3 April 2001
Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of New York; (212) 805-0300.

This is the transcript of Day 26 of the trial, 3 April 2001.

See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm


   2   ------------------------------x


   4              v.                           S(7) 98 Cr. 1023


   6   USAMA BIN LADEN, et al.,

   7                  Defendants.

   8   ------------------------------x

                                               New York, N.Y.
  10                                           April 3, 2001
                                               9:45 a.m.


  13   Before:

  14                       HON. LEONARD B. SAND,

  15                                           District Judge












   1                            APPEARANCES

            United States Attorney for the
   3        Southern District of New York
   4        KENNETH KARAS
            PAUL BUTLER
   5        Assistant United States Attorneys

   8        Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage

  11        Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh

  13        Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali

            Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed











   1            (Trial resumes)

   2            THE COURT:  We will take up at 2:00 the issues raised

   3   in Mr. Ruhnke's letter of April 2nd concerning the SAMs and

   4   telephone calls.  We will be in attendance at that time.

   5            I understand that Agent Whitworth is not available

   6   this morning.  We will do something else this morning.

   7            MR. KARAS:  Yes, your Honor.  We're going to start

   8   off with two of the translators and then read some documents

   9   after they finish testifying.

  10            THE COURT:  All right.  I will explain that to the

  11   jury.  You expect him available this afternoon?

  12            MR. KARAS:  After lunch is our understanding.

  13            MR. FITZGERALD:  Yes, your Honor.

  14            THE COURT:  Very well.

  15            Anything else?  All right.  So the next event

  16   requires a witness or not a witness?

  17            MR. KARAS:  Yes, Judge, a witness.

  18            THE COURT:  And who is available?

  19            MR. KARAS:  A witness who is here, yes.

  20            THE COURT:  All right.  Let me see if the jury is

  21   available.

  22            MR. KARAS:  Judge, for the record, I had written the

  23   Court a letter about Mr. Saleh and Mr. Vaugh, the next two

  24   witnesses, about sketching.  I don't think it's an issue.

  25            (Brief recess)


   1            (Jury present)

   2            THE COURT:  Good morning.

   3            THE JURY:  Good morning.

   4            THE COURT:  When we adjourned yesterday, we were in

   5   the midst of the direct examination of Agent Mark Whitworth.

   6   He is unavailable this morning, but will be available this

   7   afternoon, so we're interrupting his testimony and going on to

   8   other matters.

   9            The government may call its next witness.

  10            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, the government calls Malek

  11   Saleh.

  12    MALEK SALEH,

  13        called as a witness by the government,

  14        having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

  15            DEPUTY CLERK:  Please state your full name.

  16            THE WITNESS:  Malek Saleh.

  17            DEPUTY CLERK:  Please spell your full name.

  18            THE WITNESS:  M-A-L-E-K S-A-L-E-H.

  19            DEPUTY CLERK:  S-A?

  20            THE WITNESS:  L-E-H.


  22   BY MR. KARAS:

  23   Q   Good morning, sir.

  24   A   Good morning.

  25   Q   Can you tell us in what part of the world you were born?


   1   A   In the Middle East, Arab country.

   2   Q   If I could just ask that you speak into the microphone and

   3   speak loudly and clearly.

   4            I'm sorry, if you can say again where you were born.

   5   A   I was born in an Arab country in the Middle East.

   6   Q   For how long did you live in that Arab country in the

   7   Middle East?

   8   A   26 years.

   9   Q   Can you tell us a little bit about your education in the

  10   country in the Middle East where you were born?

  11   A   I finished K through 12.

  12   Q   And what language did you study K through 12?

  13   A   Mostly Arabic.

  14   Q   Did you take any English classes in K through 12?

  15   A   Just a little bit.

  16   Q   Did there come a time that you came to the United States?

  17   A   Excuse me?

  18   Q   Did there come a time that you came to the United States?

  19   A   I came about 22, 23 years ago.

  20   Q   And when you came to the United States did you receive any

  21   additional education?

  22   A   Yes.  I took few month of ESL, English as Second Language,

  23   and finished my bachelor degree and my master degree and some

  24   postgraduate studies.

  25   Q   And your bachelor's, master's and postgraduate degree


   1   studies, what language was that in?

   2   A   English.

   3   Q   Can you tell us a little bit about your employment

   4   background?

   5   A   I was a tutor, translator, lecturer, assistant professor,

   6   teacher, and now I am a language specialist.

   7   Q   If we could go back a little bit to what kind of lecturer,

   8   what kinds of lecturing did you do?

   9   A   I did lecturing overseas in Saudi Arabia in allied medical

  10   sciences, epidemiology, health and human behavior.

  11   Q   What language were these lectures?

  12   A   It was supposed to be in English.

  13   Q   But it was in?

  14   A   Mostly turned into Arabic.

  15   Q   And what other types of teaching have you done?

  16   A   I taught epidemiology, health and human behavior in

  17   American college, high school teaching, and one year of

  18   teaching Arabic as well as, as need arises, Arabic instructor

  19   at Berlitz.

  20   Q   And what kind of program is Berlitz?

  21   A   Usually it's intensive courses in Arabic and other

  22   languages.  I did Arabic.

  23   Q   And you mentioned that you were a language specialist.

  24   For whom do you work as a language specialist?

  25   A   The Federal Bureau of Investigation.


   1   Q   Approximately when did you start working as a language

   2   specialist for the FBI?

   3   A   About two and a half years ago.

   4   Q   Can you tell us what you do as a language specialist?

   5   A   Mostly translation, documents, books, magazine articles,

   6   whatever I am asked to do.

   7   Q   When you translate, what language do you translate

   8   typically from and to?

   9   A   Typically from Arabic to English.

  10   Q   And do you do English to Arabic at all?

  11   A   I did, but not that much.

  12   Q   What types of documents have you done Arabic to English

  13   translations for the FBI?

  14   A   Different kinds.  I would say newspaper, magazine

  15   articles, political, economic, business, military, theology.

  16            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, may I approach the witness?

  17            THE COURT:  Yes.

  18   Q   For the record, sir, I have placed before you what have

  19   been marked for identification as Exhibits 1500-T, 1501-T,

  20   1537-T, 1542-T, 1554-T, 1555-T, 1556-T, 1557B-T, 1557C-T,

  21   1557D-T, 1557E-T, 1559-T, 1576B-T, 1579A-T, 1579B-T, 1579C-T,

  22   1580A through C-T, 1600A-T, 1602-T, 1605-T, 1606-T, 1610-T,

  23   1611-T, 1612-T, 1622-T, 1626A through C-T, and 1626D-T,

  24   1627-T, 1628A-T, 1629-T, 1631 through 1634-T, 1635A and B-T,

  25   1636-T, and 1638-T.


   1            Now, sir, did you have an opportunity to review those

   2   documents before you came to court today?

   3   A   Not today.  Yesterday.

   4   Q   Before today?

   5   A   Before today, yes, I did.

   6   Q   And can you tell us generally what those documents are?

   7   A   Some are communiques, some are telephone books, some are

   8   letters.

   9   Q   Can you tell us whether or not those are English

  10   translations that you reviewed or prepared?

  11   A   Yes, they are English translations.

  12   Q   And the translations that I just listed for you, can you

  13   tell us whether or not they were fair and accurate

  14   translations of Arabic documents that you compared them

  15   against?

  16   A   To the best of my knowledge and ability, yes.

  17   Q   And was there a way that you signified that on each of

  18   those documents I just listed?

  19   A   Yes, I initialized them and dated them.

  20            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, at this time, I offer the

  21   list of exhibits I read earlier.

  22            MR. SCHMIDT:  May I briefly have a voir dire?

  23            THE COURT:  Very well.


  25   BY MR. SCHMIDT:


   1   Q   Could you tell us which documents you reviewed and which

   2   documents you translated?

   3   A   It has been a long time since I did them, but I reviewed

   4   all of them.

   5   Q   Did you do the original translations as well?

   6   A   Some of them, yes.

   7   Q   Do you know which ones you did the original translations

   8   of?

   9   A   Right now, no, I cannot.

  10   Q   Do you know approximately how many you did the original

  11   translation of?

  12   A   I did most of them, most of the original translations.

  13   Q   Did you, when you -- withdrawn.  Did you review them

  14   recently before testifying?

  15   A   Yes, I did.

  16   Q   Did you make any changes in your review?

  17   A   Some of the -- some of them, yes.

  18            MR. SCHMIDT:  I have no objection at this time.  I

  19   will reserve the rest of my questioning for cross-examination.

  20            Thank you, your Honor.

  21            THE COURT:  The documents stated beginning with 1500T

  22   through 1638 as stated by the assistant U.S. attorney are

  23   received in evidence.

  24            (Government Exhibits 1500-T, 1501-T, 1537-T, 1542-T,

  25   1554-T, 1555-T, 1556-T, 1557B-T, 1557C-T, 1557D-T, 1557E-T,


   1   1559-T, 1576B-T, 1579A-T, 1579B-T, 1579C-T, 1580A through C-T,

   2   1600A-T, 1602-T, 1605-T, 1606-T, 1610-T, 1611-T, 1612-T,

   3   1622-T, 1626A through C-T, and 1626D-T, 1627-T, 1628A-T,

   4   1629-T, 1631 through 1634-T, 1635A and B-T, 1636-T, and 1638-T

   5   received in evidence.)

   6            MR. KARAS:  Thank you, your Honor.

   7   DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)

   8   BY MR. KARAS:

   9   Q   Sir, if you could turn to the translation marked 1557-T.

  10            Do you have 1557C-T?

  11   A   1557B-T.  Yes, I have it, 1557-C.

  12   Q   1557C-T?

  13   A   Uh-huh.

  14   Q   And if you could also pull 1580A-T.

  15   A   1588?

  16   Q   1580A-T.

  17   A   1580B-T.

  18   Q   1580A, as in apple, but you can keep B out because I will

  19   ask you about that one next.

  20   A   Okay.  Just a second.  I got it, 1580A.

  21   Q   Okay, if can you tell us by looking at 1557C-T and 1580A-T

  22   whether or not they are copies of the same document or if they

  23   are identically worded?

  24   A   Yes, sir, they are.

  25   Q   If you could do the same comparison for us between 1557E,


   1   as in Edward, and 1580C, as in Charlie.

   2   A   1557E, as in Edward, and the second one?

   3   Q   1580C.

   4   A   1580C.

   5   Q   And if you could also tell us whether or not those are

   6   identically worded.

   7   A   Yes, sir, they are.

   8   Q   And finally, if you could compare 1557D, as in Dianne, and

   9   1580B, as in boy, which I think you already have out.

  10            MR. SCHMIDT:  What was the other letter?

  11            MR. KARAS:  1580B is the second one.

  12   A   The first one, 1557D, as --

  13   Q   As in Dianne, yes.

  14   A   D, as in Dianne.  And the second one?

  15   Q   I think you have out already, 1580B, as in boy.  It's

  16   right in front of you on your left.

  17   A   1580B, as in boy.  Okay, I have them.

  18            Sir, I have them.

  19   Q   Can you tell us whether or not they are identically

  20   worded?

  21   A   Okay.

  22            Yes, sir, they are the same.  They are identical.

  23   Q   Sir, next I'm going to approach you with what have been

  24   marked for identification as 300B-T, 245-T, 362-T, 906-T,

  25   911-T, 908-T, 910-T, and 246-T.


   1            Sir, did you have a chance to review those exhibits

   2   before you came to court?

   3   A   Yes, sir.

   4   Q   And generally speaking, what are they?

   5   A   They are English translations of documents from Arabic.

   6   Q   Did you either prepare or review those translations?

   7   A   Yes, I did.

   8   Q   Can you tell us whether or not they are fair and accurate

   9   English translations of the Arabic documents you compared them

  10   to?

  11   A   To the best of my knowledge and ability, yes.

  12   Q   And how did you so signify on each of those documents?

  13   A   I initialized and dated them.

  14            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, at this time we offer the

  15   exhibits just listed.

  16            THE COURT:  300B, 245, 362, 906, 911, 908, 910 and

  17   246 received, all T.

  18            (Government Exhibits 300B-T, 245-T, 362-T, 906-T,

  19   911-T, 908-T, 910-T, and 246-T received in evidence.)

  20            MR. KARAS:  Thank you, your Honor.

  21   Q   Mr. Saleh, are you familiar with the Arabic word "dabit"?

  22   A   Yes, sir, I am.

  23   Q   And what does that word mean in English?

  24   A   It means an officer.

  25   Q   Okay.  And if we could display what is in evidence as --


   1   on the screen -- Government Exhibit 617, page 4.

   2            Sir, do you see where there is a name there at the

   3   end of that document?

   4   A   Yes, sir, I do.

   5   Q   What is the name that's signed at the end of that

   6   document?

   7   A   Noor al-Din al Bahhar.

   8   Q   If you could just speak into the microphone, sir.

   9   A   Noor al-Din al Bahhar.

  10   Q   Noor, N-O-O-R?

  11   A   Or N-O-U-R.

  12   Q   Al-Din, A-L-D-I-N?

  13   A   Or E-D-D-E-E-N.

  14   Q   Okay.  And the last word, if you could spell it, please?

  15   A   A-L-B-A-H-H-A-R.

  16   Q   Al Bahhar?

  17   A   Al Bahhar.

  18   Q   Can you tell us what "al Bahhar" means in English?

  19   A   "Al Bahhar" by itself means "the sailor."

  20   Q   Okay.  And if we could display on the Elmo page 3 of

  21   Government Exhibit 369.

  22            Sir, if you could look to the screen.  Do you see the

  23   number written in blue 181-931-8206?

