22 July 2004
Source: Digital file from Southern District Reporters Office; (212) 805-0300.
This is the transcript of Day 27 of the proceeding and Day 18 of the trial.
See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ssy-dt.htm
Lynne Stewart web site with case documents: http://www.lynnestewart.org/
4259 47MLSAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 July 22, 2004 8 9:25 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID STERN 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4260 47MLSAT1 1 THE COURT: Good morning, all. Please be seated. 2 Just looking over the exhibits in the transcript 3 yesterday -- 4 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, could you talk into the 5 microphone? I'm sorry, we're having trouble hearing you. 6 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Looking over the exhibits on 7 the final page of the transcript, it indicates 1015D received 8 yesterday. 1015 itself had previously been received, right? 9 MR. TIGAR: That's my understanding, yes, your Honor. 10 That was the original offer. 11 THE COURT: Okay. The only outstanding issue I left 12 yesterday was Government Exhibit 212, and I'll sustain the 13 objection to Government Exhibit 212. 14 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, may I just make a couple of 15 points with respect to that exhibit? 16 THE COURT: Sure. 17 MR. DEMBER: It's not coming in today, so.... 18 But if I may, your Honor, the point I made yesterday, 19 that this exhibit seemed to be different than others that were 20 introduced from the Abdel Rahman trial. And what we believe 21 distinguishes this one from the others is that most of the 22 others consist of speeches where Abdel Rahman preaches 23 violence. The other intercepted calls have tidbits of 24 information in which he's referred to as the leader of the 25 Group, and there's also one in which he is asked about the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4261 47MLSAT1 1 propriety of Taurus coming to Egypt and whether there's a 2 guarantee of safety or not from this Taurus. 3 This is different, your Honor. Obviously he's engaged 4 in a conversation with someone who is reporting to him what 5 apparently is a terrorist attack which occurred shortly before 6 that conversation which from the transcript appears not to have 7 been reported publicly because there's a reference in the 8 transcript to it being a secret matter that was not reported 9 apparently by the government or the media. 10 And what distinguishes this, your Honor, in our view 11 is that it not only shows, proves Miss Stewart's knowledge that 12 Abdel Rahman preaches violence, but that he is associated with 13 people who engage in violence. The conversation, which isn't 14 very long, talks about this terrorist attack refers to the 15 brothers, Abdel Rahman is informed about what happened. At the 16 end of it he makes a comment like, May God guide your way for 17 the best. 18 And what we think it clearly demonstrates is, in this 19 case, is that Ms. Stewart knows that Abdel Rahman is associated 20 with people who will engage in terrorist acts. That is 21 extremely relevant to Count 5 of this indictment, the material 22 support charge where one of the elements we have to prove is 23 that -- is that Miss Stewart acted with knowledge or intent; 24 that the support that she was providing Abdel Rahman, as a 25 coconspirator, was going to be used in preparation for or to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4262 47MLSAT1 1 carry out a conspiracy to kill or kidnap persons outside the 2 United States. And what this demonstrates is that she has 3 knowledge, that she's associated with people who will do that 4 more directly than his mere preachings that have been 5 introduced into evidence. 6 We submit, your Honor, it is far more direct proof of 7 knowledge that than other forms of proof we've introduced that 8 only goes to knowledge, in the case of the Sattar search 9 evidence, and other documents we've produced into evidence that 10 Mr. Sattar was in possession of, and his possession of it will 11 be argued by the government to prove that he had knowledge of 12 the contents of those documents with respect to this particular 13 exhibit, 212. This was an exhibit introduced at Abdel Rahman's 14 trial. We will prove that it was read in open court and that 15 Miss Stewart heard it. So it's not merely something that she 16 was in possession of; it's something she heard and knew. 17 Finally, your Honor, with respect to argument raised 18 by Mr. Tigar yesterday about back in 1993, I would just remind 19 the Court that all the intercepted calls were intercepted in 20 1993. That the speeches that were introduced from the Abdel 21 Rahman trial occurred in 1993 or beforehand because he was 22 arrested and in custody from 1993 on. For those reasons your 23 Honor, we think it's direct proof and should be admitted. 