8 March 2006
Source: Digital transcript purchased from
Exemplaris.com. Files digitally signed
by reporter.
Other trial transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-zm-dt2.htm
Other case documents: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-zm-cd.htm
513
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA
ALEXANDRIA DIVISION
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, . Criminal No. 1:01cr455
.
vs. . Alexandria, Virginia
. March 8, 2006
ZACARIAS MOUSSAOUI, . 1:30 p.m.
a/k/a Shaqil, a/k/a .
Abu Khalid al Sahrawi, .
.
Defendant. .
.
. . . . . . . . . . .
TRANSCRIPT OF JURY TRIAL
BEFORE THE HONORABLE LEONIE M. BRINKEMA
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
VOLUME III-A
APPEARANCES:
FOR THE GOVERNMENT: ROBERT A. SPENCER, AUSA
DAVID J. NOVAK, AUSA
DAVID RASKIN, AUSA
United States Attorney's Office
2100 Jamieson Avenue
Alexandria, VA 22314
and
JOHN W. VAN LONKHUYZEN, ESQ.
U.S. Department of Justice
Counterterrorism Section
10th and Constitution Avenue, N.W.
Room 2736
Washington, D.C. 20530
FOR THE DEFENDANT: GERALD THOMAS ZERKIN
KENNETH P. TROCCOLI
ANNE M. CHAPMAN
Assistant Federal Public Defenders
Office of the Federal Public
Defender
1650 King Street
Alexandria, VA 22314
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION OF STENOGRAPHIC NOTES
514
1 APPEARANCES: (Cont'd.)
2 FOR THE DEFENDANT: EDWARD B. MAC MAHON, JR., ESQ.
P.O. Box 903
3 107 East Washington Street
Middleburg, VA 20118
4 and
ALAN H. YAMAMOTO, ESQ.
5 643 South Washington Street
Alexandria, VA 22314-3032
6
ALSO PRESENT: GERARD FRANCISCO
7
COURT REPORTERS: ANNELIESE J. THOMSON, RDR, CRR
8 U.S. District Court, Fifth Floor
401 Courthouse Square
9 Alexandria, VA 22314
(703)299-8595
10 and
KAREN BRYNTESON, FAPR, RMR, CRR
11 Brynteson Reporting, Inc.
2404 Belle Haven Meadows Court
12 Alexandria, VA 22306
(703)768-8122
13
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20
21
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25
515
1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
2 (Defendant and Jury in.)
3 THE COURT: The jurors have their notebooks, all set?
4 Very good.
5 We are working on a glossary of names and geographical
6 locations for you all. We recognize this is difficult, but we
7 want to make sure the spellings are accurate and we don't leave
8 anything out. We know about your interest in that, and we will
9 get it to you as quickly as possible.
10 We're going to continue with the cross-examination of
11 Mr. Bafana.
12 (Deposition of FAIZ ABU BAKER BAFANA cont'd. as
13 follows:)
14 (Video resumed.)
15 A. We followed those people. They also never, never produced
16 any passports, so we just followed them.
17 Q. So you were just following people, other people? You were
18 not the one who was the guide?
19 A. No.
20 Q. So you don't know how they did this?
21 A. Again?
22 Q. You do not know how they make you cross the border?
23 MR. KARAS: Objection, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: We're way far afield now. I'll sustain the
25 objection. Let's move on to something else.
516
1 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
2 Q. So now you are in Quetta. How did you travel from Quetta to,
3 to Karachi?
4 A. By bus.
5 Q. By bus. How long it took you?
6 A. Twelve hours.
7 Q. Twelve hours.
8 And then after, when you arrived in Karachi, where did
9 you go?
10 A. We went back to the house belong to PAS members.
11 Q. And how long did you stay in Karachi?
12 A. Maybe four days.
13 Q. Then after, you went to Malaysia?
14 A. During that visit, we did went to some other places. Then
15 after that, we went back to Malaysia.
16 Q. Which other places did you go?
17 A. We went to Kashmir.
18 Q. So you went to Karachi, and then how did you go to Kashmir?
19 A. We took a train to Lahore and then to Islamabad. After that,
20 we, we hire a four-wheel drive up to Kashmir.
21 Q. Were you alone?
22 A. With Hambali.
23 Q. And you undertook this trip to Kashmir by yourself? Were you
24 with any Pakistani?
25 A. With Hambali.
517
1 Q. Sorry?
2 A. Yes. Yes, with some Pakistani.
3 Q. What was your purpose to go to Kashmir?
4 A. I really wanted to see their training facility.
5 Q. Do you mean -- can you explain what kind of facility you are
6 talking about?
7 MR. KARAS: Objection. Relevance, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: We're way beyond what was raised on direct.
9 I'm sustaining the objection. You need to keep this focused,
10 Mr. Moussaoui. This is not a discovery --
11 MR. MOUSSAOUI: He have answered it by himself.
12 THE COURT: No. This is not a discovery deposition.
13 This is a deposition of testimony that may be used at trial, so it
14 has to be relevant.
15 MR. MOUSSAOUI: He have answered it by himself.
16 THE COURT: I have sustained the objection. You need to
17 move on.
18 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
19 Q. So when did you come back from your trip in Kashmir? How
20 long it took you, all this?
21 A. The total, I mean, from the day I arrived the first time to
22 Kandahar, then to Karachi, and to --
23 Q. No, only the Kashmir expedition.
24 A. Kashmir, about two days in Kashmir. Then we came down.
25 Q. And then what did you do when you came back from Kashmir?
518
1 A. Came back, we went to Islamabad. Then the next day, we took
2 a flight to Karachi, and the next day, we took a flight back to
3 Kuala Lumpur.
4 Q. So now you have said that you have a third trip to
5 Afghanistan; is this correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So before, can you tell us what was the purpose of this trip,
8 third trip to Afghanistan?
9 A. First is to, to carry out this Hambali instruction to send
10 the videotapes to Afghanistan and also two other Malaysian for
11 military training.
12 Q. So you went and you met Sheikh Abu Hafs in Allagrante
13 (phonetic) Paradise; is it correct?
14 A. Can you repeat, please?
15 Q. You met Sheikh Abu Hafs on the third trip?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Where did you meet him?
18 A. In the guest house.
19 Q. In which town?
20 A. In Kandahar. In Kandahar.
21 Q. Can you describe to me Sheikh Abu Hafs?
22 A. He's a thin guy, Arab-look, with a full beard, and maybe
23 about 50-years-old man, and at the time, the beard was orange
24 color.
25 Q. Is it -- he is taller or shorter than you?
519
1 A. Taller than me.
2 Q. Very or little?
3 A. Quite tall.
4 Q. Did you shake hand with Sheikh Abu Hafs?
5 A. I can't remember, but it's normal to shake hand.
6 Q. So it's normal to shake hand with a Muslim?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Did you recall anything particular with Sheikh Abu Hafs?
9 MR. KARAS: Objection, Your Honor, as to form.
10 MR. MOUSSAOUI: It is relevant. Sheikh Abu Hafs has a
11 distinct thing --
12 THE COURT: Wait, wait, wait, wait.
13 MR. MOUSSAOUI: -- that anybody can recall inside the
14 American file.
15 I read it in the, in the embassy trial, okay? He have a
16 distinct characteristic, Sheikh Abu Hafs. So somebody who have
17 met Sheikh Abu Hafs, who have shake hand with Sheikh Abu Hafs
18 would have known, because it's striking. It's like if somebody
19 come inside the room now, he'd miss a leg, everybody would know
20 it.
21 THE COURT: I'm going to allow the question only because
22 again it's going to test the credibility of the witness. You may
23 ask the question again.
24 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
25 Q. So I'm saying when you met Sheikh Abu Hafs and you shook
520
1 hands --
2 THE COURT: No, the witness did not say he shook hands.
3 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Okay.
4 Q. So when you met Sheikh Abu Hafs, did you notice something
5 very particular with Sheikh Abu Hafs?
6 A. As I've described to you.
7 Q. You didn't notice that he have a disability in the hand, in
8 the right hand?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You didn't notice that he can't shake hand because his, his
11 finger are parted?
12 A. I didn't notice that.
13 Q. So what was the content of the discussion with Sheikh Abu
14 Hafs?
15 A. Everything is about this U.S. military personnel in the, the
16 video I showed to him, the U.S. military personnel in Singapore.
17 And after that, he told me about this -- that he need more
18 information about it.
19 And here let me tell you that he spoke through an
20 interpreter, because, of course, I spoke to him in English. So he
21 spoke through an interpreter. So that's where the interpreter had
22 told me that he has requirement of to have more information on
23 U.S. military in Singapore and also those things like his
24 requirement on -- to attack this U.S. warship, that they need men,
25 transport, explosive, and money.
521
1 Q. You say that you spoke with Sheikh Abu Hafs with an
2 interpreter; is it correct?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. You didn't speak with him in English?
5 A. I spoke to him in English, but his -- he through an
6 interpreter.
7 Q. So you are saying that Sheikh Abu Hafs doesn't speak English?
8 MR. KARAS: Objection, Your Honor.
9 THE COURT: That's not what he said. I'll sustain the
10 objection. You can rephrase the question if you want.
11 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
12 Q. It is your belief that Sheikh Abu Hafs doesn't speak English?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. So your -- what was your exact position inside the Jemaah
15 Islamiyah?
16 A. My position?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. The treasurer of Mantiqi 1. The treasurer of Mantiqi 1.
19 Q. Okay. And you say that you were not like a leader. That's
20 at the beginning you said this, correct?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. And you have -- you are treasurer; that's correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you are been charged -- you have been entrusted with all
25 the military knowledge of Hambali activity; that's correct?
522
1 MR. KARAS: Objection to the form of the question, Your
2 Honor.
3 THE COURT: Sustained. That's too broad a question.
4 BY MR. MOUSSOUI:
5 Q. You have been entrusted at different points with very precise
6 military knowledge of military activity of Hambali and the group
7 of Sheikh Usama Bin Laden; is it correct?
8 MR. KARAS: Same objection, Your Honor.
9 THE COURT: Same ruling. You need to be specific. Do
10 you mean the videotape? What do you mean? You can ask a leading
11 question.
12 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
13 Q. So Hambali have sent you on a mission to meet with the
14 highest commander of the mujahideen, Sheikh Abu Hafs, to, to
15 discuss military objective; is it correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you are a treasurer?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you never have participate directly into combat?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you -- are you aware of the way Hambali used to run his
22 organization?
23 A. Can you repeat, please?
24 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Do you have the name of the exhibit?
25 THE COURT: Mr. Novak?
523
1 MR. NOVAK: May I approach the mic?
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 MR. NOVAK: Mr. Moussaoui has turned to me and asked me
4 for a number for a chart that was tendered to him in discovery.
5 There is -- there's no exhibit number. He can mark it his own
6 exhibit number.
7 THE COURT: Do you want it marked as Defense Exhibit 1
8 for this deposition?
9 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Yes, please do.
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 MR. NOVAK: May I, may I describe it for the record,
12 Judge?
13 THE COURT: Yeah.
14 MR. MOUSSAOUI: I will do it.
15 Q. So --
16 MR. NOVAK: May I just say one thing?
17 THE COURT: Yeah.
18 MR. NOVAK: The technological agent has indicated he
19 could put it on the video screen if Mr. Moussaoui would like. He
20 just has to indicate it to us.
21 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Okay. It's about --
22 THE COURT: Well, the witness has to be able to look at
23 the exhibit if you're going to question him about it, and so
24 you're going to need to -- let's put it on the screen for a moment
25 so at least the witness and maybe Mr. Karas has a copy of it --
524
1 Mr. Karas, do you have all the paperwork connected to this
2 witness?
3 MR. KARAS: I do, Your Honor. I believe we have the
4 document that Mr. Moussaoui was referring to.
5 THE COURT: All right. It's being --
6 MR. KARAS: Yes, we do have that.
7 THE COURT: It's being broadcast to you-all now. Can
8 you see it?
9 MR. KARAS: Yes, I can, Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Do you have a copy of it there?
11 MR. KARAS: We do.
12 THE COURT: All right, why don't you put a hard copy in
13 front of the witness. We're marking this as a Defense Exhibit No.
14 1 for the purposes of this witness's testimony, all right?
15 MR. KARAS: Yes, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: I assume there's no objection to it, is
17 there?
18 MR. KARAS: There is no objection.
19 THE COURT: All right. So Defense Exhibit 1.
20 Do you want it moved into evidence, Mr. Moussaoui, at
21 this point?
22 MR. MOUSSAOUI: No, no. I'm not -- not in evidence,
23 THE COURT: You do not?
24 MR. MOUSSAOUI: -- just this report, no.
25 THE COURT: All right. Well, it's not in evidence then,
525
1 but you're going to question the witness about it?
2 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Yes.
3 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.
4 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
5 Q. So in this chart, you, you show quite a very precise
6 knowledge of the structure of the Jemaah Islamiyah and the Muklas,
7 Hambali; is it correct?
8 A. Can you repeat, please?
9 Q. In this chart, you are demonstrating quite a precise
10 knowledge of the organization of Hambali?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Are you aware of the organization called a cell?
13 A. An organization named cell?
14 Q. So to explain to you, are you aware how, let's say,
15 mujahideen organization runs themselves?
16 A. I can't understand the question.
17 Q. Where I want to go is how did you acquire this precise
18 knowledge of the, all of the organization of Hambali?
19 MR. KARAS: Objection, Your Honor. It's argumentative.
20 THE COURT: Well, I think the question is simply he's
21 asking how the witness -- first of all, is this document something
22 that you wrote?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 THE COURT: All right. How -- what's the basis for your
25 information in that document? In other words, how do you -- how,
526
1 how were you able to write it? On what basis?
2 THE WITNESS: I was in the mantiqi. Normally, all these
3 matters were discussed during mantiqi meetings.
4 THE COURT: All right.
5 THE WITNESS: So like the, the structure, the
6 appointment of the personnel all were discussed in the mantiqis.
7 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
8 Q. Isn't it the case that you took what you call a bayat?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Isn't it the case that you are under oath with this bayat not
11 to reveal any information you have about your organization?
12 A. The bayat says to obey and -- to listen and to obey the Quran
13 and the Sunna according to your capacity.
14 Q. So is not the case that you received some military
15 intelligence training?
16 A. Military training or intelligence training?
17 Q. Both of them.
18 A. Military training, yes.
19 Q. So you are saying that you never received any intelligence,
20 any informa- -- instruction to keep your activities secret?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So you did?
23 A. We were informed to -- we were informed that our activities
24 had to remain secret.
25 Q. Can you repeat, please?
527
1 A. We were informed that our activities had to remain secret.
2 Q. Um-hum. So that's what you took bayat for?
3 A. Again, I said bayat is -- can I say in Arabic?
4 Q. (Arabic spoken)
5 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, objection. We can't do this in
6 Arabic.
7 THE COURT: Yes, we're not going to do it in Arabic.
8 Anything in Arabic is stricken from this record.
9 THE WITNESS: So in English it would be to listen and to
10 obey the leader in accordance to the Quran and to the Prophet
11 tradition according to one's capacity.
12 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
13 Q. So can you explain to me why as a treasurer you got to know
14 all this detailed military information?
15 MR. KARAS: Objection. Competence, Your Honor.
16 MR. MOUSSAOUI: So just --
17 THE COURT: Well, he can simply -- my understanding is
18 he's already said he was at meetings where all these matters were
19 being discussed. That -- he's given you the explanation. So I
20 think it's repetitive, and I'm going to sustain the objection for
21 that reason.
22 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
23 Q. So at some point in time, you said that you receive two
24 Arabs, is it correct, coming from somewhere?
25 A. Yes.
528
1 Q. Do you recall the name of these Arab?
2 A. What time was it?
3 Q. It was something around 1999.
4 A. In Kuala Lumpur, 1999?
5 Q. Probably.
6 A. I don't know that.
7 Q. So you never, you never remember in the past that you receive
8 two Arab in Malaysia?
9 A. In 1999?
10 Q. Sometime in the past.
11 A. Yes, I remember.
12 Q. But where -- which year was it?
13 A. In 2001.
14 Q. And, and what was the discussion you have with these people?
15 A. About the Singapore -- planned attack on Singapore U.S.
16 military installation.
17 Q. So you meet some people for the first time, and you discuss
18 possible military action with them; is it correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How long did you met them?
21 A. A few months.
22 Q. So you live with these people a few months?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You were living in the same apartment?
25 A. No.
529
1 Q. Can you tell us how did you organize this?
2 A. Again?
3 Q. Can you tell us how did you organize this?
4 A. Either we go to their apartments to discuss things where they
5 stay, I mean, the place where they stayed, to discuss all this
6 operation.
7 Q. What was your role with this operation?
8 A. Depends. Sometime is to collect more information on the U.S.
9 military installation in Singapore and, of course, sometime to, to
10 find out more details on the, on the attack, on the planned
11 attack.
12 Q. What was the target of the attack?
13 A. The U.S. warship in Singapore.
14 Q. So you traveled with these two Arabs to Singapore?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did these two Arabs still live in Singapore?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Where are they, these two Arabs?
19 A. Now or previously?
20 Q. Now and previously.
21 A. They were staying in Kuala Lumpur.
22 Q. And where did you -- they go?
23 A. They went back to Afghanistan.
24 Q. How do you know that?
25 A. I was informed by Hambali.
530
1 Q. When did he inform you of this?
2 A. December 2001.
3 THE COURT: All right, it's been an hour, and we have to
4 make these breaks so that the system can be re-synchronized.
5 We'll take a ten-minute recess and reconvene at 20 after ten our
6 time.
7 (Recess) (Tape resumed).
8 THE COURT: All right, go on, Mr. Moussaoui.
9 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
10 Q. (Arabic spoken.)
11 A. (Arabic spoken.)
12 Q. So when you were in Malaysia, what was exactly your activity
13 with Hambali?
14 MR. KARAS: Can we get a time frame on that?
15 THE COURT: Yes. What time period?
16 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Around 2000.
17 THE WITNESS: My activities, since I'm in the mantiqi,
18 so most of the meetings with Hambali, I've attended the meeting
19 with Hambali. In 2000, there was discussion on attack on churches
20 in Indonesia. In 2000, we discussed the -- his intention of
21 attacking those churches with me, and also, we went to Manila in,
22 in late 2000.
23 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
24 Q. So you're saying that as a treasurer, you were also in charge
25 of planning military attack in Indonesia?
531
1 A. We were called to attend the meetings.
2 Q. Sorry?
3 A. We were called to attend the meetings.
4 Q. And who took part at these meeting?
5 A. In some of the meetings, myself, Zulkipli Marzooki, Muklas,
6 Nurdin, and Hambali. Maybe there are a few others which I can't
7 remember.
8 Q. And you say at some point that you were also in charge of
9 receiving people from abroad?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So you were in charge of treasury and also from guests; is it
12 correct?
13 A. Yes. By the request of Hambali or Zulkipli Marzooki, I
14 assisted to those guests who arrived in Malaysia.
15 Q. So, so how many guests did you receive in -- from 2000 until
16 the, the time you got arrested?
17 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, you're using the earphone?
18 THE WITNESS: Who got arrested?
19 THE COURT: Just a second, sir.
20 I'm told you need to have the earphones in front in
21 order for them to work. Is that --
22 MR. MOUSSAOUI: They are working.
23 THE COURT: They're not working?
24 MR. MOUSSAOUI: No, they are working.
25 THE COURT: They are working?
532
1 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Yeah, they are working.
2 THE COURT: Mr. Star, is your system different from
3 ours? Is that what we're using?
