9 March 2006
Source: Digital transcript purchased from Exemplaris.com. Files digitally signed by reporter.

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                        UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
                            ALEXANDRIA DIVISION
     UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,     .       Criminal No. 1:01cr455
          vs.                      .       Alexandria, Virginia
                                  .       March 9, 2006
     ZACARIAS MOUSSAOUI,           .       9:30 a.m.
    a/k/a Shaqil, a/k/a           .
     Abu Khalid al Sahrawi,        .
                    Defendant.     .
     .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
                          TRANSCRIPT OF JURY TRIAL
                        UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
                                  VOLUME IV
                                  DAVID J. NOVAK, AUSA
                                   DAVID RASKIN, AUSA
                                  United States Attorney's Office
                                   2100 Jamieson Avenue
                                  Alexandria, VA 22314
                                  JOHN W. VAN LONKHUYZEN, ESQ.
                                   U.S. Department of Justice
                                  Counterterrorism Section
                                   10th and Constitution Avenue, N.W.
                                  Room 2736
                                   Washington, D.C. 20530
                                  KENNETH P. TROCCOLI
                                   ANNE M. CHAPMAN
                                  Assistant Federal Public Defenders
                                   Office of the Federal Public
                                   1650 King Street
                                  Alexandria, VA 22314

 1   APPEARANCES:  (Cont'd.)
                                  P.O. Box 903
 3                                 107 East Washington Street
                                  Middleburg, VA 20118
 4                                   and
                                  ALAN H. YAMAMOTO, ESQ.
 5                                 643 South Washington Street
                                  Alexandria, VA 22314-3032
 7                                 JOEL ALTER
                                  U.S. District Court, Fifth Floor
 9                                 401 Courthouse Square
                                  Alexandria, VA 22314
10                                 (703)299-8595
11                                 KAREN BRYNTESON, FAPR, RMR, CRR
                                  Brynteson Reporting, Inc.
12                                 2404 Belle Haven Meadows Court
                                  Alexandria, VA 22306
13                                 (703)768-8122

 1                         P R O C E E D I N G S
 2                            (Defendant and Jury in.)
 3             THE COURT:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
 4             Everyone has his and her notebooks?  Good.  And I assume
 5   there were no problems last night.  Did anybody bump into any
 6   media coverage or have any difficulties with folks talking to
 7   them?  No.  Good.  Then we appreciate your being here on time and
 8   we will begin with the next witness.
 9             Mr. Spencer.
10             MR. SPENCER:  Thank you, Your Honor.  Good morning.  The
11   United States calls Shohaib Nazir Kassam
12             THE COURT:  Are we getting close to a glossary of names
13   and terms for the jury?
14             MR. SPENCER:  We have started working on it, Your Honor,
15   yes.
16             THE COURT:  All right, very good.
17             MR. SPENCER:  I think actually we have drafted it and
18   turned it over to the defense.
19             THE COURT:  All right, good.
21                       DIRECT EXAMINATION
23   Q.   Good morning, sir.
24   A.   Good morning.
25   Q.   Can you please tell the jury your full name?

 1   A.   It is Shohaib Kassam.
 2   Q.   Was there a time that you went by the name Shohaib Nazir
 3   Kassam?
 4   A.   Yes, I did.
 5   Q.   Is Nazir actually one of your middle names?
 6   A.   Yes, it is.
 7   Q.   And how old are you, sir?
 8   A.   I am 26 years old.
 9   Q.   In what city do you live?
10   A.   In Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.
11   Q.   Where were you born and where were you raised?
12   A.   I was born in Karachi, Pakistan, and I was raised in Kenya.
13   Q.   How old were you when you moved to Kenya?
14   A.   About six months old.
15   Q.   When did you first come to the United States?
16   A.   It was sometime in July, between June and July of 1999.
17   Q.   And, I'm sorry, could you spell Kassam for the court
18   reporter?
19   A.   That's K-a-s-s-a-m.
20   Q.   And Nazir is N-a-z-i-r?
21   A.   Yes.
22   Q.   And Shohaib is S-h-o-h-a-i-b?
23   A.   Correct.
24   Q.   Thank you.  And what do you do for a living?
25   A.   I'm a certified flight instructor.

 1   Q.   What licenses or ratings do you hold as a certified flight
 2   instructor?
 3   A.   I hold a commercial multi and a certified flight instructor
 4   instrument rating.
 5   Q.   When did you receive -- let me ask you this:  You said you
 6   hold a commercial multi?
 7   A.   Commercial multi and certified flight instructor ratings.
 8   Q.   And multi stands for multi-engine?
 9   A.   Multi-engine, correct.
10   Q.   When did you first get a commercial pilot's license?
11   A.   It was in 2000, sometime in, between August and September
12   2000, yes, 2000.
13   Q.   When did you become a flight instructor?
14   A.   October of 2000.
15   Q.   What is your immigration status in the United States?
16   A.   I'm in paroled status.
17   Q.   What's paroled status mean?
18   A.   It is just extended, I guess an extended visa through the
19   U.S. government.
20   Q.   So you are on permission to remain and work in the United
21   States?
22   A.   Correct.
23   Q.   And that is, additional months are added to that on an
24   ongoing basis?
25   A.   That's right.

 1   Q.   And is that, one of the reasons that you have got parole into
 2   the United States is because of your cooperation in this case?
 3   A.   That's true.
 4   Q.   And have you been promised any type of immigration benefit by
 5   the United States Government in connection with your testimony in
 6   this case?
 7   A.   No, I haven't.
 8   Q.   Now, was there a time, Mr. Kassam, that you attended the
 9   Airman Flight School?
10   A.   Yes, I did.
11   Q.   When was that?
12   A.   That was between July 1999 and -- I mean, October, since I
13   started instructing out of there, of 2000.
14   Q.   And was there a time that you taught as a flight instructor
15   at the Airman Flight School?
16   A.   Yes, I did.
17   Q.   And when was that?
18   A.   That was starting October of 2000 up until January of '04.
19   Q.   When you were -- when you were teaching students how to fly
20   at Airman Flight School, were you actually an employee of the
21   Airman Flight School?
22   A.   No, I was not.
23   Q.   So how were you able to teach students there?
24   A.   I was working towards my airline transport pilot license, and
25   I was amassing flight time as a flight instructor at Airman Flight

 1   School.
 2   Q.   Were you given some money by Airman Flight School in exchange
 3   for teaching their students?
 4   A.   Yes, they gave me a small student allotment.
 5   Q.   While you were doing that, you were building up hours, which
 6   would help you get what I think you have called --
 7   A.   The airline transport pilot license.
 8   Q.   That's sometimes called an ATP?
 9   A.   ATP, correct.
10   Q.   Okay.  Is that an arrangement that's common at Airman Flight
11   School?
12   A.   Yes, it was.
13   Q.   All right.  What type of aircraft did you teach students on
14   at Airman Flight School?
15   A.   Mostly just light, single-engine airplanes.
16   Q.   Now, when you were teaching at the Airman Flight School, did
17   you have contact with Zacarias Moussaoui?
18   A.   Yes, I did.
19   Q.   In what capacity?
20   A.   I was his primary flight instructor.
21   Q.   When did you first have contact with Mr. Moussaoui?
22   A.   It was sometime in February, late February of '01.
23   Q.   Do you see him in court today?
24   A.   Yes.
25   Q.   Can you point him out for the jury, please?

 1   A.   That's him right there (indicating).
 2             MR. SPENCER:  Is that sufficient for an identification
 3   on the record, Your Honor?
 4             THE COURT:  Any objection to the identification?
 5             MR. MAC MAHON:  Stipulate to the identification.
 6             THE COURT:  The record will so reflect the witness
 7   identified the defendant.
 9   Q.   How long were you Mr. Moussaoui's flight instructor?
10   A.   Between March and May of '01.
11   Q.   And what did your training, your flight training of
12   Mr. Moussaoui consist of?
13   A.   Primarily flight training and ground instruction.
14   Q.   And let's take the ground instruction first.  How often did
15   you teach him in ground school?
16   A.   I taught the first two weeks of a private pilot ground
17   school, and that rotated between, I think, three instructors, and
18   I may have taught it anywhere from -- maybe twice a week at least.
19   Q.   In those two weeks of ground school, did the students meet
20   every day?
21   A.   Pretty much.
22   Q.   And is it classroom-type instruction?
23   A.   Yes.
24   Q.   How was Mr. Moussaoui as a student in ground school?
25   A.   Fairly active, very attentive, would actively participate in

 1   discussions.
 2   Q.   Did he ask questions?
 3   A.   Yes, he did.
 4   Q.   Did he argue with you when you were the instructor?
 5   A.   Sometimes, yes.
 6   Q.   Was that in an inappropriate manner or in a manner
 7   appropriate for a classroom?
 8   A.   Very appropriate.  It was all relevant classroom material.
 9   Q.   Mr. Kassam, approximately what percentage in your experience
10   of Airman Flight students come from outside the United States?
11   A.   A vast majority, I would say between 70 and 80 percent.
12   Q.   Now, let's turn to the in-flight training program.  Did you
13   fly with Mr. Moussaoui?
14   A.   Yes, I did.
15   Q.   How many times?
16   A.   A cumulative of a little over 50 hours of flight time over --
17   between March and May.
18   Q.   Of 2000 --
19   A.   Of 2001.
20   Q.   And how was Mr. Moussaoui as a pilot once you were up in the
21   plane with him?
22   A.   Not a very good pilot, I'd say, not the best student, just
23   below average as far as his flying abilities went.
24   Q.   And what was the -- what were his challenges as a student
25   when trying to fly a plane?

 1   A.   Just basic aircraft control, you know, he couldn't maintain
 2   basic aircraft control most of the time.
 3   Q.   How was his concentration when he was up in the air?
 4   A.   He was, he would try -- he would definitely try to
 5   concentrate and try to learn the task at hand.
 6   Q.   All right.  And you had him -- you taught him over 50 hours
 7   yourself personally; is that what you said?
 8   A.   That's right.
 9   Q.   Did you get him to solo the plane during that time period?
10   A.   No, I did not.
11   Q.   Is that common or uncommon?
12   A.   To a certain degree it is common, but in my case it was
13   uncommon.  That was pretty -- as far as I can remember, that was
14   the highest time I have taken anybody to get to that point, which
15   I didn't succeed with Zac.
16   Q.   So you never got him to the point where he solo'd?
17   A.   No.
18   Q.   And, in fact, you have never had a student that took longer
19   to get toward a solo than Mr. Moussaoui?
20   A.   No.
21   Q.   Did he get a student pilot certificate?
22   A.   He did have a student pilot certificate.
23   Q.   Tell the jury what that means, to get a student pilot
24   certificate.
25   A.   That's what you initially need before you start flight

 1   training.  It is called a student pilot and medical certificate.
 2   So before -- typically when you start flight training, that's what
 3   you start with.
 4   Q.   And you already told us that he never gained to the point
 5   where he could solo the airplane?
 6   A.   That's correct.
 7   Q.   When you are up in the air with him, there are times when you
 8   give that student control, even though they are not permitted to
 9   solo yet, correct?
10   A.   That's very normal, yes.
11   Q.   Did he get a private pilot's license?
12   A.   No, he did not.
13   Q.   And in your experience you told us that that was a little
14   unusual, to fly for 50 hours and not get a private pilot's
15   license, or do I have that mixed up?
16   A.   In my -- sometimes you may exceed that time frame to get, to
17   obtain a private pilot's certificate.
18   Q.   I guess what I'm getting at is soloing a plane and getting a
19   private pilot's license are two different things; is that fair?
20   A.   That's correct.
21   Q.   First you learn to solo, and then you get a private pilot's
22   license?
23   A.   That's correct.
24   Q.   Now, there came a time when you stopped teaching
25   Mr. Moussaoui?

 1   A.   Yes.
 2   Q.   And when was that?
 3   A.   It was sometime in May, I think, of 2001.
 4   Q.   Why did you stop being his primary flight instructor?
 5   A.   I was assigned to a different program.  I went, I moved from
 6   the private pilot certificate, certification program to the
 7   instrument rating course.
 8   Q.   Do you think if you had stayed with Mr. Moussaoui you could
 9   have gotten him to the point where he could solo a single engine
10   airplane?
11   A.   Yes.  I was confident if I'd stayed with him, I probably
12   would have gotten him to his goal.
13   Q.   During the time that you spent with him, what did you call
14   him?
15   A.   I called him Zac.
16   Q.   Why did you call him Zac?
17   A.   That's what he wanted to be addressed as.
18   Q.   And how did you get along with him?
19   A.   Fairly well.  I mean, we got along just fine.
20   Q.   Did you have a lot of time in general discussion?
21   A.   Classroom time, just during the time that we were in the
22   flight school, yes.
23   Q.   And how about when you were up in the airplane?
24   A.   We had brief moments where we just talked a little bit
25   between all our maneuvers.

 1   Q.   Did you find him an interesting man to talk to?
 2   A.   Yes.
 3   Q.   Did you find him -- did you find that you got into arguments
 4   with him?
 5   A.   Sometimes, but -- we did.
 6   Q.   Over what topics?
 7   A.   Just over flying material, basically just techniques and, you
 8   know, how I taught the maneuvers and what he thought, the way it
 9   should be taught.
10   Q.   Were most of your discussions about flight-related issues, or
11   was it world events or some other topic?
12   A.   Just flight-related, majority of them were flight-related
13   issues.
14   Q.   Were the arguments or disagreements you had with him, were
15   they friendly confrontations or sort of nasty disagreements?
16   A.   They were very friendly.
17   Q.   Did you ever have any discussion with Mr. Moussaoui about why
18   he was in flight school?
19   A.   Yes, I did.
20   Q.   And how did that go, please tell the jury?
21   A.   Just, it is pretty common to ask students what their goals
22   are and their objectives are and why they are doing this.  And I
23   think Zac at the time said he wanted to do this for a couple of
24   individuals in the Middle East, he had some friends that were very
25   wealthy that eventually he was going to fly privately for, he was

 1   going to fly private jets for.
 2   Q.   And what was your response to that?
 3   A.   I just said, you know, that probably would not be the case,
 4   with just a private pilot certificate, that he would need to go
 5   beyond the private pilot certification course to be able to get to
 6   that goal.
 7   Q.   And what was his response to your comments?
 8   A.   He asked me:  What is that process?
 9             I told him:  You know, you would have to get your
10   instrument rating, you need to have your commercial rating,
11   multi-engine rating, and then probably a type rating particular to
12   that make and model.
13   Q.   And what concern did he ever voice about how long that
14   process would take to be able to fly a jet?
15   A.   I don't recall him raising a concern as to how long it would
16   take him to get there.  I know he had a goal that he had to get
17   out of there in six months or so, but there was no specific goal
18   to get to that jet as far as I remember.
19   Q.   And did you ever ask him what he did for a living?
20   A.   Yes, I did.
21   Q.   What did he tell you?
22   A.   He said he was a businessman and did, you know, import/export
23   trade type things.
24   Q.   Did you ever ask him what type of trade?
25   A.   Not specifically.  It was just import and export, so that's

 1   to the extent that we discussed it.
 2   Q.   Had he mentioned anything about whether he would travel
 3   around the world?
 4   A.   Yes.
 5   Q.   And what did he tell you about that?
 6   A.   We talked about, you know, I'm originally from -- well, I was
 7   born in Karachi, Pakistan, and he said he had been to Pakistan.
 8   And been to the Middle East, I guess, and, you know, Europe,
 9   France, London, obviously.  And he -- you know, we talked about
10   Kenya a little bit and the fact that he knew some people in
11   Mombassa in Kenya.
12   Q.   Mombassa is your hometown in Kenya?
13   A.   Yes, it is.
14   Q.   What religion did Mr. Moussaoui practice?
15   A.   He was Muslim.
16   Q.   How did you know that?
17   A.   Just by talking to him, his name, and basically it was pretty
18   evident that he was Muslim.
19   Q.   Why was it pretty evident that he was Muslim?
20   A.   His -- just going off his name, and, you know, we talked
21   about religion and the fact that, you know, he would pray and, you
22   know, I wasn't praying at the time, so we had --
23   Q.   What religion, what faith were you raised in, what religion
24   did you practice?
25   A.   I was raised as a Muslim.

 1   Q.   Did he ask you about that?
 2   A.   Yes.
 3   Q.   And how did that come up?
 4   A.   I vaguely remember, but I think it was just, you know, the
 5   fact that I didn't pray and didn't go to the mosque, and he said
 6   well, you know, you ought to, you ought to do this, you know, you
 7   will get rewarded, you know, and it is something that you should
 8   do as a Muslim, as a pious Muslim.
 9   Q.   We will come back to that in one second.
10             How did he first discover that you were from Pakistan?
11   A.   I probably volunteered that information.
12   Q.   Early on or later on in your relationship?
13   A.   It was pretty early on.  It was just part of getting to know
14   him and him getting to know me.
15   Q.   Was there anything unusual about that, or did --
16   A.   No, it is very normal.
17   Q.   In other words, it came up in the natural course of talking
18   to a student?
19   A.   Correct.
20   Q.   Now, would you describe yourself in 2001 as a devout Muslim?
21   A.   No, I wasn't.
22   Q.   And you mentioned that he was trying to get you back into the
23   faith?
24   A.   No.  He just talked about, you know, church, I mean, sorry,
25   mosques and going to pray and fasting, and just things like that,

 1   but he didn't, you know, prompt me to go to the mosque or
 2   anything.
 3   Q.   And what was the issue -- was there any particular issue that
 4   he said that you could, you should reconsider your actions on?
 5   A.   Not that I recall.
 6   Q.   All right.  Did you ever discuss Jihad with him?
 7   A.   No, I didn't.
 8   Q.   Did you consider him to be a particular extremist or
 9   fundamentalist Muslim?
10   A.   No.
11   Q.   Now, Mr. Kassam, after September 11th, 2001, did you
12   recognize the photographs of some of the 9/11, the 19 9/11
13   hijackers who died that day?
14   A.   Yes, I did.
15   Q.   How did that come about?
16   A.   I was in Mombassa, Kenya, at the time vacationing, and I saw
17   these images appear on CNN.  It was, I think, Mohamed Atta and
18   Marwan al-Shehhi.  And I remembered seeing them at Airman Flight
19   School in 2000, in the summer of 2000.
20   Q.   And you recognized their face?
21   A.   Yes, I did.
22   Q.   Tell the jury what happened when you saw them at Airman
23   Flight School.
24   A.   I was a student at the time, and I was walking out of the
25   debriefing station, and I just pretty much ran into Mohamed Atta.

 1   It was pretty close.  He was walking into the debriefing room from
 2   the hallway and I was walking out.  And I looked up at him, and he
 3   said "hi" and I said "hi" and I walked out.
 4             And then I think I saw Brenda giving the tour, and
 5   Marwan al-Shehhi was trailing her, Brenda Keene.
 6   Q.   Do you remember what time of the year that was in 2000?
 7   A.   No, I do not remember.
 8   Q.   After you recognized those images on CNN, what did you do
 9   about it?
10   A.   Nothing at the time.  I just told my dad that, you know,
11   these are some of the guys that I had seen at the flight school.
12   Q.   And at some point did you report that to the FBI?
13   A.   Yes, when I was back in the U.S.
14             MR. SPENCER:  Nothing further on direct, Your Honor.
15   Thank you.
16             THE COURT:  All right.  Cross-examination?
17             MR. TROCCOLI:  Thank you, Your Honor.
18                       CROSS-EXAMINATION
20   Q.   Good morning, Mr. Kassam.  You say you flew with
21   Mr. Moussaoui more than any other instructor at Airman; is that
22   correct?
23   A.   That's correct.
24   Q.   Approximately 50 hours of flight time?
25   A.   Yes.

