8 March 2001
Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of New York; (212) 805-0300.

This is the transcript of Day 15 of the trial, 8 March 2001

See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm


   2   ------------------------------x


   4              v.                           S(7)98CR1023

   5   USAMA BIN LADEN, et al.,

   6                  Defendants.

   7   ------------------------------x

                                               New York, N.Y.
   9                                           March 8, 2001
                                               9:45 a.m.


  12   Before:

  13                       HON. LEONARD B. SAND,

  14                                           District Judge













   1                            APPEARANCES

            United States Attorney for the
   3        Southern District of New York
   4        DAVID KELLEY
            KENNETH KARAS
   5        PAUL BUTLER
            Assistant United States Attorneys

            Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage
            Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh
  14        Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali

  16        Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed


  18            (In open court; jury not present)

  19            THE COURT:  All right, let's begin.  Mr. Butler,

  20   there is a request on behalf of El Hage for a limiting

  21   instruction.  Have you seen that?

  22            MR. BUTLER:  Yes, we have, your Honor.

  23            THE COURT:  What is the government's position?

  24            MR. FITZGERALD:  We oppose that instruction I.  Was

  25   speaking with Mr. Dratel.  Mr. Karas is reading a case.  But I


   1   think the instruction is overly broad, and that there are

   2   parts of the confession that are admissible.  So I guess we'll

   3   have to figure out at what time we want to take that issue up.

   4            THE COURT:  The request is that the instruction be

   5   given prior to the commencement of the cross-examination.  Let

   6   me know when you're ready to address the issue.

   7            MR. FITZGERALD:  Okay.

   8            (Recess)

   9            (In open court; jury not present)

  10            THE COURT:  All right.  Let's begin.  There is a

  11   request for an instruction to the jury limiting the testimony

  12   with respect to statements made by al-'Owhali to be received

  13   in evidence solely against the defendant al-'Owhali.  Does the

  14   government object to that?

  15            MR. KARAS:  We do, your Honor.  We actually have been

  16   speaking with counsel for El Hage and also for Odeh, and they

  17   are speaking to co-counsel.  What we would propose is to try

  18   to work something out by either the mid-morning break or the

  19   lunch break and get that language to you, and proceed in the

  20   meantime.

  21            THE COURT:  That's acceptable to everyone that we

  22   proceed in the meantime prior to there being a limiting

  23   instruction?

  24            MR. DRATEL:  Yes.  We worked out one aspect.  There

  25   is another aspect a little more complicated, so we'll just


   1   take the time to do that.

   2            THE COURT:  All right.  With the unanimous consent

   3   then of all of the parties I will defer giving a limiting

   4   instruction at this time, and we'll take the matter up again

   5   at the mid-morning recess.  Mr. Cohn.

   6            MR. COHN:  Your Honor, just for convenience sake,

   7   yesterday I handed up to the Court and gave a copy to the

   8   government of all our premarked exhibits, and the government

   9   has consented that they be marked in evidence now, and I would

  10   read them into the record.  So that we can just publish them

  11   directly to the jury as I need them.

  12            Is that satisfactory to the Court?

  13            THE COURT:  Yes.

  14            MR. COHN:  That's exhibit B, B1, B2, B3, B4, B5, B6,

  15   B7, B8, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J and K.

  16            THE COURT:  Very well.

  17            MR. COHN:  All al-'Owhali numbers obviously.

  18            THE COURT:  There is consent to those being received

  19   in evidence?

  20            MR. BUTLER:  Yes, your Honor.

  21            THE COURT:  All right.  They are all received in

  22   evidence.

  23            (Defendant's Al-'Owhali Exhibits B, B1, B2, B3, B4,

  24   B5, B6, B7, B8, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J and K received in

  25   evidence)


   1            THE COURT:  You don't want to do that in front of

   2   jury?  Very well, fine.  The witness may take the stand.  The

   3   jury may come in.

   4            STEPHEN GAUDIN, resumed.

   5            (Jury present)

   6            THE COURT:  Good morning.  We're at the stage of the

   7   proceedings now of cross-examination of Agent Gaudin.

   8            Agent Gaudin, the Court reminds you you're still

   9   under oath.

  10            THE WITNESS:  Thank you, sir.


  12            MR. COHN:  Thank you, why your Honor.

  13   BY MR. COHN:

  14   Q.  Agent Gaudin, yesterday you told us as part of what the

  15   interpreter said to you that Mr. Al-'Owhali said that

  16   Mr. Al-'Owhali lobbied to have the bomb put underneath the

  17   embassy rather than where it was planned to go.  Do you

  18   remember that testimony?

  19   A.  Yes, sir.

  20   Q.  And you testified, did you not, that it was the purpose,

  21   Mr. Al-'Owhali's purpose in doing that to do more damage and

  22   kill more Americans.  Is that right?

  23   A.  Something to that effect.

  24   Q.  That's what you testified to, right?

  25   A.  Something to that effect, sir, yes.


   1   Q.  Well, did you say, so we can be precise, at page 2020.

   2            Al-'Owhali had expressed to Saleh that wouldn't it be

   3   better if we were to put the bomb truck in front of the US

   4   embassy and Saleh disagreed.  And then Al-'Owhali suggested

   5   wouldn't it be better for us to put the bomb underneath the US

   6   embassy in the garage that goes underneath, and the way -- and

   7   that way we would cause more damage to the Americans since the

   8   US, since it's the US embassy, but Saleh explained to him that

   9   it would be difficult to do to get past the section of the

  10   security gate to Al-'Owhali.  The plan didn't get charged --

  11   change.

  12            That was your testimony yesterday, is that right?

  13   A.  Yes, sir.

  14   Q.  That is not precisely true, is it?

  15   A.  I'm sorry, sir?

  16            THE COURT:  Is that a question?

  17            MR. COHN:  Pardon?  Yes.

  18   Q.  That is not precisely true, is it?  That's the question.

  19   Do you understand the question?

  20   A.  I'm not sure, sir.

  21   Q.  What you said was Mr. Al-'Owhali's purpose in suggesting

  22   that is not exactly what he told you during the 22nd, is that

  23   right?

  24   A.  No, sir, that's what he told me.

  25   Q.  You issued a report called a 302, did you not?


   1   A.  Yes, I did.

   2   Q.  And in fact, you have it in front of you, don't you?  I

   3   think it's tabbed in the black book, and if you would turn to

   4   page 9 of your 302 that you generated for the period of 8/22

   5   to 25/98.  It's 3528 for the record.

   6            Thank you, Mr. Ricco.

   7   Q.  Do you have page 9?

   8   A.  Yes, I do, sir.

   9   Q.  If you look in page 9 in the second full paragraph -- now,

  10   this is something you signed, right?

  11   A.  Yes, sir.

  12   Q.  And you drafted it, right?

  13   A.  Yes, I did.

  14   Q.  And you drafted it from handwritten notes, did you not?

  15   A.  And my memory, sir.

  16   Q.  And your memory.  And you knew that it was supposed to be

  17   accurate in all respects, did you not?

  18   A.  This is a summary of what happened, sir.

  19   Q.  You knew that it was supposed to be accurate in all

  20   respects, did you not?

  21   A.  Yes, sir.

  22   Q.  Fine.  Did Mr. Al-'Owhali not say to you, according to

  23   this report, that subject advised that his enemy is the United

  24   States and not Kenya and try to get Saleh to reconsider his

  25   plan.  Subject believed that placing the bomb in the rear of


   1   the embassy would cause excessive collateral damage to the

   2   Kenyans.  Didn't he tell you that?

   3   A.  Yes, he did.

   4   Q.  And wasn't that the reason why he suggested to Saleh that

   5   the bomb be placed in a different place?

   6   A.  No, sir.

   7   Q.  Not what you testified to yesterday?

   8   A.  What he told me, sir.

   9   Q.  Sir, is that, just yes or no will suffice.

  10            MR. BUTLER:  Objection, your Honor.

  11            THE COURT:  Yes, sustained.

  12   A.  He told me that the reason he wanted Saleh to reconsider

  13   the plan is he wanted to cause more damage to the Americans by

  14   placing the bomb in other places then where Saleh had

  15   recommended.

  16   Q.  But that's not in your report.  What I read to you is not

  17   report, isn't it?

  18   A.  I believe they're both in there, sir.

  19   Q.  Oh, so what you're saying is you only told part of the

  20   truth yesterday, not the part that you didn't want to tell?

  21            MR. BUTLER:  Objection, your Honor.

  22            THE COURT:  Sustained.

  23   Q.  We'll move on.

  24            Now, please publish exhibit Al-'Owhali I.

  25            You see Al-'Owhali I is on your screen?


   1   A.  Yes, sir.

   2   Q.  Do you know the date that that picture was taken?

   3   A.  Yes, sir.

   4   Q.  What is the date?

   5   A.  Friday, the 21st of August, 1998.

   6   Q.  21st.

   7            Will you publish Al-'Owhali J.

   8            And what date was that picture taken?

   9   A.  That was taken on the same day, sir.

  10   Q.  And that is a picture, is it not, of you and

  11   Mr. Al-'Owhali in a cell, is that right?

  12   A.  Yes, sir.

  13            MR. COHN:  And will you publish Al-'Owhali K, please.

  14   Q.  And what is that?

  15   A.  That picture was also taken the same day.

  16   Q.  And that is a picture of you and a brother agent with

  17   Mr. Al-'Owhali; is that right?

  18   A.  Another FBI agent, yes, sir.

  19            MR. COHN:  Thank you.  You can take it down.

  20   Q.  Now, Mr. Al-'Owhali was arrested on August 12th, is that

  21   right, five days after the bombing?

  22   A.  Yes, sir, August 12th.

  23   Q.  And you were with Kenyan CID officers to go out and do

  24   whatever it was you were supposed to do on that day, is that

  25   right?


   1   A.  Yes, sir.

   2   Q.  And the CID officers went and made the arrest.  Is that

   3   right?

   4   A.  That's correct, sir.

   5   Q.  You weren't with them --

   6   A.  I was --

   7   Q.  -- at the time they made the arrest in the hotel room?

   8   A.  No, I wasn't in the hotel room.

   9   Q.  So you don't know of your own knowledge what was said to

  10   Mr. Al-'Owhali at that time?

  11   A.  I wasn't in the hotel room, sir, no.

  12   Q.  And he came downstairs and then he was put in the back of

  13   the truck with you; is that right?

  14   A.  Yes, sir.

  15   Q.  Now, did you tell him why he was arrested?

  16   A.  No, sir, I did not.

  17   Q.  In fact, the pretext used to arrest him was that he did

  18   not have ID; is that right?

  19            MR. BUTLER:  Objection, your Honor.

  20            THE COURT:  Sustained.

  21   Q.  The reason given for arresting him was that he did not

  22   have ID; is that right?

  23   A.  That's how it was explained to me, sir, yes.

  24   Q.  And you took him to the station, to the precinct, whatever

  25   it is that they call it in Nairobi; is that right?


   1   A.  It's the Kenyans took all of us to their headquarters, CID

   2   headquarters in Nairobi, sir.

   3   Q.  And when you got him to CID headquarters did you, did

   4   somebody advise him of his rights?

   5   A.  Yes, sir.

   6   Q.  In English?

   7   A.  Yes, sir.

   8   Q.  There was no interpreter present?

   9   A.  At the first time, no, sir.

  10   Q.  Now, that was read by you off a written form; is that

  11   right?

  12   A.  Yes, sir.

  13   Q.  And was the Arabic form translation of that given to him?

  14   A.  Didn't have one, sir.

  15   Q.  Didn't have one.  And did you ever have one during the

  16   entire period of the next nine days?

  17   A.  No, sir, I did not.

  18   Q.  So he never saw one in Arabic; is that right?

  19   A.  That's correct, sir.

  20   Q.  Now, you noticed at the time, and I think there was a

  21   series of pictures that you identified during direct, that he

  22   had a number of injuries; is that right?

  23   A.  The pictures we looked at yesterday?

  24   Q.  Yes.

  25   A.  Yes, sir.


   1   Q.  And those pictures were taken on the 13th or 14th, is that

   2   right?

   3   A.  No, sir, they were taken on the 12th.

   4   Q.  On the 12th.

   5            Could he we put up B, please.

   6            Now, these, Agent Gaudin, are the same pictures that

   7   we showed yesterday they are premarked as defense exhibits, is

   8   that right?

   9   A.  That looks like one of the pictures I saw yesterday.

  10            MR. COHN:  Could you blow up a portion.

  11   Q.  That is a injury to his left hand; is that right?

  12   A.  Right.  Yes, sir.

  13   Q.  And that's a laceration and that was about in the

  14   condition it was when you saw it; is that right?

  15   A.  Yes, sir.

  16   Q.  Now, you're not a physician?

  17   A.  No, sir.

  18   Q.  Did you get him medical attention immediately?

  19   A.  No, sir.

  20   Q.  Okay.

  21            MR. COHN:  Could we have B1, please.

  22   Q.  That was his right hand that is there.

  23            Could you blow up the portion of -- thank you very

  24   much.

  25   Q.  Now, that was his right hand and there is a laceration


   1   there?

   2   A.  And stitches, yes, sir.

   3   Q.  And is it fair to say that the hand or at least the thumb

   4   portion of the hand is noticeably swollen?

   5   A.  It looks he had an injury, you know, it looks --

   6   Q.  Does it look swollen to you or not?

   7   A.  A little bit, sir.

   8   Q.  Did you get him a doctor?

   9   A.  No, sir, I didn't.

  10   Q.  Did you know at the time that there was a broken bone?

  11   A.  No, sir, I did not.

  12   Q.  Did there come a time when you did learn that he had

  13   sustained a fracture?

  14   A.  No, sir.

  15            MR. COHN:  Would you put up E, please.  Blow it up.

  16   Q.  Do you know what a radial styloid nondisplaced comminuted

  17   fracture is?

  18   A.  No, sir, I do not.

  19   Q.  Fine.

  20            MR. COHN:  Will you put up B5, please.

  21   Q.  That's the way Mr. Al-'Owhali looked on the day he was

  22   arrested; is that right?

  23   A.  Yes, sir.

  24   Q.  That's the way he was dressed?

  25   A.  That was the picture that I took on the 12th, sir.


   1   Q.  And that picture is one of the exhibits that was shown to

   2   you yesterday; is that right?

   3   A.  Correct, sir.

   4            MR. COHN:  Could you put up B6.  Would you enlarge

   5   the forehead section.  Thank you.

   6   Q.  And those were the wounds that were in his forehead; is

   7   that right?

   8   A.  Yes, sir.

   9   Q.  You didn't have those looked at then either, did you?

  10   A.  No, sir, I didn't.

  11   Q.  It's a fact that he never received any medical attention

  12   until the 18th.  Is that right?

  13   A.  I don't remember the exact date, sir, but it was within a

  14   week of being there.

  15   Q.  So for a week more or less this person who was in -- he

  16   wasn't in your custody, he was in the custody of the Kenyans;

  17   is that right?

  18   A.  Yes, sir.

  19   Q.  And you had no control over him at all, did you, when he

  20   wasn't being interrogated by you, is that right?

  21   A.  No, sir, I did not have any control.

  22   Q.  Okay.  So he received to your knowledge no medical

  23   attention until finally he was seen by a doctor, I think an

  24   embassy doctor around the 18th or within a week?

  25   A.  Within a week, yes, sir, I believe that's correct.


   1   Q.  And you don't know whether he was in pain, whether he had

   2   medication, whether or not he had infections?  You don't know

   3   any of that?

   4   A.  He never expressed that to me, sir, no.

   5   Q.  The answer is no, you don't know that?

   6   A.  I did not, sir.

   7   Q.  Now, getting back to the interview, you did interview him

   8   on the 12th; is that right?

   9   A.  Yes, sir.

  10   Q.  And there were two interviews that day, were there not?

  11   A.  Yes, there were.

  12   Q.  And the first one -- what time was he arrested?

  13   A.  Around 10 o'clock in the morning, sir.

  14   Q.  Okay.  When did the first interview commence, if you know,

  15   and if you don't, you can refer to your notes if you have

  16   them.

  17   A.  I think it was around 11 o'clock.

  18   Q.  How long did that last?

  19   A.  The first interview lasted roughly 45 minutes to an hour.

  20   Q.  And then it stopped; is that right?

  21   A.  Yes, sir.

  22   Q.  And Mr. Al-'Owhali remained in general custody, in other

  23   words, with you -- by the way, at the interview there were CID

  24   agents, were there not?

  25   A.  Yes, sir.


   1   Q.  And in fact, at every interview you conducted between the

   2   12th and the 21st there were always CID people there?

   3   A.  Yes, sir.

   4   Q.  And did they ever ask a question?

   5   A.  Sometimes they did, sir.

   6   Q.  But rarely?

   7   A.  Sometimes they would ask a question through me or through

   8   the interviews, they would present questions.

   9   Q.  But rarely?

  10   A.  I don't know if I'd use the word rarely.  There was maybe

  11   10 percent of the time.

  12   Q.  10 percent of the time?

  13   A.  Maybe a little bit more.

  14   Q.  But they never spoke directly to Mr. Al-'Owhali?

  15   A.  Not exactly, sir, no.

  16   Q.  Just sat there, and you conducted, you and your colleagues

  17   in the FBI, conducted the interview?

  18   A.  At logical points we would confer with them, sir, and ask

  19   them questions on, how do you think we should proceed, are we

  20   going the right way?  Things like that.  But it was a team

  21   effort, sir.

  22   Q.  It was a team effort.  Did they take notes?

  23   A.  I don't remember, sir.

  24   Q.  You don't remember.  You were with them for nine days and

  25   you don't remember whether they took notes?


   1   A.  No, sir, I don't.

   2   Q.  And you certainly don't have their notes if they exist?

   3   A.  I do not have their notes, sir.

   4   Q.  Sir, the second interview started when on the 12th?

   5   A.  Actually, I'm sorry.  I do remember between the 22nd and

   6   25th someone was definitely taking notes for those days, but I

   7   don't remember --

   8   Q.  I'm not asking you about those.  I'm asking you during the

   9   period from the 12th through the 21st, right?

  10   A.  I apologize.

  11            MR. COHN:  And, your Honor, if you could instruct the

  12   witness to confine himself to my questions, perhaps it would

  13   be helpful.

  14            THE COURT:  Very well.  The witness is so instructed.

  15            THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

  16   Q.  So when did the second interview start?

  17   A.  On the 12th?

  18   Q.  On the 12th, yes.

  19   A.  I believe the second interview started sometime around 2

  20   or 3 o'clock.

  21   Q.  And Mr. Al-'Owhali was in the room with you until that

  22   started; is that right?

  23   A.  No, sir, I left.

  24   Q.  You left.  But Mr. Al-'Owhali was in the interview room

  25   during that entire period?


   1   A.  I'm not sure, sir.  I left.  I believe he was, but he may

   2   have been taken somewhere else and brought back.  I don't

   3   know.

   4   Q.  Okay.  When you came back were any of your brother agents,

   5   FBI agents, and when I say "brother agents," I'm referring to

   6   American FBI agents or other American police officials.  I'm

   7   not referring to the CID people from Nairobi, okay?

   8   A.  Yes, sir.

   9   Q.  Were any -- during the period when you were gone were any

  10   of your brother agents in the room with him?

  11   A.  I believe they were, but I was gone so I couldn't say for

  12   sure, sir.

  13   Q.  Okay.  But he, as far as you know, -- well, when you came

  14   back was there an interpreter already there?

  15   A.  No, sir.

  16   Q.  Okay.  So you secured the services -- and I say you

  17   generically -- you secured the services of an interpreter for

  18   the afternoon session; is that right?

  19   A.  That's why I left, sir.  I went to get an interpreter.

  20   Q.  Okay.  And when you came back, you put up a screen so that

  21   Mr. Al-'Owhali couldn't see the interpreter, is that right?  A

  22   blanket I think it was.

  23   A.  It was a blanket, yes, sir.

  24   Q.  And essentially, you essentially conducted, did something

  25   so you could string the blanket in such a way so


   1   Mr. Al-'Owhali could not see the interpreter?

   2   A.  It was more, yes, sir, that's correct.

   3   Q.  And so during this interview you or your colleagues would

   4   ask a question, and the interpreter would interpret, this

   5   disembodied voice from behind the screen, right?

   6   A.  That's correct, sir.  We were very close together though.

   7   Q.  And how long did that interview take?

   8   A.  I believe that that interview lasted several hours, maybe

   9   about three hours or so, maybe a little more.

  10   Q.  Okay.  And at the end of it you surrendered custody.

  11   Would you say it was about 4:30, 5 o'clock when it finished?

  12   A.  Maybe a little later than that, sir.

  13   Q.  6?

  14   A.  I don't think it was any later than 6.

  15   Q.  Okay.  So at the end of that time you surrendered custody

  16   of Mr. Al-'Owhali to the Kenyan authorities?

  17            MR. BUTLER:  Objection.  Form, your Honor.

  18            THE COURT:  All right.

  19   Q.  So at the end of the day the Kenyans took him to wherever

  20   they take him and you went about your business for the rest of

  21   the evening; is that right?

  22   A.  Yes, sir.

  23   Q.  And you don't know -- well, he was kept, if you know, at

  24   the precinct in which you were interviewing him, is that

  25   right, then on the 12th, sir?  Yes?


   1   A.  No, he was not.

   2   Q.  Do you know where he was taken?

   3   A.  They took him away in a vehicle.  They took him to another

   4   facility where they were housing prisoners, I believe.

   5   Q.  And you never saw that facility?

   6   A.  I've never been there, no, sir.

   7   Q.  So you don't know whether it was clean?

   8   A.  I'm sorry?

   9   Q.  You don't know whether it was clean?

  10   A.  I've never been inside.

  11   Q.  You don't know if it was filthy?

  12   A.  I've never been inside.

  13   Q.  You don't know if he had toilet facilities?

  14   A.  Sir, I don't.

  15   Q.  You don't know if he had a mattress?

  16   A.  I've never been there, sir.

  17   Q.  You don't know anything about the conditions in which he

  18   was kept?

  19   A.  That's true, sir.

  20   Q.  And apparently -- withdrawn.  And you have not inquired to

  21   make yourself knowledgeable about that?

  22   A.  I've seen pictures of it, sir.

  23   Q.  You've seen pictures of it.  Well, from the pictures that

  24   you've seen of that facility, that first two days, did he have

  25   a blanket?


   1   A.  I couldn't tell.  The pictures were taken, I believe the

   2   pictures were taken this year, so I don't know --

   3   Q.  So you don't know whether anybody before the pictures

   4   mopped up?

   5   A.  I have no idea, sir.

   6   Q.  Cleaned it up?

   7            MR. BUTLER:  Objection, your Honor.

   8            THE COURT:  Yes, sustained.

   9   Q.  Now, on the 13th so he was -- on the 13th he was

  10   interviewed again; is that right, by you?

  11   A.  Yes, sir.

  12   Q.  And again -- oh, by the way, on the 12th, did you have a

  13   tape recorder?

  14   A.  No, sir.

  15   Q.  Did you ever during the interview process over the next

  16   nine days bring a tape recorder?

  17   A.  No, sir.

  18   Q.  You testified on direct that at one point you showed him a

  19   tape on a VCR; is that right?

  20   A.  Yes, sir.

  21   Q.  Did you ever during the nine days or ever thereafter use a

  22   video camera to record accurately his testimony?

  23            MR. BUTLER:  Objection, your Honor.

  24            THE COURT:  I'll allow it.

  25   A.  I never used a videotape, sir, no, to record the


   1   interview, no.

   2   Q.  And you've been an agent for nine years; is that right?

   3   A.  Yes, sir.

   4   Q.  Have you ever used a tape recorder to memorialize the

   5   statement of somebody who you had interrogated?

   6   A.  No, sir, I haven't.

   7   Q.  And do you know of any agent that ever has?

   8   A.  I do not, sir.

   9   Q.  And in fact, it's policy not to use such electronic

  10   documentation, is it not?

  11   A.  I'm not sure exactly what the policy is.  I think there

  12   are some instances where you are encouraged to use that type

  13   of equipment, but I don't know all the details.

  14   Q.  But this was not one of them?

  15   A.  I've never used one in the entire time I've been in the

  16   FBI, sir.

  17   Q.  Let me understand something.  By the time you started

  18   interviewing Mr. Al-'Owhali you knew that there had been a

  19   massive destruction and over two hundred dead, and many, many

  20   wounded, is that right?

  21   A.  I didn't know the exact count but I knew it was a terrible

  22   tragedy, yes, sir.

  23   Q.  You knew that the deaths were at least in three figures

  24   and the injuries in four.  Is that right?

  25   A.  I don't remember that exactly, sir, but I, I think I know


   1   what you're saying, I knew there were a lot of people injured,

   2   yes.

   3   Q.  And you knew with some precision the number of Americans

   4   who had been killed at the embassy and the number of Kenyan

   5   employees at the embassy because you were there on a criminal

   6   investigation, right?

   7   A.  Like I said, I don't remember the exact numbers.  I don't

   8   remember being told the exact numbers.  I know there was an

   9   ongoing process, but I knew there were a number of both

  10   American and Kenyan people killed, yes, sir.

  11   Q.  And you were there on a criminal investigation.  This is

  12   not an intelligence gathering mission, was it not?