4 MR. YOUNG: He's not talking. He's just listening.
5 THE COURT: So he's not using the infrared system in the
6 courtroom; is that correct?
7 MR. YOUNG: Yes, he is.
8 MR. MOUSSAOUI: They are working.
9 THE COURT: But they're working. All right, well,
10 they're working.
11 I'm sorry, go ahead and ask that question again,
12 Mr. Moussaoui. Do you remember what it was?
13 MR. MOUSSAOUI: No -- oh, yes.
14 Q. From 2000 until the time of your arrest, how many people did
15 you receive in Malaysia?
16 A. From five to six.
17 Q. Do you remember the nationality of these people?
18 A. Some, yes.
19 Q. Can you tell, tell us which nationality? Were they Arab?
20 non-Arab? German? Japanese?
21 A. I remember two of them. One, a Canadian was holding a
22 Canadian passport, and the other was using a Saudi passport.
23 Q. How did you know that he had a Saudi passport?
24 A. They informed me.
25 Q. So, so people you met regularly tell you that here I am; I
533
1 have a Saudi passport?
2 A. Not regular.
3 Q. So what was the reason you got to know that he had a Saudi
4 passport?
5 A. They wanted to go to Manila, so I asked them, "What passport
6 are you using?," whether there, there's a requirement for visa or
7 not. So they explained for me that one of them is using Canadian
8 passport and the other is Saudi passport.
9 Q. So you were in charge of the traveling, traveling
10 arrangement?
11 A. As per request.
12 Q. Sorry?
13 A. As per request.
14 Q. So you have the two people, one Saudi, one Canadian. What
15 about the four other?
16 A. I don't know their, they are holding what passport.
17 Q. Do you remember which nationality they were by their physical
18 appearance or by the language they speak?
19 A. They looked Arabic.
20 Q. So all the people you receive were Arabic people?
21 A. From their look, yes.
22 Q. Do you remember receiving somebody with a passport name of
23 Haleed al-Minghar?
24 THE COURT: Would you spell --
25 THE WITNESS: Again?
534
1 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, spell the name, please.
2 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Haleed, Haleed al-Minghar, M --
3 M-i-n-g-h-a-r, al-Minghar.
4 THE WITNESS: No.
5 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
6 Q. Did you ever hear of this name?
7 A. When?
8 Q. Did you ever hear in your life this name, Haleed al-Minghar?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you tell us in which circumstance you heard this name?
11 A. I was shown his photograph during my detention in ISD, and
12 his name -- and the name was there, and I confirmed that he's
13 Bandar that I normally called him.
14 Q. You said that you confirmed that he's Minghar?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So if you confirmed that, you have knowledge of this person;
17 is it correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When did you meet this person?
20 A. 2000 and 2001.
21 Q. Was he alone?
22 A. Again?
23 Q. Was al-Minghar alone when you meet him?
24 A. The first time, he was alone, and then later he was with
25 someone else. The second time he came, he was again alone.
535
1 Q. You say he was with some other people. How many people?
2 one? two? three? four?
3 A. One.
4 Q. One.
5 What name he was know as, the second person?
6 A. I don't know. I don't know.
7 Q. Do you know the name of this person?
8 A. No.
9 Q. So in which circumstance you met, you met Haleed al-Minghar?
10 A. On planned attack on Singapore warship in year 2000.
11 Q. Do you know what happened to Haleed al-Minghar?
12 A. He went back to Afghanistan.
13 Q. You believe he -- you say he went back to Afghanistan?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How do you know that?
16 A. I was informed by Hambali.
17 Q. So now we're in 2002, and you still believe that he is in
18 Afghanistan?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You've never been informed that he's suspected to have become
21 a martyr in the operation 9/11?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You've never been informed that he's supposed to have been on
24 one of the plane who crash in the World Trade Center?
25 A. No. I could have mistaken the name that you mentioned,
536
1 Haleed al-Minghar. Maybe it's not Haleed al-Minghar. Khalid, I
2 don't know the, the second name. Unless you can show me the
3 photographs again, then maybe I can identify the person, but it
4 is Bandar.
5 Q. You say that -- you said previously that you have been -- you
6 saw, you saw some photographs, and you identified yourself Haleed
7 al-Minghar, and you confirmed his name. Is it correct that's what
8 you said?
9 A. It could be a mistake, because I say Khalid. I thought it
10 was Khalid. I do not know worry about his surname.
11 Q. Are you sure of what you're saying just now?
12 A. I'm sure now that it could be a mistake. It's not Haleed
13 al-Minghar. It could be Khalid something, not al-Minghar.
14 Q. So now you are sure that you never met Haleed al-Minghar?
15 A. Could be different person.
16 Q. Can you repeat, please?
17 A. Could be a different person.
18 Q. Is it your -- the person you identified as Haleed al-Minghar,
19 you -- is the person that you have planned operation against
20 Singapore, military -- a U.S. military installation in Singapore,
21 correct?
22 A. I call him Bandar, and later on I identify a person which has
23 his look, and the name there was Khalid, so he could be different
24 person. Unless you can show me the photograph of Haleed
25 al-Minghar, and maybe I can identify whether he is the one that I
537
1 was referring.
2 Q. So this person, Haleed al-Minghar, you met in, in Malaysia,
3 you receive him in where, in your house?
4 A. Haleed al-Minghar, I do not know.
5 Q. The person you identified before as Haleed al-Minghar, did
6 you receive him in your apartment?
7 A. The person that I identify that is Bandar, we arranged for
8 his accommodation.
9 Q. Can you repeat, please?
10 A. The person that I identify, which I call him Bandar, we
11 arranged for his accommodation in Kuala Lumpur.
12 Q. Where did he stay?
13 A. The first time, he stayed in Yazid's apartment.
14 Q. You say he stayed in Yazid's apartment?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Yazid Sufaat?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So you and Yazid Sufaat, you, according to you, have
19 entertained Haleed al-Minghar; it is correct?
20 A. Entertained Haleed al-Minghar?
21 Q. I mean, entertain in that you receive him and you bring him
22 to your apartment and you give him food, entertain?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you are planning operation against the United States?
25 A. United States military installation in Singapore.
538
1 Q. Yeah, the United States in Singapore, the United States, is
2 it correct?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. So -- and you have been doing this for -- since 2000, when
5 you met with Haleed al-Minghar; is it correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So now if I understand the, the term of your agreement,
8 the -- with the government, you have -- as long as you testify for
9 the U.S. government, they will not prosecute you? They will not
10 use your testimony against you in a prosecution against you; is it
11 correct?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Can you explain, what do you, what do you mean by "no"?
14 A. I was not informed that this testimony will be used against
15 me or will not be used against me. I was not told that.
16 Q. I see. Are you -- can you make an effort to recollect?
17 Because I read a document where the government of the -- the
18 United States government saying that anything in this testimony
19 will not be used against you, and that's an agreement that you
20 have with them, as long as it is truthful according to the United
21 States.
22 A. That I do not know.
23 Q. I mean that are you entering into agreement with the United
24 States and you don't recollect, you don't remember, or you don't
25 know?
539
1 A. I'm not entering into any agreement with the United States
2 yet.
3 Q. I received yesterday a copy of it.
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. I mean, that's extremely strange.
6 MR. KARAS: Objection to the comment "strange," Your
7 Honor.
8 THE COURT: Sustained. That will be stricken from the
9 record.
10 Do you have a question, Mr. Moussaoui?
11 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Yes, yes. I think the witness is being
12 less truthful, because --
13 THE COURT: No, no, that's a statement. Do you have a
14 question for the witness?
15 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Yes, I have a question.
16 Q. How can you -- how can't you remember the agreement you have
17 entered with the United States saying that whatever you say in
18 this testimony will not be used against you in a possible
19 prosecution against you? How can you not remember? I have it, I
20 have, I have it in front of me.
21 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, objection. Assumes a fact not
22 in evidence.
23 THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the objection, but I
24 think the, the question, Mr. Bafana, is did you sign an agreement
25 with the United States concerning your testimony?
540
1 THE WITNESS: No.
2 THE COURT: Have you signed any agreement with the
3 United States?
4 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, that, that didn't come through.
5 THE COURT: Mr. Bafana, have you signed a document
6 called a proffer agreement?
7 THE WITNESS: For this testimony?
8 THE COURT: For testimony. Did you sign an agreement on
9 May 15, 2002, called a proffer agreement?
10 THE WITNESS: I understand that -- what I signed.
11 THE COURT: The question is did you sign such an
12 agreement? The answer is yes or no.
13 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, you, you broke up a little bit
14 there.
15 THE COURT: The question is did you sign a proffer
16 agreement on May 15, 2002? The answer can only be either yes or
17 no. Did you sign such an agreement?
18 THE WITNESS: No.
19 MR. MOUSSAOUI: I think --
20 THE COURT: Mr. Karas?
21 MR. KARAS: Yes, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Do you have your whole file there?
23 MR. KARAS: Yes, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: All right. This is certainly relevant to
25 credibility issues.
541
1 Mr. Moussaoui --
2 MR. KARAS: Yes.
3 THE COURT: -- do you want the document shown to the
4 witness?
5 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Yes, I want.
6 THE COURT: All right. Could you please show the
7 witness the proffer agreement I'm referring to?
8 MR. KARAS: Yes, Your Honor. I'm showing the witness
9 the agreement. For the record, it's a three-page document. I'm
10 showing the witness right now.
11 THE COURT: Mr. Bafana, have you seen that document
12 before?
13 THE WITNESS: The proffer agreement.
14 THE COURT: Yes. Have you seen that before?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.
16 THE COURT: All right, turn to page 2. Turn to the next
17 page. Does your signature appear anywhere on that page?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 THE COURT: All right. That's what we've been talking
20 about.
21 Go ahead, Mr. Moussaoui.
22 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
23 Q. So you did enter into an agreement with the United States; is
24 it correct?
25 A. As per this agreement, yes.
542
1 Q. Can you tell us what is the nature of this agreement?
2 THE COURT: Well, it speaks for itself, Mr. Moussaoui.
3 We're not going to spend -- the document --
4 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Is it true that he know about this at
5 all?
6 THE COURT: The document speaks for itself. You don't
7 have a whole lot of time. Use it wisely.
8 MR. MOUSSAOUI: I think it's very relevant to see that
9 this witness doesn't know what he's saying at the moment. He is
10 not aware --
11 THE COURT: Ask a specific --
12 MR. MOUSSAOUI: -- of the most crucial --
13 THE COURT: Ask a specific question. But this is a
14 complex document, and we're not going to spend a whole lot of time
15 on it. It speaks for itself. It says what it says.
16 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
17 Q. Have you entered -- are you under, under the understanding
18 that you should testify against me in order to spare you any
19 prosecution from the United States?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Are you under -- do you believe that if you, if you
22 participate in this prosecution, you will -- against me and make
23 any allegation against any other Islamic group, this will reduce
24 the likelihood of a prosecution of the -- from the United States?
25 MR. KARAS: Objection to "participate in prosecution,"
543
1 Your Honor.
2 THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection to the form of
3 the question.
4 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
5 Q. So collaboration or whatever.
6 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, rephrase the question.
7 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
8 Q. So do you believe that your collaboration in my prosecution
9 and the different allegation against other Islamic people will
10 reduce the likelihood of having you being prosecuted by the United
11 States?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So what was the purpose of signing this agreement?
14 A. As I told you earlier, that I was informed to give full
15 cooperation, and also, I believe that this action of killing
16 civilian is against Islam. So I wanted to help to stop this kind
17 of action. So by giving cooperation, I hope that in their
18 investigation, they can stop any further killing.
19 Q. So you --
20 A. That was my basis of giving this full cooperation.
21 Do you believe in killing civilian life now?
22 Q. So you have been ordered by the Internal Security Service to
23 give collaboration to the United States?
24 MR. KARAS: Objection. Asked and answered.
25 THE COURT: Sustained. That's -- we've been over that
544
1 before, Mr. Moussaoui. Use your time to get into new territory.
2 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
3 Q. What was exact reason, the instruction you received from the
4 Internal Security of Singapore?
5 MR. KARAS: Objection. Asked and answered.
6 THE COURT: I'm going to sustain that objection as well.
7 You've been into that before. Let's move on.
8 MR. MOUSSAOUI: I'm being prevented to establish that
9 this witness is being coerced.
10 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, just ask your questions. You
11 have limited time to finish this examination, and we're going to
12 have time left for standby counsel to do it as well.
13 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
14 Q. So when -- during your planning activity against the United
15 States, how many people you work with?
16 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, can we specify which activity
17 against the United States?
18 THE COURT: Yes. Specify.
19 MR. MOUSSAOUI: The planned bombing about Singapore.
20 MR. KARAS: Can we specify which plan involving
21 Singapore?
22 MR. MOUSSAOUI: The one the witness refer to.
23 THE COURT: Well, no, no, no. How many plans -- did you
24 have more than one plan to bomb an American installation in
25 Singapore?
545
1 THE WITNESS: In form, yes.
2 THE COURT: All right. How many different plans were
3 there?
4 THE WITNESS: At least two.
5 THE COURT: All right. Take them one at a time. What
6 was the -- what's the time frame for the first plan? When was
7 that being discussed?
8 THE WITNESS: From 2000 to 2001.
9 THE COURT: All right.
10 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
11 Q. And you discussed this plan with whom?
12 A. The, the Arabs and some JI members.
13 Q. How many Arabs?
14 A. Altogether on those plans, four.
15 Q. Four. But Haleed al-Minghar wasn't one of them?
16 A. I do not know except a person called Bandar.
17 Q. You don't know if Haleed al-Minghar was the person you said
18 before that you received and you planned with him to bomb a naval
19 base of the United States in Singapore? Now you don't remember.
20 MR. KARAS: Objection. Asked and answered.
21 THE COURT: No, he's probing the credibility and the
22 memory of the witness. I'm going to permit that. Overruled.
23 You can answer that question.
24 THE WITNESS: I could have mistaken Haleed al-Minghar
25 with Bandar.
546
1 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
2 Q. So now you deny knowing Haleed al-Minghar altogether?
3 A. Unless you can show me the photograph of Haleed al-Minghar.
4 Then maybe I can identify whether he's the person I'm referring to
5 as Bandar.
6 Q. That's not my question. I'm asking you now with the state of
7 affair, are you denying Haleed -- knowing Haleed al-Minghar?
8 THE COURT: He can't answer the question without seeing
9 the photograph, so this is going nowhere, Mr. Moussaoui. Move on
10 to something else.
11 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
12 Q. So you, you said that you have met somebody with the name of
13 John; is it correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you know -- can you -- how do you identify this person,
16 John?
17 A. He looks exactly like you.
18 Q. You are saying that "look exactly like you." You are
19 referring to me?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So when you say "look," are you certain if it's me or is
22 somebody who look like me?
23 A. Certain.
24 Q. Are you certain like you were certain about Haleed
25 al-Minghar, or are you more certain?
547
1 A. Not certain.
2 Q. So you're not certain. Do you know that maybe somebody look
3 exactly like me? So you're not certain it's me?
4 A. I can confirm that it is you.
5 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what was your answer?
6 MR. MOUSSAOUI: You have been confirmed that it's you.
7 THE COURT: Mr. Bafana, I couldn't hear your answer.
8 What was it, please?
9 THE WITNESS: Confirm it's you.
10 THE COURT: Confirm it's Mr. Moussaoui?
11 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
12 Q. Who confirmed, you?
13 A. You say you want me to confirm it to be sure? Yes, I'm sure
14 it's you.
15 Q. You say that this John had no beard; is it correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So -- and you say that he was bald, correct?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. So you are saying that the, the photo that you see before
20 make you believe that this person is standing today in front of
21 you is the same?
22 A. The same.
23 Q. Are you sure?
24 A. Very sure.
25 Q. It's not the case that the person you met was very heavy
548
1 weight?
2 A. There's no doubt it's you.
3 Q. That's not my question. My question was was the person you
4 met was heavy weight?
5 A. What heavy person?
6 Q. The person you met, you said yourself that he have no beard
7 at all; is it correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. KARAS: Objection. Asked and answered.
10 THE COURT: All right. Well, he's already answered it,
11 Mr. Karas.
12 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Thank you.
13 Q. So have you before this, this testimony, have you -- anybody
14 shown to you a photo of me with -- in the present, present state,
15 with the beard like that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. So before you met me, you were already convinced that the
18 person that you say is John was Mr. Moussaoui?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And who told you this?
21 A. A newspaper.
22 Q. So you got your information from the newspaper?
23 A. Identify John -- the newspaper mentioned that Moussaoui, I
24 had identified him as John.
25 Q. Where did you get the name John?
549
1 A. The letters referred to you as John --
2 Q. Sorry?
3 A. -- among the JI members.
4 The letters referred to you as John among JI members.
5 Q. Which member?
6 A. Zulkipli Marzooki, Yazid Sufaat, and they mentioned Hambali.
7 Q. So the person that you say that is called John, the name was
8 given by the people of your group?
9 A. Possible.
10 Q. Possible. Can you explain? Possible yes, possible no?
11 A. Possible yes.
12 Q. So you say that you met this person that you refer as John.
13 Which name you use when you met him?
14 A. I can't remember.
15 Q. So you do not remember the name of somebody? You remember
16 the face, you remember the name that you use with your friend in
17 the group, but the name you use with him personally, directly, you
18 can't remember; is it correct?
19 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, objection to the form.
20 THE COURT: No, I think that question is comprehensible.
21 I'll overrule that objection.
22 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, I'm sorry, we didn't, we didn't
23 hear your ruling on that.
24 THE COURT: I've overruled the objection.
25 Mr. Bafana, can you tell us what name you used to
550
1 communicate with this person, if any?
2 MR. MOUSSAOUI: He says he doesn't remember. He says he
3 doesn't remember.
4 THE COURT: Do you remember or not?
5 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, the question's on the table.
6 THE COURT: The question that's on the table is what, if
7 any, name does he remember using when he was communicating with
8 this person.
9 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Which he have already say he doesn't
10 remember.
11 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, you broke up there at the end,
12 I'm sorry.
13 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Bafana, can you hear me?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 THE COURT: Do you -- can you remember what name you
16 used in talking with that person we've been talking to -- talking
17 about?
18 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
19 Q. The person you refer as John in the group.
20 THE COURT: The one you refer to as John. Did you ever
21 call him John, or did he ever introduce himself as John?
22 THE WITNESS: I can't remember that.
23 THE COURT: All right, that's the answer.
24 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
25 Q. So do you remember where you met this person that you called
551
1 John, the, the location?
2 A. In Kuala Lumpur. Then later I brought him to my apartment,
3 and later on I met him again in a cyber cafe in Sungai Long, Kuala
4 Lumpur.
5 Q. If you allow me, I just asked you where you met him for the
6 first -- in Kuala Lumpur, meaning that where in Kuala Lumpur? Did
7 you meet him at the airport? Did you meet him at the hotel? Did
8 you meet him at the square? Did you meet him at the market? Can
9 you be precise?
10 A. The first time I met him --
11 Q. Go ahead.
12 A. The first -- the first time I met him together -- he was
13 together with Zulkipli Marzooki. I met him in a restaurant in
14 Kuala Lumpur.
15 Q. So then after you say that you, you went with this person
16 after, after the restaurant, what did you do after the restaurant?
17 A. After the restaurant, later on I believe that I pick him up
18 from his hotel either the next day or something.
19 Q. So you say you believe. You, you don't -- you are not sure?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Yes, you are sure, or yes, you are not sure?
22 A. Not sure.
23 Q. So when you pick him up to, maybe from his hotel, what did
24 you do with him?
