21 June May 2001
Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of New York; (212) 805-0300.
This is the transcript of Day 67 of the trial, June 21, 2001.
See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm
7821 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 ------------------------------x 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 4 v. S(7) 98 Cr. 1023 5 USAMA BIN LADEN, et al., 6 Defendants. 7 ------------------------------x 8 New York, N.Y. 9 June 21, 2001 9:55 a.m. 10 11 12 Before: 13 HON. LEONARD B. SAND, 14 District Judge 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7822 1 APPEARANCES 2 MARY JO WHITE United States Attorney for the 3 Southern District of New York BY: PATRICK FITZGERALD 4 MICHAEL GARCIA Assistant United States Attorneys 5 DAVID RUHNKE 6 DAVID STERN Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7835 1 (Pages 7823-7824 sealed) 2 (In open court; jury present) 3 THE COURT: Good morning. 4 JURORS: Good morning. 5 THE COURT: The government may call its next witness. 6 MR. GARCIA: Thank you, Judge. The government calls 7 Robert Parrish. 8 ROBERT PARRISH, 9 called as a witness by the government, 10 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 11 DIRECT EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. GARCIA: 13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Parrish. 14 A. Good morning. 15 Q. If you could keep your voice up and maybe move a little 16 closer to the microphone, I think we will hear you a little 17 better. Thank you. 18 Mr. Parrish, are you retired? 19 A. Yes, I am. 20 Q. When did you retire? 21 A. December 30, 2000. 22 Q. Prior to retiring, where did you work? 23 A. The Metropolitan Correctional Center, New York. 24 Q. How long did you work at the Bureau of Prisons before you 25 retired? 7836 1 A. Twenty-five years. 2 Q. Were you working at the Metropolitan Correctional Center 3 in November 2000? 4 A. Yes, I was. 5 Q. What was your job at that time? 6 A. Special investigative agent. 7 Q. Were you working back on November 1, 2000? 8 A. Yes, I was. 9 Q. Did there come a time that you responded to a body alarm 10 that day? 11 A. That is correct. 12 Q. What did you do after you heard the alarm? 13 A. After I heard the alarm we all proceeded up the elevator 14 to 9 South, 10 South where the alarm was. Upon entering the 15 unit we proceeded upstairs, which is the high security unit, 16 which is 10 South. As staff approached, the outer door was 17 able to be opened by the control center, which is 18 electronically controlled from our control center. But the 19 inner door we were unable to get in because no one had the 20 key. So we had to wait for staff to go to the emergency 21 control center to get an emergency key to allow us in. 22 Q. Did there come a time that key came to the floor? 23 A. Yes, it did. 24 Q. Can you tell us what you did after you entered the 10 25 South unit. 7837 1 A. Prior to entering 10 South, staff observed an inmate 2 lingering behind a pillar attempting to hide. He hollered 3 there is an inmate loose to the unit. When the key arrived 4 and the door opened, staff entered the unit. Several staff, 5 myself included all proceeded, about fourth down the hallway, 6 myself, Joe Rementer, special investigative agent, both worked 7 in the same office, we stopped staff behind us and turned 8 around and proceeded to check the areas behind us, which you 9 have a couple of inmate cells to the rear, we have attorney 10 conference rooms, recreation room. So we checked these areas 11 ourselves. 12 Q. If I could ask you to keep your voice up a little bit 13 more, and if we could display for everyone Government's 14 Exhibit 4000, which is already in evidence, the diagram of 10 15 South. 16 Mr. Parrish, you were just describing for us how you 17 came in. I believe you initially came to the right you but 18 you stopped at some point. Could you indicate for us on the 19 diagram where you stopped, approximately. 20 A. Approximately, it would be between cell number 3 and you 21 see an area saying bath, toilet storage area. 22 Q. If I could interrupt you for one second, if it is possible 23 to have the jurors' monitors displaying this. 24 If you could proceed, Mr. Parrish. 25 A. Between cell 3 and you see an area right there that says 7838 1 storage, myself, Joe Rementer and the staff behind us, we 2 stopped there and turned around and decided to check all the 3 cell doors behind us to make sure there was no other inmate in 4 that area. 5 Q. Indicating that you stopped approximately in the middle of 6 the lower part of Government's Exhibit 4000? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. The doors you checked, could you just give us an overview 9 of what you checked when you turned around? 10 A. We turned around checked cell 3, cell 2, the recreation 11 cage, the inmate visiting, attorney visiting rooms -- there is 12 a total of two inmate visiting rooms, two attorney rooms, cell 13 1. There is a telephone room, which is basically where we 14 keep all the equipment for telephone monitoring. We checked 15 that total area. 16 Q. If you recall, were there people in those rooms when you 17 were checking the doors? 18 A. Yes, there was. 19 Q. Were they civilians or Bureau of Prisons personnel? 20 A. They were civilians and the first says inmate visiting and 21 attorney, there was two females if I am not mistaken in that 22 room, and an inmate in the adjoining room. The next inmate 23 visiting attorney room there was, if I am not mistaken, one or 24 two attorneys and an inmate. 25 Q. After you checked this area, checked the doors in that 7839 1 area, what did you do next? 2 A. After we checked those areas, I proceeded back around to 3 the hallway heading back towards the lieutenant's office and 4 the area itself. 5 Q. What if anything did you see as you were proceeding back 6 to that area? 7 A. As I was proceeding back to that area, as I got 8 approximately a few feet past the storage area you see, which 9 is the hallway, that is the time I observed Officer Louis Pepe 10 approaching me with several staff members, with some form of 11 black object protruding from his facial area, and his face was 12 totally covered in blood as well as his clothes. 13 Q. What did you do next? 14 A. At that time I started to proceed towards the lieutenant's 15 office, approximately got to cell 4, somewhere in that 16 location. At that time I heard a commotion going to the back, 17 and by that time, by the time I got almost to the office, 18 that's when they approached me with an inmate. 19 Q. What happened with that inmate? 20 A. They escorted -- they actually physically was carrying 21 that inmate, and I stepped to the side to allow them to come 22 by me, due to the fact that the hallway is so narrow. At that 23 time I proceeded back to the front with the staff that was 24 escorting that inmate, and they brought him all the way back 25 up to the front area and placed him on the floor in between 7840 1 the officer's station, as you can see, and it says inmate 2 visiting area. He was actually placed on the floor there. 3 Q. Mr. Parrish, generally in a situation like this, would 4 inmates who are involved have their clothing removed? 5 A. Yes, they would. 6 Q. Why would that be? 7 A. Due to the fact that there was a weapon and for the safety 8 of staff as well as inmates, to insure that this individual 9 did not have any weapons concealed on them during that time. 10 Q. What did you do after that? 11 A. After that the inmate, I stayed in that position the whole 12 time until they got an elevator up to take the inmate off the 13 unit, at which time they took him off the unit, and then I 14 proceeded to the back. 15 Q. Mr. Parrish, if you remember, was there an associate 16 warden or assistant warden on the floor? 17 A. There was an associate warden, psychologist, several other 18 department heads standing in this area where the inmate was 19 laying face down on the floor. 20 MR. RUHNKE: I can't see from my vantage what the 21 agent is referring to. 22 A. This is the front area by the officer's desk, officer 23 station. 24 Q. Mr. Parrish, at that time in November of 2000, were you 25 familiar with the procedure for making tapes on this floor? 7841 1 A. No, not correct. 2 Q. Did there come a time when someone asked you to retrieve a 3 tape from an office on this floor? 4 A. Yes, there did. 5 Q. Can you tell us about that. 6 A. I received a call to ask us did we have a tape of the 7 area, at which time I said yes. I perceived it was an agent. 8 I am not sure which agent it was. I proceeded back down the 9 hallway toward what you see is the lieutenant's office. It is 10 the back side of the unit. You see a sign saying it's the 11 lieutenant's office. There is a total of two monitors in 12 there. One sits to the left-hand side of the desk and there 13 is a monitor to the bottom. I retrieved a tape from the very 14 top monitor and I took it out and I handed it to an 15 Afro-American agent. 16 Q. That was the same day or a different day? 17 A. That was the same date. 18 Q. Do you recall approximately what time? 19 A. No. It was sometime in the evening. I am not for sure 20 exactly what time it was. 21 Q. Did there come a time when you again heard from the FBI 22 that day about tapes? 23 A. Yes, I did. 24 Q. Tell us what happened that time? 25 A. I received a phone call from an agent -- as to his name or 7842 1 who he was or the color of his skin I have no idea -- as to 2 that they didn't have the correct tape. At that time I told 3 him there should be another tape upstairs. When I received 4 the call I was standing at the officer's station. I proceeded 5 back to the lieutenant's office. Then I looked and I 6 retrieved the tape from the bottom recorder. I brought that 7 tape up front, which is an officer's station. We have a 8 monitor and VCR up there and I placed it into the VCR and 9 nothing happened. I couldn't eject the VCR. I couldn't eject 10 the tape from the VCR. At that time there was several staff 11 as well as agents there and there was a mechanical service 12 person. We couldn't get our arm between the cabinets to get 13 down to release the VCR. At that time an officer did 14 disconnect the wire from the VCR. We pulled the VCR out. The 15 individual from mechanical services actually took a 16 screwdriver, took the top off the VCR, pushed the button, the 17 tape ejected, and I handed that to an agent. 18 Q. Was this the same agent or a different agent from the 19 first time? 20 A. It was a different agent if I am not mistaken. 21 Q. Are you aware what happened to the first tape that was 22 brought? 23 A. No, I do not recall. 24 Q. As far as you were aware, were there any other tapes in 25 any machines in that lieutenant's office? 7843 1 A. Not that I can recall at this time. 2 MR. GARCIA: Thank you. 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION 4 BY MR. STERN: 5 Q. Sir, I want to talk to you about the time when you first 6 saw someone bringing an inmate from somewhere back in the 7 cells towards the front. Did you know the inmates who at that 8 time were on 10 South? 9 A. Did I know the inmates -- 10 Q. Would you recognize them if you saw them? 11 A. No, not for sure. 12 Q. Had you spent much time on 10 South? 13 A. I make my rounds but there were several inmates. I 14 couldn't tell you that I could identify what inmate was 15 brought to the front. 16 Q. So you don't know if it was Mr. Mohamed or someone else? 17 A. No, I don't. 18 Q. But the inmate that you saw being brought, whoever it was, 19 was brought all the way to the front near the officer's desk; 20 is that right? 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. From the time that inmate was carried past the vicinity of 23 the lieutenant's office, you were in the company of that 24 inmate until he was brought downstairs, right? 25 A. That is correct. 7844 1 Q. Could you tell me who the officers were carrying that 2 inmate from the back up to the front? 3 A. I cannot recall what officers were carrying him. It's 4 been since October. There were several staff members. 5 Q. I am sorry. 6 A. I cannot recall what officers that were actually carrying 7 him. 8 Q. Do you recall if they were African American or white? 9 A. It could have been a mixture of both. 10 Q. But you don't recall? 11 A. No, I really don't. 12 Q. So as you sit here, you couldn't tell me anything about 13 who those people were? 14 A. No, I could not. 15 Q. Could you tell me how many people were involved in doing 16 that? 17 A. No, I could not. 18 Q. When they brought him, whoever this person was, up to the 19 front, was he struggling with them? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did he seem to be unconscious? 22 A. No, he did not. 23 Q. He was, as far as you could tell, awake and alert but 24 passive? 25 A. He was alert and impassive. He wasn't unconscious, as far 7845 1 as I could tell. 2 Q. When he was brought to the front, he was put down -- if we 3 could have Exhibit 4000 -- he was put down right near this 4 desk that looks like sort of a half a hexagon or something 5 like that; is that right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. When he was there, he was almost right in front of the 8 inmate visiting cell nearest the top of the diagram; is that 9 right? 10 A. Yes, between attorney and inmate visiting cell. 11 Q. As you stood there and this inmate was on the ground, was 12 he face up or face down? 13 A. Face down. 14 Q. Face up. 15 A. Face down. 16 Q. Face down? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did you see him struggle at all during the time you saw 19 him? 20 A. No, I did not, that I recall. 21 Q. Did you see him try to do anything to anyone? 22 A. Not that I can recall. 23 Q. Did you see him handcuffed? 24 A. Yes, he was handcuffed. 25 Q. Was that in front of him or behind him? 7846 1 A. It was behind him. 2 Q. Did you see anyone touch him in any way? 3 A. No -- 4 Q. Did anyone hit him? 5 A. No, I didn't see that. 6 Q. Did anyone kick him? 7 A. No I didn't see that. 8 Q. Did anyone strike him? 9 A. No, I did not see that. 10 Q. Did any medical staff try to see him? 11 A. There were several medical staff, a physician assistant 12 and a hospital administrator. I know one medical staff member 13 looked at him and at that time he was escorted downstairs. As 14 to which staff member, I cannot recall at this time. 15 Q. Did you know who those staff members were from the medical 16 staff? 17 A. Dr. McDonald, and I can't remember the PA's name. 18 Q. But there was a PA? 19 A. Yes, there was. 20 Q. As you sit here now, you don't remember whether it was the 21 PA or the doctor who went up and treated this inmate? 22 A. No, I don't remember. 23 Q. You are aware, are you not, that there is a monitoring 24 system for 10 South? 25 A. That is correct. 7847 1 Q. That system is capable of monitoring each cell, right? 2 A. That is correct. 3 Q. It is capable of monitoring what are called rec rooms, the 4 bigger empty cells, correct? 5 A. That is correct. 6 Q. It is capable of monitoring the attorney visit rooms, 7 right? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. Monitors the entranceway to 10 South? 10 A. That is correct. 11 Q. The point of that system is that you can see what is going 12 on in 10 South even if you are not going all around 10 South 13 yourself, that is, sitting at the front desk or the 14 lieutenant's office, you can keep an eye on the whole facility 15 of 10 South, right? 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. You are also aware, are you not, that at least one of 18 those machines is capable, whether it did it on this day or 19 not, is capable of making a videotape of what occurs. 20 A. That is correct. 21 Q. That videotape would show rotating shots of each area on 22 10 South that is being monitored, right? 23 A. That is correct. 24 Q. So when you are watching what you see as -- I am not 25 saying exactly, but, for example, you would see a shot of cell 7848 1 6, a shot of cell 5, a shot of the rec room, and it keeps 2 rotating through that series of shots, correct? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. Do you know who if anyone's job it is to put tapes into 5 those machines? 6 A. Since I have no working knowledge as to how the taping 7 system was going on at that time, the only thing I can think, 8 it was the lieutenant's responsibility or the officer just to 9 place a tape in the machine. 10 Q. As far as you know, a lieutenant or officer's 11 responsibility? 12 A. Yes, who was assigned to that area. 13 Q. Are you aware if there are rules or regulations about how 14 often those tapes should be changed? 15 A. Prior to this, no, I was not. 16 Q. Are you aware how long those tapes can tape what is going 17 on without running out? 18 A. Prior to me coming back to New York, no. 19 Q. Are you aware now of how long those tapes run? 20 A. Not at this time, because the procedure has changed since 21 I left here in December. 22 Q. Sir, I am really having trouble hearing you. 23 A. No, I am not. 24 Q. You spoke with an agent, an FBI agent, on November 1, 25 right? 7849 1 A. That is correct. 2 Q. That was the day this incident occurred, wasn't it? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. You were aware that this agent was investigating what had 5 occurred on 10 South that day, correct? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Q. If I were to tell you the agent's name was David B. Stone, 8 would that ring a bell with you as the agent with whom you 9 spoke? 10 A. No, because I spoke to several agents that day. 11 Q. They made clear to you that they wanted whatever evidence 12 you could provide about what had happened, right? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. And they told you that one piece of evidence might be this 15 videotape, correct? 16 A. They asked for the videotape. 17 Q. You knew they asked for it as a piece of evidence in 18 connection with this case, right? 19 MR. GARCIA: Objection. Asked and answered. 20 THE COURT: Yes, move on. 21 Q. So you gave them a videotape, fair to say? 22 A. That is correct. 23 Q. There are facilities on 10 South for viewing a videotape, 24 aren't there? 25 A. That is correct. 7850 1 Q. Did you view that videotape before you gave it to them? 2 A. No, I did not. 3 Q. Did you try to provide them with every videotape that 4 could be found in the lieutenant's office? 5 A. No, I only brought those two videotapes, the tapes that 6 was exactly in the machine at that time. 7 Q. So on November 1, you provided them with two videotapes? 8 A. I provided them the first tape and I received a call 9 saying it was the wrong tape. Then I told them there should 10 be a second tape. I proceeded back to the office and I pulled 11 the second tape out, and I brought that to the front. So 12 there was a total of two tapes, two separate occasions. 13 Q. On November 1, how many tapes did you give them? 14 A. Two tapes. 15 Q. There came a time, did there not, when an agent came back 16 to talk to you again, right, about a week later? 17 A. About a week later? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. I can't recall. Several agents came back to the 20 institution within a period of time -- 21 Q. About a week later an agent named Joseph D. Foelsch coming 22 back to talk with you? 23 I am sorry. It would have been over the telephone. 24 He didn't actually come to talk to you. 25 A. I have talked to Joseph D. Foelsch over the phone. As to 7851 1 what we talked about, I have no idea or knowledge at this 2 time. 3 Q. Do you recall that Agent Foelsch was asking you about the 4 tapes that you provided to the FBI? 5 A. I can't recall. 6 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I were to tell you 7 that you told him -- 8 MR. GARCIA: Objection. 9 THE COURT: Yes, sustained. Do you want to show him 10 something to refresh his recollection? 11 MR. STERN: Sure. 12 Q. Agent, I am handing you a document which will ultimately 13 be marked KKM12 for identification and I would ask you to take 14 a look at it. I want you to read through that and look up 15 when you are done, Agent. 16 A. All right. 17 No, I don't recall this conversation. 18 Q. Did you have a chance to read that? 19 A. Yes, I did. 20 Q. Before I ask you about that, how much time elapsed from 21 the time you gave the agent the first tape until the time you 22 went back and gave the agent a second tape? 23 A. There was so many things going on that day, I couldn't 24 actually tell you how much time elapsed between the time I 25 gave them the first tape and the second tape. 7852 1 Q. Was it minutes? 2 A. I couldn't tell you whether it was minutes, hours or 3 seconds. 4 Q. So you don't remember if you gave them one in the 5 beginning of the day and one at the end or if you gave them 6 one and immediately gave them another? 7 A. I can't tell you how much time elapsed between the first 8 and the second tape. 9 Q. I am not asking you the exact amount of time. I am asking 10 you generally. 11 MR. GARCIA: Objection. 12 THE COURT: Overruled. 13 A. I am not sure -- it wasn't morning -- if it was after the 14 first tape, sometime in the afternoon -- I can't tell you 15 whether it was minutes or hours. 