21 February 2001
Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of
New York; (212) 805-0300.
This is the transcript of Day 8 of the trial.
See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm
1071
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 ------------------------------x
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
4 v. S(7) 98 Cr. 1023
5 USAMA BIN LADEN, et al.,
6 Defendants.
7 ------------------------------x
8
New York, N.Y.
9 February 21, 2001
9:45 a.m.
10
11
12 Before:
13 HON. LEONARD B. SAND,
14 District Judge
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1072
1 APPEARANCES
2 MARY JO WHITE
United States Attorney for the
3 Southern District of New York
BY: PATRICK FITZGERALD
4 KENNETH KARAS
PAUL BUTLER
5 Assistant United States Attorneys
6
ANTHONY L. RICCO
7 EDWARD D. WILFORD
CARL J. HERMAN
8 Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh
9 FREDRICK H. COHN
DAVID P. BAUGH
10 Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali
11 DAVID STERN
DAVID RUHNKE
12 Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed
13
SAM A. SCHMIDT
14 JOSHUA DRATEL
KRISTIAN K. LARSEN
15 Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage
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1075
1 (Trial resumed)
2 (Pages 1073-1074 filed under seal)
3 (Recess)
4 (In open court; jury not present)
5 THE COURT: I have reviewed the redactions in the
6 3500 material for Agent Coleman and have found the redactions
7 to be appropriate. I had one or two questions which I have
8 discussed with Mr. Karas and I am satisfied that the
9 redactions are appropriate.
10 Anything else before the jury is brought in? Bring
11 in the jury.
12 This is the only case in the history of this
13 courthouse that starts earlier than scheduled. The next
14 witness may take the stand.
15 MR. KARAS: Judge, first we are going to do CNN.
16 THE COURT: You don't need a witness for that?
17 MR. KARAS: No.
18 MR. COHN: Does your Honor know anything further
19 about the juror's funeral plans?
20 THE COURT: No, he was going to let the marshal know,
21 and I have been advised all sorts of things, but not of that.
22 It gets shown on this?
23 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.
24 THE COURT: Mr. Wilford, I was just wondering about
25 Thursday a week, whether there is any possibility for it to be
1076
1 scheduled so that someone else could be covering and the trial
2 could go forward even in your absence.
3 MR. WILFORD: I think that would be possible -- yes.
4 THE COURT: There are so many reasons to adjourn. I
5 regret, for example, because Norman Ostrow was a friend and
6 worked with me on the Committee on Jury Studies which I made
7 reference to. I really want to have a very restricted view on
8 when we adjourn. A juror is scheduling his mother's funeral
9 so as not to interfere with the trial.
10 (Jury present)
11 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
12 JURORS: Good morning.
13 THE COURT: I have been presented with a stipulation.
14 You recall a stipulation is an agreement among counsel, and
15 the stipulation which is Government's Exhibit 33, reads:
16 It is hereby stipulated and agreed by and between the
17 United States of America and all counsel:
18 1. Government's Exhibit 80 is an authentic copy of a
19 videotape of an interview conducted by representatives from
20 CNN with Usama Bin Laden in Afghanistan on March 20, 1997.
21 Portions of the interview aired on CNN on May 10, 1997 and a
22 transcript of the entire interview later appeared on the CNN
23 Web site.
24 2. Exhibit 80-T is a fair and accurate translation
25 of the interview that is depicted on Government's Exhibit 80.
1077
1 It is signed by all counsel in the case.
2 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we would offer
3 both the stipulation and Government's Exhibits 80 and 80-T,
4 and propose that we play the video.
5 THE COURT: So Exhibit 33, the stipulation, and
6 Exhibit 80 and 80T are received in evidence.
7 (Government's Exhibits 33, 80 and 80T received in
8 evidence)
9 THE COURT: You may play the tape.
10 MR. KARAS: Thank you, your Honor.
11 (Videotape played)
12 THE COURT: All right, that concludes the playing of
13 that exhibit. The government may call its next witness.
14 MR. KARAS: Yes, Judge. The government calls Special
15 Agent Daniel Coleman.
16 (Continued on next page)
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1078
1 DANIEL COLEMAN,
2 called as a witness by the government,
3 having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
4 DIRECT EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. KARAS:
6 Q Good morning.
7 A Good morning.
8 Q Can you tell us how you are employed.
9 A I am a special agent with the Federal Bureau of
10 Investigation.
11 Q Is that here in New York City?
12 A Yes, it is.
13 Q Were you a special agent with the FBI on August 21, 1997?
14 A Yes, I was.
15 Q Can you tell the jury where you were on August 21, 1997.
16 A Nairobi, Kenya.
17 Q What reason were you in Nairobi, Kenya?
18 A I was there to assist and participate in the search of a
19 house office in Nairobi.
20 Q What was the specific address of that location?
21 A 1523 Fedha Estates, Nairobi, Kenya.
22 (Continued on next page)
23
24
25
1079
1 Q And what was your understanding of who was using that
2 location?
3 A It was used by --
4 MR. DRATEL: Objection, your Honor, to the form of
5 the question.
6 THE COURT: Excuse me?
7 MR. DRATEL: Objection to the form of the question,
8 using the premises.
9 THE COURT: Restate it.
10 Q What was your understanding of who was either working out
11 of that location or living at that location?
12 A Wadih El Hage, among others.
13 Q Who else was participating in the search?
14 A Kenyan government officials.
15 Q And did the search take place on that day?
16 A Yes, it did.
17 Q What time of day did the search begin?
18 A Approximately 4:30 in the afternoon.
19 Q And when you and Kenya officials went to that location
20 were there people inside?
21 A Yes, there were.
22 Q Can you describe the first room of the location at 1523
23 Feda Estates?
24 A The main door to the house is located towards the center
25 of the house on the porch. As you walk into the house and you
1080
1 enter a room that is apparently being used as an office.
2 There is two desks within the room. There is a desk directly
3 beyond the door, which is facing sideways, facing out, and
4 there is a desk to the back facing directly towards the door
5 towards the back entrance. The desk is located towards the
6 back entrance of the room.
7 Q Were there any telephones in that room?
8 A Yes, there were.
9 Q Where were they?
10 A The telephone was located on the rear desk in the back of
11 the room.
12 Q Now, Agent Coleman, were any items seized from that first
13 room that you just described?
14 A Yes. A laptop computer, an Apple laptop computer, some
15 manuals that go along with the computer, some address books,
16 some notebooks, date planner --
17 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, may I approach the witness?
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 Q Agent Coleman, I placed before you what has been marked
20 for identification as Government Exhibit 300 and ask you to
21 take a look at that.
22 A Yes.
23 Q Can you tell us what that is?
24 A It's a McIntosh Power Book 140.
25 Q And is that the computer that was taken from that first
1081
1 room at the location of the search?
2 A Yes, it is.
3 Q Is it in substantially the same condition as when you
4 first saw?
5 A Yes, it is.
6 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, we offer Government Exhibit
7 300.
8 THE COURT: Received.
9 (Government's Exhibit 300 received in evidence)
10 MR. KARAS: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
11 THE COURT: Yes.
12 Q Agent Coleman, I placed before you what have been marked
13 for identification as Government Exhibit 304, 305, 306, 307,
14 and 309.
15 A Yes.
16 Q Will you start with 304 and tell us what that is?
17 A It's a metal, it's called a phone index. It pops up based
18 upon the letter that you go to.
19 Q Is that one of the items that was taken from that first
20 room?
21 A Yes, it is.
22 Q Is it in substantially the same condition as when you
23 first saw it?
24 A Yes, it is.
25 Q With respect to Government Exhibit 305, can you tell us
1082
1 what that is?
2 A This is a black planner diary, like a date planner.
3 Q And is that also one of the items that was taken from the
4 first room?
5 A Yes, it is.
6 Q Is it in substantially the same condition?
7 A Yes, it is.
8 Q Now, would you tell us what exhibit 306 is, please?
9 A 306 is a holder for business cards.
10 Q What color is it?
11 A Black.
12 Q And Government Exhibit 307?
13 A It's a similar item except it's labeled name card holder
14 and it's blue.
15 Q And 308?
16 A Again, it's a similar item but there one is tan in color
17 green on the inside called a business card file and it
18 contains business cards.
19 Q Do the two previous exhibits contain business cards as
20 well?
21 A Yes, they do.
22 Q Finally, can you tell us what Government Exhibit 309 is?
23 A 309 is a item called a Jambo Diary from 1997 and it's a
24 daily planner.
25 Q Were all of those items seized in that first room at Feda
1083
1 Estates?
2 A Yes, they were.
3 Q Are they in substantially the same condition as when you
4 first saw them?
5 A Yes, they are.
6 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, we offer Government Exhibits
7 304 through 309.
8 THE COURT: Yes, received.
9 (Government's Exhibits 304 through 309 received in
10 evidence)
11 Q Agent Coleman --
12 MR. BAUGH: Your Honor, 304 through 309, but there
13 was no mention of 308. 308 is not admitted.
14 MR. KARAS: I apologize, that's correct.
15 THE COURT: So it's 304, 5, 6, 7 and 9 are received.
16 MR. KARAS: Yes.
17 Q Agent Coleman, was there any other computer equipment that
18 was seized during this search?
19 A Yes, there was.
20 Q Can you tell us where that equipment was found?
21 A There is a bedroom in the house located directly adjacent
22 to the front room. The other items were located on the top
23 shelf of a closet within the bedroom directly next to the door
24 into the bedroom.
25 Q Will you tell us what these items were?
1084
1 A There was assorted equipment that goes along with a
2 computer. It includes power cords, two printers, assorted
3 diskettes, the small size three and a half inch, and a mouse,
4 a computer mouse.
5 MR. KARAS: May I approach the witness?
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 Q Agent Coleman, I placed before you what have been marked
8 for identification as Government Exhibits 301, 302, 303, and
9 we'll start with those for a minute. Can you tell us what 301
10 is?
11 A 301 is a power card for a McIntosh Power Book.
12 Q Can you tell us what 302 is?
13 A 302 is a Canon bubble jet printer, BJ10SX.
14 Q And 303?
15 A Is a Kodak Diconix 180SI printer.
16 Q And I've also placed before you in the Redwell what have
17 been marked for identification as Government Exhibits 310-1
18 through 310-67.
19 THE COURT: 67?
20 MR. KARAS: 310-1 through 310-67. Can you tell us
21 what those are?
22 A Yes, I can. These are computer diskettes that were taken
23 from the home in Nairobi.
24 Q And with respect to the exhibits you've just described,
25 are they in substantially the same condition as when they were
1085
1 first found?
2 A Yes, they are.
3 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we would offer
4 Government Exhibits 301, 302, 303, and 310-1 through 310-67.
5 THE COURT: Received.
6 (Government's Exhibits 301, 302, 303, and 310-1
7 through 310-67 received in evidence)
8 Q Now, Agent Coleman, were there any other objects seized
9 during this search?
10 A Yes. There were audio cassettes.
11 Q Where were those found?
12 A They're in a building directly behind the main building
13 which contained a small apartment and a garage. The cassettes
14 were found in the apartment.
15 Q Can you tell us how long the search lasted?
16 A Approximately an hour.
17 Q And after the search was completed where did you and the
18 Kenya officials go?
19 A We went to the police station at the Kenyata International
20 Airport in Nairobi.
21 Q What did you do after you got to the Kenyata International
22 Airport?
23 A I gave the computer to a computer technician for an
24 examination and I began to make copies of the paper documents
25 that I had obtained.
1086
1 Q What do you do with the disks?
2 A I also gave the disks to the computer technician.
3 MR. KARAS: May I approach the witness?
4 THE COURT: Yes.
5 Q Now, Agent Coleman, while you were photocopying the paper
6 documents that were seized from Feda Estates, did anybody hand
7 you any other documents to photocopy?
