26 March 2001
Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of
New York; (212) 805-0300.
This is the transcript of Day 22 of the trial, 26 March 2001.
See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm
3224
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 ------------------------------x
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
4 v. S(7) 98 Cr. 1023
5 USAMA BIN LADEN, et al.,
6 Defendants.
7 ------------------------------x
8
New York, N.Y.
9 March 26, 2001
10:00 a.m.
10
11
12 Before:
13 HON. LEONARD B. SAND,
14 District Judge
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3225
1 APPEARANCES
2 MARY JO WHITE
United States Attorney for the
3 Southern District of New York
BY: PATRICK FITZGERALD
4 KENNETH KARAS
PAUL BUTLER
5 Assistant United States Attorneys
6
SAM A. SCHMIDT
7 JOSHUA DRATEL
KRISTIAN K. LARSEN
8 Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage
9 ANTHONY L. RICCO
EDWARD D. WILFORD
10 CARL J. HERMAN
SANDRA A. BABCOCK
11 Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh
12 FREDRICK H. COHN
DAVID P. BAUGH
13 Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali
14 JEREMY SCHNEIDER
DAVID STERN
15 DAVID RUHNKE
Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3226
1 (Trial resumes; jury not present)
2 THE COURT: If we do not sit on Wednesday or
3 Thursday, will we nevertheless need interpreters?
4 Unless they have a certain number of days' notice,
5 they are fully compensated. Money is no object, but one
6 doesn't really want to waste money.
7 MR. FITZGERALD: Unless clients intend to be present
8 on the Thursday 10:00 conference, they do not appear to be
9 necessary.
10 MR. COHN: On Thursday my client wants to be there.
11 We've checked with him.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, just a housekeeping -- more
14 than a housekeeping matter. As I understand it, there are no
15 interpreters who have arrived yet. I have spoken to my client
16 about it. He's comfortable with proceeding. I understand
17 there are relatives of victims here who will not have an
18 interpreter. It's not a problem for us. We can proceed.
19 THE COURT: Does anybody have any information about
20 the Swahili interpreters?
21 MR. RUHNKE: Still not quite 10:00, your Honor.
22 MR. FITZGERALD: I'll inquire.
23 THE COURT: The next order of business is going to be
24 the continuation of the --
25 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, Judge.
3227
1 (Pause)
2 MR. FITZGERALD: The interpreter is arriving.
3 THE COURT: We hear the interpreter is arriving so
4 that matter is resolved.
5 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: All right. The jury is on its way.
7 I thought all the jurors were here. Apparently one
8 juror has not yet arrived, so we'll have to give some more
9 time.
10 (Pause)
11 THE COURT: All the jurors are present and they will
12 be coming in.
13 A juror requested that we take more frequent breaks
14 because of his medical condition, of which we were apprised
15 during the jury selection process, and so we will break every
16 hour and a half. That will not be a major problem.
17 (Jury present)
18 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
19 THE JURY: Good morning.
20 THE COURT: I have received a request for more
21 frequent breaks during the course of the trial and I will
22 honor that request, and if I get carried away or absorbed in
23 the proceedings and anybody wants a break for any reason, just
24 raise your hand and we'll declare a break. Glad to
25 accommodate that.
3228
1 Is the next orders of business the resumption of the
2 reading of the Grand Jury minutes?
3 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: You recall we're reading the Grand Jury
5 minutes of appearance of the defendant El Hage before the
6 Grand Jury and this is still on September 16, 1998.
7 MR. FRANCISCO: Resuming at page 70, line 8:
8 "Q. Are you familiar with a company known as T-A-H-E-E-R
9 Limited?
10 "A. Yes.
11 "Q. Why don't you tell you the Grand Jury what Taheer Ltd.
12 is?
13 "A. It's a company that was formed by this person here.
14 "Q. And you're pointing to the person depicted in Grand Jury
15 Exhibit 2, with today's date, correct?
16 "A. Right.
17 "Q. Who else was involved in the company known as Taheer
18 Ltd.?
19 "A. Adel Habib.
20 "Q. Abdel Habib.
21 "The person you identified in the photo depicted as
22 Grand Jury Exhibit 6 with today's date?
23 "A. That's true.
24 "Q. So those two gentlemen, the person from Grand Jury
25 Exhibit 2 and the person from Grand Jury Exhibit 6, were in
3229
1 business together at Taheer Ltd.?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. What kind of business?
4 "A. I think mining.
5 "Q. Mining?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Where?
8 "A. In Tanzania.
9 "Q. And when they did mining in Tanzania, were you involved
10 in business with them?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. Why did you have some of the documents for Taheer Ltd. in
13 your files?
14 "A. I never had any of that.
15 "Q. Did Taheer Ltd. when it engaged in mining, did it use
16 explosives in order to carry out the mining?
17 "A. I don't know. I never knew any of their work, any of the
18 details of their work.
19 "Q. But yet when the person in Grand Jury Exhibit 6, Adel
20 Habib, drowned, you were selected to go investigate with the
21 person depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 2 and with Harun,
22 correct?
23 "A. What do you mean, I was selected?
24 "Q. You were asked to go to the scene of the incident to find
25 out whether or not Adel Habib had drowned, correct?
3230
1 "A. I decided to go there.
2 "Q. Why don't you tell the Grand Jury why you decided to go
3 investigate the ferry sinking.
4 "A. Because he was one of my colleagues in the agency.
5 "Q. And you didn't know how he carried out his mining
6 businesses, whether or not he used explosives?
7 "A. No, I did not.
8 "Q. Let me show you what's Grand Jury Exhibit 44 for today's
9 date, which states "To whom it may concern: Adel Habib.
10 Mr. A. Habib was on the ship MV B-u-k-o-b-a that sank, killing
11 over 500 people."
12 "Do you recognize that document?
13 "A. No, I don't remember seeing it.
14 "Q. You don't recognize Grand Jury Exhibit 44?
15 "A. No.
16 "Q. You went to investigate the drowning of Adel Habib,
17 correct?
18 "A. Correct.
19 "Q. Did you obtain a document to verify that Adel Habib had
20 drowned?
21 "A. No, I never did.
22 "Q. Did you know who did?
23 "A. Probably his family or his business associate.
24 "Q. Okay. And you will agree with me that this is in a
25 plastic cover protected from fingerprints as we look at it?
3231
1 "A. Right.
2 "Q. And you never touched that document before, right?
3 "A. I don't remember seeing it.
4 "Q. Why don't you tell the Grand Jury who Abu Badr is. And
5 I'll write that name on the list in front of you.
6 "Do you recognize that name?
7 "A. I think he's my brother-in-law.
8 "Q. You think he's your brother-in-law?
9 "A. Yes.
10 "Q. Why don't you tell us what your brother-in-law's name is.
11 "A. Not brother-in-law, he's the husband of my sister-in-law.
12 "Q. Why don't you tell us the name of the husband of your
13 sister-in-law.
14 "A. A-t-i-f A-b-u L-i-a-n.
15 "Q. And he's also known as Abu Badr to you?
16 "A. His son's name is Badr.
17 "Q. His son's name is Badr?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. And Abu means father of?
20 "A. Correct.
21 "Q. Why don't you tell us who Jeff is.
22 "A. Jeff?
23 "Q. Jeff, J-e-f-f.
24 "A. I don't recall this name.
25 "Q. How about Mr. Jeff there, see if that helps, and I'm
3232
1 writing this all on Grand Jury Exhibit 66.
2 "A. I don't recall this.
3 "Q. Okay, the next name is Abu S-u-l-i-m-a-n.
4 "A. Abu Suliman, I recall a Saudi guy who was in Afghanistan.
5 "Q. A Saudi guy in Afghanistan?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Do you know where he is now?
8 "A. No, I don't recall where he's at.
9 "Q. When was the last time you spoke to or saw Abu Suliman?
10 "A. Somewhere in the late '80s.
11 "Q. Do you know of anyone that you have spoken to in the
12 1990s that you called Abu Suliman?
13 "A. No, I don't.
14 "Q. Okay. I'll write these darker and I'll ask you, do you
15 know an Abu Mohamed, A-b-u M-o-h-a-m-e-d, also on Grand Jury
16 Exhibit 66?
17 "A. Abu Mohamed.
18 "Q. Abu Mohamed.
19 "A. I've had heard this name many times, different people. I
20 can't recall anyone recently.
21 "Q. Did you ever speak to Abu Mohamed on the telephone?
22 "A. I don't recall.
23 "Q. Did you ever write letters or exchange letters with Abu
24 Mohamed?
25 "A. I don't recall.
3233
1 "Q. How about N-A-W-A-W-I? Do you know who Nawawi is?
2 "A. Nawawi? I recall one person in Sudan.
3 "Q. Okay. Tell us about the person in Sudan who is known as
4 Nawawi.
5 "A. Nothing much to tell you. He's an Egyptian.
6 "Q. Egyptian?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. And how did you meet this Egyptian fellow named Nawawi?
9 "A. I was working in the same company in Sudan.
10 "Q. Which company was that?
11 "A. Wadi al Aqiq?
12 "Q. And what was he doing for Wadi al Aqiq?
13 "A. I don't recall. One of the jobs over there, he was
14 taking care of one of the jobs over there.
15 "No, there, not here.
16 "Q. You left Sudan in 1994?
17 "A. Yes.
18 "Q. Did you stay in touch with Nawawi after you left Sudan?
19 "A. Probably talked to him over the phone a couple of times.
20 "Q. And when you talked to him over the phone a couple of
21 times, where were you living?
22 "A. In Nairobi.
23 "Q. And where was Nawawi living?
24 "A. I think in Sudan.
25 "Q. Did you ever call him anyplace other than in Sudan?
3234
1 "A. No.
2 "Q. What does the word 'Nawawi' mean in Arabic?
3 "A. I don't know. It's a famous name for a scholar.
4 "Q. Famous name for a scholar, did you say?
5 "A. Yes.
6 "Q. Did you ever talk to Nawawi while you were in the --
7 while you, Wadih El Hage, were in the United States?
8 "A. After I came back here?
9 "Q. At any time did you ever call Nawawi while you were in
10 the United States?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. Did you ever see Nawawi while you were in the United
13 States?
14 "A. No.
15 "Q. Did you ever hear of Nawawi living in the United States?
16 "A. No.
17 "Q. Did you ever hear of Nawawi traveling to the United
18 States?
19 "A. No.
20 "Q. Do you know a person by the name of Ihab Mohamed Ali, and
21 I'm writing that again on Grand Jury Exhibit 66 and I'm
22 spelling it as I-H-A-B M-O-H-A-M-E-D A-L-I.
23 "A. Yes, I know Ihab, but I don't know the other names. I
24 remember Ihab.
25 "Q. Ihab?
3235
1 "A. Yes.
2 "Q. Who is Ihab?
3 "A. He's an Egyptian.
4 "Q. And where do you know Ihab the Egyptian from?
5 "A. I knew him from Arlington, Texas in '92.
6 "Q. Did he live there at the time?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. Did you ever see Ihab the Egyptian in Sudan?
9 "A. In Sudan? No.
10 "Q. Did you ever see him in Kenya?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. When was the last time you had contact with that Ihab the
13 Egyptian?
14 "A. I saw him a month or two ago in Arlington. He moved out
15 of Arlington but was visiting."
16 THE COURT: He moved to Arlington but was visiting.
17 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I believe there was a
18 stipulation as to that one sentence, that that would be
19 corrected. So, apologize.
20 "Q. Where does he live now?
21 "A. I don't know.
22 "Q. Does he live in Texas?
23 "A. I don't know. I can find out.
24 "Q. Do you know of him ever living in Florida?
25 "A. I don't know.
3236
1 "Q. Do you know any other Ihab besides Ihab the Egyptian?
2 "A. No.
3 "Q. The last time you went to Pakistan -- strike that. In
4 the years 1994, '95, '96, '97 and '98, how many times have you
5 traveled to either Pakistan or Afghanistan?
6 "A. '94 through --
7 "Q. The present.
8 "A. The present, twice. To Pakistan.
9 "Q. And both times to Pakistan?
10 "A. Right.
11 "Q. Did you ever cross into Afghanistan?
12 "A. No.
13 "Q. When you were in Afghanistan, did you see Usama Bin
14 Laden?
15 "A. No.
16 "Q. Did you see any of his representatives?
17 "A. I saw one.