  24   A   Yes, I do.

  25   Q   Is there an Arabic word right above that?


   1   A   Yes, there is.

   2   Q   Can you tell us what word that is in English?

   3   A   It is Anas.

   4   Q   If you could spell that, please?

   5   A   Could be spelled A-n-a-s.

   6            MR. KARAS:  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

   7            THE COURT:  Any questions of this witness?

   8            MR. SCHMIDT:  Yes.

   9            THE COURT:  Cross-examination by Mr. Schmidt on

  10   behalf of defendant El Hage.


  12   BY MR. SCHMIDT:

  13   Q   Did you review Government Exhibit 369 prior to testifying

  14   here today?  That's the telephone notebook that you last

  15   testified to.

  16   A   Yes, I did.

  17   Q   Did you review that at any time before that?

  18   A   Yes, I did.

  19   Q   When was the first time that you reviewed that book?

  20   A   I am not sure.

  21   Q   Do you know what year that you reviewed that book?

  22   A   This year.

  23   Q   Could you write for us the name Anas on a piece of paper?

  24            MR. SCHMIDT:  May I approach the witness, your Honor?

  25            THE COURT:  Yes.


   1   A   How many times?

   2   Q   Why don't you just do it two times.

   3   A   (Witness complies.)

   4            THE COURT:  You want it written in English?

   5   Q   No, no, if you could write it in Arabic.

   6            Now, could you skip a couple of lines and write the

   7   name Alice in Arabic.

   8   A   (Witness complies.)

   9   Q   And could you is skip a couple of lines and write the name

  10   Allen in Arabic.

  11   A   (Witness complies.)

  12            THE COURT:  How are you spelling Allen?

  13            MR. SCHMIDT:  Excuse me?

  14            THE COURT:  How are you spelling Allen?

  15            MR. SCHMIDT:  I believe it's phonetic.

  16            THE COURT:  All right.

  17   Q   When you write a word that I ask you to write, especially

  18   a name, from English to Arabic, do you write it phonetically?

  19   A   Yes.

  20   Q   And would it be accurate to say that when you are

  21   translating from Arabic to English, the spelling of the word

  22   in English can vary, depending on the individual translator?

  23   A   From English to Arabic?

  24   Q   From Arabic to English.

  25   A   Yes, sir.


   1   Q   Sometimes, for example, the Q sound is also written with a

   2   K?

   3   A   Yes, sir.

   4   Q   So when you are writing Allen, you are writing it

   5   phonetically into Arabic; is that correct?

   6   A   Yes.

   7            THE COURT:  We'll mark that C for identification, Mr.

   8   Schmidt?

   9            MR. SCHMIDT:  Yes.  What number are we up to?

  10   W-H-X-H.

  11   Q   Actually, would you write one more name on the bottom.  If

  12   you could write Alice?

  13   A   I wrote Alice.

  14   Q   I mean Annie.  I'm sorry.

  15            THE COURT:  Annie?

  16   A   (Witness complies.)

  17            THE COURT:  So that sheet contains Anas written twice

  18   and then Alice, Allen and Annie, is that what you have

  19   written?

  20            MR. SCHMIDT:  Yes.

  21            THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

  22   Q   I see you have --

  23            THE COURT:  Is the English there, also?

  24            MR. SCHMIDT:  There is no English on there now.  Why

  25   don't we have the witness write down the English.


   1            THE COURT:  What is the exhibit number?

   2            MR. SCHMIDT:  H.

   3            THE COURT:  H, for identification.

   4   A   How do you want me to spell Alice, like the Wonderland?

   5   Q   Spell it the way that you believe it should be spelled.

   6            When you first reviewed this notebook and that name,

   7   did you find it difficult to decipher the actual name?

   8   A   No, not really, although it's not a very common name, but

   9   it was very obvious.

  10   Q   I note that the -- you drew Anas with a fairly straight

  11   line across; is that right?

  12   A   That's one way to write it.

  13   Q   And you wrote Allen with a line going up.

  14            Could we put this on the --

  15            MR. SCHMIDT:  Offer this into evidence, your Honor.

  16            MR. KARAS:  No objection.

  17            THE COURT:  WEH H received.

  18            (Defendant's Exhibit WEH H received in evidence.)

  19            MR. SCHMIDT:  Can we put this on the Elmo, please?

  20   Q   Now, you drew Anas with a straight line across; is that

  21   right?

  22   A   The first --

  23   Q   Yes.

  24   A   Yes.

  25   Q   And Allen, sort of coming up?


   1   A   Yes.

   2   Q   Now, in the book the word that you translated "Anas" isn't

   3   a straight line across, is it?  Do you recall?

   4   A   Could you please repeat that?

   5   Q   The word "Anas" isn't written with a straight line across

   6   the top, it's written with a line going up?

   7   A   Yes.

   8   Q   Why don't we put that on the screen also.

   9            Prior to the second time that you reviewed this book,

  10   were you asked whether that name was Anas, A-N-A-S?

  11   A   Well, first, I wrote it Anas, and then I was asked if it

  12   is really Anas, and I agreed.

  13   Q   When was it when you first wrote that it was Anas?

  14   A   First time?

  15   Q   Yes.

  16   A   I think about last month.  I'm not sure.

  17   Q   Did you review the whole book when you were reviewing it

  18   last month?

  19   A   No, not the whole book.  I have copies, xerox copies,

  20   photocopies.

  21   Q   Did you review the whole Xerox copies?

  22   A   I'm not sure if I -- I did not review the book itself.

  23   Q   How many names did you review?

  24   A   I'm not sure.  I can't answer you.

  25   Q   Is it couple of names, hundreds of names, or somewhere in


   1   between?

   2   A   I reviewed a lot of phone books and some of them were

   3   extensive and some of them were ten, fifteen, some were more.

   4   Q   In this book how many did you review?

   5   A   I did not have this book itself.

   6   Q   You had pieces of paper, individual --

   7   A   Pieces of paper, yes.

   8   Q   Were they combined as if in one book, some of them?

   9   A   Yes, I would say.

  10   Q   Were you specifically asked to translate that one, that

  11   name?

  12   A   I was asked to double-check that name.

  13            MR. SCHMIDT:  I have no further questions with this

  14   witness.

  15            THE COURT:  Any redirect?

  16            MR. COHN:  I have a few questions, your Honor.

  17            THE COURT:  Mr. Cohn on behalf of the defendant

  18   Al-'Owhali.

  19            MR. COHN:  Thank you, your Honor.


  21   BY MR. COHN:

  22   Q   Sir, when you do a translation from a document, you have

  23   the luxury, do you not, of being precise, because if there are

  24   words you're not sure of, you can use a dictionary; is that

  25   fair?


   1   A   Yes.

   2   Q   And so would you agree with me that a translation from a

   3   written source is different than doing translation orally as a

   4   conversation takes place?

   5   A   I would assume so.

   6   Q   And in Arabic is it not true that there are a number of

   7   different dialects or differences in speaking due to the

   8   region which the speaker may come from?

   9   A   Right you are.

  10   Q   And in fact, somebody even goes down, if you know, from a

  11   place like Lebanon, where the Christian community lives in a

  12   different section than the Arabic community, there's sometimes

  13   differences in nuance and idiom; is that right?

  14   A   I would say, well, Christian and Arabs, they are all

  15   Arabs, but, yes, the region, there are regional differences.

  16   Q   So if somebody from Lebanon was translating from somebody,

  17   say, from Saudi Arabia, there might be differences in nuance

  18   that there might be small mistakes made during a simultaneous

  19   translation, is that not fair?

  20   A   I would assume so.

  21            MR. COHN:  Thank you.  I have nothing further.

  22            THE COURT:  Anything further?

  23            MR. KARAS:  No, your honor.

  24            THE COURT:  Thank you.  You may step down.

  25            THE WITNESS:  Thank you.


   1            (Witness excused)

   2            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, the government calls Benjamin

   3   Vaughn.


   5        called as a witness by the government,

   6        having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

   7            DEPUTY CLERK:  Please state your full name name, sir.

   8            THE WITNESS:  Benjamin Vaughn, V-A-U-G-H-N.

   9            DEPUTY CLERK:  V-A-U?

  10            THE WITNESS:  G-H-N.

  11            DEPUTY CLERK:  Thank you.


  13   BY MR. KARAS:

  14   Q   Good morning, sir.

  15   A   Good morning.

  16   Q   Can you tell us in what part of the world you were born?

  17   A   In the Middle East.

  18   Q   And for how long did you live in the Middle East?

  19   A   About 18 years.

  20   Q   And can you tell us a little bit about your education in

  21   the Middle East?

  22   A   Yes, I went to high school for 12 years there.

  23   Q   And what languages did you study in?

  24   A   Arabic, English.

  25   Q   And did there come a time that you came to the United


   1   States?

   2   A   Pardon?

   3   Q   Did there come a time you came to the United States?

   4   A   By the time I came here?

   5   Q   When did you come here?

   6   A   I'm sorry, 1985.

   7   Q   And how old were you when you came here?

   8   A   18.

   9   Q   And can you tell us about what education you received

  10   after you came to the United States?

  11   A   I studied junior college and then at university I have a

  12   B.A. and then I went on for an M.A.

  13   Q   In what field, sir?

  14   A   International relations.

  15   Q   And in what language did you study international

  16   relations?

  17   A   English, and I did my research in Arabic.

  18   Q   I'm sorry?

  19   A   And I did my research in Arabic.

  20   Q   And can you tell us a little bit about your employment

  21   after you received your master's?

  22   A   I taught Arabic and Arabic cultures at one of the junior

  23   colleges in the states, and then I went on to be employed by

  24   the FBI since 1996.

  25   Q   What do you do for the FBI?


   1   A   I'm a language specialist.

   2   Q   And you've been there since when?  I'm sorry.

   3   A   1996.

   4   Q   And what type of work have you done as a language

   5   specialist for the FBI?

   6   A   We do all kind of translations from Arabic into English

   7   and English into Arabic.  Topics varies between business,

   8   geography, politics, you name it.

   9   Q   Sir, I'm going to approach you with what have been

  10   premarked for identification as Exhibits 1502-T, 1503-T,

  11   1504-T, 1505-T, 1506-T, 1507-T, 1508-T, 1509-T, 1510-T,

  12   1511-T, 1512-T, 1513-T, 1514-T, 1515-T, 1516-T, 1517-T,

  13   1518-T, 1519-T, 1520-T, 1522-T, 1523-T, 1524-T, 1525-T,

  14   1526-T, 1527-T, 1528-T, 1529-T, 1530-T, 1532-T, 1533-T,

  15   1534-T, 1540-T and 1558-T.

  16            Sir, generally speaking, did you have a chance to

  17   review -- if you want to take a look there.

  18   A   Yes, I have.

  19   Q   Before you came to court today, did you have a chance to

  20   review those documents?

  21   A   Yes, I did.

  22   Q   Can you tell us generally what they are?

  23   A   They are actually Arabic documents, some are typed, some

  24   are handwritten.  I did the translation and then I reviewed

  25   them twice.


   1   Q   And can you tell us whether or not the translations that

   2   you did are fair and accurate translations of the Arabic

   3   originals?

   4   A   Yes, they are.

   5   Q   And how is it that you signified that they are accurate?

   6   A   I went through the Arabic a few times and then translated

   7   them, and I reviewed them more than once, actually.

   8   Q   And when you finished reviewing the translations, did you

   9   do anything to the translations themselves, the documents?

  10   A   I changed a few things, yes.  I went back to make them

  11   look better.

  12   Q   When you were done, did you have a chance to review the

  13   translations one last time?

  14   A   Yes, I did.

  15   Q   Did you do anything to the translations?  Did you initial

  16   and date them?

  17   A   Yes, I initial and dated them, yes.

  18            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, we offer the exhibits I

  19   listed earlier.

  20            THE COURT:  1502 through 1520, 1522 through 30, 1533,

  21   34, 40 and 58, all with the suffix T, received.

  22            (Government Exhibits 1502-T, 1503-T, 1504-T, 1505-T,

  23   1506-T, 1507-T, 1508-T, 1509-T, 1510-T, 1511-T, 1512-T,

  24   1513-T, 1514-T, 1515-T, 1516-T, 1517-T, 1518-T, 1519-T,

  25   1520-T, 1522-T, 1523-T, 1524-T, 1525-T, 1526-T, 1527-T,


   1   1528-T, 1529-T, 1530-T, 1532-T, 1533-T, 1534-T, 1540-T and

   2   1558-T received in evidence.)

   3            MR. KARAS:  No further questions.

   4            THE COURT:  Anything of this witness?

   5            Thank you, sir.  You may step down.

   6            THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

   7            (Witness excused)

   8            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, at this time we would like to

   9   display some of the exhibits, and we will start, if we could,

  10   with Government Exhibit 1626A, which is one of the documents

  11   downloaded from the computer disk found in 94 Dewsbury, Khalid

  12   al Fawwaz's residence, and if we could display 1626A-T.

  13            And if we could focus on the first three entries,

  14   Khalid, the message, and ARC, on the full screen.  The first

  15   row, Khalid, the second reads the message, and across under

  16   the column marked Cr. Date, 31/7/96, 11:31 a.m.

  17            The next row across 184 reads under the column Cr.

  18   Date, 31/8/96, 10:31 a.m.  The next, K5, the next row reading

  19   across under Cr. Date, 1/9/96, 8 p.m.

  20            And if we could display 1626B, and then if we could

  21   display 1626B-T, and reading just the title, "Declaration of

  22   Holy War against the Americans Who are Occupying the Land of

  23   the Two Holy Places.  Expel the polytheist out of the Arabian

  24   Peninsula.  A message from Usama Bin Muhammed Bin Landen.  The

  25   to the Muslim brethren worldwide and specially in the Arabian


   1   Peninsula."

   2            And if we could display 1626C, and then if we could

   3   display 1626C-T.  And reading the title, "Declaration of Holy

   4   War Against the Americans who Are Occupying the Land of the

   5   Two Holy Places."

   6            Below, the next line, "A message from Usama Bin

   7   Muhammed Bin Laden to his Muslim brethren worldwide and

   8   specially in the Arabian Peninsula."

