22 March 2001
Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of
New York; (212) 805-0300.
This is the transcript of Day 21 of the trial, 22 March 2001.
See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm
3069
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 ------------------------------x
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
4 v. S(7) 98 Cr. 1023
5 USAMA BIN LADEN, et al.,
6 Defendants.
7 ------------------------------x
8
New York, N.Y.
9 March 22, 2001
10:50 a.m.
10
11
12 Before:
13 HON. LEONARD B. SAND,
14 District Judge
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3070
1 APPEARANCES
2 MARY JO WHITE
United States Attorney for the
3 Southern District of New York
BY: PATRICK FITZGERALD
4 KENNETH KARAS
PAUL BUTLER
5 Assistant United States Attorneys
6
SAM A. SCHMIDT
7 JOSHUA DRATEL
KRISTIAN K. LARSEN
8 Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage
9 ANTHONY L. RICCO
EDWARD D. WILFORD
10 CARL J. HERMAN
SANDRA A. BABCOCK
11 Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh
12 FREDRICK H. COHN
DAVID P. BAUGH
13 Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali
14 JEREMY SCHNEIDER
DAVID STERN
15 DAVID RUHNKE
Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3083
1 (Pages 3071 to 3082 filed under seal)
2 (In open court)
3 THE COURT: Just to complete the record on another
4 matter, the marshals have given me the six dates on or after
5 February 20th when Juror 647 was late by between 15 and 30
6 minutes. These six out of 13 days and its subsequent notes.
7 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we're having difficulty
8 hearing what you are saying. I'm sorry.
9 MR. COHN: We're trusting enough not to make you
10 repeat it, your Honor, but we didn't hear it.
11 THE COURT: The witness may take the stand and the
12 jury may come in.
13 (Jury present)
14 ROBERT MIRANDA, Resumes.
15 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
16 THE JURY: Good morning.
17 THE COURT: Juror 647 is not feeling well and he has
18 been excused from further service on this jury, and that means
19 that our numbers have dwindled by two since we started, which
20 means everybody stay healthy, please.
21 Very well, we'll resume. I believe the next item of
22 business is the cross-examination of the witness Robert
23 Miranda.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
25 THE COURT: Mr. Miranda, the Court advises you that
3084
1 you are still under oath.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
3 CROSS-EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. SCHMIDT:
5 Q Agent Miranda, did you have any involvement in the
6 investigation of the embassy bombings prior to visiting Mr. El
7 Hage and his wife April Ray?
8 A No, I don't believe I had any involvement.
9 Q Prior to going to Mr. El Hage's residence, you said you
10 went to his residence to interview his wife; is that correct?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q Originally, did you go there to interview Mr. El Hage as
13 well?
14 A No, I did not.
15 Q Did you contact Mrs. El Hage -- did you contact April Ray
16 prior to arriving at the home?
17 A No, I did not.
18 Q Do you know of any agent that did?
19 A What I recall is that Special Agent Coleman knocked on the
20 door and introduced himself and asked for an interview.
21 Q So it's your testimony, then, that to your knowledge no
22 one contacted Ms. April Ray prior to appearing at her front
23 door; is that correct?
24 A That's what I recall, sir, yes.
25 Q Were you given responsibility to interview April Ray prior
3085
1 to going to their home?
2 A Yes, I was.
3 Q To prepare for that interview did you review Mr. El Hage's
4 prior statements to government representatives on September
5 23, 1997 and October 17th, 1997?
6 A I don't think I did, sir. I'm not familiar with what
7 you're referring to.
8 Q Well, did you review any FBI documents or reports prior to
9 conducting the interview?
10 A I recall having a short conversation with Special Agent
11 Coleman. I may have reviewed something, sir, but I don't
12 recall if I did or not.
13 Q Would you have any kind of record that would indicate what
14 you reviewed at the time?
15 A No, I don't think I do, sir.
16 Q Did Agent Coleman instruct you as to what to ask Ms. Ray?
17 A Again, I'm sure Special Agent Coleman would have said
18 something to me because I was pretty unfamiliar with El Hage
19 and April Ray and the whole matter, but as to what that was, I
20 don't recall.
21 Q It's your testimony that on August 20th at approximately
22 2:15 p.m. Agent Coleman, accompanied by you and another agent,
23 not on knocked on the residence door of Wadih El Hage and
24 April Ray and their family; is that correct?
25 A That's correct, sir.
3086
1 Q Who answered the door?
2 A April Ray.
3 Q Your testimony indicated it was Agent Coleman introduced
4 himself and the others?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Did Ms. Ray indicate that she was, that she knew Agent
7 Coleman already?
8 A Absolutely. Before she even opened the door, she knew
9 Agent Coleman's name and voice and she said she had to cover
10 up real quickly. And it was obvious from her response to
11 Mr. Coleman that she was familiar with him.
12 Q When she opened the door, was she covered with a head
13 scarf?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q Did she invite Agent Coleman, you, and the other agent
16 into her home?
17 A Yes, she did.
18 Q Where did you conduct the interview with Ms. Ray?
19 A In the living room of her apartment.
20 Q You didn't come with a warrant of any kind; is that right?
21 A That's correct, sir.
22 Q You didn't come with a subpoena of any kind; is that
23 correct?
24 A There was no subpoena, sir. We asked to speak to her and
25 she said "sure."
3087
1 Q You conducted the interview with her by asking her
2 questions and answering them; is that correct?
3 A That's correct, sir.
4 Q Did you take any notes during that interview?
5 A No, I did not, sir.
6 Q To your knowledge, did any of the other agents take any
7 notes?
8 A To my knowledge, no other agents took any notes, sir.
9 Q Was Ms. Ray a good hostess?
10 A Yes, she was polite.
11 Q Did she offer you anything to drink?
12 A Yes, she did.
13 Q Did she appear to harbor any animosity?
14 A Not that I recall, sir.
15 Q She spoke fluent English?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q In fact, she spoke in a manner that you believe that she
18 was born and raised in the United States; is that right?
19 A That's correct, sir.
20 Q Were some of the children home at that time?
21 A Yes. I remember there were some children running around
22 and the T.V. was tuned to a cartoon station and some of the
23 kids were also watching T.V.
24 Q Did you hear the children talk?
25 A I'm sure I must have.
3088
1 Q Did they talk to Ms. Ray at times?
2 A Probably, sir.
3 Q Do you recall whether they spoke in English?
4 A I recall, yes, some spoke English. As a matter of fact, I
5 also think I heard some of the older children speaking Arabic
6 later on when two of them were brought into the house after
7 being picked up.
8 Q At school?
9 A I'm sorry, sir?
10 Q School, they were picked up at school?
11 A Right, after being picked up from school and brought back
12 to the apartment, I heard a smattering of Arabic.
13 Q Did you speak any Arabic?
14 A I'm learning Arabic right now, sir.
15 Q Now, Mr. El Hage came into the house at approximately
16 3:00; is that correct?
17 A That's correct, sir.
18 Q And you were interviewing Ms. Ray for approximately 45
19 minutes; is that right?
20 A Approximately, sir, yes.
21 Q Mr. El Hage and April Ray had a very brief conversation
22 prior to Ms. Ray leaving to pick up the children; is that
23 right?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q The conversation was about who was going to pick up the
3089
1 children at school?
2 A I think it was partially about that, sir.
3 Q Did you ask to speak to Mr. El Hage?
4 A Yes.
5 Q At what point after Mr. El Hage entered the home did you
6 ask to speak to Mr. El Hage?
7 A I recall that I introduced myself and Agent Vicki Warwood,
8 who was with me, and asked if we could ask him since he had
9 lived in Kenya, if we could ask him a couple of questions
10 about recent events there, and he said yes.
11 Q Was Agent Coleman still there?
12 A No, he was not. Agent Coleman left almost immediately
13 after introducing us.
14 Q Just like your conversation with Ms. Ray, your
15 conversation with Mr. El Hage consisted of you asking
16 questions and him giving answers to your questions; is that
17 right?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q For how long did you have a conversation with Mr. El Hage?
20 A I think it was for approximately about an hour before he
21 said he had to excuse himself and return to work.
22 Q During that time you asked Mr. El Hage many questions?
23 A I don't know what your definition of "many" is, but I
24 asked him some questions, sure.
25 Q And he answered them?
3090
1 A Yes, he did.
2 Q He was cooperative?
3 A I think for the most part.
4 Q Did he -- he didn't refuse to answer any questions, did
5 he?
6 A No. By that, sir, I mean to say that --
7 Q Did he refuse to answer any questions?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q When you wanted to ask -- when you told Mr. El Hage that
10 you wanted to ask him questions because he lived in Kenya, and
11 you wanted to ask him about recent events, you meant the
12 bombing at the embassy; is that right?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q Now, this was less than two weeks after the embassy
15 bombing, is that right, that you had this conversation with
16 Mr. El Hage?
17 A Correct, sir.
18 Q And from the time of the bombing to the time of your
19 interview with Mr. El Hage, there were many reports in the
20 media concerning the speculation that Usama Bin Laden was
21 somehow involved in the bombing; is that correct?
22 A I'm sure that's correct, sir.
23 Q In fact, prior to your conversation with Mr. El Hage, the
24 United States had already launched strikes against Usama Bin
25 Laden in Afghanistan and against a pharmaceutical company in
3091
1 the Sudan; is that right?
2 A I'm not sure of the timing of that, sir, but I know of
3 those events, yes.
4 Q You know that there were people who were already arrested
5 in relation to the embassy bombings; is that right?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q And those arrests were reported in the media; is that
8 correct?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q You asked Mr. El Hage questions about Mr. Bin Laden,
11 didn't you?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q And you asked him questions concerning why Mr. Bin Laden,
14 I think I you used the word, hated Americans; is that right?
15 A That's correct. I asked him why he had such a hatred of
16 the West, the United States, based upon his knowledge of him
17 personally.
18 Q So the word "hatred" was your word; is that correct?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And during the ensuing conversations you had with Mr. El
21 Hage, after asking that question, Mr. El Hage, without
22 hesitation, answered what his beliefs were of Usama Bin
23 Laden's, what you call hatred of the West; is that right?
24 A As I recall, sir --
25 Q Is that correct, sir?
3092
1 A No, that's not correct, sir.
2 Q Did he hesitate when he was talking to you concerning
3 that?
4 A No, he did not hesitate.
5 Q Did he express his own -- withdrawn. He expressed not
6 only his beliefs of Mr. Bin Laden, he also indicated to you
7 some of his own beliefs about the opposition to some American
8 policies, isn't that right?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And he was quite frank with you as to why he thought that
11 some of the American policies towards the Middle East were
12 wrong; is that correct?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q And he indicated to you that Mr. Bin Laden opposed the
15 troop presence in Saudi Arabia; is that right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q He said that true believing Muslims believed that the
18 United States should not have troops in Saudi Arabia, the land
19 of the holy place; is that right?
20 A I think his answer was that, like any true believing
21 Muslim, the U.S. should not have a presence. I think the word
22 in my 302 is "presence," sir.
23 Q Now, you weren't taking any notes during that interview;
24 is that right?
25 A That's correct, sir.
3093
1 Q And you had an interview with him for about an hour; is
2 that right?
3 A That's correct, sir.
4 Q And after your interview, you went back to your office; is
5 that right?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And did you write any notes right after your interview
8 when you went back to the office as to what Mr. El Hage said?
9 A No, I did not, sir.
10 Q So the words that you now are quoting us in your 302 is
11 what you remember hours later or a day later of the word that
12 Mr. El Hage said without having notes, right?
13 A Sir, I said I did not prepare any notes, but I did
14 immediately start preparing my 302.
15 Q Where did you prepare the 302, in Mr. El Hage's house?
16 A No, sir, back in the office.
17 Q And that preparation as to the exact words that were used
18 were based on your memory without any notes; is that correct?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Besides telling you about the U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia,
21 he also talked about the fact that the U.S. government was
22 unfair in its treatment of Israel and the Palestinians, isn't
23 that right?