18 "Q. Who?
19 "A. His name is Abu Yasser.
20 "Q. Abu Yasser?
21 "A. Yes.
22 "Q. What nationality is Abu Yasser?
23 "A. He's an Algerian.
24 "Q. And why did you see Abu Yasser, the Algerian?
25 "A. I happened to meet him in Islamabad.
3237
1 "Q. Did he give you any messages from anyone?
2 "A. No.
3 "Q. Did you give any messages to Abu Yasser to give to
4 anyone?
5 "A. No.
6 "Q. Did you meet Abu Hafs when you were in Pakistan?
7 "A. No.
8 "Q. Did you send any messages to Abu Hafs while you were in
9 Pakistan?
10 "A. No.
11 "Q. Did you tell anyone you were going to see Abu Hafs while
12 you were in Pakistan?
13 "A. No.
14 "Q. Did you tell anyone you were going to see Taysir,
15 T-A-Y-S-I-R, or T-A-Y-S-E-E-R, as the names are spelled on
16 Grand Jury Exhibit 66?
17 "A. No.
18 "Q. Let me show you again Grand Jury Exhibit 65, the person
19 you told the Grand Jury you've seen once in New York perhaps
20 at the Services Office in the 1980's, correct?
21 "A. Correct.
22 "Q. Do you know the name, sir, Ali, A-L-I M-O-H-A-M-E-D?
23 "A. Ali Mohamed?
24 "Q. Yes, I'll write that on Grand Jury Exhibit 66, Ali
25 Mohamed, A-L-I M-O-H-A-M-E-D.
3238
1 "Do you recognize that name?
2 "A. I can't recall.
3 "Q. Sir, isn't it a fact that the person depicted in Grand
4 Jury Exhibit 65 is Ali Mohamed, yes or no?
5 "A. I don't know.
6 "Q. Isn't it a fact that the person depicted in Grand Jury
7 Exhibit 65 is also known to you as Jeff?
8 "A. I don't know.
9 "Q. Yes or no, you don't know?
10 "A. No.
11 "Q. Isn't it a fact, sir, that you are known to the person
12 depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 65 as Norman?
13 "A. I don't know.
14 "Q. Let me write out one more name, Wa'da Norman, W-A,
15 apostrophe, D-A, Norman, N-O-R-M-A-N.
16 "Who is that?
17 "A. I don't know.
18 "Q. You don't know?
19 "A. No.
20 "Q. And do you know anyone in California?
21 "A. Anyone in California.
22 "Q. Yes.
23 "A. My sister is in California.
24 "Q. Do you know any men in California?
25 "A. M-U-S-A-L-A-M.
3239
1 "Q. And who is Musalam?
2 "A. He's a friend of mine. I've known since I was in
3 Louisiana, in school.
4 "Q. What does he do in California for work?
5 "A. He's a technician. He works with the Transportation
6 Department.
7 "Q. Is Musalam the person depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 65?
8 "A. Is that him?
9 "Q. Yes.
10 "A. No.
11 "Q. Now, sir, are you familiar -- did you have a post office
12 box when you lived in Nairobi?
13 "A. Yes.
14 "Q. Do you recall the number of the post office box?
15 "A. No, but I probably have it written somewhere. I can't
16 remember.
17 "Q. Would you remember it if you heard it?
18 "A. Most probably.
19 "Q. Would it be post office box 72239?
20 "A. Correct.
21 "Q. And when did you get the post office box known as 72239?
22 "A. In '94.
23 "Q. And how long did you keep it for?
24 "A. Till the end of '97.
25 "Q. And was that for personal mail or business mail or both?
3240
1 "A. That's for the relief agency.
2 "Q. Let me show you what has been marked as Grand Jury
3 Exhibit 48 with today's date, and it's an envelope dated March
4 17, 1995.
5 "Now, that would be a day that you were living in
6 Kenya, correct?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. And it's directed to Mr. Wa'da Norman, P.O. Box 72239.
9 That would be your P.O. box, correct?
10 "A. Yes.
11 "Q. Nairobi, Kenya?
12 "A. Yes.
13 "Q. What did you do when you opened your post office box and
14 found a letter addressed to Wa'da Norman?
15 "A. I don't remember seeing this letter.
16 "Q. Who is Wa'da Norman?
17 "A. I don't know.
18 "Q. Is it you?
19 "A. No.
20 "Q. Are you aware, sir, that the person depicted in Grand
21 Jury Exhibit 65 is known as Ali Mohamed and that at that time
22 he worked at the address listed on the return envelope,
23 Westinghouse Electric Corporation, Sunnyvale, California; are
24 you aware of that, sir?
25 "A. Am I aware of what?
3241
1 "Q. That the person depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 65 worked
2 at the return address listed on the exhibit marked Government
3 Exhibit 48.
4 "A. No.
5 "Q. You have no idea, then, why whoever it was that sent this
6 letter would send it to Wa'da Norman at your post office box?
7 "A. I don't have any idea.
8 "Q. Are you still telling this grand jury that you are not
9 known as Norman or Wa'da Norman?
10 "A. Yes, I'm not Norman.
11 "Q. That's not your code name within the Usama Bin Laden
12 organization, is it?
13 "A. I was never in his organization.
14 "Q. Did you ever have a code name from Usama Bin Laden?
15 "A. No.
16 "Q. Have you ever written any letters and signed them with
17 the name Norman at the bottom?
18 "A. No, never.
19 "Q. Let me show you what has been marked as Grand Jury
20 Exhibit 42. Again, it's in a plastic envelope to protect for
21 fingerprints, and I'll ask you if you recognize what that
22 document is.
23 "A. Do you want me to read it?
24 "Q. Read it and tell me if you recognize it.
25 "For the benefit of the Grand Jury, I'll hand out
3242
1 copies of that document.
2 "Having looked at Grand Jury Exhibit 42, do you
3 recognize it, sir?
4 "A. No.
5 "Q. Do you recognize the handwriting?
6 "A. Very close to mine.
7 "Q. Very close to yours?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. Could it be yours?
10 "A. I don't think so.
11 "Q. Have you ever seen handwriting that close to your
12 handwriting in your entire life on a letter you did not write?
13 "A. I have.
14 "Q. Who writes like that besides you?
15 "A. I don't know who is it, but I have seen handwriting very
16 close to mine.
17 "Q. Okay. Now, look at that document.
18 "Do you know Nawawi, the name N-A-W-A-W-I?
19 "A. No.
20 "Q. You mentioned you knew a Nawawi in Sudan?
21 "A. Yes, that's true?
22 "Q. Let me ask you and we'll finish for lunch before we go
23 through this letter.
24 "Dear Mr. Nawawi." Would that be to a person who
25 lives in Florida who is a friend of Usama Bin Laden?
3243
1 "A. You're asking me?
2 "Q. Yes.
3 "A. I don't know.
4 "Q. You don't know.
5 "Continuing on: The middle where it says, 'Tayseer
6 and his friends are still hiking and they enjoy it very
7 much.'?
8 "Is Tayseer a reference to Abu Hafs al Masry, one of
9 the military commanders for Usama Bin Laden, yes or no?
10 "A. I don't know.
11 "Q. When it says, 'They called me yesterday,' it continues,
12 'from a place where they were having a curry meal,' that was
13 an indication that Abu Hafs is in training somewhere near
14 India?
15 "A. I don't know.
16 "Q. Continuing on: 'The fishing business is all right.'
17 "Do you know who was in the fishing business in
18 Kenya?
19 "A. Anyone in the fishing business? Yeah, I know some Kenyan
20 people in the fishing business.
21 "Q. What are the names of the people in the fishing business?
22 "A. I don't recall any right now.
23 "Q. Was one of the people in the fishing business a person
24 depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 5 with today's date?
25 "A. I don't know.
3244
1 "Q. When it continues on, 'Please pass our best regards to
2 Mr. Jeff,' did you understand that to be a message to say
3 something to the person depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 65?
4 "A. No, I do not understand that.
5 "Q. You have never seen this letter before?
6 "A. No.
7 "Q. You did not write this letter?
8 "A. No.
9 "Q. And the letter which is in a plastic covering has never
10 been touched by you, as far as you remember, correct?
11 "A. Correct.
12 "Q. Okay, you have no reason to believe your fingerprints
13 would be on this letter?
14 "A. I don't think so, no.
15 "Q. Why don't we break for lunch and pick up at 2:00.
16 "(Witness excused.)
17 "(Time noted: 1:00 p.m.)
18 "(luncheon recess.)
19 "Certificate. State of New York, County of New York.
20 "I, Tracy A. Thompson, CSR, hereby certify that the
21 foregoing is a true and accurate transcript, to the best of my
22 skill and ability, from my stenographic notes of this
23 proceeding.
24 "Tracy A. Thompson, Acting Grand Jury Reporter."
25 Government Exhibit 420B.
3245
1 "(Colloquy precedes.)
2 "(Time noted: 2:07 p.m.)
3 "(Witness enters room.)"
4 MR. FITZGERALD: Start on page 2.
5 MR. FRANCISCO: "THE FOREPERSON: I remind you you're
6 are still under oath.
7 "Wadih El Hage, resumed and testified further as
8 follows:
9 "Q. Now, Mr. El Hage, over the lunch break or being that the
10 lunch break has passed, are there any answers that you wish to
11 change to the sworn testimony you have given this Grand Jury?
12 "A. No, nothing I want to change.
13 "Q. Okay. Now, let me approach you with what has been marked
14 as Grand Jury Exhibit 67 and Grand Jury Exhibit 68, both of
15 which bear today's date of 9/16/98, and ask you if you
16 recognize either of these documents.
17 "A. No. No.
18 "Q. Okay. Now, you have indicated that you do not recognize
19 either Grand Jury Exhibit 67 or 68?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. Now, if I advise you that these documents were obtained
22 with dozens of other documents from the same company which is
23 marked in the lower left corner called Chemko, C-H-E-M-K-O,
24 indicating an address in Slovakia, and then on the right there
25 are some phones numbers, do you remember ever dealing with the
3246
1 company called Chemko in Slovakia?
2 "A. No.
3 "Q. Did you ever visit the company called Chemko in Slovakia?
4 "A. Did I ever visit them?
5 "Q. Yes.
6 "A. I visited many companies there.
7 "Q. Many companies in Slovakia?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. Were any of them called Chemko?
10 "A. I don't recall. It could be one of them, but I don't
11 recall.
12 "Q. It could be?
13 "A. Yes.
14 "Q. Did you visit any chemical companies -- if you could
15 speak up because the Grand Jurors in the back are having
16 trouble.
17 "Did you visit any chemical companies when you were
18 in Slovakia?
19 "A. Yes.
20 "Q. Okay. What chemical companies did you visit when you
21 went there?
22 "A. There was a company that produced Bitumin. It's the
23 scientific name for asphalt. It's used for roads.
24 "Q. Would that be B-I-T-U-M-I-N?
25 "A. B-I-T-U-M-I-N.
3247
1 "Q. And why did you want Bitumin, asphalt?
2 "A. For the company in Sudan.
3 "Q. Whose company in Sudan?
4 "A. Usama Bin Laden.
5 "Q. So Usama Bin Laden in Sudan wanted Bitumin or asphalt
6 and, therefore, you went to a chemical company in Slovakia?
7 "A. Right.
8 "Q. Do you recall when it was that you went to this chemical
9 company in Slovakia on behalf of Usama Bin Laden's company?
10 "A. I think in '93.
11 "Q. 1993?
12 "A. Maybe the end of '92 or around '92, '93.
13 "Q. And where were you living when you went to visit this
14 chemical company in Slovakia?
15 "A. Where did I stay there?
16 "Q. No, where were you living at the time?
17 "A. In Sudan.
18 "Q. In Sudan.
19 "And how many visits did you make to this chemical
20 company in Slovakia?
21 "A. I can't recall. Probably once or twice. I visited more
22 than one company checking their prices and their conditions.
23 "Q. Was it more than one chemical company?
24 "A. Right.
25 "Q. Okay. Approximately how many chemical companies did you
3248
1 visit in Slovakia?
2 "A. Five or six.
3 "Q. Did you visit any chemical companies outside of Slovakia?
4 "A. In Russia.
5 "Q. In Russia?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Where in Russia?
8 "A. Moscow and another city, I can't recall the name.
9 "Q. And how many chemical companies did you visit in Moscow?
