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30 June 2004
Source: Digital file from Southern District Reporters Office; (212) 805-0300.
Note: Transcripts were not provided between 1 June and 21 June, 2004.
This is the transcript of Day 15 of the proceeding and Day 6 of the trial.
See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ssy-dt.htm
Lynne Stewart web site with case documents: http://www.lynnestewart.org/
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1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 ------------------------------x
3
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
4
4 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK)
5
5 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar,"
6 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART,
6 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY,
7
7 Defendants.
8
8 ------------------------------x
9
9
10 New York, N.Y.
10 June 30, 2004
11 9:30 a.m.
11
12 Before:
12
13 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL
13
14 District Judge
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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1 APPEARANCES
1
2 DAVID N. KELLEY
2 United States Attorney for the
3 Southern District of New York
3 ROBIN BAKER
4 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO
4 ANTHONY BARKOW
5 ANDREW DEMBER
5 Assistant United States Attorneys
6
6 KENNETH A. PAUL
7 BARRY M. FALLICK
7 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar
8
8 MICHAEL TIGAR
9 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE
9 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart
10
10 DAVID STERN
11 DAVID A. RUHNKE
11 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry
12
12
13
14
15
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 (Trial resumed)
2 (In open court; jury not present)
3 THE COURT: Good morning all, please be seated.
4 I will discuss the documents with you at the lunch
5 hour or begin to discuss documents with you at the lunch hour
6 in view -- I will discuss the documents with you at the lunch
7 hour in view of the time that we are starting. The immediate
8 question is the issue of the CIPA. The resolution appears to
9 me to be reasonably clear. I obviously can't direct the
10 parties to stipulate to something, but the objection to the
11 last question is withdrawn, so the witness can answer the last
12 question.
13 There is no waiver of any CIPA protection because I
14 don't hear that there is anything that goes beyond what is
15 already in the public record in terms of what I have already
16 done. And there is no objection to my giving an instruction,
17 but I think I would give the instruction in my final
18 instructions because there is no real, as I see it, issue at
19 this point to be instructed on.
20 There is an instruction in Judge Sand's treatise with
21 respect to wiretaps and that could be adapted to the
22 surveillance in this case. And unless something develops in
23 the course of the case to suggest that I should do something
24 differently or more immediately, it appears to me that that
25 would be sufficient.
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1 So at this point when the jury comes out and the
2 witness is on the stand I would say there was a question
3 pending, there was an objection, the objection is withdrawn,
4 the witness may answer the question.
5 MR. TIGAR: That certainly is acceptable to me, your
6 Honor. That is what I had agreed to do. I wish, however, to
7 make clear that if the witness has not seen the order
8 authorizing surveillance, if she hasn't seen it, then she is
9 being asked to talk about things about which she has no
10 personal knowledge. If government counsel continues to ask
11 questions about the content of this order and what it
12 authorizes and where things were going to be and all the rest
13 of it, then I do not regard myself as bound to accept evidence
14 that I believe to be inadmissible because it appears to me, and
15 it has appeared to me before, that this could be a device for
16 trying to keep off the stand witnesses who do have personal
17 knowledge, witnesses who were involved, as to which if they
18 took the stand I would be entitled to Jencks material and I
19 could cross examine.
20 So I agree to stand down. I stand by every word I
21 said. But I am not going to agree about the future.
22 THE COURT: I will listen --
23 MR. TIGAR: If that sounds more hostile than it needed
24 to be I apologize. I am sorry to be cantankerous.
25 THE COURT: I will listen to the government in a
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1 moment, but I would have thought that this is a subject as to
2 which there there really should be no issue because I wouldn't
3 expect many details from the witness, first; and, second, there
4 is no requirement that the details of all of this be spelled
5 out through this witness or through another witness as to whom
6 you say there might be Jencks material. Since this is a matter
7 of law on which I have already passed and, as you point out in
8 your letter, I adverted to it in voir dire and could give an
9 appropriate instruction at an appropriate time to the jury.
10 MR. TIGAR: I didn't wish to be misunderstood, your
11 Honor. Here is the problem: At some point the government is
12 going to try to authenticate the tapes or the results of that
13 surveillance. The content of particular conversations
14 allegedly overheard is a key issue in this case as is
15 illustrated by the opening statements by Mr. Morvillo and
16 myself. Therefore, I can't predict the future, but there will
17 certainly be a discussion about whether the machines that were
18 installed were capable of overhearing, where those microphones
19 were placed, exactly what was done, all at the end of
20 presenting our contention, which I think will have to be done
21 at the end, that the government's version of these
22 conversations is simply wildly inaccurate and prejudicial and
23 that a part of it has to do with the imperfections of the
24 process.
25 That is all I was saying. Some day there will be an
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1 authentication battle here. It won't be with this witness.
2 And at that time maybe that order will become relevant, maybe
3 it won't, but I am just saying I haven't desisted forever from
4 the right to ask for things that might become important to us
5 later on. That is all I was saying, your Honor. I agree with
6 what you are describing about this witness and I thought I said
7 that.
8 I don't see any reason to be marching up that road
9 with this witness because the further they march on direct, the
10 further I am entitled to go on cross.
11 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, as I said yesterday, it would
12 be the government's intention with appropriate witnesses to ask
13 whether there were court orders, the kind of surveillance
14 authorized by the court orders, for example, audio recording,
15 video recording, et cetera, all of which, as your Honor said a
16 few minutes ago, is publicly obvious from everything that has
17 happened in the case up to this point.
18 Separate and apart from those very narrow questions
19 about the court orders, obviously the government needs to offer
20 an appropriate amount of evidence to establish how the
21 surveillance was conducted in order to authenticate it or give
22 the jury a basis for giving it the weight that the government
23 feels it is entitled to because of its accuracy and
24 reliability. And so obviously through appropriate witnesses
25 the government will elicit what the government believes to be
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1 an appropriate quantity of information, and I understand that
2 Mr. Tigar has differing views and he may seek to go further on
3 cross, but we will need to elicit an appropriate amount of
4 information about technologically how the surveillance was
5 conducted. For example, just taking the telephone calls as an
6 example, describe what the equipment was that was used and how
7 it operated. And your Honor has reviewed the orders.
8 THE COURT: Yes, but there are two issues and they are
9 appropriately kept separate. One is a very narrow question as
10 to whether there was a court order authorizing audio and/or
11 visual surveillance, period. Because presumably this witness
12 or another witness wouldn't allow something to be done in the
13 absence of an order. And that is a question and, as I
14 understand it, the objection to that was withdrawn and that is
15 apparently the end of that line on that subject and there would
16 be an appropriate instruction with respect to surveillance in
17 the final instruction.
18 There is a separate issue, which in my mind is not
19 elicited with questions, the gist of which are whether the
20 specific kind of placement of microphones is something that was
21 court ordered in order for bootstrapping or anything like that,
22 that this is okay because the court told us place the
23 microphones here, place the cameras there. Those issues go to
24 the other issue about are these fair and accurate recordings,
25 did they accurately pick up what was there, and that is argued
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1 out irrespective of the fact that this was court ordered
2 surveillance. And that is what I understand the two issues are
3 and I believe that they are separate.
4 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, we absolutely agree. That was
5 the very point that I was trying to make. But I stood to make
6 it because Mr. Tigar's last remarks suggested to me that he
7 does not view those as two separate issues and that once we ask
8 the witnesses something about technologically how the
9 surveillance was conducted, that he was going to use that at
10 every opportunity to renew his request that the orders be
11 disclosed to him.
12 So your Honor has made my very point. But I just need
13 to take it one little step further, because the two points get
14 a little closer together, although we respectfully submit still
15 remain separate, with respect to the recording of the telephone
16 conversations, so I just want to make the court aware by
17 proffering a little piece of the testimony that is going to
18 come regarding the recording of the telephone calls.
19 THE COURT: From this witness?
20 MS. BAKER: No. And so if your Honor wants me to
21 wait, I will. But it relates to what Mr. Tigar was just
22 arguing.
23 THE COURT: Well, as long as you raised it we might as
24 well hear it so at least I can think about it.
25 MS. BAKER: For the recording of the telephone calls,
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1 as your Honor knows from papers we have already submitted, the
2 FBI used systems that once programmed to monitor a particular
3 telephone line recorded all calls on that telephone line. And
4 so the way I expect this testimony to come from the witnesses
5 about that is that upon receipt of a court order a person with
6 the right skills and systems access, and so on, programs the
7 system to monitor the telephone numbers specified in the court
8 order for the time period specified in the court order and then
9 the system does its automatic recording. And so, again, we
10 submit that still those are two separate issues and we have not
11 disclosed anything that would require the court order to be
12 declassified and disclosed, but I did want to proffer that
13 testimony to your Honor.
