22 March 2001
Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of New York; (212) 805-0300.
This is the transcript of Day 21 of the trial, 22 March 2001.
See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm
3069 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 ------------------------------x 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 4 v. S(7) 98 Cr. 1023 5 USAMA BIN LADEN, et al., 6 Defendants. 7 ------------------------------x 8 New York, N.Y. 9 March 22, 2001 10:50 a.m. 10 11 12 Before: 13 HON. LEONARD B. SAND, 14 District Judge 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3070 1 APPEARANCES 2 MARY JO WHITE United States Attorney for the 3 Southern District of New York BY: PATRICK FITZGERALD 4 KENNETH KARAS PAUL BUTLER 5 Assistant United States Attorneys 6 SAM A. SCHMIDT 7 JOSHUA DRATEL KRISTIAN K. LARSEN 8 Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage 9 ANTHONY L. RICCO EDWARD D. WILFORD 10 CARL J. HERMAN SANDRA A. BABCOCK 11 Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh 12 FREDRICK H. COHN DAVID P. BAUGH 13 Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali 14 JEREMY SCHNEIDER DAVID STERN 15 DAVID RUHNKE Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3083 1 (Pages 3071 to 3082 filed under seal) 2 (In open court) 3 THE COURT: Just to complete the record on another 4 matter, the marshals have given me the six dates on or after 5 February 20th when Juror 647 was late by between 15 and 30 6 minutes. These six out of 13 days and its subsequent notes. 7 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we're having difficulty 8 hearing what you are saying. I'm sorry. 9 MR. COHN: We're trusting enough not to make you 10 repeat it, your Honor, but we didn't hear it. 11 THE COURT: The witness may take the stand and the 12 jury may come in. 13 (Jury present) 14 ROBERT MIRANDA, Resumes. 15 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 16 THE JURY: Good morning. 17 THE COURT: Juror 647 is not feeling well and he has 18 been excused from further service on this jury, and that means 19 that our numbers have dwindled by two since we started, which 20 means everybody stay healthy, please. 21 Very well, we'll resume. I believe the next item of 22 business is the cross-examination of the witness Robert 23 Miranda. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 25 THE COURT: Mr. Miranda, the Court advises you that 3084 1 you are still under oath. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION 4 BY MR. SCHMIDT: 5 Q Agent Miranda, did you have any involvement in the 6 investigation of the embassy bombings prior to visiting Mr. El 7 Hage and his wife April Ray? 8 A No, I don't believe I had any involvement. 9 Q Prior to going to Mr. El Hage's residence, you said you 10 went to his residence to interview his wife; is that correct? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q Originally, did you go there to interview Mr. El Hage as 13 well? 14 A No, I did not. 15 Q Did you contact Mrs. El Hage -- did you contact April Ray 16 prior to arriving at the home? 17 A No, I did not. 18 Q Do you know of any agent that did? 19 A What I recall is that Special Agent Coleman knocked on the 20 door and introduced himself and asked for an interview. 21 Q So it's your testimony, then, that to your knowledge no 22 one contacted Ms. April Ray prior to appearing at her front 23 door; is that correct? 24 A That's what I recall, sir, yes. 25 Q Were you given responsibility to interview April Ray prior 3085 1 to going to their home? 2 A Yes, I was. 3 Q To prepare for that interview did you review Mr. El Hage's 4 prior statements to government representatives on September 5 23, 1997 and October 17th, 1997? 6 A I don't think I did, sir. I'm not familiar with what 7 you're referring to. 8 Q Well, did you review any FBI documents or reports prior to 9 conducting the interview? 10 A I recall having a short conversation with Special Agent 11 Coleman. I may have reviewed something, sir, but I don't 12 recall if I did or not. 13 Q Would you have any kind of record that would indicate what 14 you reviewed at the time? 15 A No, I don't think I do, sir. 16 Q Did Agent Coleman instruct you as to what to ask Ms. Ray? 17 A Again, I'm sure Special Agent Coleman would have said 18 something to me because I was pretty unfamiliar with El Hage 19 and April Ray and the whole matter, but as to what that was, I 20 don't recall. 21 Q It's your testimony that on August 20th at approximately 22 2:15 p.m. Agent Coleman, accompanied by you and another agent, 23 not on knocked on the residence door of Wadih El Hage and 24 April Ray and their family; is that correct? 25 A That's correct, sir. 3086 1 Q Who answered the door? 2 A April Ray. 3 Q Your testimony indicated it was Agent Coleman introduced 4 himself and the others? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Did Ms. Ray indicate that she was, that she knew Agent 7 Coleman already? 8 A Absolutely. Before she even opened the door, she knew 9 Agent Coleman's name and voice and she said she had to cover 10 up real quickly. And it was obvious from her response to 11 Mr. Coleman that she was familiar with him. 12 Q When she opened the door, was she covered with a head 13 scarf? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q Did she invite Agent Coleman, you, and the other agent 16 into her home? 17 A Yes, she did. 18 Q Where did you conduct the interview with Ms. Ray? 19 A In the living room of her apartment. 20 Q You didn't come with a warrant of any kind; is that right? 21 A That's correct, sir. 22 Q You didn't come with a subpoena of any kind; is that 23 correct? 24 A There was no subpoena, sir. We asked to speak to her and 25 she said "sure." 3087 1 Q You conducted the interview with her by asking her 2 questions and answering them; is that correct? 3 A That's correct, sir. 4 Q Did you take any notes during that interview? 5 A No, I did not, sir. 6 Q To your knowledge, did any of the other agents take any 7 notes? 8 A To my knowledge, no other agents took any notes, sir. 9 Q Was Ms. Ray a good hostess? 10 A Yes, she was polite. 11 Q Did she offer you anything to drink? 12 A Yes, she did. 13 Q Did she appear to harbor any animosity? 14 A Not that I recall, sir. 15 Q She spoke fluent English? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q In fact, she spoke in a manner that you believe that she 18 was born and raised in the United States; is that right? 19 A That's correct, sir. 20 Q Were some of the children home at that time? 21 A Yes. I remember there were some children running around 22 and the T.V. was tuned to a cartoon station and some of the 23 kids were also watching T.V. 24 Q Did you hear the children talk? 25 A I'm sure I must have. 3088 1 Q Did they talk to Ms. Ray at times? 2 A Probably, sir. 3 Q Do you recall whether they spoke in English? 4 A I recall, yes, some spoke English. As a matter of fact, I 5 also think I heard some of the older children speaking Arabic 6 later on when two of them were brought into the house after 7 being picked up. 8 Q At school? 9 A I'm sorry, sir? 10 Q School, they were picked up at school? 11 A Right, after being picked up from school and brought back 12 to the apartment, I heard a smattering of Arabic. 13 Q Did you speak any Arabic? 14 A I'm learning Arabic right now, sir. 15 Q Now, Mr. El Hage came into the house at approximately 16 3:00; is that correct? 17 A That's correct, sir. 18 Q And you were interviewing Ms. Ray for approximately 45 19 minutes; is that right? 20 A Approximately, sir, yes. 21 Q Mr. El Hage and April Ray had a very brief conversation 22 prior to Ms. Ray leaving to pick up the children; is that 23 right? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q The conversation was about who was going to pick up the 3089 1 children at school? 2 A I think it was partially about that, sir. 3 Q Did you ask to speak to Mr. El Hage? 4 A Yes. 5 Q At what point after Mr. El Hage entered the home did you 6 ask to speak to Mr. El Hage? 7 A I recall that I introduced myself and Agent Vicki Warwood, 8 who was with me, and asked if we could ask him since he had 9 lived in Kenya, if we could ask him a couple of questions 10 about recent events there, and he said yes. 11 Q Was Agent Coleman still there? 12 A No, he was not. Agent Coleman left almost immediately 13 after introducing us. 14 Q Just like your conversation with Ms. Ray, your 15 conversation with Mr. El Hage consisted of you asking 16 questions and him giving answers to your questions; is that 17 right? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q For how long did you have a conversation with Mr. El Hage? 20 A I think it was for approximately about an hour before he 21 said he had to excuse himself and return to work. 22 Q During that time you asked Mr. El Hage many questions? 23 A I don't know what your definition of "many" is, but I 24 asked him some questions, sure. 25 Q And he answered them? 3090 1 A Yes, he did. 2 Q He was cooperative? 3 A I think for the most part. 4 Q Did he -- he didn't refuse to answer any questions, did 5 he? 6 A No. By that, sir, I mean to say that -- 7 Q Did he refuse to answer any questions? 8 A No, sir. 9 Q When you wanted to ask -- when you told Mr. El Hage that 10 you wanted to ask him questions because he lived in Kenya, and 11 you wanted to ask him about recent events, you meant the 12 bombing at the embassy; is that right? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q Now, this was less than two weeks after the embassy 15 bombing, is that right, that you had this conversation with 16 Mr. El Hage? 17 A Correct, sir. 18 Q And from the time of the bombing to the time of your 19 interview with Mr. El Hage, there were many reports in the 20 media concerning the speculation that Usama Bin Laden was 21 somehow involved in the bombing; is that correct? 22 A I'm sure that's correct, sir. 23 Q In fact, prior to your conversation with Mr. El Hage, the 24 United States had already launched strikes against Usama Bin 25 Laden in Afghanistan and against a pharmaceutical company in 3091 1 the Sudan; is that right? 2 A I'm not sure of the timing of that, sir, but I know of 3 those events, yes. 4 Q You know that there were people who were already arrested 5 in relation to the embassy bombings; is that right? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q And those arrests were reported in the media; is that 8 correct? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q You asked Mr. El Hage questions about Mr. Bin Laden, 11 didn't you? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q And you asked him questions concerning why Mr. Bin Laden, 14 I think I you used the word, hated Americans; is that right? 15 A That's correct. I asked him why he had such a hatred of 16 the West, the United States, based upon his knowledge of him 17 personally. 18 Q So the word "hatred" was your word; is that correct? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q And during the ensuing conversations you had with Mr. El 21 Hage, after asking that question, Mr. El Hage, without 22 hesitation, answered what his beliefs were of Usama Bin 23 Laden's, what you call hatred of the West; is that right? 24 A As I recall, sir -- 25 Q Is that correct, sir? 3092 1 A No, that's not correct, sir. 2 Q Did he hesitate when he was talking to you concerning 3 that? 4 A No, he did not hesitate. 5 Q Did he express his own -- withdrawn. He expressed not 6 only his beliefs of Mr. Bin Laden, he also indicated to you 7 some of his own beliefs about the opposition to some American 8 policies, isn't that right? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And he was quite frank with you as to why he thought that 11 some of the American policies towards the Middle East were 12 wrong; is that correct? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q And he indicated to you that Mr. Bin Laden opposed the 15 troop presence in Saudi Arabia; is that right? 16 A Yes. 17 Q He said that true believing Muslims believed that the 18 United States should not have troops in Saudi Arabia, the land 19 of the holy place; is that right? 20 A I think his answer was that, like any true believing 21 Muslim, the U.S. should not have a presence. I think the word 22 in my 302 is "presence," sir. 23 Q Now, you weren't taking any notes during that interview; 24 is that right? 25 A That's correct, sir. 3093 1 Q And you had an interview with him for about an hour; is 2 that right? 3 A That's correct, sir. 4 Q And after your interview, you went back to your office; is 5 that right? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q And did you write any notes right after your interview 8 when you went back to the office as to what Mr. El Hage said? 9 A No, I did not, sir. 10 Q So the words that you now are quoting us in your 302 is 11 what you remember hours later or a day later of the word that 12 Mr. El Hage said without having notes, right? 13 A Sir, I said I did not prepare any notes, but I did 14 immediately start preparing my 302. 15 Q Where did you prepare the 302, in Mr. El Hage's house? 16 A No, sir, back in the office. 17 Q And that preparation as to the exact words that were used 18 were based on your memory without any notes; is that correct? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q Besides telling you about the U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia, 21 he also talked about the fact that the U.S. government was 22 unfair in its treatment of Israel and the Palestinians, isn't 23 that right? 24 A He said that the U.S. policy was unfairly supportive of 25 Israel. 3094 1 Q Is that his exact words? Is that a quote from what he 2 said or the substance of what he said? 3 A That's the substance, sir. 4 Q So when you are telling us the words that he used, you are 5 using -- you are basically stating the substance of what he 6 said and not an exact quote; is that correct? 7 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form. 8 THE COURT: Overruled. 9 You may answer. 10 A No, sir. In some instances the words he used struck me as 11 odd or significant, and so in some instances the responses are 12 using his words. In other instances, it's the substance of 13 what he said. 14 Q As you sit here today, you recognize the difference when 15 you actually quoted Mr. El Hage an hour and a half, two hours 16 after you had the conversation with him for an hour and the 17 ones that you put down the substance of his conversation, is 18 that what you are telling us now? 19 A I'm sorry, could you rephrase that, sir? 20 Q Yes. Are you telling us that now you recognize -- 21 withdrawn. 22 You had a conversation with Mr. El Hage for an hour; 23 is that right? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q He lived in Arlington; is that right? 3095 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q After the conversation, you left Arlington and you drove 3 to Dallas, where your office was; is that correct? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q How long of a drive is that? 6 A Half-hour, probably. 7 Q Then you went to park your car, went up to your office; is 8 that right? 9 A That's correct, sir. 10 Q You started typing out your report; is that right? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q First part of the report that you typed out was your 13 conversation with Ms. Ray; is that right? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q Then eventually you got to the conversation where you 16 started typing out with Mr. El Hage; is that right? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q And then you covered generally your conversation with 19 Mr. El Hage in your report; is that right? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q And you're telling us now when you reached the point where 22 you're now describing your conversation with Mr. El Hage, 23 that, without any notes at all, you were able to quote things 24 that he said earlier to you absolutely verbatim, is that what 25 you're telling us? 3096 1 A Sir, I said -- 2 Q Is that what you're telling us? 3 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, your Honor. If he may 4 answer the question. 5 THE COURT: He may answer. 6 A Sir, I said that in instances where his answers were 7 significant or he used words that struck me as significant, 8 yes. In other -- 9 Q How many? 10 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, may the witness finish 11 the answer? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 MR. SCHMIDT: I believe he did. 14 Q Did you finish your answer? 15 A Go ahead, sir. Continue. 16 Q How many occasions of what he said struck you as 17 significant or odd that you quoted Mr. El Hage verbatim in 18 your report? 19 A I'd have to read the report, sir, and look. But I recall 20 from the 302 that there were phrases -- for instance, "like 21 any true believing Muslim," that's not something that I would 22 have wrote myself. I believe those to be his exact words. 23 Q So the phrase "true believing Muslim" may be verbatim as 24 to Mr. El Hage; is that correct? 25 A That's correct, sir. 3097 1 Q But the rest of the discussion as to American troops in 2 Saudi Arabia is generally the substance but not a quote, isn't 3 that right? 4 A That's probably correct, sir. 5 Q Mr. El Hage, in substance, said that he believed American 6 policy towards Israel was unfair, isn't that right? 7 A That's correct, sir. 8 Q Now, let's use the word "unfair." Was that a verbatim 9 word or your sense of what Mr. El Hage was saying? 10 A I don't recall whether that was his word or not. 11 Q Well, when he said "the United States policy," was the 12 word "policy" verbatim or the sense of what he was talking 13 about? 14 A That was probably the sense of what he was talking about, 15 sir. 16 Q During the time that he was talking about American policy, 17 was that one answer or did you ask him some questions in 18 between? 19 A As I recall, that was more of a conversation. I'm sure 20 that there were questions in between to have him elaborate on 21 points. 22 Q And he was responsive to your questions concerning both 23 his feelings towards American policy and what he believed that 24 Mr. Bin Laden's feelings were towards American policy; is that 25 right? 