   9            For the record, 1626B and C are two of the documents

  10   found on the disk located in 94 Dewsbury.

  11            Next if we could display 1600A, the first page, and

  12   if we could display 1600A-T, the first page.

  13            (Government Exhibit 1600A-T read)

  14            MR. KARAS:  And if we could display Government's

  15   Exhibit 1628A, one of the documents found in 94 Dewsbury, and

  16   if we could display 1628A-T, I believe it is.  Reading again

  17   the title, "Declaration of Holy War Against the Americans Who

  18   are Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places."  A couple

  19   lines below, "A message from Usama Bin Muhammed Bin Laden to

  20   his Muslim brethren worldwide and specially in the Arabian

  21   Peninsula."

  22            Next, if we could display Exhibit 1633, and next if

  23   we could display 1626D, which is one of the documents found on

  24   the disk marked as 1626.  And if we could display 1626D-T, the

  25   first page.


   1            (Government Exhibit 1626D-T read.)

   2            MR. KARAS:  And if we could go to page 8 of 1626-T,

   3   and if we could focus on the paragraph beginning with,

   4   "Second, on the administrative issues," and go all the way

   5   down.

   6            (Continued on next page)





















   1            MR. KARAS:  (Continuing) "Second, on the

   2   administrative issues, in order to solve the problem of

   3   communication, it is indispensable to buy the satellite phone.

   4   In order to deliver the statements and perhaps the magazine in

   5   the future, it is necessary to unify the computer units and

   6   its entire equipment in terms of systems, programs, and lines,

   7   etc.  In order to solve my psychological problems, the

   8   following is inevitable:  1.  One authorized party should be

   9   put in charge of the orders, instructions and requests.  2.

  10   To immediately stop involving me in work situations which

  11   cause security or legal problems.  3.  The administrative unit

  12   at the main office should be completely independent and

  13   separate.  4.  A yearly budget with reserved funds should be

  14   put at the disposition of the main office.  5.  A review in

  15   the current mechanism of taking decisions pertaining to the

  16   affairs of the committee."

  17            Next, if we could display on the left side of the

  18   screen 221A-T.  This is one of the calls, the wiretap in Kenya

  19   involving the line 820067, and if we could go to the last

  20   page.  Sorry, I will read, if we can put up on the full

  21   screen --

  22            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, I have an objection.  May

  23   we approach?

  24            THE COURT:  Yes.

  25            (In the corridor)


   1            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, this document or transcript

   2   and exhibit has already been placed in evidence and has

   3   already been published to the jury.  Republishing it is in the

   4   nature of testifying, so I would object for them to republish

   5   it.

   6            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, I don't think it has been

   7   read.

   8            MR. FITZGERALD:  It was in the list of transcripts to

   9   be read.  We were going to read it now for the first time.

  10            THE COURT:  There is no question that in the more

  11   traditional fashion, as each of these documents would come in

  12   there would be a witness on the stand who would identify the

  13   document, indicate the source, would tie it in and so on, and

  14   that this is an expedited way of doing it.  Whether it is the

  15   most effective or not is not for me to say but it is certainly

  16   permissible.  Overruled.

  17            (In open court)

  18            MR. KARAS:  On top, the date September 18, 1997, time

  19   12:19, line 820067.  Participants UM, unknown male, April El

  20   Hage.  Then into the call, incoming call, conversation in

  21   Arabic between April and UM, unidentified male.

  22            (Government Exhibit 221A-T read to the jury)

  23            MR. KARAS:  If we could keep that second page on the

  24   left side of the screen, and focus on the lower half.  On the

  25   right side of the screen if we could display Exhibit 1629-T,


   1   the 32nd page, and focus on the top entry.  This is from one

   2   of the books found at 94 Dewsbury Road, in Khalid al Fawwaz's

   3   apartment.  Reading from the parentheses.  Dr. Mohamed Atef,

   4   tel. call-in 088505331, fax call-in 682505332.  If we could

   5   display on the right side of the screen the first page of

   6   Government's Exhibit 4 -- the third page of Government's

   7   Exhibit 4.

   8            Next if we could display on the right side of the

   9   screen Government's Exhibit 1631-T13A, and if we could focus

  10   at the bottom entry there, this is from a different address

  11   book found at 94 Dewsbury, Khalid al Fawwaz's residence.

  12   Reading from the record, unintelligible, Mohamed Atef, care of

  13   T/O unintelligible 1495 Karachi fax call-in 009281 tel.

  14   call-in 0092216621504.

  15            If we could go to 1631-T13B, the next page, and the

  16   top entry.  Direct 24 hours, 8376550655.  Tel. call-in 877460.

  17   Fax - Nadin:  001221 42591463.  Mobile:  321, 7266846.  391,

  18   351, 342, Abu al Jareit.

  19            If on the left side of the screen if we could display

  20   Government's Exhibit 1501A, first page.  If we could just

  21   focus on the first five or six entries.  On the right side of

  22   the screen, if we could display the first page of Government's

  23   Exhibit 4 and on the left side, for the record, the fifth

  24   entry, Abo Abdulla, triple at sign, 0008736820505331, below

  25   that fax and across, number 2.


   1            Next if we could display on the full screen

   2   Government's Exhibit 1605, one of the documents found at 94

   3   Dewsbury.  At the top A.R.C., Advice and Reformation

   4   Committee, London office.

   5            (Government's Exhibit 1605 read to the jury)

   6            MR. KARAS:  If we could redisplay on the left side of

   7   the screen 1606 and on the right side of the screen 1600A-13,

   8   one of the documents found at 94 Dewsbury -- actually, if we

   9   could display the second page of 1600A.  If we could display

  10   the second page of 1600A-T.  OK, the next page.  Reading in

  11   the bold the title "Declaration of holy war against the

  12   Americans who are occupying the land of the two holy places."

  13   Below, skipping a line, "A message from Usama Bin Muhammad Bin

  14   Laden to his Muslim breathren worldwide and especially the

  15   Arabian peninsula."

  16            If we could go to the last page of 1600A, not the

  17   translation, and if you could highlight the signature lines.

  18            Next if we could display on the screen 1636, another

  19   document found at 94 Dewsbury.  If we could display 1636-T,

  20   the translation.

  21            (Government Exhibit 1636-T read to the jury)

  22            MR. KARAS:  Next, if we could display 1602, one of

  23   the documents found at 94 Dewsbury.  If we could display the

  24   translation 1602-T.

  25            (Government's Exhibit 1602-T read to the jury)


   1            MR. KARAS:  Next, if we could display on the left

   2   side of the screen 1065A.  If we could focus on the "Things to

   3   do" sheet.  This was one of the items found in Capetown, South

   4   Africa, in Khalfan Mohamed's residence.  On the right if we

   5   could display 1631-TB, one of the books found in Khalfn

   6   Mohamed's residence.  If we could focus on the third entry.

   7   On the left under "Things to do," 2190366789.  On the right,

   8   Abdel Rahman Ben Mohamed Ali Yaffi, POB 5425, the Yemenite

   9   Republic, tel. 9671219036.

  10            Next if we could see display Exhibit 1627, document

  11   found at 94 Dewsbury.  If we could display the translation

  12   1627-T.  Reading from the top, Wadih's address, P.O. Box

  13   72239, Nairobi, Kenya.  Next, Ahmad's address, P.O. Box 44445,

  14   Nairobi, Kenya.  Below that address in America for one of the

  15   Islamic centers, Mr. M. Al-Halak, 138 Kings Row, Arlington TX

  16   76010, USA.

  17            Next if we could display 1631-17B, translation in the

  18   address book, 94 Dewsbury.  If we could focus on the entry

  19   fourth from the bottom.  (Unintelligible) America.  Hammana,

  20   tel. 520682702-7473413 (Unintelligible) 002542820067.

  21            Next if we could display 1635A, another document

  22   found at 94 Dewsbury, and have 1635B.  If we could display the

  23   translation 1635A-T.

  24            (Government's Exhibit 1635-T read to the jury)

  25            THE COURT:  We will take our mid-morning break.


   1            (Jury excused)

   2            THE COURT:  Next order of business?

   3            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, we are going to do a little

   4   bit more of the Dewsbury and then call Mitch Hollars.

   5            (Recess)

   6            (Jury present)

   7            THE COURT:  The government may continue.

   8            MR. KARAS:  Thank you, your Honor.  If we could

   9   display 1635B-T.  This is a translation of one of the

  10   documents found at 94 Dewsbury.

  11            (Government's Exhibit 1635B-T read to the jury)

  12            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, at this time and with the

  13   consent of defense counsel, we offer Exhibit 1537, which for

  14   the record is an additional document from the evidence bag

  15   that was marked as 1502-ID, which were documents taken from 38

  16   Waldo Road, the residence of Ibrahim Eidarous, as well as

  17   Government's Exhibit 1610, which was pulled from Government's

  18   Exhibit 1622-ID, which was not marked in evidence, and 1611,

  19   which was also pulled from 1622-ID, and finally 1612, which

  20   was pulled from 1633-ID.  The last three documents are from 94

  21   Dewsbury Road.  So, your Honor, we are offering 1537, 1610,

  22   1611 and 1612.

  23            THE COURT:  Received.

  24            (Government's Exhibits 1537 and 1610-1612 received in

  25   evidence)


   1            MR. KARAS:  If we could display 1537, which again for

   2   the record is seized -- this document is seized from

   3   Eidarous's vehicle.  If we could display the translation,

   4   1537-T.

   5            (Government's Exhibit 1537-T read to the jury)

   6            MR. KARAS:  If we could display Exhibit 1612, which

   7   is one of the documents taken from 94 Dewsbury.  Why don't we

   8   try 1612-T, which is the English translation.  If we could

   9   display 1611, which is the new exhibit and address book found

  10   at 94 Dewsbury.  And if we could try page 7 of that exhibit.

  11   If we could display the translation, 1611-T-7, and focus on

  12   the last two entries.  Reading the last line, Wadih 071202219.

  13            If we could display the first page of Exhibit 1583,

  14   which are phone records, and focus on the middle, Mr. K. al

  15   Fauwaz, 94 Dewsbury Road on the right, telephone number

  16   01812084411, and if we could display the first page of 1581.

  17   Mr. K. al Fauwaz, 94 Dewsbury Road, London, on the right,

  18   telephone number 01812084422.

  19            And finally the first page of Exhibit 1582, Mr. K. al

  20   Fauwaz, 94 Dewsbury Road, London, telephone number on the

  21   right 01812084433.  And if we could display the printout of

  22   the Casio found in the vehicle, 1501A, the first page.  If we

  23   could focus on about two thirds of the way down, Abo Omar,

  24   1812084411, and below that 4422.  Next to 4422 reads OF.

  25            1612-T, a document found at 94 Dewsbury.


   1            (Government's Exhibit 1612-T read to the jury)

   2            MR. KARAS:  Next if we could display Exhibit 1550.

   3   This is one of the leases.  Reading at the top, this license

   4   is made the 20th day of March 1997, between Lancefield

   5   Studios, and then reading from the handwriting, and Adel Abd

   6   al Majid of 63 Severn House, 17 Dowland Street, right above

   7   street, AB seems crossed out, Delbary.  London W10 4UB.

   8            Below that, the International Office for the Defense

   9   of the Egyptian People.  A little further down in the document

  10   to the license period.  This license shall subsist from the

  11   20th day of March 1997 until the 28th day of February 1998.

  12            Right above that where it says premises.  In respect

  13   of the licensor's building and land at 1A Beethoven Street,

  14   London W10 4LG, hereinafter property, the licensor grants to

  15   the licensee the full license and permission to use studio

  16   number 5.

  17            If we could go to the last page of that document.

  18            Next if we could display Exhibit 1552, and at the top

  19   the date there listed is 20th day of February 1998, and the

  20   handwritten name is Abdel Ali Majid, 63 Severn House, 17

  21   Dowland Street.  If we could go to the license period, 20th

  22   day of Feb 1998 until the 31st day of Jan 1999.  And in the

  23   premises studio number 5.

  24            Now if we could go to the last page.  The licensee

  25   English handwriting Adel Abdel Majid date 20-2-98.


   1            Next, 1553, if we could display the first page, if we

   2   could go back up to the date.  The date 3rd day of September

   3   1997 and the handwritten name there Khaled Abdul Rahman al

   4   Fauwaz, 94 Dewsbury Road.  If we could focus on the premises

   5   and the license period.  Studio number 5, this license shall

   6   subsist from the 20th day of March 1997 until the 20th day of

   7   Feb 1998.  If we could go to the last page and line, the top

   8   half, witnessed by Adel Abdel Majid.  Below signature address

   9   of witness, 63 Severn House, 17 Dowland Street, London W10

  10   4UB.  And the name of the licensee Khaled al Fauwaz, date

  11   4/9/97, witnessed by Adel Abdel el Majid.

  12            Next if we could display Exhibit 1561, one of the

  13   documents found at unit 5, 1A Beethoven Street, and if we

  14   could rotate that and focus on the label.  Mr. Khalid al

  15   Fauwaz, 94 Dewsbury Road, London, NW10 1EP.

  16            Your Honor, at this time the government recalls

  17   Mitchell Hollars.

  18    MITCHELL HOLLARS, recalled.

  19            THE COURT:  Mr. Hollars, the court reminds you you

  20   are still under oath.