  13   A.  I went over there to, my general instructions were to

  14   assist in whatever way I could in the investigation.

  15   Q.  Sir, you knew that you were there for the purposes of a

  16   criminal investigation?

  17   A.  For an investigation, yes, sir.

  18   Q.  Well, the FBI has no foreign intelligence gathering

  19   authority, does it?

  20   A.  I don't work on that side of the house, sir.  I'm not

  21   really positive on all that.

  22   Q.  So on the second day, the 13th, he was interviewed again;

  23   is that right?

  24   A.  On the 13th he was, yes, sir.

  25   Q.  What time did that start and finish?


   1   A.  I believe that interview started probably around noon or

   2   so, lasted a couple of hours.

   3   Q.  Lasted a couple of hours?

   4   A.  Actually later in the day, I'm sorry, on the 13th.

   5   Q.  So during the period from approximately 6 o'clock the

   6   night before until a little after 12, whether it was 1 or 2,

   7   for that intervening period, you don't know what anybody said

   8   to him, right?

   9   A.  No, sir, I don't.

  10   Q.  You don't know if he was threatened by the Kenyans?

  11   A.  No, sir.

  12   Q.  Did you ever talk to the Kenyan CID agents on a social

  13   level?  I mean, you know, pass the time of day?  They spoke

  14   English, right?

  15   A.  Yes, sir.

  16   Q.  Did they tell you how upset they were with what happened

  17   in their country and to their countrymen?

  18   A.  They were all, you know, as anybody else would be, they

  19   were saddened by what had happened.

  20   Q.  They were angry, weren't they?

  21   A.  I didn't see anybody expression any anger, but sadness,

  22   more.

  23   Q.  Well, I mean, if you were in a city where there was a

  24   massive explosion and hundreds of your countrymen were killed

  25   you'd be angry, wouldn't you?


   1            MR. BUTLER:  Objection.

   2            THE COURT:  Sustained.

   3   Q.  So, anyway, your interview took a couple of -- the second

   4   interview took a couple of hours, is that right?

   5   A.  Generally, sir.

   6   Q.  Back he went into Kenyan custody, is that right?

   7   A.  On Tuesday?

   8   Q.  On Tuesday or whatever day that was.  I don't know the

   9   days of the week.  I'm referring to the 13th.

  10   A.  I'll say it the same way, then, sir, the 13th he went

  11   back.

  12   Q.  And once again, you don't know what happened?  You don't

  13   know what was said to him?  And you don't know the conditions

  14   of confinement?

  15   A.  Correct, sir.

  16   Q.  The 14th was there an interview?

  17   A.  Yes, sir, there was.

  18   Q.  And what time was that interview?

  19   A.  I think that day we started much later in the day,

  20   probably around 4 o'clock, 3 o'clock, something like that.

  21   Q.  So by that time, is it fair to say, he had been in

  22   custody -- by the way, after the first day, you know, don't

  23   you, that he was kept in isolation, that he had no roommates,

  24   is that right?

  25   A.  No, sir, I didn't know that.


   1   Q.  You didn't know that?

   2   A.  No.

   3   Q.  And you don't know that today?

   4   A.  No, sir.

   5   Q.  In any event, more or less he was kept by the Kenyans for

   6   approximately 24 hours before he saw you between the interview

   7   of the 13th and the interview of the 14th?

   8   A.  I don't know if it was, almost 24 hours.

   9   Q.  Give or take, I mean we didn't have a stop watch.

  10   A.  Okay, sir.

  11   Q.  And how long did that interview take?

  12   A.  This interview took a couple of hours on the 14th.

  13   Q.  And then back into Kenyan custody?

  14   A.  Yes, sir.

  15   Q.  And there was no interview on the 15th; is that right?

  16   A.  No, sir.

  17   Q.  And there was no interview on the 16th; is that right?

  18   A.  That's correct, sir.

  19   Q.  So that's another 48 hours unsupervised by American

  20   officials in Kenyan custody, is that right?

  21   A.  Sir, I did see him on the 16th.

  22   Q.  You saw him on the 16th?

  23   A.  On the Sunday, the 16th, yes, sir.

  24   Q.  Went to his cell?

  25   A.  Yes, sir, he had --


   1   Q.  You went to his cell, yes?

   2   A.  Yes, sir.

   3   Q.  And you were given access by the Kenyan authorities, were

   4   you not?

   5   A.  Yes, sir.

   6   Q.  And, in fact, you brought him a container of milk, didn't

   7   you?

   8   A.  I believe I did, sir.

   9   Q.  And so aside from your -- I mean your visit took what, 15

  10   minutes?

  11   A.  About that, sir.

  12   Q.  You didn't interrogate him?

  13   A.  No, sir.

  14   Q.  I mean you weren't authorized to interrogate him under

  15   those conditions; is that right?

  16   A.  There was no authorization or lack of authorization.  We

  17   just didn't interview him on that day.

  18   Q.  Your visit with the milk was an act of pure friendship, is

  19   that right?

  20   A.  Yes, sir.  Kindness I guess.

  21   Q.  Guidance?

  22   A.  Kindness.

  23   Q.  Kindness?

  24   A.  Yes, sir.

  25   Q.  By this time you already, he had been charged with murder


   1   by the Kenyan authorities, is that right?

   2   A.  I don't believe so, sir.

   3   Q.  You knew by the end of the second day that he was a

   4   suspect in the murder investigation; is that right?

   5   A.  He became a suspect, yes, sir.

   6   Q.  And so that he was being held on account of it was

   7   believed that he had something to do with the murder of many,

   8   many people and the serious injury to a lot more, yes?

   9   A.  I believe so, sir.

  10   Q.  And so you brought him milk on a sudden whim on the 14th

  11   out of pure kindness?

  12            MR. BUTLER:  Objection to form, your Honor.

  13            THE COURT:  Sustained.

  14   Q.  I'll withdraw the sudden whim.  You brought him the milk

  15   on the 14th -- on that Sunday out of pure kindness?

  16   A.  When I spoke to him I asked him if he needed anything.  He

  17   said he would like some milk, and that's why I brought him

  18   milk.

  19   Q.  Sir, sir, I'm asking you a question --

  20            MR. BUTLER:  Objection.

  21   Q.  The answer to that is no.  What you spoke to him about and

  22   what he said is irrelevant.

  23            MR. BUTLER:  Objection, your Honor.

  24            THE COURT:  You're asking him what his reason for

  25   doing it was.  You want a yes or no?


   1            MR. COHN:  Yes.  He said it was kindness, so I'm

   2   asking him, is it kindness.

   3            THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir, kindness.

   4            THE COURT:  By the way, the day I believe it was

   5   testified was Sunday the 16th, not the 14th.

   6   Q.  Now, on the 17th there was another interview, is that

   7   right?

   8   A.  Monday the 17th, yes, sir.

   9   Q.  How long was that interview?

  10   A.  A couple hours.

  11   Q.  What time did it start?

  12   A.  I think on Monday we started around 11 o'clock or so.

  13   Q.  So it went till 1 more or less?

  14   A.  Maybe 2 or 3.

  15   Q.  Maybe 2 or 3.  So it could have been four hours?

  16   A.  It could have been four hours, yes, sir.

  17   Q.  You didn't keep time records on when it started and ended,

  18   on this interview?

  19   A.  I did not.

  20   Q.  And still no tape recorder?

  21   A.  No, sir.

  22   Q.  And afterwards he was put back into Kenyan custody; is

  23   that right?

  24   A.  Yes, sir.

  25            MR. BUTLER:  Objection to form, your Honor.


   1            THE COURT:  Sustained.

   2   Q.  Afterwards he was, the Kenyans took him wherever they take

   3   him?

   4   A.  They brought him back to the holding cell at CID

   5   headquarters right in the building that we were interviewing

   6   him.

   7   Q.  Now, on the 18th, no interview?

   8   A.  No, sir.

   9   Q.  You didn't bring him milk or anything else that day?

  10   A.  I don't believe I did, sir.

  11   Q.  What about the 19th?

  12   A.  The 19th I don't believe I did, no, sir.

  13   Q.  You didn't.  And there was no interview?

  14   A.  No, sir, there wasn't.

  15   Q.  So that was another 48 hours during which there was no FBI

  16   supervision of his custody; is that right?

  17   A.  Supervision, no, sir.

  18   Q.  And in which you were not present in his cell for any

  19   appreciable period of time?

  20   A.  I may have just checked on him just, you know, maybe I

  21   might have saw him face to face, but I didn't interrogate him

  22   and I didn't spend a substantial amount of time there, no.

  23   Q.  And, again, I may have asked you this.  You had no control

  24   over his conditions of confinement, is that right?

  25   A.  No, sir, I didn't.


   1            MR. COHN:  Publish exhibit G, please.

   2   Q.  Do you recognize exhibit G?

   3   A.  Yes, sir, I do.

   4   Q.  And what is it?

   5   A.  That is a magazine, that would be part of the Sunday

   6   newspaper, the Kenyan newspaper.

   7   Q.  The cover of the magazine to be precise; is that right?

   8   A.  It's a cover.

   9   Q.  It's not the whole magazine?

  10   A.  Sorry, yes, it's the cover of the magazine.

  11   Q.  You remember that there was a time when you visited his

  12   cell and you saw him looking at this magazine; is that right?

  13   A.  Yes, sir, I did.

  14   Q.  And did you not instruct the Kenyan guards that they

  15   should remove that magazine?

  16   A.  No, sir.

  17   Q.  You didn't make such an instruction?

  18   A.  I had a conversation with them, sir.

  19   Q.  You had a conversation.  And in that conversation you made

  20   the suggestion that they get it out of there.  Is that right?

  21   A.  No, sir, I asked them the question, if he's supposed to

  22   have anything to read.  How did he get that.  Is he allowed to

  23   read, is he allowed to have that.  And they said he's not.

  24   Q.  And as a result of your conversation or calling it to

  25   their kind attention they remove the magazine, is that right?


   1   A.  That's correct, sir.

   2   Q.  And in fact, they told you that he was not supposed to

   3   have anything to read at all when he was in their custody; is

   4   that right?

   5   A.  I don't believe that was said, sir.

   6   Q.  Well, you asked is he allowed to have the magazine?  They

   7   said, no.  So I mean --

   8   A.  Right.

   9   Q.  I mean did you ask them if he was allowed to read Proust?

  10   A.  No, I didn't ask him anything like that.

  11   Q.  Now, on the 20th there was an event, there was an

  12   identification parade; is that right?

  13   A.  Yes, sir, on the 20th.

  14   Q.  And could you explain to the jury what an identification

  15   parade is?

  16   A.  Yes, sir.  An identification parade is a Kenyan term what

  17   we would call a lineup.  Do you want me to go any further than

  18   that?

  19   Q.  Well, that's -- is it fair to say that it's an opportunity

  20   for people who may have had a chance to see somebody do

  21   something, see if they can identify him under conditions that

  22   are not suggestive?

  23   A.  I guess you can describe it like that, yes, sir.

  24   Q.  Is that a fair -- I mean, I'll take any description you

  25   want to do?


   1   A.  It's fair.  It's up to you, sir.

   2            MR. COHN:  Will you publish exhibit D, please.

   3   Q.  Now, what is exhibit D?

   4   A.  Sir, this picture on my screen right here is the picture

   5   of the people who were part of the lineup.  There are nine

   6   people in total that the CID had put in to be subjects of the

   7   lineup, and Mr. Al-'Owhali is in between the fourth and fifth

   8   person.

   9   Q.  And this picture was taken by one of your colleagues, was

  10   it not?

  11   A.  I may have taken this picture, yes, sir.

  12   Q.  It's taken by an FBI agent.  This is not something that

  13   CID took?

  14   A.  Correct, sir.

  15   Q.  And Mr. Al-'Owhali is in the center; is that right?

  16   A.  He's the fifth person from the left, sir.

  17   Q.  And also the fifth person from the right?

  18   A.  Correct, sir.

  19   Q.  The center.  Now, a number of people viewed that parade

  20   that day; is that right?

  21   A.  Yes, sir.

  22   Q.  Six.  Is that correct?

  23   A.  That's correct, sir, six people.

  24   Q.  And he was identified by the first person; is that right?

  25   A.  Yes, he was.


   1   Q.  And the following five people did not identify him; is

   2   that correct?

   3   A.  That's correct, sir.

   4   Q.  Are you aware that the first person who identified him had

   5   assisted in making a composite picture of him?

   6   A.  At the time then or now?

   7   Q.  Are you aware of it now?

   8   A.  I'm aware of it now, yes, sir.

   9   Q.  Are you aware that one of the people who failed to

  10   identify him had also assisted in another composite picture?

  11   A.  No, sir.

  12   Q.  And you're not aware of that now?

  13   A.  No, sir.

  14   Q.  Okay.  But of the six people brought to the parade five

  15   failed to identify him?

  16   A.  Five.  One person identified him of the six.  The other

  17   people didn't pick anyone, no, sir.

  18   Q.  So six minus one equals five, is that right?

  19            MR. BUTLER:  Objection, your Honor.

  20            THE COURT:  Sustained.

  21   Q.  How long did the parade take?

  22   A.  I believe it lasted about 45 minutes to an hour.

  23   Q.  Okay.  After that once again the Kenyans took custody of

  24   him?

  25   A.  Yes, sir.


   1   Q.  Because he was the Kenyans prisoner?

   2   A.  Yes, sir.

   3   Q.  On the 21st you had another interview with him; is that

   4   right?

   5   A.  Yes, sir, on the 21st.

   6   Q.  And how long after the interview -- how long did that

   7   interview continue?

   8   A.  On the 21st I'd say it probably also lasted about two

   9   hours.

  10   Q.  And it was at that point --

  11            MR. COHN:  Can you put up exhibit I again, please.

  12   J, I'm sorry.  No, this is it.  That's the right one.  I'm

  13   sorry.

  14   Q.  It's at that point that you decided to take his

  15   fingerprints; is that correct?

  16   A.  No, sir, that was taken before the interview.

  17   Q.  That was taken before the interview?

  18   A.  The fingerprints were taken before the interview.

  19   Q.  And what about exhibit J, before or after the interview?

  20   A.  Before the interview.

  21   Q.  And K, before the interview?

  22   A.  All three of those photos were taken before the interview.

  23   Q.  By the way, there is a system in place in Kenya for

  24   logging in photographs as exhibits; is that right?

  25   A.  I'm not sure, sir.


   1   Q.  You're not sure?

   2   A.  I'm not sure.

   3   Q.  Nobody told you about what to do with photographs if you

   4   took them.  Is that right?  You were not briefed on this?

   5   A.  For the Kenyans?

   6   Q.  No, by the Americans.  By the FBI itself.

   7   A.  Is there an FBI procedure what to do with photographs?

   8   Q.  Yes.

   9   A.  Yes, sir.

  10   Q.  And there was one in place in Kenya, was there not?

  11   A.  Yes, sir.

  12   Q.  And in fact, there was somebody who was in charge of that,

  13   was there not?

  14   A.  More or less, yes, sir.

  15   Q.  Were these photographs logged in?

  16   A.  No, sir, they weren't.

  17   Q.  And, in fact, in regard to J and K, you kept them as

  18   memorabilia for a while, did you not?

  19   A.  Not true, sir.

  20   Q.  Well, you testified at another proceeding, did you not?

  21   A.  Yes, sir, I did, sir.

  22   Q.  And at the other proceeding, as part of the other

  23   proceeding, you were asked to read in advance an affidavit

  24   made by a public official; is that right?

  25   A.  More or less, yes, sir.


   1   Q.  And you testified at that proceeding, did you not, that

   2   you had looked at it very carefully, and that the

   3   representations made in it were true, is that right?

   4   A.  To the best of my ability, yes, sir.

   5   Q.  And were you aware when you looked at it that there was a

   6   note that said that you had taken these pictures and placed

   7   them in memorabilia, and that only later had you realized

   8   their importance and brought them recently?  Do you recall

   9   that?

  10   A.  I don't recall that exact word, no, sir.

  11   Q.  You don't?

  12   A.  No, sir.

  13   Q.  Do you recall any approximate wording like that?

  14   A.  Not really, sir, no.  I took pictures, I found those

  15   pictures much later after I was asked to find any pictures of

  16   Mr. Al-'Owhali's cell and I found those pictures.

  17   Q.  You found them much later.  What do you mean by much

  18   later, a year?

  19   A.  I found these pictures in January of this year.

  20   Q.  This year?

  21   A.  Of 2001.

  22   Q.  Of 2001?

  23   A.  Yes, sir.

  24   Q.  After they were taken on the 21st of August, 1998?

  25   A.  Yes, sir.


   1   Q.  And where did you find these pictures?

   2   A.  Someone had given those pictures to me much later.  They

   3   didn't get those pictures while I was in Kenya.  I got them

   4   somewhere when I was in transfer back and forth between the US

   5   as I continued on in this investigation.  I put those pictures

   6   in an accordion folder along with other miscellaneous

   7   documents.  By the time I got those pictures, by the time I

   8   actually received a hard copy of those pictures they were

   9   pretty much irrelevant to me to tell you the truth.

  10   Q.  Well, let me ask you, is it fair to say that when those

  11   pictures J and K were taken you already knew that

  12   Mr. Al-'Owhali had expressed a preference to be -- withdrawn.

  13            At the time you took those pictures you knew that

  14   Mr. Al-'Owhali was about to confess, didn't you?

  15   A.  No, sir, I didn't.

  16   Q.  You didn't?

  17   A.  No, sir.

  18   Q.  You didn't know that Mr. Al-'Owhali would the next day say

  19   he would rather be, that in consideration of being tried in

  20   America rather than Kenya -- by the way, does Kenya have a

  21   death penalty?

  22            MR. BUTLER:  Objection, your Honor.

  23            THE COURT:  Sustained.

  24   Q.  Well, do you know if Kenya has a death penalty?

  25            MR. BUTLER:  Objection.


   1   A.  I do not, sir.

   2            MR. COHN:  I'm sorry.  I didn't hear the Court's

   3   ruling.  He said, I did not.  Okay, he doesn't know.

   4            THE COURT:  The witness has responded.

   5   Q.  In all the time you were there --

   6            THE COURT:  Give me an opportunity to rule before you

   7   answer.

   8   Q.  In all the time you were there you never discussed with

   9   your CID colleagues what the potential penalty in Kenya was

  10   for killing two hundred people?

  11            MR. BUTLER:  Objection, your Honor.

  12            THE COURT:  Sustained.

  13   Q.  So let's go back.  It's your testimony that you didn't

  14   know at the time you took those pictures, which didn't show up

  15   for a year and a half, that the interrogation had been

  16   successful and he was about to agree to come to the United

  17   States.  Is that right?

  18   A.  That's correct, sir.  I did not know that he was going to

  19   confess when we took those pictures or those fingerprints.

  20            MR. COHN:  Put up exhibit C.

  21   Q.  Do you know when that picture was taken?

  22   A.  I don't know the exact date, sir, but I believe it was

  23   taken after the 20th of August.  I'm sorry, after the 20th of

  24   August.

  25   Q.  So the 21st or thereafter?


   1   A.  I'm sorry, when I say after the 20th, I mean the 20th or

   2   thereafter.

   3   Q.  Thereafter.

   4   A.  Right.

   5   Q.  Close upon the time in which the government agreed to take

   6   Mr. Al-'Owhali to the United States where he wanted to be; is

   7   that right?

   8            MR. BUTLER:  Objection, your Honor.

   9            MR. COHN:  I'm sorry, your Honor?

  10            THE COURT:  Restate the question.

  11            MR. COHN:  I don't think I have to, your Honor.  I

  12   have nothing further.

  13            THE COURT:  Anybody else?

  14            MR. RICCO:  Yes, your Honor.

  15            MR. COHN:  Excuse me, your Honor.  Just bear with me.

  16            (Pause)

  17            MR. COHN:  Thank you.  I am through.

  18            THE COURT:  Mr. Ricco on behalf of defendant Odeh.

  19            MR. COHN:  Your Honor, I'm sorry.  I apologize.  A

  20   couple of more questions.

  21   Q.  When you interviewed him on the 22nd he gave you a rather

  22   extensive personal history, didn't he?

  23   A.  If you mean he described in detail about his training in

  24   Afghanistan, yes, sir.

  25   Q.  Well, he said, for instance, that his mother had a


   1   profound effect on him and that she placed him in religious --

   2   and that's why he had such a religious upbringing, did he not

   3   tell you that?

   4   A.  He, there was a number of reasons why his religion became

   5   so important to him.  I believe one of them was his mother was

   6   influential in religion.

   7   Q.  Well, if you need to refresh your recollection, why don't

   8   you look at your report on page 2?

   9   A.  Report I looked at earlier, sir?

  10   Q.  Yes.

  11   A.  Okay, sir.

  12   Q.  Look at the second paragraph.  Did he tell you about his

  13   mother's having a profound effect on him and his strong

  14   religious upbringing?

  15   A.  Yes, sir.

  16   Q.  He told you that around age 14 he began being

  17   indoctrinated in conservative Islamic teaching?

  18   A.  Yes, sir.

  19   Q.  By the way, again, you mentioned it on direct, he was born

  20   on January 18th?

  21   A.  I believe I said that, yes, sir.

  22   Q.  1977?

  23   A.  I believe so.

  24   Q.  And in 1989 he would have been how old?

  25   A.  12?  1989?


   1   Q.  Yes.

   2   A.  Ten in '87, about 12.

   3   Q.  And he said that he secretly read magazines which promoted

   4   his religious beliefs among which were Al Jihad, is that

   5   right?

   6   A.  Yes, sir.

   7   Q.  And that he admired books on people who had been martyred

   8   in the defense of Islam; is that right?

   9   A.  Something to that effect, yes.

  10   Q.  He told you that during his high school years all he cared

  11   about was the Muslim brotherhood, didn't he?

  12   A.  Yes, sir.

  13   Q.  Now, and he also said that the college he went to for two

  14   years was a college that was primarily engaged in religious

  15   teaching, did he not?

  16   A.  He described it as a religious university.

  17   Q.  Now, you testified on direct, also, I believe, that he

  18   went to Afghanistan and went to training schools there, is

  19   that right?

  20   A.  Yes, sir.

  21   Q.  And he went there before he had met Usama Bin Laden; is

  22   that right?

  23   A.  I believe so, sir.

  24   Q.  And he didn't meet Usama Bin Laden until he had finished

  25   some training and afterwards he got other training; is that


   1   right?

   2   A.  Based on what he told me, yes, sir.

   3   Q.  Now, you don't believe that he was a confidante of Usama

   4   Bin Laden, do you?

   5   A.  I don't know to answer that sir.

   6   Q.  I mean he's 22, or 21, right?

   7   A.  I don't see what that has to do --

   8   Q.  Do you know what confidante means?

   9   A.  You mean was he --

  10   Q.  Was he inducted --

  11   A.  Got close to him?

  12   Q.  -- into the higher circles of Usama Bin Laden who

  13   consulted him on important decisions?

  14   A.  He told me that he had sought a decision directly from

  15   Usama Bin Laden, was what he told me.

  16   Q.  His mission was to kill himself, is that right?

  17   A.  He didn't tell me at that time, no, sir.

  18   Q.  That's what you know, right?

  19   A.  That's one of the missions he got.

  20   Q.  He was supposed to take all this training and all their

  21   association and blow himself up, right?

  22   A.  If he chose to accept the mission, yes, sir.

  23   Q.  That's what he was supposed to do and he did, didn't he?

  24   A.  He didn't blow up, sir, no.

  25            MR. COHN:  No.  And you told us the reason why not.


   1   Thank you very much.

   2            THE COURT:  Mr. Ricco on behalf of Mr. Odeh.

   3            MR. RICCO:  Just a few requests.


   5   BY MR. RICCO:

   6   Q.  Good morning, Agent Gaudin.

   7   A.  Good morning, sir.

   8   Q.  I just want to ask you a few questions.

   9            During your interview with Mr. Al-'Owhali you

  10   discovered a great deal of information about the bombing of

  11   the US embassy, isn't that right?

  12   A.  That's correct, sir.

  13   Q.  Now, Mr. Al-'Owhali explained to you in detail his

  14   involvement, correct?

  15   A.  His involvement, yes, sir.

  16   Q.  He also explained to you and identified to you names of

  17   other individuals that participated in the execution of the

  18   bombing, isn't that correct?

  19   A.  Yes, sir.

  20            (Continued on next page)







   1   Q.  He also explained to you in detail the names of

   2   individuals who had participated, to his knowledge, in the

   3   planning of the bombing?

   4   A.  What he said to me regarding the names, sir, were things

   5   were going to be code names -- I'm sorry, the names that he

   6   was going to describe to me during the interviews would be

   7   code names or movement names.  They may not in fact be

   8   people's true names but the names that he may have known them

   9   as.

  10   Q.  Okay.  And one of those names, code names, movement names,

  11   was a name Harun?

  12   A.  Harun, yes, sir.

  13   Q.  And another one was the name Saleh?

  14   A.  Saleh, yes, sir.

  15   Q.  And another one was Ahmed Abdallah, also known as Ahmed

  16   the German, correct?

  17   A.  That was another one, yes, sir.

  18   Q.  And another one was the name of a young man named Azzam,

  19   who blew himself up in the execution of the bombing; isn't

  20   that correct?