10 "A. Three or four.
11 "Q. And where was the other city in Russia?
12 "A. I think south of Moscow, to the south of little bit.
13 "Q. Did you travel by train, plane or car?
14 "A. Train.
15 "Q. How long a train ride was it from Moscow to the other
16 Russian city?
17 "A. It was about 36 hours.
18 "Q. And did you make any purchases in Moscow or the other
19 Russian city of chemicals?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. Did you obtain information about what the prices were for
22 the chemicals?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q. And who did you give the information to?
25 "A. To the company.
3249
1 "Q. And who at the company did you give the information to,
2 what person?
3 "A. I think it was Abu Fadhl.
4 "Q. Abu Fadhl al Makkee, the fellow in Saudi Arabia?
5 "A. Right.
6 "Q. And did you make any purchases of chemicals when you were
7 in Slovakia?
8 "A. No.
9 "Q. Did you obtain information about the prices of chemicals
10 when you were in Slovakia?
11 "A. Yes.
12 "Q. And what did you do with the information?
13 "A. The same thing, I gave it to Abu Fadhl.
14 "Q. Abu Fadhl?
15 "A. Yes.
16 "Q. And what year did you visit Russia?
17 "A. '92.
18 "Q. And did you visit Moscow or any other city on the same
19 trip?
20 "A. Yes.
21 "Q. How many times have you been to Russia?
22 "A. Twice.
23 "Q. When was the other time that you went to Russia?
24 "A. Probably in '93. It could be the end of '92, but maybe
25 in '93.
3250
1 "Q. And what was the reason for the other trip you made to
2 Russia?
3 "A. Same thing, for purchasing things.
4 "Q. Chemicals?
5 "A. Chemicals and other equipment. I purchased trucks there.
6 "Q. So trucks and chemicals?
7 "A. Well, Bitumin is manufactured by chemical companies.
8 "Q. Did you purchase any other chemicals?
9 "A. No.
10 "Q. Did you ask about the prices of any other chemicals?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. The company that you purchased or were interested in
13 finding information for, was that Al Hijra Construction?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. And Al Hijra Construction was a company owned by Usama
16 Bin Laden in Sudan, correct?
17 "A. Yes.
18 "Q. And that was building a road going from Khartoum to Port
19 Sudan, correct?
20 "A. Right.
21 "Q. Is that called the Challenge Road?
22 "A. Right.
23 "Q. When you build those roads, you not only need Bitumin to
24 build the ground, you also need explosives to clear the path
25 for the road, correct?
3251
1 "A. I guess so.
2 "Q. You guess so?
3 "A. Yes.
4 "Q. You're aware that they need Bitumin, but you're guessing
5 that they need explosives; is that your testimony?
6 "A. I was asked to bring Bitumin. I was never asked to find
7 out anything about explosives.
8 "Q. So when you went to Slovakia and Russia on behalf of Al
9 Hijra Construction, you confined yourself to looking for
10 Bitumin, but not explosives, is that your testimony?
11 "A. Yes.
12 "Q. Did they ask you to look for any other chemicals besides
13 Bitumin, any other chemical products?
14 "A. No.
15 "Q. Do you know if Chemko, the name on Grand Jury Exhibit 67
16 and 68, was the name of any of the companies you visited in
17 Slovakia?
18 "A. It's possible. I can't recall for sure.
19 "Q. It's possible that you did visit Chemko in Slovakia?
20 "A. Yes.
21 "Q. Do you know if you called those phone numbers listed in
22 the lower right corner of Grand Jury Exhibits 67 and 68?
23 "A. No.
24 "Q. No, you didn't, or no, you don't know?
25 "A. I don't know.
3252
1 "Q. Do you know of any reason why you would need nitric acid
2 on behalf of your business dealings?
3 "A. No.
4 "Q. Are you aware that nitric acid can be used in the
5 manufacture of explosives?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Were you ever asked by anyone to find out information on
8 nitric acid?
9 "A. Was I ever asked?
10 "Q. Yes.
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. Do you know any reason why you would need to find out
13 information about DAM, D-A-M, 390?
14 "A. No.
15 "Q. Are you aware DAM 390 is a liquid nitrogenous fertilizer
16 which is a mixture of ammonium nitric and urea solutions?
17 "A. Am I aware of what?
18 "Q. Are you aware that that is what DAM 390 is?
19 "A. No, it's the first time I heard this name.
20 "Q. First time.
21 "Did you have any reason in your business to acquire
22 anything that was made from nitrogenous fertilizer or urea
23 compounds?
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. Why did you need to acquire nitrogenous fertilizer and
3253
1 urea compounds in your business?
2 "A. For the agricultural company.
3 "Q. Okay. What agricultural company was that?
4 "A. I don't remember the name.
5 "Q. Would it be Al Themar Al Mubaraka, A-L T-H-E-M-A-R A-L
6 M-U-B-A-R-A-K-A?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. Is that the correct spelling?
9 "A. Right.
10 "Q. Does that mean blessed fruit?
11 "A. Yes.
12 "Q. And Themar Al Mubaraka was owned by Usama Bin Laden,
13 correct?
14 "A. Correct.
15 "Q. And did he send you to obtain fertilizer compounds on
16 behalf of that company?
17 "A. That's true.
18 "Q. In what countries did Usama Bin Laden send you to obtain
19 those compounds?
20 "A. Same countries, Russia and Slovakia.
21 "Q. Was that on the same trip or different trips?
22 "A. Same trip.
23 "Q. So now you're on the trip looking for Bitumin and
24 nitrogenous fertilizer and urea, but not explosives?
25 "A. Right.
3254
1 "Q. Anything else you recall you were looking for in those
2 trips besides Bitumin, nitrogenous fertilizer, urea and
3 trucks?
4 "A. Tractors.
5 "Q. Tractors?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Anything else?
8 "A. I can't recall.
9 "Q. When you went to Slovakia while you were living in Kenya,
10 did you go back to the same companies you went to on your
11 prior visit?
12 "A. Yes.
13 "Q. Did that include going to some of the chemical companies
14 you had visited?
15 "A. No.
16 "Q. Did you make any efforts on the trip to Slovakia while
17 you lived in Kenya to obtain Bitumin?
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. Did you make any efforts to obtain fertilizer or urea?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. Did you make any efforts to obtain any chemicals when you
22 went on your trip to Slovakia from Kenya?
23 "A. No.
24 "Q. How many trips total did you make to Slovakia?
25 "A. Altogether?
3255
1 "Q. Yes.
2 "A. I think four. Four trips.
3 "Q. Why don't you tell the Grand Jury what years you made the
4 trips to Slovakia.
5 "A. What years? '92 and '93, I think twice in '93. And the
6 one that I was in Kenya, either the end of '94 or in '95.
7 "Q. And was the sole purpose of your trip while you were in
8 Kenya in '94 and '95 to get tractor parts?
9 "A. Yes.
10 "Q. Did you visit any chemical companies on that trip?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. The trips you made in '92, the one trip you made in 1992,
13 what was the purpose of that trip?
14 "A. For the Bitumin, trucks and tractors.
15 "Q. How about the nitrogenous fertilizer, ammonium nitrate
16 and urea, did you look for any of that on your trip in 1992?
17 "A. In '92, I can't recall, but I'm sure it was on the second
18 trip.
19 "Q. The second trip would be the first trip in 1993?
20 "A. Yes.
21 "Q. And you went looking for ammonium nitrate?
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. Did you look for urea?
24 "A. Urea, right.
25 "Q. And what else did you look for on that trip?
3256
1 "A. Also Bitumin, and I visited the tractor's factory.
2 "Q. How about the second trip in 1993, what were you looking
3 for?
4 "A. That was the second trip.
5 "Q. The third trip, tell us about the third trip, what your
6 purpose was?
7 "A. It was mainly for the tractors and tractor parts.
8 "Q. It was mainly for tractor and tractor parts.
9 "Was there anything else you were looking for on the
10 third trip?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. Had you ever visited any chemical companies outside of
13 Slovakia or Russia?
14 "A. No.
15 "Q. Have you ever visited any chemical companies in Sudan?
16 "A. No.
17 "Q. Are you aware of any companies that manufacture chemicals
18 in Sudan?
19 "A. No.
20 "Q. Do you know a person by the name of Abu H-a-j-e-r A-l
21 I-r-a-q-u-i.
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. And what did Abu Hajer al Iraqui do for a living?
24 "A. He was the president for one of the companies, Wadi al
25 Aqiq?
3257
1 "Q. Which company? Wadi al Aqiq; is that correct?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. And you also worked for Wadi al Aqiq?
4 "A. Right.
5 "Q. Did you report to Abu Hajer?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. In what years did you report to Abu Hajer?
8 "A. What years? I think the end of '92 and '93.
9 "Q. And were you reporting to Abu Hajer al Iraqui at the time
10 you were wake making the trips to Slovakia and Russia to
11 obtain tractors, Bitumin, and at times nitrogenous fertilizer?
12 "A. Right.
13 "Q. When was the last time you spoke to Abu Hajer al Iraqui?
14 "A. '94.
15 "Q. Where were you?
16 "A. Before I left Sudan.
17 "Q. Once you left Sudan, did you ever see Abu Hajer again in
18 person?
19 "A. I don't recall seeing him anywhere.
20 "Q. Did you ever see Abu Hajer in Kenya?
21 "A. No.
22 "Q. Did you ever speak to Abu Hajer by telephone after you
23 left Kenya, after you left Sudan Kenya in 1994?
24 "A. Yes, I did.
25 "Q. How often?
3258
1 "A. I can't -- I don't recall. I probably talked to him two,
2 three times.
3 "Q. And what was the reason for your conversation with Abu
4 Hajer al Iraqui after you left Sudan?
5 "A. Just discussing a few things that I was doing in Sudan
6 and the companies.
7 "Q. Did you conduct any business with Abu Hajer after you
8 left Sudan in 1994?
9 "A. No. Other than these things, he was calling me to ask
10 about a few things after I left Sudan.
11 "Q. Like what?
12 "A. Different things that we did in Sudan with those
13 companies, whether it was the construction company or the
14 agricultural company.
15 "Q. Did he ever talk to you about your efforts to obtain
16 fertilizer, ammonium nitrate or chemicals on behalf of the
17 Usama Bin Laden companies once you left Sudan?
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. Do you know where Abu Hajer is now?
20 "A. No, I don't.
21 "Q. When you went to Slovakia, while you were living in the
22 Sudan, were you in touch with Abu Hajer about that trip?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q. And what was your discussion with Abu Hajer about that
25 trip?
3259
1 "A. Over the phone.
2 "Q. Over the phone.
3 "And why did you contact him?
4 "A. Well, whenever I called the office, it's either him or
5 Abu Fadhl is there, so I talked to anyone who answers.
6 "Q. When you went to Slovakia in or about 1994 while you were
7 living in Kenya, were you reporting to Abu Hajer about that
8 trip?
9 "A. When I was in Kenya?
10 "Q. While you were living in Kenya and you took a trip to
11 Slovakia concerning tractor parts, were you reporting to Abu
12 Hajer about that business you were conducting?
13 "A. No, I think I was reporting to Abu Fadhl.
14 "Q. When you came to America in 1997 after your house had
15 been searched in Kenya, did you talk to anyone in America
16 about that search who told you that they were calling on
17 behalf of Usama Bin Laden?
18 "A. Who had been calling?
19 "Q. Did anyone call you and say they wanted to know how you
20 were doing because Usama Bin Laden was concerned about you,
21 Wadih El Hage?
22 "A. No.
23 "Q. Have you sent a message back to Usama Bin Laden to
24 discuss the fact that your house was searched in Kenya at this
25 time?
3260
1 "A. No.
2 "Q. Have you sent a message back to Usama Bin Laden or anyone
3 who knows him about the fact that you were subpoenaed to the
4 Grand Jury?
5 "A. No. I didn't send anything since I came back.
6 "Q. When you went to Sacramento last week, who did you visit?
7 "A. My mother and sister.
8 "Q. Did you make an attempt to visit anyone else while you
9 were out there?
10 "A. On the way back I visited a friend of mine.
11 "Q. Your friend lives where that you visited?
12 "A. Los Angeles.
13 "Q. Who was that friend?
14 "A. Musalam.
15 "Q. Would you spell that for the court reporter?
16 "A. M-U-S-A-L-A-M.