24 A He said that the U.S. policy was unfairly supportive of
25 Israel.
3094
1 Q Is that his exact words? Is that a quote from what he
2 said or the substance of what he said?
3 A That's the substance, sir.
4 Q So when you are telling us the words that he used, you are
5 using -- you are basically stating the substance of what he
6 said and not an exact quote; is that correct?
7 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form.
8 THE COURT: Overruled.
9 You may answer.
10 A No, sir. In some instances the words he used struck me as
11 odd or significant, and so in some instances the responses are
12 using his words. In other instances, it's the substance of
13 what he said.
14 Q As you sit here today, you recognize the difference when
15 you actually quoted Mr. El Hage an hour and a half, two hours
16 after you had the conversation with him for an hour and the
17 ones that you put down the substance of his conversation, is
18 that what you are telling us now?
19 A I'm sorry, could you rephrase that, sir?
20 Q Yes. Are you telling us that now you recognize --
21 withdrawn.
22 You had a conversation with Mr. El Hage for an hour;
23 is that right?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q He lived in Arlington; is that right?
3095
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q After the conversation, you left Arlington and you drove
3 to Dallas, where your office was; is that correct?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q How long of a drive is that?
6 A Half-hour, probably.
7 Q Then you went to park your car, went up to your office; is
8 that right?
9 A That's correct, sir.
10 Q You started typing out your report; is that right?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q First part of the report that you typed out was your
13 conversation with Ms. Ray; is that right?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Then eventually you got to the conversation where you
16 started typing out with Mr. El Hage; is that right?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q And then you covered generally your conversation with
19 Mr. El Hage in your report; is that right?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q And you're telling us now when you reached the point where
22 you're now describing your conversation with Mr. El Hage,
23 that, without any notes at all, you were able to quote things
24 that he said earlier to you absolutely verbatim, is that what
25 you're telling us?
3096
1 A Sir, I said --
2 Q Is that what you're telling us?
3 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, your Honor. If he may
4 answer the question.
5 THE COURT: He may answer.
6 A Sir, I said that in instances where his answers were
7 significant or he used words that struck me as significant,
8 yes. In other --
9 Q How many?
10 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, may the witness finish
11 the answer?
12 THE COURT: Yes.
13 MR. SCHMIDT: I believe he did.
14 Q Did you finish your answer?
15 A Go ahead, sir. Continue.
16 Q How many occasions of what he said struck you as
17 significant or odd that you quoted Mr. El Hage verbatim in
18 your report?
19 A I'd have to read the report, sir, and look. But I recall
20 from the 302 that there were phrases -- for instance, "like
21 any true believing Muslim," that's not something that I would
22 have wrote myself. I believe those to be his exact words.
23 Q So the phrase "true believing Muslim" may be verbatim as
24 to Mr. El Hage; is that correct?
25 A That's correct, sir.
3097
1 Q But the rest of the discussion as to American troops in
2 Saudi Arabia is generally the substance but not a quote, isn't
3 that right?
4 A That's probably correct, sir.
5 Q Mr. El Hage, in substance, said that he believed American
6 policy towards Israel was unfair, isn't that right?
7 A That's correct, sir.
8 Q Now, let's use the word "unfair." Was that a verbatim
9 word or your sense of what Mr. El Hage was saying?
10 A I don't recall whether that was his word or not.
11 Q Well, when he said "the United States policy," was the
12 word "policy" verbatim or the sense of what he was talking
13 about?
14 A That was probably the sense of what he was talking about,
15 sir.
16 Q During the time that he was talking about American policy,
17 was that one answer or did you ask him some questions in
18 between?
19 A As I recall, that was more of a conversation. I'm sure
20 that there were questions in between to have him elaborate on
21 points.
22 Q And he was responsive to your questions concerning both
23 his feelings towards American policy and what he believed that
24 Mr. Bin Laden's feelings were towards American policy; is that
25 right?
3098
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q Is there any other word that you recall that struck you as
3 either odd or so very important that, in the area of American
4 foreign policy that you quoted verbatim?
5 A Are you talking about just the part about the foreign
6 policy, sir?
7 Q That's correct.
8 A At this point, no, I don't recall that there was.
9 Q Did you think it was odd that Mr. El Hage thought that the
10 U.S. policy towards Israel and the Palestinians were unfair?
11 A No.
12 Q Did you think it odd that Mr. El Hage believed that
13 American troops should not be in the Saudi Peninsula, the land
14 of the holy place?
15 A No.
16 Q Now, in fact, you said in your direct examination, after
17 the discussion of American foreign policy, that, "During that
18 answer, he often switched between using 'he' for Bin Laden and
19 'we' when describing the hatred to the U.S. and the West."
20 Do you remember testifying to that?
21 A Yes, sir, that's correct.
22 Q Now, first, that answer is incorrect because it's not the
23 question, there were numerous questions; isn't that correct?
24 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.
25 THE COURT: Sustained.
3099
1 Rephrase the question.
2 Q You testified to us that your conversation about U.S.
3 policy was a conversation back and forth, isn't that right?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q When you testified here earlier, you said on Tuesday, you
6 said that the answer that Mr. El Hage gave to the answer,
7 right? Now, that wasn't correct, isn't that right?
8 A You're going to have to rephrase that, sir. I'm not sure
9 I understood that.
10 Q It wasn't one answer. It was an answer to many questions
11 that you asked him, following up his initial statements; isn't
12 that correct?
13 A That's correct, sir.
14 Q And so a lot of your question didn't concern Mr. Bin
15 Laden, it concerned Mr. El Hage's beliefs about the American
16 foreign policy; is that correct?
17 A No, that's not correct, sir.
18 Q Are you saying that you just asked repeatedly about
19 Mr. Bin Laden?
20 A Sir, I was interested in Mr. El Hage's understanding of
21 Mr. Bin Laden's hatred of the United States and the West. On
22 occasion, Mr. El Hage switched between the use of "he" and
23 "we," putting in some of his own feelings, apparently, into
24 the question or questions that I was asking him.
25 Q Well, let's see -- withdrawn.
3100
1 You told us the first question you asked Mr. El Hage
2 concerning Mr. Bin Laden's AntiAmericanism; is that right?
3 A I'm sorry, I told --
4 Q You told us the first question how you introduced that
5 subject to Mr. El Hage? Remember the question that you
6 testified to?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q Could you tell us some of the other questions that you
9 asked Mr. El Hage to elicit the information that you were
10 seeking?
11 A No, I can't, sir.
12 Q Can you tell us at which point he said "I" as opposed to
13 "he" or "we" as opposed to "he"?
14 A Yes, sir, I can.
15 Q On how many occasions did he do that?
16 A At least once, sir.
17 Q So you remember one, is that your testimony?
18 A Yes, sir, I remember at least one.
19 Q Well, you say "at least one." That would leave open the
20 possibility that there were two, three or four.
21 My question is now to you, how many do you actually
22 remember?
23 A I can quote you one, sir.
24 Q Quote me one.
25 A "A lot of people want the world to live according to the
3101
1 Koran, but we don't have the resources. He has the resources
2 to make the world live according to the Koran."
3 Q So the "we," he was referring to a lot of people want?
4 A I don't know who he was referring to -- well, multiple
5 people, of course, sir.
6 Q Well, he said "a lot of people want the world to follow
7 the Koran and we..." The "we" referred to that prior portion
8 of his statement, isn't that right?
9 A I don't know, sir. I can't speak for what that "we" was.
10 Q Well, Mr. El Hage never used the word "hatred," did he?
11 A I don't recall that he did, sir.
12 Q So when you said "when describing the hatred of the United
13 States and the West," that was basically referring to the
14 first question that you asked him even to bring up the topic;
15 isn't that correct?
16 A That's probably correct, sir.
17 Q So it had nothing to do with actually his answers and
18 specifically his answers where he included "we," where he
19 included himself; isn't that correct?
20 A No, sir, I don't think that is correct.
21 Q Well, could you tell us another time where he referred to
22 as "we" relating to anything to do with the hatred of the
23 United States?
24 A I can't recall that request, sir.
25 Q There was another time in your conversation that Mr. El
3102
1 Hage used the phrase "true believing Muslims," isn't that
2 right?
3 A There was another time, sir?
4 Q Yes. Wasn't there?
5 A I recall that he used the word "committed."
6 Q One of the things that stuck in your mind in your
7 conversation earlier about American policy was when he used
8 the words "any true believing Muslim"; is that correct?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q That stuck in your mind?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Well, did it stick in your mind another occasion where he
13 said "as a true believing Muslim"?
14 A I don't recall, sir.
15 Q Let me ask you this question, then, sir. When you asked
16 him -- withdrawn.
17 You asked him, Would you support Bin Laden if you
18 learned of his involvement in the bombing; is that right?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Right? And do you recall him telling you that, "As a true
21 believing Muslim, I follow the guidance of the Koran and not
22 people. If Bin Laden was involved, it was a mistake, that Bin
23 Laden would be wrong in conducting such an act because there
24 is no guidance for it in the Koran and I would not support
25 him."
3103
1 A That's correct, sir.
2 Q He said that?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q And he used in that same word "as a true" -- that same
5 answer "as a true believing Muslim" as well as when he was
6 describing American troops in Saudi Arabia, isn't that right?
7 A If that's in my 302, sir, yes.
8 Q Well, do you have a memory of such an important phrase
9 presently of him saying that now?
10 A Now, two years after the interview, sir?
11 Q Yes.
12 A I recall parts of it, yes. But I don't have the entire
13 thing memorized, if that's what you're asking.
14 Q You told us how you remembered it was because it was so
15 important --
16 A That's correct.
17 Q -- in describing the American foreign policy and Bin
18 Laden's hatred of the United States.
19 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.
20 THE COURT: Objection sustained. Just ask a
21 question.
22 Q Well, let me ask you to take a look at your -- this
23 document marked as 3586-1 at page 4 at one of the highlighted
24 portions.
25 MR. SCHMIDT: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
3104
1 Q Please read this to yourself.
2 (Pause)
3 A I'm done, sir.
4 Q Having reviewed that document, does that give you a
5 present recollection of the statement that I asked you if
6 Mr. El Hage made?
7 A I recall the statement, yes, sir.
8 Q Was "true believing Muslim" Mr. El Hage's terms?
9 A I think that's his phrase, sir, yes.
10 Q You said also "a committed Muslim" at some point?
11 A That's correct, sir.
12 Q And what point was that?
13 A I believe that was in the interview later on in the
14 evening with Special Agent Coleman.
15 MR. SCHMIDT: May I approach the document?
16 Q After the discussion of the foreign policy of the United
17 States, you asked Mr. El Hage as to his opinion as to whether
18 Bin Laden was involved in the bombing, didn't you?
19 A Yes, sir, I asked him that question.
20 Q And Mr. El Hage told you that he didn't believe that Bin
21 Laden was responsible because it occurred in the area where
22 obviously innocent women and children would be killed. It was
23 a congested area, isn't that right?
24 A Yes, sir, that's part of the answer.
25 Q Now, you then asked him about what type of intelligence
3105
1 Bin Laden would have in Nairobi, didn't you?
2 A I don't know if I asked that specific question or that
3 simply was the answer, sir.
4 Q Isn't it a fact that the use of the word "intelligence"
5 was your word and Mr. El Hage responded to your question;
6 isn't that correct?
7 A I don't recall whether that was the use of my word or not,
8 sir. I do know that it's in my notes with an exclamation
9 point, signifying to me that it was significant.
10 Q It was significant enough to make an exclamation point.
11 Was it significant enough to put down the question and the
12 answer in a manner that explained who actually used the word
13 "intelligence"?
14 A Can you repeat that, please, sir?
15 THE COURT: No, suppose you restate it and ask a more
16 direct question.