14 THE COURT: All right.
15 MR. TIGAR: I don't know how the prosecutors could
16 know what I intend to do about matters that have not yet
17 occurred, but I will let that pass. Whether or not the issues
18 are separate, I hope that they will be. Whether they are or
19 not and whether I do get the right to keep moving for what I
20 dearly would like to see -- that order -- is going to depend on
21 what doors get opened. After all, I do disagree a little bit
22 with your Honor because under CIPA only the United States can
23 object on grounds of classification under the statute. Now, to
24 me that doesn't just give them a right to object under CIPA
25 Section 6, but I would say it gives them an obligation.
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1 Now, if that is all there is I withdraw my objection.
2 I am entitled to take advantage of doors opened by my adversary
3 and so whether they are opened or not, I don't know. Other
4 than that I can't say anything.
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 So far I haven't heard any disagreement to the basic
7 structure that I set out, which is a reasonable way to proceed
8 with this witness and it should be a reasonable way of
9 proceeding when we get to the more technical witnesses on
10 recording. And it does seem to me that the real objection is
11 bootstrapping on the basis of court order rather than the
12 laying out here is what happened and here is why this was
13 reliable, authentic, et cetera.
14 MR. TIGAR: Well, I am sorry to get up, your Honor,
15 but I respectfully suggest there is more than that. We would
16 not object to an instruction at the end, look, the court has
17 determined this is legal. Its weight, if any, is for the jury.
18 That basically is what that would say. But what happens here
19 is a court order, court order, court order gets mentioned and
20 for many jurors this is the only place they have been in. They
21 think a court is a place where one side gets to talk and
22 another side gets to talk.
23 The FISA court is not a court. It doesn't have any of
24 the Article III characteristics. It was a compromise made by
25 Congress for foreign intelligence. We have three United States
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1 citizens on trial here, your Honor, and the continued
2 invocation of some idea of a court is, I think, tactically --
3 and I know what they are doing and I think it's wrong and I
4 suggest that what the Supreme Court said the other day may
5 cause us to count the days for some compromises like that with
6 Article III sufficient under the procedural hour as that
7 argument. But that, your Honor, is what lies at the bottom of
8 this. And I agreed to withdraw my objection but I am saying
9 that that I do think is also an issue that is going to come up
10 and if it does, then I will argue to you.
11 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, first of all, the FISA court
12 is comprised of Article III judges and, second of all, whatever
13 criticisms they might have of the FISA court your Honor, an
14 Article III judge, has refused the FISA court determinations
15 and pronounced them legally appropriate for purposes of this
16 case and the government respectfully submits that therefore
17 it's appropriate for the government when necessary to convey
18 what was done and why. It's not going to happen often. It's
19 not something we seek to elicit from every witness. It's being
20 elicited from this witness because she was involved to a degree
21 in the setting up of the technology for the conduct of the
22 surveillance of the prison visits.
23 Similarly, the witnesses regarding the recording of
24 the telephone calls, it's relevant to their testimony for the
25 reason that I proffered to your Honor a few minutes ago. And
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1 so in those limited circumstances the government respectfully
2 submits that the limited questions and answers we have
3 discussed should be appropriate.
4 THE COURT: All right.
5 There is a limited question and answer. There is a
6 limited question as to which the objection is withdrawn and
7 that limited question the witness can answer. If the same
8 question is needed for another surveillance, simply was there a
9 court order or did you have a court order or whatever the
10 question was for the existence of the surveillance, I assume
11 that there would be no objection to that question and that
12 answer.
13 The problem is going further you have brought to my
14 attention one additional issue that may come up with another
15 witness and I listened to any argument on that. It does seem
16 to me that there is a reasonable limit on there was a court
17 order and we conducted surveillance without going further. And
18 the surveillance was subject to an appropriate instruction that
19 all parties agree upon in my final instructions, and that
20 really should be it.
21 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, of course we will proceed that
22 way. I am not asking for anything further at this time except
23 I would qualify that by saying I would ask that if Mr. Tigar
24 comes to believe at some point that the line of questioning has
25 gone too far, we would ask that in the presence of the jury
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1 that he simply object and not call for disclosure of the court
2 order in the presence of the jury as he did yesterday.
3 THE COURT: Yes, I agree with that. I paused on the
4 question whether I should tell the jury this morning that the
5 objection is withdrawn or whether I should tell the jury that
6 the objection is stricken. And the reason for that was knowing
7 that on reflection that the order was something that I had
8 previously passed on and that was classified, it raised at
9 least an issue in my mind, but I was prepared to say it's
10 sufficient that the objection be withdrawn. But I think that
11 that is a comment that shou be made before the jury. So,
12 please, an objection is sufficient.
13 MR. TIGAR: I will, of course, abide by that order.
14 A clarification. I thought I heard Mr. Baker say that
15 this witness that is now on the stand was responsible for
16 making the arrangements about the surveillance. I trust that
17 if that is so, that there will be no more questions that have
18 words like court order in them, she will just describe what she
19 did.
20 THE COURT: Mr. Baker.
21 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, I am looking at yesterday's
22 transcript just to make sure whether she answered that question
23 or not.
24 MS. BAKER: Assuming that the question of whether
25 there was a court order was answered, we believe that that
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1 would be sufficient. That is what we are trying to confirm.
2 MR. TIGAR: It's reproduced in Ms. Baker's letter.
3 MR. DEMBER: I am looking at the transcript.
4 MR. TIGAR: I would just check her letter.
5 THE COURT: It ends with the objection.
6 MS. BAKER: Right. The purpose of the last question,
7 which was:
8 "Q. And do you recall if the order indicated how the
9 monitoring could be done? Was it simply visual monitoring?"
10 The point of that question was we expect the witness
11 would say that what was authorized was video monitoring and
12 that would be the extent of the testimony that related to the
13 court order in any way and then the questions would move on to
14 what this witness knows about how that was actually set up or
15 carried out.
16 So we would ask that that last question be permitted
17 to be answered.
18 (Continued on next page)
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 THE COURT: Everything else would be without reference
2 to the court order.
3 MR. DEMBER: Correct, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: I will tell the witness that there was a
5 pending objection to a question. The objection is withdrawn.
6 The question can be replaced.
7 Take two minutes, talk to the witness, advise the
8 witness about the question and the answer.
9 MR. DEMBER: I will do that, your Honor.
10 (Recess)
11 THE COURT: I gave all of you a copy of the letter
12 that I plan to give to the juror, if that's satisfactory to
13 everyone.
14 MS. BAKER: It is to the government, your Honor.
15 MR. PAUL: Fine.
16 MR. RUHNKE: Yes.
17 THE COURT: I'll give that to Mr. Fletcher to give to
18 the juror after the lunch hour, and if the government could put
19 the witness back on the stand and we will call in the jury.
20 (Jury present)
21 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. It is
22 good to see you all.
23 As I have explained to you before, sometimes there is
24 a delay in bringing you out because what I try to do is I try
25 to deal with legal issues before you come out into the jury
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1 box, and I deal with them at breaks and at lunch hours and at
2 the end of the day so that I try very hard while you're in the
3 jury box that you're not interrupted with legal conferences and
4 the like. And sometimes that takes a little longer than I
5 would like, but it is no one's fault. And, obviously, you
6 shouldn't draw any inferences or hold it against anyone.
7 That's all my doing, dealing with questions of law. And so I
8 very much appreciate your indulgence if there seems to be a
9 delay in bringing you out at any time.
10 Now, the witness is on the stand.
11 Mr. Fletcher.
12 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Ms. Christenson, you're reminded
13 you're still under oath.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 THE COURT: Where we were yesterday, ladies and
16 gentlemen, there was a question, there was an objection, the
17 objection is withdrawn, and so the question can be reposed and
18 answered.
19 Mr. Barkow, you may proceed.
20 KARA CHRISTENSON, resumed.
21 DIRECT EXAMINATION (cont'd)
22 BY MR. DEMBER:
23 Q. Ms. Christenson, yesterday we left off discussing an order
24 and the authorization of the FBI to monitor visits between
25 Mr. Abdel Rahman and his attorneys. Do you recall that?
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46UMSAT2 Christenson - direct
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. And did you see that order?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. And in what way was the FBI authorized to monitor those
5 conversations between Mr. Rahman and his lawyers?
6 A. Through visual and audio means.
7 Q. Now, at any point in time did the FBI agents come to your
8 offices after you received that order?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And can you tell us, just from the way the Federal Medical
11 Center at Rochester is set up, where your office is located in
12 relationship to other buildings at the facility?
13 A. When you come in the front entrance building of the prison,
14 the building that we are located in is the first one to your
15 right of that front entrance building. It would be the first
16 building you would encounter when you come into the
17 institution. Our office is in the basement of that building.
18 Q. How many buildings are there at the institution?
19 A. Approximately seven.
20 Q. And are your offices where the legal department is located?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And at some point did the FBI come to your offices with
23 equipment?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And did they install that equipment?
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46UMSAT2 Christenson - direct
1 A. They did.
2 Q. Where did they install that equipment?
3 A. Some equipment was in my office, some equipment was in the
4 conference room across the hallway.