17 "Q. Did you attempt to visit anyone besides your sister who
18 lived in Sacramento or in the Sacramento area?
19 "A. No.
20 "Q. Did you try to contact anyone by telephone besides your
21 sister, who lived in Sacramento or the Sacramento area?
22 "A. When I was in Sacramento, no.
23 "Q. While you were you were living in Kenya -- strike that.
24 "You told us before that you didn't know anyone by
25 the name of Jalal except for one person from Louisiana a long
3261
1 time ago; is that correct?
2 "A. Right.
3 "Q. Let me show you what has been premarked as Government
4 Exhibit or Grand Jury Exhibit 43 with today's date, 9/16/98.
5 "The document says, "I, A-S-H-I-F Mohamed,
6 M-O-H-A-M-E-D, J-U-M-A, have borrowed an amount of 9 million
7 Tanzania shillings from Mohamed K-A-R-A-M-A through Jalal
8 F-U-A-D for the purpose of paying off the loan of my bus.
9 This amount will be paid to Mohamed Karama or whoever he
10 appoints as soon as possible." And then it's giving a date,
11 which appears to be written as April 29, 1997, and the witness
12 is Wadih El Hage and there's a signature.
13 "Do you recognize that signature?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. Is that your signature?
16 "A. That's my signature.
17 "Q. Okay. So you witnessed a loan transaction involving
18 Ashif Mohamed Juma from Mohamed Karama through Jalal Fuad.
19 "Now, Ashif Mohamed Juma, is that the brother of the
20 person you identified before?
21 "A. Right.
22 "Q. That would be Grand Jury Exhibit 2, and I'll just make
23 that plain for the record.
24 "Showing you Grand Jury Exhibit 2, Ashif Mohamed Juma
25 is the brother of the person in that picture, correct?
3262
1 "A. Correct.
2 "Q. Mohamed Karama is a person you know, correct?
3 "A. Correct."
4
5 (Continued on next page)
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3263
1 "Q. He used to stay in your house, correct?
2 "A. That's true.
3 "Q. Okay. You're on the document. Who is Jalal Fuad?
4 "A. I don't know.
5 "Q. Where were you when this document was signed?
6 "A. April 29 I think I was in Kenya. I was in Nairobi.
7 "Q. Is Jalal Fuad another name for Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri?
8 "A. I don't know.
9 "Q. While you were in Kenya were you involved in the fishing
10 business?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. Were you involved with any business involving boats?
13 "A. No.
14 "Q. Did you ever own a boat?
15 "A. No.
16 "Q. Did you ever finance a boat?
17 "A. No.
18 "Q. Let me show you a document marked Government Exhibit 46
19 signed by Mohamed Karama written to the district fisheries
20 officer. Have you seen that document before?
21 "A. No, I haven't.
22 "Q. Mohammed Karama lived in your home?
23 "A. Right.
24 "Q. And here he says: I hereby apply to appoint Mr. Mohamed
25 O-L-I-D-E-H as agent to handle his boat.
3264
1 Do you see that, sir?
2 "A. Yes, I do.
3 "Q. I showed you a document earlier today, Grand Jury Exhibit
4 60, which you said you did not recognize, correct?
5 "A. Right.
6 "Q. If you look from the shipping from your name, Wadih El
7 Hage, it goes to Mohamed Odeh or N. Karama, correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 "Q. If you noticed the way Odeh is written the U looks lick
10 LI so Mohamed Odeh could be also be read to say Mohammed
11 O-L-I-D-E-H?
12 "A. Possible.
13 "Q. Possible?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. So your name, Wadih El Hage, is on Grand Jury Exhibit 60,
16 Karama lives in your house, but you don't know Mohammed Odeh,
17 correct, that's your testimony?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. This document, Grand Jury Exhibit 46 Mohammed Karama's
20 stationery with the name Mohamed Odeh, you don't recognize
21 that document either, that's your testimony?
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. Were you aware that Mohammed Odeh had a boat in Mombasa,
24 Kenya?
25 "A. I don't know Mohammed Odeh.
3265
1 "Q. Did you ever go to a wedding in Mombasa, Kenya?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. Whose wedding was it?
4 "A. One Kenyan friend of mine, friend of us.
5 "Q. Was this Kenyan friend a man or a woman?
6 "A. A man.
7 "Q. Kenyan man?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. What was his name?
10 "A. I can't recall. I didn't know the guy. I just went to
11 it with Harun Fazal. He told me let's go for a wedding and we
12 went.
13 Q. So Harun Fazal says, let's go for a wedding?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. And you went to the wedding of someone you did not know?
16 "A. Correct.
17 "Q. Who did the man marry?
18 "A. Another Kenyan lady.
19 "Q. Did you know the woman?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. Did your wife know the woman?
22 "A. No.
23 "Q. Is that the only wedding you went to in Mombasa?
24 "A. Yes, that's the only one in Mombasa.
25 "Q. What year was it?
3266
1 "A. I think when I first got there in '94.
2 "Q. You mentioned you went to three or four weddings in Kenya
3 in Mombasa. Where were the other weddings?
4 "A. In Nairobi.
5 "Q. And what were the names of the men who got married?
6 "A. I can't recall the names.
7 "Q. Let me show you what's been marked as Government Exhibits
8 39 and 39-T with today's date, and so we're clear, 39 is an
9 Arabic document. 39-T is a translation.
10 I ask you if you recognize Grand Jury Exhibit 39?
11 "A. I don't recall seeing this.
12 "Q. Okay. Have you ever seen to your knowledge Government
13 Exhibit 39-T?
14 "A. This one?
15 "Q. Yes.
16 "A. No.
17 "Q. Are you aware that the document before you, Government
18 Exhibit 39, after an Islamic greeting says: To brother Wadih,
19 correct?
20 "A. Yes.
21 "Q. Do you know any other brother Wadih's in Kenya?
22 "A. No.
23 "Q. You're aware that at the bottom of the document it's
24 signed Harun, correct?
25 "A. Yes.
3267
1 "Q. Harun lived with you in Kenya, correct?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. It's dated March 13, 1997, correct?
4 "A. Yes.
5 "Q. You lived in Kenya in March of 1997, correct?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. But you don't ever recall seeing this letter written from
8 Harun to your name?
9 "A. No.
10 "Q. Now, you've told this jury you do not know who Nawawi is,
11 correct?
12 "A. No.
13 "Q. If you look in the Arabic does this letter not say
14 finally, brother Nawawi has sent me a fax and he sends us his
15 regards. His old fax number has been changed. His new fax
16 number is 407-658-63771.
17 And before you answer the next question, I'll tell
18 you that the area code 407 is located in Florida.
19 Now, can you tell the grand jury how it is that if
20 you do not know who that is, if you do not know anyone in
21 Florida, why is it that a year ago Harun is writing you that
22 brother Nawawi sends us Wadih El Hage his regards and tells
23 you his change in phone number?
24 "A. I have no idea.
25 "Q. You have no idea?
3268
1 "A. No.
2 "Q. Brother Nawawi would not be a friend of Usama Bin Laden
3 living in Florida, would he?
4 "A. I wouldn't know.
5 "Q. You wouldn't know.
6 By the way, if you look at the same document,
7 Government Exhibit, Grand Jury Exhibit 39, in the middle it
8 says. If Abu Mohammed comes to you don't forget to give him
9 everything that concerns our work.
10 Do you know who Abu Mohammed is?
11 "A. Abu Mohammed? No.
12 "Q. Do you know what your work is that Harun is writing to
13 you about?
14 "A. No, I don't because I do not recognize this whole thing.
15 I don't know what he's referring to.
16 "Q. Let me show you what's been marked as Grand Jury Exhibit
17 36 with today's date, and ask you if you recognize this
18 document. It's a handwritten Arabic document.
19 "A. I have never seen this before.
20 "Q. You have never seen it before?
21 "A. No.
22 "Q. Do you recognize the handwriting on that document?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q. Whose handwriting?
25 "A. It's very close to mine.
3269
1 "Q. It's very close to yours?
2 "A. Right.
3 "Q. And could it be your handwriting?
4 "A. No, it couldn't be mine.
5 "Q. It's not your handwriting?
6 "A. It's not mine.
7 "Q. That's your testimony under oath?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. If you look at the bottom does the letter end in the
10 greeting, your brother Wadih?
11 "A. Yes.
12 "Q. And that would be your name, correct?
13 "A. Correct.
14 "Q. Underneath your brother Wadih, does it say note: If you
15 get an answer by tomorrow, please call me at mobile
16 254-7120-2319?
17 "A. Yes.
18 "Q. Is that the phone number that you used for your mobile
19 phone while you were in Kenya?
20 "A. Yes. But Harun used to have my number when I was out of
21 town.
22 Q. So what you're saying is that the handwriting looks like
23 your handwriting, correct?
24 "A. Very close.
25 "Q. Very close. The name is yours, correct?
3270
1 "A. Yes.
2 "Q. And the phone number is yours, correct?
3 "A. Yes.
4 "Q. And you're telling this grand jury under oath that you
5 didn't write this?
6 "A. I did not write this.
7 "Q. Now, it says at the top dear Abu Badir?
8 "A. I can't read that. It's not clear.
9 "Q. Okay. We'll leave this.
10 By the way, 36 is one of the documents not in a
11 plastic envelope. We'll leave it in the form it is now.
12 If I tell you that the better copy says: Dear Abu
13 Badir, Abu Badir would be the name of the husband of your
14 sister-in-law, correct?
15 "A. Yes.
16 "Q. Do you recognize the text of that letter in any way,
17 shape or form? Did you write this letter?
18 "A. No, I didn't.
19 "Q. Do you know what it means when it says, concerning the
20 group, I'll have them stay here until I get back so their
21 color gets just like the locals, and they would get used to
22 the rough African life?
23 "A. I don't know what does it mean.
24 "Q. Could it be that you were trying to get Usama Bin Laden's
25 group into Kenya so that they could blend in and fit in with
3271
1 the rest of the people?
2 "A. I don't know what's meant by it.
3 "Q. Because you didn't write it?
4 "A. Because I didn't write it.
5 "Q. All right. Let's move on to another exhibit.
6 Let me show you what's been marked as Grand Jury
7 Exhibit 38 and Grand Jury Exhibit 38-T. 38 is a copy of an
8 Arabic document. 38-T is the transcript.
9 Do you recognize that document?
10 "A. No.
11 "Q. And do you recognize the handwriting on that document?
12 "A. Yes.
13 "Q. What do you recognize about the handwriting?
14 "A. It's very close to mine.
15 "Q. Very close to yours.
16 "A. Right.
17 "Q. But your testimony is that it is not your handwriting?
18 "A. That's not my handwriting.
19 "Q. And you'll agree with me it's written at the bottom and
20 signed Wadih?
21 "A. Yes, it's written.
22 "Q. And it's spelled the way you spell your name?
23 "A. Yes, the same spelling.
24 "Q. And it's signed the way you signed your name?
25 "A. No, that's not my signature.
3272
1 "Q. Does it look like your signature?
2 "A. Well, I sign my first and last names always.
3 "Q. Does the first name Wadih, is it signed the way you sign
4 your first name Wadih?
5 "A. It's very close.
6 "Q. Very close, but you did not write this document?
7 "A. I did not write this document.
8 "Q. Or to be clear, you didn't write the document of which
9 this is a copy of?
10 "A. Right.
11 "Q. And it says: Dear Abu Suliman at the top. Do you know
12 who Abu Suliman is?
13 "A. No.
14 "Q. Sir, you understand, do you not, that the focus of this
15 grand jury investigation includes all the people who may have
16 been involved in the murder of more than two hundred fifty
17 people? Do you understand that?
18 "A. This grand jury?
19 "Q. Is focusing on the bombing of the US Embassy in Nairobi
20 which involved the murder of more than 250 people.
21 Do you understand that?
22 "A. I do.
23 "Q. So you understand that anything you lie about is very
24 important to this grand jury because they need to know every
25 fact about the people who may have been involved?
3273
1 "A. I do.
2 "Q. Let me approach you with what's been marked as Grand Jury
3 Exhibit 37 and Grand Jury Exhibit 37-T of today's date, 37
4 being a copy of an Arabic document.
5 The exhibits 36, 37, 38, and 39 are all copies with
6 the original Grand Jury Exhibit stickers on them. They're not
7 in plastic envelopes as opposed to the other exhibits. 37-T
8 is the translation.
