9 March 2006
Source: Digital transcript purchased from Exemplaris.com. Files digitally signed by reporter.
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672UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA ALEXANDRIA DIVISION UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, . Criminal No. 1:01cr455 . vs. . Alexandria, Virginia . March 9, 2006 ZACARIAS MOUSSAOUI, . 9:30 a.m. a/k/a Shaqil, a/k/a . Abu Khalid al Sahrawi, . . Defendant. . . . . . . . . . . . . . TRANSCRIPT OF JURY TRIAL BEFORE THE HONORABLE LEONIE M. BRINKEMA UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE VOLUME IV APPEARANCES: FOR THE GOVERNMENT: ROBERT A. SPENCER, AUSA DAVID J. NOVAK, AUSA DAVID RASKIN, AUSA United States Attorney's Office 2100 Jamieson Avenue Alexandria, VA 22314 and JOHN W. VAN LONKHUYZEN, ESQ. U.S. Department of Justice Counterterrorism Section 10th and Constitution Avenue, N.W. Room 2736 Washington, D.C. 20530 FOR THE DEFENDANT: GERALD THOMAS ZERKIN KENNETH P. TROCCOLI ANNE M. CHAPMAN Assistant Federal Public Defenders Office of the Federal Public Defender 1650 King Street Alexandria, VA 22314 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION OF STENOGRAPHIC NOTES 673 1 APPEARANCES: (Cont'd.) 2 FOR THE DEFENDANT: EDWARD B. MAC MAHON, JR., ESQ. P.O. Box 903 3 107 East Washington Street Middleburg, VA 20118 4 and ALAN H. YAMAMOTO, ESQ. 5 643 South Washington Street Alexandria, VA 22314-3032 6 ALSO PRESENT: GERARD FRANCISCO 7 JOEL ALTER 8 COURT REPORTERS: ANNELIESE J. THOMSON, RDR, CRR U.S. District Court, Fifth Floor 9 401 Courthouse Square Alexandria, VA 22314 10 (703)299-8595 and 11 KAREN BRYNTESON, FAPR, RMR, CRR Brynteson Reporting, Inc. 12 2404 Belle Haven Meadows Court Alexandria, VA 22306 13 (703)768-8122 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 674 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 (Defendant and Jury in.) 3 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 4 Everyone has his and her notebooks? Good. And I assume 5 there were no problems last night. Did anybody bump into any 6 media coverage or have any difficulties with folks talking to 7 them? No. Good. Then we appreciate your being here on time and 8 we will begin with the next witness. 9 Mr. Spencer. 10 MR. SPENCER: Thank you, Your Honor. Good morning. The 11 United States calls Shohaib Nazir Kassam 12 THE COURT: Are we getting close to a glossary of names 13 and terms for the jury? 14 MR. SPENCER: We have started working on it, Your Honor, 15 yes. 16 THE COURT: All right, very good. 17 MR. SPENCER: I think actually we have drafted it and 18 turned it over to the defense. 19 THE COURT: All right, good. 20 SHOHAIB NAZIR KASSAM, GOVERNMENT'S WITNESS, AFFIRMED 21 DIRECT EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. SPENCER: 23 Q. Good morning, sir. 24 A. Good morning. 25 Q. Can you please tell the jury your full name? 675 1 A. It is Shohaib Kassam. 2 Q. Was there a time that you went by the name Shohaib Nazir 3 Kassam? 4 A. Yes, I did. 5 Q. Is Nazir actually one of your middle names? 6 A. Yes, it is. 7 Q. And how old are you, sir? 8 A. I am 26 years old. 9 Q. In what city do you live? 10 A. In Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. 11 Q. Where were you born and where were you raised? 12 A. I was born in Karachi, Pakistan, and I was raised in Kenya. 13 Q. How old were you when you moved to Kenya? 14 A. About six months old. 15 Q. When did you first come to the United States? 16 A. It was sometime in July, between June and July of 1999. 17 Q. And, I'm sorry, could you spell Kassam for the court 18 reporter? 19 A. That's K-a-s-s-a-m. 20 Q. And Nazir is N-a-z-i-r? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And Shohaib is S-h-o-h-a-i-b? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Thank you. And what do you do for a living? 25 A. I'm a certified flight instructor. 676 1 Q. What licenses or ratings do you hold as a certified flight 2 instructor? 3 A. I hold a commercial multi and a certified flight instructor 4 instrument rating. 5 Q. When did you receive -- let me ask you this: You said you 6 hold a commercial multi? 7 A. Commercial multi and certified flight instructor ratings. 8 Q. And multi stands for multi-engine? 9 A. Multi-engine, correct. 10 Q. When did you first get a commercial pilot's license? 11 A. It was in 2000, sometime in, between August and September 12 2000, yes, 2000. 13 Q. When did you become a flight instructor? 14 A. October of 2000. 15 Q. What is your immigration status in the United States? 16 A. I'm in paroled status. 17 Q. What's paroled status mean? 18 A. It is just extended, I guess an extended visa through the 19 U.S. government. 20 Q. So you are on permission to remain and work in the United 21 States? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. And that is, additional months are added to that on an 24 ongoing basis? 25 A. That's right. 