 1   Q.   Is that about 35 to 40 times that you have flown with
 2   Mr. Moussaoui when you were an instructor at Airman?
 3   A.   Close.
 4   Q.   And it is true that Mr. Moussaoui, in fact, had a lot of
 5   problems with the flight instruction portion of his instruction at
 6   Airman, correct?
 7   A.   Yes.
 8   Q.   He had difficulty keeping the aircraft level?
 9   A.   We conformed to what's called the practical test standards,
10   and, yes, he did have problems maintaining the airplane within the
11   required standards.
12   Q.   He couldn't keep the aircraft level according to the required
13   standards to have a pilot's license?
14   A.   Correct.
15   Q.   He had trouble making turns?
16   A.   Within the specified bank angles, yes.
17   Q.   The requirements?
18   A.   Right.
19   Q.   He couldn't make them according to the requirements?
20   A.   Correct.
21   Q.   And he had trouble with his, with the descents of the
22   aircraft?
23   A.   To a certain degree, yes.
24   Q.   He didn't meet the requirements for those, either, correct?
25   A.   Correct.

 1             MR. SPENCER:  Your Honor, could the witness finish his
 2   answer, please.
 3             THE COURT:  Yes, just hold off.
 4             THE WITNESS:  It was -- what I mean by that is, you
 5   know, under normal flight maneuvers, when you are out in what we
 6   call the practice area, where it is nonstressful, there is not
 7   very many airplanes around, he would do fairly well.
 8             And when we would enter what we call the traffic
 9   pattern, where we're practicing the maneuvers, takeoffS, and
10   landings, it is a very tense environment, there is numerous
11   airplanes in the traffic pattern at the time, there is a lot of
12   chatter that's going on, and under those circumstances he would,
13   you know, he would be tense and just wouldn't stay focused.
15   Q.   He had trouble concentrating on more than one thing at a
16   time?
17   A.   Correct.
18   Q.   And at some point you realized that he really wouldn't be
19   able to fly an aircraft due to his poor performance in the flight
20   instruction portion of his instruction at Airman?
21   A.   I didn't feel that he wouldn't learn it.  It would just take
22   him longer to get it.
23   Q.   Do you recall speaking to the FBI in May of 2002?
24   A.   Yes, I do.
25   Q.   Do you recall telling them in May of 2002 that Moussaoui was

 1   smart in ground school but once in the aircraft, Moussaoui had a
 2   lot of problems?
 3   A.   I believe I said that.
 4   Q.   And that he began to have difficulties keeping the aircraft
 5   level, straight on course, and negotiating turns and descents; is
 6   that correct?
 7   A.   Within the specified standards, yes.
 8   Q.   And he never showed enough skills to fly solo, correct?
 9   A.   Correct.
10   Q.   And at some point you mentioned that there were different
11   instructors that taught Mr. Moussaoui.  Is it true that his
12   instructors were changed in part because he was having problems
13   learning the basic skills to solo?
14   A.   I would say yes.
15   Q.   And eventually Mr. Moussaoui quit his training, correct, as
16   far as you know?
17   A.   Yes.
18   Q.   Now, there are different levels of training that a person, a
19   student can receive, correct?
20   A.   Yes.
21   Q.   You, yourself, have a private pilot's license?
22   A.   The commercial supersedes the private.
23   Q.   And there is a commercial license above that?
24   A.   Pardon me?
25   Q.   There is a commercial pilot's license, which is higher than a

 1   private pilot's license?
 2   A.   Correct.
 3   Q.   And there is instrument ratings that you can get on top of
 4   that?
 5   A.   In addition to a commercial or private.
 6   Q.   And Mr. Moussaoui was not able to get any of those things?
 7   A.   He was -- at the time he was just working on his private
 8   pilot certification.  He talked about the instrument rating but we
 9   weren't working on that with him.
10   Q.   Now, you mentioned at times that Mr. Moussaoui was
11   argumentative?
12   A.   Yes.
13   Q.   Did you find him to be stubborn?
14   A.   No.
15   Q.   Isn't it true that he tended to blame others for his
16   failings?
17   A.   I would say yes to that.
18   Q.   In fact, didn't he blame you?
19   A.   Yes, I remember him saying, calling -- go ahead.
20   Q.   I'm sorry, go ahead.
21   A.   He had a nickname for me, he called me WI, and, you know, at
22   first it didn't make sense to me what that stood for.  And I asked
23   him:  What's that, Zac?  And he said:  The worst instructor.  So I
24   just laughed about it, you know, I didn't think much of it, but I
25   did want to get a second opinion on, you know, on him.  So that's

 1   where the other instructors would have come in, just to, you know,
 2   help me analyze if, you know, where the problems or the weaknesses
 3   were.
 4   Q.   How did you interpret the WI comment from Mr. Moussaoui?  Did
 5   you interpret that to mean that he was blaming you?
 6   A.   I just took it as a joke.  I didn't take it literally because
 7   he laughed when he said that, so I just took it as a joke.
 8   Q.   But he thought you were the problem?
 9   A.   That's for him to decide.
10   Q.   You mentioned that you spoke about religion with
11   Mr. Moussaoui; is that correct?
12   A.   That's correct.
13   Q.   In fact, he was pretty open about his religion with you?
14   A.   Yes, he was.
15   Q.   And he made it clear to you that he was a devout Muslim?
16   A.   From his actions, I assumed he was a devout Muslim.
17   Q.   He prayed about five times a day, as far as you knew?
18   A.   As far as I knew, yes.
19   Q.   And he had a strict interpretation of Islam, as far as you
20   knew?
21   A.   Yes.
22   Q.   And isn't it true that he openly preached to everyone?
23   A.   No.
24   Q.   He didn't openly preach to you?
25   A.   No.

 1   Q.   In fact, he told you that you were not a good Muslim because
 2   you didn't pray enough, correct?
 3   A.   I don't consider that as preaching, though.
 4   Q.   But that's what he told you?
 5   A.   Yes.
 6   Q.   In fact, his training schedule was modified somewhat so that
 7   he could attend mosques on Friday, correct?
 8   A.   Correct.
 9   Q.   Do you recall speaking to the FBI in August of 2001?
10   A.   Yes, I do.
11             THE COURT:  Wait, 2001?
12             MR. TROCCOLI:  2001, Your Honor.
13             THE WITNESS:  2002, that would be.
15   Q.   Do you recall also speaking to the FBI in August of 2001?
16   A.   Oh, yeah, I do.  I do.
17   Q.   And do you recall telling the FBI, "Mr. Nazir remembers
18   Moussaoui being an extremely faithful Muslim and preaching to
19   everyone"?
20   A.   No, I do not recall saying that.
21   Q.   Would it refresh your recollection to look at a copy of the
22   FBI memorandum of the interview you had with the FBI?
23   A.   Sure.
24   Q.   With the assistance of Mr. Wood --
25             THE COURT:  Mr. Troccoli, show it to Mr. Spencer,

 1   please.
 2             THE WITNESS:  What paragraph is it?
 4   Q.   At the bottom of the page I have highlighted the areas.  Read
 5   those and then -- if you would, and let me know when you are
 6   through.
 7   A.   You said the bottom of the page?
 8   Q.   The highlighted areas on the page.
 9   A.   Okay.  "When Nazir pointed out a plane and told Moussaoui" --
10             MR. SPENCER:  Excuse me, Your Honor.
11             THE COURT:  You don't need to read -- the issue is
12   whether after you have read that document, you remember what you
13   said.
14             THE WITNESS:  Oh, okay.  Sorry, I apologize.
15             THE COURT:  I assume that was the objection,
16   Mr. Spencer.
17             MR. SPENCER:  It was, Your Honor.
19   Q.   Sir, do you remember telling the FBI in August 2001 -- thank
20   you, Mr. Wood -- that Moussaoui was an extremely faithful Muslim
21   and preaching to everyone?
22   A.   No, I do not recall saying that.
23   Q.   Do you deny saying it?
24   A.   I just don't remember saying it.
25   Q.   You don't remember.  You do -- that is what the document said

 1   that was just handed to you, however?
 2             MR. SPENCER:  It is improper impeachment.
 3             THE COURT:  That's improper.  Sustained.
 5   Q.   When you were -- you were interviewed by the FBI, however;
 6   you recall that?
 7   A.   Yes, I do.
 8   Q.   And you answered questions about Mr. Moussaoui to them?
 9   A.   Yes, I did.
10   Q.   What did the FBI tell you at that time that they knew about
11   Mr. Moussaoui?
12   A.   I didn't know what was going on.  I just -- they just asked
13   me questions and at the end -- at the beginning showed me a
14   picture and that was it.  I did not -- I didn't have a clue what
15   was going on.
16   Q.   You gave the FBI information, similar information to what you
17   have testified to here today?
18   A.   At that time?
19   Q.   Yes.
20   A.   From what I recall, it would have -- yes, I would say yes.
21   Q.   You told them at that time that he was extremely nosy,
22   wanting to know every little detail about everything and everyone,
23   correct?
24   A.   That would sound like Zac, yes.
25   Q.   You told them that he was naive about aviation?

 1   A.   Yes.
 2   Q.   Correct?  So naive, in fact, that you told the FBI that --
 3   you recounted an incident in which Mr. Moussaoui said that he
 4   wanted to buy an airplane like the one he saw at the school,
 5   correct?
 6   A.   Correct.
 7   Q.   And you recounted to the FBI that when you pointed out to
 8   Mr. Moussaoui that the aircraft costs millions of dollars, that
 9   Mr. Moussaoui seemed surprised.
10   A.   He didn't seem surprised.
11   Q.   But is that what you told the FBI?
12   A.   I do not remember saying that.
13   Q.   Would it refresh your recollection to take a look at the
14   memorandum of your interview with the FBI?
15   A.   Yes.
16             MR. NOVAK:  With Mr. Wood's assistance.
17   BY MR. NOVAK:
18   Q.   Do you recall saying that to the FBI?
19   A.   Not the fact that he was surprised.
20   Q.   Do you recall giving to the FBI another name that
21   Mr. Moussaoui used?
22   A.   Yes.
23   Q.   Zuluman Tangotango?
24   A.   Yes, Zuluman Tangotango.
25             MR. TROCCOLI:  Court's indulgence.

 1             THE COURT:  Yes, sir.
 3   Q.   Mr. Kassam, you testified earlier about a student pilot
 4   certificate, did you say Mr. Moussaoui had?
 5   A.   Correct.
 6   Q.   What are the requirements for getting a student pilot
 7   certificate?
 8   A.   You have got to be at least 16 years of age, be able to read,
 9   understand, and write the English language, and speak it,
10   basically just pass a flight physical.
11   Q.   You don't have to have any flying skills?
12   A.   No.
13             MR. TROCCOLI:  Thank you.  No further questions.
14             THE COURT:  Any redirect?
15             MR. SPENCER:  Just a few, Your Honor.
16             THE COURT:  Yes, sir.
17                       REDIRECT EXAMINATION
19   Q.   Mr. Kassam, Mr. Troccoli asked you several questions about
20   whether you thought Mr. Moussaoui was a devout or not a devout
21   Muslim.  Did you ever go to mosque with him?
22   A.   No, I never did.
23   Q.   Did he ever try to get you to go to mosque with him?
24   A.   No.
25   Q.   And the issue he had with you about getting back more into

 1   your faith, that was concerning your habit of pursuing American
 2   women; is that true?
 3   A.   Yes.
 4   Q.   Can you tell the jury what happened on that?
 5   A.   You know, just loose talk, we were just talking about, you
 6   know, what I do with my free time and, you know, yeah, I go out
 7   dancing, you know, socialize and, you know, meet women.  And, you
 8   know, to that he said, you know, these earthly things, you know,
 9   right now, that you are pursuing right now, aren't going to be
10   worth anything, you know, if you probably were more devout in your
11   faith, you know, at the end you would end up getting these
12   beautiful women in heaven, you know.  So I vividly recall him
13   saying that.
14   Q.   Did that change your practices at all?
15   A.   No.
16             (Laughter.)
17             MR. SPENCER:  Thank you, Your Honor.  That's all I have.
18             THE COURT:  Any recross?
19                       RECROSS EXAMINATION
21   Q.   Mr. Kassam, did Mr. Moussaoui mention how you would get these
22   beautiful women?
23   A.   No, he did not.
24   Q.   Did he mention that it was in paradise, after death?
25   A.   Well, I'm assuming it was going to be after death because,

 1   you know, that's the assumption.
 2             MR. TROCCOLI: All right, thank you.
 3             THE COURT:  All right.  I assume Mr. Kassam is finished
 4   as a witness?
 5             MR. SPENCER:  Yes, thank you, Your Honor.
 6             THE COURT:  Thank you, sir, for your testimony.  You are
 7   excused.  Do not discuss your testimony or anything you have heard
 8   in court with any witness who has not yet testified.
 9                                      (Witness excused.)
10             THE COURT:  Your next witness?
11             MR. SPENCER:  I would like to read in part of a
12   stipulation, part of records that I think have been admitted, have
13   been admitted by stipulation.  I would like to publish to the
14   jury --
15             THE COURT:  All right.
16             MR. SPENCER:  -- several e-mails.  The first one, Your
17   Honor, is an e-mail, these all come out of the pilotz123@hotmail
18   account.  Zuluman Tangotango is the name assigned to that account.
19   This is an e-mail dated --
20             THE COURT:  Do these have exhibit numbers on them?
21             MR. SPENCER:  They do, Your Honor.  I will give them.
22   If you look at the screen it is on the upper left.
23             THE COURT:  All right.  But I think for the purposes of
24   the record, we need to have these -- so this is FO-05521.10,
25   correct?

 1             MR. SPENCER:  They all have the -- they are all
 2   Government Exhibit FO-5521.1, and they will range from .10, they
 3   go all the way up to .70.  But I am not going to go into all of
 4   those, Your Honor.  I am going to take a look at eight of those
 5   only.
 6             THE COURT:  But are those the only ones that are going
 7   to go into evidence to the jury?
 8             MR. SPENCER:  No, there are other ones that have gone in
 9   by stipulation, Your Honor.
10             THE COURT:  But we are going to look at just eight right
11   now?
12             MR. SPENCER:  Correct.
13             MR. MAC MAHON:  That's correct, Your Honor.  We have
14   stipulated to the authenticity and admissibility of all those
15   documents.
16             THE COURT:  All right.  Right now we're looking at --
17   I'm just going to call it .10 because that's easier
18   than point-1-0.
19             MR. SPENCER:  Very well.  .10 was actually read by
20   Mr. Raskin yesterday so I am going to skip that in the interest of
21   time, Your Honor.
22             THE COURT:  That's fine.
23             MR. SPENCER:  Going to .11, it is an e-mail dated May
24   18th, 2001.  With the Court's permission I am just going to read
25   the highlighted portion.  "I need some information on how to

 1   achieve my life dream.  I want to pilot a big jet, so I need to
 2   know what qualification I need to get my rating on an Airbus 300
 3   and on Being 737 and Boeing 747 and 777.  To fly in a simulator
 4   one of this plane is my dream."
 5             And now to .12, Your Honor.
 6             THE COURT:  All right.
 7             MR. SPENCER:  "If I can get a full simulator training on
 8   a Boeing or Airbus even if I am not a commercial pilot.  I'm doing
 9   my PPL but my dream is to fly one of these big bird (of course in
10   a simulator)."
11             That is an e-mail to flights@flightsafety.com dated May
12   21st, 2001.
13             The next one I wish to publish is 14, Your Honor.
14             THE COURT:  All right.
15             MR. SPENCER:  That's an e-mail to sergiocasce@fsbti.com,
16   May 22nd, 2001.
17             "Ready to spend a bit money to have the experience of a
18   lifetime to fly one of these big bird.  I do not intended to
19   become a airline pilot.  I am 33 years old (a bit late to start)
20   but this is one of my dream."
21             And down at the other highlighted portion:  "Finally,
22   could you advise me where to buy the best PC simulator" -- I'm
23   sorry, Your Honor, we're having a technical issue -- "the best PC
24   simulator for a large airliner, something with rudder, pedal,
25   throttle, ET, something very professional."

 1             I would like to go all the way up to .30, Your Honor.
 2             THE COURT:  All right.
 3             MR. SPENCER:  "I am interested not the full POH/FM, only
 4   some training material that will enable to prepare my flight on
 5   the 747 and 757.  (I have in mind to try them both.)"
 6             That is to sandralguthrie@ual.com.  That was dated June
 7   5th, 2001.
 8             The next one up should be .29, which is the same date,
 9   June 5th, 2001.  It is to mikecalcagno@fsbti.com.
10             The highlighted portion reads:  "I asked them a training
11   manual for the 747 and 757.  They told me only Boeing will give
12   them."
13             The next one should be .66.  That's an e-mail dated
14   August 3rd, 2001 to Magellan Support from the same address,
15   Zuluman Tangotango.  "Hi, is it possible to convert a street pilot
16   3 to a aviation GPS GPSMAP 295?  What should I do, buy, et cetera,
17   and how much will it cost?"
18             And then the last one I would like to publish, Your
19   Honor, is .70, dated August 6th, 2001.  Again, from Zuluman
20   Tangotango to Magellan Support.  "Hi, can I use this GPS in a
21   plane to find my position and can I use it street map on a car?
22   Thank you."
23             THE COURT:  So for the record, FO05521.11, 12, 14, 30,
24   29, 66 and 70 are in evidence, and they have all been published to
25   the jury.