  21            THE WITNESS:  Yes.


  23   BY MR. KARAS:

  24   Q   Good afternoon, sir.

  25   A   Good afternoon.


   1   Q   Are you still a fingerprint examiner with the FBI?

   2   A   Yes.

   3   Q   Did there come a time that you were asked to process

   4   documents that you were told were from Mohamed Sadeek Odeh?

   5   A   Yes.

   6   Q   In processing those documents, did you follow the

   7   suggested protocol that you described in earlier testimony?

   8   A   Yes.

   9   Q   Can you tell us whether or not you prepared notes and any

  10   reports after you processed these items?

  11   A   Yes, I did.

  12            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, may I approach the witness?

  13            THE COURT:  Yes.

  14   Q   Sir, I have placed before you what has been marked for

  15   identification as Government's Exhibit 539.  Can you tell us

  16   what that is?

  17   A   That is a summary of my examination on two different

  18   items.

  19   Q   Have you compared this summary with your notes and the

  20   reports you prepared in connection with these particular

  21   items?

  22   A   Yes.

  23   Q   Can you tell us whether or not the information that is

  24   contained on the summary is accurate in comparison to your

  25   notes and your reports?


   1   A   It is.

   2            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, at this time we offer Exhibit

   3   539.

   4            MR. WILFORD:  No objection.

   5            THE COURT:  Received.

   6            (Government's Exhibit 539 received in evidence)

   7            MR. KARAS:  If we could display 539.  May I approach

   8   the witness, your Honor?

   9            THE COURT:  Yes.

  10   Q   Sir, I have placed before you what are marked for

  11   identification as Government's Exhibits Exhibits 536 and 537.

  12   Starting with 536, can you tell us what that is?

  13   A   It is a book.  It is entitled Teach Yourself Swahili.

  14   Q   Do you recognize that as a book that you processed for

  15   latent fingerprints?

  16   A   Yes.

  17   Q   Looking at the chart that is marked as 539, can you tell

  18   us what processes you used and which ones actually helped to

  19   identify any latent fingerprints?

  20   A   I first used the visual examination.  It was examined

  21   under laser and alternate light source.  I then processed it

  22   with the DFO process and followed it up with the ninhydrin

  23   process, and with the ninhydrin I was able to develop 28

  24   fingerprints and 4 palm prints.

  25   Q   According to the chart, were you able to identify and


   1   process any latent fingerprints that you developed?

   2   A   25.

   3   Q   Whose fingerprints were you able to identify?

   4   A   Mohamed Odeh.

   5   Q   And the other exhibit, 537, can you just tell us what that

   6   is?

   7   A   It is a Humsafar magazine.

   8   Q   According to the chart, can you briefly tell us what

   9   process you used to develop the prints on that exhibit.

  10   A   It was also examined visually with the laser and alternate

  11   light source, and then it was processed with the super glue or

  12   cyanoacrylate process, which was followed up with magnetic

  13   powder, DFO, ninhydrin and RAM, which is a fluorescent dye

  14   stain, and then re-examined with the laser again.

  15   Q   Earlier you testified about the protocol that you followed

  16   with respect to porous items.  Do you recall that testimony?

  17   A   Yes.

  18   Q   Normally would you use super glue on porous items such as

  19   standard paper?

  20   A   No.

  21   Q   According to the chart here it appears you used super glue

  22   with respect to the 537, the magazine.  Can you tell us why

  23   you did that?

  24   A   Yes.  The magazine cover and several pages, most of the

  25   pages, are treated, which gives them a glossy effect.  When


   1   you have an item such as those, sometimes the prints are left

   2   on the surface such as a nonporous item.  Sometimes they are

   3   absorbed in too.  So we first have to target the item as if it

   4   was a nonporous item.  We target with the super glue, which

   5   will protect the prints that are on the surface.  Then we can

   6   subsequently follow with processes that will target any

   7   residue that has been absorbed into the paper itself.

   8            (Continued on next page)



















   1   Q   Now, between the paper that was used or, rather, that

   2   makes up the book as 536 and the paper that is 537, which is

   3   more porous?

   4   A   Exhibit 536, the regular paper, print paper.

   5            MR. KARAS:  May I approach the witness, your Honor?

   6            THE COURT:  Yes.

   7   Q   Mr. Hollars, I have placed before you what is marked in

   8   evidence as Government Exhibit 704.  If you can just tell us

   9   what that is for the record.

  10   A   It's a book that's entitled "Crown Bird Exercise Book."

  11   Q   Did you process that book for latent prints as well?

  12   A   Yes.

  13   Q   And can you tell us a little bit about the specific

  14   protocol that you followed for that book?

  15   A   I followed the same protocol that I did on Exhibit 536,

  16   the visual laser DFO and Ninhydrin, and then I subsequently

  17   processed it with a physical developer processor, what is

  18   known as PD.

  19   Q   Now, the Ninhydrin, it does what when you are examining

  20   for prints?

  21   A   It reacts with amino acids that are present in the

  22   fingerprint residue and will turn that residue, when the

  23   reaction takes place, it turns those prints to a purple color.

  24   Q   And when you applied the Ninhydrin to 536, the book, did

  25   the prints turn the purple color?


   1   A   Yes.

   2   Q   And can you tell us what happened when you applied the

   3   Ninhydrin to the book that is marked as 704?

   4   A   These pages all tended to turn blue, to a certain extent,

   5   without any prints being visible.

   6   Q   And based on your experience, do you have an explanation

   7   as to why that happened?

   8   A   No, just something to do with either the manufacturing of

   9   the paper or an ingredient in the paper itself.

  10   Q   And what is it about the ingredient in the paper that

  11   would cause the paper to turn blue when you applied the

  12   Ninhydrin?

  13   A   I'm not sure.

  14   Q   Is there anything about the ingredients in the paper that

  15   would affect its ability to be a porous surface?

  16   A   No.

  17   Q   And is there anything about the nature of the paper or the

  18   concept of the paper that would affect whether or not latent

  19   fingerprints would be left on that paper?

  20   A   I'm not sure really what happened.  It's just that the

  21   processes just did not work the way they normally work on

  22   like, for instance, Exhibit 536.

  23   Q   Have you in your experience processed paper that is

  24   similar to the paper that is in 704 in other cases?

  25   A   Only a couple times.


   1   Q   And what happened in those other couple of times?

   2   A   Basically the same result.

   3            MR. KARAS:  Thank you.  No further questions.


   5   BY MR. WILFORD:

   6   Q   Good afternoon, Agent Hollars.  How are you?

   7   A   I'm fine, thanks.

   8   Q   Now, Agent, when you were examining these documents, these

   9   three items, which ones did you examine first?

  10   A   Exhibit 536 and 537 were examined first.

  11   Q   When is it that you examined Exhibit 704?

  12   A   It was in April and May of 2000.

  13   Q   Sir, did you receive a special instruction to examine that

  14   particular exhibit?

  15   A   No.

  16   Q   You had examined 536 and 537 when?

  17   A   That was done in October of '99.

  18   Q   So a full, what, eight months later, seven months later?

  19   A   About six months.

  20   Q   And almost two years after the bombing you examined, and

  21   two years after the seizure of that particular document you

  22   just decided to examine it?

  23   A   No, I didn't receive it until March of 2000.

  24   Q   So you didn't get 704 until March?

  25   A   The end of March, first of April, yes.


   1   Q   Who sent it to you?

   2   A   It came from what is known as our explosives unit.

   3   Q   So it had already gone through some type of examination at

   4   the explosives unit; isn't that correct?

   5   A   Yes.

   6   Q   So you don't know whether or not the examination that

   7   occurred at the explosives unit had any impact at all on the

   8   paper that you then examined for fingerprints, do you?

   9   A   I don't know what kind of examination was done, no.

  10   Q   So you don't know whether or not that had an impact on it,

  11   right, because you just don't know?

  12   A   I don't know.

  13   Q   Now, sir, when you were examining Exhibit 537, did you

  14   have any indication as to where that particular item came

  15   from?

  16   A   Somewhere in a communication it was indicated that they

  17   were seized from a Mr. Odeh.

  18   Q   Well, sir, did you have any indication that they were

  19   seized from his person?

  20   A   No, I think it just said "were seized from."

  21   Q   So you don't know whether or not it came from his home or

  22   from his person or wherever?

  23   A   No.

  24   Q   Now, in an instance where you are taking -- or,

  25   withdrawn -- conducting these tests for fingerprints, you are


   1   doing so because you expect to be able to recover a print;

   2   isn't that correct?

   3   A   We never know.  We do it in the event there's prints there

   4   that we will develop them.

   5   Q   And you would expect that if a person was handling a

   6   particular item, you would get a print off of it; isn't that

   7   correct?

   8   A   No.

   9   Q   You wouldn't?  You don't expect that?

  10   A   Not every time, no.

  11   Q   Not every time, but in this instance the "Teach Yourself

  12   Swahili" book, you got 25 prints that matched Mohamed Odeh;

  13   isn't that correct?

  14   A   That's correct.

  15   Q   That would indicate to you, sir, that Mr. Odeh definitely

  16   handled that particular item?

  17   A   That's correct.

  18   Q   You got absolutely no prints from Mohamed Odeh off of

  19   Exhibit 537; is that correct?

  20   A   That's correct.

  21   Q   That's the Humsafar magazine?

  22   A   That's correct.

  23   Q   You did, however, get a print off of that magazine from

  24   someone named Fahad Mohamed Ali; is that correct?

  25   A   That's correct as well.


   1   Q   Now, sir, did you -- were you able to obtain any prints

   2   whatsoever from Exhibit 704, the "Crown Bird" exercise book?

   3   A   Yes.

   4   Q   So despite the fact that the test didn't work to an

   5   optimum level, you were able to obtain a print?

   6   A   A print, yes.

   7   Q   And that print did not match Mohamed Odeh; isn't that

   8   correct?

   9   A   That's correct.

  10            MR. WILFORD:  Nothing further.

  11            THE COURT:  Anything further?

  12            MR. KARAS:  One moment, your Honor.

  13            (Pause)

  14            MR. KARAS:  Nothing further, your Honor.  Thank you.

  15            THE COURT:  Thank you, Mr. Hollars.  You may step

  16   down.

  17            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, at this time we would

  18   read some transcripts from the wiretap, and we will call up

  19   Abigail Seda to read one of the voices and Mr. Francisco will

  20   read the other.  And we'll begin with Government Exhibit 207B.

  21   If we could put that up on the screen, 207B, a conversation

  22   recorded on December 16, 1996.

  23            (Government Exhibit 207B-T read)

  24            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, at this time we would

  25   play the conversation received in evidence as 214A and display


   1   the transcript 214A-T, and I believe there's a stipulation

   2   with counsel that for this transcript and any other

   3   transcript, when it refers to interruption by stamp machine or

   4   time stamp, that is something on the recording equipment, not

   5   something that was naturally happening in the conversation.

   6            THE COURT:  So stipulated.

   7            (Government Exhibit 214A, the audiotape, is played)

   8            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, this tape is obviously

   9   distorted and we should be able to at least fix it so it

  10   sounds much better than this, because it's obviously --

  11            THE COURT:  Is this the best version one has of it?

  12            MR. FITZGERALD:  We can adjust it.  We could start

  13   with --

  14            MR. SCHMIDT:  I would like to hear the voices.  It's

  15   an English conversation.  We could hear the voices if it's

  16   just an adjustment.

  17            MR. FITZGERALD:  Without making remarks in front of

  18   the jury, we can make adjustments, but I'm not going to

  19   comment on whether we can hear voices.

  20            THE COURT:  Why don't you just have it read and --

  21            MR. SCHMIDT:  I object to reading an English

  22   conversation that should be played.

  23            MR. FITZGERALD:  If we can adjust it, if there is an

  24   adjustment we can make on the speed, that would help.

  25            (Pause)


   1            MR. FITZGERALD:  We'll try it from the beginning at a

   2   different speed and tone.

   3            (Government Exhibit 214A, the audiotape, is played)

   4            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, I still have the same

   5   objection.

   6            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I think the jury can

   7   listen and decide for what it's worth.

   8            THE COURT:  Overruled.

   9            MR. SCHMIDT:  It is in English, your Honor.  I think

  10   the jury should be able to hear their voices.  When they are

  11   in Arabic, they won't understand it so that's why we read it.

  12            THE COURT:  If you have a better version you want to

  13   play, play.  Otherwise --

  14            Is this the best version the government has?

  15            MR. FITZGERALD:  Yes.  I'll ask Mr. Francisco, who

  16   knows.

  17            Yes.

  18            THE COURT:  Overruled.

  19            (Government Exhibit 214A, the audiotape, is played)

  20            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, we would now read

  21   Government Exhibit 215A-T, and the prior conversation had been

  22   recorded on February 26, 1997.  We will read a transcript

  23   215A-T from March 22, 1997, and Ms. Seda and Mr. Francisco

  24   will read the parts of the two participants.

  25            (Government Exhibit 215A-T read)


   1            MR. FITZGERALD:  The next conversation we would read

   2   would be Government Exhibit 216A-T, recorded on April 4th,

   3   1997, and the participants are Tawfik and Wadih El Hage, and

   4   Ms. Seda and Mr. Francisco will read the parts.

   5            (Government Exhibit 216A-T read)

   6            MR. FITZGERALD:  The next conversation we would read,

   7   your Honor, is Government Exhibit 217A-T, and the participants

   8   are again Wadih El Hage and Tawfik, a conversation recorded on

   9   April 11, 1997.

  10            (Government Exhibit 217A-T read)

  11            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, the last call in that

  12   series is a 13-page transcript.

  13            THE COURT:  All right, we'll break for lunch now and

  14   we'll resume at 2:15.

  15            (Jury not present)

  16            THE COURT:  We're adjourned until 2:00.  And also I

  17   would like to know whether there are any objections to the

  18   government's proposal in the April 3rd letter that was

  19   hand-delivered to me.