3098 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q Is there any other word that you recall that struck you as 3 either odd or so very important that, in the area of American 4 foreign policy that you quoted verbatim? 5 A Are you talking about just the part about the foreign 6 policy, sir? 7 Q That's correct. 8 A At this point, no, I don't recall that there was. 9 Q Did you think it was odd that Mr. El Hage thought that the 10 U.S. policy towards Israel and the Palestinians were unfair? 11 A No. 12 Q Did you think it odd that Mr. El Hage believed that 13 American troops should not be in the Saudi Peninsula, the land 14 of the holy place? 15 A No. 16 Q Now, in fact, you said in your direct examination, after 17 the discussion of American foreign policy, that, "During that 18 answer, he often switched between using 'he' for Bin Laden and 19 'we' when describing the hatred to the U.S. and the West." 20 Do you remember testifying to that? 21 A Yes, sir, that's correct. 22 Q Now, first, that answer is incorrect because it's not the 23 question, there were numerous questions; isn't that correct? 24 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection. 25 THE COURT: Sustained. 3099 1 Rephrase the question. 2 Q You testified to us that your conversation about U.S. 3 policy was a conversation back and forth, isn't that right? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q When you testified here earlier, you said on Tuesday, you 6 said that the answer that Mr. El Hage gave to the answer, 7 right? Now, that wasn't correct, isn't that right? 8 A You're going to have to rephrase that, sir. I'm not sure 9 I understood that. 10 Q It wasn't one answer. It was an answer to many questions 11 that you asked him, following up his initial statements; isn't 12 that correct? 13 A That's correct, sir. 14 Q And so a lot of your question didn't concern Mr. Bin 15 Laden, it concerned Mr. El Hage's beliefs about the American 16 foreign policy; is that correct? 17 A No, that's not correct, sir. 18 Q Are you saying that you just asked repeatedly about 19 Mr. Bin Laden? 20 A Sir, I was interested in Mr. El Hage's understanding of 21 Mr. Bin Laden's hatred of the United States and the West. On 22 occasion, Mr. El Hage switched between the use of "he" and 23 "we," putting in some of his own feelings, apparently, into 24 the question or questions that I was asking him. 25 Q Well, let's see -- withdrawn. 3100 1 You told us the first question you asked Mr. El Hage 2 concerning Mr. Bin Laden's AntiAmericanism; is that right? 3 A I'm sorry, I told -- 4 Q You told us the first question how you introduced that 5 subject to Mr. El Hage? Remember the question that you 6 testified to? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q Could you tell us some of the other questions that you 9 asked Mr. El Hage to elicit the information that you were 10 seeking? 11 A No, I can't, sir. 12 Q Can you tell us at which point he said "I" as opposed to 13 "he" or "we" as opposed to "he"? 14 A Yes, sir, I can. 15 Q On how many occasions did he do that? 16 A At least once, sir. 17 Q So you remember one, is that your testimony? 18 A Yes, sir, I remember at least one. 19 Q Well, you say "at least one." That would leave open the 20 possibility that there were two, three or four. 21 My question is now to you, how many do you actually 22 remember? 23 A I can quote you one, sir. 24 Q Quote me one. 25 A "A lot of people want the world to live according to the 3101 1 Koran, but we don't have the resources. He has the resources 2 to make the world live according to the Koran." 3 Q So the "we," he was referring to a lot of people want? 4 A I don't know who he was referring to -- well, multiple 5 people, of course, sir. 6 Q Well, he said "a lot of people want the world to follow 7 the Koran and we..." The "we" referred to that prior portion 8 of his statement, isn't that right? 9 A I don't know, sir. I can't speak for what that "we" was. 10 Q Well, Mr. El Hage never used the word "hatred," did he? 11 A I don't recall that he did, sir. 12 Q So when you said "when describing the hatred of the United 13 States and the West," that was basically referring to the 14 first question that you asked him even to bring up the topic; 15 isn't that correct? 16 A That's probably correct, sir. 17 Q So it had nothing to do with actually his answers and 18 specifically his answers where he included "we," where he 19 included himself; isn't that correct? 20 A No, sir, I don't think that is correct. 21 Q Well, could you tell us another time where he referred to 22 as "we" relating to anything to do with the hatred of the 23 United States? 24 A I can't recall that request, sir. 25 Q There was another time in your conversation that Mr. El 3102 1 Hage used the phrase "true believing Muslims," isn't that 2 right? 3 A There was another time, sir? 4 Q Yes. Wasn't there? 5 A I recall that he used the word "committed." 6 Q One of the things that stuck in your mind in your 7 conversation earlier about American policy was when he used 8 the words "any true believing Muslim"; is that correct? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q That stuck in your mind? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q Well, did it stick in your mind another occasion where he 13 said "as a true believing Muslim"? 14 A I don't recall, sir. 15 Q Let me ask you this question, then, sir. When you asked 16 him -- withdrawn. 17 You asked him, Would you support Bin Laden if you 18 learned of his involvement in the bombing; is that right? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q Right? And do you recall him telling you that, "As a true 21 believing Muslim, I follow the guidance of the Koran and not 22 people. If Bin Laden was involved, it was a mistake, that Bin 23 Laden would be wrong in conducting such an act because there 24 is no guidance for it in the Koran and I would not support 25 him." 3103 1 A That's correct, sir. 2 Q He said that? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q And he used in that same word "as a true" -- that same 5 answer "as a true believing Muslim" as well as when he was 6 describing American troops in Saudi Arabia, isn't that right? 7 A If that's in my 302, sir, yes. 8 Q Well, do you have a memory of such an important phrase 9 presently of him saying that now? 10 A Now, two years after the interview, sir? 11 Q Yes. 12 A I recall parts of it, yes. But I don't have the entire 13 thing memorized, if that's what you're asking. 14 Q You told us how you remembered it was because it was so 15 important -- 16 A That's correct. 17 Q -- in describing the American foreign policy and Bin 18 Laden's hatred of the United States. 19 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection. 20 THE COURT: Objection sustained. Just ask a 21 question. 22 Q Well, let me ask you to take a look at your -- this 23 document marked as 3586-1 at page 4 at one of the highlighted 24 portions. 25 MR. SCHMIDT: May I approach the witness, your Honor? 3104 1 Q Please read this to yourself. 2 (Pause) 3 A I'm done, sir. 4 Q Having reviewed that document, does that give you a 5 present recollection of the statement that I asked you if 6 Mr. El Hage made? 7 A I recall the statement, yes, sir. 8 Q Was "true believing Muslim" Mr. El Hage's terms? 9 A I think that's his phrase, sir, yes. 10 Q You said also "a committed Muslim" at some point? 11 A That's correct, sir. 12 Q And what point was that? 13 A I believe that was in the interview later on in the 14 evening with Special Agent Coleman. 15 MR. SCHMIDT: May I approach the document? 16 Q After the discussion of the foreign policy of the United 17 States, you asked Mr. El Hage as to his opinion as to whether 18 Bin Laden was involved in the bombing, didn't you? 19 A Yes, sir, I asked him that question. 20 Q And Mr. El Hage told you that he didn't believe that Bin 21 Laden was responsible because it occurred in the area where 22 obviously innocent women and children would be killed. It was 23 a congested area, isn't that right? 24 A Yes, sir, that's part of the answer. 25 Q Now, you then asked him about what type of intelligence 3105 1 Bin Laden would have in Nairobi, didn't you? 2 A I don't know if I asked that specific question or that 3 simply was the answer, sir. 4 Q Isn't it a fact that the use of the word "intelligence" 5 was your word and Mr. El Hage responded to your question; 6 isn't that correct? 7 A I don't recall whether that was the use of my word or not, 8 sir. I do know that it's in my notes with an exclamation 9 point, signifying to me that it was significant. 10 Q It was significant enough to make an exclamation point. 11 Was it significant enough to put down the question and the 12 answer in a manner that explained who actually used the word 13 "intelligence"? 14 A Can you repeat that, please, sir? 15 THE COURT: No, suppose you restate it and ask a more 16 direct question. 17 Q You don't have a present recollection of who actually used 18 the word "intelligence," isn't that correct, Agent Miranda? 19 A That's correct, sir. 20 Q It wasn't significant at the time for you to put down 21 clearly who -- 22 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, your Honor. 23 Q -- used the word "intelligence"? 24 THE COURT: Sustained. Asked and answered. Let's 25 move on. (Continued on next page) 3106 1 Q In fact, in the evening interview with Mr. El Hage you 2 asked the same question over again about Mr. Bin Laden's 3 intelligence ability in Nairobi, didn't you? 4 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Overruled. 6 A I don't think you are phrasing -- I don't think that is 7 correct, sir. In the morning -- I am sorry -- in the first 8 interview taking place at his house, I think I asked the 9 question whether or not he thought Bin Laden did it. I don't 10 think that the use of the word intelligence ever came up in 11 the first part of the interview. 12 Q The first part of the interview you don't think the word 13 intelligence came up at all in the interview at his home? Is 14 that what you are saying? 15 A What I am saying, sir, is, the question was whether or not 16 he thought Bin Laden did it. That question was asked again, 17 as I recall, in the second interview. That is where the 18 answer, as I recall, involving the word intelligence came up. 19 Q Just so it is clear, are you saying that the word 20 intelligence did not come up in the afternoon? 21 A I think that is correct, sir. I think that is reflected 22 in my 302. 23 Q Did you ask Mr. El Hage to come back to your office in the 24 evening? 25 A Yes, we did. We asked him if he would be willing to talk 3107 1 to us again. 2 Q Did he voluntarily come down to your office? 3 A Yes, he did, sir. 4 Q I guess I heard you say that Officer Coleman was present 5 at the office interview? 6 A Special Agent Coleman was present for the second 7 interview, along with myself, sir. 8 Q This time you actually took notes of the interview; is 9 that right? 10 A That is correct, sir. 11 Q Did you tape record the interview with Mr. El Hage, you 12 and Agent Coleman, that evening? 13 A No, sir. 14 Q Were you aware at that time that Mr. El Hage's 15 conversations were over a year, 15, 16 months, were tape 16 recorded and intercepted prior to your conversations? 17 A It is my understanding that there was interceptions going 18 on, but I wasn't privy to those. 19 Q Are you aware that it was actually at his home, at his 20 place of business, telephone conversations were being 21 intercepted as you were speaking to him in your office? 22 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, your Honor. 401 and -- 23 THE COURT: Sustained. 24 MR. SCHMIDT: Excuse me. 25 THE COURT: Sustained. 3108 1 Q Were you aware that he was being tape recorded in other 2 locations? 3 A I understand that there was intelligence gathering going 4 on, sir, but again, I wasn't privy to that. 5 Q But you knew that he was being tape recorded. 6 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, your Honor. Same 7 objection. 8 THE COURT: Sustained. 9 Q You didn't make any efforts to tape record the 10 conversations with Mr. El Hage to have an absolute copy of 11 your conversation with him; is that right? 12 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Let's have an answer and then -- 14 A Absolutely not. 15 Q You would know that if you had a tape recorded 16 conversation of an interview with Mr. El Hage that reflected 17 what you said and what he said there would be no disputes as 18 to what was said either verbatim or as to the subject; is that 19 correct? 20 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection. 21 THE COURT: You may answer the question. 22 A Sir, I know that I would have been breaking bureau policy 23 in recording that interview. 24 Q Did you ask Mr. El Hage if you could tape record your 25 discussions? 3109 1 A No, I did not. 2 Q So you never asked him for permission? 3 A No, sir. 4 Q You wanted to go down to your office to continue talking 5 because you were in the midst of a criminal investigation; is 6 that right? You asked him to come down to your office because 7 the FBI was in the midst of a criminal investigation involving 8 the embassy bombing; is that right? 9 A Yes, sir, we wanted to talk to him further. 10 Q And you wanted to talk to him further because you believed 11 that he could provide information; is that right? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q Do you recall when Mr. El Hage used the term committed 14 Muslims in that conversation? 15 A I would have to review the 302, sir. 16 Q Is committed Muslims one of the words or phrases that 17 stuck in your mind because it was unusual or significant? 18 A Yes, sir, I thought it was significant at the time. 19 Q Did Mr. El Hage make it very clear during your 20 conversation that he believed that committed Muslims would not 21 carry out such bombings? 22 A No. Actually, sir, there is something he said that made 23 that unclear to me in fact. 24 Q Is your answer then no, he didn't say that? 25 A No, sir. I am saying no -- 3110 1 Q The question that I gave -- 2 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection. 3 THE COURT: Let him answer. 4 Q The question that I -- 5 THE COURT: Let him answer. 6 MR. SCHMIDT: He was not responsive to my question. 7 THE COURT: Please. 8 MR. FITZGERALD: Move to strike. 9 THE COURT: Stricken. Had you finished your answer? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 Q Did he say to you that he did not think committed Muslims 13 like Usama Bin Laden carried out the bombings? 14 A That was part of the answer, yes, sir. 15 Q Was part of the answer that it would be inevitable that 16 innocent women and children would be killed and injured in 17 that bombing because of the location? 18 A That's not the way it was phrased but the substance is 19 there. 20 Q Did you ask him or make a statement concerning Mr. Bin 21 Laden's right to attack innocent people? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q Do you recall what you said to Mr. El Hage? 24 A I said would you agree with the statement that if Usama 25 Bin Laden was responsible that he had no right to attack 3111 1 innocent people? 2 Q What did Mr. El Hage say? 3 A Mr. El Hage agreed with me. 4 Q Did you ask Mr. El Hage why he believed Mr. Bin Laden 5 hired him? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q Did Mr. El Hage without hesitation tell you that part of 8 the reason was that he had an American passport and can travel 9 around the world freely? 10 A And buy things for him, yes, sir. 11 Q Were you aware at that time that Mr. Bin Laden was in the 12 Sudan? 13 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form. 14 MR. SCHMIDT: I will rephrase that question. 15 Q Did you follow up that question in any way? 16 A I am not sure I understand. Did I follow up what 17 question? 18 Q Did you ask him why it would be important for Mr. Bin 19 Laden to have somebody able to travel around? 20 A No, I don't believe I followed up on that, sir. 21 Q You didn't ask him, were you aware that it was difficult 22 for people with Sudanese or passports of some Middle Eastern 23 countries to travel around the world at that time? 24 A No, I didn't follow up on that, sir. 25 Q You told us that you showed him some photographs; is that 3112 1 correct? 2 A That is correct, sir. 3 Q Could you pronounce the word spelled H-O-U-E-D? 4 A Hoday. 5 Q Is that the name of the person that you asked Mr. El Hage 6 if he knew? 7 A I think it was pronounced Odeh when I said it to him 8 originally. 9 Q Did you spell it "Hoday" in your report? 10 A I believe I had that in parentheses, yes, sir. 11 Q I am going to ask you to look at 3586-1 at page 5, where I 12 made brackets. Please read it to yourself. May I approach 13 the witness, your Honor? 14 A Sure. 15 Q Now do you recall which of the words that you had in 16 brackets? 17 A Yes, sir. It says on the report Odeh is in brackets in 18 that instance. 19 Q And the word that is not in brackets is "Hoday"; isn't 20 that right? 21 A That is correct, sir. 22 Q You also indicated that when you showed him the 23 photographs -- withdrawn. 24 Do you know when those photographs were taken? 25 A No, I don't, sir. 3113 1 Q Were you aware that the individual in the photographs had 2 a substantial beard prior to his arrest? 3 A I was not familiar with that individual, sir, prior to the 4 interview. 5 Q Did you talk to Mr. El Hage, ask Mr. El Hage how he ended 6 up in Nairobi? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q Did he tell you when he came to Nairobi? 9 A Approximately, sir, yes. 10 Q Was that May of 1994? 11 A I think that is correct, sir. 12 Q Would you like to review your notes to be sure? 13 A Sure. 14 Q I show you 3586-2. 15 Does that refresh your recollection? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q When did he tell you he came to Nairobi? 18 A It says up to '94, May. 19 Q Up to '94 May worked for Bin Laden in Khartoum, is that 20 correct? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q Did Mr. El Hage explain to you that his wife was unhappy 23 in Khartoum and he wanted to leave Khartoum? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q And that he received an opportunity to open an office of a 3114 1 nongovernmental organization in Africa? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q Did he tell you who gave him that opportunity? 