8 A Another agent gave me a stack of documents.
9 Q And did you make a photocopy of those documents?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 Q I placed before you what has been marked for
12 identification as Government Exhibits 314 and ask you to take
13 a look at that.
14 A Yes.
15 Q Can you tell us what that is?
16 A This is the passport, the American passport of Mr. El
17 Hage.
18 Q Is it a photocopy of it?
19 A Yes, it is.
20 Q Did you make the photocopy of the photocopy of the
21 passport?
22 A I made a copy of a copy. I did not copy the original.
23 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we offer
24 Government Exhibit 314.
25 THE COURT: Received.
1087
1 (Government's Exhibit 314 received in evidence)
2 Q Will you turn to Government Exhibit 315 and tell us what
3 that is?
4 A It's a copy of a plane ticket for Mr. El Hage.
5 Q And 316?
6 A 316 is a receipt from a hotel in Karachi, again for Mr. El
7 Hage.
8 Q And 317?
9 A Is a copy of a small ring binder notebook.
10 Q Did you make all those copies?
11 A Again, I made copies of copies. I did not copy the
12 originals.
13 MR. KARAS: At this time, your Honor, we offer
14 Government Exhibits 315, 316, and 317.
15 THE COURT: Received.
16 (Government's Exhibits 315, 316 and 317 received in
17 evidence)
18 Q With respect to the computer technician, did you see what
19 he did with the laptop computer marked as 300?
20 A Yes, I did.
21 Q What did he do?
22 A He worked on it with his equipment, and produced a, what
23 he called a mirror image of the computer for me.
24 Q And what, if anything, did you see him do with the disks?
25 A He copied several of the disks on to new diskettes and
1088
1 gave me those copies.
2 Q Now, I placed before you what have been marked for
3 identification as Government Exhibits 310-68 through 310-74.
4 I ask you to take look at them.
5 A Yes.
6 Q What are they?
7 A These are the computer diskettes he gave me on that day.
8 Q Do your initials appear on them?
9 A Yes, they did.
10 Q Your Honor, at this time we offer Government Exhibits
11 310-68 through 310-74.
12 THE COURT: Received.
13 (Government's Exhibits 310-68 through 310-74 received
14 in evidence)
15 MR. KARAS: No further questions.
16 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, perhaps if we could have a
17 break.
18 THE COURT: We'll take our mid-morning break.
19 (Continued on next page)
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1089
1 (Jury not present)
2 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I would like to note the
3 issue of the Kenyan warrant with this witness for the purpose
4 of credibility and for the purpose of potential argument that
5 we may make that we don't cross-examine the witness on
6 something that we believe we should be permitted to cross him
7 on, and it goes to as we argued yesterday. It goes to
8 credibility, because this witness saw the Kenyan warrant
9 before the execution of the search, and it said for stolen
10 property and we believe that there is no basis for that and
11 this witness knew that, yet was content to let the Kenyan
12 agents lie to the Kenyan court. It has nothing to do with the
13 legality of the search. It goes to the credibility and
14 disposition as to his willingness to let the Kenyan police lie
15 to the Kenyan court.
16 MR. KARAS: Judge, there is no testimony, nor is
17 there any reason to believe there will be testimony about what
18 Agent Coleman could say the Kenyan officials told the Kenyan
19 magistrate. The fact that he was shown the warrant says
20 nothing by itself as to what it was that was said to any
21 Magistrate.
22 In fact, the 3500 material that's presented, 3504-7
23 at the second paragraph, Agent Coleman swore an affidavit that
24 he believed then and he believes now that the Kenyan officials
25 went to court in Kenyan and obtained the warrant from the
1090
1 Kenyan judge. That's all he says. He doesn't say what they
2 represented to the Judge, and he doesn't say that he has any
3 reason to believe either that they misrepresented facts to the
4 Kenyan judge or that the Kenyan warrant was invalid, not to
5 mention the fact that the validity or the legality of the
6 Kenyan presence at the search is irrelevant to the
7 authentication of the exhibits that he just presented or his
8 credibility in testifying that these exhibits are basically
9 the ones that were seized that day in the house.
10 MR. DRATEL: Judge, I was shown a copy of the warrant
11 which I assume that the Kenyan officials had obtained. In
12 addition, your Honor, what came out is that during the
13 suppression motion was that in order to get the Kenyan
14 officials to participate there had to be a Kenyan warrant.
15 We believe that this agent knew of that in advance.
16 If he didn't know in advance he just says no, but the point is
17 did he know about it in advance, and we should be permitted to
18 argue at the appropriate time that people who performed this
19 investigation and conducted it were willing to lie to get
20 evidence including --
21 THE COURT: The key phrase in what you've just said
22 is, at the appropriate time, and the appropriate time would be
23 some occasion when those issues would be relevant, the
24 credibility of this witness might be relevant but all of this
25 has nothing to do with the authentication of these documents.
1091
1 If at some point you wish to call this witness as a defense
2 witness, because you believe that the matters to which you
3 referred to are relevant to some issue on the defense, I will
4 entertain an application at that time, but as I stated
5 yesterday, I don't see any nexus between the validity of the
6 Kenyan warrant or the circumstances surrounding the obtaining
7 of the Kenyan warrant and the testimony of this witness.
8 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, he testified not only about
9 the authentication. He testified about the search, about the
10 premise. He also said the Kenyan officials were there. The
11 government should not be permitted to limit the scope just by
12 not asking the question. They put that in play by putting
13 that on the record. There is a distorted context not going to
14 that.
15 THE COURT: As I said, you will have an opportunity
16 at some appropriate time to recall this witness, and if any of
17 these matters are relevant to the defendant's case I'll
18 entertain them, but all that has happened is that this witness
19 has authenticated these documents.
20 MR. BAUGH: Your Honor, if I might, then I would move
21 to strike the answer and the question: Who used that
22 apartment? Because that's not authentication. And I was
23 under the impression counsel was going to handle that on
24 credibility issue in this conspiracy case. That witness was
25 asked who used that apartment, who he said Wadih El Hage among
1092
1 others, and that is not authentication. I move to strike that
2 then based on the ruling here.
3 MR. KARAS: That's fine, Judge.
4 THE COURT: You have no objection to that?
5 MR. KARAS: I don't have a problem with that.
6 THE COURT: Granted without objection. I'll so
7 instruct the jury when they return. We'll take a five-minute
8 recess.
9 (Recess)
10 (In open court; jury not present)
11 THE COURT: All right. When the jury returns I will
12 instruct the jury that on motion by the defendants and with
13 the consent of the government there is stricken from the
14 testimony of the witness the question of whose premises did he
15 understand were the subject of the search and his response, El
16 Hage and others.
17 Is that acceptable? Mr. Dratel, you plan to
18 cross-examine this witness?
19 MR. DRATEL: Yes.
20 THE COURT: May I inquire as to the scope of your
21 cross-examination?
22 MR. DRATEL: Yes, your Honor. I intend to ask him
23 about some of the factors respecting the execution of the
24 warrant, who was there, who was giving direction to whom in
25 terms of the --
1093
1 THE COURT: You know I have great difficulty with
2 that. The documents were offered in evidence. There was no
3 objection. I paused, waited. There was no objection. They
4 have been received. Now you are going to cross-examine him as
5 to what?
6 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, he said certain people were
7 there. I would like to identify certain of those people who
8 were there in the house. That's number one.
9 Number two is that also with respect to the passport
10 issue, I think in terms of how that was received, and the
11 context in which that was received I think is also something
12 in terms of that they knew Mr. El Hage would not be there.
13 They knew where he was and they went to meet him if the
14 airport and while this agent did not specifically get the
15 passport from Mr. El Hage, he knew exactly why the passport
16 was taken from Mr. El Hage and where it went.
17 THE COURT: Is there an issue as to the authenticity
18 of the documents?
19 MR. DRATEL: No, your Honor, but the point is, we
20 would like the chain of custody in terms of how the document
21 was obtained, is something that this witness testified to.
22 THE COURT: There is no question as to the
23 authenticity but there is an issue as to the chain of custody?
24 MR. DRATEL: What I'm saying, your Honor, is we just
25 want to establish how the passport was obtained. We dispensed
1094
1 with another witness in order to have this witness short cut
2 this particular process.
3 THE COURT: Is that the case?
4 MR. KARAS: Judge, I think I can talk to Mr. Dratel.
5 We may stipulate as to how the passport was obtained.
6 THE COURT: Why don't you attempt to do that.
7 (Pause)
8 MR. FITZGERALD: Judge, to save time there are some
9 in limine matters regarding the next witness that do not need
10 to be addressed. I think we can start the witness and we can
11 address the in limine matter at the next break so we don't
12 delay the jury.
13 (Pause)
14 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, we have a stipulation with
15 respect to some of the aspects. Some of the other aspects
16 which I spoke to Mr. Karas about the government will not
17 object to. There is one area that I would cross him on that
18 the government does object to, so we might as well deal with
19 that now.
20 THE COURT: What is that?
21 MR. DRATEL: With respect to Mr. El Hage was given a
22 receipt by one of the Kenyan officers for the property. Agent
23 Coleman saw that occur. He acknowledged that. Following that
24 Mr. El Hage contacted the government, US government to try to
25 get those documents back because they were his address books
1095
1 his business cards, everything he had, and he wanted to do
2 that before leaving Kenya and returning to the United States.
3 He was led to believe by the government that in fact
4 the Kenyans perhaps had it, and the US was working with the
5 Kenyans to tr to get that back to Mr. El Hage, and that during
6 the period of time Mr. El Hage was in contact with the
7 government giving them his travel plans which were accurate,
8 and they met him at the airport in New York, and copied
9 further documents and then returned them.
10 THE COURT: There is obviously a conflict between
11 striking who occupied the premises and that line of
12 cross-examination, assuming this witness is knowledgeable.
13 MR. DRATEL: If he doesn't know, he doesn't know,
14 your Honor.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 MR. KARAS: Judge, the only issue I have with
17 Mr. Dratel is getting what happened at JFK Airport upon Mr. El
18 Hage's arrival there. I think that goes beyond the scope of
19 what this witness testified to.
20 THE COURT: Bring in the jury and the witness.
21 (Continued on next page)
22
23
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1096
1 (Jury present; witness resumed)
2 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, from time to time I
3 may order that a certain question or certain answer be
4 stricken. In that case you are to understand that to be
5 disregarded as if the words were never spoken.
6 On motion of the defendants and with the consent of
7 the government there is stricken from evidence the question
8 asked of this witness as to who he understood to be the
9 occupant of the premises that were searched and the witness'
10 response to that question.
11 Cross-examination on behalf of defendant El Hage.
12 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, one quick item. We have an
13 agreement by the parties that Government Exhibit 308 was
14 mistakenly not included among the exhibits to be offered into
15 evidence. This was an exhibit Mr. Coleman testified about.
16 THE COURT: You are now offering it and it is
17 stipulated it may be received.
18 MR. DRATEL: Yes, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Very well, 308 received.
20 (Government's Exhibit 308 received in evidence)
21 MR. DRATEL: Thank you cross.
22 CROSS-EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. DRATEL:
24 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Coleman.
25 A Good afternoon.
1097
1 Q You testified that the search of 1523 Feda Estates
2 occurred August 21, 1997?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And the Nairobi bombing occurred August, 1998, is that
5 correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q So the search that you performed was a full year before
8 the Nairobi bombing, correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And you also said other persons were on the premises at
11 the time that you searched, correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Mrs. El Hage, Mr. El Hage's wife was there, correct?
14 A Yes, she was.
15 Q And Mr. El Hage's six children were present as well,
16 correct?
17 A Yes, they were.
18 Q And Mr. El Hage's mother-in-law was there as well,
19 correct?