  20            We are adjourned until 2:00 for those who are

  21   interested in the matter raised in Mr. Ruhnke's letter.  2:15

  22   for the resumption of the trial.

  23            (Luncheon recess)




   1                         AFTERNOON SESSION

   2                            2:00 p.m.

   3            (Pages 3735 through 3749 sealed)

   4            (Recess)

   5            (In open court)

   6            THE COURT:  Whitworth is here?

   7            MR. FITZGERALD:  Yes, he is in the witness room.

   8            I think for scheduling reasons both witnesses have to

   9   finish today, so we will bypass the reading.  Mr. Brady will

  10   bring the witness out.

  11            MR. COHN:  Your Honor, the government informs us that

  12   they are seeking more time to give their chart of the various

  13   counts.  I am less than thrilled with that notion.  It informs

  14   our Rule 29 motion, so I thought I would alert you.

  15            THE COURT:  I haven't heard anything.

  16            MR. FITZGERALD:  Judge, I told him that I was going

  17   to ask your Honor -- I didn't think it would be raised in this

  18   format.

  19            MR. COHN:  I am sorry.  I didn't think I was

  20   snitching.

  21            MR. FITZGERALD:  We have been working through the

  22   night.  Can we file it Thursday, day after tomorrow?

  23            THE COURT:  How about by 5:00 tomorrow?

  24            MR. FITZGERALD:  I will be honest with you, Judge, we

  25   will be up all night -- we have been.


   1            THE COURT:  Noon on Thursday.

   2            MR. SCHMIDT:  There is a suggestion --

   3            THE COURT:  Now, listen.  You have never been in a

   4   case in which the court has required the government to prepare

   5   such a document.  You have never been in a case in which that

   6   has occurred.  You have never been in a case in which the

   7   government each week gives you a list of the witnesses it is

   8   going to call and what their substance will be.  So please

   9   don't push.

  10            MR. SCHMIDT:  I was just indicating a helpful

  11   suggestion.  I wasn't going to require them.  I just had a

  12   suggestion that may have assisted in the preparation of our

  13   documents in response to that.

  14            THE COURT:  What is the suggestion?

  15            MR. SCHMIDT:  If there is a problem between dealing

  16   with the conspiracy aspect of the case and the perjury aspects

  17   of the case, that they can divide it up and provide the

  18   information and be done with one aspect of the case and have

  19   more time as to the other aspect of the case.

  20            THE COURT:  Would that help?

  21            MR. FITZGERALD:  Actually, we thought about that.  It

  22   won't because we have to check the transcript cites.  If we

  23   get done with one earlier, we will serve the piece of that.

  24            MR. COHN:  Can it be 5:00 instead of noon?

  25            THE COURT:  I think this discussion is concluded.


   1            (Jury present)

   2            THE COURT:  Good afternoon.

   3            JURORS:  Good afternoon.

   4            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, the government would

   5   seek to resume the testimony of Special Agent Mark Whitworth.

   6    MARK WHITWORTH, recalled.

   7            THE COURT:  The court reminds you are still under

   8   oath.


  10   Q   Mr. Whitworth, we were talking yesterday about your review

  11   of certain items on August 20, 1998.  What I would like to do

  12   is approach you with a number of exhibits, first, what has

  13   been marked for identification as Government's Exhibit 535A,

  14   535B, and 535C, all for identification at this time.  Starting

  15   with the one directly in front of you, the largest item, which

  16   should be marked on the outside bag as Government's Exhibit

  17   535A.

  18   A   Yes.

  19   Q   Take a look at the bag and the contents thereof, and then

  20   remove the inner brown bag and the item inside.  First I will

  21   ask if you recognize the brown paper bag?

  22   A   Yes.

  23   Q   Can you tell us how you recognize it?

  24   A   I recognize it by my initials on the back.

  25   Q   Tell us what your process was on August 20, 1998, how the


   1   various items ended up in paper bags and who did the writing?

   2   A   For the most part I handled all the evidence on that day

   3   and took all the items out of the bag and decided what we were

   4   going to seize and what would go back in the bag.  I asked my

   5   assistant there, Agent McLaughlin, to label the bags for me

   6   and she would pass them to me once the label had been placed

   7   on it with the case number, the date, which item it was, and

   8   what we were going to request from the FBI lab on the bag.

   9   Then I would place the item in the bag and then initial it.

  10   Q   Do you know if Ms. McLaughlin also initialed the bag?

  11   A   Yes, she did.

  12   Q   Looking at 535 collectively, the pants and the brown paper

  13   bag, do you recognize those items?

  14   A   Yes, sir.

  15   Q   What are they?

  16   A   They are a pair of black or rust-colored blue jeans that

  17   were in the Nike bag.

  18   Q   Were they then packaged in the brown paper bag?

  19   A   Yes, sir, they were packaged in the brown paper bag.

  20   Q   And the instructions were placed in the outside of the

  21   brown paper bag?

  22   A   Yes.

  23            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, we offer Government's

  24   Exhibit 535A at this time.

  25            THE COURT:  Received.


   1            (Government's Exhibit 535A received in evidence)

   2            (Continued on next page)

























   1   Q   If you could now look at the item 535B.  Just make sure

   2   it's the right item.  I'm referring to the outside.

   3   A   Yes, sir.

   4   Q   And if you could examine the contents of that plastic

   5   envelope and particularly the brown paper bag.  Tell us

   6   whether or not you recognize that item.

   7   A   Yes, I recognize the writing "check for residue" up at the

   8   top of the bag.  Unfortunately, there is evidence tape that is

   9   covering a majority of the writing on that bag.

  10   Q   Have you reviewed the various brown paper bags prior to

  11   coming to court in the last several days?

  12   A   Yes, sir.

  13   Q   And do the ones that contain your initials usually contain

  14   the initials in a certain place?

  15   A   Usually around where the writing on the bag for the

  16   instructions was located.

  17   Q   And where is that in relation to the evidence tape on that

  18   bag?

  19   A   Unfortunately, in this case, it's under the evidence tape.

  20   Q   If you could look inside the bag and tell us if you

  21   recognize what is contained within the bag.

  22   A   Yes, sir.  It's a plaid cloth material that I think that

  23   we originally called a sheet, but it's -- I think it's

  24   actually a hoop-type garment of some sort.

  25   Q   And do you recall anything about that item when you saw


   1   it -- is that the item you saw on August 20th?

   2   A   Yes, sir.

   3   Q   And do you recall anything about that item that caught

   4   your attention at the time?

   5   A   Most of the items that caught my attention, they caught

   6   them either because of stains that were located on them, and

   7   on this one there are some stains located on the sheet.  I'll

   8   find that.

   9   Q   Let me hold it up and see if --

  10   A   There are also some rips.

  11            Along the hem or the bottom of this there are stains

  12   that are on this, and there's some burn holes that are present

  13   in the sheet, also, or the cloth.

  14   Q   I'll turn it over.

  15   A   And obviously it had been laundered, also, which would be

  16   something that I'm looking for.

  17   Q   What were the instructions placed on the brown paper bag

  18   for that item?

  19   A   Check for residue.

  20   Q   And is that item in that brown paper bag, does that appear

  21   to be the item that you analyzed or looked at on August 20th,

  22   1998?

  23   A   Yes, sir.

  24            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I would offer Government

  25   Exhibit 535B, as in boy.


   1            MR. HERMAN:  No objection.

   2            THE COURT:  Received.

   3            (Government Exhibit 535B received in evidence)


   5   Q   If you could next look at Government Exhibit 535C, and

   6   look at that item in the brown bag and if you would also tell

   7   us whether or not the evidence tape obscures the writing on

   8   that bag.

   9   A   Yes, sir, the evidence tape does obscure the bag, the

  10   writing on the bag, but you can still read "check for residue"

  11   under it and Lourdes, her initials are present, as are mine on

  12   it.

  13   Q   And at the time you did this procedure, was anyone keeping

  14   a log?

  15   A   Yes, sir, Lourdes was keeping our log for us.

  16   Q   And would the log indicate which items were being checked

  17   and being bagged?

  18   A   Yes, sir.

  19   Q   If you could look inside that brown bag within 535C and

  20   tell us if you recognize the item contained therein.

  21   A   Yes, sir, it's Shell Gasoline or a company logo shirt from

  22   Shell Gasoline.

  23   Q   And did you notice anything about that item at the time

  24   that you inspected it?

  25   A   It's -- obviously this item's never been laundered.  I


   1   mean, it's -- there's an odor to it, so it's fairly obvious

   2   that the item had never been laundered when I pulled it out of

   3   the bag.

   4   Q   What were the instructions placed on the brown paper bag

   5   with regard to 535C?

   6   A   Check for residue.

   7   Q   Is that an item, one of the items you removed from the

   8   Nike bag on August 20th, 1998?

   9   A   Yes, sir, it is.

  10            MR. FITZGERALD:  I would offer 535C.

  11            THE COURT:  Received.

  12            (Government Exhibit 535C received in evidence.)


  14   Q   Let me approach you with 535D, as in David, 535E, as in

  15   Edward, 535G as in George, and 535H, as in Harry.

  16            If you could remove the exhibit from the outer bag

  17   for 535D and look at the brown paper bag, determine whether

  18   the tape covers the initials and, if not, whether you can

  19   recognize your initials on the bag.

  20   A   No, sir, on this one the tape does not cover the initials.

  21   Lourdes and my initials are on it.  The item number, file

  22   number, the date and "check for residue" are on the bag.

  23   Q   If you could look inside the bag and tell us what is

  24   contained therein.

  25   A   It's a green overcoat or jacket.


   1   Q   Is that an item you sent to be checked for residue on that

   2   date?

   3   A   Yes, sir.

   4            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, we would offer 535D.

   5            MR. HERMAN:  No objection.

   6            THE COURT:  Received.

   7            (Government Exhibit 535D received in evidence.)


   9   Q   If you could now look at Government Exhibit 535E, which

  10   should be the items on your far left, which has been removed

  11   from the plastic bag, tell us if you recognize what that is.

  12   A   Yes, sir, it's a pair of glasses, eyeglasses.

  13   Q   And did you see the pair of eyeglasses on August 20th,

  14   1998?

  15   A   Yes, sir, I did.

  16   Q   What were your instructions with regard to the eyeglasses?

  17   A   No direct instructions as far as the eyeglasses on here,

  18   but they were checked for residue.

  19   Q   They were checked, sorry?  I didn't hear you.

  20   A   They would have been checked for residue.

  21   Q   And was that an item that you segregated out from the Nike

  22   bag on that day?

  23   A   Yes, sir.

  24            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I would offer Government

  25   Exhibit 535E.


   1            MR. HERMAN:  No objection, Judge.

   2            THE COURT:  Received.

   3            (Government Exhibit 535E received in evidence.)


   5   Q   Looking at the next exhibit directly in front of you,

   6   535G, if you could tell us what that is.

   7   A   Yes, sir, it's a towel.

   8   Q   What, if anything, did you notice about the condition of

   9   the towel at the time you saw it?

  10   A   Again, it has stains on the towel itself and it did not

  11   appear to have been laundered.

  12   Q   And was that another item you sent to be checked at the

  13   laboratory?

  14   A   Yes, sir.

  15            MR. FITZGERALD:  And I would offer Government Exhibit

  16   535G.

  17            MR. HERMAN:  No objection.

  18            THE COURT:  Received.

  19            (Government Exhibit 535G received in evidence.)


  21   Q   And the last item in front of you to your right for the

  22   moment is 535H, if you could take a look at that item and see

  23   if you recognize that item as well.

  24   A   Yes, sir.

  25   Q   What is that item?


   1   A   It's a, what we described as an in-flight magazine from

   2   Kenyan Airways.

   3   Q   What, if anything, did you notice about the condition of

   4   the item at the time that you saw it on August 20th, 1998?

   5   A   Both on the cover on the front and the cover on the back

   6   there is indented writing where someone used this as a counter

   7   top or something to put something to write on on top of it, a

   8   sheet of paper.

   9   Q   And what, if any, instructions were placed on the brown

  10   paper bag with regard to that item?

  11   A   I just noted in the disposition of the item that there was

  12   indented writing on this item so that it would be noted on the

  13   log.

  14   Q   And does that brown paper bag reflect your initials?

  15   A   Yes, sir, it does.

  16            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I would offer Government

  17   Exhibit 535H.

  18            MR. WILFORD:  No objection.

  19            THE COURT:  Received.

  20            (Government Exhibit 535H received in evidence.)


  22   Q   I'll now approach you with an item marked as Government

  23   Exhibit 529 for identification.  If I could ask you to focus

  24   for the moment just on the bag itself and not the contents.

  25            Do you recognize that bag?


   1   A   Yes, sir.  This was the bag that we removed the items

   2   from.

   3   Q   And yesterday you testified about taking vacuuming from

   4   residue from with inside the bag?

   5   A   Yes, sir.

   6   Q   Is that the same bag you were talking about?

   7   A   Yes, sir.

   8   Q   Would you look at the condition of the bag from the inside

   9   and see if it purports with your recollection of how the bag

  10   looked when you saw it?

  11   A   Yes, sir.  I remember in these areas here that the

  12   internal coating on the bag was flaking away and that is

  13   actually reflected in the vacuumings.  You can see these

  14   pieces where they are trapped in the vacuumings.

  15   Q   And what was the bottom of the bag that you looked at on

  16   August 20th, 1998, what kind of lining was the bottom of the

  17   bag?

  18   A   It has a piece of cardboard or like items with a vinyl

  19   covering over the top of it.

  20            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, at this time I would

  21   offer Government Exhibit 529, which is the bag itself.