5 Q. Was that the associate warden's conference room that you
6 referred to yesterday?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Where is that in relationship to your office?
9 A. Right across the hall.
10 Q. Did you see the kind of equipment that the FBI placed in
11 your office?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And in general terms, what kind of equipment was that?
14 A. It appeared to be a TV screen, monitoring screen, and a
15 headset.
16 Q. And did you see those agents install any equipment in the
17 associate warden's conference room?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And could you tell what kind of equipment that was, in
20 general terms?
21 A. I can't tell you specifically what it was. It appeared to
22 be monitoring equipment.
23 Q. And did you see where they placed that monitoring equipment
24 in the conference room?
25 A. Yes.
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46UMSAT2 Christenson - direct
1 Q. Where did they place it?
2 A. In the ceiling.
3 Q. Now, did the FBI just come once to install such equipment,
4 or was it on more than one occasion?
5 A. It was on more than one occasion.
6 Q. And did they bring the same type of equipment each time?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And did they install that equipment in the same place as
9 you just described for us each time?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. By the way, do you have any recollection as to the first
12 time that they came, as to when that was?
13 A. I don't specifically.
14 Q. Once that first time that occurred where the equipment was
15 installed, were all of Mr. Abdel Rahman's visits with his
16 attorneys in the associate warden's conference room?
17 A. Yes, they were.
18 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness?
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 Q. Ms. Christenson, I have just placed before you, I believe
21 it is seven photographs which are marked for identification as
22 Government's Exhibits 360 through 366, is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. First of all, are those photographs?
25 A. Yes.
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46UMSAT2 Christenson - direct
1 Q. Do you recognize them?
2 A. I do.
3 Q. Do you know who took those photographs?
4 A. I do.
5 Q. Who took them?
6 A. I did.
7 Q. Do you remember when you took them?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. And when is that?
10 A. June 16.
11 Q. Of this year?
12 A. Of this year.
13 Q. And can you tell us in general terms what is depicted in
14 each of those photographs?
15 A. It is various views and angles of that associate warden's
16 conference room.
17 Q. Is that where the meetings between Mr. Abdel Rahman and his
18 attorneys occurred?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. That were monitored?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Are these photographs fair and accurate representations of
23 how the room itself appeared -- withdrawn. Let me ask one
24 other question.
25 When Mr. Abdel Rahman had visits with his attorneys,
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46UMSAT2 Christenson - direct
1 was there any furniture added to the associate warden's
2 conference room for purposes of those visits?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And what piece of furniture was that?
5 A. A round table was brought in.
6 THE COURT: I'm sorry.
7 Could you repeat your answer and bring the microphone
8 towards you and make sure to enunciate so that everyone can
9 hear you. Thank you.
10 A. A round table was brought into the conference room.
11 THE COURT: A round table?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, a round table.
13 Q. What was the purpose of bringing the round table into the
14 conference room?
15 A. I don't remember specifically what the purpose was.
16 Q. Do you remember where that round table was placed in the
17 conference room?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Where was it placed?
20 A. Right near one of the windows.
21 Q. How many windows are there leading into the conference
22 room?
23 A. One window by each entrance. There are two entrances into
24 that conference room.
25 Q. There are two windows?
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46UMSAT2 Christenson - direct
1 A. I believe so.
2 Q. And does that round table appear in any of the photographs
3 you have before you?
4 A. It does not.
5 Q. And other than the fact that the round table that you just
6 described for us does not appear in these photographs, do these
7 photographs fairly and accurately represent the way the room
8 appeared when the FBI installed the equipment in the room?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, the government offers
11 Exhibits 360 through 366 in evidence. They have been provided
12 to defense counsel previously.
13 MR. TIGAR: May I inquire, your Honor?
14 THE COURT: Yes.
15 MR. TIGAR: Thank you.
16 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. TIGAR:
18 Q. Ms. Christenson, a clarification. When the legal visits
19 took place, were the square or rectangular tables that are in
20 these pictures that you took moved out of the way?
21 A. Yes. They were pushed back.
22 Q. So that when we look at these pictures and if we want to
23 have a mental image of what it was like during the legal
24 visits, we would think of those tables being pushed over to one
25 side and that round table where you have told us it is, right?
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46UMSAT2 Christenson - direct
1 A. Correct.
2 MR. TIGAR: Thank you very much, your Honor. With
3 that understanding, we have no objection to the admission of
4 these photographs.
5 THE COURT: Government Exhibits 360 through 366
6 received in evidence.
7 (Government's Exhibits 360-366 received in evidence)
8 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, may we display Exhibit 360,
9 please?
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 MR. DEMBER: To everyone.
12 It does not appear to be on the big screen.
13 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, we may be having a technical
14 problem with the projector.
15 MR. DEMBER: I think it is sufficient, your Honor. I
16 think if the jury has it in front of them on their screens, we
17 can proceed.
18 THE COURT: All right.
19 Ladies and gentlemen, you will have to look at the
20 smaller screens for these photos.
21 BY MR. DEMBER:
22 Q. Ms. Christenson, let me first ask you, do you have that
23 exhibit in front of you on the screen?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. That appears to be a black and white version of the
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46UMSAT2 Christenson - direct
1 photograph, is that correct?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Are all the photographs which are Exhibits 360 to 366 in
4 color?
5 A. Yes, they are in color.
6 Q. Can you tell us what is depicted in this photograph?
7 A. It is the inside of the associate warden's conference room.
8 Q. And do you see in this particular photograph the location
9 where that round table was placed?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I am going to ask you, through the marvels of modern
12 technology, with your finger --
13 THE COURT: Hold on one moment. The picture is now up
14 on the large screen also.
15 MR. DEMBER: Thank you, your Honor.
16 Q. If you would touch the lower left-hand corner of the
17 monitor. Could you draw with your finger the location of where
18 that round table was, using a circle to represent the table?
19 Was it that big, actually?
20 A. Not that big.
21 Q. I think on the right-hand side of the screen there is a
22 word erase. Why don't you erase that. To the best of your
23 ability, as accurately as you can try to draw essentially to
24 scale if you can or as close to scale the table. Is that where
25 it was?
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46UMSAT2 Christenson - direct
1 A. Right about that area.
2 Q. You see there is two long tables depicted in the
3 photograph?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And were those tables moved or pushed to the side out of
6 the way?
7 A. Yes, they were.
8 Q. And would you tell us, to your best estimate, the closest
9 edge of the round table, how far was that from the ledge on the
10 window that we are looking at in the photograph, would you say?
11 A. About a foot, 18 inches, maybe.
12 Q. And by the way, there is the window, obviously, there in
13 the photograph and next to it the door, correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. If you look through the window, there appear to be offices
16 on the other side of the hallway, is that correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. And what's on the other side of that hallway, what offices?
19 A. The legal department offices.
20 Q. Now, just using this photograph for the moment, do you see
21 where -- withdrawn.
22 Is there shown in this photograph a location where you
23 saw the FBI agents installing equipment in the ceiling of the
24 conference room?
25 A. Draw a circle around the area?
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1 Q. Would you do that for us, please?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. DEMBER: Can we have displayed for the jury and
4 for everybody, actually, Exhibit 361, please.
5 Your Honor, may we display 361?
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 Q. By the way, Ms. Christenson, would you push that erase
8 button --
9 THE COURT: If anyone wanted to try to make a copy or
10 photo of where the circles were, we could look at that. If I
11 don't hear an objection --
12 MR. TIGAR: No, your Honor. I think we know the
13 technology can do it. I did have a question. The photographs
14 are in color, but they are being displayed in black and white.
15 Is that a technological problem?
16 MR. DEMBER: It appears to be, your Honor, yes.
17 Q. Could you push the erase button again so we could eliminate
18 those two circles.
19 Would you tell us, what is shown in this photograph?
20 A. It shows the associate warden's conference room from the
21 hallway looking in through the window.
22 Q. Was that the same window that was shown in the first
23 photograph?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. That's just a photograph taken from the hallway itself?
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46UMSAT2 Christenson - direct
1 A. Correct.
2 MR. DEMBER: Can we display Exhibit 362 for the jury,
3 please?
4 THE COURT: All right.
5 Q. Is that another version of the photograph taken from that
6 same window from the hallway?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 MR. DEMBER: May we display 363, your Honor?
9 THE COURT: Yes.
10 Q. Again, that's a photograph of the conference room, Ms.
11 Christenson?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. Now, the window that was shown in the first exhibit, 360,
14 which one of those two windows is shown in this photograph --
15 where is that window shown in this photograph?
16 A. It is the window farthest to the right. Do you want me to
17 point?
18 Q. Why don't you point to it, first of all.
19 A. Right there.
20 Q. And could you again, using blue ink, I guess, this time, to
21 the best of your ability, show us the location of where that
22 table was placed.
23 A. Right in this area.
24 Q. Could you show us again where you saw the equipment placed
25 in the ceiling of that room?