20 A Yes, she was.
21 Q You had the Kenyan police with you?
22 A Yes, I did.
23 Q And, in fact, though there was a United States law
24 enforcement search, correct? Withdrawn.
25 The search was at the behest of the United States
1098
1 correct?
2 MR. KARAS: Objection.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 Q You provided direction to the Kenyan agents during the
5 search?
6 MR. KARAS: Objection.
7 THE COURT: No. I'll allow that.
8 A Yes, I did.
9 Q You, after the search -- withdrawn. You left something of
10 your own at the premises during the search, correct?
11 A Yes, I did.
12 Q Did you leave the notebook?
13 A Yes, I did.
14 Q And the following day you met with Mr. El Hage and he
15 returned the notebook to you?
16 A Yes, he did.
17 Q And that meeting was at the Grand Regency Hotel in
18 Nairobi?
19 A Yes, it was.
20 Q Now, with respect to the documents and the items that you
21 seized that have been put in evidence during your direct
22 testimony, you testified that the computer was in
23 substantially the same condition as when you had seized it,
24 correct?
25 A Yes.
1099
1 Q You mean externally, correct?
2 A I have no ability to judge its internal capacity.
3 Q So that would be you don't have anything whether it is
4 substantially the same internally?
5 A I have no way to determine that.
6 Q With respect to the business cards, the business card book
7 you put leads out or traces out on the information in those
8 business cards?
9 A Yes, we did.
10 Q Also with respect to the documents and the items that you
11 testified about on direct, you took the originals and you sent
12 them to the United States?
13 A I didn't send them to the United States. I left, they
14 were still in Kenya when I left.
15 Q But they were sent to the United States?
16 A Yes, they were.
17 Q And you received, and you had access to them back in the
18 United States when you returned?
19 A Yes, I did.
20 Q For purposes of your investigation?
21 A Yes.
22 Q That included the original computer itself, correct?
23 A Yes, it did.
24 Q All that the computer technician did was make a mirror of
25 the hard drive, correct?
1100
1 A Yes.
2 Q He did not keep any of the actual computer disks? Those
3 were sent back?
4 A Those were sent back.
5 Q During the search, at the conclusion of the search you
6 witnessed one of the Kenyan officers providing Mr. El Hage's
7 wife with an inventory of the documents of the items that were
8 taken, correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And when you spoke to Mr. El Hage the next day he wanted
11 those back, business cards, address books, things of that
12 nature?
13 MR. KARAS: Objection.
14 THE COURT: I'll allow it.
15 A Yes, he did.
16 Q And he was told in fact that the US government was working
17 with the Kenyans to try to get that back, correct?
18 MR. KARAS: Objection, your Honor, as to was told.
19 MR. DRATEL: I'll rephrase it, your Honor.
20 Q Did either you or someone else a colleague of yours in the
21 United States government inform Mr. El Hage that the US
22 government was working with the Kenyan police to try to get
23 those items back to him as quickly as possible?
24 A I didn't tell him that. One of my colleagues might have.
25 Q You don't know one way or the other?
1101
1 A I'm not sure.
2 Q And were you aware that Mr. El Hage and your colleagues
3 were discussing Mr. El Hage's travel plans back to the United
4 States at that time?
5 MR. KARAS: Objection.
6 THE COURT: Sustained.
7 Q It's true, is it not, that the Kenyans never had
8 possession of any of the items that were seized, that the
9 United States, that is, you and your colleague had possession
10 of the items you put in evidence that were seized at the
11 residence?
12 A No.
13 MR. KARAS: Objection as to form, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: You may answer.
15 A No, that's not true. The Kenyans did have possession.
16 Q Well, they took possession, the Kenyans actually seized it
17 in the premises?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And then they took it back to a Kenyan police station,
20 correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Did the Kenyans perform any analysis of the materials?
23 A No, they did not.
24 Q They turned them other over directly to you, correct?
25 A They did, and when I left they remained at the Kenyan
1102
1 police station.
2 Q Did you make any copies for the Kenyans?
3 A I didn't.
4 Q Do you know of anyone who did?
5 A I'm not sure.
6 Q With respect to --
7 Yes, your Honor, if may have a moment?
8 THE COURT: Yes.
9 (Pause)
10 Q So you don't know that any copies were made for the
11 Kenyans?
12 A No, I don't.
13 MR. DRATEL: I have nothing further, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Any further inquiry?
15 MR. KARAS: No, your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Thank you. You may step down.
17 (Witness excused)
18 The government may call the next witness.
19 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, if I may just have one
20 stipulation that I'll announce between the government and the
21 defense, that the three items, three additional items that
22 were not seized at the premises, the passport, plane tickets,
23 the address book and the hotel receipt that were seized from
24 Mr. El Hage were seized from Mr. El Hage at Kenyata
25 International Airport in Nairobi the evening of August 21,
1103
1 1997 and were returned to him. They were copied by the
2 government and returned to him.
3 THE COURT: Tell me again what three items are?
4 MR. DRATEL: The four items, your Honor. Mr. El
5 Hage's United States passport, plane ticket and address book,
6 and the hotel receipt. I believe they are, 313, 314, 315,
7 316, 317.
8 MR. KARAS: Correct.
9 THE COURT: It is stipulated that they were taken
10 from Mr. El Hage at the Kenyata airport, photographed and
11 returned to him. Is that the stipulation?
12 MR. DRATEL: Yes, your Honor, that same day, August
13 21, 1997.
14 THE COURT: August 21, 1997.
15 MR. DRATEL: They have been admitted already.
16 THE COURT: They were already admitted. Very well.
17 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, the government would now
18 call L'Houssaine Kherchtou, and the witness will affirm.
19 L'HOUSSAINE KHERCHTOU,
20 called as a witness by the government,
21 having been duly affirmed, testified as follows:
22 THE DEPUTY CLERK:
23 DIRECT EXAMINATION
24 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
25 Q Your full name, sir.
1104
1 A My name is L'Houssaine Kherchtou you.
2 Q Keep your voice up. It's a big room you have a soft voice
3 and the air conditioner is running.
4 A L apostrophe H-O-U-S-S-A-I-N-E.
5 Q Spell your last name next.
6 A K-H-E-R-C-H-T-O-U.
7 Q Mr. Kherchtou, can you tell the jury where you were born?
8 MR. SCHMIDT: Excuse me, your Honor, if I may. Could
9 you move the document on top of your Honor's bench. Otherwise
10 I can't see.
11 THE COURT: What document?
12 A I was born in Morocco in May 15, 1964.
13 Q You have to keep your voice up a little bit louder, and it
14 may help if you sit closer to the directional microphone,
15 point it right at you, and if you see anyone in the courtroom
16 with their hands to their ear it may be an indication you need
17 to speak louder.
18 You may not know that the air conditioner is on that
19 makes it harder because you have a soft voice.
20 A I said I was born in Morocco in May 15, 1964.
21 Q Can you tell the jury how far you went to school in
22 Morocco?
23 A Well, at seven years old I went to primary school. Then
24 secondary school, and in, when I finished my high school I
25 went to catering school.
1105
1 Q And for how long did you go to the catering school after
2 high school?
3 A It was for three years. In between in second year I went
4 for three months training in France in the northwest of the
5 France.
6 Q Can you tell us what year you graduated from catering
7 school?
8 A I don't exactly remember, probably 1987.
9 Q And what religion were you raised in when you grew up in
10 Morocco?
11 A I am a Muslim Sunni.
12 Q A Sunni Muslim?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Can you tell the jury what languages you spoke growing up
15 in Morocco?
16 A Yeah. My first language was Berber, because my parents
17 are Berber, and Arabic and French.
18 Q And you say Berber, is that B-E-R-B-E-R, Berber?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Besides speaking Arabic, Berber and French, did you ever
21 learn another language later on in life?
22 A Yes, I learn English in high school.
23 Q And you could testify in English, but if you have a
24 problem understanding what I say will you use the services of
25 the interpreter?
1106
1 A Okay.
2 Q Seated to your right. Did there come a time that you
3 worked in France after you graduated from catering school?
4 A Yes, in 1989 I moved to France, I emigrate to France.
5 Then I was working for a job there, I found a job in bakeries
6 and later on in Corsica, in France, too, I work for about six
7 or seven months.
8 Q Did there come a time when you left Corsica and moved to
9 another country?
10 A Yes. I left Corsica. I sneaked to Italy.
11 Q What do you mean when you say sneaking to Italy?
12 A It means I didn't had a visa to go to Italy. That's why I
13 just went with other people through the mountains and we were
14 in Italy.
15 Q Once you got into Italy where did you go within Italy?
16 A Well, in Italy, at the beginning I visited main cities
17 from Napoli to Rome. Then at the end I settled down in
18 Milano, or Milan.
19 Q And did you learn the Italian language?
20 A Yes, I did. It was mandate that way to have a job to
21 learn the language first.
22 Q And did you become familiar with a person by the name of
23 Anwar Shaban?
24 A Yes, Sheik Anwar Shaban was managing the Islamic Cultural
25 Institute so I used to go there every weekend.
1107
1 Q And can you tell the jury what city the Islamic Cultural
2 Institute was located in?
3 A It was in Milano.
4 Q And did there come a time when you left Italy to go to
5 another country?
6 A Yes. I think the 23rd of January, January 23rd, 1991 I
7 left Italy to Pakistan.
8 Q And can you tell the jury why it was you in January 1991
9 that you went from Italy to Pakistan?
10 A Why the date or?
11 Q No, why did you do that?
12 A Well, I went normally to Afghanistan, but they said we
13 have to go to Pakistan to go to Afghanistan.
14 Q Can you tell the jury why you wanted to go to Afghanistan?
15 A Well, at that time many people they were coming from all
16 over the world towards Afghanistan to help Muslims there, and
17 I was one of them.
18 Q When you went from Italy to Afghanistan did you travel
19 alone or with others?
20 A No, I was with other four people.
21 Q And do you recall the names of any of the other four
22 people that traveled with you?
23 A I remember a friend called Abu Ahmed el Masri.
24 Q So we're clear, do you know a person by the name of Abu
25 Ubaidah al Banshiri?
1108
1 A Yes, I know.
2 Q The person you traveled with from Italy to Pakistan on a
3 plane, Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri, is that the same person or a
4 different person Abu Ubaidah al Rashidi?
5 A No, it's a different person. That person was my age.
6 He's younger than Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri.
7 Q Focus on el Masry who traveled with you, did he have an
8 occupation?
9 A Yes, he was a veterainian or animal doctor.
10 THE COURT: What was he?
11 THE WITNESS: Veterainian.
12 THE COURT: Veterinarian.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Veterinarian.
14 A Veterinarian, sorry.
15 Q If I can ask that Government Exhibit 114 be displayed only
16 to the witness and counsel.
17 Do you recognize the person depicted in Government
18 Exhibit 114 for identification?
19 A Yes, that's Abu Mohamed el Masry.
20 Q And is that a fair and accurate picture of the person you
21 knew as Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri the, animal doctor?
22 A Yes.
23 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I would offer Government
24 Exhibit 114 at this time.
25 THE COURT: Received.
1109
1 (Government's Exhibit 114 received in evidence.
2 Q Now, can you tell the jury how you got a visa to go to
3 Pakistan when you were in Italy in 1991?
4 A Well, we got a visa from Rome, from the Pakistan embassy
5 through Sheik Anwar Shaban. He took our passport and he gave
6 them to Abu Ubaidah, this guy, and he was the one who went to
7 Rome and took a visa Tabliri people.
8 Q You mentioned T-A-B-L-I-R-I. Can you explain to the
9 people what Tabliri people are?