16 Q. You had a chance, I take it, to examine these tapes at 17 some point, didn't you? 18 A. No, I did not examine the tapes. 19 Q. Were you ever aware that one tape started at 11 p.m. on 20 October 31? 21 A. No, I was not aware. 22 Q. Were you ever aware that a tape stopped at 1:04 on 23 November 1? 24 A. No, I was not. 25 Q. Were you ever aware that there was a copy of a tape given 7853 1 to the FBI? 2 A. No, I was not. 3 Q. Were you ever aware that the original tape was reused and 4 therefore couldn't be viewed? 5 A. No. I have no knowledge of that. I cannot recall that. 6 Q. Did you ever tell any of those things over the telephone 7 on November 9 to Special Agent Joseph D. Foelsch of the FBI? 8 A. No, I cannot recall that, and I have checked and searched 9 in my mind. I was asked that question previously. 10 Q. I am asking you, did you say those things? Yes or no. 11 A. No. 12 Q. You did not? 13 A. I cannot recall saying those things. 14 MR. STERN: I have nothing else. Thank you. 15 MR. GARCIA: Very briefly, Judge. 16 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. GARCIA: 18 Q. Is it fair to say, Mr. Parrish, that you had a number of 19 conversations with the FBI about those tapes from the period 20 of November 1 through November 9? 21 A. That's a possibility, it is. 22 MR. GARCIA: I have nothing further. 23 THE COURT: Thank you. You may step down. 24 (Witness excused) 25 THE COURT: The government may call its next witness. 7854 1 MR. GARCIA: The government calls Wilford Baptiste. 2 3 (Continued on next page) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7855 1 WILFRED E. BAPTISTE, 2 called as a witness by the government, 3 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 4 DIRECT EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. GARCIA: 6 Q. Sir, are you an agent with the FBI? 7 A. Yes, I am. 8 Q. And on November 1st, 2000, did there come a time that you 9 went to the Metropolitan Correctional Center? 10 A. Yes, I did. 11 Q. About what time was that? 12 A. About 10:30, 11:00 in the morning. 13 Q. After you got to the MCC where did you go, what unit, do 14 you recall? 15 A. Yes. 10 South, I believe. 16 Q. And did there come a time that day that you received a 17 videotape? 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 Q. Do you recall approximately what time that was? 20 A. About 11:30, maybe close to 12. 21 Q. Who was it that handed you that videotape? 22 A. Robert Perrish from MCC. 23 Q. And could you tell us just what happened when he gave you 24 that tape? 25 A. When he gave me the tape, I took it over to our office at 7856 1 26 Federal Plaza here in New York City. I went up to the 2 video room and I reviewed the tape with the person that was in 3 charge of the video room, Steve Wagner. 4 Q. And just to back up a little bit, where were you when Mr. 5 Perrish handed you the tape? 6 A. Right in the sort of the waiting room of the cell area, 10 7 South. 8 MR. GARCIA: If we could have Government Exhibit 4000 9 for one minute. 10 Q. Could you just show us on Government Exhibit 4000 where 11 you were when you got the tape, the left-hand side being the 12 entryway? 13 A. You said the left-hand side is the entrance area? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. Right over here. 16 Q. If you could just describe it for us. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. Which room? 19 A. To your left by the office area, and then slightly in 20 front of that. 21 Q. So just inside the unit? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Fair to say? 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. And you mentioned that you took the tape back to 26 7857 1 Federal Plaza, is that the FBI office downtown? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. And you viewed the tape at that time? 4 A. Yes, I did. 5 Q. And your recollection, what did the tape show? 6 A. Showed hallways, showed a couple of doors, that was 7 basically it. 8 Q. Did it show any of the interiors of the cells? 9 A. No, it did not. 10 Q. And did it show the date, November 1st? 11 A. No, it did not. 12 Q. And what did you do after you viewed that tape? 13 A. I called Dave Stone, the supervisor, and advised him that 14 this was the tape that he wanted me to get. 15 Q. And what did you do after that? 16 A. He told me to come back to MCC and retrieve the correct 17 tape. 18 Q. And what did you do then? 19 A. Okay. I proceeded over to the MCC. When I arrived, Dave 20 Stone was leaving and he said he has the correct tape. So I 21 left the other tape with the receptionist downstairs to return 22 to Robert Perrish for me. 23 Q. And so you didn't have anything to do with retrieving the 24 second tape up on 10 South? 25 A. No, I did not. 7858 1 MR. GARCIA: I have nothing further, Judge. 2 CROSS-EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. STERN: 4 Q. Agent, you went to 10 South that morning. You were 5 looking to get a tape to provide evidence in connection with 6 this case, were you not? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And you spoke to Mr. Perrish because you thought that he 9 could get for you just the tape you were looking for, right? 10 A. Well, Dave Stone spoke to him and advised him to provide 11 the tape to me. 12 Q. Did you go with him to the place where he got the tape 13 from? 14 A. No, I did not. 15 Q. Did you see where he got that tape from? 16 A. No, I did not. 17 Q. He just brought you a tape and then you took it with you, 18 right? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. What time was it when you got back to your offices? 21 A. Around 12:00, a little after 12 probably. 22 Q. How long did it take you to watch that tape? 23 A. Maybe a half hour, a little more. 24 Q. And as you watched that tape, it was apparent to you that 25 that tape had nothing to do with what you were interested in, 7859 1 right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. So did you, very shortly after finishing watching it, call 4 to try to figure out what to do next? 5 A. Yes, I did. 6 Q. And what time was it, if you recall, when you got back to 7 MCC and you say your supervisor, Mr. Stone, was just leaving, 8 what time was that? 9 A. I believe it might have been 1:00, approximately. 10 Q. So something like two or three hours had elapsed between 11 the time you got the first tape and the time the second tape 12 was gotten; is that correct? 13 A. That's about right. 14 Q. And that second tape also had nothing on it to do with 15 this case, did it? 16 A. I don't know. I didn't have that tape. 17 MR. STERN: Thanks. I have nothing else. 18 MR. GARCIA: Nothing, Judge. 19 THE COURT: Thank you, Agent. You may step down. 20 (Witness excused) 21 THE COURT: The government may call the next witness. 22 MR. FITZGERALD: David Stone. 23 DAVID STONE, 24 called as a witness by the government, 25 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 7860 1 DIRECT EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. GARCIA: 3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Stone. 4 A. Good morning. 5 Q. Are you an agent with the FBI? 6 A. Yes, I am. 7 Q. And were you working on November 1, 2000? 8 A. Yes, I was. 9 Q. And did there come a time on that day that you first 10 viewed a videotape in your offices at 26 Federal Plaza? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And generally what did that tape show, if you recall? 13 A. It was a tape which showed the hallways and a doorway of 14 the Metropolitan Correctional Center. 15 Q. And after viewing that tape, what did you do? 16 A. Well, we had already been conducting an investigation over 17 there and I called over and told them that this tape was not 18 the tape that showed the cell area which we were 19 investigating, and so they said, well, then come on back over 20 and we'll get that tape for you. So I went back over to the 21 Metropolitan Correctional Center and obtained another tape. 22 Q. And could you tell us how that happened that you got that 23 second tape? 24 A. I received the second tape, I went back up to the cell 25 block area we were investigating, and I met Mr. Perrish and 7861 1 Mr. Perrish provided me a tape. It was actually in a machine 2 by the front door, and they said that they were having 3 problems getting it out of the machine so they got a 4 technician to come up and he undid the machine and took off 5 the cover and then ejected the tape from that, and I took it 6 from Mr. Perrish there. 7 Q. Agent Stone, let's back up a little bit. When you first 8 got to the unit, did you see Mr. Perrish? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. When you first got to 10 South Unit? 11 A. When I came back at 10 South, I saw Mr. Perrish. 12 Q. And did he have the tape at that time? 13 A. No, he did not. 14 Q. Did you ask him to get you the tape? 15 A. I told him that the first tape we got was not the tape and 16 to get -- and we needed the tape. He then went and got the 17 tape. 18 Q. And where did he go and where did you go after you asked 19 him to get the tape? 20 A. After I told him that we needed another tape, or the tape, 21 he went down the cell area, which appeared to be in the back, 22 and then I conducted some other duties in the rec. room there 23 that was right off to the, my left, I guess, or right. 24 MR. GARCIA: If we could just put up 4000 quickly? 25 Q. And going back, you said that Mr. Perrish went down the 7862 1 cell area, towards the back. If you could just indicate for 2 us which way he went on this diagram. 3 A. Well, the front door was here, and we were standing in 4 this -- 5 THE COURT: Referring to the far left of that diagram 6 for the front door? 7 THE WITNESS: That's correct. On the far left, that 8 was the main door I came in. 9 I met Mr. Perrish here, in that little foyer area, 10 and then he continued down this hallway, along the right side 11 down the hallway to the back. 12 Q. On the bottom? 13 A. This area. 14 Q. Bottom of the diagram where it says Cell 2, Cell 3? 15 A. Correct. He continued down that hallway in that area, and 16 then I entered into the recreation room and talked with other 17 agents conducting investigation. And he subsequently came 18 back to the foyer area outside the recreation room, and at 19 that time he told me that the tape was jammed in the machine. 20 And the machine was right behind this, just to the left of the 21 front door as you come in, a little station there. There was 22 a -- 23 Q. So when you saw him again after he went in the back, the 24 tape was jammed in the front machine? 25 A. That's correct. 7863 1 Q. And did there come a time the tape was removed from that 2 machine? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And what happened after that? 5 A. I took that tape and brought it back across the street to 6 view it and brought it to our audio lab. 7 Q. And did you view it at that time? 8 A. Yes, I did. 9 Q. And could you tell us generally what you recollect was on 10 it? 11 A. It did show the cell areas, however, I believe it went up 12 to November 1st, but it didn't go up to the date -- it was 13 around 1:00 or so that it went up to in the morning and it did 14 not show anything past that. 15 Q. I'll approach and show you what has been marked for 16 identification as Government Exhibit 4118. Do you recognize 17 that exhibit, Agent Stone? 18 A. Yes, this is the tape. 19 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, at this time the government 20 offers 4118. 21 THE COURT: Received. 22 (Government Exhibit 4118 received in evidence) 23 MR. GARCIA: I have nothing further. 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION 25 BY MR. STERN: 7864 1 Q. Agent, am I correct in thinking that there were two 2 separate trips made to MCC on November 1st to pick up tapes? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Is there an agent Baptist or Baptiste who works for you? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And the first trip, was he the person who went and 7 actually physically picked up the tape? 8 A. I don't -- he was the one that was assigned to get the 9 tape, that's correct. Whether he physically picked it up or 10 not, I don't know. 11 Q. Okay. But before he went, did someone call the MCC and 12 speak with someone there to tell them what it was you wanted? 13 A. No. We responded as a result of an incident at MCC. 14 Q. Without talking to anyone first? 15 A. Without talking to anybody. 16 Q. So Agent Baptiste or someone went and picked up a tape and 17 brought it back to the offices of your organization, right? 18 A. We responded to the incident and then we all were given 19 assignments and we started to conduct investigation, and he 20 was assigned to get that tape. He was told that Robert 21 Perrish would be able to provide that tape to him, and he went 22 off with Robert Perrish to get the tape. 23 Q. That tape was then brought back to your offices, correct? 24 A. He then said he had the tape, and he was told to go back 25 to the office, bring it back to the office and have it 7865 1 duplicated and to view it. 2 Q. And eventually you got a call from him, right? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. And he said this tape does not show what we want? 5 A. He said it doesn't appear to show the cell areas in which 6 we are investigating. 7 Q. Were you still at MCC at that time? 8 A. I was still at MCC. 9 Q. So you decided that you would try and get another tape 10 that might show what it was you wanted, correct? 11 A. I told had him, I'll come over and take a look at it and 12 see for sure, because the cell area we were investigating I 13 felt I was familiar with at that point. 14 So I went back across the street to see what he was 15 talking about, and in viewing the tape it appeared that it was 16 not the area. So at that point then I called back across the 17 street and told them that, you know, this was not the tape and 18 that we would be coming back. 19 Q. Who did you speak to -- 20 I'm sorry. 21 A. And we would be coming back and get the tape. 22 Q. And who did you speak to when you called? 23 A. I believe I spoke to Anthony Nelson. 24 Q. Did you ever speak to Mr. Perrish about it? 25 A. No, not at that -- not telephonically. It wasn't until I 7866 1 got to MCC again that I then advised Mr. Perrish that we need 2 the other tape or the tape that shows the cell areas. 3 Q. Let's go back for a minute when you talked to Mr. Nelson. 4 Did he tell you we don't have any such tape? 5 A. Anthony Nelson? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. No, he had said that Mr. Perrish would have that tape, to 8 contact him again and get the tape. 9 Q. And so I take it he also didn't say to you that the system 10 wasn't working, right? 11 A. No. 12 Q. So you went back over and you came with Mr. Perrish, and 13 you said there must be another tape, we need that tape, right? 14 A. I said the other tape did not show the cell areas, it 15 showed some hallways and a front door. He said, oh, that must 16 be, it must be another tape. And I said, okay, well, we need 17 the tape of this cell area. He said, oh, okay, I'll get it. 18 Q. And so Mr. Perrish didn't say to you we don't have any 19 such tape, right? 20 A. No. 21 Q. And he then gave you another tape that you then went back 22 to view, right? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. And when you viewed that tape, it did show the areas you 25 were interested in, did it not? 7867 1 A. It did. 2 Q. But it didn't show them at the right time, correct? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. The tape you viewed started on October 31st, right? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. And was actually taking pictures of what was going on on 7 10 South of MCC on October 31st, right? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. It continued through the very early morning of November 10 1st, right? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. And it was actually taking pictures of what was going on 13 on 10 South on November 1st? 14 MR. GARCIA: Objection. Asked and answered. 15 Q. Correct? 16 THE COURT: I think the objection was to 17 repetitiousness, which is a valid objection. So let's move 18 on. 19 BY MR. STERN: 20 Q. And at some point you realize this tape also doesn't show 21 what we need, right? 22 A. It didn't show the time that we were investigating, that's 23 correct. 24 Q. So did you call again to MCC and say this also isn't the 25 right tape, do you have another tape? 7868 1 A. Yes, I did. 2 Q. And who did you speak to when you called that time? 3 A. I believe it was Anthony Nelson again. 4 Q. And that time what were you told? 5 A. I was told that he would talk to Robert Perrish and find 6 out what the story is with the tape, where is the tape? 7 Q. Were you ever told what the story was with that tape? 8 A. I went back over to MCC again. 9 Q. That same day? 10 A. Right. Went back up to MCC and I spoke with Robert 11 Perrish and other people there as far as where the tape was. 12 Q. And the answer was? 13 A. They said they gave us all the tapes that they had. 14 MR. STERN: I have nothing else. Thank you. 15 MR. GARCIA: Just one thing. 16 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. GARCIA: 18 Q. You mentioned a few times in your cross-examination 19 Anthony, a gentleman named Anthony Nelson? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Does he work for FBI? 22 A. Yes, he's a supervisor special agent for the FBI. 23 Q. So he doesn't work for the Bureau of Prisons? 24 A. No, he does not. 25 MR. GARCIA: Thank you. 7869 1 THE COURT: Thank you, Agent. You may step down. 2 (Witness excused) 3 THE COURT: The government may call its next witness. 4 MR. GARCIA: The government calls Leonard Hatton. 5 LEONARD W. HATTON, 6 called as a witness by the government, 7 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 8 DIRECT EXAMINATION 9 BY MR. GARCIA: 10 Q. Agent Hatton, you work for the FBI? 11 A. That's correct, sir. 12 Q. And how long have you been with the Bureau? 13 A. Been employed with the Federal Bureau of Investigation for 14 approximately 15 years. I've been with the Joint Bank Robbery 15 Task Force, my current unit, since 1991. 16 Q. And were you working on November 1st, 2000? 17 A. I was, sir. 18 Q. Did there come a time that day that you were called upon 19 to process a crime scene at the 10 South Unit of the 20 Metropolitan Correctional Center? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Approximately how many crime scenes have you processed in 23 your career? 24 A. Crime scenes, processing of the evidence from crime 25 scenes, probably upwards of about a thousand. 7870 1 Q. And about what time did you arrive at the MCC? 2 A. We got notified at about 11:55. We got over there 3 approximately 12:20. 4 Q. And what did you do after you arrived on the 10 South 5 floor? 6 A. We met with some individuals from the Bureau of Prisons 7 and some of our supervisory staff, and they briefed us on what 8 they had there and they asked us to give them a hand. 9 Q. And when you arrived, did the crime scene appear secured? 10 A. Yes, sir, it was. 11 Q. And what was your role to be at the crime scene? 12 A. I was selected to be the leader and to put together a 13 group of people and to process that crime scene. 14 Q. And as part of that processing, did you take photographs? 15 A. I did, sir. 16 Q. And did you also collect samples of various substances 17 that you found there? 18 A. We did. 19 Q. Before we go in detail through your processing of the 20 crime scene, could you just give us a brief overview of how 21 you proceeded? 22 A. Yes, sir. Upon arriving there and after being briefed, I 23 did a walk-through with another agent by the name of Peter 24 Kohn. The tenth floor is basically set up in a horseshoe-type 25 shape. We originally walked through the crime scene to find 7871 1 out what we had. 2 Upon walking through the crime scene, I came on back 3 and gave a total of four agents, myself, assignments of what 4 we were going to go and do. We then proceeded into the crime 5 scene. 6 We took our photographs, initial photographs, came on 7 back, started picking up the evidence in order, and then later 8 on we took our swabbings. 9 Q. You took swabbings, that would be of the substances? 10 A. Yes, that's correct. 11 Q. Later that evening did you also execute a search warrant 12 inside Cell 6? 13 A. Yes, sir. At about 7:08, 7:05 p.m. that evening we got a 14 search warrant and we collected a lot of documents from Cell 15 6. 16 Q. Agent, you said you took a number of photographs of the 17 crime scene, correct? 18 A. Yes, sir. We took about maybe about 114, 104 photographs. 19 Q. And prior to coming to court, did you have an opportunity 20 to review various photographs -- and I'll read the Government 21 Exhibits into the record, 4003 to -06, -07, 4007A, 4008 to 22 4021, 4022A, -22B, -22C, 4023, 4024, 4025, 4027, -28, -29, 23 4032, -33, -34, -35, -36, -37, -38 and -39 -- did you have a 24 chance to view those photographs? 25 A. Yes, sir. 7872 1 Q. And are those fair and accurate copies of the photos you 2 took that day when you processed the crime scene? 3 A. They were, sir. 4 MR. GARCIA: And I believe two of those have already 5 been offered into evidence and received, 4003, 4005, and the 6 government at this time would offer the rest of the numbers 7 that I read out, your Honor. 