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1 A. Right in that area.
2 MR. DEMBER: Unless anyone wants to --
3 Q. Why don't you press the erase button there.
4 MR. DEMBER: May we display to the jury Exhibit 364,
5 your Honor?
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 Q. That's essentially another version of the same shot, is
8 that correct?
9 A. That's correct.
10 MR. DEMBER: May we display Exhibit 365 to the jury,
11 your Honor?
12 THE COURT: Yes.
13 Q. And what's depicted in this photograph?
14 A. The ceiling of that conference room.
15 Q. Is that the section of the ceiling that you were circling
16 in the other two photographs?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 MR. DEMBER: May we display Exhibit 366, your Honor?
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 Q. That's just a long shot of the room again?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. The full length?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. DEMBER: We can take the photograph down, please.
25 Your Honor, may I approach the witness again?
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46UMSAT2 Christenson - direct
1 THE COURT: Yes.
2 Q. Ms. Christenson, I've just handed up to you documents which
3 have been marked for identification as Government Exhibits 319
4 through 329.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Are you familiar with those documents?
7 A. Yes, I am.
8 Q. And how do you recognize those documents?
9 A. They were drafted for the warden's signature out of the
10 legal department.
11 Q. And are those documents kept in the normal course of your
12 business at the Bureau of Prisons?
13 A. Yes, they are.
14 Q. As part of your responsibility to maintain those records?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, the government offers
17 Exhibits 319 through 329 into evidence.
18 MR. TIGAR: May I have just a moment, your Honor, to
19 flip through these?
20 THE COURT: Sure.
21 MR. TIGAR: Thank you.
22 No objection.
23 THE COURT: Government Exhibits 319 through 329
24 received in evidence.
25 (Government's Exhibits 319-329 received in evidence)
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46UMSAT2 Christenson - direct
1 Q. Ms. Christenson, would you tell us what these documents
2 are?
3 A. They are the notification of the SAM to Mr. Abdel Rahman.
4 Q. And did you have any responsibility in terms of preparing
5 these documents?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what did you do with these documents?
8 A. I drafted them each time we received a copy of the
9 extension of the SAM.
10 Q. And where would you draft them from?
11 A. From my office.
12 Q. How would you know to draft them?
13 A. Pardon me?
14 Q. How would you know to draft them?
15 A. We would receive by fax a copy of the SAM extension from
16 our central office, typically.
17 Q. And where is that central office?
18 A. In Washington, D.C.
19 Q. Is that part of the Bureau of Prisons?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And when you drafted them what would you do with them once
22 you drafted them?
23 A. Pardon me?
24 Q. Withdrawn.
25 What would you do to draft them?
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46UMSAT2 Christenson - direct
1 A. I would pull up the file on my computer, insert the
2 appropriate information as far as the extension dates, and
3 route it to the warden for his signature or her signature.
4 Q. And these SAMs pertain to whom?
5 A. Mr. Abdel Rahman.
6 Q. And was Mr. Abdel Rahman advised of the SAMs?
7 A. Yes, he was.
8 Q. And do you know how he was advised of the SAMs?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. How was he advised of the SAMs?
11 A. They were read to him.
12 Q. Now, were they always read to him with a translator?
13 A. Not always.
14 Q. Was a translator used on occasion?
15 A. On occasion, yes.
16 Q. When it wasn't used with a translator, were they just read
17 to him in English?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. What would determine whether or not a translator was used?
20 A. It was based on the availability of the translator.
21 Q. Did the Federal Medical Center at Rochester have any
22 translators on staff?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you have any Arabic-speaking correction officer or
25 guards on staff?
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46UMSAT2 Christenson - direct
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you have any other members of your staff who spoke
3 Arabic?
4 A. One staff member who spoke very broken Arabic.
5 Q. Was that person fluent in Arabic?
6 A. Not at all.
7 Q. And did the facility have to rely upon outside persons to
8 help do the translations?
9 A. Yes, we did.
10 Q. Now, on occasion were the reading of the SAMs to Mr. Abdel
11 Rahman recorded in any fashion?
12 A. Yes, they were.
13 Q. How was that done?
14 A. Via a video recorder.
15 Q. Were they videotaped?
16 A. Yes, they were.
17 Q. Were they always videotaped?
18 A. Not always.
19 Q. Was there a requirement anywhere in the SAMs to videotape?
20 A. No.
21 Q. To your knowledge, were there any requirements in the
22 rules, regulations or law that required the facility to
23 videotape giving of the SAMs to Mr. Abdel Rahman?
24 A. Not to my knowledge.
25 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, may we display Exhibit 321
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46UMSAT2 Christenson - direct
1 for the jury?
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 Q. Ms. Christenson, do you have a copy of that in front of
4 you?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Is this a typical version of the SAMs that you would
7 prepare?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. And would you tell us the date on this particular version
10 of the SAMs?
11 A. It is dated April 7, 2000.
12 Q. And who is essentially issuing these SAMs in the video?
13 A. The warden of the facility, Constance Reese at the time.
14 Q. Would you turn to the back page, the last page.
15 MR. DEMBER: May we turn to the last page of the
16 document, please, which is the fourth page.
17 Q. Is there an indication on the final page of the document,
18 SAMs, as to whether or not this particular version was
19 translated for Mr. Abdel Rahman?
20 A. Yes, there is.
21 Q. And were they translated?
22 A. Yes, it was.
23 Q. Is this a typical version of the SAMs that were prepared
24 for him?
25 A. Yes, it is.
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46UMSAT2 Christenson - direct
1 Q. By you?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, may we display Exhibit 329
4 for the jury, please?
5 THE COURT: Yes.
6 Q. Do you have that in front of you, Ms. Christenson?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Would you tell us the date on that version of the Special
9 Administrative Measures?
10 A. This is dated April 6, 2001.
11 Q. And who were they issued by?
12 A. The warden.
13 Q. The warden?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was it Warden Reese also on that date?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. DEMBER: Can we display the last page of this
18 exhibit, please.
19 Q. Is there any indication on the last page as to whether or
20 not the Special Administrative Measures were translated for
21 Mr. Abdel Rahman on that day?
22 A. Yes, there is.
23 Q. And was it?
24 A. Yes, it was.
25 MR. DEMBER: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
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46UMSAT2 Christenson - direct
1 THE COURT: Yes.
2 Q. Ms. Christenson, I have placed before you an exhibit that
3 has been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 370.
4 Are you familiar with that exhibit?
5 A. Yes, I am.
6 Q. And how are you familiar with it?
7 A. It is a video recording of the reading of one of the SAM
8 extensions to Mr. Abdel Rahman. It is maintained in my office.
9 Q. Did you maintain the various videotapes that were made of
10 the SAMs being read to Abdel Rahman?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And is this a copy of one of those recordings?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. Who prepared the copy?
15 A. I did.
16 Q. And from your review of it, is it a fair and accurate
17 representation of the SAMs being given to Mr. Rahman on the
18 date, April 19, 2000?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor. The government offers into
21 evidence Exhibit 370.
22 MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Government Exhibit 370 received in
24 evidence.
25 (Government's Exhibit 370 received in evidence)
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46UMSAT2 Christenson - direct
1 Q. Ms. Christenson, I believe you told us that you have worked
2 at the Rochester facility for over 12 years, is that correct?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. And other than Mr. Abdel Rahman, has there ever been an
5 inmate at the Federal Medical Center at Rochester who was under
6 SAMs restrictions?
7 A. No, there was not.
8 Q. Is he the only one?
9 A. He is the only one.
10 MR. DEMBER: May I have a moment, your Honor?
11 THE COURT: Yes.
12 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, I have no further questions
13 at this time.
14 THE COURT: Mr. Tigar, you may examine.
15 MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor.
16 CROSS-EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. TIGAR:
18 Q. Ms. Christenson, what is your educational background?
19 A. I have an associate's degree in legal administrative work.
20 Q. And have you been a paralegal all your professional life?
21 A. I'm not a paralegal. I'm a legal instruments examiner.
22 Q. I'm sorry, a what?
23 A. A legal instruments examiner.
24 Q. Legal instruments examiner.
25 Would you tell me, please, what do you do as a legal
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1 instruments examiner there at the prison? Is it like a
2 paralegal, or what?
3 A. In some aspects. We do have paralegals in our office as
4 well. I assist in gathering documents, help prepare responses
5 to litigation, administrative tort claims, and FOIA requests by
6 inmates to the warden or our staff.
7 Q. Now, FOIA requests, that's the Freedom of Information Act,
8 right?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And can inmates write letters to the warden and ask that
11 certain records be produced to them?
12 A. That would not be a properly filed FOIA request. They
13 would have to send their FOIA requests to our central office in
14 Washington, D.C.
15 Q. And your central office is the Bureau of Prisons, right?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And during all the time we are talking about here, the head
18 of the Bureau of Prisons of was Kathleen Hawke or Kathleen
19 Hawke Sawyer, right?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Now, at your facility how many inmates do you have?
