26 June May 2001
Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of New York; (212) 805-0300.

This is the transcript of Day 69 of the trial, June 26, 2001.

See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm


   2   ------------------------------x


   4              v.                           S(7) 98 Cr. 1023

   5   USAMA BIN LADEN, et al.,

   6                  Defendants.

   7   ------------------------------x

                                               New York, N.Y.
   9                                           June 26, 2001
                                               9:50 a.m.


  12   Before:

  13                       HON. LEONARD B. SAND,

  14                                           District Judge













   1                            APPEARANCES

            United States Attorney for the
   3        Southern District of New York
   4        MICHAEL GARCIA

            Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed




















   1            (Trial resumed; jury not present)

   2            THE COURT:  We were engaged in some colloquy

   3   concerning the testimony of Dr. Cunningham when we realized

   4   that the court reporter had not yet arrived.  We had agreed

   5   that Dr. Cunningham was not to testify as to his belief as to

   6   what sentence would be appropriate and that Mr. Ruhnke was to

   7   caution him not to volunteer that during the course of the

   8   testimony.  And we had begun to address the question of fees.

   9   I think Mr. Ruhnke was making the point that with respect to

  10   his fees they are subject to judicial oversight in the

  11   particular cases in which the fees were earned.  Was it the

  12   case that all of his fees were earned as court-appointed

  13   counsel?

  14            MR. RUHNKE:  If not a hundred percent, 95 percent,

  15   but the overwhelming majority of them have been earned, courts

  16   approved the hourly rate as reasonable for the services

  17   rendered.  It is not just him setting it.  If the government

  18   wants to go down that road, I don't think it is fair to put

  19   the brakes on the defense when balancing the picture and say

  20   in every instance his services are presented to the court --

  21            THE COURT:  The fees reasonable and necessary for the

  22   defense -- the point is not whether the fees were earned or

  23   not but whether he has a regular source of income and the

  24   extent of it which is dependent upon his appearing for

  25   defense.  What is the government's view on this?


   1            MR. FITZGERALD:  That is exactly right, your Honor.

   2   The issue is his motive to keep testifying for the defense.

   3   The court does not pass upon someone's testimony in retaining

   4   him, and to give the jury the implication that you have

   5   endorsed his testimony would be wrong.  The issue is not

   6   keeping track of his hours but what his financial incentives

   7   are.

   8            THE COURT:  Yes, but, on the other hand, assume it is

   9   a very large amount from the perspective of the jurors.  They

  10   might think poorly of him if his fees were unreasonable or not

  11   in accordance with professional standards.

  12            Suppose you asked him whether his fees were charged

  13   at rates which were found to be professionally acceptable,

  14   without indicating who it was who found them professionally

  15   acceptable.

  16            MR. RUHNKE:  Does that make the question exactly

  17   that, who found them to be professionally acceptable?  The

  18   truth is that Dr. Cunningham has to have his fees approved by

  19   the courts, that the rate is approved by the courts.  As a

  20   matter of fact, the rate that he charges is significantly less

  21   than the government pays when it employs private psychologists

  22   in a forensic context, and that may be a function that courts

  23   are reluctant to approve higher rates.  The government doesn't

  24   have to come to a court to seek the rate it pays.

  25            THE COURT:  Why don't you ask him what percentage of


   1   his annual income is derived from appearing as a witness on

   2   behalf of defendants.  That's a formula that is regularly used

   3   in personal injury litigation and so on.  Wouldn't that make

   4   the point and eliminate the problem?

   5            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, since I have asked that

   6   the information not be given, I don't think I should be,

   7   because I haven't given the information, be limited at this

   8   point in time.  I think I should have a latitude to follow up.

   9   He had the opportunity to provide it in advance and maybe we

  10   could have worked something out, but he chose not to.

  11            THE COURT:  Proceed as you wish, but I will not

  12   preclude, if it is elicited for the jury that he has a very

  13   generous income from testifying on behalf of defendants in

  14   criminal cases, that the rates that he charges are those which

  15   are acceptable and approved in the profession.  I wouldn't go

  16   into who it is that approves.

  17            MR. RUHNKE:  Yes, your Honor.

  18            THE COURT:  Let's bring in the jury.  Have you agreed

  19   on stipulations?

  20            MR. GARCIA:  Yes, Judge.

  21            THE COURT:  You have some stipulations and the

  22   government is going to rest?

  23            MR. GARCIA:  Yes.

  24            THE COURT:  Very well.

  25            MR. RUHNKE:  Your Honor, a couple of matters before


   1   we bring the jury in.  I don't see Dr. Cunningham physically

   2   in the courtroom.  He is upstairs or -- we will locate him.  I

   3   am going to need a moment to speak with him before we start.

   4   I don't want to do that with the jury staring at us.  Rementer

   5   should be our first witness.  Mr. Rementer will probably not

   6   be on the witness stand very long, probably 15 or 20 minutes.

   7            THE COURT:  We will give you a moment or two to talk

   8   to him.

   9            MR. RUHNKE:  Thanks.

  10            THE COURT:  I know you asked for some additional

  11   time.  When are the defendant's requests to charge due?  Can I

  12   have them by noon tomorrow?

  13            MR. RUHNKE:  I will try to have them by then, your

  14   Honor.  Frankly, your Honor, given what we are doing, would it

  15   be all right if I submit them Friday morning, or is that too

  16   late?

  17            THE COURT:  I would like to have them before Friday.

  18   How about Thursday afternoon?

  19            MR. RUHNKE:  Fine.

  20            THE COURT:  It is not going to be a momentous task.

  21            MR. RUHNKE:  Yes, sir.

  22            THE COURT:  Let's schedule a charging conference for

  23   Monday at 4:30.

  24            Your first witness will be?

  25            MR. RUHNKE:  It will be Mr. Stern calling the witness


   1   Mr. Rementer.  Before we do that, your Honor, we will read a

   2   stipulation.

   3            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, one scheduling matter.

   4   We have no idea how long Mr. Ruhnke's case will take, nor how

   5   long our rebuttal case will take.  But there is some

   6   possibility that we may be able to sum up on Monday.

   7            THE COURT:  Do you know how much time you will want

   8   for closing?

   9            MR. FITZGERALD:  I will ask for three hours but it

  10   will be less.

  11            THE COURT:  Mr. Ruhnke, do you have any idea?

  12            MR. STERN:  I think three hours.

  13            THE COURT:  Who will make the closing?

  14            MR. STERN:  I will.

  15            (Jury present)

  16            THE COURT:  Good morning.

  17            JURORS:  Good morning.

  18            THE COURT:  Mr. Garcia.

  19            MR. GARCIA:  Thank you, Judge.  The government would

  20   read several stipulations, your Honor.  The first one,

  21   Government's Exhibit 4316, reads as follows:  It is hereby

  22   agreed and stipulated between the parties as follows:

  23            Government's Exhibit 4030 is a fair and accurate

  24   photograph of the inside of cell number 6 on the 10 South unit

  25   of the Metropolitan Correctional Center, taken on November 1,


   1   2000.

   2            Government's Exhibit 4095, labeled as Q76 by the FBI

   3   laboratory, was recovered by agents of the Federal Bureau of

   4   Investigation from the floor of cell number 6 on the 10 South

   5   unit of the MCC on November 1, 2000.

   6            It is further agreed that this stipulation may be

   7   received in evidence as a government exhibit at trial.

   8            The government would offer 4316, 4030 and 4095, and

   9   display 4030.

  10            THE COURT:  Yes, received.

  11            (Government Exhibits 4316, 4030, and 4095 received in

  12   evidence.

  13            MR. GARCIA:  Second stipulation, 4317.  It is hereby

  14   stipulated and agreed between the parties as follows:

  15   Government's Exhibit 4034 is the shirt worn by Bureau of

  16   Prisons employee Roderick Jenkins on November 1, 2000, during

  17   the time when he responded to the alarm on the 10 South unit

  18   of the Metropolitan Correctional Center.

  19            The government would offer 4317, the stipulation, and

  20   4304, the underlying exhibit.

  21            THE COURT:  Received.

  22            (Government Exhibits 4317 and 4304 received in

  23   evidence)

  24            MR. GARCIA:  The final stipulation, 4318.  It is

  25   hereby stipulated and agreed between the parties as follows:


   1            In November 1998, defendants Mohamed Sadeek Odeh, El

   2   Wadih el Hage, and Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali were housed

   3   on the 10 South high security housing unit in the Metropolitan

   4   Correctional Center.  Defendants Mamdouh Salim and Khalfan

   5   Mohamed were not yet in American custody.  Because of concerns

   6   expressed by counsel for the defendants on 10 South that their

   7   conversations with their clients might be overheard by the

   8   staff at the MCC, the warden of the MCC agreed to place a

   9   removable sheet of plexiglass on 10 South to be used to cover

  10   the recreation room bars when the defendants met with their

  11   attorneys in that room so as to muffle the sound and make it

  12   less likely that any conversation would be overheard.  The

  13   shield depicted in GX4012 is such a plexiglass sheet which had

  14   handles on both sides to aid in its placement over the bars

  15   and its removal.  A removable sheet was chosen so as to allow

  16   for greater ventilation when the sheet was not in use, as

  17   during recreation.

  18            In the fall of 1999, after challenges were made by

  19   defendant Wadih El Hage to the conditions of his confinement

  20   prior to trial on the high security wing of the MCC, agreement

  21   was reached between all parties that the conditions of

  22   confinement would be changed so that El Hage and Mamdouh Salim

  23   could share a cell.  Thereafter, the other defendants asked

  24   for the same modification of conditions and it was agreed by

  25   all parties that defendants El Hage, Salim, Mohamed Odeh,


   1   Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali and Khalfan Mohamed would

   2   share cells on a rotating basis.

   3            The government offers that stipulation, 4318, and if

   4   we could display 4012 also at this time.

   5            THE COURT:  Received.

   6            (Government Exhibit 4318 received in evidence)

   7            MR. GARCIA:  Your Honor, the government rests.

   8            THE COURT:  The government rests.

   9            MR. RUHNKE:  We would like to begin our presentation

  10   by reading to the jury a with stipulation marked KKM stip 4.

  11            It is hereby stipulated and agreed by and between the

  12   United States of America, by Mary Jo White, United States

  13   Attorney for the Southern District of New York, by Patrick

  14   Fitzgerald and Michael Garcia, of counsel, and the defendant

  15   Khalfan Khamis Mohamed, with the consent of his attorneys, as

  16   follows.

  17            1.  On November 1 and 2, 2000, the Federal Bureau of

  18   Investigation sought search warrants in the investigation of

  19   the assault on corrections officer Louis Pepe that occurred on

  20   the 10 South unit of the Metropolitan Correctional Center.

  21            2.  In order to secure the requested search warrants,

  22   it was necessary for a special agent of the FBI to submit an

  23   affidavit to a magistrate judge of the United States District

  24   Court for the Southern District of New York, establishing

  25   probable cause to justify the search.  On November 1 and


   1   November 2, affidavits were submitted to Magistrate Judge

   2   James C. Francis IV.  Each of the affidavits contained the

   3   following paragraphs as sworn to by the FBI agent who signed

   4   the affidavit.  "I have personally participated in this

   5   investigation and am familiar with the information contained

   6   in this affidavit either through personal observations or

   7   through discussions with other law enforcement officers.

   8   Because this affidavit is made for the limited purpose of

   9   obtaining a search warrant, I have not set forth every fact

  10   that I have learned during the course of this investigation."

  11            Right outside of cell 6 on unit 10 South of the

  12   Metropolitan Correctional Center, law enforcement officers

  13   recovered two bottles containing what appeared to be hot sauce

  14   (Such as Tobasco).  The liquid inside the bottles had been

  15   sprayed at the responding correctional officers by Salim when

  16   they arrived at the cell and may have been sprayed at the CO

  17   before he was stabbed.  In addition, the responding

  18   corrections officers observed that liquid from the bottles had

  19   been sprayed all over the walls inside and outside the cell.

  20            4.  In an affidavit in support of a request for a

  21   warrant seeking blood samples from Mr. Salim and Mr. Mohamed,

  22   the following paragraph was sworn to by the FBI agent who

  23   signed the affidavit:  "After a struggle, Salim and Mohamed

  24   were subdued by the responding corrections officers.  When

  25   Salim was subdued by the corrections officers, a key belonging


   1   to the CO was found at Salim's feet.  The CO was taken to a

   2   hospital and has undergone surgery.  The following text is

   3   handwritten.  During the struggle Salim and Mohamed sustained

   4   injuries and both men bled."

   5            It is further stipulated and agreed that the

   6   stipulation may be read to the jury and received in evidence

   7   as a defense exhibit.  I so offer the exhibit, your Honor.

   8            THE COURT:  Yes, received.

   9            (Defense Exhibit KKM stip 4 received in evidence)

  10            MR. STERN:  We call Joseph Rementer.


  12        called as a witness by the defense,

  13        having been duly sworn, testified as follows:


  15   BY MR. STERN:

  16   Q.  Good morning, Mr. Rementer.

  17   A.  Good morning.

  18   Q.  Mr. Rementer, where are you employed?

  19   A.  The Metropolitan Correctional Center.

  20   Q.  What is your job there?

  21   A.  Special investigative agent.

  22   Q.  How long have you worked at the Metropolitan Correctional

  23   Center?

  24   A.  Since December '89.

  25   Q.  Do you hold any particular rank there?


   1   A.  GS12.

   2   Q.  When you say you are a special investigative agent, tell

   3   this jury what that means.

   4   A.  I conduct investigations on inmate cases, staff cases,

   5   monitor security threat groups, gangs, within the institution.

   6   Q.  Let me take you back to November 1, 2001, around 10:15 in

   7   the morning.  Tell me what happened around that time.

   8   A.  The control center announced a body alarm on 10 South.

   9   Q.  What is a body alarm?

  10   A.  It is a device that is connected to a radio.  Either it's

  11   pushed or when it is tilted to the side it activates.

  12   Q.  What happened?

  13   A.  They made an announcement for a body alarm 10 South.

  14   Normal procedure is to respond.  I was on the third floor at

  15   the time.  I went to the elevator, got on the elevator, went

  16   up to 9 South in order to get through to 10 South.  Once in

  17   the sally port of 10 South, that's where we were held because

  18   the officer wasn't there to open the door.

  19   Q.  When you say that's where we were held, were other

  20   officers there with you?

  21   A.  Yes, sir.

  22   Q.  Who was there?

  23   A.  The only one I can remember is Jenkins.  There were other

  24   people there but he is the one that I remember, because I was

  25   directly behind Robert Jenkins.


   1   Q.  Go ahead.  What happened next?

   2   A.  After sometime went by, emergency keys were brought up to

   3   open the door of 10 South.  Once the door was opened, we

   4   entered the unit.  Myself -- Jenkins saw an inmate through the

   5   window before the door was opened.  I remember Jenkins saying

   6   I see one, he's out of the cell, he has keys.  So when the

   7   door was opened, in my mind I thought there may be other cell

   8   doors open, other inmates out of their cells.  So I took like

   9   a crouching fast walk back to cell 6, in the meantime yelling

  10   at the top of my voice to hit the deck, hit the ground, in the

  11   event other inmates were out of their cells.

  12   Q.  Do you recall who went with you as you went back towards

  13   cell 6?

  14   A.  No, sir, because like I said, I took a cautious fast walk

  15   and a lot of staff were passing me, running.

  16   Q.  Go ahead.

  17   A.  Once I arrived back to cell 6, I was on the side of where

  18   the cell door is.  As soon as I walked up I saw Roderick

  19   Jenkins and inmate Mohamed fighting between the plexiglass.

  20   Q.  When you say between the plexiglass, tell me exactly what

  21   you saw.

  22   A.  Struggling with the plexiglass, fighting in between it,

  23   looks like to get at each other.

  24   Q.  Were they both on the same side of the plexiglass?

  25   A.  No, opposite sides.


   1   Q.  Was the plexiglass broken when you saw it?

   2   A.  It broke.

   3   Q.  When you first saw it was the plexiglass broken?

   4   A.  No.

   5   Q.  Go ahead.  What happened?

   6   A.  I saw inmate -- this is all within seconds.  Once that

   7   happened, Salim, inmate Salim came out of the cell, his left

   8   side first, because the door opens this way and the wall is

   9   right there.  Came out of the cell first and it appeared to me

  10   that he had two bottles, bear bottles above his head,

  11   squirting staff, along with myself.

  12   Q.  Squirting staff along with yourself?

  13   A.  Yes.

  14   Q.  What happened next?

  15   A.  Staff that were beside me automatically rushed Salim, and

  16   in my mind when that door opened, in my mind I was convinced

  17   that other cell doors must have been opened.  So I turned to

  18   staff behind me, yelling to check all cell doors, check all

  19   doors.  That's when I turned around and I started to check all

  20   the doors all the way around the unit to the front of the

  21   unit.

  22   Q.  To ensure that no other inmates could come out and join

  23   whatever was going on?

  24   A.  Absolutely, sir.

  25   Q.  After this incident was over, did you play any further


   1   role in the investigation of this case?

   2   A.  No, not the investigation.

   3   Q.  Did you, for example, make a crime scene video?

   4   A.  Yes, sir.

   5   Q.  Why don't you tell me about what happened then.

   6   A.  Shortly after the incident was over, I was directed by

   7   Captain Nelson Aponte to conduct a crime scene video.

   8   Q.  Who was the camera person while that video was being made?

   9   A.  Lance Maiden.

  10   Q.  In that video, did you say what it was you had seen?

  11   A.  Yes, sir.

  12   Q.  How long after the incident did you make that video?

  13   A.  I would say approximately within an hour.

  14   Q.  Did you videotape the crime scene in addition to telling

  15   what you had seen?

  16   A.  Yes, sir.

  17   Q.  Is there anything else you videotaped in addition to the

  18   crime scene?

  19   A.  Videotaped the two inmates.

  20   Q.  Where was Khalfan Mohamed when you videotaped him?

  21   A.  I believe Mohamed was on 9 South in the kitchen area.

  22   Q.  Where was Mamdouh Salim?

  23   A.  He was in the health services unit on the second floor.

  24   Q.  We are going to show a videotape marked KKM VT2 -- I think

  25   you have it on your monitor there.  When it is done, I will


   1   ask you some questions.

   2   A.  Yes, sir.

   3            MR. STERN:  Judge, I offer that in evidence.

   4            MR. GARCIA:  No objection.

   5            THE COURT:  Received.

   6            (Defense Exhibit KKM VT2 received in evidence)

   7            (Videotape played)

   8            MR. RUHNKE:  Your Honor, we are going to start it

   9   again and play it as loudly as it can be played, and we would

  10   ask the jurors to listen as carefully as they can.

  11            THE COURT:  Would it be better to play on a regular

  12   cassette player?

  13            MR. RUHNKE:  The problem is volume.

  14            THE COURT:  We will take a 10-minute recess and take

  15   care of the techniques.  Mr. Ruhnke, you can use this time to

  16   take care of the other matter.

  17            MR. RUHNKE:  Yes.

  18            (Recess)

  19            THE COURT:  Play it again?

  20   Q.  Mr. Rementer, that videotape we just saw was a videotape

  21   you made within an hour or so of this incident occurring,

  22   right?

  23   A.  Yes, sir.

  24   Q.  You saw Salim in that videotape -- I know it was difficult

  25   to see from where you were, but you have seen it before,


   1   correct?

   2   A.  Yes, sir.

   3   Q.  And you have described Salim in the past as having

   4   devilish eyebrows?

   5   A.  Excuse me, sir.

   6   Q.  You have described Salim as having devilish eyebrows?

   7   A.  I believe so.

   8            THE COURT:  What does that mean?  What do you mean by

   9   that?  Devilish?

  10            THE WITNESS:  His appearance.

  11   Q.  You mean by that that he has very arched eyebrows,

  12   correct, sir?

  13   A.  Yes, sir.

  14   Q.  That's the way you described him?

  15   A.  Yes, sir.

  16   Q.  That distinguishes him from Khalfan Mohamed, correct?

  17   A.  Yes, sir.

  18   Q.  You also said that in running out of that cell he had a

  19   crazed look on his face, did you not?

  20   A.  Yes, sir.

  21   Q.  In addition to the videotape we have just seen, you filled

  22   out a Bureau of Prisons report in connection with this case,

  23   didn't you?

  24   A.  Excuse me, sir.

  25   Q.  You filled out a report that was part of your job with the


   1   Department of Justice Bureau of Prisons.  I am going to show

   2   it to you.  This is a document marked KKM10B.  Is that a

   3   report which you signed?

   4   A.  Yes, sir.

   5   Q.  That report accurately reflects what occurred on that day,

   6   does it not?

   7   A.  To the best of my knowledge, yes.

   8            MR. STERN:  I would ask that be admitted into

   9   evidence as KKM10B.

  10            MR. GARCIA:  No objection.

  11            THE COURT:  Received.

  12            (Defense Exhibit KKH10B received in evidence)

  13            MR. STERN:  I have no other questions.  Thank you.

  14            MR. GARCIA:  Nothing.  Thank you.

  15            THE COURT:  Thank you.  You may step down.

  16            (Witness excused)

  17            MR. RUHNKE:  We call Mark Cunningham.


  19        called as a witness by the defense,

  20        having been duly sworn, testified as follows:


  22   BY MR. RUHNKE:

  23   Q.  Dr. Cunningham, would you tell the jury what the nature of

  24   your occupation is, please.

  25   A.  I am a clinical and forensic psychologist in private


   1   practice.

   2   Q.  In this particular case, were you asked, based on your

   3   knowledge, training and experience, to provide testimony to

   4   the jury identifying conditions of confinement and security

   5   options that the Bureau of Prisons may resort to where an

   6   inmate is deemed by the Bureau of Prisons to be a threat to

   7   the lives or safety of other inmates or other Bureau of

   8   Prisons staff?

   9   A.  Yes, I was.

  10   Q.  How long have you been a psychologist?

  11   A.  I have been a psychologist for about 23 years now.

  12   Q.  Could you please explain to the jury what a clinical

  13   psychologist does.

  14   A.  Clinical psychology is the evaluation and treatment of

  15   psychological disorders.