8 MR. RUHNKE: Without objection. 9 THE COURT: Received. 10 (Government Exhibits 4003 to 4006, 4007, 4007A, 4008 11 to 4021, 4022A, 4022B, 4022C, 4023, 4024, 4025, 4027, 4028, 12 4029, 4032, 4033, 4034, 4035, 4036, 4037, 4038 and 4039 13 received in evidence) 14 MR. GARCIA: If we could put up 4003 first. 15 Q. Is this one of the photos you took that day? 16 A. Yes, sir, that's correct. 17 Q. What are we seeing here? 18 A. Basically a photograph as you enter the 10 South area. 19 There is only one door coming in. As you step through the 20 door, this is what you would go and see directly ahead of you. 21 Q. And if you go to 4004. 22 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, could I just have a moment 23 of voir dire on 4003? 24 THE COURT: Yes. 25 VOIR DIRE 7873 1 BY MR. RUHNKE: 2 Q. Back to 4003. 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Agent, that box that's in the foreground of 4003, what is 5 that? 6 A. That's a government exhibit sticker, sir. 7 Q. Not the government exhibit sticker. The box that's in the 8 photograph, the wooden box. 9 A. Oh, the wooden box. Sorry, sir. That was a box that the 10 people from the BOP, Bureau of Prisons, brought in. That was 11 their evidence stuff that they had in there. 12 Q. It was their crime scene equipment, is that correct? 13 A. I would say so. Yes, sir. 14 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you. Nothing else, your Honor. 15 DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued) 16 BY MR. GARCIA: 17 Q. If we could have 4004. 18 Could you tell us, Agent Hatton, what the view we are 19 seeing here is? 20 A. Yes, sir. As you walk on in, if you were to walk on in 21 and turn to your left and look in a westerly direction, this 22 is going down towards Cell No. 1. 23 MR. GARCIA: And is it possible to do a split screen, 24 with the diagram. 25 Q. So, Agent Hatton, if we are looking again at the diagram 7874 1 4000 on the top, could you just indicate to us the area that 2 this photograph displays? 3 A. As you would walk right on in, it would be walking down 4 this way right here. The photograph is the hallway. 5 Q. So towards Cell 1? 6 A. Going down towards Cell 1, yes, sir. 7 Q. And now it's a little bit smaller, but the item in the 8 left-hand center of Government Exhibit 4004, do you remember 9 what that was? 10 A. Yes, sir. That was a pair of gray sweat pants. 11 Q. I'll show you Government Exhibit 4058. Did you have a 12 chance to examine that prior to coming to court, Agent? 13 A. Yes, sir, I did. 14 Q. Are those the sweat pants that you recovered from the 15 hallway here? 16 A. That's correct, sir. 17 MR. GARCIA: At this time, your Honor, the government 18 offers 4058. 19 MR. RUHNKE: Without objection. 20 THE COURT: Received. 21 (Government Exhibit 4058 received in evidence) 22 BY MR. GARCIA: 23 Q. By the way, Agent, there are some markings on the sweats 24 here, some circles and some numbers, those weren't on them 25 when you collected them? 7875 1 A. No, sir. That got put on by lab personnel. 2 Q. If we could go to 4005. 3 What is the view we are seeing here on the bottom? 4 A. This is as you come in through the main entrance and you 5 are turning off to your right, and this is a photograph where 6 you are going to see where the inmate visiting room is, 7 looking down the hallway. It was taken right about there 8 going down -- 9 Q. By Cell 2, Cell 3? 10 A. Yes, sir, that's right. Cell 2 and Cell 3 are on your 11 right-hand side. 12 Q. If we could go to 4006, and could you again show us on the 13 diagram where this hallway is? 14 A. Yes. This is going to be right across from where it says 15 "office" on the wall there. 16 Q. So the lower middle of that diagram? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And if we could go to 4007, and if you could first show us 19 where on the diagram what view we are seeing here? 20 A. Sir, this is a -- well, there's a ripped shirt you can see 21 in the lower right-hand corner. This is going to be in the 22 vicinity of Cell 4, 4 and 5. 23 Q. The area of Cell 4, Cell 5, lower right? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And you mentioned that that was a ripped shirt? 7876 1 A. That's correct, sir. 2 Q. I am going to approach and show you Government Exhibit 3 4078. And again, did you have a chance prior to coming to 4 court to review that evidence? 5 A. Yes, sir, I did. 6 Q. Is that the ripped t-shirt that we're seeing in that 7 photo, 4007? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. And again, other than any cuttings or marks that were done 10 by the lab, is that in substantially the same condition it was 11 when you picked it up? 12 A. That's correct. 13 MR. GARCIA: We offer Government Exhibit 4078. 14 THE COURT: Received. 15 (Government Exhibit 4078 received in evidence) 16 BY MR. GARCIA: 17 Q. If we could go to 4008, photograph. 18 Again, Agent, first, if you could tell us what is 19 there and where it is. 20 A. It's basically as you are going down around the corner, 21 and what it is was a shirt and sweat pants and I believe it 22 was a pair of underpants underneath. 23 Q. If you could again indicate for us on the diagram 24 approximately where that was. 25 A. Yes. I believe it's going to be like right outside of 7877 1 Cell No. 5 in the hallway, right about there. 2 Q. That corner between Cell 5 and what's marked "recreation" 3 on the diagram? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And if I could approach with Government Exhibits 4075, 6 4079 and 4064. And again, Agent, prior to coming to court did 7 you have a chance to look at those items? 8 A. Yes, sir, I did. 9 Q. And starting with 4075, what is that? 10 A. This was the gray sweat pants as you see in Government 11 Exhibit 4008. 12 Q. And 4079? 13 A. It's the brown underpants. 14 Q. And 4064? 15 A. 4064, if you look in Government Exhibit 4008, it's going 16 to be in the bottom right-hand corner. You just barely see 17 it. 18 Q. And it's indicated on the bottom right, as you said, on 19 the edge of that photograph. 20 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, at this time the government 21 would offer 4064, 4075 and 4079. 22 MR. RUHNKE: No objection. 23 THE COURT: Received. 24 (Government Exhibits 4064, 4075 and 4079 received in 25 evidence) 7878 1 MR. GARCIA: If we could have Government Exhibit 2 4009. 3 Q. If you again could show us where the view we are seeing 4 here on the diagram? 5 A. Yes, sir. It's going to be approximately right over here 6 where the lieutenant's office is. That's going to be the 7 opening doorway on the left-hand corner of the photograph, 8 approximately right about there. 9 Q. The doorway to the lieutenant's office where the arrow is 10 pointing right now? 11 A. I don't see an arrow, but, yes, the lieutenant's office is 12 off to the left. 13 MR. GARCIA: And 4010. If we could have the diagram 14 on the bottom. Thanks. 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And again, Agent, what are we seeing here? 17 A. This is basically a photograph which was taken right about 18 where it says "lab library," shooting down towards the 19 direction of Cell No. 6, with Cell No. 6 being off to the 20 left-hand side. 21 Q. And 4011, what is that? 22 A. That's basically the same photograph, but it's taken about 23 five feet closer than the last one. The camera again is 24 taking a picture of the hallway outside of Cell No. 6. 25 Q. And 4012? 7879 1 A. Again, this is a closer-up of the last two photographs. 2 It is the hallway directly across from the exterior side of 3 Cell No. 6. 4 Q. I'm going to bring up for you 4092 and 4093, and while I 5 do that I will take some of this. 6 Do you recognize that? 7 A. Yes, sir, I do. 8 Q. What do you have there, what is 4092 and 4093? 9 A. Government Exhibit 4093 is the upper portion of a Motorola 10 MT1000 radio, and the bottom portion is the battery component 11 for that radio. 12 Q. Are those the items we are seeing -- well, the top part of 13 the radio in 4012? 14 A. Yes, sir. You can see the top part of the radio in about 15 the center span of Government Exhibit 4012. Government 16 Exhibit 4092, you can't actually see it in this photograph, 17 but that stand that is located right in the center, that's a 18 portable telephone. The battery was located underneath that 19 stand. 20 MR. GARCIA: At this time, your Honor, the government 21 offers 4029 and -93. 22 MR. RUHNKE: No objection. 23 THE COURT: Received. 24 (Government Exhibits 4029 and 4093 received in 25 evidence) 7880 1 MR. GARCIA: And if we could put up 4025. 2 Q. Where is that photograph taken? 3 A. Again, this is going to be in the hallway across from Cell 4 No. 6. This is going to be that bloody sock and that sneaker 5 is located where it says "electrical." It's right there in 6 the corner where that door is. 7 Q. I'm going to show you 4063 and ask you if you recognize 8 that. 9 A. Yes, sir, I do. This is the item that's depicted in 10 Government Exhibit 4025. 11 MR. GARCIA: And the government offers 4062. 12 MR. RUHNKE: No objection. 13 THE COURT: Received. 14 (Government Exhibit 4062 received in evidence) 15 Q. If we could go to 4029. Could you describe where that 16 photograph is taken? 17 A. Again, this is a close-up photograph in the hallway 18 directly across from the door leading into Cell No. 6. 19 Q. I'm going to show you what has been marked 4042, and could 20 you tell us what that item is in your hand, 4042? 21 A. Yes, sir. This is a part of a comb that we had found 22 across from Cell No. 6's door in the hallway. 23 Q. And that's the item depicted in photograph 4029? 24 A. That's correct, sir. 25 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, the government offers 4042. 7881 1 THE COURT: Received. 2 (Government Exhibit 4042 received in evidence) 3 BY MR. GARCIA: 4 Q. Agent, if you could, with the gloves, take that item out 5 of the envelope and hold it up for us. 6 A. (Witness complies) 7 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, I don't ask to pass it, but 8 if I could just hold it by the jury. 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 Q. Thank you, Agent. If you could just return that to the 11 plastic bag. 12 MR. GARCIA: If we could put up on the screen 4013. 13 Q. What are we seeing here? 14 A. This is a shot of the outer portion door of Cell No. 6. 15 The door right now is open, so what you are looking at is the 16 interior part of Cell 6's door. 17 Q. Now, 4014, what are we seeing here, Agent? 18 A. This is a photograph of two honey bear containers that 19 were located against the wall in the hallway of Cell 6 behind 20 the door. 21 Q. So we're clear, this is outside the cell? 22 A. That is correct. 23 Q. And I'm going to show you Government Exhibit 4044. Again, 24 did you have a chance to look at those items before you came 25 to court today? 7882 1 A. Yes, sir, I did. 2 Q. Are those the two honey bear bottles that we are seeing in 3 Government Exhibit 4012? 4 A. That's correct, sir. 5 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, we offer 4044. 6 THE COURT: Received. 7 (Government Exhibit 4044 received in evidence) 8 MR. GARCIA: If we could take the diagram and that 9 photo off and put up Government Exhibit 4015. 10 Q. Could you tell us what we're seeing here? 11 A. Yes, sir. This is an interior shot of Cell No. 6, with 12 the camera actually being out in the hallway going into the 13 cell. 14 Q. Agent, during the course of your processing the crime 15 scene, did you label -- well, withdrawn. 16 You see two beds in that room? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Could you describe where they are located for us? 19 A. Yes. The first bed we labeled for our investigation as 20 bed number 1. This is going to be the first bed that you see 21 alongside of the window. 22 Q. To the right as you are coming in? 23 A. Yes, sir, that's correct. The bed at the far wall at the 24 end of the cell, we labeled that as bed number 2. 25 Q. And if we could go to Government Exhibit -- wait for one 7883 1 moment. 2 On the floor here in the front there are some white 3 items, which we'll look at closer, I believe, later. Could 4 you tell us generally what they are? 5 A. Yes, sir. They are pieces of cotton material believed to 6 be from sheets that were ripped into strips. 7 Q. If we could see 4017. 8 Agent, generally, could you describe what we are 9 seeing? 10 A. Yes. This is basically a closer-up of the last government 11 exhibit going into the cell, basically of all the items on the 12 floor. 13 Q. I'm going to show you what has been marked 4043. Those 14 items, do you recognize them? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And what are they? 17 A. Again, these are two of those honey bear containers. 18 Q. And so we are clear, those aren't shown in the photograph, 19 correct? 20 A. No, sir. These were actually obtained, you see where the 21 toilet is, they were actually behind the toilet area between 22 the toilet and the chair in the back of the toilet area. 23 Q. I'm going to approach with 4087. I won't ask you to take 24 this out of the bag, but if you could just tell us if you have 25 seen that, examined that item prior to coming to court? 7884 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And what is that? 3 A. If you look at Government Exhibit 4017, this is the orange 4 jumpsuit that you see in front of the commode, laying there on 5 the floor. 6 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, at this time we offer 4043, 7 the honey bear bottles, and 4087, the jumpsuit. 8 MR. RUHNKE: No objection. 9 THE COURT: Received. 10 (Government Exhibits 4043 and 4087 received in 11 evidence) 12 BY MR. GARCIA: 13 Q. And if we could go to 4034, where is this view? 14 A. Again, this is going to be in the cell, Cell No. 6. If 15 you look in the bottom left-hand corner, you can see the lip 16 of the commode or the toilet right there, and that is a, it's 17 a prayer rug between the commode and a chair that was bolted 18 down to the floor. 19 Q. If we could go to 4018, is that the area shown that you 20 were just speaking about? 21 A. Yes, sir, that's correct. 22 Q. Again, these items center, lower center of the photograph, 23 white and orange, what were they? 24 A. White and orange? 25 Q. Yes. 7885 1 A. The orange pieces of material appear to have been like 2 cuffs or sleeves that were possibly pulled off an orange-type 3 jumpsuit, and the white garments in there are clothing. 4 Q. The item of furniture on the left-hand wall past the 5 chair, what is that? 6 A. I'm sorry, sir? The items of -- 7 Q. On the left-hand wall past the chair that you described 8 earlier, was that part of the wall? In fact, is that a desk? 9 A. Yes, sir. It's a concrete desk and chair that are not 10 movable. They are permanent items there in the cell. 11 Q. During the course of your examination of the crime scene, 12 did you look underneath the desk? 13 A. I did, sir. 14 Q. And if we could have Government Exhibit 4039, could you 15 tell us what that is? 16 A. Yes, sir. Underneath the desk itself were scrape marks 17 that appeared to be black and white in color. It was 18 underneath the portion of the desk that wasn't painted. 19 Q. As you looked at those marks underneath the desk, what 20 direction were they going in? 21 A. Basically back and forth, so it would be going from the 22 interior of the cell towards the cell wall. 23 Q. So from the front of the desk to the wall? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. And I would like to show you Government Exhibits 4080 7886 1 through 4086. Have you had a chance to look at those before 2 coming to court today? 3 A. I did, sir. 4 Q. Are those the orange and white strips that you described 5 for us earlier in the cell? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, at this time we would offer 8 Government Exhibits 4080 through 4086. 9 THE COURT: Received. 10 (Government Exhibits 4080 through 4086 received in 11 evidence) 12 BY MR. STERN: 13 Q. If you would, using the gloves, Agent, could you just hold 14 up 4082 for us and display it. 15 A. (Witness complies) 16 Q. Again, those markings weren't on it when you found it; is 17 that correct? 18 A. That's correct. 19 THE COURT: The black markings and circles and so on, 20 those were all added? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. They were added by the lab 22 personnel when they had done their presumptive tests. 23 BY MR. GARCIA: 24 Q. The other marks, the stains, those were on it when you 25 found it? 7887 1 A. That's correct. 2 THE COURT: All right. Is this a good place to 3 break? 4 MR. GARCIA: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: We'll take our midmorning recess at this 6 point. 7 We'll take a five-minute recess. 8 (Recess) 9 (Jury not present) 10 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor at 1:00 we would just like to 11 see you on some minor housekeeping-type matters. 12 (Jury enters) 13 LEONARD HATTON, resumes 14 THE COURT: You may proceed. 15 MR. GARCIA: Thank you, Judge. 16 BY MR. GARCIA: 17 Q. Agent, I'm showing you Government Exhibit 4090. Could you 18 just generally describe for us what that is? 19 A. Yes. This is a plastic wrap, like Saran Wrap, rolled into 20 a twine. 21 Q. And did you find the items in that Government Exhibit 4090 22 inside Cell 6? 23 A. Yes, sir. They were found on the floor alongside of the 24 center of the cell and over by the leg of the bed number 1. 25 Q. Over by bed number 1? 7888 1 A. Yes. 2 THE COURT: Would you hold them up? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 4 Q. Actually, Agent, using the glove, maybe take them out so 5 we can get a look at them outside the bag. 6 A. (Witness complies) 7 Q. Thank you. 8 If we could have displayed Government Exhibit 4019, 9 the photograph. What are we seeing here, Agent? 10 A. It's an identification badge over in the right-hand corner 11 from the Bureau of Prisons belonging to Mr. Pepe, and a set of 12 keys located right in the center of the photograph, Government 13 Exhibit 4019, right by the blue container. 14 Q. So we're clear, this is inside Cell 6? 15 A. That's correct, inside Cell 6 on the right-hand side as 16 you walk in through the door. 17 Q. And the Bureau of Prisons identification to the upper 18 right, if we can enlarge that a little bit, and you said that 19 name on that plate? 20 A. L. P-E-P-E. L. Pepe. 21 Q. If we can go back to the photograph. I'm going to show 22 you Government Exhibit 4048 and ask you if you recognize that. 23 A. Yes, sir. These are a set of keys that are displayed in 24 the Government Exhibit 4019 in the center of the photograph. 25 MR. GARCIA: The government offers 4048. 7889 1 MR. RUHNKE: No objection. 2 THE COURT: Yes, received. 3 (Government Exhibit 4048 received in evidence) 4 Q. Agent, if you look at Government Exhibit 4048, are there 5 small round metal circles on that chain? 6 A. That's correct, sir. 7 Q. And is there a name printed on those metal circles? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. And what is that? 10 A. L, and the last name of P-E-P-E. 11 MR. GARCIA: If we could display a photograph -- I'm 12 sorry. I offer Government Exhibit 4090, if I failed to do 13 that. 14 THE COURT: Yes, received. 15 (Government Exhibit 4090 received in evidence) 16 MR. GARCIA: If we could have 4311 scanned in. 17 Q. What is that, Agent Hatton? 18 A. This is a, again, another photograph on the interior of 19 Cell No. 6. This photograph is taken of our -- actually there 20 was a chair, a fiberglass or plastic chair and a concrete 21 block, a cinder block table. These are the condiments and 22 that was located between the chair and the concrete table. 23 MR. GARCIA: Is it possible to enlarge just the area 24 showing the food items? 25 Q. Agent, I'm going to approach you with what has been marked 7890 1 as Government Exhibit 4314, and could you tell us generally 2 what is 4314? 3 A. Yes. If you look in the photograph it's going to be the 4 red bottle which is probably, it's right about at 9:00 in the 5 photograph. It's like a hot sauce. 6 MR. GARCIA: And the government would offer that 7 exhibit. 8 MR. RUHNKE: No objection. 9 THE COURT: Received. 10 (Government Exhibit 4314 received in evidence) 11 BY MR. GARCIA: 12 Q. And is there a name, if you can read it, on the bag on 13 that hot sauce, the type? 14 A. Yes, it's Keefe's from Louisiana hot sauce. 15 Q. Thank you. 16 (Continued on next page) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7891 1 Q. Thank you. If we could have Government's Exhibit 4020, 2 what do we see here? 3 A. Again, this is a photograph in the interior of cell 6. It 4 is the photograph of a bed that was nearest the window. This 5 is the bed that we, for investigative purposes, labeled bed 6 number 1. 7 Q. I am going to hand you Government's Exhibit 4091. Do you 8 recognize those items? 9 A. Yes, sir. This is the glasses and the glass case that we 10 had picked up off of bed number 1. 11 MR. GARCIA: The government offers Exhibit 4091. 12 MR. RUHNKE: No objection. 13 THE COURT: Received. 14 (Government Exhibit 4091 received in evidence) 15 Q. If we could go to Government's Exhibit 4035. 16 First, Agent, what is it that we are seeing here? 17 A. Again, it is the plastic saran-wrap-type material that was 18 rolled up into a string-like device. 