20 February 2001
Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of
New York; (212) 805-0300.
This is the transcript of Day 7 of the trial.
See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm
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1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 ------------------------------x
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
4 v. S(7) 98 Cr. 1023
5 USAMA BIN LADEN, et al.,
6 Defendants.
7 ------------------------------x
8
New York, N.Y.
9 February 20, 2001
9:50 a.m.
10
11
12 Before:
13 HON. LEONARD B. SAND,
14 District Judge
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1 APPEARANCES
2 MARY JO WHITE
United States Attorney for the
3 Southern District of New York
BY: PATRICK FITZGERALD
4 KENNETH KARAS
PAUL BUTLER
5 Assistant United States Attorneys
6
ANTHONY L. RICCO
7 EDWARD D. WILFORD
CARL J. HERMAN
8 SANDRA A. BABCOCK
Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh
9
FREDRICK H. COHN
10 DAVID P. BAUGH
LAURA GASIOROWSKI
11 Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali
12 DAVID STERN
DAVID RUHNKE
13 Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed
14
SAM A. SCHMIDT
15 JOSHUA DRATEL
KRISTIAN K. LARSEN
16 Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage
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1 (Trial resumed)
2 THE COURT: Before I bring in the jury, is there any
3 matter that has to be taken up?
4 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, I just want to express to
5 the court and the government what I plan to do in
6 cross-examination related to possible classified documents. I
7 don't think that the cross-examination itself is going to be
8 an issue, but the answers of the witness may present issues,
9 and I want to present that to the court. I set forth my
10 position in my letter last week.
11 THE COURT: You are alerting the court to your
12 reservation of a right subsequent to the conclusion of the
13 cross-examination of the witness to renew applications with
14 respect to discovery or declassification of material that you
15 have been furnished? Is that your concern?
16 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, I don't know that it would
17 be appropriate to call it reserving my rights under it. I
18 raised this issue before. I plan to go into some questions,
19 and I think that that already entails some CIPA issues, and I
20 want to make sure that there is no violation of CIPA by my
21 questioning.
22 THE COURT: When the parties were last before the
23 court, which I believe was last Thursday morning, I restated
24 very explicitly what I believed the procedures to be with
25 respect to cross-examination of the witness and any reference
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1 to material which the government stated was classified. You
2 have read those.
3 MR. SCHMIDT: Yes.
4 THE COURT: Very well. We will proceed on that
5 basis, and if you have an application to make after you have
6 completed your cross and before resumption of redirect, if
7 there is to be any redirect, I will give you an opportunity to
8 address the court.
9 (Jury present)
10 THE COURT: Good morning. I hope you all enjoyed
11 your holiday weekend. You recall we are in the midst of the
12 reading of the grand jury questioning of the defendant El
13 Hage, and we will resume.
14 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, we are starting at page
15 167, line 9.
16 "Q. Have you ever been to Somalia?
17 "A. Yes.
18 "Q. Have you ever brought any money to Somalia?
19 "A. No.
20 "Q. Do you know Abu Talha, T-A-L-H-A-A, Sudani?
21 "A. Yes.
22 "Q. How do you know Abu Talha a Sudani?
23 "A. He was working also in the same company in Sudan.
24 "Q. What did he do for Bin Laden's company in the Sudan?
25 "A. Different jobs. He was a driver and he was marketing
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1 inside Sudan for the different products.
2 "Q. And did he fight in Afghanistan?
3 "A. I don't remember. I don't know.
4 "Q. Did he do any military work for Bin Laden?
5 "A. I don't know.
6 "Q. Do you know if Abu Talha a Sudani knew Azmarai?
7 "A. I don't know.
8 "Q. Did he know Abu Hajer?
9 "A. Yes.
10 "Q. How do you know Abu Talha knew Abu Hajer?
11 "A. We all were in the same company at the same time in
12 Khartoum.
13 "Q. Did you work on the same floor?
14 "A. It is only one floor.
15 "Q. Did Abu Talha ever go to Somalia, to your knowledge?
16 "A. I don't know.
17 "Q. Did you ever hear about Abu Talha going to Somalia?
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. Did you ever hear anyone indicate that Usama Bin Laden
20 was responsible for the US military people killed in Somalia
21 in 1993?
22 "A. In his last statement on the CNN, he said so.
23 "Q. Did you ever hear anyone else indicate that before?
24 "A. No.
25 "Q. Did you ever know if Abu Talha ever went to the
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1 Philippines?
2 "A. No.
3 "Q. Did you ever go to the Philippines?
4 "A. No.
5 "Q. Did you ever move weapons from one country to another?
6 "A. No.
7 "Q. Outside the United States, had you ever moved weapons
8 within a country?
9 "A. No.
10 "Q. Even a gun?
11 "A. Even a gun.
12 "Q. You carried a gun in Pakistan, right?
13 "A. Yes.
14 "Q. You carried a gun in Afghanistan?
15 "A. Yes.
16 "Q. Did you carry guns anywhere else?
17 "A. In the States, in Arizona.
18 "Q. How about the Sudan?
19 "A. No, never.
20 "Q. Have you ever carried explosives anywhere in the world?
21 "A. No.
22 "Q. Have you ever paid money to someone, understanding that
23 the money was being used for explosives?
24 "A. No.
25 "Q. You had a financial transaction with Bin Laden in the
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1 summer. When was the last financial transaction you had with
2 Bin Laden before the money he sent to you for the malaria
3 control project?
4 "A. There was only two times that he sent money. One time it
5 was $7,000, and this last time was $10,000.
6 "Q. And what did he send you the $7,000 for?
7 "A. Also a project.
8 "Q. And what project was that?
9 "A The needy people in Mombasa.
10 "Q. In Mombasa?
11 "A. Yes.
12 "Q. Who was the person -- did you take the money from Bin
13 Laden and give it to the needy people in Mombasa?
14 "A. It was transferred to my account in Kenya.
15 "Q. Then what did you do with the money?
16 "A. Transferred it for the needy people in Mombasa.
17 "Q. And who did you transfer it to?
18 "A. I went myself, me and Haroun, we went to Mombasa.
19 Q. And so you got a wire transfer from Usama Bin Laden to
20 your bank account in Kenya for $7,000 and then you took the
21 cash out?
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. And brought it to Mombasa?
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. Who did you give it to in Mombasa?
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1 "A. The needy people at the special event, Islamic event.
2 "Q. Even needy people have names. Do you have a name? You
3 gave it to someone.
4 "A. Didn't give it to one individual.
5 "Q. You handed it out?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Who were the partisans in Mombasa?
8 "A. Excuse me?
9 "Q. The partisans in Mombasa?
10 "A The partisans? I am sorry, I don't know what does that
11 mean. What does the word mean?
12 "Q. Were there people fighting in Mombasa?
13 "A. Fighting? No.
14 "Q. Have there been recent attacks in Mombasa against
15 tourists on the beach?
16 "A. No, not against tourists.
17 "Q. Who were the attacks against?
18 "A. It was ethnic fighting.
19 "Q. And who was fighting in the ethnic fighting in Mombasa?
20 "A. I don't know who was it. The government doesn't know.
21 Just says that bandits were attacking certain localities and
22 killing people. They don't even know what is the motive
23 behind it.
24 "Q. And when was it that you brought the $7,000 down to
25 Mombasa?
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1 "A. Sometime in 1996. I can't recall.
2 "Q. You just brought $7,000 in what currency?
3 "A. Kenyan shillings.
4 "Q. Kenyan shillings?
5 "A. Yes.
6 "Q. How did you hand it out? People showed up and you --
7 "A. Haroun knows the needy localities, and when went to
8 distribute it. Special --
9 "Q Sorry?
10 "A. It is a special.
11 "Q. And the end of Ramadan?
12 "A. In Ramadan, and we have two times every year.
13 "Q. Did you keep a record of who you gave the money to?
14 "A. No. Just depended on Haroun is known by the people over
15 there.
16 "Q. Do you know any of the names of the people in Mombasa
17 that Haroun indicated contact with in order to carry out this
18 giving away of money?
19 "A. I know someone called Sheikh Sayyid.
20 "Q. Sheikh Sayyid?
21 "A. Yes.
22 "Q. Where is Sheikh Sayyid from?
23 "A. Kenya.
24 "Q. Any other names?
25 "A. He is the famous person that I know over there.
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1 "Q. Do you know a Khalid over there in Mombasa?
2 "A. Khalid? It is either his son or his son-in-law.
3 "Q. Who is Khalid's son or son-in-law? Sheikh Sayyid?
4 "A. Yes.
5 "Q. Was there anything illegal about the $7,000 that you and
6 Haroun brought down to Mombasa?
7 "A. Anything illegal?
8 "Q. Yes.
9 "A No.
10 "Q Anything wrong with the $7,000 that you and Haroun
11 brought down to Mombasa?
12 "A. I don't understand. I don't think there was anything
13 illegal about it.
14 "Q. Were you at all worried about that $7,000 that you and
15 Haroun brought down to Mombasa?
16 "A. No. Why should we be worried?
17 "Q. Was Haroun worried?
18 "A. I don't think so, no. He was happy.
19 "Q. But when he heard that Madani Al Tayyib was talking to
20 the government authorities, was Haroun worried about his
21 contacts with the people in Mombasa?
22 "A. I don't know. I wasn't around when he knew about this.
23 I was in Pakistan then.
24 "Q. Did Haroun tell you that he broke off all contact with
25 the people in Mombasa after Madani al Tayyib turned up in the
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1 newspapers talking because he was afraid?
2 "A. He didn't tell me that. In fact, he went to Mombasa.
3 "Q. Hasn't come back since, correct?
4 "A. He came back when I came back. He went to Mombasa before
5 I came back, and then we -- when he knew I came back, he came
6 to Nairobi.
7 "Q. Where was he staying in Nairobi?
8 "A. I don't know, but I believe he would stay in the hotel in
9 Eastleigh.
10 "Q. Where would he usually stay when he worked for you all
11 that time in Nairobi?
12 "A. With me in my house.
13 "Q. When you last came back to Nairobi and he met him at your
14 friend's house, where did he stay then?
15 A. I don't know where he stayed, but he probably in a hotel,
16 like I said, in Eastleigh.
17 "Q. But he no longer stayed at your house?
18 "A. No, he was afraid.
19 "Q. Why was he afraid?
20 "A. Because he heard that the FBI people came over.
21 "Q. Now, when you were in Arizona, you knew Mubarak al
22 Dousri?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q D-O-U-S-R-I?
25 "A. D-O-O-R-Y.
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1 "Q. And did Mubarak el Doory from Arizona turn out later to
2 work for Usama Bin Laden?
3 "A. Yes, in his agricultural company in Sudan.