25 A. I brought him to my apartment.
552
1 Q. Okay. To go back a bit, what did you discuss with this
2 person at the restaurant?
3 A. That if he has to arrange for his accommodation, that -- we
4 did discuss about food, something like that.
5 Q. Sorry?
6 A. We did talk about food, something like that.
7 Q. So you go to a restaurant to talk about food; is it correct?
8 A. Not to talk about food, but that's what we talk about in the
9 restaurant.
10 Q. So you are meeting with somebody you describe as being
11 potentially somebody engaged in military activity, and the topic
12 of the discussion is about arrangement for food; is it correct?
13 A. At the time, I did not know that you are coming for some
14 military activity.
15 Q. So despite having received many people from, potentially
16 people from al Qaeda, okay, as you refer that you went to
17 Afghanistan and you receive people Arab, okay, this time when you
18 meet this person, John, you didn't know that he was involved in
19 military activity? You thought that he came for the weather?
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. So you thought that this John came to enjoy the, the weather
22 of Malaysia; is it correct?
23 A. Right. It's possible.
24 Q. Sorry?
25 A. It's possible.
553
1 Q. It's possible. Okay.
2 So then after that, you have discussion on food and
3 probably on weather. The next day, you, you pick him up from the
4 hotel; is that correct?
5 A. I remember, yes.
6 Q. Do you remember which hotel?
7 A. A hotel near a bus station in Kuala Lumpur.
8 Q. Sorry?
9 A. A hotel near bus terminal in Kuala Lumpur.
10 Q. A hotel near a bus terminal in Kuala Lumpur.
11 How many year did you live in Kuala Lumpur?
12 A. Eighteen years.
13 Q. You live 18 year in Kuala Lumpur. And is it correct that you
14 said before that you were somehow involved in receiving guests
15 from outside for Hambali; is it correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So despite being involved in receiving people, you don't --
18 you can't remember where this person used to stay, in which hotel?
19 A. Yeah, I can't remember the hotel name.
20 Q. Okay. So, so when this person, you took him -- this John,
21 you took him to your apartment, you say; is it correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you went by bus or by car?
24 A. By car.
25 Q. Can you tell us where is your apartment?
554
1 A. In Gumba (phonetic), Kuala Lumpur.
2 Q. Is it inside town? outside town?
3 A. The outskirts.
4 Q. How long a drive?
5 A. Half an hour from the city.
6 Q. So you went into your apartment with this person that you
7 didn't know was involved in military activity, and so you have no
8 discussion -- sorry. Did you have any at this point, any military
9 discussion with this person?
10 A. We discussed about jihad.
11 Q. Military activity? Islamic military activity, is it correct?
12 A. Yeah. He mentioned something like kidnapping and bank
13 robbery, yes.
14 Q. So you said before that jihad, your understanding, was armed
15 struggle; is it correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So you say just now that you talk about jihad, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. So you understand that jihad on one hand, is it that
20 it is military activity, armed struggle, or it is bank robbery?
21 A. At that moment of time, I believe it is part and parcel, but
22 you are the one who mentioned the bank robbery.
23 Q. No, I'm not talking about me. I'm talking what you believe,
24 you.
25 A. Armed struggle.
555
1 Q. You believe it is armed struggle.
2 So you say you have this person, John, who come to you
3 and talk about doing armed robbery, and you believe that jihad is
4 armed struggle, and you receive him, and you host him in your
5 apartment; is it correct?
6 THE COURT: All right. Do you remember the question,
7 Mr. Bafana?
8 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat, please, Your Honor?
9 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui?
10 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
11 Q. So I say that with your understanding of "jihad" means armed
12 struggle, you are talking with somebody, the person you called
13 John, who this person was saying that you should conduct a
14 robbery, armed robbery, and you receive him, and you go along with
15 him despite the very great difference there is between armed
16 struggle, political armed struggle and armed robbery?
17 MR. KARAS: Objection as to the form, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: That, that question is way too long and, and
19 vague. Just ask it specifically.
20 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
21 Q. So -- were you not puzzled by your understanding of this John
22 relating to doing armed, armed, armed robbery?
23 A. I don't understand your question.
24 Q. Did it frighten you to see somebody pretend to be doing jihad
25 wanting to do armed robbery?
556
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So you were frightened?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And, and despite this, you receive him in your own apartment;
5 is it correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And he stay -- according to you, how long he stay?
8 A. Can you repeat the question, please?
9 Q. How long did this John stay in your apartment?
10 A. One night.
11 Q. One night.
12 Then you had some -- you say you have some discussion
13 about ammonium nitrate; is it correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you tell us exactly, do you remember what kind of
16 discussion you have with this person in your apartment?
17 A. Can you repeat again the question?
18 Q. Can you tell us exactly what kind of discussion you have with
19 this John in your apartment about ammonium nitrate?
20 A. Well, he asked me to inquire about whether we can get this
21 ammonium nitrate.
22 Q. So -- and what did you respond to him?
23 A. I said, "I'll try to make inquiries."
24 Q. At this point, what was your belief about this John, where he
25 was coming from?
557
1 A. My belief is from Afghanistan.
2 Q. And who did he send to you?
3 A. Zulkipli Marzooki.
4 Q. And who, who send him to Zulki Marzooki?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. So you have meeting with the, the group where Zulki Marzooki
7 take part; is it correct?
8 A. Which group?
9 Q. Your group.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So who give order to Zulki Marzooki?
12 A. Possibility is Hambali.
13 Q. So you know that Zulki Marzooki take order from Hambali; is
14 it correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So you know that if Zulki Marzooki have, have somebody, he
17 might be from under the order of Hambali?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So you know that you can, you can reasonably assume that this
20 person, John, come from Hambali?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So you knew that John come from Hambali, correct?
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. So, so you say before that you didn't know that, that John
25 was involved in military activity; is it correct?
558
1 A. At that time, I don't know.
2 Q. Did, did you say this, that you didn't know when you see
3 first time this person, John, that he was involved in military
4 activity? Did you say this earlier? Is it correct?
5 A. Yeah. Yes.
6 Q. So you -- it was your belief that Hambali receive people who
7 are just visiting Malaysia, and you receive people who are not
8 involved in military activity?
9 A. Normally they belong to some Islamic movement groups.
10 Q. So you, you could reasonably assume that this person didn't
11 come to talk about food and to talk about the weather; is it
12 correct?
13 A. Can you repeat, please, the question?
14 Q. You could reasonably assume when you met this person, John,
15 on the company of Marzooki, that this person didn't come to see
16 the weather and the food; is it correct?
17 A. Repeat again, please.
18 Q. (Arabic spoken.) I say that when you met John, you could
19 reasonably assume that this person didn't come to see the weather
20 and enjoy the food of Malaysia; is it correct? Is it possible?
21 A. Possible.
22 Q. Can you be more precise? What do you mean, "possible"?
23 Possible yes? Possible no?
24 MR. KARAS: Objection, Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Mr. Karas, what's the point -- what's the
559
1 basis of the objection?
2 MR. KARAS: The witness said "possible."
3 THE COURT: Yeah. Actually, this whole line of
4 questioning has been done over and over again, and we're going to
5 move it on. The witness's answer is what it is. Move on.
6 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Just a quarter of --
7 THE COURT: You've got about 15 minutes left, so you
8 should use it wisely. You've been over this territory. Go on to
9 something else, Mr. Moussaoui.
10 MR. MOUSSAOUI: We need it today, huh?
11 Q. So you, you have this discussion about ammonium nitrate with
12 this John; is it correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And did he tell you the purpose why he wanted to have
15 ammonium nitrate?
16 A. No.
17 Q. So you have no idea at all what was the purpose of this
18 ammonium nitrate?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You didn't say that ammonium nitrate is used as explosive
21 before?
22 A. I heard it being used. It can be used.
23 Q. You heard it can, it can be used. You are not somebody who
24 is -- who have been to military training in Afghanistan?
25 A. Can you repeat, please?
560
1 Q. Did you go to Afghanistan to receive military training?
2 THE COURT: Now, Mr. Moussaoui --
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 THE COURT: -- that's been asked several -- you're
5 wasting your time. If you want to waste your time, that's up to
6 you.
7 MR. MOUSSAOUI: I'm not wasting my time.
8 THE COURT: That question had been asked several times.
9 It's been answered consistently.
10 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
11 Q. So, so you say that this person -- how can this person
12 started to talk about military training if you were talking about
13 food? Can you explain to how it came about? Did he tell you all
14 of a sudden, "Let's talk about blowing up the world," when he
15 doesn't know you for one day?
16 A. We talk about jihad and about this, like -- well, I told him
17 that, you know, we can finance jihad through, through, like,
18 Indonesia as our economic base, and we can, you know, finance
19 jihad from there, and it leads to, to this further conversation on
20 the ammonium nitrate.
21 Q. So you meet with somebody one day, and then the next day, you
22 start to talk about financing jihad against the United States,
23 buying ammonium nitrate -- or about ammonium nitrate; is it
24 correct? In 24 hours?
25 A. In that time, there's no mention of United States, I mean, to
561
1 attack the military of the United States, but you are the one
2 mention that we need to first attack on American -- we need to
3 bring down America first. Then the rest of the world be easier.
4 Q. So you say that this person asked you for money, correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How much he asked you?
7 A. $10,000 U.S.
8 Q. What was the purpose? What is the purpose he told you he
9 needed this money?
10 A. To finance him where he need to go and see some brothers in
11 Europe, and they can also finance him for his flight training in
12 U.S., as he said that it could be cheaper in the U.S.
13 Q. So this person that you met, you received one day, and then
14 after he talk to you about ammonium nitrate, about attacking the
15 United States of America, he then ask for $10,000 to go take
16 flight training? That's correct?
17 A. Not in one day. That was after a few weeks. About the money
18 is after a few weeks.
19 Q. He didn't say that after he was in the apartment?
20 A. Not in the apartment that he asked for the money.
21 Q. When did you brought this person to the flying school,
22 according to your statement?
23 A. The following day.
24 Q. The following day.
25 So the next day, you knew that this person was
562
1 interested in aviation, correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So the same person who talked to you about ammonium nitrate,
4 attacking the United States, he, he go to a flying school and
5 doesn't tell you what was the purpose of him going to the flying
6 school?
7 A. His purpose is to fulfill his dreams.
8 Q. I'm sorry, forget the purpose.
9 Yes, can you tell us about the dream?
10 A. You mentioned to me that you had a dream that flying the
11 airplane into the White House.
12 Q. Into the White House?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Are you sure it was the White House?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Are you sure it was a dream?
17 A. Yes. That's what you told me.
18 Q. Do you remember where this, this John told you this? Was
19 it --
20 A. In my apartment.
21 Q. -- inside your house?
22 Inside your house?
23 A. Inside the house, yes.
24 Q. And what was the purpose of this person to tell you this, I
25 mean, that this what you understood was the reason for him telling
563
1 you that he had a dream about crashing your airplane into the
2 White House?
3 A. I don't know what your purpose.
4 Q. Do you, do you believe that military people do, do tell their
5 military plan -- I mean, that these mujahideen people go around
6 the world and say to, after one day to somebody, "Hello, I'm going
7 to crash a plane into the White House according to my, to my
8 dream"?
9 MR. KARAS: Objection, Your Honor. It doesn't matter
10 what he believes people may do.
11 THE COURT: I sustain the objection.
12 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
13 Q. Do you know about -- have you been ever instructed about
14 secrecy?
15 A. Can you repeat, please?
16 Q. Have you been ever instructed about secrecy during your
17 Islamic jihad training?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So what do you think about somebody who come and tell you
20 that he's planning in his dream to attack the White House? Does
21 it make sense to you?
22 A. That's what he said are his dreams.
23 Q. That's, that's not the question I'm asking. I asked you does
24 it make sense to you that somebody come to you and say his dreams
25 to you?
564
1 MR. KARAS: Objection, Your Honor. It doesn't matter
2 whether or not it makes sense to the witness.
3 THE COURT: Yeah, that's argument you make to a jury.
4 That's not a proper question that elicits a factual answer.
5 Sustained.
6 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Okay.
7 Q. So when you went to the -- at -- to the military club, you
8 say that you stop at, at the post guard; is it correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you say he recorded your name?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. He didn't ask first for the person you named John, his name
13 or his -- because it's a military installation, and this person
14 obviously look foreign. He might have asked what is this person
15 doing?
16 MR. KARAS: Objection to the form, Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: Sustained.
18 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
19 Q. So you, you give -- you say that this person asked you
20 $10,000, correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you were under, under the understanding that he come from
23 Afghanistan?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you have the belief he come from Sheikh Usama Bin Laden?
565
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So you believe he come from Sheikh Usama Bin Laden; is it
3 correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So it never strike you that this person is asking you money
6 where this person belong to one of the richest mujahideens in the
7 world?
8 A. Can you repeat, please?
9 Q. I say, it didn't seem to you odd or strange that this person
10 who is saying that he's coming from Sheikh Usama Bin Laden, at
11 least you assume it, that he will ask you $10,000, where it is
12 well known that Sheikh Usama Bin Laden, he have plentiful
13 resources?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Yes -- can you be more precise? Yes --
16 A. Strange.
17 Q. It's strange. So you already find it strange that somebody
18 talk to you about dream. Then -- now strange that he ask you
19 money.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Maybe you find this person strange at all.
22 MR. KARAS: Objection, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: This really goes nowhere, Mr. Moussaoui.
24 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Yes, it goes --
25 THE COURT: It's argument you can make to the jury, but
566
1 it's not a good use of your time, which is down to less than ten
2 minutes.
3 MR. MOUSSAOUI: You put it like that. It's not down to
4 you, no?
5 Q. So did you have ever any discussion with Hambali about John?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What did Hambali instruct you?
8 A. First, he asked me about you, that he wanted to see you
9 first. And then later on, when you ask about the money, so I
10 discussed with Hambali, and Hambali said, "Just give him $2,000
11 Singapore, and let him leave Malaysia."
12 Q. Did -- what was exactly the discussion he have -- you have
13 with Hambali?
14 MR. KARAS: Can we specify which discussion?
15 MR. MOUSSAOUI: About the discussion that the witness
16 just mentioned.
17 THE COURT: Well, there are two different discussions.
18 Which one do you want him to discuss?
19 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Well, let's start by the first one.
20 THE WITNESS: About he wanted to see you?
21 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
22 Q. Yeah, why he wanted to see John.
23 A. He didn't tell me why.
24 Q. So you don't know now what was the purpose of the discussion
25 between Hambali and John?
567
1 A. The purpose, that he wanted to see you.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. That he know that I am with you.
4 Q. So what was the, the -- what did you discuss in the second
5 discussion?
6 A. About the money that you request.
7 Q. So what did you tell -- what did you say to, to Hambali?
8 A. I told him that you required $10,000 U.S.
9 Q. What did he say to you?
10 A. Hambali said, he said to me, "Just give him $2,000
11 Singapore."
12 Q. Did you know why this person asked you $10,000?
13 A. He say he wanted to go to Europe, and maybe he can get
14 further finance from brothers over there and can go over to United
15 States to learn flying, that it could be cheaper in the U.S.
16 Q. So this person was, according to you, was concerned about
17 money?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you ever have any other contact with this person?
20 A. After you left Malaysia?
21 Q. After this person you say John left Malaysia.
22 A. Only once by the e-mail.
23 Q. What did he say to you, this person?
24 A. He was asking the whereabout of the doctor, which I assume is
25 Hambali, and I replied back that he's not around.
568
1 Q. You say that you had some contact in December 2001 with
2 Hambali; it is correct?
3 A. Can you repeat, please, that question?
4 Q. You say that you knew the whereabout of Hambali in 2001, in
5 December?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You are saying that, that Brother Hambali was in Malaysia in
8 December 2001?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When did you become aware that Hambali left Malaysia, if he
11 ever left Malaysia?
12 A. He left Malaysia in sometime February 2001, and he came back
13 in December 2001.
14 Q. And that -- okay.
15 So you are not aware that Hambali in September -- from,
16 from November 2001 -- from November -- from November 2000, okay,
17 was subject of a manhunt in Malaysia and that he was first in the
18 front page of all Malaysian newspaper? I'm talking about front
19 page, not --
20 A. Can you repeat, please, that question again?
21 Q. I say that Hambali was subject of manhunt by the Malaysian
22 government. Are you aware of this?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you recall on which date it started?
25 A. Maybe around August.
569
1 Q. August 2000?
2 A. 2001.
3 Q. You talking about 2001, just before, before World Trade
4 Center? I think you should think twice. Take a moment.
5 MR. KARAS: Objection, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: That's not an appropriate interchange with
7 the witness, Mr. Moussaoui, but you've got about two minutes left.
8 If this is what you want to end on, that's, that's fine.
9 MR. MOUSSAOUI: So this -- the witness had just saying
10 something that is completely false.
11 THE COURT: Well, then you can -- that's for you to
12 prove down the road.
13 MR. KARAS: Objection to the comment, Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Yeah, it will be stricken from the record.
15 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
16 Q. So in 2000, around September-November 2000, are you aware
17 that Hambali become subject of an investigation and a search by
18 the Malaysian authority and he, he was exposed in all the
19 Malaysian newspaper as being a, a leader of an Islamic movement in
20 Malaysia? And it was in 2000, not in 2001.
21 THE COURT: Now you're testifying, and that's not a
22 proper question.
23 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Sorry?
24 THE COURT: You need to rephrase that question. That
25 was testimony, not a question.
570
1 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
2 Q. Well, are you aware that Brother Hambali was subject of a
3 manhunt by the Malaysian government in 2000?
4 A. No.
5 Q. No? Around November 2000?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were you living in Malaysia at this point in time?
8 A. Can you repeat, please, that question?
9 Q. Were you living in 2000 in Malaysia?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you -- do you read the newspapers?
12 A. Yes.
13 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Moussaoui, it's 11:30. I'll
14 give you about one more minute to wrap this up, but we have to
15 finish this. I want to not take a break if we can do it
16 technologically. We need to be done, I'm told, by, by noon.
17 MR. MOUSSAOUI: I can't be thorough, because I will not
18 have been done.
19 THE COURT: Well, I have been warning you a lot of these
20 questions have been repetitive, so you've got one minute to wrap
21 it up --
22 MR. MOUSSAOUI: No, no.
23 THE COURT: And then we're going to turn it over to
24 finish this up.
25 MR. MOUSSAOUI: It's completely -- I don't see why you
571
1 give my time to save my life to these people that are against
2 me --
3 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Moussaoui, you're wasting
4 time --
5 MR. MOUSSAOUI: I just have to say it should be shown on
6 the record.
7 THE COURT: You're wasting time and making speeches.
8 MR. MOUSSAOUI: You're wasting my time.
9 Q. So, so you, you say that you had knowledge before September
10 11 that, that I wanted to take some flying lessons, correct?
11 A. Can you repeat, please, the question?
12 Q. You say that you have knowledge before September, September,
13 September 11, 2001, that I wanted to take some flying lessons; is
14 it correct?
15 A. Yes, correct.
16 Q. And you say that before, before 2001, September, you were
17 arrested by the special branch of the Malaysia -- of Malaysia,
18 correct?
19 A. Before September? Yeah. 2001? Yeah.
20 Q. At the time you were --
21 A. Could be after that, October 2001.
22 Q. You do not remember when you were arrested by the special
23 branch?
24 A. Singapore, you mean?
25 Q. No, Malaysia.
572
1 A. Malaysia? No, I was not arrested.
2 Q. No, I'm talking when you were under investigation by the
3 special branch.
4 A. October 2001.
5 THE COURT: All right, that's the time that I've set for
6 this. You may step down, Mr. Moussaoui.