 1             (Government's Exhibit Nos. FO05521.11, FO05521.12,
 2   FO05521.14, FO05521.30, FO05521.29, FO05521.66, and FO05521.70
 3   were received in evidence.)
 4             THE COURT:  Your next witness?
 5             MR. SPENCER:  Your Honor, one fact I would like to add
 6   from the stipulation is that the e-mails that are FSBTI are to
 7   Flight Safety at Boeing.  That's a stipulated fact.
 8             THE COURT:  All right.
 9             MR. SPENCER:  Thank you, Your Honor.
10             MR. MAC MAHON:  That's correct, Your Honor.
11             THE COURT:  All right.
12             THE COURT:  Mr. Novak, your next witness?
13             MR. NOVAK:  Good morning, Judge.  I would like to begin
14   with publishing some stipulations, if I could, and introducing
15   some attendant exhibits, if I might.
16             Beginning with Stipulation 129, paragraph R, and the
17   attendant exhibit, which we'd like to display on the screen if we
18   could, Exhibit MN-151.
19             THE COURT:  M-N as in "Nancy"?
20             MR. NOVAK:  MN-151.  The stipulation reads -- if we
21   could zoom in a little bit.  The stipulation reads:  On May 23rd,
22   2001 Mr. Moussaoui, using his Internet address of
23   pilotz123@hotmail.com, sent an e-mail message to Pan Am flight
24   academy requesting information on simulator training.
25             The e-mail read as follows:  "Hello, Mrs. Matt.  I am

 1   Mrs. Zacarias.  I contacted you today by phone.  Basically I need
 2   to know if you can help to achieve my goal, my dream.  I would
 3   like to fly in a professsional like manner one of the big
 4   airliners.  I have to made my mind which of the following:  Boeing
 5   747, 757, 767, or 777 and/or Airbus 300 (it will depend on the
 6   cost and which one is easiest to learn).  The level that I would
 7   like to achieve is to be able to take off and land, to handle
 8   communication with ATC, to be able to successfully navigate from A
 9   to B, JFK to Heathrow, for example, in a sense to be able to pilot
10   one of these big bird, even if I am not a real professsional
11   pilot.  I am ready to take instrument course to achieve some basic
12   understanding.  I have around 55 hours of flying and a 152, and I
13   passed my written PPL last month.  I know it could be better but I
14   am sure that you can do something.  After all, we are in America,
15   and everything is possible.  Have a nice day, waiting for a
16   positive fly.  Thanks you, Zac."
17             We move for the admission of MN-151.
18             THE COURT:  There is no objection, right, that's
19   stipulated to?
20             MR. MAC MAHON:  No, Your Honor, no objection.
21             THE COURT:  It is in.
22             (Government's Exhibit No. MN-151 was received in
23   evidence.)
24             MR. NOVAK:  The next stipulation is subparagraph GG from
25   129.  And the attendant exhibit is MN-617.1, which we move for the

 1   admission of.
 2             THE COURT:  I'm sorry, give me the number again?
 3             MR. NOVAK:  617.1.
 4             THE COURT:  There is no objection to that, correct?
 5             MR. MAC MAHON:  None, Your Honor.
 6             THE COURT:  All right, it is in.
 7             (Government's Exhibit No. MN-617.1 was received in
 8   evidence.)
 9             MR. NOVAK:  On June 28th of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui received
10   a fax from Matt Tierney, sales director at Pan Am Flight Academy,
11   regarding his custom B747-400 pilot course.  The fax is Exhibit
12   Number MN-617.1.  The contents of the fax --
13             THE COURT:  Mr. Novak, just slow it down a smidge.
14             MR. NOVAK:  I've been waiting for four days, Judge.
15             THE COURT:  I understand.
16             (Laughter.)
17             THE COURT:  Take a deep breath.  We can start.
18             MR. NOVAK:  I will try to behave.  All right.  The fax
19   read:  "The following course has been reconstructed by our
20   training staff in Minneapolis to accomplish your below stated
21   objective.  Quoting your e-mail of 5/23/01:  'The level that I
22   would like to achieve is to be able to take off and land, to
23   handle communication with ATC, to be able to successfully navigate
24   from A to B (JFK to Heathrow, for example).  In a sense to be able
25   to pilot one of these big bird, even if I am not a real

 1   professsional pilot.'
 2             "A, the course:  Eight hours, B747-400, ground school
 3   orientation for two days.  12 hours of B747-400 full flight
 4   simulator to include your maiden captain flight for four days,
 5   actual flight destination to be determined by you and your
 6   instructor.  Training total $8300."
 7             The next stipulation, Your Honor, is subparagraph II
 8   from the same 129, with Exhibit Number MN-154, which we would also
 9   move to introduce.
10             THE COURT:  All right.  That's also in.
11             (Government's Exhibit No. MN-154 was received in
12   evidence.)
13             MR. NOVAK:  The stipulation provides on July the 10th of
14   2001, Mr. Moussaoui paid $1500 as a deposit for flight simulator
15   training at Pan Am International.  Mr. Moussaoui faxed from
16   telephone number 405-364-7202 an authorization to Pan Am to pay
17   for this deposit using his Arvest Bank debit card.  Two charges
18   were made, one for $500, and the other for a thousand dollars.
19             Stipulation number or subparagraph JJ from the same 129,
20   applies to Exhibit FO -5521.54, and his reply is at FO-5521.55,
21   which we would move to introduce both of those.
22             THE COURT:  All right.  FO-5521.54 and .55 are both in.
23             (Government's Exhibits Nos. FO-5521.54 and FO-5521.55
24   were received in evidence.)
25             THE COURT:  There was no objection?

 1             MR. MAC MAHON:  No objection, Your Honor.
 2             THE COURT:  All right.
 3             MR. NOVAK:  On July 11th of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui received
 4   an e-mail at his Internet address of pilotz123@hotmail.com from
 5   Matt Tierney of Pan Am Academy.  "Zac, I need a shipping address
 6   of your manuals.  Operations wants to send them on Thursday, July
 7   the 12th.  Please e-mail or call with the address on Thursday.
 8   Thank you, Matt Tierney."
 9             Mr. Moussaoui responded then with the next e-mail,
10   saying "Hi, this is my temp address, Moussaoui, Zacarias, 209A
11   Wadsack Drive, Norman, Oklahoma 73072-7213."
12             Paragraph KK, the next stipulation.  I will just publish
13   to the jury.
14             On July the 16th at 2001, Mr. Moussaoui received a
15   Federal Express package from Pan Am in Eagan, Minnesota.
16             The next stipulation, Your Honor, is stipulation 135 and
17   a supplemental stipulation that we filed with the Court which we
18   have now marked ST-2.  It is stipulation 135.  And the attendant
19   exhibit is FO-5521.57, which we would also move into evidence.
20             THE COURT:  All right.  Now, are you moving in
21   stipulation 2 as an exhibit as well?
22             MR. NOVAK:  Yes.
23             THE COURT:  All right.
24             MR. NOVAK:  It is ST-2.  There are two supplemental
25   stipulations.

 1             THE COURT:  ST-2 is in evidence, as is FO-5521.57.
 2             (Government's Exhibit Nos. ST-2 and FO-5521.57 were
 3   received in evidence.)
 4             MR. NOVAK:  This stipulation provides, Your Honor, on
 5   July 16th of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui sent an e-mail from
 6   pilotz123@hotmail.com to Alan McHale at Pan Am Flight Academy,
 7   that stated:  "Hi.  I just received the training manuals.  Thank
 8   you.  Could you tell me what chapter I should read and what should
 9   be memorized in order to prepare for the SIM?  Thank you."
10             The next stipulation, Your Honor, is subparagraph LL of
11   stipulation 129 of ST-1, and the attendant exhibit there is
12   Exhibit FO-5521.58, which we would move into evidence.
13             THE COURT:  All right.  That one is also in.
14             (Government's Exhibit No. FO-5521.58 was received in
15   evidence.)
16             MR. NOVAK:  And that provides on July the 16th of 2001,
17   Mr. Moussaoui received an e-mail at pilotz123@hotmail.com from
18   Alan McHale at the Pan Am Flight Academy that stated:  "Could I
19   please have your full name and what airplane you will be training
20   on so I can look it up and give you the correct information?
21   Thank you, Alan."
22             The next stipulation, Your Honor, is subparagraphs MM,
23   and the attendant exhibit is Exhibit FO-5521.59, which we would
24   offer.
25             THE COURT:  All right, that's in.

 1             (Government's Exhibit No. FO-5521.59 was received in
 2   evidence.)
 3             MR. NOVAK:  That stipulation provides on July the 21st
 4   of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui sent an e-mail from pilotz123@hotmail.com
 5   to Alan McHale at Pan Am Academy that states:  "Hi.  My name is
 6   Moussaoui Zacarias.  I spoke to you on the phone last week and I
 7   did receive the four manual relating to the training on the
 8   B747-400.  I am the person who will get a custom training on the
 9   operating manual volume 1 from the introduction to the operating
10   procedure (checklist, preflight) and the all SOPA are missing.
11   Why?  Could you send it to me on express because, like you explain
12   to me, I should get familiarized with SOPA and SMAC.  At the
13   moment I study the SMAC but I need the rest.  Thank you for your
14   help.  Mrs. Zac."
15             The next stipulation, Your Honor, is subparagraphs NN of
16   129 and the attendant exhibit is FO-5521.60.
17             THE COURT:  All right.  That's in.
18             MR. NOVAK:  That we would offer.
19             THE COURT:  That's in evidence.
20             (Government's Exhibit No. FO-5521.60 was received in
21   evidence.)
22             MR. NOVAK:  That stipulation reads as follows:  On July
23   23rd of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui received an e-mail at his Internet
24   address from Alan McHale at Pan Am Flight Academy that stated:
25   "Mr. Moussaoui Zacarias, I have e-mailed this to Michael, my

 1   technical publications manager, and he will get you a copy of the
 2   missing materials.  Thanks, Alan."
 3             The next stipulation is subparagraph OO, and the
 4   attendant exhibit is Exhibit FO-5521.61, which we would offer.
 5             THE COURT:  That's in.
 6             (Government's Exhibit No. FO-5521.61 was received in
 7   evidence.)
 8             MR. NOVAK:  The stipulation provides:  On July the 25th
 9   of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui received an e-mail at his Internet address
10   from Matt Tierney at Pan Am Flight Academy that stated:
11   "Zacarias, please call me, I have your training schedule, Matt
12   Tierney."
13             The next stipulation is subparagraphs PP and that reads
14   as follows:  On or about July 30th of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui received
15   a Federal Express package from Pan Am in Eagan, Minnesota.
16   Included in this package was Mr. Moussaoui's simulator training
17   schedule.
18             If I could publish stipulation, subparagraph QQ, along
19   with the attendant exhibit of MN-617.2, which I offer.
20             THE COURT:  MN-617.2?
21             MR. NOVAK:  Yes, Your Honor.
22             THE COURT:  That's in.
23             (Government's Exhibit No. MN-617.2 was received in
24   evidence.)
25             MR. NOVAK:  On July the 31st of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui

 1   received an e-mail at his Internet address, pilotz123@hotmail.com,
 2   from Dana Wilson, the flight training administrator for Pan Am
 3   International Flight Academy, and it included the following
 4   schedule for Mr. Moussaoui's training.
 5             It read:  "Hello, Matt Tierney asked me to e-mail you
 6   the schedule that we put together for your 747-400 training.  I
 7   will be the scheduler working with you so you can direct any
 8   questions to me.  The schedule is as follows:  First, Monday,
 9   August the 13th, 1200, NATCO building, orientation with Michael
10   Guess, 1300 to 1700 hours.  That's a lecture.  The location is Pan
11   Am Commons, Room E, and the instructor is Clancy Prevost.
12             Tuesday, August 14th, 1300 to 1700, lecture, again the
13   location Pan Am Commons, Room E, with the instructor being Clancy
14   Prevost.  Wednesday, August 15th, off.  Thursday, August 16th,
15   1800 to 2100, 1700 brief, NATCO building, 747-400 Sim Number 7,
16   instructor Richard Lamb.
17             Friday, August 17th, day off.  Saturday, August 18th
18   then, from 1800 to 2100, 1700 brief, NATCO building, 747-400 Sim
19   Number 7, instructor Richard Lamb.  And then on Sunday, August the
20   19th, 1800 to 2100, 1700 brief, in the NATCO building, for 747-400
21   Sim Number 7, instructor Richard Lamb.  The last day, Monday,
22   August the 20th, 1800-2100, 1700 brief, NATCO building, 747-400
23   Sim Number 7, instructor Richard Lamb.
24             There is also some instructions about where to go for
25   the hotel.

 1             To move on to exhibit RR -- attendant Exhibit Number
 2   FO-5521.75, which I would offer.
 3             THE COURT:  That's in.
 4             (Government's Exhibit No. FO-5521.75 was received in
 5   evidence.)
 6             MR. NOVAK:  On August the 8th of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui
 7   sent an e-mail from pilotz123@hotmail.com to Alan McHale that
 8   stated:  "Hello, could you give me a list of motel close to your
 9   location.  I will be arriving in Minneapolis by car on Saturday.
10   Thank you, Mrs. Zacarias (custom training)."
11             Moving to stipulation subparagraph SS.  On August the
12   9th of -- I'm sorry, and attendant Exhibit FO-5521-76, which we
13   would offer.
14             THE COURT:  Dash or point?
15             MR. NOVAK:  I'm sorry, point.
16             THE COURT:  Okay, it is in.
17             (Government's Exhibit No. FO-5521.76 was received in
18   evidence.)
19             MR. NOVAK:  Let me do this again, FO-5521.76.  That's
20   what happens when you sit too long.
21             On August the 9th of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui sent an e-mail
22   from pilotz123@hotmail.com to B. Toutgas at Pan Am, that said:
23   "Here is my fax number, 405-364-7209.  Can you send it this
24   morning because I will be leaving very soon.  Thanks for your
25   help.  P.S.:  Motel for two persons, that's what I am looking

 1   for."
 2             Subparagraph TT and the attendant exhibit of FO-5521.78,
 3   which we would offer.
 4             THE COURT:  It is in.
 5             (Government's Exhibit No. FO-5521.78 was received in
 6   evidence.)
 7             MR. NOVAK:  On August the 12th of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui
 8   sent an e-mail from pilotz123@hotmail.com to Matt Tierney at Pan
 9   Am Academy that said:  "Hi, I am in Minneapolis.  I will go
10   tomorrow to the center as you described in the schedule that you
11   send to me.  Thank you."
12             And then stipulation EEE which provides as follows, Your
13   Honor.  Exhibit -- strike that.
14             On August the 13th of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui began training
15   at the Pan Am International Academy, at 2600 Loan Oak Point in
16   Eagan, Minnesota.  Mr. Moussaoui paid $6800 in cash to Pan Am
17   International on August the 13th, 2001.  When it became readily
18   apparent to the instructors that Mr. Moussaoui lacked the minimal
19   skills for the training, the training schedule previously set
20   forth by Pan Am was abandoned.
21             Judge, we have a series of the Pan Am records which have
22   certified declarations to them, and if I haven't already
23   introduced them, I am just going to move for them all right now
24   and read off the numbers if I might.
25             THE COURT:  Just do it slowly.

 1             MR. NOVAK:  MN-150.
 2             THE COURT:  Go ahead.
 3             MR. NOVAK:  Is a declaration for Exhibits 151 through
 4   156, which we would move all of those in.
 5             THE COURT:  All right.  So MN-150 and 151 through 156
 6   are in.
 7             (Government's Exhibits Nos. MN-150 through MN-156 were
 8   received in evidence.)
 9             MR. MAC MAHON:  No objection.
10             THE COURT:  It has all been stipulated to.
11             MR. MAC MAHON:  Yes.
12             MR. NOVAK:  We also have a declaration for Exhibit
13   MN-515, which we would offer as well.
14             THE COURT:  515 as well.
15             (Government's Exhibit No. MN-515 was received in
16   evidence.)
17             MR. NOVAK:  And we would call Clancy Prevost.
19             MR. NOVAK:  May I proceed, Your Honor?
20             THE COURT:  Yes, sir.
21                       DIRECT EXAMINATION
22   BY MR. NOVAK:
23   Q.   Good morning, sir.  Can you state your full name, spelling
24   both your first and last names.
25   A.   Clarence Earl Prevost, P-r-e-v-o-s-t, Clarence.

 1   Q.   I'm sorry, go ahead.
 2   A.   My nickname is Clancy.
 3   Q.   Okay.  Do you want to spell Clancy?
 4   A.   C-l-a-n-c-y.
 5   Q.   Mr. Prevost, how old are you?
 6   A.   68.
 7   Q.   And what do you do for a living?
 8   A.   I'm a simulator flight instructor.
 9   Q.   And are you also a pilot?
10   A.   I used to be a pilot for Northwest Airlines.
11   Q.   And when did you become a pilot?
12   A.   I enlisted in the Navy in 1963 and learned to fly in the
13   Navy.
14   Q.   Okay.  And how long were you in the Navy?
15   A.   Five years.
16   Q.   Why don't you try to keep your voice up a little, maybe pull
17   the microphone a little bit closer.  Sorry, you were in the Navy
18   for how long?
19   A.   Five years.
20   Q.   And when you left the Navy, what was your rank?
21   A.   Lieutenant.
22   Q.   And while you were in the Navy, were you a pilot during the
23   entire time?
24   A.   Yes, I was.
25   Q.   And could you describe for the ladies and gentlemen what you

 1   did as a pilot in the Navy?
 2   A.   I was in the squadron VW-4, which was the Hurricane Hunters.
 3   I flew WC-121 aircraft, which is the old Super G Constellation.
 4   Q.   Okay.  And approximately how many hours of flight time did
 5   you have while a member of the United States Navy?
 6   A.   2,000.
 7   Q.   All right.  Now, when you left the Navy in 1968, could you
 8   tell us where you went to work?
 9   A.   I left -- I left the Navy in July of '68 and started at
10   Northwest Airlines August 8th, 1968.
11   Q.   And where is Northwest Airlines located at?
12   A.   Minneapolis, Minnesota.
13   Q.   And when you started at Northwest Airlines, could you tell us
14   what was your job?
15   A.   I started as a flight engineer on the 727 and progressed
16   along in the various seats of the aircraft that Northwest Airlines
17   was flying at the time.
18   Q.   Rising to what rank at the end?
19   A.   At the end I was certified as captain on the 727, the DC-10
20   and the 747-400.
21   Q.   And you served as a pilot then for -- well, you left
22   Northwest when?
23   A.   I lost my FAA medical in 1992, and I medically retired in
24   1992.
25   Q.   Do you want to tell the folks why it is you had to take a

 1   medical retirement?
 2   A.   I was diagnosed -- my last flight was Christmas Eve 1991,
 3   then I was diagnosed in the first part of January with a brain
 4   tumor.
 5   Q.   And did you have to have brain surgery then as a result of
 6   that?
 7   A.   I had brain surgery.
 8   Q.   And that's the reason why you lost your medical clearance?
 9   A.   Yes.
10   Q.   All right.  During those approximately 24 years that you
11   worked for Northwest Airlines, approximately how many hours of
12   flight time did you have as a pilot there?
13   A.   I never kept a logbook.  I kept my pay sheets, which had the
14   time on them, but I had somewhere between 10- and 15,000 hours.
15   Q.   Okay.  Now, after your brain surgery and you healed, at some
16   point did you go back to work?
17   A.   Yes.  In 1998 I went up to a company, a subsidiary company of
18   Northwest Airlines called CrueSource, who did their contract
19   training at the NATCO Training Center in Eagan, Minnesota and
20   applied for a job, and they hired me.
21   Q.   As what?
22   A.   As a DC-10 pilot instructor.
23   Q.   All right.  Now, you talked about NATCO.  Do you want to tell
24   the folks what NA TCO stands for?
25   A.   NATCO is an acronym for the Northwest Airlines Aerospace

 1   Training Center.
 2   Q.   Okay.  Where is that located at?
 3   A.   Eagan, Minnesota.
 4   Q.   Is that where Northwest Airlines trains its own pilots?
 5   A.   Yes.
 6   Q.   Now, in addition to -- and they train them on simulators; is
 7   that correct?
 8   A.   Simulators.
 9   Q.   Which we will talk about that in a minute.
10             But in addition to Northwest raining their own pilots,
11   do they sell time on their simulators to other companies?
12   A.   Yes, they do.
13   Q.   And was that that company you work for, CrueSource?
14   A.   CrueSource did the contract training, the North -- that came
15   to Northwest Training Center for instruction on different
16   particular airplanes.
17   Q.   All right.  So basically you are teaching non-Northwest
18   pilots on the Northwest equipment; is that right?
19   A.   That's right.
20   Q.   And you worked for CrueSource for how long?
21   A.   The Northwest contract business was bought by the Pan
22   American Flight Academy and the transition was in August or, I'm
23   sorry, about May of 2000.
24   Q.   And when it was turned over to Pan Am Flight Academy, did you
25   join Pan Am as well?