4 "Q. And when did he work for Usama Bin Laden in the Sudan?
5 "A. In '92.
6 "Q. And was he still working for Usama Bin Laden when you
7 left the Sudan in 1994?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. When was the last time you spoke with him?
10 "A. That year, '94.
11 "Q. When was the last time you saw him?
12 "A. That same year.
13 "Q. When you worked for Usama Bin Laden, in the Sudan, how
14 much were you paid?
15 "A. $1,200.
16 "Q. Per?
17 "A Per month.
18 "Q. For How long did you work for him?
19 "A. Almost two years.
20 "Q What banks did he keep his money at?
21 "A. Bank el Shamar.
22 "Q. Any other banks?
23 "A. I think he had accounts in different banks, but I only
24 recall Bank Shamar.
25 "Q. Did he keep any accounts in your name?
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1 "A. No, I had my own account.
2 "Q. The one at Girocredit in Vienna?
3 "A. No, no, in Sudan.
4 "Q. Your name?
5 "A. Yes.
6 "Q. That was for your money?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q Do you know Mohamed M-A-S-A-R-I?
9 "A. Yes.
10 "Q. Have you ever met him?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. Do you know where Mohamed al Masari lives?
13 "A. He lives in England.
14 "Q. Do you know if he works with Bin Laden?
15 "A. I don't.
16 "Q Do you know Saad al Faqih, F-A-Q-I-H?
17 "A. I don't know him but I know he works with al Masari.
18 "Q. Are you familiar with the Committee of the Defense of
19 Legitimate Rights, CDLR?
20 "A. I heard of it.
21 "Q. Do you know what its relationship is to Bin Laden?
22 "A. No, but they both are positioned against the Saudi
23 government.
24 "Q. Do you know if Bin Laden is a member of CDLR?
25 "A. I don't.
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1 "Q. Do you know Dr. Abdullah Muhammad Yusuf?
2 "A No.
3 "Q Do you know Inb al Qattab?
4 "A Ibn?
5 "Q Ibn al Qattab?
6 "A Al Qattab. Ibn al Qattab? I heard the name.
7 "Q Where did you hear it?
8 "A. In Pakistan.
9 "Q. From whom?
10 "A. Different people, I can't recall whom exactly.
11 "Q. Have you ever met him?
12 "A. I don't remember meeting him.
13 "Q. Do you know Assadalla, A-S-S-A-D-A-L-L-A, al Sindi?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. Where did you meet Assadalla al Sindi?
16 "A. I never met him, but I heard he works for Bin Laden.
17 "Q. What does he do for Bin Laden?
18 "A. I think business in Pakistan.
19 "Q. Business where?
20 "A. In Pakistan.
21 "Q. Pakistan?
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. Does he know Azmarai?
24 "A. I don't know. He probably does.
25 "Q. Have you ever met Assadalla al Sindi yourself?
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1 "A. No, never.
2 "Q. Do you know Mohamed Jamal Khalifah?
3 "A. No.
4 "Q. Do you know Mohamed Amin al Sanani, S-A-N-A-N-I?
5 "A. No.
6 "Q. Can you tell us what the al Baraka files are,
7 B-A-R-A-K-A?
8 "A. Al Baraka files?
9 "Q. Yes.
10 "A. I don't recall this name.
11 "Q. Do you recall maintaining the al Baraka files yourself?
12 "A. No, never.
13 "Q. Now, you have told this grand jury the last time you
14 dealt with Usama Bin Laden the last time you worked for him
15 was 1994.
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. That is the last time you have seen him?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. I am going to ask you again so that the record is crystal
20 clear that you have been warned, that to lie is punishable as
21 perjury which you can spend five years in jail. I want to be
22 crystal clear you understood what my questions are. I am
23 going to ask you again.
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. Have you seen Usama Bin Laden anyplace in the world in
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1 1995, 1996, or 1997?
2 "A. I haven't seen him anywhere after I left Sudan.
3 "Q. And after you left Sudan in what year?
4 "A. '94.
5 "Q. So it is your testimony that you have not seen Usama Bin
6 Laden anywhere in the world in 1995, 1996, or 997?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. And you have not told anyone that you have seen Usama Bin
9 Laden anywhere in the world in 1995, 1996 or 1997?
10 "A. Yes.
11 "Q. I would ask the grand jurors, the foreperson, if we could
12 tell Mr. El Hage that we would adjourn his testimony. I don't
13 know if we will have to follow up any further, but if he could
14 see stay under subpoena and if we need to call him back, the
15 foreperson can contact us and we will reach out and make the
16 appropriate arrangements.
17 "The foreperson: Do you understand?
18 "Q. What I am suggesting to the foreperson is we break for
19 the day, and if we decide we need further testimony from you,
20 we will schedule it at a mutually convenient time at our
21 expense. But if we need to bring you back, we don't need to
22 send someone to hand you a subpoena, we can call you up and
23 say please come back again. Do you understand that?
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. Does the foreperson so direct?
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1 "The Foreperson: You understood?
2 "A Yes.
3 "The Foreperson: You may be excused.
4 "Q. The last thing is, if there is any question you would
5 like to change the answer to right now, this is your chance to
6 do so.
7 "A Are we going to go over the questions?
8 "Q For whatever reason, if you came in here and told any
9 lies, this is your chance to tell us you would like to take
10 back an answer. Otherwise, the record will be sealed, and for
11 any false statements you could be prosecuted. So I am giving
12 you that answer.
13 "A No.
14 "Q OK, thank you.
15 "(Witness excused.)
16 "(Time noted, 3:44 p.m.
17 "(Colloquy follows.)
18 "Certificate. State of New York, County of New York.
19 I, Carey-Ann Rosenblatt hereby certify that the foregoing is a
20 true and accurate transcript, to the best of my skill and
21 ability from my stenographic notes of this proceeding.
22 Carey-Ann Rosenblatt, acting grand jury reporter."
23 THE COURT: Thank you.
24 MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Al-Fadl will be recalled to the
25 stand for cross-examination.
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1 THE COURT: Very well. You will recall that this
2 witness has testified on direct and has been cross-examined on
3 behalf of the defendants except the defendant El Hage, whose
4 attorney was ill. Mr. Schmidt has rejoined us and we will
5 proceed then with the cross-examination on behalf of the
6 defendant El Hage with the witness Jamal Ahmed Mohamed
7 al-Fadl.
8 JAMAL AHMED MOHAMED AL-FADL,
9 recalled as a witness by the government,
10 having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
11 THE COURT: Is there a stand-by interpreter?
12 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. Ms. Grant went to get the
13 interpreter. I have seen her with my own eyes. We can start
14 without her, but Ms. Grant went to get her.
15 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, I would prefer to have the
16 interpreter present.
17 MR. FITZGERALD: In case she is in the ladies' room,
18 I don't know if we could borrow one of the interpreters from
19 the back to start, if she is in the ladies' room.
20 THE COURT: Is there another interpreter available?
21 MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Coudoni seems to be coming.
22 (Andre Coudoni sworn as interpreter)
23 (Continued on next page)
24
25
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al-Fadl - cross
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. SCHMIDT:
3 Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, did I pronounce that correctly?
4 A. What?
5 Q. Did I pronounce the name correctly?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You began working in the Sudan for Mr. Bin Laden, is that
8 correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. What was the year that you first began doing work in the
11 Sudan for Mr. Bin Laden?
12 A. I believe end of '89, the first time I went to Sudan.
13 Q. That was the first time after going to Afghanistan that
14 you went to the Sudan, is that correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. You were born and raised in the Sudan, correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. You went from Afghanistan to Sudan at the bequest of
19 Mr. Bin Laden, is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What was your role? What did you do when you first went
22 to the Sudan in 1989?
23 A. I remember we, me and other brother we went over there and
24 we start to rent houses and establish companies for the group.
25 Q. In the Sudan back in 1989, was property required to be
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al-Fadl - cross
1 owned by Sudanese?
2 A. Which Sudanese?
3 Q. Were foreigners allowed to own property in the Sudan?
4 1989?
5 A. Yes. Some property buy with money and some property from
6 the government.
7 MR. SCHMIDT: Could you please interpret this
8 question, please.
9 Q. In 1989, were foreigners allowed to own property in the
10 Sudan? (Interpreted)
11 A. I don't know the government rule, but we have agreement
12 between the group and the government. That's how he got the
13 land.
14 Q. The properties that were first rented or purchased were in
15 names of Sudanese, isn't that correct?
16 A. Yes, under my name.
17 Q. Are you aware that the Sudanese law required that property
18 be held in the name of Sudanese businesses or persons?
19 A. Well, I rent it and some lands I bought it, and I think
20 that's the law.
21 MR. SCHMIDT: Can you translate my question.
22 Q. Were you aware that Sudanese law required that property be
23 held under the name of Sudanese or Sudanese businesses?
24 (Interpreted)
25 A. (Through interpreter) Investment law permits that.
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al-Fadl - cross
1 Q. Permits what?
2 A. To buy land or houses or farms.
3 Q. Under the names of Sudanese persons or businesses, is that
4 correct?
5 A. Under Sudanese, but for foreign people, no.
6 Q. For foreign use, but under the names of Sudanese persons
7 or businesses, is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How long did you remain in the Sudan when you first went
10 over in 1989 to purchase or lease properties or start
11 businesses?
12 A. I don't remember exactly, but I back and forth between
13 Sudan and Pakistan, different times.
14 Q. What year was it when you moved back to the Sudan with
15 Mr. Bin Laden?
16 A. When he come back from Pakistan to Sudan, I didn't come
17 with him.
18 Q. You remained in Afghanistan?
19 A. Yes. I went Sudan and I come back to Pakistan, because
20 once in a while I go back and I tell him what going on in
21 Sudan.
22 Q. When did you return to the Sudan to live?
23 A. Like I tell you, I go back and forth between Sudan and
24 Pakistan.
25 Q. There came a time that you stopped going back and forth
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al-Fadl - cross
1 from Afghanistan and Sudan and you stopped and you started to
2 live in Sudan again. When was that?
3 A. Yes. I live in Sudan I think in '91, I went back to
4 Pakistan, I come back again and in '92 I went back to Pakistan
5 and I come back again.
6 Q. In 1991, how long did you go back to Pakistan?
7 A. Not more than two weeks.
8 Q. In 1992, how long did you go to Pakistan?
9 A. It could be week or 10 days.
10 Q. So other than these short trips, you lived in the Sudan,
11 is that correct?
12 A. Correct, yes.
13 Q. When was it that you started to live in the Sudan, not
14 counting the short trips to Pakistan?
15 A. It's hard to say because I'm always traveling. I live in
16 Sudan but always I go outside to Egypt, to Pakistan, to other
17 countries, and I come back to Sudan.