22 A. Approximately 800, 820.
23 Q. And are they housed in single cells or double cells?
24 A. There is various housing assignments.
25 Q. I want to ask you some questions to get an idea of the
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1 conditions, the way that Sheikh Abdul Rahman was living in your
2 facility, all right?
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. He arrived there at about what date, did you say?
5 A. It was January or February of 1998. I don't remember the
6 specific date.
7 Q. And do you get a lot of people in your facility who have
8 been transferred in there from other federal medical facilities
9 for various reasons?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And do you have the idea that your place has better medical
12 care for some kinds of medical and mental conditions than other
13 facilities?
14 A. Not at all.
15 Q. Now, some of the people in your facility are there because
16 they have what we would call physical medical problems, right?
17 A. Sure.
18 Q. And others are there because they have what you would call
19 mental medical problems, right?
20 A. Sure.
21 Q. And, in fact, over the years you have been there you have
22 had quite a number of, shall we say, high-profile, well-known
23 inmates, correct?
24 A. We have had some, yes.
25 Q. If I were to come to your facility -- we have never met,
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1 have we?
2 A. No, we have not.
3 Q. Not that I remember.
4 But if I come to your facility, you are in Rochester,
5 Minnesota, correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Is that south of Minneapolis?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. If I were a lawyer coming to visit, I would park my car and
10 I would go through to the administrative desk, correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And I would fill out one of those forms like we saw
13 yesterday, that's a standard form that everybody has to fill
14 out if they want to get into a federal prison, correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And that form, this is one very much like is used in every
17 federal prison you have ever known about, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In addition to that, if I'm a lawyer and I want to see
20 somebody, there was another little slip of paper that a lawyer
21 has to fill out, say, if I'm going on a legal visit, correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 (Continued on next page)
24
25
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46USSAT3 Christenson - cross
1 Q. Now, what is the purpose -- in your office, what is the
2 difference between a regular visit and a legal visit?
3 A. A regular visit would be with a family member or a friend
4 and a legal visit would be with an attorney or his designated
5 representative.
6 Q. Now, did Sheikh Abdel Rahman during the time you were there
7 have any visits from anybody other than lawyers and people that
8 were with them?
9 A. He had a visit from his family.
10 Q. Was that a contact visit?
11 A. I don't remember.
12 Q. When you say contact visit, in Bureau of Prisons' talk that
13 means that there is no glass separating the inmate from the
14 people, correct?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. Now, if I were the lawyer coming to visit, I wouldn't go
17 visit him in his cell, would I?
18 A. No, you would not.
19 Q. I would be in one of those rooms that we saw the pictures
20 of, correct?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Now, he was in a cell all by himself, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. About how big was that cell that he was in?
25 A. I don't know what the room dimensions were.
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46USSAT3 Christenson - cross
1 Q. Well, let's --
2 A. It was a fairly good size.
3 Q. Well, you have seen it, correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay.
6 And it had a bed in it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. A single bed?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did it have a shower? Or did he have to leave to take a
11 shower?
12 A. There was no shower in there.
13 Q. There is a toilet?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Is the toilet in a separate room or not?
16 A. It's all in the same room.
17 Q. And was there a table and chair?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, did you ever observe him in his daily prayers?
20 A. No.
21 Q. But there was a log book kept, was there not?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you said he is the only person there as to whom you
24 kept a log book?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Now, who decided, if you know, that a log book would be
2 kept as to him and not as to anybody else?
3 A. I don't know who made the decision.
4 Q. And what were your instructions about what you did with
5 this log book?
6 A. The instructions were that anybody that entered his cell
7 for whatever reason needed to sign in and state the reason that
8 they were there.
9 Q. And then after the log book was filled up you would keep
10 it, correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Were you given any instructions about how long you should
13 keep it or why?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Now, in this cell -- if you were going to go see him if you
16 were a guard, you would first go into something called a sally
17 port?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And that is an area that is separate from the hallway or
20 whatever, but not yet in the cell, correct?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. Now, before you went into the sally port, if you were a
23 guard just passing by, could you look directly into the cell?
24 A. Yes, I believe you could. Yes, you could.
25 Q. And once you were inside you could also look directly in,
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1 right?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. As an inmate, you knew he was there for a life sentence,
4 correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And in terms of contact with the outside world, he had a
7 right -- all inmates there have a right to send letters to
8 certain people that are approved, correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Now, did he have a Braille writer?
11 A. I am not certain if he did or if he did not.
12 Q. He had diabetes, didn't he?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you have read the log entries that show that because of
15 his diabetes he had problems with his extremities, correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. His fingers and toes.
18 A. Right.
19 Q. Do you know whether or not that was causing him difficulty
20 in trying to read Braille?
21 A. I don't know for certain if it was or if it wasn't.
22 Q. Now, all the time you were there, did you ever have
23 experience with him writing anything in Arabic?
24 A. Personally, no.
25 Q. Or in English?
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46USSAT3 Christenson - cross
1 A. Not personally.
2 Q. So you are not aware of any time when he actually wrote
3 anything, correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And we have already established he was blind, right?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. Now, when he was in his cell, did he wear the dark glasses
8 that were on the picture that you were shown, or did he not
9 wear the dark glasses?
10 A. I don't think he did.
11 Q. You don't ever remember seeing him with the dark glasses?
12 A. I don't remember seeing them.
13 Q. So he would sit in his cell and, now, could he go out of
14 his cell to get his meals?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Oh, then his meals would be brought to him, right?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Now, his meals would be brought to him by a guard, right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And did any of the guards who would bring him his meals
21 speak Arabic?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And so far as you observed his ability in English was very
24 limited, correct?
25 A. Broken English, correct.
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1 Q. And when doctors would come to see him, do you know whether
2 or not any of them spoke Arabic?
3 A. To my knowledge, none of them spoke Arabic.
4 Q. In fact, you have told us that you had, what, one person on
5 your staff who spoke some broken Arabic, right?
6 A. Very limited, yes.
7 Q. Now, with particular attention to that SAM that has been
8 received in evidence as Government Exhibit 321, I am going to
9 display that for you with the court's permission.
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor.
12 Q. Turn the lamp on and let it warm up, and I am going to show
13 you the last page.
14 Can you tell me please -- of course it starts at the
15 top where I have my finger and it says "refused to sign,"
16 right?
17 A. That is what it says.
18 Q. Now, did you witness this event, the reading of the SAM?
19 A. Personally I did not witness it.
20 Q. We can take a look though at some of the signatures, right?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Did you ever see Omar Abdel Rahman sign his name to
23 anything?
24 A. Personally I did not.
25 Q. Did you know whether being blind he would sign his name
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46USSAT3 Christenson - cross
1 like a sighted person would do?
2 A. I don't know if he would or not.
3 Q. So the first signature on here says "refused to sign" and
4 then there is this name on here. Do you recognize that?
5 A. I do recognize that signature.
6 Q. Who is that?
7 A. Her name is Mary Haughen. She would have been Mr. Abdel
8 Rahman's unit manager.
9 Q. And a unit manager is someone in the hierarchy of the guard
10 personnel, is that fair to say?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, I don't want to insult anybody's job, but they are the
13 ones in charge of the inmates on a day-to-day basis, right?
14 A. She is a manager, yes.
15 Q. Okay. Then it says translator and who is that?
16 A. I believe that was Abraham al-Gaddi.
17 Q. Abraham --
18 A. Al-Gaddi.
19 Q. And who is Abraham al-Gaddi?
20 A. He was a translator that we contracted with to provide
21 translating services.
22 Q. And did he provide translating service only for Sheikh
23 Abdel Rahman or for everybody? For anybody else rather?
24 A. He would have provided it for anybody who needed it.
25 Q. What languages did you contract with him to talk in?
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1 A. Arabic.
2 Q. And do you have on file at the office there any information
3 about his qualifications to perform his job?
4 A. I do not have the information, no.
5 Q. Does the Bureau of Prisons have a set of qualifications,
6 official set of qualifications for people it hires to be
7 translators?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Well, in your -- I am not trying to put you on the spot.
10 Do you have other people in there that didn't speak English in
11 your facility?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And did you have some translators for them too?
14 A. Most of the 9 English speakers are Hispanic and we do have
15 Spanish-speaking staff so we are able to utilize them.
16 Q. But you don't have any personal knowledge of any set of
17 qualifications for the translators, correct?
18 A. I do not.
19 Q. And you were not present at this scene, correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Now, you also looked at a SAM from the period 2001 and
22 that, I think, was Government Exhibit 329. Do you remember
23 that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you have it in front of you?
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1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Let me put that on the machine here.
3 Now, this one says "Rahman refused to sign. He
4 continued to chant through the English and Arabic
5 translations."
6 Do you see that?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Were you present when that was happening?
9 A. No, I was not.
10 Q. And in this one who was the translator?
11 A. I believe it was Abraham al-Gaddi again.
12 Q. There is no signature there, correct? Mr. al-Gaddi's
13 name -- do you see it on there?