19 Q. What is the area that is depicted there? 20 A. This is a photograph taken on bed number 1. 21 Q. The bed we were looking at in the prior photograph? 22 A. That is correct. 23 Q. When you walked in to process the scene, could you see the 24 rope that you described on the bed? 25 A. No, sir. 7892 1 Q. Why not? 2 A. There was a garment on top of it and a prayer rug below 3 it. 4 Q. I am going to show you Government's Exhibit 4089. Do you 5 recognize 4089? 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 Q. What is that? 8 A. This is the item displayed in Government's Exhibit 4035, 9 plastic rope. 10 MR. GARCIA: The government offers 4089. 11 Q. If you would, Agent, hold a piece of that up for us. 12 Thank you. 13 THE COURT: Is that offered? 14 MR. GARCIA: Yes. 15 MR. RUHNKE: No objection. 16 THE COURT: Received. 17 (Government Exhibit 4089 received in evidence) 18 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, in addition to that exhibit, 19 if we could offer 4311, the photograph that I displayed of the 20 condiment. I am not sure if it was offered. I believe it was 21 not offered. 22 THE COURT: Received. 23 (Government Exhibit 4311 received in evidence) 24 Q. If we could display 4036. What is the area we are seeing 25 here? 7893 1 A. Again, for investigative purposes this is bed number 2. 2 This is the concrete wall between bed number 2 and the back of 3 cell number 6. 4 Q. So the far wall of the cell as you walk in? 5 A. That is correct. 6 Q. I am going to show you Government's Exhibit 4094. Do you 7 recognize that item? 8 A. Yes, sir, I do. 9 Q. What is that? 10 A. This is the comb that we obtained, Government's Exhibit 11 4036, in the center of the photograph. 12 MR. GARCIA: I will offer 4094. 13 Q. I will show you what is already in evidence as 14 Government's Exhibit 4092. Would you hold up 4094 and 4092 15 for us. 16 Do those appear to originally have been the same type 17 of item? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Agent, in your search of cell number 6 and your processing 20 of the crime scene, how many brushes like the one you see in 21 the photograph 4036 did you find, other than the sharp one? 22 A. We just found two brushes, the one shown in Government's 23 Exhibit 4036 and the one that was found outside of cell number 24 6 floor, which is Government's Exhibit 4042. 25 Q. If we could now see Government's Exhibit 4022A. 7894 1 THE COURT: I am not sure -- 4094 is? 2 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, it is the brush that was 3 found -- 4 THE COURT: Is the brush. And the other one is? 5 MR. GARCIA: 4042. 6 THE COURT: And they are both received. 7 (Government Exhibits 4042 and 4094 received in 8 evidence) 9 Q. Agent, can you tell us what we are seeing. 10 A. Government's Exhibit 4022A is a photograph of the camera 11 located in the back of cell number 6, in the upper left-hand 12 corner, directly above bed number 2. 13 Q. So as you walk in facing the cell, far left corner? 14 A. That is correct. 15 Q. Is this how it appeared to you when you first entered the 16 cell? 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q. If we could see 4022B. Is this a closeup of the same 19 photo we just saw? 20 A. It is, sir. 21 Q. And 4022C, what is this? 22 A. It's the same photograph of the camera but when I went and 23 did, there was some toilet paper you saw in the previous 24 exhibits. The toilet paper was removed, which was covering 25 the lens. We took another photograph of the camera without 7895 1 the toilet paper in the hole. 2 Q. If we could see 4023. What do we see there? 3 A. Again, this is an interior shot of cell number 6, although 4 it is a different camera angle. This is the interior of cell 5 6, with the camera angle lens pointing to the exit of cell 6's 6 door. 7 Q. If we could, if it is possible to enlarge the area by the 8 door. I am going to show you Government's Exhibit 4045 and 9 ask you if you recognize that? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. What is that of? 12 A. This is another one of those Busy Bee honey bottles. You 13 can see it right there in the left-hand corner of the cell, in 14 the left-hand corner of the photograph right next to the 15 plates of discarded food. 16 MR. GARCIA: The government offers 4045. 17 MR. RUHNKE: No objection. 18 THE COURT: Received. 19 (Government Exhibit 4045 received in evidence) 20 Q. If we can now go to 4034. Tell us the view that we are 21 seeing here. 22 A. Again, this is of a camera angle with the camera being 23 taken inside of cell number 6. On the left-hand side of the 24 photograph you can see the entrance or exit of cell number 6. 25 In the center portion of the photograph is the shower stall in 7896 1 cell number 6. 2 Q. What about the item at the bottom of the shower stall? 3 A. That was a Department of Corrections bureau tie and tie 4 classic. 5 Q. There appear to be some markings or stains on the shower? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Can you describe those. 8 A. Yes. You see in the photograph on the stainless steel, on 9 the bottom portion and in the interior of the cell and the 10 outer side, it was the same consistency and smell that was 11 found in some of those Honey Bear bottles. 12 Q. Can you describe the smell? 13 A. Yes. It was like a peppery tobasco sauce type of smell. 14 Q. If we could see Government's Exhibit 4032. Is that a 15 closeup of the item you were just describing? 16 A. Yes, sir. It is a better photograph. You can see the 17 contents, what appeared to be the same substance that was in 18 those bottles, again, on the stainless steel and on the base 19 of the shower floor. 20 Q. If we could see 4038. What is this, Agent? 21 A. This is going to be the interior side of cell number 6's 22 door. We had two substances found in that door, and again, if 23 you look at around 3:00 on that door, you can see some of the 24 substance that appeared to be of the same consistency and 25 smell as the items or the material that was found in the Honey 7897 1 Bear bottles. 2 Q. If we could enlarge the stain area on the door if that is 3 possible. Is that the area you are referring to, Agent? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. And 4027? And if you could, actually, if you could put up 6 Government's Exhibit 4000 with this one if that is possible, 7 and if you could show us the area that you are looking at, 8 that we are looking at. If you would, Agent, show us where on 9 Government's Exhibit 4000 the area depicted in Government's 10 Exhibit 4027 would be. 11 A. If you look on the schematic, in the upper right-hand 12 corner where it says the word electric, that's the door that 13 you see in Government's Exhibit 4027. That wall right there 14 in the ceiling is the wall that is right outside the 15 electrical door in the ceiling that you see in Government's 16 Exhibit 4027. 17 Q. And again, the consistency and the smell of the material 18 on that one? 19 A. Yes, sir. It was the same as the consistency and smell of 20 the material that was found in those Honey Bear bottle items. 21 Q. And the walls inside the cell? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. Did you take a sample of the material on that wall, Agent? 24 A. Yes, I did. I believe it was sample number 7. 25 Q. I show you what has been marked as Government's Exhibit 7898 1 4310. Is that the sample you were referring to? 2 A. Yes, it is. 3 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, the government offers 4310. 4 MR. RUHNKE: No objection. 5 THE COURT: Received. 6 (Government Exhibit 4310 received in evidence) 7 Q. If we could now see Government's Exhibit 4028. What is 8 the view here, Agent? 9 A. This is with the camera being outside of cell number 6, 10 pointing up above the door of cell number 6 and capturing part 11 of the wall, exterior wall of cell 6 and the ceiling. 12 Q. Were there stains on this wall? 13 A. Yes, there were. 14 Q. Were those the same types of stains as on the opposite 15 wall? 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. If we could go to 4037. What do we see here? 18 A. It is an electrical conduit box located outside in the 19 hallway of cell number 6, on the ceiling. 20 Q. If we could have Government's Exhibit 4000 put back up, 21 with this. If you could just show us the general area on 4000 22 the junction box, as best you recall? 23 A. If you look at the interior-exterior door of cell number 24 6, if you go out probably 2 or 3 feet from that door and down 25 about 4 feet, you can see the electrical box would be on the 7899 1 ceiling. It would be there in that hallway. 2 Q. So in the area going by where it says telephone and lab 3 area, in that area? 4 A. Yes, sir. If you look at 4037, you get a better 5 representation. You can see where the door is for cell number 6 6. 7 Q. In the lower left-hand corner of the photograph? 8 A. In the lower left-hand corner, yes, sir. 9 Q. You mentioned that you also seized documents during a cell 10 search, is that correct? 11 A. Yes, sir, we did. 12 Q. Can you describe the procedure of taking those documents 13 from the cell. 14 A. We perceived a number of documents in the cell. Later on, 15 we got a search warrant and we went into the cell and took out 16 the documents that we found in the cell. A large majority of 17 the documents were already in containers or envelopes. Those 18 that weren't in containers or envelopes we placed into bags, 19 and then we brought everything back to our office and it was 20 turned over to the case people who were responsible for going 21 through those items. 22 Q. Prior to coming to court, did you prepare an exhibit 23 showing a number of the locations that you just testified 24 about? 25 A. Yes. I made up two exhibits, I believe. 7900 1 Q. The one showing the location of the photographs, 2 Government's Exhibit 4000P, is that this exhibit here? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. Does that fairly and accurately reflect the areas that the 5 photographs were taken that are marked by exhibit number? 6 A. Yes, it does. 7 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, at this time we would offer 8 4000P. 9 MR. RUHNKE: No objection. 10 THE COURT: Received. 11 (Government Exhibit 4000P received in evidence) 12 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, if we could see stand over 13 here so we can see. 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MR. GARCIA: With the court's permission, if the 16 agent could step down. 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 Q. Agent, if you could just show us generally how this 19 diagram and how the photographs correspond to this exhibit. 20 A. Government's Exhibit 4003 is a photograph as you walk into 21 cell F1, basically shown right here. 22 Government's Exhibit 4004, I was standing here when 23 this photograph was taken as represented by the arrow, 24 captioned down here. This blood spilled on the floor is 25 basically across from cell number 1. 7901 1 Government's Exhibit 4005 is basically a photograph 2 that was taken in this area, capturing this corner right here, 3 and showing the hallway going on down. 4 These smear marks on the wall as shown in 5 Government's Exhibit 4006 was basically taken here, going down 6 in a northerly direction with these marks being located here 7 on this wall. 8 Government's Exhibit 4007, which was the brown shirt 9 that we talked about earlier, and we have blood marks here on 10 the floor, was basically taken right here. This door right 11 here represented in the diagram is actually this door right 12 here, with the second door being this door. 13 Government's Exhibit 4009 again is another photograph 14 taken here in the hallway across from the lieutenant's office 15 shown here in the diagram. This is the office door right 16 here. 17 Going up here, Government's Exhibit 4022A is the 18 camera that was located inside of cell number 6 directly above 19 the bed that we labeled number 2, which was the bed on the far 20 wall. 21 Q. That would be in this corner right here? 22 A. That is correct. 23 Government's Exhibit 4023 is an interior shot of cell 24 number 6 with the camera being here, taking a photograph going 25 in this direction. As you can see, the chair, you have the 7902 1 chair right here and the chair and table right here. 2 Government's Exhibit 4020, this is for investigative 3 purposes the bed that we said is bed number 1, showing you the 4 glasses, the prayer rug, and underneath the prayer rug was the 5 rope that we talked about before, or the plastic twine. 6 Again, here is bed number 1, here is a window that was locked 7 right here. 8 Government's Exhibit 4018, again is an interior shot 9 of cell number 6, capturing basically the chair right here 10 with the camera actually pointed in other southerly direction, 11 the camera angle going there way. 12 The concrete table we spoke about earlier before 13 inside of cell number 6, these strafe marks again which were 14 black and white in color were found underneath this portion of 15 the table with these scratch marks going back in a pattern, 16 going from the inner portion of the cell, going back towards 17 the wall, and there were similar marks going back and forth. 18 Government's Exhibit 4024, again it is an interior 19 shot of the cell, with the camera basically pointing, going in 20 a little bit of a southerly direction -- I am sorry -- yes, 21 southerly direction -- or northerly direction -- no, northerly 22 direction. It was taken right about from here, and again it 23 captured the shower, that you can see. 24 Government's Exhibit 4015, again it's another shot of 25 the cell. The camera was out in the hallway number 6, 7903 1 directly outside the door, with the shot going into cell 2 number 6. 3 Government's Exhibit 4011 is a shot in the hallway 4 going down towards cell number 6, with cell number 6's door 5 being off to the left-hand side, and if you could just see 6 down here in the corner, that was two of those Honey Bear 7 containers were located right here. The comb that was filed 8 down was located right there, and as you can see, the portion 9 of the radio. 10 In Government's Exhibit 4010, again it's just another 11 shot taking taken back further, taken about 5 feet back 12 further from the shot right here. 13 Q. Thank you, Agent. Did you also prepare another exhibit 14 using the schematic diagram that shows the location of certain 15 of the exhibits that you recovered and items of clothing as 16 well as blood samples that you took? 17 A. Yes, sir, we did. 18 Q. Is that this exhibit? 19 A. It is. 20 Q. Does that fairly and accurately represent the approximate 21 areas of those items were recovered? 22 A. It does, sir. 23 MR. GARCIA: The government would offer Government's 24 Exhibit 4000-E. 25 MR. RUHNKE: No objection. 7904 1 THE COURT: Received. 2 (Government Exhibit 4000-E received in evidence) 3 Q. First let's do the color code here. Red dots represent? 4 A. Blood samples, or what I perceived to be blood located on 5 the floors or walls. 6 Q. In several locations during the course of your search, did 7 you take swabbings or samples of that material? 8 A. Yes, I did. One thing I want to note, where I took these 9 samples, there were other items that I believed were blood 10 that we didn't take samples. 11 Q. You took 11 samples? 12 A. Yes, I believe 11. 13 Q. The green dots represent clothing? 14 A. That is correct. 15 Q. The blue dots again with the GX number on them represent 16 other exhibits? 17 A. Yes, basically hard item type exhibits. 18 Q. Now the yellow dots, the dot here labeled sample 7, is 19 that the sample you testified about earlier on this far wall? 20 A. Yes, sir, that had the same consistency, the materials had 21 the same consistency and smell as the material that was 22 located in some of those Honey Bear bottles. 23 Q. Again, the four other yellow dots that do not have a 24 sample number in them, what do these represent? 25 A. Basically this one right here is representative of the 7905 1 stain that was found above cell 6 number door on the exterior 2 side, on the hallway side. These dots right here are 3 representative of the material that was found in the honey 4 bottles on the wall, on the shower stall, the shower floor, 5 and the other side of the shower. 6 Q. Thank you. Agent, I think when we were speaking and 7 possibly describing the diagram, you mentioned a comb found in 8 the hallway. Is that a comb or brush that was found outside 9 cell 6? 10 A. It used to be a brush. Now it is basically more of a 11 shank. 12 Q. That would be Government's Exhibit 4042 that you were 13 referring to? 14 A. That is correct. That is correct. 15 MR. GARCIA: I have nothing further, Judge. 16 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I am wondering if I could 17 get the physical items that were out displayed back on the 18 table, returned back to the table. 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 Q. Agent. 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. RUHNKE: 23 Q. Agent, you testified about finding some homemade 24 string-like objects or rope-like material that to you appeared 25 to have been made from rolled up saran wrap; is that correct? 7906 1 A. That is correct, sir. 2 Q. Did you see examples anywhere in your search of 10 South 3 that day of how those items might have been utilized? 4 A. There was a sneaker, a blue sneaker located in the hallway 5 outside of cell number 6 that had some saran wrap wrapped 6 around the sneaker. 7 Q. I am making reference to Government's Exhibit 4063. May I 8 approach, your Honor? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 Q. Agent, is that the item that you are referring to? 11 A. Yes, sir, but during the time of the search this plastic 12 right here was around the sneaker, it wasn't on top. 13 Q. Would you mind putting the gloves on and just taking those 14 out. 15 A. Sure. 16 Q. Would you show to the jury how that was configured when 17 you found it in the hallway. 18 A. All right, sir. I am not sure if the not was above it or 19 below it, but I know in one of the government exhibits there 20 is a photograph that has it. 21 Q. Did it appear to you that perhaps the material was used 22 to -- 23 A. It possibly could be used for that, yes, sir. 24 Q. Could we have Government's Exhibit 4014 displayed. Agent, 25 what we are looking at in Government's Exhibit 4014 are two of 7907 1 these Honey Bear bottles that you spoke of, correct? 2 A. That is correct, sir. 3 Q. The door that we are looking at is directly outside cell 4 number 6, and in fact what we are looking at is the actual 5 door to cell number 6; is that correct? 6 A. Yes, sir, that is correct. 7 Q. Could we split this with Exhibit 4000, please. Could we 8 highlight the area around cell number 6, please. 9 Agent, if we are looking at the door to cell number 10 6, assuming the door to cell number 6 was open to the degree 11 now shown in Government's Exhibit 4014, the photograph, what 12 we are looking at is the corner that abuts onto the area 13 called lab library on the diagram? 14 A. Yes, sir. If you look at the diagram, the diagram is off 15 by a little bit. The wall should actually be up a little 16 further. The corner represented in Government's Exhibit 4014, 17 with the two bear bottles on the floor, is actually a 18 representation of the library here. 19 Q. To be a hundred percent clear, could we highlight that 20 corner area. We are talking about the corner on the lower 21 left-hand portion of that now displayed, correct? 22 A. That is correct, sir. Again, in the diagram, when this 23 door opens here, in the picture it wouldn't be going to the 24 corner. But in all actuality, if that door were to swing all 25 the way back, it would be almost a foot from the corner. 7908 1 Q. So the diagram is a little off in the way it measures the 2 door, for example? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. In the Honey Bear bottle shown in Government's Exhibit 5 4014, again, that's the way you found them when you arrived on 6 the scene? 7 A. Those two bottles, yes, sir. 8 Q. Were there any other Honey Bear bottles found outside of 9 cell number 6? 10 A. I believe we found three other bottles on the interior of 11 the cell. 12 Q. And none were found outside cell 6, were they? 13 A. Other than these two. 14 Q. You displayed a photograph before, the government 15 displayed a photograph -- I won't display it again -- of some 16 what appeared to be Louisiana hot sauce on the ceiling area of 17 the electrical closet outside cell number 6, is that correct? 18 A. That is correct. 19 Q. Again, that was a material that you actually sampled in 20 the sense of taking a swab and submitting to the lab, correct? 21 A. Yes, sir. I believe that was sample number 7. 22 Q. It was the lab that made the ultimate chemical 23 determination as to what that substance was, correct? 24 A. That is correct, sir. 25 Q. You are not a chemist but as you tell us, it looked the 7909 1 same and smelled the same, correct? 2 A. That is correct, sir. 3 Q. From your observations, you drew the conclusion, did you 4 not, that the hot sauce spattered in that ceiling area had 5 been sprayed from the doorway of cell number 6, correct? 