  16   Q.  You referred to yourself also not only as a clinical

  17   psychologist but also a forensic psychologist.  What does a

  18   forensic psychologist do?

  19   A.  Forensic psychology is the application of psychological

  20   research and techniques to legal issues, all the way from

  21   child custody evaluations to evaluations of psychological

  22   status or damages in civil cases.  In criminal court it might

  23   include things like evaluations of competency to stand trial

  24   or mental state at time of offense or sentencing

  25   determinations.


   1   Q.  Are you primarily at the present time, would you describe

   2   yourself primarily as a clinical psychologist or primarily as

   3   a forensic psychologist?

   4   A.  In my professional activities I am primarily a forensic

   5   psychologist.

   6   Q.  Are you licensed as a psychologist?

   7   A.  Yes, I am.

   8   Q.  Where are you licensed?

   9   A.  I am licensed as a psychologist in Texas, Louisiana,

  10   Arkansas, Tennessee, South Carolina, Indiana, Illinois,

  11   Colorado, Idaho, Oregon -- there are 11 in all.  I might have

  12   left one out.

  13   Q.  Where do you practice from?  Where is your home and where

  14   is your office?

  15   A.  My home is in Abilene, Texas.

  16   Q.  How long have you been licensed as a psychologist?

  17   A.  I was first licensed in the state of Connecticut about 20,

  18   21 years ago, and then was licensed in Texas from 1981, and

  19   the other licenses have been since 1995.

  20   Q.  Could you give the jury, please, a brief summary of your

  21   educational background as relates to psychology.

  22   A.  Certainly.  I received my undergraduate degree with high

  23   honors from Abilene Christian College.  I majored in

  24   psychology and mass communications.  I then attended graduate

  25   school at Oklahoma State University in a doctoral program in


   1   clinical psychology that is accredited by the American

   2   Psychological Association for that training.

   3   Q.  Were you awarded a doctorate degree in psychology by

   4   Oklahoma State University?

   5   A.  Yes, I was.

   6   Q.  What year was that?

   7   A.  That was in 1977, December of '77.

   8   Q.  You mentioned that the program at OSU, Oklahoma State

   9   University, is accredited by the American Psychological

  10   Association.

  11   A.  That is correct.

  12   Q.  What is the significance of that?

  13   A.  There are a limited number of programs that are accredited

  14   by the APA, the American Psychological Association, and it

  15   requires extensive review of faculty and research activities

  16   and library and practical activities to insure the highest

  17   quality training.  Because there are a limited number of those

  18   programs, they are extremely competitive in their entrance

  19   requirements.

  20   Q.  Following your graduation and the award, did you do an

  21   internship?

  22   A.  Yes, sir, I did an internship with the National Naval

  23   Medical Center in Bethesda, Maryland.  That's the large naval

  24   hospital on the outskirts of Washington, D.C.

  25   Q.  When you were doing that internship, were you a naval


   1   officer?

   2   A.  Yes, I was.  Most of that internship was before the Ph.D

   3   was awarded, as part of the requirements for that degree.

   4   Q.  After your internship, what was your first real job as a

   5   clinical psychologist?

   6   A.  I was assigned as a staff clinical psychologist at the

   7   Naval Submarine Medical Center, in Groton, Connecticut, which

   8   at that time was the primary Atlantic submarine base for the

   9   navy, and was an active naval officer and clinical

  10   psychologist and held that billet for about three and a half

  11   years.

  12   Q.  While you were stationed at the submarine base in

  13   Connecticut, did you continue to engage in professional

  14   activities outside your duties as a naval officer?

  15   A.  Yes, I did.  I taught part-time as a college teacher in

  16   both the extension program that the navy offered at a local

  17   community college, and I also did two years of part-time

  18   postdoctoral study at Yale University, in a program accredited

  19   by the National Institute of Mental Health.

  20   Q.  When did you leave the navy?

  21   A.  I left the navy in 1981, approximately June.

  22   Q.  What was your rank?

  23   A.  I was an O3, lieutenant, corresponds to army captain.

  24   Q.  After you left the navy, what did you in your career?

  25   A.  I accepted an academic teaching position at Hardin-Simmons


   1   University, a small college in Abilene, Texas, and was a

   2   full-time assistant professor of psychology, I think it was,

   3   the lowest rank, for about two years and had a practice that I

   4   began during that same time period.

   5   Q.  During that period of time you said that you began a

   6   practice.  Just tell the ladies and gentlemen what kinds of

   7   things do you do as a clinical psychologist in private

   8   practice?

   9   A.  A variety of things.  Evaluation of psychological

  10   disorders, most commonly depression, anxiety disorders,

  11   relationship problems, psychological testing.  At that time

  12   only occasional consultations that were related to legal

  13   issues.

  14   Q.  Have you published articles in the areas of clinical and

  15   forensic psychology?

  16   A.  Yes, sir.

  17   Q.  Are these in what are called peer-reviewed journals?

  18   A.  Yes.  I have some that are in nonpeer-reviewed

  19   publications.  The large body are in peer-reviewed

  20   publications.

  21   Q.  What is the significance of peer-reviewed publications?

  22   A.  Peer-reviewed publications are the primary way that

  23   scientists communicate with each other.  The way it works is,

  24   a scholarly paper or piece of research is written up and

  25   submitted to the editor of a peer review journal.  He along


   1   with his own review sends it out to several national experts

   2   who specialize in the area of the paper and they review it to

   3   evaluate its scholarly potential and whether it adds

   4   significantly to available research and perspectives about

   5   that research, whether it adequately accounts for the data in

   6   the field, and if they identify it as meeting those criteria,

   7   they may recommend it to be published in the journal.  That's

   8   that review.  It's the peer review before it is accepted for

   9   publication.

  10   Q.  Are a large number of the articles that scientists and

  11   other professionals submit to peer review journals rejected

  12   after this peer review process?

  13   A.  Yes.  By the leading journals, in the leading psychology

  14   journals about 15 percent of the papers that are submitted are

  15   accepted for publication.

  16   Q.  How many of these peer review papers have you authored or

  17   coauthored?

  18   A.  In the forensic psychology area in major journals, five

  19   since 1978.  Two more are in press, which means they have been

  20   accepted but have not yet actually been published.  And then

  21   three edited book chapters are currently in press.

  22   Q.  Are you board certified in any particular area, and if

  23   yes, would you explain to the jury what it means to be board

  24   certified.

  25   A.  Yes, I am.  I am board certified in forensic psychology by


   1   the American Board of Professional Psychology, which is the

   2   only organization recognized by the American Psychological

   3   Association to provide board certification in clinical

   4   psychology and forensic psychology and some other specialties.

   5   Unlike medicine, board certification in psychology is a

   6   relatively unusual credential that rather than being pursued

   7   after training and residency is more typically sought in

   8   mid-career and intended to identify the highest levels of

   9   professional practice.  As a result, it is a very arduous

  10   credentialing process.  In forensic psychology that involves

  11   first obtaining a sufficient amount of forensic experience and

  12   continuing education or residency training specific to

  13   forensic psychology, and having your license in good standing

  14   and that sort of thing.  If you meet those gateway criteria

  15   you are allowed to submit a work sample which represents two

  16   reports or two cases that you have been involved in that are

  17   extensively supplemented by case law and research, so that it

  18   is almost more -- in the one that I submitted almost more like

  19   a master's thesis.  I spent three or four months working

  20   extensively on that project.  I had 8 or 10 pages of

  21   references.  That work sample is then reviewed by two board

  22   certified forensic psychologists who identify whether or not

  23   that sample represents a sufficient degree of sophistication

  24   and expertise in forensic psychology.  If the work sample is

  25   accepted, then you are allowed to sit for an oral exam that is


   1   submitted before three or four board certified psychologists,

   2   lasts three or four hours, and they can ask anything related

   3   to the field of forensic psychology.

   4   Q.  Did you take that exam and pass it?  Are you now board

   5   certified as a psychologist?

   6   A.  Yes, I did.

   7   Q.  Do you know how many board certified psychologists there

   8   are in the entire United States?

   9   A.  Fewer than 200.

  10   Q.  Does the Bureau of Prisons to your knowledge employ

  11   psychologists with Ph.D's on their staff?

  12   A.  Yes.

  13   Q.  Do you know approximately how many?

  14   A.  Approximately 350.

  15   Q.  Do you know how many of those happen to be board

  16   certified?

  17   A.  Not precisely.  I have met some of the ones that are.

  18   There are a handful, perhaps 5 to 10 anyway.  I think I have

  19   met four or five of them.

  20   Q.  Have you taught other psychologists in various continuing

  21   education programs?

  22   A.  Yes, I have.  One of the primary aims of the organization

  23   of board certified forensic psychologists is to improve the

  24   standard of practice of psychology that comes into the

  25   courtroom, which doesn't mean training people how to talk


   1   better, be persuasive, but instead equips them with the best

   2   knowledge of what it is they are evaluating and the best

   3   research that can be brought to bear.  I have been invited to

   4   participate as part of a teaching faculty for the American

   5   Academy of Forensic Psychology and have provided full day

   6   workshops on capital sentencing evaluations to psychologists

   7   around the country.

   8   Q.  Have you on occasion provided continuing education to

   9   prosecutors?

  10   A.  Yes, I have.  Not in an oral form.  One of my publications

  11   that I coauthored was published in the Prosecutor's Brief,

  12   which is the magazine that goes out to all the district

  13   attorneys in California.  That was offered to that publication

  14   with the interest of increasing their knowledge and

  15   sophistication about a particular forensic issue.

  16   Q.  Do you continue to attend continuing education programs as

  17   a regular practice?

  18   A.  Yes, I do, very intensively.

  19   Q.  Approximately how many hours a year do you think you use

  20   to supplement your education with continuing education

  21   seminar-type programs?

  22   A.  Depending on the year of the last five years, anywhere

  23   from 60 to a hundred hours a year.

  24   Q.  Is there a requirement by the, for example, Texas State

  25   Court of Examiners as to how many hours of continuing


   1   education a psychologist must take in order to maintain his

   2   license?

   3   A.  Yes, sir.

   4   Q.  What is this?

   5   A.  I believe it is 12 hours per year.

   6   Q.  Do you belong to numerous professional organizations?

   7   A.  Yes, sir.

   8   Q.  Have you ever testified in any military, criminal or

   9   family civil court proceedings?

  10   A.  All those.

  11   Q.  How many times have you testified?

  12   A.  Over 150 times.

  13   Q.  Can you give us a rough sample of courts, locations where

  14   you have testified?

  15   A.  Certainly.  I have testified in federal district courts in

  16   Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, Alabama, North Carolina, Virginia,

  17   Illinois, Colorado.

  18   Q.  Have you also testified in various state courts, part of

  19   the state court systems?

  20   A.  Yes, I have.

  21   Q.  In what states?

  22   A.  Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, South Carolina, Virginia,

  23   Tennessee, Illinois, cans sass, Oregon, Idaho, Colorado, New

  24   Mexico.  There are some other states as well.  I apologize.

  25   Q.  When you have been offered as an expert witnesses in 150


   1   prior court appearances, has there ever been an occasion where

   2   the court did not qualify you as an expert in clinical and/or

   3   forensic psychology?

   4   A.  No, sir, I have always been qualified.

   5   Q.  Are you paid as an expert for your time?

   6   A.  Yes, I am paid for my time.

   7   Q.  Do you from time to time get consulted by attorneys and

   8   other professionals but not testify?

   9   A.  Yes, sir, that's retained.

  10   Q.  Have you ever been called to testify by a prosecutor?

  11   A.  Yes, sir.

  12   Q.  In a criminal case?

  13   A.  Yes, I have.

  14   Q.  Have you ever been called to testify by a prosecutor in a

  15   capital case?

  16   A.  No, sir, I have not.

  17   Q.  Would you be willing to testify in a capital case if you

  18   were called by the prosecution?

  19   A.  Yes, sir.

  20   Q.  Are you personally opposed to the death penalty?

  21   A.  No, sir, I have no --

  22            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, your Honor.  Relevance.

  23            THE COURT:  Sustained.

  24            MR. RUHNKE:  On the issue of perhaps bias, your

  25   Honor.


   1            THE COURT:  Sustained.

   2   Q.  I am going to show you a document marked our next number.

   3   Showing the witness what has been marked -- if I may approach,

   4   your Honor.

   5            THE COURT:  Yes.

   6   Q.  -- KKM26 for identification.  What is KKM26?

   7   A.  This is my curriculum vitae, or my resume.

   8            MR. RUHNKE:  Your Honor, I offer KKM26.

   9            MR. FITZGERALD:  No objection.

  10            THE COURT:  Received.

  11            (Defense Exhibit KKM26 received in evidence)

  12            MR. RUHNKE:  I also offer Dr. Cunningham as an expert

  13   in forensic psychology.

  14            MR. FITZGERALD:  May I have a brief voir dire, your

  15   Honor?

  16            THE COURT:  Voir dire.



  19   Q.  Good morning.

  20   A.  Good morning.

  21   Q.  I am Pat Fitzgerald.  I just have a few brief questions.

  22   So we are clear, you did not perform a psychological

  23   evaluation of the defendant Khalfan Mohamed, correct?

  24   A.  That is correct.

  25   Q.  You are not offering psychological evaluation testimony of


   1   him personally, correct?

   2   A.  That is correct.

   3   Q.  So we are clear, in forensic psychology there is no

   4   certification in assessing the ability of prisons to handle

   5   dangerous inmates, correct?

   6   A.  Not a subspecialty, no, sir.

   7   Q.  So we are also clear, you have never worked for the Bureau

   8   of Prisons?

   9   A.  That is correct.

  10   Q.  And you have never worked inside a prison other than to

  11   visit, correct?

  12   A.  Other than going in to do consultations, I have never been

  13   employed by a prison.

  14   Q.  So your knowledge of how a prison works is based upon your

  15   review of documents, a review of the documents and in some

  16   cases a tour of the prison?

  17   A.  That is correct.

  18            MR. FITZGERALD:  Thank you.  Nothing further.  No

  19   objection.

  20   BY MR. RUHNKE:

  21   Q.  Dr. Cunningham, as part of your work as a forensic

  22   psychologist, have you specifically made an effort to research

  23   and learn about the kinds of conditions of confinement and the

  24   kinds of security measures that can be used to control inmates

  25   which a prison system such as the Bureau of Prisons itself


   1   believes to be somebody who presents a danger to inmates or

   2   staff?

   3   A.  Yes, I have.

   4   Q.  Specifically, have you made a study of the United States

   5   Bureau of Prisons system?

   6   A.  Yes, I have.

   7   Q.  Have you visited federal prisons?

   8   A.  I have visited ADX Florence, the super-maximum facility in

   9   Colorado.

  10            MR. RUHNKE:  If we could have the first power film

  11   slide displayed.  When we are done we will print out a set of

  12   these slides and offer them as a set of exhibits.

  13   Q.  Do you see the first slide?

  14   A.  Yes, sir.

  15   Q.  Are there various custody options and what are they in the

  16   federal prison system?

  17   A.  There is a range of custody options, from minimum security

  18   facilities, as depicted at the top of the screen, through low

  19   security, medium security, up to US penitentiaries or high

  20   security.  As the security level increases, the intensity of

  21   the perimeter around the facility increases.  As you get up to

  22   US penitentiary level there are gun towers.  The intensity of

  23   staffing inside the prison increases.  There are more

  24   concentric layers of security.  So as you are moving up this

  25   ladder toward the US penitentiaries, the security is being


   1   heightened and the staffing is more intense.

   2   Q.  What is the source of your information here?

   3   A.  This information comes from US Bureau of Prison

   4   publications as well as from the testimony of various Bureau

   5   of Prisons wardens that I have reviewed as well.

   6   Q.  Are you familiar with the level of custody that -- let me

   7   back up a moment.

   8            Have you studied the cases or are you familiar with

   9   the cases of 25 federal defendants who have been charged with

  10   capital offenses, death penalty offenses, who have received

  11   life sentences, are you familiar with their conditions of

  12   confinement and level of custody?

  13   A.  I am familiar with that data up through 1988, which is

  14   when the U.S. Attorney's Office supplied the followup data

  15   that existed at that time.

  16   Q.  Did you say 1988 or 1998?

  17   A.  1998.

  18   Q.  In the case of inmates in that situation, what in every

  19   case is the custody level?

  20   A.  They were at a US penitentiary level or higher.

  21   Q.  Why is level of custody important to the initial question

  22   to be asked, which is the capability of forming conditions of

  23   confinement that will deal with inmates who are identified by

  24   Bureau of Prisons as dangerous?

  25   A.  Risk is always a function of context of confinement, and


   1   as the context of confinement becomes more intense, becomes

   2   stricter, opportunities to act out in a seriously violent

   3   fashion are restricted.  So it is critically important in

   4   identifying what the relative risk is to ask at what level of

   5   confinement, at what condition of confinement will this person

   6   be held.

   7   Q.  Are you familiar with the Bureau of Prisons' own policy

   8   statements on the level of confinement for longterm inmates?

   9            If I could have the next slide, please.

  10   A.  Yes, sir.

  11   Q.  Would you explain to the jury, there is a document quoted

  12   there, or statement quoted there.  Would you read it to the

  13   jury and explain where it comes from and what it is.

  14   A.  A male inmate with more than 30 years remaining to serve,

  15   including nonparolable life sentences, shall be housed in a

  16   high security level institution unless the PSF, meaning public

  17   safety factor, has been weighed.  That comes from the security

  18   designation and custody classification manual number 5100.07,

  19   on page 4.

  20   Q.  Does that mean in sum and substance that someone serving a

  21   life sentence will never be dropped to a custody level below

  22   high security level institution?

  23   A.  That is correct.

  24   Q.  In preparation for your testimony today, were you provided

  25   with information about the sentencing and current conditions


   1   of custody of other inmates within the Bureau of Prisons

   2   system who have been identified as bombers or terrorists

   3   within the United States Bureau of Prisons system?

   4   A.  Yes, I was.

   5            MR. RUHNKE:  Could we have the next slide, please.

   6   Q.  I am showing you on the screen a list headed after

   7   sentencing commission bombers and terrorists in BOP, and there

   8   is a listing of the inmates' names, months within the prison,

   9   most recent facility, which is a three-letter abbreviation,

  10   and conduct indicating the number of assaults committed by

  11   that inmate.  Is that correct?

  12   A.  Since their entry into BOP, after sentencing, that is

  13   correct.

  14   Q.  Starting with an example, referring to the first inmate,

  15   Ahmed Mohamed Ajaj, it says months in BOP 83.

  16   A.  I am sorry, that should be '98, as you look on the screen.

  17   Q.  I am sorry, we have a noncorrected copy.  So that person

  18   has been in custody for 98 months, is that correct?

  19   A.  That is correct, since approximately March of 1993.

  20   Q.  It has zero assaults, is that correct?

  21   A.  It has one minor assault.

  22   Q.  Do you have the actual write-ups for these inmates?

  23   A.  Yes, I do.  Well, for these inmates I don't have the

  24   actual write-ups that occurred.  I have a summary document

  25   that I see what they were charged with and what the sanction


   1   was, what punishment was brought to bear.

   2   Q.  Were those documents provided by the Bureau of Prisons,

   3   the information provided by the Bureau of Prisons?

   4   A.  That is correct.

   5   Q.  Do you know that Mr. Ajaj is one of the defendants

   6   involved in the World Trade Center bombing?  Is that what you

   7   have been informed?

   8   A.  That is what I am informed.

   9   Q.  The same is true for Mohammed Salameh, Mahmud Abouhalima,

  10   Niyad Ayyad.  These are inmates serving time right now in the

  11   Bureau of Prisons for convictions in connection with the World

  12   Trade Center bombing?

  13   A.  That is correct.

  14   Q.  Going down to the next group of inmates, stopping at the

  15   name Ramzi Ahmed Yousef, are these inmates to your information

  16   who were sentenced and convicted in connection with a plan to

  17   blow up landmarks and bridges and tunnels in the New York City

  18   area of the United States?

  19   A.  That is correct.

  20   Q.  The final two inmates.  Theodore John Kaczynski, that's

  21   the Una bomber?

  22   A.  Yes, sir.

  23   Q.  The final inmate on the list is Terry Lynn Nichols.  Do

  24   you know if Terry Lynn Nichols is still in Bureau of Prisons

  25   custody or where he happens to be now?


   1   A.  He is with the Oklahoma Department of Corrections.

   2   Q.  He is awaiting trial in the Oklahoma City bombing?

   3   A.  That is correct.  I am not sure if that is Oklahoma DOC or

   4   Metropolitan Correctional Center or jail.

   5   Q.  Terry Nichols was the codefendant to Timothy McVeigh in

   6   the Oklahoma City bombing, is that correct?

   7   A.  That is correct.

   8   Q.  There is one defendant here, Victor Alvarez, who has,

   9   according to your summary, 10 minor assaults and two dangerous

  10   weapon assaults and one serious assault -- two possessions of

  11   a dangerous weapon and one serious assault of a corrections

  12   officer.  Is there a reference in his file to his mental

  13   condition?

  14   A.  Yes, there is.

  15   Q.  How does the Bureau of Prisons define him or classify

  16   Mr. Alvarez?

  17   A.  He has been designated as mentally ill.

  18   Q.  The facility listed is SPG.

  19   A.  Yes, sir.

  20   Q.  What does SPG stand for?

  21   A.  It stands for Springfield.

  22   Q.  Had Mr. Alvarez been at the facility in a United States

  23   penitentiary at some point?

  24   A.  Yes, he had.

  25   Q.  Is Springfield a hospital for federal prisoners?


   1   A.  Yes, it is.

   2   Q.  The gentleman I stopped before, Ramzi Ahmed Yousef?

   3   A.  Yes.

   4   Q.  Is he to your knowledge someone who has been described as

   5   the mastermind of the World Trade Center bombing?

   6   A.  That is correct.

   7   Q.  How long has he been in Bureau of Prisons custody in the

   8   sense of having been sentenced and actually in a prison

   9   setting as opposed to being a pretrial detainee?

  10   A.  Thirty-nine months since his admission up to May of this

  11   year, which is how long the data was that was provided.

  12   Q.  FLM, is that a designation that stands for a particular

  13   federal institution?