18 Q. Did Mr. Bin Laden buy you a house when you returned to the
19 Sudan?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What year did he buy you a house?
22 A. I think that's in '92.
23 Q. And that was for you and your wife, is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Between 1989 and end of 1991, what jobs were you doing for
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al-Fadl - cross
1 Mr. Bin Laden?
2 A. I switched from other things. Like sometime I work from
3 one, sometimes I work -- I don't have like one job. So I
4 switch from different companies, different jobs.
5 Q. Are you telling us that you worked for one company for one
6 week and then you went to another company for another week and
7 another association?
8 A. Yes sometimes tell me to do that job, go to Qadarif. I do
9 the trip. Sometimes tell me to go to Damazine and Umduhrman.
10 Q. Mr. Fadl, you testified on direct examination at some
11 point that you worked in an office at McNimr Street, is that
12 correct?
13 A. That's correct, yes.
14 Q. When did you actually start sitting in an office and doing
15 work in an office?
16 A. Since the first time I went to Sudan end of '89 and we
17 established Wadi al Aqiq company.
18 Q. After you started the company, helped start the companies,
19 helped lease property, were you based out of the office at
20 McNimr Street?
21 A. Yes, I have office over there.
22 Q. Were you paid a salary through one of the companies in
23 McNimr Street?
24 A. From Laden International Company and Taba Investment, and
25 also I got another salary from the group.
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1 Q. No matter which company you were actually doing work
2 for --
3 A. I work for all the companies.
4 Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, please let me finish my question. No matter
5 which company you were actually doing work for, you were being
6 paid from the Taba or Laden International, is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So if you went on a trip for one of the agricultural
9 companies, you still would get the check, or the money from
10 Taba, say, is that correct?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. In 1989, you purchased, you helped others lease property,
13 bought property, started businesses; is that your testimony?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Other than doing these trips that you said, what other
16 kind of work did you do in 1989, 1990, and 1991?
17 A. One time I did trip to Egypt from Pakistan.
18 Q. What else?
19 A. I work inside Sudan. I went to the Damazine Camp, over
20 there. I buy sesame and beans from Khartoum Bari City. I
21 work in Damazine. I got Islamic training in Soba farm for
22 three weeks. I got refresh training also in Tajj al Sirr
23 Mustafa's guesthouse.
24 Q. Did there come a time that you became an assistant to a
25 person that you call Abu Makkee, whose real name is Madani Al
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1 Tayyib?
2 A. Yes, Madani al Tayyib Abu Fadhl al Makkee.
3 Q. I am going to call him Madani Tayyib. You know what I am
4 talking about?
5 A. OK.
6 Q. When did you become an assistant to Mr. al Tayyib?
7 A. First time I see him? Is this your question?
8 Q. When did you become a business assistant to Mr. al Tayyib?
9 A. First time I work with him in Afghanistan in '89.
10 Q. Mr. al Tayyib was running one of the companies in the
11 Sudan, is that correct?
12 A. He is a supervisor for the whole business in Sudan, when
13 he moved to Sudan.
14 Q. Did you become an assistant to him in the Sudan?
15 A. Yes, I work under him.
16 Q. What year did you become an assistant to Mr. al Tayyib in
17 the Sudan?
18 A. Maybe this area of '91.
19 Q. Prior to becoming the business assistant to Mr. al Tayyib,
20 did you serve, other than what you mentioned, any other
21 function in the Bin Laden companies?
22 A. Yes, I do other stuff.
23 Q. For example?
24 A. Like sometimes they tell me go to Pakistan, take this
25 message.
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1 Q. OK.
2 A. I go Pakistan. Sometimes --
3 Q. In the Sudan --
4 THE COURT: He hadn't finished his answer when you
5 cut him off.
6 A. Madani Tayyib, he is a businessman, he runs the companies,
7 but at the same time he work in the group. Sometimes he give
8 me business work, sometimes he tell me go get training.
9 Sometimes he tell me those new people, go interview him.
10 Sometimes he tell me go to Abu Abdallah Lubnani, we need
11 Islamic training. So whatever he tell me, he is my manager
12 business, and at the same time he is my emir under the group.
13 Q. I am saying, between 1989, first time you came back to the
14 Sudan and to the time that you became the special assistant to
15 Mr. al Tayyib, have you basically told us every kind of work
16 that you did in the Sudan for Mr. Bin Laden?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How long did you work as a special assistant to Mr. al
19 Tayyib?
20 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form.
21 A. Like I tell you --
22 THE COURT: Just a moment.
23 MR. FITZGERALD: Just objection to form.
24 THE COURT: Restate your question.
25 MR. SCHMIDT: Could we have it read back, please?
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1 THE COURT: Yes.
2 (Record read)
3 MR. FITZGERALD: The same objection to form, to
4 special.
5 THE COURT: To the special. Objection as to your
6 objection to describing special assistant as a term the
7 witness is not familiar with.
8 Q. Have you described everything that you did in Sudan from
9 the time that you returned to the Sudan in 1989 until the time
10 you became an assistant to Mr. al Tayyib?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When you were working for Mr. al Tayyib, did you handled
13 commercial business?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you tell us some of the products that were involved
16 in the commercial business.
17 A. I arrange guesthouses, I buy farms and license for the
18 companies. I help people for traveling.
19 Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, were there certain products that Mr. al
20 Tayyib and Taba were trying to sell or grow to sell?
21 A. Yes. We sell sugar and palm oil and soap, we exchange
22 foreign, the local bonds to foreign. We buy peanuts and
23 sesame, sunflower.
24 Q. There were farms that produced agricultural products, is
25 that correct?
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1 A. Yes, in Damazine.
2 Q. Where were the tractors obtained?
3 A. Could you repeat the question.
4 Q. Where were the tractors obtained from?
5 A. The tractors?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. In the farm, in Damazine.
8 Q. Where were the tractors purchased from?
9 A. Where we buy from?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. I remember Abu Rida al Suri, he buy them from
12 Czechoslovakia.
13 Q. Were there trucks used, both the construction company and
14 the agricultural companies?
15 A. We have contract transportation. It's a company just run
16 the tractors.
17 Q. Were the trucks purchased from Russia?
18 A. Yes, from, I forget the name of the company now.
19 Q. Maz?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is that the name?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who went to purchase the trucks?
24 A. I don't remember, but I think Abu Rida al Suri and
25 Abdallah Lubnani.
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1 Q. One of the products that were grown by one of Mr. Bin
2 Laden's companies was sesame, is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And there was great effort made to sell the sesame
5 throughout the world, is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. There was also white corn grown, is that correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Peanuts were grown, is that correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Sunflowers were grown, is that correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Wheat was grown, is that correct?
14 A. She help me. I don't know what that mean. (Interpreted)
15 Yes.
16 Q. And there was a whole bunch of fruits and vegetables grown
17 from one of the other companies, is that right? Blessed
18 Fruits, is that it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was there olive oil produced?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Was there other kinds of oil produced?
23 A. Yes, from sesame and peanuts.
24 Q. This is the early years we are talking about, 1990, 1991,
25 right, '92?
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1 A. '93, '94.
2 Q. Part of your job and other people's job when you were
3 working for Mr. al Tayyib was trying to find markets for these
4 items, is that right?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And later on the items also included skins from the
7 tannery, is that right?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. There were fava beans, is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. There was also -- now let's talk a little bit about the
12 different companies that formed Mr. Bin Laden's enterprises.
13 A. OK.
14 Q. There were some local companies, like a bakery, is that
15 right?
16 A. What?
17 Q. He had a bakery?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. He had the fruit and vegetable export company, is that
20 correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. He had a Bank of Zoological Resource?
23 (Interpreted)
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. That was to basically raise cattle?
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1 A. Yes, make good genes.
2 Q. And he invested quite a bit of money to try and raise good
3 cattle and make hybrids.
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. How many people worked at the fruit and vegetable company?
6 A. It's run by somebody, his name Motasem al Saudi, but I
7 don't know how many people.
8 Q. Do you know how many people worked at the Bank of
9 Zoological Resource?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you know how many people worked at the bakery?
12 A. No.
13 Q. How many people worked at Laden International?
14 A. Maybe around 25 in that office in McNimr Street.
15 Q. How many people worked at the Altehmar al Mabuaraka,
16 A-L-T-H-E-M-A-R, A-L, M-A-B-U-A-R-A-K-A?
17 A. A lot of people. They got few people in office in
18 Khartoum and people in the farm at Damazine.
19 Q. How about Blessed Fruits? A lot of people worked there?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you know how many?
22 A. No.
23 Q. What about Taba?
24 A. Taba and Laden and Qudurat Transportation, 25 people work
25 in office.
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1 Q. How about the International al-Ikhlas Company, A-L,
2 capital I-K-H-L-A-S?
3 A. Al-Ikhlas, in the office I think it's around 10 people do
4 the business in the office.
5 Q. They manufactured sweets and honey, is that right?
6 A. Yes. The factory in Kameen, not in Khartoum.
7 Q. Al-Ikhlas was the main company, mother company, the main
8 company that owned most the of the other companies, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Mother company.
11 How many people worked in just the offices involving
12 al-Ikhlas?
13 A. Bin Laden himself, Sharif al Deen -- I think it could be
14 around 15 or 20.
15 Q. Wadi al Aqiq is a name of a company, has nothing to do
16 with Wadih El Hage, is that correct?
17 A. Could you repeat.
18 Q. The name Wadih El Hage has nothing to do with Wadi al
19 Aqiq, is that correct?
20 A. No, I believe it's valley in Saudi Arabia belong to Bin
21 Laden.
22 Q. How many people worked at the tanning company?
23 A. I don't know. It's a lot of people. It's a big tannery.
24 Q. There was a furniture company making furniture, wasn't
25 there?
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1 A. Correct.
2 Q. How many people worked at the furniture company?
3 A. A lot.
4 Q. At the construction company, al Hijra? That was over 600
5 people who worked there, right?
6 A. Or could be more.
7 Q. Could be more. And they built a number of roads.
8 A. Roads and bridge and yes.
9 Q. You mentioned a few of them.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. They also built a road from Khartoum to Port Sudan, is
12 that right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. That was one of the major projects that was here.
15 A. Yes. It's a major history in Sudan.
16 Q. You became aware that there were sanctions against the
17 Sudan, international sanctions.
18 A. Yes, I hear that.
19 Q. You know that made trade more difficult from the Sudan to
20 countries in Europe and North America, is that right?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Therefore it reduced the value of the Sudanese pound.
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. So it was important for the companies to try to do what
25 they can to export products that they produced into Europe and
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1 America, is that right?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. To do that, sometimes they had to ship their products
4 through other countries, is that right?