  21   A.  Yes, sir.

  22   Q.  In addition to the names, he also named a person named

  23   Khalid, a Saudi Arabian who provided him with instructions

  24   regarding his role even before he got to Nairobi, isn't that

  25   right?


   1   A.  Yes, sir, that's true.

   2   Q.  And these individuals, he gave you more than just a name,

   3   he described them, right?

   4   A.  To a certain degree, yes, sir.

   5   Q.  As best he could?

   6   A.  I wouldn't go as far as "as best he could."  As best as he

   7   wanted to tell me, sir.

   8   Q.  Let's see.  For example, he told you what Harun looked

   9   like, his complexion?

  10   A.  That's true.

  11   Q.  His height?

  12   A.  Yes, sir.

  13   Q.  His weight?

  14   A.  Approximately.

  15   Q.  Right?

  16   A.  Yes, sir.

  17   Q.  He did the same with each one of these individuals; isn't

  18   that correct?

  19   A.  That's correct, sir.

  20   Q.  He also looked at photographs and said "that's the guy

  21   Harun" when he looked at the videotape?

  22   A.  Yes, sir.

  23   Q.  When he looked at another photograph, he said "that's the

  24   guy Azzam"?

  25   A.  That's correct, sir.


   1   Q.  Now, he also told you that he stayed at a house that was

   2   either owned by or under the direction of Harun; isn't that

   3   correct?

   4   A.  That's correct.

   5   Q.  And he said at the house he was advised and told that the

   6   bomb was made at the house; isn't that correct?

   7   A.  That's correct, sir.

   8   Q.  He also said that he had been shown photographs and

   9   diagrams of the embassy at the house, that's what he told you,

  10   right?

  11   A.  Yes, sir.

  12   Q.  He also indicated to you that he had left the keys and

  13   bullets behind in a location, correct?

  14   A.  Yes, sir.

  15   Q.  And when the Kenyan investigators or people went out, they

  16   actually found those things in the place that he said he left

  17   them at, isn't that right?

  18   A.  They were found before he told us about them, sir.  The

  19   keys and the bullets were found where ultimately he said they

  20   were, but not because he told us.  The Kenyans had already

  21   found those bullets and then he told us where they were.

  22   Q.  Okay.

  23   A.  Okay, I'm trying to clarify.

  24   Q.  He told you the bullets were left somewhere and, lo and

  25   behold, they were left there?


   1   A.  That's true, sir.

   2   Q.  And this young man gave you more information about his

   3   role and the others; isn't that correct?

   4   A.  Yes, sir.

   5   Q.  I think I said this, but he also indicated that there were

   6   surveillance photographs and diagrams shown to him of the

   7   embassy?

   8   A.  Yes, sir.

   9   Q.  He also said that Saleh took him out to look at the

  10   embassy?

  11   A.  That's correct.

  12   Q.  Right?

  13   A.  Yes, sir.

  14   Q.  And during the interview of him over these days, several

  15   photographs were shown to young Al-'Owhali; isn't that

  16   correct?

  17   A.  That's correct, sir.

  18   Q.  And one of the photographs that you showed him was a

  19   photograph of Mohamed Odeh?

  20   A.  That's not true, sir.

  21   Q.  Okay.  You did not show him a photograph of Mohamed Odeh?

  22   A.  No, sir, I did not.

  23   Q.  Was that a conscious decision?

  24   A.  On my part it was, yes, sir.

  25   Q.  And did he ever mention to you that Mohamed Odeh had


   1   anything whatsoever to do with the bombing, the execution of

   2   or the planning of the bombing of the United States embassy?

   3   A.  He never mentioned Odeh's name, no, sir.

   4            MR. RICCO:  I have no further questions.  Thank you

   5   very much, your Honor.

   6            THE COURT:  Anything further from defendants with

   7   respect to this witness?

   8            MR. DRATEL:  No, your Honor.

   9            MR. COHN:  No, your Honor.

  10            THE COURT:  We'll take a brief recess.

  11            (Jury not present)

  12            THE COURT:  I want to resolve the matter of a

  13   limiting instruction before we begin redirect.

  14            I'll be in the robing room.  Please let me know

  15   whether you have reached an agreement on it or not.

  16            (Recess)

  17            THE COURT:  Have counsel reached an agreement as to

  18   the language of the instruction?

  19            MR. KARAS:  We're just trying to hone in the last

  20   couple of sentences, your Honor.

  21            THE COURT:  Last couple of sentences?

  22            MR. DRATEL:  Last sentence.

  23            MR. KARAS:  Last sentence, actually.

  24            MR. FITZGERALD:  In the meantime, your Honor, if I

  25   could just put on the record that the following witness will


   1   be Charles Mwaka Mula, and we would not like him sketched to

   2   prevent the identification of the witness.

   3            THE COURT:  Anyone here from CNN or any other press?

   4   Any press present?

   5            (Hands raised in the gallery)

   6            THE COURT:  All right, if any sketch artist arrives,

   7   would you please advise that the next witness's facial

   8   features should not be sketched.

   9            A MARSHAL:  Yes, your Honor.

  10            MR. FITZGERALD:  And the witnesses following him

  11   until Donald Sachtleben -- Sachtleben is an FBI agent, but the

  12   civilians until Sachtleben, we would object to the sketching.

  13            MR. COHN:  Your Honor, my client has an application

  14   which should be made in closed court.

  15            THE COURT:  He has an application?

  16            MR. COHN:  Yes, your Honor.  It's going to have to be

  17   separate.

  18            THE COURT:  It's something that has to be dealt with

  19   now?

  20            MR. COHN:  I believe so.  It's probably not a subject

  21   that should be raised with other counsel.

  22            THE COURT:  All right.  I will see the defendant

  23   Al-'Owhali and Mr. Cohn and the court reporter in the robing

  24   room, and that will give other counsel an opportunity to work

  25   out the language.


   1            It's not the most complex school of evidence that one

   2   is confronted with.

   3            (Pages 2093 through 2096 filed under seal)

   4            (Continued on next page)























   1            (In open court)

   2            THE COURT:  Two matters:  First matter is, has there

   3   been an agreement on the language?

   4            MR. KARAS:  Yes, your Honor.

   5            THE COURT:  With what, does somebody have it in

   6   writing?

   7            MR. KARAS:  I have it in writing, yes.

   8            THE COURT:  Will you state it on the record.

   9            MR. KARAS:  Yes, Judge.  The instruction would be as

  10   follows:

  11            You have heard testimony regarding the statements

  12   allegedly made by the defendants Odeh and Al-'Owhali.  You may

  13   consider these statements as evidence of the activities only

  14   of the people who made the statements, and that is relevant to

  15   the case.

  16            You may consider the evidence of these statements if

  17   you feel that they are probative in this direction.  You may

  18   consider the evidence of these statements on the issue of

  19   whether there was or was not a conspiracy to kill United

  20   States nationals or a conspiracy to bomb buildings or the

  21   other charged conspiracies, and whether the conspiracies

  22   included the bombings of the embassies in Nairobi, Kenya and

  23   Dar es Salaam, Tanzania.

  24            I remind you that the defendant El Hage is not

  25   charged with participating in the embassy bombings.


   1            At the end of the trial I will give you the

   2   instructions on the law that you will apply to this case.

   3   Among those instructions will be further guidance on the use

   4   of the statements allegedly made by the defendants and any

   5   limitation.

   6            The reason for that, your Honor, is as follows:  The

   7   statements, in addition to being probative of the existence

   8   and the scope of the charged conspiracies, may also be

   9   relevant to the defendant Odeh and the defendant Al-'Owhali as

  10   to the Dar es Salaam bombings which may rest on a Pinkerton

  11   theory, and there is some support in the case law that

  12   suggests that statements that come in under 804(b)(3) may be

  13   used in those circumstances but would not be admissible

  14   against the defendant El Hage.

  15            THE COURT:  Mr. Dratel, that statement is acceptable

  16   to you?

  17            MR. DRATEL:  With the understanding with the

  18   government, and just to alert the Court, that that last

  19   sentence, which is that the Court -- that the jury will be

  20   further instructed really relates to delineating the

  21   difference between the defendants, which we all feel too

  22   complex right now in terms of Pinkerton v. non-Pinkerton and

  23   the limitation of the use of the statements against El Hage.

  24            THE COURT:  There are very serious Pinkerton issues

  25   in this case, but I didn't think we were addressing them now.


   1   I thought we were addressing the ability of the jury to use a

   2   statement made by co-conspirator not in furtherance of the

   3   conspiracy with respect to other defendants.  That is what I

   4   thought was the thrust of your request for a limiting

   5   instruction.

   6            And I don't know that that really addresses it, but

   7   if there is unanimous agreement that that is a limiting

   8   instruction that I should give, I will give it.  And I will,

   9   of course, in my final instructions to the jury, spell out at

  10   greater length the difference between statements made in

  11   furtherance of a conspiracy and furtherance statements which

  12   are not in furtherance of the conspiracy.

  13            MR. DRATEL:  If I may have one second, your Honor.

  14            THE COURT:  One other matter, and that is I am going

  15   to allow Mr. Cohn to ask some further questions on

  16   cross-examination before the government's redirect.

  17            MR. DRATEL:  Your Honor, we've discussed with counsel

  18   with the government.  We'll hold off on it right now.

  19            THE COURT:  We'll hold off on what?

  20            MR. DRATEL:  The instruction.

  21            THE COURT:  On any instruction?

  22            MR. DRATEL:  On any instruction right now.

  23            THE COURT:  I'm not entirely comfortable with that.

  24   I think the instruction is, if anything, somewhat late and I'm

  25   just sort of wondering about all the time we spent yesterday


   1   morning on matters that I think are of considerably less

   2   moment.

   3            I will tell the jury that I will in due course

   4   explain to them the extent, if any, to which statements made

   5   by Al-'Owhali while he was in custody may be used with respect

   6   to the other defendants, and that they should now just bear in

   7   mind that such instruction will ultimately be given.

   8            All right, let's bring in the witness and the jury.

   9            (Jury present)

  10            THE COURT:  Ladies and gentlemen, I just want to

  11   alert you to one matter, which I will address later, and that

  12   is there are special rules of evidence which relate to the

  13   extent, if any, to which statements made by an alleged

  14   conspirator after he is in custody, the extent to which such

  15   statements may be used or considered by you with respect to

  16   other defendants.

  17            And I will certainly, before you begin any

  18   deliberation, explain in some detail those rules, and my only

  19   point now is to alert you that those instructions will be

  20   given to you and that there are special rules which do apply

  21   when a statement is made by a codefendant after he is arrested

  22   with respect to the circumstances surrounding the matters

  23   about which he is questioned.

  24            Mr. Cohn has requested on behalf of defendant

  25   Al-'Owhali that he be permitted to reopen cross-examination,


   1   and I have granted that request.


   3   BY MR. COHN:

   4   Q.  Agent Gaudin, I'm going to ask you a number of questions

   5   about the interrogation, the general interrogations over the

   6   period of time that you did it, and I'm not asking you for the

   7   content, I'm asking you for other things.  And so if there is

   8   any misunderstanding or you think that the content is called

   9   for, please tell me, because that's not what I'm asking, okay?

  10   A.  I just wanted -- I'm already just a little bit confused,

  11   but I'll try to follow your instructions.

  12   Q.  I'll give you an example.  During the period of, the

  13   general period of the investigation, is it fair to say that

  14   Mr. al-'Owhali became angry from time to time?

  15            I'm not asking you what he said, I'm asking you --

  16   A.  Okay.

  17   Q.  I'm asking you, did he become angry from time to time?

  18   A.  There were a couple of times when he was angry.

  19   Q.  Very well.  Angry?

  20   A.  He became angry, yes.

  21   Q.  And he exhibited that anger by appearing angry?

  22   A.  Yes, sir.

  23   Q.  Were there times when he appeared terribly worried about

  24   his predicament?

  25   A.  I'm not sure what you mean by "terribly worried about his


   1   predicament."

   2            MR. COHN:  Will you bear with me for a second, your

   3   Honor?

   4            THE COURT:  Yes.

   5            (Pause)

   6   BY MR. COHN:

   7   Q.  Now, were there times when he was upset?

   8   A.  Along the same times that he was angry, I would say angry

   9   or upset, yes, sir.

  10   Q.  Well, I mean, so he did exhibit, from time to time, upset

  11   during this process?

  12   A.  Yes.

  13   Q.  And were there times when, as part of the investigative

  14   process, you made certain accusations about what you thought

  15   he might have done?

  16   A.  I expressed upon him things that I thought I knew, yes,

  17   sir.

  18   Q.  And did you ever show him pictures, for instance, of the

  19   bombing of the Al Ameriyah Shelter?

  20   A.  The what shelter, sir?

  21   Q.  Al Ameriyah Shelter in Lebanon?

  22   A.  No, sir, I did not.

  23   Q.  Never did?

  24   A.  No, sir.

  25   Q.  There were times when he evasive, was he not?


   1   A.  That's correct, sir.

   2   Q.  Getting back to this advice of rights that was -- you say

   3   was given to him when he -- on the 12th?

   4   A.  On the 12th, yes, sir.

   5   Q.  Did you tell him when you arrested him on the 12th that he

   6   was entitled to a lawyer?

   7            MR. BUTLER:  Objection to form.

   8   Q.  Did you tell him he had a right to remain silent?

   9            THE COURT:  I --

  10            MR. COHN:  I'm sorry, your Honor.  I'll withdraw the

  11   question.  I'll do it over again.

  12   Q.  Did you tell him he had a right to remain silent?

  13   A.  I would feel move comfortable if I had the actual form

  14   here, but I believe he did say that.

  15   Q.  Did you tell him if he was in America he would have a

  16   right to a lawyer, but since he wasn't in America, that one

  17   would not be provided?

  18   A.  That wasn't the exact wording.  As I remember it, it

  19   was --

  20   Q.  Did you tell him if he was in America, that he would have

  21   a right to a lawyer?

  22   A.  I explained that to him, yes, sir.

  23   Q.  And it was clear to you that you were not in America; is

  24   that right?

  25   A.  We were in Kenya, sir.


   1   Q.  And it was clear to you that, therefore, no lawyer could

   2   be provided to him; is that right?

   3   A.  No, that wasn't clear to me, sir.

   4   Q.  It wasn't clear to you?

   5   A.  No.

   6   Q.  You thought that if he asked for a lawyer, one would be

   7   provided for him?

   8   A.  What the form said, and what I explained to him, sir, was

   9   that because we're not in America, that I myself, as an agent

  10   of the FBI, cannot guarantee that he would be afforded one in

  11   the manner in which, if we were in the United States, he would

  12   be guaranteed an attorney.

  13   Q.  In fact, if he had asked for a lawyer, you would have had

  14   to stop questioning and leave him with the -- to whatever CID

  15   was going to do under their law, right?

  16   A.  If he had asked for a lawyer, sir, I would have had to

  17   stop interviewing him, correct.

  18   Q.  And you would have left and CID would have continued to

  19   question or not as they saw fit?

  20   A.  He was in their custody, yes, sir, whatever they decided.

  21   Q.  And in fact, you told him that, didn't you?

  22   A.  It -- he never, he never balked at what we had read to

  23   him, sir, and he agreed to talk with us from the beginning.

  24   So that conversation didn't happen.

  25   Q.  On the morning of the 12th you asked him -- you read him


   1   his rights, so to speak, in English, right?

   2   A.  On the morning of the 12th, in English, yes, sir.

   3   Q.  So he didn't know -- well, he didn't speak much English,

   4   does he?

   5   A.  The way it happened, sir --

   6   Q.  Sir, does he speak much English?

   7   A.  He speaks some broken English.

   8   Q.  Not enough to understand a complicated advice of rights,

   9   does he?

  10   A.  He said he understood at that reading, yes, sir.

  11   Q.  He said he understood?

  12   A.  Yes.  He said he couldn't read it, but if we were to read

  13   it to him, and slowly, he would stay along.  And he agreed at

  14   the end of it, and as we were reading it to him, that he

  15   understood what we were saying.

  16   Q.  He never -- but ultimately, after an hour, you decided

  17   that it was not productive to continue this in English, he

  18   needed an interpreter, is that right?

  19   A.  I felt it would be better for everybody involved if we had

  20   an interpreter.

  21   Q.  So that's when you got the interpreter and the blanket,

  22   right?

  23   A.  Got the interpreter, yes, sir.

  24   Q.  And then you say that the rights were read to him in

  25   Arabic?


   1   A.  The same form was read to him again in Arabic, yes, sir.

   2   Q.  You read it and the interpreter interpreted?

   3   A.  I believe so.

   4   Q.  You know that what she said is exactly what you said?

   5   A.  To the best of my recollection, I don't speak Arabic, but

   6   I believe, I believe she was speaking it to him, and he said

   7   that he understood it in Arabic now as we had read it to him

   8   in English.

   9   Q.  You don't know whether she said to him that, if you don't

  10   answer questions, we'll leave you with the Kenyans?

  11   A.  No, sir, I don't know that.

  12   Q.  You don't know that?

  13   A.  No, sir.

  14   Q.  And you wouldn't know that she didn't?  It's just your

  15   expectation that she didn't?

  16   A.  Based on what Mr. al-'Owhali said to me, I didn't think --

  17   I didn't think that she had derived from the form at all based

  18   on his response.

  19   Q.  You think that if she said that, he would have complained

  20   to you, as his protector?

  21   A.  I don't know what he would have said, sir.

  22   Q.  That's fair.

  23            There were times Mr. al-'Owhali, during these

  24   investigations or interrogations, became, I think you -- did

  25   you characterize his conduct as agitated?


   1   A.  Or angry, yes, sir.

   2   Q.  You did use the word "agitated" from time to time?

   3   A.  I could have.  I'm not sure.

   4   Q.  Let me --

   5            MR. COHN:  May I approach, your Honor?

   6            THE COURT:  Yes.

   7   Q.  Let me show you a document of the government, a report of

   8   yours of 8/13/98; ask you to look at the last paragraph.

   9   A.  Yes, sir.

  10   Q.  Did you use the word "agitated"?

  11   A.  The word "agitated" is used there, yes, sir.

  12   Q.  And you wrote it?

  13   A.  This particular report I did not write.  I had co-authored

  14   it, meaning I just, after the person who was responsible for

  15   writing it did write it, I agreed in context what it said.

  16   Q.  You read it?

  17   A.  I did read it.

  18   Q.  And after reading it, you signed it as authorizing it as a

  19   co-author?

  20   A.  That's right.

  21   Q.  Is it fair to say, sir, that over the period of the nine

  22   days that he was interrogated and left in isolation various

  23   times --

  24            MR. BUTLER:  Objection.

  25            THE COURT:  Sustained.


   1            MR. COHN:  May I finish the question?

   2            THE COURT:  Sustained.

   3   Q.  Over the period of the nine days of interrogations and

   4   periods when you did not see him, that he became progressively

   5   more and more agitated for more of the time?

   6   A.  I wouldn't say that.

   7   Q.  You would not?

   8   A.  No, sir.

   9            MR. COHN:  Bear with me one minute, your Honor.

  10            (Pause)

  11            MR. COHN:  I have nothing further.

  12            THE COURT:  Government redirect.

  13            MR. BUTLER:  Briefly, your Honor.


  15   BY MR. BUTLER:

  16   Q.  Agent Gaudin, Mr. Cohn asked you some questions about, on

  17   cross-examination about the interviews that took place from

  18   August 12th to August 21st.  Remember those questions?

  19   A.  Yes.

  20   Q.  And during those interviews, did you take breaks during

  21   those interviews?

  22   A.  Yes, we did.

  23   Q.  And was Mr. al-'Owhali permitted to pray during those

  24   interviews?

  25   A.  Whenever he asked to pray, he was granted the opportunity


   1   to pray, yes, sir.

   2   Q.  And was Mr. al-'Owhali given food during the course of

   3   those interviews?

   4   A.  Whenever he asked for it, he was.

   5   Q.  And did you voluntarily give him food, even if he didn't

   6   ask for it?

   7   A.  Yes.  There were times that I became hungry during this

   8   process and I would take food out for myself, whether it be a

   9   candy bar or whatever I had with me, and I didn't feel right

  10   eating it in front of anyone in the room.  I would ask them if

  11   they wanted some and I asked him if he wanted some.  Sometimes

  12   he took it, sometimes he didn't.

  13   Q.  During these interviews from August 12th on to August

  14   21st, did Mr. al-'Owhali ever complain about the treatment

  15   that he was receiving?

  16   A.  He never complained to me once about his treatment.

  17   Q.  Did he ever complain about the treatment he was receiving

  18   from the Kenyans?

  19   A.  He never once complained about his treatment at all.

  20   Q.  During this period did you ever hear anyone threaten

  21   Mr. al-'Owhali?

  22   A.  No, I did not.

  23   Q.  During the course of these interviews that took place

  24   between August 12 and August 21, was Mr. al-'Owhali ever

  25   handcuffed in your presence?


   1   A.  In my presence, I never saw him in handcuffs, no, sir.

   2   Q.  Was there ever any occasion when you helped take him from

   3   the cell to the interview room?

   4   A.  Many occasions.  I went with -- I went whatever time the

   5   interview was going to start, I went to the cell and would

   6   walk right to the interviewing room with him.

   7   Q.  While he was brought from the cell to the interview room,

   8   was he handcuffed?

   9   A.  No, he was not.

  10   Q.  Did Mr. al-'Owhali ever say anything to you about being in

  11   pain during the course of these interviews?

  12   A.  He never complained about being in pain to me, sir.

  13   Q.  And prior to the time that he received medical treatment

  14   on August 18, did he ever ask for medical treatment in your

  15   presence?

  16   A.  Not in my presence, no, he didn't.

  17   Q.  Were you there on August 18 when he received the medical

  18   treatment?

  19   A.  Yes, I was.

  20   Q.  What did they do for him?

  21   A.  They took a look at the stitches that had, that he had

  22   received when he had got treated on the 7th of August, and the

  23   doctor and the paramedic that were there decided it was

  24   probably time for them to come out.  So they removed the

  25   stitches from him -- it was right in the interview room where


   1   we were talking to him.  They removed his stitches and they

   2   applied some sort of antibiotic or some sort of ointment onto

   3   the wounds, and it was a very congenial process.

   4   Q.  I believe you testified on cross-examination that after

   5   the interview on August 12, Mr. al-'Owhali was taken to a cell

   6   not at the CID headquarters, correct?

   7   A.  That's correct, on the 12th he went to some other

   8   location.

   9   Q.  And you also testified about visiting him in his cell on

  10   August 16th, correct?

  11   A.  Yes, I did.

  12   Q.  Where was that cell?

  13   A.  On the 16th he was housed at CID headquarters in Nairobi

  14   in the same complex, same building that we were interviewing

  15   him.

  16   Q.  Approximately when was he transferred from this cell

  17   outside the facility's headquarters back to the cell in CID

  18   headquarters?

  19            MR. COHN:  Objection.  Foundation.

  20   Q.  Did there come a time when he was eventually placed in a

  21   cell in CID headquarters?

  22   A.  Yes, he was.

  23   Q.  When was he placed in the cell in CID?

  24            MR. COHN:  Objection.  How does he know?

  25            THE COURT:  If he knows.


   1   Q.  When is the first time you saw him in the cell in CID

   2   headquarters?

   3   A.  The first time I saw him physically in the cell was on

   4   Sunday, the 16th.

   5   Q.  You said that you would go down and pick him up to take

   6   him to the interrogations, correct?

   7   A.  That's correct.

   8   Q.  And do you know when -- were you ever informed when he was

   9   taken to the cell at CID headquarters?

  10   A.  Yes, I was.

  11            MR. COHN:  That's a yes or no answer.

  12   Q.  When was that?

  13            MR. COHN:  Objection.

  14            THE COURT:  Overruled.

  15   A.  I believe it was on Friday, the 14th, is when he started

  16   to stay at CID headquarters.

  17   Q.  And you testified that you also brought him some milk

  18   while he was in that cell, right?

  19   A.  Yes, I did.

  20   Q.  Where did you bring him that milk?

  21   A.  He asked for some milk.  I had saw him in there.  I saw

  22   him, he was eating, and I asked him if he was okay, if he

  23   needed anything else, and he said he would like some milk and

  24   I arranged for some milk to be brought to him.

  25   Q.  Now, there came a time when he participated in an


   1   identification parade, correct?

   2   A.  Yes, he did.

   3   Q.  And that was on August 20th, I believe you testified?

   4   A.  Thursday, the 20th.

   5   Q.  And six people viewed the identification parade, correct?

   6   A.  That's right, six people.

   7   Q.  Who chose the people who were selected to view the

   8   identification parade?

   9   A.  The Kenyan CID people chose who were going to be the

  10   persons who would view the identification lineup.

  11   Q.  Mr. Cohn showed you a photograph that was introduced as

  12   Defense Exhibit C.

  13            Could we bring up Defense Exhibit C, please.

  14            I believe you testified that this photograph was

  15   taken some time after the identification parade, correct?

  16   A.  That's correct.

  17   Q.  Did you take this photograph?

  18   A.  No, I did not.

  19   Q.  Do you know who took this photograph?

  20   A.  I don't know exactly who took it, but it would -- I

  21   believe it was a reporter from the Kenyan newspaper.