7 Is there any redirect, Mr. Karas?
8 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, I, I just have two brief, two
9 brief points on redirect.
10 THE COURT: All right. And then we're going to turn it
11 over to Mr. Dunham.
12 MR. KARAS: I'm sorry, Your Honor, I didn't hear you.
13 THE COURT: Yes. Ask your two questions quickly, and
14 then we're going to turn this over to Mr. Dunham.
15 MR. KARAS: All right.
16 MR. MOUSSAOUI: The record should show that I wasn't
17 finished, huh?
18 THE COURT: I have been warning you --
19 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Because we are really just touching the
20 points that this person --
21 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, our time is limited by the
22 resources. You've been warned to ask succinct questions. You
23 chose to ask them the way you did. Now we're going to get the
24 next round of this in. This is the same as if we were in trial,
25 so you need to get used to how the case will be conducted.
573
1 Go ahead, Mr. Karas.
2 MR. KARAS: Thank you, Your Honor. Your Honor, I'd like
3 to show the witness what's been marked for identification as
4 Government Exhibit FB0001, the proffer agreement.
5 THE COURT: Yes, we have that here.
6 MR. KARAS: Okay. I'm going to show it to the witness.
7 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. KARAS:
9 Q. Mr. Bafana, I've, I've placed before you what has been marked
10 for identification as FB0001. Do you recognize that agreement?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you sign that agreement?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Prior to signing that agreement, did you have the opportunity
15 to speak with local counsel?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you tell us whether or not that agreement prohibited the
18 United States government from using the information you provided
19 during interviews with government officials in any criminal
20 prosecution of you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you tell us whether or not that agreement covers your
23 testimony here today?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Now with respect to the questions you were asked about Bandar
574
1 and Khalid al-Midhar, can you tell us as you sit here today, the
2 photograph that you were shown, whether or not you were certain
3 that the photograph you were shown of Khalid al-Midhar was, in
4 fact, Bandar?
5 A. I could have mistaken that for Bandar.
6 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Object. We need to see the photo.
7 THE COURT: Yeah. Mr. Karas, do you have the photo at
8 issue with you?
9 MR. KARAS: No, we don't, Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: All right. Well, we'll address this down
11 the road. But there was an objection. I don't think the
12 objection is, is well taken, but it is confusing. This witness
13 has said more than once that he needs to see the photograph to be
14 sure, and no one has shown it to him, so this testimony is
15 unreliable, I think, in that respect.
16 All right, anything further?
17 MR. KARAS: No, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Moussaoui, I'll give you one
19 brief opportunity -- this was the redirect on this part of the
20 examination. Do you have any questions connected to the two lines
21 of questioning Mr. Karas has just raised?
22 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Yes.
23 THE COURT: And it's not meant to repeat old things.
24 You can only focus on what was specifically asked at this time.
25 MR. MOUSSAOUI: I understand. Thank you.
575
1 RECROSS EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. MOUSSAOUI:
3 Q. Regarding to these two persons that you do not really
4 recollect, al-Minghar, or identify, can you tell us what is your
5 knowledge of their activity?
6 A. Can you repeat, please? Whose activity are you referring?
7 Khalid al-Midhar?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. So --
11 THE COURT: That's his answer.
12 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Yeah, but I'm not going to repeat.
13 THE COURT: And this is way beyond what was done on the
14 redirect. It simply asks --
15 MR. MOUSSAOUI: I want to know what was the subject of
16 his testimony to the agents, the FBI agents he gave.
17 THE COURT: You're beyond the scope of the redirect.
18 MR. MOUSSAOUI: That's very relevant, no?
19 THE COURT: So is there anything else as to the
20 redirect?
21 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Regarding the proffer that he signed.
22 Q. You have made some declaration, you have signed the proffer.
23 Can you tell us what were the declaration that you made to the FBI
24 agents and to which now you have a kind of immunity from
25 prosecution on the basis of this alle-, allegation?
576
1 MR. KARAS: Objection as to the form, Your Honor.
2 THE COURT: That's an incomprehensible question. You
3 need to rephrase it.
4 MR. MOUSSAOUI: So, I'll rephrase.
5 Q. I say you have signed an, an agreement with the United States
6 regarding certain testimony you made to them. I want to know what
7 was the content of this testimony.
8 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, this is beyond the scope of the
9 redirect.
10 THE COURT: Yeah, I don't think that adds anything to
11 it. I'm going to sustain the --
12 MR. MOUSSAOUI: I think it's --
13 THE COURT: I sustain the objection.
14 All right, thank you, Mr. Moussaoui. You may step down.
15 Mr. Dunham?
16 MR. DUNHAM: Yes, Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: All right, start your cross examination.
18 MR. DUNHAM: I didn't hear that, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: You may start your cross examination.
20 MR. DUNHAM: All right.
21 CROSS EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. DUNHAM:
23 Q. Now, Mr., Mr. Bafana, you were arrested on December 16 of
24 2001; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
577
1 Q. And you were -- you're being detained under the Singapore
2 Internal Security Act, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You're not facing trial on any charge at the present time.
5 You're just being detained; isn't that right?
6 A. How I understand is being charged under the Internal Security
7 Act.
8 Q. They hold you for two years, and then they can renew it for
9 another two years, and they can do that ten times, right?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. So they could hold you up to 20 years and never give you a
12 trial, right?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. And that's your understanding of your current situation with
15 the government of Singapore, right?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. And then the United States comes over, and they told you that
18 they could possibly prosecute you for violations of U.S. law, for
19 acts against the United States, right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. Now that first meeting, I think Janelle Miller is here
22 in the room and so is Mr. Pellegrino. Do you remember them coming
23 to you on about April 4 of 2002?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And was that the first time you'd met anybody from the FBI?
578
1 A. I believe so.
2 Q. All right. Prior to that time, however, had you had contact
3 with representatives of the United States government?
4 A. No.
5 Q. So the first United States government representatives you
6 ever dealt with in connection with these matters that you've
7 testified here tonight was when Janelle Miller, Francis
8 Pellegrino, Ken Karas -- the prosecutor over here that's been
9 questioning you -- came to see you on April 4?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. Now prior to that time, were you interviewed by
12 representatives of the Singapore ISD, the police department?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And did they question you about the matters or some of the
15 matters that we've talked about here tonight?
16 A. Some of the matters.
17 Q. And did you tell them about this person you call John?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You told them -- they interviewed you frequently, didn't
20 they, between the time that you were arrested on December 16 and
21 when you met the federal prosecutors and the FBI agents on
22 April 4, right?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. And you were not represented by counsel during that period of
25 time, right?
579
1 A. Right.
2 Q. And it's up to their decision, their discretion whether you
3 spend twenty years or six months, right? They can decide how long
4 they want to keep you under the Internal Security Act?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now were they taking notes when they interviewed you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And let me ask you this: You weren't wearing a suit, were
9 you, when they talked to you?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Were you held at the Whitley Detention Center?
12 A. Yes, I think so.
13 Q. Were you held in solitary confinement?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were you held in a room with lights that were on 24 hours a
16 day?
17 A. Yes. Not 24 hours. Daytime the lights off.
18 Q. They turn the lights off at night?
19 A. Yes. Lights on at night.
20 Q. Lights on at night?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. So the lights were on -- there were no windows, right?
23 A. Yeah, openings.
24 Q. There were windows in your cell?
25 A. No window, but there is openings.
580
1 Q. Openings for what?
2 A. You asked for window? Okay. There's no window.
3 Q. There's no windows.
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. There's no natural light, right?
6 A. Yes, there is natural light.
7 Q. There is natural light?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. All right. Now you were -- you were brought into an
10 interrogation room, right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And did you have shoes on?
13 A. Yes. Not shoes. Slippers.
14 Q. Slippers?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. How are you dressed?
17 A. As a detainee dress.
18 Q. As a detainee. What, what does that amount to?
19 A. They are, they are given a kind of dress.
20 Q. Well, is it, is it like underwear? Are they --
21 MR. KARAS: Your --
22 BY MR. DUNHAM:
23 Q. -- underwear?
24 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, we're going to object to this on
25 relevance grounds.
581
1 THE COURT: Well, I assume this is going towards
2 conditions of duress. Is that what it's for, Mr., Mr. Dunham?
3 MR. DUNHAM: That's, that's correct, Your Honor.
4 THE COURT: All right. Then I'm going to overrule the
5 objection. It's relevant.
6 BY MR. DUNHAM:
7 Q. Now during these interrogations, are you standing or sitting?
8 A. Sitting.
9 Q. Never standing? Always sitting?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How long did these interrogations go on?
12 A. Depends.
13 Q. Do they go on sometimes for more than eight hours?
14 A. Sometime, yes.
15 Q. And do you get cold while you're there?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Temperature is just normal? Pleasant temperature all the
18 time?
19 A. I can request -- if it's cold, I can request them to turn the
20 heat on.
21 Q. If it's cold, you tell them to turn up the heat, and they do
22 it for you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right. Now you didn't have counsel during any of this,
25 did you?
582
1 A. No.
2 Q. You didn't have any visitors, right?
3 A. Visitors? Yes, family visitors.
4 Q. You had family visitors.
5 You could use the telephone?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now you met with the officials that we've talked about from
8 the United States -- Miller, Pellegrino, Karas -- and you signed
9 the proffer agreement that's been marked as -- what's the exhibit
10 on that?
11 MR. KARAS: FB0001.
12 MR. DUNHAM: FB000.
13 Q. And you, you did that only after you got legal advice, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Originally, they wanted you to sign it, and you wouldn't sign
16 it until you talked with a lawyer, right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Because you wanted to see if your cooperation could be of any
19 benefit to your situation, right?
20 A. I need a second opinion.
21 Q. A second opinion to see whether or not cooperation with the
22 United States might help your situation, right?
23 A. Possible.
24 Q. And the opinion that you got, I'm not going to ask you what
25 your lawyer told you, but after talking to your lawyer, you signed
583
1 the agreement, right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And then you proceeded to try to cooperate as best as you
4 could with the FBI agents and the prosecutor who are investigating
5 Mr. Moussaoui's case, right?
6 A. I don't know that the prosecutor is investigating Moussaoui's
7 case.
8 Q. Well, they were investigating an individual you knew to be
9 John, right?
10 A. They were asking a lot of questions.
11 Q. They were investigating a lot of things then, right?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. But one of the things they were investigating was a man named
14 John, right?
15 A. They asked for all information.
16 Q. Right. But they were interested -- and included in that was
17 information on John, right?
18 A. Included, yes.
19 Q. All right. Now when you -- when we talk about John, you --
20 is it fair to say that John was a -- can you say that he didn't
21 tell you what his name was when he was here?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And so you never heard the name --
24 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection.
25 BY MR. DUNHAM:
584
1 Q. -- Zacarias Moussaoui before?
2 THE COURT: Wait, wait, wait.
3 THE WITNESS: No.
4 THE COURT: There's an objection.
5 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. I never said --
6 THE COURT: Wait. Go up to the lectern.
7 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection. He make statement about
8 something I, I didn't say, Dunham. He says that I never say what
9 was my name. I never make any allegation regarding this.
10 THE COURT: I -- your understanding of the record and
11 mine is different. I'm overruling the objection. I don't think
12 the question misstates the record.
13 Go ahead, Mr. Dunham, reask your question.
14 BY MR. DUNHAM:
15 Q. The question is that the individual you, you referred to on
16 your direct testimony as John never told you, as I understand it,
17 that his name was Zacarias Moussaoui?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you never heard the name Zacarias Moussaoui in your life
20 until tonight, right?
21 A. No.
22 Q. When did you first hear that name?
23 A. Sometime 2001.
24 Q. Sometime -- would you -- can you give us any approximate time
25 as to when you heard that name?
585
1 A. Around maybe August 2001.
2 Q. And how did you hear that name -- how did you happen to hear
3 that name in August of 2001?
4 A. It was, I think it was after September 11.
5 Q. So it wasn't August 2001.
6 A. It wasn't August, yeah.
7 Q. All right. So how did you happen to hear the name Zacarias
8 Moussaoui?
9 A. It was published in the newspapers.
10 Q. And what did the, what did the newspaper article tell you?
11 A. It say that this person by the name of Zacarias Moussaoui was
12 arrested, and the other thing it mentioned that they also found a
13 letterhead belongs to one of the companies in Malaysia.
14 Q. Was there a picture?
15 A. Yes. There was a photo, yeah.
16 Q. So you've got a newspaper article that told you about a
17 photo, told you about Yazid Sufaat's information. Did it say
18 anything about him wanting to learn how to fly?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Nothing about that in the newspaper article that you read?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And what newspaper was this in?
23 A. The Malaysian newspaper.
24 Q. Now the investigators, Ms. Janelle Miller and Mr. Pellegrino,
25 they told you that if you were willing to talk to the U.S.
586
1 government, then it would lead to benefits for you, didn't they?
2 A. No.
3 Q. So on April 4 of 2002, you did not tell the investigators,
4 particularly Francis Pellegrino and Janelle Miller -- the
5 investigators did not tell you that if you were willing to talk to
6 the U.S. government, that it could lead to benefits for you; is
7 that true?
8 A. I think so.
9 Q. You think what?
10 A. It would not lead to a benefit.
11 Q. They didn't tell you that?
12 A. The benefit is just that whatever I told them will not be
13 used against me in the court of law, but maybe was to find out the
14 other sources, yes.
15 Q. I'm sorry, listen to my question.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. Did the investigators, Francis Pellegrino and Janelle Miller,
18 on April 4 tell you that if you were willing to talk to the U.S.
19 government, that it could lead to benefits for you?
20 A. Possible.
21 Q. Now you also asked Mr. Karas, did you not, how you could
22 protect yourself from charges being brought against you in the
23 United States? Did you not?
24 A. Can you repeat, please?
25 Q. You asked him that, didn't you? You asked -- didn't -- did
587
1 you ask Mr. Karas on April 4, 2002, how you could protect yourself
2 from charges being brought against you in the United States?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then Mr. Karas told you about Wadih el-Hage, right, who
5 was doing lifetime for lying, right?
6 A. I think so.
7 Q. Now the agreement Mr. Karas offered you was a noncooperation
8 agreement, right? It was not a cooperation agreement. It says it
9 right in there, doesn't it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And the government's never offered you a cooperation
12 agreement, have they?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. They've never offered you a cooperation agreement, have they?
15 A. Yes, never.
16 Q. You mean yes, they, they have not offered you one, right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. Now you were an experienced liar for Jemaah Islamiyah,
19 JI, right?
20 MR. KARAS: Objection, Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: I think you can rephrase that question,
22 Mr. Dunham, and get the same kind of answer that I think you're
23 looking for. So I'll sustain the objection, but you may rephrase
24 it.
25 BY MR. DUNHAM:
588
1 Q. A part of your job for, for JI was to tell lies to
2 authorities about people coming into Malaysia and leaving
3 Malaysia, right?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. You were good at that, right?
6 A. Authority? How?
7 Q. I mean, you would go and tell them lies, and they would
8 believe them, right?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. So you were good at that, right?
11 A. I don't know whether I was good or not.
12 Q. Well, they believed you, didn't they?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. And you weren't telling them the truth, were you?
15 A. Yeah, but I never feel like I was good at it. I never feel
16 that I was good at it.
17 Q. Well, let's put it this way: The -- Hambali and the people
18 above you in the organization, they had you doing this for them,
19 right?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. Now you wouldn't have somebody bake a cake that didn't know
22 how to cook, would you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So they felt you were the right man to go up there and lie to
25 the authorities, right?
589
1 A. Right.
2 Q. Because you could do it convincingly?
3 A. Possible.
4 Q. And you lied to the government in this case, didn't you?
5 After they, after they began interviewing you, you, you lied to
6 them, didn't you? Didn't you tell them that you didn't know
7 anything about this bombing that killed 22 people and injured a
8 hundred in, in Manila, the LRT station? When these gentlemen
9 first interviewed you, didn't you say that you were surprised to
10 hear that this train station had been bombed?
11 A. When the time -- the time when they, they asked me, I was
12 surprised. I told them yes.
13 Q. When Saad called you and said, "The job has been done," you
14 told these gentlemen that you were surprised, because this -- the
15 bombing of that station had not been discussed, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But in fact, it had been discussed, hadn't it?
18 A. I don't know that was the final -- I mean, that was the, in
19 the end, the final target, yes.
20 Q. I mean, you were in -- you were meeting with Saad and
21 Hambali, and you were talking about possible targets, right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And one of the targets you talked about was the train
24 station, right?
25 A. Right.
590
1 Q. And then the bomb goes off. You read the newspapers, don't
2 you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So that, that was big news, wasn't it, when a bomb went off
5 in the Philippines at a train station, killed 22 people and, and
6 injured 100?
7 A. I was surprised really, because Hambali did not really
8 mention to Saad that that was his target, and he went there to
9 look at the U.S. military -- U.S. Embassy and also the Israeli
10 Embassy, and he also used this $3,600 U.S. which belongs to Arabs.
11 So I was surprised that this money were used and not for the
12 American Embassy or the Israeli target. That's why I was
13 surprised.
14 Q. But you knew that that was one of the targets he was thinking
15 about hitting, didn't you?
16 A. He didn't mention that that was the target. Only did Saad
17 mention it.
18 Q. So you, you, you weren't truthful -- completely truthful
19 during the interviews, were you?
20 A. I say what I believe. I'm surprised; I'm surprised.
21 Q. Now you, you took $3,600 to Saad for use in setting up this
22 bombing, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you also got $20,000 from, I guess that's Malaysian or is
25 that Singaporean?
591
1 A. Malaysian.
2 Q. Is what?
3 A. Malaysian ringgits.
4 Q. Okay. And that, that 20,000 from Mukhtar, you took some of
5 the money from that, this 20,000, and some of money from JI funds,
6 right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now you were deeply involved in the activities of JI, right?
9 You were involved in funding, arranging for travel, lying to the
10 authorities, arranging for the purchase of explosives, and
11 planning particular operations that would kill people, right?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. And you were deeply involved in all of that. In fact, you
14 were one of the leaders, right?
15 A. I was close to Hambali.
16 Q. Yeah. You were a planner, a mastermind of these things,
17 right?
18 A. Some of it, yes.
19 Q. And this was because of your religion?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And the others that were involved with you, they did it
22 because of their religion?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Planted bombs randomly to kill people, military or otherwise?
25 A. Yes.
592
1 Q. And this was -- you felt this was Allah's will, God's will
2 that you did this?
3 A. At that time, I feel like this, for the sake of religion.
4 Q. Now how is it that you consider these people that you were
5 involved with to be bad people if they were doing it for Allah?
6 A. They were not bad people.
7 Q. Well, didn't you tell the FBI that these people were bad
8 people?
9 A. I can't remember saying that.
10 Q. Well, excuse me a second while I find it.
11 Did you tell on April 4, 2002 -- excuse me. Yeah, on
12 April 4, 2002, did you tell Special Agents Pellegrino and Miller
13 as well as Mr. Karas over there, the prosecutor, that you didn't
14 start off being bad, but then one thing led to another, and you
15 ended up getting involved with bad people? Did you tell them
16 that?
17 A. I can't remember saying "bad people."
18 Q. Are you saying you didn't say "bad people"?
19 A. I can't remember that.
20 Q. You what?
21 A. I can't remember saying "bad people."
22 Q. You can't remember saying "bad people."
23 A. Unh-unh.
24 Q. Who were the bad people you were talking about that you got
25 yourself involved with?
593
1 A. I said I didn't remember.
2 MR. KARAS: Objection, Your Honor. He just said that he
3 didn't.