  14   A.  Yes, it does.

  15   Q.  What institution did does it stand for?

  16   A.  It stands for ADX or Administrative Maximum at Florence,

  17   Colorado, or super-maximum.

  18   Q.  Is Theodore Kaczynski also at the super-maximum or

  19   administrative maximum institution?

  20   A.  That is correct, according to the documents provided to

  21   me.

  22   Q.  Was Terry Nichols in that institution prior to his being

  23   shipped out and turned over to Oklahoma to stand trial in the

  24   state of Oklahoma?

  25   A.  That is correct.


   1   Q.  Are you familiar with the facility at Florence, Colorado?

   2   First let's have the next slide and talk about that for a

   3   moment.  What does this next slide show?

   4   A.  This is a summary of the analysis that you saw in the

   5   previous slide, a breakdown that summarizes it.  There is a

   6   total of 17 of these individuals whose offenses are of a

   7   bombing or terrorist nature.  They average from 34 to 98

   8   months in prison.  The average time served is about 63 months.

   9   The total time at risk, in other words, the total number of

  10   years that these individuals have now served in prison is

  11   approximately 89 years.  Of the 17, 9 have no write-ups after

  12   their sentencing and formal admission into BOP.  Eleven of the

  13   17 have three or fewer write-ups.  Fourteen of the 17 have no

  14   assaults.  Sixteen of 17 have no serious assaults.  The single

  15   inmate with a serious assault was Mr. Alvarez, who was

  16   designated as mentally ill and transferred to the Springfield

  17   hospital facility.

  18   Q.  If we could have the next slide, I am going to ask you,

  19   would you describe to the jury what a US penitentiary cell

  20   looks like at the US penitentiary at Florence, Colorado.

  21   A.  Yes, sir.  In the Florence complex, it is an FCI, a

  22   Federal Correctional Institution, and a US penitentiary.

  23   Q.  Stop a moment.  What is an FCI and how does it differ from

  24   a penitentiary?

  25   A.  FCI is a level of security down from a US penitentiary.


   1   There is one of those facilities there.  There is a US

   2   penitentiary there.  There are nine US penitentiaries in the

   3   Bureau of Prisons.  Then there is a third facility of the ADX

   4   Florence, the maximum security.

   5            This depicts a cell in the US penitentiary in

   6   Florence, a typical cell.  You will notice it is a double

   7   cell.  There are two inmates who would live in this cell.

   8   There are the bunk beds, a storage cabinet in the foreground,

   9   a toilet in the background, a sink, a stainless mirror.  There

  10   is a small table against the back wall.  Then at the top of

  11   the cell you see an entranceway that will take you back behind

  12   the sink and toilet, a pipe chase that allows work to be done

  13   on the plumbing without physically having to go into the cell.

  14   So it is an access point.

  15   Q.  The area depicted by the toilet, that is the outer

  16   boundary of the cell; is that correct?

  17   A.  That is correct.  The cell door would be just in front of

  18   the toilet.

  19   Q.  How would the cell door open and close?

  20   A.  That would be a sliding door.

  21   Q.  With bars or solid?

  22   A.  I don't recall.

  23   Q.  Have you seen cells like this in person?

  24   A.  I have seen cells like this.  I have not been in the USP

  25   in Florence.


   1   Q.  Have you been at the administrative maximum unit at

   2   Florence?

   3   A.  Yes, I have.

   4   Q.  Are inmates, to your knowledge, locked down for most of

   5   the day in US penitentiaries?

   6   A.  No, sir.

   7   Q.  What do they do in US penitentiaries most of the day?

   8   A.  During the day they may have a job that they go to.  There

   9   is educational services and other kinds of rehabilitation

  10   programming.  There is a recreation time.  They go to a mess

  11   hall, a central area to eat.  So a good part of the day they

  12   are being programmed in one fashion or another.

  13   Q.  Go to the next slide.  You made reference to ADX Florence

  14   and super-maximum custody.  First of all, where is the

  15   institution that is referred to as Florence or Florence ADMAX?

  16   Where is it located in the United States?

  17   A.  Florence, Colorado, is southwest of Colorado Springs.

  18   Q.  About how far from Colorado Springs?

  19   A.  About 60 miles.  It is 20, 30 miles west before Pueblo,

  20   Colorado.  So you have Pueblo, Florence, and Colorado Springs

  21   is here, another 60 miles up the road.

  22   Q.  What kind of area is it?  How would you describe the area

  23   surrounding this prison?  Is it a populated area?  Is it

  24   urban?  How would you describe it?

  25   A.  It is very sparsely populated.  It is arid, high desert,


   1   rolling area of the foothills of the Rocky Mountains.

   2            MR. RUHNKE:  Your Honor, if we could switch to the

   3   Elmo for a moment and display a document called Elmo 23.  Your

   4   Honor, I would offer 23 in evidence.

   5            MR. FITZGERALD:  No objection.

   6            THE COURT:  Received.

   7            (Defense Exhibit KKM23 received in evidence)

   8   Q.  If we could zoom in on the schematic portion of the

   9   document, Dr. Cunningham, what does KKM23 depict?

  10   A.  This is a schematic of ADX Florence, that super-maximum

  11   facility, as seen from above in a schematic drawing.

  12   Q.  Going around the document are various cylindrical shaped

  13   objects.  What are throws?

  14   A.  Those are six gun towers.

  15   Q.  Where the outer perimeter or gun towers are situated, what

  16   is that?  Is that a wall?

  17   A.  Yes, it is a double perimeter wall around the facility.

  18   Q.  The wall is concrete or stone of some kind?

  19   A.  To my recollection.

  20   Q.  Is there also an interior fence?

  21   A.  Yes, sir.

  22   Q.  What is that fence made of, if you recall?

  23   A.  It is a razor wire fence.  It may be that the body is

  24   chain link but there are razor wire rolls at the bottom and

  25   tops.


   1   Q.  So in order to get to the inner fence, you would have to

   2   go through rolls and rolls of razor wire, is that correct?

   3   A.  That is correct.

   4   Q.  Just in case it is not obvious in New York City, what is

   5   razor wire?

   6   A.  It is wire that rather than being round it is like a band.

   7   It has an edge on it, and periodically spaced on that are

   8   places in which it comes out at a point and goes up and comes

   9   back down at a point.  It is sharpened.  So you have both the

  10   sharp points and the sharp edges.  It is called razor wire

  11   because it will lacerate you if you grab onto it.

  12   Q.  Looking at area 5 on the diagram, described as the

  13   administration building, is that how an outsider like yourself

  14   would enter the facility at Florence?

  15   A.  That is correct.

  16   Q.  Have you been through that entry system?

  17   A.  Yes, I have.  It is outside the perimeter, and after they

  18   take you through security and you walk through a metal

  19   detector, you go through a ramp so they can get a full picture

  20   of your feet.  When you actually enter, you go underground, so

  21   there is no break in the perimeter wall.

  22            MR. RUHNKE:  Next I will ask that we display on the

  23   Elmo KKM24, which I would offer.  One moment with counsel.

  24            MR. FITZGERALD:  No objection.

  25            THE COURT:  Received.


   1            (Defense Exhibit KKM24 received in evidence)

   2   Q.  What is shown in KKM24, if we could zoom in on the top

   3   portion of that exhibit?

   4   A.  This is a schematic that depicts one of the units in ADX

   5   Florence.  The central zone is the control center for --

   6   Q.  The area designated 5 is the central control center?

   7   A.  That is correct.  Then the spokes radiating off of that

   8   have the various rooms and cells that are associated with that

   9   particular unit.  Those are two-storied units that have solid

  10   hallways, but as you begin to enter one of those wings there

  11   is a stairway up and stairway down.

  12   Q.  Sort of like five or six stairsteps up to one range and

  13   five or six steps down to another range, is that correct?

  14   A.  That is correct.

  15   Q.  Let's take the upper left-hand spoke here.  I see each of

  16   the cells seems to have a boat-like shape.  Is that the area

  17   that you described earlier for getting into service pipes and

  18   other fixtures without ever actually having to enter the cell?

  19   A.  So they can change the light fixture because the light is

  20   recessed and protected.  So somebody doesn't have to enter the

  21   cell to service the light or plumbing.

  22   Q.  The large rooms across from the range of cells, what are

  23   those rooms?

  24   A.  Those would be interior recreation rooms, interior

  25   exercise spaces.


   1   Q.  So an inmate going to exercise would go to one of those

   2   rooms if they were indoors; is that correct?

   3   A.  That is correct.

   4   Q.  The large room that appears to show a basketball court on

   5   it, is that inside or supervised?

   6   A.  It is an outside recreation area for exercise.

   7   Q.  It is an area that is open where you can see the hills

   8   around it?

   9   A.  I don't recall exactly what that is made out of.

  10   Q.  Is there, for example, security measures in place there

  11   that take precautions against any kind of helicopter landing?

  12   A.  Yes, there is a netting or screen over the top and cables

  13   to prevent a helicopter extraction.

  14   Q.  Can we go back to the laptop exposition.

  15            Doctor, what is portrayed on this screen?

  16   A.  This is a drawing of a typical cell at ADX Florence, as if

  17   you are standing up sort of the hallway.  What you are looking

  18   at first is a solid front door that is a slider.  It is

  19   electrically operated and moves from side to side.  You then

  20   step into the cell, if that is open, and there is a vestibule

  21   that is about 3 feet deep by 5 feet wide.  Then there is

  22   another wall that is made up of prison bars, a grate, and it

  23   also has a sliding door on it as well.

  24   Q.  In other words, to enter one of these cells or to exit one

  25   of these cells, first the door that appears to be solid gray


   1   in the diagram has to be opened; is that correct?

   2   A.  That is correct.

   3   Q.  Are these done with keys or are these done in some other

   4   way?

   5   A.  They are typically opened electronically.  The officer

   6   typically calls for them to be opened and they slide open.

   7   There is a provision for them to be opened manually in case of

   8   emergency but the typical feature is that they are operated

   9   electronically.

  10   Q.  Then you have a vestibule area that is to enter or exit

  11   from the cell?

  12   A.  Yes.  That is the cell bars that go all the way across the

  13   cell, which is about 7 feet wide.  About half of that is a

  14   sliding bar or grate door, standard sliding cell door.

  15   Q.  Looking towards the rear of the cell, the diagram shows a

  16   single slit-type window.

  17   A.  That is correct.

  18   Q.  Where does that window look out into?

  19   A.  It looks into an interior courtyard of some kind.  None of

  20   the windows allow you to see a full view.  It may even be

  21   difficult to know what direction you are facing, but you never

  22   get a notion of how the security is operating around the

  23   facility.  Typically if you crane your head, you can see just

  24   a little bit of sky.

  25   Q.  Going clockwise around the cell, the first item you find


   1   after the grated door is what?

   2   A.  That is a shower.  There are showers in the cell, a

   3   stainless steel shower that operates by push button controls.

   4   You push the button and the water comes on for a set period of

   5   time and then stops.

   6   Q.  You are talking about the upper right-hand portion of the

   7   diagram; is that correct?

   8   A.  Yes, sir.

   9   Q.  Tell us again how the shower unit operates.

  10   A.  It is a one-piece stainless steel unit.  There is nothing

  11   to rip off.  Instead you push a button that operates a timer

  12   to reduce the chance of flooding.  That way you don't have to

  13   move the inmate in order for him to shower because he can

  14   shower right there in the cell.

  15   Q.  We discussed the window.  Come to the bed.  What is the

  16   bed made of and how does it relate to the cell itself?

  17   A.  The cell itself is made from poured rebar, reinforced

  18   concrete.  It is not cinderblock or anything.  The bed is also

  19   poured concrete and it is poured into the wall and the floor.

  20   So it is a continuous poured seamless feature, so there is no

  21   crevice to hide something down.  You will notice that on the

  22   lower edge -- you've got the top of the bed and then there is

  23   an indentation, and that is all the storage area that an

  24   inmate has, which is in that, just that slit that is there.

  25   Q.  Over the bed is there a specially designed low voltage


   1   television unit?

   2   A.  Again, there is a shelf there that is poured into the wall

   3   of the cell, and sitting on that is a low voltage black and

   4   white television, which is how much of the programming is

   5   delivered to the inmates, is over their own closed-circuit

   6   television network, as well as receiving some standard

   7   channels.

   8   Q.  Is there somewhere in this next -- I don't know if

   9   Florence has become a smoke-free facility, but somewhere an

  10   inmate can smoke a cigarette?

  11   A.  Yes, sir.  You push a button and there is a recessed hole

  12   in the cell that will stay hot for five or six seconds and you

  13   can light a cigarette, but it is recessed and again, you can't

  14   get access to it.

  15   Q.  Next appears to be some sort of desk or shelf.  What is

  16   that made of?

  17   A.  The desk area is poured into the wall of the cell.  That

  18   is again reinforced concrete.  Sitting in front of that, that

  19   round cylinder is a stool but it is poured into the floor.  It

  20   is just a cylindrical, round, concrete stool.

  21   Q.  Stay with the stool for a moment just in case it is not

  22   obvious.  The stool does not move in any way?  It is poured

  23   directly into the cell?

  24   A.  That is correct.

  25   Q.  Continuing around?


   1   A.  Then as you come forward there is a single unit toilet,

   2   sink, water fountain, that is all one stainless steel unit.

   3   You will notice, you will see kind of a cavity on the front of

   4   that stainless steel unit just forward of the toilet.  That is

   5   where the roll of toilet paper goes.  There is not a roll but

   6   instead of the toilet paper fits into the cavity.  The toilet

   7   seat has no lid on it.  It is simply a stainless receptacle.

   8   That way there is nothing to tear off.  The sink is also

   9   operated by a timer and waits for several seconds before the

  10   timer is pushed again.

  11   Q.  What is the significance of having two doors between

  12   inmate and management?

  13   A.  There are a number of protections.  One is that it is an

  14   additional barrier that an inmate would have to get through in

  15   order to get access to the hallway.  It substantially reduces

  16   the ability of inmates to communicate from one cell to another

  17   because you have put another barrier there at the front of the

  18   cell.  As these cells are typically on one side of the hall.

  19   There is not another cell that you can look into across the

  20   hall.  As staff are walking up and down the hall, it is not

  21   possible for an inmate to throw fluids or projectiles over

  22   them.  It is also possible, as the tray comes through the

  23   cell, the tray is handed through a wicket, a slot through the

  24   bar door.  So that you don't have to open the door to the cell

  25   as the inmate is passed the hot tray and cold tray, as he eats


   1   there in the cell.  It allows interaction, conversation, or

   2   even some degree of medical evaluation while the inmate is

   3   still on the other side of the bars.

   4            The other advantage as compared to a solid front

   5   single door that has a wicket that just opens that you would

   6   pass the tray through, in this setting the inmate is under

   7   continuous observation.  It is not as if some portion of his

   8   body is blocked by the solid door that is there.

   9   Additionally, as the inmates are restrained when they bring

  10   them out of the cell, for example, to go to exercise one or

  11   two hours a day, the inmate would back up to that wicket and

  12   be behind his back.  The staff member -- he will be either

  13   double or triple escorted.  The staff member backs up to his

  14   hands and waits for the door to be wicked.  The wicket comes

  15   open and he still has hold of the inmate at all times.  If you

  16   have that solid front door, you can have the inmate back up to

  17   get cuffed up but you have to turn loose of them when you open

  18   the door.  So this has that advantage as well.  So there are a

  19   number of security features that are an aspect of this

  20   vestibule or double-celling that you would not have in a solid

  21   front.

  22   Q.  You made reference earlier to when an inmate, for example,

  23   is taken out to one of those recreation areas directly across

  24   from the cell or in the immediate vicinity, that are either

  25   double or triple-escorted with handcuffs from behind.  Does


   1   one or more of the officers doing the escorting also carry

   2   some sort of weapon with them?

   3   A.  Yes, he does.  He carries a wooden baton.  It's about 3

   4   feet long and it is metal tipped, and that is used as a

   5   thrusting instrument into the inmate's rib cage if they

   6   attempt to turn or head or offers resistence.

   7   Q.  In terms of social contact with the outside world, are you

   8   aware generally speaking how many phone calls an inmate is

   9   allowed to make on a monthly basis in this super-maximum

  10   setting?

  11   A.  Yes, sir.  Depending on which one of the units he is on,

  12   he will get one or two 15-minute phone calls a month.  The

  13   phone is brought to the cell front so that there is complete

  14   control over what number is being dialed and who is being

  15   accessed, and those phone calls are both tape recorded and

  16   monitored.

  17   Q.  Are the people to whom the inmate is placing calls, do

  18   they have to be preapproved by the Bureau of Prisons?

  19   A.  Yes, they do.

  20   Q.  In terms of visits, social visits with family members and

  21   other people, first, are there limitations on who can visit?

  22   A.  Yes, there are.

  23   Q.  Do visits have to be approved in the sense that a person

  24   before they can visit an institution like this has to be

  25   investigated by the Bureau of Prisons?


   1   A.  That is correct.

   2   Q.  Are these visits conducted in a contact sense, that the

   3   inmate can hold or touch or hug a loved one during the visit?

   4   A.  No, sir.

   5   Q.  How are they conducted?

   6   A.  The inmate is escorted to the visitation area and his

   7   handcuffs are moved from the back to the front or he may be

   8   locked in a block box that covers up the keyhole.  As he is

   9   speaking, he is only speaking into a microphone.  Then on the

  10   other side of a very thick piece of reinforced glass that has

  11   a high hammer rate --

  12   Q.  Explain that.

  13   A.  That means you can beat on a hammer for a good while

  14   before you can produce even a little hole.  The visitor is

  15   talking on a telephone.  So on their side they have a

  16   telephone but the inmate on his side just has an open

  17   microphone and a speaker.

  18   Q.  Are the conversations themselves monitored and overheard

  19   by Bureau of Prisons personnel?

  20   A.  Yes, they are.

  21   Q.  Do you have photographs that depict these kind of cells?

  22   A.  Yes, I do.

  23   Q.  Let's see the next slide, please.  What are we looking at?

  24   A.  This is as if you are standing at the back of the cell by

  25   the slit window and you are looking to the front of the cell


   1   and you see just the edge -- you see the sink/toilet

   2   arrangement, then the sliding grate wall, the bar wall, the

   3   vestibule, and then the solid wall, and in this case that

   4   outer solid door that has a smaller window in it has been slit

   5   open.

   6   Q.  What are the dimensions?  How many square feet does one of

   7   these units comprise?

   8   A.  Approximately 80 square feet.  The cells are roughly 7 by

   9   12.  Of course you are losing close to 3 feet of it with the

  10   bed that is poured in there.  Wall to wall it is about 7 feet

  11   wide, about 11 to 12 feet long.  The vestibule is 3 feet deep

  12   and 5 feet wide.  It is a little narrower because the pipe

  13   chase is taking up some of that room back behind the sink and

  14   toilet.

  15   Q.  We are talking about an area that is substantially smaller

  16   than this jury box; is that correct?

  17   A.  Yes, sir.

  18   Q.  Have you been in these cells?

  19   A.  Yes, I have.  I have stood right where we are looking now

  20   and seen this view.

  21   Q.  Can I see the next slide, please.  What are we looking at

  22   now?  First of all, has that sliding door now been closed in

  23   this photograph?

  24   A.  No, sir.  It is still pulled over --

  25   Q.  I am sorry, I mean the grate.


   1   A.  No, it is still open because you can see to the left of

   2   that grate door that it is open on out into the hallway.  All

   3   we have done here is just shift our view a little bit.  We are

   4   still standing to the back of our cell and we have turned a

   5   little to the right and you see the surface of the concrete

   6   desk that is poured into the wall, and the unit that would

   7   allow you to light your cigarette and also an emergency call

   8   button, and then above that is the concrete shelf that is

   9   poured into the wall that is holding the small black and white

  10   TV.  Then above that, it is not easy to make out, it is the

  11   light receptacle, where the light is recessed back into it and

  12   shielded to make it quite difficult for the inmate to access

  13   that.

  14   Q.  Can we see the next slide, please.

  15   A.  Here we are standing at that solid front door looking into

  16   the cell past the grate wall, the bar doors that slide.  You

  17   see on the right-hand side the stainless steel shower.  You

  18   have a view of the concrete poured-in bed here and the shelf

  19   area below it.  The mattress is, I think, 3 inches thick by

  20   about 7 feet long.  It is made out of flame retardant

  21   material.

  22   Q.  Next slide.  This is a photograph showing a little further

  23   up towards the window and the shower unit, correct?

  24   A.  That is correct, and you get just a little edge of the

  25   desk and the TV shelf.


   1   Q.  Under the bed, that storage area that we have discussed,

   2   are we seeing basically as far deep as it goes?

   3   A.  Yes, it is about this deep, being 6 or 8 inches deep,

   4   which again makes it much more efficient to search the cell

   5   because there are no seams to hide things in, and there are

   6   limited areas where things can be out.

   7   Q.  If we could have the next slide.  At least as of 1998 when

   8   these figures were last provided to you, were you able to get

   9   a general profile of the inmates who are housed at the

  10   administrative maximum penitentiary in Florence, Colorado --

  11   first of all, what was the general, the rated capacity of this

  12   institution, meaning the number of inmates it can take?

  13   A.  The rated capacity is 490.  In June of 1998, it had 417,

  14   which is about 15 percent under capacity.  The most recent

  15   figure as of the 15th of this month shows a census of 379.

  16   Q.  Do you know that the United States Bureau of Prisons has a

  17   public Web site on the Internet?

  18   A.  Yes, sir.

  19   Q.  Is it possible to go to that Web site, for example, on a

  20   weekly basis tell the number of inmates in any particular

  21   institution?

  22   A.  That is correct.

  23   Q.  Is that where that figure 379 comes from?

  24   A.  That is correct.

  25   Q.  Do you happen to know how many prisoners there are in the


   1   entire federal system, approximately?

   2   A.  Approximately 129,000.  That does not include contract

   3   facilities.

   4   Q.  By contract facilities, what do you mean?

   5   A.  That means private prisons that are being paid to house

   6   inmates either on an ongoing basis for or a temporary basis.