  22   Q.  When is the first time that you saw this photograph?

  23   A.  It was on Saturday, August 22.

  24   Q.  Where did you see it?

  25   A.  It was in the newspaper in Kenya.


   1   Q.  During this period between August 12 and August 21 were

   2   you ever alone with Mr. Al-'Owhali?

   3   A.  Yes, I was.

   4   Q.  When were you alone with Mr. Al-'Owhali?

   5   A.  Whenever he requested to pray, he would have to go to the

   6   bathroom and wash himself in preparing to pray, and it was

   7   something that I had never seen before so I had asked him to

   8   explain to me what he was doing.  And he did.  So whenever he

   9   needed to pray and we would leave the room together and I

  10   would go with him to the bathroom, he would show me his

  11   washing ritual and actually tell me why and what he was doing,

  12   amongst other things.

  13   Q.  And during this period that you were alone with

  14   Mr. Al-'Owhali, did he ever complain to you about the

  15   treatment he was receiving from the Kenyans?

  16   A.  No, he did not.

  17   Q.  Going ahead to August 21st, first, I believe Mr. Cohn

  18   showed you three photographs identified as Defense Exhibits I,

  19   J and K, which were the photos of you taking fingerprints and

  20   in the cell with Mr. Al-'Owhali.

  21            Why did you take those photographs, Agent Gaudin?

  22   A.  On August 20th, the day before these pictures were taken,

  23   the United States had launched cruise missiles into

  24   Afghanistan and Sudan --

  25            MR. COHN:  Objection, your Honor.


   1            THE COURT:  Overruled.

   2   A.  -- in retaliation for the attacks on the two embassies,

   3   two American embassies.  We didn't know anything about that,

   4   being in Kenya when that had happened.  We actually viewed it

   5   on the news.  Our leadership, the FBI leadership, was very

   6   worried about the large American presence overseas --

   7            MR. COHN:  Objection as to the leadership's state of

   8   mind.

   9            THE COURT:  Yes.  Sustained.

  10   Q.  Were you told anything as a result of the missile strikes

  11   about what you might be doing in Kenya?

  12   A.  I was told because of --

  13            THE COURT:  After you were told that, then what?

  14   After he was told, what did you do?

  15   Q.  What did you do after you had these conversations?

  16   A.  We were told that --

  17            THE COURT:  No, no.  What did you do after you

  18   received information?

  19            THE WITNESS:  We prepared to leave Kenya.

  20   Q.  And so why did you take the photographs on August 21?

  21   A.  As we prepared to leave Kenya, I had realized that I

  22   hadn't -- I didn't have a set of fingerprints for

  23   Mr. al-'Owhali, so I asked Kenya investigators if I could get

  24   a copy.  They explained to me that they don't fingerprint

  25   people until right before they're actually charged.  In the


   1   investigative process, they don't take the fingerprints.

   2            So I asked if it would be all right if I could take

   3   some fingerprints for him, and they said it would be okay.

   4   And it took some time to gather up whatever I could to take

   5   his fingerprints.  It wasn't very readily available over

   6   there.  So I took his fingerprints.

   7            At that time, I saw that someone had a camera and I

   8   realized, I know I took pictures of him on the 12th, but I

   9   didn't know where those pictures exactly were and I figured it

  10   would be a good idea to have a picture of him, and that's why

  11   I took the picture.  That's why the picture was taken and the

  12   fingerprints.

  13   Q.  Moving ahead to the interview that took place after you

  14   took these photographs, and without describing any of the

  15   conversation that you had with Mr. Al-'Owhali, did you show

  16   Mr. al-'Owhali anything during the course of these interviews?

  17   A.  On the?

  18   Q.  On the 21st?

  19   A.  Yes, I did.

  20   Q.  What did you show him?

  21   A.  I showed him some phone records.  I showed him some

  22   photographs of a house.

  23   Q.  What house was that?

  24            MR. COHN:  Objection.

  25            THE COURT:  Overruled.


   1   A.  43 Runda Estates, Harun's house, as I knew it.  I knew it

   2   to be Harun's house.

   3   Q.  Going back for just a moment to the interviews that took

   4   place between August 22nd and August 26th, I believe counsel

   5   for Mr. Odeh asked you some questions about what

   6   Mr. Al-'Owhali told you during those interviews.

   7            Was there anything that Mr. al-'Owhali said he would

   8   not tell you?

   9   A.  He told me he wasn't going to tell me everything.  He told

  10   me that he was in the plan -- he was not in the planning, in

  11   the preparation phase of the mission, he was only in the

  12   execution phase of the mission.  There were certain things he

  13   would tell me and there were things -- there were certain

  14   things he would not tell me.

  15            MR. BUTLER:  No further questions.

  16            THE COURT:  Anything further of this witness?

  17            MR. RICCO:  Yes, your Honor.

  18            MR. COHN:  Yes, your Honor.


  20   BY MR. COHN:

  21   Q.  Do you know what the meaning of the phrase "plausible

  22   deniability" is?

  23            MR. BUTLER:  Objection, your Honor.

  24            THE COURT:  Sustained.

  25   Q.  Well, if you wanted to create a situation that was


   1   coercive --

   2            THE COURT:  I think any question that begins with

   3   "if" is very dubious.

   4            Try it again.

   5   Q.  You were interrogating Mr. al-'Owhali for nine days; is

   6   that right?  From the 12th to the 21st, off and on?

   7   A.  Right.  Not every single day, yes, sir.

   8   Q.  And he was not always in your custody?

   9   A.  That's correct, sir.

  10   Q.  You did not ask the Kenyans what they were doing to him or

  11   saying to him during the period in which he was not in your

  12   custody?

  13   A.  No, sir, I didn't.

  14   Q.  Were you not curious?

  15   A.  Not really, sir, no.

  16   Q.  Never occurred to you to inquire as to whether or not they

  17   were threatening him and to make sure of his well-being?

  18   A.  The interviews were a team effort and when an interview

  19   would end, we would agree that we would start up again

  20   tomorrow.  So it's my understanding that there would be no

  21   other questioning of him until we were all together.

  22   Q.  You have been an agent for nine years, you said?

  23   A.  Yes, sir.

  24   Q.  There was a period in which you were in the military

  25   before that?


   1   A.  Yes, I was.

   2   Q.  How long were you in the military?

   3   A.  I was on active duty for six years.

   4   Q.  As part of your training in the military, were you taught

   5   how to resist interrogations if you were captured by the

   6   enemy?

   7   A.  I did go to a school for that training, sir.

   8   Q.  You didn't go to a school?

   9   A.  I did go to a school.

  10   Q.  You went to a school?

  11   A.  Yes, sir.

  12   Q.  So you were aware at the time that Mr. al-'Owhali was

  13   being interrogated for those nine days that there might be

  14   circumstances in which foreign nationals might use, could use

  15   tactics that would be unacceptable in the United States?

  16            MR. BUTLER:  Objection, your Honor.

  17            THE COURT:  Sustained.  Sustained.

  18   Q.  After having had that training, it never occurred to you

  19   to ask the Kenyans whether or not they were treating

  20   Mr. al-'Owhali decently?

  21            MR. BUTLER:  Objection, your Honor.

  22            THE COURT:  I'll allow that question.

  23   A.  My training in the military was for military

  24   interrogations.  In other words, if I was ever captured as an

  25   American fighting soldier by the enemy, not -- had nothing to


   1   do with law enforcement interrogation.

   2   Q.  So you were confident, were you, that the Kenyan CID

   3   people were playing by the same rules that you were playing by

   4   because of mandative law?

   5            MR. BUTLER:  Objection.

   6            THE COURT:  Sustained.

   7            MR. COHN:  I have nothing further.

   8            THE COURT:  Mr. Ricco, on behalf of defendant Odeh.


  10   BY MR. RICCO:

  11   Q.  I want to focus right in on Mr. Butler's questions about

  12   Mr. al-'Owhali not saying things.

  13   A.  Yes, sir.

  14   Q.  Okay.  Now, you asked Mr. al-'Owhali to describe to you

  15   the people who he knew were involved in the bombing, correct?

  16   A.  I don't remember exactly how the question came, sir, but I

  17   do remember us getting to a point where he told me "I'm not

  18   going ot tell you everything."  I remember that.

  19   Q.  Okay, I heard that.  Now I want to ask you about my

  20   question.

  21   A.  Yes, sir.

  22   Q.  And my question is about whether or not you asked

  23   Mr. al-'Owhali to describe to you the people that he knew was

  24   involved in the planning.

  25            Did that happen?


   1   A.  I wanted to get all that information, yes, sir.

   2   Q.  Did that happen?

   3   A.  Yes, sir, I asked him.

   4   Q.  And what he said was, he described Azzam, right?

   5   A.  Yes, he did.

   6   Q.  And he described Azzam as the person who drove the truck,

   7   detonated the bomb at the United States Embassy, isn't that

   8   right?

   9   A.  Yes, he did.

  10   Q.  He described him as being 26 years old, approximately 170

  11   centimeters tall, weighing 80 kilograms, black hair and brown

  12   eyes, isn't that right?

  13   A.  I believe that's correct, sir.

  14   Q.  He described to you Saleh, right?

  15   A.  Yes, he did.

  16   Q.  He says Saleh was an Egyptian, and that he was the planner

  17   for both the U.S. Embassy bombings in Dar es Salaam and

  18   Nairobi, isn't that right?

  19   A.  That's correct, sir.

  20            (Continued on next page)







   1   Q.  He further described Saleh as being in his 30s, about five

   2   seven, medium build with black hair and brown eyes.  Isn't

   3   that right?

   4   A.  That's true, sir.

   5   Q.  You asked him to describe the fellow Harun, right?

   6   A.  Yes, I did.

   7   Q.  An he said Harun was a light-skinned black Somali-looking

   8   man who assisted in the planning of the bombing of the United

   9   States embassy in Nairobi and is further described as being

  10   about 24 years old, isn't that correct?

  11   A.  That sounds about right, sir.

  12   Q.  He said he was about five foot five, that he was skinny

  13   with short black hair and dark eyes, isn't that right?

  14   A.  That sounds about right, sir.

  15   Q.  He told you even more.  He said Harun's house --

  16            MR. COHN:  Objection, your Honor.

  17            THE COURT:  Sustained.

  18            MR. RICCO:  Okay.

  19   Q.  Along the lines of Mr. Butler's question, he also

  20   described to you Ahmed Abdallah, isn't that correct.

  21   A.  Yes, sir.

  22   Q.  Described Abdallah also as Ahmed --

  23            MR. COHN:  Objection.

  24            THE COURT:  Mr. Ricco, would you confer for a moment

  25   with Mr. Cohn?


   1            MR. RICCO:  Yes.

   2            (Pause)

   3   Q.  He complained to you who Ahmed Abdallah was and what his

   4   role was, isn't that correct?

   5   A.  He gave me that information, yes, sir.

   6   Q.  He also described to you that Ahmed Abdallah was blonde

   7   haired?

   8   A.  Either fair hair or blonde hair, I believe so.

   9   Q.  And he gave you height and weight, isn't that correct?

  10   A.  I believe he did.

  11   Q.  He also explained to you Abdul Rachman.  He explained to

  12   you that he was a technician, isn't that correct?

  13   A.  That was the term he used, technician.

  14   Q.  And he also gave you the height and weight of this

  15   gentleman, isn't that correct?

  16   A.  I believe so, sir.

  17   Q.  He also explained to you a fellow by the name of Khalid?

  18   A.  Khalid, yes, sir.

  19   Q.  And he explained to you his height and weight and his age,

  20   isn't that correct?

  21   A.  Yes, sir.

  22   Q.  And you also showed him photographs of Azak, right?

  23   A.  That's true.

  24   Q.  Now, he didn't hold back when you showed him the

  25   photographs of Azak.  He said that's Azak in the picture,


   1   isn't that right?

   2   A.  Not that fast, but, yes, sir, he did say it was Azak.

   3   Q.  All right.  And you showed him a videotape of Harun.  He

   4   didn't hold back when you showed him the videotape of Harun.

   5   He identified Harun from the photographs, isn't that correct?

   6   A.  From the videotape, yes, sir.

   7   Q.  And when you showed him the photograph of the house he

   8   said that's the house where we put the bomb together and the

   9   house that I stayed at, isn't that right?

  10   A.  True.

  11   Q.  Was he holding back then or did he say --

  12   A.  I don't believe he was holding back then, no, sir.

  13   Q.  Now, who made the decision not to show him the photograph

  14   of Mohamed Odeh, him or you?

  15   A.  I believe I was probably part of the decision not to show

  16   him the picture of Odeh.

  17            MR. RICCO:  No further questions.

  18            THE COURT:  Anything further of this witness?

  19            MR. BUTLER:  Very briefly.


  21   BY MR. BUTLER:

  22   Q.  During the interviews -- just going back to the recross by

  23   counsel for Mr. Odeh -- during the interviews between August

  24   22nd and August 25th, did Mr. Al-'Owhali ever mention someone

  25   named Ahmed Kalfan Galani?


   1   A.  No, he did not.

   2   Q.  Did he mention someone named Mustafa Fadal?

   3   A.  No, he did not.

   4   Q.  Did he mention someone named Fahad el Islam?

   5   A.  No, he didn't.

   6   Q.  And did he mention someone mention Ahmed Sheik Sudan?

   7   A.  No, he didn't.

   8            MR. BUTLER:  No further questions.


  10   BY MR. RICCO:

  11   Q.  Did you ask him if he knew who any of those people were?

  12   A.  I didn't even know those names, sir.  I never asked.

  13            MR. RICCO:  No further questions.

  14            THE COURT:  The government may call the next witness.

  15   You may step down.

  16            (Witness excused)

  17            MR. FITZGERALD:  The government calls Charles Mwaka

  18   Mula.


  20        called as a witness by the government,

  21        having been duly sworn, testified through the interpreter,

  22        as follows:



  25   Q.  You do have a soft voice.  If you could try to keep your


   1   voice up, and if you at any time need to use the interpreter

   2   who is seated to your left, please feel free to do so.

   3            THE COURT:  Did we swear you yesterday?

   4            THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.

   5   Q.  Mr. Mwaka, if you could tell the jury what country you

   6   were born in?

   7   A.  (In English) American Embassy Nairobi Kenya.

   8   Q.  I asked you what country you were born in.

   9   A.  (Through the interpreter)  Kenya.

  10   Q.  And can you tell the jury have you ever worked as an

  11   employee at the American embassy?

  12   (Following answers in English)

  13   A.  Yes.

  14   Q.  Can you tell the jury when you began to work at the

  15   American embassy in Nairobi?

  16   A.  It was a Thursday, 28 July, 1986.

  17   Q.  It was a Thursday, July 28, 1986 when you first began to

  18   work at the embassy?

  19   A.  Yes.

  20   Q.  Then did you work at the embassy through August of 1998?

  21   A.  Yes.

  22   Q.  And while you worked at the embassy did you know a man by

  23   the name of Francis Kibe?

  24   A.  Yes, I do.

  25   Q.  And what did France Kibe do as a worker at the American


   1   embassy?

   2   A.  Was a driver of the scooter in the mail room section.

   3   Q.  You mentioned a scooter.  What did Mr. Kibe do with the

   4   scooter from the mail room section?

   5   A.  He picked.

   6   Q.  I'm sorry.  If you could use the interpreter perhaps

   7   (Through the interpreter)

   8   A.  He was delivering some letters and bring them back to the

   9   embassy.

  10   Q.  So Mr. Kibe's job was to deliver mail to and from the

  11   embassy with the scooter?

  12   A.  Yes, sir.

  13   Q.  And let me direct your attention to a particular day,

  14   August 7th of 1998.  Were you working at the embassy in

  15   Nairobi that day?

  16            (Witness consults with interpreter)

  17   A.  Yes, sir, I was working.

  18   Q.  Let me direct your attention to the period after 10

  19   o'clock in the morning.  Can you tell the jury what it was

  20   that you were doing as part of your work at the American

  21   embassy in Nairobi?

  22   A.  It was between 25 minutes to 10:30 when I was going to the

  23   submersible pump when I saw a truck coming into the embassy

  24   trying to get inside the embassy by force.

  25   Q.  Let me stop you for a moment.  You mentioned a submersible


   1   pump.  Can you tell the jury where the submersible pump was

   2   that you were going to as part of your work?

   3   A.  It was located at the left side of the embassy.

   4   Q.  What was your job at the time of August 7th?

   5   A.  I was a technician.

   6   Q.  So as a technician you were going to fix the submersible

   7   pump outside the embassy?

   8   A.  Yes.

   9   Q.  And was it in the back of the embassy or the front of the

  10   embassy that you were going?

  11   A.  At the back.

  12   Q.  And when you went outside between 10:25 and 10:30 did you

  13   see Mr. Kibe?

  14   A.  Yes, I saw his scooter.

  15   Q.  I am going to put -- where was Mr. Kibe's scooter when you

  16   saw it?

  17   A.  It was parked at the outside of the embassy.

  18   Q.  Outside the embassy.

  19            Let me put on the screen Government Exhibit 802G in

  20   evidence.

  21            I ask you to look at the TV screen to your left.  If

  22   you can describe to the jury, and perhaps we'll turn the TV,

  23   if you find the location where you saw Mr. Kibe's scooter and

  24   you can just point to it?

  25   A.  It was on this location. (Pointing)


   1            THE COURT:  He can come down.

   2            MR. FITZGERALD:  You can step down with the

   3   microphone.

   4            (Witness left stand)

   5   Q.  If you could point to the general location where you saw

   6   Mr. Kibe and his scooter?

   7   A.  It was on this location.

   8   Q.  If we could now bring up on the screen 802H in evidence

   9   which is a closeup.  If you could point to where you saw

  10   Mr. Kibe's scooter and describe the area?

  11   A.  It was on this location.

  12   Q.  And is that where Mr. Kibe generally kept his scooter?

  13   A.  Yes.

  14   Q.  And can you describe what you saw Mr. Kibe and his scooter

  15   do at the time?

  16   A.  (Witness consults with the interpreter)

  17            The scooter was going to leave from the parking lot

  18   heading to Hale Selassie.  I don't know which post office he

  19   was heading to.

  20   Q.  How would the scooter in the parking lot get out of the

  21   parking lot area?  Where would it drive to?

  22   A.  (Witness consults with interpreter)

  23            Move the scooter from this area, because this is the

  24   gate and this is a gate, but he used this gate through this

  25   barrier to get to Halie Sallasie on the other side.


   1   Q.  You mentioned the last barrier, the dark line.  Is that a

   2   drop bar?  Is that a bar that goes up and down?

   3   A.  Yes, this is a barrier.

   4   Q.  Did you see Kibe and his scooter going through the area

   5   where the bar is?

   6   A.  Last time I saw him he was waiting at the main road.

   7   Q.  What happened after Mr. Kibe and his scooter went past the

   8   drop bar toward the main road?

   9   A.  After he lifted the barrier the truck came which was

  10   somehow not the correct color, and tried to get into the

  11   embassy by force, but the guy tried to lower the barrier,

  12   guard tried to lower the barrier and in passing they broke

  13   their way and start.  The guard refused to open.

  14   Q.  Let me stop you there for a moment.  When the truck was at

  15   that area you're pointing to the bar, can you tell the jury

  16   where you were staying?

  17   A.  I was turning just a few meters from this.  I was turning

  18   15 meters behind the house guard.

  19   Q.  You say house guard.  Is that the guard house, the place

  20   where the guard, a building where the guard stands?

  21   A.  (Witness consults with interpreter)

  22            Yes, but there are two.  One was on this one and the

  23   other one on this one.

  24   Q.  And you mentioned that the passenger got out of the truck.

  25   Can you tell the jury, in Kenya which side of the truck the


   1   driver sits in and which side the passenger sits in?

   2   A.  The driver was on the right side and the passenger was on

   3   the left side.

   4   Q.  Okay.  Now, focusing on the passenger, can you tell us

   5   what the passenger did when he got out of the truck?

   6   A.  When he alighted from the truck he talked to the guard and

   7   the guard didn't know what he was saying, ignored what he was

   8   saying, and he refused to permit him.

   9   Q.  Let me stop you there.  When the passenger got out of the

  10   truck can you describe what he looked like and what, if

  11   anything, he was carrying?

  12            If it's easier you can sit down at this point if that

  13   makes it easier.

  14            (Witness resumed stand)

  15            THE COURT:  Tell him not to hold the microphone quite

  16   so close.

  17   Q.  If you can tell the jury what you remember about what the

  18   passenger looked like and what, if anything, he was carrying

  19   and try to keep your microphone just a few inches away from

  20   your face.

  21   A.  (Through the interpreter) When the passenger alighted I

  22   thought first he was an Indian, and I came to realize he was

  23   not when he went to the police station for identification.

  24            MR. COHN:  Your Honor, I can't understand.

  25   Q.  Perhaps we can use the interpreter and if you could tell


   1   the answer in Swahili to the interpreter?

   2            THE COURT:  Probably be better to put the microphone

   3   back on the stand.

   4   Q.  If you could give the answer in Swahili to the interpreter

   5   to your left and then the interpreter will put it into

   6   English.

   7   (Following answers through the interpreter)

   8   Q.  If you could tell us what the passenger looked like?

   9   A.  I thought he looked like an Indian.

  10   Q.  Okay.  Anything you recall about his appearance and what

  11   he was wearing?

  12            (Witness consults with the interpreter)

  13   (Following answers in English)

  14   A.  He was wearing a black jacket on that day, some red T

  15   shirt.

  16   Q.  You mentioned a jacket.  Did you say a black jacket?

  17   A.  Black jacket.

  18   Q.  You mentioned a T-shirt.  Can you describe the color of

  19   the T-shirt?

  20   A.  A T-shirt which was somehow red.

  21   Q.  Somehow red?

  22   A.  Yes.

  23   Q.  And you mentioned his pants.  Can you describe them?

  24   A.  And jeans, and bluejeans which was faded.

  25   Q.  Faded bluejeans?


   1   A.  Yes.

   2   Q.  Did you notice anything else about his appearance,

   3   anything he was caring?

   4   A.  Say again.

   5   Q.  Did you notice anything else about how he looked that day?

   6            (Witness consults with interpreter)

   7   A.  He was wearing a sports shoes black with some few stripes

   8   white.

   9   Q.  And was he carrying anything when you saw him?

  10   A.  The first time he arrived I saw four things which I

  11   thought they were soundproof microwaves.

  12            MR. COHN:  I'm sorry?

  13   A.  Microphones.

  14            THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Take the microphone and tell

  15   this gentleman and then tell Mr. Fitzgerald.

  16            MR. FITZGERALD:  If you could ask Mr. Mwaka Mula to

  17   tell us, he described four things, what he thought they were.

  18   He can tell you in Swahili.

  19   (Witness consults with interpreter)

  20   (Following answers through the interpreter)

  21   A.  He thought he had something like microphone, heavy set

  22   like the one they use in the airlines.

  23   Q.  Let's focus on what you described as microphones.  Can you

  24   tell the jury where it is that you've seen these things you

  25   described as the microphones before?


   1   A.  Was two on one side to another side.

   2   Q.  And are you talking about what the passenger that day?

   3            THE INTERPRETER:  Repeat.

   4   Q.  You mentioned that there were two on each side.  I'm not

   5   talking August 7th.  I'm asking him where he's seen those

   6   microphones, what he called microphones in the past?

   7   A.  He was using that kind of some kind of microphone when

   8   he's doing his duty.

   9   Q.  Okay.  Can you tell the jury how would you use the

  10   microphone, what you're calling a microphone.

  11   A.  He was using to cover himself avoiding to get more, to

  12   have a vibration when he's doing his job.

  13   Q.  Where would you put what you call the microphone?

  14   A.  Would put on his head.

  15   Q.  And when you put those things on your head what would

  16   happen?

  17   A.  I was unable to hear any voice which are in my ears.

  18   Q.  So these are things that you put on your ears to block

  19   sound?

  20   A.  Yes.

  21   Q.  And you mentioned before that you had seen them in

  22   connection with an airline.  Can you describe to the jury

  23   where you had seen them with an airline before?

  24   A.  I have seen when I go to the airport to get my visitors

  25   and I see people are wearing outside the airline.


   1   Q.  Are those the people working near the engines?

   2   A.  He have seen also at the airport.

   3   Q.  Okay.  Can you tell us what happened?  You said that

   4   you -- where did you see these items with the passenger, where

   5   on his person were they on August 7th?

   6   A.  I saw this from the passenger who was coming from the car.

   7   Q.  And where were they on his person?

   8   A.  Is behind the American embassy.

   9   Q.  But these items that you, that one would put on their head

  10   to block out sound, the things that look like them, where were

  11   they on the passenger?

  12   A.  He have two on one side and two on the other.

  13   Q.  And did you see the passenger do anything with these

  14   items?

  15   A.  I saw he threw to the guard.

  16   Q.  And what happened when the passenger threw this to the

  17   guard?

  18   A.  He threw to the guard and the guard he didn't get to the

  19   guard, and the one flew to the gate of the embassy.

  20   Q.  And when he threw these items, did the items do anything?

  21   A.  Exploded.

  22   Q.  And how many does he recall the passenger throwing of

  23   these items?

  24   A.  Was three of them.

  25   Q.  And after these three items were thrown what, if anything,


   1   did you see the passenger do?