6 A. In the general vicinity, yes, sir. 7 Q. In fact, those two Honey Bear bottles that we are looking 8 at on 4014 were also found in that exact same area, correct, 9 by the doorway to cell number 6? 10 A. On the outside of the cell, yes, sir. 11 Q. Can we also display Government's Exhibit 4012, full 12 screen. Sir, depicted in Exhibit 4012 are some items. Am I 13 correct that those are right outside the entranceway to cell 14 number 6 and in fact the door we are seeing in the lower 15 left-hand corner is cell number 6? 16 A. That is correct, sir. 17 Q. There are broken pieces of plexiglass? 18 A. That is correct. 19 Q. And a frame that went with it? 20 A. That is correct. 21 Q. Did you take any swabbings from the plexiglass? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Is there anything in your report or observations that says 24 hot sauce was recovered on any of those items? 25 A. No, sir. 7910 1 Q. You also testified that you recovered certain documents, 2 correct? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. May I have Government's Exhibit 4051A. I don't know if it 5 has been offered yet. 6 MR. GARCIA: It has not, Judge. 7 MR. RUHNKE: Does the government have any objection 8 to my now displaying it to the jury? 9 Let me then ask a foundation question. You testified 10 that you recovered certain documents in the initial search; is 11 that right? 12 A. Yes, sir, that is correct. 13 Q. What documents did you personally recover in the initial 14 search? 15 A. I believe there were some receipts from the Metropolitan 16 Correctional Facility that we had gotten under bed number 1, 17 if I recall right, and I believe there may have been one or 18 two documents on the table. I have to look at the log. If 19 you want to give me a second, I can look. 20 Q. Yes, if you have your log and that refreshes your 21 recollection, absolutely. 22 A. Yes, sir, there was a document, item 51 on the evidence 23 recovery log. There was a receipt from the Department of 24 Corrections. It was an exchange receipt. That was located 25 under the mattress of bed number 1. 7911 1 Q. Are there any other documents that were seized during that 2 initial crime scene at cell 6? 3 A. No, sir. We took some photographs of some documents that 4 were up on a wall but we didn't actually seize them until the 5 search warrant was obtained. 6 Q. Were you involved in the execution and gathering of 7 documents during the search warrant? 8 A. Yes, sir, I seized all the documents. I was responsible 9 for seizing them all. 10 Q. Let me display a particular document. Could we have 11 Government's Exhibit 4051A, and does the government object to 12 my now showing it to the jury and the agent? 13 MR. GARCIA: Yes. 14 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, you object? 15 MR. GARCIA: Yes. 16 MR. RUHNKE: Let me just display it to counsel and 17 not the jury then. 18 Q. I am looking at a document. You are looking at a 19 document. Is that a document that you collected and saw 20 during the time of the search warrant? 21 A. We seized it during the search warrant and I looked at it 22 afterwards. 23 Q. So it is a document that you seized? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Where did the document come from? 7912 1 A. I don't recall exactly where it came from. It came from 2 inside cell number 6. 3 Q. There were a lot of things inside cell number 6, is that 4 correct? 5 A. There sure were, sir. 6 THE COURT: I take it there will be another witness 7 that will deal with these? 8 MR. GARCIA: The next witness. 9 Q. Did you seize that document? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. You yourself? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. I ask you again, where did you seize it from? 14 A. I really don't know. There was many, 78 boxes and 15 containers. 16 Q. Was it a document that was in plain view? 17 A. I don't remember off the top of my head, sir. 18 Q. Do you have a log or other document that would refresh 19 your recollection as to where that was seized from? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. Display to the agent 4053A, agent and counsel only. 22 Again, another document that you are looking at, did 23 you seize that document personally? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Where did you seize it from? 7913 1 A. Again, inside of cell number 6. 2 Q. But you can't tell us where? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. Was there another agent with you who was writing down the 5 exact location where everything was seized? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Who would that agent be? 8 A. On that occasion in cell number 6, I believe it was S.A. 9 Kevin -- no, that was during the search. Can I look at my 10 log, just to be a hundred percent sure? 11 Q. Yes, sir, absolutely. 12 A. It should have been S.A. J. Pontrelli. 13 Q. Who seized that item? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. Who assisted you in the seizure, is that correct? 16 A. He was responsible for writing it down in the log. 17 Q. Where exactly each item was seized? 18 A. A lot of the items were in a container and there may have 19 been hundreds of documents in there. So seized one container 20 with documents. 21 Q. There appear in a photograph two blue containers one on 22 top of the other. Are those the containers you are referring 23 to? 24 A. There were other containers that were blue. I believe 25 there were some above bed number 1, I believe there were some 7914 1 over the toilet, and I believe there were a lot of boxes, I 2 don't know what the colors were, underneath the beds. 3 Q. Do you remember a document that begins with the words we 4 are the Muslims falsely accused? 5 A. I remember photographing that, yes, sir. 6 Q. Some of the documents we are talking about, many of the 7 documents that were seized and are going to be offered in 8 evidence are in what appear to be Arabic writing, correct? 9 A. I don't know Arabic, sir. It's a foreign language to me. 10 Q. It did not look to be like Roman letters, correct? 11 A. That is true. 12 Q. But the document that I am describing right now as we are 13 the Muslims falsely accused was in English, correct? 14 A. I remember some of the documents being in English, yes, 15 sir. 16 Q. Are you able to tell the jury, tell us where that document 17 was found? 18 A. No, sir. Just, inside the interior of cell number 6, in 19 one of the containers that was seized. 20 Q. Just to make sure that I get the mechanics correct, after 21 you executed the search warrant, did you then go to cell 22 number 6, remain in cell number 6, or did you basically take 23 the boxes back to 26 Federal Plaza and deal with them there? 24 A. At the end of the search we took all the materials out, 25 put them in the hallway, finished our paperwork, loaded the 7915 1 stuff into vehicles and brought it to 26 Federal Plaza, where 2 it was put in the evidence room on the 28th floor. 3 Q. Do you know who the agent was who swore to the search 4 warrant? 5 A. No, sir, I don't. 6 Q. It was not you though? 7 A. No, sir, it wasn't. 8 Q. So the best you can tell us about these documents at this 9 point is that you yourself do not know where particularly they 10 were seized, correct? 11 A. No, only to say that they came from cell number 6 in one 12 of the various containers. 13 Q. But they were not among the plain view documents that you 14 seized, correct? 15 A. I don't recall them being in plain view, no, sir. 16 Q. You made reference earlier, and I am trying to find the 17 exhibit right now, of seeing a sneaker in the hallway that 18 illustrated the point -- I would ask that Exhibit 4025 be 19 displayed. I do not know if it is in evidence. 20 MR. GARCIA: Yes, it is. 21 Q. Again, you still have it in front of you, the sneaker and 22 the twisted up rope that you referred to? 23 A. That is correct, sir. 24 Q. Does that show actually how it was found? 25 A. That is correct, sir. 7916 1 Q. Where are we looking? What area of 10 South are we 2 looking at? 3 A. Out in the hallway directly across from cell number 6's 4 door there is an electrical door, as you can see in the 5 photograph, the hinge. It was located right there in the 6 hallway, in the corner. 7 Q. Agent, I am going to show you this summary chart that the 8 government has offered into evidence and has been accepted 9 into evidence. Can you look at this chart for me -- if you 10 don't mind just stepping down for a moment. 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Can you just point out for us where the sneaker is in the 13 photograph? 14 A. Yes, sir. If you look at the green dot, 4063, 4063. 15 Q. You are indicating by the door to the electrical closet? 16 A. Yes. It is actually on the far wall, and the hinge for 17 the door would be right about here. 18 Q. Just as a matter of record, although this guide here shows 19 every single one of the doors open, the door to the electrical 20 closet, for example, was not open on the day that you 21 inspected it, is that right? 22 A. No, sir, it was locked. 23 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you. You may resume the stand. I 24 have no further questions. 25 THE COURT: Any redirect? 7917 1 MR. GARCIA: Very briefly. If we could have 4014, 2 Government's Exhibit, put back up on the screen. 3 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 4 BY MR. GARCIA: 5 Q. You recall Mr. Ruhnke asking you questions about this 6 photograph? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. If it is possible, could we enlarge just the area that 9 shows the two bottles. I am going to put in front of you 10 another photograph. Mr. Ruhnke also asked you some questions 11 about a plexiglass shield. Do you recall that? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. There was broken shield on the floor, is that right? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. He asked you if you had taken any swabs of that. 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. Looking at Government's Exhibit 4014, in the area, you 18 identified the two Honey Bear bottles -- and you might be able 19 to see it more clearly. Does that appear to be a piece of the 20 plexiglass? 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. You didn't take a swabbing of that plexiglass, did you? 23 A. No, sir. 24 MR. GARCIA: Nothing further. 25 MR. RUHNKE: Actually, one question. 7918 1 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. RUHNKE: 3 Q. Did you observe that tiny piece of broken plexiglass? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Did you see any reason to take a swabbing from it? 6 A. No, sir. 7 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you. 8 MR. GARCIA: Nothing. 9 (Witness excused) 10 THE COURT: The government may call its next witness. 11 MR. GARCIA: The government calls Joseph Foelsch. 12 JOSEPH D. FOELSCH, JR., 13 called as a witness by the government, 14 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 15 DIRECT EXAMINATION 16 BY MR. GARCIA: 17 Q. Agent Foelsch, you work with the FBI? 18 A. Yes, I do. 19 Q. About how long have you been with the FBI? 20 A. I have been with the bureau for 11 years, seven of those 21 as an agent. 22 Q. What squad are you assigned to? 23 A. I am assigned to squad C31, which does special 24 jurisdiction crimes. 25 Q. That would include crimes committed inside federal 7919 1 prisons? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did there come a time that you were assigned to the 4 investigation of an attack on Officer Pepe at the Metropolitan 5 Correctional Center? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What day did you first become involved in that 8 investigation? 9 A. November 1, 2000. 10 Q. Did you report to 10 South at the MCC that day? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. Was a search conducted of cell number 6 of the 10 South 13 unit on November 1? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Were you present when a search was going on? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Generally, what was your role there? 18 A. At the time I was just observing the search. I did not 19 participate in it. I was watching it. 20 Q. When the search was completed, what did you do? 21 A. When the search was completed, all the articles that were 22 taken during the search were put into bins and boxes and 23 containers and they were taken across the street to our office 24 at 26 Federal Plaza. 25 Q. Did you accompany those bins and boxes from the MCC back 7920 1 to your office? 2 A. Yes, I did. 3 Q. After the bins were deposited into the FBI office, did 4 they remain in custody there? 5 A. Yes, they did. 6 Q. Did there come a time that you personally reviewed the 7 items that were contained in the various bins? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. In the process of doing that, did you separate various 10 documents from those bins? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. From the time that they were removed from the MCC to the 13 time you did your review of the containers, were they 14 constantly in the care of the FBI? 15 A. Yes, they were. 16 Q. Prior to coming to court, did you have an occasion to view 17 documents numbered 4050, 51, 52, 53, 54 and 55? 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 Q. Are those documents documents that you personally removed 20 from the containers that you just described for us? 21 A. Yes. 22 MR. GARCIA: At this time, Judge, the government 23 would offer those, 4050, 51, 52, 53, 54 and 55, and I will put 24 those in front of you. 25 MR. RUHNKE: Actually, may I see those, please. 7921 1 Thank you. 2 THE COURT: They are received. 3 (Government Exhibits 4050 through 4055 received in 4 evidence) 5 Q. Agent, are those generally the documents that we were just 6 talking about? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Is it fair to say that two of the documents appear to be 9 written in English and the other four in Arabic? 10 A. Two of them are written in English. The other four are 11 written in what I think is Arabic, yes. 12 (Continued on next page) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7922 1 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, before we get into these 2 documents, this would be a good time to break. 3 THE COURT: We will break for lunch and we will 4 resume at 2:15. 5 (Jury excused) 6 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we had just five minutes of 7 housekeeping. 8 THE COURT: In open court? 9 MR. RUHNKE: It doesn't matter. 10 Your Honor, the government is just making sure that I 11 am not going to say something that should be under seal, and I 12 don't intend to. 13 First, I have had a conversation with Mr. Fitzgerald 14 for several days, actually for about a week, trying to locate 15 a witness from the Bureau of Prisons to testify, rather than 16 issuing subpoenas in a broad way. We haven't gotten very far 17 and it is not for lack of trying of Mr. Fitzgerald, but I am 18 going to be to a point where I may have to come to your Honor 19 just to issue subpoenas and bring people in and deal with it 20 that way. 21 I still have not gotten an answer from the government 22 on a query as to why in the indictment it says Salim stabbed 23 the officer with the former hair brush sharpened to a 24 shank-type instrument that is now in evidence. 25 THE COURT: When does the government believe it will 7923 1 be able to respond to that? 2 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, we can show you ex parte 3 the materials. There is no Brady -- the government does not 4 allege in the indictment that Salim attacked Officer Pepe with 5 the knife. The government alleges that Salim attacked a 6 responding officer with a weapon. 7 MR. RUHNKE: Right. That is important to us because 8 the weapon is lying in front of the hallway to cell number 6. 9 The government wants to be certain that it was Salim who 10 wielded it that will be put before the jury. 11 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, we can reveal in the 12 robing room what cannot be discussed in open court. 13 THE COURT: We will take up in the robing room 14 immediately after we finish whatever else is on your mind. 15 MR. RUHNKE: I have given the government this morning 16 a CNN Discovery Channel series on Yugoslavia called Death of a 17 Nation, and two of the episodes, each of which run 45 minutes, 18 have to deal with Bosnia and what occurred in Bosnia and what 19 occurred to the Muslim population in Bosnia. The government 20 is reviewing it, and based on our discussions there may be a 21 way of shortening the two 45-minute segments, but I do intend 22 to offer those with what comes into our case. 23 THE COURT: Is that with or without any claim that 24 K.K. Mohamed viewed the programs or viewed the things depicted 25 in the programs? 7924 1 MR. RUHNKE: It is exactly similar to the evidence 2 that was allowed in the earlier penalty phrase. In 3 Mr. Mohamed's statement to the FBI he repeatedly makes 4 reference to he thought he would be going to fight with 5 Muslims in Bosnia and that is why he was training in 6 Afghanistan. 7 THE COURT: I just wanted to be sure -- the short 8 answer, there is no claim that he had been to Bosnia or had 9 personally seen anything depicted in those programs? 10 MR. RUHNKE: That is right. 11 MR. FITZGERALD: Just so we are clear, your Honor, we 12 were just handed those this morning. We have not seen them. 13 I am not at all conceding that we won't object to them. I do 14 know there are some gory pictures that Mr. Ruhnke says could 15 be removed. That goes beyond the logical prior question. 16 We are waiting on clarification on what Mr. Ruhnke's 17 experts will testify to. We have been given general 18 descriptions of who they are but not the substance of their 19 expert testimony. We have been asking for that and we have 20 been asking for -- we thought we were going to get 3500 21 material five days before the witnesses testified. I also 22 know there are underlying notes. It sounds as though Mr. 23 Ruhnke's case will be starting Tuesday and we haven't got 24 that. 25 Part of the problem with coming up with a government 7925 1 witness, I was trying to have somebody to use as a government 2 witness who will testify in rebuttal. Not knowing what the 3 expert witness will say in the defense case, it is hard 4 finding that witness. Mr. Ruhnke said that he would like to 5 have that witness start on Tuesday, which is a new timing 6 matter. 7 THE COURT: Why is this such a mystery? You want a 8 Bureau of Prisons witness who will testify as to the 9 conditions of maximum security confinement? 10 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, sir. I tried to work this out with 11 the government. I could have come to your Honor a week ago 12 asking to bring in the warden. I didn't do that. I tried to 13 work it out with the government. I am not saying that Mr. 14 Fitzgerald has not reacted in good faith -- 15 THE COURT: Any reason why this could be resolved 16 tomorrow when we are not sitting? 17 MR. FITZGERALD: No, Judge. I will be calling the 18 Bureau of Prisons over lunch. There are people out in the 19 country. I think we were trying yesterday. 20 MR. RUHNKE: On the issue of expert reports, I had 21 told the government in a conversation yesterday, we had agreed 22 that Gerald Post, who is the former CIA analyst, that we would 23 have a much fuller statement of his testimony by tomorrow and 24 we intend to meet that commitment, and we will have 3500 25 material by tomorrow. The government has gotten a 38 or 7926 1 40-minute report from a mitigation specialist, has gotten a 2 general description of what Mark Cunningham is going to 3 testify to but has, I am sure, 20 transcripts of 4 Dr. Cunningham's testimony on similar issues. I don't think 5 the government would be either surprised or prejudiced by what 6 has been disclosed. 7 MR. FITZGERALD: We were surprised by the opening 8 where he says we will have two witnesses discussing remorse 9 with respect to Khalfan Khamis Mohamed. Knowing what he is 10 going to testify about, having a library available doesn't 11 really help. 12 MR. RUHNKE: Can we discuss the grand jury matter 13 then? 14 THE COURT: All right. Otherwise we are adjourned 15 until 2:15. 16 (Pages 7927-7942 sealed) 17 (Luncheon recess) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7943 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 2:15 p.m. 3 (Jury present) 4 JOSEPH FOELSCH, resumes. 5 THE COURT: Good afternoon. 6 THE JURY: Good afternoon. 7 THE COURT: The witnesses may resume the stand. 8 MR. GARCIA: Thank you, Judge. 9 BY MR. GARCIA: 10 Q. Agent Foelsch, I believe when we broke you were talking 11 about certain documents that you had recovered from the bins 12 in the search of Cell 6; is that correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. In front of you, are those again the documents that you 15 were referring to which are now in evidence? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And is it fair to say two have English writing and four 18 have what you believe to be Arabic? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. And I have also placed in front of you 4050-A. Is that a 21 photograph of the document 4050? 