   7   Q.  As of 1998 you have a category for sentences imposed on

   8   the inmates who are serving time in the administrative maximum

   9   penitentiary in Florence, Colorado.  Can you break those down

  10   for us.

  11   A.  Yes, sir.  46 percent of them were serving 24 years to

  12   life.  25 percent had life sentences.  The average sentence

  13   was 36 years.

  14   Q.  These are long, long term prisoners?

  15   A.  That is correct.

  16   Q.  Did the Bureau of Prisons make available to you their

  17   breakdown of why it is that these inmates were being housed in

  18   this super-maximum facility?

  19   A.  Yes, they did.  22.3 percent had either murdered another

  20   inmate or attempted to murder another inmate.  20 percent had

  21   been involved in serious assaults on inmates.  17 percent

  22   assaults on staff.  12.9 percent because they required greater

  23   security or increased monitoring.  9.2 percent for escape

  24   behavior from other facilities in the bureau.  4.6 percent for

  25   rioting.  Then 4.1 percent were direct court commitments.


   1   Q.  Meaning what?

   2   A.  That means that they did not first go into the Bureau of

   3   Prisons and misbehave, but instead went directly into that

   4   facility at the time of their sentencing.

   5   Q.  Have you heard that the inmate population of Florence is

   6   described as the federal prison system's worst of the worst?

   7   A.  That is correct.

   8   Q.  Is there a step-down or way of working one's way out of

   9   places like Florence?

  10   A.  Yes, sir.

  11   Q.  Can we have the next slide, please.

  12   A.  There are three general population units, and those

  13   individuals are in cells like you have seen the pictures of

  14   and the diagrams.  Briefly, the inmate is in restraints,

  15   handcuffed behind his back and escorted by two officers

  16   whenever he is moved from the cell.  He has 12 hours weekly

  17   out of cell exercise, weekly in groups.  He takes his exercise

  18   and stays at that cell and stays in that status at least 12

  19   months, at the end of which a decision is made whether or not

  20   it is appropriate to move him up to the next level.  The

  21   overall philosophy at ADX is not that most of these

  22   individuals will be kept there permanently but instead it will

  23   be tried to move them back into the general population at some

  24   point, although there are inmates there have been there a long

  25   time.  The general philosophy for most of the population is to


   1   try to move them back out into a US penitentiary.

   2   Q.  When you say move them back out into a US penitentiary,

   3   what type of custody and security is generally in place in

   4   United States penitentiaries?

   5   A.  It is a high security institution and someone may be

   6   handled with varying degrees of custody within that facility.

   7   So they may go back into a maximum custody setting.

   8   Q.  We have been discussing the security in place at the

   9   administrative maximum facility in Florence.  Were you

  10   provided with figures detailing assaults that have taken place

  11   at this facility in Florence from 1996 through approximately

  12   April of the year 2000?

  13   A.  Yes, I was.

  14   Q.  Have you done an analysis of those reports?

  15   A.  Yes, sir, I have.

  16   Q.  Can we have that next slide, please.

  17   A.  Across the top you see the first column of the offense

  18   that we are describing.  Then followed by each year.  The

  19   figures for 2000 are only the first four months.  The first

  20   category is assaults on inmates with a weapon.  Next category,

  21   assaults on inmates.  Next category, assaults on staff with a

  22   weapon.  The next category, assaults on staff.  There has

  23   never been the homicide of an inmate in ADX Florence, nor the

  24   homicide of a staff member.  Nor have there been any escapes.

  25   Q.  The average daily census, that is the figure across the


   1   bottom for that particular year?

   2   A.  That is correct.

   3   Q.  So an institution that is rated for, I think you said 490

   4   people -- is that correct?

   5   A.  That is correct.

   6   Q.  In 1996, the average 342 inmates; 1997, 377; 1998 up to

   7   410; 1999, 711; 2000,344.

   8   A.  That is correct.

   9   Q.  Let's talk about the assaults on staff with a weapon.  In

  10   all of 1996, there was one such assault; is that correct?

  11   A.  That is correct.

  12   Q.  There were none in 1997, 2 in 1998, 2 in 1999, one in the

  13   year 2000; is that correct?

  14   A.  Yes, sir.  I might add that this includes attempted.  They

  15   call it an assault when an attempt is made.  It doesn't have

  16   to be that the officer was wounded with a weapon but that an

  17   attempt was made to injure the officer with a weapon.

  18   Q.  To your knowledge, based on figures by the Bureau of

  19   Prisons, has there ever been an assault on a staff member at

  20   ADX Florence that resulted in a staff member being

  21   hospitalized, to your knowledge?

  22   A.  Not to my knowledge.

  23   Q.  Have you reviewed the underlying incident reports

  24   involving assaults on staff?  For example, if, for example, an

  25   inmate threw a cup of water at a staff member, how would that


   1   be categorized?

   2   A.  It would be categorized as an assault, a minor assault.

   3   Q.  Minor assault?

   4   A.  Yes, sir.

   5   Q.  Without going through all these assaults that are on the

   6   bottom, typically, if there is such a method of describing it,

   7   what are these kinds of assaults that are listed on this?

   8   A.  The most common assaults involve throwing a liquid on the

   9   officer, spitting on the officer, those kinds of things.  The

  10   more serious assaults involve attempting to headbutt, when

  11   they are being escorted, to throw their head back in some

  12   fashion, to push a tray back on an officer.  One officer's

  13   hands were cut.  He was holding onto the handcuffs and cut his

  14   handsome with that.

  15            I reviewed the individual disciplinary reports of all

  16   the more serious assaults on staff members since 1994, with

  17   the exception of 1999.  That data was not provided to me.  I

  18   had a couple big boxes of disciplinary reports.  None for '99

  19   but I have the other years.  I don't have all of 2000.  There

  20   were two incidents that were of greater concern.  There was

  21   one incident, '96 or '97, an inmate had taken the rod from the

  22   typewriter in the legal library, had gotten that back to his

  23   cell.  When a staff member stepped into the vestibule, the

  24   inmate lunged at him with this, and the officer deflected it.

  25   Then there was another incident, I believe in 2000, where an


   1   inmate also made a lunge at an officer through the grate, and

   2   again the officer stepped back and the lunge was unsuccessful

   3   and the inmate then flushed it down the toilet.  Those are the

   4   two most serious assaults that I recall going through.  Again,

   5   there were some other head butts and cutting with the

   6   handcuffs and a lot of throwing liquid and insolence and that

   7   kind of thing.

   8            MR. RUHNKE:  Your Honor, this would be a good time to

   9   take a morning break, if that is acceptable.

  10            THE COURT:  All right.

  11            (Recess)

  12            THE COURT:  Mr. Ruhnke, you may continue.

  13            MR. RUHNKE:  Thank you.

  14   Q.  Dr. Cunningham, you had made reference earlier to

  15   something called the Security Designation Custody

  16   Classification Manual of the United States Department of

  17   Justice Federal Bureau of Prisons, and I am asking you to look

  18   at a document in front of you marked KKM19.

  19   A.  I have that.

  20   Q.  Is that excerpted pages from that much larger manual?

  21   A.  Yes, it is.

  22   Q.  Do those excerpted pages include the particular security

  23   designation sections that you referred to earlier in your

  24   testimony?

  25   A.  Yes, they do.


   1            MR. RUHNKE:  Your Honor, I offer Defense Exhibit 19.

   2            MR. FITZGERALD:  No objection.

   3            THE COURT:  Received.

   4            (Defense Exhibit KKM19 received in evidence)

   5   Q.  Does the Bureau of Prisons to your knowledge have policy

   6   or program statements regarding when inmates and housing units

   7   and work areas may be searched?

   8   A.  Yes, it does.

   9   Q.  Does that program statement and policies involve every

  10   level of the search including body cavity searches of inmates

  11   using simple medical instruments?

  12   A.  That is correct, all the way from pat searches to visual

  13   strip searches to digital searches to x-rays.

  14   Q.  Are those policies set forth in the documents in front of

  15   you marked Defense Exhibit KKM20?

  16   A.  Yes, it is.

  17            MR. RUHNKE:  Your Honor, I offer KKM20.

  18            MR. FITZGERALD:  No objection.

  19            THE COURT:  Received.

  20            (Defense Exhibit KKM20 received in evidence)

  21   Q.  Does the United States Bureau of Prisons have a program

  22   statement -- incidentally, are all these statements available

  23   on the Internet to anyone who wants to download?

  24   A.  Yes.

  25            THE COURT:  Except not the jury.  I want to caution


   1   the jurors that it would be inappropriate for them to try to

   2   access any of this on the Internet.

   3   Q.  Does the United States Bureau of Prisons also have a

   4   program statement involving the use of stun guns within

   5   federal institutions, particularly something described as a

   6   federal 302A gas gun with MK ballistics adaptor?

   7   A.  Yes, it does.

   8   Q.  Is that program statement contained in Defense Exhibit

   9   KKM21?

  10   A.  Yes, it is.

  11            MR. RUHNKE:  I offer 21.

  12            MR. FITZGERALD:  No objection.

  13            THE COURT:  Received.

  14            (Defense Exhibit KKM21 received in evidence)

  15   Q.  Does the United States Bureau of Prisons have a statement

  16   regarding when firearms may be used against an inmate or

  17   others within Bureau of Prisons facilities or property?

  18   A.  Yes, it does.

  19   Q.  Is that policy described in Defense Exhibit KKM22?

  20   A.  That is correct.

  21            MR. RUHNKE:  I offer 22, your Honor.

  22            MR. FITZGERALD:  No objection.

  23            THE COURT:  Received.

  24            (Defense Exhibit KKM22 received in evidence)

  25   Q.  Does the United States Bureau of Prisons have available to


   1   it something called special administrative measures?

   2   A.  Yes, they do.

   3   Q.  To your knowledge is a special administrative measure

   4   currently in effect with regard to Khalfan Khamis Mohamed?

   5   A.  Yes, it is.

   6   Q.  Is that current special administrative measure set forth

   7   in Defense Exhibit KKM15?

   8   A.  That is correct.

   9            MR. RUHNKE:  Your Honor, I offer KKM15.

  10            MR. FITZGERALD:  No objection.

  11            THE COURT:  Received.

  12            (Defense Exhibit KKM15 received in evidence)

  13   Q.  Have you had an opportunity to examine the disciplinary

  14   file of Khalfan Mohamed since his incarceration in the

  15   Metropolitan Correctional Center beginning in October of 1999

  16   through up until the current time?

  17   A.  Yes, sir.  To the best of my knowledge, there are no

  18   disciplinary reports in the file.

  19   Q.  No report of disciplinary infractions, is that correct?

  20   A.  That is correct.

  21   Q.  Dr. Cunningham, we have been talking about these units at

  22   ADX, the administrative max, the super max facility of the

  23   United States Bureau of Prisons.  Is there a level of security

  24   available at ADX that is higher even than what you have

  25   described?


   1   A.  Yes, there is.

   2   Q.  Could we have the next slide, please.  Is there something

   3   within the United States Bureau of Prisons called a control

   4   unit?

   5   A.  Yes, it is there is.

   6   Q.  Does the United States Bureau of Prisons publish

   7   regulations that govern what inmates are placed in what is

   8   called a control unit?

   9   A.  Yes, it does.

  10   Q.  Do you have in front of you a document identified as

  11   KKM17?

  12   A.  Yes, I do.

  13   Q.  Is that a copy of the section of the Code of Federal

  14   Regulations dealing with the control unit within the United

  15   States Bureau of Prisons?

  16   A.  Yes, it is.

  17            MR. RUHNKE:  Your Honor, I offer KKM17.

  18            MR. FITZGERALD:  No objection.

  19            THE COURT:  Received.

  20            (Defense Exhibit KKM17 received in evidence)

  21   Q.  Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what a

  22   control unit is.

  23   A.  The control unit is a prison within the super max prison

  24   at ADX, where the conditions of confinement are even more

  25   rigorous in their security than they are in the general


   1   population unit that we were describing earlier.  It is

   2   intended to bring the highest degree of supervision security

   3   to bear.  On the control unit, the inmate is in his cell 23

   4   hours a day.  He is in that same vestibule cell arrangement

   5   that we were looking at earlier.  The control unit inmates

   6   have their legs shackled as well as their hands cuffed behind

   7   their back before they are removed from the cell, and instead

   8   of being double escorted, they are triple escorted.

   9   Q.  The escorts carry the batons that you described earlier

  10   with the steel tips on them?

  11   A.  That is correct.  One officer is holding the handcuffs in

  12   the back and the other two are carrying batons.  The exercise

  13   that the inmate takes is solitary, so that when he goes for

  14   his hour a day of exercise he is alone during that time, as

  15   well as being alone 23 hours a day in his cell and taking his

  16   meals in his cell.  The duration of that confinement is until

  17   he is deemed able to function in a less restrictive

  18   environment without posing a threat to others or to the

  19   orderly operation of the institution.

  20   Q.  Is there any end date to how long an inmate may be

  21   confined within a control unit at ADX Florence?

  22   A.  There is not a maximum on that.  The inmate may be given a

  23   tentative period of time that he is going to be confined at

  24   entrance.  There are regular reviews of individuals on the

  25   control unit in their status by the director of the north


   1   central region of the Bureau of Prisons, and also the

   2   assistant director of correctional programs form an executive

   3   panel that approximately every 90 days or so review the

   4   control of inmates, so that there is a due process review of

   5   whether or not this particular inmate continues to require

   6   this degree of custody.

   7   Q.  Dr. Cunningham, would you pick up Defense Exhibit 17 in

   8   evidence and turn to the second page of the exhibit.

   9   A.  Yes, sir.

  10   Q.  Under section 541.41, is there a list of criteria which

  11   are to be considered in whether recommending a person to

  12   control unit placement?

  13   A.  Yes, there is.

  14   Q.  Would you just read to the jury the seven different

  15   criteria that may be considered for placement in a control

  16   unit.

  17   A.  1.  Any incident during confinement in which the inmate

  18   has caused injury to others to other persons.

  19            2.  Any incident in which the inmate has expressed

  20   threats to the life or well being of other persons.

  21            3.  Any incident involving possession by the inmate

  22   of deadly weapons or dangerous drugs.

  23            4.  Any incident in which the inmate is involved in a

  24   disruption of the orderly operation of a prison, jail or other

  25   correctional institution.


   1            5.  An escape from a correctional institution.

   2            6.  An escape attempt.  Depending on the

   3   circumstances, an escape attempt considered alone or together

   4   with an inmate's prior history may warrant consideration for a

   5   control unit placement.

   6            7.  The nature of the offense for which committed.

   7   An inmate may not be considered solely on the nature of the

   8   crime which resulted in that inmate's incarceration.  However,

   9   the nature of the crime may be considered in combination with

  10   other factors as described in paragraph B -- which is the ones

  11   I have just listed -- of this section.

  12   Q.  Can I see the next slide, please.

  13            What we are looking at, Doctor, is exactly what?

  14   A.  This is a schematic of a particular area of ADX, a

  15   particular range.  This is C unit, D range detail.  That's

  16   what is indicated in the upper right-hand corner.  What we are

  17   looking at here along the upper right side are the standard

  18   vestibule cells.  Across the bottom of this schematic are

  19   special cells that have adjacent interior, inside and outside

  20   recreation, and also adjacent visitation.

  21            MR. RUHNKE:  I am going to ask that we switch over to

  22   the Elmo and see if we can zoom in on that area.  Your Honor,

  23   the slides themselves have been marked as one group Exhibit

  24   25, and that is a part of Exhibit 25.  If we could zoom in on

  25   the lower corner or center of that diagram and shift it to


   1   your left.  Stop it right there.

   2   Q.  What are we looking at here, Dr. Cunningham?

   3   A.  If you look at the large center room with the X over it,

   4   that's an outside exercise area.  Just next to that on either

   5   side are vestibule cells, and these are arranged a little bit

   6   differently.  Notice that the access for the pipe chase is

   7   through the wall at the back of the cell rather than being at

   8   the front of the cell where the hallway is.  Then you notice

   9   as you come just up from that area to the left of it that

  10   small box with the X in it is the shower.  Coming forward from

  11   that is the sink/toilet arrangement.  Then the stool and shelf

  12   area.  And across from that the bed.  Then there is a grate

  13   door.

  14            So in this cell configuration, this side pocket or

  15   super cells provide the potential that an inmate could have

  16   his grate door open, come out into that area, then have the

  17   door open, the slider open to the outside recreation area and

  18   go through that room, have it closed behind him, and they

  19   could go in and search his cell.  At the end of the recreation

  20   he could come back out of that cell and in sequence into his

  21   interior cell.

  22            For visitation, if you look at 132, which is an

  23   inside exercise area, which can also be utilized, notice what

  24   looks like a walk-in closet -- I think the number is 138 --

  25   that comes off that lateral hallway.  It is a visitation booth


   1   that a visitor can go into.  The inmate would come out of his

   2   cell, the slider would open through to that area, sit down at

   3   the stool and also have access to visitation there, where the

   4   visitor is sealed in, locked into that walk-in closet, and the

   5   inmate is on the other side.  This reduces the demand for the

   6   staff to have to handle the inmate quite as much as they would

   7   even on the control unit, because you could just open the

   8   doors to have the inmate move from place to place.  Some staff

   9   would be involved but this much reduces that, if they

  10   determine to place someone in this kind of setting.

  11   Q.  What you are describing then is within the control unit,

  12   which is more secure than the administrative maximum unit or

  13   even cells within the control unit that are more secure than

  14   the general control unit, is that it?

  15   A.  I am not sure this is geographically located in the

  16   control unit per se, but these cells represent a higher degree

  17   of security and reduced inmate contact than in the control

  18   unit.

  19   Q.  Are you aware within the Bureau of Prisons system of

  20   inmates who have been locked down under control unit

  21   conditions for a substantial number of years?

  22   A.  Yes, I am.

  23   Q.  Are you familiar with an inmate named Thomas Silverstein

  24   and an inmate named Clayton Fountain?  When I say familiar, I

  25   don't mean do you know them.  Are you familiar with their


   1   cases and their situations?

   2   A.  Yes, I am.

   3   Q.  Did each of these inmates murder a correctional officer on

   4   the same day in 1983 at the facility in Marion, Illinois?

   5   A.  Yes, sir, tragically, two separate incidents to correction

   6   officers that were killed on the same day.

   7   Q.  For the past 18 years, what conditions of confinement --

   8   first of all, do you know where each inmate is presently

   9   located and housed?

  10   A.  Clayton Fountain is in a special cell unit at Springfield.

  11   Silverstein, as I recall, is in a special cell unit at

  12   Leavenworth.

  13   Q.  Without detailing at great length their conditions of

  14   confinement, can you just generally sketch for the jury what

  15   kind of conditions of confinement have these two men lived in

  16   separately for the last 18 years?

  17   A.  They are in extraordinarily secure confinement.  They are

  18   in a single cell.  My understanding is that there is an

  19   adjacent cell that has had the fixtures removed for an

  20   exercise area, with the slider in between.  Any sort of --

  21   there is very limited staff contact.  They are continuously

  22   monitored by closed circuit television and microphones,

  23   including see-in-the-dark kind of equipment.  So they are

  24   continuously monitored.  Any movement is with extraordinary

  25   security, closed staffing, closed off doors, very intense


   1   supervision and restriction.

   2   Q.  We have been talking about Florence and the super max

   3   facility.  How many United States penitentiaries are there

   4   meeting the highest level of security around the United

   5   States, to your knowledge?

   6   A.  There are nine.  There are eight that are standard US

   7   penitentiaries.  Then there is Marion, which functions at a

   8   level kind of midway between a regular US penitentiary and ADX

   9   Florence.  So if you include Marion, there are nine plus ADX.

  10   Q.  To your knowledge, do all these units have something

  11   called a special housing unit, i.e., a high security winning

  12   or set of cells within what is already a high security prison?

  13   A.  Yes, sir.

  14   Q.  Does the administration of those institutions, no matter

  15   who the prison is, have available to it very high security

  16   measures even within something that is not super max?

  17   A.  Yes, they do.

  18   Q.  Have you reviewed a videotape that I played for you?

  19   A.  Yes, I have.

  20            MR. RUHNKE:  Your Honor, I would like to read a

  21   stipulation at this time.

  22            THE COURT:  Yes.

  23            MR. RUHNKE:  The stipulation is marked KKM stip 5.

  24   It is hereby stipulated and agreed by and between the United

  25   States of America by Mary Jo White, United States Attorney for


   1   the Southern District of New York, Patrick J. Fitzgerald and

   2   Michael J. Garcia, of counsel, and the defendant Khalfan

   3   Khamis Mohamed, with the consent of his attorneys, as follows:

   4            1.  On November 8, 2000, Mr. Mohamed was transported

   5   to the Federal Correctional Institution in Otisville, New

   6   York, and housed there until just before the commencement of

   7   this trial on January 3, 2001.  While at Otisville, videotapes

   8   were made of Mr. Mohamed's movements within the institution,

   9   utilizing what is called a 3-man hold.  The videotape marked

  10   KKMVT1 depicts one of those movements.  Although the tape is

  11   undated, it has been agreed that the tape was made in

  12   mid-to-late December 2000.

  13            It is further agreed that this stipulation may be

  14   read to the jury and received in evidence as a defense

  15   exhibit, as KKMVT1.

  16            I offer the exhibit and the stipulation, your Honor.

  17            THE COURT:  Yes, received.

  18            (Defense Exhibits KKM stip 5 and KKMVT3 received in

  19   evidence)

  20            MR. RUHNKE:  I am sorry, it is marked VT3, not 1.

  21            We perceived the source of the sound problem and are

  22   using the microphone.

  23            (Videotape played)

  24   Q.  Dr. Cunningham, having viewed that video, as an initial

  25   matter, although it is not shown on the videotape itself,


   1   given the kind of security conditions that are in place is it

   2   highly likely that Mr. Mohamed would have been subject to at

   3   least a visual strip search before being allowed to dress to

   4   come out of the cell?

   5   A.  I would assume so.

   6   Q.  And the same is true when he returned to his cell?

   7   A.  That is typically what occurs when somebody has any degree

   8   of contact out of their cell, is, there is a strip search

   9   before they are put back in their cell.