   2   A.  He walked so fast went to Haille Selassie Avenue.

   3   Q.  When you saw the passenger walking toward Hallie Sallasie

   4   Avenue what did you do?

   5   A.  He ran away.

   6   Q.  And in which direction did you run away?

   7   A.  He ran to northern side of the embassy.

   8            THE COURT:  Who ran?

   9            THE INTERPRETER:  He ran.

  10            THE COURT:  The passenger ran?

  11            THE INTERPRETER:  After he saw the --

  12   Q.  Describe to the jury which direction the passenger ran and

  13   which direction you ran?

  14   A.  The passenger went south and he ran to north.

  15   Q.  And when you ran north -- why don't we put up again 802G

  16   in evidence.  I could just ask you to briefly step down with

  17   the microphone and just point to the direction in which you

  18   ran.

  19            (Witness left stand)

  20   Q.  Just indicate for the jury which direction you ran in?

  21   Did you run between the embassy and the generator?

  22            MR. COHN:  Your Honor, because it's hard to tell

  23   could Mr. Fitzgerald sort of repeat for the record what the

  24   witness is shown because we can't see from here?

  25            MR. FITZGERALD:  I believe indicating running between


   1   the embassy and the generator structure.

   2   Q.  And when you ran in that direction did there come a time

   3   when you encountered a fence.

   4   A.  Yes.

   5   Q.  Is that a large metal fence that surrounds the embassy?

   6   A.  Yes.

   7            MR. FITZGERALD:  Perhaps it would be easier if he can

   8   sit down again now.

   9            (Witness resumed stand)

  10   Q.  If you could tell the jury what you did when you got to

  11   the large metal fence?

  12   A.  I tried to jump but I was unable to.

  13   Q.  Were you able to get over the fence?

  14   A.  I tried to jump over the fence but I couldn't do it.

  15   Q.  So what did you do then?

  16   A.  He tried on the left side and the right side.  He couldn't

  17   do it, also.

  18   Q.  What did you try to do on the right side?

  19   A.  He was trying to use his right side to force himself

  20   through the fence.

  21   Q.  What did you do when you could not force yourself through

  22   the fence with your right side?

  23   A.  And then I tried on left side.

  24   Q.  What happened then?

  25   A.  Then I went through the fence on the other side.


   1   Q.  Did you actually physically put your body through the bars

   2   between the fence?

   3   A.  Yes.

   4   Q.  What happened after you put your body through the bars in

   5   the fence?

   6   A.  I was caught on the fence, stuck on the fence with the

   7   bar.  Then I tried again and again and then I was about to

   8   pass, able to pass through.

   9   Q.  After you passed through the fence what happened next?

  10   A.  That's the time when the bomb exploded.

  11   Q.  And what happened to you when the bomb exploded?

  12   A.  I went to Ngala.

  13   Q.  I'm sorry?

  14   A.  I went to Ngala.

  15   Q.  Ngala up country in Kenya?

  16   A.  No.

  17   Q.  If you could repeat the last answer?  You said:  I went

  18   Ngala?

  19   A.  It's a town within Nairobi.

  20   Q.  At the scene of the bombing did you receive any injuries

  21   to your hearing?

  22   A.  Yes.

  23   Q.  Now, after you left the embassy bombing scene did you come

  24   back to work the next week?

  25   A.  Yes.


   1   Q.  And had you seen anything that you recognized during the

   2   course of over the weekend before you went back to work?

   3   A.  I saw on the newspaper the person who came out from the

   4   car.

   5   Q.  You saw a picture of the person that you believed came out

   6   from the car in the newspaper?

   7   A.  Yes.

   8   Q.  Do you recall what day that was?

   9   A.  Was on Saturday the following day.

  10   Q.  And when you went back to work did there come a time when

  11   you spoke to the FBI about what happened?

  12   A.  Yes.

  13   Q.  And did you give a description of the person that you saw

  14   get out of the truck and throw the things that exploded?

  15   A.  Yes.

  16   Q.  And what do you recall the person looked like?

  17   A.  He looked like an Indian.

  18   Q.  And can you describe his build?  Was he thin or heavy?

  19   A.  Was thin.

  20   Q.  Tall or short?

  21   A.  Was medium, medium size.

  22   Q.  Do you recall how tall he was?

  23   A.  About five inches and, five foot and two inches.

  24   Q.  Do you recall what color hair he had?

  25   A.  Black.


   1   Q.  Do you recall if the person you saw on August 7th had a

   2   beard or no beard?

   3   A.  Was no beard.

   4   Q.  Glasses or no glasses?

   5   A.  No glasses.

   6   Q.  And was he wearing anything on his head?

   7   A.  No.

   8   Q.  And did the FBI agents you were speaking to prepare a

   9   sketch of the person you described?

  10   A.  Yes.

  11   Q.  And I ask you to look around the courtroom and see if you

  12   recognize today the person that you saw on August 7, 1998 get

  13   out of the truck?

  14   A.  Yes.

  15   Q.  Could you point out who it is that you recognize from

  16   August 7, 1998?

  17   A.  Over there.

  18   Q.  Okay.  If you can look at the, if you can describe where

  19   he's sitting, the person you recognize?

  20   A.  The one who is wearing a white hat.

  21   Q.  Who is he sitting next to?

  22   A.  He's between two ladies.

  23            THE COURT:  The record will indicate the witness has

  24   identified the defendant Al-'Owhali.

  25   Q.  Did there come a time when you were asked to participate


   1   in what's called an identification parade?

   2   A.  Yes.

   3   Q.  And when you went to the identification parade what were

   4   you asked to do?

   5   A.  I was told to touch the person on the left shoulder.

   6   Q.  And who were you supposed to touch on the left shoulder?

   7   A.  The person I saw him that day.

   8   Q.  And did you recognize someone that day?

   9   A.  Yes.

  10   Q.  And who was the person you saw?

  11   A.  The one who came out from the truck.

  12   Q.  And did he look any different on the day you saw him at

  13   the identification parade than the day you saw him in the area

  14   of the embassy?

  15   A.  Yes.

  16   Q.  What was different about his appearance?

  17   A.  He was wearing different clothes than the one he was

  18   wearing on August 7th, and also he have beard.

  19   Q.  Let me show you what has been marked for identification.

  20            If we could just display it, not for the jury, after

  21   we turn the TV, Government Exhibit 562 for identification.

  22            I ask you if you recognize what's on the screen to

  23   your left, the photograph in 562 to the bottom left picture.

  24   Do you recognize that picture?

  25   A.  Can you enlarge a little bit?


   1   Q.  I'm sorry?

   2   A.  Can you enlarge a little bit more?  He's not real clear to

   3   him.

   4   Q.  I'm sorry?

   5   A.  He's not real clear to him.

   6   Q.  Not real clear.  Okay.

   7            Let me show you what has been marked as Government

   8   Exhibit 563 for identification purposes only at this time.  I

   9   ask you if you recognize what's depicted in Government Exhibit

  10   563?

  11   A.  No.

  12            MR. FITZGERALD:  I have no further questions.


  14            THE COURT:  Mr. Cohn on behalf of defendant

  15   Al-'Owhali.

  16            MR. COHN:  Your Honor, could the government put up

  17   802H.

  18   BY MR. COHN:

  19   Q.  Now, sir, you were in the guard house which is on the

  20   upper center.  Is that the place made on the map sort of there

  21   is an X over it; is that right?

  22            Where is the guard house that you were at?

  23            THE COURT:  I'll permit you if you like to approach

  24   the witness and turn the screen so the jury can see it.

  25   Q.  Will you point it out again?


   1            (Witness points)

   2   Q.  The guard house behind the second car.  Were you behind

   3   the second car on the lower portion of where the cars are

   4   parked; is that right?

   5            THE COURT:  Show it to the jury.  The witness can

   6   step down.

   7            (Witness left stand)

   8            THE COURT:  Show the jury if you would where you were

   9   standing when you saw this?

  10            MR. COHN:  Indicating, your Honor, a place on the map

  11   to the right second car parked behind the three cars on the

  12   map.

  13            THE COURT:  Point again.

  14            To the left of the second car in the line of three

  15   cars closest to the words US embassy on the exhibit.

  16            MR. COHN:  Thank you.

  17   Q.  And where did you see the truck pull up, the truck with

  18   the bomb.

  19            (Witness pointing)

  20            MR. COHN:  Indicating, your Honor, to the bottom of

  21   what seems to be the dark line which denotes the drop down

  22   bar.

  23   Q.  That bar, is that right?  And there was a bar there, is

  24   that right?

  25   A.  Yes.


   1   Q.  And the truck was facing away from you; is that right?

   2   The truck with the bomb, yes.

   3   A.  Yes.

   4   Q.  Okay.  And in the back of the truck there was a cab, is

   5   that right?  It was a closed truck?

   6   A.  The back of where?

   7   Q.  The back of the truck with the bomb?

   8   A.  Yes.

   9   Q.  It was closed.  It was not an open truck.  It was closed,

  10   right?  You couldn't see through from the back to the front,

  11   is that right?

  12   (Following answers in English)

  13   A.  I could see.

  14   Q.  You could see from where you were standing you could see

  15   into the passenger cabin of the truck; is that right?  Is that

  16   what you say?

  17   A.  I could see the outside has nothing.

  18   Q.  I'm sorry?

  19   A.  I was able to see.

  20   Q.  You were able to see through the truck into the passenger

  21   cabin, is that right?

  22   A.  Yes.

  23   Q.  And you say that in Kenya the drivers are on the right and

  24   the passengers are on the left?

  25   A.  Yes.


   1   Q.  So that the passenger, whoever he was, would have been on

   2   the far side of the truck from you; is that right?

   3   A.  The passenger?

   4   Q.  The far side.  You were over here behind where these cars

   5   are standing, right?

   6   A.  Yes.

   7   Q.  And the truck was over here and the passenger's side of

   8   the truck was on the far side of the truck from you?

   9   A.  Was on the left.

  10   Q.  Was on the?

  11   A.  Left.

  12   Q.  On the left.  He was on this side?

  13   A.  Yes.

  14   Q.  The opposite side of the --

  15   A.  Yes.

  16   Q.  Which side of the road do people drive on in Kenya, the

  17   left or the right side of the road?

  18   A.  The left.

  19   Q.  So the passenger, the driver then is on the right side of

  20   the cab; is that right?

  21   A.  Yes.

  22   Q.  And the car, the truck with the bomb was pulled in from

  23   where it says -- did it pull in from this side over here?

  24   A.  Here.

  25   Q.  So the driver was on the left and it was facing you and


   1   you could see right into the cab?

   2   A.  The driver was on the right.

   3   Q.  The driver's on the right and the passenger was on the

   4   left?

   5   A.  Yes.

   6   Q.  Okay.  What is the thing denoted by the gray portion, this

   7   here?

   8            Indicating a gray square about in the center of the

   9   chart, your Honor.

  10   A.  This was a house guard.

  11   Q.  A guard house you mean?

  12   A.  Yes.

  13   Q.  The place where the guard stays while he's on duty; is

  14   that right?

  15   A.  Yes.

  16   Q.  And were there cars parked in the lot that day?  Where you

  17   were standing?

  18   A.  I was standing here.

  19   Q.  And were there cars parked as is shown on the lot that

  20   day?

  21   (Following answers through the interpreter)

  22   A.  I can't remember that.

  23            MR. COHN:  Okay.  You may resume your seat, if your

  24   Honor, please.

  25            (Witness resumed stand)


   1   Q.  Now, the government showed you a newspaper picture when

   2   you said now you couldn't make it out; is that right?  It was

   3   I think 562 for identification.

   4            Do you remember just now they showed you a picture

   5   and you said you couldn't recognize it?

   6   A.  He was not able to identify because it was not clear but

   7   he does not say that he can't identify, but he's not just

   8   clear.

   9   Q.  Well, let me understand something.  The person that you

  10   saw as the passenger in the car, in the truck with the bomb,

  11   was clean shaven; is that right?  He didn't have a beard?

  12   A.  Yes.

  13   Q.  Did he have any facial hair at all?

  14   A.  Yes.

  15   Q.  He had a moustache?

  16   A.  No.

  17   Q.  No moustache?

  18   A.  No, no moustache.

  19   Q.  Did he have a little chin beard, a vandyke?

  20   A.  No.

  21   Q.  Well, he didn't have a beard.  And maybe we're having a

  22   language problem, sir.

  23            Did he have any hair on his face except for his hair

  24   when you saw him that day?

  25   A.  No.  He didn't have it.


   1   Q.  No hair on his face?

   2   A.  No.

   3   Q.  Okay.  Now, the picture that was shown -- now you first

   4   called attention to the fact that you could recognize someone

   5   when you saw a newspaper article with a picture in it, right?

   6   A.  Yes.

   7   Q.  And you were just shown a picture, a blowup from a picture

   8   in a newspaper article, and you're not able to say whether or

   9   not that picture is the picture that you saw because you claim

  10   it's not clear.  Is that right?

  11   A.  Yes.

  12   Q.  You then said that in the ID parade the person that you

  13   identified now had a beard; is that right?

  14   A.  Yes.

  15   Q.  And that was on August 20th?

  16   A.  Was on 21st.

  17   Q.  21st.  Did he have a full beard or did he just need a

  18   shave badly?

  19            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form.

  20            MR. COHN:  I don't know a clear way to explain it to

  21   this witness, your Honor.

  22   Q.  Do you understand what I'm asking?  Did he have the

  23   appearance of someone who hadn't shaved in eight days or did

  24   he have a full beard like the Judge?

  25   A.  It was not a lot like the Judge.


   1   Q.  Well, aside from the fact that the Judge's gray, was it

   2   like the Judge?

   3            THE INTERPRETER:  Can you repeat it?

   4   Q.  I'm asking a question.  I mean was it like somebody who

   5   just hadn't shaved in eight days?

   6   A.  It was like someone who's about two weeks.

   7   Q.  Two weeks, okay.

   8            Now, you haven't seen this person since the 21st of

   9   August 1998.  Is that right?

  10   A.  Yes.

  11   Q.  And you identified Mr. Al-'Owhali sitting over there

  12   between the two ladies who has a full beard; is that right?

  13   A.  Yes.

  14   Q.  But you can't from the photograph say it was clear enough

  15   to be able to identify whether or not that was the picture

  16   that was in the newspaper that made you see the person; is

  17   that right?

  18   A.  Was just not clear.

  19   Q.  Now, you helped -- excuse me.

  20            Is that newspaper article 562 by the way?  Is that

  21   the right identification?

  22            MR. COHN:  Your Honor, I offer 562.

  23            MR. FITZGERALD:  No objection.

  24            THE COURT:  562 is received.

  25            MR. RUHNKE:  With the redaction that we'd like to


   1   discuss later on.

   2            MR. COHN:  Your Honor, yes, we're offering it for the

   3   picture, not for the contents of the article.

   4            THE COURT:  The portion of 562.

   5            MR. COHN:  That has been blown up.

   6            THE COURT:  The photograph.

   7            MR. COHN:  Yes, your Honor.

   8            THE COURT:  Not any of the text appearing on that

   9   page.

  10            (Government's Exhibit 562 received in evidence)

  11            MR. COHN:  No, your Honor.  Can we put the redacted

  12   version of 562 on the screen and publish it to the jury?.

  13   Would the government do that for us?

  14   Q.  That's 562.  Does that appear to be Mr. Al-'Owhali?  You

  15   can make the comparison if you can.

  16   A.  There is no other picture can come more clear than this?

  17   Q.  Well, I could give you -- not of that picture.  Does that

  18   appear to you to be Mr. Al-'Owhali?

  19            You can't make that out from three feet away?

  20   A.  I don't want to guess.

  21   Q.  Well, okay.  Now, did you ever see --

  22            You can take that down if you would.

  23            Did you ever see the composites -- withdrawn.  You

  24   told the government that you assisted the FBI in making a

  25   drawing of the person who you had seen; is that right?


   1   A.  Yes.

   2   Q.  And did they ever show it to you?

   3   A.  Yes.

   4            MR. COHN:  If the government would put 563 up on the

   5   screen, not for publication yet.

   6   Q.  Showing you 563 for identification, is that the picture

   7   that you saw that you helped them draw?  Do you remember?

   8   A.  I don't remember.

   9   Q.  Well in any event, your Honor, I offer it.

  10            MR. FITZGERALD:  No objection.

  11            THE COURT:  563 received.

  12            (Government's Exhibit 563 received in evidence.

  13            MR. COHN:  And may we publish it to the jury?

  14            THE COURT:  Yes.

  15   Q.  Does that appear to be a man with no facial hair who you

  16   now claim is Mr. Al-'Owhali?

  17            MR. FITZGERALD:  Object to the form.

  18            MR. COHN:  Withdrawn.

  19            THE COURT:  Sustained.

  20            MR. COHN:  Now you can take that down if you would.

  21   Thank you.

  22   A.

  23   Q.  At the time when these events happened, sir, is it fair to

  24   say that you were frightened?

  25   A.  There was nothing I was afraid for.


   1   Q.  You ran because you were not frightened?

   2   A.  Because I`assume something bad is going to happen.

   3   Q.  Okay.  So you were worried?

   4   A.  Because I been there for many years.  I never seen

   5   something like that.

   6   Q.  Well, you saw this passenger get out of the car and use

   7   something that you thought were micro phones that caused

   8   explosions.  Is that right?

   9   A.  Yes.

  10   Q.  And you immediately were concerned that something serious

  11   was about to happen, or was already happening, and you ran,

  12   right?  That's reasonable.

  13   A.  Yes.  And the car which came over here resembles other

  14   people who does work for us and it was very unusual for what

  15   was going on.

  16   Q.  So from the time you saw the passenger get out of the car

  17   until the time you started to run, how long elapsed, five

  18   seconds, ten seconds, a minute?

  19   A.  It's about three minutes after I see the guy running to

  20   Haille Selassie Street.

  21   Q.  So you say it took three minutes from the time he got out

  22   of the car until he started running to Haille Selassie Street;

  23   is that right?

  24   A.  It took about five minutes.

  25   Q.  Five minutes?


   1   A.  Yes.

   2   Q.  Let's see.  He got out of the car with the two, with the

   3   microphones on each side and he walked over to where the guard

   4   was.  Is that right?

   5   A.  Yes, he came from the car, he went straight to the guard.

   6   Q.  That was how many feet, ten feet, twenty feet, a hundred

   7   feet?

   8   A.  About three foot.

   9   Q.  About three feet.  So from the guard, from the car to the

  10   guard was three feet.

  11            And how long did that take him to walk that three

  12   feet?

  13   A.  It's only one step.

  14   Q.  One step.  And then he took this microphone and he threw

  15   it in the direction of the guard and it exploded.  Is that

  16   right?

  17   A.  Yes.

  18   Q.  And he did that, and did he have a long conversation with

  19   the guard before he did that?

  20   A.  No.

  21   Q.  So he did that immediately?

  22   A.  There's something he told the guard and the guard seemed

  23   like he refused, and that's why he throw that.

  24   Q.  That took what, like a very short conversation, right?

  25   A.  It was a short.


   1   Q.  And then he threw the thing and it exploded, right?  It

   2   proved not to be a microphone at all.

   3   A.  Yes.

   4   Q.  And then you ran?

   5   A.  And he threw other two more.

   6   Q.  Two more.  Okay.  So he threw two more and then you ran?

   7   A.  I started running when I saw the passenger start walking

   8   fast and leaving the car.

   9   Q.  Okay.  So he threw two more and then he started walking

  10   fast; is that right?

  11   A.  Yes.

  12   Q.  And then you ran?

  13   A.  Yes.

  14   Q.  And that took five minutes that you had to observe him?

  15   A.  About that time.

  16   Q.  About that time.

  17            Now, you identified this gentleman sitting between

  18   the two ladies, this fully bearded man, as the person you saw

  19   that day; is that right?

  20   A.  Yes.

  21   Q.  Let's go back to the identification parade.

  22            Do you remember before you had the identification

  23   parade did you talk to any police officers who told you what

  24   the procedure would be?

  25   A.  Yes.


   1   Q.  Did you talk to the Kenyan CID or were there American FBI

   2   agents or at least Americans who were involved in that

   3   discussion?

   4   A.  Both.

   5   Q.  Both.  And you were, do you know whether or not you were

   6   the first person of the people who were witnesses for the

   7   parade to observe?

   8   A.  Yes.

   9   Q.  When you made your identification were the other witnesses

  10   there or were they being kept somewhere else?

  11   A.  Was far from me.

  12   Q.  I'm sorry?

  13   A.  Was far from him.

  14   Q.  They were far from you?

  15   A.  Yes.

  16   Q.  Before you were asked to make the identification did one

  17   of the FBI agents or one of the Americans, excuse me, come and

  18   say something generally to the people who were assembled?

  19   A.  I would told that I have to touch the left shoulder of the

  20   person that I saw that day.

  21   Q.  And they told you that the suspect would be in the lineup,

  22   yes, in the parade, right?

  23   A.  No.

  24   Q.  They didn't tell you that.  But the agents, the American

  25   agent was there at the time you made the identification.  Is


   1   that right?

   2   A.  Was some one of them with Kenyan CID.

   3   Q.  Okay.  Now, before you came to court today, and I don't

   4   mean just immediately before, but how long have you been here

   5   waiting to testify in this country?

   6   A.  We came on Friday, last Friday.

   7   Q.  Okay.  Well, since Friday did anybody tell you where the

   8   person that you identified would be sitting in this courtroom

   9   so that you could identify him?

  10   A.  No.

  11   Q.  So it's your testimony that of the four fully bearded men

  12   who are sitting at this table, without any assistance, you

  13   picked out this person who you say is the person who was the

  14   passenger in the car.  Is that right?

  15   A.  Yes.

  16            MR. COHN:  Bear with me one second, your Honor.

  17            (Pause)

  18   Q.  Now, you testified on direct that you knew the guard who

  19   was there that day, is that right, on the day of the bombing?

  20   A.  Both two.

  21   Q.  Was he there -- was he at the parade as well as you?

  22   A.  One of them.

  23   Q.  One of the guards who was there at the day of the bombing

  24   was at the parade with you?

  25   A.  Both of them came and one of them was getting treatment.


   1   Q.  Okay.  Do you know if both observed at the parade or one

   2   observed or neither of them observed?

   3   A.  Nobody knows because everybody is going separate.

   4   Q.  Okay.  But they were there, they were physically present

   5   on the 21st the day of the parade; is that right?

   6   A.  I saw them with CID.

   7            MR. COHN:  Thank you.  I have nothing further.

   8            MR. WILFORD:  I have a couple of questions.

   9            THE COURT:  Mr. Wilford on behalf of the defendant

  10   Odeh.


  12   BY MR. WILFORD:

  13   Q.  Good afternoon, Mr. Mwaka Mula.  Is that the correct way

  14   to pronounce your name, sir?

  15   A.  (In English) Yes.

  16   Q.  Mr. Mwaka Mula, on the day that you were just talking

  17   about, August, 1998, did you see the truck turn around?

  18   (Following answers through interpreter)

  19   A.  Yes.

  20   Q.  And when was that?

  21   A.  August 7, 1998.

  22   Q.  And what sequence of events did you see the truck turn

  23   around?

  24   A.  After the passenger went, came out from the truck.

  25   Q.  Now, sir, in 1998 on the 11th of August were you


   1   interviewed by the Kenyan CID?

   2   A.  Yes.

   3   Q.  And that was an interview that was conducted solely by the

   4   Kenyan CID; is that correct?

   5   A.  With FBI.

   6   Q.  The FBI was present on the 11th?

   7   A.  Yes.  Most of them were there.

   8   Q.  So every time you met with the FBI the CD was there?

   9   A.  Yes.

  10   Q.  And when you met with both the CID and the FBI on August

  11   11th, was someone taking notes?

  12   A.  Yes.

  13   Q.  And was the CID personnel taking notes or was the FBI

  14   taking notes or both, if you remember?

  15   A.  CID.

  16   Q.  Only the CID was taking notes?

  17   A.  I can't remember if other one was taking also.

  18   Q.  Well, could you take a moment to think about it, sir?

  19   Just take a moment.

  20   A.  Both of them.

  21            MR. WILFORD:  Thank you.  I have nothing further.

  22            MR. FITZGERALD:  Very brief, Judge.



  25   Q.  Mr. Mwaka Mula, Mr. Cohn was asking you about the people


   1   who were present at the identification parade.

   2            And you talked earlier today about Mr. Francis Kibe.

   3   My question to you is whether or not Francis Kibe who was

   4   driving the scooter, whether or not he attended the

   5   identification parade?

   6   A.  He died the same day.

   7   Q.  Which day?

   8   A.  August 7th '98.

   9            MR. FITZGERALD:  Thank you.

  10            THE COURT:  All right.  The witness may step down.

  11            (Witness excused)

  12            THE COURT:  We'll take a recess until 2:15.

  13            (Luncheon recess)

  14            (Continued on next page)

  15                 A F T E R N O O N   S E S S I O N

  16                             2:15 p.m.

  17            THE COURT:  I continue to be uncomfortable about the

  18   matter of a limiting instruction with respect to statements

  19   made by Al-'Owhali subsequent to his arrest, and when I told

  20   the jury that we would address it later, I lost sight of the

  21   fact that it's a Thursday and I just don't want to go over the

  22   weekend.