17 Q You don't have a present recollection of who actually used
18 the word "intelligence," isn't that correct, Agent Miranda?
19 A That's correct, sir.
20 Q It wasn't significant at the time for you to put down
21 clearly who --
22 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, your Honor.
23 Q -- used the word "intelligence"?
24 THE COURT: Sustained. Asked and answered. Let's
25 move on.
(Continued on next page)
3106
1 Q In fact, in the evening interview with Mr. El Hage you
2 asked the same question over again about Mr. Bin Laden's
3 intelligence ability in Nairobi, didn't you?
4 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 A I don't think you are phrasing -- I don't think that is
7 correct, sir. In the morning -- I am sorry -- in the first
8 interview taking place at his house, I think I asked the
9 question whether or not he thought Bin Laden did it. I don't
10 think that the use of the word intelligence ever came up in
11 the first part of the interview.
12 Q The first part of the interview you don't think the word
13 intelligence came up at all in the interview at his home? Is
14 that what you are saying?
15 A What I am saying, sir, is, the question was whether or not
16 he thought Bin Laden did it. That question was asked again,
17 as I recall, in the second interview. That is where the
18 answer, as I recall, involving the word intelligence came up.
19 Q Just so it is clear, are you saying that the word
20 intelligence did not come up in the afternoon?
21 A I think that is correct, sir. I think that is reflected
22 in my 302.
23 Q Did you ask Mr. El Hage to come back to your office in the
24 evening?
25 A Yes, we did. We asked him if he would be willing to talk
3107
1 to us again.
2 Q Did he voluntarily come down to your office?
3 A Yes, he did, sir.
4 Q I guess I heard you say that Officer Coleman was present
5 at the office interview?
6 A Special Agent Coleman was present for the second
7 interview, along with myself, sir.
8 Q This time you actually took notes of the interview; is
9 that right?
10 A That is correct, sir.
11 Q Did you tape record the interview with Mr. El Hage, you
12 and Agent Coleman, that evening?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Were you aware at that time that Mr. El Hage's
15 conversations were over a year, 15, 16 months, were tape
16 recorded and intercepted prior to your conversations?
17 A It is my understanding that there was interceptions going
18 on, but I wasn't privy to those.
19 Q Are you aware that it was actually at his home, at his
20 place of business, telephone conversations were being
21 intercepted as you were speaking to him in your office?
22 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, your Honor. 401 and --
23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 MR. SCHMIDT: Excuse me.
25 THE COURT: Sustained.
3108
1 Q Were you aware that he was being tape recorded in other
2 locations?
3 A I understand that there was intelligence gathering going
4 on, sir, but again, I wasn't privy to that.
5 Q But you knew that he was being tape recorded.
6 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, your Honor. Same
7 objection.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 Q You didn't make any efforts to tape record the
10 conversations with Mr. El Hage to have an absolute copy of
11 your conversation with him; is that right?
12 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Let's have an answer and then --
14 A Absolutely not.
15 Q You would know that if you had a tape recorded
16 conversation of an interview with Mr. El Hage that reflected
17 what you said and what he said there would be no disputes as
18 to what was said either verbatim or as to the subject; is that
19 correct?
20 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.
21 THE COURT: You may answer the question.
22 A Sir, I know that I would have been breaking bureau policy
23 in recording that interview.
24 Q Did you ask Mr. El Hage if you could tape record your
25 discussions?
3109
1 A No, I did not.
2 Q So you never asked him for permission?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q You wanted to go down to your office to continue talking
5 because you were in the midst of a criminal investigation; is
6 that right? You asked him to come down to your office because
7 the FBI was in the midst of a criminal investigation involving
8 the embassy bombing; is that right?
9 A Yes, sir, we wanted to talk to him further.
10 Q And you wanted to talk to him further because you believed
11 that he could provide information; is that right?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Do you recall when Mr. El Hage used the term committed
14 Muslims in that conversation?
15 A I would have to review the 302, sir.
16 Q Is committed Muslims one of the words or phrases that
17 stuck in your mind because it was unusual or significant?
18 A Yes, sir, I thought it was significant at the time.
19 Q Did Mr. El Hage make it very clear during your
20 conversation that he believed that committed Muslims would not
21 carry out such bombings?
22 A No. Actually, sir, there is something he said that made
23 that unclear to me in fact.
24 Q Is your answer then no, he didn't say that?
25 A No, sir. I am saying no --
3110
1 Q The question that I gave --
2 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.
3 THE COURT: Let him answer.
4 Q The question that I --
5 THE COURT: Let him answer.
6 MR. SCHMIDT: He was not responsive to my question.
7 THE COURT: Please.
8 MR. FITZGERALD: Move to strike.
9 THE COURT: Stricken. Had you finished your answer?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 Q Did he say to you that he did not think committed Muslims
13 like Usama Bin Laden carried out the bombings?
14 A That was part of the answer, yes, sir.
15 Q Was part of the answer that it would be inevitable that
16 innocent women and children would be killed and injured in
17 that bombing because of the location?
18 A That's not the way it was phrased but the substance is
19 there.
20 Q Did you ask him or make a statement concerning Mr. Bin
21 Laden's right to attack innocent people?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q Do you recall what you said to Mr. El Hage?
24 A I said would you agree with the statement that if Usama
25 Bin Laden was responsible that he had no right to attack
3111
1 innocent people?
2 Q What did Mr. El Hage say?
3 A Mr. El Hage agreed with me.
4 Q Did you ask Mr. El Hage why he believed Mr. Bin Laden
5 hired him?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q Did Mr. El Hage without hesitation tell you that part of
8 the reason was that he had an American passport and can travel
9 around the world freely?
10 A And buy things for him, yes, sir.
11 Q Were you aware at that time that Mr. Bin Laden was in the
12 Sudan?
13 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form.
14 MR. SCHMIDT: I will rephrase that question.
15 Q Did you follow up that question in any way?
16 A I am not sure I understand. Did I follow up what
17 question?
18 Q Did you ask him why it would be important for Mr. Bin
19 Laden to have somebody able to travel around?
20 A No, I don't believe I followed up on that, sir.
21 Q You didn't ask him, were you aware that it was difficult
22 for people with Sudanese or passports of some Middle Eastern
23 countries to travel around the world at that time?
24 A No, I didn't follow up on that, sir.
25 Q You told us that you showed him some photographs; is that
3112
1 correct?
2 A That is correct, sir.
3 Q Could you pronounce the word spelled H-O-U-E-D?
4 A Hoday.
5 Q Is that the name of the person that you asked Mr. El Hage
6 if he knew?
7 A I think it was pronounced Odeh when I said it to him
8 originally.
9 Q Did you spell it "Hoday" in your report?
10 A I believe I had that in parentheses, yes, sir.
11 Q I am going to ask you to look at 3586-1 at page 5, where I
12 made brackets. Please read it to yourself. May I approach
13 the witness, your Honor?
14 A Sure.
15 Q Now do you recall which of the words that you had in
16 brackets?
17 A Yes, sir. It says on the report Odeh is in brackets in
18 that instance.
19 Q And the word that is not in brackets is "Hoday"; isn't
20 that right?
21 A That is correct, sir.
22 Q You also indicated that when you showed him the
23 photographs -- withdrawn.
24 Do you know when those photographs were taken?
25 A No, I don't, sir.
3113
1 Q Were you aware that the individual in the photographs had
2 a substantial beard prior to his arrest?
3 A I was not familiar with that individual, sir, prior to the
4 interview.
5 Q Did you talk to Mr. El Hage, ask Mr. El Hage how he ended
6 up in Nairobi?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q Did he tell you when he came to Nairobi?
9 A Approximately, sir, yes.
10 Q Was that May of 1994?
11 A I think that is correct, sir.
12 Q Would you like to review your notes to be sure?
13 A Sure.
14 Q I show you 3586-2.
15 Does that refresh your recollection?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q When did he tell you he came to Nairobi?
18 A It says up to '94, May.
19 Q Up to '94 May worked for Bin Laden in Khartoum, is that
20 correct?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Did Mr. El Hage explain to you that his wife was unhappy
23 in Khartoum and he wanted to leave Khartoum?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q And that he received an opportunity to open an office of a
3114
1 nongovernmental organization in Africa?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q Did he tell you who gave him that opportunity?
4 A He didn't identify individuals in particular. He said
5 when he traveled to Germany and visited the Islamic Center,
6 that the opportunity arose.
7 Q Did he explain to you that he went to Nairobi because that
8 was the most stable country in East Africa, if not Africa?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Did he openly tell you that he knew a person named Harun?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And he told you that in fact he was Harun's boss when he
13 opened the nongovernmental agency Help Africa People; isn't
14 that right?
15 A I don't think that is correct, sir. He didn't say when he
16 opened it. He said that he was his boss, that's correct. But
17 he said that he previously worked for another nongovernmental
18 organization prior to coming to the Help Africa People.
19 Q And it was clear in that conversation that Harun worked
20 for this other agency and then came to work for his agency.
21 A That's correct, sir.
22 Q And he told you that he sent Harun to Somalia?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And that one of the reasons that he hired Harun was
25 because he was able to go to Somalia and help the relief
3115
1 agencies in Somalia.
2 A I don't think he said he hired him for that reason. He
3 previous employer, his being Harun's, Sheikh Adam, or Ahmed
4 Tawhil, gave that piece of advice to El Hage, saying that
5 Harun was good at getting information on Somalia.
6 Q In the course of the conversation, it was clear to you
7 that that was a factor in hiring Harun?
8 A I am not sure it was a factor or not, sir. I didn't think
9 of it at the time.
10 Q Did Mr. El Hage tell you without hesitation that Harun
11 lived at times with his family in Nairobi? Let me rephrase
12 that.
13 Did Mr. El Hage tell you that Mr. Harun lived with
14 Mr. El Hage's family in Nairobi at times?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q He also told you that Mr. Harun's wife lived in Mombasa;
17 is that right?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q And that Harun traveled to Mombasa to spend time with his
20 wife as well; is that right?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And he said to you, Mr. El Hage, that he visited Mr. Harun
23 in Mombasa, right?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q He also explained to you that when he was traveling, when
3116
1 Mr. El Hage was traveling, that either Harun and his wife
2 would come up and stay with his wife, April Ray and the
3 family, or sometimes another person and his wife would come up
4 and stay there; is that right?
5 A I recall him saying that, yes, he would bring up his wife
6 from Mombasa and they would stay at the El Hage residence
7 while Mr. El Hage was absent.
8 Q Were you aware of any reports about fraudulent passports
9 or visas in Kenya?
10 A No, sir, I don't recall that.
11 Q So you didn't ask Mr. El Hage about fraudulent passports
12 or visas, right?
13 A No, sir, not that I recall.
14 Q Mr. El Hage told you that Harun was trying to get Kenyan
15 papers for himself, right?
16 A That is correct, sir.
17 Q He didn't make a secret of that, he didn't try to hide
18 that, he openly told you that, right?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q He also told you that Harun told him in September of 1997
21 that his mother, being Harun's mother, was ill in the Comoros
22 Islands, and that he, Harun, was going to be going there to
23 see his mother; is that correct?
24 A That is correct, sir.
25 Q And he said that was the last time that he saw Harun; is
3117
1 that right?
2 A That's correct, sir.
3 Q He also told you that Harun took computer lessons,
4 computer courses; is that right?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q And was good at the computer.
7 A I don't know if he said he was good at the computer.
8 Q He also said that he sent Harun to the scene of the
9 ferryboat accident; is that right?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q Did you ever ask Mr. El Hage if he went to Somalia?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Did Mr. El Hage tell you that he went to the area of
14 Somalia around Mandera?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q Do you know where Mandera is?
17 A No, I don't, sir.
18 Q There was also some conversation concerning a place called
19 Luq.
20 A Is there a question with that, sir?
21 Q Did you have a conversation with Mr. El Hage at all
22 concerning a place called Luq?