9 Why don't you look at Grand Jury Exhibit 37 and see
10 if you recognize that. Do you recognize that document?
11 "A. No. It's the first time I see it.
12 "Q. You have never seen that before?
13 "A. No.
14 "Q. And in looking at 37-T do you see that that is also
15 addressed to brother Abu Suliman?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. Now, is that printed on some form of computer?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. That's not handwriting, correct?
20 "A. That's not handwriting.
21 "Q. And is it signed at the bottom, is it signed at the
22 bottom?
23 "A. No, I don't see any signature.
24 "Q. From the text of the letter can you figure out who would
25 have written it?
3274
1 "A. It might be Harun.
2 "Q. And why might it be Harun?
3 "A. Because there's mistakes in the Arabic language.
4 "Q. Harun isn't the best Arabic speaker, I take it?
5 "A. Yes, he's not.
6 "Q. If you also look at the middle of the letter does the
7 letter discuss L-U-K-M-A-N and I-S-Y-A?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. And Lukman and Isya are the name of Harun's son and
10 daughter?
11 "A. Yes.
12 "Q. And does it say right after that, that me and their
13 mother are doing well?
14 "A. Right.
15 "Q. Would that lead to you believe that Harun wrote this
16 letter?
17 "A. That's true.
18 "Q. And does the next sentence say that Wadih's family is
19 doing well?
20 "A. Right.
21 "Q. Now, in this letter written to Abu Suliman apparently by
22 Harun, do you know who Abu Suliman is?
23 "A. No.
24 "Q. In that letter does it say near the top of the letter
25 that from time to time the magazines here often mention your
3275
1 peer who's gone?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. Do you understand that to be a reference to Abu Ubaidah
4 al Banshiri who drowned?
5 "A. I don't know.
6 "Q. Do you see below that it says, the fish people are doing
7 all right. Do you understand who the fish people are?
8 "A. No.
9 "Q. It wouldn't be Mohammed Odeh and the fishing boat, would
10 it?
11 "A. I don't think so.
12 "Q. If you continue on it says that Wadih went on a trip. He
13 is in Taysir. Do you see that?
14 "A. Yes.
15 Q. It says he called me from over there. Do you see that?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. I personally called Taysir and their patience is very
18 comforting. Do you see that?
19 "A. Yes.
20 "Q. They are doing well and in good health. Do you see that?
21 "A. Yes.
22 "Q. They live in their old town, M-A-S-J-I-D AL N-U-R
23 H-A-Y-A-T. Do you see that?
24 A. Yes.
25 "Q. Now, is that a reference to a mosque when it refers to a
3276
1 Masjid?
2 "A. Yes, a Masjid he means mosque.
3 "Q. Masjid al Nur is that a mosque in H-A-Y-A-T-A-B-A-D?
4 "A. I don't know.
5 "Q. Have you ever been to the Masjid al Nur?
6 "A. There is a Masjid al Nur here in, where is it, in
7 California?
8 "Q. When this letter was written by Harun to Abu Suliman he's
9 telling people that you have taken a trip or Taysir. Where
10 did you go and who is Taysir?
11 "A. I don't know what he's talking about.
12 "Q. Well, Harun Fazal works for you, correct?
13 "A. Correct.
14 "Q. He lives with you, correct?
15 "A. Correct.
16 "Q. He uses your computer, correct?
17 "A. Correct.
18 "Q. He knows you quite well, correct?
19 "A. Correct.
20 "Q. He's telling someone that you're on a trip, correct?
21 "A. Yes.
22 "Q. He tells someone that you went with Taysir and you called
23 back from wherever you were, correct?
24 "A. That's what he is saying. See, all these things I
25 believe that Harun probably wrote all these things, and I
3277
1 don't know anything about it. Either he used my computer or
2 he tried to write just like me.
3 "Q. I see. So now Harun is counterfeiting letters from you?
4 "A. Apparently. It's the first time I see these things. And
5 from seeing these letters written by computer, it seems that
6 he was using my name for these things.
7 "Q. Can you tell the grand jury why it is that Harun Fazal
8 would spend his day counterfeiting letters with your name on?
9 A. I never knew.
10 "Q. Do you have any idea as you sit here today who Taysir
11 might be?
12 "A. I can't recall.
13 "Q. Would it be that Taysir is Abu Hafs, Usama Bin Laden's
14 military commander whom you went to visit in Pakistan?
15 "A. If I saw Abu Hafs, I don't know, but whether I visited
16 him or not, I have seen him in Sudan, that's all.
17 "Q. While you were living in Kenya and you knew Harun, did
18 you have occasion to visit Abu Hafs anywhere in the world?
19 "A. No, I haven't seen him since Sudan.
20 "Q. Did you ever tell Harun that you went to visit Abu Hafs
21 anywhere in the world?
22 "A. No.
23 "Q. Did you ever tell Harun that you saw Abu Hafs anywhere in
24 the world?
25 "A. No.
3278
1 "Q. Did you ever tell Harun that you went to visit Taysir
2 anywhere in the world?
3 "A. No.
4 "Q. Did you ever tell Harun Fazal that you saw Taysir
5 anywhere in the world?
6 "A. No.
7 "Q. As you sit here today, it remains your testimony that you
8 have no idea who Taysir is?
9 "A. I have no idea, no.
10 "Q. The letter continues it says: Your peer, T-A-L-A-L is
11 well. Do you know who Talal is?
12 "A. I remember the name. I can't recall who's that.
13 "Q. Okay. We'll continue.
14 Let me show you Grand Jury Exhibit 40 with today's
15 date. Once again, it is a copy of a handwritten Arabic
16 document and 40-T is the translation. Have you seen the
17 document of which Grand Jury Exhibit 40 is a copy?
18 "A. No. I have never seen it before.
19 "Q. Can you make out that it's signed at the bottom Abu
20 Suliman?
21 "A. I can't see it.
22 "Q. Okay. What's the last word you can read on the page?
23 "A. My name to answer me.
24 "Q. So you see that whoever wrote this document is saying
25 Wadih, I am still waiting on you and give me an answer,
3279
1 correct?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. It's your testimony, however, that you don't recall
4 seeing this document before?
5 "A. No, never.
6 "Q. I ask you read the top of the letter it goes on to say
7 eminent brothers, peace and his blessing upon you?
8 "A. Correct.
9 "Q. Continue, what is the news and how are things?
10 "A. Yes.
11 "Q. Does it in -- did you receive my letter which I sent you
12 from Egypt?
13 "A. Yes.
14 "Q. Does the next sentence say, how's Taysir doing and his
15 older brother?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. I want to know how his older brother doing because the
18 enemies here want to grab him just like what they did to the
19 others in the east.
20 "A. Yes. It says that.
21 "Q. Does it say, please tell him to be cautious?
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. Does it cite to a phrase in the Koran that says "and you
24 must be cautious"?
25 "A. Yes.
3280
1 "Q. Does it say then, Wadih, I am still waiting on you to
2 give me an answer for what I requested of you?
3 "A. I think it says that.
4 "Q. Now, this letter obviously was written to a Wadih,
5 correct?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Do you recall receiving this letter?
8 "A. No.
9 "Q. Do you recall people sending you a message asking how
10 Taysir was doing?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. Do you recall trying to find out how Taysir and his older
13 brother were doing?
14 "A. No.
15 "Q. Would his older brother be coded reference to Usama Bin
16 Laden?
17 "A. It's possible.
18 "Q. It's possible. Have you ever heard of Usama Bin Laden
19 referred to as Taysir's older brother?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. If I told you that the bottom of the document is signed
22 once again Abu Suliman with a phone number, 407-658-6371 the
23 same number in Florida referred to in the prior document,
24 would that refresh your recollection as to whether you've ever
25 seen this document before?
3281
1 "A. I don't recall seeing this document before.
2 "Q. Do you know anyone in Florida who was sending you
3 messages at any time in your entire life?
4 "A. Entire life? I have a friend. He used to be in school
5 with me in Louisiana. He lives in Florida right now.
6 "Q. What's his name?
7 "A. Ali. I don't remember the last name.
8 "Q. What, Ali you said?
9 "A. Ali.
10 "Q. What nationality is he?
11 "A. He's Palestinian.
12 "Q. And how old is he?
13 "A. Right now?
14 "Q. Yes?
15 "A. About 37. 35, 37.
16 "Q. And he's a Palestinian national. Where did he grow up?
17 "A. In Kuwait.
18 "Q. When did he leave Kuwait?
19 "A. I don't know.
20 "Q. When did you first meet him?
21 "A. In Louisiana.
22 "Q. In what year?
23 "A. '85.
24 "Q. And when did you last see him?
25 "A. I can't recall, but it was a long time. Over maybe
3282
1 five -- I did I '88 was last time I seen him.
2 "Q. 1988, ten years ago?
3 "A. Yes.
4 "Q. So far as you know, does this person Ali know Usama Bin
5 Laden?
6 "A. I don't think so.
7 "Q. As far as you know is this person Ali someone who would
8 have sent that letter to you?
9 "A. No.
10 "Q. Let me approach you with what has been marked as Grand
11 Jury Exhibit with today's date. It consists of two pages and
12 they are in a plastic envelope to preserve fingerprints and
13 one is mark page 69.
14 Page 1, is marked page 69, page 2. It's a fax, and
15 original fax.
16 If you can look at it, and see if you recognize it
17 and also take a look at the handwriting.
18 "A. Do you want me to read it?
19 "Q. Read it to yourself and take whatever you need to decide
20 whether this is something that you have seen before ever seen
21 before.
22 Do you recognize that document?
23 "A. No.
24 "Q. If you look at the bottom of the document I don't know
25 how good your eyes are, but I'll tell you something. That may
3283
1 help you refresh your recollection, which is that the time and
2 date stamp on the fax indicates that it was sent in February
3 of 1997. Okay?
4 I don't know if you can read that. But that may be
5 of help to you. It says, February 26, 1997 page 1 and page 2.
6 I'll also advise you so that you have full
7 information of which to decide whether you recognize the
8 document that is found with the other documents bearing your
9 name and with the phone bills you described that will be in
10 your files.
11 Does that help you recognize whether or not you have
12 seen Grand Jury Exhibit 69 page 1 or page 2 before?
13 "A. I don't recall seeing this.
14 "Q. Do you know who wrote it?
15 "A. It says Abu Suliman.
16 "Q. It says Abu Suliman. Okay.
17 Do you know Abu Suliman?
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. Do you know a person by the name of A-H-M-E-D? Do you
20 see Ahmed written?
21 "A. Yes.
22 "Q. Do you see the Arabic handwriting underneath it?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q. What does it say beneath Ahmed?
25 "A. T-A-W-H-I-L.
3284
1 "Q. Tawhil. Would that be Arabic for meaning the tall one?
2 "A. Right.
3 "Q. So when it says Ahmed with Tawhil that would be Ahmed the
4 tall one?
5 "A. Yes.
6 "Q. That would be the Ahmed that ran Mercy International,
7 right?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. That would be the Ahmed to whom Harun wished to give your
10 files, correct?
11 "A. Correct.
12 "Q. Now, do you recognize the handwriting or printing on this
13 document?
14 "A. No.
15 "Q. Now, if you look at the text in the paragraph where
16 Ahmed's name comes up, it says, give my S-A-L-A-M, correct?
17 "A. Correct.
18 "Q. And Salam in Arabic term is an Arabic term for the
19 greeting of peace, correct?
20 "A. Yes.
21 "Q. It says give my Salam to Harun and my friend the
22 fishermen on the East Coast as well as Ahmed and Abu A-L
23 K-H-A-I-R, correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 "Q. So whoever wrote this is not Harun, correct?
3285
1 "A. Correct.
2 "Q. Who ever wrote this is not Ahmed the tall one from Mercy
3 International, the tall one, correct?
4 "A. Correct.
5 "Q. And whoever wrote it is not the fishermen on the East
6 Coast, correct?
7 "A. Correct.
8 "Q. It's Abu Suliman?
9 A. It seems to be.
10 "Q. That's his signature?
11 "A. Right.
12 "Q. Now, it says further above, at any rate, I am glad to
13 hear that the doctor is doing well and secure.
14 Do you know who the reference is to the doctor means?
15 Strike that. Do you know who they are referring to
16 when they talk about the doctor?
17 "A. I don't know.