677 1 Q. And is that, one of the reasons that you have got parole into 2 the United States is because of your cooperation in this case? 3 A. That's true. 4 Q. And have you been promised any type of immigration benefit by 5 the United States Government in connection with your testimony in 6 this case? 7 A. No, I haven't. 8 Q. Now, was there a time, Mr. Kassam, that you attended the 9 Airman Flight School? 10 A. Yes, I did. 11 Q. When was that? 12 A. That was between July 1999 and -- I mean, October, since I 13 started instructing out of there, of 2000. 14 Q. And was there a time that you taught as a flight instructor 15 at the Airman Flight School? 16 A. Yes, I did. 17 Q. And when was that? 18 A. That was starting October of 2000 up until January of '04. 19 Q. When you were -- when you were teaching students how to fly 20 at Airman Flight School, were you actually an employee of the 21 Airman Flight School? 22 A. No, I was not. 23 Q. So how were you able to teach students there? 24 A. I was working towards my airline transport pilot license, and 25 I was amassing flight time as a flight instructor at Airman Flight 678 1 School. 2 Q. Were you given some money by Airman Flight School in exchange 3 for teaching their students? 4 A. Yes, they gave me a small student allotment. 5 Q. While you were doing that, you were building up hours, which 6 would help you get what I think you have called -- 7 A. The airline transport pilot license. 8 Q. That's sometimes called an ATP? 9 A. ATP, correct. 10 Q. Okay. Is that an arrangement that's common at Airman Flight 11 School? 12 A. Yes, it was. 13 Q. All right. What type of aircraft did you teach students on 14 at Airman Flight School? 15 A. Mostly just light, single-engine airplanes. 16 Q. Now, when you were teaching at the Airman Flight School, did 17 you have contact with Zacarias Moussaoui? 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 Q. In what capacity? 20 A. I was his primary flight instructor. 21 Q. When did you first have contact with Mr. Moussaoui? 22 A. It was sometime in February, late February of '01. 23 Q. Do you see him in court today? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Can you point him out for the jury, please? 679 1 A. That's him right there (indicating). 2 MR. SPENCER: Is that sufficient for an identification 3 on the record, Your Honor? 4 THE COURT: Any objection to the identification? 5 MR. MAC MAHON: Stipulate to the identification. 6 THE COURT: The record will so reflect the witness 7 identified the defendant. 8 BY MR. SPENCER: 9 Q. How long were you Mr. Moussaoui's flight instructor? 10 A. Between March and May of '01. 11 Q. And what did your training, your flight training of 12 Mr. Moussaoui consist of? 13 A. Primarily flight training and ground instruction. 14 Q. And let's take the ground instruction first. How often did 15 you teach him in ground school? 16 A. I taught the first two weeks of a private pilot ground 17 school, and that rotated between, I think, three instructors, and 18 I may have taught it anywhere from -- maybe twice a week at least. 19 Q. In those two weeks of ground school, did the students meet 20 every day? 21 A. Pretty much. 22 Q. And is it classroom-type instruction? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. How was Mr. Moussaoui as a student in ground school? 25 A. Fairly active, very attentive, would actively participate in 680 1 discussions. 2 Q. Did he ask questions? 3 A. Yes, he did. 4 Q. Did he argue with you when you were the instructor? 5 A. Sometimes, yes. 6 Q. Was that in an inappropriate manner or in a manner 7 appropriate for a classroom? 8 A. Very appropriate. It was all relevant classroom material. 9 Q. Mr. Kassam, approximately what percentage in your experience 10 of Airman Flight students come from outside the United States? 11 A. A vast majority, I would say between 70 and 80 percent. 12 Q. Now, let's turn to the in-flight training program. Did you 13 fly with Mr. Moussaoui? 14 A. Yes, I did. 15 Q. How many times? 16 A. A cumulative of a little over 50 hours of flight time over -- 17 between March and May. 18 Q. Of 2000 -- 19 A. Of 2001. 20 Q. And how was Mr. Moussaoui as a pilot once you were up in the 21 plane with him? 22 A. Not a very good pilot, I'd say, not the best student, just 23 below average as far as his flying abilities went. 24 Q. And what was the -- what were his challenges as a student 25 when trying to fly a plane? 681 1 A. Just basic aircraft control, you know, he couldn't maintain 2 basic aircraft control most of the time. 3 Q. How was his concentration when he was up in the air? 4 A. He was, he would try -- he would definitely try to 5 concentrate and try to learn the task at hand. 6 Q. All right. And you had him -- you taught him over 50 hours 7 yourself personally; is that what you said? 8 A. That's right. 9 Q. Did you get him to solo the plane during that time period? 10 A. No, I did not. 11 Q. Is that common or uncommon? 