4 MR. DUNHAM: Oh, I thought he said he did remember.
5 MR. KARAS: He does not remember.
6 THE COURT: The objection is sustained.
7 BY MR. DUNHAM:
8 Q. Well, did you say equivalent words to "bad people," or has
9 this been made up by the agents?
10 A. I'm sorry, I can't recall that.
11 Q. Now the year 2000, I want to focus on that just a little bit.
12 As I understand it, you went to Pakistan and then into Afghanistan
13 in 1999 with a videotape that you were supposed to show to
14 somebody by the name of Mukhtar, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And this videotape was to hit a train station, kind of like
17 the rapid transit thing that was hit in the Philippines, but you
18 were going to hit one in Singapore, right?
19 A. The videotape, the videotape showed an MRT station.
20 Q. An MRT station, a rapid transit station, just like the one
21 that you funded to hit in Philippines, right?
22 A. Yeah. But that was not the target.
23 Q. It was a target, and the only difference was because a lot of
24 the people that happened to use that station are U.S. military,
25 right?
594
1 A. No.
2 Q. I'm talking about the train station in Singapore.
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. A lot of people that use that are U.S. military?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Not?
7 A. Not as far as I know.
8 Q. Okay. So you took a tape of a rapid transit station in
9 Singapore, you took it to Afghanistan along with your plan on how
10 to blow up the station and injure a lot of people, right?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You didn't?
13 A. To attack the MRT station? No.
14 Q. Well, to attack a bus full of people that were going to the
15 MRT station?
16 A. The bus.
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. The bus, yes. The military bus.
19 Q. You think -- did you have your plan figured out so that
20 nobody but people on the bus would be hurt?
21 A. No.
22 Q. All right. So you took this plan that -- to, to injure
23 people on the bus at the MRT station, the videotape, and your
24 proposal on how to do it, a written proposal, right?
25 A. Right.
595
1 Q. A proposal you wrote, and you took it all the way to
2 Afghanistan, didn't you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Looking for Mukhtar?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And why did you have to take it to Mukhtar to have him look
7 at it?
8 A. It was on request by Hambali.
9 Q. Hambali said, "Take it to Mukhtar"?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Were you trying to get it funded?
12 A. He asked me to bring it to them. That's all.
13 Q. And when you took -- you didn't find Mukhtar. You apparently
14 found Abu Hafs; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right. And when you get to Abu Hafs, you show him this
17 plan, and Hafs says, "Well, we'll send you the money, and if you
18 need some people to commit martyrdom, to be suicide bombers, we
19 can send you that, but you're going to have to buy the explosives,
20 and you're going to have to figure out a way to transport the
21 explosives into Singapore," right?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. So it was a joint venture, right?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. All right. Now this was in 1999. Do you know what part of
596
1 the year it was?
2 A. Mid-1999.
3 Q. What?
4 A. Middle 1999. Mid of 1999.
5 Q. Middle of 1999.
6 So you come back, return back to, to Kuala Lumpur, and
7 you don't hear anything for a while, right?
8 A. Yes.
9 (Tape paused.)
10 THE COURT: It is 3:30. I really try to keep on
11 schedule. I know this is sort of mind-deadening a little bit, so
12 a 20-minute recess, ladies and gentlemen.
13 (Recess from 3:30 p.m. until 3:50 p.m.)
14 (Defendant and Jury in.)
15 (Videotaped deposition resumed.)
16 Q. Then all of a sudden, somebody comes back with the 20 grand?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. From Abu Hafs, right? Wasn't that Muklas who brought back
19 $20,000?
20 A. From Mukhtar.
21 Q. From Mukhtar?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. For the plan that you'd sent up there, right?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. Now did you get this $20,000 before or after John arrived on
597
1 the scene?
2 A. I can't remember at that time exactly, exactly when.
3 Q. Well, does it refresh your memory any if I told you that you
4 told the investigators and Mr. -- and the prosecutors here that
5 this was mid-2000 when Muklas brought the 10 grand -- the 20 grand
6 to you? Does that refresh your recollection at all?
7 A. Possible.
8 Q. All right. Now when did John arrive?
9 A. Around mid-2000.
10 Q. Around mid-2000, right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And so you're not sure whether the money came before or after
13 him, right?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Now as I understand it, John stayed one evening at your home.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And he was a bit paranoid, right?
18 A. Can you --
19 Q. He was -- do you know what "paranoid" means? Fearful,
20 scared.
21 MR. MOUSSAOUI: Objection.
22 THE COURT: Wait, wait. What's the basis for the
23 objection, Mr. Moussaoui?
24 MR. MOUSSAOUI: What is the basis of the question? He's
25 leading the, the witness.
598
1 THE COURT: Well, on cross examination -- and that's
2 what this is -- you can lead. In fact, normally defense attorneys
3 do that. So the objection is overruled.
4 Mr. Dunham?
5 MR. DUNHAM: Yes, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: I realize we're past the time that I
7 understood you had authority for. Can, can this proceed slightly
8 longer over there?
9 MR. DUNHAM: Your Honor, I, I would like at least 15
10 minutes, if I could, to finish up this line of questioning anyway.
11 THE COURT: Mr. Karas, I mean, you're guests of a
12 foreign country. Are you aware of any problem going a little bit
13 longer?
14 MR. KARAS: We can go longer, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: All right, let's continue this. Go ahead.
16 BY MR. DUNHAM:
17 Q. All right. Now when I say a bit paranoid, let me explain
18 what I mean. He wouldn't talk about things inside your house that
19 he thought were -- that he thought was sensitive, right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In other words, he was scared that it was bugged or somebody
22 was listening. At least that was your impression, right?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. So he insisted that you go outside and sit on a park bench.
25 A. Yes.
599
1 Q. And the -- and what he talked about on the park bench was
2 purchasing explosives?
3 A. Yes, inquiring.
4 Q. Now you already had a need to purchase explosives, didn't
5 you?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Well, you sent the plan to Afghanistan. They approved it and
8 sent back money. Didn't you have a need to buy explosives for
9 that?
10 A. Yes, but not ammonium nitrate.
11 Q. Oh, your plan was for some other kind of explosives?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. And then as I understand it, you thought that
14 Mr. Moussaoui was cuckoo, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And Hambali thought he was, too, right?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. And you couldn't wait to get him out of there, right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And so you sent him off to Penang?
21 A. That was before we thought that he --
22 Q. Well, you sent him to Penang to get him out of your hair,
23 right?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Why did you send him to Penang?
600
1 A. I don't have an accommodation in Kuala Lupur at that time, so
2 I make -- originally, I had to arrange for the accommodation.
3 Q. Well, what about Yazid Sufaat's apartment?
4 A. At the time, I think it was not available.
5 Q. Did you talk to Yazid Sufaat about it?
6 A. I can't remember.
7 Q. Now as I understand it, John asked you about the availability
8 of ammonium nitrate, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And for some reason, he asked about the availability of it,
11 and you ended up buying four tons of it, right?
12 A. Not I ended up buying it.
13 Q. Well, you and the people that worked for you ended up buying
14 four tons of ammonium nitrate, right?
15 A. It was a mistake.
16 Q. Well, you're saying that what happened -- the sequence of
17 events was was Mr. Moussaoui -- Mr. John asked you about the
18 availability of ammonium nitrate, and you guys went out and bought
19 four tons of it. Is that what happened?
20 A. Mistakenly, yes.
21 Q. Mr. Moussaoui never -- Mr. John never asked you to buy a
22 single thing, did he?
23 A. No. At that moment, no. At that moment, no.
24 Q. And after buying the four tons of it, did you ever ask him
25 what he wanted it for or why he was inquiring about it?
601
1 A. No, I didn't ask him.
2 Q. Do you know if anybody else asked him?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Well, that was a lot of money, wasn't it?
5 A. Well, we -- because one of the JI members mentioned that if
6 we don't purchase it -- see, they already made the commitment, so
7 in future we need it, then we won't be able to get it anymore if
8 this time we do not purchase it.
9 Q. But you had your own needs for that -- for those kinds of
10 explosives, right? You were contemplating a lot of different
11 plans at that time.
12 A. But not ammonium nitrate.
13 Q. Now who's Qudama?
14 A. JI member.
15 Q. And he's the one that purchased this?
16 A. I believe he is.
17 Q. Now was John still in Malaysia when the materials were
18 purchased?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And nobody talked about him -- talked to him about it as far
21 as you know?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now as I understand it, you took Mr., Mr. John to a flying
24 school?
25 A. Yes.
602
1 Q. And Mr. Karas showed you pictures of that school on your
2 direct examination; is that correct?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Now you, you'd taken somebody there before, hadn't you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Mr. Zaini, is it -- am I pronouncing that right? Mr. Zaini?
7 A. Zaini, yes.
8 Q. He wanted to learn how to fly.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And so you took him over there to the club and signed in at
11 the gate, and then he went into the club and talked to the lady,
12 too, didn't he?
13 A. Not the lady.
14 Q. Who did he talk to?
15 A. The pilot, a man. A man.
16 Q. Was the lady there?
17 A. I didn't notice the lady that time.
18 Q. Now did you sign in the same way you did with -- when
19 Mr. Moussaoui went?
20 A. Zaini signed in then.
21 Q. What did you say?
22 A. Zaini is the one who signed in.
23 Q. Well, who drove over there?
24 A. I drove over there.
25 Q. And so it was your car?
603
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did they take down your license number and your ID?
3 A. I can't remember whether they take my ID, but I think Zaini
4 went to --
5 Q. When did this happen?
6 A. Early 2000.
7 Q. Do you have even an approximate month?
8 A. Approximate month?
9 Q. Didn't you say -- didn't you tell the FBI it was not too long
10 before John came?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. And that's correct, isn't it? Not -- it was very close in
13 time?
14 A. A very few months.
15 Q. A few months?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now Zaini was interested in learning how to fly and then
18 returning to Afghanistan, right?
19 A. I don't know that.
20 Q. And after 9/11, when you heard about the planes crashing on
21 9/11, you thought of Zaini, right?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You didn't tell the FBI on -- when they interviewed you in
24 May of this year that when you heard of 9/11, you thought of
25 Zaini; you didn't think of John?
604
1 A. I thought of Zaini, yes.
2 Q. You thought of Zaini.
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. All right. Didn't think of John, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Because you didn't think John's discussion was serious,
7 right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. He went outside to talk about ammonium nitrate but talked in
10 the house that he thought was bugged about his dream about flying
11 into the White House, right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So you didn't think he was serious about that?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. DUNHAM: Your Honor?
16 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
17 MR. DUNHAM: I -- in order to honor your request to, to
18 shorten things, I would stop here, but I could go longer if
19 permitted.
20 THE COURT: Well, how much longer, Mr. Dunham?
21 MR. DUNHAM: I understand --
22 THE COURT: Mr. Dunham, how much longer do you need?
23 MR. DUNHAM: Another -- about another ten minutes, Your
24 Honor.
25 THE COURT: All right, I think we can handle ten more
605
1 minutes if everybody else can. I want to get this completed so
2 that it's, it's full. So go ahead.
3 BY MR. DUNHAM:
4 Q. Now you know Mr. Sufaat, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. He's a friend of yours?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And after you sent Mr. Moussaoui up to Penang and he'd been
9 up there for what, two to three days, you, you brought him back to
10 Kuala Lumpur?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How did you do that?
13 A. I asked Qudama to bring him back.
14 Q. You asked who to bring him back?
15 A. Qudama.
16 Q. All right. And he brought -- and did he go up and drive him
17 and bring him back by car? Is that what he did?
18 A. I don't know how he got brought back.
19 Q. And he -- and then where did he stay?
20 A. I believe at Yazid Sufaat's.
21 Q. He didn't come back to your house?
22 A. No.
23 Q. All right. And -- because Hambali wanted him back there,
24 right?
25 A. Yes.
606
1 Q. And then the deal was that you got a call from him saying he
2 needed $10,000; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you met him at a cyber cafe that was near Yazid Sufaat's
5 apartment?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did he give you any explanation as to why you guys just
8 didn't meet in the apartment?
9 A. He didn't give any reason.
10 Q. Did you think it was the same thing that had happened when
11 you walked out to the park to talk about the ammonium nitrate?
12 A. I don't recall. I don't know what the reason.
13 Q. Well, he did tell you he wanted 10 grand, didn't he?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. All right. So you met him at the cyber cafe, and at that
16 time, he was doing Internet talk with somebody he hoped would be a
17 future bride; isn't that correct?
18 A. There was some mention about it, yeah.
19 Q. All right. He was talking about getting married, right?
20 A. He was mention that some ladies are interested.
21 Q. Was interested.
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. And he was interested, right?
24 A. He looked interested, yes.
25 Q. He looked interested, too.
607
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. All right. It didn't, it didn't sound like a man that was
3 planning on ending his life, did he?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. Well, you -- that was not your impression, that he was
6 planning on, on ending his life, right?
7 A. I don't know the man.
8 Q. Now there was a meeting in January of 2000, and I -- of a
9 couple of people. Khalid al-Midhar came up during your review of
10 photographs, I believe, with the government. Did you remember him
11 coming to Kuala Lumpur and staying in Yazid Sufaat's apartment?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Now I have -- where's my news articles?
14 Now this gentleman that you refer to as Saad in your
15 testimony, is that a gentleman also known as Fathur Roman
16 al-Ghozi?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you know him as both names?
19 A. I know him as -- really I know him as Saad.
20 Q. Now did you in October of 2001 tell al-Ghozi to buy more
21 explosives and prepare them for shipping to Singapore?
22 A. October 2001?
23 Q. October 2001, yes.
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you ever ask him to buy explosives and prepare them for
608
1 shipping to Singapore?
2 A. To look for explosive.
3 Q. For shipping to Singapore.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Because you were going to do what with those explosives in
6 Singapore?
7 A. For the planned attack on U.S. warship.
8 Q. And isn't it -- what about the U.S. Embassy and the Israeli
9 Embassy? Were you going to hit them, too?
10 A. That I don't know.
11 Q. Well, is it fair to say that the four tons of ammonium
12 nitrate that you bought was not enough, that you actually needed
13 21 tons to accomplish what you were trying to accomplish?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Now do you know where the, the, the four tons of ammonium
16 nitrate was stored after you bought it?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Where?
19 A. Somewhere in Miri.
20 Q. In where?
21 A. Malaysia. Miri, Malaysia.
22 Q. Was that your decision to put it there?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Whose decision was that?
25 A. I don't know whose decision.
609
1 Q. How did you learn of the decision?
2 A. Can you repeat, please?
3 Q. How did you learn of the decision to, to hide the stuff in
4 Malaysia?
5 A. I learned it was, was stored there by Qudama.
6 Q. And you can use that ammonium nitrate to make truck bombs
7 with, right?
8 A. They wanted to use that.
9 Q. What?
10 A. They wanted to use that.
11 Q. For, for that purpose?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. And at that time that -- you were working on a plan to hit
14 targets in Singapore, right, you and your brothers? And by
15 "brothers," I mean your blood brothers, not your Muslim brothers.
16 A. I asked him to assist them.
17 Q. You asked who to assist them?
18 A. My brother.
19 Q. You asked your brothers to assist al-Ghozi?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In getting the explosives into Singapore, right?
22 A. No.
23 Q. In doing what?
24 A. To -- I was asking my brother to assist al-Ghozi's stay in
25 Singapore.
610
1 Q. Okay. And what was, what was he supposed to do in Singapore,
2 your brother?
3 A. He's supposed to, he's supposed to assist al-Ghozi's stay in
4 Singapore. That was my intention.
5 Q. He would assist al-Ghozi in planning the attack?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. I'm, I'm not following you on what you're saying he's
8 going to assist him on. What was, what was --
9 A. For his accommodation in Singapore.
10 Q. Oh, to put him up in a hotel?
11 A. A hotel, yeah.
12 Q. He wasn't supposed to have anything to do with, with planning
13 the attacks?
14 A. He wasn't supposed to.
15 Q. But he did, right?
16 A. Not until after my arrest that I know.
17 Q. Now your brother's also being detained at the present time,
18 right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now there were videotapes made of several targets here in
21 Singapore that you were going to use these explosives on, right?
22 A. I don't know that.
23 Q. You never saw the videotapes?
24 A. No.
25 MR. KARAS: Can we get a time frame here, Mr. Dunham?
611
1 MR. DUNHAM: In late 2001.
2 MR. KARAS: Okay.
3 THE WITNESS: No.
4 THE COURT: Anything further, Mr. Dunham?
5 MR. DUNHAM: I'm just checking my notes, Your Honor. I
6 think I'm just about done. I'm just going through the notes one
7 second.
8 Okay. Hold just one second. I have one thing to check,
9 Your Honor, and I'll be done here.
10 All right, I am done, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Karas, because this line of
12 questioning would be used as an alternate if Mr. Moussaoui were no
13 longer pro se at trial, you would have a right to redirect as to
14 the cross by Mr. Dunham. Is there any redirect the government
15 wants?
16 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, the redirect here can be brief.
17 THE COURT: All right.
18 MR. KARAS: May I proceed, Your Honor?
19 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
20 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. KARAS:
22 Q. Okay. Mr. Bafana, you were asked questions about the
23 conditions of your imprisonment here in Singapore. Do you recall
24 that? The conditions of your confinement.
25 A. Yeah.
612
1 Q. Okay. Has anybody in the Singaporean government inflicted
2 any physical harm on you to force you to cooperate with the United
3 States government?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Has anybody in the Singaporean government threatened physical
6 harm of you if you didn't cooperate with the United States
7 government?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. You were asked questions about whether or not you were
10 offered benefits from cooperating with the United States
11 government. Do you recall that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did anybody from the United States government promise you any
14 benefits from cooperating with the United States government?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Now in terms of your situation here in Singapore, do you
17 think you will be helped or hurt if you lie here during this
18 deposition?
19 A. Can you repeat, please?
20 Q. If you -- in terms of your situation here in Singapore, do
21 you think you will help yourself or hurt yourself if you lie
22 during this deposition?
23 A. I'll hurt myself.
24 Q. Now you were asked questions about false statements you made
25 to immigration officers. Do you recall that?
613
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is anything you said here this evening a lie?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And in particular, is anything you said about Mr. Moussaoui
5 and his statements to you and his conduct in Malaysia a lie?
6 A. No.
7 MR. KARAS: Thank you, Your Honor. Nothing further.
8 THE COURT: All right. Any recross, Mr. Dunham?
9 MR. DUNHAM: I have no, no recross, Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: All right. Then that concludes the
11 deposition of the witness, subject to the order that set this up.
12 Is there anything further we need to address, Mr. Karas or
13 Mr. Spencer or Mr. Dunham?
14 MR. DUNHAM: Nothing, Your Honor, as far as I'm
15 concerned.
16 MR. KARAS: Nothing from the government, Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: All right. Then that concludes this
18 proceeding, and we will recess court until 1:30.
19 THE WITNESS: (Arabic spoken.)
20 MR. MOUSSAOUI: (Arabic spoken.)
21 (Which were all the proceedings
22 had at this time.)"
23 (End of video.)
24 THE COURT: There was reference during that deposition
25 to Defense Exhibit No. 1. I think that was during the pro se
614
1 portion of the case. Do defense counsel want that exhibit made
2 part of the record or not?
3 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, I'm not sure what that
4 exhibit is. Could we, could we look for it tonight and get back
5 to you in the morning?
6 THE COURT: All right. And the only other exhibit that
7 I heard -- and I might have missed it -- was the proffer
8 statement. I don't think that's among the ones -- or is it among
9 the ones you moved in?
10 MR. RASKIN: I did not move it in. It was marked a
11 defense exhibit, but we have no objection to it going in.