  10   Q.  The situation you saw did not have -- let me back up.

  11            How would the situation, for example, at a three-man

  12   hold at ADX Florence have differed from what you just saw?

  13   A.  The escorting staff members would have been carrying

  14   batons; these officers were not.

  15   Q.  In terms of the distance that Mr. Mohamed was moved in

  16   this video, what would be the situation in a unit, either the

  17   control unit or the administrative maximum noncontrol units at

  18   Florence?

  19   A.  The recreation areas, the exercise areas are much closer.

  20   They are across the hall or just down the hall.  So the

  21   distance of movement is typically reduced.  There is a

  22   capability of delivering some degree of medical services close

  23   at hand on the units.  As a larger medical problem developed,

  24   then you would need to take the person further.  But for the

  25   most part their typical movements are within a pretty confined


   1   area.

   2   Q.  Are there advantages other than simple numbers in having

   3   something like two or three officers in charge of moving an

   4   inmate and in enforcing security procedures?

   5   A.  It has several advantages, I guess, that are related to

   6   numbers.  One of them is that you easily overpower the inmate.

   7   Secondly, the presence of multiple officers discourages an

   8   attack in the first place simply by the intimidation effect.

   9   There is also a higher likelihood of complying with security

  10   procedures if there is an additional person who is there and

  11   who also knows what the rules are and who is also going to get

  12   in trouble if you don't follow those.  It reduces complacency

  13   and cutting corners if there is more than one person present,

  14   particularly if one of those is an officer.

  15   Q.  Did you notice at the start of the video when Mr. Mohamed

  16   was about to be handcuffed, he started to put his hands out

  17   frontwards?

  18   A.  That is correct.

  19   Q.  And one of the officers started to place the handcuffs on

  20   it.  Did you notice what the superior officer did?

  21   A.  He told him to have Mr. Mohamed turn around so that he

  22   could be handcuffed from the back.

  23   Q.  Do you know in terms of complacency or familiarity what

  24   the Bureau of Prisons' policy is with staff rotations within

  25   the control units of super max penitentiaries such as


   1   Florence?

   2   A.  To my knowledge there is some staff rotation and some

   3   inmate rotation as well.

   4   Q.  What does that mean?

   5   A.  You are rotating the inmate so they don't have an

   6   indefinite period of time in one cell where they might begin

   7   to work on that.  Also, when you rotate the staff and

   8   officers, it reduces that sense of familiarity and

   9   complacency.

  10   Q.  Are you familiar with the type of food served in these

  11   institutions?  Is it basically American-type food?

  12   A.  That is my understanding.  There is a hot tray and a cold

  13   tray that is delivered.

  14   Q.  Based on your experience and the research you have done

  15   and the things you have tried to find out about, given the

  16   abilities of the Bureau of Prisons, once the Bureau of Prisons

  17   identifies an inmate as somebody who in the view of the Bureau

  18   of Prisons is potentially a danger to staff and inmates, what

  19   sort of job do they perform overall in protecting other people

  20   from that inmate?

  21   A.  They can bring extraordinary levels of supervision to bear

  22   to match the perception of the degree of threat they identify

  23   this person as presenting to them.

  24            MR. RUHNKE:  I have no further questions, your Honor.

  25            THE COURT:  Mr. Fitzgerald.


   1            MR. FITZGERALD:  Thank you, your Honor.



   4   Q.  This time it is good afternoon.

   5   A.  Good afternoon.

   6   Q.  Why don't we start where you just ended, and you indicated

   7   that once the Bureau of Prisons identifies in their mind or

   8   the collective mind of the Bureau of Prisons that a person

   9   poses a danger, you said they can bring an extraordinary

  10   amount of security to bear, correct?

  11   A.  That is correct.

  12   Q.  That would be true in theory, correct?

  13   A.  And in practice, based on the supervision of the general

  14   population at ADX and the control unit as well as the side

  15   pocket cells.

  16   Q.  Sir, you mentioned the cases of two men, one named

  17   Silverstein and one named Fountain, correct?

  18   A.  That is correct.

  19   Q.  Are you aware that both Silverstein and Fountain had

  20   originally been sent to jail or prison for murder; correct?

  21   A.  That is correct.

  22   Q.  Are you aware that once in prison Silverstein had an

  23   inmate killed in a penitentiary; correct?

  24   A.  My understanding is that each of them had been guilty of

  25   violence and homicides in prison before this one.  I don't


   1   remember the dates when this occurred.

   2   Q.  If you read their cases, Silverstein, are you aware that

   3   after he was sent to prison for murder had an inmate killed in

   4   a prison facility?  Do you doubt that?

   5   A.  No, not at all.  I have not directly reviewed those

   6   documents.  I know that he was charged with a prior homicide

   7   and I don't doubt that.  I simply don't have those specifics.

   8   Q.  Are you aware that Fountain, once he went to prison for

   9   murder, also murdered another inmate in prison?

  10   A.  I would accept that representation again.  I don't know

  11   the specifics of the case now.

  12   Q.  Are you aware that at the time in 1981, the most secure

  13   state of the art prison facility in the United States was then

  14   the Marion control unit; correct?

  15   A.  As security existed at that time, which is well below what

  16   is brought to bear now.

  17   Q.  State of the art security in May of 1981 was the control

  18   unit at Marion, correct?

  19   A.  That unit did not operate according to the same way the

  20   control unit does currently.  That was the state of the art in

  21   1983.

  22   Q.  Would the answer to my question be yes?  Was it the state

  23   of the art as of May 1981?

  24   A.  As of that time, absolutely.

  25   Q.  Let's focus on the people the Bureau of Prisons identified


   1   as dangerous.  They had two inmates, both convicted of murder,

   2   who each carried out murders or ordered murders in prison and

   3   sent them to the state of the art Marion control unit.  Focus

   4   on that period of time.

   5   A.  Yes, sir.

   6   Q.  Are you aware that Fountain and Silverstein then strangled

   7   another inmate while in the control unit at Marion?

   8   A.  I accept that is the case.

   9   Q.  Assume at that point Silverstein and Fountain, both being

  10   guilty of murder, both having ordered or carried out murders

  11   in prison before getting to the control unit, both jointly

  12   participating in murder while at the control unit, that the

  13   Bureau of Prisons would then focus on trying to be as secure

  14   as possible on those inmates.

  15   A.  With the facilities available at the time, yes.

  16   Q.  Are you aware that in October 1983 Silverstein, when he

  17   killed an officer, was in a 3-man hold.  With two officers

  18   behind, he jumped, ran away, managed to get to another cell,

  19   grabbed a shank, and stabbed that officer to death.

  20   A.  That is correct.

  21   Q.  Are you aware that same day in the same institution, the

  22   person who committed a prior murder in a control unit was also

  23   taken out of the cell that day in a 3-man hold, also escaped

  24   from a 3-man hold, he killed a guard, maimed another and

  25   injured the third?


   1   A.  That is correct.

   2   Q.  So we have to focus on the real world to theory of the

   3   Bureau of Prisons as displayed in the Internet and in manuals?

   4   A.  The real world as exists today is quite a bit different

   5   than the architecture and staff procedures as existed in the

   6   control unit in Marion in 1983.  Silverstein ran to an open

   7   cell front that allowed him to be taken out of his cuffs and

   8   handed an instrument.  Those are now closed.  That is what the

   9   vestibule celling is about.  Staff members now carry batons.

  10   There are a number of things that are different in what is

  11   brought to bear.

  12   Q.  My question, we have to factor in the real world when we

  13   consider Bureau of Prisons policy.  Is the answer yes?

  14   A.  Yes, sir.  The real world is different now than it was in

  15   1983.

  16   Q.  Let me back up a moment.  You testified that you have been

  17   a psychologist since what year?

  18   A.  1978 is when I first arrived at the submarine base as a

  19   clinical psychologist with the navy, in March of '78.

  20   Q.  You began testifying as a forensic psychologist in 1975,

  21   is that correct?

  22   A.  No, sir, that is not correct.  I first began to testify on

  23   forensic matters when I was in the navy, and periodically

  24   across my clinical practice, in fact with increasing frequency

  25   across the 1980's in my clinical practice, I participated in


   1   clinical cases.  I did not identify myself as a forensic

   2   psychologist until I became board certified because I didn't

   3   think that was an appropriate designation to carry until I had

   4   that special designation.  Up until that time I identified

   5   myself as a clinical psychologist doing forensic work.

   6   Q.  Is it fair to say that prior to 1985 your testimony as a

   7   psychologist did not include testimony about assessment of

   8   future dangerousness, risk assessment and conditions of

   9   confinement?

  10   A.  That is correct.

  11   Q.  Since 1995, can you tell us over the years how much of

  12   your income has been derived from providing expert testimony

  13   as a forensic psychologist concerning future dangerousness,

  14   risk assessment and the conditions of confinement.

  15            MR. RUHNKE:  Judge, object to the form of the

  16   question.

  17            THE COURT:  Overruled.

  18            MR. RUHNKE:  Do we start with testimony,

  19   consultation --

  20   Q.  Testimony, consultation, work as a retained expert.

  21   A.  I can give you some estimates of the amount of my income

  22   that is associated with doing capital consultations of one

  23   sort or another.  Those may be involved with mitigation,

  24   violence risk assessment, conditions of confinement,

  25   competency to be executed, post-conviction or evaluations


   1   associated with appeals processes.  I can give you a very

   2   rough notion of what portion of my income comes from all of

   3   that work.  I don't have it broken out by risk assessment

   4   prison conditions specifically.

   5   Q.  Can you tell us how much you made last year in the risk

   6   assessment, future dangerousness prison conditions line of

   7   work?

   8   A.  No, sir, I don't know that.  I can tell you about what

   9   percentage of my income derived in capital cases broadly, but

  10   not risk assessment violence specifically.

  11   Q.  Did you receive a letter prior to testifying asking you to

  12   be able to tell the jury how you earned your income over the

  13   years?

  14   A.  Yes, sir.  You faxed me a letter yesterday while I was

  15   already in New Jersey and the question was what percent of

  16   your income earned as an expert witness in capital cases

  17   versus the amount earned in clinical psychology since 1995.  I

  18   am attempting to respond very generally in terms of the

  19   question you posed in the letter.

  20            MR. RUHNKE:  May the witness finish his answer,

  21   please.

  22   Q.  I am sorry if I am jumping, sir.  Prior to yesterday, did

  23   you receive advice notification from counsel for Mr. Khalfan

  24   Mohamed that the government wished to know this information?

  25   A.  I don't believe so.  I recall that Mr. Ruhnke indicated


   1   that my fees in capital cases may be of interest to you but

   2   there was no formal request for me to generate that sort of

   3   information.

   4   Q.  So why don't you tell us last year how much of a

   5   percentage of your income was earned working on capital cases

   6   as a forensic psychologist.

   7   A.  Let me qualify before I respond to that that I called my

   8   secretary to ask her to see what she could retrieve in terms

   9   of my income and I have not gone back over those things to

  10   validate with my attorney and that sort of thing.  As she

  11   described to me, my net this last year was about $250,000.

  12   Approximately, my best guess, 70 to 80 percent of my work is

  13   associated with capital cases of one sort or another.

  14   Q.  Is it fair to say, sir, in the prior times you have

  15   testified in capital cases concerning dangerousness, risk

  16   assessment and prison conditions, is it fair to say that in

  17   all those cases you have never testified that any defendant

  18   posed a future danger while confined?  Yes or no.

  19   A.  No, sir, that is not correct.

  20   Q.  In how many cases have you testified concerning future

  21   dangerousness?

  22   A.  I can tell you how many capital cases I have testified in.

  23   I don't have it broken out in terms of how many are violence

  24   risk assessment versus capital cases broadly.

  25   Q.  Can you name the number of defendants that you recall


   1   would be danger?

   2   A.  All the defendants I have testified in terms of violence

   3   risk assessment, I have indicated the relative probability

   4   that inmate would commit violent acts in prison.  In no case

   5   have I said that someone had a zero risk of violence in

   6   prison.  Instead I identified based on groups of risk data

   7   based on past periods of confinement what the likelihood was

   8   of carrying out violent acts in prison.  On occasion I have

   9   identified individuals that I felt were above the group rate

  10   for that, other individuals who were at about that group rate,

  11   and some who were somewhat below the rate.  As the severity of

  12   violence increases, the likelihood of it goes down.  So it

  13   also depends on what type of violence you are talking about as

  14   you look at the likelihood of it.  For example, assaults on

  15   staff members occur pretty regularly in federal prison.  Those

  16   that result in serious or major injuries are pretty rare.

  17   There have only been two homicides of corrections officers in

  18   the past 13 years.  So depending what sort of violence we are

  19   talking about, the likelihood changes.  It becomes less likely

  20   with higher intensity violence.

  21   Q.  Can you answer my question.  Can you name a defendant you

  22   testified would pose a danger beyond a low base rate while

  23   confined in Bureau of Prisons custody.

  24   A.  I apologize because I don't recall all the cases.  I have

  25   testified that individuals were at the base rate.  I am trying


   1   to recall whether or not in a federal case I have identified

   2   someone as above the base rate.  If you would give me just a

   3   moment to kind of review those cases.

   4   Q.  Is it fair to say that even in those cases the base rate

   5   you have set you have always described as low?  Correct?  Yes

   6   or no.

   7   A.  That's what I am trying to remember, what cases I have

   8   testified in.

   9            THE COURT:  Suppose we break for lunch and you will

  10   have an opportunity to review your notes.  We are adjourned

  11   until 2:15.

  12            (Luncheon recess)















   1                 A F T E R N O O N   S E S S I O N

   2                             2:15 p.m.

   3            (Jury present)

   4   MARK CUNNINGHAM, resumes.

   5            THE COURT:  Good afternoon.


   7   Q.  Good afternoon.

   8   A.  Good afternoon.

   9   Q.  Over lunch did you have an opportunity to recall if there

  10   was any defendant for whom you testified there would be a high

  11   risk of danger while confined in the Bureau of Prisons?

  12   A.  Yes, sir.  I apologize for making that question perhaps

  13   more difficult than it was.

  14            I have never testified that somebody is a substantial

  15   likelihood of committing serious violence in prison among

  16   capital offenders.  Any case that I had that opinion, I was

  17   not called to testify and the state has not asked me to

  18   evaluate anyone, so that left the ones where the defense in

  19   fact called me.

  20   Q.  So you have never testified that anyone posed a high risk

  21   of danger?

  22   A.  Not more likely than not.  I have testified some were

  23   above the base rate or at the base rate or somewhat below, but

  24   never that somebody was more likely than not to commit serious

  25   violence in prison.


   1   Q.  Isn't it fair to say you only testified once that a person

   2   was above the base rate?

   3   A.  No, sir, that is not a fair characterization.

   4   Q.  When you testified, did you testify about a person by the

   5   name of Bobbit who was above the base rate?

   6   A.  I don't recall my testimony specifically in that case.  I

   7   apologize.

   8   Q.  But in testifying that someone was above the base rate,

   9   did you also conclude in that case that he was still a low

  10   risk of violence, do you recall?

  11   A.  My general recollection is that I still thought that he

  12   was less likely than 50 percent, still on the lower side of

  13   that, and by some distance.

  14   Q.  Sir, are you saying that you testified that it was less

  15   than 50 percent that he would be violent, or did you testify

  16   he was a low risk of violence?

  17   A.  I don't recall specifically.  I testified about a lot of

  18   statistics and there may ultimately have been a final

  19   conclusion that that put him into a lower range of violence

  20   risk, but I don't recall specifically my testimony.

  21   Q.  Haven't you consistently testified in all the cases that

  22   you have testified in capital sentencing that you do not make

  23   a prediction, you do not assign a statistical number of how

  24   likely someone is to commit violence, that you simply make a

  25   risk assessment and not a prediction; isn't that correct?


   1   A.  No, sir, that's a mischaracterization.  I have testified

   2   that I don't make a prediction in terms of saying, yes, this

   3   person will be violent or, no, they will not be violent,

   4   because that's speculative and unscientific.

   5            What I do do is engage in a risk assessment where I

   6   establish the relative probability or statistical likelihood

   7   that this individual will commit an act of serious violence in

   8   prison, and that is what I offer.  Ultimately, it is the

   9   jury's consideration whether that risk is an acceptable risk

  10   or how high or low it is.

  11   Q.  Isn't it fair to say that you have never put a statistical

  12   number on the risk assessment?

  13   A.  Oh, no, sir, that is certainly incorrect.  In every case

  14   that I have testified I have described the base rate of

  15   violence among capital offenders.  In other words, a risk

  16   assessment of capital sentencing undertaken much like the

  17   automobile insurance industry, identifies the risk of an

  18   accident, that you take a group of similar individuals and you

  19   track your experience with them over time, and on the basis of

  20   that you identify a relative risk rate or statistical

  21   likelihood.

  22            That base rate is the most reliable anchor for a

  23   violence risk assessment in the absence of a clear pattern of

  24   behavior in prison or in confinement.  So, as I have done, as

  25   I have testified about violence risk assessment, I have


   1   described those statistics, and if I in fact evaluated the

   2   defendant, will typically anchor or attach those statistics to

   3   him with some raising or lowering of that base rate depending

   4   on individual factors.

   5   Q.  Isn't it fair to say that in the end you have testified

   6   for a person even above the base rate that they were a low

   7   risk, yes or no, without qualifying it as being less than 50

   8   percent?  Have you testified that a person who was above the

   9   base rate constituted a low risk of violence in the Bobbit

  10   case, yes or no?

  11   A.  I don't recall my testimony specifically in the Bobbit

  12   case.  I apologize.

  13   Q.  Sir, how much do you expect to earn in this case?

  14   A.  You know, I don't know.  I know my billable rate, but I

  15   don't know what hours I have generated in this so far.  My

  16   secretary tracks that.

  17   Q.  How much do you charge per hour?

  18   A.  My fee is $210 per hour.

  19   Q.  And do you estimate how many hours have you spent on this

  20   case to date?

  21   A.  Gee, I don't know.  I made a trip out here several weeks

  22   ago and I have spent a good deal of time working on the ADX

  23   Florence disciplinaries and the terrorist and bomber

  24   disciplinaries.  I apologize.  I would expect that I have

  25   spent at least 50 hours in this case, and I think it could


   1   well be more than that.

   2   Q.  In most cases in which you have testified in a capital

   3   proceeding, have you received between 25 and $35,000 when you

   4   have testified as the payment for all your work in the case?

   5   A.  Oh, no, sir.  No, sir.  Some of the cases that I have

   6   testified in I have simply been a teaching witness in violence

   7   risk assessment, simply presented the studies and statistics

   8   to the jury.  In those cases, the total billings may be 5 or

   9   $6,000.  More typically, the fees have perhaps been, for all

  10   the work involved, 10 to $20,000.  There are some cases that

  11   have gone higher than that, but they are more the exception.

  12   Q.  Did you submit an affidavit in another case that described

  13   the fees in seven cases, as in the Hardy case in 1996 as

  14   $34,763, the Rodriguez case in 1997 as $26,045, the Spidey

  15   case in 1993 as $21,986, the Ingle case in 1997 as $21,949,

  16   the Beckford case in 1997 as $34,581, the Johnson case in

  17   Chicago in 1998 as $23,825, and the Holly case in 1998 in

  18   Alabama as $31,357; do those sound correct?

  19   A.  I don't recall the numbers specifically, but that sounds

  20   broadly correct.  That's right there, those are all federal

  21   cases, and accordingly have been more complex and required

  22   many more hours.  I was talking about all the capital work

  23   that I am involved in.

  24   Q.  Now, sir, you did not prepare a report in this case; is

  25   that correct?


   1   A.  No, sir, the exhibits are the report.

   2   Q.  And in many other cases you prepare a report in advance of

   3   your testimony; isn't that correct?

   4   A.  If requested to, yes.

   5   Q.  And you have been asked in some cases whether you prepared

   6   a report, correct?

   7   A.  Yes, sir.

   8   Q.  And isn't it true that under the specialty guidelines for

   9   forensic pathologists, that it cites that that is a

  10   responsibility, to create and maintain documentation?

  11   A.  Oh, yes, sir.  That's not describing a report, that's

  12   talking about your notes and your interview materials.

  13            MR. RUHNKE:  I believe Mr. Fitzgerald said forensic

  14   pathology.

  15   Q.  Psychology, sorry.

  16   A.  Those specialty guidelines, they are talking there about

  17   the necessity when you interview someone to keep careful notes

  18   of the interviews that you do with family members or with the

  19   defendant so that those can be subjected to reasonable

  20   scrutiny.  The report that may or may not be prepared depends

  21   on whether one is requested.

  22   Q.  And you know that when you prepare a report people get the

  23   report in advance to review, correct?

  24   A.  On occasion.  Certainly the person you are submitting it

  25   to has it in advance.  It may or may not be turned over in


   1   discovery, depending on the rules in a given jurisdiction.

   2   Q.  Can you answer my question?  Do you understand in federal

   3   court the rules are if you prepare a report in advance, it is

   4   turned over to the other side to review and study, yes or no?

   5   A.  I'm not familiar with what those rules are in federal

   6   court.

   7   Q.  You are not familiar with the federal discovery rules?

   8   A.  No, sir.

   9   Q.  Now, you mentioned when you prepare a report or interview

  10   a defendant, is it fair to say that in prior cases you have

  11   not only reviewed the disciplinary records at the place where

  12   the person is held but done interviews or sought to do

  13   interviews of the people who work at the correctional centers

  14   where a defendant is held, yes or no?

  15   A.  No, sir, that's not correct.  Sometimes I have interviewed

  16   the individual and sometimes I have not.

  17   Q.  Did you testify in a case involve Trinity Ingle in federal

  18   court in Arkansas in June of 1997?

  19   A.  Yes, I did.

  20   Q.  And did you testify in that case that in terms of

  21   interviews with Trinity on April 16, "I interviewed him for

  22   314 minutes and I also interviewed, more briefly, a couple of

  23   the correction officers there at the jail in Eldorado where he

  24   was being confined."  And then continue, "I like to interview

  25   the jail personnel so I have some description of what this


   1   person is like when they are confined, particularly, in this

   2   case, his future dangerousness within the confines of jail or

   3   prison.  And so his behavior within the jail was something

   4   that I was interested in getting a verbal description of as

   5   well as reviewing the records."