5 A. Yes, correct.
6 Q. One of the most popular companies to ship these items was
7 Cyprus, is that right?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Because that was a free port, is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. There was no al Qaeda activity in Cyprus, it was just
12 business activity in Cyprus; isn't that right?
13 A. I believe we got guesthouse but we got company, office
14 running the business.
15 Q. That is because if you exported through Cyprus, the value
16 of the product would increase tremendously.
17 A. Yes, make more money.
18 Q. You have told us that tractors were purchased in
19 Czechoslovakia and trucks were purchased in Russia, is that
20 right?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. One of the reasons that they were purchased in the eastern
23 European countries was that it was much cheaper to purchase
24 items in the eastern European countries than they would be in
25 the western European countries or in the United States, is
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1 that correct?
2 A. Yes, cheaper, and they give them more time for paying.
3 Q. So for the business enterprises involved in the Bin Laden
4 companies, there was a lot of travel not only to western
5 Europe but to eastern Europe and other countries where items
6 could be purchased cheaper.
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. You are Sudanese, is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You had a Sudanese passport, is that correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Traveling through western Europe or to the United States
13 or even to the Far East was somewhat difficult for you because
14 you had a Sudanese passport, is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. People who had either European, western European passports
17 or American passports were table able to travel much easier,
18 is that correct?
19 A. Yes, much, much easier.
20 Q. Therefore it was less expensive for them to travel, is
21 that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. They were able to do business faster because of those
24 passports, is that correct?
25 A. Correct.
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1 Q. They were more valuable to the Bin Laden businesses
2 because they were able to travel easily.
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. For commercial purposes to either buy goods like the
5 tractors or to sell goods like sesame and the skins and those
6 items, is that right?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Sudan is a poor country, isn't it?
9 A. Very poor.
10 Q. The average income is about $50 a month for the average
11 Sudanese?
12 A. No, I think it's much less.
13 Q. And there are a lot of things that aren't produced in
14 Sudan if you want to run a business that you have to purchase
15 outside of the Sudan, is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So either you or Abu Rida or other people -- withdrawn.
18 Abu Rida had an American passport, didn't he?
19 A. I hear that, yes.
20 Q. Do you know who Abu Khadija is?
21 A. I think he got German citizen.
22 Q. People like him would travel to eastern Europe and western
23 Europe to try to get the best things that were needed that had
24 to be imported into the Sudan, is that right?
25 A. Right.
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1 Q. There was cement that was needed?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. There was asphalt that was needed. There was fertilizer
4 for the farms that were needed.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. People also would come up with ideas, maybe we can --
7 withdrawn.
8 Taba was a company that sold things inside of the
9 Sudan, is that right?
10 A. Yes, the local stuff.
11 Q. And for it to make money, you would have to get it at a
12 lower price and then sell it at a higher price, is that right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And then, since the Sudan is a very poor country, you have
15 to make sure you get a real low price for these items because
16 otherwise you will not be able to sell them in Sudan, is that
17 right?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. So part of the travel of these people who had either
20 European or American passports was to see if they could do
21 trading, buying something in another country that is less
22 expensive and selling it in the Sudan at a relatively cheap
23 price to make a profit, is that right?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. There came a time that you left working as an assistant
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1 for Mr. al Tayyib and you became, you started to work for Abu
2 Rida, R-I-D-A, is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Since you started working as an assistant sometime in 1992
5 for Mr. al Tayyib, you worked about a year for Mr. al Tayyib
6 as his assistant, is that correct?
7 A. It could be more.
8 Q. When do you think that you went to work for Abu Rida as
9 his assistant?
10 A. I worked with Abu Rida and I come back to al Tayyib. So I
11 left Tayyib I go to Rida and go back to al Tayyib. I go do
12 other stuff and go back to Tayyib.
13 Q. Did you work about seven months for Mr. Abu Rida?
14 A. Not in his office for seven months, but any time he want
15 me to go, I do the job for him and I come back.
16 Q. At the time that you went, you were freed up to work for
17 Mr. Abu Rida when Mr. El Hage came to the Sudan, is that
18 right?
19 A. I don't know what you talk about, Hage.
20 Q. Mr. El Hage, Wadih El Hage who is sitting over there.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. He came near the end of 1992, is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you helped train him to do the trading aspects that
25 you were doing for Mr. al Tayyib, is that right?
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1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Once he was trained, you were able to do some work for
3 Mr. Abu Rida, is that right?
4 A. Yes, you are right.
5 Q. In fact, Mr. El Hage -- withdrawn.
6 Abu Rida was doing a lot of traveling because he had
7 an American passport, is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. After Mr. El Hage was trained about the commodities, he
10 started doing a lot of traveling instead of Abu Rida, is that
11 right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So therefore Mr. El Hage ended up being out of the
14 country, out of the Sudan quite a bit doing the traveling that
15 Abu Rida was doing before.
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And you were working mostly for Abu Rida at that time. If
18 there was nothing in particular you might go back and help out
19 Mr. al Tayyib, is that right?
20 A. Yes, I go back to Tayyib or I go to other stuff.
21 Q. There was also an Abu Dijana who came in.
22 A. Yes, Abu Dijana Abdallah al Yemeni.
23 Q. And he came in and was trained by you as well, is that
24 right?
25 A. With Sayyid el Masry and Bushra Yasin. Other people also
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1 train him.
2 Q. So he was not traveling that much, he was mostly in the
3 office, is that right?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. So by early 1993, Mr. El Hage was doing a lot of traveling
6 out of the country concerning selling things like the corn,
7 the sesame seeds, hibiscus, right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And other items that they were trying to produce in the
10 Sudan, is that right?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. He was also doing a lot of traveling to obtain more
13 tractors, is that right?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And other items like asphalt or cement or pricing other
16 items that might be useful to make money in the Sudan, is that
17 right?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. So he wasn't around that much in 1993 because he was doing
20 most of the traveling for Taba and Laden International, is
21 that right?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. In fact, after you trained Mr. El Hage, you didn't see him
24 very much in the business. You were doing different things,
25 right?
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1 A. Yes, you are right.
2 Q. I want to mention some other items that Mr. El Hage and
3 other workers at Laden International or Taba were involved
4 either trying to obtain or sell. Bananas?
5 A. Yes in Kassala City.
6 Q. Butcher equipment? (Translated)
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Canned mushrooms and canned tomatoes?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Cement?
11 A. Yes, from outside, you are right, we bring it from
12 outside.
13 Q. A deal to try and produce, to make a cheese factory?
14 A. I don't remember this.
15 Q. There was machines that needed to be purchased to crush
16 rock?
17 A. For the Qudurat Construction?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. There was discussions about purchasing iron?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Insecticides?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Lathing machines?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Lemons?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Olives?
4 A. I don't remember olives.
5 Q. Raisins, nuts, hazelnuts and almonds?
6 A. I don't remember.
7 Q. From Tajikistan? Does that ring a bell?
8 A. I really don't remember.
9 Q. There was discussion about building a rice mill?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. There was always businesses involving sugar, is that
12 right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. The sugar was produced both inside Sudan, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. There was also discussions of importing sugar as well?
17 A. Yes, local and import, yes.
18 Q. And there was talk about wood, obtaining wood from Turkey?
19 A. Yes, I remember.
20 Q. There was an awful lot of business going on in the Bin
21 Laden businesses, wasn't there?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. After Mr. El Hage and Mr. Dijana came in, working in Taba,
24 there came a time about a year later in 1994 where you left
25 your employments with Mr. Bin Laden, is that correct?
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1 A. No, I don't leave the group in 1994.
2 Q. Didn't you go work for a research institute?
3 A. A delegation office.
4 Q. Didn't you call that a research institute?
5 A. We call it delegation office.
6 Q. Wasn't that a Sudanese company that was not affiliated
7 with Mr. Bin Laden?
8 A. This is, it's office helped the people when the other
9 groups come to Sudan, we interview them and we make sure they
10 are good people.
11 Q. Do you know the name of Amin Hassan Omer, A-M-I-N,
12 H-A-S-S-A-N, O-M-E-R? It may be O-M-A-R. Amin Hassan Omer.
13 Do you know that name?
14 A. No, I don't remember.
15 Q. Do you know who was the legal security adviser to
16 President Basheer in 1994?
17 A. Could you repeat the question.
18 MR. SCHMIDT: Could you translate that, please. Do
19 you know the name of the person who was the legal security
20 adviser to President Basheer in 1994?
21 A. Yes. His al Tayef. I don't remember his whole name but I
22 remember his family name al Tayef.
23 Q. Didn't you go work for him in 1994?
24 A. No. Delegation office, they got different manager. His
25 name Dr. Motrif Sadeek.
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1 Q. We will come back to this. At some point you started
2 working at the company called al Sargani.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. That company was a company where all of the shareholders
5 were relatives of yours, is that correct?
6 A. Sargani belong to Islamic National Front but it's owned by
7 me, but we use it as umbrella for other work.
8 Q. When you use the term Islamic National Front, that was the
9 political party of Sudan that was in power, is that correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. The person at that time who was the president of Sudan was
12 a man named Basheer, is that correct?
13 A. Could you repeat your question.
14 Q. The president of the country of Sudan back in 1994 was
15 President Basheer.
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. The person who headed the party, what you call the Islamic
18 National Front, was a man named al Turabi.
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. It was known that Mr. Al Turabi basically was the power
21 behind the government, is that correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. You used Islamic National Front. Is it sometimes the
24 initials NIF used?
25 A. Yes, NIF.
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1 Q. So if I use the expression NIF, you will know what I am
2 talking about?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Al Sargani was an NIF company, is that correct?
5 A. Yes, it's umbrella company.
6 Q. You told us that Sheikh Sayyid el Masry came into the
7 offices at McNimr Street on June 9, 1993, is that correct?
8 A. I don't remember the month, but it could be June '93.
9 Q. You testified on direct examination not just to the month,
10 you gave the specific date, June --
11 A. I don't remember now. If I say at that time, yes,
12 correct.
13 Q. Is there a reason why you remember a specific date on
14 direct examination while Mr. Fitzgerald was examining you and
15 now you don't even remember a month?
16 A. No, it's just human, you know. Sometimes you ask me a
17 question, I don't remember it.
18 Q. You left the Sudan the last time in February of 1996, is
19 that correct?
20 A. Yes, in February '96.
21 Q. You traveled to quite a few places. Is that right?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. You were traveling -- first you went to Syria because that
24 simply was the easiest place to go, is that right?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. You went to Jordan?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. You went to see a man that you said was a member of al
4 Qaeda, Abu Ahram.
5 A. Abu Ahram al Urdani.
6 Q. He was a member of al Qaeda?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You told us that you left the Sudan because you were
9 worried because you stole money and couldn't pay it back,
10 right?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. You were also concerned with the NIF, isn't that right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. You spent time talking with Abu Ahram, is that right?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. You felt comfortable talking to Abu Ahram, right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. He was no threat to you, was he?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You began your journeys trying to start an opposition
21 party to the NIF, is that right?