4 A He didn't identify individuals in particular. He said 5 when he traveled to Germany and visited the Islamic Center, 6 that the opportunity arose. 7 Q Did he explain to you that he went to Nairobi because that 8 was the most stable country in East Africa, if not Africa? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q Did he openly tell you that he knew a person named Harun? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q And he told you that in fact he was Harun's boss when he 13 opened the nongovernmental agency Help Africa People; isn't 14 that right? 15 A I don't think that is correct, sir. He didn't say when he 16 opened it. He said that he was his boss, that's correct. But 17 he said that he previously worked for another nongovernmental 18 organization prior to coming to the Help Africa People. 19 Q And it was clear in that conversation that Harun worked 20 for this other agency and then came to work for his agency. 21 A That's correct, sir. 22 Q And he told you that he sent Harun to Somalia? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And that one of the reasons that he hired Harun was 25 because he was able to go to Somalia and help the relief 3115 1 agencies in Somalia. 2 A I don't think he said he hired him for that reason. He 3 previous employer, his being Harun's, Sheikh Adam, or Ahmed 4 Tawhil, gave that piece of advice to El Hage, saying that 5 Harun was good at getting information on Somalia. 6 Q In the course of the conversation, it was clear to you 7 that that was a factor in hiring Harun? 8 A I am not sure it was a factor or not, sir. I didn't think 9 of it at the time. 10 Q Did Mr. El Hage tell you without hesitation that Harun 11 lived at times with his family in Nairobi? Let me rephrase 12 that. 13 Did Mr. El Hage tell you that Mr. Harun lived with 14 Mr. El Hage's family in Nairobi at times? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q He also told you that Mr. Harun's wife lived in Mombasa; 17 is that right? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q And that Harun traveled to Mombasa to spend time with his 20 wife as well; is that right? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q And he said to you, Mr. El Hage, that he visited Mr. Harun 23 in Mombasa, right? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q He also explained to you that when he was traveling, when 3116 1 Mr. El Hage was traveling, that either Harun and his wife 2 would come up and stay with his wife, April Ray and the 3 family, or sometimes another person and his wife would come up 4 and stay there; is that right? 5 A I recall him saying that, yes, he would bring up his wife 6 from Mombasa and they would stay at the El Hage residence 7 while Mr. El Hage was absent. 8 Q Were you aware of any reports about fraudulent passports 9 or visas in Kenya? 10 A No, sir, I don't recall that. 11 Q So you didn't ask Mr. El Hage about fraudulent passports 12 or visas, right? 13 A No, sir, not that I recall. 14 Q Mr. El Hage told you that Harun was trying to get Kenyan 15 papers for himself, right? 16 A That is correct, sir. 17 Q He didn't make a secret of that, he didn't try to hide 18 that, he openly told you that, right? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q He also told you that Harun told him in September of 1997 21 that his mother, being Harun's mother, was ill in the Comoros 22 Islands, and that he, Harun, was going to be going there to 23 see his mother; is that correct? 24 A That is correct, sir. 25 Q And he said that was the last time that he saw Harun; is 3117 1 that right? 2 A That's correct, sir. 3 Q He also told you that Harun took computer lessons, 4 computer courses; is that right? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q And was good at the computer. 7 A I don't know if he said he was good at the computer. 8 Q He also said that he sent Harun to the scene of the 9 ferryboat accident; is that right? 10 A Yes, sir. 11 Q Did you ever ask Mr. El Hage if he went to Somalia? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q Did Mr. El Hage tell you that he went to the area of 14 Somalia around Mandera? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q Do you know where Mandera is? 17 A No, I don't, sir. 18 Q There was also some conversation concerning a place called 19 Luq. 20 A Is there a question with that, sir? 21 Q Did you have a conversation with Mr. El Hage at all 22 concerning a place called Luq? 23 A Yes, sir, that came up. 24 Q Did that come up by a question of yours or did Mr. El Hage 25 raise that, or don't you remember? 3118 1 A No, sir, that would have been a question of Special Agent 2 Coleman. I was not familiar with Luq. 3 Q The question about Somalia probably came from Agent 4 Coleman as well. 5 A The majority of the questions at the second interview in 6 the FBI office did, sir. 7 Q Are you aware of what documents or FBI reports that Agent 8 Coleman was familiar with? 9 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection. 10 THE COURT: Was he aware of what Agent Coleman -- 11 yes, sustained. 12 Q Agent Coleman took on the lion's share of the questioning 13 of Mr. El Hage because he knew more about the case than you 14 did, right? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q In fact, he was one of the case agents, wasn't he? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q And as a case agent he would be familiar with all of the 19 prior 302's prepared -- excuse me -- all the prior reports 20 prepared by the FBI in the case; is that correct? 21 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Sustained. 23 Q As a case agent, a case agent would be aware of all the 24 prior FBI reports on the case, wouldn't he? 25 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection. 3119 1 THE COURT: Sustained. 2 Q Have you ever been a case agent on a case? 3 A Yes, sir, I have. 4 Q On the case that you were a case agent, you familiarize 5 yourself with all the reports on a case? 6 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection. Same objection. 7 THE COURT: You can ask him what he understands the 8 role of a case agent to be. 9 Q Is it the role of a case agent to be aware of all of the 10 information gathered by the agency about a case? 11 A Being a case agent presently, sir, I don't know that the 12 word all is good. You try to, obviously, absorb as much as 13 you can. 14 Q If you are going to be interviewing a witness as a case 15 agent, you would certainly absorb or read all the reports 16 concerning that witness, wouldn't you? 17 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection. 18 THE COURT: Several objections. One is the witness's 19 objection to all, and I sustain the objection on that ground. 20 In any event, I think we should move on. 21 Q Do you recall Mr. El Hage saying that he was aware that 22 the town of Luq was attacked by Ethiopians? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And he was aware that the Mercy International had a 25 presence in Luq, orphanages, a school and a hospital? 3120 1 A No, I don't recall that, sir. I thought he said the Mercy 2 International office in Mandera, but I would have to review 3 the notes to be clear on that. 4 Q I didn't say where the office was but they had a presence. 5 A I wasn't aware that they had a presence there, sir. 6 Q Who asked the question concerning Ahmed Tawhil? Was that 7 Agent Coleman? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q Did Mr. El Hage tell you and Agent Coleman what Ahmed 10 Tawhil's full name was? 11 A I think he did tell us the full name. 12 Q Do you recall what the full name is of Mr. Ahmed Tawhil? 13 A It's my understanding that he is Ahmed Sheikh Adam. 14 Q Adam or Adan? With an M or N at the end? 15 A M as in Michael. 16 Q Did Mr. El Hage tell you and Agent Coleman that he in fact 17 introduced Ahmed Tawhil to Madani al Tayyib? 18 A I am not clear on that point, sir. I would have to review 19 the 302. 20 Q Do you recall if Agent Coleman asked, or you asked a 21 question concerning Madani al Tayyib? 22 A I am sure it wasn't me, sir, because I wasn't familiar 23 with that individual. 24 MR. SCHMIDT: If I may, your Honor, approach the 25 witness with 3586-2, page 4. 3121 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 Q Does that refresh your recollection? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q Did El Hage tell you and Agent Coleman that he in fact 5 introduced Ahmed Tawhil to Madani al Tayyib? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q Did he tell you that he had a conversation in August with 8 Ahmed Tawhil concerning doing deals for tires and old cars as 9 well as his personal -- 10 A Sir, I am not clear that that was 1994. 11 Q Excuse me. You say you don't know that it was 1994? 12 A You are saying if there was a conversation in August 1994? 13 Q No, August 1998. 14 A Yes, sir, he did have a conversation at that time but not 15 in 1994, to my knowledge. 16 Q Either you misunderstood or if I misspoke, I apologize. 17 You are talking about a conversation recently. 18 A Sir, it was approximately a month prior to the interview. 19 Q And that was about both personal things because he knew 20 Ahmed Tawhil, and trying to do a deal for tires and cars; is 21 that correct? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q And you were aware where Mr. El Hage worked at the time of 24 the interview, weren't you? 25 A Yes, sir. 3122 1 Q Where was that? 2 A Lone Star Tires, sir. 3 Q It's a tire store, right? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q Sells tires. 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q Mr. El Hage also told you that shortly or almost 8 immediately after the bombing he tried to reach his friend 9 Salim Chichi, who was in the Criminal Investigation Division 10 in Nairobi; isn't it correct? 11 A No, sir, he just used the word Salim. I am not familiar 12 with that last name you just used. 13 Q But he told you that Salim was a member of the Criminal 14 Investigation Division of the Kenyan police department. 15 A That is correct, sir. 16 Q And he was concerned because he worked in a building near 17 the embassy. 18 A Yes, sir, a bank. 19 Q And that Mr. Salim was a good Muslim that he knew from 20 Nairobi. 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q Did either you or Agent Coleman ask Mr. El Hage about 23 secret meetings that Mr. Bin Laden had while he was in 24 Khartoum? 25 A No, sir, I don't think we asked that question. I know 3123 1 there was an answer involving aspects of what you just said. 2 I don't know how that was raised, though. 3 Q At some point Mr. El Hage explained to you that he was 4 aware of the existence if not the substance of secret meetings 5 that Mr. Bin Laden had with other people; is that right? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q But you don't recall what question elicited that 8 information; is that what your testimony is? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q When he explained why he understood -- he explained that 11 to you and Agent Coleman; is that right? 12 A That is correct, sir. 13 Q Are you aware of Mr. El Hage's explanation of his 14 awareness of secret meetings back in an interview that he had 15 with your office in 1997? 16 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection. 17 THE COURT: Sustained as to the form. It is not a 18 clear question. 19 Q Were you aware that Agent Coleman had a conversation with 20 Mr. El Hage in 1997 about secret meetings? 21 A Sir, I wasn't at the Dallas division in 1997, nor am I 22 aware of the substance of any discussions he had with him. 23 Q So Agent Coleman didn't explain any of that to you? 24 A No, sir. 25 Q After Mr. El Hage indicated his awareness of the existence 3124 1 of secret meetings but not the substance of it, did you or 2 Agent Coleman ask him a followup question? 3 A No, sir. 4 Q So when you said he did not provide any further details 5 concerning it, it is because you didn't ask him any further 6 questions; is that right? 7 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form. 8 THE COURT: You may answer. 9 A That is correct, sir. 10 Q You also discussed with Mr. El Hage about gemstones; is 11 that right? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q Do you recall how that was raised? 14 A That was part of his answer in response to the question 15 about why he returned to the United States, and he first began 16 by saying I originally wanted to go back to Pakistan to do a 17 gemstone business. That's how that evolved. 18 Q He was talking about trying to do a gemstone deal with the 19 Taliban, the rulers of most of Afghanistan at that time; is 20 that correct? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q And he was hoping that that would be a very substantial 23 deal and he would be able to make a substantial amount of 24 money in the gemstone business with the Taliban; is that 25 right? 3125 1 A I am not sure, sir, how substantial it was. I don't 2 recall details about the money involved or how big the deal 3 was. 4 Q Did he talk to you about how the stones were going to be 5 shipped to Hong Kong and China? 6 A Yes, he talked about that. 7 Q Did he talk about his partner in that, Mohamed Ali? 8 A I don't recall his name being used in that context, sir. 9 Q Do you recall him using the name Mohamed Ali as a person 10 involved in the gemstone business? 11 A I am sorry. Could you rephrase that. Did you say would 12 you or could you recall? 13 Q Do you recall Mr. El Hage mentioning the name Mohamed Ali 14 as a person who was involved in the gemstone business? 15 A I don't, sir. 16 Q Do you recall him talking about Mohamed Ali traveling to 17 places like Hong Kong and Malaysia in relation to gemstones? 18 A No, sir, I don't. 19 Q I am going to ask you to look at page 3586-2, page 4. 20 Having reviewed that document, does that refresh your 21 recollection that Mr. El Hage mentioned Mohamed Ali as a 22 person involved in stones? 23 A Sir, I think you are misinterpreting my notes. It simply 24 says visited Mohamed Ali. I am not sure there is any 25 reference to actually him being involved in the stone 3126 1 business. 2 Q Then the line right next to visited Mohamed Ali, traveled 3 in stone business travels to Malaysia and Hong Kong? 4 A Sir, that's a subpoint to Abu Zubaida, I believe. That is 5 why I am saying I am not sure there is any reference to 6 Mohamed Ali and stone business. 7 Q What was the reference to Mohamed Ali? 8 A The note says, sir, visited Mohamed Ali. 9 Q Do you have any recollection presently of what that means? 10 A It probably has a reference to that individual there by 11 the last name Zubaida, since it is on the same line, but I 12 don't recall the exact circumstances, sir. 13 Q Did Mr. El Hage tell you that he did traveling, for 14 example, to Tanzania and Zambia? 15 A Yes, sir, I do recall that. 16 Q And he also told you that he traveled to Slovakia for Bin 17 Laden while he was in Kenya; isn't that right? 18 A I recall him saying he did a tractor deal, or for tractor 19 parts in Slovakia. I am not sure about the travel part. 20 That's probably in my 302, though. 21 Q That was a discussion that he had with talking to Mr. Bin 22 Laden about getting spare parts for the tractor. 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q He also told you about his bank accounts and the bank 25 accounts he used for Mr. Bin Laden; is that right? 3127 1 A He told me about a bank account in Vienna with Bin Laden 2 money, and he told me about a Kenyan bank account. 3 Q For his own money. 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q When Mr. El Hage told you that he thought that he would be 6 harassed by the Kenyan authorities as a result of his 7 involvement with the US government interrogation in Nairobi, 8 did you or Agent Coleman ask him to explain that? 9 A Sir, he didn't actually say what you just posed in your 10 question. I think he said he was afraid of being continually 11 harassed after the FBI Kenyan search or the US Kenyan search. 12 Q After that statement, did you or Agent Coleman ask him to 13 further explain that? 14 A I am sure we probably did, sir. 15 Q Do you recall what his response was to that? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q What was his response to him being concerned about the 18 Kenyans? 19 A He said he was afraid of the Kenyan government, along with 20 a couple of other governments he mentioned as well. 21 Q Did he say why he was afraid of the Kenyan government -- I 22 will withdraw that question. 23 Did you or Agent Coleman ask him why he was afraid of 24 the Kenyan government? 25 A I don't recall asking the question, sir. 3128 1 Q Do you recall Agent Coleman asking him the question? 2 A No, I don't. 3 Q Were you aware that Mr. El Hage previously told Agent 4 Coleman as to what his fear was of the Kenyan government? 5 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Sustained, sustained. 7 Q You answered on direct examination concerning Mr. El 8 Hage -- withdrawn. 9 You indicated on direct examination -- withdrawn. 10 You asked Mr. El Hage on direct examination whether 11 or not he felt threatened by anyone. Do you recall that? 12 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form. 13 THE COURT: Yes. It is somewhat garbled. 14 Q Do you recall being asked by the government did Mr. El 15 Hage indicate whether or not he felt threatened by anyone at 16 the time of your interview in August of 1998? Do you remember 17 that? 18 A Yes, sir, I do. 19 Q Mr. El Hage in fact answered that he did not think so and 20 he is not sure if there is a threat. Isn't that the words he 21 used? 22 A I think that is correct, sir. 23 Q During the time that you spoke with Mr. El Hage, did he 24 stop the interview for a prayer break? 25 A In the second interview that night, sir, I recall that he 3129 1 stopped at approximately 9:45 for a prayer break. 2 Q Did he offer to bring some reading material to you in the 3 evening concerning Islam, for you to be more aware of his 4 Islam religion? 5 A I am not sure if it was in the evening. I know at the end 6 of the first interview at his home he said he would like to 7 talk to me again about Islam. 8 Q It was clear that he appeared to you to be a devout 9 Muslim. 10 A Yes, sir. 11 MR. SCHMIDT: I have no further questions. 12 MR. RICCO: Your Honor, I have some questions. 