14 A. I see the signature but I don't see a printed name.
15 Q. I see. Where it says witness, that is Mr. al-Gaddi's
16 signature?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. He signed as a witness?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, I want to turn back to -- let me do the first page if
21 I can of 321 and put that back. You said that when a SAM would
22 come you would use a word processor to prepare the actual
23 document that we see here, correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And you see there are different typefaces here. Did you
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1 have the "pursuant to" part that I am pointing to in your
2 computer already and then you would just add the other part if
3 there had been no changes from one SAM to the next?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. TIGAR: May I have just a minute, your Honor. I
6 am going to get some more exhibits for the next part.
7 Q. I want to continue on now talking about these log books and
8 how Mr. Omar Abdel Rahman would spend his day, correct?
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. All right.
11 For instance, if I may display Government Exhibit 331.
12 THE COURT: Yes.
13 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, a question to the court:
14 Should I ask the court's permission before displaying each
15 document by number or may I have permission to display them
16 giving the exhibit number in each occasion?
17 THE COURT: You can display them if they are in
18 evidence.
19 MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor.
20 Q. Now, I am putting up here what you have already discussed
21 as Government Exhibit 331. That is a page from the log book,
22 correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. And it shows here "meds given and supper meal," correct?
25 A. Correct.
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1 Q. That means that somebody would come in and give him his
2 supper, right?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. Now, down here it says "6/23/2000, Mr. R sitting close to
5 door eating an orange," right?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. Now, were people instructed to note just everything that
8 happened or did each guard describe what they would tell or put
9 on here and what not?
10 A. People were instructed to state the reason that they were
11 in there.
12 Q. And then the next item down says "PT using toilet." And I
13 don't understand the rest of that entry. Do you see that where
14 it says "PT using toilet?" There.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. And can you read the rest of that entry?
17 A. Not very well.
18 Q. But there are a number of instances here where the guards
19 would observe the inmate using the toilet and then they would
20 write that down, correct?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Now, that toilet that is in there, is that one of those
23 ones without a seat?
24 A. I don't remember exactly what the toilet looked like.
25 Q. And if he was going to use the toilet, a guard looking
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1 could observe that behavior, correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, the next one here is "breakfast delivered, accepted
4 only muffins and apple," correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And then the next one "off of tray," and then it says
7 "cream applied to both legs, no" something. Do you know what
8 that stands for?
9 A. I don't.
10 Q. And could you read the next one? Does that say "compliant
11 with medications and insulin?"
12 Is that the word compliant?
13 A. That says compliant and the next word is an abbreviation
14 for "with."
15 Q. Okay. And then "medications and insulin," right?
16 A. I can't see the bottom.
17 Q. I am sorry, I can but you can't. I apologize.
18 Can you see the next line now?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And that says "medications and insulin"?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Now, in sum, throughout his days people would watch
23 everything he was doing, correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. They could if they wanted to. There wasn't a guard there
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1 all the time, was there?
2 A. No.
3 Q. He was a federal prisoner and these observations were part
4 of the routine that was established, correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. He was the only one about him that had a log book but other
7 prisoners would get observed as well, correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And if another prisoner -- for instance, you have -- for
10 example, you had a prisoner who had been a judge in New York
11 who was being treated in your facility, correct? Do you
12 remember that?
13 A. I don't remember specifically.
14 Q. Then just take any hypothetical person. I don't want to
15 get into names. But if any person you have there is getting
16 medical treatment, you do keep a record of their medical
17 treatment, right?
18 A. Certainly.
19 Q. You don't have the same degree of detail but you keep
20 records of that.
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Now, in these instances, did you visit with Sheikh Abdel
23 Rahman yourself very often?
24 A. No. Personally, no.
25 Q. Did you talk to the guards about him?
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1 A. I don't remember if I had specific conversations with them
2 or not.
3 Q. Did you look at the log books from time to time?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And when you looked at the log books you could pretty well
6 tell that his day was spent in isolation, correct?
7 A. He was in his cell but people would come in and visit with
8 him and check on him.
9 Q. Right.
10 And the people that came in, they didn't speak his
11 language, correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. They were not people that shared his religion, correct?
14 A. As far as I know.
15 Q. He was blind, correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And did you get reports that he would react to noises that
18 were happening outside his cell that were strange or foreign or
19 upsetting to him?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And did he mention that?
22 A. Not to me specifically.
23 Q. But through your chain of command --
24 A. He mentioned it to people.
25 Q. And did he sometimes claim that things had happened, people
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1 were putting things in his cell or doing things that hadn't
2 happened?
3 MR. DEMBER: Objection, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Basis?
5 MR. DEMBER: Relevance, hearsay.
6 THE COURT: Mr. Tigar.
7 MR. TIGAR: The relevance, your Honor, are the
8 conditions --
9 THE COURT: Hearsay.
10 MR. TIGAR: I will limit it to other employees of the
11 institution acting within the scope of their employment, your
12 Honor.
13 THE COURT: No --
14 THE COURT: 801(d).
15 THE COURT: It's 10 after 11, ladies and gentlemen.
16 It's a convenient time for us to take our mid-morning break.
17 Please remember my continuing instructions not to talk
18 about the case and keep an open mind.
19 All rise please. And follow Mr. Fletcher into the
20 jury room.
21 (Jury left the courtroom)
22 THE COURT: The witness can step down.
23 Okay, first of all, I am not sure why there is really
24 an objection to a question which asks did he make complaints
25 about things that weren't true. That is simply an observation.
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1 I mean, the question was whether he complained about things
2 that were not true, and it seemed to be seeking to elicit an
3 answer that was yes. I don't know what the witness would
4 testify or not. I don't understand the basis as to why there
5 would be an objection to that before I reach the issues of
6 hearsay. It's not an issue with respect to relevance. It's
7 relevant.
8 MR. DEMBER: I am sorry, your Honor?
9 THE COURT: It's not an issue for me as to relevance.
10 It's relevant based upon the issues in the case what complaints
11 he was making or not making. The indictment itself discusses
12 the fact of reports on his prison conditions and whether those
13 prison conditions were correct or incorrect and so the subject
14 of whether he is making complaints which are untrue is
15 relevant, so it's not an issue with respect to relevance and so
16 the question in my mind is why there is even an objection
17 before I deal with the issues of hearsay.
18 MR. DEMBER: For one reason. First of all, your
19 Honor, because it is hearsay so there is an objection. Plus, I
20 don't know what comes afterwards. I don't want to not object
21 to a question which may be perceived as opening the door for
22 more inappropriate hearsay. While I don't necessarily disagree
23 with what your Honor is saying it's looking down the road to
24 the next question which would be inappropriate hearsay. It's
25 obviously double hearsay.
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1 What is alleged in the indictment though, your Honor,
2 doesn't originate with Abdel Rahman in terms of false claims
3 about his health. Those originate from a different source, not
4 from him.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 Mr. Tigar, hearsay?
7 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. We have two positions on
8 that and I didn't want to say a lot in front of the jury. I
9 don't like speaking objections and that is why we are here.
10 In the first place it's not hearsay because 801(d)
11 says statements which are not hearsay. 801(d)(2)(c) is a
12 statement by a person authorized by the party to make a
13 statement concerning the subject. I was asking her what
14 reports she had received from the people in the prison who are
15 in charge of this process. We have learned that this is a
16 person who coordinates the delivery of the SAMs --
17 THE COURT: 801 --
18 MR. TIGAR: I am sorry, your Honor, (d) also. Not
19 authorized. It's 801(d)(2)(d). I apologize, your Honor.
20 THE COURT: (d)(2)(d)?
21 MR. TIGAR: (d)(2)(d).
22 A second point, your Honor, is, look, the hearsay is
23 not claimed to be unreliable and Chambers against Mississippi
24 says, you know, basically somewhere beyond the rule book I get
25 to do this I think. That is my respectful submission.
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1 THE COURT: Mr. Dember.
2 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, what was reported to Ms.
3 Christenson is alleged to be a statement made by a correction
4 officer who heard a claim from Rahman. So there are two levels
5 of hearsay here and Mr. Tigar hasn't addressed the first. It's
6 double hearsay for that purpose.
7 THE COURT: You are welcome to check out on the
8 computer, but my recollection is that the Second Circuit says
9 in Yldiz that government agents are not agents for purposes of
10 hearsay; that the party opponent is the government and
11 government agents are not agents for purposes of the hearsay
12 rule, and so she is reporting on what someone else said and we
13 don't reach the next stage of Sheikh Abdel Rahman saying to the
14 guard who then says to the witness something.
15 MR. TIGAR: As to the Sheikh Abdel Rahman hearsay that
16 is not offered for the truth. The fact is he made a report as
17 to that. Then I won't any more insist on my view of the Second
18 Circuit and I will --
19 THE COURT: Check it.
20 MR. TIGAR: I will check, your Honor, but, as I say,
21 we have been around this before on GAF and also on Salerno.