 1   A.   Yes.  We just all were on the second floor and we walked
 2   downstairs from the north -- from the CrueSource offices to the
 3   Pan Am offices.
 4   Q.   All right.
 5   A.   It was the same instructors.
 6   Q.   All right.  So you did the same thing?
 7   A.   Same thing.
 8   Q.   Just different company then; is that right?
 9   A.   Correct.
10   Q.   Still working off the same Northwest simulators in the same
11   NATCO building; is that right?
12   A.   Yes.
13   Q.   And you worked at Pan Am from 2000, you said, what, the
14   spring of 2001?
15   A.   Yes.
16   Q.   Until when?
17   A.   I left in October of 2004.
18   Q.   Okay.  If we could, with Mr. Wood's help, if we could show
19   the witness Exhibits MN-111, 112, and 113.
20             THE COURT:  Is there any objection to those exhibits?
21             MR. TROCCOLI:  No objection, Your Honor.
22             THE COURT:  All right.  So they are all in.
23             (Government's Exhibits Nos. MN-111, MN-112, and MN-113
24   were received in evidence.)
25             MR. NOVAK:  Thank you, Judge.  While Mr. Wood is looking

 1   for them then, may we just display them on the screen then, Judge?
 2             THE COURT:  Yes.
 3   BY MR. NOVAK:
 4   Q.   If you want to take a look at the television monitor next to
 5   you, Mr. Prevost.
 6   A.   All right.
 7   Q.   Do you want to tell us what it is on Exhibit MN-11 that we're
 8   looking at?
 9   A.   That's the sign that's out in front of the NATCO Training
10   Center.
11   Q.   Okay.  If we can go to Exhibit 112, please.  What are we
12   looking at there, Mr. Prevost?
13   A.   That's the NATCO Training Center.
14   Q.   Okay.  And then in Exhibit 113, if we can display that on the
15   screen as well.
16   A.   That's the front door of NATCO.
17   Q.   And is the Pan Am Flight Academy located within that
18   building; is that right?
19   A.   When they bought the contract training, their offices were on
20   the first floor, as you walk in the front door to the right.
21   Q.   If we can put that down, thank you.
22             Now, you told us, Mr. Prevost, that as the
23   subcontracting company which then -- which became Pan Am, that you
24   taught non-Northwest pilots how to fly; is that right?
25   A.   That's correct.

 1   Q.   And could you tell us generally who your students were?
 2   A.   They were -- the major airlines all have their own training
 3   centers and simulators, so these would be second and third-tier
 4   and foreign carriers that did not have simulators and needed to
 5   contract with somebody else who had them for the training for
 6   their pilots.
 7   Q.   Okay.  And would those second and third tier, the foreign
 8   airlines, generally be the ones that are paying for that training?
 9   A.   Yes.
10   Q.   I gather this training is rather expensive; is that right?
11   A.   I had an individual came through that I instructed on the
12   747-400 from KAL, a Russian, and he paid $29,000 for the type
13   rating.
14   Q.   Now, what type of planes were you instructing on at the Pan
15   Am Academy?
16   A.   At the Pan Am Academy when I was first hired by them I did
17   DC-10 training, but not at NATCO, down at the American Airlines
18   facility in Dallas.  But when I started instructing at NATCO, I
19   only instructed on the 747-400.
20   Q.   For those of us that are not familiar with jet airplanes, I
21   want you to -- actually, a couple of questions to see if you can
22   explain it to us in terms of the progression in terms of the more
23   advanced jets.  And I want to start with a 727 airline.  Can you
24   tell us basically chronologically when did that jet come into
25   play?

 1   A.   That was late 1950s technology.  And it was literally the
 2   last airplane that you hand-flew.  It did not have a flight
 3   guidance system.
 4   Q.   Everything was manual; is that correct?
 5   A.   Everything was manual.
 6   Q.   If we were to analogize that to driving a car, that's kind of
 7   like driving cars with standard transmissions; is that right?
 8   A.   Yes.
 9   Q.   Now, could you tell us the difference between a 727 and a
10   747-400 jet?
11   A.   The 727 -- the 747-400 was a computer airplane.  And it was
12   meant to be flown by the computer and it was meant to be flown by
13   a flight guidance system.  It was not meant to be hand-flown.
14   Q.   And when did that come around, basically?
15   A.   I think that the 400 came on the line somewhere around 1988,
16   plus, maybe minus a year, but certainly 1988.
17   Q.   All right.
18             MR. NOVAK:  If we might, Your Honor, I would like to
19   show the witness Exhibit MN-105 if we could.
20             THE COURT:  Any objection?
21             MR. TROCCOLI:  No objection, Your Honor.
22             THE COURT:  All right.  It is in.
23             (Government Exhibit No. MN-105 was received in
24   evidence.)
25             MR. NOVAK:  May we bring it up on the screen then for

 1   the witness?
 2             THE COURT:  Yes.
 3   BY MR. NOVAK:
 4   Q.   Can you tell us what we're looking at there, Mr. Prevost?
 5   A.   That's the 747-400.
 6   Q.   All right.  And now you were talking about the fact that it
 7   is much more advanced in terms of computer-wise.  Could you tell
 8   us exactly what operates the flight guidance system in a 747-400?
 9   A.   There are two computers, in-flight computers.  You program
10   the computer and the flight guidance system will take the program
11   that you input to the computer, which is a navigation program, and
12   if you choose, you can have the airplane fly once it is in the air
13   from where you leave to where you are going.
14             However, while you are in the air, if you choose to not
15   have the navigation computer engaged, then when you are going to
16   approach an airport, you can revert to the mode control panel and
17   put pilot inputs into the mode control panel, still part of the
18   computer flight guidance system, but then the pilot can input the
19   mode control panel and have the airplane do what he wants it to
20   do.
21   Q.   We're going to talk about the mode control panel here in a
22   second, but do pilots refer to the 747-400 as having the glass
23   cockpit?
24   A.   It is glass, yes.
25   Q.   Do you want to tell us what the meaning of that is?

 1   A.   The older airplanes have analog dials, we call them steam
 2   gauges.  And we have pointers.  They have calibrated gauges that
 3   have pointers that tell you what -- basically information you
 4   receive, you receive from the pointer.
 5             Glass is -- there are no steam gauges.  There are CRT
 6   screens, cathode ray tubes, and everything is presented on a
 7   cathode ray tube, which is a television screen ostensibly.  And
 8   all the information is displayed digital and on the TV.
 9   Q.   So I guess the best way to analogize between the difference
10   between the plane, the 747-400 with the mode control panel, the
11   glass cockpit versus the old 727 is the difference between having
12   a digital watch and having the old dial face watch, basically; is
13   that right?
14   A.   That's correct.
15   Q.   Now, going back to the mode control panel for a second, if
16   Mr. Wood would be kind enough to get us a chart, the big chart,
17   MN-101.
18             THE COURT:  Are you going to be moving MN-101 into
19   evidence?
20             THE COURT:  Yes, Your Honor.
21             THE COURT:  Is there any objection to that?
22             MR. TROCCOLI:  No objection.
23             THE COURT:  It is in.
24             (Government's Exhibit No. MN-101 was received in
25   evidence.)

 1             MR. NOVAK:  I am also going to be moving 102 and 103 as
 2   well in a second.
 3             THE COURT:  Any objection to those?
 4             MR. TROCCOLI:  No, Your Honor.
 5             THE COURT:  Then they are in as well.
 6             (Government's Exhibit No. MN-102, MN-103 were received
 7   in evidence.)
 8             MR. NOVAK:  Thank you, Judge.
 9   BY MR. NOVAK:
10   Q.   If we can start with MN-101.  That's it, Mr. Wood.  Thank
11   you.
12             Mr. Prevost, could you see the exhibit MN-101 from where
13   you are sitting there?
14   A.   Sort of.
15             THE COURT:  You need to put it back maybe, Mr. Wood,
16   pull it back about six inches.  There you go.
17             MR. NOVAK:  Thank you, Mr. Wood.
18   Q.   First of all, Mr. Prevost, are we looking at the portion of
19   the 747-400 that depicts the mode control panel?
20             THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  I don't think all the jurors can
21   see the exhibit.  It has been to be turned better.  Can everybody
22   in the box see it?
23             MR. NOVAK:  Maybe we can hold it up behind Mr. Prevost
24   for a second, if Mr. Wood wouldn't mind doing that.  I am only
25   going to use this for a second, Judge.

 1             THE COURT:  All right, okay.
 2   BY MR. NOVAK:
 3   Q.   Could you just, again, Mr. Prevost, does that depict what a
 4   mode control panel looks like in a 747-400?
 5   A.   The whole picture is called the forward instrument panel.
 6   The mode control panel is up here on what we call the glare shield
 7   panel.  This is the mode control panel on the top.
 8   Q.   All right.  And the mode control panel, does that allow a
 9   pilot to basically fly the entire plane while it is in the air?
10   A.   Yes, you never have to hand-fly it.
11   Q.   Is there anything on the -- any action that you have to take
12   with a plane that you cannot take with a mode control panel?
13   A.   You cannot make a takeoff on the automatics, and the only --
14   after the airplane is in the air, the only thing you have to do
15   manually is raise and lower the flaps and raise and lower the
16   gear.
17   Q.   So basically if somebody knew how to operate the mode control
18   panel, once that plane is in the air, they could run that plane;
19   is that right?
20   A.   That's correct, all the way to a landing and to a roll-out
21   and to a stop.
22             MR. NOVAK:  If Mr. Wood could be kind enough to just
23   bring forward for a moment MN-102, one of the two bigger ones.
24   BY MR. NOVAK:
25   Q.   While he is doing that, I will just ask you very briefly,

 1   Mr. Prevost, are you also familiar with what a mode control panel
 2   looks like in a 757-400?
 3   A.   Cursorily, except I know they are the same from -- I have
 4   been in a 757 cockpit, and it is a Boeing airplane.
 5   Q.   I'm sorry, showing you Exhibit 102, is that, does that depict
 6   among other things the mode control panel for a 757?
 7   A.   It is a two-engine airplane.  And the fact that the CRT
 8   screens are vertical, I would say that that's a 757.
 9   Q.   Okay.  And would basically -- other than the screens being
10   one on top of each other instead of to the side, are the mode
11   control panels the same between the 757 and the 747?
12   A.   Yes, right.
13   Q.   And could we bring up the next exhibit, 103, the other chart.
14   And I will just ask you, Mr. Prevost, does that depict a mode
15   control panel for a 767-400?
16   A.   It is a two-engine airplane and it has the vertical screens
17   and, yes, it looks like a 767.
18   Q.   Okay.  The mode control panel, that's the jiggers there in
19   the middle; is that right?
20   A.   Yes, on the glare shield panel on the top of the forward
21   instrument panel.
22   Q.   And is that essentially the same as the 747-400 as well?
23   A.   There is only one button that's different, but it is the
24   same.
25   Q.   All right.  We can put that down.  Thank you, Mr. Wood, for

 1   your help.
 2             So, Mr. Prevost, if somebody could operate a mode
 3   control panel for a 747-400, would they necessarily then be able
 4   to operate the mode control panel for a 757 as well as a 767?
 5   A.   Yes.
 6   Q.   All right.  Now, going back to the training that you all do
 7   out there in the Pan Am Academy, do you train your students on
 8   actual planes or do you train them on simulators?
 9   A.   Simulators only.
10   Q.   And why is it that you train the students on just simulators
11   and not airplanes?
12   A.   When the simulator was invented, which I would guess
13   somewhere about the mid-'70s, we used to train on airplanes in the
14   early '70s and the '60s but you have to take the airplane out of
15   service.  And that means it is not generating any revenue.  And
16   also you are burning a lot of gas because the normal training
17   flight is four hours.
18             And so they stopped, when the simulator was invented,
19   they stopped training in the airplane because the simulator is the
20   exact feel of an airplane and you don't need to train in the
21   airplane.
22   Q.   So it is too expensive to fly the plane; is that right?
23   A.   Too expensive.
24   Q.   And if you can fly a simulator, can you fly the plane?
25   A.   As a matter of fact, when you are trained in the simulator,

 1   you walk from the simulator to the airplane and start work flying
 2   an airplane.
 3   Q.   Somebody can get a job, never having stepped in the actual
 4   airplane; is that right?
 5   A.   That's right.
 6   Q.   All right.  Now, in addition to the cost benefits that you
 7   described for using the simulator, is there any advantages to you
 8   as an instructor for using a simulator versus a real plane?
 9   A.   Yes, a lot.
10   Q.   Can you describe to the jury what those advantages are?
11   A.   Well, when you train in the airplane, you can't have these
12   guys going around the sky shutting engines down and setting them
13   on fire.  People on the ground are to be protected.
14             And in the simulator, you can put an engine on fire, you
15   can do any emergency that can possibly happen to an airplane
16   without jeopardizing anybody's life or the safety of an airplane.
17   Q.   You get your students in a worst case scenario, without
18   worrying about them getting killed; is that right?
19   A.   You can crash the simulator and take your lunch box and go
20   home.
21   Q.   Okay.  Now, approximately, the Pan Am Flight Academy using
22   the NATCO facility has access to a number of simulators; is that
23   correct?
24   A.   Yes.
25   Q.   And do you want to tell the jury approximately how many

 1   simulators that you-all would have access to?
 2   A.   I never counted them, but there would be somewhere between 15
 3   and 35, 30 or 35 simulators.
 4   Q.   And is there a number of simulators for each of the various
 5   types of planes, like so many for a 747-400, so many for a 757,
 6   '67 and so forth?
 7   A.   Whatever airplane Northwest flew, they would have two
 8   simulators for each of their type of airplanes.
 9   Q.   So you are familiar with the fact that they had at least two
10   simulators then for the 747-400?
11   A.   There were two simulators, yes.
12   Q.   And was one of those simulators known as simulator number 7?
13   A.   Yes.
14             MR. NOVAK:  Your Honor, I would move, I would ask
15   Mr. Wood to accumulate Exhibits 114 through 128, which I would
16   offer.
17             THE COURT:  Any objection?
18             MR. TROCCOLI:  No objection, Your Honor.
19             THE COURT:  All right.  These have no letters in front
20   of them?
21             MR. NOVAK:  I'm sorry, MN-114 to 128.
22             THE COURT:  Okay, MN-114 to 128 are all in.
23             (Government's Exhibit No. MN-144 to MN-128 were received
24   in evidence.)
25   BY MR. NOVAK:

 1   Q.   And I will ask you, before we start showing you the
 2   photographs on the screen, Mr. Prevost, when we're talking about
 3   simulators, are we talking about looking at a little video game
 4   like on your television screen or are we talking about something
 5   quite different?
 6   A.   No, these are million dollar pieces of engineering,
 7   multi-million dollar.  They are expensive and they absolutely
 8   replicate an airplane in flight.
 9   Q.   And are they able to recreate the movement of a plane?
10   A.   To exactness.
11   Q.   So for those of us who are not too fond of flying, if I were
12   to get in that simulator and we were to start flying, would I get
13   motion sickness, perhaps?
14   A.   You could.  They can program turbulence.
15   Q.   I would feel just as if I were in the plane; is that right?
16   A.   Yes.
17   Q.   If we can start off with Exhibit MN-114 on the screen.  We're
18   going to go through these series of photographs, Mr. Prevost, and
19   I am going to ask you if you would be kind enough to tell the jury
20   what it is that we're looking at on the screen?
21   A.   That's a simulator.
22   Q.   Okay.  Is that the outside of simulator, particularly
23   simulator number 7?
24   A.   It is.  If on the screen is the same one I have in the little
25   notebook here.

 1   Q.   You can take my word for it that we're not going to trick
 2   you.  We're going to put the real photos up there.
 3   A.   Okay, that's number 7.
 4   Q.   All right.  And to the next exhibit, MN-115.
 5   A.   That's the simulator and the depiction of the hydraulic
 6   jacks, which provide the motion that you would feel inside the
 7   simulator, simulating flight.
 8   Q.   And MN-116?
 9   A.   That's a forward picture of the simulator.  And it looks,
10   since it is tilted, it is in what we call on-motion.  It is up on
11   its jacks.
12   Q.   Okay.  MN-117?
13   A.   That's the ramp that goes into the simulator.
14   Q.   MN-118?
15   A.   As you walk into the simulator down the ramp, the access
16   ramp, you are looking inside at the cockpit.
17   Q.   The next one, MN-118, I believe?
18   A.   You have walked through the door and now you are inside the
19   simulator, and that's the 747-400 cockpit.
20   Q.   Now, could you tell us is there any difference between that
21   cockpit and what a real 747-400 cockpit would look like?
22   A.   The difference is the TV screen on the left is the instructor
23   panel where he puts in malfunctions and abnormals and anomalies
24   and programs the training flight.  In a real 747-400, that would
25   not be there, and there would be what they call a first observer

 1   seat behind the captain's chair.  And behind that seat there would
 2   be a second observer's seat on the left side of the airplane.
 3   Q.   Okay.  And then 120?
 4   A.   That's the depiction of a 747-400 control station.
 5   Q.   And where is that mode control panel that you were talking
 6   about?
 7   A.   That's on the glare shield above the CRT screens.
 8   Q.   Okay.  MN-121?  What are we looking at here?  You know, you
 9   can look at the screen.  It might be easier.
10   A.   Okay.  That's the simulator instructor's panel.
11   Q.   MN-122?
12   A.   Those are -- that is a 747-400 manual.
13   Q.   And is that manual kept within the simulator?
14   A.   Yes.  There is always in the airplane and in the simulator,
15   there is always a current set of books, manuals.
16   Q.   So that would be, if we were flying in a real 747-400, would
17   that, would the plane also have one of those as well?
18   A.   That book would be there.
19   Q.   Okay.  The next exhibit is MN-123.  What are we looking at
20   with all those buttons there?
21   A.   That's the circuit breaker panel on the, behind the pilot
22   overhead panel.  And the circuit breaker panel is just like
23   circuit breakers in your house.  If there is an electrical
24   malfunction, they trip.
25   Q.   Exhibit MN-124?

 1   A.   That's the captain's control column on the left side, left
 2   seat of the airplane.
 3   Q.   MN-125?
 4   A.   That's a CDU, which is an acronym for computer display unit.
 5   That's the keypad that programs the flight computer.
 6   Q.   MN-126?
 7   A.   That's the mode control panel.
 8   Q.   Right there on the dash, basically; is that right?
 9   A.   Yes, the top part of the picture is the pilot overhead.
10   Q.   Okay.  127, MN-127, what is that a photo of?
11   A.   That's the forward wind screen.  And in a simulator it is a
12   TV screen and actually it shows if you are flying, whatever
13   airport you are flying to, it will give you a depiction of the
14   runway and buildings and topography around the airport, kind of
15   computer -- it is sort of a computer presentation but it is
16   accurate to the airport that you are -- that's being depicted.
17   Q.   So, for example, in a photograph MN-128 then, if we were
18   sitting in the pilot's chair and looking out the window, so to
19   speak, we would see some kind of generated thing like this; is
20   that right?
21   A.   Well, that's the overrun, and before the takeoff point of a
22   runway, and that's a runway.
23   Q.   Okay.  All right.  We can put the photos down and we can move
24   on.
25             Now, let me ask you this, Mr. Prevost.  Does the

 1   simulators have to be certified in any fashion?
 2   A.   The FAA inspects them once a year.
 3   Q.   And do they have to get certified for you-all to use them?
 4   A.   Yes.
 5   Q.   And what about you as an instructor, do you have to get
 6   certified in any fashion by the FAA?
 7   A.   I have to take a -- depending on the flight schools that I'm
 8   working for, I may have one check ride a year or two check rides a
 9   year, one every six months or yearly, depending on how the flight
10   school is certificated.
11   Q.   Now, could you tell us what exactly your goal is as an
12   instructor in relation to your students and describe for us the
13   level of the students that you have there?
14   A.   Well, the students that come to CrueSource or Pan Am Flight
15   Academy usually have thousands of hours.  They are looking to get
16   a better job or they are looking to upgrade within the company
17   that they are working for.  And this means usually they have come
18   to your flight school to learn how to fly a bigger airplane
19   because there would be more money.
20   Q.   So you are saying normally the students you have have
21   thousands of hours of student training or flight training?
22   A.   Yes.
23   Q.   And in general they are already professsional pilots when
24   they get there; is that right?
25   A.   They are pilots.