23 A Yes, sir, that came up.
24 Q Did that come up by a question of yours or did Mr. El Hage
25 raise that, or don't you remember?
3118
1 A No, sir, that would have been a question of Special Agent
2 Coleman. I was not familiar with Luq.
3 Q The question about Somalia probably came from Agent
4 Coleman as well.
5 A The majority of the questions at the second interview in
6 the FBI office did, sir.
7 Q Are you aware of what documents or FBI reports that Agent
8 Coleman was familiar with?
9 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.
10 THE COURT: Was he aware of what Agent Coleman --
11 yes, sustained.
12 Q Agent Coleman took on the lion's share of the questioning
13 of Mr. El Hage because he knew more about the case than you
14 did, right?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q In fact, he was one of the case agents, wasn't he?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q And as a case agent he would be familiar with all of the
19 prior 302's prepared -- excuse me -- all the prior reports
20 prepared by the FBI in the case; is that correct?
21 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Sustained.
23 Q As a case agent, a case agent would be aware of all the
24 prior FBI reports on the case, wouldn't he?
25 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.
3119
1 THE COURT: Sustained.
2 Q Have you ever been a case agent on a case?
3 A Yes, sir, I have.
4 Q On the case that you were a case agent, you familiarize
5 yourself with all the reports on a case?
6 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection. Same objection.
7 THE COURT: You can ask him what he understands the
8 role of a case agent to be.
9 Q Is it the role of a case agent to be aware of all of the
10 information gathered by the agency about a case?
11 A Being a case agent presently, sir, I don't know that the
12 word all is good. You try to, obviously, absorb as much as
13 you can.
14 Q If you are going to be interviewing a witness as a case
15 agent, you would certainly absorb or read all the reports
16 concerning that witness, wouldn't you?
17 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.
18 THE COURT: Several objections. One is the witness's
19 objection to all, and I sustain the objection on that ground.
20 In any event, I think we should move on.
21 Q Do you recall Mr. El Hage saying that he was aware that
22 the town of Luq was attacked by Ethiopians?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And he was aware that the Mercy International had a
25 presence in Luq, orphanages, a school and a hospital?
3120
1 A No, I don't recall that, sir. I thought he said the Mercy
2 International office in Mandera, but I would have to review
3 the notes to be clear on that.
4 Q I didn't say where the office was but they had a presence.
5 A I wasn't aware that they had a presence there, sir.
6 Q Who asked the question concerning Ahmed Tawhil? Was that
7 Agent Coleman?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Did Mr. El Hage tell you and Agent Coleman what Ahmed
10 Tawhil's full name was?
11 A I think he did tell us the full name.
12 Q Do you recall what the full name is of Mr. Ahmed Tawhil?
13 A It's my understanding that he is Ahmed Sheikh Adam.
14 Q Adam or Adan? With an M or N at the end?
15 A M as in Michael.
16 Q Did Mr. El Hage tell you and Agent Coleman that he in fact
17 introduced Ahmed Tawhil to Madani al Tayyib?
18 A I am not clear on that point, sir. I would have to review
19 the 302.
20 Q Do you recall if Agent Coleman asked, or you asked a
21 question concerning Madani al Tayyib?
22 A I am sure it wasn't me, sir, because I wasn't familiar
23 with that individual.
24 MR. SCHMIDT: If I may, your Honor, approach the
25 witness with 3586-2, page 4.
3121
1 THE COURT: Yes.
2 Q Does that refresh your recollection?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Did El Hage tell you and Agent Coleman that he in fact
5 introduced Ahmed Tawhil to Madani al Tayyib?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q Did he tell you that he had a conversation in August with
8 Ahmed Tawhil concerning doing deals for tires and old cars as
9 well as his personal --
10 A Sir, I am not clear that that was 1994.
11 Q Excuse me. You say you don't know that it was 1994?
12 A You are saying if there was a conversation in August 1994?
13 Q No, August 1998.
14 A Yes, sir, he did have a conversation at that time but not
15 in 1994, to my knowledge.
16 Q Either you misunderstood or if I misspoke, I apologize.
17 You are talking about a conversation recently.
18 A Sir, it was approximately a month prior to the interview.
19 Q And that was about both personal things because he knew
20 Ahmed Tawhil, and trying to do a deal for tires and cars; is
21 that correct?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q And you were aware where Mr. El Hage worked at the time of
24 the interview, weren't you?
25 A Yes, sir.
3122
1 Q Where was that?
2 A Lone Star Tires, sir.
3 Q It's a tire store, right?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Sells tires.
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q Mr. El Hage also told you that shortly or almost
8 immediately after the bombing he tried to reach his friend
9 Salim Chichi, who was in the Criminal Investigation Division
10 in Nairobi; isn't it correct?
11 A No, sir, he just used the word Salim. I am not familiar
12 with that last name you just used.
13 Q But he told you that Salim was a member of the Criminal
14 Investigation Division of the Kenyan police department.
15 A That is correct, sir.
16 Q And he was concerned because he worked in a building near
17 the embassy.
18 A Yes, sir, a bank.
19 Q And that Mr. Salim was a good Muslim that he knew from
20 Nairobi.
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Did either you or Agent Coleman ask Mr. El Hage about
23 secret meetings that Mr. Bin Laden had while he was in
24 Khartoum?
25 A No, sir, I don't think we asked that question. I know
3123
1 there was an answer involving aspects of what you just said.
2 I don't know how that was raised, though.
3 Q At some point Mr. El Hage explained to you that he was
4 aware of the existence if not the substance of secret meetings
5 that Mr. Bin Laden had with other people; is that right?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q But you don't recall what question elicited that
8 information; is that what your testimony is?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q When he explained why he understood -- he explained that
11 to you and Agent Coleman; is that right?
12 A That is correct, sir.
13 Q Are you aware of Mr. El Hage's explanation of his
14 awareness of secret meetings back in an interview that he had
15 with your office in 1997?
16 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.
17 THE COURT: Sustained as to the form. It is not a
18 clear question.
19 Q Were you aware that Agent Coleman had a conversation with
20 Mr. El Hage in 1997 about secret meetings?
21 A Sir, I wasn't at the Dallas division in 1997, nor am I
22 aware of the substance of any discussions he had with him.
23 Q So Agent Coleman didn't explain any of that to you?
24 A No, sir.
25 Q After Mr. El Hage indicated his awareness of the existence
3124
1 of secret meetings but not the substance of it, did you or
2 Agent Coleman ask him a followup question?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q So when you said he did not provide any further details
5 concerning it, it is because you didn't ask him any further
6 questions; is that right?
7 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form.
8 THE COURT: You may answer.
9 A That is correct, sir.
10 Q You also discussed with Mr. El Hage about gemstones; is
11 that right?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Do you recall how that was raised?
14 A That was part of his answer in response to the question
15 about why he returned to the United States, and he first began
16 by saying I originally wanted to go back to Pakistan to do a
17 gemstone business. That's how that evolved.
18 Q He was talking about trying to do a gemstone deal with the
19 Taliban, the rulers of most of Afghanistan at that time; is
20 that correct?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And he was hoping that that would be a very substantial
23 deal and he would be able to make a substantial amount of
24 money in the gemstone business with the Taliban; is that
25 right?
3125
1 A I am not sure, sir, how substantial it was. I don't
2 recall details about the money involved or how big the deal
3 was.
4 Q Did he talk to you about how the stones were going to be
5 shipped to Hong Kong and China?
6 A Yes, he talked about that.
7 Q Did he talk about his partner in that, Mohamed Ali?
8 A I don't recall his name being used in that context, sir.
9 Q Do you recall him using the name Mohamed Ali as a person
10 involved in the gemstone business?
11 A I am sorry. Could you rephrase that. Did you say would
12 you or could you recall?
13 Q Do you recall Mr. El Hage mentioning the name Mohamed Ali
14 as a person who was involved in the gemstone business?
15 A I don't, sir.
16 Q Do you recall him talking about Mohamed Ali traveling to
17 places like Hong Kong and Malaysia in relation to gemstones?
18 A No, sir, I don't.
19 Q I am going to ask you to look at page 3586-2, page 4.
20 Having reviewed that document, does that refresh your
21 recollection that Mr. El Hage mentioned Mohamed Ali as a
22 person involved in stones?
23 A Sir, I think you are misinterpreting my notes. It simply
24 says visited Mohamed Ali. I am not sure there is any
25 reference to actually him being involved in the stone
3126
1 business.
2 Q Then the line right next to visited Mohamed Ali, traveled
3 in stone business travels to Malaysia and Hong Kong?
4 A Sir, that's a subpoint to Abu Zubaida, I believe. That is
5 why I am saying I am not sure there is any reference to
6 Mohamed Ali and stone business.
7 Q What was the reference to Mohamed Ali?
8 A The note says, sir, visited Mohamed Ali.
9 Q Do you have any recollection presently of what that means?
10 A It probably has a reference to that individual there by
11 the last name Zubaida, since it is on the same line, but I
12 don't recall the exact circumstances, sir.
13 Q Did Mr. El Hage tell you that he did traveling, for
14 example, to Tanzania and Zambia?
15 A Yes, sir, I do recall that.
16 Q And he also told you that he traveled to Slovakia for Bin
17 Laden while he was in Kenya; isn't that right?
18 A I recall him saying he did a tractor deal, or for tractor
19 parts in Slovakia. I am not sure about the travel part.
20 That's probably in my 302, though.
21 Q That was a discussion that he had with talking to Mr. Bin
22 Laden about getting spare parts for the tractor.
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q He also told you about his bank accounts and the bank
25 accounts he used for Mr. Bin Laden; is that right?
3127
1 A He told me about a bank account in Vienna with Bin Laden
2 money, and he told me about a Kenyan bank account.
3 Q For his own money.
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q When Mr. El Hage told you that he thought that he would be
6 harassed by the Kenyan authorities as a result of his
7 involvement with the US government interrogation in Nairobi,
8 did you or Agent Coleman ask him to explain that?
9 A Sir, he didn't actually say what you just posed in your
10 question. I think he said he was afraid of being continually
11 harassed after the FBI Kenyan search or the US Kenyan search.
12 Q After that statement, did you or Agent Coleman ask him to
13 further explain that?
14 A I am sure we probably did, sir.
15 Q Do you recall what his response was to that?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q What was his response to him being concerned about the
18 Kenyans?
19 A He said he was afraid of the Kenyan government, along with
20 a couple of other governments he mentioned as well.
21 Q Did he say why he was afraid of the Kenyan government -- I
22 will withdraw that question.
23 Did you or Agent Coleman ask him why he was afraid of
24 the Kenyan government?
25 A I don't recall asking the question, sir.
3128
1 Q Do you recall Agent Coleman asking him the question?
2 A No, I don't.
3 Q Were you aware that Mr. El Hage previously told Agent
4 Coleman as to what his fear was of the Kenyan government?
5 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Sustained, sustained.
7 Q You answered on direct examination concerning Mr. El
8 Hage -- withdrawn.
9 You indicated on direct examination -- withdrawn.
10 You asked Mr. El Hage on direct examination whether
11 or not he felt threatened by anyone. Do you recall that?
12 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form.
13 THE COURT: Yes. It is somewhat garbled.
14 Q Do you recall being asked by the government did Mr. El
15 Hage indicate whether or not he felt threatened by anyone at
16 the time of your interview in August of 1998? Do you remember
17 that?
18 A Yes, sir, I do.
19 Q Mr. El Hage in fact answered that he did not think so and
20 he is not sure if there is a threat. Isn't that the words he
21 used?
22 A I think that is correct, sir.
23 Q During the time that you spoke with Mr. El Hage, did he
24 stop the interview for a prayer break?
25 A In the second interview that night, sir, I recall that he
3129
1 stopped at approximately 9:45 for a prayer break.