22 THE COURT: The Court of Appeals draws a distinction
23 between statements in court and does that in Yldiz itself, puts
24 to one side Salerno, GAF, and then talks about agents of the
25 government outside of court. So you are welcome to take ten
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1 minutes, check it out.
2 MR. TIGAR: I don't need ten minutes. I don't want
3 ten minutes. If that is the law of the case and this is not
4 that important for me because, as I say, the hearsay I would
5 think there can be no reasonable question of its reliability
6 and Chambers against Mississippi says that with respect to the
7 defense seeking to offer evidence in exercise of its rights,
8 then the court should receive it provided there is some showing
9 of reliability, and we remember the facts of Chambers.
10 THE COURT: In Chambers the hearsay was a level
11 beyond, and importance beyond this comment from the guard. So
12 if it's a matter of importance you are welcome to brief it. I
13 would even call the witness back. You all have access to the
14 case law. You are welcome to check it now. The witness may
15 even be here over lunch and you can check it further. But if
16 it's not a matter of that significance --
17 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor sustained the objection to the
18 question?
19 THE COURT: Yes, for the reasons I said. But you are
20 welcome to continue to argue it and I welcome you to check it
21 out.
22 Okay.
23 MR. TIGAR: I will, your Honor, but I don't need to
24 get into an argument after the court has ruled. The court has
25 ruled; the court disagrees, fine. We will go forward.
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1 The next question, then, is in her capacity as a
2 paralegal or as a documents person, did she ever receive and
3 store reports, and one of her jobs is receiving and storing
4 reports of inmate complaints. I can ask her that, can I not?
5 In her office does she have reports of inmate complaints? If I
6 went there could I find them?
7 THE COURT: That is fine.
8 MR. TIGAR: I don't want to get into another thing
9 that would take the jury out.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 MR. TIGAR: Because these things do exist and we will
12 prove them up in our case, your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 See you shortly.
15 (Recess)
16 (In open court; jury not present)
17 THE COURT: Please be seated.
18 Are we read ready to begin in the jury?
19 MR. TIGAR: One more question, your Honor. I would
20 like to ask the witness if complaints were reflected in the log
21 book, if she remembers any of the contents of those. That
22 would be simply more of the same that we have seen.
23 THE COURT: I have no problem with that. It's an
24 exhibit in evidence.
25 MR. TIGAR: Not in the portions admitted but in other
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1 portions that we have seen that she remembered.
2 THE COURT: I have no problem with that.
3 MR. TIGAR: Mr. Dember is looking at a couple of
4 exhibits we intend to offer. I don't know if he intends to
5 offer or not. I just had them copied at the break.
6 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, are you waiting for me to
7 respond to the reference --
8 THE COURT: Yes.
9 MR. DEMBER: If the question is merely have you ever
10 seen complaints made or indicated in the log book that were
11 made which by Mr. Abdel Rahman --
12 THE COURT: Right.
13 MR. DEMBER: I have no objection to that, your Honor.
14 With respect to the two exhibits Mr. Tigar wants to
15 offer up, they are essentially the same exhibit, I believe. We
16 do have objections to them. I don't know if your Honor has
17 been provided with a copy of those exhibits. They are LS14 and
18 LS15.
19 MR. TIGAR: May I approach, your Honor? I would be
20 happy to hand them up.
21 THE COURT: Sure.
22 MR. TIGAR: As the court can see, these were documents
23 originated by the witness.
24 MR. DEMBER: This is 3500 material for the witness,
25 your Honor, that were turned over.
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1 Your Honor, in each of these exhibits, and they are
2 pretty much identical documents, the last page of each of the
3 proposed exhibit is a letter apparently dictated by Mr. Abdel
4 Rahman to his attorneys and the content is rank hearsay. So
5 for that reason alone we object to it.
6 MR. TIGAR: If your Honor please, shall I respond to
7 the hearsay objections on page 3?
8 THE COURT: I am reading.
9 MR. TIGAR: Thank you.
10 (Pause)
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 MR. TIGAR: May be be heard now, your Honor?
13 THE COURT: Yes.
14 MR. TIGAR: The first two pages we don't see an
15 objection to. This letter, this dictated letter, was during a
16 time when the government had a FISA court order to intercept --
17 and they did intercept -- all attorney-client communications.
18 They intend to play many, many of those attorney-client
19 communications to this jury. When they do so, the fact that
20 this inmate wrote a letter in which he said, "gee, I have got
21 these problems, I would like you to deal with them," would, in
22 our respectful view, be admissible under Rule 106 if nothing
23 else.
24 The reason I am offering it now is that now we have
25 the witness here who can tell us what it is. If she goes away
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1 and I don't have a chance to put these in, I will at the time
2 they begin playing those conversations make my 106 objection,
3 ask that she be brought back, and all the rest of it. That is
4 Part 1. That is the efficiency argument.
5 The only hearsay matter that could possibly be
6 considered here as we wish we had the sheikh here to be cross
7 examined is prisoners are treated like monsters. A jury can
8 easily obey the instruction that they shouldn't take that as
9 the truth. They have had plenty of testimony from Mr.
10 Fitzgerald that the man exaggerates.
11 With with respect to the others I would like to ask
12 you I suggest that is only my opinion, I am appreciative.
13 These are statements of opinion, mental condition. They are
14 statements of intention. That is to say, they are classically
15 the kinds of things that were admissible before 803(1), (2) and
16 (3) were enacted, and thereafter. That is to say, they are
17 admissible irrespective of the declarant.
18 Apparently these are documents, which were made and
19 kept in the ordinary course of the business of this institution
20 at that time, and it was in the ordinary course of business
21 that they make and keep them. Alternatively, if the witness
22 felt that she had to send these on they are reports pursuant to
23 a duty imposed by law which are offerable at defendant's
24 request under 803(a).
25 THE COURT: Mr. Dember, is there an objection to pages
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1 1 and 2?
2 MR. DEMBER: No, your Honor. In fact, that is
3 consistent with the SAMs which are in evidence, your Honor.
4 Any mails going out, sent out by Mr. Abdel Rahman, had to be
5 reviewed, as there has been testified about, by officials
6 before it could be mailed.
7 MR. TIGAR: I can't hear you.
8 MR. DEMBER: I am saying we have no objection to pages
9 1 and 2. They are consistent with the SAMs regulations and
10 restrictions.
11 With respect to the third page, your Honor, the 106
12 argument fails. He is offering the entire document. 106
13 doesn't apply to other statements made at other times by other
14 parties or even by this defendant. It's a statement in and of
15 itself, so 106 is totally irrelevant.
16 To the extent that Mr. Tigar thinks he needs to recall
17 this witness in his case to prove something, he is welcome to
18 do that, your Honor. The efficiency argument doesn't work
19 because apparently or perhaps this document was sent to three
20 lawyers -- Mr. Clark, who Mr. Tigar represents, will be
21 testifying in this case, Mr. Jabara, Mr. Schilling, and Ms.
22 Stewart, who also Mr. Tigar represents, will be testifying in
23 this case.
24 To the extent it could be relevant, your Honor, it has
25 no relevance in terms of any state of mind of this witness. It
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1 has nothing to do with it. In terms of the regular course of
2 business, your Honor, I believe this witness will testify this
3 is probably the only time that she ever had to review an
4 outgoing piece of mail by Mr. Rahman. I believe she testified
5 earlier -- she is here, maybe you want her excused -- that she
6 doesn't recall any outgoing mail being reviewed of Mr. Rahman.
7 But it's not business records, your Honor, it's a personal
8 letter by Mr. Rahman with lots of hearsay, prejudicial hearsay
9 that he attempts to send to his lawyers.
10 THE COURT: All right. The witness doesn't have to be
11 examined with respect to the contents of the third page on both
12 documents. Pages 1 and 2 are admitted without objection and I
13 reserve on page 3. So page 3 shouldn't be admitted at this
14 time or displayed to the jury.
15 MR. TIGAR: I will simply lay the document in front of
16 the witness, your Honor. I will lay -- well, if there is no
17 objection to it being received in accordance with the court's
18 direction, I will leave it at that. I won't mention it,
19 publish it, do anything with it. We will move on to something
20 else.
21 THE COURT: All right.
22 MR. TIGAR: I don't want objection to that.
23 THE COURT: If pages 1 and 2 are admitted and if you
24 wanted to explore that with her you are welcome to do that and
25 it's only page 3 that I have reserved on.
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1 MR. TIGAR: Then I will explore pages 1 and 2.
2 Thank you, your Honor.
3 Now, to save time may I just put them in front of the
4 witness now and she can have them to save time?
