may recall, a closely divided Supreme Court in Dennis versus
17 Unites States did uphold the presence of government employees
18 on the contempt of congress case of Eugene Dennis, but as the
19 dissenters pointed out and the majority acknowledged, there's
20 certain professions within government service that would create
21 what is called implied bias.
22 I simply wanted to make that additional point.
23 THE COURT: Trust me, I have carefully considered the
24 issue of implied bias. I've carefully considered the three
25 classes of bias that the Court of Appeals has set out, and this
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1 is a person who is retired. There is nothing about his prior
2 employment that supports the challenge, and I've carefully
3 examined that he will have no actual bias.
4 I've also considered whether there's any possible
5 inferred bias as to which I should exercise any discretion in
6 this case, and that's why I so carefully listened to all of his
7 answers, and I believe that there is a juror who would be a
8 fair and impartial juror, and I have considered all of the
9 possible categories of bias.
10 I appreciate your bringing it to my attention. Bring
11 in the juror.
12 (Juror present)
13 BY THE COURT:
14 Q. Please have a seat. Juror Number 154, you're still in the
15 process of jury selection. I'll ask you to call back on June
16 the 18th, and Mr. Fletcher will give you a slip of paper to
17 point out to you the telephone number and all.
18 It's very important that you follow my continuing
19 instructions: Please don't talk about this case or anything to
20 do with it. Please, don't look at or listen to or read
21 anything about the case. Please, as I'll tell all of the
22 jurors who are selected, do not -- remember to keep an open
23 mind until you've heard all of the evidence, I've instructed
24 you on the law, and you've gone to the jury room to begin your
25 deliberations. Fairness and justice to the parties requires
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1 that you do that.
2 All right?
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. Okay.
5 (Juror absent)
6 DEPUTY CLERK: 156.
7 (Juror present)
8 BY THE COURT:
9 Q. Please have a seat.
10 A. Thank you.
11 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 156.
12 A. Good afternoon.
13 Q. It's nice to see you. Since you were here last, has
14 anything changed concerning your ability to serve as a juror in
15 this case or has anything occurred to you that may affect your
16 ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
17 A. No.
18 Q. It notice appears that the date that the final jury will be
19 chosen in this case will be Monday, June the 21st. So after
20 today, it's unlikely that you'll be called to come back before
21 June the 18th. Does that present any serious hardship for you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And, actually, it would be call in on June the 18th. Since
24 you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about the case or
25 have you looked at or listened to anything about the case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
3 any conversations here at the Court house or with any other
4 prospective jurors?
5 A. No.
6 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
7 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
8 A. The first day that I was here?
9 Q. Either the first day or today.
10 A. No, we were told not to discuss it.
11 Q. Very good. And you mentioned in response to the
12 questionnaire that your -- that you had a -- that you have a
13 niece who's in the Navy, and is she currently in the Navy?
14 A. Yes, she is.