  22            May I have one moment with counsel.

  23            (Pause)

  24            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, we'll offer Government

  25   Exhibit 529, the bag, and also its contents, but exhibit


   1   stickers have been placed on individual contents and, by

   2   agreement of counsel, we'll identify what numbers are attached

   3   to that.

   4            THE COURT:  Very well, 529, received.

   5            (Government Exhibit 529 received in evidence.)


   7   Q   Agent Whitworth, other than the items you selected out to

   8   send to the lab, what did you do with the balance of the items

   9   that you did not select to send to the lab for particular

  10   analysis?

  11   A   All of the items were returned back to the evidence

  12   custodian there at the criminal investigative division.

  13   Q   Backing up, what did you do when the items were out of the

  14   bag and you determined certain items you did not select to

  15   send to the laboratory?

  16   A   We placed them back in the bag.  I'm sorry.

  17   Q   Within Government Exhibit 529, I'll just try to describe

  18   things generically:  One pair of male briefs marked 532B,

  19   blue; one pair of red briefs with white stars, 532C; I'll hold

  20   up this item, black in color, and I'll read in 531I, it's

  21   draw-string cotton pants, black in color; multicolored towel,

  22   which has been marked as 531D; another pair of boxer-type

  23   briefs, 532A, blue and white striped; 531H I would describe as

  24   purple, long shirt; 531G, pair of socks, orange, yellow; 530B,

  25   a shampoo bottle, brand Revco Shampoo Plus with a hole in the


   1   bottom of the bottle; a belt marked 531B; 531A is a shirt,

   2   Nike brand, with a logo; 531C, a maroon shirt with the word

   3   "remember" written as part of the pattern; 531F, a head

   4   covering, black; and 531E, as in Edward, a shawl, scarf, item.

   5            Your Honor, at this time I would offer three other

   6   items, Government Exhibit 530A, a Swahili dictionary,

   7   Government Exhibit 537, a Humsafar magazine, Government

   8   Exhibit 536, Swahili Complete Course for Beginners, and

   9   Government Exhibit 527, a ticket coupon.

  10            THE COURT:  Are you offering them?

  11            MR. FITZGERALD:  Yes.

  12            MR. HERMAN:  No objection.

  13            THE COURT:  All of those?

  14            MR. FITZGERALD:  Yes, Judge.

  15            THE COURT:  Including their contents?

  16            MR. FITZGERALD:  I'm sorry.  Yes.  Yes.

  17            THE COURT:  532, 532C, 531I, 531B, 532A --

  18            MR. FITZGERALD:  Oh, yes.

  19            THE COURT:  531D, 531G, 530A, 530B, 531A, 531C, 531F,

  20   531E, 530A, 537, 536, 527, all received.

  21            (Government Exhibits 527, 529, 530A, 530B, 531A-I,

  22   532A-C, 536 and 537 received in evidence.)

  23            MR. FITZGERALD:  Thank you, Judge.  I have nothing

  24   further.

  25            THE COURT:  Mr. Herman, on behalf of defendant Odeh.


   1            MR. HERMAN:  Thank you, Judge.


   3   BY MR. HERMAN:

   4   Q   Good afternoon, Agent Whitworth.

   5   A   Good afternoon, sir.

   6   Q   Agent Whitworth, you told us yesterday that when you were

   7   detailed to examine these items, you were doing so to recover

   8   the items, is that correct, and not test them?

   9   A   Correct.

  10   Q   And because at that point you were an expert in training,

  11   is that accurate to say?

  12   A   Yes, sir.

  13   Q   And subsequently you have -- you are now an explosive

  14   devices examiner; is that correct?

  15   A   Yes, sir.

  16   Q   But back in August of 1998, your sole job was to retrieve

  17   evidence; is that right?

  18   A   Yes, sir.

  19   Q   Were you part of an evidence retrieval team, in effect?

  20   A   I was dispatched by the explosives unit out of the lab as

  21   just an extra body, a person with a little bit more knowledge

  22   than the normal ERT or people off the street about bombing

  23   crime scenes.

  24   Q   And you had certainly been trained in how to recover

  25   evidence and how to package evidence, is that fair to say?


   1   A   Yes, sir.

   2   Q   On August 20th, 1998 you received these items that you

   3   have indicated here today, is that accurate?

   4   A   Yes, sir.

   5   Q   Had you ever seen them before?

   6   A   No, sir.

   7   Q   Did you have any knowledge, either firsthand or another

   8   way, of where these items had been?

   9   A   No, sir, not prior to me touching them, no, sir.

  10   Q   When you first saw them, where were they?

  11   A   They were in the bag on a desk or table at CID

  12   headquarters.

  13   Q   And this is the bag that you have identified as Government

  14   Exhibit 529?

  15   A   Yes, sir, the Nike bag.

  16   Q   I'm sorry?

  17   A   The Nike bag?

  18   Q   Nike bag.  Did someone bring them to you?

  19   A   If I remember correctly, they were -- the bag was already

  20   in the room at the time we got there.

  21   Q   Okay.  So you don't have firsthand knowledge about how the

  22   bag got in the room, is that fair to say?

  23   A   No, sir.

  24   Q   And was there a list of items which accompanied the bag?

  25   A   Not that I remember seeing, no, sir.


   1   Q   Did you do your own list of items in the bag?

   2   A   Yes, sir, of what we recovered from the bag, not of the

   3   total contents of the bag.

   4   Q   So what you made a list of were items that you took out of

   5   the bag and packaged separately; is that right?

   6   A   Yes, sir.

   7   Q   And the rest of the items you simply put back into the

   8   bag; is that correct?

   9   A   Yes, sir.

  10   Q   When you have identified items here today from the bag,

  11   was that based on your memory of what was in the bag?

  12   A   Yes, sir.

  13   Q   There came a time that you took some photographs, or an

  14   individual working with you took photographs of the bag and

  15   some of the contents?

  16   A   Yes, sir, Lourdes McLoughlin took photographs.

  17   Q   If you would be good enough to look at some photographs

  18   which we've marked for identification.

  19            Let me ask you this.  Look at these photos.

  20   A   Yes, sir.

  21   Q   I don't know whether you took them or not, but look at the

  22   photos and see whether you can identify what's in the

  23   photographs, and just make them two piles as to ones you can

  24   and the ones you can't.

  25   A   Okay.


   1   Q   Could you do that for me?

   2   A   Yes, sir.

   3   Q   Thank you.

   4   A   Are you looking for what items I removed from the bag or

   5   are you looking for in general what items I recognize as being

   6   in the bag?

   7   Q   The latter.

   8            (Pause)

   9            MR. HERMAN:  May I approach, your Honor?

  10            THE COURT:  Yes.

  11   Q   Agent, I've got a large pile on one hand and just a single

  12   photograph in my left hand.  Should I assume that the single

  13   photograph is an item that you do not recognize?

  14   A   Yes, sir.

  15   Q   May I assume that the other items that you have looked at

  16   here this afternoon are items that you -- photographs of items

  17   that you do recognize as being associated with the bag that

  18   day?

  19   A   Yes, sir.

  20            MR. HERMAN:  For the record, the items identified are

  21   Odeh BB, CC, DD, EE, FF, GG, HH, II, JJ, KK, LL, MM, NN, OO,

  22   PP, QQ, UU and TT, and I would move them into evidence, if

  23   there is no objection.

  24            MR. FITZGERALD:  No objection, Judge.

  25            THE COURT:  Received.


   1            (Defendant's Exhibits Odeh BB, CC, DD, EE, FF, GG,

   2   HH, II, JJ, KK, LL, MM, NN, OO, PP, QQ, UU and TT received in

   3   evidence.)

   4   BY MR. HERMAN:

   5   Q   Now, Agent, you told us that one of the items that you

   6   looked at on August 20 was a green jacket; is that right?

   7   A   Yes, sir.

   8   Q   Was that green jacket inside the bag or was it -- or not?

   9   A   It was inside the bag, yes, sir, the best of my knowledge.

  10   Q   I'm sorry?

  11   A   To the best of my knowledge, yes, sir.

  12   Q   So all of the items that you examined that date came out

  13   of the bag; is that right?

  14   A   Yes, sir, I believe so.

  15   Q   Well, is there any doubt in your mind?

  16   A   No, sir.

  17   Q   Did you find a watch in the bag?

  18   A   Yes, sir, I believe there is a watch in the bag.

  19   Q   Was that something you saw today or not?

  20   A   No, I did not remember seeing that today.

  21   Q   But you remembered there was a watch in the bag?

  22   A   I remember a watch from the bag.

  23   Q   Okay.  Was there money in the bag, foreign currency?

  24   A   Not that I can remember off the top of my head, no, sir.

  25   Q   Okay.  I would like to show you or show the jury as well,


   1   your Honor, Odeh DD in evidence on the Elmo, please.

   2            Agent, would that be the condition of the bag before

   3   you began to take items out of it?

   4   A   No, sir.

   5   Q   Is that the condition of the bag after you put items back

   6   into it?

   7   A   Yes, sir.

   8   Q   That's the bag after you selected out certain items and

   9   put the rest of the items back in the bag; is that right?

  10   A   Yes, sir, to the --

  11   Q   Okay.  This is Odeh EE, Agent.  Can you tell us what's in

  12   that, what that photograph depicts?

  13   A   The items that were in the bag after I processed some of

  14   the stuff out of the bag.

  15   Q   What surface are the items on there?

  16   A   They're on a piece of butcher paper.

  17   Q   I'm sorry?

  18   A   They're on what we call butcher paper.  These are actually

  19   taken in the FBI lab.  These are not my photos.

  20   Q   Okay.  Do you recognize what's on the back there?

  21   A   Yes, sir, that's called butcher paper.

  22   Q   Butcher paper.

  23            Were you using a similar type of paper or something

  24   else to cover the surface when you were examining these items?

  25   A   No, sir.


   1   Q   You were examining the items in the CID headquarters?

   2   A   Yes, sir.

   3   Q   In a room that you had never been in before; is that

   4   right?

   5   A   Yes, sir.

   6   Q   And you were obviously wearing gloves, though; is that

   7   correct?

   8   A   Yes, sir.

   9   Q   And you were wearing gloves so that there wouldn't be any

  10   contamination; is that correct?

  11   A   Yes, sir, from myself.

  12   Q   Obviously that was a concern of yours, that the items not

  13   be contaminated by anything coming from you; is that right?

  14   A   Yes, sir.

  15   Q   When you examined them, did you take them one at a time

  16   out of the bag?

  17   A   To the best of my recollection, yes, sir.

  18   Q   And you put them down on the surface?

  19   A   Yes, sir.

  20   Q   But to the best of your recollection, the surface was not

  21   protected in any fashion; is that correct?

  22   A   No, sir.

  23   Q   Did you visit the bomb site when you were in Kenya?

  24   A   Yes, sir, I spent the majority of my time there.

  25   Q   When did you get to Kenya for this investigation?


   1   A   It was probably the Monday after the event.  I'm not sure

   2   of the exact date.

   3   Q   If I could suggest the event took place on August 7th,

   4   1998, that might have been, then, August 10th, 1998?

   5   A   Yes, sir.

   6   Q   And you stayed at least another ten days in the Nairobi

   7   area, is that fair to say?

   8   A   Yes, sir.

   9   Q   And most of the time, as you have told us, you were

  10   working at the bomb site?

  11   A   Correct.

  12   Q   And were you gathering items of evidence at the bomb site?

  13   A   Yes, sir.

  14   Q   And placing those items into some type of secure facility?

  15   A   Yes, sir.

  16   Q   You have told us that you, with regard to the bag, that

  17   you vacuumed it, is that accurate?

  18   A   Yes, sir.

  19   Q   Was that just the bag that you vacuumed?

  20   A   I also vacuumed my hands with my gloves on.

  21   Q   I'm sorry?

  22   A   I also vacuumed my hands with the gloves on.

  23   Q   You vacuumed your own hands?

  24   A   Yes, sir.

  25   Q   With the gloves on, and that's -- what was the reason you


   1   did that?

   2   A   So that I could make sure that I wasn't contaminated.

   3   Q   Were you also wearing one of those Tyvek suits at the

   4   time?

   5   A   Yes, sir.

   6   Q   And at the time that you were taking the items out of the

   7   bag; is that right?

   8   A   Yes, sir.

   9   Q   Again, that's so there wouldn't be any contamination from

  10   something on your clothing to the items that you were

  11   removing, is that fair to say?

  12   A   Yes, sir.

  13   Q   When you vacuumed, you just vacuumed generally the

  14   interior of the bag, is that how it worked?

  15   A   Yes, sir.

  16   Q   And then you saved the residue for a lab technician or a

  17   chemist who analyzed it, is that what your intention was?

  18   A   That's correct, sir.

  19   Q   When you were gathering evidence in this case, were you

  20   aware of whether the Kenyan police officials were also

  21   involved in the investigation?

  22   A   Yes, sir, I was aware of that.

  23   Q   Did you see members of the Kenyan police at the bomb site

  24   scene?

  25   A   I know that there were some people that were helping us


   1   with the crime scene from the bomb squad, the Kenyan police

   2   bomb squad and some of the lab people also came out to help

   3   with the swabbing, but as far as investigative types, I was

   4   kind of separate from them.

   5   Q   But you saw some individuals who had the same role as you

   6   did who were your counterparts in the Kenyan police department

   7   or the CID?

   8   A   Yes, sir.

   9   Q   Do you know whether they were also gathering items of

  10   evidence?  This would be the Kenyans.

  11   A   At the crime scene, yes, sir.  I'm aware of that.

  12   Q   They were gathering evidence?

  13   A   At the crime scene, yes.

  14   Q   At the crime scene.  Do you know where they were keeping

  15   the evidence that they gathered?