 1   Q.   Did you ever have anyone, before you had contact with
 2   Mr. Moussaoui, that had 55 hours of flight training?
 3   A.   No.
 4   Q.   And what's the lowest number of hours of training that you
 5   had for any of your previous students?
 6   A.   Actually the lowest number that I can remember is a fellow
 7   that came through and he had 600 hours of multi-engine.  He
 8   probably had a lot more hours of single-engine, but his -- the 600
 9   hours of multi-engine was the lowest I ever had.
10   Q.   And are you training them towards any type of FAA testing?
11   A.   Yes.  The end result of the training is they take an FAA
12   check ride, and if they pass the check ride, they get certificated
13   by the FAA to fly whatever airplane.  That means they are
14   qualified to fly in that type of airplane.
15   Q.   Is there any significance or consequence, maybe, to the
16   student if he fails his check ride?
17   A.   He gets what's called a pink slip, and he loses his job.  If
18   he can't -- he may be able to revert back to a previous airplane
19   and fly that, but he cannot fly the airplane that he is, the money
20   was spent to train him on.
21   Q.   Let me ask you this:  Is there any strike against the
22   instructor or any consequence to the instructor if one of your
23   students were to fail the FAA test?
24   A.   There is no monetary penalty towards the instructor, but if
25   your students start failing check rides one after the other,

 1   nobody would use the flight academy of which you were the
 2   instructor.
 3   Q.   So you all take -- have you ever had a student fail, by the
 4   way?
 5   A.   I have never had a student fail a check ride.
 6   Q.   So you take your training of your students pretty seriously
 7   then?
 8   A.   Extremely.
 9   Q.   Now, directing your attention to August of 2001, did you have
10   an occasion to serve as an instructor for Zacarias Moussaoui?
11   A.   I was his ground school instructor.
12   Q.   Do you recognize him in this courtroom?
13   A.   Yes, that's --
14   Q.   Could you point to him?
15   A.   That's Zacarias there.  I know him as Zac.
16   Q.   Indicating for the record that Mr. Prevost has identified the
17   defendant, please.
18             THE COURT:  Any objection?
19             MR. TROCCOLI:  No, Your Honor, we will stipulate to
20   that.
21             THE COURT:  All right.  The record will so reflect.
22   BY MR. NOVAK:
23   Q.   Let me ask you this, Mr. Prevost, looking at Mr. Moussaoui,
24   did he look like that back when he showed up at the Pan Am Flight
25   Academy?

 1   A.   He had a beard and a mustache and less facial hair, but
 2   that's Zac.
 3   Q.   Okay.  If we can put on the screen exhibit number or if we
 4   can show the witness Exhibit Number GX-2, please.
 5             THE COURT:  Any objection?
 6             MR. TROCCOLI:  No objection,.
 7             THE COURT:  All right.  It is in.
 8             (Government's Exhibit No. GX-2 was received in
 9   evidence.)
10   BY MR. NOVAK:
11   Q.   Can we bring it up on the screen then perhaps.
12             Can you tell us, Mr. Prevost, is that what Mr. Moussaoui
13   looked like when you met him?
14   A.   Yeah, he had a ball hat on, and I don't think I ever saw him
15   without his ball hat on.
16   Q.   You mean a baseball cap?
17   A.   A baseball cap.
18   Q.   You never saw him without a baseball cap?
19   A.   I don't think so.  I can't recall that I did.
20   Q.   Okay.  Could you tell us who asked you to teach
21   Mr. Moussaoui?
22   A.   Alan McHale.
23   Q.   Okay.  And who is Alan McHale?
24   A.   He was second in command at the Pan Am Flight Academy under
25   John Rosengrin.

 1   Q.   And what did Mr. McHale tell you about Mr. Moussaoui when he
 2   asked you to train him?
 3   A.   He said:  We have a student coming through that has 55 hours
 4   only of flight time and he has never solo'd an airplane and we
 5   want you to -- we want you to be his instructor.
 6   Q.   All right.  Well, having never had a student under 600 hours
 7   before, did you think that was a little bit unusual?
 8   A.   I personally thought this was a guy who had too much money,
 9   and he was just doing this as a -- like people with money go do
10   major league baseball training camps and wear the uniform.  And I
11   thought that he was just fulfilling a dream to play on it.
12   Q.   All right.  Did you learn if he had flown previously on a
13   Cessna airplane?
14   A.   Yes, a single engine airplane.
15   Q.   If we can show -- you are familiar with Cessnas; is that
16   right?
17   A.   Only that I would -- if somebody asked me what kind of Cessna
18   is that, I wouldn't be able to tell you, but if somebody said that
19   was a Cessna, if it is a single engine, I would say probably.
20   Q.   All right.  Well, let's show you Exhibit MN-108 if we could
21   show him that.
22             THE COURT:  Any objection to 108?
23             MR. TROCCOLI:  No objection, Your Honor.
24             THE COURT:  All right, it is in.
25             (Government's Exhibit No. MN-108 was received in

 1   evidence.)
 2   BY MR. NOVAK:
 3   Q.   Maybe I could be the person to say:  Does that look like a
 4   Cessna?
 5   A.   That looks like every Cessna I have ever seen.
 6   Q.   All right.  And comparing that Cessna to the 747-400 -- maybe
 7   if we can return to the screen MN-105 -- are those very different
 8   airplanes?
 9   A.   Yes.
10   Q.   Do you want to tell the jurors -- obviously we can look and
11   see one is a jet and one is not, but can you tell us basically
12   what the big difference is?
13   A.   The Cessna, of course, you have to hand-fly.  And it is --
14   there is more -- a Cessna is actually flying, when you fly a jumbo
15   jet, why, you do things that are -- let me think of the word --
16   that there is statistics that tells you how the airplane would fly
17   and you follow those numbers like when you take off, you rotate to
18   12 degrees because you know all of the dispatchers have predicted
19   because of the weight, that's the pitch angle that you rotate and
20   the airplane will fly at that.
21             A Cessna, you fly it, it flies off the runway itself.
22   The 747-400, you have to know all the numbers and all of the go-to
23   characteristics that the airplane will fly at before you even go
24   down the runway.
25   Q.   Okay.  If we can put on the screen Exhibit FO-5521.57 that we

 1   have previously introduced, which refers to an e-mail that was
 2   sent from Mr. Moussaoui to Mr. McHale.  And I am going to ask you
 3   to take a look at that e-mail, Mr. Prevost.
 4             I gather you didn't get a copy of this e-mail; is that
 5   right?
 6   A.   No, I never saw it.
 7   Q.   But let me ask you this:  Have any of your students ever
 8   asked which chapters of a manual that they should actually look at
 9   before they come to see you?
10   A.   No.
11   Q.   Should somebody that actually knows how to fly a plane, would
12   they know where to look in the book?
13             MR. TROCCOLI:  Objection, Your Honor, as to "should
14   have."  It is speculative.
15             MR. NOVAK:  I will just reword it.
16             THE COURT:  Reword the question.
17   BY MR. NOVAK:
18   Q.   In your experience over the, well, first 24 years as a pilot
19   and all your years as a flight instructor, do pilots training at
20   the level that you are instructing know where to look in the book?
21   A.   Yes, they know where to start.
22   Q.   Let's talk about the books here for a second.  If I could
23   show, we can show the witness Exhibit MN-508.1 and 508.2, which
24   are the red books there, Mr. Wood.
25             THE COURT:  Any objection to those going in?

 1             MR. TROCCOLI:  No objection, Your Honor.
 2             THE COURT:  All right.  So 508.1 and .2 are both in.
 3             (Government's Exhibit Nos. MN-508.1 and MN-508.2 were
 4   received in evidence.)
 5   BY MR. NOVAK:
 6   Q.   Do you want to tell the folks what MN-508.1 is?
 7   A.   Okay.  This is volume 1 out of three volumes.  Volume 1 is
 8   the aircraft operating manual.  It tells you the profiles for the
 9   various maneuvers that you do with an airplane like taking off and
10   landing, climbing to altitude.
11   Q.   Does it tell you how all the systems work?
12   A.   This is not a systems manual.  The system manual is volume 2.
13   Q.   Okay.  I'm sorry.  Can we flip that and go to volume 1,
14   508.1.
15   A.   Okay.  This is volume 2.  This is --
16   Q.   I'll tell you what.  Let's go back and let's start all over
17   again.  Let's start with volume 1.
18   A.   Okay.
19   Q.   Do you have volume 1 there?
20   A.   Yes, yes, I do.
21   Q.   What is in volume 1?
22   A.   Procedures.
23   Q.   Okay.  And to tell you what?
24   A.   How to fly the airplane.
25   Q.   Okay.  And what is in volume 2?

 1   A.   Systems.
 2   Q.   Okay.  And what is contained there?
 3   A.   There are basically four major systems on an airplane;
 4   electronic, electrical, hydraulics, fuel, and pneumatics.  And
 5   then there are subsystems off the various systems, hydraulics run
 6   the landing gear, the flight controls, the pneumatics run the
 7   air-conditioning and pressurization, so it is systems and
 8   subsystems are the mechanical makeup of the airplane.
 9   Q.   Okay.  And those books, those are the kind of books that were
10   in that picture in the simulator that was sitting on the shelf
11   there?
12   A.   That's right.
13   Q.   We can put those aside.
14             Now, Mr. Prevost, going back to the conversation you had
15   with Mr. McHale when he asked you to train Mr. Moussaoui and when
16   he told you how many hours he had, did you agree to train
17   Mr. Moussaoui?
18   A.   I did.
19   Q.   Could you tell us why it is that you agreed to do that
20   since --
21   A.   I can tell you.  I needed the money.
22   Q.   When you say you needed the money, are you there as a
23   contract employee?
24   A.   Yes.
25   Q.   And do you actually live in the same state as the Pan Am

 1   Academy?
 2   A.   No.
 3   Q.   And do you fly in for the training and fly back to the state
 4   that you live in?
 5   A.   In those days they actually would get a motel for the
 6   instructors who flew in and pay per diem, and so I would live in a
 7   motel when I was there doing an assignment.
 8   Q.   Okay.  Now, by the way, did you have any concerns about the
 9   fact that this student, Mr. Moussaoui, was not gearing his
10   training towards something that would have FAA review of at some
11   point?
12   A.   No.
13   Q.   Do generally your students try to get some kind of FAA
14   certification, though?
15   A.   Yes.
16   Q.   Now, if we can show the witness the schedule that we showed
17   earlier, Exhibit MN-617.3.  We can just put it on the screen
18   because it has already been introduced.  Thank you.
19             Now, do you recognize MN-617.3 as a Pan Am schedule for
20   Mr. Moussaoui?
21   A.   That's the format that the schedules come out.  Now, that was
22   printed on August 13th.  I had one, I think, that was earlier,
23   because as I see this, it was -- I showed up at 10:00 o'clock
24   because I was told that I was to meet him at 10:00 o'clock on
25   Monday morning.

 1             MR. NOVAK:  Okay.
 2             THE COURT:  Mr. Novak, speaking of time, it is 11:00
 3   o'clock, so we will take the morning break until 11:20.
 4             (Recess at 11:00 a.m., until 11:20 a.m.)
 5                            (Defendant and Jury in.)
 6             MR. NOVAK:  May I proceed, Your Honor?
 7             THE COURT:  Yes, sir.
 9   Q.   I think we had the schedule up on the screen here, MN-617.3.
10   Mr. Prevost, I see on the schedule that you were slated to have
11   contact with Mr. Moussaoui on Monday, August 13, and on Tuesday,
12   August 14; is that correct?
13   A.   That's correct.
14   Q.   And you were supposed to give him a four-hour lecture on each
15   day; is that right?
16   A.   It was -- I thought that I was going to have four hours or
17   maybe three in the morning, but certainly four in the afternoon.
18   Q.   Okay.
19   A.   Of each day.
20   Q.   I'm sorry?
21   A.   Of each day.
22   Q.   Okay.  And could you tell us what you intended to teach him
23   on those two days?
24   A.   I was really at sea.  I didn't know what I was going to do,
25   because for somebody to come in with that type of lack of

 1   knowledge about aircraft and aircraft systems, I knew I was in for
 2   a difficult time, and I didn't know what I was going to do.
 3   Q.   Okay.  Did you think about trying to do a ground school
 4   instruction to the defendant?
 5   A.   Would you say that one again, please?
 6   Q.   Okay.  Ground school.  Do you teach ground school?
 7   A.   I was going to teach him ground school.
 8   Q.   Okay.  Could you tell the folks --
 9             MR. NOVAK:  And we could put the schedule down off the
10   screen there, Gerard, if you would?
11   Q.   Do you want to tell the folks what ground school instruction
12   is?
13   A.   Ground school for airline people to come through is basically
14   you teach systems, aircraft systems that are particular to the
15   aircraft that they're going to learn how to fly.
16   Q.   Okay.  Now, I want to bring you to August 13.  In the
17   morning, is that when you first met the defendant, Mr. Moussaoui?
18   A.   It is.
19   Q.   And could you tell us about what time it was that you first
20   met Mr. Moussaoui?
21   A.   I went out to NATCO at, was there at probably ten in the
22   morning, probably a little earlier.  He was not there yet.  NATCO,
23   the classrooms that Pan Am used were in a remote building, so I
24   thought that he possibly might have been at the remote building.
25   I can't remember whether I went over to the remote classroom

 1   building or not, but I first met Zac back at NATCO somewhere
 2   around 10:30.
 3   Q.   And when you met Zac, was he alone, or was he with someone
 4   else?
 5   A.   He was alone.
 6   Q.   Okay.  Could you tell the folks how it was that he was
 7   dressed?
 8   A.   He had on casual attire.  He had on, like, Dockers-type
 9   trousers that were not ironed.  They weren't khaki-colored.  They
10   were some darker-type color.  He had on a sneaker-type shoe.  He
11   had on a polo shirt and a ball cap.
12   Q.   Okay.  And did he look like that photo that I showed you on
13   the screen earlier today?
14   A.   Yes.
15   Q.   Absent -- but he had a baseball cap; is that right?
16   A.   That's right.
17   Q.   Now, anything about him that made you think he was a
18   terrorist when you saw him?
19   A.   No.
20   Q.   Did he introduce himself to you?
21   A.   I think -- usually when I run into my students, I introduce
22   myself, and I, I'm sure -- I went over and probably said:  I'm
23   Clancy Prevost.  I'm your instructor.  Are you my student?
24             Because I didn't know his name.  Nobody knew his name.
25   Q.   Okay.  Did he tell you at that time he was an al Qaeda

 1   terrorist here to fly planes into buildings?
 2   A.   No.
 3   Q.   Okay.  What did he tell you that he did for a living?  Did
 4   you ask him?
 5   A.   I did ask him.  He said he was a businessman from London.  I
 6   said:  What is your business?
 7             He said:  I'm in the import/export business.
 8             And I asked him who was taking care of his business
 9   while he was gone.  He said his family.
10   Q.   Okay.  Did he tell you where he lived?
11   A.   He said he lived in London, he was raised in France, and he
12   had a French passport and a Moroccan passport.
13   Q.   Did you test his French out there a little bit?
14   A.   We were walking out of the building, and I said -- I don't
15   know why I did it -- I said:  Je parle francais un petit peux.
16             And he launched into, of course, fluent French, and I
17   said:  Well, that's enough of that.
18             (Laughter.)
19   A.   And I figured he speaks French; I don't.
20   Q.   All right.  So after those -- going back to the discussion
21   that he had about the fact that he was involved in his family
22   business, did he tell you how long -- strike that.
23             Did you ask him who was minding the shop while he was
24   away?
25   A.   I did ask him that.  I said: Well, who's taking care of your

 1   business?
 2             He said:  Family.
 3   Q.   All right.  Did he tell you if he had any time concerns about
 4   how long he could be away as a result of that family business?
 5   A.   He did not tell me.
 6   Q.   Okay.  Did he have any discussions with you on, about how
 7   long his family --
 8   A.   I'll -- let me add to that.  He did mention that I have to --
 9   I'm going to have to get back at some point soon.
10   Q.   Back to the family business?
11   A.   Because of the family -- if that would be a time constraint.
12   He mentioned that he would have to return soon.
13   Q.   Okay.  Now, so you meet Mr. Moussaoui, and what do you do
14   with him?
15   A.   Well, I said:  Let's go over to the classroom building, and I
16   drew out the computer disk for the PowerPoint program.
17   Q.   And is that for the ground school training?
18   A.   That's for the ground school training.
19   Q.   Okay.
20   A.   And we went over to the classroom building.  And, as usual,
21   nothing was set up, so I spent some time getting the PowerPoint
22   projector and the screen set up, and actually one of the
23   secretaries was there and giving him his orientation while I was
24   trying to set up the, the PowerPoint, and we -- so that took about
25   a half-hour, I would say.

 1   Q.   Okay.  After you got set up, did you start running the
 2   PowerPoint presentation with him for ground school?
 3   A.   I did.
 4   Q.   Could you tell us -- tell the folks how that went.
 5   A.   Well, there were two things that were wrong.  The Pan Am
 6   computer disk was a -- it was a computer program on a disk, but it
 7   also required an interactive program that was a software part of
 8   that, and they didn't own the interactive program, and so I had
 9   the computer disk, and it didn't have the audio presentation, and
10   it didn't have the interactive, which would be questions and
11   answers, and so I'm kind of freelancing about the airplane from
12   the PowerPoint, and we were in -- I could tell we were in trouble
13   right away on this in regards to trying to get anything across
14   that was meaningful.
15   Q.   Now, when you say you were having problems, was it because he
16   was not a smart person or because he lacked the experience?
17   A.   He had no frame of reference whatsoever of a commercial
18   airline.
19   Q.   So you're referring to the experience part; is that right?
20   A.   Experience, yes.
21   Q.   Okay.  And so how long did you try that ground school there
22   with him?
23   A.   We talked kind of -- it wasn't so much that I made a formal
24   presentation, but I knew I was not going to accomplish anything,
25   and I'd say about after 15 minutes, I said:  Let's go to lunch.

 1   Q.   Okay.  And so did you go to lunch with him?
 2   A.   We did.
 3   Q.   Okay.  Where did you take him to lunch?
 4   A.   The NATCO Training Center has a cafeteria on the second floor
 5   that's run by Marriott, and we went over there.
 6   Q.   Okay.  How long were you at that lunch?
 7   A.   I was trying to waste time, and we were there a long time.
 8   I'm going to say two hours minimum.
 9   Q.   All right.  Trying to waste time because of why?
10   A.   I'm in trouble.  Of course, he's a customer, and you're
11   trying to not have him going along on this and going, talking to
12   your supervisors and say:  This is bogus, and so I tried to waste
13   as much time as I could because I knew that whenever we went back
14   to the classroom, that I'm not sure if anything meaningful was
15   ever going to be able to happen.
16   Q.   Okay.  So when you -- you spent a couple hours with him at
17   lunch.  What did you-all talk about?
18   A.   Well, it's fun up there.  All the pilots come in.  And I know
19   a lot of the guys because they're all Northwest guys coming in and
20   out, and some of the contract people.  So we got our food, stood
21   in the cafeteria line, and that takes 20 minutes, and I was glad.
22   And then we went over and sat at a table, and the guys, we were
23   just hanging out with the guys.
24   Q.   Okay.  How was your conversation with Mr. Moussaoui?  Did he
25   speak like a normal human being?