18 "Q. Would that be Usama Bin Laden?
19 "A. I never heard anyone call him the doctor.
20 "Q. Have you ever heard him called the H-A-J-J? Have you
21 ever heard of Usama Bin Laden referred to as the hajj?
22 "A. No.
23 "Q. Have you ever heard Usama Bin Laden referred to as the
24 director?
25 "A. Yes.
3286
1 "Q. Do you know who is referred to when it says that the
2 doctor is doing well?
3 "A. No.
4 "Q. The next paragraph says: Is there any way you could find
5 out if Abu Muaz Misrey is still in, A-B-U M-U-A-Z M-I-S-R-E-Y
6 is still in Z-U-U-L town.
7 Do you know who Abu Muaz Misrey is?
8 "A. I know who Abu Muaz Misrey is.
9 "Q. Who is that?
10 "A. A friend who lived in Sudan.
11 "Q. Where was this friend who lived in Sudan from?
12 "A. Egypt.
13 "Q. Egypt. And is Misrey a word meaning the Egyptian?
14 "A. Right.
15 "Q. And was he a friend of Usama Bin Laden as well?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. Do you know what Abu Muaz's real name is?
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. Do you know where he is today?
20 "A. No. I left him in Sudan. I don't know where is he.
21 "Q. Do you know what company he worked for?
22 "A. He didn't work for a company. He was in charge for the
23 library for Usama Bin Laden.
24 "Q. And what was in this library?
25 "A. Books.
3287
1 "Q. Books.
2 Were there files in the library?
3 "A. I don't recall seeing any files.
4 "Q. When you worked for Usama Bin Laden, did you enter into a
5 written contract with him?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Do you know if that contract went into a file?
8 "A. Did it go into a file?
9 Q. Yes.
10 "A. I believe so, yes.
11 "Q. Was the file --
12 "A. I had a copy of it.
13 "Q. Was the file maintained in the library?
14 "A. I don't know where they put the file.
15 "Q. Where was the file located?
16 I'm sorry. Where was the library located?
17 "A. It's in Khartoum.
18 "Q. Where in Khartoum?
19 "A. I can't recall. It's been a long time ago. I don't
20 recall where.
21 "Q. Where was it located in regard to your office?
22 "A. It was very far off.
23 "Q. Very far from your office?
24 "A. Yes. The office was in downtown and the library was in
25 the residential area.
3288
1 Q. What was the name of the residential area?
2 "A. What was the name? I can't recall.
3 "Q. Did Usama Bin Laden have people that lived near the
4 library?
5 "A. Everybody lived near the library.
6 "Q. Did you live near the library?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. What was the name of the area that you lived in where the
9 library was?
10 "A. That's what I was trying to remember. I can't recall
11 right now.
12 "Q. How far was it from your house to this library?
13 "A. About 15 minutes walk.
14 "Q. Did you ever go to the library?
15 "A. Yes.
16 "Q. Were there guards outside the library?
17 "A. No.
18 "Q. How did you get in?
19 "A. Knocked on the door.
20 "Q. Knocked on the door and who let you in?
21 "A. People who work there.
22 "Q. And what were their names?
23 "A. I remember Abu M-U-A-Z.
24 "Q. Did you ever see Abu Muaz outside of Sudan?
25 "A. In Pakistan.
3289
1 "Q. Where when in Pakistan?
2 "A. In the '80s, '86 probably '87.
3 "Q. Was he training to fight over in Afghanistan?
4 "A. I don't know. I don't think so. He is a big guy.
5 "Q. Why would a big guy not train to fight?
6 "A. He's fat.
7 "Q. He's fat, okay.
8 Do you know the name of the street that the library
9 was located on in the neighborhood you lived in?
10 "A. No.
11 "Q. And what did you do when you got to library?
12 "A. Read some books.
13 "Q. And what were the books about?
14 "A. Different religious books.
15 "Q. Books about jihad?
16 "A. Some books about jihad, about everything subject in
17 Islam.
18 "Q. Continuing on, Grand Jury Exhibit 69, page 2. It also
19 says whether you could, whether someone could find out if Abu
20 Muaz is still in Zuul town. Where is Zuul town?
21 "A. I don't know.
22 "Q. The next sentence says, there's a dream that my beloved
23 brother Jalal, J-A-L-L-A-L, saw me a few days before his
24 passing away. Do you see that?
25 "A. Yes.
3290
1 "Q. Who is brother Jalal?
2 "A. I don't know who he refers to.
3 "Q. Could that be Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri?
4 "A. I don't know.
5 "Q. Could it be the guy you went to find out about at Lake
6 Victoria who drowned, brother Jalal?
7 "A. I don't think so.
8 "Q. It continues: Also, did you ever get the refunds for the
9 ticket I sent you? It's been seven months. Did you see that?
10 "A. Yes.
11 "Q. Do you know who it might have been that was sent the
12 ticket seven months ago that Abu Suliman wanted to get his
13 money from?
14 "A. I don't know what he's talking about.
15 "Q. Okay. Bear with me one moment.
16 Who is Abu A-L-K-H-A-I-R?
17 "A. He's a Yemeni guy who work at Mercy International.
18 "Q. A Yemeni guy that works at Mercy International?
19 A. Right.
20 "Q. What does he look like?
21 "A. He's fat. Big and fat.
22 "Q. Does he go by the name of F-A-H-A-D?
23 "A. Not that I know of.
24 "Q. How old is he?
25 "A. Probably 30.
3291
1 "Q. Probably 30?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. And he was born in Yemen?
4 "A. I don't know.
5 "Q. Do you know if he ever lived in Yemen?
6 "A. I believe so.
7 "Q. Do you know where in Yemen he lived?
8 "A. No.
9 "Q. Do you know whether he was from the north or the south of
10 Yemen?
11 "A. I don't know really.
12 "Q. Do you know if he ever went to Afghanistan?
13 "A. No.
14 "Q. Now, sir, you don't know who this letter was written to,
15 but let me put in front of you Grand Jury Exhibit 40 from Abu
16 Suliman where he says:
17 Wadih, I am still waiting on you to give me an answer
18 for what I had requested from you, the ticket, et cetera, et
19 cetera. And then point to exhibit 69 page 2 which then says:
20 Lastly, did you ever get the refund for the ticket I
21 sent you. It's been seven months.
22 And I ask you whether or not Grand Jury Exhibit 69 is
23 a letter written to you from Abu Suliman?
24 "A. I said no.
25 "Q. You're sure? You're under oath?
3292
1 "A. Yes.
2 "Q. And you realize that all the people he asked to give
3 regards to are people you know, correct? You know Harun,
4 correct?
5 "A. Yes.
6 "Q. And you know Ahmed T-A-W-H-I-L, the tall one?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. You know Abu al Kar from Yemen, correct?
9 "A. Right.
10 "Q. And so whoever it is that is writing from being written
11 to by Abu Suliman wants to make sure that a greeting is given
12 to those people, correct?
13 "A. It seems to be that.
14 "Q. Abu Suliman is not asking the person he wrote this letter
15 to, to give a greeting to Wadih, is he, in that paragraph?
16 "A. No.
17 "Q. You understand, sir, that the people involved in this are
18 being investigated for the bombing in Nairobi, correct?
19 "A. You just told me a while ago.
20 "Q. So you understand that if you lie about who it is that
21 these letters were sent to, who it is that wrote them or
22 whether or not you have seen them, you will frustrate what the
23 people in this room are trying to do, which is to try to
24 determine who played a role in the bombs in the embassy in
25 Nairobi and Tanzania? You understand that?
3293
1 "A. I do.
2 "Q. Is there any answer you wish to change or amend in any
3 way, shape or form?
4 "A. Well, I would say that apparently someone has been using
5 my name just to get those, whether faxes or letters, to get
6 them through to someone else.
7 "Q. So they've been using your name and --
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. -- and mimicking your handwriting, trying to copy your
10 handwriting?
11 "A. It seems like that.
12 "Q. And they have been writing letters to you and from you.
13 Is that your opinion?
14 "A. Yes, I was traveling most of the time, was out of my
15 office most of the time, out of Nairobi.
16 "Q. So someone seems to be using your name and your
17 handwriting to write letters to you and from you. Is that
18 your testimony?
19 "A. That's what I would figure out from seeing all these
20 letters.
21 "Q. Take your time and tell the grand jury why you think
22 people would do that?
23 "A. I have no idea.
24 "Q. Now, sir, you've not previously provided fingerprints to
25 the grand jury, have you?
3294
1 "A. No.
2 I would ask if the foreperson could direct that
3 Mr. El Hage provide a full set of fingerprints to the grand
4 jury.
5 THE FOREPERSON: So directed.
6 THE WITNESS: Sure.
7 "Q. Now, if it's okay with Mr. El Hage --
8 THE COURT: Let's stop now and we'll take a recess.
9 (Jury not present)
10 MR. FITZGERALD: I think there are four or five pages
11 left in the transcript.
12 THE COURT: The next order of business will be?
13 MR. FITZGERALD: Fingerprint expert. And we'll be
14 offering I think one or two exhibits before then which is
15 Government Exhibits 617 for which the Bates stamp number was
16 1B9/3-2-3A the phone records for 408-249-5637.
17 THE COURT: Very well. We'll take a brief recess.
18 (Recess)
19 (In open court; jury not present)
20 THE COURT: Defendants request to charge are due
21 today. Silence.
22 MR. COHN: I will be handing them up. I have them
23 here. I just want to serve the government, but I have them.
24
25
3295
1 (Jury present)
2 THE COURT: All right. We can resume with the
3 reading of the grand jury minutes.
4 (Resuming at page 55, line 2)
5 "Q. Now, if it's okay with Mr. El Hage and with the
6 foreperson we could arrange to have the FBI simply take your
7 fingerprints rather than bringing someone in here with a messy
8 ink pad and provide those fingerprints and forward it to the
9 grand jury, rather than have people watch you be
10 fingerprinted. Is that okay with you, sir?
11 "A. They do have my fingerprints.
12 "Q. Who has your fingerprints?
13 "A. The FBI.
14 "Q. Why do they have your fingerprints?
15 "A. I don't know. They took it several times.
16 "Q. When?
17 "A. Well, when I became a citizen and when I took my
18 passport. Several occasions.
19 "Q. Have you ever been arrested by the FBI?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. Just so you understand, sir, there's a thing called major
22 case prints which not only take your fingerprints, but they
23 take the sides of your hands, your palms, every ridge that is
24 exposed on your fingers so that the FBI can make a full
25 comparison of any documents which they decide to test for
3296
1 fingerprints, and those fingerprints that are provided for
2 passport purposes or for other purposes are not as good as
3 major case prints.
4 So having explained that, I would ask that you
5 provide your major case prints, and if it's agreeable with
6 you, we can arrange to have the FBI do it this afternoon,
7 provide the fingerprints to the grand jury rather than making
8 you return and be fingerprinted with an ink pad.
9 Is that agreeable with you, sir?
10 "A. That's okay with me.
11 "Q. Is that agreeable to the Forelady?
12 THE FOREPERSON: That's fine.
13 So what we will do is we will adjourn for today. If
14 I could ask the Forelady to remind the witness that he's still
15 under subpoena, so that if some questions should arise that we
16 wish to have Mr. El Hage appear again, we can invite him to
17 appear back without requiring the service of a subpoena.
18 THE FOREPERSON: I remind you that you are still
19 under subpoena.
20 "Q. If you could just step out of the room for a moment and
21 wait outside, I want to ask the grand jurors if they have any
22 questions besides the provision of the fingerprints.
23 "A. Sure.
24 (Witness excused)
25 (Time noted 3:20 o'clock p.m.)
3297
1 (Colloquy follows)
2 (Colloquy precedes)
3 (Time noted 3:23 o'clock p.m.)
4 (Witness resumed)
5 THE FOREPERSON: I remind you you're still under
6 oath.
7 "Q. The grand jury had a couple of quick questions one of
8 which is who funds the Mercy International relief agent in
9 Kenya?
10 "A. Some Saudi merchants in Saudi Arabia.
11 "Q. Merchants in Saudi Arabia?
12 "A. Yes.
13 "Q. Does that include Usama Bin Laden?
14 "A. I don't think so. No. He might be, but I never knew
15 anything on that.
16 "Q. Has anyone ever indicated to you that Usama Bin Laden
17 funds Mercy International in any way, shape or form?