12 THE COURT: Well, I'll let you-all decide what you want
13 to do, but that's what I heard as two exhibits referenced in the
14 deposition that were not included among the exhibits you indicated
15 were being moved in with the deposition.
16 MR. RASKIN: That's correct.
17 THE COURT: All right. That's --
18 MR. MAC MAHON: And the government kindly handed me a
19 copy. We'll take a look at it and get back to you in the morning,
20 Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: And also decide about the proffer statement
22 which was referenced by a number, was it 0001, something like
23 that? And if you want that made a part of the case, just let us
24 know tomorrow morning.
25 MR. MAC MAHON: Gerard's two for two, Your Honor. He
615
1 has both of them. We'll get together on it tonight. Thank you.
2 THE COURT: That's fine.
3 Mr. Raskin?
4 MR. RASKIN: Your Honor, just a brief reading of the
5 stipulation. Then we'll call our next witness.
6 THE COURT: All right.
7 MR. RASKIN: I'm reading from ST-1, page 85, paragraph
8 122. The following facts are contained in admissible business
9 records: A, on September 6, 2000, Moussaoui registered the e-mail
10 address pilotz123, that's pilotz123@hotmail.com from IP address
11 202.47.169.200, in Selangor, S-e-l-a-n-g-o-r, Malaysia. The name
12 on the account was Zuluman Tangotango. This e-mail account was
13 used by Moussaoui.
14 A draft message to Wings, W-i-n-g-s, International,
15 dated September 6, 2000, was recovered from the e-mail account.
16 The subject of the draft e-mail message was, "to be a jet pilot in
17 a short time," and stated the following in relevant parts:
18 "I would like to join you at high speed, so could you
19 send me some detail information about how to become fully jet
20 engine pilot, which step and how much it cost, I interested in
21 training of a very short period of time as possible will come from
22 overseas." Zuluman.
23 B, on September 29, 2000, Moussaoui e-mailed Airman
24 Flight School in Norman, Oklahoma, asking for information.
25 Moussaoui used the name Zuluman Tangotango, and the e-mail address
616
1 pilotz123@hotmail.com.
2 C, on October 5, 2000, Moussaoui departed Kuala Lumpur,
3 Malaysia.
4 At this time, the government calls Brenda Keene.
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 BRENDA KEENE, GOVERNMENT'S WITNESS, AFFIRMED
7 DIRECT EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. RASKIN:
9 Q. Good afternoon. Could you tell us your name?
10 A. Brenda Keene.
11 Q. Could you spell the last name?
12 A. K-e-e-n-e.
13 Q. I think if you either move the microphone a little closer to
14 you or move yourself a little closer to the microphone, we'll hear
15 you. Thank you.
16 Ms. Keene, what was -- what name did you go by in late
17 2000-early 2001?
18 A. Brenda Whitehead.
19 Q. And spell the last name?
20 A. W-h-i-t-e-h-e-a-d.
21 Q. Where were you working during that time?
22 A. Airman Flight School.
23 Q. And where is Airman Flight School located?
24 A. 1950 Goddard Avenue, Norman, Oklahoma.
25 Q. When did Airman Flight School open?
617
1 A. 1987.
2 Q. And is that school open now?
3 A. No, it is not.
4 Q. When did it close?
5 A. It closed September of 2005.
6 Q. Now, when did you start working at Airman Flight School?
7 A. The day that it opened.
8 Q. And what was your title during the majority of the time that
9 you worked at Airman Flight School?
10 A. I was the admissions director.
11 Q. Did you work there until it closed?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. As admissions director, did you deal with incoming students?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. How many students attended Airman Flight School approximately
16 during the calendar year 2001?
17 A. Approximately 200 per year for 2001.
18 Q. And what was the curriculum for students at Airman Flight
19 School? What did they learn there?
20 A. They can obtain just a private pilot or up to commercial
21 pilot and/or flight instructor as well.
22 Q. Private pilot's license, is that what you said?
23 A. Private pilot license or private pilot certificate or
24 commercial certificate.
25 Q. And those certificates are issued by the Federal Aviation
618
1 Administration?
2 A. Yes, they are.
3 Q. And is there an FAA -- withdrawn.
4 Is there a set of required courses that one needs to
5 take to obtain those licenses?
6 A. Yes, there is. They have to follow a curriculum and have to
7 have X number of flight hours and ground school hours.
8 Q. And Airman Flight School provides that training?
9 A. Yes, we do.
10 Q. Are you familiar with an individual named Zacarias Moussaoui?
11 A. Yes, I am.
12 Q. When did you meet Mr. Moussaoui?
13 A. I met him February of 2001.
14 Q. And how is it that you came to meet Mr. Moussaoui?
15 A. He inquired to our school via an e-mail about pilot training,
16 and then he subsequently came to the school for the flight
17 training.
18 Q. And did you meet with him as an incoming student in February
19 of 2001?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. And how long did you know Mr. Moussaoui?
22 A. Until he completed -- stopped his training. His training was
23 ceased May 29.
24 Q. And over the period of time between February and May, how
25 often did you see Mr. Moussaoui?
619
1 A. I didn't really see him every day, because he was out in the
2 school area either going to his flight training or, or attending
3 ground school, but I probably saw him at least a couple of times a
4 week.
5 Q. Would you recognize him if you saw him today?
6 A. Yes, I'm sure I would.
7 Q. Do you see him in the courtroom?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Can you point to the defendant, please?
10 A. He's right there (indicating).
11 Q. Can you describe what he's wearing?
12 A. He's wearing a green jumpsuit and a white cap.
13 MR. RASKIN: Your Honor, if the record would reflect the
14 identification of the defendant, please?
15 THE COURT: Any objection?
16 MR. TROCCOLI: No objection, Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: The record will so reflect.
18 BY MR. RASKIN:
19 Q. Are there any differences in the defendant's appearance today
20 from the time you saw him in 2001?
21 A. A little. He has more facial hair now than he did then.
22 Q. Now, you mentioned that your first contact with Mr. Moussaoui
23 was via e-mail.
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. And approximately when did you or the Airman Flight School
620
1 first receive an e-mail from Mr. Moussaoui?
2 A. I believe it's February 26, 2001.
3 Q. And --
4 A. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, that was September.
5 Q. September of 2000?
6 A. Of 2000.
7 Q. And did you correspond via e-mail on several occasions
8 between September of 2000 and the time Mr. Moussaoui ultimately
9 arrived at the school?
10 A. Yes. I believe there was four or five e-mails.
11 Q. And what was the nature of those communications? What did he
12 request of the school, and what information did you give to him?
13 A. The first e-mail was inquiring about our professional pilot
14 program, which is the commercial course, cost, duration, that type
15 of thing. So I would have e-mailed him our basic information pack
16 and about the visa and that type of thing and housing.
17 And then from then on, it was basically just follow-up
18 about the courses and the course cost and durations, again very
19 repetitive type of e-mails.
20 Q. Now, the information pack that you sent to Mr. Moussaoui, was
21 it for a particular course?
22 A. It was for our professional pilot program, which was the
23 private, the instrument rating in a single commercial to
24 multi-engine commercial flight instructor, and instrument flight
25 instructor.
621
1 Q. Now, you said that Mr. Moussaoui enrolled in the school in
2 February of 2001.
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. What were the circumstances of his arrival into Norman? In
5 other words, where did he stay, and when did you first meet him?
6 A. I had met him that next morning. He had arrived in Oklahoma
7 City, which I had somebody pick him up, and then he was taken to a
8 hotel. And I met him the next morning on February 26, I believe
9 it was, for the enrollment process.
10 Q. Did somebody from the Airman Flight School pick him up at the
11 airport?
12 A. Yes, they did. Normally we have -- we use Airport Express,
13 but Moussaoui's last e-mail was the morning that he was coming
14 that night, and so he asked me if I could pick him up at the
15 airport, and so I knew that I couldn't get an e-mail back to him,
16 so I'd asked somebody else to please pick him up at the airport
17 since he would be expecting somebody, which is not usually
18 customary.
19 Q. And you said you met with him the next day?
20 A. The next morning, yes.
21 Q. And was -- what was the nature of that meeting? What was the
22 purpose?
23 A. The purpose was to, to have him fill out the contract and put
24 all of his information into the database, collect the first
25 payment, get him assigned to an instructor and that type of thing.
622
1 Q. Is it fair to say that this was a typical meeting that a
2 student would have when they first arrive at the school?
3 A. Yes. That's what I did with everybody.
4 Q. And how long did the initial meeting with Mr. Moussaoui last?
5 A. Approximately two hours.
6 Q. What is typically the amount of time that that type of
7 preliminary or introductory interview takes?
8 A. Normally 15 to 20 minutes.
9 Q. Why was the interview with Mr. Moussaoui longer than the
10 typical interview?
11 A. Well, he was -- he was very concise about the length of time
12 that it might take to train him. He was very concerned about if
13 he failed a certain stage check that is required throughout the
14 training, how long he would have to be grounded before he could
15 take the next stage check.
16 We talked about money. He decided just to go ahead and
17 enroll in the private pilot course in the beginning, which is
18 $4,995, and then decide later on if he was continuing on to do his
19 commercial. I told him that he needed to go ahead and make the
20 full payment then of the $4,995, and he said that he didn't want
21 to make the full payment at that time, and he was -- wanted to do
22 it his way and only pay half of it.
23 And so we talked about that for a while, and I said,
24 "No, our policy is such that you need to pay the full payment,"
25 and he did not want to do that.
623
1 He said "No, we will do it my way, and I will pay half
2 the money."
3 So I finally agreed, "Okay, fine, I'm not going to win
4 this, so you can pay half today." So I asked him for the $2,500.
5 And he says: "Well, I can't do it now, either, because
6 I have to go to the bank and open up an account. I don't have any
7 money."
8 So this is probably about 45 minutes to an hour into the
9 process. So I finally settled down. We were joking and laughing
10 at that point, because I had, I had calmed myself down.
11 And at one point, I got up jokingly with him and put my
12 hands around his throat and acted like I was going to choke him
13 and said "You're driving me crazy." He kind of chuckled, and we
14 were laughing, and things settled down. And then we just
15 continued on through that point.
16 And finally still after another hour, I said, you know,
17 I've got to get this guy out of my office. And he asked if I
18 could take him to the bank. And there was no way I was going to
19 take him to the bank because of the duties I had to do. So I
20 walked around the school and found somebody else and begged
21 somebody, "Please take this man to the bank for me so I can
22 continue with what I'm supposed to be doing."
23 Q. Okay. Just going over a couple of the things you just
24 mentioned, first of all, you said that the defendant was concerned
25 with timing with respect to some of the courses. Was he more
624
1 specific about his concerns about timing?
2 A. Well, he never talked about a certain time frame, but it was
3 more of how long he may be grounded, you know, length of days or,
4 you know, because he wanted to get on with his courses and go on
5 and do whatever he was going to do with his life, and how long
6 will I be grounded? And what if I do this, and what if I do this,
7 and how long is it going to be? How long is it going to take me
8 to get my private pilot's license? He wanted to get it done as
9 quick as possible.
10 Q. And you also mentioned -- withdrawn.
11 You also discussed cost with Mr. Moussaoui. How much
12 was -- how much did Mr. Moussaoui ultimately pay for the training
13 he received at Airman Flight School?
14 A. $4,995.
15 Q. And what was -- what course did he take?
16 A. The private pilot course.
17 Q. How much would it have cost at that time to take the
18 commercial pilot course?
19 A. It was about 26,000, I believe, at that time for the entire
20 program.
21 Q. And do you remember the form of payment Mr. Moussaoui used?
22 A. The first payment of $2,500 was in cash, and he paid that
23 about four days after he had enrolled. And then he paid the final
24 balance the beginning of May by a check, another 2,495.
25 Q. Now, you mentioned that Mr. Moussaoui wanted to open a bank
625
1 account and you found somebody to take him to a bank?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Did an Airman employee ultimately take him to a bank?
4 A. Yes, they did.
5 Q. And what bank was that?
6 A. Arvest Bank.
7 Q. Do you know whether he opened an account there?
8 A. He did.
9 Q. Now, you said that Mr. Moussaoui did engage in a flight
10 program at Airman. How long did he train at Airman Flight School
11 on the planes there?
12 A. His last flight was on May 29, and that was after we had
13 grounded him.
14 Q. And you said the defendant was grounded. Can you explain how
15 that happened and why that happened?
16 A. Well, normally the entire curriculum for the private pilot
17 course is 40 hours. It doesn't mean that you'll finish in 40
18 hours, but that is required number of flight hours that you have
19 to have. Normally most students, average students will take
20 usually 10 to 15 hours to solo. He had had 57 hours at that time
21 and had not yet solo'd.
22 So we told him that he'd need to either cease his flight
23 training or pay more money. And then he said that he was going to
24 think about it and get back with us.
25 Q. And what was your last interaction with Mr. Moussaoui?
626
1 A. Pretty much about that time, I had discussed with the
2 director of operations on the money issues and grounding him. And
3 we had talked to him, and we even said that he could sit through
4 the instrument ground school while he was waiting, and from that
5 day, we never, we never saw him again.
6 Q. When you say "we," that's you or anybody else at Airman
7 Flight School?
8 A. That is correct.
9 MR. RASKIN: Your Honor, at this time, I'd like
10 Ms. Keene to look at a few exhibits, and I'd like to offer a few
11 more. I don't believe there's any objection to them, so I'm just
12 going to read the numbers into the record.
13 THE COURT: All right.
14 MR. RASKIN: OK-501, OK-8, OK-10, OK-11, OK-11.1 through
15 OK-11.4, OK-101, OK-510, 511, 512, 513. OK-102, OK-103, OK-108
16 through 174, and then OK-104 through 107.
17 THE COURT: Does the defense counsel have any objection
18 to any of these exhibits?
19 MR. TROCCOLI: No objection, Your Honor.
20 THE COURT: All right. Just to make absolutely sure,
21 501, and then we go to just No. 8, is that right?
22 MR. RASKIN: Yes, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: 10, 11, 11.1 through 11.4, 101, 510, 511,
24 512, 513, 102, 103, 108 through 174, and 104 through 107.
25 MR. RASKIN: That's correct.
627
1 THE COURT: All right, they're all in.
2 (Government's Exhibit Nos. OK-501, OK-8, OK-10, OK-11,
3 OK-11.1 through OK-11.4, OK-101, OK-510, OK-511, OK-512, OK-513,
4 OK-102, OK-103, OK-108 through OK-174, OK-104 through OK-107 were
5 received in evidence.)
6 MR. RASKIN: If we could bring 105 up on the screen,
7 please?
8 I'm sorry, I meant 501, OK-501. And if I didn't say it
9 that way before, we offer 501 now.
10 THE COURT: 501 was the first one, yeah.
11 MR. RASKIN: 501, yes.
12 THE COURT: 501.
13 BY MR. RASKIN:
14 Q. Ms. Keene, can you tell us what we're looking at here?
15 A. That is the front view of Airman Flight School.
16 Q. And that's the way it existed in 2001?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. And now if we can take a look at a representation of 512 and
19 513, what is this we're looking at here, Ms. Keene?
20 A. That's one of the e-mails that he had sent.
21 Q. And did you receive this e-mail?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. Can you just read for us the highlighted portions?
24 A. No, I can't read it. I can't see it.
25 THE COURT: Oh, I'm sorry. There's a screen right here.
628
1 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Now you tell me. That's what
2 I kept hitting.
3 THE COURT: You just keep to speak up, though. I'm
4 sorry, yeah.
5 THE WITNESS: Read the whole e-mail?
6 MR. RASKIN: Yes. Or just the -- are there highlighted
7 portions on your screen?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 BY MR. RASKIN:
10 Q. Just the highlighted portions, please.
11 A. "I intend to take the professional pilot course guaranty
12 ($21,999). Could you send me the detail how to come to you place
13 and name and add of some hotel to stay in the beginning."
14 Q. Thank you. And the next one?
15 A. "Finally I am coming to fly hopefully with you. My plan is
16 for tomorrow Friday the 23rd via Chicago Flight No. United 5723
17 from Chicago (coming from London Heathrow) arriving at 17:35 local
18 time. So I know that I give you short notice but it will be nice
19 if somebody will be receiving me. Mr. Zacarias (that my first
20 name because E is not secure)."
21 THE COURT: And that was 513 you just showed, right?
22 MR. RASKIN: Yes, it was, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 MR. RASKIN: Nothing further on direct.
25 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Troccoli?
629
1 CROSS EXAMINATION
2 MR. TROCCOLI: Thank you, Your Honor.
3 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Keene.
4 A. Hi, how are you?
5 Q. I just want to go over with you the enrollment process. You
6 mentioned that you found Mr. Moussaoui's enrollment process to be
7 much more lengthy than the typical student.
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. And that was because you found him to be an argumentative
10 individual?
11 A. Well, sometimes people are, and he just happened to be one of
12 those.
13 Q. One of these types of persons that likes to ask a lot of
14 questions?
15 A. Lots of questions, yeah.
16 Q. And isn't always satisfied with the answer you gave him?
17 A. Not always.
18 Q. And would ask the question again?
19 A. Sometimes, yes.
20 Q. And then you'd answer him again, and he may not be satisfied
21 with that answer?
22 A. Occasionally, yeah.
23 Q. And you'd answer him again, and this would go on and on for
24 what did you say, two hours?
25 A. Yeah. It was a lot of different information, but yeah.
630
1 Q. And it got so bad that you mentioned coming around the desk,
2 putting your hands around his throat?
3 A. Yeah, joking.
4 Q. And you also -- he also argued with you about the manner of
5 payment, correct?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. At your school, you -- a student would have to pay up front,
8 correct?
9 A. If they're doing one course, that's normally customary, yes.
10 Q. And he didn't want to pay up front?
11 A. No, he did not.
12 Q. He wanted to pay as you go?
13 A. Wanted to pay half, yeah.
14 Q. Pay half. And he argued with you about that?
15 A. A little bit, yeah.
16 Q. A lot?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. And, in fact, this is why you remember Mr. Moussaoui; it's
19 because this enrollment process took such a long time. That's, in
20 fact, why -- one of the reasons you remember him?
21 A. Right. I remember a lot of students, but yeah, he was one of
22 them I remembered.
23 Q. And you mentioned that after the, the enrollment process, you
24 had -- you got another student to take him to Arvest Bank to open
25 an account?
631
1 A. Yeah. She was an instructor.
2 Q. Was that Stephanie Comitas?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And that process at the bank also took a great deal of time,
5 correct?
6 A. That's what I understand, yes.
7 Q. Argued -- he argued with a teller at the bank as well?
8 A. That's what they told me, yeah. I wasn't there.
9 Q. Deposited a large amount of cash?
10 A. I wasn't there, so I don't know that.
11 MR. RASKIN: Objection.
12 THE COURT: Sustained. That's hearsay.
13 BY MR. TROCCOLI:
14 Q. Now, Ms. Keene, you mentioned that when Mr. Moussaoui
15 registered for the class, he registered for a private pilot's
16 license, to take that instruction, correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. A commercial pilot's license?
19 A. Well, when he enrolled, he only wanted to sign up at that
20 time for the private pilot, and that was all to make sure that
21 he'd want to continue after that.
22 Q. But I thought you said on direct that at some point, he
23 inquired about a commercial private pilot's license, multi-engine
24 and instrument rating?
25 A. Yes, he inquired about it, but he did not sign up for that
632
1 course.