22 A. I don't understand the question.
23 Q. Would you translate it. You tried to start an opposition
24 to the NIF, is that right? (Interpreted)
25 A. Not exactly what you say. I am mad with him, but, you
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1 know, I don't have money to start making group -- I don't have
2 enough money, I make.
3 Q. You didn't have enough money to start an opposition party?
4 A. I don't have thinking about that. It never come in my
5 mind like that. But they make me mad and I left Sudan and I
6 really hate them.
7 Q. You had many, many conversations at the end of 1996 with
8 agents of the United States government, is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You spent about 30 days or so from September and October
11 and November talking to agents of the United States?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. In one of the conversations with these agents, didn't you
14 tell them that you hoped that the US government would help you
15 establish an intellectual opposition party against the NIF?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You did not have any money when you started your travels
18 in February, so you were trying to raise money.
19 A. The first thing I did in Syria, I went to United Nations,
20 and I tell them I have problems my government, and they give
21 me every two weeks some money from United Nations in Syria.
22 Q. The money was just enough to live on and not to start an
23 opposition party, right?
24 A. Yes, just for food and living.
25 Q. You were looking to raise money to support yourself and to
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1 form an opposition party in the Sudan, isn't that right?
2 A. Yes, just like anybody, you know, he try to make his
3 country best.
4 Q. You went to Damascus and from there you went to Jordan,
5 right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In Jordan you actually tried to go to Israel to see if you
8 could convince the Israelis to give you money, isn't that
9 right?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. That's how much you hated the NIF, that you would go to
12 the Israelis.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. But you didn't go to Israel, you went to Lebanon instead,
15 is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you tried to see if you could sell a book about the
18 NIF.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. But you decided not to, because you were afraid the
21 publisher was a greedy person and you wouldn't get your share,
22 right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You went back to Damascus and put in an application for
25 refugee status, is that right?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You were told that was the only place you could do it
3 because it was the first place you went to from Sudan, right?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. You weren't very interested in staying in Damascus.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You were or were not?
8 A. Would you repeat the question.
9 Q. Were you interested or not interested in staying in
10 Damascus?
11 A. No, because there are a lot of NIF over there.
12 Q. You went to Asmarai in Eritrea.
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. There there were a number of Sudanese opposition people,
15 is that right?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And you talked with them over there, is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You discussed with them what the best way would be for you
20 to be used to help the opposition.
21 A. They ask me, yes.
22 Q. But nobody wanted to give you money to fund your own
23 opposition, did they?
24 A. No, they say if you want to share, come work with us, you
25 don't have money.
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1 Q. You didn't want to do that?
2 A. No, I am very interested to work with them, but.
3 Q. You went to the Eritrean government to try to convince
4 them to support you, is that right?
5 A. No, just like any Sudanese, when he go over there, he
6 should go to the office, support the all Sudanese opposition
7 activity. So I am just like other people.
8 Q. You didn't just go over to the government of Eritrea to
9 support the opposition, you went and made videotapes and
10 cassette tapes?
11 A. No, just for the government, for organization human
12 rights.
13 Q. But you didn't stay there, you got a trip to Saudi Arabia,
14 is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You talked to the Saudi Arabians, is that right?
17 A. Which Saudi Arabia?
18 Q. You talked with Saudi Arabians?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Saudis, right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In Saudi Arabia, you talked more now about Mr. Bin Laden
23 because you knew that the Saudis were trying to stop Mr. Bin
24 Laden, is that right?
25 A. They was asking me so many questions and I am very happy
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1 at that time to answer the questions, and one of the questions
2 about Bin Laden.
3 Q. Not only was one of the questions Bin Laden, you gave the
4 Saudis a proposal to assassinate Mr. Bin Laden, didn't you?
5 A. Well, any questions they ask me, I give them answer.
6 Q. So when they asked you how the best way to murder or
7 assassinate Mr. Bin Laden, you came up with a plan and gave it
8 to the Saudi government, is that right?
9 A. I don't have plan but when they ask me that question, I
10 give them what I know.
11 Q. It wasn't what you know, it was what you would do.
12 A. What I know, because I was in group before.
13 Q. Didn't you tell the Americans when you ultimately went to
14 the Americans a little bit about your conversation with the
15 Saudis?
16 A. Of course, yes.
17 Q. When you told them, didn't you tell the Americans that you
18 proposed a plan that Bin Laden should be liquidated by the Abu
19 Nisab group, belonging to your relative Mohammed Suda al
20 Nalfi?
21 A. Yes, I remember that.
22 Q. You had a plan, isn't that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. But you ended up leaving the Saudis because they didn't
25 offer you any money.
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1 A. No, they tell me go to Azmarai and wait over there and
2 somebody going to start working for you over there, and they
3 say could be take two weeks or three weeks. And they tell me
4 go to the embassy, and they give me name, but I decide to go
5 to the American Embassy.
6 Q. Didn't you complain that they offered you no reward for
7 all this information?
8 A. No, they say when that guy, he want to come in Azmarai, he
9 going to start with you and he want to help you.
10 Q. Didn't you say that you were worried about the opposition
11 party, the particular opposition party that brought you to
12 Saudi Arabia was going to try to take the reward for the
13 Saudis and keep it for themselves and you not get anything;
14 isn't that right?
15 A. At that time I work for the Sudanese group as a member.
16 Q. And you thought they were going to take the reward from
17 the Saudis that you earned, isn't that right?
18 A. Yes, I think about that.
19 Q. So after having no other place who was willing to meet
20 your demands you finally go as a last resort to the Americans,
21 is that right?
22 A. No, when I come back from Saudi Arabia, they say wait in
23 Azmarai two weeks or three weeks, but I decide after three
24 days if I go to Americans maybe it's better, because Saudis
25 they want me to work outside, they want me to go to Pakistan,
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1 and I tell them that's really hard.
2 Q. You knew you were not going to work with the Saudis, is
3 that right?
4 A. Yes, I tell them I know it's very hard. When they ask me
5 it's hard.
6 Q. You didn't trust them, did you?
7 A. I trust them very much but I don't trust the plan. I
8 don't trust what they want me to do.
9 Q. Did you tell the American agents that you did not trust
10 the Saudis?
11 A. I don't trust the plan, not personally.
12 Q. Didn't you say flat out to the Americans, I do not trust
13 the Saudis?
14 A. What I mean, the plan, not the people.
15 Q. So you did tell the Americans that you did not trust the
16 Saudis but you are explaining now that that didn't mean I did
17 not trust the Saudis, I didn't trust their plan. Is that what
18 you say?
19 A. There is millions of people. That not means I don't trust
20 the people. I don't trust the people I saw when I went to my
21 trip.
22 Q. The people that you saw were high members of the
23 government of Saudi Arabia, is that right?
24 A. Yes. I don't trust the plan.
25 Q. You don't trust the government of Saudi Arabia, not the
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1 people --
2 A. No, that's not correct, because the government thousands
3 of people. It's hard to say that.
4 Q. Did you say to the Americans I don't trust the Saudis,
5 meaning the Saudi government officials that you were dealing
6 with?
7 A. No, the people I saw. I saw only few peoples from the
8 government.
9 Q. Wasn't one a minister?
10 A. What?
11 Q. Wasn't one a minister of the government?
12 A. It's few people from intelligence office.
13 Q. You didn't trust the Egyptians, did you?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Not at all.
16 A. No, I never work with them.
17 Q. If anything, anybody who was up in Afghanistan during the
18 Afghani jihad did not want to go trust the Egyptians, right?
19 A. You are right.
20 Q. So the Egyptians you weren't going to. The Saudi you
21 didn't trust, right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The Yemenis you didn't trust, right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You had been to Eritrea, and you didn't trust them, right?
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1 A. I feel, but when I went to Americans --
2 Q. The Eritreans are a very poor country?
3 A. Very good.
4 Q. Nice people but poor country?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. They weren't giving you a lot of money, you didn't want to
7 live the lifestyle of the Eritreans, did you?
8 A. I am not looking for money.
9 Q. You didn't want to stay in Syria, right?
10 A. Yes, because lot of NIF membership in Syria and Syria got
11 great relationship.
12 Q. You considered going to Israel, didn't you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Bottom line, there was no other place to go to other than
15 the Americans. The last place that you were going to try to
16 get what you wanted was from the Americans, right?
17 A. Yes, I decide to go to America.
18 Q. When you decided to go to America, you came to them as a
19 Sudanese dissident, somebody who was opposing the present
20 government in the Sudan, right?
21 A. I don't understand that.
22 Q. When you went to see the Americans at the embassy, you
23 went there as a person who opposed the NIF in the Sudan,
24 right? (Interpreted)
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. You knew that the Americans had no diplomatic
2 relationships with the Sudan at that time, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. The Sudanese didn't like the Americans for what they were
5 doing to the Sudanese, right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And the Americans didn't like the Sudanese, what they
8 thought the Sudanese were doing to the rest of the world.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When you started talking to the Americans, the Americans
11 weren't particularly interested in all of the political goings
12 on in Sudan, were they?
13 A. They ask me questions and I give them the answer and I
14 wait until they --
15 Q. What they were interested in was Mr. Bin Laden, wasn't it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You realized that very quickly into your conversation with
18 these Americans, didn't you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you knew that if you were going to get what you wanted
21 or needed from the Americans, you needed to answer their
22 questions about Bin Laden, right?
23 A. Could you repeat your question.
24 MR. SCHMIDT: Please translate this.
25 Q. You knew very quickly that if you were going to get what
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1 you wanted from the Americans, you were going to have to
2 answer their questions about Bin Laden.
3 (Interpreted)
4 A. Yes. What I know, I work with Bin Laden nine years. It's
5 history.
6 Q. You told them some things that simply were lies, is that
7 right?
8 A. No.
9 Q. No? Did you tell them --
10 A. I work with Bin Laden nine years.
11 Q. Did you tell the Americans in the first or second year
12 that you trained with Ramzi Yusef?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Ramzi Yusef at that time was in the United States and was
15 going to trial for some kind of terrorist activity, right?
16 A. No, not because that, because we in Afghanistan, I saw him
17 in the camp, we train, and that's right.
18 Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, you volunteered to the Americans, saying that
19 you trained with Ramzi Yusef.