24 THE COURT: I'm always happy to listen to argument and 25 will listen again to the defendants. There is among other SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4263 47MLSAT1 1 things, as you correctly point out, a distinction between 2 speeches and statements by Abdel Rahman who, among other 3 things, is alleged to be, in this case, a coconspirator; whose 4 knowledge, intent and state of mind is itself at issue. And 5 when the parties have put at issue the meaning of statements by 6 Omar Abdel Rahman, that is a different question from the 7 statements by a Mohammed "last name unknown" in 1993 to Abdel 8 Rahman to show Abdel Rahman's state of mind or Miss Stewart's 9 state of mind having heard the conversation. You don't want me 10 to rule on it today, okay, I won't rule on it today. And I'll 11 listen to whatever the defendants want to tell me about 12 government Exhibit 212. 13 Do you want to tell me now? 14 MR. TIGAR: Well, your Honor, it is 20 minutes to 15 10:00. If the Court felt it would be more convenient to 16 reserve on this, I certainly would like the opportunity to 17 respond. 18 THE COURT: That's fine. 19 MR. TIGAR: But I think we have some jurors waiting. 20 THE COURT: Good. 21 MR. TIGAR: And I will be just as happy to do it after 22 the jurors have left for today. Because we're only getting a 23 half day anyway. 24 THE COURT: That's fine. Okay. 25 Where are we then when we bring in the jurors? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4264 47MLSAT1 1 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point I think we had 2 gotten up to the point where we were going to play for the jury 3 with accompanying English transcripts as aids government 4 Exhibits 1015X, 1245X, 1246X, and 1247X. All of those are in 5 English. 6 And then there is a series of calls in Arabic. 7 THE COURT: I'm sorry, 1015 is -- 8 MR. BARKOW: 1015. 9 THE COURT: Is in Arabic. 10 MR. BARKOW: The first four are in English. 1015X, 11 1245X, 1246X, 1247X, are all in English. 12 And then there's a series of Arabic calls, 1018X, 13 1019X, 1020X, 1021X. So those four are in Arabic. I'm pretty 14 confident that will take us at least to a break but I can keep 15 going if the Court wants to know the plan after that. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 MR. BARKOW: Should I keep going? 18 THE COURT: That's all right if that's going to take 19 us to a break. 20 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor will remind the jury that the 21 English transcripts are limited -- 22 THE COURT: I'll remind them at the beginning of the 23 morning about the instructions that I've given them with 24 respect to transcripts, both English and Arabic. 25 And -- okay. The Arabic transcripts have been the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4265 47MLSAT1 1 subject of a stipulation which has already been read. 2 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. Those were subject to 3 the stipulation Ms. Baker read yesterday, which I think is 4 1000S-2, although I'm not sure that these "X" exhibits have 5 been admitted into evidence, and so as we get to each one, I 6 guess we could offer into evidence, just to confirm -- 7 THE COURT: On the basis of the stipulation. 8 MR. BARKOW: That stipulation and the other 9 stipulations related to voice attributions and etc. 10 THE COURT: Why don't you do that at the beginning of 11 the four transcripts so you don't have to do it repeatedly, 12 1018 through 1021. 13 MR. BARKOW: Okay. 14 Let's bring in the jury. 15 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I need to retrieve something 16 upstairs, no reason to delay things. I'll be back in two 17 minutes. I may beat the jury back or I may not. 18 THE COURT: Okay, that's fine. 19 (Jury entering) 20 (In open court) 21 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. Good morning, 22 ladies and gentlemen. 23 JURORS: Good morning. 24 THE COURT: Good to see you all. 25 All right. Ladies and gentlemen, a preliminary SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4266 47MLSAT1 1 instruction for you: I understand that today there'll be 2 recordings and transcripts which will be played and read for 3 you. Some of the recordings are in English, and I've given you 4 an instruction with respect to transcripts of recordings that 5 are in English. And you're to apply that instruction here. 6 Very briefly, as I told you, the transcripts of 7 English conversations are provided to you as an aid to you in 8 listening to the recordings, to assist you in listening to the 9 recordings which are in evidence. The typed documents are not 10 in and of themselves evidence. When the recordings are played, 11 you should listen very carefully to the recordings themselves. 12 You should make your own determination of what appears on the 13 recordings based on what you've heard. If you think you hear 14 something differently from what appears on the transcript, then 15 what you hear is controlling. You, the jury, are the sole 16 judges of the facts. 