2 Q. Did he ever obtain a private pilot's license?
3 A. No, he did not.
4 Q. Did he ever obtain a commercial pilot's license?
5 A. No, he did not.
6 Q. Did he ever obtain a multi-engine rating?
7 A. No, he did not.
8 Q. Or instrument rating?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And you mentioned that he was grounded. Why was he grounded?
11 A. Because he had exalted all of his money. The course
12 allowance is 40 hours, roughly, and he had 57 hours and hadn't
13 solo'd. So we requested that he either drop out of the course or
14 pay more money, and we'd continue to fly with him.
15 Q. So he was a terrible pilot?
16 A. Well, he wasn't terrible, but sometimes we have problems with
17 our international students, and sometimes it is because of the
18 language barrier, and that could have been part of it, but having
19 57 hours and hadn't solo'd, he wasn't the best pilot, but that's
20 not the first time we've seen it.
21 Q. Had you had any other students that took longer than him and
22 hadn't yet solo'd?
23 A. I remember one guy from Kenya that he did take longer than
24 that, yes. He had about 80 hours and hadn't solo'd.
25 Q. And did he get his private pilot's license?
633
1 A. Eventually.
2 Q. So Mr. Moussaoui is the second longest?
3 A. Well, I've worked there a lot of times -- a number of years.
4 I've had a lot of good and bad pilots, so I cannot say that he was
5 the second worst pilot. No, I can't honestly say that.
6 Q. But your recollection is that he had 57 and then the next
7 highest was in the 80s?
8 A. Well, that's just two that stick out. There could have been
9 more.
10 Q. And what you understood was that he couldn't grasp the
11 necessary piloting skills?
12 A. Well, that could have been part of it, because he did not
13 finish, but, then again, it could have been a language barrier
14 could have been part of it as well, because a lot of our
15 international students did have a problem with that.
16 Q. You mentioned --
17 A. He would have eventually got it more than likely. Most
18 people do eventually. It just depends on how much time and effort
19 they want to put into it.
20 Q. What was the typical number of hours that a student would
21 solo?
22 A. Normally about 15 to 20 is about the average. Some take
23 longer, but 57 is a little excessive.
24 MR. TROCCOLI: Your Honor, I would ask, if possible, if
25 the government could put up, please, Government Exhibit OK-116.
634
1 BY MR. TROCCOLI:
2 Q. Ms. Keene, are you able to see that?
3 A. Yes, I am. Thank you.
4 Q. Are you familiar with this document?
5 A. Yes, I am.
6 Q. In fact, the government has introduced into evidence by my
7 count approximately 60 of these invoices. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes, I'm sure that's correct.
9 Q. And that constitutes Mr. Moussaoui's file that you turned
10 over to the FBI in part?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. And these invoices run from March 5, 2001, which is this
13 one -- correct?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. -- all the way to May 29, 2001, which is the last one?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. And that's the day that you say he was grounded?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. And what is the purpose of these invoices, please?
20 A. We're a Pro 141 school, which is recognized by the FAA, so
21 it's required that we keep records, so these are each invoice --
22 every time a student flies, we have to fill out an invoice to
23 comply with the FAA records.
24 Q. Are you able to explain to the jury, please, the
25 categories -- first, explain this category here, "flight lessons
635
1 worked on," if you could.
2 A. We have a syllabus that we have to follow, so each lesson
3 has, has a flight lesson with it.
4 Q. How many flight lessons are there?
5 A. Well, there's 40 hours required, but it doesn't actually
6 break it down per hour, but I would still say roughly 40 lessons,
7 plus ground school as well.
8 Q. The invoices list up to flight 15. Does that sound that
9 there are -- sound right that there are 15 lesson plans, in
10 essence?
11 A. Well, in a sense, but they can also not pass that lesson and
12 have to repeat it as well. That explains the 57 hours and only
13 lesson 15. He might have had to repeat something, or sometimes
14 lessons will just take longer.
15 Q. And then you'd have to go back and do parts over again?
16 A. Right. And that was pretty customary that that happened with
17 most students.
18 Q. And then on this part of the exhibit, this lists the
19 instructor?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. And can you explain to the jury what the relationship is
22 between the instructors at the school and the school itself? Do
23 the -- are the instructors employees of the school, or are they
24 independent contractors?
25 A. No, they're employees of the school.
636
1 Q. They're employees of the school?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And, and can you tell the jury how many -- let me ask you
4 this: Is Mr. Nazir a pilot?
5 A. Yes, he is.
6 Q. And this invoice reflects Mr. Nazir's instruction to
7 Mr. Moussaoui on March 5?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. And this is a way that Mr. Nazir can get paid?
10 A. That is also correct.
11 Q. Is that correct? And that Mr. Moussaoui can get billed?
12 A. Yeah. We had set fees for our courses, so he wouldn't
13 actually be billed for each course because we had the set fee of
14 the 4,995.
15 Q. Now, can you tell the jury how many flight instructors
16 Mr. Moussaoui had?
17 A. He had four different ones.
18 Q. That was Mr. Nazir?
19 A. He was one, yes.
20 Q. One of them? He was the predominant instructor?
21 A. Yes, he was.
22 Q. Was there also somebody named Sumar?
23 A. Yes, there was.
24 Q. And Bailey?
25 A. And who?
637
1 Q. Bailey, B-a-i-l --
2 A. Bailey, yes.
3 Q. Bailey, is that correct?
4 A. Um-hum.
5 THE COURT: You have to say yes or no. Yes?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
7 BY MR. TROCCOLI:
8 Q. And then Cochran?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And then lastly a Mr. U-y-a-r-l-i?
11 A. That is correct, yes.
12 Q. That's five?
13 A. I guess it was five, yeah.
14 Q. Can you tell the jury why he had five pilot instructors?
15 A. It could have been because a certain instructor was sick or
16 had too many, too many students. And sometimes that does happen
17 quite frequently that a student will have more than one
18 instructor.
19 Q. Mr. Moussaoui's case was a little bit more complicated,
20 though, right? Some of the instructors didn't want to fly with
21 him after a while?
22 A. Well, no, I don't think that was the case. I think that was
23 just kind of customary that they did switch around to give
24 different techniques. That really did happen quite a bit
25 sometimes with students that was good or even not so good just to
638
1 get a better viewpoint on what's going on.
2 Q. Isn't it true that Mr. Moussaoui and Mr. Nazir -- at some
3 point Mr. Nazir and Mr. Moussaoui decided that it wouldn't be good
4 for them to continue working together?
5 A. Well, I really wasn't that involved in that part of the deal.
6 I was more on the admissions side. So what the flight instructors
7 worked out between them I really was not involved in, so I can't
8 honestly answer that question.
9 Q. Ms. Keene, let me ask you -- let me direct your attention to
10 this part of the invoice -- actually, let me make it a little bit
11 larger. These categories starting with the first one here, what
12 is dual?
13 A. Dual is a dual instruction flight, means he was with his
14 instructor and it was not a solo flight.
15 Q. With an instructor, not a solo flight?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Now it says there on this exhibit .9. Does that mean he
18 spent .9 hours in the air with an instructor?
19 A. That is correct, yes.
20 Q. Now, the next category is solo. What does that mean?
21 A. Solo means if it was a solo flight, it would be logged the
22 same way, and it would be a .1 or whatever it would be, but this
23 was not a solo flight. That's why it says zero.
24 Q. All right. And the next one is PIC?
25 A. PIC is Pilot in Command.
639
1 Q. Pilot in Command?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what does that mean?
4 A. Basically solo as well.
5 Q. Solo as well. It means the person was in command of the
6 aircraft?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And the next category, X/C dual?
9 A. That's a cross-country dual flight.
10 Q. Cross-country -- and what is a cross-country flight?
11 A. A cross-country flight has to be 50 nautical miles more, and
12 there are some cross-country flights that is required in the
13 private pilot course.
14 Q. And cross-country dual means cross-country flight with an
15 instructor?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, the one right next to it looks like cross-country solo?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. Which would be cross-country by yourself?
20 A. Absolutely, yes.
21 Q. And the next category is night? Can I assume that means
22 night flying?
23 A. Yeah. There is three hours of night required.
24 Q. Three hours required by who?
25 A. By the FAA.
640
1 Q. By the FAA, all right.
2 CPLEX, what does that mean?
3 A. It means a complex. It would have been a complex airplane,
4 which he was flying in a Cessna 152, which is not a complex
5 airplane. So this would be for all categories of our airplanes
6 that we have. Complex means over 200 horsepower and could be
7 retractable gear as well.
8 Q. So the Cessna is the simplest aircraft for a student to
9 practice on?
10 A. That's the primary trainer. A primary student doesn't
11 usually fly in a complex airplane.
12 Q. And the next category, INST?
13 A. That means instrument, when they're working on their
14 instrument rating, and there's three hours of instrument time also
15 required on the private pilot course.
16 Q. All right. And SIM?
17 A. Simulator training would be involved in the instrument course
18 and not the private pilot course. It's simulator training, a
19 simulator device.
20 Q. And let me go to the last one, these last two are multi and
21 ground?
22 A. Multi would be multi-engine flight training and ground would
23 be ground school hours.
24 Q. Multi would be multi-engine, did you say?
25 A. Um-hum.
641
1 Q. So that would be something more sophisticated than a complex
2 aircraft?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. And what is ground instruction?
5 A. And there is also 39 hours -- 35 hours of ground school
6 required by the FAA for the private pilot course.
7 Q. Is ground instruction different from classroom instruction?
8 A. No. It's the same.
9 Q. It's the same thing.
10 Now, of these categories, you mentioned that night is a
11 requirement of the FAA in order to get a private pilot's license?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. Is solo also required to get a private pilot's license?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. And is dual? You have to fly with an instructor for a
16 certain number of hours?
17 A. I would certainly hope so, yes.
18 Q. Okay. That's the way you would start, presumably.
19 Cross-country dual, that's also required by the FAA?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. And cross-country solo presumably would also be required by
22 the FAA?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, can you point to where in the invoices it reflects that
25 Mr. Moussaoui logged any solo hours?
642
1 A. He never did solo.
2 Q. Can you indicate -- so the answer is none?
3 A. That is correct, yes.
4 Q. Can you indicate where in the invoices it would reflect that
5 Mr. Moussaoui logged any cross-country or cross-country solo or
6 cross-country dual hours?
7 A. Well, these are individual invoices. If he actually did, it
8 could be on another invoice. These are individual invoices here,
9 so if he did not do any of those that particular day, it would not
10 reflect on that invoice.
11 Q. I'm speaking about the invoices that reflect Mr. Moussaoui's
12 entire file that were introduced into evidence by the government.
13 Are there any invoices that reflect --
14 MR. RASKIN: Your Honor, all the invoices are in
15 evidence. And if Mr. Troccoli would show the witness what he's
16 talking about, I'm sure she would --
17 THE COURT: We're not going to take the jury's time to
18 have this witness look through every invoice.
19 MR. TROCCOLI: I was trying to avoid that, Your Honor,
20 by just asking that.
21 THE COURT: You can argue that from the evidence to the
22 jury down the road, but I think you should move this along.
23 MR. TROCCOLI: Thank you, Your Honor.
24 Q. Do you know if any of the invoices reflect that Mr. Moussaoui
25 had any nighttime flying?
643
1 A. I would not know unless I saw them, because I don't know what
2 point of the phase of the training they were doing.
3 Q. Is it safe to say, Ms. Keene, that the -- that these
4 categories are listed in ascending order of difficulty; that is, a
5 student should expect to have more hours in the dual category and
6 then have some hours in the solo and some hours in the
7 cross-country dual and cross-country solo? That, in other words,
8 they work their way up, up the line?
9 A. Well, not necessarily. It's not reflected in that order.
10 That's just the way the form was made up. It's not really in the
11 form of difficulty, because this just meets every single
12 requirement, like he wasn't signed up for the multi-engine course,
13 but multi is listed on there, so it really has nothing to even do
14 with this course.
15 MR. TROCCOLI: Your Honor, I'd like to show the witness,
16 please, Government Exhibit OK-152, please.
17 I'm sorry, Your Honor, I misspoke. 158, please.
18 THE COURT: 150?
19 MR. TROCCOLI: 158, OK-158.
20 Q. Now, Ms. Keene, can you see Government Exhibit OK-158?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And this reflects an invoice of May 1, 2001; is that correct?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. Now, this also reflects that on that day, Mr. Moussaoui
25 worked on Flight 15, is that correct, flight lesson plan 15? Is
644
1 that what that would mean?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, if you could, without necessarily having to put them on
4 the screen, I'd like you to take a look at the invoices starting
5 at OK-162 to 174.
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. Now, those reflect -- and maybe we can put up Government
8 Exhibit 162, please, OK-162.
9 Starting on May 7, it indicates now that he's working
10 now on something called flight. I assume that means flight
11 review?
12 A. Yes, that's what that means.
13 Q. Now, why is it that he's doing flight review after, after he
14 is on a previous invoice doing flight lesson plan 15?
15 A. A flight review probably just means it's that part of the
16 training, maybe reviewing the flight from the last time. I can't
17 exactly say why it says that. I mean --
18 Q. You mentioned -- you testified earlier that occasionally
19 students have to go back and review previous instruction because
20 they were unable to, to accomplish or complete the task assigned?
21 A. They usually won't continue on with that lesson because they
22 can't complete that lesson until they pass that lesson
23 satisfactory, so usually the next lesson would consist of
24 basically what the previous lesson was.
25 Q. And that could include flight review?
645
1 A. Absolutely, yes.
2 MR. TROCCOLI: Thank you, Gerard. You can take that
3 down.
4 Ms. Keene, after -- at some point in the summer of 2001,
5 you were interviewed by the FBI?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. And it was concerning Mr. Moussaoui?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. And you told them everything you knew about him?
10 A. Yeah. They basically wouldn't say anything to us. They just
11 wanted all of his records. And we even asked, "Well, what's
12 happened?"
13 They said: "Well, you know, we can't tell you, but we
14 want all of his records."
15 So I made photocopies of all of the records that you're
16 seeing here.
17 Q. So all the records that have been introduced, you gave to the
18 FBI in the summer of 2001?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you told them pretty much what you've testified today
21 about what you knew about Mr. Moussaoui?
22 A. Well, they didn't really ask about his behaviors in the
23 airplane or if he was a good or a bad pilot. They just basically
24 asked that we pull all his records.
25 Q. I mean, you told them that he was a very detail-oriented
646
1 person?
2 A. No, I didn't say that because they didn't ask and didn't
3 care. They just wanted the records.
4 Q. And you gave him -- you gave the FBI his e-mail address? Do
5 you recall doing that?
6 A. I'm sure I probably did. I've talked to a lot of agents, so
7 I can't remember what exactly happened on that first time, but --
8 Q. Would it help to look at the FBI's report of the interview of
9 you? Would that refresh your recollection?
10 A. Probably would.
11 MR. TROCCOLI: Your Honor, I would ask to show the --
12 Ms. Keene, please, Defendant's Exhibit 335.
13 THE COURT: Well, do we have a copy of it here?
14 Mr. Raskin, do you need to see that, or do you have a
15 copy?
16 MR. RASKIN: I have a copy.
17 THE COURT: Now, the protocol here is that both sides
18 are supposed to have all their exhibits filed with the Court.
19 That was not in our box, so I want to make sure that defense
20 exhibits, that we have a complete set.
21 MR. TROCCOLI: We don't intend on introducing it into
22 evidence, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: But still it slows things down when there's
24 a reference made to the exhibit and we can't find it, all right?
25 MR. TROCCOLI: Yes, Your Honor.
647
1 Q. Are you done reading the document?
2 A. Oh, yes.
3 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about what you told the FBI
4 it looks like on August 23, 2001?
5 A. Yes, I believe it does, yes.
6 Q. All right. And you told the FBI that what you knew about
7 Moussaoui included that he was very detail-oriented, correct?
8 A. Correct. That's what it says here.
9 Q. He asked lots of questions?
10 A. That is true.
11 Q. To the point of aggravating you, correct? That's what you
12 told them?
13 A. Yes. At some point, yes.
14 Q. And you also gave the FBI his e-mail address, correct?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. And the FBI e-mail address -- the e-mail address that you
17 gave the FBI on August 23 was Zuluman TangoTango
18 pilotz123@hotmail.com, correct?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. Thank you. Ms. Keene, do you recall the FBI ever visiting
21 Airman Flight School prior to 9/11 concerning Muslim men taking
22 flight training lessons?
23 A. Actually, I believe there was something a couple of years
24 prior about somebody else that we had supposedly trained and
25 wanted records for that student, which we didn't have any records
648
1 because they were very old records, and it was a Muslim person
2 that we, like I said, supposedly trained and had done something
3 bad. I don't really know what the gist of that was, but they have
4 visited us before.
5 Q. This was prior to 9/11?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. 2001?
8 A. A few years prior.
9 MR. TROCCOLI: Your Honor, may I have a moment, please?
10 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
11 BY MR. TROCCOLI:
12 Q. Ms. Keene, do you recall the FBI agent who spoke with you
13 about that other matter?
14 A. I don't. It was several years ago. I don't. It was a very
15 brief conversation.
16 Q. Was it the same agent perhaps that interviewed you on the
17 defendant's exhibit that's in front of you now?
18 A. I don't believe so, but I can't honestly say.
19 MR. TROCCOLI: Thank you.
20 No further questions.
21 THE COURT: Any redirect?
22 MR. RASKIN: Very briefly, Your Honor. It's actually a
23 matter that I forgot to cover on direct, but it will be very
24 brief.
25 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
649
1 BY MR. RASKIN:
2 Q. Ms. Keene, after -- are you familiar with the name Mohamed
3 Atta?
4 A. Yes, I am.
5 Q. How are you familiar with that name other than through the
6 media?
7 A. He had contacted the school April of 2000 requesting
8 information about flight training.
9 Q. How did Mohamed Atta contact the school, and how do you know
10 it was Mohamed Atta?
11 A. It was via e-mail. And I didn't really -- you know, there's
12 a lot of people that contact the school. And after September 11,
13 the FBI interviewed me and told me that I had given Mohamed Atta a
14 tour in our school. And at that time, I looked in our contact
15 database and saw his name in there that I had sent him
16 information. Otherwise, I would never have remembered or even
17 thought to look.
18 Q. Do you remember giving him a tour?
19 A. No, I don't.
20 Q. Do you remember giving Marwan al-Shehhi a tour?
21 A. No. And I didn't know I did until the FBI told me that I
22 did.
23 Q. And when you checked the records, when was it that the school
24 was contacted by Mohamed Atta?
25 A. I believe it was April of 2000.
650
1 Q. And what did the school send Atta in response?
2 A. Our basic information pack, just like I would have sent to
3 Mr. Moussaoui as well, basic material about the commercial pilot
4 course.
5 MR. RASKIN: Thank you. Nothing further, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Any recross?
7 MR. TROCCOLI: Thank you, Your Honor.
8 RECROSS EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. TROCCOLI:
10 Q. Ms. Keene, the testimony you just gave about Mr. Atta and
11 Mr. Al-Shehhi, your -- comes from what the FBI informed you
12 occurred?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. You have no present recollection of them actually being at
15 the school?
16 A. No. After 9/11 and his picture was everywhere, he's got a
17 very distinctive face, and then I do remember seeing him at the
18 school. I don't recall anything in specific about the, about the
19 tour, but just remembered his face.
20 Q. The -- at some point, your computer system crashed; is that
21 correct, or you had -- one of the reasons you had no records to
22 look upon is because you had trouble with your computer system?
23 A. Well, it didn't crash, but we changed systems, so all of our
24 old records were gone.