  23            And it seems to me that counsel concerned about

  24   matters like Pinkerton and so on, which are really something

  25   which we may ultimately have to address but need not address


   1   now, the standard instruction given is:  "You are cautioned

   2   that the evidence of one defendant's statement to the

   3   authorities after his arrest about his own conduct may not be

   4   considered or discussed by you in any way with respect to any

   5   defendant on trial other than the defendant who made the

   6   statement."

   7            Now, I think that that is an appropriate instruction

   8   for me to give.  Is there anyone who objects to it?

   9            MR. KARAS:  Yes, Judge.

  10            THE COURT:  Yes.  Tell me what your objection is.

  11            MR. KARAS:  I think the objection would be based on

  12   what was discussed in the Second Circuit case of Williams,

  13   which I unfortunately don't have in front of me, but in that

  14   case the circuit talked about how it was appropriate to

  15   instruct the jury that the statement could be considered for,

  16   that would go to the existence and scope of the conspiracy.

  17            THE COURT:  The general rule is that such postarrest

  18   statements, including guilty pleas and plea allocutions, are

  19   considered only against the defendant making the statement

  20   with respect to all issues except the existence of a

  21   conspiracy; that an admission or confession or a plea by a

  22   co-conspirator may be considered by the jury with respect to

  23   whether a conspiracy exists, but may not be considered with

  24   respect to whether an individual defendant is or is not a

  25   member of that conspiracy.  Is that the rule that you


   1   referenced?

   2            MR. KARAS:  That is what the holding was in the

   3   Williams case.  In the Williamson case, the Supreme Court

   4   case, in the majority opinion Justice O'Connor talked about

   5   how there were maybe some statements which are so inherently

   6   incriminating, such as, "I did the bank robbery," that, when

   7   combined with other evidence, could be used against a

   8   codefendant in cases, for example, where the liability is

   9   based on a Pinkerton theory.

  10            THE COURT:  What I'm concerned about is that the jury

  11   should be told the general rule and we can deal with the

  12   refinements and the exceptions later, and I might say "subject

  13   to such exceptions as I shall state to you in my charge, you

  14   are to understand that...," and then what I have just read.

  15            Anybody have any objection to that?

  16            MR. KARAS:  No, Judge.

  17            MR. COHN:  Can you say "may" instead of "shall,"

  18   since we don't know whether it will be appropriate for you to

  19   give that instruction?

  20            THE COURT:  "Subject to such refinements as may be

  21   contained in my final instructions to you, you should

  22   understand that the evidence of one defendant's statements to

  23   the authorities after his arrest about his own conduct may not

  24   be considered or discussed by you in any way with respect to

  25   any defendant on trial other than the defendant who made the


   1   statement."

   2            MR. KARAS:  Is that where your Honor stops, or do you

   3   also say, "However, it can be offered to establish the

   4   existence of the conspiracy"?

   5            THE COURT:  No, that's where I'm going to stop.

   6            MR. KARAS:  Okay.

   7            THE COURT:  All right, anybody have an objection to

   8   that?

   9            All right.  Let's bring in the jury, and the next

  10   witness may be called.

  11            MR. BUTLER:  Your Honor, just so you know, this

  12   witness will be testifying through the interpreter.

  13            Just another reminder that the government would

  14   request that none of the witnesses, until Agent Sachtleben

  15   takes the stand, be sketched.

  16            (Jury present)

  17            DEPUTY CLERK:  Will the witness please rise.

  18            THE COURT:  Before we swear and hear from the next

  19   witness, I want to go back to and perhaps clarify some

  20   statement I made to you earlier with respect to the

  21   application of evidence that was received about statements

  22   made by Mr. al-'Owhali after his arrest to the authorities.

  23            And I believe I told you this morning that I will

  24   give you, before you begin your deliberations, a somewhat

  25   lengthy but I hope reasonably clear statement as to the rules


   1   of evidence and legal principles that you are to apply, but I

   2   want to now tell you that, subject to such refinements as may

   3   be contained in my final instructions to you, you should

   4   understand that the evidence of Mr. al-'Owhali's statements to

   5   the authorities after his arrest about his own conduct may not

   6   be considered by you or discussed by you in any way with

   7   respect to any defendant on trial other than Mr. al-'Owhali.

   8            And as I say, we will elaborate on that in our final

   9   instructions.  But for now, I thought it was important that

  10   you understand that.

  11            Government may call its next witness.

  12            MR. BUTLER:  Your Honor, the government calls

  13   Mr. Paul Suvi Wangi.


  15        called as a witness by the government,

  16        having been duly sworn, testified through

  17        the interpreter as follows:

  18            DEPUTY CLERK:  Please be seated.  Please state your

  19   full name.

  20            THE WITNESS:  Paul Suvi Wangi.

  21            DEPUTY CLERK:  Please spell the last name.

  22            THE WITNESS:  W-A-N-G-I.

  23            DEPUTY CLERK:  Thank you.


  25   BY MR. BUTLER:


   1   Q.  Mr. Wangi, where do you live, sir?

   2   A.  I live in Pondi.

   3   Q.  What country is that in?

   4   A.  Kenya.

   5   Q.  Is that located near the City of Nairobi?

   6   A.  It's in Nairobi.

   7   Q.  How are you employed, sir?

   8   A.  I was hired in 1996.

   9   Q.  What job were you hired for back in 1996?

  10   A.  I was cleaning bathrooms.

  11   Q.  And you were cleaning bathrooms where?

  12   A.  M.P. Sha.

  13   Q.  And what is M.P. Sha?

  14   A.  It's a hospital.

  15   Q.  Is M.P. Sha located in Nairobi?

  16   A.  It's in Nairobi.

  17   Q.  Do you recall when the bombing of the American Embassy

  18   occurred on August 7th, 1998?

  19   A.  Yes, I remember.

  20   Q.  Were you still working in M.P. Sha cleaning bathrooms on

  21   August 7th, 1998?

  22   A.  Yes.

  23   Q.  How many floors is the M.P. Sha Hospital?

  24   A.  Two.

  25   Q.  Where are the public restrooms located?


   1   A.  When you get to reception, you make a left and there's a

   2   bathroom there.

   3   Q.  So it's on the ground floor?

   4   A.  Ground floor.

   5   Q.  How large is the public men's room?

   6   A.  It's not small and it's not so big.

   7   Q.  Well, do you know approximately, is there any -- could you

   8   describe it any more precisely than that?

   9   A.  It's ten-by-eight.

  10   Q.  That meters?

  11   A.  Foot.

  12   Q.  Okay.  Ten-by-eight feet.  Okay, good.

  13            And if you recall, how many toilets are in the men's

  14   room?

  15   A.  Two.

  16   Q.  Now, were you at work at the M.P. Sha Hospital on the day

  17   following the bombing, August 8th, 1998?

  18   A.  Yes.

  19   Q.  Were you cleaning the public men's room on that day?

  20   A.  Yes.

  21   Q.  Could you tell the jury what happened while you were

  22   cleaning the public men's room in the M.P. Sha Hospital on

  23   August 8th, 1998?

  24   A.  The time I went there early in the morning, I cleaned the

  25   staff bathrooms and then I went to men's bathrooms.  After I


   1   went to the men's rooms, I found the bullets.

   2   Q.  Let's back up a moment.  How, are there any ledges in the

   3   men's bathroom?

   4   A.  The time I was in the men's room cleaning, there are three

   5   items was dropping down and also the keys.

   6   Q.  Okay.  You mentioned items dropping down.  Where were they

   7   dropping down from?

   8   A.  I don't know where it was coming, dropping from, but it

   9   was on top of it and --

  10   Q.  What were you doing while these items dropped down?

  11   A.  I was cleaning.

  12   Q.  And what particular area were you cleaning?

  13   A.  I was dusting the wood around the bathrooms.

  14   Q.  How were you -- what were you doing to dust the woods

  15   around the bathrooms?

  16   A.  I was dusting using a piece of cloth, and I put the mop on

  17   the floor to mop the dust was dropping on top of the wood.

  18   Q.  How high was this wood that you were dusting?

  19   A.  It's about six foot.

  20   Q.  Six foot.  While you were doing this, you said certain

  21   items dropped down; is that correct?

  22   A.  Yes.

  23   Q.  How many items dropped down?

  24   A.  Three items and a key.

  25   Q.  And what did you do with these items after they dropped


   1   down on the floor?

   2   A.  When it was dropping on the ground, I picked up and I

   3   didn't know what is that.  I almost, I want to throw it in the

   4   garbage, but I just keep on the side.  And I put, I took that

   5   stuff and I put it near to the sink where the people wash

   6   their hands and then I thought to call the security guard to

   7   come to take it.

   8   Q.  Okay.

   9            MR. BUTLER:  May I approach, your Honor?

  10            THE COURT:  Yes.

  11   Q.  Mr. Wangi, I placed before you what has been marked as

  12   Government Exhibits 558 and 559.  Do you recognize those

  13   objects?

  14   A.  Yes.

  15   Q.  Are they the items that you found in the men's room at the

  16   M.P. Sha Hospital on August 8th, 1998?

  17            Do they look similar to the items that you found on

  18   August 8th?

  19            MR. COHN:  Objection.  There is already a question on

  20   the table.

  21   A.  The one I got that day was dirty.

  22   Q.  Dirty?

  23   A.  Yes, was dirty.  So I'm having difficulty to see if that's

  24   the one.

  25   Q.  Other than the fact that the ones that you saw looked


   1   dirty, do they look similar to the items that you recovered on

   2   August 8th, 1998?

   3            MR. COHN:  Objection.

   4            THE COURT:  Overruled.

   5   A.  I'm looking at, the other one was much bigger than what I

   6   saw that day.

   7            MR. BUTLER:  No further questions, your Honor.

   8            THE COURT:  Anything further?

   9            Thank you.  You may step down.

  10            (Witness excused)

  11            MR. BUTLER:  Government calls Michael Opiyo, your

  12   Honor.

  13            MR. COHN:  Your Honor, may I speak with the

  14   government for a second?

  15            THE COURT:  Yes.


  17        called as a witness by the government,

  18        having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

  19            DEPUTY CLERK:  Please state your full name.

  20            THE WITNESS:  Michael Omusi Opiyo.

  21            DEPUTY CLERK:  Please spell your last name.

  22            THE WITNESS:  O-P-I-Y-O.

  23            DEPUTY CLERK:  Thank you.


  25   BY MR. BUTLER:


   1   Q.  Mr. Opiyo, if I could just ask you to lean forward and

   2   speak into the microphone and to try to keep your voice up.

   3            Where do you live Mr. Opiyo?

   4   A.  Come again?

   5   Q.  Where do you live?

   6   A.  Where?

   7   Q.  Where?

   8   A.  I live in Nairobi.

   9   Q.  And how are you employed?

  10   A.  Come again?

  11   Q.  What is your job?

  12   A.  Security.

  13   Q.  And where were you a security guard?

  14   A.  M.P. Sha.

  15   Q.  At M.P. Sha?

  16   A.  Yeah.

  17   Q.  M.P. Sha Hospital?

  18   A.  Yes.

  19   Q.  How long have you been a security guard at M.P. Sha

  20   Hospital?

  21   A.  Seven years.

  22   Q.  And were you working on August 8th, 1998?

  23   A.  Yes.

  24   Q.  Do you recall that that was the day after the embassy was

  25   bombed?


   1   A.  Yes.

   2   Q.  And do you recall what happened on the morning of August

   3   8th, 1998?

   4   A.  Yes.

   5   Q.  Could you please tell us what happened on the morning of

   6   August 8th, 1998.

   7   A.  What happened?

   8   Q.  Yes.

   9   A.  It was on 8th of August, 1998, and a cleaner came to me

  10   that wanted -- that he had seen something that he wanted me to

  11   identify.

  12            MR. COHN:  Objection as to what he wanted.

  13            THE COURT:  Overruled.

  14   Q.  Do you remember the name of this person?

  15   A.  Who?

  16   Q.  The cleaner, yes.  Do you remember his name?

  17   A.  The name of this person?

  18   Q.  Yes.

  19   A.  Who came to me?

  20   Q.  Yes.

  21   A.  Paul Suvi.

  22   Q.  What did you do after Mr. Suvi came to you?

  23   A.  We went to where the incident was.

  24   Q.  You went with him where?

  25   A.  Went with him to the place.


   1   Q.  Yes, what place did you go to?

   2   A.  To toilet.

   3   Q.  The public toilet?

   4   A.  Yes.

   5   Q.  And what did you do once you got to the public toilet?

   6   A.  He showed me how he found those things.  It was on top --

   7            MR. COHN:  Objection, your Honor.  This is non-verbal

   8   hearsay.

   9            MR. BUTLER:  I'm sorry.  I'll rephrase, your Honor.

  10   Q.  What did you -- what were you shown once you got into the

  11   men's room?

  12   A.  I was shown some three bullets and a bunch of keys.

  13   Q.  And did Mr. Wangi know what these items were?

  14            MR. COHN:  Objection.

  15   A.  No.

  16            THE COURT:  Overruled.

  17   Q.  What did you do once you were shown these items?

  18   A.  After identifying them, seeing it's a built, we have hired

  19   police in the hospital, so the hired police, we call them, we

  20   want them to see the bullets.  We went to the administration.

  21   After that, they went call two policemen, so they went and

  22   wrote a statement and then we left everything there.

  23   Q.  And how many bullets were there?

  24   A.  Come again?

  25   Q.  How many bullets were there that you found in the men's


   1   room?  When you went to the public toilet, how many bullets

   2   did you find?

   3   A.  Three.

   4   Q.  Three.  And how many keys?

   5   A.  Two keys.

   6            MR. BUTLER:  May I approach, your Honor?

   7            THE COURT:  Yes.

   8   Q.  I have placed before you what has been marked as

   9   Government Exhibit 558 and 559.  Do you recognize those as the

  10   items that you found in the men's room at M.P. Sha Hospital?

  11   A.  Yes, that looks to me like.

  12            MR. BUTLER:  No further questions.

  13            THE COURT:  Thank you.  You may step down.

  14            (Witness excused)

  15            MR. BUTLER:  Your Honor, the government calls Ismail

  16   Jama Ali.


  18        called as a witness by the government,

  19        having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

  20            DEPUTY CLERK:  Please be seated.

  21            Sir, are you an interpreter?

  22            THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, I'm an interpreter.

  23            THE COURT:  What language?

  24            THE INTERPRETER:  Somali.

  25            MR. BUTLER:  Mr. Ali will testify in English but may


   1   need the aid of a Somali interpreter.

   2            THE COURT:  Let's swear the interpreter.

   3            (Interpreter sworn)

   4            DEPUTY CLERK:  Please state your name.

   5            THE INTERPRETER:  My name is Ahmed Jama.

   6            MR. BUTLER:  May I proceed, your Honor?

   7            THE COURT:  Yes.


   9   BY MR. BUTLER:

  10   Q.  Mr. Ali, where are you from?

  11   A.  I'm from Kenya.

  12   Q.  And how are you employed?

  13   A.  Pardon?

  14   Q.  How are you employed?  What is your job?

  15   A.  I'm a manager.

  16   Q.  I think, Mr. Ali, if you could lean forward and speak into

  17   the microphone.

  18   A.  Okay.

  19   Q.  So everybody can hear you, and try to keep your voice up,

  20   sir.

  21   A.  Okay.

  22   Q.  Okay.  And you own a company?

  23   A.  Yes, the Dihab Shill Company.

  24   Q.  What is the name of the company that you own?

  25   A.  The Dihab Shill Company?


   1   Q.  Dihab, D-I-H-A-B, new word, S-H-I-L-L?

   2   A.  Yes.

   3   Q.  And what kind of business is Dihab Shill?

   4   A.  I have my own shop in Kenya, Nairobi, but Dihab Shill is

   5   basically in Somalia and we do money transfer.

   6   Q.  You do money transfers?

   7   A.  Yes.

   8   Q.  And just explain for the jury a little bit what a money

   9   transfer business does.

  10   A.  We receive money from especially Somali people, those

  11   wanting to send money to their people in Somalia and other

  12   countries.

  13   Q.  Are there Dihab Shill offices located throughout the

  14   world?

  15   A.  Would you say again, please?

  16   Q.  Are there Dihab Shill offices located throughout the

  17   world?

  18   A.  Yes.

  19   Q.  And to be clear, you own the one in Kenya, correct?

  20   A.  Yes.

  21   Q.  And where is your office located, what town?

  22   A.  I was in town office.

  23   Q.  Your office, the one that you own, what part of Nairobi is

  24   it in?

  25   A.  It's located in Eastleigh, Section 2.


   1   Q.  And when somebody wants to -- please just explain to the

   2   jury what happens when somebody wants to wire transfer money

   3   to a Dihab Shill customer in Eastleigh, Nairobi.  How does

   4   that work?  Just explain to the jury how that works.

   5   A.  First, when the person who wants to send the money comes

   6   to our office, he give all instructions to the receiver's

   7   name, his telephone number and his location.  Then when we

   8   receive the money, we call that person.

   9   Q.  So somebody who wants to wire transfer money to Eastleigh

  10   would go to a Dihab Shill office in another country, correct?

  11   A.  Yes.

  12   Q.  And they would give the Dihab Shill office in that other

  13   country some money, correct?

  14   A.  Yes.

  15   Q.  And they would give that office instructions on how to

  16   wire transfer the money to your office in Eastleigh?

  17   A.  Yes.

  18   Q.  And what kind of information would they provide to you in

  19   order for you to disburse that money to the persons who would

  20   come into your office in Eastleigh?

  21   A.  First, they give us the addressee name and his telephone

  22   number or his I.D.  That's all.

  23   Q.  And does your office charge any sort of commission for

  24   that wire transfer?

  25   A.  Yes, we do.


   1   Q.  How much money do you usually charge?

   2   A.  It varies the competition.  It is from 6 up to 2.  Between

   3   two up to six dollars.  Six percent, five percent, four

   4   percent, three percent, two percent.

   5   Q.  Is that two to six percent of the entire amount of money

   6   that's wire transferred?

   7   A.  Yes.

   8   Q.  Now, what kind of records do you keep at Dihab Shill

   9   Office?

  10   A.  We have ledger book, which we keep the instructions.  We

  11   have payment voucher and something like that.

  12   Q.  And sticking with the ledger for a moment, how are the

  13   ledgers maintained?  Are they maintained by date or by

  14   country?  How do you keep the ledgers at your office?

  15   A.  We keep monthly.

  16   Q.  Monthly?

  17   A.  Yes.

  18   Q.  And why don't we put up Government Exhibit 580 just for

  19   identification, please.

  20            Mr. Ali, I just ask you to look at the screen and let

  21   me know whether you recognize the page that's been marked as

  22   Government Exhibit 580-115.  Do you recognize that, sir?

  23   A.  580-0015?

  24   Q.  Yes.  The page that's on the screen, do you recognize that

  25   page?


   1   A.  Yes.

   2   Q.  What is that page?

   3   A.  It is my ledger, which is August 1998.

   4   Q.  If we could put up Government Exhibit 580-117 for

   5   identification.

   6            What is that page, Mr. Ali?

   7   A.  That page is transactions from Kuwait and Yemen.

   8   Q.  Is that another page from your ledger, from a Dihab Shill

   9   ledger?

  10   A.  Yes.

  11   Q.  Is that an accurate copy of a page from your Dihab Shill

  12   ledger?

  13   A.  Yes, it is.

  14            MR. BUTLER:  Your Honor, I would offer Government

  15   Exhibit 580-115 and 117 at this time.

  16            MR. COHN:  Objection.  I don't believe the foundation

  17   is complete.

  18            THE COURT:  Overruled.

  19            (Government Exhibits 580-115 and 580-117 received in

  20   evidence)

  21            MR. BUTLER:  If we could display it to the jury now.

  22            THE COURT:  Yes.

  23   Q.  Now, just going back to Government Exhibit 580-115, these

  24   two pages, were they in the -- are they part of the same page

  25   in your ledger, or do they appear as separate pages in your


   1   ledger?

   2   A.  I see one page only now.

   3   Q.  Yes.  Going back to the prior exhibit, the two pages that

   4   you looked at, are they in a book, or how are they maintained?

   5   Are they part of the same document?

   6   A.  Yes, they are same document, but this side is information

   7   receiving date and addressee name -- no, receiving date and

   8   addressee's name and the mark of the addressee.

   9   Q.  Sticking with the page that's on the screen, you see the

  10   word "Kuwait" written on the top of the page, correct?

  11   A.  Kuwait, yes.

  12   Q.  And then if you look a little bit further down to the

  13   right-hand side of the screen, you see the word "Yemen" there?

  14   A.  Yes.

  15   Q.  About a third of the way down on the right-hand side of

  16   the screen on that page, correct?

  17   A.  Yes.

  18   Q.  Do you maintain your records by country?  Do you break

  19   them down into the transactions by country?

  20   A.  Yes.

  21   Q.  What does that information indicate?  The country from

  22   where the wire transfer was sent?

  23   A.  Information.

  24   Q.  Yes.

  25   A.  It started from the left --


   1   Q.  We'll go through the columns in a minute, but I'm just

   2   interested in, you have "Kuwait" at the top of the page and

   3   then there's some information, and then it says "Yemen" and

   4   then there's some information below "Yemen."

   5            How do you keep these records?  Is it kept by country

   6   where the wire transfer was sent, by country where it is sent

   7   to?  What does the "Yemen" and "Kuwait" indicate?

   8   A.  I don't understand very well.

   9   Q.  Okay.

  10            THE COURT:  Maybe use the interpreter.

  11   A.  (Through the interpreter) We keep our record the way we

  12   receive the money, the country.  That's how we keep our

  13   record.

  14   Q.  So the information that appears under where it says

  15   "Yemen," that's information about a wire transfer that came

  16   from Yemen; is that correct?

  17   A.  Yes.

  18   Q.  Now, let's start with the columns and try to explain what

  19   information is in each column.  The column all the way to the

  20   left, and there's two numbers, it says 11/8 there.  What does

  21   that indicate?

  22   A.  That's August 11, 1998.  It is the date we received this

  23   message.

  24   Q.  Okay.  And the next column, there is a name.  What is that

  25   name in that column?


   1   A.  That name is the sender's name.

   2   Q.  And what name is indicated there?

   3   A.  Moxamed Kali Abu Axmed.

   4   Q.  Now, the first name is spelled M-A-X-A-M-E-D.  What does

   5   the X stand for?

   6   A.  X is H.

   7   Q.  H?

   8   A.  Yes.

   9   Q.  Is that how H is usually indicated in the Somali language?

  10   A.  Somali script.

  11   Q.  Okay.  Now there's another word that appears after the

  12   name.  What is that information?  It's in the column right

  13   after the name Moxamed Kali Abu Axmed?

  14   A.  Which is in brackets?

  15   Q.  Yes.  What does that say?

  16   A.  That means this person doesn't have any proper documents,

  17   so please see, please give him without documents.

  18   Q.  And are those -- what language is that in?  That

  19   information in the bracket, what language is that written in?

  20   A.  It's in Somali language.

  21   Q.  And what does that indicate to you on the ledger?

  22   A.  It is description of addressee.

  23   Q.  What's the literal translation of the words that are in

  24   the brackets there?

  25   A.  It means it doesn't have documents, that means passport,


   1   I.D. card, any documents.

   2   Q.  And does that mean that -- who is it that doesn't have any

   3   I.D. cards or documents?

   4   A.  It's from the sender.

   5   Q.  It's a message from the sender?

   6   A.  Yes.

   7   Q.  But who is it indicating that -- this message means who

   8   does not have I.D. documents, the sender or the person --

   9   A.  Addressee.

  10   Q.  The addressee?

  11   A.  Yes.

  12   Q.  That's the person who comes to pick up the money?

  13   A.  Yes.

  14   Q.  So that indicates to you that you can disburse the money

  15   to the addressee without that person having any identification

  16   documents, is that what that means?

  17   A.  Yes.

  18   Q.  Okay.  Going down to the next column, there's the numbers

  19   765999.  What does that mean?

  20   A.  That is receiver's telephone number.

  21   Q.  That's the receiver's telephone number?

  22   A.  Yes.

  23   Q.  And now let's go to Government Exhibit 580-117.  Again,

  24   Mr. Ali, if you look about a third of the way down the page to

  25   the right, you see the word "Yemen" again, right?  And then


   1   there's some more information two lines down under the line

   2   under the word "Yemen," right?

   3   A.  Yes.

   4   Q.  Is this a continuation of the information from the

   5   transactions from the prior page?

   6   A.  (Nods head)

   7   Q.  I'm sorry, you have to answer --

   8   A.  Yes.

   9   Q.  -- so the reporter can take it down.

  10            So the first thing we see, then, is the number 14853.

  11   What does that indicate?

  12   A.  That's the transaction number.

  13   Q.  And is that a transaction number that Dihab Shill used for

  14   the transaction?

  15   A.  No, for -- yes, it is transaction number for this person.

  16   Q.  So this is your own internal record keeping?

  17   A.  Yes.

  18   Q.  Okay.  Then the next column, there's a name there.  What

  19   name appears there?

  20   A.  Khalid Salim Bin Rashed.

  21   Q.  What's indicated in that column, where Khalid Salim Bin

  22   Rashed appears?

  23   A.  Bin Rashed, it is receiver's name.

  24   Q.  That's the person who's going to pick up the money,

  25   correct?