10 A Well, at that time those who went to Pakistan legally have
11 to get this visa in order to go to Pakistan. The easiest way
12 is to apply for Tabliri. Tabliri means some Muslims who are
13 preaching Islam everywhere, and they have an annual meeting in
14 Pakistan. That's why when you ask for that visa they just
15 give you the visa to go to Pakistan.
16 Q And was it your intention, did you intend actually to go
17 there as a Tabliri or some different reason?
18 A No, it was thought to go to Afghanistan the reason.
19 Q Now, where in Pakistan did you go?
20 A Well, we reach Karachi, and we meet the plane going to
21 Peshawar. Then we took another plane to Islamabad, and from
22 Islamabad we took another plane to Bait al Ansar, Peshawar.
23 Q And what happened when you arrived in Peshawar?
24 A Well, in Peshawar we met a guy called Abu from emirates,
25 and he the guy who took us to --
1110
1 Q You said he was from emirates, are you referring to the
2 United Arab Emirates?
3 A Yes.
4 Q You said you went to Bait al Ansar. Can you tell the jury
5 what happened when you arrived at Bait al Ansar in Peshawar?
6 A Well, Bait al Ansar was a guest house in which whenever
7 you reach Peshawar the first day you have to go there because
8 you find all the people there. The first thing you do is you
9 take all your valuable things like passports, money, whatever
10 things you have.
11 Then they give you, they put it in a safe place, they
12 give you a number, and they let you know many things about
13 Afghanistan, why you are here, how long you have your time for
14 training, and which camp you are going to be trained in, and
15 if you have clothes they let you know that you have to buy
16 Afghan clothes in Afghanistan, and if you have money you can
17 buy that in the store. If you don't have money, they just
18 provide you with clothes.
19 Q And what name did you go by when you were at Bait al Ansar
20 in Peshawar?
21 A I was, I have a nickname Abu Zaid Maghrebi.
22 Q First, can you tell the jury what al Maghrebi means?
23 A It means the Morrocan, because you find Abu from another
24 country so Abu Maghrebi. That's why you have to specify your
25 country.
1111
1 Q And you indicated that you were asked how long you
2 intended to spend in Afghanistan. What did you tell the
3 people at Bait al Ansar as to how long you intended to stay in
4 Afghanistan?
5 A My time was open. That's what I told them I can stay
6 whatever.
7 Q And what happened? Did you stay in Bait al Ansar?
8 A I think we stayed two, three days, just for prepare
9 ourselves and for other people to come in, and I don't
10 remember who in Bait al Ansar provide us small van of 15
11 people. Then they gave us a date in the morning to go to
12 another city in Pakistan called Miram Shah.
13 Q And how long roughly did it take to go from Peshawar
14 Pakistan to Miram Shah, Pakistan?
15 A I don't remember exactly. Probably five hours or six
16 hours.
17 Q And what was the method of transportation?
18 A It's a minivan.
19 Q And what happened when you got to Miram Shah, Pakistan?
20 A When you got there is another guest house in Miram Shah,
21 and we stayed there a few hours waiting for the car to come
22 from the camp that we choose.
23 Q What was the name of the camp that you chose?
24 A I choose al Farouq camp.
25 Q Did you go to the Al Farouq camp?
1112
1 A Yes, I did.
2 Q And how long, how long a drive was this from the Miram
3 Shah place to guest house to the Farouq camp?
4 A It wasn't that far, but because of the road wasn't good it
5 took I think one hour or roughly one hour and one hour and a
6 half.
7 Q And do you know the name of the biggest city that is near
8 the Farouq camp in Afghanistan?
9 A The city Khost the big city.
10 Q And can you tell the jury what happened the first night
11 you arrived in Farouq camp in Afghanistan?
12 A We arrived there around 6 o'clock in the afternoon, and
13 normally they gave us a place where to stay, a tent or room or
14 something, but I didn't find a place for me.
15 Then they told me to spend the night in the mosque
16 with other people, and during the night there was a shooting
17 and big fire everywhere, and it was around 1 o'clock. Then we
18 came out from the mosque and all people were in the meeting
19 there. It's a matter of welcoming us to the camp.
20 Q The shooting was not an attack by other people. That was
21 a welcome to the camp?
22 A Yeah, it was a welcome to the camp. Just they want us to
23 know that the next life was so hard that's why you have to be
24 prepared. Don't think that you are coming to sleep in the
25 camp.
1113
1 Q And how long did you spend at the Farouq camp?
2 A The normal time two months.
3 Q Can you tell us what you did during the two months at the
4 Farouq camp?
5 A Well, we were trained for how to use the arms, and mines
6 explosives and antiaircraft weapons.
7 Q Can you tell us what type of light weapons you were
8 trained in?
9 A Well, in Farouq camp normally it's a camp divided in three
10 parts. The first part, the first part is about --
11 MR. WILFORD: I'm going to object to the witness
12 saying "normally." That's what he learned at that particular
13 time.
14 THE COURT: All right. Just answer the question.
15 Q Can you just tell us about the time that you went through
16 as a person being trained in Farouq camp how it worked?
17 A Well, when I went there we spent in the first part almost
18 a month and we trained in that first part we trained on the
19 light weapons, like AK-47, M-16, BK, and some pistol and some
20 other light weapons like Uzi and others.
21 Q Did there come a time when you used weapons other than the
22 light weapons such as the rifle the Uzi you talked about?
23 A Yeah. We spent a month there in that place. Then after
24 that we moved to another, the second place, called al Hulia,
25 in which we learned how to use explosives different type of
1114
1 explosives, and mines.
2 Q You mentioned H-U-L-I-A. Was this in a different camp or
3 was this a different part of the Farouq camp?
4 A No, it's inside the camp but the camp the training session
5 is divided in three parts. The first part in which we spent a
6 month, the second part it called al Hulia.
7 Q Can you tell us what type of explosives you trained in al
8 Hulia?
9 A It was a briefing with different types of explosive like
10 C3, C4, dynamite, and I don't remember.
11 Q Did you have any training in detonators?
12 A Yes. They had two type of detonator, electric ones and
13 explosive ones.
14 Q You mentioned mines. What type of mines were you trained
15 in?
16 A Many different types of mines. Personal mines and
17 antitank mines, and antitruck mines, yes, and the butterfly
18 mines, other green one.
19 Q And for how long did you spend in that part of the camp
20 where you trained in explosives and mines?
21 A Almost 15 days.
22 Q And where did you go next?
23 A Then you get, you go next to the third part, it's the
24 mountain. It's because it's a small hill in the same camp
25 called the mountain.
1115
1 Q And what were you trained in at the mountain?
2 A We were trained about antiaircraft weapons like Zukiak I
3 think Albia 7 was actually --
4 Q You mentioned Zukiak. What's a Zukiak?
5 A It's an antiaircraft weapon.
6 THE INTERPRETER: It's a weapon that has two ends to
7 it.
8 Q It's an antiaircraft weapon?
9 A Bullets come out of the that. The bullets come out and we
10 normally used against aircraft.
11 Q Did you receive any training in grenades at any time
12 during your two months in the Farouq camp?
13 A Yes, I think grenade we took with explosives.
14 Q Did you do any physical exercise during the two months
15 that you were in Farouq camp?
16 A Well, in Farouq camp you have exercise that you have to do
17 that we used to do every morning after the first prayer, just
18 we prepare ourselves and we go for exercising for one hour and
19 one hour and a half, sometimes two hours.
20 Q And how did your physical appearance change after the two
21 months in Farouq camp?
22 A Well, after the end of training everybody physical change.
23 Myself I lost a lot of weight.
24 Q Do you know approximately how much weight you lost?
25 A Approximately twenty kilograms, 25, I don't remember
1116
1 exactly.
2 Q Forty or fifty pounds?
3 A Yeah, it was in kilograms is there.
4 Q And during the time that you were being trained in the
5 Farouq camp, yes or no, did you know whether or not you were
6 being observed as to your ability at that time?
7 A No.
8 Q Did you later become a trainer at the camp?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And when you were trainer at the camp did you observe the
11 students at that training camp?
12 A When I was a trainer we don't observe people, but they
13 knew that we did that in Farouq camp.
14 Q Now, you mentioned before that when you were at Peshawar
15 you went by the name Abu aid al Maghrebi. What name did you
16 go by in the Farouq camp?
17 A Yes, I change the name to Abu Talal.
18 Q Can you tell the jury why it was that you changed your
19 name when you went by Abu Talal?
20 A There is another Abu Maghrebi inside the camp. He came
21 before me. That's why they don't want to be confused, they
22 told me to change the name because I came after him.
23 Q And are you familiar with the term emir?
24 A Yeah, I'm familiar with.
25 Q What does emir mean?
1117
1 A It means responsible or the manager of the camp.
2 Q Who was the emir of Farouq camp at the time that you were
3 there?
4 A A guy called by Shuaib.
5 Q What happened after you finished your training at the
6 Farouq camp?
7 A So we left the camp and from Miram Shah we have to go to
8 Peshawar.
9 Q When you were at the Miram Shah during the stop on your
10 way to Peshawar, did anyone approach you to discuss any topic
11 with you?
12 A Well, at the Miram Shah guest house this was outside Miram
13 Shah guest house, the emir of Farouq camp called me and to
14 same Abu el Masry who was friend with me and other two people
15 and they told us that if we like to join al Qaeda works for
16 Islamic.
17 Q Now, the person who approached you, Shuaib, was the person
18 who was in charge of the camp?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And were the other people that were approached was Abu
21 Ubaidah, the veterinarian?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And did he ask you for a decision that day whether or not
24 you would join al Qaeda?
25 A No. He just let us know and he told us if you need more
1118
1 details about al Qaeda and how to join it in Peshawar you will
2 learn a lot of things there.
3 Q And did you go?
4 A Yes, we went to Peshawar.
5 Q And where in Peshawar did you go?
6 A I went to where my clothes and my stuff are.
7 Q Did you go to any place else after you picked up your
8 clothes at Bait al Ansar?
9 A Yes. When he told us that about joining al Qaeda it's
10 like we agreed, but we didn't have the final decision. When
11 we went to Bait al Ansar a guy call, come from, came from Bait
12 al Salaam and he took us and our luggage.
13 Q The second place is Bait al Salaam?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Does Bait mean house?
16 A Bait means house, yes.
17 Q And what happened when you got to Bait al Salaam?
18 A Well, we did the same thing at Bait al Salaam. He gave us
19 again our valuable things passport and money to a person there
20 and he gave us a number take in the safe.
21 Q Did you discuss al Qaeda with any of the people at the
22 place called Bait al Salaam?
23 A Bait al Salaam is al Qaeda guest house. Everybody is
24 there from al Qaeda, everybody is talking about al Qaeda
25 there. We ask many people.
1119
1 Q And did you make the final decision to join al Qaeda or
2 not while you were at Bait al Salaam?
3 A Yes, we made the decision to join them there.
4 Q And did you actually join al Qaeda in Bait al Salaam?
5 A No.
6 Q Tell the jury how you went about joining al Qaeda?
7 A So from Bait al Salaam we decided to go to the front to
8 the Khost front, and in Bait al Salaam told us to go to Miram
9 Shah and we meet somebody there to make a bayat or to join al
10 Qaeda.
11 Q And did you go to Miram Shah?
12 A Yes, we went to Miram Shah.
13 Q You said "we." Who was with you that you recall?
14 A From Bait al Salaam we were many people that went there,
15 they were going to the front. But when I say "we," it was Abu
16 Ubaidah.
17 Q If you call the animal doctor make it easier?
18 A Okay.
19 Q Can you tell us approximately what year and what time of
20 year if you remember that you and Abu Ubaidah, the animal
21 doctor, went to Miram Shah?
22 A Probably April. April 1991.
23 Q And can you tell us what happened when the two of you got
24 to Miram Shah?