5 THE COURT: You may approach.
6 MR. TIGAR: Thank you.
7 THE COURT: All right.
8 Anything else?
9 Let's bring back the jury.
10 (In open court; jury present)
11 THE COURT: Please be seated all.
12 The witness is on the stand.
13 Mr. Fletcher.
14 THE CLERK: Ms. Christenson, you are reminded you are
15 still under oath.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 THE COURT: All right, when we left there was an
18 objection and the objection is sustained.
19 Mr. Tigar, you may proceed.
20 MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor.
21 Q. Ms. Christenson, we were talking about the conditions. The
22 door to Sheikh Abdel Rahman's cell, was that an iron door with
23 a window or what did the front of it look like, the front of
24 the cell?
25 A. The front of his cell, it was just a big door. Yes, it did
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1 have a window on it.
2 Q. And were there bars? Was there any other way to look out
3 other than with that window?
4 A. There was a smaller window that was in one of the sides
5 that faced into the hallway of that particular unit.
6 Q. Of course, he being blind would not be looking out but, I
7 mean, the guard that was in there would, right?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Did he have a radio, do you know?
10 A. I don't know if he had one.
11 Q. Do you know whether or not -- did he leave his cell for
12 religious services?
13 A. For a period of time.
14 Q. And then that didn't happen anymore after a time, correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And that was because there was some dispute about what had
17 happened to the service or do you know why it stopped?
18 A. I know that there was some problems. What the problems
19 were specifically, I don't.
20 (Continued on next page)
21
22
23
24
25
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1 Q. You don't have any personal knowledge of that?
2 A. Right.
3 Q. But at some point it stopped?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. Now, did he have religious visitation from outside, that
6 is, did a Muslim chaplain type person come to visit him?
7 A. Not to my knowledge.
8 Q. Now, do you have a practice at your prison where chaplains
9 from outside can visit inmates of particular faiths?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. To your knowledge, that didn't happen to him, correct?
12 A. To my knowledge, that's correct.
13 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge as to whether he ever
14 requested a Bible in Arabic?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. And do you have any personal knowledge of how telephone
17 calls to his wife were handled?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And how often was he permitted to call his wife?
20 A. There was once a month.
21 Q. For how long a time?
22 A. 15 minutes.
23 Q. In that 15 minutes that he could call his wife once a
24 month, someone who spoke Arabic would be there, is that right?
25 Would there be someone who spoke Arabic in your end involved in
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
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46UMSAT4 Christenson - cross
1 the call?
2 A. Personally or physically, no.
3 Q. Nonphysically.
4 A. We had a tape recording prepared by our translator that was
5 played at the beginning of each telephone call.
6 Q. Now, do your telephones at the prison have signs on them,
7 the phones that inmates use, saying, this telephone will be
8 monitored?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. But they are in English, right?
11 A. In English and in Spanish, I believe.
12 Q. And, of course, a blind person couldn't read those, right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. But you would have those tape recorded?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did the prison have a practice of recording the actual
17 telephone call between the prisoner and the prisoner's wife?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you have a practice of sending those tapes to the
20 lawyers for the prison?
21 A. To our agency attorney?
22 Q. No. To his lawyer, to Ramsey Clark and Ms. Stewart.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Those are your records, right?
25 A. Correct.
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46UMSAT4 Christenson - cross
1 Q. For your purposes?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. And to your knowledge, none of his lawyers ever received a
4 copy of any of those recordings of the calls with his wife, is
5 that right?
6 A. To the best of my knowledge, that's correct.
7 Q. Now, when we were looking at some of those photographs of
8 the room, I just want to ask about one of them.
9 I'm placing up here and I am going to zoom so we can
10 see the whole thing.
11 THE COURT: Could you identify the exhibit?
12 MR. TIGAR: I'm sorry?
13 THE COURT: Identify the exhibit.
14 MR. TIGAR: I'm sorry, your Honor. This is Government
15 363. There it comes, Government 363 in evidence.
16 Q. At the bottom, that's the date you took the picture?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Does your camera have one of those little deals that prints
19 it out?
20 A. The date?
21 Q. Yes, the date.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You notice that there are Venetian blinds at the top of
24 these windows where I'm putting my finger, correct?
25 A. Correct.
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46UMSAT4 Christenson - cross
1 Q. When the legal visits would take place in this room, were
2 the blinds open or closed?
3 A. Open.
4 Q. Was that a requirement of the prison, that the blinds be
5 open?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, on the opposite side you have an office that
8 physically looks something like this that has windows and so
9 on?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you keep your blinds open or closed?
12 A. I do both. It depends on the day.
13 Q. Sometimes in your work you have jobs you're working on that
14 other people aren't supposed to look at, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you take care to make sure that if it is none of their
17 business they don't look at it, right?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And sometimes to do that you close the blinds, correct?
20 A. True.
21 Q. And sometimes you put your legal files in folders or
22 drawers where other people can't get at them, right?
23 A. True.
24 Q. That's one of the things that you're instructed to do as
25 part of your job, right?
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46UMSAT4 Christenson - cross
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, I wanted to look at some of these log sheets to just
3 take a few minutes and get an idea about the daily life of the
4 prison so we can have a picture.
5 MR. TIGAR: May I have a moment, your Honor?
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 Q. I am going to place on the overhead what's been received in
8 evidence as Government Exhibit 333, and I am going to direct
9 your attention to this entry that says 1830 to 1900, all right?
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. And that appears to be from July 31, 2000, correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. And it says: Inmate something. Can you read that?
14 A. No, not very well.
15 Q. And then the next sentence says: Room cleaned?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And then it says: Removed paper from inside of door that
18 was covering voice box.
19 Was there a voice box in his cell?
20 A. It is in the door.
21 Q. And what's it for? What does it do?
22 A. It just allows people to communicate easier so they can
23 actually hear through the door.
24 Q. So the door is metal and is it like one of those things
25 where you go to the movies and you buy a ticket and you say, I
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46UMSAT4 Christenson - cross
1 want two tickets to the show? What is it like?
2 A. If you would look at it, it looks like little holes.
3 Q. Just a hole?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And then it says: He had used chocolate to stick it up.
6 Is that what it says?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is this a report that the inmate had taken some chocolate
9 and stuck something to his door?
10 A. It appears to be.
11 Q. Now, here is one, jumping to Exhibit 334, it says:
12 Prisoner wandering back and forth chanting, correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And then later on down here we get: Lotion to feet, put
15 out garbage, correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And then later on Rahman is praying, stated everything is
18 okay, right?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Here is the second page of Government Exhibit 339, and
21 that's from October 31, 2000, correct? Inmate Rahman refused
22 his food tray. I requested that he take down the cardboard off
23 his cell window, and he yelled no, correct?
24 THE COURT: I'm sorry.
25 Q. Is that right?
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46UMSAT4 Christenson - cross
1 THE COURT: One moment. Your question talked about
2 October 31.
3 MR. TIGAR: Yes. I'm sorry. Thank you.
4 Q. Is that October 21 or 31?
5 A. I believe it is October 21.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 Did I read the rest of it correctly?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, is it part of your responsibility to keep track of
10 disciplinary matters concerning inmates?
11 A. My responsibility, no.
12 Q. Do you have any responsibility for logging or keeping track
13 of the results of disciplinary actions with respect to inmates?
14 A. I do not.
15 Q. Do the logbooks that you have -- I'm not talking about the
16 pages you brought -- did they keep track of requests to see the
17 warden?
18 A. They may. I don't know for certain.
19 Q. If the warden visited the inmate, would that visit be in
20 the logbook?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Because that's a part of the procedure, correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. But none of the sheets that you brought with it show us
25 those visits, right?
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46UMSAT4 Christenson - cross
1 A. I don't know if they do or not.
2 Q. You don't remember. The point is, other than the one log
3 sheets that were lost in that fire, the one that got water
4 damaged, somebody could go there and look and see if there are
5 any warden visits in there, right?
6 A. The log sheets that were lost in the fire were visitor
7 logs.
8 Q. So the logbooks about the cell, you got all of those,
9 right?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. But if there were any warden visits, then in the ordinary
12 course of a business day they would be in those log sheets,
13 correct?
14 A. Right.
15 Q. I wanted to ask you, finally, final one of these. I'm
16 placing up Government 353 on the projector. I'm looking at the
17 entry of 1/4/02. Can you tell us what that says?
18 A. 1/4/02 says: Patient CS163, patient accepted bagel, I
19 believe, and milk. Ted's -- I can't read the last word.
20 Q. Ted's off?
21 A. Ted's off maybe. Garbage emptied. VSS, insulin and PO
22 medication given. Patient cooperative.
23 Q. Does it say: Will call?
24 A. Will call plumber for stool.
25 Q. Do you have any idea what that means?
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46UMSAT4 Christenson - cross
1 A. I have no idea.
2 Q. Do you know who made the entry?
3 A. I don't know whose signature that is.
4 Q. Then just two questions about the SAM. The first,
5 Government 321, you showed us -- we looked at that and that is
6 the signature of the translator, is that correct, that I'm
7 pointing to?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Ms. Christenson,