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. What do you do for work currently?
20 "A. I work in a tire shop, wheels and tires.
21 "Q. And that's located in?
22 A. Fort Worth.
23 Q. Fort Worth, Texas?
24 "A. Texas.
25 "Q. Do you do any relief work in the United States?
3298
1 "A. Right now, no.
2 "Q. Have you done any relief work since your return from
3 Kenya in 1997?
4 "A. No.
5 "Q. When did you become a US citizen?
6 "A. '89.
7 "Q. And what passports do you have?
8 "A. American passport.
9 "Q. Do you have any other passports?
10 "A. No.
11 "Q. Have you ever traveled on any passports other than a
12 United States passport once you became a citizen of the United
13 States in 1989?
14 "A. No.
15 "Q. Have you ever traveled on a Sudanese passport?
16 "A. No.
17 "Q. Have you ever traveled on a counterfeit passport?
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. Have you ever traveled on a Kenyan passport?
20 "A. No.
21 "Q. And your post office box 72239 in Nairobi, who had access
22 to that?
23 "A. When I wasn't there, it was Harun.
24 "Q. Was the only two people who had access yourself and
25 Harun?
3299
1 "A. If Harun wasn't there and I wasn't there, it was Mohammed
2 Karama.
3 "Q. Those are the three people that would have access to your
4 box?
5 "A. Yes.
6 "Q. Do you recall either Harun or Mohammed Karama telling you
7 that there are letters appearing in your post office box
8 addressed to someone they don't know?
9 "A. No, they never did.
10 "Q. Did you ever see any letters addressed to a Wadih Norman
11 in your post office box?
12 "A. No.
13 "Q. Okay. If the foreperson would remind the witness that
14 his appearance is adjourned and he's under oath and I would
15 require him to provide the major case prints to the bureau, we
16 can adjourn for the day.
17 THE FOREPERSON: You're so directed.
18 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.
19 THE FOREPERSON: You may be excused.
20 (Witness excused)
21 (Time noted: 3:25 o'clock p.m.
22 (Colloquy follows.)
23 Certificate.
24 State of New York, County of New York.
25 I Tracy A. Thompson, CSR hereby certify that the
3300
1 foregoing is a true and accurate transcript to the best of my
2 skill and ability from my stenographic notes of this
3 proceeding.
4 Tracy Thompson. Acting grand jury reporter.
5 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, at this time the
6 government would offer in evidence Government Exhibit 617
7 marked Bates stamp number 1B93 slash 2-3A pursuant to the
8 stipulation regarding the search of the Mercy International
9 relief agency.
10 THE COURT: So received.
11 (Government's Exhibit 617 received in evidence)
12 MR. FITZGERALD: The government would also offer
13 Government Exhibit 368, the telephone numbers for the phone
14 number 408-249-5637.
15 THE COURT: Received.
16 (Government's Exhibit 368 received in evidence)
17 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time the government
18 recalls Mitchell Hollars.
19 THE COURT: Mr. Hollars, the Court reminds you you're
20 still under oath.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
22 MITCHELL HOLLARS, resumed.
23 DIRECT EXAMINATION
24 BY MR. KARAS:
25 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
3301
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 Q. If you could just remind the jury what it is that you do,
3 sir?
4 A. I work for the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the
5 latent print unit which is in the laboratory division.
6 Q. I'm wondering maybe you can adjust the wireless mic there
7 to cut out some of the static perhaps.
8 If you can say again, what it is you do, sir?
9 A. I work for the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the
10 latent print unit which is in the laboratory division.
11 Q. Now, sir, did there come a time that you were asked to
12 examine documents that you were told were seized from the
13 Mercy International Relief Organization in Nairobi, Kenya?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And can you tell us whether or not you followed the same
16 protocol that you described earlier for processing latent
17 fingerprints?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. I'm going to approach, sir, with what has been marked for
20 identification as Government Exhibit 659 and ask you to take a
21 look at it.
22 So we're clear, sir, were you asked to analyze some
23 of the documents that you believe were seized from Mercy
24 International?
25 A. That's correct.
3302
1 Q. And after you completed your processing of these latent
2 fingerprints, can you tell us whether or not you prepared any
3 reports?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. And taking a look at Government Exhibit 659, can you tell
6 us what that is?
7 A. It's a summary of my results.
8 Q. The information that is on 659, did you compare that to
9 the report that you prepared after processing the exhibits?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. As well as any notes that you took?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Can you tell us whether or not the information that is
14 contained on 659 is accurate?
15 A. It is.
16 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we offer
17 Government Exhibit 659.
18 THE COURT: Received.
19 (Government's Exhibit 659 received in evidence)
20 Q. If we could, before we display 659, if we can just display
21 Government Exhibit 611 which is the first exhibit contained
22 within 659.
23 Is that one of the documents that you processed for
24 latent fingerprints, sir?
25 A. Yes.
3303
1 Q. If we could redisplay 659, please.
2 Now, sir, do you recall testifying about a summary
3 chart that related to other exhibits that you processed?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you tell us whether or not this chart follows the
6 format of the earlier charts that you testified about?
7 A. It does.
8 Q. The middle column there processes, can you just tell us
9 what that is, again?
10 A. The V stands for a visual examination, the L indicates a
11 laser or ultimate light source examination; DFO is the
12 fluorescent process for amino acids. The Ninhydrin is the
13 process that reacts with amino acids and develops the prints
14 in a visible line; and the PD represents the physical
15 developer process.
16 Q. And according to the chart there, Government Exhibit 611,
17 can you tell us the name of any individuals whose prints you
18 were able to identify?
19 A. Wadih El Hage.
20 Q. And with respect to the third row down there, Government
21 Exhibit 615 A, for the record if you can just tell us the
22 identification you made of that exhibit?
23 A. The individual?
24 Q. Yes, sir?
25 A. It's Wadih El Hage.
3304
1 Q. And the row below that, 624-I, Government Exhibit 624-I
2 for the record?
3 A. Wadih El Hage.
4 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time I ask if Mr.
5 Hollars can be allowed to step down from the witness stand.
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 (Witness left stand)
8 Q. Now, Mr. Hollars, I presented to you what has been marked
9 for identification as Government Exhibit 615 A-LP. If you can
10 just tell us what that is?
11 A. It's a chart enlargement. One chart represents the latent
12 print that was developed on the facsimile copy. The other
13 represents the corresponding area of the inked fingerprint
14 that appears on the fingerprint card bearing the name of Wadih
15 El Hage.
16 Q. And did you prepare that enlargement?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we offer
19 Government Exhibit 615 A-LP.
20 THE COURT: Received.
21 (Government's Exhibit 615 A-LP received in evidence)
22 Q. Sir, if you could demonstrate to the jury the
23 identification you made of Government Exhibit 615-A as being,
24 as containing a fingerprint from Wadih El Hage?
25 A. Sure. The chart on your right represents the latent print
3305
1 that was developed on the facsimile copy. The chart on your
2 left represents the corresponding area of the inked
3 fingerprint that appears on the fingerprint card bearing the
4 name of Wadih El Hage.
5 The black lines represent the friction ridges that's
6 pressed upon the fingers. The white lines are the spaces
7 between those friction ridge. The red lines and numbers are
8 placed there by me to represent some of the corresponding
9 characteristics that are present in these two prints.
10 The comparison process you first analyze the friction
11 ridge detail taking note of ridge flow, ridge structure, ridge
12 direction, for instance, if there is a pattern present. In
13 this particular print happens to be a left loped looped loop,
14 so you compare a left loped loop with a left loped loop.
15 Once you find two left loped loops then you locate
16 characteristics that are present in one of the prints taking
17 into consideration the unit relationship to that print or that
18 point has that characteristic has with the other
19 characteristics that are present and locate those same
20 characteristics in the second print.
21 In order for these two prints to have been made by
22 the same individual the same characteristics and the same unit
23 relationship have to be present in the two charts.
24 Beginning with the chart marked latent fingerprint,
25 in the upper center of the chart ends in a ridge which is
3306
1 marked point number 1. Continuing, crossing four ridges to
2 the fifth ridge, is a dividing ridge which is marked as point
3 number 2. From point number 2 moving downward across three
4 ridges or four ridges is a ridge that ends which is marked as
5 point number 3.
6 Moving to the inked fingerprint, the same
7 characteristics in the same unit relationship should appear in
8 the inked fingerprint. In the upper center there is a ridge
9 that ends which is marked as point number 1. Moving downward
10 across the five ridges we have a ridge, the fifth ridge, the
11 ridge that divides into two ridges which is mark as point
12 number 2.
13 From point number 2 moving downward across four
14 ridges is a ridge that ends which is marked as point number 3.
15 From point number 3, we'll continue with the inked fingerprint
16 moving downward and to the right to the ridge that ends which
17 is marked as point number 4.
18 From point number 4, moving downward to the adjacent
19 ridge to the ridge that ends, this is marked as point number
20 5. From point number 5 moving to the left across, 1, 2, 3, 4,
21 5, 6, to the seventh ridge, this ridge divides into two ridges
22 and is mark as point number 6.
23 From point number 6 moving upward and to the left
24 across one ridge is a ridge that divides which is marked as
25 point number 7.
3307
1 Going back to the latent fingerprint, these
2 additional characteristics should also appear in that print as
3 well.
4 From point number 3 moving down and to the right is a
5 ridge that ends which is marked as point number 4. From point
6 number 4 moving downward to the adjacent ridge to the left the
7 ridge ends which is mark as point number 5.
8 Moving to the left across 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ridges is
9 a ridge that divides which is marked as point number 6. From
10 point number 6 moving to the left across one ridge is a ridge
11 that divides which is mark as point number 7.
12 Using this method of comparison, the seven that I
13 illustrated as well as some that are marked, additional ones
14 that are marked, as well as others that are unmarked, and
15 using the method of comparison that I demonstrated, that I
16 determined that the latent fingerprint that was developed on
17 the fax simply page in the number 7 or left index finger that
18 appeared on the fingerprint card bearing the name of Wadih El
19 Hage, were made by one and the same individual.
20 MR. KARAS: Thank you, sir. No further questions.
21 (Witness resumed stand)
22 THE COURT: Any questions of this witness?
23 Mr. Dratel on behalf of the defendant El Hage.
24 CROSS-EXAMINATION
25 BY MR. DRATEL:
3308
1 Q. Good afternoon, Agent Hollars.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. The FBI has the most sophisticated fingerprint analysis
4 equipment in the world, correct?
5 A. We like to think so, yes.
6 Q. And in this case you used all those resources that were
7 necessary to develop any latent prints that might be on
8 documents or other items, correct?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. And, in fact, the technology that you have is so
11 sophisticated that you can -- withdrawn.
12 The technology is so sophisticated that if there are
13 two fingerprints on top of each other that you can identify or
14 remove the first one to look at the second one, correct?
15 A. Sometimes, but not every time, no.
16 Q. It's true that fingerprints last a long time?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And, in fact, on paper it's been tested that they last up
19 to 40 years?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. One of the reasons is that the fingerprint is in the fiber
22 of the paper?
23 A. The residue's absorbed into the paper, yes.
24 Q. It's a porous surface.
25 And it doesn't matter if it's stored next to other
3309
1 paper or in an envelope or in a folder. Once it's imbedded in
2 that fiber it's going to stay there, correct?
3 A. Usually, yes.
4 Q. And most often the fingerprints that are developed, the
5 latent fingerprints that are developed from documents are not
6 visible to the naked eye; is that correct?
7 A. Before the processing technique?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. And so that's not a factor in the quality of the print
11 that you ultimately develop from the process, correct?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Is it correct that it's not a factor?
14 In other words, once the fingerprint is lifted
15 through the either the laser or the ninhydrin process, that
16 it's not necessarily a worse print for comparison than you
17 would get from the naked eye?
18 I'll rephrase it if you.
19 A. I don't really understand what you're saying.
20 Q. Sure. Just because the print is not visible to the naked
21 eye and it has to be developed through a process either the
22 fluorescent photo or the ninhydrin process, doesn't affect
23 your ability to use that fingerprint, that latent print to
24 compare it to inked prints?
25 A. Once the print is developed, no, it is not affected.
3310
1 Q. Is the photographic paper that you would have photos on
2 that you photos developed on, isn't that a particularly good
3 source for fingerprints?