2 Q Did he offer to bring some reading material to you in the
3 evening concerning Islam, for you to be more aware of his
4 Islam religion?
5 A I am not sure if it was in the evening. I know at the end
6 of the first interview at his home he said he would like to
7 talk to me again about Islam.
8 Q It was clear that he appeared to you to be a devout
9 Muslim.
10 A Yes, sir.
11 MR. SCHMIDT: I have no further questions.
12 MR. RICCO: Your Honor, I have some questions.
13 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Ricco on behalf of the defendant
14 Odeh.
15 MR. RICCO: Thank you.
16 CROSS-EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. RICCO:
18 Q Good afternoon, sir.
19 A Good afternoon.
20 Q I just have a few questions I would like to ask you. I
21 think you said to us that if you had taped this interview,
22 meaning the interview with Mr. El Hage, I think you said you
23 would have been violating FBI policy.
24 A That is correct, sir.
25 Q So your testimony is that there is an FBI policy which
3130
1 prohibits or discourages you from tape recording the
2 interviews?
3 A I think that is correct, sir.
4 Q Is that a written policy?
5 A It probably is, sir, because most policies are.
6 Q And that policy was communicated to you when you were
7 trained?
8 A That is probably where I learned that, sir, yes.
9 Q When you went to Mr. El Hage's apartment you were there as
10 part of an investigation, right?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q The purpose of it was to get information directly from
13 him, correct?
14 A No, sir. In fact, my job was simply to interview April
15 Ray, his wife. I was not supposed to interview El Hage at any
16 time. He simply came home sooner than expected and I was
17 there.
18 Q And you took advantage of the opportunity to interview
19 Mr. El Hage, right?
20 A Sure, he was willing.
21 Q OK, and the purpose was to get information from him,
22 right?
23 A Sure.
24 Q Information that could be used in the course of an FBI
25 investigation; isn't that right?
3131
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And you are aware that the statements that he gives to you
3 ultimately become powerful evidence in a courtroom; isn't that
4 right?
5 A I know they could become evidence in a courtroom, sir.
6 Q Yes, right?
7 A No, sir, I am saying that they could. Not everything said
8 to us ends up in a court. That's all I am saying.
9 Q OK, and because of this potential, you wanted to make sure
10 that what he says to you is accurate; isn't that right?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Is this the first time you are testifying in a trial?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q When you were trained at the bureau, you were trained that
15 the FBI has sophisticated methods to conduct an investigation;
16 isn't that correct?
17 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, scope.
18 THE COURT: I will allow it.
19 A I am not sure what you mean by sophisticated, but sure.
20 Q I will break it down for you.
21 A OK.
22 Q The FBI has sophisticated equipment that allows it to
23 conduct an investigation at a bomb scene; isn't that correct?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Sophisticated equipment that allows it to take latent
3132
1 fingerprints off of objects; isn't that correct?
2 A That is correct, sir.
3 Q Sophisticated microscopes that are used to detect things
4 that are not even visible to the eye; isn't that correct?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q And all of that type of equipment is used by you as a
7 special agent during the course of your investigatory work;
8 isn't that correct?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And what you are telling us is that when it comes time to
11 talking to a person, the most basic form of human
12 communication, there is FBI policy that says don't use a tape
13 recorder.
14 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to the form.
15 THE COURT: Sustained to the form of the question.
16 MR. RICCO: I can do it another way.
17 Q The bottom line is what you are telling us is that with
18 all the FBI training, you would have been violating an FBI
19 policy by turning on a tape recording machine and tape
20 recording what Mr. El Hage said to you during that interview.
21 A That is my understanding of the policy, sir, yes.
22 MR. RICCO: Just a couple more questions, your Honor.
23 Q During your direct examination, I think that what you said
24 is, when you were having a conversation with Mr. El Hage about
25 Mr. Odeh, I think that you said to us that he either snickered
3133
1 or smirked.
2 A The word was snickered, sir.
3 Q Was snickered?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Was he snickering when you showed him the photograph of
6 Mr. Odeh?
7 A I didn't show him any photographs at that time, sir.
8 Q At the time the photograph was shown to him, whenever it
9 was, did he snicker?
10 A No, sir.
11 Q Can you share with us what the snicker was? Was it a
12 cynical snicker? Was it a friendly snicker? Can you share
13 with us what that was?
14 A Are you asking for my impression of what he did?
15 Q Exactly.
16 A My impression was that he was saying what an idiot about
17 Mr. Odeh.
18 Q OK. And you didn't ask him what was behind that snicker,
19 did you?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q So you don't know why he thought that Mr. Odeh was an
22 idiot.
23 A No, sir, I didn't ask him the question.
24 MR. RICCO: No further questions. Thank you very
25 much.
3134
1 THE COURT: Anything else? Redirect?
2 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
3 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
4 Q Agent Miranda, directing you to the questions by Mr.
5 Schmidt, the first attorney to examine you this morning, when
6 he asked you questions about whether or not a committed Muslim
7 would have carried out the bombings, you indicated that there
8 was something that he said that confused you. Can you explain
9 what it was that Mr. El Hage said that confused you at that
10 point.
11 A Yes, sir. There is a reference in the notes that says --
12 MR. SCHMIDT: Objection, your Honor, to reference in
13 the notes. It is memory.
14 THE COURT: Do you have an independent recollection?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
16 Q What did he say?
17 A He says I don't follow an individual, I follow the
18 guidance of the Koran, but we would follow him, I would follow
19 him if he is on the right way.
20 Q You were also asked questions about whether or not the
21 word intelligence was used in the afternoon interview during
22 which you did not take notes, and you indicated that it may
23 have been used in the evening interview and you need to check
24 your 302. Let me approach with you your report and ask you to
25 compare pages 4 with 7 and 8. The report, for identification
3135
1 purposes, is 3586-1, and I will ask you to compare the first
2 full paragraph on page 4 with the last paragraph on page 7
3 overlapping onto page 8, and see if that helps you remember if
4 intelligence was used in the afternoon or the evening
5 interview.
6 A I am done, sir.
7 Q When did the word intelligence come up? During which
8 interview, the afternoon or the evening?
9 A The evening interview, sir.
10 Q Mr. Schmidt asked you questions about the fact that you
11 used the word hatred in referring to Usama Bin Laden's view of
12 the United States in your questions. Do you recall those
13 questions?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q In any of the responses by Mr. El Hage did he ever
16 indicate to you that in way, shape or form you were inaccurate
17 in describing Mr. Bin Laden's views of America?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q Mr. Schmidt asked you a number of questions about whether
20 Mr. El Hage was cooperative and open during the course of the
21 interviews in the afternoon and evening of August 20. Do you
22 recall those questions?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q During the interview, did Mr. El Hage ever tell you that
25 in fact Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri had drowned in that ferry
3136
1 accident?
2 A No, sir.
3 MR. SCHMIDT: Objection, your Honor. It is not
4 proper redirect.
5 THE COURT: Is this related to something that was
6 raised on cross?
7 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, regarding the issue
8 whether he was cooperative and open.
9 THE COURT: Very well, I will allow it.
10 Q What did Mr. El Hage tell you during the interview about
11 whether he had ever seen Usama Bin Laden since 1994?
12 A He said he hadn't.
13 Q Did he ever indicate to you --
14 MR. SCHMIDT: Objection. This was on direct
15 examination, your Honor, it is not proper redirect.
16 THE COURT: Overruled.
17 Q Did he ever indicate to you that he had met with Usama Bin
18 Laden in Afghanistan in 1997?
19 A No, sir, that never came up.
20 Q What did Mr. El Hage tell you about whether or not he ever
21 had telephonic contact with Usama Bin Laden after Usama Bin
22 Laden left the Sudan?
23 A He said there was none.
24 Q What did he tell you about whether or not he knew whether
25 Harun had any knowledge or acquaintance with Usama Bin Laden?
3137
1 A He said he did not know.
2 Q When you asked him if he had a telephone number for Usama
3 Bin Laden, what did he say?
4 A He said he did not know.
5 Q When you asked him how he would get in touch with Usama
6 Bin Laden, what did he tell you he would have to do to contact
7 Usama Bin Laden?
8 A He said he would have to fly to Pakistan, visit the
9 Taliban embassy, tell them who he is, and then the Taliban
10 would send people out who could put him in touch.
11 Q Did he ever tell you that all he had to do was dial the
12 number 87368505331?
13 MR. SCHMIDT: Objection, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Overruled.
15 A No, he did not.
16 Q Did he ever tell you that he had passed the telephone
17 number 87368505331 to Harun?
18 A No, he did not, sir.
19 Q Did you ask him during the interview whether he knew any
20 people in Kenya who were acquainted with Usama Bin Laden?
21 A Yes, sir, I asked Kenya and Tanzania and the US as well.
22 Q What did he say about whether he knew people in those
23 countries who knew Usama Bin Laden?
24 A He said he didn't, sir.
25 Q Did he ever indicate to you that he brought a policy back
3138
1 from Afghanistan in 1997 from Usama Bin Laden to people in
2 Kenya?
3 A No, sir, he did not.
4 Q Did he ever indicate to you that he knew people who knew
5 Usama Bin Laden in California?
6 A No, sir, he did not.
7 Q Did he ever indicate to you that he knew people who knew
8 Usama Bin Laden in Florida?
9 A No, sir, he did not.
10 Q Did he ever mention the name Ali Mohamed to you?
11 A There is Mohamed Ali that I recall from my notes but I
12 don't recall Ali Mohamed.
13 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, I object. This is asking
14 if he raised this issue on his own.
15 THE COURT: Sustained.
16 Q When you asked him if he knew any people in the United
17 States who knew Usama Bin Laden, what did he tell you?
18 A He said he did not know, sir.
19 MR. FITZGERALD: No further questions.
20 MR. SCHMIDT: I have a few.
21 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. SCHMIDT:
23 Q Mr. Fitzgerald asked you lots of questions about what
24 Mr. El Hage did not answer. Related to that, were you aware
25 that he answered many of those same questions directed to him
3139
1 in 1997 in the grand jury and to Agent Coleman?
2 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.
3 THE COURT: Overruled.
4 A Sir, as I said before, I had no knowledge of what happened
5 in 1997 involving the FBI and Mr. El Hage.
6 Q Mr. El Hage, both in the morning and in the afternoon,
7 told you that --
8 THE COURT: In the afternoon and evening?
9 Q -- both in the afternoon and the evening told you that
10 Mr. Bin Laden does not have the right to kill innocent people;
11 is that correct?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q And that he, meaning Mr. El Hage, follows the book, the
14 Koran, and not an individual; is that correct?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q But if an individual is doing the right thing, that he
17 would follow the individual. Isn't that what he said?
18 A His words were is on the right way.
19 Q That's correct, right? According to what he believed the
20 right way was according to the Koran; is that right?
21 A He didn't explain that comment further, sir, but.
22 Q It was pretty clear, isn't that correct?
23 A I don't know if it's pretty clear, but he said simply he
24 could follow him if he was on the right way.
25 Q And it's pretty clear based on your conversation that
3140
1 killing innocent people was not the right way; isn't that
2 correct?
3 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.
4 THE COURT: Yes, sustained.
5 MR. SCHMIDT: Nothing further.
6 THE COURT: Anything further?
7 MR. RICCO: No, sir.
8 MR. FITZGERALD: No.
9 THE COURT: All right, we will take our luncheon
10 break and we will resume at 2:15.
11 THE CLERK: Court stands in recess until 2:15.
12 (Luncheon recess)
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3141
1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
2 2:25 p.m.
3 (In open court; jury present)
4 THE COURT: Good afternoon.
5 THE JURY: Good afternoon.
6 THE COURT: Government may call its next witness.
7 MR. FITZGERALD: The government calls Abigail Seda,
8 S-E-D-A.
9 ABIGAIL SEDA,
10 called as a witness by the government,
11 having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
12 DEPUTY CLERK: Please be seated. Please state your
13 full name.