   6            Does that sound like your testimony in Ingle.

   7   A.  I don't recall my testimony specifically in Ingle, but

   8   that's broadly consistent with what I believe.

   9   Q.  So, in that case, you reviewed the records and then you

  10   went and interviewed the personnel as to the interaction

  11   between the defendant and the personnel?

  12   A.  That's correct.

  13   Q.  In this case you just reviewed the records, correct?

  14   A.  Yes, sir, my function in this case was --

  15            THE COURT:  Try to answer the question.

  16            THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

  17            THE COURT:  Your counsel will have an opportunity, if

  18   he wishes, to bring out any elaboration on redirect.  But if

  19   the question is capable of a yes or no answer, attempt to

  20   answer it yes or no.

  21            THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

  22   Q.  In that same case, in Trinity Ingle, was the defendant in

  23   that case found to have what was described as a bat made out

  24   of newspaper and a ball that was viewed as a weapon and did

  25   you bring it in to court to show the jury?


   1   A.  The bat was viewed as a weapon.  The little ball that was

   2   made out of a roll-on deodorant was not considered to be a

   3   weapon.

   4   Q.  And did you then bring in and show -- or, strike that.

   5   Did you then interview the defendant in that case about a

   6   watercolor brush that he was found possessing that had a

   7   sharpened pointed and a dismantled track razor attached to the

   8   sharpened point of the water brush, and did you then describe

   9   to the jury in that case that:  "He was using this in, I

  10   guess, an arts and crafts way.  What he would do is he would

  11   take a sock and use the point of the watercolor brush to pull

  12   the elastic up, and then he would cut it with his little blade

  13   until he got all the elastic out of the sock.  Then he would

  14   completely unravel the sock, and with the string that he had,

  15   he would knot it to form a shape of letters.

  16            "He was making a knotted letter necklace for himself

  17   that had his nickname on it, which is Tweety for Tweety Bird,

  18   and he used the point of his water color brush to work the

  19   knots so that he could keep them straight.  So these two items

  20   that he had that were described as shanks, he was using to

  21   construct this intricately knotted necklace for himself."

  22            Do you recall giving that testimony and bringing the

  23   necklace into court?

  24   A.  Yes, sir.  Not the bat or the watercolor brush, but the

  25   necklace he had, yes.


   1   Q.  The pointed brush and the track razor that he had, you

   2   didn't bring to court, but the brush; is that correct?

   3   A.  I never had those other instruments.  Those were never in

   4   my possession.  They were confiscated by the staff.  But I did

   5   bring in the intricate necklace that he had knotted from sock

   6   yarn to try to place in context the items that had been found

   7   with the defendant in jail, correct, to display what they had

   8   been utilized for at least in part, yes.

   9   Q.  And to give your opinion that in fact they were used as

  10   arts and crafts supplies, correct?

  11   A.  In the construction of the necklace, yes.

  12   Q.  Now, you testified about the designation process, how

  13   someone is designated to different facilities within the

  14   Bureau of Prisons, which could be from a prison camp, to a

  15   medium security, to a penitentiary, to Marion, which is a

  16   little bit above the average penitentiary, to Florence

  17   Administrative Maximum, correct?

  18   A.  That's correct.

  19   Q.  And it's a fact, is it not, that you yourself have never

  20   actually participated in the designation process, since you

  21   are not a Bureau of Prisons employee?

  22   A.  That's correct.

  23   Q.  And you have testified in a number of cases about the

  24   control -- about Florence Administrative Maximum, which is the

  25   most secure prison, and about the control unit within that


   1   prison, correct?

   2   A.  That's correct.

   3   Q.  And you have testified in a number of cases about the risk

   4   of violence posed by a given defendant, and making reference

   5   to the security facilities at Florence Administrative Maximum

   6   and the control unit, correct?

   7   A.  Yes, sir.

   8   Q.  And you testified in the case of Carroll Lamont Johnson in

   9   Chicago that your belief was that Carroll Lamont Johnson would

  10   go to the facility at Florence ADX, correct?

  11   A.  No, sir, I don't recall expressing a belief that someone

  12   was going to go to a given facility.  What I describe is that

  13   that facility is available, should the Bureau of Prisons

  14   believe that this person is a disproportionate risk.

  15   Q.  But you testified about the security mechanisms at

  16   Florence Administrative Maximum in a number of different

  17   cases.

  18            Are you aware that only one of the defendants you

  19   have testified about has ever gone to the Florence

  20   Administrative Maximum?

  21   A.  Let me try to mentally review the testimony.  The

  22   defendants, I do know of one who was gone and that may well be

  23   the only defendant whose case I testified in.

  24   Q.  And his name, sir?

  25   A.  I think that that is Anthony Jones.


   1   Q.  I just wanted to make sure there wasn't a second one.

   2            Are you aware Anthony Jones never went to the control

   3   unit?

   4   A.  I was not aware of what unit he was on in ADX.

   5   Q.  And have you ever heard of any inmate assigned to the

   6   control unit permanently, yes or no?

   7   A.  Not in terms of the formal control unit.  Silverstein and

   8   Fountain are in control-unit-like settings, but they are not

   9   in a formal control unit.

  10   Q.  So that would be a "no"?

  11   A.  That's correct.

  12   Q.  And are you aware that the persons you referred to as the

  13   Oklahoma City bomber McVeigh when he was confined was not in

  14   the control unit?

  15   A.  I'm not familiar with where he was confined in ADX.

  16   Q.  Are you aware that Ramzi Yousef, the World Trade Center

  17   bomber, and Kaczynski, the Unabomber, were not in the control

  18   unit?

  19   A.  I'm not familiar with what unit of ADX they were confined

  20   in.

  21   Q.  And in going about making a designation, the Bureau of

  22   Prisons has to also take into account, does it not, who else

  23   might be at the same facility, correct?

  24   A.  Yes, sir.

  25   Q.  And are you familiar with a person by the name of Mohamed


   1   Rashed Dauod Al-'Owhali, who is a defendant in this case?

   2   A.  Only by the vaguest name.

   3   Q.  And do you understand that he could be a candidate for the

   4   Florence ADX?

   5   A.  I would expect that.

   6   Q.  And do you know a defendant by the name of, heard of a

   7   defendant by the name of Mohamed Odeh?

   8   A.  No, sir.

   9   Q.  So you obviously wouldn't have an opinion whether he could

  10   be a candidate for ADX.

  11            Are you familiar with a defendant by the name of

  12   Mamdouh Salim?

  13   A.  Only by name.

  14   Q.  Are you familiar with whether he will be a candidate for

  15   Florence ADX?

  16   A.  I would expect that he would.

  17            MR. RUHNKE:  Object to the question.

  18            THE COURT:  Overruled.

  19   Q.  Are you familiar with an inmate known as Wali Kahn Amin

  20   Shah?

  21   A.  No, sir.

  22   Q.  Are you aware that that person was convicted of trying to

  23   blow up 12 airplanes at one time in the Philippines?

  24   A.  I'm not familiar with his case.

  25   Q.  And do you know if he committed escape after he was being


   1   housed in the Bureau of Prisons facility?

   2   A.  I'm not familiar with his case.

   3   Q.  Would you understand him to be a candidate for the

   4   Florence ADX when he is designated?

   5   A.  I would expect so.  If he has escaped, that would be one

   6   of the criteria, as well as the terrorist activity.

   7   Q.  Are you aware that Ramzi Yousef is in Florence ADX as we

   8   speak, correct?

   9   A.  That's correct.

  10   Q.  Would you assume that if Usama Bin Laden was caught that,

  11   he would be a candidate for the ADX facility?

  12   A.  I assume so.

  13   Q.  And are you aware that the Bureau of Prisons has to

  14   factor, in determining who can go to the Florence ADX

  15   facility, how many different people who may be related in a

  16   group can be in the same facility at one time?

  17   A.  I would expect that would be a consideration.

  18   Q.  And you talked earlier today, you displayed a chart

  19   showing the perimeter security of the Florence ADX facility

  20   with an outside wall and an inside wall and the inside fence

  21   had razor wire, correct?

  22   A.  That's my recollection.

  23   Q.  And it had six control towers where guards presumably

  24   could be stationed, correct?

  25   A.  That's my understanding.


   1   Q.  Are you aware that back before ADX existed, when the

   2   Marion control unit was the most secure facility, that there

   3   was an armed assault on the Marion control unit in 1982 where

   4   shots were fired on the control towers, where people climbed

   5   over the fence, using boards to depress the sharp razor wire,

   6   would get into the second fence, and where the warden and

   7   other staff responded and came under gunfire?

   8   A.  I'm not familiar with that incident, no.

   9   Q.  So certainly one of the things that the Bureau of Prisons

  10   would have to factor in as to where people could be housed

  11   obviously would be how many other inmates they may be related

  12   to or know could be housed there, correct?

  13   A.  I would assume that's a consideration, yes.

  14   Q.  You talked about the conditions of confinement within the

  15   Florence ADX, and we will talk about other penitentiaries

  16   later, but assuming for the moment that someone is confined,

  17   at least for a time, at the Florence Administrative Maximum

  18   facility, are you aware that the concrete in the cells has

  19   been broken apart by inmates and in fact thrown through that

  20   window that you showed us in the photographs earlier today?

  21   A.  I'm aware of a single disciplinary incident that had a

  22   write-up where an inmate had destroyed the inside of a cell

  23   and used a portion of the desk or shelf to break the thin slit

  24   window.

  25   Q.  And you are aware that those television sets that you saw


   1   in the photograph that are on the concrete slab sticking out

   2   of the wall are not secured, correct?

   3   A.  That's correct.

   4   Q.  And you are aware that some of the incident reports have

   5   involved inmates picking up the television set when the

   6   officers are in that sallyport at the grill, throwing the

   7   television set at the grill, the television set breaking, and

   8   part of the television set striking an officer in the eye?

   9   A.  There is a disciplinary report that describes a television

  10   hitting the floor at the base of the grate and a piece of the

  11   glass from it striking the officer in the eye, that's correct.

  12   Q.  And you are aware, also, that from what you have read

  13   about Florence and the tour you took, are you aware that a

  14   number of different items in the various cells have been

  15   broken apart to be used as weapons, and at times been replaced

  16   with arts and crafts supplies?

  17   A.  I'm not familiar with those.  I don't recall those

  18   disciplinary write-ups.  That may well have happened.  I'm

  19   simply unfamiliar with it.

  20   Q.  The disciplinary write-ups often just say "possession of a

  21   weapon," correct?

  22   A.  Yes, sir.  Typically there is a description then that goes

  23   along with that.

  24   Q.  But they don't always indicate what items in the cell were

  25   fashioned into weapons and then used, correct?


   1   A.  The disciplinary reports are relatively specific about

   2   what it is that was found.

   3   Q.  But you haven't spoken to a person who works within

   4   Florence ADX to ask them what type of materials have actually

   5   been broken apart in a cell and fashioned into weapons, have

   6   you?

   7   A.  No, sir.  I have requested additional information from

   8   ADX, but I have not gotten that.

   9   Q.  Are you aware that toothbrushes, combs, brushes have been

  10   filed down against the concrete in the wall and made into

  11   weapons?

  12   A.  I recall a toothbrush, there was an attempt that was made

  13   to bury it outside and the individual was caught.  I don't

  14   recall the combs being filed down.

  15            There is an inmate that had an assault with a comb

  16   before he came to ADX, and that disciplinary record ended up

  17   in his ADX file as if it had happened there, but in fact it

  18   happened in another facility.  I don't recall reading about a

  19   comb being filed down in ADX.

  20   Q.  And you are basing your understanding of what you have

  21   read and reports that were produced to you, not from your own

  22   experience or from --

  23   A.  That's correct.  That's from the couple of boxes of

  24   disciplinary reports that were presented to me as containing

  25   all of the assaults.  Although that was missing 1999.


   1   Q.  And containing the reports of all the assaults, correct?

   2   A.  That's correct.

   3   Q.  And are you aware that spears could be made from within

   4   ADX by rolling up a newspaper, hardening it, making it tight,

   5   and fashioning plastic glass or another item at the end of the

   6   spear to use as a spear to throw at officers when they come

   7   through the grill?

   8   A.  I don't recall reading those disciplinaries.  I have read

   9   of that happening in other facilities.  I don't recall reading

  10   disciplinaries of that happening at ADX.

  11   Q.  Do you recall reading about an inmate named Silver Fox who

  12   took such a spear and threw it at an officer and missed when

  13   the officer came through the grill, and then later admitted

  14   that the spear was made out of something from a stapler

  15   fashioned to the end of a newspaper?

  16   A.  I would have to look at Silver.  I remember Silver Fox as

  17   the same inmate that used part of a typewriter.  I would need

  18   to look at his disciplinary again.  I don't recall the spear

  19   issue specifically.  He was involved in this other incident

  20   with a typewriter.

  21   Q.  Have you heard of spears being used at other high-security

  22   prisons to assault officers made from newspaper?

  23   A.  Not at ADX, but in USPs, other similar high-security

  24   prisons, yes, there are paper polls that have been used.

  25   Q.  Have you heard of an incident in San Quentin where an


   1   inmate used a spear with a newspaper, who threw it at one

   2   officer and into a second officer and killed both?

   3   A.  No sir, I'm not familiar with that.

   4   Q.  Are you familiar with the fact that inmates can hide

   5   weapons even in the Florence ADX and other penitentiaries?

   6   A.  That they would attempt to.  The staff at ADX seems to be

   7   pretty vigilant about finding those, but there certainly are

   8   attempts to secrete weapons.

   9   Q.  And are you aware that inmates can hide razor blades

  10   between their cheek and the upper part of their mouth that

  11   will not be detected by x-rays?

  12   A.  No, sir, I am not familiar with that.  I don't recall

  13   reading that in any of the disciplinaries from ADX.

  14   Q.  Forgetting the box of reports.  Have you learned from

  15   anyone, from your experience with the prison system, that

  16   inmates can secrete razor blades in the roof of their mouths,

  17   safely, retrieve them easily, and not be detected by an x-ray?

  18   A.  No, sir, I'm not familiar with that.

  19   Q.  Have you heard of inmates being found to have weapons in

  20   their rectum when x-rayed at Florence ADX?

  21   A.  I'm not certain.  I recall their being x-rayed and weapons

  22   being found of varying sorts and some of receiving materials

  23   and that sort of thing.  I'm familiar with weapons being

  24   secreted in someone's rectum.  I don't recall a specific

  25   instance at ADX.


   1   Q.  Are you aware that inmates can make homemade handcuff

   2   keys?

   3   A.  Yes, sir.

   4   Q.  And have you learned from your experience with the Bureau

   5   of Prisons and from your readings that an inmate going from

   6   the Marion facility to the ADX facility was found to have a

   7   handcuff key secreted on him?

   8   A.  I'm not surprised at all.  There was a good amount of

   9   contraband that was confiscated from inmates as they came into

  10   that facility.  As all their belongings were x-rayed and as

  11   they were x-rayed, there were a number of different types of

  12   contraband that were identified.

  13   Q.  Do you know who handles the laundry at the Florence ADX

  14   facility?

  15   A.  The staff initially as it's gathered from the inmates.  In

  16   terms of who performs the laundry, that I don't know.

  17   Q.  Are you aware that it is the federal prison camp inmates

  18   who do the laundry, and are you aware that five guys in the

  19   federal prison camp doing the laundry were found to be sewing

  20   handcuff keys in the laundry going to the Florence ADX

  21   facility?

  22   A.  No, sir, I'm not familiar with that.

  23   Q.  Are you aware that prisoners can make what are called

  24   shims, what are not keys, but can break open the cuffs where

  25   the teeth meet?


   1   A.  I'm not familiar with that.

   2   Q.  So you have never heard of a shim?

   3   A.  I've heard of shims.  I don't recall specific knowledge of

   4   how those were applied to handcuff keys.

   5   Q.  Have you heard of inmates able to break cuffs open with

   6   their own hands, by the force of their hands?

   7   A.  No, sir.  I have heard of inmates who could slip the

   8   handcuffs by kind of compressing or dislocating their bones,

   9   their fingers.  I don't recall reading of an inmate who by

  10   just super-strength broke the wrist connection.

  11   Q.  And forgetting whether you read it from any source, have

  12   you learned of inmates being able to break open multiple

  13   handcuffs on them at once?

  14   A.  I'm not familiar with that.

  15   Q.  Now, you're aware that even in Florence, if we assume for

  16   the moment Florence Administrative Maximum, not even a regular

  17   penitentiary, that in that sallyport area where a person steps

  18   through the solid door and is by the grill, they are now

  19   exposed through the wicket if the inmate seeks to grab it,

  20   correct?

  21   A.  Well, they are out of arm's length in terms of an inmate

  22   attempting to grab them, unless they step up closer to the

  23   grate.

  24   Q.  Well, they are going to put their hands through and

  25   handcuff the inmate, so wouldn't they be, by definition,


   1   within arm's length if they are touching the inmate's hands?

   2   A.  As the inmate backs up to them, he is putting his hands

   3   through the wicket.  Now, if he attempted to spin on them,

   4   then potentially he could try to access them, but that

   5   requires both a spin and then some kind of a jab before the

   6   person who is there can step back out of arm's length.

   7   Q.  Well, let me ask this in two questions.  From your review

   8   of the reports, did you read two reports where inmates stabbed

   9   correction officers with pens while the officers were in the

  10   grill; yes or no?

  11   A.  No, sir.  I recall an instance where an inmate struck an

  12   officer in the face.  I don't recall officers being stabbed,

  13   although that may have been -- if it was 1999, I don't have

  14   those reports.

  15   Q.  So you will agree with me that when the officer was struck

  16   in the face, he clearly was in arm's length of the inmate,

  17   correct?

  18   A.  In that instance, certainly.

  19   Q.  And you told us earlier that when inmates step into the

  20   grill between the solid door and the grill in that sallyport

  21   area, sometimes liquids are thrown, correct?

  22   A.  When a staff member steps into the sallyport?

  23   Q.  Yes.  I'm sorry.

  24   A.  Then sometimes an inmate throws liquids from the interior

  25   of the cell or spits on them, yes.


   1   Q.  And the liquids most often thrown are urine and feces,

   2   correct?

   3   A.  There's a lot of spitting.  Sometimes the liquid is

   4   unknown, sometimes food.  But there is urine and feces, yes.

   5   Q.  Would it be fair to say that in those disciplinary reports

   6   there is a fair amount of reports showing urine and feces

   7   being saved up by an inmate and thrown on the officer when he

   8   steps into that area between the door and the grill, correct?

   9   A.  There are a number of those reports, that's correct.

  10   Q.  And if an officer loses his cool or her cool at that time,

  11   they are within arm's length of the inmate, correct?

  12   A.  I'm not sure I understand "losing their cool."  If they

  13   should approach the front of the grate in response to that?

  14   Q.  Yes.  When urine or feces is thrown in their face, if they

  15   should approach the grate, they would be within arm's length

  16   of an inmate, correct?

  17   A.  Assuming that the inmate was right up at the grate,

  18   certainly.

  19   Q.  And on a typical day in the Florence ADX facility, in

  20   addition to the time when the inmate is allowed out of the

  21   cell for an hour or two hours, or whatever the prescribed

  22   period of recreation is, he also is checked up on by staff,

  23   other staff, at least once a day, correct?

  24   A.  Oh, yes, sir.

  25   Q.  And if a person needs medical attention, there's usually a


   1   medical staff who makes a daily round to each cell regardless

   2   whether they have asked for medical attention, correct?

   3   A.  That's correct.  There are a number of staff members who

   4   make rounds to these cells each day.

   5   Q.  So a medical staff person goes into that sallyport between

   6   a solid door and the grill each day, correct?

   7   A.  Escorted with another staff member, yes.

   8   Q.  And if a prisoner is on medication, then up to four times

   9   a day a physician's assistant may step into that sallyport

  10   between the solid door and the grill, correct?

  11   A.  Certainly possible, yes.

  12   Q.  And then if a person needs psychological counseling or

  13   evaluation, a person would step into that area between the

  14   grill and the solid door, correct?

  15   A.  That's correct.  Again, escorted by a corrections officer.

  16   Q.  And the person, the department head, a department head is

  17   required once a week to visit each inmate, correct?

  18   A.  I don't recall the exact frequency that department heads

  19   have to go through.

  20   Q.  But they would then come to that sallyport area between

  21   the grill and the door, correct?

  22   A.  Yes, sir.

  23   Q.  And also there are unit team meetings for people in

  24   Florence ADX where the inmates are brought out to talk to a

  25   unit team on a weekly basis, correct?


   1   A.  I don't recall how often they come out to talk to the unit

   2   team, but they would come out for that or for disciplinary

   3   hearings.

   4   Q.  And inmates are also taken out of the cell to go to the

   5   law library, correct?

   6   A.  That's correct.

   7   Q.  And they are also taken out of the cell to get hair cuts,

   8   correct?

   9   A.  I don't recall how hair cuts are performed.  I would

  10   assume that they are because of the hygiene issue in the cell.

  11   Q.  And then the officers have to go take the inmate out of

  12   the cell when they do a cell rotation, correct?

  13   A.  Yes, sir.

  14   Q.  If an inmate refuses to leave his cell, the officers have

  15   to go into the cell, correct?

  16   A.  Well, there are several options they have.  Going into the

  17   cell is one.  They may gas the inmates or use some chemical

  18   agent.  They may use the stun gun if they identified that the

  19   inmate is armed or presents a particular hazard.  There are a

  20   number of ways of attempting to bring an inmate under control.

  21   Q.  And that's from your reading of the policy statements and

  22   materials on the Internet about the stun guns and the gassing,

  23   correct?

  24            Have you ever heard of a staff person at Florence ADX

  25   using gas or a stun gun simply because the inmate seeks to


   1   leave the cell for a cell rotation?

   2   A.  No, sir, but the stun gun was used to quell a disturbance.

   3   But I have not seen it used simply to bring someone out,

   4   although the regulations provide for that.