13 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Ricco on behalf of the defendant 14 Odeh. 15 MR. RICCO: Thank you. 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. RICCO: 18 Q Good afternoon, sir. 19 A Good afternoon. 20 Q I just have a few questions I would like to ask you. I 21 think you said to us that if you had taped this interview, 22 meaning the interview with Mr. El Hage, I think you said you 23 would have been violating FBI policy. 24 A That is correct, sir. 25 Q So your testimony is that there is an FBI policy which 3130 1 prohibits or discourages you from tape recording the 2 interviews? 3 A I think that is correct, sir. 4 Q Is that a written policy? 5 A It probably is, sir, because most policies are. 6 Q And that policy was communicated to you when you were 7 trained? 8 A That is probably where I learned that, sir, yes. 9 Q When you went to Mr. El Hage's apartment you were there as 10 part of an investigation, right? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q The purpose of it was to get information directly from 13 him, correct? 14 A No, sir. In fact, my job was simply to interview April 15 Ray, his wife. I was not supposed to interview El Hage at any 16 time. He simply came home sooner than expected and I was 17 there. 18 Q And you took advantage of the opportunity to interview 19 Mr. El Hage, right? 20 A Sure, he was willing. 21 Q OK, and the purpose was to get information from him, 22 right? 23 A Sure. 24 Q Information that could be used in the course of an FBI 25 investigation; isn't that right? 3131 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q And you are aware that the statements that he gives to you 3 ultimately become powerful evidence in a courtroom; isn't that 4 right? 5 A I know they could become evidence in a courtroom, sir. 6 Q Yes, right? 7 A No, sir, I am saying that they could. Not everything said 8 to us ends up in a court. That's all I am saying. 9 Q OK, and because of this potential, you wanted to make sure 10 that what he says to you is accurate; isn't that right? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q Is this the first time you are testifying in a trial? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q When you were trained at the bureau, you were trained that 15 the FBI has sophisticated methods to conduct an investigation; 16 isn't that correct? 17 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection, scope. 18 THE COURT: I will allow it. 19 A I am not sure what you mean by sophisticated, but sure. 20 Q I will break it down for you. 21 A OK. 22 Q The FBI has sophisticated equipment that allows it to 23 conduct an investigation at a bomb scene; isn't that correct? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q Sophisticated equipment that allows it to take latent 3132 1 fingerprints off of objects; isn't that correct? 2 A That is correct, sir. 3 Q Sophisticated microscopes that are used to detect things 4 that are not even visible to the eye; isn't that correct? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q And all of that type of equipment is used by you as a 7 special agent during the course of your investigatory work; 8 isn't that correct? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q And what you are telling us is that when it comes time to 11 talking to a person, the most basic form of human 12 communication, there is FBI policy that says don't use a tape 13 recorder. 14 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to the form. 15 THE COURT: Sustained to the form of the question. 16 MR. RICCO: I can do it another way. 17 Q The bottom line is what you are telling us is that with 18 all the FBI training, you would have been violating an FBI 19 policy by turning on a tape recording machine and tape 20 recording what Mr. El Hage said to you during that interview. 21 A That is my understanding of the policy, sir, yes. 22 MR. RICCO: Just a couple more questions, your Honor. 23 Q During your direct examination, I think that what you said 24 is, when you were having a conversation with Mr. El Hage about 25 Mr. Odeh, I think that you said to us that he either snickered 3133 1 or smirked. 2 A The word was snickered, sir. 3 Q Was snickered? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q Was he snickering when you showed him the photograph of 6 Mr. Odeh? 7 A I didn't show him any photographs at that time, sir. 8 Q At the time the photograph was shown to him, whenever it 9 was, did he snicker? 10 A No, sir. 11 Q Can you share with us what the snicker was? Was it a 12 cynical snicker? Was it a friendly snicker? Can you share 13 with us what that was? 14 A Are you asking for my impression of what he did? 15 Q Exactly. 16 A My impression was that he was saying what an idiot about 17 Mr. Odeh. 18 Q OK. And you didn't ask him what was behind that snicker, 19 did you? 20 A No, sir. 21 Q So you don't know why he thought that Mr. Odeh was an 22 idiot. 23 A No, sir, I didn't ask him the question. 24 MR. RICCO: No further questions. Thank you very 25 much. 3134 1 THE COURT: Anything else? Redirect? 2 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. FITZGERALD: 4 Q Agent Miranda, directing you to the questions by Mr. 5 Schmidt, the first attorney to examine you this morning, when 6 he asked you questions about whether or not a committed Muslim 7 would have carried out the bombings, you indicated that there 8 was something that he said that confused you. Can you explain 9 what it was that Mr. El Hage said that confused you at that 10 point. 11 A Yes, sir. There is a reference in the notes that says -- 12 MR. SCHMIDT: Objection, your Honor, to reference in 13 the notes. It is memory. 14 THE COURT: Do you have an independent recollection? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 16 Q What did he say? 17 A He says I don't follow an individual, I follow the 18 guidance of the Koran, but we would follow him, I would follow 19 him if he is on the right way. 20 Q You were also asked questions about whether or not the 21 word intelligence was used in the afternoon interview during 22 which you did not take notes, and you indicated that it may 23 have been used in the evening interview and you need to check 24 your 302. Let me approach with you your report and ask you to 25 compare pages 4 with 7 and 8. The report, for identification 3135 1 purposes, is 3586-1, and I will ask you to compare the first 2 full paragraph on page 4 with the last paragraph on page 7 3 overlapping onto page 8, and see if that helps you remember if 4 intelligence was used in the afternoon or the evening 5 interview. 6 A I am done, sir. 7 Q When did the word intelligence come up? During which 8 interview, the afternoon or the evening? 9 A The evening interview, sir. 10 Q Mr. Schmidt asked you questions about the fact that you 11 used the word hatred in referring to Usama Bin Laden's view of 12 the United States in your questions. Do you recall those 13 questions? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q In any of the responses by Mr. El Hage did he ever 16 indicate to you that in way, shape or form you were inaccurate 17 in describing Mr. Bin Laden's views of America? 18 A No, sir. 19 Q Mr. Schmidt asked you a number of questions about whether 20 Mr. El Hage was cooperative and open during the course of the 21 interviews in the afternoon and evening of August 20. Do you 22 recall those questions? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q During the interview, did Mr. El Hage ever tell you that 25 in fact Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri had drowned in that ferry 3136 1 accident? 2 A No, sir. 3 MR. SCHMIDT: Objection, your Honor. It is not 4 proper redirect. 5 THE COURT: Is this related to something that was 6 raised on cross? 7 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, regarding the issue 8 whether he was cooperative and open. 9 THE COURT: Very well, I will allow it. 10 Q What did Mr. El Hage tell you during the interview about 11 whether he had ever seen Usama Bin Laden since 1994? 12 A He said he hadn't. 13 Q Did he ever indicate to you -- 14 MR. SCHMIDT: Objection. This was on direct 15 examination, your Honor, it is not proper redirect. 16 THE COURT: Overruled. 17 Q Did he ever indicate to you that he had met with Usama Bin 18 Laden in Afghanistan in 1997? 19 A No, sir, that never came up. 20 Q What did Mr. El Hage tell you about whether or not he ever 21 had telephonic contact with Usama Bin Laden after Usama Bin 22 Laden left the Sudan? 23 A He said there was none. 24 Q What did he tell you about whether or not he knew whether 25 Harun had any knowledge or acquaintance with Usama Bin Laden? 3137 1 A He said he did not know. 2 Q When you asked him if he had a telephone number for Usama 3 Bin Laden, what did he say? 4 A He said he did not know. 5 Q When you asked him how he would get in touch with Usama 6 Bin Laden, what did he tell you he would have to do to contact 7 Usama Bin Laden? 8 A He said he would have to fly to Pakistan, visit the 9 Taliban embassy, tell them who he is, and then the Taliban 10 would send people out who could put him in touch. 11 Q Did he ever tell you that all he had to do was dial the 12 number 87368505331? 13 MR. SCHMIDT: Objection, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Overruled. 15 A No, he did not. 16 Q Did he ever tell you that he had passed the telephone 17 number 87368505331 to Harun? 18 A No, he did not, sir. 19 Q Did you ask him during the interview whether he knew any 20 people in Kenya who were acquainted with Usama Bin Laden? 21 A Yes, sir, I asked Kenya and Tanzania and the US as well. 22 Q What did he say about whether he knew people in those 23 countries who knew Usama Bin Laden? 24 A He said he didn't, sir. 25 Q Did he ever indicate to you that he brought a policy back 3138 1 from Afghanistan in 1997 from Usama Bin Laden to people in 2 Kenya? 3 A No, sir, he did not. 4 Q Did he ever indicate to you that he knew people who knew 5 Usama Bin Laden in California? 6 A No, sir, he did not. 7 Q Did he ever indicate to you that he knew people who knew 8 Usama Bin Laden in Florida? 9 A No, sir, he did not. 10 Q Did he ever mention the name Ali Mohamed to you? 11 A There is Mohamed Ali that I recall from my notes but I 12 don't recall Ali Mohamed. 13 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, I object. This is asking 14 if he raised this issue on his own. 15 THE COURT: Sustained. 16 Q When you asked him if he knew any people in the United 17 States who knew Usama Bin Laden, what did he tell you? 18 A He said he did not know, sir. 19 MR. FITZGERALD: No further questions. 20 MR. SCHMIDT: I have a few. 21 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. SCHMIDT: 23 Q Mr. Fitzgerald asked you lots of questions about what 24 Mr. El Hage did not answer. Related to that, were you aware 25 that he answered many of those same questions directed to him 3139 1 in 1997 in the grand jury and to Agent Coleman? 2 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection. 3 THE COURT: Overruled. 4 A Sir, as I said before, I had no knowledge of what happened 5 in 1997 involving the FBI and Mr. El Hage. 6 Q Mr. El Hage, both in the morning and in the afternoon, 7 told you that -- 8 THE COURT: In the afternoon and evening? 9 Q -- both in the afternoon and the evening told you that 10 Mr. Bin Laden does not have the right to kill innocent people; 11 is that correct? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q And that he, meaning Mr. El Hage, follows the book, the 14 Koran, and not an individual; is that correct? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q But if an individual is doing the right thing, that he 17 would follow the individual. Isn't that what he said? 18 A His words were is on the right way. 19 Q That's correct, right? According to what he believed the 20 right way was according to the Koran; is that right? 21 A He didn't explain that comment further, sir, but. 22 Q It was pretty clear, isn't that correct? 23 A I don't know if it's pretty clear, but he said simply he 24 could follow him if he was on the right way. 25 Q And it's pretty clear based on your conversation that 3140 1 killing innocent people was not the right way; isn't that 2 correct? 3 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection. 4 THE COURT: Yes, sustained. 5 MR. SCHMIDT: Nothing further. 6 THE COURT: Anything further? 7 MR. RICCO: No, sir. 8 MR. FITZGERALD: No. 9 THE COURT: All right, we will take our luncheon 10 break and we will resume at 2:15. 11 THE CLERK: Court stands in recess until 2:15. 12 (Luncheon recess) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3141 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 2:25 p.m. 3 (In open court; jury present) 4 THE COURT: Good afternoon. 5 THE JURY: Good afternoon. 6 THE COURT: Government may call its next witness. 7 MR. FITZGERALD: The government calls Abigail Seda, 8 S-E-D-A. 9 ABIGAIL SEDA, 10 called as a witness by the government, 11 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 12 DEPUTY CLERK: Please be seated. Please state your 13 full name. 14 THE WITNESS: Abigail Seda, SED, as in David, A. 15 DIRECT EXAMINATION 16 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, before we begin the 17 questions of the witness, I would like to display three 18 exhibits. First, Government Exhibit 4, already received in 19 evidence, at page 12; and then using the Elmo, I would like to 20 display what was previously received in evidence during the 21 testimony of Agent Coleman, Government Exhibit 305, and if we 22 can display the inside cover and then the entry page under I 23 for the record that's Government Exhibit 305. The United 24 States cover just reading the card it says Nanhar Trading, 25 Wadih El Hage, director, and then turning to the page in that 3142 1 same exhibit under "I" and focusing on the last entry on the 2 page -- 3 THE COURT: The last entry on which page? 4 MR. FITZGERALD: On the page on the right. And I'll 5 read Ihab M. Ali, 4627 Calendula Dr., Orlando, FL, 32809. And 6 then also displaying on the overhead projector, Government 7 Exhibit 304, received during the Agent Coleman's testimony and 8 one page -- Government Exhibit 304, and the 13th page, and 9 reading the entry in the middle, Ihab Ali, 407-363-6981. 10 I'll hand up to Ms. Seda what was previously received 11 in evidence as Government Exhibit 451A, 451B, and I'll ask Ms. 12 Seda to read into the record the name and address listed on 13 451B. 14 A 451B, Yusr Ali, Y-U-S-R, 4627 Calendula Dr., Orlando 15 Florida, 32839. 16 Q And is there a phone number listed on those records? 17 A Yes, there is. Area code 407-363-6981. 18 Q I'll approach the witness with what has been he premarked 19 as Government Exhibit 451 for identification. 20 Ms. Seda, have you reviewed the chart marked 21 Government Exhibit 451C? 22 A Yes, I have. 23 Q What does that chart list? 24 A It lists dates and times of phone calls from the phone 25 bills. 3143 1 Q What is the number -- strike that. The calls listed there 2 are from which telephone number? 3 A From telephone number 407-363-6981. 4 Q And the calls are to which telephone number? 5 A To phone number 254820067. 6 Q And is it fair to say -- the dates listed in the left 7 column are the dates of the telephone bills? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And the times listed under local time for the telephone 10 bills? 11 A Yes. 12 Q What is the local time for this chart from this telephone 13 bill? 14 A For this chart it would be the local time for Florida. 15 Q And next to that it says "length of call"? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And what would that reflect? 18 A That would reflect the amount of minutes of the call. 19 Q And does the chart 451C accurately reflect the entries in 20 the telephone bills for calls between the number in Florida to 21 the other number as reflected on those bills? 22 A Yes. 23 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I would offer the chart, 24 Government Exhibit 451C, and also ask for the instruction. 25 THE COURT: Yes. It's received. 3144 1 (Government Exhibit 451C received in evidence) 2 THE COURT: A couple of things I want you to bear in 3 mind with respect to this chart. First of all, this is 4 information which is derived from the telephone bills and it 5 is just a summary of what appears on the telephone bills and 6 doesn't purport to be anything more. 7 With respect to the subscriber, that is an indication 8 that the telephone in question was listed under the subscriber 9 Wadih El Hage. It does not tell us who was speaking in that 10 telephone call, and with respect to that issue, we will have 11 to rely on other information. 12 MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Judge. 13 I'll approach the witness with what has been received 14 in evidence previously as Government Exhibit 621B during the 15 testimony of Agent Bush. 16 Q I would ask Ms. Seda to read into the record the name 17 listed on those bills and the phone number. 18 A The name is Wadih Elias El Hage and the phone number is 19 820067. 20 Q I'll approach you with another chart, and that chart is 21 marked 658C for identification, and I'll ask you if that is a 22 chart prepared from those telephone bills. 23 A Yes, it is. 24 Q And what does this chart reflect? 25 A It reflects the phone calls made from 254820067 to the 3145 1 phone number 4073636981. 2 Q And again, does it reflect a date and the local time of 3 those calls? 4 A Yes, it does. 5 Q For this chart what would the local time refer to? 6 A The local time would refer to Kenya, Nairobi. 7 Q And the next column says the "length of the calls," for 8 example, at one point it says 4.24, what does that refer to? 9 A Four minutes and 24 seconds. 10 Q So the number after the decimal point would refer to 11 seconds? 12 A Yes, it does. 13 Q Is this a fair and accurate chart of the phone calls 14 reflected between the number in Kenya, 254820067, to the 15 Florida number as appearing on those bills in front of you, 16 Government Exhibit 621B? 17 A Yes. 18 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I would offer Government 19 Exhibit 658C. 20 THE COURT: Yes, it's received and my same 21 instruction applies to this as well. 22 (Government Exhibit 658C received in evidence) 23 MR. FITZGERALD: I have no further questions of this 24 witness. 