20 A. No, not because he's news but because I know the guy from
21 Afghanistan.
22 Q. And you knew that the Americans were interested in Ramzi
23 Yusef, didn't you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you know they were?
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1 A. No, not because interested, it's what I know. It's nine
2 years with those people.
3 Q. Isn't it a fact that you never ever met the man?
4 A. Yes, we are in -- I don't remember the camp now but I
5 remember in Afghanistan, near the border between Pakistan and
6 Afghanistan, we got camp over there, and at that time run by
7 Ibrahim al Rari, and I saw the guy over there and he got
8 trained over there.
9 Q. Didn't you tell the United States agents on October 22,
10 1996, that you never actually seen Ramzi Ahmed Yusef?
11 A. What I tell them, I see the guy in south camp in the
12 border between Afghanistan and Pakistan and the camp is named
13 Sada camp.
14 Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, on October 22, 1996, did you tell the
15 American agents that you never actually seen Ramzi Ahmed
16 Yusef?
17 A. No, I don't remember I tell them that. Maybe somebody
18 type it wrong or somebody, he not understand what I am talking
19 about, but I saw the guy in Sada camp in the border of the
20 camp between Afghanistan and Pakistan.
21 Q. I am going to show you page 150 of what is marked 3501-45.
22 Do you read English?
23 A. A little bit.
24 Q. I want you to read the second and third sentence in this,
25 and you tell me if this refreshes your recollection.
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1 A. OK.
2 THE COURT: Understand, the question isn't what it
3 says on that document. The question is whether seeing that it
4 refreshes your recollection as to what you said. Do you
5 understand that difference?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
7 MR. SCHMIDT: May I approach the witness?
8 THE COURT: Yes.
9 (Document translated)
10 A. The group --
11 THE COURT: No. You are asked a question that calls
12 for a yes or no answer. The question is whether reading that
13 refreshes your recollection as to what you had told the
14 Americans.
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. In fact, didn't you tell the Americans after 20 or so
17 meetings that in fact you never saw Ramzi Yusef?
18 A. What here --
19 Q. Yes, no, Mr. Fadl.
20 A. No.
21 MR. SCHMIDT: May I have that paper back.
22 Q. Did you call Mr. Ramzi Yusef the mastermind of the World
23 Trade Center bombing?
24 A. No, they have nickname for him but I don't remember his
25 name now.
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1 Q. Did you call him the mastermind of the World Trade Center
2 bombing?
3 A. No, I don't call him that.
4 Q. In fact, isn't that what you said to the Americans, that
5 you knew the mastermind, you trained with the mastermind of
6 the World Trade Center bombing, Ramzi Yusef, on your first or
7 second interview with the American agents? Isn't that
8 correct?
9 A. Yes, I told them I saw the guy in Sada camp, the border of
10 Pakistan and Afghanistan.
11 Q. Didn't you tell them, the Americans, in the first
12 interview, that you were the chief of security for Usama Bin
13 Laden for a year?
14 A. Bodyguard?
15 Q. Chief of security.
16 A. Me or who?
17 Q. Did you tell the Americans the first time you came in to
18 sell yourself to the Americans --
19 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form.
20 THE COURT: Yes, sustained as to form. Restart your
21 question.
22 Q. The first time that you came to see the Americans, didn't
23 you tell them that you were the chief of security for Mr. Bin
24 Laden for a year?
25 A. Yes, I bodyguard for him and I traveled with him inside
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1 Khartoum, Damazine, Kassala, Damazine. Yes, I bodyguard for
2 him.
3 MR. SCHMIDT: I ask the interpreter to interpret my
4 next question.
5 Q. Didn't you tell the Americans that you were chief of
6 security for Bin Laden for one year? (Interpreted)
7 A. It's not year but I remember I run the people that do
8 security.
9 Q. My question, Mr. Al-Fadl, is simple, and please translate
10 it.
11 Did you tell the American agents that you were the
12 chief of security for Bin Laden for one year?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That was a lie, wasn't it?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You haven't described your role during my --
17 THE COURT: Are you going to ask a question now?
18 MR. SCHMIDT: I will withdraw and rephrase that.
19 Q. When in your description of the jobs that you did for Bin
20 Laden that you just testified to that you were the chief of
21 security?
22 A. Any time he call me and he say we want to go to Damazine
23 camp and I need to be with me for security I go for few days
24 and we come back. Sometimes I go Saba, Kassala, sometimes the
25 Soba farm number one, and that is security work.
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1 Q. And this is your definition of chief of security, is that
2 what you're saying?
3 A. Yes, when I go with him he drive me and I know him in the
4 end of '88 and that's part of the security.
5 Q. Tell us what other role as chief of security -- withdrawn.
6 What other activities did you do as chief of security
7 for Mr. Bin Laden during that time?
8 A. When we working interrogation office we check everybody
9 come to the al Qaeda group, the new people and that security,
10 too.
11 Q. Okay. That's part of your role as chief of security?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Anything else entailed --
14 A. They will come to --
15 THE COURT: Wait a minute.
16 Q. Let me finish my question.
17 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Slow down. Ask the
18 question, permit the witness to answer the question before you
19 ask another question, and let's start over again.
20 MR. SCHMIDT: He interrupted my question.
21 THE COURT: You were both talking at the same time.
22 Q. Is there any -- what other responsibilities did you have
23 as the chief of security for Mr. Bin Laden during that time?
24 A. We have a lot of places and Damazine farm in Khartoum. We
25 ship, if we have meetings we checked everybody, we try make
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1 everything secure in the guest house or farm.
2 Q. How many times did you go to say Damazine farm?
3 A. Different times.
4 Q. How many times?
5 A. I don't remember how many times but different times.
6 Q. One time, two times, ten times, twenty times?
7 A. More than two or three or four.
8 MR. FITZGERALD: Time frame, Judge?
9 THE COURT: Time frame.
10 Q. While you lived in the Sudan how many times did you go to
11 Damazine?
12 A. In '92, '93, '94.
13 Q. Sir, how many times did you go to Damazine?
14 A. I don't remember how many time exactly. It could be more
15 than five, six, seven.
16 Q. Haven't you previously -- haven't you told the Americans
17 that you went to the Damazine farm on two occasions and two
18 occasions only?
19 A. No, more than that.
20 Q. What else did you do as chief of security?
21 A. Our companies also if anybody come to the company he
22 should sign his name, he should sign his name, put his name
23 and we see his ID card. We want to see who, also, we do that
24 in all the companies.
25 Q. Anything else?
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1 A. We make report about a lot of other groups in Sudan, and
2 some groups the workers name is Bin Laden group and again.
3 Q. Anything else?
4 A. And we work try to make sure he good.
5 Q. Is there any reason, Mr. Al Fadl, that when I was asking
6 you earlier today about the different roles and jobs that you
7 had for Mr. Bin Laden that you left out your job as chief of
8 security?
9 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: No, I'll allow it.
11 A. Could you repeat your question?
12 Q. You translate this, please.
13 Is there any reason when I asked you all your jobs
14 and your roles that you did for Mr. Bin Laden from 1989 to
15 1994, you left out that you were the chief of security?
16 (Through the interpreter)
17 A. I really misunderstand your question.
18 Q. Excuse me?
19 A. I'm not understanding your question.
20 MR. SCHMIDT: Please translate.
21 Q. (Through the interpreter). Earlier today I'd asked you a
22 number of questions concerning what kind of work you did for
23 Mr. Bin Laden, remember that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And I asked you what else did you do? What else did you
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1 do? What else did you do? Remember that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And then I asked you was there anything else that you did
4 and you said, no?
5 A. I don't remember. What I remember I tell you already.
6 Q. Why did you not tell us about such important job as chief
7 of security for Bin Laden? Why did you not tell us about
8 that?
9 A. I don't remember and I tell you now there is nothing for
10 my to hide. We work in the business, we work in security, we
11 work in training, in the camps. We do different jobs.
12 Q. So when I questioned you earlier you forgot about being
13 the chief of security for Bin Laden, is that right?
14 A. Yes. All you question about the business. You focus on
15 business areas. That's why I just give you answer for
16 business.
17 Q. Now, you also told the government, the first time that you
18 saw him, that you knew Usama Bin Laden in Afghanistan from
19 1986 to 1989. Remember telling them that?
20 A. No, '87 when I work in Brooklyn Mustafa Shalabi and the
21 newspaper come, and that time we know who is Bin Laden, but
22 the first time in during '88.
23 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, didn't you tell the Americans the first time
24 you met them, that, oh, I know Bin Laden Afghanistan from 1986
25 to 1989?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Didn't you tell them that?
3 A. No, because I came to United States in '86 and I left
4 United States end of '87.
5 Q. I'm going to ask you to take a look at a document marked
6 3501-45, page 1 at the bottom the last paragraph.
7 May I approach the witness, your Honor?
8 THE COURT: Certainly. Mr. Schmidt, let me know when
9 you're on a new topic.
10 (Document handed to witness)
11 (Pause)
12 (Witness consults with interpreter)
13 A. When I tell them that I talk about the time include when I
14 was in Farouk Mosque in Brooklyn.
15 Q. Did you say to the Americans that you knew Bin Laden
16 Afghanistan during '86 to '89 time frame? Didn't you say
17 that?
18 A. No, I don't remember.
19 Q. You told us about a little bit about your American wife.
20 Remember testifying here last week?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you told us that when you believed it was the right
23 time to go to Afghanistan at the end of 1988 you told her
24 you're leaving, right?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And you said, I don't know if I'm coming back and you
2 left, right?
3 A. Yes. I tell her I want to go to Afghanistan and maybe I'm
4 never going to come back.
5 Q. Now, you didn't divorce her, is that correct?
6 A. No.
7 Q. No one forced you to go to Afghanistan, did they?
8 A. What?
9 Q. No one forced you to go to Afghanistan, did they?
10 A. At that time I work in Farouk Mosque and they tell me go
11 to Afghanistan, I go.
12 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, you went to Afghanistan because you thought
13 it was the right thing to do, isn't that right?
14 A. I work at that time with Mustafa Shalabi in Farouk Mosque
15 in Brooklyn, we bring donation to the office and they send the
16 donation from Brooklyn to Afghanistan.
17 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, do you think that the fight against the
18 Russian communists by the Afghan mujahideen and the other
19 Muslim volunteers was a good thing?
20 A. I don't believe that. If he would tell me Farouk Mosque
21 about what's going on there, and that's why I go.
22 Q. So when you went over.
23 A. When you go somewhere, you need somebody to tell you about
24 that.
25 Q. So when you went to the -- so when you were raising money
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1 for the Afghan resistance against the Russian communists you
2 didn't know anything about it?
3 A. The people tell me how it started, I started that I will
4 come when I work, and they tell me, look, you Muslim come to
5 the mosque, bring donation, inform other people and I work
6 with them in Brooklyn and after that they tell me better for
7 you to go over there and I make my decision and I went over
8 there.