   5   Q.  My question was, have you ever heard of someone using a

   6   stun gun or gas to remove an inmate simply because he refused

   7   to leave the cell?  The answer would be --

   8   A.  I don't have knowledge of that one way or the other.

   9   Q.  And you're also aware if an inmate becomes ill, becomes

  10   seriously ill in the cell, the officers have to enter,

  11   correct?

  12   A.  That is correct.

  13   Q.  And are you aware of an incident, not in the Florence

  14   Administrative Maximum, but involving high-security prisoners

  15   at Lompoc in 1999 where two inmates apparently attached each

  16   other, one kicking the other in the head, apparently knocking

  17   him unconscious on the floor; when the officer, when she

  18   called to the control unit to open the door, both inmates

  19   popped out at the same time, slashed her through the face,

  20   cutting right through her skin?

  21   A.  I'm not familiar with that attack, no.

  22   Q.  And obviously once an inmate, if they leave ADX, they can

  23   then go to an open penitentiary, correct?

  24   A.  Typically when they leave ADX, they would go to a USP and

  25   not to Marion, which is the in-between step.


   1   Q.  When they go to a U.S. penitentiary, they are out of their

   2   cells for the bulk of the daylight time, correct?

   3   A.  That's correct.  If they were classed as general

   4   population when they got to the USP, they would.  If they are

   5   in maximum custody, there would be some restrictions about

   6   their movements and supervision and work they do.  There are

   7   levels of custody within a USP.

   8   Q.  But in a United States penitentiary, a typical inmate in a

   9   penitentiary is able to walk about freely, unrestrained, no

  10   three-man hold, no two-man hold, no one-man hold, they walk

  11   about within the prison if they stay in their designated area,

  12   correct?

  13   A.  That's correct.  Their activities and movements are

  14   programmed substantially, but they are not, they are not

  15   restrained as they are moved.

  16   Q.  Now, you displayed during direct testimony a chart.  I

  17   think it was entitled "Bombers and Terrorists in Bureau of

  18   Prisons Custody."

  19            If I could ask Katie to display that page.  Then just

  20   so we're clear, this is a chart you have created from the data

  21   provided by the Bureau of Prisons.  This is not a peer

  22   reviewed psychological study, correct?

  23   A.  This is data provided by the Bureau of Prisons through

  24   your offices, I believe.

  25   Q.  And who chose the 17 names to put on the chart?


   1   A.  I'm sorry.  What?

   2   Q.  Who chose which 17 names to put on the chart?

   3   A.  These were all 17 that I had data on.

   4   Q.  But who chose what 17 names to ask for data concerning?

   5   A.  I had asked Mr. Ruhnke to gather data on anyone in the

   6   Bureau of Prisons who had been convicted of a terrorist or

   7   bombing sort of incident, to provide base rate data for what

   8   the experience with those individuals was in federal custody.

   9   Q.  The answer would be, you asked Mr. Ruhnke?

  10   A.  That's correct.

  11   Q.  Okay.

  12   A.  He may have done it on his own, but I was interested in it

  13   as well.

  14   Q.  But these names were not provided by the Bureau of Prisons

  15   or the government as a single group, correct, except in

  16   response to your request?

  17   A.  I don't know where the -- I don't know how those names

  18   were generated.  I asked for anybody who was in the system who

  19   would be described in this way.

  20   Q.  Now if you look at the first name, Ahmad Mohammad Ajaj?

  21   A.  Yes, sir.

  22   Q.  And it indicates one minor assault?

  23   A.  Yes, sir.

  24   Q.  Did you see any other behavior that caught your attention

  25   in his disciplinary file that would cause you concern about


   1   security besides the one minor assault?

   2   A.  There may have been.  Let me turn to my notes on him.

   3            If we go back to the beginning of -- the short answer

   4   to your question is, he has other disciplinaries.  Some of

   5   those occurred pretrial.  Some have occurred since the trial.

   6            Any disciplinary I suppose has some relevance to

   7   security, but there is the most concern about ones that are

   8   assaultive in nature or maybe, secondarily, involve a weapons

   9   contraband.

  10   Q.  And I'll clarify.  We will agree that the data starts, the

  11   raw data you worked with that you just checked, starts from

  12   the day that a particular inmate such as Ajaj entered the

  13   prison system even if they were a pretrial inmate, correct?

  14   A.  No, sir.  The data that you provided starts with him being

  15   a pretrial inmate.  I begin to log it from the point that they

  16   entered into Bureau of Prisons, so that it would be

  17   post-trial.

  18   Q.  I think we're missing each other.

  19   A.  Sorry.

  20   Q.  I'll give you an example.  If an inmate was arrested on

  21   January 1st, 1990 and was put in a federal facility awaiting

  22   trial?

  23   A.  Yes, sir.

  24   Q.  Was convicted on January 1st, 1995?

  25   A.  Yes, sir.


   1   Q.  He would be a pretrial inmate for the first five years?

   2   A.  Yes, sir.

   3   Q.  And then a convicted inmate doing a designated Bureau of

   4   Prisons time for the balance?

   5   A.  That's correct.

   6   Q.  The raw data you received was the data starting at 1990,

   7   but so we are clear, in terms of after-sentencing admission,

   8   which is what you designated on the chart, would start from

   9   January 1, 1995 for that hypothetical?

  10   A.  That's correct.

  11   Q.  Forgetting the first however many years Mr. Ajaj was in

  12   prison as a pre-sentence inmate, did you see any conduct post

  13   sentencing that caused you concern about security besides the

  14   assault listed?

  15   A.  Do you want me to report the disciplinaries that he was

  16   written up for?

  17   Q.  No, I just want to see if there was anything that struck

  18   you as a particular concern in reviewing those records that

  19   would cause particular concern about security for Ahmad

  20   Mohammad Ajaj other than the assault, yes or no; and if yes,

  21   tell me what it is.  Post sentence.

  22   A.  There is an assault without serious injury on March the

  23   12th, 1994.  His original date of sentencing was in 1993.  So

  24   that would have been after the original sentence.  He has a

  25   number of other disciplinaries, again that I think all have


   1   security significance but not the significance of an assault

   2   or a dangerous weapon.

   3   Q.  Okay.

   4   A.  In other words, an inmate who has no write-ups whatsoever

   5   has a better security profile in many ways than one that has

   6   three, four, eight, ten write-ups, even if they are for

   7   non-violent sorts of things, but we are most concerned with

   8   tracking the violence incidents in terms of looking at base

   9   rates of violence in prison.

  10   Q.  Are you aware that in May 1995 Ahmad Ajaj was caught

  11   dialing a staff phone, and then in May 1997 he was caught

  12   using the mail or phone without authorization, and that on

  13   December 23rd, 1999, he was caught making a three-way call,

  14   which means a call patched through to a different number,

  15   which would defeat the prison phone-monitoring system?

  16   A.  Yes, sir.  He has several write-ups for unauthorized phone

  17   calls.

  18   Q.  Are you aware that Ahmad Mohammad Ajaj was first taken

  19   into custody in late August to early September 1992, with an

  20   immigration violation, was found to be in possession of bomb

  21   manuals, and that thereafter, while incarcerated in a federal

  22   facility, he was making telephone calls, including three-way

  23   telephone calls, to try to get his then lawyer to surrender to

  24   obtain a bomb manual so that he could get it to the World

  25   Trade Center bombers?


   1   A.  I'm not familiar with the specifics of his case.  All the

   2   information that I have about these individuals was in the

   3   packet that you provided.

   4   Q.  So given that, when you looked at this chart, you did not

   5   include in this chart the three instances where he tried to

   6   use a staff phone, use a phone or mail without authorization,

   7   or was caught making a three-way call; it is not reflected on

   8   this chart of incidents that happened after sentencing,

   9   correct?

  10   A.  That's correct.

  11            I did, as I did that, evaluate what sort of sanctions

  12   the individual may have come under in terms of trying to

  13   identify how seriously did the staff regard the particular

  14   incident.  And so, for example, on 6/23, the consequence was a

  15   loss of phone privileges for 60 days.

  16   Q.  My question to you simply was, you didn't reflect those

  17   incidents on the chart?

  18   A.  The answer is yes, not on the chart.  I thought about

  19   them, but not on the chart.

  20   Q.  Now, with regard to Mr. Nidal Ayyad, the fourth person

  21   listed on that chart -- I'm sorry.  If we could go down, Fares

  22   Khallafalla, Mohammed Saleh, Victor Alvarez, Fadil Abdelgani,

  23   Amir Abdelgani, Clement Hampton-El, are you aware that all of

  24   those people were convicted of the crimes of conspiring to

  25   carry out a bombing that did not take place or were not


   1   convicted of an actual bombing?

   2   A.  That's my understanding.

   3   Q.  And are you aware that their sentences ranged generally

   4   from between 25 to 35 years, correct?

   5   A.  I would need to go back and look at the sentencing data

   6   specifically.  I don't recall.  I'll accept that, but I don't

   7   recall their specific sentencing data.

   8   Q.  With regard to Mr. Victor Alvarez, which indicates

   9   mentally ill, are you aware that he was not sent to

  10   Springfield as a person who was mentally ill until early 2001,

  11   and that all ten minor assaults and two dangerous weapons

  12   listed there occurred while at the penitentiary at Marion,

  13   that you described as being above a regular penitentiary and

  14   below the Florence Administrative Maximum?

  15   A.  No, sir.  I have him identified by Springfield as mentally

  16   ill on 10/22/99, and there are disciplinary reports even

  17   before that that describe him smearing his feces on the wall

  18   and not attending to his hygiene and other sorts of things

  19   that would give some indication of somebody who has some

  20   significant psychological disturbance.

  21   Q.  Let me ask it this way.  September 1997 when he possessed

  22   a dangerous weapon, was that Marion?  In September 1997 when

  23   he assaulted with serious injury an officer, was that at the

  24   Marion facility?

  25   A.  Wait for me to catch up.


   1   Q.  I'll make it easier so you will look all at once.

   2            Would it be fair to say that all, at least most, if

   3   not all, of those incidents you listed on the chart occurred

   4   at the Marion facility?

   5   A.  That's correct.

   6   Q.  Sir, if you move further down, you see the name El sayyid

   7   Nosair.  It indicates no write-ups.

   8            Just tell me when you are ready.

   9   A.  That's correct.

  10   Q.  And are you aware that El Sayyid Nosair was convicted of

  11   being part of a conspiracy to bomb landmarks, and including as

  12   an overt act the World Trade Center, but was not actually

  13   convicted of the World Trade Center bombing?

  14   A.  My understanding is that he was, that all of these

  15   individuals were convicted of bombing conspiracies.  I don't

  16   have, again, specific knowledge of exactly what role he

  17   played.

  18   Q.  Are you aware that El Sayyid Nosair was housed in the

  19   segregated housing unit at Attica State Prison from 1991

  20   forward, and that his participation in the plot to blow up

  21   landmarks and his consultation with the World Trade Center

  22   bombers before the bombing of the World Trade Center occurred

  23   while in the segregated housing unit at Attica?

  24   A.  I was not provided that information, no.

  25   Q.  Are you aware that he plotted to bomb synagogues, kill a


   1   judge, and kill other officials while in the segregated

   2   housing unit at Attica?

   3   A.  No, sir.  This is, all the information I have is what was

   4   provided as disciplinaries by BOP.

   5   Q.  And do you have any reason to doubt, if one ran a

   6   statistical chart of El Sayyid Nosair's conduct while at

   7   Attica, there would be no incidents reflecting what he did for

   8   which he was later convicted in federal court.

   9   Q.  These statistics count assaults and incidents that are

  10   detected and proven, correct?

  11   A.  That's correct.

  12   Q.  Now, you also have Omar Abdel Rahman listed, with the

  13   notation blind, indicating there are no assaults, correct?

  14   A.  That's correct.

  15   Q.  And in reviewing his records, did you notice that in July

  16   1996 he was found to have used phone or mail without

  17   authorization?

  18   A.  I can find that one.  He had many violations that were of

  19   a non-assaultive nature.

  20   Q.  And if you could look for three.  If you could see in July

  21   of 1996 he was found to have used the phone or mail without

  22   authorization, and October of 1996 he admitted attempting a

  23   three-way call, and in December of 1998 he threatened an

  24   officer?

  25   A.  July of '96, using the phone or mail without


   1   authorization, loss of privileges seven days.

   2            Then when was the next one?

   3   Q.  October '96, admitted attempting to make a three-way call?

   4   A.  October of '96, admitted he made a three-way call.

   5   Q.  And December 1998, threatening an officer?

   6   A.  Threatening bodily harm, that's correct.

   7   Q.  Now, sir, are you aware that he was under special

   8   administrative measures at the time of those three incidents?

   9   A.  I'm not sure if I saw a SAM on him.  I looked at a couple

  10   of them.

  11   Q.  Are you aware that, placing in context the violations

  12   involving three-way calls and using the phone without

  13   authorization and threatening an officer, are you aware that

  14   during this time frame covered by your chart, in May 1997,

  15   after he publicly complained about his prison conditions under

  16   the special administrative measures, that a terrorist group

  17   known as the Islamic Group threatened to kill the warden of

  18   the prison and threatened to kill a judge from his trial?

  19   A.  I'm not familiar with that.

  20   Q.  So that would not show up under Omar Abdel Rahman's

  21   statistics here?

  22   A.  No, sir.

  23   Q.  Are you aware that in November of 1997, that more than 60

  24   tourists were killed in Egypt at a tourist site and they were

  25   killed and notes were left that "this is to free Sheik Omar


   1   Abdel Rahman?

   2   A.  I recall the tourists being killed.  I don't recall the

   3   statement about what was the rationale for it.

   4   Q.  And are you aware that, following that, he issued a

   5   statement through a paralegal, in violation of the special

   6   administrative measures, indicating he was aware of the

   7   killings and would have no comment and issued no condemnation?

   8   A.  I'm not aware of that.

   9   Q.  Are you aware that in June 2000, at a time when the

  10   terrorist group had declared a cease fire, after a visit by an

  11   attorney, in violation of the special administrative measures,

  12   a statement was issued on behalf of Omar Abdel Rahman

  13   withdrawing his support for the cease fire?

  14   A.  I'm not aware of that.

  15   Q.  Are you aware that in the spring of 2001, earlier this

  16   year, 73 people were kidnapped in the Philippines, demanding

  17   the release of Omar Abdel Rahman and Ramzi Yousef and several

  18   killed?

  19   A.  I'm familiar with the kidnapping, not the ransom demand.

  20   Q.  So your chart simply says "Omar Abdel Rahman, no

  21   assaults," correct?

  22   A.  That's correct.

  23   Q.  On this chart you list Theodore Kaczynski and Terry Lynn

  24   Nichols, correct?

  25   A.  That's correct.


   1   Q.  To your knowledge, none of those fellows have ever been to

   2   Afghanistan, correct?

   3   A.  Best of my knowledge.

   4   Q.  And among the people on this chart, how many of these 17

   5   names are people who committed a terrorist act overseas and

   6   then was brought back to America to stand trial?

   7   A.  None of these individuals.  However, where they were

   8   apprehended, their terrorist acts or conspiracies were in the

   9   continental United States.  I don't know where they were

  10   apprehended.

  11   Q.  Are you aware that Ramzi Amed Yousef, the third name from

  12   the bottom, was not only convicted of bombing the World Trade

  13   Center, but was part of a plot to blow up 12 airplanes

  14   centered in the Philippines in late 1994, early 1995?

  15   A.  Only a vague recollection of that.

  16   Q.  Are you aware that two of his codefendants were convicted

  17   at the same trial in this courthouse in 1996 named Wali Kahn

  18   Amin Shah and Abdel Hakim Murad?

  19   A.  I'm not familiar with the specifics.

  20   Q.  And those other defendants who were arrested for

  21   committing a terrorist act overseas and brought back here are

  22   not reflected on that chart, correct?

  23   A.  Unless their names, unless those named were provided to

  24   me, they wouldn't have been reflected on the chart.

  25   Q.  Did you ask for those names?


   1   A.  I asked for anyone who was a terrorist or bomber who was

   2   in the custody of BOP so we could do follow-up.

   3   Q.  Who did you ask?

   4   A.  I passed that on to Mr. Ruhnke.

   5   Q.  Are you aware that the person by the name of Abdel Hakim

   6   Murad committed an assault on a corrections officer at a

   7   prison?

   8   A.  What is the name?

   9   Q.  Abdel Hakim Murad.  Are you aware that he has pled guilty

  10   to an assault with serious injury involving striking a

  11   corrections officer since the time of his conviction?

  12   A.  Can you orient me to which one he is?

  13   Q.  He's not on the chart.  He is one of the people who was

  14   arrested with Ramzi Yousef for committing a terrorist act

  15   overseas and brought back here.

  16   A.  I have no knowledge of any terrorists or bombers or their

  17   conduct from BOP unless they are on this chart.

  18   Q.  You are familiar with a person by name the Ghazi Abu Mazer

  19   who was convicted of a plot to bomb a subway in Brooklyn

  20   several years back?

  21   A.  No, sir.

  22   Q.  Are you aware whether he, six months ago, committed an

  23   assault within the penitentiary at Florence?

  24   A.  I'm not aware of that.  Sir, what is the name?

  25   Q.  Ghazi Abu Mazer.


   1   A.  I may have seen the disciplinary of his assault in the

   2   most recent materials that were provided to me.

   3   Q.  He was in the penitentiary, not the administrative

   4   maximum?

   5   A.  No, I would not have seen that.

   6   Q.  Okay.  We can put the chart down for a moment.

   7            You talked about the special administrative measures

   8   and you also talked about the fact that no murders or

   9   homicides had occurred in the ADX facility, correct?

  10   A.  That's correct.

  11   Q.  And that would include the year 1997, correct?

  12   A.  That's correct.

  13   Q.  And that would include the month of August, 1997, correct?

  14   A.  Yes, sir.

  15   Q.  And have you learned from your study of the Bureau of

  16   Prisons and the penitentiary at Florence and your review of

  17   other testimony that in August 1997 a man confined at the

  18   Florence ADX facility passed word to carry out murders in

  19   other prisons, and within a short time after passing a coded

  20   message, two inmates were killed in the Lewisburg

  21   penitentiary, are you familiar with that?

  22   A.  I have heard the allegation.  I have not seen

  23   substantiation of it, but I have heard the allegation.

  24   Q.  Have you seen testimony in federal court in the Carroll

  25   Lamont Johnson case in which you testified?


   1   A.  That allegation was made in that case.

   2   Q.  And that is some of the testimony you reviewed for this

   3   preparation for your testimony today, correct?

   4   A.  I don't remember reviewing John Vanyur's testimony.  I

   5   remember reviewing a number of other individuals, Warden

   6   Story, Hirschberger, some others.

   7   Q.  But you specifically recall the name of the witness who

   8   talked about that, correct?

   9   A.  John Vanyur.  Yes, I do.

  10   Q.  So the statistics for that month in August of 1997 at

  11   Lewisburg penitentiary would have two homicides, correct?

  12   A.  If those occurred in Lewisburg at that time, then those

  13   would be reflected in the Lewisburg statistics, yes.

  14   Q.  And there would be a zero in the Florence ADX statistics,

  15   correct?

  16   A.  Until there was a definite tie to that individual or he

  17   were convicted either of a disciplinary offense involving that

  18   or in a court of law.

  19   Q.  But the homicide was committed in Lewisburg, correct?

  20   A.  That's my understanding.

  21   Q.  And you are aware that prisoners have sent messages out by

  22   writing with lemon juice on notes where they can be read later

  23   by another prisoner; have you heard that in your study of the

  24   prisons?

  25   A.  I don't think that I have.


   1   Q.  Have you heard of inmates talking through the toilets in

   2   the plumbing systems to each other on the next floor?

   3   A.  Yes, I have.

   4   Q.  And you have heard of inmates using codes to communicate

   5   with each other?

   6   A.  Yes, I have.

   7   Q.  Have you heard of one of the codes being someone sending a

   8   message that someone had a boy that weighed eight pounds,

   9   seven ounces, and then the message was one boy, eight pounds,

  10   seven ounces means one, eight, seven, which is the California

  11   penal code designation for homicide, which was an order to

  12   kill?

  13   A.  I'm not familiar with the specifics of what codes may have

  14   been used at different times.

  15   Q.  So if codes were passed and people were killed and not

  16   detected, they would not appear in those statistics, correct?

  17   A.  That's correct.

  18            MR. FITZGERALD:  If I could have one moment, your

  19   Honor, your Honor.

  20            Actually, if we could break to queue up an exhibit.

  21            THE COURT:  We can break at this point.

  22            (Recess)





   1            (In open court; jury present)

   2            JUROR:  Is it possible to have some air conditioning?

   3            THE COURT:  It is possible.  We will order it.

   4   Whether it will actually make any difference before 4:30 or

   5   not I don't know.  But thank you for telling me and yes, we

   6   will tell them to put it on.


   8   Q.  Dr. Cunningham, one other question regarding the incident

   9   in Lewisburg.  Are you aware that the inmate who carried out

  10   the homicide in Lewisburg used to be an inmate housed at the

  11   Florence ADX facility?

  12   A.  No, I was not.

  13   Q.  People do leave the Florence facility and go to some other

  14   penitentiary?

  15   A.  Some of them do.

  16   Q.  You testified that the visiting room at the Florence ADX

  17   facility, the maximum security visiting room, has a solid

  18   glass material break between the person and the inmate and

  19   they speak by telephone, correct?

  20   A.  The visitor has a telephone, is my understanding.  The

  21   inmate on the other side does not have a telephone but speaks

  22   to a microphone.

  23   Q.  Are you aware that recently there was a lawsuit brought by

  24   an attorney who wished to speak to his client, so they changed

  25   the room to punch holes in the glass and eliminate the


   1   telephone?

   2   A.  I am not familiar with that.

   3   Q.  In your review of the disciplinary reports, did you see

   4   the disciplinary reports of an inmate named Jackson?  Did that

   5   catch your attention in reviewing those disciplinary reports

   6   from Florence ADX, an inmate named Jackson, or Yendell?

   7   A.  Yendell has some familiarity.  I don't recall Jackson

   8   specifically.  There were many names.

   9   Q.  Did you see a videotape that included a number of

  10   incidents, assaults in the prison that were captured on

  11   videotape?