   1   A.  Yes, that's the person who collected the money from us.

   2   Q.  Now, next to that name is the number 60, what does that

   3   indicate?

   4   A.  That's our commission service.

   5            MR. COHN:  I'm sorry?

   6            THE COURT:  Commission.

   7   Q.  That's your commission?

   8   A.  Yes.

   9   Q.  If you go one more column, the number 1,000 appears.  What

  10   does that indicate?

  11   A.  Payment date.

  12   Q.  So you paid?

  13   A.  Same date we received this transaction.

  14   Q.  Okay.  And your commission of 60 -- now, the 1,000, do you

  15   know what denomination, was that in dollars, Kenyans

  16   shillings, what is that in?

  17   A.  It's dollars.

  18   Q.  And your commission of 60, is that $60 as well?

  19   A.  Yes, it's $60.

  20   Q.  Is that taken out of the money at the time that you give

  21   it to the addressee, or how do you get your commission?

  22   A.  We got from the sender.

  23   Q.  And the numbers that appear in the final column there,

  24   what do those numbers indicate?

  25   A.  70, it stands for the -- it is, that 70 is the money which


   1   is not collected in August 1998 of this page.

   2   Q.  Now, Mr. Ali, did you, do you recall, were you the one who

   3   actually handled this transaction?

   4   A.  No.

   5   Q.  No.  And was it one of your employees who handled this

   6   transaction?

   7   A.  Could you say again, please?

   8   Q.  Was it one of your employees who handled this particular

   9   transaction, this $1,000 wire transfer?

  10   A.  Mohamed.

  11   Q.  Your employee Mamoud handled this?

  12            THE COURT:  Translate.

  13   A.  (Through the interpreter) Well, at this transaction, this

  14   is my handwriting, but prior transaction was somebody else.

  15   Q.  And how did your handwriting --

  16            Why don't you translate this.

  17            How did handwriting come to be on this transaction?

  18   A.  Because my employee erased his name when he saw the name

  19   of the, of this person in the designation.

  20            MR. COHN:  Your Honor, could you have this done

  21   through the interpreter.

  22            THE COURT:  Yes.

  23   Q.  Mr. Ali, we're going to go through the interpreter, okay?

  24   If you don't mind.  Why don't you explain again in Somali what

  25   you just said.


   1   A.  (Through the interpreter) What he realized the person who

   2   give the money was suspicious person, then he get scared and

   3   he erased the transaction.

   4   Q.  And when did you find out that he erased the transaction,

   5   approximately when?

   6            (Witness consults with interpreter)

   7   A.  He erased it in the morning and I knew in the evening.

   8   Q.  And what did you do once you found out that he had erased

   9   the transaction?

  10   A.  I fixed the name the way it was.

  11   Q.  And how were you able to fix the transaction?  What

  12   information did you use to fix the transaction?

  13   A.  I contacted my central office and they told me the

  14   information.

  15   Q.  What records did they use to help you put this transaction

  16   back together again?

  17   A.  They used fax.

  18   Q.  And do you keep, in addition to the ledger, do you keep

  19   certain receipts of the transaction?

  20   A.  Yes.

  21   Q.  And were you able to use those receipts to recreate --

  22            MR. COHN:  Objection to the leading, your Honor.

  23            THE COURT:  Overruled.

  24   Q.  What documents did you use to help you recreate this

  25   transaction?


   1   A.  Payment voucher.

   2            MR. BUTLER:  No further questions, your Honor.

   3            Oh, I'm sorry.

   4            (Pause)

   5   BY MR. BUTLER:

   6   Q.  Mr. Ali, one quick question.  What does the word, what

   7   does the name Dihab Shill mean in English?

   8   A.  Gold melt.

   9   Q.  Gold melt.

  10            MR. BUTLER:  Okay.  Thank you.  No further questions.

  11            THE COURT:  Mr. Cohn, on behalf of defendant

  12   Al-'Owhali.

  13            MR. COHN:  Thank you, your Honor.


  15   BY MR. COHN:

  16   Q.  Now, it's your testimony that your employee tried to erase

  17   this transaction, it looks like by using White-Out, is that

  18   true?

  19            MR. COHN:  Can we do this through the interpreter,

  20   your Honor?

  21            THE COURT:  Yes.

  22            (The following testimony is through the interpreter)

  23   A.  Yes.

  24            MR. COHN:  Could we put those, either one of those

  25   documents -- let's put 117, 580-117, the enlargement, back up.


   1   Q.  When did you notice this?

   2   A.  The same day.

   3   Q.  You said that you reconstructed it by speaking -- the

   4   transaction by speaking to someone in your office?

   5   A.  The same employee told me that.

   6   Q.  He told you that?

   7   A.  Yes.

   8   Q.  And that's how you reconstructed it?

   9   A.  Well, he was scared and I realized he didn't do anything

  10   wrong, so I corrected the record.

  11            MR. COHN:  Move to strike as not responsive, your

  12   Honor.

  13            MR. BUTLER:  Objection, your Honor.

  14            THE COURT:  Overruled.  The motion to strike is

  15   denied.

  16            MR. COHN:  Your Honor, I move to strike the evidence

  17   since it was reconstructed by hearsay and not through a

  18   document which would fulfill the business record rule.

  19            MR. BUTLER:  Your Honor, opposed.  I don't think that

  20   was his testimony on direct, and if it's unclear I'll be glad

  21   to try to clear it up.

  22            THE COURT:  Why don't you pose a question.


  24   BY MR. BUTLER:

  25   Q.  Mr. Ali, when you wanted to put back the information to


   1   correct the information that was deleted, did you contact your

   2   headquarters in Somalia?

   3   A.  Yes.

   4   Q.  And did you receive certain information -- let's back up a

   5   little bit.  When a wire transfer is ordered from another

   6   office outside of Eastleigh, is certain documentation sent to

   7   the headquarters in Somalia.

   8   A.  No, they corrected the transaction over the phone.

   9   Q.  And but are any records kept by the headquarters in

  10   Somalia about the wire transfer.

  11   A.  Yes, we keep a record and they have a record of it.

  12   Q.  When you went to recreate the information in this ledger,

  13   where did you get that information from?  Did you get the

  14   information from your headquarters in Somalia?

  15            MR. COHN:  Objection.  It's not the issue.  The issue

  16   is --

  17            THE COURT:  No.  No.

  18            Where did you get the information that appears on the

  19   last line of that page?

  20            MR. COHN:  With respect, your Honor, the question

  21   should properly be "how," how did you get it, not where,

  22   "where" being confusing under the circumstances.

  23            THE COURT:  How did you get the information?

  24            THE WITNESS:  The whole thing or the last statement?

  25            THE COURT:  The last line.


   1            THE WITNESS:  I copied from my payment receipt.

   2   BY MR. BUTLER:

   3   Q.  So you used the payment receipt that you had in your

   4   office, correct?

   5   A.  Yes.

   6   Q.  And that gave you some -- that gave you the information

   7   that you were able to use to recreate the transaction?

   8   A.  Yes.

   9            MR. BUTLER:  No further questions, your Honor.

  10            MR. COHN:  May I, your Honor?

  11            THE COURT:  Yes.


  13   BY MR. COHN:

  14   Q.  Sir, did you physically see the payment receipt or did

  15   somebody tell you what was on it?

  16   A.  What transaction are you referring to?

  17   Q.  I'm referring to the transaction -- well, either

  18   transaction.  You have two transactions there.  Did you ever

  19   see this payment receipt for either one?

  20   A.  I didn't see anybody collect the transaction because I

  21   wasn't in my office at that time.

  22   Q.  Did you see the payment receipts or did somebody merely

  23   tell you what they said was on the payment receipt?

  24   A.  I saw the receipt and also it was told to me.

  25   Q.  Did you see both receipts?


   1   A.  You asking me the last transaction or the first

   2   transaction?

   3   Q.  We're going to find out.

   4            If you would put up, please, 115, 580-115.

   5            580-115 is the transaction for the person who was

   6   sending the money; is that right?

   7   A.  The first is the date and the second is the person who

   8   sending the transaction.

   9   Q.  Sending the transaction.  That's 115, the one you see

  10   there; is that right?

  11   A.  I can show you the name.

  12   Q.  Okay.  Now, that was sent from where?

  13   A.  From Yemen.

  14   Q.  From Yemen.  Where was this entry made, in Yemen or some

  15   other office?

  16   A.  He transferred the money from Yemen to Nairobi.

  17   Q.  Yes.  And where was this record 580-115 created, in your

  18   Yemen office or your Nairobi office?

  19   A.  Well, this bookkeeping is in Nairobi.

  20   Q.  Where was the receipt generated?  The receipt was

  21   generated in Yemen, right?

  22   A.  Which receipt?

  23   Q.  The receipt that was made for the transaction, a copy of

  24   which must have been given to the person in Yemen who spent

  25   the money.


   1   A.  We haven't received any receipt.  All we receive is

   2   information, and when we receive the information that's the

   3   information, we book it right here.

   4   Q.  Fine.  So when you got this from Yemen, your clerk created

   5   the record that you later erased, right -- or that he later

   6   erased, excuse me, right?

   7   A.  The way it works is we receive a transaction from the fax

   8   machine and after the fax machine, then we do the bookkeeping

   9   and we create the ledger.  And this is how it creates.

  10   Q.  All right.  And so when you recreated -- it's your

  11   testimony now that when you recreated this line, you did it

  12   from the fax machine, what came over the fax machine?

  13   A.  Usually when we receive a fax, and that's how we would

  14   receive our information.  And from the fax and we put

  15   everything in the bookkeeping.

  16   Q.  And then you throw away the fax, right?

  17   A.  We destroy the fax and the permanent thing is the

  18   bookkeeping.

  19   Q.  Right.  And you destroyed the fax in this case, for this

  20   document that's the supporting documentation for this document

  21   here 580-115?

  22            MR. BUTLER:  Objection.

  23   A.  Where are you referring to?

  24   Q.  The fax that is the backup for 580-115 no longer exists,

  25   right?


   1   A.  Every month we destroy the fax.  They're destroyed because

   2   we don't need to use them anymore because we have all the

   3   information we need.

   4   Q.  What I'm trying to find out, sir, is in recreating this

   5   document after your clerk had destroyed or defaced it, did you

   6   use the fax or did a clerk or somebody else tell you what was

   7   on the fax?

   8   A.  You're asking me when he erased it and I rewrite it?

   9   Q.  Sir, I don't mean to make this terribly complicated --

  10            THE COURT:  Well, it could be done in a much simpler

  11   fashion.

  12            May I?

  13            Whose handwriting is on the last line of that page?

  14            THE WITNESS:  That's mine.

  15            THE COURT:  That's yours.  When you wrote that, what,

  16   if anything, did you use to get the information on that last

  17   line?

  18            THE WITNESS:  We contacted our central office and

  19   that's how we got the information.

  20   BY MR. COHN:

  21   Q.  Now, what about 117, 580-117, is that the way you got the

  22   information to replace what the clerk had erased in that

  23   document, too?

  24   A.  Which line are you referring to?

  25   Q.  The line that's the last line which has the name Khalid


   1   Salim something and which is in your handwriting?

   2   A.  The last one I received from -- the payment receipt, the

   3   rest of them I received, I called my central office and that's

   4   how I get the information.

   5            THE COURT:  The last line, what, if anything, did you

   6   use to get the information that appears on the last line?

   7            THE WITNESS:  The last column?

   8            THE COURT:  The last line.

   9            THE WITNESS:  We get that information, the receipt we

  10   use when we mail the payment.

  11   BY MR. COHN:

  12   Q.  When you reconstructed what your clerk had erased on this

  13   document that you are looking at now, how did you reconstruct

  14   the information?  Did somebody tell you or did you look at a

  15   physical document?

  16   A.  I called the main office and that's how I get the

  17   information.

  18            MR. COHN:  Renew my motion to strike, your Honor.

  19            MR. BUTLER:  Your Honor, may I ask some additional

  20   questions?

  21            THE COURT:  Yes.


  23   BY MR. BUTLER:

  24   Q.  Let's start it from when you realized that the transaction

  25   had been erased, Mr. Ali.  What did you first do to try to


   1   reconstruct that information?

   2   A.  It's very important every transaction we made, we must

   3   have a record.  So when I realized he erased the transaction

   4   and there's no record, I did contact my main office and I get

   5   all the information and the transaction history from the main

   6   office.

   7   Q.  And what kind of records does your main office maintain?

   8            MR. COHN:  Objection.

   9            THE COURT:  Overruled.

  10   A.  I couldn't explain to you how they keep, how they keep the

  11   transaction, but I can tell you this.  Every transaction, they

  12   do have a record and they keep all the records, but I couldn't

  13   tell you how they do it.

  14   Q.  And did they send you any information in response to your

  15   request?

  16   A.  No, they didn't fax me anything.  They sent -- they told

  17   me over the phone.

  18   Q.  Now, the original fax that you received from Yemen, did

  19   you look at that at the time when you tried to recreate the

  20   transaction?

  21   A.  No.  No, I destroyed that fax prior to he erased the

  22   information.

  23   Q.  The fax that you received from Yemen, just to make it

  24   clear, the fax that you received from Yemen about what money,

  25   what you were supposed to pay out, when was -- when did you


   1   destroy that?

   2   A.  We don't keep the faxes.  As soon as we receive the

   3   information and we transfer that information to our ledger,

   4   it's important to us to keep the ledger.  So we didn't need

   5   the fax, so I'm not sure when we destroyed the fax.

   6   Q.  So, just to be clear, the information that you put back

   7   into the ledger, where exactly, how exactly did you obtain

   8   that information?

   9            MR. COHN:  Objection, asked and answered.

  10            THE COURT:  Overruled.  You may answer.

  11   A.  Again, I received that information from the central

  12   office, except the last line.

  13   Q.  And where did you get the information on the last line?

  14   A.  The receipt, we used the original payment.

  15   Q.  Let's talk about that receipt for a moment.  What is that

  16   receipt?

  17   A.  You mean the receipt, the last line?

  18   Q.  You said you used a receipt to put in some of the

  19   information, to put some of the information back in the

  20   ledger.  What receipt did you use?

  21   A.  The majority of the information I received from the main

  22   office, except the last line.

  23   Q.  And you made reference to a receipt.  What receipt are you

  24   talking about?

  25   A.  The payment voucher.


   1   Q.  Okay.  And when is that payment voucher filled out, at

   2   what point in the transaction?

   3   A.  The rest of the ledger, prior to releasing the

   4   transaction, but the last line and the voucher, after the

   5   person received the payment.

   6   Q.  So the payment voucher is filled out at the time that the

   7   person receives the payment; is that correct?

   8   A.  Yes, that's when the person signs.

   9   Q.  And the person that picks up the money actually signs the

  10   payment voucher?

  11   A.  Yes.

  12   Q.  And what other information is contained in the payment

  13   voucher?

  14   A.  First, the name of the person; second, the dollar amount

  15   or the total amount, if it's in American; and his signature or

  16   her signature.

  17   Q.  And did you look at that payment voucher at the time that

  18   you filled in this information that appears in Government

  19   Exhibit 580-117, I believe it is?

  20   A.  I just used the information on the last line.

  21            MR. BUTLER:  No further questions.

  22            MR. COHN:  Before I cross-examine on that last issue,

  23   your Honor.

  24            THE COURT:  Yes.

  25            MR. COHN:  As to 115, 580-115, I renew my motion to


   1   strike it.  And as to 580-117, for the moment I limit my

   2   motion to strike to the first two entries.

   3            THE COURT:  The fist two entries?

   4            MR. COHN:  Yes.

   5            THE COURT:  You are referring to 153-74 and 123478?

   6            MR. COHN:  Yes.

   7            THE COURT:  Any objection with respect to those first

   8   two entries?

   9            MR. BUTLER:  Yes, your Honor.  I think that this --

  10   yes.

  11            THE COURT:  Excuse me.

  12            MR. BUTLER:  Yes, we do oppose that, yes.

  13            THE COURT:  Are the first two entries alleged to have

  14   any relationship to this transaction?

  15            MR. BUTLER:  No, your Honor.

  16            THE COURT:  Motion is granted as to the first two

  17   items, that is --

  18            MR. COHN:  What about 580-115, which I object to in

  19   its entirety.

  20            THE COURT:  Overruled.

  21            MR. COHN:  That's the one, your Honor --

  22            THE COURT:  I understand.  Overruled.

  23            MR. COHN:  All right.  Then I just have one more

  24   question.



   1   BY MR. COHN:

   2   Q.  You got the payment voucher?

   3   A.  I don't have it right now.  It's in Nairobi.

   4   Q.  It's in Nairobi.  Did the government or any police agent

   5   come and ask you for it so they could compare some signatures

   6   on it or something?

   7   A.  You mean if they asking me to show them?

   8   Q.  Yes, did they say can we have the payment voucher?

   9   A.  No.

  10            MR. COHN:  Nothing further.

  11            THE COURT:  Anything further?

  12            MR. BUTLER:  No, your Honor.

  13            MR. WILFORD:  Your Honor?

  14            THE COURT:  Sure.

  15            Mr. Wilford on behalf of defendant Odeh.


  17   BY MR. WILFORD:

  18   Q.  Good afternoon, Mr. Ali.

  19            Mr. Ali, I just want to ask you a couple of

  20   questions.  The day after the bombing, August 8th, there was

  21   newspaper coverage concerning the bombing; isn't that correct?

  22   A.  Yes.

  23   Q.  There was coverage in the Daily Nation; isn't that

  24   correct?

  25   A.  The day after the explosion, the bombing?


   1   Q.  August 8th.

   2   A.  I don't remember.

   3   Q.  But immediately after, if not the day after, immediately

   4   in close proximity to the day of the bombing, there was media

   5   coverage about it; isn't that correct?

   6   A.  I believe there was media coverage, but I don't remember.

   7   Q.  Isn't it a fact that there were pictures of people in the

   8   newspaper?

   9            MR. COHN:  Objection, your Honor, beyond the scope

  10   and irrelevant.

  11            THE COURT:  Sustained.

  12            MR. WILFORD:  Okay, I'll move on.

  13   Q.  Isn't it a fact, sir, that you were advised --

  14   withdrawn -- that you received a telephone call from a person

  15   who identified themselves as a CID investigator?

  16   A.  Yes.

  17   Q.  Did that person give you a name, sir?

  18   A.  Yes.

  19   Q.  What was the name of the person?

  20   A.  Peter Wangi.

  21   Q.  I'm sorry?

  22   A.  Peter Wangi.

  23   Q.  And that person asked you for certain information; isn't

  24   that correct?

  25   A.  Yes.


   1   Q.  And he told you that he was going to come pick up certain

   2   information from you; isn't that correct?

   3   A.  No, he asked me if that person collected any money from

   4   you.  Also, he asked me the name of the person who sent the

   5   money.

   6   Q.  And he told you that he was going to come by and speak

   7   with you personally, isn't that a fact?

   8   A.  No, he didn't say that.

   9   Q.  Well, he didn't tell you that he was going to come by

  10   shortly after the call to pick up the ledger, but he never

  11   came by?

  12   A.  He told me, he asked me that the person who collected the

  13   money, the name, and the sender, and also he asked me the

  14   person who sent the money, his address.  And I asked him, I

  15   told him that I don't have --

  16            MR. COHN:  Objection as to what he said.

  17            THE COURT:  Yes.  Objection as to what he told --

  18            MR. COHN:  Yes.

  19            THE COURT:  No objection to what the other person

  20   said to him, but an objection to what he told him?

  21            MR. COHN:  Yes, a statement out of court asserted for

  22   its truth.

  23            THE COURT:  What he told the other person is asserted

  24   for the truth?

  25            MR. COHN:  I don't know.  It sounds like it.


   1            THE COURT:  Overruled.

   2   Q.  Did you finish your answer, sir?

   3   A.  I've been interrupted.  Can you repeat it?

   4            MR. WILFORD:  I'm sorry, your Honor.  Can we have the

   5   question read back?  I don't want to get off track.

   6            (Record read)

   7   A.  No, he didn't say that.

   8   Q.  Did you expect him to come by?

   9   A.  No.

  10   Q.  You never thought he was coming by?

  11   A.  I don't remember, but I don't think he said that.

  12   Q.  Did you think that he was going to come by based on your

  13   conversation with this person from the Kenyan CID?

  14   A.  He didn't tell me he's coming, but he told me that if you

  15   know the person who received the money and the name of the

  16   person who sent the money.

  17   Q.  I understand that, but based on your conversation, isn't

  18   it a fact that you thought the person was coming by to pick up

  19   the ledger?

  20   A.  No, because he didn't tell me that.

  21   Q.  Sir, did you have a conversation with FBI agents on June

  22   16, 1998 -- I'm sorry, 1999?

  23   A.  Somebody who worked for the FBI?

  24   Q.  For American agents from the Federal Bureau of

  25   Investigation.


   1   A.  No.

   2   Q.  That didn't happen?

   3   A.  The only FBI I remember was a female and it was this year.

   4   Q.  No one spoke to you in 1999, that's your testimony?

   5   A.  Yes, it was the Kenyan CID police and also it was a female

   6   agent from the United States.

   7   Q.  And that was in 1999 as well as this year; isn't that

   8   correct?

   9   A.  I believe it was 1999.

  10   Q.  And it was June 16 of 1999.

  11            May I approach the witness, your Honor?

  12            THE COURT:  Yes.

  13            MR. WILFORD:  May I just stand here and point

  14   something out to him, please?

  15            THE COURT:  Yes.

  16   Q.  I'm just asking you, do you remember being interviewed?

  17   A.  I don't remember.

  18            MR. WILFORD:  Your Honor, I would ask the Government

  19   if they would concur on August 16, 1999 --

  20            THE COURT:  Don't ask for a stipulation in open court

  21   before the jury.

  22            MR. WILFORD:  Very well.

  23   Q.  Sir, isn't it a fact that when you spoke with the FBI on

  24   June 16, 1999, you told them that you had a conversation with

  25   someone from the Kenyan CID and that based on that


   1   conversation you expected them to come by and pick up the

   2   ledger?

   3   A.  No.

   4   Q.  No, it never happened or no, you don't remember?

   5   A.  1999, the only FBI agent, she was a female.  I don't

   6   remember I meet a male.

   7   Q.  I didn't ask you if it was a male or female.  I'm asking

   8   you if you had this conversation with an agent from the FBI.

   9   A.  That was -- are you asking me was it telephone or was a

  10   personal interview?

  11   Q.  It was a personal interview with the FBI and Kenyan secret

  12   police where you told them that someone had called you from

  13   the CID; isn't that correct?

  14   A.  I don't remember and I don't think it happened.

  15   Q.  Okay.  And did the person from CID, when you spoke to

  16   them, did they give you a cellular telephone number to call?

  17   A.  The person who was the secret police?

  18   Q.  Yes.

  19   A.  The person who called me from the secret police?

  20   Q.  Yes.  The person's name you gave us earlier in this

  21   examination?

  22   A.  The person who said he was Peter Morgan?

  23   Q.  Yes.

  24   A.  Yes, he gave me a telephone number.

  25            MR. WILFORD:  Thank you.  I have nothing further.


   1            THE COURT:  Anything further?

   2            MR. BUTLER:  Nothing further.

   3            THE COURT:  Thank you.  You may step down.

   4            (Witness excused)

   5            THE COURT:  What's the next order of business?

   6            MR. BUTLER:  We have another brief witness.  We can

   7   take our break now.  That's fine.

   8            THE COURT:  More than five or ten minutes?

   9            MR. BUTLER:  No, your Honor, probably about five or

  10   ten minutes.

  11            THE COURT:  Call your next witness.

  12            MR. BUTLER:  Government calls Justus Mutisya.


  14        called as a witness by the government,

  15        having been duly sworn, testified through

  16        the interpreter as follows:

  17            DEPUTY CLERK:  Please state your full name.

  18            THE WITNESS:  Justus Mutisya.

  19            DEPUTY CLERK:  Spell your last name.

  20            THE WITNESS:  J-U-S-T-U-S M-U-T-I-S-Y-A.

  21            DEPUTY CLERK:  Thank you.

  22            MR. BUTLER:  Your Honor, I apologize, but before I

  23   begin questioning this witness, I just want to read one very

  24   brief stipulation into the record.

  25            THE COURT:  You may.


   1            MR. BUTLER:  "It is hereby stipulated and agreed by

   2   and between the United States of America, by Mary Jo White,

   3   United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York,

   4   Patrick J. Fitzgerald, Kenneth M. Karas, and Paul W. Butler,

   5   assistant U.S. attorneys, of counsel, and defendants Wadih El

   6   Hage, Mohamed Sadeek Odeh, Mohamed Rashed Daoud al-'Owhali and

   7   Khalfan Khamis Mohamed, by and with consent of their

   8   undersigned attorneys as follows:

   9            "1.  If called as witnesses, United States Government

  10   investigators would testify that between August 10, 1998 and

  11   August 24, 1998, they found the items listed below in the

  12   vicinity of the United States Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya, as

  13   indicated on the tags attached to each item.  Each of these

  14   items was later photographed by FBI personnel and each

  15   photograph is a fair and accurate depiction of each item.  The

  16   list of seized items and the corresponding photograph is as

  17   follows."