22 A. Yes, it is. 23 MR. GARCIA: I would offer 4050-A. 24 THE COURT: Received. 25 (Government Exhibit 4050-A received in evidence) 7944 1 MR. GARCIA: And if we could display 4050-A at this 2 time. 3 Q. It's a little wobbly there. Agent, if you could read it 4 for us. 5 A. Read it off of 4050-A here? 6 Q. Certainly. 7 A. "We are the Muslims who were accused falsely," and there's 8 a line from the word "falsely" to make it appear it should go 9 before "accused," "of bombing the embassy in Africa. We have 10 captured the tenth floor in MCC and we have several lawyers 11 and officials. They are under our full control. We were 12 forced to resort to this solution after we were deprived of 13 our legal rights. We request the immediate release of," and 14 then there's a space, "and send them outside the U.S. If the 15 government worries about the safety of its citizens, it has to 16 comply with all our demands, otherwise, it will be responsible 17 for any consequences." 18 Q. Agent, I believe you have in front of you a document 19 marked 4055. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. If you could just hold that up. On one side is that a 22 printed material? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And what does that appear to be? 25 A. A list of tapes, videotapes. 7945 1 Q. And on the other side is there some handwritten material? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. A handwritten line? 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. GARCIA: If we could display 4055, page 2. 6 Q. What does that say there? 7 A. I'm sorry? 8 Q. What does that say? 9 A. It says, one word at the top says "deprive" and then down 10 and over a little bit in parentheses are the words "of our 11 legal rights. 12 MR. GARCIA: "Your Honor, at this time I would like 13 to read and offer a stipulation. 14 "It is hereby stipulated by and between the parties 15 as follows: 16 "Government Exhibits 4051-A-T and 4051-B-T are fair 17 and accurate translations of Government Exhibit 4051-A and 18 4051-B, respectively. 19 "Government Exhibits 4052-A-T and 4052-B-T are fair 20 and accurate translations of Government Exhibit 4052-A and 21 4052-B, respectively. 22 "Government Exhibit 4053-A-T is a fair and accurate 23 translation of Government Exhibit 4053-A, and Government 24 Exhibits 4054-A-T and 4054-B-T are fair and accurate 25 translations of Government Exhibits 4054-A and 4054-B, 7946 1 respectively. 2 "It is further stipulated and agreed that this 3 stipulation may be received in evidence as a government 4 exhibit at trial." 5 And the government would offer the stipulation, which 6 is numbered Government Exhibit 4066, as well as the underlying 7 translations numbered as I described. 8 THE COURT: Received. 9 (Government Exhibits 4066, 4051-A-T, 4051-B-T, 10 4051-A, 4051-B, 4052-A-T, 4052-B-T, 4052-A, 4052-B, 4053-A-T, 11 4053-A, 4054-A-T, 4054-B-T, 4054-A, 4054-B received in 12 evidence) 13 MR. GARCIA: If we could now turn to Government 14 Exhibit 4051-A-T and display that. And if it's possible, 15 could we enlarge the page from the number 3267 down. 16 Q. Could you read that for us, Agent? 17 A. Yes. The top line says 3267 and it says it's circled, 18 talk, then something unintelligible, with Uthman. Then notes, 19 equal sign, the hunt, something unintelligible. Everything 20 except opening cans/boxes. Looks like there's a question mark 21 then the numbers 1293, 1292 equals placing things on the 22 counter. Then something unintelligible. 23 Fortification after being exposed. Then impractical, 24 table, door, something unintelligible, brooms and similar 25 items, fire extinguisher. Then under that is the room of the 7947 1 lieutenant, custodial room, the hunt, crossed out, placing 2 boxes near the door, tying one hand to the door of the, 3 something unintelligible. 4 Down is something crossed out, untying the knot, 5 unintelligible, leaving a note on the door stating it is open 6 and he is in the bathroom, unintelligible, in an official trip 7 to prove my innocence of the charges unjustly and unfairly 8 framed upon me by the Americans. And he needs to listen to 9 defense witnesses. Please facilitate his mission and 10 cooperate with him, and the number is 9753232 and 9822290. 11 And then written on the other side of the document is 12 dividing the work of the hunting, preparation, attack, 13 questioning, cooling, and having a sufficient number. It is 14 possible to spare the guard for the purpose of hunting. Since 15 the present is sufficient whereas the absent is on credit. 16 Over on the left-hand side it says scenario, 17 something unintelligible, crossed out, scenario, something 18 unintelligible, roof, and then next to that, not to rely on 19 the hunt because it's hypothetical. First to work when, 20 unintelligible, presence of a sufficient number. The 21 employees are better than the lawyers and the prisoners. 22 MR. GARCIA: And if we could now have displayed 23 4052-A-T. 24 Q. Again, Agent, could you read that? 25 A. Number one at the top. In the name of God. 7948 1 1. Correctness/safety of action/work (before, 2 something crossed out, during video, camera, eyewitnesses, 3 destroying, unintelligible, after and talk). 4 2. Informing all of the plan and its steps. 5 3. Division of labor and role sharing. 6 4. Time calculation for all stages. 7 5. Cooling methods. 8 6. Fortification methods. 9 7. Arming in the beginning of the action then in its 10 progress. 11 8. Subversion (after causing utmost injury to human 12 lives. Utmost utilization of cutting off electricity). 13 9. Describing the zero hour and who determines that, 14 crossed out. 15 10 also is crossed out. 16 11. Informing prior to being exposed and after 17 executing the utmost damage. 18 12. Demands to the media as a whole. However, with 19 the administration they would be through certain stages. 20 13. Crossed out. Specifying the demands and their 21 time arrangements, unintelligible. 22 14 appears nothing to be written next to that and 23 different numbers below that. 24 Number 3. All, unintelligible. 25 Number 2. All cameras and lamps and the windows' 7949 1 glass. 2 1. Erasing all computers. 3 5. Burning all computers. 3 -- 4 THE COURT: Five reads? 5 THE WITNESS: Burning all counters. I'm sorry, your 6 Honor. 7 3. All instruments/appliances and the refrigerator 8 and like. 9 4. All alarm, fire and, unintelligible, sets. 10 6. All T.V. and telephone lines. 11 Q. And if we could now see 4052-B-T. 12 A. It starts out: Duty of the guard. 13 1. Handling and identifying the keys and that we 14 want to get out. 15 2. Keeping an eye on the back (adjective). 16 3. The video and stopping it, in brackets, it may 17 not exist. 18 4. Exits and whether there are keys to them. 19 5. Electricity and its distribution. 20 6. Calling upon others. 21 7. Opening 46 and entering the telephone. In 22 parentheses: It should be known whether to dial 111 or 333. 23 8. Luring the hunt and opening the door for it. 24 9. Informing the bottom/lower that the path is 25 "clear" before going down. 7950 1 10. Crossed out, informing the inquiring people that 2 whom they inquire about came in the morning and left. In 3 brackets: I said that until the matter gets revealed. 4 11. Crossed out. He should say he is under, 5 unintelligible, and that a gun is pointed at his head and he 6 doesn't know how he got hold of the gun, unintelligible, and 7 they have all hostages, unintelligible. 8 Then you have a bracket that says number one and two 9 are crossed out. 10 3. Bringing chains and fire extinguishers and 11 locking the bathroom door. 12 10. Civilian hunt circled, lured not attacked. 13 8. The party, unintelligible, for negotiations. 14 8, again. Relying on God is very important and I 15 think we will test, unintelligible. 16 Getting rid of some prisoners. 17 7. Crossed out, with Odeh 2 equals 6 in fact, 18 unintelligible. 19 1. Crossed out. Working with Abu Tajar is better 20 and easier than Somo, PH. Phonetic, I assume. 21 Numbers 2 to 4 are crossed out and unintelligible. 22 5. Crossed out. There is no bathroom in 9 and it is 23 possible to use, unintelligible. 24 6. Crossed out. Inquiring from al Saleh about 25 Mamdouh on Saturday and Sunday and to confirm, unintelligible. 7951 1 Q. If we could have 4053-A-T. 2 A. Starts with the number 5. After the the completion: 1. 3 Media. Brackets: Before going down. 2. Fortification. 3. 4 Negotiations. 4. Sabotage, with an arrow to 1. And there's 5 nothing next to the 5. 6 Q. If we could have 4054-A-T. 7 A. Number 6 at the top. In the name of God. The guard. 8 Something crossed out. The lieutenant. Opening for the 9 brothers/closing window 3, 2. Quick arming (fire 10 extinguisher, brooms). One Rick (PH) then the rest. Arming 11 (table, fire extinguishers, pipe 1, the counter, lieutenant 12 (fire extinguisher) safe deposits, electricity room, brooms, 13 the door of, unintelligible). Keeping an eye. Hunt. In 14 brackets: Civilian lured. The mirror. Equal the guard. 15 Equal taking things from the room (the luggage, the knives, 16 the paper for the window). Equal quick arming from 17 electricity. Equal crossed out and an equal. 18 Q. And finally, 4054-B-T. 19 A. Number 7 at the top. In the name of God. Crossed out, 20 1935, 6822, 5149. Crossed out, 6541, 4687, 9444, 4322. 21 Triangle, the neighbors, crossed out, the priest, I am 22 Dabdouba. Control. Taking the boxes. Covering the windows. 23 Arming (electricity, the counter, the lieutenant, the green, 24 the table, the big and the small fire extinguishers). Rick 25 the Imam. The completion. Preparing the hunting boxes. 7952 1 Keeping the eye. Equal warning against, unintelligible. 2 Equal making eyeglasses. One, Odeh (1). Two, Al-'Owhali (2). 3 There's a line with the number 3 and Dabdoub, PH. 4 Q. Agent, I would like to ask you about some additional 5 documents recovered from Cell 6, and if I could Government 6 Exhibits 4099, 4100, 101, 102 and 103, not in evidence yet. 7 Were those documents that you recovered from the bins 8 that came from Cell 6? 9 A. Yes. 10 MR. GARCIA: At this time, Judge, we would offer 11 4099, 4100, 4101, 4102 and 4103. 12 THE COURT: Received. 13 (Government Exhibits 4099, 4100, 4101, 4102 and 4103 14 received in evidence) 15 BY MR. GARCIA: 16 Q. If we could, if you could just generally describe for us, 17 what are those, Agent. 18 A. Commissary receipts. 19 Q. And they were found inside the cell? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And do they list the items that were purchased? 22 A. Yes, they do. 23 Q. And do they list the inmate who purchased the item? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And if you could, why don't we start with 4099. And they 7953 1 also list a date; is that right? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. And why don't you tell us who the inmate is and the date 4 and what was purchased. 5 A. The inmate is Salim, the date August 17, 2000. And do you 6 want a list of everything? 7 Q. Is there a reference to a brush? 8 A. Yes, one hairbrush. 9 Q. Why don't we go to 4100. 10 A. Salim, February 25, 1999. There's a listing for one afro 11 comb. 12 Q. And 4101. 13 A. Salim, August 19, 1999. Among other things, one afro 14 comb. 15 Q. And if we could have 4102 displayed. 16 A. Inmate Mohamed, May 18, 2000. Among other things, one 17 hairbrush. 18 Q. And 4103? 19 A. Mohamed, April 6, 2000. Among other items, one hairbrush. 20 Q. Thank you. 21 Did there come a time, Agent, that you returned to 22 the Metropolitan Correctional Center and received a videotape? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And why did you do that? 25 A. There seemed to be some confusion as to whether we had 7954 1 received the correct tape showing what we believe would have 2 been the incident, the attack on Officer Pepe. I proceeded to 3 the Metropolitan Correction Center to get a tape that had 4 previously been turned over to the FBI and returned to MCC. 5 Q. So you wanted to collect the tape that had been previously 6 turned over? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. And then had been returned? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. I'm going to show you Government Exhibit 4119, see if you 11 recognize that. 12 A. Yes, I do. 13 Q. Is that the tape you received at the MCC? 14 A. Yes, it is. 15 Q. About what date was that, approximately, that you 16 collected that tape? 17 A. November 7th. 18 Q. Where were you when you got it? 19 A. I was at MCC. 20 Q. Do you remember where inside the MCC? 21 A. Yes, I do. 22 Q. Where was that? 23 A. Approximately, if you remember the description given by -- 24 you have to pass through -- it was before you entered the 25 second door to go into the hallway that the control room is 7955 1 in. 2 Q. And the best of your recollection, who gave you the tape? 3 A. Robert Perrish. 4 Q. Did you have a chance to review the tape? 5 A. Yes, I did. 6 MR. GARCIA: I will offer it, 4119. 7 Q. Is that the number on the -- 8 A. Yes. 9 MR. GARCIA: Offer 4119. 10 THE COURT: Received. 11 (Government Exhibit 4119 received in evidence) 12 BY MR. GARCIA: 13 Q. Have you had a chance the review 4119, Agent? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And generally, your description, what's on there? 16 A. It appears to be 9 South at the Metropolitan Correction 17 Center. 18 Q. Is there a date stamped on the video? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What is the date? 21 A. October 31st, 2000. 22 MR. GARCIA: Thank you. I have nothing further. 23 THE COURT: Mr. Stern. 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION 25 BY MR. STERN: 7956 1 Q. Agent, you said that video appeared to be 9 South, is that 2 what you meant, or did you mean 10 South? 3 A. I meant 9 South. 4 Q. So there's no shots on that video of 10 South at all? 5 A. I believe there might be some shots of what I think is the 6 entranceway to 10 South and one or -- I think it's both. Not 7 every sequence shows the recreation areas on 10 South. 8 Q. Okay. And by that you mean the big, sort of empty cells 9 when you say the recreation, is that what you mean? 10 A. Recreation areas. 11 Q. They are not outdoors, right? 12 A. Right. Yes, that's correct. 13 Q. They are indoors? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. You have done a number of different things in working on 16 this case, have you not? 17 A. Yes, sir, I have. 18 Q. First, for example, one of the things you did was take ink 19 footprints from Mr. Mohamed, right? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. You've also been the agent in charge of evidence when it's 22 been brought places for testing, correct? 23 A. Sometimes. 24 Q. I'm not saying on every occasion. That's one of the kinds 25 of work you have done? 7957 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. The thing that you were testifying about here today in 3 part is a group of documents that were seized from Cell No. 6 4 on 10 South, right? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And you have gone through in translation what those 7 documents were, correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. But the translations we were shown don't reflect what the 10 actual documents look like, do they? Is there typing on a 11 piece of paper, not in the original language or on the 12 original pieces of paper? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. Okay. 15 MR. STERN: If the government would put up 4054B, 16 please. 17 Q. Is that what the actual document that was seized looks 18 like? 19 A. I'm sorry, can you rephrase that again? 20 Q. Yes. Is that one of the actual documents that was seized 21 from Cell No. 6 on 10 South? 22 A. Yes. 23 MR. STERN: Could we have that blown up a little so 24 it's clearer, please. 25 And if we could see 4054-A, please. 7958 1 Q. Is that just the flip side of that same document? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Do you know where in particular that document was seized 4 in Cell No. 6? 5 A. The location of the document? 6 Q. Right. 7 A. No. 8 Q. Do you know what box it was in, for example? 9 A. What box in the cell? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. No, I do not. 12 Q. Or what bed it was near? 13 A. No, I do not. 14 Q. Do you know if it was in plain view or not inside the 15 cell? 16 A. No, I do not. 17 MR. STERN: Could we see 4053-A, please. 18 Q. That is a photo of another one of the actual documents 19 that was seized, correct? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And that's how it looked at the time at which it was 22 seized? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. You know about that document, where specifically inside 25 Cell No. 6 it was taken from? 7959 1 A. No. 2 Q. About any of these documents, do you have notes or do you 3 know of anyone who has notes that would tell us where exactly 4 inside that cell they were seized from? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you know about any of these documents that we have 7 discussed, whether or not they were in plain view inside Cell 8 No. 6? 9 A. I do not know. 10 Q. I'm going to run through the rest of these documents. I 11 just want you to tell me yes or no whether or not these are 12 the actual photos of the documents that were seized, okay? 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. STERN: Could we see 4052-B, please, and 4052-A I 15 think should be the flip side of that document. 16 Q. Is that one of the documents you seized? 17 A. I didn't get a look at the B side. The A side appears to 18 be that document, yes. 19 Q. Okay. 20 MR. STERN: Could we see 4051-A, please. 21 Q. Does that appear to be one of the documents you seized? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And that document has some English writing on it, doesn't 24 it? 25 A. Yes, it does. 7960 1 Q. Could you read out loud what that writing is? 2 MR. STERN: Could it be blown up a little, please. 3 A. "Winning the war against Asthma and allergy. Dr. Allan 4 Cutler." 5 Q. I don't know if you are aware whether or not Mamdouh Salim 6 suffers from Asthma? 7 A. No, I do not. 8 Q. You do not know? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. You have already been shown the document in English. That 11 is one of the documents you seized, correct? 12 A. There are two in English, sir. 13 Q. You're right. I'm sorry. I meant the longer note that 14 begins "we are the Muslims," 4050-A. 15 A. I'm sorry. Your question? 16 Q. That's one of the documents you seized? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And the other document we're talking about that you said 19 was in English is the flip side of this list, correct; it's 20 4055-A and B? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You actually went into the cell when these things were 23 taken, didn't you? 24 A. I was in the cell while the search was going on to view 25 the cell. I did not participate in the seizing of documents 7961 1 and I did not contribute anything to the search itself. I 2 just wanted to view the cell, the interior of the cell. 3 Q. When you viewed the cell, did you see any of these papers 4 sticking up on the walls? 5 A. These papers? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. Do you remember seeing any of them in the open, on top of 9 a desk? 10 A. I don't recall -- no documents stick out in my mind as to 11 where they were. 12 Q. Another thing that you participated in was trying to get 13 the videotape made on 10 South, correct? 14 A. Trying to get the videotape made? 15 Q. Yes, of what was going on on 10 South? 16 A. Yes, I tried to acquire the tape, if one existed. 17 Q. And I think you said that on the 7th you went and tried to 18 do that, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Is that what you testified? 21 A. Yes, the 7th. 22 Q. And when you got that and looked at it, you realized it 23 wasn't the right tape, isn't that right? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. And so a couple of days later, on the 9th, you called to 7962 1 speak to someone named Robert Perrish, right? 2 A. I don't recall the date, Mr. Stern. 3 Q. Let me show you this document marked K.K.M. 12. Does that 4 refresh your recollection as to the date on which you called 5 Mr. Perrish? 6 A. Yes, November 9th, 2000. 7 Q. And on that date you had a conversation with Mr. Perrish 8 about whether or not that tape was available, right? 9 A. I had a conversation with Mr. Perrish, asking him, or 10 telling him and asking him the tapes that we had did not 11 appear to be the tapes of the incident where Officer Pepe was 12 assaulted, and I was asking him if he knew what the tapes were 13 that we had, or where a tape that would show that assault 14 might exist, or if it did exist. 15 Q. And Mr. Perrish told you, did he not, that he believes 16 that the tape started at 11 p.m. on October 31st, 2000, and 17 stopped recording at 1:04 a.m. on November 1, 2000, didn't he 18 tell you that? 19 A. That's what I recall, yes. 20 Q. And he then told you that he believes that the tape he had 21 given to the FBI, to an agent of the FBI, was a copy and not 22 the original, right? 23 A. Yes, he did say that. 24 Q. And he finally told you the original was reused and was 25 therefore unavailable, right? 