25 MR. TROCCOLI: Thank you.
651
1 THE COURT: Anything further for this witness?
2 MR. RASKIN: No, Your Honor.
3 THE COURT: And does anybody expect to call her again?
4 MR. RASKIN: No.
5 THE COURT: All right. Then, ma'am, you're excused as a
6 witness. That means you're free to leave at this time. Thank
7 you. Just make sure you don't discuss your testimony with any
8 witness who has not yet testified.
9 (Witness excused.)
10 THE COURT: All right. Your next witness?
11 MR. RASKIN: Your Honor, before we call our next
12 witness, we'd just like to publish OK-11 for the jury.
13 THE COURT: Any objection, counsel?
14 MR. TROCCOLI: No, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 MR. RASKIN: OK-11 is a receipt for the Sooner Hotel &
17 Suites dated February 28, 2001, for Zacarias Moussaoui.
18 THE COURT: All right, that exhibit is already in
19 evidence. The jury has now seen it.
20 Mr. Spencer?
21 MR. SPENCER: Thank you very much, Your Honor. The
22 United States calls Chris Turner, Your Honor.
23 CHRIS TURNER, GOVERNMENT'S WITNESS, AFFIRMED
24 DIRECT EXAMINATION
25 BY MR. SPENCER:
652
1 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. In a loud, clear voice, can you tell the jury your name,
4 please?
5 A. Chris Turner.
6 Q. Can you spell your last name for the court reporter, please?
7 A. T-u-r-n-e-r.
8 Q. How old are you, sir?
9 A. 30.
10 Q. And in what city do you live?
11 A. Houston.
12 Q. What do you do for a living?
13 A. I'm an outside salesman and flight instructor.
14 Q. Was there a time that you attended the Airman Flight School
15 in Norman, Oklahoma?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. And what time was that? Can you give us the date you started
18 there and the dated you ended at Airmans?
19 A. I started March 6, 2001, to July 2, 2001.
20 Q. Is that where you got your private pilot's license, or did
21 you get other ratings and licenses there?
22 A. I got other ratings and licenses there.
23 Q. Where did you get your private pilot's license?
24 A. I got my private pilot's license in Laporte, Texas, close to
25 Houston.
653
1 Q. So what was it that you got at the Airman Flight School in
2 Norman, Oklahoma?
3 A. I got my instrument rating, my commercial pilot's license, my
4 instrument instructor license, and my CFI license.
5 Q. And CFI is what?
6 A. Certified flight instructor.
7 Q. Can you lean in just a little bit toward that microphone,
8 please?
9 A. Sure.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, at Airman Flight School, Mr. Turner, did you
11 have contact with a man named Zacarias Moussaoui?
12 A. Directly, no. I was --
13 Q. Were you aware of a man named Zacarias Moussaoui?
14 A. No.
15 Q. All right. Did you ever hear Zacarias Moussaoui say anything
16 while you were at Airman Flight School?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Could you tell the jury what that was, please?
19 A. It was in a classroom, and discussion with other students was
20 what you were going to do when you get out of flight school,
21 getting a job, where are you going to go to work, things like
22 that.
23 Q. Let me stop you for one second. Is that a common theme of
24 discussion among students at flight school, or is that something
25 that's kind of rare?
654
1 A. No, it's absolutely common.
2 Q. All right.
3 A. I mean, everybody discussed how long are you going to be
4 here? When are you going to get out? Do you have a job when you
5 get out of here? I mean, it's extremely common, yeah.
6 Q. All right. So go ahead and tell the jury, please, what you
7 overheard.
8 A. I was sitting in the classroom doing some studying, and the
9 conversation came up where people were going to be working, and he
10 was talking about he had a Lear Jet job already lined up in
11 Chicago after the training was finished.
12 Q. And what was your reaction to that? What did you think?
13 A. I kind of thought it might be a little premature to have --
14 to be flying a jet like that with just getting in -- just being in
15 a private pilot's license stage. I kind of thought it was a
16 little, little premature, but I was kind of excited.
17 Q. All right. That's all I have, Your Honor. Thank you.
18 THE COURT: Mr. Zerkin?
19 MR. ZERKIN: Thank you, Your Honor.
20 CROSS EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. ZERKIN:
22 Q. Good afternoon.
23 A. Good afternoon.
24 Q. I'm Jerry Zerkin. I'm one of the attorneys for
25 Mr. Moussaoui.
655
1 The -- is that the only discussion you overheard with
2 Mr. Moussaoui?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Were you in classes with him?
5 A. Not directly. I was just actually studying after my class
6 had finished and another class was coming in.
7 Q. You weren't normally there on the same day he was there?
8 A. No. No, sir.
9 Q. And how did you know his name?
10 A. Other students.
11 Q. You asked other students who is that person that's having
12 that conversation?
13 A. No. It just was general conversation. People were talking.
14 I mean, I wasn't directly in the mix of the conversation.
15 Q. And they were calling him by his full name?
16 A. They never said his full name, no, sir, they did not.
17 Q. What did they say?
18 A. Everybody kind of went by nicknames in flight school.
19 Q. And what was his?
20 A. Zac.
21 Q. Zac. And you heard, on that occasion, you heard those
22 students walking by referring to him as Zac?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. How did you get to Zacarias Moussaoui from that?
25 A. Actually, it wasn't until after I had already graduated and
656
1 came back to Houston and recognized him on TV, actually.
2 Q. So that was after September 11?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. 2001?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And -- so you did it on recognition; is that right?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And did -- what did Mr. Moussaoui sound like when you heard
9 him?
10 A. Confident, pretty matter of fact, you know, I've got a Lear
11 Jet job waiting. I mean, there wasn't any, anything particular.
12 Q. Okay. And the only reason that that caught your attention at
13 all was just that it was unusual for someone who was still in
14 flight school to have a job like that lined up; is that right?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Did he have an accent?
17 A. Man, that was five years ago. I'm assuming there was a lot
18 of students there that were from other countries. I mean, I have
19 an accent.
20 Q. Well, what, what accent did you think you had?
21 A. Well, I've got a Texas accent for sure.
22 Q. All right.
23 THE COURT: That's pretty foreign around here.
24 (Laughter)
25 BY MR. ZERKIN:
657
1 Q. Well, not as foreign as a French accent. Did you hear him
2 with a French accent?
3 A. To be honest with you, I was not paying attention for
4 specifics. I was actually in the middle of studying, like I
5 mentioned. It was just a conversation piece that I heard, that I
6 overheard that sounded kind of odd.
7 Q. And in fact, you told -- you were interviewed by the FBI in
8 April of 2002. Do you remember that?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. And do you remember telling them that he didn't have an
11 accent?
12 A. No, I can't recall that.
13 Q. Did you remember telling them anything about his dress?
14 A. He was very well dressed, so I thought. He was a little
15 dressed up. I mean, you know, most of the kids there, myself
16 included, you know, we're on an extremely tight budget going into
17 a flight school like that. So, I mean, he was put together.
18 Q. Well, what was he wearing?
19 A. Specifically, I couldn't tell you. He was well-dressed. It
20 was like a preppy dress.
21 Q. Preppy dress?
22 A. Yeah, you know.
23 Q. Wearing a sports jacket?
24 A. No. It was like a polo shirt and, you know, some blue jeans
25 or something. Like I said, we were all at a table. I was sitting
658
1 down studying, and --
2 Q. Okay. And was the -- would you say that he was loud?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Would you say that he was opinionated from what you
5 overheard?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Would you say that he was flamboyant from what you overheard?
8 A. The attitude of which -- of having a Lear Jet job in that
9 particular stage of flight training, sure.
10 Q. Do you remember in April 2002, April 8 specifically in the
11 interview with the FBI, telling them all of those things about
12 Mr. Moussaoui, that he was loud, that he was flamboyant, and he
13 was opinionated?
14 A. Specifically, I can't recall.
15 Q. Okay. Could I show the witness this document, please?
16 It's -- let me show you this report of your interview with the FBI
17 on April 8 of 2002. And down in the middle of the page, if you
18 would.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. Do you see where it references your -- a statement that he
21 was loud, flamboyant?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. And does that refresh your recollection as to what you told
24 the FBI at the time?
25 A. Sure. I mean, you know, like I mentioned before, there was a
659
1 lot of students there that were from foreign countries. Some
2 things stood out to me; others did not. You know, what I remember
3 sitting in that classroom specifically about the conversation is
4 what, is what I remember, what he wore, his demeanor, things like
5 that. I did not have any direct association with. This is just
6 what I remembered.
7 Q. Do you remember, now that you've looked at that, do you
8 remember thinking those things about Mr. Moussaoui's demeanor,
9 loud, flamboyant?
10 A. Yeah, sure.
11 Q. You do remember that?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Okay. Mr. Wood, could I see the document again for one
14 moment, please.
15 I'm sorry.
16 If you could look at the document again, and right about
17 the same place, do you see any reference to how you described
18 Mr. Moussaoui's accent or lack thereof? Right about in the
19 same -- right near where the other part was.
20 A. Right. It says un-American-sounding name.
21 Q. Do you see where it references "no noticeable accent"?
22 A. Right, okay.
23 Q. Does that refresh your recollection that you told the FBI
24 that?
25 A. Right. Okay.
660
1 Q. And was that your opinion of how you heard Mr. Moussaoui
2 sound at the time you heard him at the Airman Flight School, that
3 he had no noticeable accent?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Now, does that mean by Texas or Oklahoma standards, he had no
6 noticeable accent; is that right?
7 A. Correct. There wasn't anything.
8 Q. But you didn't hear any sign of a French accent, you didn't
9 hear any sign of a British accent, didn't -- any sign of a Middle
10 Eastern accent; is that right?
11 A. No, sir.
12 MR. ZERKIN: Okay. Thank you. If you could give me the
13 document back.
14 No further questions, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Any redirect?
16 MR. SPENCER: No, thank you, Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Turner, then I assume you're
18 being excused as a witness. You may not discuss your testimony or
19 anything you've seen or heard in court with any witness who has
20 not yet testified. Thank you. You're free to go.
21 (Witness excused.)
22 MR. SPENCER: Thank you, Your Honor. Pablo Hernandez,
23 Jr.
24 PABLO HERNANDEZ, JR., GOVERNMENT'S WITNESS, AFFIRMED
25 DIRECT EXAMINATION
661
1 BY MR. SPENCER:
2 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Can you please tell the jury in a loud,
3 clear voice what your name is?
4 A. My name is Pablo Hernandez, Jr.
5 Q. And can you spell your last name for the court reporter,
6 please?
7 A. H-e-r-n-a-n-d-e-z.
8 Q. How old are you, sir?
9 A. I'm 29.
10 Q. And what do you do for a living?
11 A. I'm a flight instructor.
12 Q. Are you, in addition, recently out of the Armed Services?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. What branch?
15 A. United States Marine Corps.
16 Q. Was there a time when you attended the Airman Flight School
17 in Norman, Oklahoma?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When?
20 A. 2001, sir.
21 Q. Do you remember what month you started in and what month you
22 ended at the Airman Flight School?
23 A. I can't remember when I started, but November of 2001 was
24 when I went home.
25 Q. And do you remember for how long you were at Airman?
662
1 A. Like nine months.
2 Q. All right. So you started sometime early in the year of 2001
3 and ended in November?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And how was it you came to attend the Airman Flight School?
6 A. Well, I went to, to a college in New York that advertises
7 Airman, and it was pretty much the cheapest school in the country,
8 so --
9 Q. And what course of study did you take at the Airman Flight
10 School?
11 A. It was a professional pilot course.
12 Q. Did you get a -- did you get a private pilot license?
13 A. Yes, sir, my private pilot and my instrument rating.
14 Q. All right. When you were at Airman Flight School, did you
15 come into contact with a man named Zacarias Moussaoui?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. Tell the jury, please, how much contact you had with
18 Mr. Moussaoui.
19 A. I had about four or five conversations.
20 Q. Were you in class with him at all?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you ever sit next to him?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right. And what time of year was it when you first came
25 into contact with Mr. Moussaoui?
663
1 A. It was, it was, it was warm out, so I imagine it was
2 summertime.
3 Q. Were you in ground school with Mr. Moussaoui?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is that where you sat next to him?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you remember how he acted in ground school?
8 A. Not really, no.
9 Q. All right. He didn't call attention to himself in ground
10 school?
11 A. Not that I know, no.
12 Q. How many students in a class at ground school at Airman
13 Flight School?
14 A. 25 to 15.
15 Q. Did you speak to Mr. Moussaoui?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And where was it that you spoke to him?
18 A. On school property during the break.
19 Q. You never socialized with him outside of school?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Just conversation while you were at the school?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And how many times total do you think you had a one-on-one
24 conversation with Mr. Moussaoui?
25 A. Four. Four or five times.
664
1 Q. And you mentioned once talking to him outside at a break?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what was that conversation about, please?
4 A. It was just talk, you know, what his name was, where he was
5 from.
6 Q. What did he tell you about that?
7 A. He told me he was from Morocco and he lived in France for a
8 little while and he was, he was living in England.
9 Q. What did you call him when you had these conversations and
10 had interchanges with him at Airman Flight School?
11 A. Excuse me?
12 Q. What name did you call him by?
13 A. Zacarias.
14 Q. Did you ever have a conversation with him about flying large
15 or commercial aircraft?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you tell the jury how that went, please?
18 A. He asked me -- well, I asked him, you know, what was his
19 intentions, you know, what was he doing here? And he told me he
20 worked for a rich family in England, and he wanted to learn how to
21 fly a big plane, because they bought one.
22 And I kind of explained -- he was asking me whether I
23 knew where, you know, he can learn how to fly a big plane. And I
24 told him, you know, it just doesn't work like that in the states.
25 You would have to, you know, go up the totem pole and learn how to
665
1 fly smaller planes and then work his way up.
2 Q. And did you tell him that it would take a long time to do
3 that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what, if anything, did you tell him about how much that
6 might cost?
7 A. I just told him it would be a lot of money.
8 Q. And what was his response to that?
9 A. He, he really didn't say much. He just absorbed the
10 information, I guess.
11 Q. Now, is it fair to say that a common topic of conversation
12 among students at flight school is what job, what you're going to
13 do after flight school?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And what, if anything, did Mr. Moussaoui tell you about what
16 he was going to do after Airman Flight School?
17 A. I don't, I don't think we had that conversation. I just --
18 he just told me that he was going to fly for a rich family in
19 England.
20 Q. Did you ever ask him about this family in England?
21 A. Well, I tried to, but he, he told me I asked too many
22 questions, and I chuckled.
23 Q. Did you ever ask him what he did for a living?
24 A. He told me he was a businessman.
25 Q. And what did you say in response?
666
1 A. What type of business is he into? And that's when he, you
2 know, he told me I asked too many questions.
3 Q. When he told you that he thought you asked too many
4 questions, was it in a friendly manner, or was it threatening?
5 What was that like, that exchange?
6 A. It was kind of friendly, but, you know, it was enough to get
7 me to stop.
8 Q. And is that what you did? You stopped asking follow-up
9 questions?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you ever get into an argument with him?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did he stand out in any manner at Airman Flight School?
14 A. No, not really.
15 Q. Do you know what religion he practices -- practiced at the
16 time?
17 A. No.
18 MR. SPENCER: That's all I have, Your Honor. Thank you.
19 THE COURT: All right. Cross?
20 MR. TROCCOLI: Thank you, Your Honor.
21 CROSS EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. TROCCOLI:
23 Q. Mr. Hernandez, it was well known at the school, however, that
24 Mr. Moussaoui was not a very good pilot, was he?
25 A. I don't know.
667
1 Q. Do you recall saying that to the FBI when you were
2 interviewed back in April of 2002?
3 A. Well, that was a rumor around, that he wasn't good stick.
4 Q. That he was not a what?
5 A. That he wasn't good stick. I mean, I never, I never flew
6 with him, so I can't say that.
7 Q. But what you heard around the school was that he couldn't
8 fly?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. That he had never solo'd?
11 A. I don't know that.
12 Q. Do you remember also telling the FBI that Mr. Moussaoui
13 frequently complained to his fellow students?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And that he complained to his instructors because he wanted
16 to have -- he was, he was concerned because they were grounding
17 him?
18 A. Oh, everyone at Airman Flight School complained to their
19 instructors about not being able to fly. That's just the way
20 flight school is.
21 Q. And when you heard Mr. Moussaoui talk about his, his supposed
22 rich family back in England, did you believe him?
23 A. I don't know. I mean, I -- I don't know. I mean, it could
24 be true; I don't know.
25 Q. But you didn't believe him at the time?
668
1 A. I can't say I didn't believe him, because I just really
2 didn't put too much thought into it.
3 Q. Well, I mean, your -- this is a guy who has not flown solo,
4 correct, and now he's talking about flying a big jet for a rich
5 family back in England. Is that essentially what he told you?
6 A. Um-hum.
7 MR. TROCCOLI: Thank you.
8 THE COURT: You have to say yes or no. Was that a yes
9 answer?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 MR. TROCCOLI: Thank you, Your Honor. No further
12 questions.
13 THE COURT: Redirect?
14 MR. SPENCER: Just one.
15 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. SPENCER:
17 Q. Mr. Moussaoui didn't tell you it was his rich family as
18 Mr. Troccoli just said, did he?
19 A. No.
20 THE COURT: Any recross based on that?
21 MR. TROCCOLI: No, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: All right. I assume no one's going to call
23 Mr. Hernandez again, so you're excused, sir. Do not discuss your
24 testimony with any witness who has not yet testified. Thank you.
25 (Witness excused.)
669
1 THE COURT: I think given the hour, unless you have a
2 truly short witness -- MR. SPENCER: No, Your Honor. I think
3 you've seen our shortest witnesses.
4 THE COURT: All right.
5 (Laughter)
6 THE COURT: Too bad. All right.
7 It was a long day, and I recognize the Bafana deposition
8 was taxing, so, ladies and gentlemen, you're going to get a couple
9 of extra minutes off tonight.
10 I know some of you are frustrated by the long commute.
11 I received a note from one of you about whether there's anything
12 we can do to get you HOV passes. This is the federal government,
13 not state. I am going to see if the marshals are able to work
14 anything out. I don't -- I'm not optimistic.
15 So the other possibility is if some of you live in the
16 general, similar area, you might think about carpooling so that
17 you would qualify on your own. That's something you-all have to
18 work out. If we can do anything for you, we'll get back to you on
19 that quickly.
20 Please remember my continuing caution about avoiding any
21 media coverage about this case. Make sure to leave your notebooks
22 here. And just one more second.
23 All right. Very good. Then the jury is free to go
24 tonight. We'll see you tomorrow morning at 9:30. Thank you.
25
670
1 (Recess from 5:25 p.m., until 9:30 a.m., Thursday, March
2 9, 2006.)
3
4
5 CERTIFICATE OF THE REPORTERS
6 We certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript of the
7 record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter.
8
9
10
Anneliese J. Thomson
11
12 _______________________________________
13 Karen Brynteson
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
671
1 I N D E X
2 DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
3 WITNESSES ON BEHALF OF
THE GOVERNMENT:
4
Faiz Abu Baker Bafana 515
5 (Deposition cont'd.)
6 Brenda Keene 616 629 648 650
7 Chris Turner 651 654
8 Pablo Hernandez, Jr. 660 666 668
9
10 EXHIBITS
11 MARKED RECEIVED
12 GOVERNMENT'S:
13 No. OK-501 627
OK-8 627
14 OK-10 627
OK-11 627
15 OK-11.1 through OK-11.14 627
16 OK-101 627
OK-510 627
17 OK-511 627
OK-512 627
18 OK-513 627
19 OK-102 627
OK-103 627
20 OK-108 through OK-174 627
OK-104 through OK-107 627
21
22
23
24
25