12 A. To a certain degree it is common, but in my case it was 13 uncommon. That was pretty -- as far as I can remember, that was 14 the highest time I have taken anybody to get to that point, which 15 I didn't succeed with Zac. 16 Q. So you never got him to the point where he solo'd? 17 A. No. 18 Q. And, in fact, you have never had a student that took longer 19 to get toward a solo than Mr. Moussaoui? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did he get a student pilot certificate? 22 A. He did have a student pilot certificate. 23 Q. Tell the jury what that means, to get a student pilot 24 certificate. 25 A. That's what you initially need before you start flight 682 1 training. It is called a student pilot and medical certificate. 2 So before -- typically when you start flight training, that's what 3 you start with. 4 Q. And you already told us that he never gained to the point 5 where he could solo the airplane? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. When you are up in the air with him, there are times when you 8 give that student control, even though they are not permitted to 9 solo yet, correct? 10 A. That's very normal, yes. 11 Q. Did he get a private pilot's license? 12 A. No, he did not. 13 Q. And in your experience you told us that that was a little 14 unusual, to fly for 50 hours and not get a private pilot's 15 license, or do I have that mixed up? 16 A. In my -- sometimes you may exceed that time frame to get, to 17 obtain a private pilot's certificate. 18 Q. I guess what I'm getting at is soloing a plane and getting a 19 private pilot's license are two different things; is that fair? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. First you learn to solo, and then you get a private pilot's 22 license? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Now, there came a time when you stopped teaching 25 Mr. Moussaoui? 683 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And when was that? 3 A. It was sometime in May, I think, of 2001. 4 Q. Why did you stop being his primary flight instructor? 5 A. I was assigned to a different program. I went, I moved from 6 the private pilot certificate, certification program to the 7 instrument rating course. 8 Q. Do you think if you had stayed with Mr. Moussaoui you could 9 have gotten him to the point where he could solo a single engine 10 airplane? 11 A. Yes. I was confident if I'd stayed with him, I probably 12 would have gotten him to his goal. 13 Q. During the time that you spent with him, what did you call 14 him? 15 A. I called him Zac. 16 Q. Why did you call him Zac? 17 A. That's what he wanted to be addressed as. 18 Q. And how did you get along with him? 19 A. Fairly well. I mean, we got along just fine. 20 Q. Did you have a lot of time in general discussion? 21 A. Classroom time, just during the time that we were in the 22 flight school, yes. 23 Q. And how about when you were up in the airplane? 24 A. We had brief moments where we just talked a little bit 25 between all our maneuvers. 684 1 Q. Did you find him an interesting man to talk to? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did you find him -- did you find that you got into arguments 4 with him? 5 A. Sometimes, but -- we did. 6 Q. Over what topics? 7 A. Just over flying material, basically just techniques and, you 8 know, how I taught the maneuvers and what he thought, the way it 9 should be taught. 10 Q. Were most of your discussions about flight-related issues, or 11 was it world events or some other topic? 12 A. Just flight-related, majority of them were flight-related 13 issues. 14 Q. Were the arguments or disagreements you had with him, were 15 they friendly confrontations or sort of nasty disagreements? 16 A. They were very friendly. 17 Q. Did you ever have any discussion with Mr. Moussaoui about why 18 he was in flight school? 19 A. Yes, I did. 20 Q. And how did that go, please tell the jury? 21 A. Just, it is pretty common to ask students what their goals 22 are and their objectives are and why they are doing this. And I 23 think Zac at the time said he wanted to do this for a couple of 24 individuals in the Middle East, he had some friends that were very 25 wealthy that eventually he was going to fly privately for, he was 685 1 going to fly private jets for. 2 Q. And what was your response to that? 3 A. I just said, you know, that probably would not be the case, 4 with just a private pilot certificate, that he would need to go 5 beyond the private pilot certification course to be able to get to 6 that goal. 7 Q. And what was his response to your comments? 8 A. He asked me: What is that process? 9 I told him: You know, you would have to get your 10 instrument rating, you need to have your commercial rating, 11 multi-engine rating, and then probably a type rating particular to 12 that make and model. 13 Q. And what concern did he ever voice about how long that 14 process would take to be able to fly a jet? 15 A. I don't recall him raising a concern as to how long it would 16 take him to get there. I know he had a goal that he had to get 17 out of there in six months or so, but there was no specific goal 18 to get to that jet as far as I remember. 