14 THE WITNESS: Abigail Seda, SED, as in David, A.
15 DIRECT EXAMINATION
16 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, before we begin the
17 questions of the witness, I would like to display three
18 exhibits. First, Government Exhibit 4, already received in
19 evidence, at page 12; and then using the Elmo, I would like to
20 display what was previously received in evidence during the
21 testimony of Agent Coleman, Government Exhibit 305, and if we
22 can display the inside cover and then the entry page under I
23 for the record that's Government Exhibit 305. The United
24 States cover just reading the card it says Nanhar Trading,
25 Wadih El Hage, director, and then turning to the page in that
3142
1 same exhibit under "I" and focusing on the last entry on the
2 page --
3 THE COURT: The last entry on which page?
4 MR. FITZGERALD: On the page on the right. And I'll
5 read Ihab M. Ali, 4627 Calendula Dr., Orlando, FL, 32809. And
6 then also displaying on the overhead projector, Government
7 Exhibit 304, received during the Agent Coleman's testimony and
8 one page -- Government Exhibit 304, and the 13th page, and
9 reading the entry in the middle, Ihab Ali, 407-363-6981.
10 I'll hand up to Ms. Seda what was previously received
11 in evidence as Government Exhibit 451A, 451B, and I'll ask Ms.
12 Seda to read into the record the name and address listed on
13 451B.
14 A 451B, Yusr Ali, Y-U-S-R, 4627 Calendula Dr., Orlando
15 Florida, 32839.
16 Q And is there a phone number listed on those records?
17 A Yes, there is. Area code 407-363-6981.
18 Q I'll approach the witness with what has been he premarked
19 as Government Exhibit 451 for identification.
20 Ms. Seda, have you reviewed the chart marked
21 Government Exhibit 451C?
22 A Yes, I have.
23 Q What does that chart list?
24 A It lists dates and times of phone calls from the phone
25 bills.
3143
1 Q What is the number -- strike that. The calls listed there
2 are from which telephone number?
3 A From telephone number 407-363-6981.
4 Q And the calls are to which telephone number?
5 A To phone number 254820067.
6 Q And is it fair to say -- the dates listed in the left
7 column are the dates of the telephone bills?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And the times listed under local time for the telephone
10 bills?
11 A Yes.
12 Q What is the local time for this chart from this telephone
13 bill?
14 A For this chart it would be the local time for Florida.
15 Q And next to that it says "length of call"?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And what would that reflect?
18 A That would reflect the amount of minutes of the call.
19 Q And does the chart 451C accurately reflect the entries in
20 the telephone bills for calls between the number in Florida to
21 the other number as reflected on those bills?
22 A Yes.
23 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I would offer the chart,
24 Government Exhibit 451C, and also ask for the instruction.
25 THE COURT: Yes. It's received.
3144
1 (Government Exhibit 451C received in evidence)
2 THE COURT: A couple of things I want you to bear in
3 mind with respect to this chart. First of all, this is
4 information which is derived from the telephone bills and it
5 is just a summary of what appears on the telephone bills and
6 doesn't purport to be anything more.
7 With respect to the subscriber, that is an indication
8 that the telephone in question was listed under the subscriber
9 Wadih El Hage. It does not tell us who was speaking in that
10 telephone call, and with respect to that issue, we will have
11 to rely on other information.
12 MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Judge.
13 I'll approach the witness with what has been received
14 in evidence previously as Government Exhibit 621B during the
15 testimony of Agent Bush.
16 Q I would ask Ms. Seda to read into the record the name
17 listed on those bills and the phone number.
18 A The name is Wadih Elias El Hage and the phone number is
19 820067.
20 Q I'll approach you with another chart, and that chart is
21 marked 658C for identification, and I'll ask you if that is a
22 chart prepared from those telephone bills.
23 A Yes, it is.
24 Q And what does this chart reflect?
25 A It reflects the phone calls made from 254820067 to the
3145
1 phone number 4073636981.
2 Q And again, does it reflect a date and the local time of
3 those calls?
4 A Yes, it does.
5 Q For this chart what would the local time refer to?
6 A The local time would refer to Kenya, Nairobi.
7 Q And the next column says the "length of the calls," for
8 example, at one point it says 4.24, what does that refer to?
9 A Four minutes and 24 seconds.
10 Q So the number after the decimal point would refer to
11 seconds?
12 A Yes, it does.
13 Q Is this a fair and accurate chart of the phone calls
14 reflected between the number in Kenya, 254820067, to the
15 Florida number as appearing on those bills in front of you,
16 Government Exhibit 621B?
17 A Yes.
18 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I would offer Government
19 Exhibit 658C.
20 THE COURT: Yes, it's received and my same
21 instruction applies to this as well.
22 (Government Exhibit 658C received in evidence)
23 MR. FITZGERALD: I have no further questions of this
24 witness.
25 THE COURT: Anything of this witness?
3146
1 Thank you, ma'am. You may step down.
2 (Witness excused)
3 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, at this time I would
4 like to display the following exhibits: Government Exhibit --
5 first I would like to display Government Exhibit 632A and just
6 noting the English February 21, 1997, and at the bottom, "I
7 waiting for your reply," with a signature beneath. And if we
8 could now display 632AT, and just reading the translation.
9 (Government Exhibit 632AT read)
10 MR. FITZGERALD: I would next like to display
11 Government Exhibit 615A and read that into the record.
12 (Government Exhibit 615A read)
13 MR. FITZGERALD: If we could then return to the first
14 page of that same document and focus on the upper left-hand
15 corner and magnify the header. If I could read: "February
16 26, '97, 12:16 a.m." If we could do the same thing with the
17 second page: "February 26th, '97, 12:18 a.m."
18 Now if I could display Government Exhibit 632D.
19 Before I do that, can I read the entry from the chart
20 we just admitted, Government Exhibit 451C, the record of calls
21 from 4073636981 to the number 254820067 which reflects an
22 entry for February 26th, 1997 at 12:20 a.m.
23 I would now display Government Exhibit 632D and
24 632DT. At the bottom, if we could focus on that for the
25 moment, and reading aloud.
3147
1 (Government Exhibit 632D-T read)
2 MR. FITZGERALD: If we could now go to the top of the
3 page to focus on the header, upper left-hand corner,
4 indicating March 9, 1997 at 10:54 a.m., and then if I could
5 read from the exhibit just received, 451C, the chart of
6 telephone calls from 407-363-6981 to the number in Kenya,
7 254820067, and the entry is for March 9, '97, an entry of
8 10:55 a.m. for one minute to the number subscribed to by Wadih
9 El Hage, and the same March 9, '97, an entry at 10:57 for one
10 minute.
11 If we could now display Government Exhibit 435 and if
12 we could also display Government Exhibit 435T. And I'll read
13 aloud this exhibit.
14 (Government Exhibit 435-T read)
15 MR. FITZGERALD: Next Exhibit I would like to display
16 is Government Exhibit 439A, 4349A-T -- I'm sorry, 439B.
17 (Government Exhibit 439A-T read)
18 MR. FITZGERALD: Again, the exhibits being read,
19 439AT, received during the testimony of Agent Bush.
20 I would also, returning to the original, 439, and
21 focus in the upper left-hand corner of the header and enlarge
22 it and read aloud: June 28, '97, 4:55 p.m., and then read
23 from the chart just received in evidence, 451C, which reflects
24 calls from the Florida number to the Kenya number for an entry
25 June 28, '97 at 4:57 p.m. for one minute and June 28, '97 at
3148
1 4:59 p.m. for one minute.
2 And finally, I would like to display Government
3 Exhibit 624D, and just reading the English, "July 16th,"
4 "please confirm." Below, "coffee and tea?" Below, "answering
5 machine."
6 I now display 624D-T, and reading aloud.
7 (Government Exhibit 624D-T read)
8 MR. FITZGERALD: If I could also display the reverse,
9 the back side of 624D, 624D-T, and read the number written
10 there, 944076586371.
11 Now, your Honor, I would like to display some
12 photographs which were received in evidence during the
13 testimony of Agent Bush, and the first photograph, number of
14 photographs was 625, Exhibit 625B.
15 If you could queue up 625B-1 and if we could compare
16 that photograph with the photograph previously received in
17 evidence, Government Exhibit 4, page 9, and read below, Anas
18 al Liby.
19 We could now display another photograph from the
20 testimony of Agent Bush that was received at that time,
21 Government Exhibit 625B-2, and if we could display on the
22 right Government Exhibit 4, page 4, and the name below, Saif
23 al Adel.
24 If we could now display the third photograph, 625B-3,
25 and on the right if we could display Government Exhibit 104.
3149
1 And next on the right display Government Exhibit 111.
2 If we could next display the photograph, the fourth
3 photograph 625B entered on the computer as 4, and compare the
4 right, Government Exhibit 114.
5 And finally, if we could display the fifth photograph
6 in 625B on the left and Government Exhibit 120 on the right.
7 And your Honor, at this time, the government would
8 read in evidence a stipulation concerning Government Exhibit
9 151:
10 "It is hereby stipulated and agreed by and between
11 the United States of America and the defendant Wadih El Hage,
12 by and with the consent of his attorney as follows:
13 "1. That if called to testify as a witness, Tracy
14 Thompson, an official Grand Jury reporter in the Southern
15 District of New York, would testify that Government Exhibit
16 420A and 420B are true and accurate transcriptions of the
17 proceedings before a Grand Jury in the Southern District of
18 New York which took place on September 16, 1998.
19 "It is further stipulated and agreed that the
20 testimony of page 78, lines 9 and 10, on the morning
21 transcript should read, 'I saw him a month or two ago in
22 Arlington. He moved out of Arlington but was visiting.'
23 "It is further stipulated and agreed that the company
24 referred to in the testimony on page 15, lines 9, 10 and 12 of
25 the afternoon transcript should be spelled Wadi al Aqiq."
3150
1 I think the purpose is to show that the name of
2 company does not have the first name of Wadih El Hage in it so
3 there's no confusion.
4 "It is further stipulated and agreed that this
5 stipulation may be received in evidence as a government
6 exhibit at trial."
7 And your Honor, we would now propose to read the
8 transcript of Mr. El Hage's testimony before the Grand Jury on
9 September 16, 1998.
10 Mr. Francisco and Ms. Seda will read the testimony
11 and we will display the testimony on the screen. We will ask
12 Mr. Francisco and Ms. Seda to read that one sentence as
13 reflected on the stipulation.
14 THE COURT: In the stipulation, of course.
15 MR. FRANCISCO: Grand Jury Government Exhibit 428A,
16 United States Grand Jury, Southern District of New York.
17 Caption: United States of America v. John Doe. June 1996
18 Special. United States Courthouse, Foley Square, New York,
19 New York, 10007. September 16, 1998. 10:50 a.m.
20 "Appearances by Assistant United States Attorney.
21 Tracy A. Thompson, CSR, Acting Grand Jury Reporter.
22 "(Colloquy precedes.)
23 "(Time noted: 10:55 o'clock a.m.)
24 "(Witness enters room.)
25 "Wadih El Hage, called as a witness, having been
3151
1 first duly affirmed by the Foreperson of the Grand Jury,
2 testified as follows:
3 "Examination by Assistant United States Attorney:
4 "Q Good morning, Mr. El Hage.
5 "A Good morning.
6 "Q If you could state your name for the record and spell
7 your full name for the benefit of the court reporter, please.
8 "A W-A-D-I-H, last name E-L, H-A-G-E.
9 "Q Now, Mr. El Hage, I'm going to advise you of your rights.
10 "We both understand that you have testified on a
11 prior occasion before a different Grand Jury that sat because
12 of scheduling reasons.
13 "In other words, you were available to testify on a
14 day that this Grand Jury was not available.