7963 1 A. Yes. 2 MR. STERN: I have nothing else. Thank you, Agent. 3 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 4 BY MR. GARCIA: 5 Q. Agent, just so we're clear, this exhibit 4118, which is 6 already in evidence, that's another videotape, right? 7 A. Yes, it is. 8 Q. And you viewed that tape, right? 9 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. And does that in fact show a period of time, according to 11 the tape, from 11 p.m. to 1 a.m.? 12 A. Yes, it does. 13 Q. And the tape that you received, 4119, is it your 14 understanding that that is the tape that was originally given 15 to the FBI on November 1? 16 A. That's my understanding. 17 Q. Do you know whether this particular tape is a copy or was 18 the original one that was given to the FBI? 19 A. I don't know. 20 MR. GARCIA: Nothing further. 21 THE COURT: Thank you. You may step down. 22 MR. STERN: One second, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Oh, yes. 24 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 25 BY MR. STERN: 7964 1 Q. Mr. Perrish told you that that was a copy, right? 2 A. That's what Mr. Perrish told me. 3 Q. And did he tell you when that copy was made? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. Did he tell you who made that copy? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. Did he tell you where that copy was made? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Did he tell you why a copy was made? 10 A. I don't recall. 11 MR. STERN: Thanks. 12 THE COURT: You may step down. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 14 (Witness excused) 15 MR. GARCIA: Government calls Charles Kubilus. 16 CHARLES KUBILUS, 17 called as a witness by the government, 18 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 19 DIRECT EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. GARCIA: 21 Q. Sir, where do you work? 22 A. I work for the FBI in Washington, D.C. 23 Q. What do you do for the FBI? 24 A. I'm a fingerprint specialist. 25 Q. How long have you been doing that type of work, 7965 1 fingerprint analysis? 2 A. Total fingerprint analysis, about 20 years; latent 3 fingerprint analysis for about 13 years. 4 Q. Fair to say that you periodically go for training in this 5 field? 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 Q. And could you briefly explain for us very briefly how a 8 latent print is left on an item? 9 A. Well, there are small raised portions of skin on the 10 undersides of the fingers, and on these raised portions of 11 skin are small pores and from these pores perspiration 12 secretes and it spreads out over those ridges so that 13 sometimes when an item is touched, an outline of those ridges 14 is either left in or on that item. 15 Now, generally speaking, that transferring agent 16 making that latent print is perspiration, but if there is any 17 grease, any other foreign matter that is on the fingers, like 18 grease or oils or blood or paint, that could also be the 19 transfer agent in making a latent print. 20 Now, the term "latent" means hidden, and a latent 21 print is invisible to the naked eye. Therefore, they need 22 some form of processing in order to make them visible, either 23 with chemicals, powders -- 24 MR. RUHNKE: If you could keep your voice up a 25 little, sir. Thank you. 7966 1 Q. Were you finished with your answer? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Based upon your training and experience in fingerprint 4 analysis, are certain types of surfaces better able to retain 5 fingerprints than others? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And could you give us some examples and tell us why. 8 A. First and foremost, most items are porous or non-porous, 9 non-porous being a piece of finished wood, plastic, aluminum 10 can, porous items being paper products, sheets of lined paper, 11 checks, money orders. 12 Latents that are left on non-porous surfaces, such as 13 this piece of finished wood, are very fragile. They can be 14 easily destroyed by being wiped away because they are actually 15 on the item, not in it, like they would be in a piece of paper 16 where they wouldn't be easily destroyed because that 17 fingerprint residue is actually absorbed into the piece of 18 paper. 19 Q. Sir, did there come a time that you were asked to do 20 certain fingerprint comparisons in a case involving an attack 21 on a corrections officer? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. And did you, in doing those comparisons, compare latent 24 prints to the known fingerprints of Khalfan Mohamed and 25 Mamdouh Salim? 7967 1 A. Yes, I did. 2 Q. Did you develop any latent prints on the items that were 3 submitted to you? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And did you, from those latent prints that you developed, 6 were you able to make any matches with either of the known 7 prints I just described? 8 A. Yes, I did. 9 Q. As an initial matter, whose fingerprints were you able to 10 match? 11 A. There were five fingerprints and one palm print identified 12 with a Salim. 13 Q. That was defendant Salim? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Did you make any identifications with the defendant 16 Khalfan Mohamed? 17 A. No. 18 Q. And if we could go to Government Exhibit 4050, which is I 19 believe in front of you. 20 MR. GARCIA: Perhaps you could put that on the screen 21 while he is talking about it. 22 Q. Were you able to lift any latent prints from this 23 document? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. How many? 7968 1 A. Just one. 2 Q. And whose print was that? 3 A. Mr. Salim. 4 Q. And 4053, which I believe is also in front of you. 5 MR. GARCIA: And again, if we could have it 6 displayed. 7 Q. Any latents developed on that? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. How many? 10 A. There was two fingerprints and one palm print. 11 Q. And who do they belong to? 12 A. Mr. Salim. 13 Q. And 4054? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And again, how many and who did they belong to? 16 A. Just one, and that was Mr. Salim. 17 Q. Were you given other items to attempt to develop latent 18 prints on in this investigation? 19 A. Yes, I was. 20 Q. I will show you 4042 in evidence, 4044, also in evidence, 21 4043 in evidence and 4045. 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Were those items that you were given to attempt to develop 24 latent prints? 25 A. Yes, they were. 7969 1 Q. Were you in fact able to develop any latent prints of 2 value from any of those items? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. I'm going to show you 4041 for identification only, not in 5 evidence. Did you test that item for fingerprints? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. Were you able to develop any latent prints on that item? 8 A. No. 9 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, Exhibit No.? 10 MR. GARCIA: 4041, and we are offering that subject 11 to connection only at this time and not showing it, Judge. 12 THE COURT: Received subject to connection. 13 (Government Exhibit 4041 received in evidence) 14 MR. GARCIA: I have nothing further. 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION 16 BY MR. RUHNKE: 17 Q. Sir, you're an agent with the FBI? 18 A. No, sir, I'm not an agent. 19 Q. You are a -- 20 A. Fingerprint specialist. 21 Q. Fingerprint specialist? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Can you tell the jury whether you developed any other 24 prints that would have been of comparison value in your 25 examination? 7970 1 A. As it relates to these particular items? 2 Q. As relates to all the items you examined. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And how many other prints of value did you develop? 5 A. That I developed? 6 Q. Or that the -- let me back up, then. How many 7 fingerprints specialists examined items in connection with 8 this case? 9 A. How many items? 10 Q. How many fingerprint specialists identified items in 11 connection with this case? 12 A. Just me. 13 Q. So my question is -- yes? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. How many fingerprints of comparison value did you develop? 16 A. In totality? 17 Q. In totality. 18 THE WITNESS: Can I look at my notes, your Honor? 19 THE COURT: Go ahead. 20 A. To date, there were a total of six fingerprints, two palm 21 prints, four toe prints, one footprint and two impressions 22 which are either palm prints or footprints. 23 Q. And am I correct in that quite recently you have had an 24 opportunity to examine footprints and toe prints of Khalfan 25 Mohamed; is that correct? 7971 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. And that whatever you were looking at that had footprints 3 and toe prints were not the footprints and toe prints of 4 Khalfan Mohamed, correct? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. Have you recently requested, or are you going to request, 7 fingerprint -- I'm sorry, toe prints and footprints of Mamdouh 8 Mahmud Salim? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. You have requested them? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Have you had an opportunity to compare those footprints or 13 toe prints or have you received them? 14 A. I have had an opportunity to glance at those here while I 15 have been in New York, but I have requested that they be 16 shipped down so I can have the -- 17 Q. Your analysis is not complete on those? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. Did you develop fingerprints of comparison value -- maybe 20 I should stop there. 21 Would you tell the jury what you mean, and I think I 22 understand what you mean, but would you tell the jury what is 23 meant by fingerprints of comparison value. 24 A. Of all I believe that there is sufficient area in that 25 sufficient ridge detail in a latent print that I can determine 7972 1 whether an individual had left that latent print or not. 2 That's what we mean when we say "of value," that there is 3 sufficient ridge detail there for a conclusive comparison. 4 Q. Is it your testimony that you identified fingerprints of 5 comparative value that were not the fingerprints of Khalfan 6 Mohamed and not the fingerprints of Mamdouh Mahmud Salim? 7 A. Not that I developed, no. 8 Q. Did you identify fingerprints of comparative value? 9 I don't want to quibble over terminology. 10 A. I'm not quite sure I understand your question. 11 Q. Okay. We'll start from the beginning. 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. You analyzed a great deal of material that was told to you 14 had been seized in connection with this investigation, for 15 example, were you not? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And you analyzed handcuffs, radios, documents, keys, a 18 whole gamut of materials, correct? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. How many fingerprints did your examination reveal of 21 comparative value? 22 A. I believe I have already stated that there were 12 23 fingerprints, 2 palm prints, 4 toe prints, 1 footprint and 2 24 footprints or palm prints, and I couldn't tell exactly what 25 they were. 7973 1 Q. None of the items had the fingerprints on them of Khalfan 2 Mohamed, correct? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Some of the items had the fingerprints that you could 5 identify of Mamdouh Mahmed Salim, correct? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Were there then prints that were not Mr. Salim's and not 8 Mr. Mohamed's that were nonetheless of comparative value? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And how many of them were there? 11 A. Just right off the top of my head, I have identified five 12 fingerprints, so that would be seven fingerprints that are 13 left remain unidentified. 14 Q. There are seven fingerprints, then, that are neither 15 Mr. Mohamed's or Mr. Salim's, but would be of identification 16 value, correct? 17 A. Yes. In addition to that, there's one palm print that 18 doesn't, that wasn't made by Mr. Salim or Mr. Mohamed. 19 Q. Have you looked at the fingerprints, for example, of a man 20 named Mohamed Sadeek Odeh? 21 A. There was a number of people that were compared initially, 22 and if I could just refer back to my notes. 23 The name again, sir? 24 Q. Mohamed Sadeek Odeh, O-D-E-H? 25 A. Yes. 7974 1 Q. And how about Mohamed Rashid Daoud Al-'Owhali? 2 Agent, may I make this suggestion. Not agent. May I 3 make this suggestion? Would you just simply read to the jury 4 the names of the individuals whose fingerprints you 5 identified -- examined and compared. 6 A. Okay. This particular report states that there were six 7 latent fingerprints and one latent palm print developed on a 8 torn piece of paper, but the paragraph I think you are 9 concerned about is in this report I have identified five 10 latent fingerprints and one latent palm print as Salim. 11 The next paragraph reads: "The remaining latent 12 fingerprints, which would be one, are not the fingerprints of 13 Salim, Khalfan Khamis Mohamed, Mohamed Sadeek Odeh, Mohamed 14 al'-Owhali, Wadih El Hage, Waleh Kahn Amen Sha. 15 Q. So there are fingerprints that are on that document that 16 are none of those people's fingerprints, correct? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. In developing fingerprints, what technique did you use in 19 this case to develop the fingerprints for comparison purposes? 20 Did you use a variety of techniques? 21 A. Yes, but primarily they were developed in Ninhydrin. 22 Q. That's a chemical substance? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And just tell the jury how that works? 25 A. That reacts primarily with the amino acids that are 7975 1 present in the fingerprint residue, and it makes those latent 2 prints visible by reacting with those amino acids and turning 3 them like a purplish color. 4 Q. We have heard testimony in this case from evidence 5 recovery agents who talk about Crazy Gluing items for 6 fingerprints. Do you know what I'm talking about, a Crazy 7 Glue technique for fingerprint development? 8 A. Super Glue. 9 Q. Super Glue, sorry. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Super Glue, Crazy Glue, what are they talking about? 12 A. What they are talking about is taking Super Glue and 13 heating it, and what it does, it forms a gas. And what that 14 gas does is it reforms on any moisture that may be on a 15 particular item that you want to examine for latent prints. 16 And what it does is it attaches itself to that moisture and it 17 forms a permanent reproduction of that latent print, but yet 18 it's in Super Glue, so it goes from a liquid to a gas and then 19 it forms back to a solid on the item. 20 Q. Was that technique performed in this case? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. On which items? 23 A. On the two knives, and I believe that there was a -- when 24 I say knives, the two sharpened instruments -- the containers 25 of the two -- 7976 1 Q. Two honey bear containers? 2 A. That's correct. Handcuffs, radio, and I believe that 3 there was a electrical plate that may have been Super Glued as 4 well. 5 Q. And did any fingerprints of any comparative value show up 6 as a result of those examinations? 7 A. Yes. There was some on the electrical plate or electrical 8 box cover, maybe. 9 Q. Did that compare to any of the prints that you were given 10 to compare with? 11 A. No, sir. 12 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, sir. No more questions. 13 MR. GARCIA: Nothing, Judge. 14 THE COURT: Thank you, sir. You may step down. 15 (Witness excused) 16 THE COURT: The government may call its next witness. 17 MR. GARCIA: Charles Quenzer. 18 CHARLES F. QUENZER, 19 called as a witness by the government, 20 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 21 DIRECT EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. GARCIA: 23 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Quenzer. 24 A. Good afternoon. 25 Q. Do you work for the FBI? 7977 1 A. Yes. I'm employed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. 2 I'm assigned to the chemistry unit of the FBI laboratory. 3 Q. You are not a special agent? 4 A. I am not a special agent, no. 5 Q. And how long have you been with the chemistry unit at the 6 FBI? 7 A. I have been employed at the chemistry unit of the Federal 8 Bureau of Investigation since 1972 as a forensic chemist and 9 my title is forensic chemist examiner. 10 Q. And what is your, briefly, educational background? 11 A. In 1972 I graduated from St. John's University right in 12 New York with a bachelor of science degree in toxicology. 13 That program was one of the earlier programs in the United 14 States offering a bachelor of science degree in that 15 specialized science. 16 In acquiring that degree, I had laboratory experience 17 in the medical examiner facilities out in Nassau County as 18 well as Suffolk County, and then upon completing the degree I 19 went directly to work for the Federal Bureau of Investigation. 20 Q. And is it fair to say, without getting into the details, 21 that you receive periodic training in your field with the FBI? 22 A. Yes. The Federal Bureau of Investigation provides 23 training for its examiners. In 1994 was a two-week course, 24 and as recent as last May I went to an evidence response team 25 training course down in Quantico, Virginia on the proper 7978 1 collection and handling out at a scene when you respond. 2 Q. And you have been a forensic examiner, that title, since 3 1994? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. And in the case involving an attack on a corrections 6 officer, were you asked to do certain examinations? 7 A. Yes, I was. 8 Q. Can you tell us generally the type of examination you do? 9 A. The type of examination I conduct in the chemistry unit is 10 varied. We deal with the analysis of biological -- 11 THE COURT: No. In this particular case, what did 12 you do? 13 THE WITNESS: In this particular case I was requested 14 to look at some unknown substances that were submitted in 15 commercial plastic containers and to try to determine what 16 that unknown substance was. I was also requested to look at 17 stains on clothing items and stains on swabs. 18 Q. I'm going to hand you what's in evidence as Government 19 Exhibit 4044. Ask you to take a look at that. 20 Are those two of the items you were asked to examine? 21 A. Yes. And the way I recognize the containers are my 22 initials on the plastic containers themselves as well as the 23 accompanying laboratory number. 24 Q. And could you tell us the results of your examination of 25 those particular items, Government Exhibit 4044? 7979 1 A. These particular items, when I first was given them, 2 contained an orange-brown substance. I removed the 3 orange-brown substance to conduct an analysis and returned the 4 containers to the latent fingerprint examiner so he could 5 conduct exams on the containers themselves. 6 On that orange substance, immediately upon opening 7 the containers and withdrawing the substance, you could tell 8 that it was some form of a hot sauce just by its aroma and its 9 consistency and its looks. I then conducted chemical 10 examinations on the particular liquid hot sauce to look for 11 the chemicals that are active in hot sauce that give it its 12 adjective "hot." 13 There are chemicals that are associated with peppers, 14 hot peppers, and I identified two of the chemicals that are 15 present in hot peppers along with some acidic acid, which is a 16 component of vinegar. Vinegar is also present in hot sauce 17 and lends itself to giving it some of its aroma. 18 So by identifying three of those chemicals and the 19 physical observations, I was able to say that the substance in 20 each of these plastic containers was consistent with a common 21 hot sauce. 22 MR. RUHNKE: Can I just ask which exhibit he is 23 reading? 24 Q. I'm sorry, if you can read the number of the exhibit that 25 you have there. 7980 1 I believe it's 4044. Yes. 4044. 2 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you. 3 Q. And you mentioned three chemicals you were able to 4 identify that were consistent with a common hot sauce? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Could you tell us the names? 7 A. The three chemicals that are present in hot sauces, all 8 common commercial brands, are capsaicin and dehydrocapsaicin. 9 These are two chemicals that are present in extracts of pepper 10 from the plant capsicum. And the third chemical is acidic 11 acid. Acidic acid is a component of vinegar. And those are 12 the three chemicals that I identified in the orange liquids 13 that allowed me to make a statement that it was consistent 14 with a common hot sauce. 15 Q. You are saying that it was -- I'm sorry, withdrawn. 16 Capsaicin, C-A-P-S-A-C-I-N? 17 A. No, C-A-P-S-A-I-C-I-N. 18 Q. And you are saying that it was consistent with 19 commercially available hot sauce? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. How did you make that comparison? 22 A. We have commercially purchased hot sauces in the 23 laboratory. I myself bought some, brought some from home, 24 commercial brands, and I was able to run comparisons and 25 analyses just like I explained for these chemical components 7981 1 on the commercial brands, and indeed the commercial brands 2 have the three chemical components I name, capsaicin, 3 dehydrocapsaicin, and acidic acid. 4 Q. And did you also compare to a commercially available hot 5 sauce called Keffe's K-E-F-F-E's? 6 A. The brand alluded to was not available in Washington, D.C. 7 and it was submitted by the case agent as an item control that 8 was from the prison. 