25 THE COURT: Anything of this witness? 3146 1 Thank you, ma'am. You may step down. 2 (Witness excused) 3 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, at this time I would 4 like to display the following exhibits: Government Exhibit -- 5 first I would like to display Government Exhibit 632A and just 6 noting the English February 21, 1997, and at the bottom, "I 7 waiting for your reply," with a signature beneath. And if we 8 could now display 632AT, and just reading the translation. 9 (Government Exhibit 632AT read) 10 MR. FITZGERALD: I would next like to display 11 Government Exhibit 615A and read that into the record. 12 (Government Exhibit 615A read) 13 MR. FITZGERALD: If we could then return to the first 14 page of that same document and focus on the upper left-hand 15 corner and magnify the header. If I could read: "February 16 26, '97, 12:16 a.m." If we could do the same thing with the 17 second page: "February 26th, '97, 12:18 a.m." 18 Now if I could display Government Exhibit 632D. 19 Before I do that, can I read the entry from the chart 20 we just admitted, Government Exhibit 451C, the record of calls 21 from 4073636981 to the number 254820067 which reflects an 22 entry for February 26th, 1997 at 12:20 a.m. 23 I would now display Government Exhibit 632D and 24 632DT. At the bottom, if we could focus on that for the 25 moment, and reading aloud. 3147 1 (Government Exhibit 632D-T read) 2 MR. FITZGERALD: If we could now go to the top of the 3 page to focus on the header, upper left-hand corner, 4 indicating March 9, 1997 at 10:54 a.m., and then if I could 5 read from the exhibit just received, 451C, the chart of 6 telephone calls from 407-363-6981 to the number in Kenya, 7 254820067, and the entry is for March 9, '97, an entry of 8 10:55 a.m. for one minute to the number subscribed to by Wadih 9 El Hage, and the same March 9, '97, an entry at 10:57 for one 10 minute. 11 If we could now display Government Exhibit 435 and if 12 we could also display Government Exhibit 435T. And I'll read 13 aloud this exhibit. 14 (Government Exhibit 435-T read) 15 MR. FITZGERALD: Next Exhibit I would like to display 16 is Government Exhibit 439A, 4349A-T -- I'm sorry, 439B. 17 (Government Exhibit 439A-T read) 18 MR. FITZGERALD: Again, the exhibits being read, 19 439AT, received during the testimony of Agent Bush. 20 I would also, returning to the original, 439, and 21 focus in the upper left-hand corner of the header and enlarge 22 it and read aloud: June 28, '97, 4:55 p.m., and then read 23 from the chart just received in evidence, 451C, which reflects 24 calls from the Florida number to the Kenya number for an entry 25 June 28, '97 at 4:57 p.m. for one minute and June 28, '97 at 3148 1 4:59 p.m. for one minute. 2 And finally, I would like to display Government 3 Exhibit 624D, and just reading the English, "July 16th," 4 "please confirm." Below, "coffee and tea?" Below, "answering 5 machine." 6 I now display 624D-T, and reading aloud. 7 (Government Exhibit 624D-T read) 8 MR. FITZGERALD: If I could also display the reverse, 9 the back side of 624D, 624D-T, and read the number written 10 there, 944076586371. 11 Now, your Honor, I would like to display some 12 photographs which were received in evidence during the 13 testimony of Agent Bush, and the first photograph, number of 14 photographs was 625, Exhibit 625B. 15 If you could queue up 625B-1 and if we could compare 16 that photograph with the photograph previously received in 17 evidence, Government Exhibit 4, page 9, and read below, Anas 18 al Liby. 19 We could now display another photograph from the 20 testimony of Agent Bush that was received at that time, 21 Government Exhibit 625B-2, and if we could display on the 22 right Government Exhibit 4, page 4, and the name below, Saif 23 al Adel. 24 If we could now display the third photograph, 625B-3, 25 and on the right if we could display Government Exhibit 104. 3149 1 And next on the right display Government Exhibit 111. 2 If we could next display the photograph, the fourth 3 photograph 625B entered on the computer as 4, and compare the 4 right, Government Exhibit 114. 5 And finally, if we could display the fifth photograph 6 in 625B on the left and Government Exhibit 120 on the right. 7 And your Honor, at this time, the government would 8 read in evidence a stipulation concerning Government Exhibit 9 151: 10 "It is hereby stipulated and agreed by and between 11 the United States of America and the defendant Wadih El Hage, 12 by and with the consent of his attorney as follows: 13 "1. That if called to testify as a witness, Tracy 14 Thompson, an official Grand Jury reporter in the Southern 15 District of New York, would testify that Government Exhibit 16 420A and 420B are true and accurate transcriptions of the 17 proceedings before a Grand Jury in the Southern District of 18 New York which took place on September 16, 1998. 19 "It is further stipulated and agreed that the 20 testimony of page 78, lines 9 and 10, on the morning 21 transcript should read, 'I saw him a month or two ago in 22 Arlington. He moved out of Arlington but was visiting.' 23 "It is further stipulated and agreed that the company 24 referred to in the testimony on page 15, lines 9, 10 and 12 of 25 the afternoon transcript should be spelled Wadi al Aqiq." 3150 1 I think the purpose is to show that the name of 2 company does not have the first name of Wadih El Hage in it so 3 there's no confusion. 4 "It is further stipulated and agreed that this 5 stipulation may be received in evidence as a government 6 exhibit at trial." 7 And your Honor, we would now propose to read the 8 transcript of Mr. El Hage's testimony before the Grand Jury on 9 September 16, 1998. 10 Mr. Francisco and Ms. Seda will read the testimony 11 and we will display the testimony on the screen. We will ask 12 Mr. Francisco and Ms. Seda to read that one sentence as 13 reflected on the stipulation. 14 THE COURT: In the stipulation, of course. 15 MR. FRANCISCO: Grand Jury Government Exhibit 428A, 16 United States Grand Jury, Southern District of New York. 17 Caption: United States of America v. John Doe. June 1996 18 Special. United States Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, 19 New York, 10007. September 16, 1998. 10:50 a.m. 20 "Appearances by Assistant United States Attorney. 21 Tracy A. Thompson, CSR, Acting Grand Jury Reporter. 22 "(Colloquy precedes.) 23 "(Time noted: 10:55 o'clock a.m.) 24 "(Witness enters room.) 25 "Wadih El Hage, called as a witness, having been 3151 1 first duly affirmed by the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, 2 testified as follows: 3 "Examination by Assistant United States Attorney: 4 "Q Good morning, Mr. El Hage. 5 "A Good morning. 6 "Q If you could state your name for the record and spell 7 your full name for the benefit of the court reporter, please. 8 "A W-A-D-I-H, last name E-L, H-A-G-E. 9 "Q Now, Mr. El Hage, I'm going to advise you of your rights. 10 "We both understand that you have testified on a 11 prior occasion before a different Grand Jury that sat because 12 of scheduling reasons. 13 "In other words, you were available to testify on a 14 day that this Grand Jury was not available. 15 "However, the rules are the same, but to be extra 16 careful, I'm going to advise you once again what the Grand 17 Jury is investigating and what your rights are. 18 "Do you understand what I'm about to do? 19 "A I do. 20 "Q For the record, my name is...and I am an assistant United 21 States attorney here in the Southern District of New York. 22 "This Grand Jury is investigating violations of Title 23 18, United States Code, Section 371, 844, 921, 1958, 1959 and 24 2332. 25 "I will tell you and the grand jurors what those 3152 1 numbers mean. 2 "Section 371 is a conspiracy statute. To violate 3 Section 371, two or more people have to agree to violate the 4 law of the United States. 5 "Section 844 relates to the bombing of buildings in 6 interstate or foreign commerce. 7 "Section 921 relates to transportation of weapons. 8 "Section 1958 relates to interstate and foreign 9 travel in aid of racketeering activity. 10 "Section 1959 relates to murders and violent crimes 11 in aid of racketeering activity. 12 "And Section 2332 and the ones that follow relate to 13 terrorism. 14 "Those are the charges that this Grand Jury generally 15 is investigating. 16 "You should also understand that the Grand Jury is 17 also investigating possible instances of perjury before this 18 Grand Jury and other Grand Juries, which would be in violation 19 of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1621 and 1623. 20 "In addition, in the course of this investigation, if 21 the Grand Jury uncovers evidence of other alleged illegal 22 activity, it has the power to charge or investigate those 23 other federal crimes. 24 "Do you understand the general nature of this 25 investigation? 3153 1 "A I do. 2 "Q Now, you should also understand that you have a 3 Constitutional right to refuse to answer any questions if a 4 truthful answer would tend to incriminate you personally. 5 "Do you understand that right? 6 "A I do. 7 "Q If you choose to answer a question, any statement that 8 you do make can be used against you in a court of law or other 9 legal proceeding. 10 "Do you understand that? 11 "A I do. 12 "Q If you decide to answer any questions, you may stop 13 answering at any time and invoke your privilege against 14 self-incrimination. 15 "Do you understand that? 16 "A I do. 17 "Q In particular, you chose to answer questions the last 18 time you appeared before the Grand Jury. 19 "You should obviously understand that you have the 20 right not to answer questions at this time if you change your 21 mind. 22 "Do you understand that? 23 "A I do. 24 "Q You have a right to consult with an attorney if you wish. 25 "Do you understand that? 3154 1 "A I do. 2 "Q And while you do not have the right to have a lawyer 3 present in the Grand Jury room, the Grand Jury would permit 4 you, if you wished, a reasonable opportunity to step outside 5 the Grand Jury room and consult with an attorney if you so 6 desired. 7 "Do you understand that? 8 "A I do. 9 "Q And you understand if you could not afford an attorney, 10 you could apply to the court to have an attorney appointed to 11 you free of charge. 12 "Do you understand that? 13 "A I do. 14 "Q For the record today, are you represented by an attorney? 15 "A No. 16 "Q Now, the testimony that you're about to give, if you 17 choose to do so, will be under oath. 18 "That means that this Grand Jury or another Grand 19 Jury has the power to indict you for perjury or false 20 statements if it finds that you have willfully testified 21 falsely as to any material or important fact. 22 "Do you understand that? 23 "A I do. 24 "Q And the maximum penalty for each count of perjury is five 25 years in prison and a $250,000 fine. 3155 1 "Do you understand that? 2 "A I do. 3 "Q And you should also understand that if you tell multiple 4 false statements, if you tell more than one lie to this Grand 5 Jury, you could be charged with more than one count and get 6 higher penalties. 7 "Do you understand that? 8 "A I do. 9 "Q You should also understand that your conduct is being 10 investigated by this Grand Jury for possible violation of 11 criminal law. 12 "Do you understand that? 13 "A Explain that to me, please. 14 "Q Okay. This Grand Jury is trying to determine whether or 15 not people violated various laws, including the laws related 16 to transportation of weapons, transportation of explosives, 17 bombings, illegal agreements and perjury. 18 "One of the people that this Grand Jury is 19 investigating is you, among others. 20 "Do you understand this? 21 "A Yes, I do. 22 "Q That means that you are what is called a target of the 23 Grand Jury investigation. 24 "A I see. Okay. 25 "Q Now, do you understand that? 3156 1 "A I do. 2 "Q Do you understand your rights as I have explained them to 3 you? 4 "A I do. 5 "Q Do you wish to answer questions? 6 "A Yes. 7 "Q Now, what I would like you to do -- you've already 8 explained your general background to this Grand Jury, what I 9 would like you to do -- to a different Grand Jury -- strike 10 that. 11 "If you can, tell us briefly where you were born. 12 "A I was born in Lebanon. 13 "Q In what year? 14 "A 1960. 15 "Q Now, what I would like to do at the very beginning is to 16 ask you questions about the recent bombings that occurred in 17 Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, in August 1998, 18 in which well more than 250 people were killed. 19 "Let me begin by asking, do you know who did the 20 bombings? 21 "A No, I don't. 22 "Q Let me show you some photographs, and I would like to ask 23 you if you recognize any of the people in these pictures. And 24 we'll take our time and go through these photographs slowly. 25 "I'll put the number of each photograph on the record 3157 1 and indicate the date that the exhibit was so marked. 2 "And if you look at these photographs, please tell me 3 whether or not you have seen the people in the photographs 4 before, and if so, where. 5 "If you have seen them in the newspaper, just say 6 I've only seen them in the newspaper. 7 "If you have seen them in person, please tell us 8 that. 9 "The first photograph is Grand Jury Exhibit 1, and 10 the exhibit is marked with a date September 10, '98. 11 "Strike that. We'll hold off on that one. Make it 12 Grand Jury Exhibit 2 from September 10, 1998. Do you know of 13 the person in that picture? 14 "A Yes, I do. 15 "Q Okay. Who is that? 16 "A I don't remember his name. I saw him in Kenya. 17 "Q You saw him in Kenya? 18 "A Yes. 19 "Q And for the record, for the benefit of the Grand Jury, 20 when did you live in Kenya? 21 "A '94 to '96. 22 "Q From 1994 through 1996? 23 "A Yeah. 24 "Q Okay. And where did you go to when you left Kenya in 25 1996? 3158 1 "A I came here into the States. 2 "Q Would that be at the same time that you first appeared 3 before the Grand Jury? 4 "A Yes. 5 "Q If the date of your testimony before the other Grand Jury 6 was September 1997, would that refresh your recollection as to 7 when it was that you left Kenya? 8 "A I left in '97. 9 "Q Okay. So from 1994 through 1997 you lived in Kenya? 10 "A Yes. 11 "Q Where did you meet the person depicted in Grand Jury 12 Exhibit 2? 13 "A In Nairobi. 14 "Q Do you know where in Nairobi? 15 "A At the mosque. 16 "Q At the mosque? 17 "What's the name of this mosque? 18 A It's the biggest mosque. I don't remember any name. It's 19 the biggest mosque in Nairobi. 20 "Q What neighborhood in Nairobi is the mosque located in? 21 "A In downtown. 22 "Q Downtown. 23 "How often did you see the fellow depicted in Grand 24 Jury Exhibit 2 in the mosque? 25 "A Almost every week, every two weeks. 3159 1 "Q Every two weeks for the three-year period you lived in 2 Kenya? 3 "A Not constantly, no. 4 "Q Did you know his name? 5 "A Yes, I knew his name. 6 "Q Okay. 7 "A I can't remember his name right now. 8 "Q Okay. Did you have any business dealings with this 9 person? 10 "A No. No business. 11 "Q Okay. We'll come back to that person in a moment. 12 "Let me show you what has been marked as Grand Jury 13 Exhibit 3, also bearing the date September 10 of 1998, and 14 tell me whether or not you recognize the person depicted in 15 Grand Jury Exhibit 3. 16 "A No. 17 "Q Okay. Let me show you Grand Jury Exhibit 4 from 18 September 10 of 1998, and I would advise you that this picture 19 has two pages. 20 "So that you're not confused, the pictures are the 21 same person, they're just different photographs. So look at 22 both pictures to see if you recognize the person in either 23 photograph with Grand Jury Exhibit 4. 24 "A No. 25 "Q Then I'll show you Grand Jury Exhibit 5 from September 10 3160 1 of 1998 and ask whether you recognize the person depicted in 2 Grand Jury Exhibit 5. 3 "A I've seen this picture on T.V. 4 "Q You've seen this picture on the T.V.? 5 "A Yes. 6 "Q How recently did you see it on the T.V.? 7 "A Two or three weeks ago. 8 "Q. Have you ever seen this person in person? 9 "A No. I have never seen him in person. 10 "Q I'm going to skip Grand Jury Exhibit 6 for the moment and 11 go to Grand Jury Exhibit 7 and ask you if you have seen the 12 person depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 7. 13 "A Yes. 14 "Q Who is the person depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 7? 15 "A His name is Harun. 16 "Q Is that spelled H-A-R-U-N? 17 "A Yes. 18 "Q Do you know what Harun's last name is? 19 "A Something like with F, Fazhl. 20 "Q Fazhl, F-A-Z-H-L? 21 "A Yes. Something like that. 22 "Q Okay. Why don't we put Harun Fazhl to the side and come 23 back to that in a moment. 24 "Let me show you Grand Jury Exhibit 8 and ask if you 25 recognize the person depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 8, which 3161 1 bears the date of September 10, 1998. 2 "A No. I don't recognize him. 3 "Q Let me show you Grand Jury Exhibit 9, which bears the 4 date September 10 of 1998. 5 "A No. I don't recognize him. 6 "Q Let me show you Grand Jury Exhibit 10, which also bears 7 the date of September 10, 1998. 8 "A Yes, I do. 9 "Q Okay. And who is the person depicted in Grand Jury 10 Exhibit 10? 11 "A I don't recall his name. He was the director for Mercy 12 International. 13 "Q And can you briefly tell the grand jury what Mercy 14 International is? 15 "And keep your voice up. It's very important that 16 everyone in the room hears you. 17 "A It's a relief agency that works in Kenya and Somalia and 18 Tanzania. 19 "Q And were you affiliated with the Mercy Relief 20 Organization in Kenya, Tanzania and Somalia? 21 "A Not really affiliated, but we had to have cooperation in 22 doing our relief work. 23 "Q And what organization were you affiliated with? 24 "A The Help Africa People. 25 "Q Help Africa People, okay. 3162 1 "And do you know the name of the person in Grand Jury 2 Exhibit 10? 3 "A This one? 4 "Q Yes? 5 "A I can't remember it now. I can't recall the name. 6 "Q And where did you first meet the person depicted in Grand 7 Jury Exhibit 10? 8 A At his office, the office in Nairobi. 9 "Q And how often did you see the person depicted in Grand 10 Jury Exhibit 10? 11 "A Whenever I go there, probably once a month or so. That's 12 why I can't recall his name very well. 13 "Q Did you ever see this person depicted in Grand Jury 14 Exhibit 10 at the mosque? 