25 A So we arrived to Miram Shah guest house we met a guy
1120
1 called a Abu Ahmed al Harbi. We met him there and he took us
2 to his room, and he was, he explained many things about
3 joining al Qaeda, and he gave us a paper in which written in
4 Arabic. It's like a swear to join al Qaeda.
5 Q Can you tell us as best you recall what Abu Ahmed al Harbi
6 told you about al Qaeda during that meeting?
7 A Well, he told us that al Qaeda is a group of Muslims were
8 join to fight for Islam, and to do the good things for Islam
9 and Muslims all over the world.
10 Q Did he tell you who formed al Qaeda?
11 A What?
12 Q Did he tell at that time who had formed the group al
13 Qaeda?
14 A Yeah, he said that the emir.
15 Q Explain what that means or tell the interpreter what that
16 means?
17 A Well, is Islamic word for the manager but it's religious,
18 more religious than. That why I mean you have obey that man
19 and you have to follow his orders as far as they are to
20 benefit Islam and as far as they are not against something
21 Islam.
22 Q Did you actually make a bayat at Miram Shah that day?
23 A Yes, I made the bayat by reading that paper and swearing
24 in front of and signing the paper.
25 Q And did you come to learn what structure of the al Qaeda,
1121
1 who was the boss and who worked under him?
2 A Well, at that time I didn't know many people in al Qaeda
3 but I only knew that Usama Bin Laden is the emir, and Abu
4 Banshiri is number two, and Abu Hafs is the third one.
5 Q And can you tell us what name you new Usama Bin Laden by
6 besides his true name?
7 A Well, he's known by Abu Abdullah, Shaykh Abdulla or
8 sometimes Sheik Usama.
9 Q And what names was Abu Ubaidah known by to you, not just
10 in 1991, but taking us forward?
11 A Sheik Abu Banshiri or Karim or Jalal.
12 Q You mentioned Karim, K-A-R-I-M. And where was it that you
13 knew Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri by the name?
14 A It was in Kenya, Nairobi.
15 Q And you mentioned the name Jalal. Where was it that knew
16 Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri by the name of Jalal?
17 A It was in Kenya.
18 Q If I could display to the witness what's been previously
19 received in evidence as Government Exhibit 100. Do you
20 recognize the person depicted in Government Exhibit 100?
21 A Yeah, that's Sheik Abdullah.
22 Q And can you display 101. Do you recognize that person?
23 A Yeah, that's Sheik Abu Hafs.
24 Q And who is Sheik Abu Hafs?
25 A He's number three of al Qaeda and he is responsible for
1122
1 wing, military wing of al Qaeda.
2 Q Did you know Sheik Abu Hafs by any other name?
3 A Sometimes they call him Khaeik Abu Fatim.
4 Q Will you display to the witness Government Exhibit 103?
5 Do you recognize the person in Government Exhibit 103?
6 A That's Sheik Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri.
7 Q And you mentioned that he was known as Jalal and Karim.
8 Did you ever learn his true name?
9 A Yes, I learned his true name after his death from the
10 newspapers.
11 Q Only from the newspaper?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Now, returning to al Qaeda structure, did you come to
14 learn whether that al Qaeda had any committees?
15 A Excuse me?
16 Q You mentioned before that Abu Hafs was in charge of the
17 military wing of al Qaeda?
18 A Yes.
19 Q How many different groups or committees or wings were
20 there under al Qaeda as you recall?
21 A Well, there is a military committee. There is economy
22 committee. And there is and the military committee, and
23 another committee I have to use the translator.
24 THE COURT: Are you saying economic?
25 THE WITNESS: Economic, yes.
1123
1 THE INTERPRETER: It's the legal, the legal
2 committee. It's the legal committee which is responsible for
3 teaching religion, and anything legal to do with religion.
4 THE COURT: The record should show that the witness
5 is from time to time using the services of the translator.
6 Could you state your name again for the record,
7 please?
8 THE INTERPRETER: My name is Seham Laraby.
9 Q Now, sir, directing your attention back to the military
10 committee, can you tell us who you understood to be in charge
11 of the work for the management of the military committee at
12 various times?
13 A Well, Abu Hafs was the head of this military wing, but
14 there are some other guys who are were responsible, too, but
15 they are under supervision of Abu Hafs, like Abu el Masry.
16 Q You mentioned Abu el Masry. Anyone else?
17 A Saif al Adel.
18 Q You mentioned Abu Islam. How many Abu Islams did you know
19 in al Qaeda?
20 A There are two Abu Islams.
21 Q Are they known by different names?
22 A The old one called Abu Islam Masry, or Islam, and the
23 youngest one called Abu Islam Masry, too, or Shuait.
24 Q Let's go through that. The older one Abu Islam el Masry
25 is also known as Sheik Islam, the younger Abu Islam Masry is
1124
1 also known as Shuait?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Now, if I could display to the witness Government Exhibit
4 for identification 102, and only to the witness and counsel
5 for the moment.
6 Do you recognize the person depicted in Government
7 Exhibit 102?
8 A Yes, this is Sheik Alati.
9 Q Is that a fair and accurate depiction of the person you
10 knew as Sheik Alati?
11 A Yes.
12 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I would offer Government
13 Exhibit 102.
14 THE COURT: Received.
15 (Government's Exhibit 102 received in evidence)
16 Q Display for the witness and counsel only Government
17 Exhibit 104 for identification. It may be in evidence.
18 Do you recognize the person depicted in Government
19 Exhibit 104?
20 A Yes, this is Abu islam al Khabir, the older Islam.
21 Q You mentioned Khabir. That's the person, the older Islam?
22 A Yes, the older.
23 Q Your Honor, I believe 104 is already in evidence so I
24 believe we can display it to the jury. Is this the Abu Islam
25 who is in the military committee?
1125
1 A Yes.
2 Q And if we can display to the witness for identification
3 purposes only Government Exhibit 119. Do you recognize the
4 person depicted in Government Exhibit 119?
5 A Yes. Abu Mohamed el Masry.
6 Q And Abu Mohammed el Masry was he known by any other name?
7 A Saleh.
8 Q S-A-L-E-H?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And do you know if this person was married?
11 A Yes, he is.
12 Q And do you know who his wife was?
13 A He, she is the daughter of Faraj Abu El Masry.
14 Q Faraj El Masry, M-A-S-R-Y?
15 A Yes.
16 Q The person in 119 would be the son-in-law of Sheik Abu
17 Faraj el Masry?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Government Exhibit 119 a fair and accurate depiction of
20 the person you knew as Saleh or Abu Mohamed el Masry?
21 A Yes.
22 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I would offer Government
23 Exhibit 119.
24 THE COURT: Received.
25 (Government's Exhibit 119 received in evidence)
1126
1 Q Do you know if this person depicted in Government Exhibit
2 119 had any children?
3 A Yes, he had.
4 Q Do you recall how many children he had, boys or girls?
5 A Well, he had three daughters.
6 Q Do you remember the names of any of his daughters?
7 A I remember the oldest one, Marium.
8 Q M-A-R-I-U-M.
9 A Yes.
10 Q And was this the same Abu Mohammed el Masry who was in the
11 military committee of al Qaeda?
12 A Yes, he is the same.
13 Q And besides being involved in al Qaeda, did he have any
14 outside of?
15 A Well, before he joined he had told me that he was a soccer
16 player in Egypt and he was playing in a professional team in
17 Egypt.
18 Q Do you remember the name of the professional team he
19 played for?
20 A I'm not quite sure, but probably Mahala.
21 Q Is that a professional team?
22 A Yes, I think it was in the first league.
23 Q Now, you mentioned an economic committee for al Qaeda.
24 Who did you understand to be involved with the economic
25 committee for al Qaeda in a leadership role?
1127
1 A Well, there is Sheik Sayyid el Masry.
2 Q And you mentioned a committee involved with law, legal
3 committee. Who did you understand to be involved with the
4 legal committee for al Qaeda?
5 A Sheik Sayyid, too, the same Sheik and Abu Hafs Mauricni.
6 Q Anyone else that you recall?
7 A I don't remember the names.
8 Q Did al Qaeda have any committee that had to do with the
9 media?
10 A Yes, they had. In Peshawar where we were there they have
11 the committee dealing with the media.
12 Q And who was in charge of dealing with the media in
13 Peshawar?
14 A Well, they have a house in which the media, they issue
15 leaflets, some leaflets every week. Abu Surir was working
16 with them.
17 Q Al Qaeda have any organization that dealt with the media?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Do you know who is in charge of that?
20 A Well, Abu Mohamed el Masry.
21 Q When you say Abu Mohamed el Masry can you refer to the
22 person also known as Saleh?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And who is Haru?
25 A He is from --
1128
1 Q Spell the name of the island if you know how to spell it?
2 A C-O-M-O-R, I don't know.
3 Q And do you know where that island is located?
4 A I think it's near Madagascar I think in the south of
5 Madagascar or in the north, I'm not quite sure.
6 Q And if I can show the witness Government Exhibit 110 for
7 identification. Do you recognize the person depicted in
8 Government Exhibit 110?
9 A Yes, this is Haru al Qamar.
10 Q And is that a fair and accurate picture of the person you
11 knew as Haru al Qamar?
12 A Yes. Q AMA R. Your Honor, I would offer Government
13 Exhibit 110 in evidence.
14 THE COURT: Received.
15 (Government's Exhibit 110 received in evidence)
16 (Continued on next page)
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1129
1 Q You mentioned after you made bayat to al Qaeda in Mairam
2 Shah guesthouse, that you had been on your way to the front.
3 Did you actually go to the front?
4 A Yes, I went to the front, yes.
5 Q Where was the front?
6 A It was in a place called Badaloon. It's near Khosh.
7 Q Did you fight on the front line or behind the front line?
8 A No, I was in the behind, because there are some other
9 people who are there many days before me that have to go to
10 the front.
11 Q How much time did you spend at the front?
12 A I don't remember exactly, probably two months.
13 Q Just so we are clear, who were you fighting at the time?
14 A Well, the communist government of Afghanistan at that
15 time, and they were in Khost.
16 Q After your two months at the front, what did you do next?
17 A I went back to Peshawar.
18 Q Did you eventually return to the camps?
19 A Yes, I returned after -- I am not quite sure. I went to
20 another front in other city called Jalalabad.
21 Q Do you recall how long you spent at the front in
22 Jalalabad?
23 A Probably 15 days. I am not quite sure.
24 Q Did there come a time when you eventually returned to the
25 training camps?
1130
1 A Yes.
2 Q Can you tell us approximately when that was?
3 THE COURT: What year are we talking about?
4 A Probably the end of '91, '92.
5 MR. FITZGERALD: If I can display to the witness what
6 has been marked Government's Exhibit for identification 250.
7 I ask if you recognize what that is?
8 A This is a map of Afghanistan and Pakistan.
9 Q Does that appear to you from your experience of Pakistan
10 and Afghanistan to be a fair and accurate map of that region?
11 A Yes.
12 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I would offer
13 Government's Exhibit 250 for identification into evidence.
14 THE COURT: Yes, received.
15 (Government's Exhibit 250 received in evidence)
16 Q Do you see Peshawar in the map?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Is that in the grayish brownish area to the right?
19 A Excuse me.
20 Q Is it on the right side of the screen, the darkened area?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Does it have an airplane there signifying an airport?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Can you tell us generally, even if not marked on the map,
25 where the Miram Shah area of Pakistan is.
1131
1 A I don't see it here.
2 Q Can you find Khost? Is Khost in Afghanistan or Pakistan?
3 A No, Khost is Afghanistan.
4 Q So that would be in the white area.
5 A I see Jalalabad here, but Khost --
6 Q Is Khost near the Afghani border?
7 A Yes, it is near the Pakistani border.
8 Q Do you know what state it is in?
9 A It's, I think -- no, I didn't see it.
10 Q Do you know the name of the state it is in, without
11 looking?