 1   A.   Oh, yeah.
 2   Q.   Anything that made you believe he was crazy or anything like
 3   that?
 4   A.   No, no.
 5   Q.   Okay.  And what did you-all talk about?  Anything of
 6   consequence?
 7   A.   Oh, I can't think of anything specific other than we seemed
 8   to be getting along, and maybe airplanes a little bit and people
 9   would come up, interrupt us, and say hello, and I'd be glad to see
10   them, but there was -- I don't think there was any specific
11   subject that they dwelled on.
12   Q.   After that, did you return back to the classroom with him?
13   A.   Yes.
14   Q.   All right.  And when you got back to the classroom, did you
15   have any conversation about the doors on an airplane?
16   A.   We got back to the classroom, and I think probably I put up
17   on the screen -- as a matter of fact, I know I put up on the
18   screen a mode control panel, and I was mentioning to Zac that this
19   is the only thing that's going to be meaningful to you in regards
20   to your training here, because you're never going to fly an
21   airliner for a carrier, and so you really don't care about the
22   systems, but to do what you want to do, you're going to have to
23   understand this mode control panel, so I put the mode control
24   panel up on the screen.
25   Q.   What did he tell you that he wanted to do?

 1   A.   I asked him that.  I said:  What is your goal on this?  What
 2   would you like to do?
 3             He said:  I would like to fly a 747 from Heathrow to
 4   Kennedy across the North Atlantic.
 5   Q.   Did you tell him you could do that?
 6   A.   I said you could do that in the simulator.  You'll be able to
 7   do that.
 8   Q.   Was that indeed true that you could have taught him to do
 9   that with the mode control panel?
10   A.   Yes.
11   Q.   Is it fair to say that once somebody learns that computer,
12   they're good to go in terms of flying that plane?
13   A.   They could do it.  If they went from the simulator right to
14   an airplane and used the knowledge that they got from whatever
15   simulator rides that he had paid for, he could probably have a
16   good working knowledge.  As a week or a month passed, he would
17   have less and less the more further he got away from it.
18             The answer to your question is yes.  If you know how to
19   work the mode control panel, you know how to fly a 747-400.
20   Q.   You thought you could teach him how to work that mode control
21   panel.  Is that right?
22   A.   I was not going to be his simulator instructor, but I know
23   that fellow, and yes, you can teach that, and he would get it.
24   Q.   Okay.  And that's what you told him; is that right?
25   A.   I did.

 1   Q.   Okay.  Now, I interrupted you.  You were telling a story
 2   about leading to the doors.  Can you tell us about the doors?
 3   A.   We were in there and we had gone over maybe the mode control
 4   panel for a while, and it might be now around 3:30 or somewhere
 5   around there, and probably had discussed that for a half-hour, and
 6   I said:  Well, Zac, this is what's going to happen.  I said:
 7   You're going to be on a flight, and the pilots are going to get a
 8   bad meal, and they're going to be incapacitated, and the flight
 9   attendant is going to come through the airplane, and say does
10   anybody know how to fly a 747?  And you can raise your hand.
11             And he said:  I would rather take a parachute and jump
12   out the door.
13   Q.   Okay.  And what was your response to that?
14   A.   I said:  Well, you can't get the doors open in flight.
15   They're plugged doors, and if the airplane is pressurized, it's
16   impossible to open them.  And then I said:  As a matter of fact,
17   there was a hajj charter in the Middle East --
18   Q.   What's a hajj charter?
19   A.   It's -- it's during Ramadan, I guess pilgrims go to Mecca,
20   and they call it the hajj.  And a lot of carriers around the
21   world, it's a big business thing to carry the pilgrims to Mecca,
22   and they call those hajj charters.
23   Q.   Go ahead.  I'm sorry, I interrupted you while you were
24   telling your story.
25   A.   I said:  There was a hajj charter, there was a Lockheed 1011,

 1   and they were on a runway and somebody caught the airplane on
 2   fire, the cabin on fire, caught on fire, and the flight engineer
 3   did not depressurize the airplane, and they all burned to death.
 4   Even though they were on the ground, they all burned to death.  So
 5   I said you can't even get out of a -- open the door on the ground
 6   if it's pressurized.
 7             And I said:  Hajj, Ramadan, I said, what is that?  I
 8   said:  Are you Muslim?
 9             He said:  I am nothing.
10   Q.   You changed your tone a little bit.  Did he also change his
11   tone?
12   A.   Yeah.  It was kind of like -- it was significantly different
13   to normal conversation so that I caught it, and I said:  Well, I
14   thought, I'm not going to bring that up anymore.  And I said:
15   Well, I'm nothing, either, and went on.
16   Q.   Okay.  Did that --
17   A.   But -- okay.
18   Q.   Go on.  No, tell us the "but."  That's what we want to hear.
19   A.   Man, right then I wanted to get out of that classroom
20   building, because I don't know -- you have to get an idea
21   sometime, and I don't know whether the fact that he said:  I am
22   nothing, or I started -- made the connection, Muslim, we don't
23   know anything about it, but I wanted to get out of that classroom
24   and call Alan McHale and say:  Should we be doing this?
25   Q.   Okay.

 1   A.   Do we know what we're doing here?
 2             And that's what we did.
 3   Q.   You were concerned about his legitimacy; is that right?
 4   A.   That's when it hit me, that wait a minute, should we be doing
 5   this?
 6   Q.   Okay.  So did you conclude then your session with
 7   Mr. Moussaoui?
 8   A.   I did.  I said:  Hey, let's call it a day and take the rest
 9   of the day off, and I'll meet you tomorrow.
10   Q.   Okay.
11   A.   And I went back to my motel.
12   Q.   Okay.  Now, did you -- you said that you were concerned about
13   what it is that you-all were doing.  Did you try to contact Alan
14   McHale, the No. 2 guy there?
15   A.   As soon as I got back to my motel, I called over to the
16   customer service desk and tried to be -- tried to get ahold of
17   Alan, and he was in a meeting and wasn't available, but I did get
18   ahold of one of the schedulers, Liz; I can't think of her last
19   name.
20   Q.   Okay.  And did you leave a message?
21   A.   I did.  I said:  "Liz, tell Alan this:  Tell Alan that I said
22   should we be doing this?  We don't know anything about this guy,
23   and we're teaching somebody how to throw the switches on a 747,
24   and maybe we shouldn't be doing this.  And anyway, that's my
25   message.

 1             And then she said:  Okay.  I'll give it to him.
 2             And I hung up.
 3   Q.   Now, had you planned with Mr. Moussaoui to see him again the
 4   next morning, the 14th, at 10:00 in the morning?
 5   A.   Yes.
 6   Q.   So because you were meeting Mr. Moussaoui at 10:00, did you
 7   make arrangements to go see Mr. McHale himself in person before
 8   that?
 9   A.   Yeah.  I went over there early.
10   Q.   Okay.  About what time was it that you saw Mr. McHale?
11   A.   I think about 9:00.
12   Q.   And do you want to tell us what happened when you went over
13   there?
14   A.   I walked up to the customer service desk, and Alan, you could
15   see his office behind and off to the right, and I saw him in
16   there, I said:  Hey, Alan, did you get my message?
17             And he said -- I said:  Should we be doing this?  Do we
18   know what we're doing here?
19             And he said:  He paid the money.  We don't care.
20   Q.   Okay.  And did you just take that answer, or did you push a
21   little bit?
22   A.   I said:  We'll care when there's a hijacking and he knows how
23   to throw all the switches and put them in the right position and
24   all the lawsuits starts coming in when they figure out we taught
25   him how to do this."  And I said:  Then we'll care.

 1   Q.   So were you continuing to be aggressive with the supervisor
 2   there about this?
 3   A.   That was the end of -- he was going to a meeting over at the
 4   classroom site, a supervisors' meeting.
 5   Q.   All right.  Now, did you ultimately head over towards that
 6   supervisors' meeting and come into contact with a fellow by the
 7   name of Jerry Liddell (phonetic)?
 8   A.   I did.
 9   Q.   And who's Jerry Liddell?
10   A.   Jerry Liddell is for -- I'm not sure what his actual title
11   was, but he would be like the comptroller, who would send out the
12   bills --
13   Q.   He's the money guy?
14   A.   Receive the money, pay the money, give the change.  He was
15   the money guy.
16   Q.   All right.  Did you talk to the money guy about
17   Mr. Moussaoui?
18   A.   I went into the supervisors' meeting first.  They were all in
19   there, and I said:  Hey, you guys, I think we should call the FBI
20   and get a background check.  I said:  If there's nothing wrong
21   with him, I said, he'll never even know he's been checked, but, I
22   said, if there is, then at least we've covered our six.
23             So then I walked out of the supervisors' meeting, and I
24   saw Jerry walking along over by a couple of the classrooms, and I
25   went over to him and I said:  Jerry, how did he pay for his

 1   training?
 2             And he said:  Cash.
 3             I said:  Like what?  Like a check or a credit card?
 4             And he said:  $100 bills.
 5   Q.   And what did that mean to you?
 6   A.   I'm shaking my head.  Now I'm -- now I'm upset, and this is
 7   not right.  And so I went back to the supervisor meeting and:
 8   Hey, you guys, you know how he paid for this training?  I said:
 9   With hundred dollar bills.  If he tried to get a ticket over at
10   the airport like this, they'd have him -- they'd be questioning
11   him.  So I said:  I think we should call the FBI.
12   Q.   All right.  Now, while this is going on, while you're
13   pressing upon this to the supervisors, does Mr. Moussaoui then
14   show up?
15   A.   He came along, I would say, I walked -- Alan said to me:
16   Well, you call Miami and ask them.
17             I said:  Okay.
18   Q.   What's Miami?
19   A.   The home office.
20   Q.   Okay.  Pan Am has offices all around the country; is that
21   right?
22   A.   The only ones I know are Miami and Minnesota.
23   Q.   All right.  I'll call that around the country then.  Just
24   those two spots?
25   A.   Yeah.

 1   Q.   So you wanted to call the headquarters?
 2   A.   I said:  "Okay.  I'll call.
 3             He said:  No, no, we'll call.
 4   Q.   To get guidance about what to do?
 5   A.   They are the higher-ups, so not guidance, but at least tell
 6   them what we're doing.
 7   Q.   Okay.  Now, let's go back into -- did you finish that
 8   conversation with Mr. McHale or not?
 9   A.   Yes.  When he said that, I left the instructor meeting, and I
10   went back in one more time as they were busting up and I knew I
11   wasn't interrupting anything, and I said, you know, I'm standing
12   here and telling you I think we should do this, or something like
13   that.  And then Moussaoui came in the classroom building.
14   Q.   And what did you do with Mr. Moussaoui on the 14th then?
15   A.   We went back to the classroom building, and I put on the
16   screen the mode control panel, and we talked about the mode
17   control panel.  I did not have the interactive software that went
18   with it.  So talked about the mode control panel.  It's so simple
19   that there's not a lot of time that you could spend on that, and I
20   said:  Well, let's go to lunch.
21   Q.   Okay.
22             (Laughter.)
23   Q.   You said it's so simple, so simple in terms of the operating?
24   A.   Yes.  It really has a friendly logic.
25   Q.   Okay.  And so once you go for lunch No. 2, how long did you

 1   go this time?
 2   A.   Man, I was going to stay there as long as I could stay,
 3   because we -- and we were getting along.
 4   Q.   Was he personable?
 5   A.   Very.
 6   Q.   Okay.  He talked to you the whole time?
 7   A.   Yes.
 8   Q.   Okay.  Did he attack you in any fashion or anything like
 9   that?
10   A.   Not even.
11   Q.   You said he was -- other than the other issues --
12   A.   A pretty genial guy.
13   Q.   Okay.  So you go to lunch.  What happens at lunch?
14   A.   We're hanging out with the guys again and having our lunch,
15   and there's lots of people around, and it's -- there's an energy
16   there, and it's kind of fun hanging out there, and we were
17   probably there a couple hours.
18   Q.   Could you tell the jurors what a LOFT is?
19   A.   A LOFT is, the letters are an acronym for line -- line
20   orientated flight training, line operational flight training.
21   Q.   Okay.  And a LOFT, what is it?
22   A.   It's a -- it's an airline trip.
23   Q.   Okay.
24   A.   You simulate it in a simulator, and it's a simulation of a
25   normal airplane trip.

 1   Q.   And do you do that with your students?
 2   A.   Yes.
 3   Q.   And do you -- is that kind of near the end of their training,
 4   right before they're done?
 5   A.   That is the end of their training.  That's after their check
 6   ride and before they leave.  That's the last thing they do.
 7   They've already passed their check ride.  They do the LOFT, and
 8   then they, the FAA gives them their ticket, and it's a temporary,
 9   but, I mean, then they're done.
10   Q.   Okay.
11   A.   That's the last thing.
12   Q.   Did you have a LOFT training set for later that day?
13   A.   I did.
14   Q.   And was that with a student by the name of Salim Esiktas?
15   A.   It was.
16             MR. NOVAK:  May I spell that for the record?  Your
17   Honor, it's S-a-l-i-m, last name E-s-i-k-t-a-s.
18   BY MR. NOVAK:
19   Q.   And when was it that you were supposed to have that LOFT trip
20   with Mr. Esiktas?
21   A.   Six -- there are four hours, and 6:00 his was scheduled for.
22   Q.   Okay.  And he was going to be the pilot; is that right?
23   A.   Yes, he was going to be the pilot, and they were going to
24   have a full crew, which in the case of the 400 is just one other
25   guy, who was going to sit in the right seat and support his LOFT.

 1   Q.   By the way, let's talk about the crew there, just for one
 2   second, to digress.  A full crew on a normal 747-400 includes how
 3   many people?
 4   A.   If the flight is a short flight, it's two people.
 5   Q.   The captain and the copilot?
 6   A.   Yes.
 7   Q.   And, and is there a difference in terms of the number of crew
 8   that you needed on a 747-400 versus the old 727, the older one?
 9   A.   Well, the 727 and a 747, what we'll call the classic is a
10   three-man crew:  a captain, copilot, and flight engineer.
11   Q.   Is it you need the less person because the benefits of the
12   automation, the computers there basically do everything?
13   A.   That's right.
14   Q.   Okay.  So -- I'm sorry, so who was going to be the copilot on
15   that LOFT trip with Mr. Esiktas?
16   A.   An Atlas Air Cargo captain from their Stansted, England
17   operation who was -- had passed his check ride or was in training.
18   His last name is -- Graham was his name.  I can't remember whether
19   it was his first or last.
20   Q.   We'll stick with Mr. Graham.
21             So you had scheduled that night this LOFT flight.  Was
22   it in simulator No. 7, the one I showed you the photo of earlier?
23   A.   It was, yes.
24   Q.   That simulator No. 7, by the way, was the same simulator that
25   Mr. Moussaoui was to be trained on; is that right?

 1   A.   Yes.
 2   Q.   Okay.  And Mr. Esiktas was to pilot this plane in a simulated
 3   flight from where to where?
 4   A.   The LOFT was an airplane trip from San Francisco to Los
 5   Angeles for the first two hours, and we -- the first two hours is
 6   a normal flight with no emergencies and no abnormalities.
 7   Q.   Okay.  What's the second part of the flight?  Do you kind of
 8   mix them up a little bit?
 9   A.   The second two hours, they take off from someplace to go to
10   another place.  In this case, they were going to take off from Los
11   Angeles International and fly to Honolulu, and that's the second
12   two hours.
13   Q.   Okay.  And do you program in some emergencies for them to see
14   how they react, just to get them ready?
15   A.   Yes.  The second half, you put in some emergencies to test
16   their judgment and to see how they fly the airplane and deal with
17   the emergencies en route.
18   Q.   Now, did you have any discussions about this LOFT trip that
19   you had scheduled later that evening with Mr. Moussaoui while you
20   were having one of your extended lunches?
21   A.   Not at lunch, but when we went back to the classroom building
22   over on the other side, we weren't -- we weren't getting anywhere
23   with a ground-school-type information, and so I suggested to Zac,
24   I said:  You know what I have tonight?  I have a LOFT, which is a
25   four-hour trip, and if we get permission from the students and --

 1   for you to be in the simulator with them, because that's their
 2   training period, they have to approve it, and you sit in the back
 3   and you don't ask any questions and you don't say anything, maybe
 4   they would -- you could sit in on that LOFT and just observe it.
 5   I said:  You'll get more out of that than you would out of
 6   anything we could teach here at ground school.
 7   Q.   And what did Mr. Moussaoui -- what was his reaction to that?
 8   A.   He wanted to do that.
 9   Q.   All right.  So did you set that up?  Did you talk to
10   Mr. Esiktas and the other student?
11   A.   Not until we got there.  I said, I said:  That happens on
12   Thursday at 6:00.  I said:  You come over at 5:00, and we'll ask
13   Salim, and if he approves it, why, you can sit in on it.  But
14   usually I brief the two students -- the student for an hour, and
15   so we were going to be there at 5:00.  And I told Zac:  Show up at
16   five, and we'll see if we can pull this off.
17   Q.   You said Thursday.  Did you mean Tuesday, that same day,
18   Tuesday, August the 14th?
19   A.   Oh, I told him on Tuesday that we could do this, but the LOFT
20   was on -- oh, I'm sorry, you're right, it was on Tuesday night.
21   Q.   Okay.
22   A.   Yes, that's right.  It was on Tuesday night, and we were in
23   ground school, and we stopped the ground school, and I said:
24   Let's not do this anymore.  Let's just show up this afternoon, and
25   you can be a part of the LOFT.

 1   Q.   Okay.  And everybody agreed, and he showed up later that
 2   evening then on Tuesday the 14th?
 3   A.   He came before 5:00.  It was light outside.  I walked outside
 4   to greet him, and he drove up about 4:45.
 5   Q.   You said he drove up.  What kind of car did he drive up in?
 6   A.   It was a four-door Subaru.
 7   Q.   Okay.  What color?
 8   A.   Metallic.
 9   Q.   All right.  And was he alone, or was he with somebody else?
10   A.   Somebody drove him.  I never saw him other than sitting in
11   the driver's seat.  He was of slight build, dark complected, and
12   had black hair.
13   Q.   Okay.
14   A.   From the back.
15   Q.   Did Mr. Moussaoui ever introduce you to the person who was
16   driving him in that Subaru?
17   A.   No.
18   Q.   All right.  And Mr. Moussaoui got out of the passenger side,
19   I gather; is that right?
20   A.   Yes.
21   Q.   All right.  And did you happen to notice what kind of --
22   which state the license plate was from?
23   A.   When I walked out, since I'm already suspicious and I'm
24   trying to do whatever I can to try to at least remember something
25   that might help if we were to take this any further with the FBI,

 1   I tried to memorize the license plate.
 2   Q.   Okay.
 3   A.   And I noticed that it was green and white, and I couldn't
 4   remember the letters when I talked with the FBI, but I saw that
 5   the last three numbers were 676, which were the same numbers of my
 6   number of my hotel where I stayed, so I remembered that.
 7   Q.   Okay.  And so going back then to the LOFT trip that night,
 8   Mr. Moussaoui showed up, and did you do the LOFT trip?
 9   A.   We did.
10   Q.   If we could show on the screen again Exhibit MN-119, please?
11   Now, we're back in simulator No. 7; is that right?
12   A.   Yes.
13   Q.   And could you tell us, actually, you could point this with
14   your finger, where would the captain, Mr. Esiktas, sit?  If you'd
15   put that on the screen and make a little circle?
16   A.   That's the captain's chair.
17   Q.   I'm sorry?
18   A.   That's the captain's chair.
19   Q.   Okay.  Could you indicate where Mr. Graham, the copilot, sat?
20   A.   (Indicating.)
21   Q.   And could you indicate where it is that you sat?
22   A.   (Indicating.)
23   Q.   And could you tell us where it was that Mr. Moussaoui sat?
24   A.   There is a chair, the chair on the right here, there's
25   another chair behind that, and he sat in that.