  16   A   They were turning it over to us.  We were working

  17   hand-in-hand at the crime scene.

  18   Q   So, as far as you knew, was the United States the only

  19   government that was actually the repository for evidence

  20   collected?

  21   A   From the crime scene, yes, sir.

  22   Q   And what about from other scenes possibly associated with

  23   the case, do you know what took place with regard to those

  24   sites?

  25   A   No, sir.  I only was involved in this search and one


   1   other.

   2   Q   Were you involved with the search, for instance, at 43

   3   Runda Estates?

   4   A   No, sir.

   5   Q   And do you know anything about that search?

   6   A   No, sir.

   7   Q   When you identified items that day on August 20th, did you

   8   give them designations, such as a K number or a Q number?

   9   A   No, sir, that's not done on the field.  That's a

  10   laboratory function.

  11   Q   Okay.  So what you did was put these items that you

  12   selected in separate bags and initialed the bags?

  13   A   Yes, sir, and put an item number for us at that location.

  14   Q   And then the plan was to send these items back to the

  15   United States for further testing; is that right?

  16   A   Correct.

  17   Q   So at that point, on August 20th, after you had looked at

  18   these items and separated some of them out and photographed

  19   them, your responsibility for these items ended; is that

  20   correct?

  21   A   Yes, sir.

  22            MR. HERMAN:  May I have a moment, Judge?

  23            (Pause)

  24   BY MR. HERMAN:

  25   Q   Agent, when you packaged some of these items, you did so


   1   in a way to preserve their integrity, is that fair to say?

   2   A   Yes, sir.

   3   Q   And you also marked them, I gather, in a way which could

   4   identify where they had come from; is that right?

   5   A   Yes, sir.

   6   Q   When you looked at these items, did it appear that anyone

   7   else had ever marked them with any kind of identifying symbol

   8   or initials or anything to that effect?

   9   A   Not at that point, no, sir.

  10            MR. HERMAN:  Thank you.  That's all I have.

  11            MR. FITZGERALD:  Briefly, Judge.

  12            THE COURT:  Yes.



  15   Q   Agent Whitworth, where was it that the items of evidence

  16   recovered at the crime scene were being stored?

  17   A   They were being stored at the crime scene.

  18   Q   The place where you examined the Nike bag, how far was

  19   that from the crime scene, if you know?

  20   A   It's a 15 or so minute drive from there, if I remember

  21   correctly.  I only went to CID on two occasions that I

  22   remember, so --

  23   Q   Let me approach you again with Government Exhibit 529 and

  24   ask you to keep your gloves on.

  25   A   Okay.


   1   Q   Ask you to take a look through there and see if you find a

   2   watch.

   3   A   Yes, sir.

   4   Q   What kind -- is there a sticker on the back?

   5   A   Yes, sir.

   6   Q   Can you just read the number into the record?

   7   A   528, Exhibit 528.

   8   Q   528?

   9   A   Yes, sir.

  10            MR. FITZGERALD:  We would offer Government Exhibit

  11   528, your Honor.

  12            MR. HERMAN:  No objection.

  13            THE COURT:  Received.

  14            (Government Exhibit 528 received in evidence.)


  16   Q   If you could just tell us the brand name of the watch, if

  17   it's listed on there?

  18   A   Yes, sir, it's a Casio watch.

  19   Q   Does it appear to be working or not working at this time?

  20   A   Yes, sir, it's currently working.

  21   Q   Can you tell us what time appears on the watch?

  22   A   12:48, 20 something seconds.

  23            MR. FITZGERALD:  Thank you.  Nothing further.

  24            MR. HERMAN:  Just a few.



   1   BY MR. HERMAN:

   2   Q   The watch was in the bag; is that right?

   3   A   Yes, sir.

   4   Q   Just missed it the first time you went?

   5   A   Yes, sir.

   6   Q   You didn't miss the green jacket, though, right?  You

   7   found the green jacket, right?

   8   A   Yes.

   9   Q   And as you went through the bag, there's a pair of pants

  10   in the bag today, right, those string pants?

  11   A   Yes, sir.

  12   Q   All right.  And there was another pair of pants that you

  13   took out and segregated that day and sent to the lab; is that

  14   right?

  15   A   Yes, sir.

  16   Q   So that would have been two pairs of pants in that bag; is

  17   that right?

  18   A   Correct.

  19   Q   And Mr. Fitzgerald asked you how far you were away at CID

  20   from the bomb site, and you said, what, about 15 minutes?

  21   A   Yes, sir, if I can remember correctly.

  22   Q   Okay.  But you were nonetheless concerned -- and I say

  23   this because you were wearing gloves and a Tyvek outfit --

  24   that there should not be any contamination from you to the

  25   items in the bag, is that fair to say?


   1   A   Yes, sir.

   2            MR. HERMAN:  Thank you.

   3            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, if I could just have the

   4   record reflect that it is roughly 3:35 Eastern time, just to

   5   tie to it that last question.

   6            Thank you.  Nothing further.

   7            THE COURT:  Thank you, Agent.  You may step down.

   8            (Witness excused)

   9            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, the government recalls Kelly

  10   Mount.

  11    KELLY MOUNT, Recalled.

  12            THE COURT:  Agent Mount, the Court reminds you you

  13   are still under oath.

  14            THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.


  16   BY MR. KARAS:

  17   Q   Good afternoon.

  18   A   Good afternoon.

  19   Q   If I could just remind you to speak loudly and clearly

  20   into the microphone.

  21   A   Sure.

  22   Q   Thanks.

  23            Can you remind us what it is that you do for a

  24   living?

  25   A   I am a forensic chemist with the FBI laboratory.


   1   Q   Did there come a time that you were asked to analyze items

   2   represented to you as being from a Nike bag belonging to

   3   Mohamed Sadeek Odeh?

   4   A   Yes.

   5   Q   And can you tell us whether or not you followed the

   6   protocol you described earlier for analysis for chemical

   7   residue?

   8   A   Yes, certainly.

   9            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, may I approach the witness?

  10            THE COURT:  Yes.

  11   Q   Ms. Mount, while and after you conducted your analysis,

  12   did you keep notes of the results of your examination of the

  13   items?

  14   A   I did.

  15   Q   Did you prepare any reports?

  16   A   I did, yes.

  17   Q   I have placed before you what has been marked for

  18   identification as Government Exhibit 538.  Can you tell us

  19   what that is?

  20   A   This is a summary of the results from the analysis

  21   conducted on these items.

  22   Q   Have you compared the information contained in that

  23   summary with your notes and the report that you prepared

  24   during -- from your examination of these items?

  25   A   I have.


   1   Q   Is the summary analysis accurate?

   2   A   Yes, it is.

   3            MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, at this time we offer Exhibit

   4   538.

   5            MR. WILFORD:  Without objection.

   6            THE COURT:  Received.

   7            (Government Exhibit 538 received in evidence.)

   8            MR. KARAS:  If we could display 538.

   9   Q   Looking at the first six items, if you could just tell us

  10   generally what those were and, for the record, how it was that

  11   they tested.

  12   A   Those were either control samples or vacuuming samples

  13   taken of the Nike bag, and no explosive residues were found on

  14   those items.

  15   Q   And then if we could focus on the next four items, the

  16   paper fragments, the orange towel, the in-flight magazine and

  17   the green jacket, and for the record, was there any residue

  18   found on any of those items?

  19   A   No, no residue was found on those either.

  20   Q   And the next three items, the pants and the cloth item and

  21   the red t-shirt -- that's okay, we don't need to focus on it.

  22            If you could just tell us, Ms. Mount, for the record

  23   which each of those items tested positive for, if anything.

  24   A   Those three items that you mentioned tested positive for

  25   pentaerythritol tetranitrate, PETN, and trinitrotoluene, TNT.


   1   Q   And finally, the last item, the pair of eyeglasses, did it

   2   test positive?

   3   A   No, it was negative for explosives.

   4            MR. KARAS:  Thank you.  I have no further questions.


   6   BY MR. WILFORD:

   7   Q   Good afternoon, Ms. Mount.  How are you doing today?

   8   A   Doing fine, thank you.

   9   Q   That's great.

  10            Now, Agent Mount, did you take photographs of various

  11   items while you were conducting your tests, your various

  12   forensic tests?

  13   A   Not that I remember.

  14   Q   Were you present when photographs were taken?

  15   A   No, not that I remember.

  16   Q   Did you examine any photographs ever in relation to the

  17   items that you tested?

  18   A   No.

  19   Q   I want to show you some photographs.

  20   A   Okay.

  21   Q   Some of which are in evidence and some that are not.

  22            This is the stack that's in evidence.  I won't repeat

  23   all the letters right now.  And this is the stack that's not.

  24   Tell me, please, if you recognize those items.

  25   A   I'd have to say some of these look familiar, but I don't


   1   specifically remember each item individually.

   2   Q   Look at the ones that are not in evidence and tell me if

   3   you recognize them.

   4   A   Oh, okay.

   5            Again, I think I remember some of these, but I could

   6   not definitely tell you that I remember everything

   7   specifically.

   8   Q   Thank you.

   9            Now, when you were conducting your examinations, you

  10   in fact tested for the presence of trace amounts of TNT, PETN,

  11   and other explosives; is that correct?

  12   A   That's correct, yes.

  13   Q   When you were conducting your tests, Agent Mount, did you

  14   attempt to calibrate your machines so that you would be able

  15   to tell the amounts?

  16   A   No.  Again, we do calibrate the instruments, certainly.

  17   We conduct performance checks to make sure that they are

  18   working properly, but we do not do quantitative analysis for

  19   explosive residue work.  So, no, there were no calibrations

  20   that would tell us levels of explosives found.

  21   Q   But it is possible -- I'm sorry.  Were you finished with

  22   your answer?

  23   A   Yes.

  24   Q   It is in fact possible for you to do that, though?

  25   A   It would be possible with some of the instruments, yes.


   1   Q   You could have taken it and set a control, right, and then

   2   use that as a measurement against the other items that you

   3   were testing; isn't that correct?

   4   A   I could have made some quantitative measurements.

   5   However, I think there are limitations with that, again, not

   6   knowing the starting materials, how much you have, what you

   7   are dealing with.

   8   Q   Did you in fact test all of the items at the same time?

   9   A   I believe that I did.  It was all one laboratory number,

  10   so, yes.

  11   Q   So you tested, for example, you tested K43 through K52 at

  12   the same time?

  13   A   All within the same day probably, sure.

  14   Q   And you also conducted a test on the residue --

  15   withdrawn -- on the vacuuming sample that was taken and

  16   transported to the lab; is that correct?

  17   A   Yes.

  18   Q   That was conducted on the same day?

  19   A   If we're talking about the vacuum samples, my K45 and K46,

  20   the Government Exhibits 533B and 533C, vacuum samples, yes.

  21   Q   Yes.

  22   A   Yes.

  23   Q   And you conducted a test of some pieces of paper; isn't

  24   that correct?

  25   A   That's correct.


   1   Q   Where did those pieces of paper originally come from with

   2   respect to the items in the bag?

   3   A   I don't know.

   4   Q   Well, they --

   5   A   They were in a vial, if I remember correctly.

   6   Q   Isn't it a fact that they came out of the pockets of those

   7   black jeans?

   8   A   I'm not sure.  As received, they were in a separate vial.

   9   Q   Did you recover any explosive residue from the pieces of

  10   paper that were examined?

  11   A   No, I did not.

  12   Q   And you didn't tear those pieces of paper up, right?

  13   A   No, I did not.

  14   Q   They were in that condition when you received them?

  15   A   That's correct, yes.

  16   Q   Do you know whether or not those pieces of paper had been

  17   vacuumed in Nairobi?

  18   A   I'm not sure.

  19   Q   Agent Mount, you did in fact take -- withdrawn -- conduct

  20   forensic examination of swabbings that were taken from the

  21   walls of the embassy in Nairobi; is that correct?

  22   A   That is correct, yes.

  23   Q   And some of these swabbings did in fact reveal TNT?

  24   A   That is correct.

  25   Q   When you tested for it, there was still TNT?


   1   A   Yes.

   2   Q   Would it be fair to say, based on that, that not all of

   3   the TNT was dissipated at the time of the explosion?

   4   A   Some survived the blast, yes.

   5   Q   And would it be fair to say that if people touched the

   6   walls or the stones or the debris from the embassy and they

   7   didn't have on gloves or their clothing touched it, there's a

   8   high likelihood that they would come in contact with some of

   9   that TNT material or PENT material or whatever else you found

  10   there?

  11   A   It's possible they could have come into contact with it to

  12   a degree.

  13   Q   I'm sorry?

  14   A   It is possible that they could have come in contact with

  15   it.

  16   Q   It would be a probability that they would come in contact

  17   with it?

  18   A   I don't know that I would say a probability.

  19   Q   You don't want to go that far?

  20   A   I don't know.  I couldn't hazard a guess.

  21   Q   Would the probability be that there would be an exchange,

  22   if someone bumped into it or touched that particular piece of

  23   concrete where there was TNT remaining with their clothing,

  24   that their clothing would probably take some of that TNT?

  25   A   It's possible that that could happen.


   1   Q   And if somebody touched it with their hands, the same

   2   thing would happen?

   3   A   Possible.

   4   Q   And we're talking, once again, about microscopic --

   5   A   Residue.

   6   Q   -- articles?

   7   A   Excuse me?

   8            Yes.

   9   Q   Something that is not visible to the naked eye?

  10   A   That's true.

  11   Q   It's not like I would bump and say, oh, I got some TNT on

  12   me; you wouldn't know it, right?