12 A Excuse me.
13 Q Do you know the name of the Afghani state that Khost is
14 in?
15 A No, I don't remember.
16 Q Why don't we come back to the map when we are a little
17 better organized.
18 Where were the Farouq camps? How many camps were
19 there in the Farouq area or Khost area?
20 A There were about three or four camps.
21 Q Do you recall the names of the three or four camps?
22 A There is a Farouq camp, and Abu Bakr Sadeek camp and Jihad
23 War camp, and Khalid Ibn Walid.
24 Q Which camp did you go to after you finished at the front
25 and Jalalabad?
1132
1 A They sent me to Abu Bakr Sadeek camp.
2 Q What did you do at the Abu Bakr Sadeek camp?
3 A I went there, supposed to be a trainer.
4 Q Did you actually serve as a trainer?
5 A Yes.
6 Q What did you train people in?
7 A I was training people for the same thing I learned in
8 Farouq camp but it was different because the people coming to
9 Sadeek camp don't have a lot of time to spend in Afghanistan.
10 They have a week or two weeks or three weeks, they have a very
11 short time. That's why we teach them things very briefly,
12 light weapons, explosives, some grenades, pistolettes.
13 Q Is a pistolette a small pistol?
14 A Yes, there are only two pistolettes there, Malakov and
15 Valakov.
16 Q Was there an emir of the Abu Bakr Sadeek camp when you
17 were training there?
18 A Yes, there was.
19 Q Who was the emir of the Abu Bakr Sadeek camp?
20 A Guy calls Abu Omar al Sebai.
21 Q Did you ever come to know Abu Omar al Sebai by another
22 name?
23 A Yes.
24 Q What was the other name or names that you knew him by?
25 A Hamad, or Khalid al Fawwaz.
1133
1 Q Do you know what his true legal name?
2 A Khalid Fawwaz was his true name.
3 Q Where did you know him by the name Hamad?
4 A That was in Kenya.
5 Q Let me show you what is premarked Government's Exhibit 109
6 for identification, previously shown to counsel. Do you
7 recognize the person depicted in Government's Exhibit 109?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Who is that?
10 A Khalid Fawwaz.
11 Q Is that a fair and accurate depiction of the person you
12 knew as Khalid Fawwaz?
13 A Yes.
14 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I would offer
15 Government's Exhibit 109.
16 THE COURT: Received.
17 (Government's Exhibit 109 received in evidence)
18 Q Sir, how long did you spend serving as a trainer at the
19 camp Abu Bakr al Sadeek?
20 A I don't remember, probably a year.
21 Q Did you train only at that camp or did you train at any of
22 the neighboring camps at Khost?
23 A I was a trainer at Sadeek camp but sometimes we go to
24 Jihad Wal camp for training. I took explosive training in
25 Jihad Wal camp.
1134
1 Q How long was the explosives training course you took at
2 Jihad Wal camp?
3 A Fifteen days.
4 Q Do you recall who taught that class?
5 A We are many students, but the instructor was Muntasser al
6 Jaziri.
7 Q Did you see any of the other people who were trainers at
8 the Jihad Wal camp, or the managers?
9 A At that time Abu Islam el Masry, who was the emir of Jihad
10 Wal.
11 Q You testified earlier there were two people in al Qaeda
12 known as Abu Islam el Masry. Which of the two was the emir of
13 the Jihad Wal camp?
14 A Older one.
15 Q Do you recall any of the other people who were trainers,
16 not students, at the Jihad Wal camp?
17 A Jihad Wal camp wasn't normally for training, it was like a
18 headquarters of the other camps. That's why you find people
19 there, whether they are trainers or they are not on duty, like
20 Saif al Ader was there.
21 Q During the time that you were a trainer at Abu Bakr Sadeek
22 camp, do you know what the person Abu Ubaidah, the animal
23 doctor, was doing?
24 A Yes. We were assigned both of us as trainers, but he went
25 to el Farouq camp and I went to el Sadeek camp.
1135
1 Q While you were teaching weapons in Sadeek camp, do you
2 know what Abu Ubaidah the animal doctor was teaching at the
3 Farouq camp?
4 A He was teaching explosives in the Farouq camp.
5 Q During the time that you were in the Abu Bakr Sadeek camp
6 as a trainer, did you come to know a person by the name of
7 Marwan?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Was the person Marwan known by any other name?
10 A Yes, Abu Moath.
11 Q Marwan was also known as Abu Moath, correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And you were unsure whether it is al Philistini or Urdani,
14 is that correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q What does al Philistini mean?
17 A It means the Palestinian.
18 Q What does Urdani mean?
19 A Jordanian.
20 Q Do you know what the nationality of this person known as
21 Abu Moath was?
22 A Either one of them, because I think 70 percent of
23 Palestinians are living in Jordan.
24 Q Besides knowing Marwan from the camps in Abu Bakr Sadeek,
25 did you see him in later years?
1136
1 A Yes, I saw him at Kenya.
2 Q I ask you to look around the courtroom today and ask you
3 to tell us if you recognize the person known as Marwan or Abu
4 Moath?
5 A Yes, I know.
6 Q Can you tell us where the person is seated?
7 A In front of.
8 Q If you describe where I am, where is he seated in relation
9 to me?
10 A Number 4 on your right side.
11 Q Can you describe what he is wearing?
12 MR. WILFORD: Your Honor, we concede identification.
13 THE COURT: The identification of the defendant Odeh
14 is conceded.
15 Q What did you understand that Marwan was doing in the camps
16 while you were a trainer at Abu Bakr Sadeek?
17 A Marwan came at the end of, when I was in Sadeek camp, he
18 came later on to Farouq camp as a trainer.
19 Q Do you know what Marwan was training people in?
20 A Well, I have never been there while he was training in el
21 Farouq camp but from the brothers --
22 MR. WILFORD: Objection.
23 Q Answer this yes or no. Did you ever discuss with Marwan
24 or anyone in al Qaeda what Marwan was training people in? Yes
25 or no.
1137
1 THE COURT: Break it down.
2 Q Did you ever discuss with Marwan what it was that he was
3 doing in the camps? Yes or no.
4 A I discuss with other people.
5 Q And the other people you discussed it with, were they
6 members of al Qaeda? Yes or no.
7 A Yes.
8 Q Did they tell you what it was that Marwan was training
9 people in? Yes or no.
10 A Yes.
11 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I would now ask the
12 question what did they tell you he was training for?
13 A As a maybe member of al Qaeda and the trainer in Abu Bakr
14 Sadeek camp, when we meet each other, whether in el Farouq or
15 Sadeek camp, the other trainers, we just say how is --
16 MR. WILFORD: Objection.
17 Q Don't tell us how you had the conversation, just tell us
18 what you were told.
19 A He was a trainer in el Farouq camp.
20 Q Did they tell you what he trained people in, not the camp
21 but what area of expertise?
22 A No.
23 Q At the time that you were in the camps for approximately
24 one year, were you married?
25 A Yes, I was.
1138
1 Q Where did your wife live?
2 A She was living in Peshawar.
3 Q How often did you see your wife while you were at the camp
4 in Afghanistan?
5 A It's a week in a month. I mean, if I spend three weeks in
6 the camp, the fourth week I go back to Peshawar.
7 Q Did there come a time when you left the area of the camps
8 in Khost and moved somewhere else?
9 A Excuse me.
10 Q Did there come a time when you left your job as a trainer
11 in the Abu Bakr Sadeek camp?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Where did you go?
14 A I went to Peshawar.
15 Q When you got to Peshawar, what did you do?
16 A I stayed there sometimes in Peshawar, then Abu Hafs el
17 Masry called me with some other people for us to attend
18 another training session.
19 Q When you said Abu Hafs called you, is that the same person
20 Abu Hafs el Masry that you indicated was on the military
21 committee?
22 A Yes.
23 Q When Abu Hafs told you to attend a training session, where
24 did he tell you this?
25 A It was exactly in Usama Bin Laden's house in Hyatabad
1139
1 Peshawar.
2 Q Is Hyatabad a neighborhood in Peshawar?
3 A It's in Peshawar, but I don't understand neighborhood
4 exactly. It's not far from Peshawar. It's among Peshawar.
5 It's one nice residential place of Peshawar.
6 Q Do you recall what year it was, and, if you recall,
7 approximately what month that Abu Hafs told you and others to
8 attend training during a meeting at Usama Bin Laden's house?
9 A It was approximately 1992.
10 Q Do you know if that was early or late 1992, if you recall?
11 A I am not quite sure.
12 Q Did he tell you then what type of training it would be?
13 A No. Abu Hafs didn't tell us anything about the type of
14 training but he told us that the trainer is a severe man, not
15 very observant -- can I use the interpreter, please.
16 (Interpreted) strict man. He is very strict and very -- you
17 have to just be patient with him. He is very, very strict and
18 not gentle.
19 Q And you mentioned that he wasn't observant. Did Abu Hafs
20 tell you in what manner this person was not observant?
21 A I mean he is not a good practitioner of Islam. You can
22 hear from him some bad words, which we weren't telling each
23 other, from brothers.
24 Q Did Abu Hafs tell you whether or not this person who would
25 be training you was a member of al Qaeda or not?
1140
1 A No, he didn't mention anything.
2 Q Did he tell you the name of the trainer?
3 A No, he didn't say anything.
4 Q Did you actually attend this training?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Can you tell the jury where the training took place and
7 what kind of training it was?
8 A It was in the same place, in Hyatabad, the same area, but
9 in another section of Hyatabad, a little bit big. It was in,
10 I think, phase two, something like that. The trainer, the
11 training was surveillance training.
12 Q Who was the trainer who taught you this surveillance
13 training?
14 A It was Abu Mohamed al Amriki.
15 Q Can you tell the jury what al Amriki means.
16 A The American.
17 Q Can you tell us what other names you knew the person Abu
18 Mohamed al Amriki by?
19 A I knew him by Bakhbola, by Bili Bili, by Haydara.
20 Q You mentioned Bakhbola. We will come back to that in a
21 moment. You mentioned Bili Bili, and you mentioned Haydara.
22 First starting with Bakhbola, do you know what that word means
23 or what language that comes from?
24 A Well, this guy is a funny guy, and we had guy in the house
25 we were training in, and that guy, he is Afghan and speaking
1141
1 Afghani language. I think he took it from the word Bakhbol.
2 I don't understand that word, Afghan word.
3 Q So the word Bakhbol was an Afghan word, not Arabic word?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And you mentioned the name Bili Bili. Does that name mean
6 anything to you in Arabic or any other language you
7 understand?
8 A No.
9 Q Did you get any indication of where he came up with that
10 name?
11 A No, I said he is a funny guy all the time, bringing some
12 new names.
13 Q And you mentioned Haydara.
14 A Yes.
15 Q Did he train alone or did he have assistance of someone
16 else?
17 A No, there was another guy with him.
18 Q Do you recall who that person's name?
19 A Adnan. He was Egyptian.
20 Q The person that you knew as Abu Mohamed, the American,
21 what nationality did he appear to be?
22 A What is his nationality?
23 Q Yes.
24 A He is Egyptian.
25 Q What languages did he speak?
1142
1 A Arabic.
2 Q Did you ever speak English with him? Did you know English
3 at the time?
4 A I was speaking English, but no, he doesn't speak English
5 with me. He was speaking only Arabic.
6 Q Can you tell us who the students were in the class taught
7 by this Abu Mohamed al Amriki.
8 A We are two groups normally, each group of four people.
9 The first group was me and Anas al Liby and Saif al Liby.
10 Q Anyone else you recall in the first group besides
11 yourself, Anas al Liby and Saif al Liby?