17 With respect to the transcripts of Arabic 18 conversations, the transcripts or portions of the transcripts 19 of the conversations that are in Arabic embody the testimony of 20 the Arabic translators as to what appears in the recordings. 21 These transcripts are admitted into evidence. 22 To the extent that you accept or reject the testimony 23 of the witnesses, the translators, you may accept or reject the 24 transcripts themselves of the Arabic conversation. Remember 25 that the jury is the ultimate fact-finder and, as with all SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4267 47MLSAT1 1 evidence, you may give the transcripts such weight, if any, as 2 you believe they deserve. 3 Again, you are to apply those instructions for the 4 transcripts that are provided to you today. And those same 5 instructions will apply to other transcripts in the course of 6 the case. I just remind you about those instructions, and I 7 will not be repeating them before each transcript is given to 8 you. But you are to apply them to each of the transcripts. 9 All right? 10 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, before we begin with the 11 playing and reading of calls, we'd like to offer into evidence 12 Government Exhibits 1018X, 1019X, 1020X and 1021X. 13 THE COURT: All right. No objections to the 14 transcripts? They're received in evidence. 15 (Government's Exhibits 1018X, 1019X, 1020X, 1021X 16 received in evidence) 17 MR. BARKOW: And at this point, your Honor, we'd 18 request permission to play for the jury Government Exhibit -- a 19 small portion of Government Exhibit 1015, which is the 20 unenhanced recording, and then play the entirety of government 21 Exhibit 1015D, which is the enhanced recording. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MR. BARKOW: And at the same time, may we display the 24 transcript on the screen for the jury? 25 THE COURT: All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4268 47MLSAT1 1 MR. BARKOW: And your Honor, if the jury could be 2 asked to place their headphones. 3 THE COURT: Yes. Ladies and gentlemen, if you would 4 put your headphones on. Dot out; dot facing out. And turn the 5 headphones on. 6 (At this point, Government Exhibits 1015X and 1015, in 7 evidence, were displayed and played for the jury). 8 THE COURT: One moment. One juror is having a problem 9 with the headphone. Hold on. Okay? 10 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may we play a little more 11 just to test out the headset? 12 THE COURT: Yes, sure. 13 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, the computer restarts from 14 the beginning. 15 (At this point, Government Exhibits 1015 and 1015X, in 16 evidence, were displayed and played for the jury). 17 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, may we now switch and play 18 1015D, the enhanced recording, to the jury? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 MR. BARKOW: It will take just a second to set up. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1015D, in evidence, 23 was played for the jury) 24 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point we would 25 request permission to play for the jury Government SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4269 47MLSAT1 1 Exhibit 1245, and to display on the screen, the transcript on 2 the screen, while we play it. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 MR. BARKOW: This is a call from June 1st, 1999, 5 12:37 p.m. 6 THE COURT: All right, ladies and gentlemen, you'll 7 have to put your earphones on. 8 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1245X, in evidence, 9 was displayed to the jury). 10 MR. BARKOW: Using a transcript as an aid, we'd like 11 to play for the jury Government Exhibit 1246. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 MR. BARKOW: This is a call from June 1st, 1999, 14 1:07 p.m. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1246, in evidence, 17 was played for the jury). 18 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point the government 19 requests permission to play for the jury, with a transcript as 20 an aid, Government Exhibit 1247, which is a call from June 11, 21 1999, 4:21 p.m. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 (At this point, Government Exhibits 1247 and 1247X, in 24 evidence, were displayed and played for the jury) 25 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point the government SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4270 47MLSAT1 1 requests permission to play to the jury the beginning of 2 Government Exhibit 1018, which is in Arabic, and then read the 3 transcript to the jury. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 MR. BARKOW: This is a call, your Honor, on July 2nd 6 of 1999 at 4:13 p.m. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1018, in evidence, 9 was played for the jury) 10 (Continued on next page) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4271 47MSSAT2 1 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point may Mr. Forkner 2 go to the witness stand to read the lines attributed to 3 Mr. Sattar? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 Ladies and gentlemen, you can take the earphones off 6 and remember to turn them off right now to save the batteries. 7 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, this is a call on July 2, '99 8 at 4:13 p.m. Mr. Forkner will be reading the lines of 9 Mr. Sattar and I will be reading the lines of Yassir al-Sirri. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 MR. BARKOW: May we proceed? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1018X in evidence 14 was read to the jury) 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 This would be a convenient time for us to take our 17 mid-morning break. 18 We will break for ten minutes. 19 Ladies and gentlemen, please remember my instructions 20 not to talk about the case and keep an open mind. 21 All rise please. 22 Please follow Mr. Fletcher. 23 (Jury left the courtroom) 24 THE COURT: All right, we will take ten minutes. 25 (Recess) (PAGES 4272-4280 SEALED) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4281 47MLSAT3 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: All right, let's bring in the jury. 3 (Jury entering courtroom) 4 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 5 All right. We are continuing with the transcript? 6 MR. DEMBER: Yes, your Honor. With your permission, 7 at this time we'd like to read and display for the jury 8 Exhibit 1019X. It is a transcript of a conversation which 9 occurred on August 9th, 1999 at 12:40 p.m. I will read the 10 part of Mohammed Al-Shafi'i, and Mr. Forkner will read the part 11 of Ahmed Abdel Sattar. May we display it to the jury? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1019X, in evidence, 14 was displayed and read to the jury) 15 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point we would 16 request permission to publish to the jury the transcript of 17 Government Exhibit 1020X and read that. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, this is a call on August 9th, 20 1999 at 7:28 p.m. Mr. Forkner will be reading the lines of 21 Ahmed Abdel Sattar, and I'll be reading the lines of Yassir 22 Al-Sirri. May we proceed? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1020X, in evidence, 25 was displayed and read to the jury) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4282 47MLSAT3 1 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor at this time the government 2 would read and publish to the jury Exhibit 1021X. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 MR. MORVILLO: It's a call, for the record, of 5 August 9th, 1999. Mr. Forkner will read the attributions to 6 Mr. Sattar, and I will read the attributions to the 7 unidentified male. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1021X, in evidence, 10 was displayed and read to the jury) 11 (Continued on next page) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4283 47MSSAT4 1 THE COURT: That takes us to about 12:11. 2 MR. BARKOW: The next one is much longer, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: So we will break for the day. 4 Ladies and gentlemen, we will break for the day and we 5 are breaking obviously for the weekend and we will resume at 6 9:30 on Monday morning and so I often emphasize my instructions 7 even more even though they apply all the time. Just because 8 there is a little more time over the weekend, I want to 9 reiterate for all of you my continuing instructions. 10 Please don't look at or listen to anything to do with 11 the case. If you should see or hear something inadvertently 12 simply turn away. Please remember not to talk about the case 13 or anything to do with it among yourselves or with anyone when 14 you go home. 15 Remember always to keep an open mind until you have 16 heard all of the evidence, I have instructed you on the law, 17 and you have gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. 18 Fairness and justice to the parties requires that you do that. 19 With that, have a very good weekend and I look forward 20 very much to seeing you next week. 21 All rise please. 22 Please follow Mr. Fletcher into the jury room. 23 (Jury left the courtroom) 24 THE COURT: Please be seated all. 25 There was Government Exhibit 212. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4284 47MSSAT4 1 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor, I had a chance to look 2 back at the record and we respectfully submit that your Honor's 3 ruling this morning was correct. 4 THE COURT: I hadn't ruled yet. 5 MR. TIGAR: You said it was excluded when we started 6 this morning. 