9 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, did you know about the Russians invading
10 Afghanistan --
11 A. Came from the news, but news is not enough.
12 Q. Please let me finish my question, Mr. Al Fadl?
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. Did you know about the Russians invading Afghanistan when
15 you were living in the Sudan?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You had no idea?
18 A. Only here when I come to the United States.
19 Q. You never heard about the Russian invasion of Afghanistan
20 until you came --
21 A. Just from the news.
22 Q. Do you know about it from the news while you were in the
23 Sudan?
24 A. I, yes.
25 Q. But it wasn't any of your concern?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. And you came to the United States?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you ended up in Brooklyn, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You ended up going to a mosque in Brooklyn where they
7 talked about what was going on in Afghanistan?
8 A. No, actually I work in grocery and somebody, two guys,
9 three came and start talking, tell me come to the mosque,
10 their lecture something about Afghanistan, if you want to know
11 that's good for you.
12 Q. So when you went around getting donations did you think it
13 was a good thing?
14 A. Yeah, after they tell me and give me details, yes, I think
15 that's a good idea.
16 Q. Did you think it was a good thing?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. About all the people trying to force the Russian
19 communists out of Afghanistan?
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. Did you support them?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You supported them by working and getting money, is that
24 right?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And you knew that Muslims from around the world were going
2 to Afghanistan to actually help fight or help relief work in
3 Afghanistan?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, before you were asked to go, did you have any
6 thoughts about that might be a good thing for you to do?
7 A. Well, when I hear the first one they tell me about the
8 fatwa I say, well, that's a good idea, because Bin Laden Abdul
9 Azzam, they make lecture in jihad magazine, and we read the
10 magazine in Brooklyn, and we see, well, this is fatwa.
11 Q. So you were following what was going on in Afghanistan at
12 the mosque, at the Afghani Center or was that --
13 A. Farouk Mosque.
14 Q. Mektab?
15 A. Yes, Farouk Mosque is --
16 Q. Al kafar ring a bell?
17 A. Mosque Al kafar.
18 Q. And you're reading the jihad magazine?
19 A. Yes. Mustafa Shalabi every magazine he give it to us and
20 we read it.
21 Q. You knew that the Afghanis themselves were seeking help
22 from Muslims to fight the Russians to throw them out of their
23 country, right?
24 A. Correct, yes.
25 Q. The Afghanis invited, they wanted people to come and help
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1 them, right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you read about what Bin Laden was doing, right?
4 A. Bin Laden and Azzam.
5 Q. And what Mr. Azzam was doing, right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You thought that it would be a good thing for you as a
8 person reestablishing your Muslim identity to go and help the
9 Afghanis, is that right?
10 A. Yes, they say you have to.
11 Q. Well, did you take the request to go to Afghanistan as an
12 order?
13 A. Yes, because fatwa Islam mean like you have to, better
14 than do business or support your wife or kids, that I call it
15 for the fatwa.
16 Q. Fatwa means that you have to think about what people say
17 to see if you believe it's correct?
18 A. No, fatwa is different. Fatwa means when the people tell
19 you the jihad in Afghanistan fardh al khafiya means you have
20 to go by yourself to leave everything and go.
21 Q. Isn't that the very big difference between Sunni and the
22 Shia?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Right. In the Shiites if the leader, if the imam, the
25 leader, says something is true you follow it, right?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. But in the Sunni there is no leader like that, right?
3 A. Because we don't have.
4 Q. Right. You have scholars who give their argument to you
5 why this is correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And what a fatwa is simply is if it's a proper fatwa is
10 issued by a scholar who says, this is what you should be done
11 and because of the reasons?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And they explain it in order to convince each individual
14 Muslim of, that they're correct in doing this fatwa?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In fact, all through the Muslim Sunni world it's different
17 scholars say different things, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And it's your responsibility, your ultimate responsibility
20 as a good Muslim to make that determination on your own that
21 this is a proper fatwa?
22 A. No, no. Because if you think about the religion by itself
23 is not right, because the scholar he bring the fatwa from the
24 Holy Koran from what prophet Mohammed say from what the
25 scholar in history say, so when he tell you about the fatwa
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1 not about what he think about the Holy Koran.
2 Q. But aren't there times when there are different fatwas
3 that are issued that are complete opposite things, right?
4 A. Yeah, but that time --
5 Q. Mr.
6 A. The scholar --
7 THE COURT: The question is, right? Now he's
8 answering your question.
9 Q. Now --
10 THE COURT: He's answers.
11 MR. SCHMIDT: He's going beyond, your Honor.
12 THE COURT: Mr. Reporter, read the question.
13 (Record read)
14 A. At that time the most of the scholars in Arab countries
15 and even the United States they say jihad in Afghanistan, and
16 that means you have fardh al khafiya, but you can't even think
17 about because you have to do just like prayer.
18 Q. A good example. In Afghanistan all of the scholars agreed
19 that it was an obligation of good Muslims around the world to
20 help their Afghani brothers throw out the Russians, right?
21 A. It's not so you have to. That's --
22 Q. Your obligation to help them throw out the Russians?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Because the Afghanis requested help, it was a enemy that
25 was anti-Muslim that invaded their own country, so everybody
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1 agreed, right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, there are times when they don't always agree, these
4 scholars, right?
5 A. Well, all the scholars they agree because it's in the
6 paper.
7 Q. Now, let's use the interpreter.
8 (Through the interpreter). There are times when
9 these scholars don't always agree about things other than
10 Afghanistan, isn't that correct?
11 THE INTERPRETER: That means all the scholars agree
12 and there are times --
13 Q. A good example of when scholars do not agree was about the
14 American presence in Saudi Arabia, isn't that right?
15 A. I don't understand.
16 MR. SCHMIDT: Would you please translate that.
17 (Through the interpreter)
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And when the scholars do not agree it's the individual
20 Muslim who has the religious obligation to think and make
21 their own decision as to what they believe is proper, isn't
22 that correct?
23 A. No, is not correct.
24 Q. Are you saying that if someone issues, if some supposed
25 scholar issues a fatwa that you personally believe is against
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1 Islam that --
2 A. Because --
3 Q. -- should still follow it?
4 A. If the fatwa about something like jihad is different than
5 fatwa about prayer, because is all scholar they make same
6 fatwa for jihad we follow them, but if some scholar they say
7 is not jihad, some scholars they say is jihad, we leave it.
8 I'm not going to follow this or this until they came together
9 and this is example for fardh al khafiya you all came together
10 they agreed, but now a lot of groups in Arab countries they
11 say when jihad in that country some scholars they say no, so
12 the people they say no, we don't do jihad.
13 Q. And a good Muslim then would say, I'm not going to follow?
14 A. Until the scholars come together.
15 Q. Now, let's go back to where it started. You left your
16 wife and you went to Afghanistan, is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, the government said to you on direct examination,
19 asked you in Islam are you allowed more than one wife?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You said yes?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you explain that to the government when you were
24 talking with them years ago about how you are allowed to have
25 more than one wife in Islam?
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1 A. I don't remember the conversation exactly, but Islam is
2 you have more than one four wives that's allowed to go.
3 Q. And the government accepted the fact that it was perfectly
4 permissible in Islam for you to have more than one wife,
5 right?
6 A. In Islam, yes, if you have --
7 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.
8 A. If you have more than one wife okay.
9 THE COURT: Objection is sustained. The question and
10 answer stricken. You want to pursue it, ask another question.
11 Q. Did any representative of the government say to you at any
12 time that, no, what you did was wrong about marrying the
13 American woman?
14 A. I really don't remember.
15 THE COURT: Wrong about marrying the American woman?
16 MR. SCHMIDT: Right.
17 A. I don't remember.
18 Q. You don't remember them saying anything like that?
19 A. It could be, but I didn't remember now. If I remember I
20 say, you know, I'm glad to tell you.
21 Q. You were married already in the Sudan before you came to
22 the United States, is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, in fact, it's not simply, it's not permissible simply
25 to get up and marry a second or a third or fourth wife just
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1 because you decide, isn't that correct?
2 A. Because in Islam, yes, if you marry one or more than one,
3 that's okay.
4 Q. Isn't -- doesn't Islam require that you obtain the
5 permission of your first wife to marry a second wife?
6 A. If you tell her, that's great, if you don't tell her.
7 Q. Isn't it required in Islam that before you take a second
8 wife that you obtain the permission of the first wife?
9 A. Some scholar they say you have to. Some scholars they say
10 no. If you married then after that you tell her, that's also
11 okay.
12 Q. And how many years do you have to tell your second wife
13 that, your first wife that you've taken a second wife?
14 A. Well, the worst thing if you tell her right away is good
15 for you and her.
16 Q. This is one of the things where scholars disagree and you
17 decided to follow the scholars that say you can go to another
18 country and marry a woman and not tell anybody?
19 A. No, not because I follow other scholar but I make mistake
20 like everybody you know, I didn't tell my wife, the first
21 wife.
22 Q. Well, isn't it a fact that another one of the rules about
23 taking more than one wife is not to cause any distress to the
24 first wife, the main wife, the first wife, isn't that true?
25 A. Well, look, I love her so much I say the first one, but
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1 when I come here I feel like if I marry it's better for me.
2 Q. In other words, when you want to do something that you
3 want to do, you don't care what Islam says, isn't that right?
4 A. I didn't say I don't care, but I say I make mistake I
5 should tell my first wife I'm in United States, I want to
6 protect myself to marry the woman, I should tell her that, but
7 I make mistake and I didn't tell her.
8 Q. How did you treat your second wife?
9 A. Very good.
10 Q. Very good? And was it very good when you said, bye honey,
11 I'm going to Afghanistan?
12 A. No. No, I didn't told her, bye, honey. I tell her I want
13 to go to Afghanistan. I don't know if I go to die over there
14 because the Afghan, but I didn't her like I go to grocery
15 store, I go to --
16 Q. Were you sending money back to your first wife when you
17 were in the United States?
18 A. Could you repeat the question?
19 Q. Were you sending money back to your first wife when you
20 were in the United States?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Without your second wife knowing about it?
23 A. The first, the wife here?
24 Q. The first wife is in the Sudan, right?
25 A. Yes, the first wife in Sudan.
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1 Q. Then you came to the United States, right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You started working, you got married, you're a lonely man
4 in the United States, you got married, right, and intimate
5 marital relations with her. Did you send money to support
6 your first wife in the Sudan?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. And your second wife didn't know about it. You did it
9 behind her back?
10 A. No, I didn't tell her.
11 Q. And how much money have you given your second wife since
12 you come back to the United States?