12 A I think Abu Madyan el Masry. In the other group there was
13 Abu Ahmed el Masry and another guy, a Jordanian guy, and
14 another Saudi guy. And Abu Rifa al Liby.
15 Q Can you tell the jury what it was you were trained in by
16 the person Abu Mohamed the American?
17 A At the beginning he started checking our intelligence and
18 some exercise. After that, he explained about the trainer.
19 It's surveillance, how to make surveillance of targets and how
20 to collect information about these targets.
21 Q Can you describe what it was you were told to do when you
22 collected information and did surveillance of targets. What
23 were the details of what you were instructed to do?
24 A So as to collect information about the target we use
25 different techniques, like, for example, using, whether to go
1143
1 to see the target, then you take pictures of that target, then
2 locate the target in a map, then if you can go in the target
3 so as to see how many people are working there, if there are
4 some people there or not. And all kind of information that
5 can help in your report.
6 Q Before we get to the report, were you trained in any
7 particular equipment to use during surveillance?
8 A Yes. We trained how to use different cameras, especially
9 small cameras, and how to take pictures in the guesthouse in
10 which we were living. You take your camera without using the
11 camera straight in your eyes. You just take it like this.
12 And another guy came behind us to see if you are taking the
13 target very well or not. Then he will say go down or up,
14 until you used to take the picture very well without using
15 your eyes.
16 Q Do you recall what type of cameras were you were trained
17 to use?
18 A There was Olympus and Canon. I don't remember the others.
19 Q What were you supposed to do with the film once you took
20 the pictures?
21 A After taking, normally after taking pictures we go back to
22 our place and we develop them, that picture, that film, using
23 a machine, and product, fixer and developer and water.
24 Normally you take a place in that room, we close all the
25 places and we use only the red lights and we use some bowls in
1144
1 which there is some fixers and developer and we wash that
2 films, and put them up to dry, and after that we use the
3 machine so as to get the pictures.
4 Q Were you trained during this time in how to develop
5 pictures with the negatives and using developing fluid?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Tell us about what you were instructed to write in the
8 reports when you did a surveillance.
9 A Writing the report normally, in the front paper you say
10 how secret it is in the top, the target you are using, and the
11 daytime date, the date, and even the time you started your
12 work, and the name of the target, and you start describing the
13 target and putting all the information of the target. You
14 draw the pictures, if there is a map, and some addresses.
15 Q How would you describe the target in the reports that you
16 were trained to write?
17 A For example, if it's a room like this one, if you can get
18 in that room, you just go in and you look at how it is from
19 inside, how it is from outside, the walls, the colors, how big
20 are the walls and which color are they and how high they are,
21 the lights, the doors, the floor, everything that you can see,
22 all information about that room.
23 Q In the beginning you said you described what the target
24 was. If you were looking at a post office, what would you
25 write in the report?
1145
1 A You write the post office there.
2 Q Did you ever use numbers in the reports?
3 A Sometimes you use the number, other code.
4 Q During this time did any of the people in the class have
5 any equipment besides camera equipment and equipment to
6 develop pictures?
7 A At the end, Abu Anas al Liby brought two computers so as
8 to teach us how to put all this information we collected.
9 Instead of reporting you put them in the computer and just put
10 them in a disk so as to be easy to carry.
11 Q How long did this training last?
12 A It was almost two weeks.
13 Q During that time, did your group or the other group do any
14 practical exercises, where you would go out and do actual
15 surveillances of places other than the building where you were
16 working?
17 A Yes. We started with small things, like bridge, like
18 stadium, like normal places in which nobody is, and then in
19 the second stage we went to police stations, for example, and
20 in my group we were trained to go to Iranian consulate and
21 Iranian cultural center.
22 Q Where were the Iranian consulate and Iranian cultural
23 center? In what city?
24 A Everything was in Peshawar. We were only in Peshawar.
25 Q During your training, were you instructed as to what would
1146
1 happen to the reports once they were written?
2 A Normally if you write a report, you take it to a safe
3 place where you can drop it, and somebody else will come and
4 take it to your boss.
5 Q Were you told what the roles would be in terms of who
6 would do what with the report?
7 A I didn't ask that.
8 Q If your understanding was if you were trained in
9 surveillance you wrote the report, what role would the person
10 who wrote the report perform afterward?
11 MR. WILFORD: Objection.
12 THE COURT: Overruled.
13 A I didn't understand that. (Interpreted)
14 That was the end of his role.
15 Q Did you know what happened to the report, who it would go
16 to, whether there was any other group involved?
17 A During the training, Mohammed explained us that this job
18 is the first part of military part. I mean, you collect the
19 information about this certain targets, and whenever you
20 finish your work, our group, we just leave, we send our
21 reports to our bosses and we leave. So this number two -- our
22 bosses are number two. Those people, they go through this
23 report and they read all the information, and everything.
24 Then they decide, they make some decisions how to attack that
25 target, and the first -- then they send another group who
1147
1 supply everything so as to attack that target. Whenever that
2 group, third group finish his job, he has to leave. No one at
3 the end the fourth group who can do the job come so as to do
4 the final job.
5 Q So there are four groups.
6 A Yes, four groups.
7 Q Let me show you a picture that has been marked for
8 identification as Government's Exhibit 112 and ask you to look
9 at Government's Exhibit 112 for identification and tell us if
10 you recognize the person in that photograph.
11 A Yes, I do.
12 Q Who is that?
13 A Anas al Liby.
14 Q Is that a fair and accurate depiction of the person you
15 knew as Anas al Liby?
16 A Yes.
17 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I would offer Exhibit
18 112 in evidence.
19 THE COURT: Yes, received.
20 (Government's Exhibit 112 received in evidence)
21 Q Is that the Anas al Liby who was also attending this class
22 and who had the two computers?
23 A Yes.
24 Q During the time that you and your group participated in
25 the exercises to do the surveillances of the Iranian consulate
1148
1 and the Iranian cultural center, did you have an understanding
2 whether or not those surveillances were for a real operation
3 or for practice, or were you not sure?
4 A No, we weren't sure.
5 Q During this time did you surveil any people in addition to
6 surveilling buildings?
7 A Yes. We were trained so as to make -- I will use the
8 interpreter.
9 (Through interpreter) It means we would be in
10 surveillance of somebody following him on foot, or if it's
11 going to be by car, following him by car.
12 Q During this time, during that two-week period did you
13 actually do a surveillance of a real person?
14 A Yes, we were trained to do that between us, but after that
15 we done the surveillance for a guy coming from Islamabad. He
16 was Egyptian and he was working in the Egyptian embassy, and
17 he was coming to Peshawar so as to contact a guy there in
18 Peshawar. So we were following him.
19 Q Who was in the group that followed him?
20 A I think all members of the both groups, we were all of us
21 working on that.
22 Q During the time of this two weeks training, when you were
23 trained by Abu Mohamed, the American, and Adnan, did you ever
24 learn whether or not they were members of al Qaeda?
25 A No, I don't think -- no, they were not from al Qaeda.
1149
1 Q Did you ever learn what group they were from?
2 A We have been told that they were from Al Jihad group.
3 Q The Al Jihad group from which country?
4 A The Egyptian Al Jihad group.
5 Q After the training was over, were you told where Haydara
6 or Abu Mohamed the American was going next?
7 A Abu Mohamed or Haydara told me that he is going to Jihad
8 Wal camp so as to give another military course to the trainers
9 there.
10 (Continued on next page)
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1150
1 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, there is a slight
2 logistical bump in the next exhibit. This might be a
3 convenient breaking point.
4 THE COURT: We will have our luncheon break and we
5 will resume at 2:15.
6 (Jury excused)
7 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, there are some in limine
8 matters that we need to take up in the robing room at some
9 point and I want to alert your Honor --
10 THE COURT: Is there any reason not to do it now?
11 MR. FITZGERALD: No.
12 (Continued on next page)
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1151
1 (In the robing room)
2 THE COURT: Mr. Fitzgerald.
3 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. There are two issues. One, I
4 believe counsel were given a letter this morning about some
5 topics, in limine issues that we assume the defense did not
6 want the government to get into.
7 THE COURT: That is your letter of February 21, which
8 we will mark Court Exhibit A of today's date.
9 MR. COHN: We haven't seen it.
10 MR. FITZGERALD: I thought it was handed out today.
11 MR. COHN: You may have handed it out selectively but
12 you ignored some of us.
13 THE COURT: Mr. Cohn, do you want to borrow mine?
14 MR. COHN: Thank you, your Honor.
15 MR. RUHNKE: There was a lot of paper handed out this
16 morning, to be fair.
17 MR. FITZGERALD: I think the topic was the killing of
18 the son of Abu Faraj al Yemeni. I assume you were taking the
19 same position as before with al-Fadl, that we should not get
20 into that incident, but I want to make sure.
21 MR. SCHMIDT: No, we don't plan to go into that, your
22 Honor. Just for a comment on the letter, the Ramzi Yousef
23 issue, it wasn't our intention to go into the World Trade
24 Center bombing, just the use of the name Ramzi Yousef by the
25 last witness, to try to make him salable to the Americans. So
1152
1 the government misstates our purpose in its letter.
2 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, had we known we were
3 doing that, we would have elicited the comment about the
4 mastermind of the World Trade Center bombing that counsel
5 listed. If it is off limits, we should have that clear from
6 the get-go.
7 MR. WILFORD: On this issue Mr. Fitzgerald is talking
8 about now, I am not prepared to give an answer now on that.
9 Do you plan to do it this afternoon?
10 MR. FITZGERALD: Which one?
11 MR. WILFORD: The killing of the son of Abu Faraj --
12 MR. FITZGERALD: I will leave it out and we can go
13 over it at the end of the day.
14 MR. BAUGH: You don't expect to finish today?
15 MR. FITZGERALD: No. The second was the attack of
16 the former king of Afghanistan in Italy. Some people
17 affiliated with al Qaeda stabbed the former king of
18 Afghanistan while he was living in exile in Italy. I believe
19 one of them was arrested, and this person, Abu Mohamed, the
20 American, which is Ali Mohamed, was sent to Italy to
21 investigate and was frustrated in his investigation and
22 brought back articles from the Italian newspaper concerning
23 the event of a stabbing of the king of Afghanistan and brought
24 them back to Nairobi, and this witness, I believe, may have
25 translated some of them.
1153
1 The whole question is, do we want to get into the
2 episode of the killing of the former king of Afghanistan or
3 not.
4 MR. BAUGH: We have no plans.
5 MR. WILFORD: No.
6 THE COURT: You have others?
7 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, if I could peek over your
8 Honor's shoulder.
9 The witness was at one point asked to prepare himself
10 to get a visa to go to Saudi Arabia. He got the visa and was
11 not asked to go to Saudi Arabia, but at the time he observed
12 an Egyptian person who was not a pilot debriefing a friend of
13 his, Ihab Ali, about how air traffic control works and what
14 people say over the air traffic control system, and it was his
15 belief that there might have been a plan to send a pilot to
16 Saudi Arabia or someone familiar with that to monitor the air
17 traffic communications so they could possibly attack an
18 airplane perhaps belonging to an Egyptian president or
19 something in Saudi Arabia. He is not certain of that.
20 I just want to know if that is something that you
21 wish to examine on or not.
22 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, for the record, I have gone
23 through this and Mr. El Hage does not wish to go into any of
24 this.
25 MR. COHN: To shortcircuit, if you want to make a
1154
1 record of what the letter is, neither does Al-'Owhali.
2 MR. RUHNKE: Nor do we on behalf of K.K. Mohamed.
3 THE COURT: So as to Odeh you are reserving on the
4 first item, the killing of the son of Abu Mohamed Faraj al
5 Yemeni.
6 MR. WILFORD: We would also like to reserve on the
7 item subheaded the death of a Kenyan intelligence officer.