15 "A Yes. 16 "Q Did you ever see the person depicted in Grand Jury 17 Exhibit 10 anyplace outside of Kenya? 18 "A No. 19 "Q We'll come back to Grand Jury Exhibit 10 in a moment. 20 "Why don't you look at Grand Jury Exhibit 11, which 21 is also dated September 10, 1998, and which is another exhibit 22 of two pages. 23 "They are different photographs of the same person, 24 looking slightly different each time, so don't be confused. 25 "Take a look at both photographs and tell us if you 3163 1 recognize the person in Grand Jury Exhibit 11. 2 "A No, I do not recognize him. 3 "Q I show you what has been marked as Grand Jury Exhibit 12, 4 also marked September 10, 1998, and ask you if you recognize 5 that person. 6 "It's a small black and white picture. 7 "A No. 8 "Q Let me show you Grand Jury Exhibit 13, also dated 9 September 10, 1998, and ask you if you recognize that person. 10 "A No. 11 "Q I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 14, marked September 10, 12 1998, and ask you if you recognize that person. 13 "A No. 14 "Q Now, as I understand it, you recognize the person in 15 Grand Jury Exhibit 2, but you do not know his name, correct? 16 "A I can't remember his name. 17 "Q But you knew his name at one time? 18 "A Yeah. 19 "Q Grand Jury Exhibit 10, you recognize that person and you 20 cannot remember his name, correct? 21 "A I think he goes by Abu Wael. 22 "Q Would that be, A-B-U W-A-E-L? 23 "A Yes, something like that. 24 "Q And then Grand Jury Exhibit 7 you recognize as being 25 Harun Fazhl? 3164 1 "A Yes. 2 "Q Why don't we put the three people you recognize to the 3 side for the moment. 4 "I want you to go back and look at Grand Jury Exhibit 5 3 -- actually, we'll leave that alone, okay. 6 "The person Harun Fazhl, when was the last time you 7 spoke to him? 8 "A Just before I came back to the States. I think mid 9 September. Mid September. September '97. 10 "Q So if we're talking about your prior Grand Jury testimony 11 having occurred on September 24, 1997, the last time you spoke 12 to Harun Fazhl was before that date? 13 "A Right. 14 "Q Have you spoken to Harun Fazhl by telephone since that 15 time? 16 "A No. 17 "Q Have you sent mail to Harun Fazhl since that time? 18 "A No. 19 "Q Has he sent you mail since that time? 20 "A No. 21 "Q Have you sent him E-mail since September 24, 1997? 22 "A No. 23 "Q Has he sent you E-mail since September 24, 1997? 24 "A No. 25 "Q Have you exchanged messages in way, shape or form with 3165 1 Harun Fazhl since September 24, 1997? 2 "A No. 3 "Q Has anyone told you anything about Harun Fazhl since 4 September 24, 1997? 5 "A No. 6 "Q Do you have any idea where Harun Fazhl is as we speak? 7 "A Well, last I saw him in Nairobi, he was getting ready to 8 go to his country. 9 "Q And what country would his country be? 10 "A Comoros. 11 "Q Those are islands southeast of Kenya? 12 "A No, they're east of Africa. I don't know where exactly. 13 "Q Okay. Now, when Harun Fazhl was in Nairobi, how often 14 did you see him? 15 "A When he was in Nairobi? 16 "Q Yes. 17 "A Almost every day. He was working with me. 18 "Q And what organization was he working with that he worked 19 with you? 20 "A The Help Africa People. 21 "Q When did you first meet Harun Fazhl and where? 22 "A In Nairobi. I don't remember, either at the mosque or at 23 the Mercy International office. 24 "Q How did you meet him? 25 "A Well, the mosque, I was introduced to him or he was 3166 1 introduced to me. 2 "Q By whom? 3 "A What's his name? He's a Kenyan who works with Mercy 4 International. 5 "Q Do you recall his name? 6 A I'm trying to remember. He's a tall guy. Ahmed. 7 "Q Do you know where Harun Fazhl -- strike that. 8 "Did you ever meet Harun Fazhl anyplace in the world 9 outside of Kenya? 10 "A No. 11 "Q Do you know if Harun Fazhl has visited any places in the 12 world besides Kenya and the Comoros Islands? 13 "A He went to Somalia. 14 "Q In what year did he go to Somalia? 15 "A He went several times in '95 and '96. 16 "Q And what was the purpose of Harun Fazhl going to Somalia? 17 "A Relief work. He was collecting information for our 18 agency. 19 "Q And who sent him to Somalia? 20 "A I did. 21 "Q And who did he go with? 22 "A I didn't send him with anyone, but he probably went with 23 some people who directed him for where to go. I sent him 24 alone. 25 "Q Do you know if he ever went to Afghanistan? 3167 1 "A No, I don't know that. 2 "Q Do you know if he was ever trained in any camps in 3 Afghanistan or Pakistan? 4 "A No. 5 "Q Do you know if he's ever been to -- strike that. 6 "Do you know if he's ever engaged in any military 7 actions? 8 "A No. 9 "Q Do you know if he fought against any United States or 10 United Nations troops in Somalia? 11 "A No. 12 "Q No, you don't know, or you never heard of any 13 information? 14 "A I don't know any information like that. 15 "Q Did you ever hear anyone indicate that Harun Fazhl 16 trained people to fight against U.S. or U.N. troops in 17 Somalia? 18 "A No. I never heard that. 19 "Q Do you know if Harun Fazhl knew Usama Bin Laden? 20 "A Did he know him, did he hear about him? 21 "Q Did he know him personally? 22 "A. Not that I know of, no. 23 "Q Did you ever talk to Harun Fazhl about Usama Bin Laden? 24 "A We mentioned the name whenever it came up. 25 "Q In 1994 through 1997 when you were in Kenya, were you 3168 1 doing work on behalf of Usama Bin Laden? 2 "A Me? 3 "Q Yes. 4 "A No. 5 "Q Did you do any work for Usama Bin Laden while you were in 6 Kenya from 1994 through 1997? 7 "A No. 8 "Q Did you have any contact with Usama Bin Laden in the 9 period from 1994 to 1997? 10 "A. Personally? 11 "Q Yes, first personally. 12 "A No. 13 "Q You never saw him in those four years? 14 "A No. 15 "Q Did you have any telephone conversations with Usama Bin 16 Laden at any time in 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997 or 1998? 17 "A No, never. 18 "Q In those five years have you sent any mail to Usama Bin 19 Laden? 20 "A No. 21 "Q In those five years has he sent you any mail? 22 "A No. 23 "Q In those five years have you sent any E-mails to Usama 24 Bin Laden or has he sent any E-mails to you? 25 "A No. 3169 1 "Q In those five years have you sent any faxes to Usama Bin 2 Laden or has he sent any faxes to you? 3 "A No. 4 "Q In those five years have you sent any messages to Usama 5 Bin Laden in any way, shape or form? 6 "A No. 7 "Q In those five years has Usama Bin Laden sent you any 8 messages in any way, shape or form? 9 "A He sent me a message, yes, through one of his aides. 10 "Q Okay. And what year was it and who was the aide? 11 "A Probably the end of '94 or the beginning of '95. 12 "Q And who was the aide that sent you the message? 13 "A What's his name? His Saudi relative. What was his name? 14 "I can't recall his name. He was living in England. 15 "Q Would this be someone you discussed in your last Grand 16 Jury testimony? 17 "A. I don't remember. 18 "Q Does this Saudi relative have any physical handicaps? 19 "A. Yes. One of his legs. 20 "Q One of his legs is -- 21 "A Amputated. 22 "Q Would that Saudi relative be from Mecca? 23 "A Yes. 24 "Q Would this be Abu Fadhl al Makkee? 25 "A Yes. 3170 1 "Q Okay. What was the message you got from Abu Fadhl al 2 Makkee in 1994 or 1995 from Usama Bin Laden? 3 "A To get some spare parts for tractors. 4 "Q And where were you to go to get the spare parts for the 5 tractors? 6 "A Slovakia. 7 "Q Slovakia. 8 "Did you go to Slovakia? 9 "A Yes. 10 "Q Did you conduct any other business in Slovakia besides 11 seeking to obtain spare parts for tractors? 12 "A No. 13 "Q Other than that message from Abu Fadhl al Makkee, did you 14 get any other communications from Usama Bin Laden from 1994 to 15 the present in any way, shape or form? 16 "A No. 17 "Q Did you have any communications from any of Usama Bin 18 Laden's representatives in any way, shape or form in those 19 five years besides the one message from Abu Fadhl al Makkee? 20 "A No. 21 "Q Are you familiar with a person by the name of Abu Hafs al 22 Masry? 23 "A. Yes. 24 "Q And is he one of the top lieutenants for Usama Bin Laden? 25 "A Yes. 3171 1 "Q Did you communicate in any way, shape or form, including 2 phone, in-person, mail, E-mail or messages with Abu Hafs al 3 Masry in any of the years 1994 to 1998? 4 "A He called me once or twice in Kenya. 5 "Q Okay. Why don't you tell the Grand Jury when and why he 6 called you in Kenya once or twice. 7 "A. I don't recall when, but it's probably '95 or '96. 8 "Q And what was the conversation that you had with him 9 during these one or two conversations? 10 "A They weren't any subjects to discuss. He's just an old 11 friend of mine that I've known for over 15 years, so he just 12 called to ask about me and how am I doing. 13 "Q Did he ask you to do anything on behalf of Usama Bin 14 Laden when he spoke to you? 15 "A No. 16 "Q Did he give you any messages from Usama Bin Laden when he 17 spoke to you? 18 "A No. 19 "Q Did you give any messages to pass to Usama Bin Laden when 20 you spoke to him? 21 "A No. 22 "Q Did you talk about law enforcement or efforts to arrest 23 Abu Hafs during that conversation? 24 "A Say that again. 25 "Q Did you discuss with Abu Hafs whether or not anyone in 3172 1 the world wanted to arrest him? 2 "A I don't remember. I don't recall that. 3 "Q Now, did you ever see Abu Hafs in Kenya or Tanzania at 4 any time? 5 "A No, I don't think he went there. 6 "Q Do you know a person by the name of T-A-Y-S-I-R or 7 T-A-Y-S-E-E-R, and what I'll do is, so that we're clear, we'll 8 mark it as a Grand Jury exhibit and I'll write it out in case 9 my pronunciation is not up to par. 10 "And we're way ahead in numbers, so I'm going to call 11 this -- we're jumping ahead to Grand Jury Exhibit 66 and I'll 12 put today's date on it, which is 9/16/98, and ask you if you 13 know who this name refers to, Taysir, T-A-Y-S-I-R or 14 T-A-Y-S-E-E-R? 15 "So marked. 16 "A I have known people called Tasir before. I can't recall 17 who it refers to. 18 "Q Have you ever heard of Abu Hafs referred to as Tasir? 19 "A I don't recall that. 20 "Q I'm going to add to Grand Jury Exhibit 66 another name, 21 al U-T-A-I-B-I, and I'll write it out, and ask you if you know 22 who al Utaibi is. 23 "A. The same thing. I heard this name before, but I can't 24 recall who is it. 25 "Q Let me ask you another name. Norman, N-O-R-M-A-N. 3173 1 "Do you know who Norman is? And I'll write it out 2 even though it's just -- so there's no confusion of the 3 spelling, N-O-R-M-A-N. 4 "A No. 5 "Q Okay. Have you ever been to the country of Iran? 6 "A. Iran, no. 7 "Q When you were living in Nairobi, Kenya, in 1994 -- strike 8 that. 9 "At any time did anyone ever show you files showing 10 sketches or photographs of the United States Embassy in 11 Nairobi, Kenya? 12 "A. No. Never. 13 "Q Has anyone ever shown you files containing sketches and 14 photographs of any American or Israeli buildings located in 15 Nairobi, Kenya? 16 "A No. 17 "Q Has anyone ever discussed with you the possibility of 18 conducting an attack against American or Israeli buildings 19 located in Nairobi, Kenya? 20 "A No. Never. 21 "Q Has anyone ever discussed with you the possibility of 22 conducting an attack on any American or Israeli interest in 23 Tanzania? 24 "A No. 25 "Q Has anyone ever discussed with you the possibility of an 3174 1 attack against any American interest worldwide? 2 "A No. Never. 3 "Q Do you know the organization known as al Haramain, 4 H-A-R-A-M-A-I-N? 5 "A Yes. 6 "Q And how are you familiar with al Haramain? 7 "A I don't know much about them, I just heard they're a 8 relieve agency in Nairobi, also. 9 "Q Have you ever visited the office of al Haramain? 10 "A Probably once. 11 "Q Do you know where those offices are? 12 "A In Nairobi. 13 "Q Where in Nairobi, what neighborhood? 14 "A I can't recall. 15 "Q Do you know who runs al Haramain? 16 "A I think it's a Saudi agency. 17 "Q Did you have any affiliation with al Haramain? 18 "A No. 19 "Q And your group, Help Africa People, was that funded in 20 any way, shape or form by Usama Bin Laden? 21 "A No. 22 "Q How many people in Kenya did you know that personally 23 knew Usama Bin Laden? 24 "A People who knew Usama Bin Laden in Kenya, nobody. You 25 mean know him personally, right? 3175 1 "Q People who knew him personally had met with him 2 personally. 3 "A No. I don't remember anyone who did. 4 "Q Are you familiar with an organization known as al Qaeda? 5 "A Yes. 6 "Q And are you familiar with the fact that al Qaeda is an 7 organization run by Usama Bin Laden? 8 "A Yes. 9 "Q Did you know any members of al Qaeda who lived in either 10 Kenya or Tanzania? 11 "A No. 12 "Q Did you know any members of al Quida who ever visited 13 Kenya or Tanzania? 14 "A No. 15 "Q Abu Hafs ever visit Kenya or Tanzania? 16 "A No, I don't recall him visiting there at all. 17 "Q Did Usama Bin Laden ever visit Kenya or Tanzania? 18 "A No. 19 "Q And if Usama Bin Laden or Abu Hafs were in Kenya, you 20 would recognize them if you saw them, correct? 21 "A Yes, for sure. 22 "Q I will ask you about one more name on this list, 23 J-A-L-A-L. 24 "Can you tell the Grand Jury whether or not you know 25 who Jalal is? 3176 1 "A Jalal, I know Jalal, he used to live here in the States. 2 "Q Okay. And what's his real name, if you know it? 3 "A That's his name. I don't recall the last name. 4 "Q Where in the States did he live? 5 "A He was in Louisiana. 6 "Q When was the last time you saw this Jalal? 7 "A '89 or '90. 8 "Q Do you know of any other Jalal's besides the fellow in 9 Louisiana? 10 "A No. 11 "Q Do you know anyone who participated in any of the attacks 12 against the American military forces who were in Somalia in 13 1992, 1993 and 1994? 14 "A No. 15 "Q Do you know of any of the people who participated in the 16 attacks against the United Nations forces in Somalia in 1992, 17 1993 and 1994? 18 "A No, I don't. 19 "Q Do you know any persons who provided logistical support 20 and/or training to any of the people in Somalia who were 21 attacking the United States, the United Nations forces in 22 1992, 1993 and 194? 23 "A No, I don't. 24 "Q Just so we're clear, referring to Grand Jury Exhibit 66, 25 have you ever been called Taysir or Taysir? 3177 1 "A Me? 2 "Q Yes. 3 "A No. 4 "Q Have you ever been called al Utaibi? 5 "A No. 6 "Q Have you ever been called Norman? 7 "A No. 8 "Q Have you ever been called Jalal? 9 "A No. 10 "Q When you went to Slovakia on behalf of Usama Bin Laden, 11 did you attempt to purchase any chemicals? 12 "A No." 13 THE COURT: We'll take our mid afternoon break at 14 this time. 15 (Jury not present) 16 THE COURT: We'll take a five-minute break and I'll 17 see counsel and the reporter in the robing room. 18 MR. SCHMIDT: One more thing I would like to put on 19 the record now. 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MR. SCHMIDT: The government has given us draft 22 translations over the course of the couple years and they have 23 given us then the new material that they were putting in 24 through witnesses with the stipulations, new materials 25 sometimes coming within minutes or hours before the material 3178 1 goes in. We assume that the translations are the same. 2 One of the translations the government just put in 3 now has the words in that -- excuse me, on Exhibit 439A and B, 4 in the translation in B there is a parentheses which says 5 "still addressing Wadih." 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 MR. SCHMIDT: That's not in the translation that we 8 had originally. We had really no time to review all of the 9 documents. We assumed the government would not make changes. 10 This is a translator's guess as to what was transpiring. I 11 think it's improper to not give us notice of such changes. 12 It's not the first one. And we hope to head this off by 13 notifying the government a few weeks ago that they can't do 14 this. 15 THE COURT: I wondered about it. What is the "still 16 addressing Wadih"? 17 MR. FITZGERALD: I've been advised by the paralegal 18 that scanned it in that was the translation in the Grand Jury 19 exhibit that was produced. I'll look, I wasn't aware of the 20 issue. I'll look into it. That was the translation as it was 21 produced and attached to the Grand Jury exhibit when it was 22 shown to him. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 MR. FITZGERALD: We'll look and see. 25 THE COURT: On it's face, it was not clear what that 3179 1 was. Look into it, reply, and maybe we will strike it or take 2 some other action. 3 MR. SCHMIDT: I would also note in the material that 4 was received yesterday, Wednesday, concerning the English 5 material there are also, for example, statements on top of 6 communiqus where they call it communiqu from Usama Bin 7 Laden, which isn't on the original document, and it's 8 obviously also added by the translator and it shouldn't be 9 there. And the problem is that I no longer can -- I'm sure 10 there's no bad intent on the part of Mr. Fitzgerald, but we no 11 longer can accept the translations as the same translations 12 when there are additions on them. 13 So I want to make your Honor aware of that. We're 14 near the end of the presentation, but we have a problem with 15 it. 16 THE COURT: We'll deal with the matter as was 17 indicated. 18 MR. SCHMIDT: Thank you. 19 THE COURT: If it is appropriate that there be some 20 striking or modification of the exhibit or statement to the 21 jury, we'll do so. 22 I'll see you in about five minutes with the reporter 23 in the robing room. 24 (Recess) 25 3185 1 (Pages 3180 through 3184 sealed) 2 (In open court; jury present) 3 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, before we resume 4 the reading of the grand jury minutes I would like to say 5 something further to you about the timing of the case, and I 6 want to assure you that the case is proceeding on a schedule 7 ahead of that which was anticipated. Unless something 8 entirely unforeseen happens, we think that all the proceedings 9 in this case should be over by the early summer. I talked to 10 you at one time about taking a break in August. I think we 11 will be finished before August. I have very much in mind that 12 you would like to have more definite information and you can 13 be assured that we would all like to have more definite 14 information. The reason we are ahead of schedule -- there are 15 several reasons. One is your cooperation. The other is that 16 the parties have agreed to a number of stipulations, and I am 17 sure you realize that many of these stipulations save days and 18 days of testimony as to matters which are not really in 19 dispute. 