7 THE COURT: You are right, I hadn't given my 8 explanation. I said I would sustain the objection and the 9 government asked to be heard -- 10 MR. TIGAR: I am not trying to derive an undue 11 advantage, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: No, that is all right. You are correct. 13 MR. TIGAR: The relevance of this evidence when it was 14 first offered or discussed in open court on the 24th of June 15 was that it was introduced at the trial of Sheikh Omar Abdel 16 Rahman and that Lynne Stewart heard it. And, indeed, that was 17 the text of a stipulation that was entered into with respect to 18 the sermons and the telephone calls. 19 The telephone calls in question include not only 212, 20 which is now offered, but 207, 208, 209, 210 and 211, I 21 believe. 208 and 209 were published to the jury on the 30th of 22 June. Now there seems to be some argument about additional 23 relevance but these calls are from 1993 and so they are outside 24 the charged conspiracy period. 25 There are hearsay issues with respect at least to the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4285 47MSSAT4 1 speakers who are not Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman and with respect 2 to their estimates, but it is said that it's not offered for 3 the truth. 4 We have, therefore, some relevance issues, some 5 hearsay issues in addition to the relevance issues that we 6 raised that said that all of this evidence from the sheikh's 7 trial should be excluded. 8 So that is the context. 9 Now, this morning Mr. Dember said that the 10 significance is, one, that Mr. Mohammed, whoever that might 11 be -- and there are a great many Muslims named Mohammed -- is 12 recognizing Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman as a leader because he is 13 calling him to report something that the Egyptian press or 14 Egyptian government didn't want reported; that he is calling 15 him to report something about an attack on a tourist bus, more 16 precisely and accurately on the police that were protecting the 17 tourist bus because Abdel Rahman asked were any tourists 18 injured, and then there is some reference to the fact that the 19 city where this took place is a city that has also been 20 mentioned by somebody. 21 What have we already had about that? Well, we had 22 Government Exhibit 14, which is Ms. Stewart's signed statement 23 about which Mr. Fitzgerald testified at great length in which 24 Ms. Stewart says "I understand that terrorist actions have been 25 carried out by persons using his name subsequent to his SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4286 47MSSAT4 1 conviction," which is, after all, the relevant time period, not 2 1993. And she understands that and she writes it and Mr. 3 Fitzgerald talks about it. 4 Mr. Fitzgerald also said that Sheikh Abdel Rahman, to 5 his knowledge, had not denounced the Luxor attack. We had a 6 lot of testimony about that. So we are getting to the 403 7 issue here. 8 In addition to that, if we look at 208T, which is in 9 evidence and has been published to the jury, here are all these 10 references to the brothers in Egypt and Mohammed, whoever that 11 is, we don't know if it's the same one, saying that they are 12 arresting the brothers. They dropped them off on the streets 13 where they arrested and killed them. There were some brothers 14 in Aswan. There was an attack on a mosque, and so forth and so 15 on. 16 Then when we turn to 209T, which, as I say, I believe 17 was read to the jury, there is precisely a discussion of the 18 circumstances under which Abdel Rahman believes that it either 19 is or isn't justified to attack tourist sites. And it's pretty 20 clear that this is not a report. The jury has heard him saying 21 that if we were going to kill tourists there would be 1000 dead 22 tourists. As it happened, we have not been attacking tourists, 23 civilians, we have been going after police. 24 Now, that is not to say that it's justified to do that 25 or not justified or whatever. But the issue has been amply SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4287 47MSSAT4 1 covered in the very exhibits that have already been published 2 to the jury and there are three more telephone calls in 3 evidence that have not already been published to the jury. 4 So given the relatively marginal relevance, given the 5 hearsay issues, there certainly is 403 territory here. And, 6 also -- and I am going to say a thing that is likely to be 7 least convincing to your Honor about this but which is 8 important to us, and that is I wrote the court a letter about 9 the McDermott case and our view of limiting instructions, and 10 our view of this is that when the evidence is already offered 11 for a special purpose, because Lynne Stewart heard it, and when 12 it has problems in it about hearsay and not for the truth, that 13 because it relates, as this does, to 1993 views of Sheikh Omar 14 Abdel Rahman which are arguably not connected, not sufficiently 15 relevant to be connected to the charged conspiracies, that this 16 is the sort of thing in which the limiting instructions, such 17 as they be, have the least power because of the very thing that 18 Judge Oakes was talking about in McDermott. 