8 Thus, the first and the last we would like to reserve on.
9 MR. FITZGERALD: The death of the Kenyan intelligence
10 officer I think would come up in the afternoon in the course
11 of events. If Mr. Wilford would tell us -- that is the first
12 set of redactions.
13 THE COURT: When you say redactions, you mean areas
14 that you have agreed not to examine on direct and which except
15 as to the first and last items where Mr. Wilford has reserved,
16 other defendants have indicated that they do not intend to
17 raise the topics.
18 MR. FITZGERALD: The next issue may involve
19 classified information, so I don't know if everyone here is
20 cleared.
21 (Conference filed under separate cover under seal)
22 (Luncheon recess)
23
24
25
1155
1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
2 2:30 p.m.
3 (In open court; jury present; witness resumed)
4 MR. FITZGERALD: May I proceed, Judge.
5 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Fitzgerald, you may proceed.
6 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
7 Q Mr. Kherchtou, let me ask you if you're familiar with?
8
9 anyone in al Qaeda who used the following names or nicknames?
10 Hajj, or Ba Hajj?
11 A Hajj means Usama Bin Laden.
12 Q And that would be H-A-J-J.
13 How about the word the name for director. The
14 director?
15 A Same thing. You can say Usama Bin Laden.
16 Q Sorry?
17 A I said sometimes Bin Laden can call him the director, but
18 I've never called him.
19 Q And when you say Abu Abdullah the director, which Abu
20 Abdullah?
21 A Usama Bin Laden.
22 Q Can we display the photograph we qued up before the lunch
23 break which I believe is 403R.
24 Sir, do you recognize the person in Government
25 Exhibit 403R?
1156
1 A I don't have anything on my screen.
2 Q We'll get I a copy of 403R. First, if you can keep your
3 voice up again so that everyone in the room can hear and that
4 requires probably getting as close to the microphone as you
5 can.
6 Do you recognize the person depicted in Government
7 Exhibit 403R as in Robert?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Can you tell the jury who that is?
10 A Abu Mohamed al Amriki or Haydara.
11 Q I believe 403R is already in evidence so I ask that you
12 display that to the jury.
13 Is that the same Abu Mohammed who taught you and the
14 others the surveillance training in Pakistan?
15 A Yes.
16 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, we would offer 403R. I
17 thought it was offered in evidence.
18 THE COURT: Received.
19 (Government's Exhibit 403R received in evidence)
20 Q Is that the same Abu Mohamed al Amriki who taught you
21 surveillance training in Pakistan that you described before
22 lunch?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Now, did there come a time when you were asked to undergo
25 a different type of training in Pakistan?
1157
1 A Well, after this training of surveillance a friend of mine
2 who was in the same group, he's, I don't remember his
3 nickname, he told me if I can go with him to study
4 electronics.
5 Q And did you go to study electronics?
6 A Yes. Al Qaeda at that time they have a workshop in
7 Hyatabad, I think it was in Fey Street in Hyatabad. So I went
8 there. There were two guys were working there in that
9 workshop.
10 Q And who are the two guys working in the al Qaeda
11 electronics workshop in Hyatabad?
12 A Well, they called Abu al Alkali and another guy called
13 Salem the Iraqui.
14 Q So one name is Abu ABU-AL-ALKALI.
15 A Yes.
16 Q And the second one is S-A-L-E-M, the Iraqi?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Abu al Alkali do you know what country he was from?
19 A Egyptian.
20 Q Can you tell us what you did? Did you actually go to this
21 workshop?
22 A Yes. I went to the workshop to start electronics but they
23 found out that I don't know anything about electronics, and
24 they told me just to study from the beginning and to recognize
25 start knowing the different components, and I stayed there
1158
1 some times until another guy came a Jordanian guy came and he
2 found me there. He asked me if I am engineer or what I'm
3 doing in this workshop. I said I'm not engineer and he told
4 me, why don't you go to the institute to study as a student.
5 He told me the institute was in Bebi, it's another place in
6 Peshawar.
7 Q B-E-B-I?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Did you go to the electronics institute in Bebi?
10 A Yes. I didn't have time to stay in that institute but I
11 went to the institute. I brought courses because the
12 electronics courses was divided in many phases, three phases
13 or four phases. So they gave me first one. I studied at
14 home, and everyday go to the work shop, and after two months
15 every two months I go to sit for the exam.
16 Q How long in total do you estimate that you spent working
17 in the workshop where Abu al Alkali works?
18 A I'm not quite sure, but it's over than six months.
19 Q And how many times did you go to the electronics institute
20 in Bebi?
21 A Well, many times but not sometimes for the exam, sometimes
22 to visit the institute.
23 Q Did you ever graduate from the electronics institute?
24 A No.
25 Q And what type of things were going on in the al Qaeda
1159
1 electronics workshop in Hytabad?
2 A Well, I am not able to say exactly what is going on, but
3 they were working everyday there, and many oscilloscopes and
4 machines, and they were talking about code and decoders and
5 about things that I don't know exactly.
6 Q What were they discussing in your presence that they were
7 working on?
8 A Well, by then I understand they are controls about
9 decoders.
10 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, I object to the foundation.
11 Q Did they discuss remote controls in front of you?
12 MR. SCHMIDT: I object for foundation purposes. It's
13 hearsay statements by made by other people.
14 Q Let me focus a few questions.
15 THE COURT: Restate the question.
16 Q I'm not asking about the institute. I'm asking about the
17 workshops where Abu Alkali was. Did you work for
18 approximately six months in the workshop?
19 A Yes, I worked over than six months there.
20 Q During time that you worked there did you hear the people
21 who were working there discuss what they were doing?
22 MR. SCHMIDT: I object.
23 THE COURT: Overruled.
24 MR. SCHMIDT: I further object to the workshop
25 itself. I don't think a foundation has been laid.
1160
1 THE COURT: Overruled.
2 (Witness consults with interpreter)
3 A Well, the workshop was al Qaeda workshop anyway, and they
4 were working in decoders, encoders, and radios, watches, and a
5 lot of stuff there.
6 Q Did you see them doing these things?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Did you hear them discussing it?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Now, can you tell us physically where the workshop was
11 located in Hyatabad?
12 A In phase three I think and it's not far from Usama Bin
13 Laden's house.
14 Q How big was the building in which the workshop was
15 located?
16 A It's medium building of two floors, the first floor and
17 the second floor.
18 Q And in which floor was the workshop located?
19 A It was on the first floor.
20 Q Now, did there come a time when a number of people from al
21 Qaeda began to leave Pakistan?
22 A Excuse me?
23 Q Did there come a time when al Qaeda members began to leave
24 Pakistan?
25 A Yes, they were leaving, not only people of al Qaeda, many
1161
1 other people they were leaving Pakistan at certain time, yes.
2 Q Did there come a time when, did you ever try to go up to
3 the second floor of the building where the workshop was
4 located?
5 A Well, at the beginning it was, it was, it wasn't, I
6 couldn't go. It was, it wasn't allowed to anybody to go in.
7 Q Did you ever see who was working up in the second floor of
8 the workshop?
9 A Yeah, there was Anas al Liby, Abu Marwan and Abu Rafa.
10 Q Were those the same three people who were in the
11 surveillance class that you told us about before lunch?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Did there ever come a time where you actually did go up to
14 the second floor of that building where the workshop was
15 located?
16 A Yes. Again when many people left al Qaeda left even they
17 moved from that place, and they were still in the workshop I
18 went there, I found a lot of things in that building.
19 Q On the first floor or the second floor?
20 A No, the second floor.
21 Q What did you see in the second floor?
22 A Well, a lot of things about stamps and visas, and stuff
23 like this.
24 Q What type of stamps?
25 A Different stamps of Arabic countries and Pakistan.
1162
1 Q Did they appear to be stamps and visas that belonged to a
2 government?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Did they appear to be legitimate stamps and visas that the
5 Pakistan government was using for their passports?
6 MR. SCHMIDT: Objection.
7 THE COURT: Sustained.
8 Q Do you know what countries there were, what the names of
9 the countries that were that were on the stamps of the visas?
10 A I don't remember.
11 Q Do you know if it was one country or more than one
12 country?
13 A Oh, many, many countries.
14 Q While you were in Pakistan did you attend a mosque on
15 Friday?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Was there any particular mosque you attended?
18 A Well, many mosques but the best one was Marquez al Noor.
19 Q Could you say that slowly, please?
20 A Marquez al Noor.
21 Q During time that you attended the mosque did you hear any
22 discussion about al Qaeda's view towards the United States
23 while you were in Pakistan?
24 A Well, in that mosque it's not al Qaeda mosque. So
25 everybody can pray there, every Arab in Peshawar most of them
1163
1 they are praying there, so.
2 Q Did you ever have a discussion with al Qaeda members
3 focusing on al Qaeda members in Pakistan in the period around
4 1992, as to what al Qaeda's position was toward the United
5 States?
6 A Well, there is a clear view, an obvious view about the
7 United States as an enemy of every, all the Arabs there.
8 Q Now, did there come a time when you left Pakistan?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Can you tell us when it was and where you went?
11 A The first time I went to pilgrimage in Saudi Arabia.
12 Q Can you tell the jury what the pilgrimage is called? What
13 the name of it is?
14 A One of the pillars of Islam in which every Muslim can do
15 if he can afford it.
16 Q Is that called hajj?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And what did you do when you completed the hajj?
19 A I turned back to Pakistan.
20 Q And do you recall approximately when it was that you went
21 back to Pakistan after the hajj?
22 A Excuse me. I didn't hear.
23 Q Do you know when it was, what year and if you recall the
24 month that you returned to Pakistan after making the hajj?
25 A Well, it was in 1993, but probably in early '93.
1164
1 Q And how long did you stay in Pakistan after that?
2 A I can't remember.
3 Q Where did you go next?
4 A Went from Pakistan I left to Kenya.
5 Q And why did you go from Pakistan to Kenya?
6 A Well, a member of al Qaeda Saif al Islam told me that they
7 need me to go to Kenya to study flying.
8 Q And flying what?
9 A Flying the aircraft and one day I will be the Usama Bin
10 Laden's pilot.
11 Q The first person you mentioned who told you this was Saif
12 al Islam?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Is that the same Saif al Islam in you told us this morning
15 was in the military committee?
16 A Yes.
17 Q What did you do after Saif al Islam told you to go to
18 Nairobi to study flying?
19 A Well, I stayed sometimes in Peshawar. Then I left to
20 Kenya.
21 Q And what happened when you got to Kenya?
22 A Well, they told me when you reach the airport you get the
23 visa and you meet us, and near Jamia mosque.
24 Q J-A-M-I-A?
25 A Yes.
1165
1 Q Can you describe what that mosque looks like from the
2 outside, what color is it?
3 A Green and white.
4 Q And did you meet anyone outside the Jamia Mosque when you
5 arrived in Nairobi?
6 A Yeah, exactly it was in front of the Muninin Restaurant.
7 It's not far from the mosque.
8 Q The M-U-N-I-N-I-N restaurant?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And who did you meet outside that restaurant near the
11 mosque?
12 A I meet Saif al Liby himself and Nawawi and Abu Ahmed el
13 Masri.
14 Q So the three persons you mentioned and this other person
15 whose picture you identified this morning?
16 A Yes.
17 Q You mentioned Nawawi. Do you know what Nawawi's true
18 legal name is?
19 A Ihab Ali.
20 Q And what other names did you know Ihab Ali or Nawawi by?
21 A Abu al Tayar.
22 Q Anything else?
23 A Yosef Kenana.
24 Q Can you tell us what the word Yosef in Arabic means in
25 English?
1166
1 A Joseph.
2 Q And do you know if Ihab Ali had any children?
3 A Yes, he had a son.
4 Q Do you know the s