20 So assuming everyone stays healthy and there aren't 21 any unanticipated delays we should be well ahead of schedule, 22 and as soon as I can safely predict with greater precision 23 when it is we will be sitting and when it will be over, I 24 assure you, as soon as I know you will know. 25 We are resuming the reading of the grand jury 3186 1 transcript taken on September 16, 1998. 2 MR. FRANCISCO: Starting at page 31, line 2: 3 "Q Have you ever attempted to purchase chemicals on behalf 4 of Usama Bin Laden? 5 "A No. 6 "Q Have you ever helped in any way, shape or form to try to 7 arrange for Usama Bin Laden to obtain chemical weapons or the 8 components to make chemical weapons? 9 "A No, never. 10 "Q Would you have any business reason to purchase chemicals 11 at any time in any of your businesses? 12 "A No. 13 "Q Did you ever attempt to purchase nitric acid? 14 "A No. 15 "Q Are you familiar with a person by the name of Abu Ubaidah 16 Al Banshiri? And I will write it on 66 so if my pronunciation 17 is off it doesn't confuse. 18 "Do you know the person by the name of Abu Ubaidah Al 19 Banshiri? 20 "A Yes. 21 "Q Was he a person who worked for Usama Bin Laden? 22 "A Yes. 23 "Q Did he ever visit Nairobi or Kenya -- I am sorry, Kenya 24 or Tanzania? 25 "A I don't think so. 3187 1 "Q Now, do you know a person by the name of Khalid al 2 Fawwaz? 3 "A Yes. 4 "Q Where does Khalid al Fawwaz live? 5 "A Last he was in England last time. 6 "Q Did Khalid al Fawwaz work for Usama Bin Laden? 7 "A Yes. 8 "Q And did he ever visit -- did Khalid al Fawwaz ever visit 9 Kenya or Tanzania? 10 "A Yes, that's where I met him. 11 "Q Where did you meet him? 12 "A At the hotel. 13 "Q Which hotel? 14 "A Meridian. 15 "Q In Nairobi? 16 "A Yes. 17 "Q And why did you go to meet Khalid al Fawwaz? 18 "A Excuse me? 19 "Q Why did you meet Khalid al Fawwaz at the Meridian Hotel? 20 "A When did I meet him? 21 "Q Yes. 22 "A I met him when he was a businessman. I just arrived over 23 there when I went to open my relief agency. I met him in the 24 hotel there. He was businessman over there. 25 "Q Did you engage in business dealings with Khalid al 3188 1 Fawwaz? 2 "A No. He just helped me around to register the 3 organization. 4 "Q And was he living in Kenya at the time? 5 "A Yes. 6 "Q What was he doing in Kenya? 7 "A I really don't know what he do, but he was a businessman 8 there. 9 "Q What business was he in? 10 "A I really don't know. 11 "Q Did you ask? 12 "A Did I ask him? He was in the car business. He was 13 bringing cars to Nairobi. 14 "Q And who was he doing the car business on behalf of? 15 "A I think it's his own business. 16 "Q Do you know if he was conducting business on behalf of 17 Usama Bin Laden? 18 "A In Nairobi? 19 "Q In Kenya. 20 "A In Kenya, no. 21 "Q Did you engage in any business with Khalid al Fawwaz? 22 "A No. 23 "Q Did he ever give you any money? 24 "A No. 25 "Q Did you ever give him any money? 3189 1 "A No. 2 "Q Did you visit him in London? 3 "A Yes. 4 "Q When you were in London, did you give him any money? 5 "A No. 6 "Q When you were in London, did he give you any money? 7 "A One time was short 70 pounds, he gave me 70 pounds. 8 "Q OK. Other than the 70 pounds, have you given any money 9 to Khalid al Fawwaz, or has Khalid al Fawwaz given you any 10 money anywhere in the world? 11 "A No. 12 "Q Did you ever buy anything from Khalid al Fawwaz? 13 "A No. 14 "Q Did he ever buy anything from you? 15 "A From me? No. 16 "Q Did you engage in any corporate business with Khalid al 17 Fawwaz other than his registering your company? 18 "A What do you mean by? 19 "Q Did you buy any companies from Khalid al Fawwaz? 20 "A No. 21 "Q Did you buy any shares of stock in any companies or 22 entities owned by Khalid al Fawwaz? 23 "A No. 24 "Q Did he buy any companies from you? 25 "A No. 3190 1 "Q OK. Let me show you an exhibit you have seen before. 2 That is Grand Jury Exhibit 9, which is also marked with a 3 sticker Grand Jury Exhibit 3 with the date September 24, 1997, 4 and this is a book of photographs that you have seen 5 previously. 6 "I want to direct your attention to one particular 7 picture which you were shown previously and ask if you 8 recognize the person in the picture, which is a picture No. 34 9 in the book marked Grand Jury Exhibit 3, dated September 24, 10 1997. 11 "Do you recognize that person? 12 "A No, I don't. 13 "Q Let me show you what has been marked as Grand Jury 14 Exhibit 67 of today's date. See if you recognize the person 15 in that photograph. It's already been marked -- sorry -- 16 Grand Jury Exhibit 65, with the date 9/16/98. 17 "I ask you if you recognize the person depicted in 18 Grand Jury Exhibit 65? 19 "A I remember seeing this face. 20 "Q Where do you remember seeing the person depicted in Grand 21 Jury Exhibit 65? 22 "A Probably in New York. 23 "Q Probably in New York? What year? 24 "A I have recall -- when did I visit New York. In the 25 eighties. I visited two or three times, stayed two or three 3191 1 days. I probably saw him at the mosque or at the, what is it, 2 the office, the Mujahideen office here in New York. 3 "Q And by the Mujahideen, are you talking about the 4 A-L-K-I-F-A-H Refugee Center on Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn? 5 "A Yes. 6 "Q After seeing the person depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 65 7 in New York, perhaps at that office, did you ever see him 8 again? 9 "A I don't recall. 10 "Q Did you ever see him in Afghanistan? 11 "A I don't recall. 12 "Q Did you ever see him in Kenya or Tanzania? 13 "A I don't recall that. 14 "Q Would you recognize Khalid al Fawwaz if you saw him 15 again? 16 "A Yes. 17 "Q Would you recognize Abu Fadhl al Makkee see if you saw 18 him again? 19 "A Yes. 20 Q Would you remember Abu Hafs el Masry if you saw him again? 21 "A Yes. 22 "Q Would you recognize Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri if you saw 23 him again? 24 A Probably, yes. 25 Q And would you recognize Usama Bin Laden if you saw him 3192 1 again? 2 "A Yes. 3 "Q Are you familiar with the person known as Sheik Omar, 4 A-B-D-E-L, R-A-H-M-A-N? 5 "A Yes. 6 "Q Were you aware that there was a trial of Sheik Omar Abdel 7 Rahman in New York City in 1995? 8 "A Yes, I was aware of the trial. I don't know when was it. 9 "Q Did you follow the trial in the newspapers or on TV? 10 "A Not really. 11 "Q Did you ever hear of a listing issued which included the 12 name of people linked to the people on trial as 13 coconspirators? 14 "A With Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman? 15 "Q Yes. 16 "A No. 17 "Q Did anyone ever give you any documents arising out of the 18 trial of Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman? 19 "A In '91 I was sent copy from one of the aides of Sheik 20 Omar Abdel Rahman. 21 "Q Sent you a copy of what? 22 "A Something about Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman. I can't 23 remember what was it about. 24 "Q Was it a court document? 25 "A I don't recall. 3193 1 "Q Was it while Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman was in jail or 2 before he went to jail? 3 "A I don't remember when he go to jail but I remember this 4 was in '91 or beginning of '92. 5 "Q Was it before or after the World Trade Center blue up? 6 "A I don't remember. I was here until the middle of '92 in 7 effect, so -- 8 "Q So it was sent to you while you were still in Texas? 9 "A Yes. 10 "Q So it would have been certainly before the end of the 11 year of 1992? 12 "A Correct. 13 "Q Do you know any people living in America who are contacts 14 of Usama Bin Laden? 15 "A No. 16 "Q Has anyone in America ever contacted you on behalf of 17 Usama Bin Laden? 18 "A No. 19 "Q Do you know of any contacts of Usama Bin Laden living in 20 New York? 21 "A No. 22 "Q Do you know of any contacts of Usama Bin Laden living in 23 Florida? 24 "A No. 25 "Q Do you know of any contacts of Usama Bin Laden living in 3194 1 California? 2 "A No. 3 "Q Since the time that you came to this country in or about 4 the end of 1997, has Usama Bin Laden reached out and made any 5 contact with you? 6 "A No. 7 "Q Has anyone contacted you on behalf of Usama Bin Laden 8 since you came to this country? 9 A No. 10 "Q Did you hear that Usama Bin Laden thought that the United 11 States was his enemy and that the United States forces should 12 be attacked? 13 "A I heard that on TV. 14 "Q And prior to hearing it on TV, had you heard from anyone 15 else that Usama Bin Laden thought that the United States was 16 his enemy and should be attacked? 17 "A No. 18 "Q Now, the last time you were before this grand jury -- not 19 this grand jury -- a different grand jury, you were asked 20 about some files that had been removed from your house in 21 Kenya several months before you came to the grand jury. Do 22 you recall those files? 23 "A Yeah. They had the phone bills, my phone bills. 24 "Q And who removed the files from your home? 25 "A It was Harun. 3195 1 "Q Harun Fazhil, and you are pointing to the picture which 2 has been marked as Grand Jury Exhibit -- would that be Grand 3 Jury Exhibit 7 with today's date? 4 "A Right. 5 "Q And Harun Fazhil told you that he had removed files from 6 your office, correct? 7 "A Yes. 8 "Q And you told the last grand jury that the reason that 9 Harun Fazhil removed the files from your house was the fact 10 that Abu Fadhl al Makkee, the Saudi relative of Usama Bin 11 Laden, was believed to be cooperating with authorities; is 12 that correct? 13 "A The reason why he removed them? 14 "Q Yes. 15 "A I think the reason was because we had contacts with the 16 different companies in Sudan, the Usama Bin Laden companies in 17 Sudan. That's why he removed them. 18 "Q The person who had contact was whom? Who had contacts 19 with Usama Bin Laden companies in Sudan? 20 "A Me. 21 "Q You did? 22 "A Yes. 23 "Q When did you have those contacts with Usama Bin Laden 24 companies? What years? 25 "A In '95 and '96. 3196 1 "Q Now, what companies did you have contact with? 2 "A The names? 3 "Q Yes. 4 "A Taba. 5 "Q Is that spelled T-A-B-A? 6 "A Wadi al Aqiq. 7 "Q W-A-D-I, A-L, A-Q-I-Q. 8 "And why did you have contact with those companies in 9 1995 and 1996? What were you doing? 10 "A They were still asking me about different things from the 11 time I was working there. 12 "Q And who was asking you? 13 "A Whoever was taking care of those companies over there. 14 "Q And who would that be? 15 "A I don't recall. The people change a lot. 16 "Q But you didn't deal directly with Usama Bin Laden? 17 "A No. 18 "Q So Harun Fazhil was afraid because Abu Fadhl al Makkee 19 was cooperating with the authorities and took the files out of 20 your house; is that correct? 21 "A I don't recall that. I think he was afraid because the 22 Kenyan authorities they have, what do you call it, they are 23 against dealing with anything in Sudan, anyone in Sudan. 24 "Q And so they removed the files so that the Kenyan 25 authorities couldn't get a hold of the files, correct? 3197 1 "A Yes. 2 "Q And he took the files to where? 3 "A He told me he took them to a friend of his, Ahmed. 4 "Q So he took them to Ahmed's house? 5 "A Right. 6 "Q Did you understand where he wanted the files to end up? 7 "A He wanted me to get them back. 8 "Q And where did he want a friend to take the files? 9 "A He didn't mention that. He just left them with him, with 10 Ahmed. 11 "Q Did you tell the grand jury the last time you testified 12 that he wanted the files to go to Mercy International Relief 13 Agency? 14 "A Ahmed worked with Mercy. 15 "Q Ahmed worked with Mercy International? 16 "A Yes. 17 "Q And the last grand jury you appeared before you drew a 18 map as to how to get to Ahmed's house. Do you recall that? 19 "A Right. 20 "Q And did you later learn that when authorities went to 21 Ahmed's house they did not find the files? Were you told 22 that? 23 "A Yes. 24 "Q Now, sir, are you aware that about a month ago that 25 authority went to the Mercy International in Nairobi and 3198 1 conducted a search? 2 "A Yes. In the newspaper, I read it in the newspaper. 3 "Q Did anyone call you to tell you about that search? 4 "A No. 5 "Q Are you aware, sir, that in this search of Mercy 6 International in Nairobi, they found your files? 7 "A No. 8 "Q Now, sir, I am going to ask you questions about what's 9 contained in those files and I should advise you that it's 10 very important that you tell the truth, and I will warn you, 11 and there are things written in those files that indicate that 12 you have not been truthful in your testimony in September of 13 1997 or to date. 14 "Now, let me show you, first of all, let me show you 15 Grand Jury Exhibit 64 with today's date, and I will indicate 16 that the front of the exhibit has nine pictures on it and that 17 the front has Grand Jury Exhibit 64 sticker in the corner. 18 There are three rows of three pictures. 19 "What I would like you to do is start in the upper 20 left-hand corner, going from left to right and top to bottom. 21 Look at each of the nine pictures and tell us if you recognize 22 any of these people. 23 "A I recognize him. 24 "Q The person in the middle, so in the second row, second 25 picture? 3199 1 "A Yes. 2 "Q Who would that be? 3 "A I don't recall the name. I have seen him in Pakistan, 4 probably in the eighties. 5 "Q Why did you have his picture? 6 "A Those aren't my pictures. 7 "Q I know they're not pictures of you. 8 "A I mean, I never had these pictures. 9 "Q You don't ever recall having those pictures? 10 "A Never. 11 "Q OK. Let me flip over Grand Jury Exhibit 64 and show you 12 six pictures, three rows of two pictures each. Can you tell 13 us if you recognize any of the people in those pictures? 14 "A I remember him. 15 "Q The one in the upper left corner? 16 "A Yes. 17 "Q Can you tell us who that is? 18 "A Yes. 19 "Q Who? 20 "A Omar. 21 "Q Omar? 22 "A Yes. 23 "Q And how do you know Omar? 24 "A He was in Sudan. 25 "Q Okay, and what was Omar doing in Sudan? 3200 1 "A He was a refugee who came from Kuwait. 2 "Q So he was a refugee from Kuwait who came to Sudan after 3 Iran attacked Kuwait? 4 "A Right. 5 "Q What is Omar's nationality? 6 "A Palestinian. 7 "Q What was he doing there? 8 "A He was living with his family. His whole family was 9 there. 10 "Q Was he working for Usama Bin Laden? 11 "A No. 12 "Q Do you recognize any of the other five pictures? 13 "A No. 14 "Q Do you recognize -- did you have any of those other five 15 pictures in your possession at any time that you recall? 16 "A No. 17 "Q Did you have a picture of Omar at any time that you 18 recall? 19 "A I think he gave me his picture one time. 20 "Q And why did Omar give you this picture? 21 "A For memory. 22 "Q For memory? 23 "A Yes. 24 "Q Did he want anything for the picture? 25 "A I don't recall. 3201 1 "Q Did he ever ask you to get a passport? 2 "A Yes. 3 "Q He did? 4 "A Yes. 5 "Q Why don't you tell the grand jury about the time Omar 6 asked you to get him a passport. 7 "A The time? 8 "Q Did he ask you more than once? 9 "A No, just one time. 10 "Q Why did he come to you for a passport? 11 "A Because I travel a lot. 12 "Q Did he want a fake passport or a real passport? 13 "A He said whatever, any passport that you can get me, just 14 bring it, because he wanted to leave Sudan because 15 Palestinians don't have any passport. 16 "Q Did you get him a passport? 17 "A No. 18 "Q Why not? 19 "A Because I don't know how to get it. 20 "Q Then why did Omar think you could get a passport? 21 "A He thought because I travel I can get anything that I 22 want. 23 "Q Did any of these other fellows ask you, the traveller, 24 whether or not you can get them a passport? 25 "A I don't remember any of them. 3202 1 "Q Turning over to the front of Grand Jury Exhibit 64, the 2 person in the middle who you saw in Pakistan, the second 3 picture in the second row, did he ever ask you to get him a 4 passport? 5 "A No. 6 "Q OK. Let me show you now -- do you recall telling the 7 last grand jury that there came a time when a ferry sank in 8 Lake Victoria in the summer of 1996? 9 "A Yes. 10 "Q Do you recall telling the last grand jury that you 11 appeared in front of that you went to Lake Victoria to see 12 about someone who died in that ferry accident? 13 "A Right. 14 "Q Did you go with anyone else when you went to Lake 15 Victoria to find out about the person who drowned in Lake 16 Victoria in the ferry incident? 17 "A I went alone. 18 "Q Did you see that person Harun Fazhil when you went to the 19 scene of the ferry sinking? 20 "A Yes, he was there. 21 "Q What was Harun Fazhil doing there? 22 "A He was searching for the same thing. 23 "Q And what were you and Harun Fazhil searching for? 24 "A One of our colleagues in the Help Africa People agency. 25 "Q Can you tell the grand jury the name of the colleague at 3203 1 the Help Africa People Relief Agency that you were looking 2 for? 3 "A What was his name? I can't recall the name right now. 4 "Q How much time -- 5 "A You probably have it. 6 "Q How much time did you spend looking for this person who 7 you thought had drowned in the Lake Victoria ferry incident? 8 "A Two or three days. 9 "Q And it's a long -- how long is the travel from Nairobi to 10 Lake Victoria? 11 "A I went by air. It took two hours. 12 "Q So you flew to the scene of a ferry that sank. You spent 13 two or three days looking for someone and then you returned to 14 Nairobi. 15 "A Right. 16 "Q And you can't remember to tell the grand jury the name of 17 the person you were looking for? 18 "A I told you the name last time in front of the other grand 19 jury. If you tell me now I would remember it. I can't 20 remember it right now. 21 "Q Who asked you to go to the scene of the ferry sinking to 22 find the drowned person? 23 "A I can't recall. 24 "Q Did you report to anyone once you spent two days at the 25 scene of the ferry incident looking for something as to the 3204 1 results of the investigation? 2 "A Did I report to anybody? 3 "Q Did you report to anyone what you found out about the 4 sinking of the ferry? 