19 The killing of tourists, the killing of civilians, is 20 hot stuff. It's like Mr. Pomponio's testimony that was what 21 was at issue in McDermott. And I don't rely on that case for 22 all of its holding but it seems to us that we get to the margin 23 and when we get to the margin of the efficacy of limiting 24 instructions, we then are in 403 territory if I am making 25 myself clear. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4288 47MSSAT4 1 That was the purpose of my singling out the part of 2 Justice Souter's opinion in Old Chief that seemed to support 3 that view and contrasting it with Justice Scalia's view and 4 dissent who said, "What's the problem here, why not a Rule 105 5 limiting instruction?" 6 And without in the least attacking your Honor's 7 general view about limiting instructions, which I am not doing, 8 it seems to me that what your Honor started the day with was a 9 correct view, a view that is now, in my opinion, sustained by a 10 careful review of what the jury already has. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. DEMBER: May I, your Honor? 13 THE COURT: Sure. 14 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, it seems as if Mr. Tigar may 15 be operating under a false premise. All the previous Abdel 16 Rahman speeches introduced at his trial, and the intercepted 17 calls intercepted and introduced at this trial, were offered 18 and introduced with no limiting instructions whatsoever for 19 this jury. They obviously could consider it to establish Ms. 20 Stewart's knowledge and for Abdel Rahman's intent which 21 obviously is quite relevant in this case. 22 THE COURT: But that argument actually supports the 23 defendants' argument that there is less basis in terms of the 24 cumulative nature of this exhibit to introduce it. 25 MR. DEMBER: Except, your Honor, unlike those other SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4289 47MSSAT4 1 intercepted calls, the intercepted calls separately from the 2 speeches, very few of them speak directly to the kind of 3 conduct that is discussed in this particular conversation which 4 goes to the very heart of our case, which is the use of 5 violence and merely the actual use of violence, which is 6 advocated by Abdel Rahman. This particular exhibit speaks 7 directly to that. 8 I would disagree with Mr. Tigar's characterization of 9 Government Exhibit 208, which is I would think the conversation 10 in which a female caller presses Abdel Rahman on whether there 11 is some type of covenant that is owed to tourists, foreign 12 tourists who come to Egypt, that they be allowed to remain in 13 the country safety. And Abdel Rahman refuses to concede there 14 is such a guarantee or a promise to such tourists. And there 15 is a reference to particularly one, it's not named where that 16 particular incident occurred, where I believe one British 17 subject, a citizen, was killed. Abdel Rahman says if our 18 intent was to kill more we would have killed more at that time. 19 But there is reference to a particular incident. 20 This is quite different. This is a conversation that 21 speaks specifically and directly to a particular incident, 22 unlike any other speech or intercepted call that was introduced 23 from the Abdel Rahman trial. The other ones are the speeches 24 talking in generalities and he is preaching. He doesn't speak 25 of specific incidents other than making references to the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4290 47MSSAT4 1 murder of Anwar Sadat perhaps, and the other intercepted calls 2 talk vaguely about -- very few of them actually talk 3 specifically about terrorist acts or uses of violence. 4 With respect to the fact that this is a call that not 5 only reflects or is offered to prove Ms. Stewart's knowledge 6 and intent, unlike the letter, the Exhibit 14, which is in 7 evidence, which is the letter and the accompanying documents 8 that were sent to Ms. Stewart by Mr. Fitzgerald, this is 9 knowledge that predates 2000. This is knowledge she has and 10 she had, yes, during the course of that trial, Abdel Rahman's 11 trial which occurred in 1995, which is perhaps the first 12 opportunity she has to gain knowledge of Abdel Rahman, his 13 views, and his dealings with others. We disagree there is with 14 respect to this particular exhibit -- there no hearsay, your 15 Honor. 