15 "However, the rules are the same, but to be extra
16 careful, I'm going to advise you once again what the Grand
17 Jury is investigating and what your rights are.
18 "Do you understand what I'm about to do?
19 "A I do.
20 "Q For the record, my name is...and I am an assistant United
21 States attorney here in the Southern District of New York.
22 "This Grand Jury is investigating violations of Title
23 18, United States Code, Section 371, 844, 921, 1958, 1959 and
24 2332.
25 "I will tell you and the grand jurors what those
3152
1 numbers mean.
2 "Section 371 is a conspiracy statute. To violate
3 Section 371, two or more people have to agree to violate the
4 law of the United States.
5 "Section 844 relates to the bombing of buildings in
6 interstate or foreign commerce.
7 "Section 921 relates to transportation of weapons.
8 "Section 1958 relates to interstate and foreign
9 travel in aid of racketeering activity.
10 "Section 1959 relates to murders and violent crimes
11 in aid of racketeering activity.
12 "And Section 2332 and the ones that follow relate to
13 terrorism.
14 "Those are the charges that this Grand Jury generally
15 is investigating.
16 "You should also understand that the Grand Jury is
17 also investigating possible instances of perjury before this
18 Grand Jury and other Grand Juries, which would be in violation
19 of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1621 and 1623.
20 "In addition, in the course of this investigation, if
21 the Grand Jury uncovers evidence of other alleged illegal
22 activity, it has the power to charge or investigate those
23 other federal crimes.
24 "Do you understand the general nature of this
25 investigation?
3153
1 "A I do.
2 "Q Now, you should also understand that you have a
3 Constitutional right to refuse to answer any questions if a
4 truthful answer would tend to incriminate you personally.
5 "Do you understand that right?
6 "A I do.
7 "Q If you choose to answer a question, any statement that
8 you do make can be used against you in a court of law or other
9 legal proceeding.
10 "Do you understand that?
11 "A I do.
12 "Q If you decide to answer any questions, you may stop
13 answering at any time and invoke your privilege against
14 self-incrimination.
15 "Do you understand that?
16 "A I do.
17 "Q In particular, you chose to answer questions the last
18 time you appeared before the Grand Jury.
19 "You should obviously understand that you have the
20 right not to answer questions at this time if you change your
21 mind.
22 "Do you understand that?
23 "A I do.
24 "Q You have a right to consult with an attorney if you wish.
25 "Do you understand that?
3154
1 "A I do.
2 "Q And while you do not have the right to have a lawyer
3 present in the Grand Jury room, the Grand Jury would permit
4 you, if you wished, a reasonable opportunity to step outside
5 the Grand Jury room and consult with an attorney if you so
6 desired.
7 "Do you understand that?
8 "A I do.
9 "Q And you understand if you could not afford an attorney,
10 you could apply to the court to have an attorney appointed to
11 you free of charge.
12 "Do you understand that?
13 "A I do.
14 "Q For the record today, are you represented by an attorney?
15 "A No.
16 "Q Now, the testimony that you're about to give, if you
17 choose to do so, will be under oath.
18 "That means that this Grand Jury or another Grand
19 Jury has the power to indict you for perjury or false
20 statements if it finds that you have willfully testified
21 falsely as to any material or important fact.
22 "Do you understand that?
23 "A I do.
24 "Q And the maximum penalty for each count of perjury is five
25 years in prison and a $250,000 fine.
3155
1 "Do you understand that?
2 "A I do.
3 "Q And you should also understand that if you tell multiple
4 false statements, if you tell more than one lie to this Grand
5 Jury, you could be charged with more than one count and get
6 higher penalties.
7 "Do you understand that?
8 "A I do.
9 "Q You should also understand that your conduct is being
10 investigated by this Grand Jury for possible violation of
11 criminal law.
12 "Do you understand that?
13 "A Explain that to me, please.
14 "Q Okay. This Grand Jury is trying to determine whether or
15 not people violated various laws, including the laws related
16 to transportation of weapons, transportation of explosives,
17 bombings, illegal agreements and perjury.
18 "One of the people that this Grand Jury is
19 investigating is you, among others.
20 "Do you understand this?
21 "A Yes, I do.
22 "Q That means that you are what is called a target of the
23 Grand Jury investigation.
24 "A I see. Okay.
25 "Q Now, do you understand that?
3156
1 "A I do.
2 "Q Do you understand your rights as I have explained them to
3 you?
4 "A I do.
5 "Q Do you wish to answer questions?
6 "A Yes.
7 "Q Now, what I would like you to do -- you've already
8 explained your general background to this Grand Jury, what I
9 would like you to do -- to a different Grand Jury -- strike
10 that.
11 "If you can, tell us briefly where you were born.
12 "A I was born in Lebanon.
13 "Q In what year?
14 "A 1960.
15 "Q Now, what I would like to do at the very beginning is to
16 ask you questions about the recent bombings that occurred in
17 Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, in August 1998,
18 in which well more than 250 people were killed.
19 "Let me begin by asking, do you know who did the
20 bombings?
21 "A No, I don't.
22 "Q Let me show you some photographs, and I would like to ask
23 you if you recognize any of the people in these pictures. And
24 we'll take our time and go through these photographs slowly.
25 "I'll put the number of each photograph on the record
3157
1 and indicate the date that the exhibit was so marked.
2 "And if you look at these photographs, please tell me
3 whether or not you have seen the people in the photographs
4 before, and if so, where.
5 "If you have seen them in the newspaper, just say
6 I've only seen them in the newspaper.
7 "If you have seen them in person, please tell us
8 that.
9 "The first photograph is Grand Jury Exhibit 1, and
10 the exhibit is marked with a date September 10, '98.
11 "Strike that. We'll hold off on that one. Make it
12 Grand Jury Exhibit 2 from September 10, 1998. Do you know of
13 the person in that picture?
14 "A Yes, I do.
15 "Q Okay. Who is that?
16 "A I don't remember his name. I saw him in Kenya.
17 "Q You saw him in Kenya?
18 "A Yes.
19 "Q And for the record, for the benefit of the Grand Jury,
20 when did you live in Kenya?
21 "A '94 to '96.
22 "Q From 1994 through 1996?
23 "A Yeah.
24 "Q Okay. And where did you go to when you left Kenya in
25 1996?
3158
1 "A I came here into the States.
2 "Q Would that be at the same time that you first appeared
3 before the Grand Jury?
4 "A Yes.
5 "Q If the date of your testimony before the other Grand Jury
6 was September 1997, would that refresh your recollection as to
7 when it was that you left Kenya?
8 "A I left in '97.
9 "Q Okay. So from 1994 through 1997 you lived in Kenya?
10 "A Yes.
11 "Q Where did you meet the person depicted in Grand Jury
12 Exhibit 2?
13 "A In Nairobi.
14 "Q Do you know where in Nairobi?
15 "A At the mosque.
16 "Q At the mosque?
17 "What's the name of this mosque?
18 A It's the biggest mosque. I don't remember any name. It's
19 the biggest mosque in Nairobi.
20 "Q What neighborhood in Nairobi is the mosque located in?
21 "A In downtown.
22 "Q Downtown.
23 "How often did you see the fellow depicted in Grand
24 Jury Exhibit 2 in the mosque?
25 "A Almost every week, every two weeks.
3159
1 "Q Every two weeks for the three-year period you lived in
2 Kenya?
3 "A Not constantly, no.
4 "Q Did you know his name?
5 "A Yes, I knew his name.
6 "Q Okay.
7 "A I can't remember his name right now.
8 "Q Okay. Did you have any business dealings with this
9 person?
10 "A No. No business.
11 "Q Okay. We'll come back to that person in a moment.
12 "Let me show you what has been marked as Grand Jury
13 Exhibit 3, also bearing the date September 10 of 1998, and
14 tell me whether or not you recognize the person depicted in
15 Grand Jury Exhibit 3.
16 "A No.
17 "Q Okay. Let me show you Grand Jury Exhibit 4 from
18 September 10 of 1998, and I would advise you that this picture
19 has two pages.
20 "So that you're not confused, the pictures are the
21 same person, they're just different photographs. So look at
22 both pictures to see if you recognize the person in either
23 photograph with Grand Jury Exhibit 4.
24 "A No.
25 "Q Then I'll show you Grand Jury Exhibit 5 from September 10
3160
1 of 1998 and ask whether you recognize the person depicted in
2 Grand Jury Exhibit 5.
3 "A I've seen this picture on T.V.
4 "Q You've seen this picture on the T.V.?
5 "A Yes.
6 "Q How recently did you see it on the T.V.?
7 "A Two or three weeks ago.
8 "Q. Have you ever seen this person in person?
9 "A No. I have never seen him in person.
10 "Q I'm going to skip Grand Jury Exhibit 6 for the moment and
11 go to Grand Jury Exhibit 7 and ask you if you have seen the
12 person depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 7.
13 "A Yes.
14 "Q Who is the person depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 7?
15 "A His name is Harun.
16 "Q Is that spelled H-A-R-U-N?
17 "A Yes.
18 "Q Do you know what Harun's last name is?
19 "A Something like with F, Fazhl.
20 "Q Fazhl, F-A-Z-H-L?
21 "A Yes. Something like that.
22 "Q Okay. Why don't we put Harun Fazhl to the side and come
23 back to that in a moment.
24 "Let me show you Grand Jury Exhibit 8 and ask if you
25 recognize the person depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 8, which
3161
1 bears the date of September 10, 1998.
2 "A No. I don't recognize him.
3 "Q Let me show you Grand Jury Exhibit 9, which bears the
4 date September 10 of 1998.
5 "A No. I don't recognize him.
6 "Q Let me show you Grand Jury Exhibit 10, which also bears
7 the date of September 10, 1998.
8 "A Yes, I do.
9 "Q Okay. And who is the person depicted in Grand Jury
10 Exhibit 10?
11 "A I don't recall his name. He was the director for Mercy
12 International.
13 "Q And can you briefly tell the grand jury what Mercy
14 International is?
15 "And keep your voice up. It's very important that
16 everyone in the room hears you.
17 "A It's a relief agency that works in Kenya and Somalia and
18 Tanzania.
19 "Q And were you affiliated with the Mercy Relief
20 Organization in Kenya, Tanzania and Somalia?
21 "A Not really affiliated, but we had to have cooperation in
22 doing our relief work.
23 "Q And what organization were you affiliated with?
24 "A The Help Africa People.
25 "Q Help Africa People, okay.
3162
1 "And do you know the name of the person in Grand Jury
2 Exhibit 10?
3 "A This one?
4 "Q Yes?
5 "A I can't remember it now. I can't recall the name.
6 "Q And where did you first meet the person depicted in Grand
7 Jury Exhibit 10?
8 A At his office, the office in Nairobi.
9 "Q And how often did you see the person depicted in Grand
10 Jury Exhibit 10?
11 "A Whenever I go there, probably once a month or so. That's
12 why I can't recall his name very well.
13 "Q Did you ever see this person depicted in Grand Jury
14 Exhibit 10 at the mosque?
15 "A Yes.
16 "Q Did you ever see the person depicted in Grand Jury
17 Exhibit 10 anyplace outside of Kenya?
18 "A No.
19 "Q We'll come back to Grand Jury Exhibit 10 in a moment.
20 "Why don't you look at Grand Jury Exhibit 11, which
21 is also dated September 10, 1998, and which is another exhibit
22 of two pages.
23 "They are different photographs of the same person,
24 looking slightly different each time, so don't be confused.
25 "Take a look at both photographs and tell us if you
3163
1 recognize the person in Grand Jury Exhibit 11.
2 "A No, I do not recognize him.
3 "Q I show you what has been marked as Grand Jury Exhibit 12,
4 also marked September 10, 1998, and ask you if you recognize
5 that person.
6 "It's a small black and white picture.
7 "A No.