13 A. The wife I live here in the United States?
14 Q. Yes?
15 A. I pay for the rents every week $50.
16 Q. To which wife?
17 A. The wife here.
18 Q. Do you have a child with her?
19 A. No.
20 Q. So you've been since you're back in the United States
21 you're giving your first wife $50?
22 A. No, no, no, I talk about the wife here in the United
23 States, we share the apartment, and I pay the rent every week,
24 $50. I buy some food and other stuff.
25 THE COURT: What time interval are we talking about?
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1 Q. That's when you were in the United States living with her?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, you told the Americans the first day that you started
4 talking to them that you were forced by your superiors to
5 divorce your American wife?
6 A. I not understand what you said.
7 MR. SCHMIDT: Can you translate, please.
8 (Through the interpreter)
9 A. The people I work with in Brooklyn they tell me you have
10 to go to Afghanistan and you have fatwa.
11 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, did you tell the Americans that you were
12 forced by your superiors to divorce your first wife after one
13 year?
14 A. When I talk about the fatwa.
15 Q. Mr. Al Fadl --
16 Can we have the question translated please?
17 I'll rephrase the question.
18 Mr. Al Fadl, did you tell the Americans that you were
19 forced by your superiors to divorce your American wife after
20 one year?
21 A. Yes. But I talk about the fatwa, 'cause I have to go to
22 Afghanistan.
23 Q. Did you tell the Americans that you traveled to the United
24 States in 1985 or 1986 for Islamic military training on the
25 second interview with the Americans?
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1 A. No, no. When I came to United States here? No.
2 Q. I'm going to ask you --
3 A. I don't remember that at all.
4 Q. I'm going to ask you to take a look and this is marked
5 3501-35, page 4, I'm marking now where I want you to take a
6 look.
7 Please have the interpreter translate it for you.
8 May I approach the witness, your Honor?
9 THE COURT: Yes.
10 (Document handed to witness)
11 (Through the interpreter)
12 THE INTERPRETER: Which paragraph?
13 A. No, I never remember, I never tell them that.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, this may be a good point to
16 break.
17 THE COURT: We'll take our mid-morning recess at this
18 point.
19 (Recess)
20 (In open court; jury not present)
21 THE COURT: Please be seated. The Marshal tells me
22 one of the jurors just learned that his mother passed away and
23 he's on the phone.
24 (Pause)
25 (In open court; jury present)
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1 THE COURT: The witness may resume the stand.
2 (Witness resumed)
3 THE COURT: Mr. Schmidt, you may continue.
4 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, how much was it for an application to the
5 University of Georgia?
6 A. I don't remember.
7 Q. How many pages was the application that you had to fill
8 out to go to the University of Georgia?
9 A. I remember my brother Ibrahim he bring the application for
10 me. I don't remember it's two or three weeks.
11 Q. Did you have to provide any other information to the
12 University of Georgia to get admitted to the University of
13 Georgia?
14 A. I remember at that time my brother Ibrahim and my cousin
15 they tried to help me, but they said they need the high school
16 for Sudan and other stuff.
17 Q. How much did you pay for the first semester for the
18 school?
19 A. We got the first semester, I don't know it's six hundred
20 for just English for two months.
21 Q. At that time in 1986 your English wasn't as good as it is
22 now, is that right?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Now, in fact, you never went to the University of Georgia
25 is that right?
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1 A. Well, I tried to, but I didn't finish all the paperwork,
2 but I took the semester for English.
3 Q. But when you went to the US embassy to get a visa to go to
4 the United States you told them that you were going to be a
5 student at the University of Georgia, didn't you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you had a visa, a student visa based on your sworn
8 statement to the United States counsulate, isn't that right?
9 A. Yes, you call it I20.
10 Q. You had to make sworn statements to get that visa, didn't
11 you?
12 A. Well, I did the application and I got the visa.
13 MR. SCHMIDT: Could you translate this, please?
14 (Through the interpreter)
15 Q. You had to make sworn statements at the United States
16 counsulate that you were going to college for you to get the
17 visa, isn't that correct?
18 (Through the interpreter)
19 A. No, they don't do that with me. They just give me
20 application and they give me something they call it I20. I20
21 is for people who go for student.
22 Q. To had fill out that accurately, is that correct?
23 A. Yes. They ask you what school you went to in Sudan and
24 who is going to support you and you bring that from your dad
25 and you bring the ticket.
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1 Q. And you have to swear an oath that your application is
2 accurate and are not lies, isn't that right?
3 A. No, you bring letter for whatever he going to support the
4 trip and your child in the United States and I bring that
5 letter from my dad.
6 Q. You came to the United States. You landed in New York, is
7 that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you went to the mosque in New York and you obtained
10 employment, is that right?
11 A. I remember I went to New York. After that I went to
12 Atlanta, Georgia and after that I came back again to New York
13 and I stay in Brooklyn.
14 Q. You never went to school in the United States, is that
15 correct?
16 A. Well, I try, I said that, and after that I change my mind
17 because it cost a lot of money and I decide not to.
18 THE COURT: Mr. Al Fadl, please listen to the
19 question, and if the question could be answered yes or no
20 answer it yes or no. Don't give your reason, but just answer
21 the question.
22 THE WITNESS: Okay.
23 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, you had a series of conversations from
24 September 7th into November with agents at the US embassy; is
25 that correct?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. These were not FBI agents; is that correct?
3 A. I don't know what kind of agents but I know they're from
4 the government.
5 Q. But then there came another point in time December of
6 1996, when you started talking to FBI agents who identified
7 themselves as FBI agents, is that correct?
8 A. Yes, after that we went to Europe and I talk with other
9 people.
10 Q. But that first series of interviews, those were about
11 thirty or so different days that you were interviewed, right?
12 A. Yes, it could be around three weeks.
13 Q. Now, the first one was December 6, 1996. Would that be
14 about right?
15 A. In Nigeria.
16 Q. The first interviews the first time that you came into
17 talk to the Americans?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In December?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So it was a lot more than three weeks?
22 A. Could be.
23 Q. Now, during that time you were asked questions about and
24 you volunteered information about different people that you
25 knew from the Sudan, is that correct?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. From Afghanistan?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. People involved with Bin Laden?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And people involved with the NIF?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And other people that you came in contact with during the
11 years of 1986, when you came to the United States to the year
12 that you, 1996, when you started talking to the Americans. Is
13 that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that first thirty or so meetings you gave them
16 hundreds of names, is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Some of them that you mentioned on your own. Is that
19 right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And some of them that they asked you about?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Right? Do you know such and such, right?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. The other ones were ones, I work with this person and this
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1 person, right?
2 Do you recall the first occasion that you mentioned
3 in some name or form Wadih El Hage?
4 A. At what time?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. I don't understand.
7 Q. How many days or how many interviews went by before you
8 mentioned a person that you now claim to be Wadih El Hage in
9 your interviews, not with the FBI in Europe, but those earlier
10 interviews?
11 A. If I remember right I think in Europe when I was in
12 Europe.
13 Q. The first time that you talked about Wadih El Hage was in
14 Europe with the FBI, is that your testimony?
15 A. I'm not sure, but it could be in Europe when I was in
16 Europe.
17 Q. You told -- before you went to Europe, you told the
18 government every Abu name that you knew of, isn't that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You did not say Abu Abdallah meaning Mr. El Hage during
21 those first thirty or thirty-five interviews you had with the
22 United States government, isn't that correct?
23 A. I really don't remember.
24 Q. Your present memory is the first time -- withdrawn.
25 Did you ever use the name El Hage in the thirty or so
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1 times or two and a half months that you were interviewed by
2 the people before you went to Europe?
3 A. Really don't remember. What I remember in Europe, we talk
4 about Wadih El Hage.
5 Q. But while you were in, before you went to Europe, during
6 all those interviews the government agents were asking you
7 about all the people that were involved in al Qaeda; is that
8 correct? Isn't that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you named hundreds of people, didn't you?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And you did not mention Wadih El Hage?
13 A. I don't remember.
14 Q. Isn't that correct?
15 A. I don't remember.
16 Q. Do you remember saying anything about Wadih El Hage to the
17 agents before you went to Europe?
18 A. I really don't remember.
19 Q. The answer is yes, I do not remember ever saying anything
20 about Wadih El Hage, is that correct?
21 A. I do not remember if I say or I don't say.
22 Q. What at this particular time is the first thing that you
23 remember telling any government agent outside of Europe or
24 Europe about Wadih El Hage?
25 A. I remember one time we talk in about him in Europe. But I
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1 didn't remember if I talk about him before Europe or no.
2 Q. Isn't it a fact that the first time that the name of Wadih
3 El Hage came up was when the FBI asked you what you know about
4 Wadih El Hage on October 23, 1997?
5 A. I really don't remember.
6 Q. Mr. Al Fadl, you have told us that you remembered hundreds
7 of names Abu names, person's given names and you told them all
8 to the government, and it is your testimony here today that
9 you don't remember when the first time you were asked about
10 Wadih El Hage? Is that your testimony?
11 A. I don't remember when they asked me. I don't remember
12 when they asked me. But I remember they asked me about him
13 but I didn't remember which year or which month they asked me
14 about, and if I remember, I'd be glad to tell you.
15 Q. Wasn't it the government who first mentioned Wadih El
16 Hage's name and not you?
17 A. I really don't remember if I mention it or the government
18 mention it and what time, what year, what month, I really
19 don't remember.
20 Q. It was more than one year after you started talking to the
21 United States that the government asked you about Wadih El
22 Hage, isn't that correct, Mr. Al Fadl?
23 A. I don't remember.
24 Q. When was the first time that Mr. El Hage's name Abu
25 Abdallah came up?
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1 A. I really don't remember.
2 Q. Was it before or after you discussed with the government
3 the name Wadih El Hage?
4 A. I really don't remember which year or which month they
5 asked me or I mentioned or they mentioned it to me.
6 Q. My question is --
7 Can you interpret this, please?
8 Did the name Abu Abdullah al Lubnani, come up before
9 or after the mentioning of Wadih El Hage?
10 (Through the interpreter)
11 THE INTERPRETER: The name is Abdallah what? I did
12 not hear.
13 MR. SCHMIDT: Lubnani.
14 (Through the interpreter)
15 A. What I remember saying I think it was yes, El Hage, yes.
16 Q. Did you know him? You claim to know him by any other name
17 than Abu Abdullah al Lubnani and Wadih El Hage?
18 A. I think in Afghanistan.
19 Q. Where in Afghanistan was this?
20 A. I remember I saw him in Afghanistan in the shower in the
21 camp, in the first camp.
22 Q. In what year was this?
23 A. I really don't remember if '91 or '2 or '90, I really
24 don't remember.
25 Q. You s