5 "A No. 6 "Q Did you report to Usama Bin Laden or anyone that worked 7 for him what you found out about how the ferry sank? 8 "A No. 9 "Q As you sit here before this grand jury, you don't recall 10 who sent you to the scene of the ferry incident, you don't 11 recall reporting to anyone and you don't recall the name of 12 the person you were looking for; is that correct? 13 "A Right now I don't. 14 "Q How many ferry sinkings have you gone to to investigate 15 in your entire life? 16 "A Just one. 17 "Q What was so important about this ferry sinking that you 18 got on an airplane and flew to spend two days to investigate 19 the incident? 20 "A It was one of our colleagues. 21 "Q Close colleague? 22 "A Yes. 23 "Q Close enough that you can't remember his name as you sit 24 here today? 25 "A I can't recall the name right now. Last time I think I 3205 1 told you the name immediately. Just look in the files and 2 you'll remember and I'll remember. 3 "Q I don't doubt that it's in the file. The question isn't 4 what the name is, it's whether you can remember it, sir. 5 Let me show you what has been marked as Grand Jury 6 Exhibit 6, with the date September 10, 1998, and ask you if 7 you recognize the person depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 6? 8 "A Yes. 9 "Q Who is that? 10 "A It's Adel Habib. 11 "Q Who is Adel Habib? 12 "A He's the one who was on the ferry that I went to see. 13 "Q So you went to see Adel Habib who was on the ferry, 14 correct? 15 "A Yes. 16 "Q Does Adel Habib have another name? 17 "A Not that I know of. 18 "Q Isn't Adel Habib known as Abu Ubaidah? 19 "A Not that I know of. 20 "Q Isn't Adel Habib a secret man who worked on behalf of 21 Usama Bin Laden? 22 "A Adel? 23 "Q Yes. 24 "A No. 25 "Q And didn't he come to Kenya in secret in 1994, Abu 3206 1 Ubaidah al Banshiri? 2 "A I don't know anything about that. 3 "Q Didn't you report to Abu Ubaidah Al Banshiri when you 4 were working in Kenya for Usama Bin Laden? 5 "A I never worked for Usama Bin Laden in Kenya. I worked 6 for him in Sudan. 7 "Q Sir, weren't you sent on behalf of Usama Bin Laden to 8 investigate the drowning of his military commander Abu Ubaidah 9 al Banshiri in Lake Victoria, 1996? Yes or no. 10 "A Is that a question? 11 "Q Yes, it's a question. 12 "A Was I sent? 13 "Q Yes. 14 "A No. 15 "Q To investigate whether or not Abu Ubaidah Al Banshiri was 16 dead? 17 "A No. 18 "Q Was Harun Fazhil sent to investigate whether or not Abu 19 Ubaidah Al Banshiri had drowned in 1996? 20 "A I sent Harun Fawwaz there to check for Habib. 21 "Q And did you tell people that you had to go to Lake 22 Victoria to find out whether or not Abu Ubaidah Al Banshiri 23 had really drowned? 24 "A Abu Ubaidah Al Banshiri was not there. 25 "Q How do you know? 3207 1 "A Well, I never knew that he was there. 2 "Q And you told us you would recognize Abu Ubaidah Al 3 Banshiri if you saw him, correct? 4 "A Yes. 5 "Q Isn't Grand Jury Exhibit 6, the picture put in front of 6 you that you have identified as Habib, is that not a picture 7 of Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri under oath, sir? 8 "A I really can't recall if it's him or not. I never had 9 seen Abu Ubaidah Al Banshiri that often. I probably saw him 10 three or four times in my life. 11 "Q Let me show you Grand Jury Exhibit 49 with today's date, 12 9/16/98. It has a xerox of a passport contained in that 13 exhibit. Do you recognize that xerox of a passport? 14 "A The face, yes. 15 "Q And is that xerox of a passport something you maintain in 16 your file? 17 "A No. 18 "Q Who is the face in that passport? 19 "A That's Adel Habib. 20 "Q And Adel Habib, you understand, was an Egyptian person, 21 correct? 22 "A Yes. 23 "Q But he had a Dutch passport? 24 "A Right. 25 "Q Wasn't Abu Ubaidah Al Banshiri also known as Jalal? 3208 1 "A I never heard that. 2 "Q Didn't you also hear that Adel Habib was also known as 3 Jalal, J-A-L-A-L? 4 "A No. 5 "Q So your testimony is that you have never heard that Abu 6 Ubaidah was known by the nickname or alias as J-A-L-A-L, 7 correct? 8 "A Yes. 9 "Q You have never heard that Adel Habib was known by the 10 nickname Jalal, J-A-L-A-L; is that your testimony? 11 "A Right. 12 "Q OK, and you and Harun Fazhil went down to investigate the 13 drowning, you say, of Adel Habib, correct? 14 "A Correct. 15 "Q When you went there, did you obtain pictures of the 16 ferryboat that had sank in 1996? Let me show you what is 17 marked as Grand Jury Exhibit 61, and see if you recognize the 18 headlines about the boat sinking. 19 A I do. I recognize this. 20 "Q OK. Do you recognize the handwriting on Grand Jury 21 Exhibit 61 which has the name Fazul Abdullah Comoros? 22 "A No. 23 "Q First of all, who is Fazul Abdullah? 24 "A I think it's Harun Fazhil. 25 "Q You think that's Harun Fazhil? 3209 1 "A Right. 2 "Q Do you know whose handwriting that is that says Fazul 3 Abdullah? 4 "A No, I can't recognize it. 5 "Q Is that your handwriting? 6 "A No. 7 "Q Did you keep this article about the ferry sinking that 8 you investigated in your files? 9 "A No. 10 "Q For the record, you will agree with me that all these 11 exhibits are in cellophane, so we are not adding any 12 fingerprints. 13 To that end, let me show you Grand Jury Exhibit 63 14 with today's date, 9/16/96, which is in -- '98, which is in a 15 plastic container to preserve the fingerprints, and ask you if 16 you recognize there this Grand Jury Exhibit 63 which shows a 17 picture of the ship that sank in Lake Victoria? 18 "A Yes. 19 "Q And is that an article that you kept in your file after 20 you did the investigation of the boat sinking? 21 "A No, I never kept anything like that. 22 "Q Do you know who did the handwriting on that picture? 23 "A No. 24 "Q Do you know who had written Jalal with an arrow to the 25 room in which he stayed? 3210 1 "A No. 2 "Q Is that your handwriting? 3 "A No, that's not my handwriting. 4 "Q Is that Harun Fazhil's handwriting? 5 "A I don't know. I think he doesn't write English. 6 "Q So Harun Fawwaz doesn't write English? 7 "A No. 8 "Q So if there is English handwriting, one thing we know for 9 sure is that Harun Fazhil didn't write it, correct? 10 "A Correct. 11 "Q How many people were with you and Harun Fawwaz when you 12 were investigating the drowning of Adel Habib? 13 "A With us? 14 "Q It was just the two of you? 15 "A There were so many people over there. 16 "Q I am not talking about the Red Cross, who was trying to 17 save everyone who went down. To try to investigate the 18 drowning of Adel Habib, Was it just you and Harun Fawwaz? 19 "A He was there also. 20 "Q He was there, the person depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 21 2? 22 "A Yes, and his brother. 23 "Q And his brother? 24 "A Yes. 25 "Q Do you now remember what the name of the person depicted 3211 1 in Grand Jury Exhibit 2 might be? 2 "A I can't recall his name. 3 "Q Can you tell us the name of his brother? 4 "A I can't remember. 5 "Q When you did the investigation, did you learn that when 6 the person you called Habib drowned there was someone else in 7 his room? 8 "A Yes, his brother. 9 "Q The brother of the person in Grand Jury Exhibit 2? 10 "A Yes. 11 "Q And I take it that the brother of the person depicted in 12 Grand Jury Exhibit No. 2 did not drown? 13 "A No, he didn't. 14 "Q So you were speaking to the person who was the brother of 15 the person depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 2 about what 16 happened, correct? 17 "A Yes. 18 "Q And he was telling you about how the guy in his cabin 19 drowned, correct? 20 "A Yes. 21 "Q And it's your testimony under oath to this grand jury 22 that you were never told that the person that drowned was Abu 23 Ubaidah Al Banshiri. 24 "A Never. 25 "Q And you were never told that the person who drowned was 3212 1 also known as Jalal. 2 "A Never. 3 "Q Do you recall writing a report to be sent to Usama Bin 4 Laden to explain to him that in fact Abu Ubaidah Al Banshiri 5 had drowned? 6 "A No. 7 "Q Why don't we take a break here. We are going to take a 8 short break. Mr. El Hage, if you could step outside. The 9 grand jury reporter is going to take five minutes to rest her 10 hands and then we will reconvene shortly. You can wait in 11 that little entree room. 12 "Witness excused. 13 "Time noted 12:10 p.m. 14 "Time noted 12:20 p.m. 15 "Witness resumes. 16 "The foreperson: I remind you that you are still 17 under oath. 18 "Q Now, Mr. El Hage, before the break we had been discussing 19 certain files that Harun Fazhil had removed from your house 20 and tried to give to the person Ahmed, who was affiliated with 21 Mercy International. Do you recall what was in those files 22 besides the phone bills you mentioned? 23 "A Probably some letters to Slovakia and Sudan. 24 "Q Anything else you recall? 25 "A No. 3213 1 "Q How about documents concerning cars? 2 "A Cars? I don't recall that. 3 "Q Did you run a company or were you run a company known as 4 Asma, A-S-M-A that was involved in importing vehicles into 5 Kenya and Tanzania? 6 "A No. I think that's the company that his name we 7 mentioned before, was in England, al Fawwaz. He used to run 8 this company. 9 "Q Do you know any reason why Khalid al Fawwaz's company's 10 documents would be in your files? 11 A He left them with me when he left. 12 "Q Why did Khalid al Fawwaz leave the files for his car 13 business with you? 14 "A They put the whole business, and it did not work any 15 more. That company didn't work any more, so he just left them 16 with me. 17 "Q Did you do business with that company? Did you take over 18 the business? 19 "A No. 20 "Q You just kept the files? 21 "A Right. 22 "Q So in your files that Harun Fawwaz removed would be the 23 documents for Khalid al Fawwaz's business, Asma, A-S-A-M-A? 24 A Yes. 25 "Q And some phone bills, correct? 3214 1 "A Right. 2 "Q Were the phone bills for a land line phone or for 3 cellular phone? 4 "A I think both. 5 "Q There were some letters you recalled having to do with 6 the business with Slovakia. 7 "A Right. 8 "Q Any personal letters that you recall were in the file? 9 "A Maybe letters to Khalid al Fawwaz in England. 10 "Q Did you have documents concerning a fishing boat? 11 "A Fishing boat? I don't recall that. 12 "Q OK. Let me show you what has been marked as Grand Jury 13 Exhibit 60 with today's date, September 16, 1998, and it is in 14 a plastic envelope to preserve fingerprints, and it says 15 J-I-H-A-N Freighters. 16 "A Yes. 17 "Q And it talks about a shipment from the consigner Wadih El 18 Hage, Nairobi, to the consignee, and it says Mohamed, 19 M-O-H-A-M-E-D, O-U-D-E-H, or M. K-A-R-A-M-A. 20 "Do you recognize this document? 21 "A No. 22 "Q Do you agree that your name appears on the document, 23 Wadih El Hage? 24 "A Yes. 25 "Q Do you know of anyone else with the name Wadih El Hage? 3215 1 "A Just me. 2 "Q Just you. Do you know M. Karama? 3 "A Yes. 4 "Q Who is M. Karama? 5 "A He's a Kenyan who used to help me also with organization. 6 "Q Did he live in your house from time to time? 7 "A Yes. 8 "Q And Harun Fazhil, whose picture is Grand Jury Exhibit 7, 9 did he live in your house in Kenya? 10 "A Yes. 11 "Q So Harun worked with you and lived in your home, Correct? 12 "A He lived -- whenever I traveled, he lived with his wife 13 to take care of my family whenever I traveled. 14 "Q And when he worked for you, did he have access to your 15 computer? 16 "A Well, he was the main one who had access to my computer. 17 "Q So he was the guy who would write things on the computer 18 that you owned? 19 "A Right. 20 "Q Who is Mohamed Odeh? 21 "A I don't know. 22 "Q Have you ever heard that name before? 23 "A Odeh? I heard that name before, yes. I can't recall who 24 is it. 25 "Q Have you ever met Mohamed Odeh? 3216 1 "A Mohamed Odeh? I think it's Odeh. I think it's Mohamed 2 Ali Odeh. 3 "Q And that would be Mohamed A-L-I Odeh? 4 "A Yes. 5 "Q Where is Mohamed Ali Odeh from? 6 "A From Jordan. 7 "Q From Jordan? 8 "A Yes. 9 "Q Where did he grow up? In Jordan? 10 "A In Jordan, yes, or Palestine. I don't know. 11 "Q Would he be a Palestinian person who grew up in Jordan? 12 "A I don't recall. 13 "Q How did you meet Mohamed Ali Odeh? 14 "A He lived in the same complex that I lived in in Nairobi. 15 "Q In where? 16 "A Nairobi. 17 "Q Were you close to Mohamed Ali Odeh? 18 "A We met first time when he needed some help. He had four 19 girls and ran out of money, so he knew that I was from 20 Lebanon, so he came to my house and asked me if I can help him 21 because they had some financial problems. That's how it 22 started. 23 "Q What year was this? 24 "A The end of '96. 25 "Q And what kind of help did he want? 3217 1 "A He wanted some money to pay for his girls' school fee. 2 "Q Did you give him the money? 3 "A Yes. 4 "Q How much money did you give him? 5 "A I can't remember. Probably around 10,000 shillings. 6 "Q And would that roughly be a couple hundred dollars? 7 "A Yes, something like that. 8 "Q Had you met him before this occasion in 1996 where he 9 asked you for money? 10 "A No, never. 11 "Q Do you know if this Mohamed Ali Odeh knew Usama Bin 12 Laden? 13 "A I don't think so. 14 "Q Do you know if this Mohamed Ali Odeh ever went to 15 Afghanistan? 16 "A No. 17 "Q Do you know if this Mohamed Ali Odeh ever went to 18 Somalia? 19 "A No. 20 "Q Do you know if this Mohamed Ali Odeh ever had explosives 21 training? 22 "A No. 23 Q After you met him for the first time -- strike that. 24 "When you gave him the 10,000 shillings, in fact, was 25 that the first time you met Mohamed Ali Odeh? 3218 1 "A That was the first time, yes. 2 "Q How many times after that did you see Mohamed Ali Odeh? 3 "A After that, we became business partners. 4 "Q You became business partners? 5 "A Yes. 6 "Q What business were you partners in? 7 "A The stone business, gemstones. 8 "Q What kinds of gemstones? 9 "A All kinds, ruby, tanzanite, sapphire. 10 "Q What did Mohamed Odeh look like? 11 "A He's an old man in his -- I think 55 or 60 years old. 12 "Q 55 or 60 years old? 13 "A Yes. 14 "Q Let me show you Grand Jury Exhibit 5 with today's date, 15 September 16, 1998. Look at these again and tell the grand 16 jury whether or not you recognize Grand Jury Exhibit 5 as 17 Mohamed Ali Odeh? 18 "A No, that's not him. 19 "Q You do not recognize him? 20 "A No. 21 "Q Do you recognize Grand Jury Exhibit 5 as Mohamed Odeh? 22 "A I have never seen this person before. 23 "Q You never saw this person before? 24 "A Except on TV. 25 "Q Except on TV. You are aware that this person is charged 3219 1 with the bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Nairobi which killed 2 more than 250 people, are you not? 3 "A He was charged with that? 4 "Q Yes. 5 "A I don't recall. I remember seeing the picture on TV. 6 "Q It is your testimony to this grand jury under oath that 7 you have never met this person depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 8 5 in your entire life? 9 "A I don't recall meeting him at all. 10 "Q It is your testimony that this person, who I will advise 11 you whose name is Mohamed Odeh -- 12 A His name is Mohamed Odeh? 13 "Q -- is not the same person that appears on Grand Jury 14 Exhibit 60 with today's date, showing a document that you were 15 shipping something from you to Mohamed Odeh? 16 "A I never shipped anything like that. 17 "Q You never shipped anything like, pointing to Grand Jury 18 Exhibit 60, this document entitled J-I-H-A-N Freighters? 19 "A No. 20 "Q Did you ever ship anything to this person in -- depicted 21 in Grand Jury Exhibit 5? 22 "A Never. 23 "Q Do you recall attending a wedding of a person depicted in 24 Grand Jury Exhibit 5 in Kenya? 25 "A His wedding? 3220 1 "Q His wedding. 2 "A In Kenya, no. 3 "Q Do you recall driving the groom, the person depicted in 4 Grand Jury Exhibit 5 around after the wedding? Yes or no. 5 "A No, never seen this person. 6 "Q Do you recall being told that the person depicted in 7 Grand Jury Exhibit 5 works for Usama Bin Laden, had been to 8 Afghanistan, trained in explosives, had been to Somalia to 9 fight against United States troops? Yes or no. 10 "A No. 11 "Q Were you aware that Mohamed Odeh was in Kenya on behalf 12 of Usama Bin Laden? 13 "A No, no. 14 "Q Weren't you looking out for and giving advice to the 15 person depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 5, Mohamed Odeh, because 16 in fact you knew that this person was there on behalf of Usama 17 Bin Laden? 18 "A Say that again. 19 "Q Were you not looking out for the person depicted in Grand 20 Jury Exhibit 5, and by that I mean giving him help and advice, 21 because you knew that he was in Kenya and was a friend of 22 Usama Bin Laden? 23 "A No. 24 "Q Did you not provide an identity document to the person 25 depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 5, Mohamed Odeh, from your 3221 1 organization Help Africa People? Yes or no. 2 "A Did I give him any help from the organization? 3 "Q Yes. 4 "A No. 5 "Q Did you give him an identity document to use with his 6 name and that picture? 7 "A Never. 8 "Q Did you give him an identity document to use with any 9 picture of him? 10 "A I don't remember seeing this person before or this 11 picture. 12 "Q How many weddings did you attend in Kenya while you lived 13 there? 14 "A Three or four. 15 "Q Three or four. And did any of the grooms look anything 16 like the person depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 5? 17 "A I don't recall. 18 "Q As you sit here today, you are telling this grand jury 19 you have no recollection of the person depicted in Grand Jury 20 Exhibit 5? 21 "A Yes, sir, I don't. 22 "Q You have no recollection? 23 "A Right." 24 THE COURT: All right, we will break there and we 25 will resume on Monday. Have a pleasant weekend. Stay 3222 1 healthy. Remember not to read or listen to anything about 2 this case. We are adjourned until Monday morning. 3 (Jury excused) 4 THE COURT: Anything before Monday? Any reason why 5 we should meet early Monday morning? All right then, we are 6 adjourned until Monday. 7 (Proceedings adjourned until Monday, March 26, 2001, 8 at 10:00 a.m.) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3223 1 2 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 3 Witness D X RD RX 4 ROBERT MIRANDA..........3083 3084 3134 3138 5 ABIGAIL SEDA............3141 6 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS 7 Exhibit No. Received 8 451C .......................................3144 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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