8 "Q Let me show you Grand Jury Exhibit 13, also dated
9 September 10, 1998, and ask you if you recognize that person.
10 "A No.
11 "Q I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 14, marked September 10,
12 1998, and ask you if you recognize that person.
13 "A No.
14 "Q Now, as I understand it, you recognize the person in
15 Grand Jury Exhibit 2, but you do not know his name, correct?
16 "A I can't remember his name.
17 "Q But you knew his name at one time?
18 "A Yeah.
19 "Q Grand Jury Exhibit 10, you recognize that person and you
20 cannot remember his name, correct?
21 "A I think he goes by Abu Wael.
22 "Q Would that be, A-B-U W-A-E-L?
23 "A Yes, something like that.
24 "Q And then Grand Jury Exhibit 7 you recognize as being
25 Harun Fazhl?
3164
1 "A Yes.
2 "Q Why don't we put the three people you recognize to the
3 side for the moment.
4 "I want you to go back and look at Grand Jury Exhibit
5 3 -- actually, we'll leave that alone, okay.
6 "The person Harun Fazhl, when was the last time you
7 spoke to him?
8 "A Just before I came back to the States. I think mid
9 September. Mid September. September '97.
10 "Q So if we're talking about your prior Grand Jury testimony
11 having occurred on September 24, 1997, the last time you spoke
12 to Harun Fazhl was before that date?
13 "A Right.
14 "Q Have you spoken to Harun Fazhl by telephone since that
15 time?
16 "A No.
17 "Q Have you sent mail to Harun Fazhl since that time?
18 "A No.
19 "Q Has he sent you mail since that time?
20 "A No.
21 "Q Have you sent him E-mail since September 24, 1997?
22 "A No.
23 "Q Has he sent you E-mail since September 24, 1997?
24 "A No.
25 "Q Have you exchanged messages in way, shape or form with
3165
1 Harun Fazhl since September 24, 1997?
2 "A No.
3 "Q Has anyone told you anything about Harun Fazhl since
4 September 24, 1997?
5 "A No.
6 "Q Do you have any idea where Harun Fazhl is as we speak?
7 "A Well, last I saw him in Nairobi, he was getting ready to
8 go to his country.
9 "Q And what country would his country be?
10 "A Comoros.
11 "Q Those are islands southeast of Kenya?
12 "A No, they're east of Africa. I don't know where exactly.
13 "Q Okay. Now, when Harun Fazhl was in Nairobi, how often
14 did you see him?
15 "A When he was in Nairobi?
16 "Q Yes.
17 "A Almost every day. He was working with me.
18 "Q And what organization was he working with that he worked
19 with you?
20 "A The Help Africa People.
21 "Q When did you first meet Harun Fazhl and where?
22 "A In Nairobi. I don't remember, either at the mosque or at
23 the Mercy International office.
24 "Q How did you meet him?
25 "A Well, the mosque, I was introduced to him or he was
3166
1 introduced to me.
2 "Q By whom?
3 "A What's his name? He's a Kenyan who works with Mercy
4 International.
5 "Q Do you recall his name?
6 A I'm trying to remember. He's a tall guy. Ahmed.
7 "Q Do you know where Harun Fazhl -- strike that.
8 "Did you ever meet Harun Fazhl anyplace in the world
9 outside of Kenya?
10 "A No.
11 "Q Do you know if Harun Fazhl has visited any places in the
12 world besides Kenya and the Comoros Islands?
13 "A He went to Somalia.
14 "Q In what year did he go to Somalia?
15 "A He went several times in '95 and '96.
16 "Q And what was the purpose of Harun Fazhl going to Somalia?
17 "A Relief work. He was collecting information for our
18 agency.
19 "Q And who sent him to Somalia?
20 "A I did.
21 "Q And who did he go with?
22 "A I didn't send him with anyone, but he probably went with
23 some people who directed him for where to go. I sent him
24 alone.
25 "Q Do you know if he ever went to Afghanistan?
3167
1 "A No, I don't know that.
2 "Q Do you know if he was ever trained in any camps in
3 Afghanistan or Pakistan?
4 "A No.
5 "Q Do you know if he's ever been to -- strike that.
6 "Do you know if he's ever engaged in any military
7 actions?
8 "A No.
9 "Q Do you know if he fought against any United States or
10 United Nations troops in Somalia?
11 "A No.
12 "Q No, you don't know, or you never heard of any
13 information?
14 "A I don't know any information like that.
15 "Q Did you ever hear anyone indicate that Harun Fazhl
16 trained people to fight against U.S. or U.N. troops in
17 Somalia?
18 "A No. I never heard that.
19 "Q Do you know if Harun Fazhl knew Usama Bin Laden?
20 "A Did he know him, did he hear about him?
21 "Q Did he know him personally?
22 "A. Not that I know of, no.
23 "Q Did you ever talk to Harun Fazhl about Usama Bin Laden?
24 "A We mentioned the name whenever it came up.
25 "Q In 1994 through 1997 when you were in Kenya, were you
3168
1 doing work on behalf of Usama Bin Laden?
2 "A Me?
3 "Q Yes.
4 "A No.
5 "Q Did you do any work for Usama Bin Laden while you were in
6 Kenya from 1994 through 1997?
7 "A No.
8 "Q Did you have any contact with Usama Bin Laden in the
9 period from 1994 to 1997?
10 "A. Personally?
11 "Q Yes, first personally.
12 "A No.
13 "Q You never saw him in those four years?
14 "A No.
15 "Q Did you have any telephone conversations with Usama Bin
16 Laden at any time in 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997 or 1998?
17 "A No, never.
18 "Q In those five years have you sent any mail to Usama Bin
19 Laden?
20 "A No.
21 "Q In those five years has he sent you any mail?
22 "A No.
23 "Q In those five years have you sent any E-mails to Usama
24 Bin Laden or has he sent any E-mails to you?
25 "A No.
3169
1 "Q In those five years have you sent any faxes to Usama Bin
2 Laden or has he sent any faxes to you?
3 "A No.
4 "Q In those five years have you sent any messages to Usama
5 Bin Laden in any way, shape or form?
6 "A No.
7 "Q In those five years has Usama Bin Laden sent you any
8 messages in any way, shape or form?
9 "A He sent me a message, yes, through one of his aides.
10 "Q Okay. And what year was it and who was the aide?
11 "A Probably the end of '94 or the beginning of '95.
12 "Q And who was the aide that sent you the message?
13 "A What's his name? His Saudi relative. What was his name?
14 "I can't recall his name. He was living in England.
15 "Q Would this be someone you discussed in your last Grand
16 Jury testimony?
17 "A. I don't remember.
18 "Q Does this Saudi relative have any physical handicaps?
19 "A. Yes. One of his legs.
20 "Q One of his legs is --
21 "A Amputated.
22 "Q Would that Saudi relative be from Mecca?
23 "A Yes.
24 "Q Would this be Abu Fadhl al Makkee?
25 "A Yes.
3170
1 "Q Okay. What was the message you got from Abu Fadhl al
2 Makkee in 1994 or 1995 from Usama Bin Laden?
3 "A To get some spare parts for tractors.
4 "Q And where were you to go to get the spare parts for the
5 tractors?
6 "A Slovakia.
7 "Q Slovakia.
8 "Did you go to Slovakia?
9 "A Yes.
10 "Q Did you conduct any other business in Slovakia besides
11 seeking to obtain spare parts for tractors?
12 "A No.
13 "Q Other than that message from Abu Fadhl al Makkee, did you
14 get any other communications from Usama Bin Laden from 1994 to
15 the present in any way, shape or form?
16 "A No.
17 "Q Did you have any communications from any of Usama Bin
18 Laden's representatives in any way, shape or form in those
19 five years besides the one message from Abu Fadhl al Makkee?
20 "A No.
21 "Q Are you familiar with a person by the name of Abu Hafs al
22 Masry?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q And is he one of the top lieutenants for Usama Bin Laden?
25 "A Yes.
3171
1 "Q Did you communicate in any way, shape or form, including
2 phone, in-person, mail, E-mail or messages with Abu Hafs al
3 Masry in any of the years 1994 to 1998?
4 "A He called me once or twice in Kenya.
5 "Q Okay. Why don't you tell the Grand Jury when and why he
6 called you in Kenya once or twice.
7 "A. I don't recall when, but it's probably '95 or '96.
8 "Q And what was the conversation that you had with him
9 during these one or two conversations?
10 "A They weren't any subjects to discuss. He's just an old
11 friend of mine that I've known for over 15 years, so he just
12 called to ask about me and how am I doing.
13 "Q Did he ask you to do anything on behalf of Usama Bin
14 Laden when he spoke to you?
15 "A No.
16 "Q Did he give you any messages from Usama Bin Laden when he
17 spoke to you?
18 "A No.
19 "Q Did you give any messages to pass to Usama Bin Laden when
20 you spoke to him?
21 "A No.
22 "Q Did you talk about law enforcement or efforts to arrest
23 Abu Hafs during that conversation?
24 "A Say that again.
25 "Q Did you discuss with Abu Hafs whether or not anyone in
3172
1 the world wanted to arrest him?
2 "A I don't remember. I don't recall that.
3 "Q Now, did you ever see Abu Hafs in Kenya or Tanzania at
4 any time?
5 "A No, I don't think he went there.
6 "Q Do you know a person by the name of T-A-Y-S-I-R or
7 T-A-Y-S-E-E-R, and what I'll do is, so that we're clear, we'll
8 mark it as a Grand Jury exhibit and I'll write it out in case
9 my pronunciation is not up to par.
10 "And we're way ahead in numbers, so I'm going to call
11 this -- we're jumping ahead to Grand Jury Exhibit 66 and I'll
12 put today's date on it, which is 9/16/98, and ask you if you
13 know who this name refers to, Taysir, T-A-Y-S-I-R or
14 T-A-Y-S-E-E-R?
15 "So marked.
16 "A I have known people called Tasir before. I can't recall
17 who it refers to.
18 "Q Have you ever heard of Abu Hafs referred to as Tasir?
19 "A I don't recall that.
20 "Q I'm going to add to Grand Jury Exhibit 66 another name,
21 al U-T-A-I-B-I, and I'll write it out, and ask you if you know
22 who al Utaibi is.
23 "A. The same thing. I heard this name before, but I can't
24 recall who is it.
25 "Q Let me ask you another name. Norman, N-O-R-M-A-N.
3173
1 "Do you know who Norman is? And I'll write it out
2 even though it's just -- so there's no confusion of the
3 spelling, N-O-R-M-A-N.
4 "A No.
5 "Q Okay. Have you ever been to the country of Iran?
6 "A. Iran, no.
7 "Q When you were living in Nairobi, Kenya, in 1994 -- strike
8 that.
9 "At any time did anyone ever show you files showing
10 sketches or photographs of the United States Embassy in
11 Nairobi, Kenya?
12 "A. No. Never.
13 "Q Has anyone ever shown you files containing sketches and
14 photographs of any American or Israeli buildings located in
15 Nairobi, Kenya?
16 "A No.
17 "Q Has anyone ever discussed with you the possibility of
18 conducting an attack against American or Israeli buildings
19 located in Nairobi, Kenya?
20 "A No. Never.
21 "Q Has anyone ever discussed with you the possibility of
22 conducting an attack on any American or Israeli interest in
23 Tanzania?
24 "A No.
25 "Q Has anyone ever discussed with you the possibility of an
3174
1 attack against any American interest worldwide?
2 "A No. Never.
3 "Q Do you know the organization known as al Haramain,
4 H-A-R-A-M-A-I-N?
5 "A Yes.
6 "Q And how are you familiar with al Haramain?
7 "A I don't know much about them, I just heard they're a
8 relieve agency in Nairobi, also.
9 "Q Have you ever visited the office of al Haramain?
10 "A Probably once.
11 "Q Do you know where those offices are?
12 "A In Nairobi.
13