 1   Q.   Okay.  And did he -- let me just clear this.
 2             Did he -- did you give him any instructions,
 3   Mr. Moussaoui, about what it is that he was to do during this
 4   four-hour LOFT trip?
 5   A.   He couldn't say anything, and he couldn't ask any questions.
 6   He had to be quiet, because it was Salim's training, and he was
 7   not to interrupt it.
 8   Q.   And did he abide by your instructions?
 9   A.   Yes.
10   Q.   All right.  And could you tell us, did you do the LOFT trip
11   as you would any other trip?
12   A.   Yes.
13   Q.   Okay.  Nothing unusual happened during that time period?
14   A.   No.
15   Q.   Okay.  After the four-hour, the LOFT trip was over, what
16   happened after that?
17   A.   We just -- you don't debrief LOFTs because -- and you can't
18   fail them.  They're just -- even if you crash the airplane.  So we
19   all just left the simulator, and we were all going down to our
20   transportation and go home.
21   Q.   Okay.  Was that the last time that you had contact with
22   Mr. Moussaoui?
23   A.   Yes.
24   Q.   And by the way, during that -- those two days that you had
25   contact with him, including those very long lunches that you had

 1   with him, anything that led you to believe he was crazy or
 2   anything like that?
 3   A.   No.
 4   Q.   And at any time did he tell you he was a terrorist?
 5   A.   No, no.
 6   Q.   All right.  Now, by the way, at any point did you ever ask
 7   him why it was that he was not studying in Europe?
 8   A.   I did ask him that, and he said the flight schools in Europe
 9   will not let you do these things.
10   Q.   Okay.  Do you know if that's true or not?
11   A.   No, I do not know.
12   Q.   All right.  Now, the next day, Mr. Moussaoui was scheduled
13   for his day off, right, Wednesday the 15th?
14   A.   That's right.
15   Q.   Now, in the interim, did, did -- were you -- your efforts to
16   get somebody from Pan Am to call the FBI, were those fruitful?
17   Did somebody from your shop call the FBI?
18   A.   Somebody did.
19   Q.   And was that Tim Nelson?
20   A.   Yes.
21   Q.   And as a result of Tim Nelson's call to the FBI, were you
22   called by a special agent from the FBI?
23   A.   I was called by Alan McHale first, and he said, "The FBI
24   wants to talk to you.  Are you available?"
25             And I said, "Yes, I am.  I'll be at my motel here."

 1   Q.   All right.  And first of all -- and who was the agent that
 2   you spoke to?
 3   A.   Harry Samit.
 4   Q.   And did he first speak to you on the telephone on the 15th?
 5   A.   Yes, because we had to set up where we were going to meet.
 6   Q.   Okay.  And then did you meet him on the 16th?
 7   A.   Yes.
 8   Q.   Okay.  And where did you meet him?
 9   A.   I was staying at the Spring Hill Suites Motel, and we met in
10   a commons room that was right opposite the front desk.
11   Q.   And did you describe to him all the things that you've told
12   us about that you could recall about Mr. Moussaoui at that time?
13   A.   Yes.
14   Q.   And did you tell him that you had those worries about him,
15   that maybe he was going to do something with an airplane that he
16   shouldn't have been?
17   A.   I probably -- I conveyed that he should -- we should have a
18   background check here before we teach somebody how to fly a
19   commercial airliner.
20             MR. NOVAK:  I have no further questions of the witness,
21   Your Honor.
22             THE COURT:  All right.  Cross examination?
23             MR. TROCCOLI:  Thank you, Your Honor.
24                           CROSS EXAMINATION

 1   Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Prevost.
 2   A.   Hello.
 3   Q.   Good morning.  We're not yet in the afternoon period.
 4             I understand that Mr. Moussaoui was training on a
 5   747-400; is that correct?
 6   A.   Yes.
 7   Q.   Not a 757 or a 767?
 8   A.   No.
 9   Q.   And you testified earlier, I believe, that other simulations
10   are available at that facility, including those aircraft?
11   A.   Not a 767, but a 757.
12   Q.   757?
13             What is a 747-400 designed to fly?  What kind of route?
14   A.   Intercontinental.  It's an airplane that's designed to fly
15   across the oceans.
16   Q.   Such as from Heathrow to New York and back?
17   A.   Yes.
18   Q.   Harder to fly, obviously, than a Cessna?
19   A.   Way.
20   Q.   Way harder.  How many hours did it take you to learn how to
21   fly a jet of that size?
22   A.   Well, I came through the normal pipeline of flying all the
23   different airplanes that -- of the vintage:  727, 707, DC-10, so I
24   just progressed along the large airplanes, and I probably had
25   10,000 hours by the time I got there.

 1   Q.   You progressed meaning you started --
 2   A.   Started at the lowest pay scale seat and then moved along
 3   as -- it's a seniority system, and as a seat becomes available,
 4   you bid for it, and then you are awarded, and then you move along
 5   in seniority.
 6   Q.   And then after you become qualified enough to fly a, a jet, a
 7   commercial airliner, how many hours did it take you to actually
 8   learn how to operate the cockpit?
 9   A.   You do not come out of training without knowing how to run
10   that airplane.  I mean, that's -- you don't need any additional
11   hours to go to the airplane.
12   Q.   But what I'm saying is that when you actually start learning
13   how to use -- in your simulator training -- you took simulator
14   training?
15   A.   Yes.
16   Q.   And how many hours did you put in to learn how to, how to
17   operate the cockpit?
18   A.   A simulator syllabus is four 4-hour sessions in a non-motion
19   device, and then six or seven sessions, including the LOFT, of a
20   motion device.
21   Q.   And you were, you were already a pilot at that point?
22   A.   Yes.
23   Q.   Now, in the first day of Mr. Moussaoui's training, which was,
24   I think you said, August 13 -- is that correct?
25   A.   It was -- yes.  If that's a Monday, yes.

 1   Q.   Monday?  And you say you sat through some classroom
 2   instruction with Mr. Moussaoui?
 3   A.   Yes.
 4   Q.   Is that correct?
 5   A.   Yes.
 6   Q.   Now, you had a PowerPoint presentation which turned out to
 7   be, as you, I think, described it earlier, fairly useless for
 8   Mr. Moussaoui?
 9   A.   That's correct.
10   Q.   And the next day, he was scheduled for some more classroom
11   instruction in the morning?
12   A.   Yes.
13   Q.   Again, was that also a PowerPoint presentation?
14   A.   Yes.
15   Q.   You mentioned earlier, I believe, that it was not
16   interactive, meaning he could not interact directly with the
17   PowerPoint.
18   A.   That's right.
19   Q.   And that was --
20   A.   Nor could I.
21   Q.   That essentially consisted of you instructing him orally?
22   A.   Yes.
23   Q.   To the extent you were able?
24   A.   That's right.
25   Q.   It sounds like you really weren't able to make much headway

 1   with him.
 2   A.   I would agree with that.
 3   Q.   And it was, it was at that point that you suggested, well,
 4   maybe we'll try the simulator, since he's a bit of a knucklehead
 5   and can't figure out what's going on in the classroom?
 6   A.   No, not, not that he was a knucklehead.  That it would be a
 7   meaningful thing for him to do for what he was paying for.
 8   Q.   And he sat in the simulator, as you described it, it's in the
 9   back, as an observer?
10   A.   Yes.
11   Q.   Never operated the simulator himself?
12   A.   No.
13   Q.   Never pushed any buttons in the simulator?
14   A.   No.
15   Q.   Never sat behind the controls?
16   A.   No.
17   Q.   Is it safe to say, Mr. Prevost, that it was fairly obvious to
18   you at least at the end of the first day that this was a very
19   suspicious guy?
20   A.   No, I was never suspicious of Zac until I -- even when I
21   thought we should do a background check, I was not suspicious of
22   him.  I thought that there should be a protocol in place that if
23   they're going to have somebody like this come through, that, that
24   they should have some kind of a mechanism to do a background
25   check.  I was not suspicious of Zac.

 1   Q.   Well, you were concerned that his training wasn't for a
 2   legitimate purpose, correct?
 3   A.   Maybe when I heard about the $100 bills.
 4   Q.   All right.  And you were so concerned that you -- let me see
 5   if I've got this right -- on the first day, you called your
 6   manager, or a manager?
 7   A.   At the end of the first day.
 8   Q.   At the end of the first day.  That's -- you were concerned
 9   enough at that point to go to the manager and say:  I've got a
10   concern?
11   A.   Not with Zac.  Just with the fact that we had not -- that
12   we're teaching somebody that we don't know anything about to fly
13   an airplane.
14   Q.   Were you teaching anybody else there at that time?
15   A.   Good question.  I can't remember whether I had -- no, I don't
16   think I had another student ongoing at that time.
17   Q.   All right.  Now, this was -- the person you tried to speak to
18   was Mr. McHale; is that correct?
19   A.   Yes.
20   Q.   But instead, you spoke to Liz Stone?
21   A.   I don't -- if that's her last name, yes.  I spoke to Liz the
22   scheduler.
23   Q.   And what you said to the scheduler is:  Bring this up to
24   Alan -- Alan being Alan McHale?
25   A.   Yes.

 1   Q.   This is a guy we don't know anything about and we're teaching
 2   him to essentially operate a flight deck on an airplane?
 3   A.   Yes.
 4   Q.   That's what you told her?
 5   A.   That's right.
 6   Q.   All right.  And you told her that we should investigate this
 7   guy before we allow him to do this training and make sure he's
 8   okay.
 9   A.   Yes, a background check.
10   Q.   A background check.  Why, why was a background check
11   something that you wanted to have done on Mr. Moussaoui?
12   A.   I just felt that there should be a protocol that somebody
13   coming through that was not an airline pilot, that we should --
14   what would be a word? -- vet him or at least make sure that
15   everything was okay.
16   Q.   Had you ever asked that that be done for anyone else before?
17   A.   No, but you know what?  I had worked for Northwest Airlines
18   and was now involved with the Northwest Airlines contract
19   training, and everything was always professional.  This was the
20   first nonprofessional event that I had ever participated in.
21   Q.   And that -- and Mr. Moussaoui's in particular caused you some
22   concern because of that.  He came to you, as I understand it,
23   without any pilot's license, correct?
24   A.   That's right.
25   Q.   And he hadn't solo'd, correct?

 1   A.   Correct.
 2   Q.   He had -- how many hours did you say he had in the air?
 3   A.   I was told 55.
 4   Q.   55.  And the lowest number of hours for a student you had
 5   previously instructed was how many?
 6   A.   600 multi-engine.
 7   Q.   600.  And what was the next lowest student?
 8   A.   Maybe a thousand or more.
 9   Q.   A thousand.  And this is all in the first day?
10   A.   I'm -- I don't --
11   Q.   Well, I mean, you're learning this information, but you're
12   concerned enough to approach --
13   A.   No, I already knew that he only had 55 hours.  Alan McHale
14   had told me.
15   Q.   Okay.  And the next morning, now we're talking Tuesday,
16   correct?
17   A.   Yes.
18   Q.   You went back and spoke to Alan.  At that point, he was
19   available?
20   A.   Yes.
21   Q.   And you said words to the effect, we need to check into this
22   guy, correct?
23   A.   Yes.
24   Q.   And Alan's response was:  Well, you know, he's paid up, so
25   we've got to let him proceed?

 1   A.   Yes.
 2   Q.   And your -- you were so concerned, you said:  Well, you'll
 3   care when there's a hijacking and they'll wonder where he started
 4   to work all those switches and the lawsuits start rolling in.
 5   A.   That's what I said.
 6   Q.   That's what you said.
 7             So you knew at that point that there was a potential
 8   problem with Mr. Moussaoui?
 9   A.   I did not know that.  When -- the day before, when I asked:
10   Are you Muslim?  I thought, Wait a minute.  Middle East, this
11   fellow is Muslim, and maybe we should be checking this out.
12   Q.   Checking this out.  In other words -- well, at that point,
13   not just checking it out, but you recommended -- did you recommend
14   to Mr. McHale at that point that they should call the FBI?
15   A.   Yes.
16   Q.   And then having received no response from him, or no
17   acceptable response in your mind, you then went into the
18   supervisors' meeting, I think you said -- correct?
19   A.   Yes.
20   Q.   And said:  Hey, you guys should call the FBI?
21   A.   Yes.
22   Q.   I mean, even you knew at that point that law enforcement
23   should be contacted.
24   A.   Somebody should go through a background.  I felt that we
25   should do a -- before we go any further on this, we should do a

 1   background check to make sure that he is okay.
 2   Q.   You don't have any training in law enforcement, do you?
 3   A.   Zero.
 4   Q.   So you don't have any experience in actually picking out
 5   who's worthy of being called to the FBI about and who is not?
 6   A.   That's right.
 7   Q.   It's just a layperson making this, this judgment, correct?
 8   A.   Yes.
 9   Q.   And even you could figure out that at this point, Tuesday
10   morning, that the FBI should be called?
11   A.   I thought they should be called, yes.
12   Q.   And not only that, but you -- after the second time -- you
13   went into the supervisors' meeting one time, correct, and you
14   left?
15   A.   Yes.
16   Q.   And then you learned after that, I think you testified, that
17   he had paid in cash?
18   A.   Yes.
19   Q.   Is that from Mr. McHale?  You bumped into him again?
20   A.   Jerry Liddell.
21   Q.   Jerry Liddell.
22             And that he had paid in $100 bills?
23   A.   He had -- when I asked:  Well, how did he pay?  Check or
24   credit card, he said:  $100 bills.
25   Q.   And then you went back into the supervisors' meeting again?

 1   A.   Yes.
 2   Q.   Because now what?  Your hair's on fire?
 3   A.   That was an indicator, I thought.
 4   Q.   And what did you tell the supervisors?
 5   A.   You guys, do you know that he paid for his training with $100
 6   bills?  I -- that's not normal.
 7   Q.   No, no response from them, correct?
 8   A.   Alan McHale said:  Well, you call Miami.
 9             And I said:  Okay, I'll call them.  Give me the number.
10   Q.   Now, is this the third time that you recommended --
11   A.   Second.
12   Q.   Let me just put it this way.
13   A.   Sorry.
14   Q.   Is this the third time that you had recommended to somebody
15   in management that the FBI be contacted?
16   A.   Yes.
17   Q.   And after you left the supervisors' meeting the second time,
18   you then -- there was a period of time in which you waited for
19   Mr. Moussaoui to arrive?
20   A.   Yes.  I -- yes.
21   Q.   And when he arrived, you were again so concerned about him
22   that you actually tried to memorize his license plate?
23   A.   That was later.  I thought about this as I was waiting for
24   the students to arrive at the NATCO site later on that afternoon,
25   and I just walked out -- I can't tell you why I thought that.  I

 1   just did it.
 2   Q.   You just did it?
 3   A.   Yes.
 4   Q.   It was your instinct to do that?
 5   A.   Yes.
 6   Q.   And did you, did you, in fact, sit in your car and wait for
 7   him to arrive?
 8   A.   No.
 9   Q.   And just so I'm clear as to what it is that you knew about
10   Mr. Moussaoui's ability, I think you testified that you were aware
11   that he only had about 50 hours of flight training in light
12   aircraft?
13   A.   That's what I was told.
14   Q.   Aircraft that bore no -- or bear no similarity to a 747-400?
15   A.   A Cessna.
16   Q.   No pilot's license of any kind?
17   A.   Correct.
18   Q.   Paid in cash?
19   A.   Yes.
20   Q.   And you testified earlier that this was not typical, because
21   typically, at least the individuals who you instruct are people
22   that come to you with a substantial amount of flying time and an
23   employer who pays the freight?
24   A.   Sometimes individuals pay themselves, but yes, that's right.
25   Normally the airline that they're working for pays their training.

 1   Q.   Pays their training.
 2             And you testified also that you had a conversation with
 3   Mr. Moussaoui that touched upon religious matters?
 4   A.   No.  I just asked him if he was, conversationally, hajj,
 5   Ramadan, what is that?  Are you Muslim?
 6   Q.   Right.  You asked him if he was a Muslim.
 7   A.   Yes.
 8   Q.   And he responded -- can you tell us again how he responded?
 9   A.   It was a raised-voice-type response:  I am nothing.
10   Forceful, and enough that I left that subject and thought in my
11   own mind, Don't go there anymore.
12   Q.   Did that reaction when you raised the subject of his, his
13   being or not being a Muslim, was that reaction of his of concern
14   to you?
15   A.   The reaction, it was different than what normally somebody
16   would say conversationally, so there was an effect that he was
17   trying to force upon me.
18   Q.   And this was another indication at least to you that, for
19   instance, the FBI should be notified?
20   A.   It triggered a thought.  That's when I first thought we
21   should do -- that's when I got the idea that we should do a
22   background check.  We don't -- should we be doing this?  What are
23   we doing here?
24   Q.   That's when it first started?
25   A.   That's right.

 1   Q.   And it just got progressively worse as time wore on?
 2   A.   Yes.
 3   Q.   And you've told all this -- you told all this to the FBI, as
 4   I understand your testimony, in August, when they came to visit
 5   you?
 6   A.   Yes, on Wednesday.
 7   Q.   Specifically to Agent Harry Samit?
 8   A.   Yes.  There was another agent there, and also an INS guy.
 9   Q.   And you also told the FBI at that time that Mr. Moussaoui was
10   interested in flying a simulated flight from Heathrow to New York
11   City?
12   A.   Yes.
13   Q.   And that he was overly interested in the mode control panel?
14   A.   He didn't know what a mode control panel was.
15   Q.   Until you told him.
16   A.   Even when I told him, I doubt that he really knew what it
17   was.
18   Q.   So you don't think he could actually operate the thing?
19   A.   Not from that ground school he couldn't.
20   Q.   I mean, in fact, as you testified earlier, the interactive
21   PowerPoint classroom instruction that you had was not -- was not
22   interactive?
23   A.   That's right.
24   Q.   And he never actually touched any of the buttons in the
25   simulator itself?

 1   A.   That's right.
 2   Q.   So it's not your testimony here today that anybody can
 3   basically learn the mode control panel and fly a big jumbo jet?
 4   A.   No, that's -- not from a ground school.
 5   Q.   Certainly not this man (indicating)?
 6   A.   Yeah, he could.
 7   Q.   You're not testifying that he could fly a 747-400 based on
 8   the instruction you gave him?
 9   A.   If he'd have taken -- I think he had paid for four simulator
10   sessions, and at the end of those sessions, he would have known
11   how to work a mode control panel.
12   Q.   I'm not asking you, Mr. Prevost, what could have happened or
13   what would have happened --
14             MR. NOVAK:  Judge, I object.  He's arguing with the
15   witness now.
16             THE COURT:  Sustained.
18   Q.   Based on the instruction that you gave him, it's not your
19   testimony here today that he could operate the mode control panel?
20   A.   That's correct.
21   Q.   That's a yes?
22   A.   That's a yes.
23             MR. TROCCOLI:  The Court's indulgence?
24             THE COURT:  Yes, sir.