16 Abdel Rahman is engaged in a conversation with an 17 individual named Mohammed. He is not simply receiving 18 information, he is inquiring. He is asking of this individual 19 what happened, what were the results of the operation. He asks 20 what happens to the tourist cars, do they stop or did it stop, 21 and at the end of it he essentially gives his blessing to the 22 operation. He goes, "Well, thanks to God, may God guide you 23 away for the best," which is approval of what happened, clearly 24 demonstrating his mind-set, his intent, which is obviously 25 relevant with respect to Count 2 of this indictment, and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4291 47MSSAT4 1 clearly demonstrating and clearly indicating or is evidence of 2 Ms. Stewart's knowledge of what Abdel Rahman thinks and what he 3 does. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 I will sustain the objection. Any relevance as to 6 matters at issue, such as Ms. Stewart's state of mind with 7 respect to the crimes charged or Omar Abdel Rahman's state of 8 mind as a co-conspirator in conspiracies charged, is 9 substantially outweighed by the danger of unfair prejudice 10 given the allegations of violence against the police and, thus, 11 should be excluded under Federal Rule of Evidence 403. 12 The relevance of the evidence is also reduced by the 13 length of time before the crimes charged in the counts at issue 14 and the cumulative nature of the evidence to the extent it is 15 offered for state of mind of Ms. Stewart or Abdel Rahman's 16 state of mind based on the evidence submitted already. 17 All right. 18 Anything else? 19 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, with regard to the status of 20 the transcripts, et cetera, and FISA restriction that the 21 government is exploring, Mr. Morvillo and I discussed it this 22 morning and he is still talking with the FISA people. I asked 23 him whether under those circumstances he wanted me to deliver 24 draft transcripts to the walled assistant and he said, look, 25 that would expedite matters and asked me actually to give them SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4292 47MSSAT4 1 to him to give to the walled team, which I am happy to do. 2 So I am about to give Mr. Morvillo three CDs. One is 3 marked Exhibit MY-1000T, which is the Yousry notebooks, and it 4 contains a notation draft 7/21/2004. MY-1100T are prison 5 visits, the complete prison visits. It's a draft of July 2l, 6 2004. And MY-1200T are 52 prison calls out of 61 or 62, again 7 containing the note draft 7/21/04, and I will hand them to Mr. 8 Morvillo now with the understanding that these are drafts and 9 if there is cross examination on the same conditions that we 10 receive draft transcripts under. 11 THE COURT: Okay. Do the 52 prison calls overlap with 12 the 20 to 25 that the government -- I thought the government 13 said they were -- 14 MR. RUHNKE: I have not had a chance to cross 15 reference them. I am assuming they do. 16 MR. MORVILLO: There are only a total of 63 prison 17 calls so there would have to be some overlap. 18 MR. RUHNKE: Some of them would have to be the same. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MR. MORVILLO: With respect to the status of the FISA 21 court application, your Honor, that is moving forward, as far 22 as I understand, and just so we are all clear here, I may be 23 overly optimistic that we will have an order some time today or 24 tomorrow that will allow the trial team to have access to these 25 materials. Am I correct in assuming that we do not need to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4293 47MSSAT4 1 come back to your Honor to allow the trial team to have access 2 to these materials? Once we get an order from the court we can 3 inform all the parties we received that order, but do you want 4 us to await a further order from your Honor before we can 5 review these materials? 6 THE COURT: No. You don't need a further order from 7 me. My understanding is none of the parties in this case 8 object to your having the trial team get that information. 9 Sheikh Abdel Rahman's lawyer did not object to your getting 10 that information and the prior order of the court was that 11 once -- my recollection is once the defendants indicated their 12 intent to offer that, offer other portions, those portions were 13 then to be turned over to the trial team unless the defendant 14 says that they reflected or said they reflected some sort of 15 defense strategy in which case they would be sent to the wall 16 team and here there is no defense strategy because they say 17 turn them all over. So unless I am missing something, the 18 government doesn't have to come back to me. 19 MR. MORVILLO: That was my assumption, your Honor, but 20 I just wanted to clarify it. 21 MR. RUHNKE: We agree with that analysis as well. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Anything else? 23 Okay. See you all on Monday at 9:15. 24 (Trial adjourned to July 26, 2004 at 9:15 a.m.) 25 o 0 o SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4294 47MSSAT4 1 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS 2 Exhibit No. Received 3 1018X, 1019X, 1020X, 1021X . . . . . . . . . . 4267 4 5 o 0 o 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300
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