  12   A.  Yes, I did.

  13   Q.  Do you recall the first incident caught on tape?

  14   A.  Can you give me a date?

  15   Q.  On the tape it should say April 8, 1997.

  16   A.  Yes, sir.

  17   Q.  Did you review that against the incident reports?  It

  18   appears that the date is wrong by a year, so I don't want to

  19   confuse you.  Did you review a report dated April 8, 1996,

  20   which corresponds to the first videotape, which says April 8,

  21   1997?

  22   A.  No, sir, I did not make that connection.  We looked for

  23   the incident report that corresponded to April 8 and couldn't

  24   find one that fit with that.  I didn't realize the year was

  25   wrong.


   1   Q.  Did you find any assault corresponding with April 8, 1997,

   2   which was the date indicated on the first videotape?

   3   A.  I would have to go back to the database and look at that.

   4            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, what I would like to do

   5   is ask Dr. Cunningham some questions about the first two

   6   assaults captured in the videotape, which is Government's

   7   Exhibit 4314.  I would offer that exhibit.  Again so that we

   8   are clear, it appears that the date on the report -- I will

   9   try and show you a copy.

  10            THE COURT:  This is an assault which took place

  11   where?

  12            MR. FITZGERALD:  In the Florence administrative

  13   maximum facility.

  14   Q.  If you would look at the report and feel comfortable that

  15   when we play the first incident the date is April 8, 1996, at

  16   sometime around 7:30.

  17            THE COURT:  The government is offering this as

  18   Exhibit 4314?

  19            MR. FITZGERALD:  Yes, Judge.

  20            THE COURT:  Received without objection.

  21            (Government Exhibit 4314 received in evidence)

  22            (Videotape played)

  23            MR. FITZGERALD:  Hold the tape there for a moment.

  24   Q.  Sir, does that correspond with the reports, if you recall,

  25   involving inmates Jackson, Yendell and Romero assaulting an


   1   inmate inside of Florence administrative maximum state prison?

   2   A.  Yes, it does.

   3   Q.  Are you aware that the inmate was then taken for emergency

   4   life-saving treatment to a hospital outside, the inmate who

   5   was kicked in the head repeatedly?

   6   A.  I don't recall that being a part of the disciplinary

   7   report.  I would accept that, but don't recall specifically

   8   seeing that described.  He was placed on a stretcher.

   9   Q.  You are aware, obviously, that corrections officers have

  10   to respond to the incident happening in that location with

  11   three inmates striking another inmate, correct?

  12   A.  That's correct.

  13   Q.  And you heard the officer scream Appleby, Appleby, get

  14   down, and if you look at the report, it indicates Appleby is

  15   not one of the inmates but off to the side, but you realize

  16   that officers have to worry about other inmates coming to an

  17   assault, correct?

  18   A.  That is correct.

  19   Q.  And bringing someone for medical care, that also presents

  20   a risk.

  21   A.  There is additional staffing required.  I don't know that

  22   the risk is greater but the intensity of staff is greater.

  23   Q.  You don't think an incident involving an assault when it

  24   happens like that and there is an issue where you have to take

  25   someone to be treated for medical attention, that doesn't


   1   present added risk to the staff?

   2   A.  Certainly to deal with the disturbance.  Certainly there

   3   is added risk there.  In terms of transporting him for medical

   4   care, given the personnel that is brought to bear, I don't

   5   know that that is an additional risk over other handling of

   6   the inmates that they do.  But certainly intervening is a

   7   risk.

   8   Q.  Based upon your review of the records, do you know the

   9   disciplinary measures that resulted to the individual inmates

  10   who were committing the assault, Jackson and Yendell?

  11   A.  One had 41 days of good conduct time taken and 60 days of

  12   disciplinary segregation.

  13   Q.  For 60 days he was put in a segregated cell, somewhat

  14   stricter than he had before, and lost 41 days of good conduct

  15   time, correct?

  16   A.  That is correct.

  17   Q.  Are you aware that after this incident, for a while no

  18   action was taken against the inmate Jackson because it was

  19   being considered for prosecution, and that therefore no

  20   discipline was taken for a year?  And let me show you and see

  21   if you recognize the next videotape, which also says April 8,

  22   1997, but I submit to you there is a report indicating that

  23   this one did happen April 8, 1997, a year to the day exactly

  24   after the first assault, involving the same inmate assaulting

  25   another inmate in Florence administrative maximum.  If you


   1   look at the time stamp, it says 7:42, so it is about five

   2   minutes off, a year apart, if we could play the next video.

   3            (Videotape played)

   4   Q.  Sir, are you aware that corrections officers have to wait

   5   until there is a sufficient number of them by ratio to the

   6   number of free inmates in the yard to respond; correct?

   7   A.  To actually enter the area, they may use gas or may use a

   8   stun gun while still within the cage.  But to enter the area,

   9   they have to substantially outnumber the inmates.

  10   Q.  And staff had to enter the yard and expose themselves to

  11   risk when they entered that situation; is that correct?

  12   A.  That is correct.

  13   Q.  And the inmate who was assaulted again had to be treated,

  14   correct?

  15   A.  That is correct.

  16   Q.  To the extent the other inmates may have hurt themselves

  17   in beating up the inmate had themselves to be treated,

  18   correct?

  19   A.  If they were injured.

  20   Q.  Would that expose the staff to risk, in your view?

  21   A.  The restraints regarding inmates getting medical care

  22   appear to successfully contain the risk to medical staff based

  23   on the reports that I reviewed.

  24   Q.  The reports that you reviewed from Florence ADX, did you

  25   see that the inmate Jackson who participated in the first


   1   assault April 8, 1996 at 7:42, thereafter when being treated

   2   at Florence ADX for medical attention assaulted the warden by

   3   lunging at him where he was being treated on April 8, 1997?

   4   A.  I would have to go back and review that.

   5   Q.  Sir, are you aware that on November 1, 2000 -- strike

   6   that.

   7            You testified earlier that you were familiar with the

   8   special administrative measures that were in effect currently

   9   with Khalfan Khamis Mohamed, and you were aware that there

  10   were special administrative measures in effect for both

  11   Khalfan Khamis Mohamed and Mamdouh Salim on November 1, 2000?

  12   Yes or no.

  13   A.  I am familiar -- yes, that is correct.

  14            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I would offer

  15   Government's Exhibit 4320 for identification, the special

  16   administrative measures, dated December 21, 1999, this one

  17   directed specifically to Khalfan Khamis Mohamed.

  18            MR. RUHNKE:  No objection.

  19            THE COURT:  Received.

  20            (Government Exhibit 4320 received in evidence)

  21            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, I would offer

  22   Government's Exhibit 4319 as well, which is the specific

  23   section post orders dated June 30, 2000, for the MCC 10 South

  24   unit.

  25            MR. RUHNKE:  No objection.


   1            THE COURT:  Received.

   2            (Government Exhibit 4319 received in evidence)

   3   Q.  Are you aware as of November 1, 2000, the post orders as

   4   written the policy required at any time of day that there be a

   5   three-man hold on the MCC 10 South unit?

   6   A.  I am not familiar with that requirement.

   7            MR. FITZGERALD:  Thank you.  Nothing further.

   8            THE COURT:  Redirect?

   9            MR. RUHNKE:  Yes, your Honor.


  11   BY MR. RUHNKE:

  12   Q.  Dr. Cunningham, you were asked some questions about

  13   whether certain inmates convicted in the World Trade Center

  14   bombing case, in the landmarks and tunnels case, as it is

  15   called, were sent to the control unit at the ADX in Florence.

  16   Do you remember those questions?

  17   A.  Yes, sir.

  18   Q.  Can you review again for the jury what the criteria are

  19   within the Bureau of Prisons for sending someone to a control

  20   unit.

  21   A.  Yes, sir.

  22   Q.  By way of preface to that review, I am going to ask you to

  23   answer this question:  Whether the offense of conviction, in

  24   other words, what the person has been convicted of, is

  25   generally a reason for sending someone to a control unit or is


   1   it instead behavior in prison after incarceration that serves

   2   as a criterion for admission to the control unit?

   3   A.  The regulation says that you can't be confined to the

   4   control unit solely because of the offense of conviction,

   5   although that may be considered.  The other aspects primarily

   6   have to do with behavior in prison.

   7   Q.  And assuming, assuming that the Bureau of Prisons draws

   8   the conclusion that an inmate was involved on one level or

   9   another in a serious assault on a corrections officer that led

  10   to the maiming of the corrections officer, not Khalfan Mohamed

  11   but some other hypothetical inmate, assuming the Bureau of

  12   Prisons drew that conclusion, is that person in your judgment

  13   based on your knowledge a prime, number one candidate for

  14   admission to a control unit?

  15   A.  Yes, sir.

  16   Q.  Do you know of any of the other inmates discussed by Mr.

  17   Fitzgerald that fit that criteria?

  18   A.  Not to my knowledge.

  19            MR. RUHNKE:  Could I have on the screen, if we could

  20   switch back to the defense, please, if we are not on the

  21   defense -- OK.

  22   Q.  You described ADX Florence as housing the worst of the

  23   worst.  Is that a fair statement?

  24   A.  That is correct.

  25   Q.  Would it be a fair description of the control unit to say


   1   it houses the worst of the worst of the worst?

   2   A.  Yes, sir.

   3   Q.  The figures that are displayed on the chart on the screen

   4   are figures that were provided by the government, is that

   5   correct?

   6   A.  That is correct.

   7   Q.  To date there has never been a homicide of an inmate at

   8   ADX Florence, is that correct?

   9   A.  That is correct.

  10   Q.  To date there has not been a homicide of a staff member at

  11   ADX Florence, is that correct?

  12   A.  That is correct.

  13   Q.  It is your information, subject to perhaps contradiction

  14   by the Bureau of Prisons, that there has never been an injury

  15   to a staff member sufficient to require outside

  16   hospitalization at ADX Florence; is that your understanding?

  17   A.  Yes, it is.

  18   Q.  The assault figures we are looking at on this chart, do

  19   they combine the control unit and the general ADMAX segment of

  20   ADX Florence?

  21   A.  Yes, they do.  I have asked for numbers specific to each

  22   setting and have not gotten those yet.

  23   Q.  The situation that Mr. Fitzgerald talked about concerning

  24   a modification of the visiting at ADX Florence, involving

  25   drilling holes through plexiglass, apparently, do you know if


   1   that extends to people other than attorneys?

   2   A.  No, I don't.

   3   Q.  Did you know anything about that at all?

   4   A.  No, I don't.

   5   Q.  You were asked about your hourly rate of $210 per hour.

   6   A.  Yes, sir.

   7   Q.  Are you familiar with the hourly rates charged by other

   8   board certified and not so board certified forensic

   9   psychologists around the country?

  10   A.  Yes, I am.

  11   Q.  In a range of rates, where does yours fit?

  12   A.  On the lower side.

  13   Q.  Have you been in cases where the United States has hired

  14   outside board certified psychologists and paid them an hourly

  15   rate?

  16   A.  Yes, sir.

  17   Q.  Can you give us an example of an hourly rate paid by the

  18   United States government to an outside board certified

  19   psychologist?

  20   A.  Up to 450 an hour.

  21   Q.  Do you know the name of the psychologist the government

  22   paid $450 an hour to consult on a capital case?

  23   A.  Dr. Tom Ryan.

  24   Q.  Are you aware of cases where the government has hired

  25   outside psychiatrists to testify or consult with the


   1   government in capital cases, federal capital cases, and the

   2   hourly rates that have been paid to outside psychiatrists?

   3   A.  I have knowledge of individuals who have been involved and

   4   have some understanding of what their hourly rate is.

   5   Q.  Would an hourly rate of $650 be accurate as to one

   6   particular board certified psychiatrist named Park Dietz?

   7   A.  Near that.  My recollection is 600 an hour.

   8   Q.  Does the Bureau of Prisons have psychiatrists who

   9   regularly consult on staff?

  10   A.  Yes, they do.

  11   Q.  I know you told us earlier about the number of

  12   psychologists who work for the Bureau of Prisons, and that was

  13   how many?

  14   A.  Three hundred fifty, approximately.

  15   Q.  Mr. Fitzgerald asked you a couple of times about

  16   information you had gotten over the Internet as a basis for

  17   some of your knowledge.  The information you have gathered

  18   over the Internet, are you referring to the United States

  19   Bureau of Prisons Web site, which is a repository for their

  20   official program statements, regulations, manuals and other

  21   documents?

  22   A.  That is correct.  The information that I have that came

  23   off the Internet was those policy statements, for those policy

  24   statements, and also the most up-to-date population figures

  25   for the facilities.  The descriptions of the violence rates,


   1   of the diagrams and photographs of ADX Florence, those have

   2   been made available to me in this and other capital cases and

   3   are regarded as being somewhat sensitive.

   4   Q.  You were asked about Sheik Abdel Rahman, Ramzi Yousef and

   5   other individuals.  Do you understand them to be heroes and

   6   almost martyrs in the Arab world?

   7   A.  That is my understanding.

   8   Q.  And leaders of global conspiracies?

   9   A.  Yes, sir.

  10            (Continued on next page)

















   1   Q.  Are you aware that a United States Attorney very familiar

   2   with the facts and circumstances of this case has --

   3            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, your Honor.  May we

   4   approach for one second?

   5            THE COURT:  Yes.  Excuse me.

   6            (At the sidebar)

   7            THE COURT:  What is the rest of that question?

   8            MR. RUHNKE:  That a United States Attorney familiar

   9   with the facts of this case and the roles of the actors in the

  10   case has described Khalfan Khamis Mohamed as a low ranking

  11   member of this overarching conspiracy who did low-level work.

  12   There is a stipulation to that effect, your Honor.

  13            THE COURT:  What has that got to do with this

  14   witness?  I would have sustained an objection to the last two

  15   questions about the role of these people in the Arab world.

  16            MR. RUHNKE:  The suggestion was made that the Arab

  17   world, that people are listening to the people present in ADX

  18   Florence in the Arab world.  Our client is hardly Ramzi Yousef

  19   or Sheik Abdel Rahman, your Honor.  The government has

  20   conceded that.  I think it is fair in this context while the

  21   witness is here --

  22            THE COURT:  What is the question -- how about do you

  23   know whether K.K. Mohamed is similarly regarded, rather than

  24   bringing in the U.S. Attorney?

  25            MR. RUHNKE:  There is a stipulation that is going to


   1   be read into evidence to exactly those words.

   2            THE COURT:  You can read the stipulation but you

   3   can't put it in a question to this witness.

   4            MR. FITZGERALD:  I have a continuing objection to

   5   going way beyond whatever competence this witness has.

   6            THE COURT:  I think that is right.  That is why I

   7   made the comment with respect to the last question and answer.

   8            MR. FITZGERALD:  I think if Mr. Ruhnke is going to

   9   read --

  10            MR. RUHNKE:  Not now.

  11            (Continued on next page)
















   1            (In open court)

   2   BY MR. RUHNKE:

   3   Q.  Do you know of your own knowledge, Dr. Cunningham, whether

   4   Khalfan Mohamed is regarded the same way that Sheik Abdel

   5   Rahman is regarded, or Ramzi Yousef?

   6   A.  I would not expect so.

   7   Q.  In this case was your level of inquiry, area of inquiry

   8   limited to really one particular area of expertise that you

   9   possess?

  10   A.  Yes, sir.

  11   Q.  Were you asked simply to say whether or not based on your

  12   knowledge and research the Bureau of Prisons, once it

  13   identifies an inmate as a dangerous person, can exercise and

  14   has numerous options to control and minimize the risk of

  15   danger presented by that person?

  16   A.  That is correct.

  17            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, leading.

  18            THE COURT:  No, I will allow it.

  19   Q.  The video we saw of the very vicious assault going on

  20   among the inmates, do you know anything at all about the

  21   genesis of that assault, what that was all about?

  22   A.  That specific assault I don't.  I would have to go back

  23   and review the chart.  Many of these are related to gang

  24   rivalries that exist, as there is a significant gang and

  25   disruptive group population at ADX.


   1   Q.  You used the term disruptive group.  Is that your term?

   2   A.  The Bureau of Prisons describes disruptive groups and

   3   security threat groups and gang members.  There are various

   4   ways of describing groups of individuals that would disrupt

   5   the order and security of the institution.

   6   Q.  Do you know the names of some of the gangs and disruptive

   7   groups that inhabit the Bureau of Prisons system?

   8            THE COURT:  Is this really pertinent?

   9            MR. RUHNKE:  All right, your Honor, I will move on.

  10   Q.  Mr. Fitzgerald asked you a number of questions about

  11   whether you had ever rendered an opinion about future

  12   dangerousness of a particular inmate that you had examined for

  13   that purpose.  Do you recall those kinds of statements?

  14   A.  Yes, sir.

  15   Q.  Have you examined inmates in connection with what is known

  16   as competency to be executed?

  17   A.  Yes, I have.

  18   Q.  Tell the jury what competency to be executed means.

  19            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection.  Relevance, scope.

  20            THE COURT:  Sustained.

  21            MR. RUHNKE:  Your Honor, that's --

  22            THE COURT:  Sustained.

  23   Q.  Have you ever rendered an opinion adverse to a defendant

  24   that you have been asked to examine that has led to a

  25   defendant's execution?


   1            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection.  Same objection.

   2            THE COURT:  I will allow it.

   3   A.  Yes, I have.

   4   Q.  In what context was that tape?

   5            MR. FITZGERALD:  Same objection.

   6            THE COURT:  Sustained.

   7   Q.  When someone hires you or retains you to do an evaluation

   8   or present the results of your research and studies to a jury

   9   or in any other context, what do they get?

  10   A.  They get my best analysis of the data.

  11            (Continued on next page)
















   1            MR. RUHNKE:  Thank you.  No more questions.

   2            THE COURT:  Anything further?

   3            MR. FITZGERALD:  No, Judge.

   4            THE COURT:  Thank you.

   5            (Witness excused)

   6            THE COURT:  Mr. Ruhnke, you may call your next

   7   witness.

   8            MR. RUHNKE:  Your Honor, may we approach?  This would

   9   be a good time -- there is a stipulation I can read.

  10            THE COURT:  You have an application?

  11            MR. RUHNKE:  I would like to break now for the day.

  12   The next order of business is to play the first of the videos

  13   with respect to Bosnia.

  14            THE COURT:  We will play the first 25 minutes of it.

  15            (In open court)

  16            MR. RUHNKE:  Your Honor, the next order of business

  17   is to read a stipulation to the jury and then to play the

  18   beginning portion of the video regarding Bosnia.

  19            THE COURT:  Very well.

  20            MR. RUHNKE:  I will read the stipulation.  It is

  21   Defense Exhibit 7.  It is hereby stipulated and agreed by and

  22   between the United States of attorney by Mary Jo White, United

  23   States Attorney for the Southern District of New York, Patrick

  24   Fitzgerald, Michael J. Garcia, of counsel, and the defendant

  25   Khalfan Khamis Mohamed, with the consent of his attorneys, as


   1   follows:

   2            On April 9, 2001, in connection with a proceeding in

   3   the separate prosecution of Mamdouh Ahmed Salim, for the

   4   assault on Officer Pepe, an assistant United States attorney

   5   who is knowledgeable about the facts and circumstances of this

   6   case described Khalfan Mohamed to another judge of this court

   7   as "a low-ranking member of this overarching conspiracy" who

   8   performed "low-level type work."

   9            It is further agreed that the stipulation may be read

  10   to the jury and received in evidence, and I offer the exhibit

  11   as Khalfan Mohamed stipulate 7.

  12            THE COURT:  Received.

  13            (Defense Exhibit KKM stip 7 received in evidence)

  14            MR. RUHNKE:  At this point we would like to play the

  15   first 20 minutes of a documentary series on Bosnia and Bosnia

  16   and Herzegovina produced by the Discovery Channel in 1995.  It

  17   is narrated by Christine Anapour, produced in 1995.  We will

  18   play parts of episode 4 and go on to episode 5 tomorrow.

  19            THE COURT:  Very well.

  20            MR. RUHNKE:  Your Honor, the video is marked KKMVT4A

  21   and I offer it in evidence.  I also offer 4B which is the next

  22   in the series.

  23            MR. FITZGERALD:  With no objection.

  24            THE COURT:  Received.

  25            (Defense Exhibit KKMVT4A and 4B received in evidence)


   1            (Videotape played)

   2            THE COURT:  Suppose we break it here.  We will resume

   3   tomorrow.  Have a pleasant evening.  We are adjourned until

   4   tomorrow.

   5            (Jury excused)

   6            THE COURT:  Mr. Ruhnke, do you have something?

   7            MR. RUHNKE:  I would like to see your Honor in the

   8   robing room with the government.

   9            THE COURT:  Otherwise we are adjourned until 9:30

  10   tomorrow.

  11            (Pages 8249-8251 sealed)

  12            (Proceedings adjourned until 9:00 a.m., Wednesday,

  13   June 27, 2001)















   2                        INDEX OF EXAMINATION

   3   Witness                    D      X      RD     RX

   4   JOSEPH REMENTER.........    8111

   5   MARK DOUGLAS CUNNINGHAM...  8118   8177    8235

   6                        GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS

   7   Exhibit No.                                     Received

   8    4316, 4030, and 4095 .......................8107

   9    4317 and 4304 ..............................8107

  10    4318 .......................................8109

  11    4314 .......................................8230

  12    4320 .......................................8234

  13    4319 .......................................8235

  14                         DEFENDANT EXHIBITS

  15   Exhibit No.                                     Received

  16    KKM stip 4 .................................8111

  17    KKM VT2 ....................................8116

  18    KKH10B .....................................8118

  19    KKM26 ......................................8130

  20    KKM23 ......................................8142

  21    KKM24 ......................................8144

  22    KKM19 ......................................8162

  23    KKM20 ......................................8162

  24    KKM21 ......................................8163

  25    KKM22 ......................................8163


   1    KKM15 ......................................8164

   2    KKM17 ......................................8165

   3    KKM stip 5 and KKMVT3 ......................8173

   4    KKM stip 7 .................................8247

   5    KKMVT4A and 4B .............................8247





















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