 1   Q.   Do you know, do you know if the FAA has ever done anything to
 2   harden cockpit doors to make sure that individuals who operate or
 3   can operate a mode control panel don't just come into the cockpit?
 4   A.   What was -- I missed the word, something door, cockpit doors.
 5   Q.   I take it, I take it that individuals who learn how to
 6   operate a mode control panel can then, as I understand your
 7   testimony, fly a large commercial airliner?
 8   A.   Yes.
 9   Q.   Do you know if the FAA did anything to make sure that if
10   somebody got such training, that they couldn't get into the
11   cockpit?
12   A.   The cockpit doors had locks on them.
13   Q.   Were they hardened?
14   A.   Hardened?
15   Q.   Hardened.
16   A.   H-a-r-d-e-n-e-d?
17   Q.   Correct.
18   A.   No.
19   Q.   Before 9/11 is my question.
20   A.   I don't know what they are now.
21   Q.   But prior to September 11, 2001, they were not hardened?
22   A.   You had to have a key to get in.
23   Q.   But they were not hardened?
24   A.   Correct.
25             MR. TROCCOLI:  Thank you, Your Honor.

 1             THE COURT:  All right.  Any redirect?
 2             MR. NOVAK:  Just a couple questions.
 3             THE COURT:  Mr. Novak, while you're doing that, I don't
 4   think formally you moved in MN-617.3, which was the --
 5             MR. NOVAK:  May I move it in?
 6             THE COURT:  Yeah.  So it's in for the record.
 7             MR. NOVAK:  Thank you, Judge.
 8             (Government's Exhibit No. MN-617.3 was received in
 9   evidence.)
10                       REDIRECT EXAMINATION
11   BY MR. NOVAK:
12   Q.   Just a couple questions, Mr. Prevost.  Just to follow up on
13   Mr. Troccoli -- tried to get you to -- asked you that last
14   question where you said yes about him, referring to Mr. Moussaoui,
15   not being able to operate the mode control panel based upon your
16   instruction.  Could -- were you referring simply to the ground
17   school?
18   A.   Yes.
19   Q.   If Mr. Moussaoui had fulfilled that schedule, the one that
20   the judge just referred to, 617 -- can we get that up there,
21   please?
22             If he had fulfilled that schedule that he had taken
23   where he had actually, instead of just taking the ground school,
24   as Mr. Troccoli asked you, if he had finished it and taken those,
25   what, one, two, three, four, simulator sessions, is there any

 1   doubt in your mind that he could have operated a mode control
 2   panel?
 3             MR. TROCCOLI:  Objection, Your Honor.  That calls for
 4   speculation.
 5             THE COURT:  Not from this witness.  Overruled.
 6             THE WITNESS:  He would have known how to run the mode
 7   control panel.
 9   Q.   So had Mr. Moussaoui finished his training on August 20, he
10   could have flown a 747-400; is that right?
11   A.   Yes.
12   Q.   All right.  And let me ask you this:  Mr. Troccoli referred
13   to his client, I think at one point, as a knucklehead.  Was there
14   anything about Mr. Moussaoui's intelligence that led you to
15   believe that he was a knucklehead?
16   A.   No.
17   Q.   Were the problems intelligence, or were they experience?
18   A.   Experience.
19             MR. NOVAK:  All right.  Thank you, I have no further
20   questions.
21             THE COURT:  Any recross?
22             MR. TROCCOLI:  Yes, briefly, Your Honor.
23                          RECROSS EXAMINATION
25   Q.   Mr. Prevost, Mr. Moussaoui never finished his training; isn't

 1   that so?
 2   A.   That's correct.
 3   Q.   He was arrested on the second day, correct?
 4   A.   Not on the second day.  After the second day, he was
 5   arrested, and before his simulator training.
 6   Q.   He never actually operated a simulator; isn't that so?
 7   A.   Yes, that's correct.
 8   Q.   At least with you?
 9   A.   That's correct.
10             MR. TROCCOLI:  Thank you.
11             MR. NOVAK:  Nothing else for the witness.
12             THE COURT:  All right.  Sir, then you're excused as a
13   witness.  Thank you for your testimony.  Do not discuss your
14   testimony or what you heard in court with any witness who has not
15   yet testified.
16             (Witness excused.)
17             THE COURT:  Call your next witness.
18             MR. NOVAK:  Back to stipulations, Judge, just a couple
19   of them.
20             THE COURT:  All right.
21             MR. NOVAK:  I'd like to publish Exhibit -- I'm sorry,
22   stipulation BBB from stipulation 129, and it's the ST-1 segment.
23   And the stipulation is on August 11 of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui and
24   Mr. Al-Attas arrived in Eagan, Minnesota, and they stayed at the
25   Residence Inn in Eagan through August 16 of 2001.

 1             And we have records from the Residence Inn that I think
 2   are certified, Judge, which I would offer, which are MN-511 and
 3   611.
 4             THE COURT:  No objection, correct?
 5             MR. MAC MAHON:  No objection, Your Honor.
 6             THE COURT:  Those are both in.
 7             (Government's Exhibits Nos. MN-511 and MN-611 were
 8   received in evidence.)
 9             MR. NOVAK:  Stipulation CCC from that same ST-1, No.
10   129, I'd like to publish.  On August 12 of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui
11   purchased the use of computer time at Kinko's in Eagan, Minnesota.
12             And if I could publish stipulation DDD, with the
13   attendant exhibits of 512.1, 512.2, and their certification of
14   512.3 of the MN exhibits -- which I would offer those three
15   exhibits.
16             THE COURT:  All right.  MN --
17             MR. NOVAK:  512.1.
18             THE COURT:  12.1 and then .2 and .3, they're all in.
19             MR. NOVAK:  Thank you, Judge.
20             (Government's Exhibit Nos. MN-512.1, MN-512.2, and
21   MN-512.3 were received in evidence.)
22             MR. NOVAK:  On August 12 of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui bought
23   shin guards and fighting gloves from the Oshman's SuperSports in
24   Bloomington, Minnesota.
25             Stipulation FFF and the attendant exhibit of MN-514 and

 1   its certification, MN-514.1, I offer both of those.
 2             THE COURT:  All right, MN-514 and 514.1?
 3             MR. NOVAK:  Yes, Your Honor.
 4             THE COURT:  Both in.
 5             (Government's Exhibits Nos. MN-514 and MN-514.1 were
 6   received in evidence.)
 7             MR. NOVAK:  That stipulation reads:  On August 16 of
 8   2001, Mr. Moussaoui purchased a Microsoft PowerPoint 2002 program
 9   from CompUSA in Bloomington, Minnesota.
10             And then, Judge, finally, we would just offer business
11   records which are for a post office box that, they have been
12   marked MN-513, and it's a certificate of a business record of
13   MN-513.1.  I would offer those as well.
14             THE COURT:  There's no objection, correct?
15             MR. MAC MAHON:  No objection, Your Honor.
16             THE COURT:  513 and 513.1 are in.
17             MR. NOVAK:  Yes, Your Honor, thank you.
18             (Government's Exhibits Nos. MN-513 and MN-513.1 were
19   received in evidence.)
20             MR. NOVAK:  We would call Agent Samit, please.
21             THE COURT:  All right.  Ladies and Gentlemen, if you're
22   hearing a slight roar, I think we're losing our air conditioning,
23   and it may get warm in here.  Fortunately, it's the end of the
24   trial week, and we'll hopefully have it repaired over the weekend.
25   But I just don't want you to be surprised if it starts to warm up.

 1   And that's what the noise is if any of you are hearing it.
 3             MR. NOVAK:  May I proceed, Your Honor?
 4             THE COURT:  Yes, sir.
 5                           DIRECT EXAMINATION
 7   Q.   Sir, could you introduce yourself to the good jurors by
 8   telling them your first and your last name, spelling both?
 9   A.   Harry Samit, H-a-r-r-y S-a-m-i-t.
10   Q.   Mr. Samit, could you tell the folks by whom you're employed?
11   A.   The Federal Bureau of Investigation.
12   Q.   In what capacity?
13   A.   As a special agent.
14   Q.   And how long have you been a special agent with the FBI?
15   A.   Since January of 1999.
16   Q.   Is that when you left the FBI academy?
17   A.   No.  I left the FBI academy in May of 1999.
18   Q.   And when you left the academy in May of 1999, where did you
19   get assigned to?
20   A.   The Minneapolis field office.
21   Q.   And have you been assigned there since then?
22   A.   I have.
23   Q.   All right.  So you remain a special agent up there in
24   Minneapolis; is that right?
25   A.   That's correct.

 1   Q.   And could you tell the good folks on what -- what kind of
 2   assignment do you have as a special agent with the FBI up there in
 3   Minneapolis?
 4   A.   I'm an investigator assigned to the Joint Terrorism Task
 5   Force.
 6   Q.   Tell the folks what the Joint Terrorism Task Force is.
 7   A.   The Joint Terrorism Task Force is an organization of law
 8   enforcement agents and officers who investigate international
 9   terrorism under the framework set up by the FBI.  It's got
10   personnel from a variety of different law enforcement agencies.
11   Q.   Do you want to list some of the different agencies that work
12   with you on that Joint Terrorism Task Force?
13   A.   Immigration and Naturalization Service, United States Secret
14   Service, local police officers, sheriff's deputies, a variety of
15   different investigators.
16   Q.   And beyond your assignment on the, on the -- JTTF is the
17   acronym for the Joint Terrorism Task Force; is that right?
18   A.   Correct.
19   Q.   Beyond your assignment to the JTTF, can you tell us what else
20   you do there as a special agent up there in Minnesota?
21   A.   At the time in 1999, I was assigned as a pilot with the FBI
22   as well.
23   Q.   We're going to talk about your pilot training in a second,
24   but your squad that you're assigned to is squad what?
25   A.   Squad 5.

 1   Q.   And squad 5 up there includes the investigation of what types
 2   of crime?
 3   A.   In, in 2001, it included the investigation of international
 4   terrorism, domestic terrorism, and foreign counterintelligence.
 5   Q.   And would it be fair to say that since your inception into
 6   the FBI, your initial assignment up there in Minneapolis, you've
 7   basically been working full-time on terrorism investigations?
 8   A.   Yes, sir.
 9   Q.   Now, could you tell us, have you received any type of
10   specialized training in the world of terrorism?
11   A.   I have.  During the FBI academy, the new agent training,
12   there was a terrorism integrated case scenario which I
13   participated in along with my class.  I also attended a basic
14   international terrorism in-service after graduating the FBI
15   academy, and then later a double agent and recruitment in-service
16   as well.
17   Q.   Okay.  Now, in addition to that, you're a pilot as well; is
18   that right?
19   A.   That's correct.
20   Q.   And have you received any type of pilot training within the
21   FBI?
22   A.   I have.  I attended the FBI-sponsored Cessna Pilots
23   Association introduction to the Cessna 182 aircraft.
24   Q.   Those are little planes; is that right?
25   A.   That's correct.

 1   Q.   All right.
 2   A.   As well as their air crew coordination seminar.
 3   Q.   All right.  Do you want to tell the folks what you did before
 4   you joined the FBI?
 5   A.   I was an officer in the United States Navy.
 6   Q.   And how long were you employed by the United States Navy?
 7   A.   From May of 1990 until joining the FBI in January of 1999.
 8   Q.   So for about nine years; is that right?
 9   A.   Yes, sir.
10   Q.   And when you left the Navy after those nine years, what was
11   your rank?
12   A.   Lieutenant commander.
13   Q.   Okay.  So you were commissioned in what area?
14   A.   In intelligence.
15   Q.   All right.  And what exactly -- what was your duties there in
16   the Navy as an intelligence officer?
17   A.   During my time in intelligence, I spent the entire time
18   assigned to aviation commands.  I was first assigned to a
19   sea-going squadron, flying aircraft off of an aircraft carrier.  I
20   did an exchange tour with the Canadian Air Force at their
21   headquarters in Ottawa, and then I was an instructor at the Navy
22   Fighter Weapons School, a top gun.
23   Q.   And what is it that you were supposed to do?  What was your
24   job?
25   A.   As an intelligence officer with aviation units, it was my job

 1   primarily to evaluate threat air forces and air defense forces, to
 2   look at their training, their capabilities, specifically with
 3   regard to pilot training capabilities.  We'd evaluate -- I would
 4   evaluate the number of hours, the types of training they did, and
 5   determine what kind of pilots they would be.
 6   Q.   Okay.  Now, you talked to us also about the fact that you
 7   went to the top gun school; is that right?
 8   A.   That's correct.  I was there as a student, and then I stayed
 9   as an instructor.
10   Q.   Okay.  And you have training also as a navigator; is that
11   right?
12   A.   That's correct.
13   Q.   And for those of us who have watched the "Top Gun" movie,
14   were you sitting in the first seat or the second seat?
15   A.   The back seat.
16   Q.   All right.  And how much training did you get as a navigator?
17   A.   Approximately six months.
18   Q.   All right.  And going back to your training in terms of what
19   you were supposed to analyze, how much time did you spend
20   analyzing the pilot trainings for other countries?
21   A.   When I was doing threat evaluations and looking at threat air
22   forces, probably 40 to 50 percent would be evaluating the pilot
23   capabilities.
24   Q.   Over what span of time?
25   A.   The entire time, from 1990 -- 1991 to 1999.

 1   Q.   So during those nine years, you were -- I gather you were
 2   evaluating hostile countries to see what kind of pilot training
 3   that they were giving to, to members of their Air Force; is that
 4   right?
 5   A.   Yes, sir.
 6   Q.   All right.  Now -- so you're pretty familiar with flight
 7   training; is that correct?
 8   A.   Flight standards, absolutely, sir.
 9   Q.   All right.  Now, you yourself, separate from the Navy, became
10   a pilot; is that right?
11   A.   That's correct.
12   Q.   And when was it approximately that you became a pilot?
13   A.   1997.
14   Q.   And could you tell us, what's your license certification
15   level?
16   A.   I am a private pilot, single engine fixed wing land airplane,
17   and I have a complex and high-performance endorsement.
18   Q.   Okay.  And the private pilot license, is that known as a PPL?
19   A.   Correct.
20   Q.   And could you tell the folks how it is that you went about
21   getting your PPL?
22   A.   I had flown in the Navy and decided that I enjoyed that.  My
23   tour in Canada with the Canadian Air Force was a ground job.  I
24   didn't get to fly, so I went and decided I wanted a private
25   pilot's license so I could do that.  I went to a flying school.  I

 1   asked, inquired about price and availability.  They were
 2   welcoming.  They said:  Come on in, and we'll teach you to fly.
 3   Q.   And what did you have to do before they started teaching you?
 4   Did you have to take any type of physical?
 5   A.   I did.  I had to take a medical to prove that I was medically
 6   fit to be able to fly.
 7   Q.   Does that happen with anybody?  Is that required by the FAA
 8   that before you can get your PPL, that you have to take some basic
 9   level of a physical of some sort?
10   A.   Yes, sir, that's correct.
11   Q.   And what's the purpose behind that?  What do they examine you
12   for?
13   A.   To make sure that vision, cardio, respiratory system, hearing
14   are all in accordance with my ability, with anyone's ability to
15   operate an aircraft safely.
16   Q.   Okay.  And did you do that?
17   A.   I did.
18   Q.   Okay.  And did you get your -- you were medically passed; is
19   that right?
20   A.   I was.
21   Q.   And then did you get your training there in Ottawa at that
22   flight school that you attended?
23   A.   That's correct.
24   Q.   All right.  And could you tell us, when you start your flight
25   school, what's the first thing that you do?

 1   A.   In my case, I went to ground school.
 2   Q.   And can you tell the folks what flight school -- ground
 3   school consists of?
 4   A.   It's academic training.  Aircraft systems, navigation, rules
 5   and regulations governing how you are allowed to fly an airplane.
 6   Very similar to the types of aviation training that began my naval
 7   aviation training.
 8   Q.   Okay.  Thereafter, did you start taking flight training where
 9   you actually flew in the plane?
10   A.   I did.
11   Q.   By the way, what kind of planes were you flying in at that
12   time?  The little Cessnas?
13   A.   Cessna 150s.
14   Q.   No kind of jets or anything like that, is that right?
15   A.   No.
16   Q.   All right.  Can you tell us, do you just jump in the Cessna
17   and start taking it up for a ride, or has somebody got to jump in
18   there with you?
19   A.   You're in there with a qualified instructor.
20   Q.   All right.  And how many hours did you spend with a qualified
21   instructor in dual-flight situations, where you're not flying
22   solo?
23   A.   Dual flight, where the instructor is with me in the airplane,
24   it took me about ten hours of dual flight before I was ready to
25   solo.

 1   Q.   Okay.  And did you indeed solo?
 2   A.   I did.
 3   Q.   All right.  And then ultimately, how many hours did it take
 4   you until you were certified as a -- with your PPL license?
 5   A.   Just under 50.
 6   Q.   All right.  And you got -- you were certified; is that right?
 7   A.   Yes, sir.
 8   Q.   And approximately how many pilot hours do you have as you sit
 9   here today as a private pilot?
10   A.   Approximately 250.
11   Q.   And approximately how many hours do you have sitting here
12   today as a navigator?
13   A.   About 350.
14   Q.   Now, despite those hours, I guess combined over 500 hours,
15   have you ever tried to go up to the next step of getting your
16   commercial license?
17   A.   I have not.
18   Q.   How many hours do you think that it normally takes before you
19   go up to that next step?
20             MR. MAC MAHON:  Objection, Your Honor.  He's an FBI
21   agent, not a commercial pilot.  That's irrelevant.
22             MR. NOVAK:  Well, no, he's a --
23             THE COURT:  He may be, but I think we've already heard a
24   great deal of this from the other witnesses, and I had assumed
25   Agent Samit was being called for other purposes.

 1             MR. NOVAK:  That's fine, Your Honor.  I'll move on.
 2             THE COURT:  I think before you move on to a new topic,
 3   this is a logical stopping point for the one-hour lunch break.
 4   Agent Samit, you'll need to be back here at 1:30.  We'll recess
 5   court until that time.
 6             (Recess from 12:28 p.m., until 1:30 p.m.)
 8                      CERTIFICATE OF THE REPORTERS
 9        We certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript of the
10   record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter.
                                       Anneliese J. Thomson
16                                        Karen Brynteson

 1                              I N D E X
 2                                    DIRECT  CROSS  REDIRECT  RECROSS
    Shohaib Nazir Kassam               674    689     699       700
    Clarence E. Prevost                716    772     788       789
    Harry Samit                        793
                                            MARKED    RECEIVED
    No. FO05521.11                                       705
12       FO05521.12                                       705
        FO05521.14                                       705
13       FO05521.30                                       705
        FO05521.29                                       705
        FO05521.66                                       705
15       FO05521.70                                       705
        MN-151                                           706
16       MN-617.1                                         707
        MN-154                                           708
        FO-5521.54                                       708
18       FO-5521.55                                       708
        ST-2                                             710
19       FO-5521.57                                       710
        FO-5521.58                                       710
        FO-5521.59                                       711
21       FO-5521.60                                       711
        FO-5521.61                                       712
22       MN-617.2                                         712
        FO-5521.75                                       714
        FO-5521.76                                       714
24       FO-5521.78                                       715
        MN-150 through MN-156                            716
25       MN-515                                           716

 1                                EXHIBITS
 2                                           MARKED    RECEIVED
 4   No. MN-111                                           721
        MN-112                                           721
 5       MN-113                                           721
        MN-105                                           724
 6       MN-101                                           726
 7       MN-102                                           727
        MN-103                                           727
 8       MN-144                                           732
        MN-128                                           732
 9       GX-2                                             740
10       MN-108                                           741
        MN-508.1                                         744
11       MN-508.2                                         744
        MN-617.3                                         788
12       MN-511                                           791
13       MN-611                                           791
        MN-512.1                                         791
14       MN-512.2                                         791
        MN-512.3                                         791
15       MN-514                                           792
16       MN-514.1                                         792
        MN-513                                           792
17       MN-513.1                                         792