4 A. Photographic paper?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. It's also true, isn't it, that you don't need a very large
8 sample from the fingerprint in order to make a positive
9 identification?
10 A. It depends.
11 Q. But it be as small as a thumb tack, correct?
12 A. Yes, in some instances.
13 Q. And even though you've developed a fingerprint and
14 compared it and identified it with an inked print that doesn't
15 tell you how the document necessarily was handled by the
16 person whose fingerprint is on it, isn't that correct?
17 A. Usually will indicate the position the hand was holding.
18 Q. But it doesn't indicate whether that was done in moving
19 the documents from one desk to another, from reading it or
20 whatever the purpose was for the person handling the document,
21 correct?
22 A. No, it does not.
23 Q. And the inked prints that you had for Mr. El Hage were
24 major case prints, correct?
25 A. Yes.
3311
1 Q. And those include not only the prints of the fingers but
2 also rolled over to the side to give you more surface areas to
3 compare?
4 A. It includes tips, the sides, lower joints as well as the
5 palms.
6 (Continued on next page)
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3312
1 Q. And you also have palm prints for Mr. El Hage, too,
2 correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And obviously those that came by the FBI were an excellent
5 quality ink print to compare against a latent print?
6 A. In most instances.
7 Q. Now, in addition to Mr. El Hage, you also compared these
8 documents that you put in evidence today and many other?
9
10 documents that you examined not only of Mr. El Hage but also
11 you compared it with the fingerprints of other persons,
12 correct?
13 A. The prints that were not identified on those items, yes.
14 Q. And maybe two dozen people, a list of about two dozen
15 people would you say, is that a fair statement?
16 A. It varied, yes.
17 Q. But it could be as many as two dozen?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And in addition to these documents that you have
20 identified today, you also tested Mr. El Hage's or compared
21 Mr. El Hage's prints with many other documents?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And in fact, there were also other documents seized from
24 Mercy International that you tested or compared for
25 fingerprints?
3313
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Are you familiar with K317?
3 A. I'm not sure.
4 Q. Okay.
5 MR. DRATEL: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 Q. I show you what has been marked as 3522-32 and just ask
8 you to review that, and if you want also to review this
9 document which has been marked WEHXF for identification.
10 (Pause)
11 Q. Maybe you should keep that and I'll go through it.
12 Those are your -- well, withdrawn. You tested a
13 series of documents that are labeled K317.1 through K317.6?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. And those are receipts, three receipts and three
16 consignment notes, is that correct, for something called Jihan
17 Freighters, J-I-H-A-N, freighters?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. And on 317.1 it developed one latent print; is that
20 correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. 317.2, developed one latent print?
23 A. I'm not sure. Hold on.
24 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, can I approach?
25 THE COURT: Yes.
3314
1 (Pause)
2 Q. I will move on.
3 317.4 developed?
4 A. No.
5 Q. 317.5, though, there were five prints developed, correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And a palm print, correct?
8 A. Yes, five fingerprints and one palm print.
9 Q. And those were identified as belonging to Mohamed Karama
10 Salim, correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And on K317.6 there was one print developed, correct?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. And there were no other prints identified from those
15 documents except for Mohamed Karama Salim; is that right?
16 A. On 317?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. And you tested Mr. El Hage and -- you compared, rather,
20 Mr. El Hage and the others on the list that you had at that
21 time, correct?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. And that was a document seized from Mercy International,
24 right?
25 A. Yes.
3315
1 Q. Also, K323, it should be on the same set of documents for
2 your review, if you refresh your recollection.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. That was also seized from Mercy International, correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And that was a letter from a doctor dated June 1, 1996?
7 A. I'm not sure. Let me check.
8 Yes.
9 Q. Eight latent prints were developed from that document; is
10 that correct?
11 A. Eight fingerprints, yes.
12 Q. And six were identified as coming from Mr. Fazhul; is that
13 correct?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Do you know him also as Harun in your investigation?
16 A. Pardon?
17 Q. Mr. Fazhul, do you also know him as Harun in your
18 investigation?
19 A. No.
20 Q. The other two were not identified, is that correct?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. The remaining two fingerprints. And you checked Mr. El
23 Hage, correct, you compared -- you also compared for the other
24 people on your list; is that correct?
25 A. Correct.
3316
1 Q. K324, that's a document also seized from Mercy?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that's a letter with respect to the Fisheries
4 Department in Mombasa?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And how many prints were developed from that document, if
7 you could tell us.
8 A. Eight fingerprints and four palm prints.
9 Q. And the only ones that were identified were those
10 belonging to again Mohamed Karama Salim; is that correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And the others were tested or compared for all of the
13 other people on the list, including Mr. El Hage?
14 A. That's correct.
15 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, if I may, just to speed the
16 process, just give the witness right now --
17 THE COURT: Yes.
18 Q. Did you also examine and compare a document K546?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Withdrawn.
21 K547?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that's 15 passport-sized photos that were seized from
24 Mercy International; is that correct?
25 A. That's correct.
3317
1 Q. And there were three prints, three latent prints that were
2 developed from those photographs, correct?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. And they could not be identified, correct?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And you compared them to Mr. El Hage and all the other
7 persons on the list that you had?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And in fact, on that one, you also intercompared them with
10 other prints that you had on some other documents, isn't that
11 correct, not just the ink fingerprints but also with other
12 prints that had been developed?
13 A. Yes, I did that.
14 Q. In addition to documents seized from Mercy that you
15 examined, you also examined hundreds of other documents,
16 correct, in the investigation?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And not only documents, but you also examined objects that
19 were given to you, correct, as part of the investigation?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Including everything from a lotion bottle or a shampoo
22 bottle, correct?
23 A. I think so, yes.
24 Q. And many of those documents were from seizures in the
25 Comoros Islands; isn't that correct?
3318
1 A. I don't recall all the locations.
2 MR. DRATEL: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
3 Q. If you would just look through these for a second.
4 (Pause)
5 Q. Does that refresh your recollection that you examined many
6 documents, perhaps more than a hundred, from the Comoros
7 Islands?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Documents and objects?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And in fact, one of them, 308, I would just like to focus
12 on, which is the smaller document, and that's a notebook with
13 illustrations and drawings seized in the Comoros Islands,
14 correct?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. And the only fingerprint that was identifiable there was
17 from Mr. Fazhul, correct?
18 A. I don't see the print as being identified at this point.
19 Q. This may help.
20 A. There was one print developed. It's not been identified.
21 Q. But it was tested all the names on the list, including
22 Mr. El Hage, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, when you received a document or an object to examine
25 for fingerprint comparison, you assigned it a K number or a Q
3319
1 number; isn't that correct?
2 A. If it doesn't have one assigned at the time I receive it,
3 I will assign it. At this point, these were all assigned
4 previously before I ever received them.
5 Q. But if it doesn't have a K number or a Q number for a
6 document, would that indicate that it was not examined by you?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. So you would have put a K number or a Q number if it
9 didn't have it when it came to you, you would put it on?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. That would mean it was not examined for fingerprint
12 purposes, correct?
13 A. It probably wasn't examined in our laboratory. The policy
14 in our laboratory is it's assigned either a K or a Q for
15 tracking.
16 Q. My point is it's not examined for fingerprints in your
17 laboratory if it doesn't have a K number or a Q number?
18 A. There was probably no examination done.
19 Q. And do you recall ever examining or comparing any
20 documents that were seized from the home of Mr. El Hage in
21 Kenya?
22 A. Not from Kenya, no.
23 Q. In fact, in terms of the lists that you had of persons to
24 compare against, did you ever receive any inked fingerprints
25 from anyone to your knowledge who worked at Mercy
3320
1 International?
2 A. No.
3 MR. DRATEL: Nothing further, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Anything further?
5 MR. KARAS: Very briefly, your Honor.
6 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. KARAS:
8 Q. Sir, you testified on cross-examination that the FBI has a
9 laboratory that analyzes fingerprints, you recall that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Are there are also private laboratories that analyze
12 documents for fingerprints?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, if somebody touches a document, a paper document, do
15 they necessarily leave a fingerprint?
16 A. No.
17 Q. And even if they leave some type of fingerprint, can that
18 fingerprint always be lifted as an identifiable linked
19 fingerprint?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And with respect to the summary chart 659, if we could
22 display it for a minute, please.
23 In each of these instances where you were processing
24 the government exhibits that are contained in the second
25 column there, were you comparing any identifiable lifts with
3321
1 both Mr. El Hage and Mr. Fazhul, among others?
2 A. Yes, all unidentified prints were compared with the entire
3 list as it appears on the report.
4 Q. So, for example, the first exhibit there, Government
5 Exhibit 611, where you have identified Mr. El Hage's print, if
6 you had identified Mr. Fazhul's print, would you have put that
7 name in that column?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And with respect to Government Exhibit 615A, if you had
10 identified Mr. Fazhul's print, would you have put his name in
11 that column?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. KARAS: No further questions.
14 MR. DRATEL: Nothing further.
15 THE COURT: Thank you. You may step down.
16 (Witness excused)
17 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, the government and we would
18 stipulate that Fazhul on the chart is Harun, as has been
19 discussed.
20 THE COURT: The parties have stipulated that the
21 reference to Fazhul is a reference to somebody otherwise
22 identified as Harun.
23 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, your Honor.
24 MR. DRATEL: One other thing, your Honor. Apparently
25 we already had a WEHYF, so that would be G for identification.
3322
1 THE COURT: Very well. All right.
2 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I had previously offered
3 Government Exhibit 617. I was going to offer now Government
4 Exhibit 617T, the translation, subject to the same terms of
5 the stipulation.
6 THE COURT: 617T is received.
7 (Government Exhibit 617T received in evidence)
8 MR. FITZGERALD: I would like to read that into the
9 record.
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 (Government Exhibit 617T, in evidence, read)
12 MR. FITZGERALD: At this time, your Honor, the
13 government would call Abigail Seda.
14 THE COURT: Very well.
15 ABIGAIL SEDA, recalled.
16 MR. FITZGERALD: I was intending that the witness be
17 recalled.
18 THE COURT: Ma'am, the Court reminds you you are
19 still under oath.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 DIRECT EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
23 Q. I'll approach the witness with what has been premarked for
24 identification as Government Exhibits 364C, 365C and 594B.
25 Ms. Seda, I have put before you three charts.
3323
1 Starting with 364C, is that a chart you helped prepare and
2 then review for accuracy?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. And that chart includes telephone calls from certain
5 numbers. Is that the number indicated at the top of the
6 chart?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. And is the source of that information Government Exhibit
9 364B?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And does it reflect the calls between the number
12 408-244-1209 and three other numbers during the period of the
13 fall of 1994?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And is one of those numbers in Kenya?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And are the other two numbers in New York?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is that a fair and accurate chart of calls between the
20 number in area code 408 to those three numbers during the
21 period of October, November and December 1994?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And where the dates are listed and the times are listed,
24 what times are they?
25 A. That would be the local time for California.
3324
1 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, the government offers
2 364C.
3 THE COURT: Received.
4 (Government Exhibit 364C received in evidence)
5 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
6 Q. And next I would turn to 365C, and is that a chart you
7 also helped to prepare and review?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And does that reflect calls from another telephone number
10 in California?
11 A. Yes, it does.
12 Q. And are those toll calls reflected in what is marked as
13 Government Exhibit 365B?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Does that reflect two telephone calls made on a given date
16 in 1998 in a given time span of about ten minutes?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And does that chart accurately reflect the telephone
19 numbers dialed, according to the phone bills, for the number
20 916-338-1699?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. FITZGERALD: I would offer Government Exhibit
23 365C, your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Received.
25 (Government Exhibit 365C received in evidence)
3325
1 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
2 Q. And finally, I'll show you, you have in front of you what
3 has been marked as Government Exhibit 594B. Is that a chart
4 you also helped to prepare and review?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. Does that reflect telephone calls from the number
7 682505331?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Does that reflect calls from that number to a particular
10 telephone number in Yemen?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And does that chart fairly and accurately reflect the
13 calls to that number in Yemen appearing on the phone bills for
14 the phone number 682505331 for the period for which the bills
15 have been obtained?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I would offer Government
18 Exhibit 594B.
19 THE COURT: 594D?
20 MR. FITZGERALD: B.
21 THE COURT: 595B, as in boy, received.
22 (Government Exhibit 595B received in evidence)
23 MR. FITZGERALD: I have no further questions.
24