9 Keffe's Louisiana Hot Sauce was submitted for 10 comparison also, and that, as a control, was consistent with 11 all the other commercial brands of hot sauces, including what 12 was in these two plastic containers. 13 Q. And I'm going to hand you three other -- two exhibits, 14 three bottles, 4043 and 4045, which also are in evidence. Did 15 you also receive those bottles in the lab? 16 A. Yes. I received them from, not directly, but from Charles 17 Kubilus, who received them directly. 18 Q. Could you tell us, did you do any chemical analysis on 19 those items? 20 A. These three bottles -- and again, my initials on the 21 bottom is how I recognize them, as well as the laboratory 22 number -- these three bottles had no chemical examinations 23 conducted on the contents that were within them. Two of the 24 bottles were essentially empty. The third bottle contained a 25 white powder, which of course a white powder is not consistent 7982 1 with hot sauce. The white powder, upon being removed and 2 stored, had the physical consistency from observation as well 3 as an aroma for just plain detergent. But again, no chemical 4 exam was conducted. 5 The other small amount of liquid that was in another 6 container had the physical appearance and consistency of just 7 about 20 drops of water, simple water. And the third bottle 8 that was essentially empty had an orange-brown crusty residue 9 that I removed into a small vial. 10 Again, the reason all these contents were removed was 11 to give the containers back to the latent print examiner. 12 That third item I mentioned, the orange-brown crusty 13 substance, had a consistency in all as well as an aroma that 14 was similar to a hot sauce, and could be a hot sauce, but 15 again, no chemical exams were conducted on those contents. 16 Q. I'm going to show you what is in evidence as 4310. Could 17 you just explain for us what that is? 18 A. Number 4310, this particular exhibit was initially 19 received by a DNA examiner as a white swab, a gauze swab about 20 an inch square. He forwarded it to me in the chemistry unit 21 to analyze the yellow stain that was upon that piece of white 22 gauze. 23 I chemically analyzed the stain on that gauze and 24 determined that the two chemical components capsaicin and 25 dehydrocapsaicin were identified in that stain and the stain 7983 1 could indeed could originate from a hot sauce source. 2 These other gauze items on the right are examples of 3 what is called controls. I made them myself by spotting 4 commercial brands of hot sauce onto the gauze, allowing it to 5 dry, because the gauze specimen, Exhibit 4044, Exhibit 4310, 6 the gauze specimen was dry when I received it. You can see 7 the yellow stain. And the difference in intensity is the 8 difference in the amounts of hot sauce. The least intense 9 color is from two drops only of hot sauce. The most intense 10 is from up to six drops. 11 And all of these gauze samples were analyzed and all 12 they essentially did was show different responses in terms of 13 how strong a stain was. And the stain on the submitted white 14 piece of gauze again was consistent with and could originate 15 from hot sauce stain such as the Keefe's Louisiana Hot Sauce 16 brand. 17 Q. You mentioned you found two chemicals on the swab that was 18 submitted? 19 A. Two chemicals were identified on the swab, capsaicin and 20 dehydrocapsaicin. 21 Q. You didn't identify acidic acid; is that right? 22 A. Acidic acid was not identified on the stain, and the 23 reason it was not identified is that, as I stated, these 24 stains are dry. Acidic acid is a liquid that when a substance 25 goes dry, it's not going to be around anymore than water for 7984 1 that. You don't perform a test for water on a dry specimen. 2 You don't perform a test for acidic acid on a dry specimen. 3 MR. GARCIA: I'm going to move into a final area that 4 would require a little setting up, if this is a convenient 5 time to break. 6 THE COURT: Okay. We will take our mid afternoon 7 recess at this point. 8 MR. GARCIA: Thank you, Judge. 9 MR. RUHNKE: During the break, if it's convenient 10 with your Honor, can we see you on an ex parte witness matter. 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 (Pages 7985 through 7987 filed under seal) 13 (Continued on next page) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7988 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Can I see a honey bear jar? 3 MR. GARCIA: This is 4044. 4 THE COURT: Do we have an exhibit as a Keffe's 5 Louisiana Hot Sauce? 6 MR. GARCIA: Yes. 7 THE COURT: Can I see that also? 8 MR. GARCIA: Yes. I think it's 4314, Judge. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Thanks. 10 (Jury enters) 11 THE COURT: Very well, you may continue. 12 MR. GARCIA: Thank you, Judge. 13 DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued) 14 BY MR. GARCIA: 15 Q. Mr. Quenzer, did there also come a time when you received 16 in your lab items of clothing to perform similar tests on? 17 A. Yes. I directly received from the field office a boxful 18 of clothing, 18 bags, each bag containing an item of clothing. 19 Q. I'm going to show you Government Exhibit 4302, which is 20 already in evidence, and ask you if that item was one of the 21 items of clothing you received. 22 A. Yes, this was one of the items of clothing I received. 23 Q. Did you perform tests, chemical analysis on that item? 24 A. Yes, I did test all the items, including this one. 25 Q. Could you show us on 4302 where exactly you tested that 7989 1 particular item of clothing? 2 A. The item of clothing, each item of clothing, was tested in 3 two places, one place where I saw a visible stain and the 4 other place where I did not see a stain. So there would be 5 two cuttings on each of these items. 6 Q. And if we could put up as an exhibit 4302B-P, and if at 7 the same time, Mr. Quenzer, you could show us the actual area 8 you did the cuttings. 9 A. Q102 -- that's the laboratory designation -- is the right 10 sleeve area where you can see some yellow stains visible in 11 the photograph. This cut area represents approximately a 12 one-inch square of an area of that yellow stain of the sleeve 13 that you are looking at. The second cut area is very close to 14 the yellow stained area, but it's in an area that is white and 15 there is no yellow stain. 16 In other words, this area, the second cutting, should 17 not contain two chemical components that are present in 18 capsaicin, which is present in hot sauce. So we call that in 19 the laboratory a negative control, or a blank may be another 20 term. In other words, one section of sleeve has the yellow 21 stain I cut and analyzed for hot sauce. The second area of 22 the sleeve has no visible stain and it should have no hot 23 sauce ingredients. 24 Q. What were the results of your examination for that 25 particular item 4302? 7990 1 A. The conclusions I came to after chemically analyzing the 2 yellow area was that two chemical components capsaicin and 3 dehydrocapsaicin, which are present in capsaicin -- which is 4 present in hot sauce, were identified in this right sleeve 5 area. Neither of those two components were identified in the 6 area where there was no stain. To me, that means that the 7 yellow area, the yellowish-type stain could have as an origin 8 hot sauce. Nothing more complicated than that. 9 Q. I'll take that back and show you 4303, which is also in 10 evidence, and I ask you, was that also one of the items that 11 you examined in the lab and performed similar tests on? 12 A. Yes, this item's designation would be Q105 from the 13 laboratory. 14 MR. GARCIA: And if we could first see 4303P, the 15 photograph that is in evidence, and now 4303A-P. 16 Q. Mr. Quenzer, the area in photograph 4303A-P, is that the 17 area you performed your tests on, the general area? 18 A. Yes. The area where you can see the off white stains is 19 the area that I visibly was testing for the presence of hot 20 sauce components. There is still some of the stain present, 21 as you can see from the photograph, and also on the jacket. 22 It could be re-tested by any other lab because there is still 23 stain left. 24 The area, the second cutting, is right below that 25 area where there is no visible stain. That area should not 7991 1 contain the components of hot sauce, capsaicin and 2 dehydrocapsaicin, again to reiterate, and again, indeed it 3 does not. That area that does not have the stain again we 4 call a negative control. 5 The area where the stain was visible, I identified 6 the two chemical components that are present in hot sauce and 7 to me it allows a conclusion that that stain could have its 8 source as hot sauce. 9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Quenzer. I'm going to hand up to you one 10 final exhibit and I will take the jacket back. 11 This is Government Exhibit 4057, already in evidence. 12 Is that an item that you received also in the laboratory to 13 perform similar tests on? 14 A. I received this item to test again for the presence of hot 15 sauce on stains, and it came in later than the other 18 bags 16 of clothing so it has another laboratory number, but its Q 17 designation is 107, 107. 18 Q. Could you tell us what you did with that item of clothing? 19 A. On this particular item, pants, gray pants, there were 20 quite a few stains that appeared to me, as a chemist, to be 21 appeared to be blood. But I don't identify blood or anything 22 like that, that's the property of another unit, our DNA unit. 23 However, they appear to me to be blood, and there also appear 24 to be some hot sauce stains lower down on the left leg. 25 On this particular item, I followed the same 7992 1 procedure. As soon as I locate the lower left leg, we'll be 2 in fine shape. 3 I'm going to -- some of these other cuttings that you 4 will see here were taken by a DNA examiner, not me. You will 5 see two cuttings on the lower left leg, one right here by my 6 left hand and then the other a little further higher up. It's 7 on the left leg. They each were cut out and analyzed. One 8 had the visible stain, again located by nothing more than 9 sight, looked like a food stain, and the chemical components 10 of hot sauce were identified in this stained area. 11 The other area did not have the stain, was just an 12 area of gray pants where there was no ostensible blood stain 13 or any other kind of stain. It represents our negative 14 control. That's the area right by my left hand. That was cut 15 out, and the chemical components present in hot sauce were not 16 there. Again, that represents the negative control and that's 17 the way it should be. They shouldn't be where you don't see 18 the stain, but they are where you do see a stain. 19 On this particular item, I also took two other stains 20 and it's the only item where this was done, and the reason 21 that two other stains were taken was that this item appeared 22 to me to have many areas covered with blood and I didn't want 23 the blood to perhaps be masking a small hot sauce stain. So I 24 went into the bloody area and I recovered two more cuttings, 25 one from the top of the pants and one from the right thigh 7993 1 area on his other leg. 2 These areas appear to me, again, to be bloody areas 3 and I was concerned with the masking effect. In other words, 4 a small hot sauce stain might not be visible if it is covered 5 by a lot of blood. So I conducted chemical tests on these 6 other two areas, also. Those tests were negative for the 7 chemical components of hot sauce and hot sauce stains were not 8 identified on either of those two cuttings. 9 So the only place on this pair of pants where the hot 10 sauce components were identified was in the cutting taken on 11 the lower left leg in an area that appears to be hot sauce 12 stains and consistent with all the other type stains on all 13 the other type clothing. There are still stains present on 14 the leg that represent to me, visibly anyway, the consistency 15 of a hot sauce stain. 16 Q. So just so we're clear, there were other stains on the 17 garment that visibly look like hot sauce to you that you did 18 not test? 19 A. That is correct. 20 MR. GARCIA: Thank you. I have nothing further. 21 THE COURT: Cross-examination. 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. RUHNKE: 24 Q. Can we just hold on to that exhibit that you have right 25 now. Don't put it away, please. 7994 1 If you would not mind standing up and holding those 2 up and just demonstrating to the jury where on that garment 3 you located -- first of all, I'll start with asking you, where 4 did you make cuttings that were analyzed as consistent with 5 hot sauce? 6 A. The lower left leg area, you can see two cuttings, one 7 right by my hand here and one right by my hand here. This is 8 the negative control. There was no stain visible, no hot 9 sauce components present. This one represented an area where 10 there was a stain. It was cut out, analyzed, and hot sauce 11 components were identified. 12 You can see a stain here. It's probably difficult to 13 see, but right here. 14 Q. Would you show it to the jury, please, Mr. Quenzer. 15 A. It's an off-white-type stain. And there's stains here, 16 right here. 17 Q. More consisting the hot sauce? 18 A. Visibly consistent with hot sauce, yes. But a stain just 19 like this was tested, that would be the one that was right 20 here, and it did contain the chemical components of capsicum. 21 Q. Were there any other areas on that garment that either 22 tested for hot sauce or appeared to have stains consistent 23 with a visual examination that it was hot sauce? 24 A. No. I did take two other cuttings, as I explained, but 25 you couldn't tell that they were consistent with hot sauce 7995 1 because of the blood in the area. 2 Q. So the answer is the only ones were the ones you 3 discussed, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Would you put that away, please. 6 You testified that you received 18 bags of clothing, 7 is that accurate? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Were those 18 essentially 18 separate items of clothing 10 each individually bagged? 11 A. Yes, they were. 12 Q. Did each item of clothing get its own Q number? 13 A. Yes, it did, sir. 14 Q. And if it's not perfectly obvious, the FBI uses a Q to 15 designate a questioned item and a K to designate a known item; 16 is that correct? 17 A. Yes, a known or a control item. 18 Q. So if something is a K1, that's a known quantity; if 19 something is a Q item, it's something that is questioned and 20 needs to be analyzed, is that accurate? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do you have a list in front of you of the Q numbers that 23 you examined for evidence of hot sauce? 24 A. Would you please repeat the question, sir? 25 Q. Do you have with you a listing of the clothing, the Q 7996 1 items that you examined for hot sauce? 2 A. Yes. They were Q88 through Q105 and Q107, and the Q 3 listings in the laboratory start with Q1. So this represents, 4 to me at least, 107 specimens that different examiners may 5 have been involved with. 6 Q. Right. And a Q1 could have been a piece of paper, 7 anything at all? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. But the clothing was 88 through 105. And do you have in 12 your -- 13 A. And Q107. 14 Q. Do you have in your notes a description of what each of 15 those items was? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Would you read that to the jury, item by item, Q88? 18 A. I would have to refer to my notes for that. 19 Q. That's fine. I don't expect you to have it in your 20 memory. 21 A. On my inventory, Q88 -- was that the Q in question, sir? 22 Q. Yes. You said they started with Q88? 23 A. Right. Q88 was inventoried as a brown bag labeled Officer 24 K. Chaplan, 11/1/2000, stained jumpsuit, blue. 25 Q. You know what, I know I asked that question, but I realize 7997 1 this is going to take some time and I think we can probably 2 resolve it without having you do that. 3 Let me ask you this. Did you examine or look at any 4 items in the Q40 series or the Q50 series or the Q60 series? 5 A. The Q42 specimen was a white piece of gauze with a yellow 6 stain, and I analyzed one half of that stain for hot sauce 7 components. 8 Q. Maybe I should do it this way. You examined 18 items of 9 clothing which you said are the Q88 through 105 and 107. Did 10 you examine other Q numbers, and what Q numbers did you 11 examine? 12 A. Well, if I understand your question, sir, it would start 13 with Q23 and Q24, which are the two honey bear containers that 14 had the orange-brown substance in it that was found to be 15 consistent with hot sauce. 16 Q. I think for our purposes if you just give us our Q numbers 17 we can match them up later on. I just want to know what you 18 examined by Q number. 19 A. What I examined was comprised in five laboratory 20 submissions so it's spread out, but it would start with Q23 21 and Q24, Q42, Q47, Q107, Q88 through Q105, and there was an 22 inventory of the items Q85, Q86 and Q87, but no chemical exams 23 performed. So there is only an inventory of those items. 24 Q. And those are all the items that you examined and the 25 items you found hot sauce on are the ones you have testified 7998 1 about here in court today; is that correct? 2 A. That is correct. 3 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, sir. I have no more 4 questions. 5 THE COURT: Thank you, sir. you may step down. 6 (Witness excused) 7 THE COURT: Government may call its next witness. 8 MR. FITZGERALD: Judge, may we have a moment? 9 (Pause) 10 MR. FITZGERALD: Judge, may we approach together for 11 a moment? 12 (Discussion at sidebar off the record) 13 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, I am told that it 14 would be more efficient if we adjourned, so we will do that, 15 until Monday. 16 Have a good weekend. Please remember what I said 17 about not listening or reading or watching anything about this 18 case or related to the case. 19 We will not sit on July 4th. I'm not sure whether we 20 will be finished before then, but you should know that we will 21 not sit on July 4th. You have your independence on that day. 22 If you are deliberating at that time, you will sit on the 3rd 23 and the 5th. 24 Have a good weekend. 25 THE COURT: And we are adjourned until 4:30 for the 7999 1 motion to quash the subpoena of the psychiatrist. 2 Anything else that we should take up before the jury 3 comes in on Monday? 4 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, we will be in touch with 5 Mr. Ruhnke about the BOP matter. Nothing at the moment. 6 (Adjourned to 9:30 a.m. on June 25, 2001) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8000 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Witness D X RD RX 3 ROBERT PARRISH..........7835 7843 7853 4 WILFRED E. BAPTISTE.....7855 7858 5 DAVID STONE.............7859 7863 7868 6 LEONARD W. HATTON.......7869 7905 7917 7918 7 JOSEPH D. FOELSCH.......7918 8 JOSEPH FOELSCH..........7943 7955 7963 7963 9 CHARLES KUBILUS.........7964 7969 10 CHARLES F. QUENZER......7976 7993 11 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS 12 Exhibit No. Received 13 4118 .......................................7863 14 4003 to 4006, 4007, 4007A, 4008 to 4021, 15 4022A, 4022B, 4022C, 4023, 4024, 4025, 4027, 16 4028, 4029, 4032, 4033, 4034, 4035, 4036, 4037, 17 4038 and 4039 ..............................7872 18 4058 .......................................7874 19 4078 .......................................7876 20 4064, 4075 and 4079 ........................7877 21 4029 and 4093 ..............................7879 22 4062 .......................................7880 23 4042 .......................................7881 24 4044 .......................................7882 25 4043 and 4087 ..............................7884 8001 1 4080 through 4086 ..........................7886 2 4048 .......................................7889 3 4090 .......................................7889 4 4314 .......................................7890 5 4091 .......................................7891 6 4089 .......................................7892 7 4311 .......................................7892 8 4042 and 4094 ..............................7894 9 4045 .......................................7895 10 4310 .......................................7898 11 4000P ......................................7900 12 4000-E .....................................7904 13 4050 through 4055 ..........................7921 14 4050-A .....................................7943 15 4066, 4051-A-T, 4051-B-T, 4051-A, 4051-B, 16 4052-A-T, 4052-B-T, 4052-A, 4052-B, 4053-A-T, 17 4053-A, 4054-A-T, 4054-B-T, 4054-A 18 and 4054-B .................................7946 19 4099, 4100, 4101, 4102 and 4103 ............7952 20 4119 .......................................7955 21 4041 .......................................7969 22 23 24 25
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