  13   A   True.

  14   Q   Now, you conducted a test where you used acetone?

  15   A   Yes.

  16   Q   Could you explain to the jury what that was?

  17   A   Sure.  That, as I mentioned, I think, last time I

  18   testified, that's a standard part of our protocol, that we

  19   extract samples with acetone, which is like a fingernail

  20   polish remover.  Explosives, high explosives, the organic

  21   explosives are very soluble in acetone, so that's the means by

  22   which we extract them to get them into solution for analysis.

  23   Q   Agent Mount, you performed a variety of tests on items

  24   K53, 54 and 55; is that correct?

  25   A   That's correct.


   1   Q   And did your findings change as you conducted each test?

   2   A   No, I wouldn't say that they changed, no.

   3   Q   What would you say?  Did you get more particular

   4   information as you conducted each test?

   5   A   Oh, yes, certainly.  Certainly.  We go from a general

   6   screening process to confirmatory tests with the last set of

   7   instruments that we used.

   8   Q   When you conducted your tests, did you first conduct the

   9   test on 53, 54 and 55, that is, K53, K54 and K55; are those

  10   the first items that you tested?

  11   A   I don't remember.  I try to follow things normally just in

  12   sequential numerical order.  I don't remember specifically

  13   that --

  14   Q   When you received what is Government Exhibit 529, this

  15   Nike bag, were there items inside of the bag?

  16            Can you see it from there?

  17   A   I can see the bag.

  18            I believe that I received the actual bag in a later

  19   laboratory submission.

  20   Q   That was tested on a different day; isn't that correct?

  21   A   I believe so, yes.

  22   Q   And the items that were contained, were there any items in

  23   the bag at that time?

  24   A   To be honest with you, I don't remember specifically.  I

  25   would have to review my notes from that specific lab number to


   1   remember that.

   2   Q   You don't have them with you?

   3   A   No, I sure don't.  Sorry.

   4   Q   When you tested the residue that was vacuumed, what tests

   5   did you perform on it?

   6   A   The vacuum filter samples that I received?

   7   Q   Yes.

   8   A   I extracted those with acetone.

   9   Q   What were the results of those?

  10   A   Those were negative.  No explosive residues were found.

  11   Q   Did you know where in fact those samples were taken from?

  12   A   I don't know that I knew specifically.  I think there may

  13   have been some markings on the bag that they were vacuumings

  14   from something.  I don't remember specifically, so --

  15            MR. WILFORD:  May I approach the witness, your Honor?

  16            THE COURT:  Yes.

  17   Q   I'm going to show you items 535A, 535B and 535C.

  18            Right now you're looking at 535A; is that correct?

  19   A   Yes, I am.

  20   Q   Okay.  Is there anything on that particular packaging that

  21   would indicate to you whether or not the vacuuming sample that

  22   you analyzed with acetone came from that particular --

  23   A   No.  On this particular bag, no.

  24   Q   Would you look at 535B.

  25   A   It looks like the writing is covered in evidence tape


   1   here, so --

   2   Q   So there's no way for you to tell about 535B?

   3   A   Not right now, no, I can't.

   4   Q   Okay.  Would you look at 535C, please.

   5   A   Okay.  There's nothing in particular on here, no.

   6   Q   Agent Mount, would it be fair to say that in conducting

   7   your particular branch of forensic examination, it's quite

   8   different from, say, a serologist and someone who does DNA

   9   typing because in those particular fields you can determine

  10   the source, right?  If it's somebody's blood type, you can

  11   type it and go right back to the source because the source

  12   will match; is that correct?  Is that a fair statement?

  13   A   Best of my understanding, yes.

  14   Q   And with DNA, we can say this particular DNA came from

  15   this particular person; isn't that correct?

  16   A   Right.

  17   Q   However, in the type of examination that you conducted

  18   with respect to determining whether or not there were trace

  19   evidence of explosives on clothing, there's no way to

  20   determine the source, is there?

  21   A   No.  No.

  22   Q   And part of that is due to the fact that we're talking

  23   about microscopic particles that are easily transferred; isn't

  24   that correct?

  25   A   That's true.  The residue --


   1            MR. WILFORD:  Nothing further.

   2            THE COURT:  Anything further?

   3            MR. KARAS:  Briefly, your Honor.


   5   BY MR. KARAS:

   6   Q   Now, Ms. Mount, with respect to the quantity of residue,

   7   when you are analyzing, for example, a shirt, how is it you go

   8   about to create the sample that you test?

   9   A   Typically for clothing I will take my own vacuuming sample

  10   and collect that onto a filter and extract the filter with

  11   acetone.

  12   Q   And when you do the vacuuming sample, is it possible that

  13   in creating the sample you leave behind residue on the shirt

  14   that you were analyzing?

  15   A   That's possible, yes, certainly.

  16   Q   So that the sample may have one measure of residue, but

  17   that doesn't tell you what quantity of residue there is on the

  18   shirt; is that right?

  19   A   That's true, yes.

  20   Q   Now, with respect to sourcing the TNT and comparing your

  21   field to serology, when you find TNT residue, you don't know

  22   what bomb that came from, do you?

  23   A   No.

  24   Q   But you know it comes from TNT?

  25   A   Correct.


   1            MR. KARAS:  No further questions.


   3   BY MR. WILFORD:

   4   Q   Agent Mount, you don't even know if it came from a bomb;

   5   is that correct?  You just know there's some TNT there?

   6   A   That is correct, yes.

   7   Q   You don't know whether it was actually explosive, used in

   8   an explosive, or simply ground up by somebody preparing a

   9   bomb; is that correct?

  10   A   That is correct.

  11   Q   And if somebody was grinding TNT up to make a bomb and

  12   they handle it with their hands, and they took their hands and

  13   wiped it on their shirt, that particular shirt would be loaded

  14   with TNT residue; isn't that correct?

  15   A   Quite possibly.

  16            MR. WILFORD:  Thank you.  Nothing further.

  17            THE COURT:  Thank you.  You may step down.

  18            (Witness excused)

  19            THE COURT:  What is the next order of business?

  20            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, we're going to read that

  21   final transcript, which I believe was Government Exhibit

  22   220B-T.

  23            THE COURT:  How long will that be?

  24            MR. FITZGERALD:  That's 13 pages, so ten minutes.

  25            THE COURT:  Ten minutes.  And is that it for the day?


   1            MR. FITZGERALD:  No, Judge, there's some other items.

   2            THE COURT:  All right.  We'll take a brief recess.

   3            (Recess)

   4            (Continued on next page)























   1            THE COURT:  The government may proceed.

   2            MR. FITZGERALD:  Yes, Judge.  First, for the record,

   3   we stipulate with counsel for Odeh that Government's Exhibit

   4   535I are torn pieces of paper removed from the pocket in the

   5   pants Government's Exhibit --

   6            THE COURT:  535I are torn pieces of paper removed

   7   from the pocket of --

   8            MR. FITZGERALD:  Black pants, 535A.

   9            THE COURT:  535I was removed from the pocket of --

  10            MR. FITZGERALD:  535A.  We move 535I in evidence.

  11            THE COURT:  Received.

  12            (Government's Exhibit 535I received in evidence)

  13            MR. FITZGERALD:  We read Government's Exhibit 190,

  14   which is a stipulation.  It is hereby stipulated and agreed by

  15   and between the United States and defendant Mohamed Sadeek

  16   Odeh, by and with the consent of his attorneys, as follows:

  17            On or about August 7, 1998, Mohamed Sadeek Odeh,

  18   hereinafter Odeh, was detained at the international airport in

  19   Karachi, Pakistan, by officials of the Federal Immigration

  20   Agency.  Odeh and his belongings were first kept in an open

  21   facility at the airport used for detaining persons at the

  22   airport who have been refused admission to Pakistan or

  23   otherwise arrested at the airport.

  24            The following day, Odeh was transferred to another

  25   room where one other person was present.  Odeh and his


   1   belongings were housed there from August 7 to on or about

   2   August 11 or 12.  During that time, Odeh had access to his

   3   personal belongings.

   4            Following that, Odeh and his belongings were

   5   transferred to the custody of a different Pakistani government

   6   agency and kept in a location in the Karachi area for about

   7   one day.  During the time at the second location, Odeh had

   8   access to his personal belongings.

   9            On or about August 12 or 13, Odeh was transferred to

  10   another location.  During that time, Odeh also had access to

  11   his personal belongings.

  12            During all times while in Pakistan after Odeh was

  13   initially stopped by Sohail Anjum, Odeh was under guard and

  14   not given access to the telephone or to receive visitors.

  15            On August 14, 1998, Odeh and his clothing were placed

  16   on an airplane in Karachi and flown to Nairobi, Kenya, where

  17   he was transferred to the custody of Kenyan officials.

  18            Paragraph 2.  Whenever Odeh's clothing was

  19   transferred from one location to another in Pakistan, each

  20   Pakistani official responsible for the custody of Odeh and his

  21   clothing would be responsible for transferring Odeh's personal

  22   property to the next person responsible.

  23            It is further stipulated that the persons

  24   transferring Odeh's personal property were not wearing Tyvex

  25   suits or gloves and did not take swabbings of their own


   1   clothing or hands.

   2            Paragraph 3.  It is further stipulated and agreed

   3   that if called to testify as a witness, that an FBI agent

   4   would testify that:

   5            A.  On or about August 15, 1998, he was advised by a

   6   Pakistani official who was generally familiar with the Odeh

   7   matter but who was not one of the persons responsible for the

   8   custody of Odeh's personal property, among other things, that

   9   the Pakistani official understood that Odeh had four pieces of

  10   luggage.

  11            B.  On August 20, 1998, he spoke with another

  12   Pakistani official who was also generally familiar with the

  13   Odeh matter but who was not one of the persons responsible for

  14   the custody of Odeh's personal property.  The main subject of

  15   the meeting did not concern Odeh's personal property.  During

  16   the course of the discussion, the Pakistani official indicated

  17   that at the time of Odeh's detention in Karachi, Odeh had

  18   possessed a small bag filled with clothes and the FBI agent

  19   understood from that conversation that the Pakistani official

  20   believed that the bag was still in the custody of Pakistani

  21   officials on August 20.

  22            We would offer Government's Exhibit 190 in evidence.

  23            THE COURT:  Received.

  24            (Government's Exhibit 190 received in evidence)

  25            MR. FITZGERALD:  At this time we would read


   1   transcript marked Government's Exhibit 220B-T, and Miss Seda

   2   and Mr. Francisco will read the parts of the participants in

   3   that conversation, which was recorded on July 27, 1997, at

   4   2016 hours.

   5            (Government's Exhibit 220B-T in evidence read to the

   6   jury)

   7            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, the last conversation

   8   for the wiretap is a 10-minute transcript.

   9            THE COURT:  Ten minutes, we will do it tomorrow.

  10            Ladies and gentlemen, it has been a while since I

  11   reminded you not to read or listen to or look at anything

  12   about this case or remotely related to this case.  I remind

  13   you again, and we are adjourned until tomorrow morning.

  14            (Jury excused)

  15            THE COURT:  I received two notes from the jury.  One

  16   thanks me for their lunch outing.  One juror says that I hope

  17   you will be able to join us for lunch one day.

  18            The other note reads:  Judge Sand, we used to get

  19   pictures with names and pictures of the witnesses, and these

  20   are very helpful in keeping them straight.  If possible, can

  21   we resume this.  Thank you.

  22            I think I will just leave that, I will just not

  23   respond to that.  We are adjourned until tomorrow.

  24            (Proceedings adjourned until 10:00 a.m., Wednesday,

  25   April 4, 2001)


   1                        INDEX OF EXAMINATION

   2   Witness                    D      X      RD     RX

   3   MALEK SALEH.............3689   3699

   4   BENJAMIN V. VAUGHN......3706

   5   MITCHELL HOLLARS........3721   3728

   6   MARK WHITWORTH..........3752   3765    3776    3777

   7   KELLY MOUNT.............3779   3782    3791

   8                                  3792

   9                        GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS

  10   Exhibit No.                                     Received

  11   1500-T, 1501-T, 1537-T, 1542-T,

  12   1554-T, 1555-T, 1556-T, 1557B-T,

  13   1557C-T, 1557D-T, 1557E-T, 1559-T,

  14   1576B-T, 1579A-T, 1579B-T, 1579C-T,

  15   1580A through C-T, 1600A-T, 1602-T,

  16   1605-T, 1606-T, 1610-T, 1611-T,

  17   1612-T, 1622-T, 1626A through C-T,

  18   and 1626D-T, 1627-T, 1628A-T, 1629-T,

  19   1631 through 1634-T, 1635A and B-T,

  20   1636-T, and 1638-T ........................  3694

  21   300B-T, 245-T, 362-T, 906-T, 911-T, 908-T,

  22   910-T, and 246-T..........................   3697

  23    1502-T, 1503-T, 1504-T, 1505-T, 1506-T,

  24   1507-T, 1508-T, 1509-T, 1510-T, 1511-T,

  25   1512-T, 1513-T, 1514-T, 1515-T, and


   1   1516-T...................................    3709

   2    1537 and 1610-1612 .........................3718

   3    539 ........................................3723

   4    535A .......................................3754

   5    535B .......................................3757

   6    535C .......................................3758

   7    535D .......................................3759

   8    535E .......................................3760

   9    535G .......................................3760

  10    535H .......................................3761

  11    529 ........................................3763

  12    527, 529, 530A, 530B, 531A-I, 532A-C,

  13   536 and 537................................. 3764

  14    528 ........................................3777

  15    538 ........................................3781

  16    535I .......................................3794

  17    190 ........................................3796

  18                         DEFENDANT EXHIBITS

  19   Exhibit No.                                     Received

  20    WEH H ......................................3702

  21    Odeh BB, CC, DD, EE, FF, GG, HH, II, JJ,

  22   KK, LL, MM, NN, OO, PP, QQ, UU and TT....... 3769




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