  18            And there's a long list.  I'll just read two of them

  19   for now, your Honor.

  20            THE COURT:  Yes.

  21            MR. BUTLER:  That is the --

  22            THE COURT:  Is there an exhibit number to that

  23   stipulation?

  24            MR. BUTLER:  The stipulation is Exhibit No. 47, your

  25   Honor, and the two items I would like to read at this time are


   1   FBI No. Q266, exhibit number of seized item is 822, and the

   2   exhibit number of the photograph of that item is 822-P; and

   3   the FBI number of the seized item is Q267, the exhibit number

   4   of the seized item is Exhibit No. 823 and the photograph is

   5   823-P.

   6            And the stipulation goes on to read that:  "If called

   7   to testify, a United States Government investigator would

   8   testify" -- I'm sorry, we don't need that part -- that (3)

   9   "FBI officials transported these items from Nairobi, Kenya to

  10   Washington, D.C via airplane and brought them to the forensic

  11   laboratory in FBI headquarters in Washington D.C.

  12            "It is further stipulated and agreed that this

  13   stipulation with the FBI numbers redacted may be received in

  14   evidence as a government exhibit at trial."

  15            THE COURT:  Government Exhibit 47 is received as

  16   redacted.

  17            MR. BUTLER:  Thank you, your Honor.

  18            (Government Exhibits 47, 822, 822-P, 823 and 823-P

  19   received in evidence)

  20   BY MR. BUTLER:

  21   Q.  Mr. Mutisya, where are you from, sir?

  22   A.  Kenya.

  23   Q.  And where are you employed?

  24   A.  Kenya Railways.

  25   Q.  How long have you been employed at the Kenya Railways?


   1   A.  Since 1982.

   2   Q.  And were you working at the Kenya Railways on August 7,

   3   1998?

   4   A.  Yes.

   5            MR. BUTLER:  I would like to publish what has been

   6   previously admitted into evidence as Government Exhibit 805F.

   7            Your Honor, may I approach?

   8            THE COURT:  Yes.

   9   Q.  Mr. Mutisya, I would ask you to just come down and point

  10   to the jury, if you can see it, where the railway yard is

  11   located on this photograph.

  12            MR. COHN:  Your Honor, if you would ask the witness

  13   to step a little to his left, we might be able to see better.

  14            Thank you, your Honor.

  15   Q.  Would you point to the general area of the railway yard

  16   where you were working on August 7, 1998?

  17   A.  (witness complies)

  18   Q.  You may resume the witness stand, Mr. Mutisya.

  19            That's located behind those railroad tracks depicted

  20   in Government Exhibit 805F, correct?

  21   A.  Yes.

  22   Q.  And about how far is the railway yard where you were

  23   working from the American Embassy?

  24   A.  It's about one and a half kilometers.

  25   Q.  Could you tell the jury what you were doing around 10:30


   1   on August 7, 1998?

   2   A.  I was doing forklift around the railroad.

   3   Q.  What happened while you were doing forklifting around the

   4   railroad?

   5   A.  I heard a small loud vibration and then I heard a big loud

   6   sound.

   7   Q.  And what did that loud sound, what did it sound like?

   8   A.  It was shaking.

   9   Q.  What happened after you heard this shaking sound?

  10   A.  I saw the piece of iron flying through the top of the

  11   house and it came and landed near to me.  It was a red iron.

  12   Q.  Please describe as best you can what else you can describe

  13   about this piece of metal.

  14   A.  After that piece landed near to us, we thought that a

  15   boiler exploded, the railroad boiler exploded in our area and

  16   we thought that our people died.

  17   Q.  Mr. Mutisya, sticking with what the piece looked like,

  18   what did the piece of metal look like once it landed?

  19   A.  It was a big piece and a round, like a round piece.

  20   Q.  And how far away from you did it land?

  21   A.  It's about five meters.

  22            MR. BUTLER:  May I approach, your Honor?

  23            THE COURT:  Yes.

  24   Q.  I show you what has been admitted now into evidence as

  25   Government Exhibit 822.  Do you recognize Government Exhibit


   1   822?

   2   A.  Yes.

   3   Q.  What is Government Exhibit 822?  Is that the piece of

   4   metal that --

   5   A.  Yes.

   6   Q.  -- landed about five meters from you?

   7   A.  Yes, where I was.

   8   Q.  I'd like to show you what's been -- can we actually put up

   9   just for identification Government Exhibit 810H.

  10            Do you recognize the photograph in Government Exhibit

  11   810H, Mr. Mutisya?

  12   A.  Yes.

  13   Q.  And what is depicted in Government Exhibit 810H?

  14   A.  I saw myself there.

  15   Q.  And what area is depicted in Government Exhibit 810H?

  16   A.  Workshop area.

  17   Q.  And where is that in relation to where this piece of metal

  18   landed?

  19   A.  Where we are right now, it was just a little behind where

  20   this piece had landed.

  21            MR. BUTLER:  I would move Government Exhibit 810H

  22   into evidence, your Honor.

  23            MR. COHN:  No objection.

  24            THE COURT:  Received.

  25            (Government Exhibit 810H received in evidence)


   1            MR. BUTLER:  Publish it to the jury?

   2            THE COURT:  Yes.

   3   Q.  Mr. Mutisya, this piece of metal, did it land around this

   4   area depicted in this photograph?

   5   A.  Yes.

   6   Q.  If we could turn the screen toward the jury and you can

   7   show them.

   8   A.  It landed near to this switch and then it fell on this

   9   tunnel.

  10   Q.  You may resume the witness stand, Mr. Mutisya.

  11            After this piece landed, what did you do with it, if

  12   anything?

  13   A.  After it landed, we didn't touch it at all, that piece.  A

  14   lot of people came.

  15   Q.  And when did you see it again?

  16   A.  After 12 o'clock that day that told us to go home.  We was

  17   told to go home until Monday.  That's the day I saw that

  18   piece.  The piece was there and nobody was allowed to touch it

  19   until the Americans came to take it.

  20            MR. BUTLER:  No further questions.

  21            THE COURT:  Anything?

  22            All right.  You may step down and we'll take a

  23   recess.

  24            (Recess)

  25            (Jury present)


   1            (Pause awaiting the arrival of counsel for Defendant

   2   El Hage.)

   3            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, one thing I could do is just

   4   read the stipulation that's already in evidence.

   5            THE COURT:  I think we better wait.  One thing I can

   6   do is wish you have a happy good weekend and to remind you

   7   again not to read, watch, listen to anything about this case

   8   in the media.  I'm sure you get tired of hearing my saying

   9   that.

  10            (Mr. Schmidt and Mr. Dratel enter the courtroom)

  11            All right.  I'm sorry, Mr. Schmidt and Mr. Dratel, I

  12   hadn't realized that you were not in the courtroom when we

  13   brought in the jury, but we've awaited your arrival and the

  14   government may call it's next witness.

  15            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, the government calls Donald

  16   Sachtleben.

  17            Your Honor, what I would like to do before we do that

  18   is just read in the stipulation --

  19            THE COURT:  Very well.

  20            MR. KARAS:  -- the rest of these exhibits, that is,

  21   the stipulation that's been previously entered as Government

  22   Exhibit 47.  And earlier Mr. Butler identified Government

  23   Exhibits 822 and 823 and the corresponding photograph

  24   exhibits.  The rest of the exhibits are 838, 815, 816, 817,

  25   and it's going to be 818 through 837 and 817P through 837P.


   1   These are the exhibits that were found in the vicinity of the

   2   embassy as indicated on the tags.

   3            THE COURT:  Very well.

   4            MR. KARAS:  Thank you, your Honor.

   5            (Government Exhibits 838, 815 through 837 and 817P

   6   through 837P received in evidence)


   8        called as a witness by the government,

   9        having been duly sworn, testified as follows:


  11   BY MR. KARAS:

  12   Q.  Good afternoon.

  13   A.  Hello.

  14   Q.  How are you employed?

  15   A.  I'm a supervisory special agent with the FBI.

  16   Q.  How long have you been with the FBI?

  17   A.  Just over 17 years.

  18   Q.  What is your current assignments?

  19   A.  I'm currently assigned to the FBI headquarters in the

  20   laboratory division, specifically, the explosives unit.

  21   Q.  Can you tell us a little bit about your educational

  22   background?

  23   A.  I have a bachelor's degree from Northwestern University

  24   and a law degree from DePaul University.

  25   Q.  Before you worked at FBI headquarters, where were you


   1   assigned?

   2   A.  My office of assignment before FBI headquarters was the

   3   San Francisco field office for the FBI.

   4   Q.  You mentioned you're currently assigned to the explosives

   5   unit?

   6   A.  That's correct.

   7   Q.  Can you tell us the first time you received any training

   8   in the explosives field?

   9   A.  Probably the first training I had was in September of 1986

  10   when I graduated from the FBI's post-blast investigators

  11   school.

  12   Q.  Can you tell us about some of the other explosives

  13   training you have received?

  14   A.  In 1990, I attended and graduated from the FBI Hazardous

  15   Devices School.  That's the school in Huntsville, Alabama that

  16   trains all civilian bomb technicians in the United States.

  17   Q.  Have you attended training in military installations?

  18   A.  Yes, I have.  In 1997, I attended the United States Navy's

  19   course on demolition at the Lackland Air Force Base.

  20   Q.  Have you taken any courses in pyrotechnics?

  21   A.  Yes.  I took a one-week seminar from Washington College on

  22   the pyrotechnics -- excuse me, on the chemistry of

  23   pyrotechnics and explosives.

  24   Q.  Have you visited the manufacturing facilities of

  25   explosives?


   1   A.  Yes, I have.  I have been to manufacturing facilities for

   2   both explosives, propellants and explosive detonators.

   3   Q.  And can you summarize for us what other conferences and

   4   seminars you have attended on explosives?

   5   A.  I have given quite a few lectures to international

   6   symposiums on bombing crime scenes.  I have attended other

   7   courses.  For example, the United Kingdom course on the study

   8   of post-blast investigation and the Australian post-blast

   9   investigators school.

  10   Q.  Is there an annual certification process in the FBI for

  11   your position?

  12   A.  Yes.  Within my field, that is, bomb technicians as well

  13   as forensic examiners, we're certified every year in the safe

  14   handling of explosives and in the rendering safe of explosive

  15   devices.

  16   Q.  And do you belong to any professional associations?

  17   A.  Yes, I do.  I'm a member of the International Association

  18   of Bomb Technicians and Investigators as well as the

  19   International Society of Explosive Engineers.

  20   Q.  Including training courses, how many trial scenes have you

  21   personally investigated?

  22   A.  I've probably been to over 150 bombing crime scenes.

  23   Q.  Specific to bombing crime scenes, can you tell us about

  24   some of the areas or some of the scenes where you were a team

  25   leader?


   1   A.  I was a team leader here in New York at the World Trade

   2   Center bombing scene in 1993.  I was team leader at Oklahoma

   3   City in 1995 for the bombing of the Federal Building there.

   4   Since then, I have served several other bombing incidents,

   5   including the Unibomb search in Montana.

   6   Q.  And in the course of your work with the explosives unit,

   7   have you observed explosions being detonated?

   8   A.  Yes, I have.  Routinely in my unit we do training, that

   9   is, we go out to a demolition range.  We conduct training

  10   about explosives and we examine the results afterwards.

  11   Q.  Can you tell us, what is an explosive?

  12   A.  Okay.  Well, an explosion is really just very simply a

  13   conversion of some solid material into a gaseous state,

  14   generally through a burning process.

  15   Q.  And are you familiar with the term "blow explosive"?

  16   A.  Blow explosives, yes, I am.

  17   Q.  What is that?

  18   A.  Blow explosives is commonly you think of as propellants

  19   and like gunpowder.  It's material that burns and when it

  20   burns, it gives off heat, gas, light; and if properly

  21   confined, it can actually create fragmentation, that is, break

  22   things apart.

  23   Q.  How about the term "high explosives"?

  24   A.  I'm familiar with that, yes.

  25   Q.  What is that?


   1   A.  High explosives, we distinguish high explosives from low

   2   explosives largely by the burning rate, that is, a high

   3   explosive material burns like a propellant, only it does so

   4   very rapidly.  If it's properly ignitiated, which just simply

   5   means if you get it going, start the burning process properly,

   6   you can achieve what's known as detonation.

   7            Detonation is nearly instantaneous conversion of a

   8   solid material into a gaseous state.


  10            (Continued on next page)

















   1   Q.  What are the difference in facts between low explosives

   2   and high explosives?

   3   A.  Typically with low explosives we see a large amount of

   4   smoke and heat, and if you can confine the material, let's say

   5   inside of a pipe, you can actually get the pipe to rupture

   6   because of all that gas that's being produced just breaks the

   7   pipe apart.

   8            High explosives have a much more violent reaction,

   9   typically with high explosives we experience temperatures over

  10   five thousand degrees.  There is a an intense amount of

  11   explosive effect, that is, the shock wave that comes off of

  12   this conversion from the solid to a gas.  There is a very loud

  13   noise, and there is certainly, if things are very close to the

  14   explosives they can be thrown out at a very high rate of

  15   speed, several thousands of miles and hour.

  16   Q.  Can you tell us during the course of your experience

  17   investigating crime scenes what are some of the trademark

  18   traits of the damage caused by high explosives?

  19   A.  High explosives we tend to find that let's say metal,

  20   metal that's been exposed to high explosives can be twisted,

  21   torn, can be burned.  I talked about that very high

  22   temperature.  The heat from an explosion will actually melt

  23   metal or concrete or glass.  The shock wave that's produced by

  24   high explosives will actually impact in the metal.  It will

  25   cause pits or craters, sort of think like the surface of the


   1   moon or the Grand Canyon as the great big crater where you see

   2   that in the surface of metal or concrete or some other hard

   3   objects.

   4   Q.  What are the some of the more common types of high

   5   explosives?

   6   A.  High explosives quite a few.  Nitroglycerine is one that

   7   probably a lot of people are familiar with that's used to

   8   manufacture dynamite.  TNT is a very common high explosive

   9   that the military uses.  There is material called RDX, which

  10   is one of the components of plastic explosives, which are

  11   again typically high explosives.

  12   Q.  Now, Agent Sachtleben, did there come a time that you were

  13   dispatched to Nairobi Kenya in connection with an incident at

  14   the American embassy?

  15   A.  Yes, in on August 7th of 1998 I was called by my

  16   supervisors and told to take a flight that was leaving that

  17   day for Nairobi.

  18   Q.  When did you arrive in Nairobi?

  19   A.  I got there probably about 2:30 in the morning on Sunday,

  20   August 9th.

  21   Q.  And what particular role did you serve upon your arrival

  22   in Nairobi?

  23   A.  My job there was to serve as the chief forensic adviser.

  24   That is I was to assist the senior investigators at the scene

  25   in helping to develop a plan for the collection of evidence at


   1   the scene, and then to actual process that evidence.

   2   Q.  And what was your goal in setting up that plan for

   3   evidence recovery at the screen?  What were you looking to

   4   find?

   5   A.  Well, at any crime scene the goal is to is to find any

   6   evidence of what caused the event.  In the case of the

   7   explosion in Nairobi, it was obvious to me that there had been

   8   a large quantity of explosives used.  So I was looking for a

   9   very likely what I was going to find is a delivery vehicle.

  10   In order to get that much explosives to the scene something

  11   has to carry it there.

  12   Q.  Now, when you arrived in Nairobi did you walk around the

  13   neighborhood surrounding the American embassy?

  14   A.  Yes, I did.

  15            MR. KARAS:  If we could display Government Exhibit

  16   802E which is already in evidence, please.

  17   Q.  Now, Agent Sachtleben, did you physically walk around that

  18   area that's depicted on 802E?

  19   A.  Yes, I did.

  20   Q.  Did you have an chance to get an aerial view of that area?

  21   A.  Yes.  On the afternoon of Sunday, August 9th, I went up in

  22   a Kenyan Army helicopter and had a chance to survey the scene

  23   from several thousand feet above it.

  24   Q.  Did you have an opportunity to review still photos and

  25   videos taken in the immediate aftermath of the incident on


   1   Friday morning?

   2   A.  Yes.  At our command post in Nairobi I had access to some

   3   videos and some still photographs that I was told were taken

   4   in the immediate aftermath of the explosion.

   5   Q.  Did you see any evidence in those videos or photographs of

   6   a crater or a large hole?

   7   A.  I saw, in one particular video I saw what appeared to be a

   8   hole in the parking area behind the embassy, and when I, in

   9   the video the hole was actually filled with water, so it's

  10   difficult to determine the extent of it.

  11   Q.  The red mark there that's in the back parking area of the

  12   embassy, does that accurately depict where you saw the hole in

  13   the videos that you looked at?

  14   A.  That appears to be roughly where I saw the hole, yes.

  15   Q.  Now, you mentioned that you walked around the area.  Can

  16   you tell us about what type of damage you saw outside the

  17   immediate vicinity of the US embassy?

  18   A.  As I walked up to the area from the temporary command post

  19   that we had set up, I noticed that virtually every building as

  20   I walked toward embassy, the windows were broken out.  As I

  21   got closer to the embassy, the amount of damage just increased

  22   incredibly; windows broken, metal frames from the facades of

  23   the buildings were twisted; masonry, that is brick work was

  24   either knocked down or cracked; there were burned out vehicles

  25   on the street, and I observed on several occasions what I


   1   recognized to be body parts still laying in the street.

   2   Q.  Now, Agent Sachtleben, did you get a chance to walk around

   3   the area right around the US embassy and the cooperative house

   4   and what's called the gateway house there on 802E?

   5   A.  Yes, I did.

   6            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, may I ask that Agent

   7   Sachtleben step down and approach the model?

   8            THE COURT:  Yes.

   9            (Witness left stand)

  10   Q.  Now, did you have a chance to make some observations about

  11   the center floor of the US embassy?

  12   A.  Yes, I did.

  13   Q.  What did you see?

  14   A.  The rear area of the embassy, that is the side of the

  15   embassy that faces into this parking area was just devastated.

  16   Every window was blown out.  The cement or brick work that was

  17   along the face of the wall of the embassy had numerous places

  18   where there appeared to be high velocity impact, that is,

  19   there were holes or cracks in the wall.

  20            I could see window frames that were just actually

  21   twisted right out of the wall itself.

  22   Q.  Did you take a tour of the inside of the embassy?

  23   A.  I did.

  24   Q.  Can you describe for us the damage you observed in there?

  25   A.  Looking at the rooms that were the closest to the back


   1   portion of the embassy here, those rooms were just almost

   2   completely destroyed.  The style of construction in the

   3   embassy was that internal walls were made of cinder block.

   4   Construction over there is different from what we would

   5   commonly have here, that is, dry walls.

   6            There they actually have this cinder block walls.  In

   7   many cases these cinder block walls were just completely

   8   knocked over.  There were piles of brick work, glass,

   9   overturned furniture, and there were in many places in those

  10   rooms where there were pools of blood or body parts that were

  11   in there.

  12   Q.  Did you have a chance to take a look at the outer facade

  13   of the cooperative house that faced the embassy?

  14   A.  Yes, I did.  This wall here that you see on the model,

  15   it's actually made from brick.  This, all 22 stories, brick

  16   work, and then in the center there is some windows.  All those

  17   window were broken.  The facade of the building was scorched

  18   as if it had been hit by a very high temperature and the brick

  19   work was cracked, and actually for the whole time that we were

  20   there pieces of brick were constantly falling off of the

  21   building and falling down 18 or 20 stories.

  22   Q.  And the building here in the back, the Ufundi House, did

  23   you see what was left of that building?

  24   A.  Well, what I saw when I got there was certainly not this.

  25   What I saw was really just like a pile of rubble.  This


   1   building had been reduced to maybe one or two stories high of

   2   flattened pieces of concrete steel and glass.  It was just an

   3   enormous mound of rubble.

   4            MR. KARAS:  Thank you.  You can return to the witness

   5   stand.

   6            (Witness resumed stand)

   7   Q.  Now, Agent Sachtleben, you mentioned earlier that you had

   8   developed a plan to recover evidence.  Can you summarize that

   9   plan for us, please.

  10   A.  As at any crime scene it's usually best to work from the

  11   outside in, but at this crime scene we had to be particularly

  12   aware of the fact that the efforts to rescue people who were

  13   still alive in that rubble were ongoing.  So in my plan we

  14   stayed well away from that pile of rubble and concentrated our

  15   efforts at the roof tops and some of the outlying areas away

  16   from the embassy.

  17   Q.  And did you eventually work your way in closer to the

  18   embassy?

  19   A.  Certainly.  Within several days the rescue efforts had

  20   gone as far as they could go at the Ufundi House, and when

  21   they had finished there, we turned our efforts to that pile of

  22   rubble.

  23   Q.  How was it that you recovered evidence from that the pile

  24   that was in the back of the embassy?

  25   A.  Well, as I mentioned, one of the biggest concerns we had


   1   there was our own physical safety.  The glass and bricks that

   2   were falling off of the cooperative bank made it almost

   3   impossible to work become there.  So I directed that we bring

   4   in some heavy equipment, some bulldozers, and we just scooped

   5   up scoops of this rubble and transported it a couple of

   6   hundred yards away to a safer area.

   7   Q.  And on the diagram that's marked 802E, can you tell us in

   8   a general direction that you removed the pile to?

   9   A.  If you look at the lower right-hand corner of the diagram

  10   it's actually just a little bit off of the diagram, but right

  11   in front of the Kenya railway station there, there was a flat

  12   clear area where we were able to work.

  13   Q.  Now, can you tell us what criteria you were using to

  14   actually collect evidence or just to retain it?

  15   A.  At a bombing scene what I look for and what I direct the

  16   team members to look for, any pieces, any objects at the scene

  17   that appear to have explosive damage to them.  That's one

  18   criteria.

  19            Another criteria is we're very interested in anything

  20   that doesn't seem to belong to the scene.  For example, we

  21   might find many window frames or doors or things like that

  22   that might have some explosive damage, but we're really not

  23   that interested in collecting too many of those, because we

  24   know what they are.  We're looking for things that simply

  25   don't belong there.


   1   Q.  And did you eventually finish your evidence collection

   2   efforts in the crime scene area?

   3   A.  Yes.  Our efforts went on until I believe it was August

   4   24th that we declared ourselves clear of that area.

   5   Q.  What happened with the items you elected to keep?

   6   A.  Items that were taken from the rubble pile and the other

   7   areas that we searched, those were stored in a locked and

   8   secure storage facility there at the crime scene.  On August

   9   28th I directed that those items be moved to a United States

  10   Air Force cargo plane and my team and I accompanied that plane

  11   back to the United States to Washington.

  12   Q.  Did you get a chance to analyze the pieces that you had

  13   collected from the crime scene back in Washington?

  14   A.  Yes.  Once I got them back into our laboratory I was able

  15   to make a more detailed examination of them.

  16            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, may I ask that Agent

  17   Sachtleben step back down?

  18            THE COURT:  Yes.  When you come to a good stopping

  19   point, maybe this is a good stopping point.

  20            MR. KARAS:  Yes, your Honor, that's fine.

  21            THE COURT:  I think we'll save until Monday the rest

  22   of your testimony.  We'll adjourn until Monday.  Have a good

  23   evening.

  24            (Continued on next page)



   1            (Jury not present)

   2            THE COURT:  Are there any matters counsel wish to

   3   take up before we resume own Monday?

   4            MR. COHN:  Just as a technical matter although I

   5   started with this witness Mr. Baugh will continue with this

   6   witness in violation of the usual rule.

   7            THE COURT:  My understanding and a lot of the concern

   8   is with Mr. Al-'Owhali's consent that you'll be absent next

   9   week and Mr. Baugh will interview.

  10            MR. COHN:  We confirmed that on the record yesterday

  11   and I'm not even sure it's necessary.  One of us had to be

  12   here and one of us will be.

  13            THE COURT:  I understand that there are some

  14   discussions going on about stipulations and discovery and so

  15   on.

  16            MR. SCHMIDT:  We will be meeting shortly.

  17            MR. FITZGERALD:  Shortly meaning not tonight.

  18            THE COURT:  I am available any time from 9 to 11

  19   tomorrow, if needed.  Otherwise, we're adjourned until Monday.

  20            (Adjourned to Monday, March 12, 2001 at 10 a.m.)







   1                        INDEX OF EXAMINATION

   2   Witness                    D      X      RD     RX

   3   CHARLES MUWAKA MULA.....2125   2142    2158

   4   PAUL SUVI WANGI.........2163

   5   MICHAEL OMUSI OPIYO.....2168

   6   ISMAIL JAMA ALI.........2172   2186    2187    2189

   7                                          2193    2197

   8                                                  2198

   9   JUSTUS MUTISYA..........2204

  10   DONALD SACHTLEBEN.......2212

  11                        GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS

  12   Exhibit No.                                     Received

  13    562 ........................................2150

  14    563 ........................................2151

  15    580-115 and 580-117 ........................2177

  16    47, 822, 822-P, 823 and 823-P ..............2206

  17    810H .......................................2209

  18    838, 815 through 837 and

  19    817P through 837P...........................2212

  20                         DEFENDANT EXHIBITS

  21   Exhibit No.                                     Received

  22    B, B1, B2, B3, B4, B5, B6, B7, B8,

  23    C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J and K................2045



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