19 Q. And did you ever ask him what he did for a living? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. What did he tell you? 22 A. He said he was a businessman and did, you know, import/export 23 trade type things. 24 Q. Did you ever ask him what type of trade? 25 A. Not specifically. It was just import and export, so that's 686 1 to the extent that we discussed it. 2 Q. Had he mentioned anything about whether he would travel 3 around the world? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And what did he tell you about that? 6 A. We talked about, you know, I'm originally from -- well, I was 7 born in Karachi, Pakistan, and he said he had been to Pakistan. 8 And been to the Middle East, I guess, and, you know, Europe, 9 France, London, obviously. And he -- you know, we talked about 10 Kenya a little bit and the fact that he knew some people in 11 Mombassa in Kenya. 12 Q. Mombassa is your hometown in Kenya? 13 A. Yes, it is. 14 Q. What religion did Mr. Moussaoui practice? 15 A. He was Muslim. 16 Q. How did you know that? 17 A. Just by talking to him, his name, and basically it was pretty 18 evident that he was Muslim. 19 Q. Why was it pretty evident that he was Muslim? 20 A. His -- just going off his name, and, you know, we talked 21 about religion and the fact that, you know, he would pray and, you 22 know, I wasn't praying at the time, so we had -- 23 Q. What religion, what faith were you raised in, what religion 24 did you practice? 25 A. I was raised as a Muslim. 687 1 Q. Did he ask you about that? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And how did that come up? 4 A. I vaguely remember, but I think it was just, you know, the 5 fact that I didn't pray and didn't go to the mosque, and he said 6 well, you know, you ought to, you ought to do this, you know, you 7 will get rewarded, you know, and it is something that you should 8 do as a Muslim, as a pious Muslim. 9 Q. We will come back to that in one second. 10 How did he first discover that you were from Pakistan? 11 A. I probably volunteered that information. 12 Q. Early on or later on in your relationship? 13 A. It was pretty early on. It was just part of getting to know 14 him and him getting to know me. 15 Q. Was there anything unusual about that, or did -- 16 A. No, it is very normal. 17 Q. In other words, it came up in the natural course of talking 18 to a student? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. Now, would you describe yourself in 2001 as a devout Muslim? 21 A. No, I wasn't. 22 Q. And you mentioned that he was trying to get you back into the 23 faith? 24 A. No. He just talked about, you know, church, I mean, sorry, 25 mosques and going to pray and fasting, and just things like that, 688 1 but he didn't, you know, prompt me to go to the mosque or 2 anything. 3 Q. And what was the issue -- was there any particular issue that 4 he said that you could, you should reconsider your actions on? 5 A. Not that I recall. 6 Q. All right. Did you ever discuss Jihad with him? 7 A. No, I didn't. 8 Q. Did you consider him to be a particular extremist or 9 fundamentalist Muslim? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Now, Mr. Kassam, after September 11th, 2001, did you 12 recognize the photographs of some of the 9/11, the 19 9/11 13 hijackers who died that day? 14 A. Yes, I did. 15 Q. How did that come about? 16 A. I was in Mombassa, Kenya, at the time vacationing, and I saw 17 these images appear on CNN. It was, I think, Mohamed Atta and 18 Marwan al-Shehhi. And I remembered seeing them at Airman Flight 19 School in 2000, in the summer of 2000. 20 Q. And you recognized their face? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. Tell the jury what happened when you saw them at Airman 23 Flight School. 24 A. I was a student at the time, and I was walking out of the 25 debriefing station, and I just pretty much ran into Mohamed Atta. 689 1 It was pretty close. He was walking into the debriefing room from 2 the hallway and I was walking out. And I looked up at him, and he 3 said "hi" and I said "hi" and I walked out. 4 And then I think I saw Brenda giving the tour, and 5 Marwan al-Shehhi was trailing her, Brenda Keene. 6 Q. Do you remember what time of the year that was in 2000? 7 A. No, I do not remember. 8 Q. After you recognized those images on CNN, what did you do 9 about it? 10 A. Nothing at the time. I just told my dad that, you know, 11 these are some of the guys that I had seen at the flight school. 12 Q. And at some point did you report that to the FBI? 13 A. Yes, when I was back in the U.S. 14 MR. SPENCER: Nothing further on direct, Your Honor. 15 Thank you. 16 THE COURT: All right. Cross-examination? 17 MR. TROCCOLI: Thank you, Your Honor. 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. TROCCOLI: 20 Q. Good morning, Mr. Kassam. You say you flew with 21 Mr. Moussaoui more than any other instructor at Airman; is that 22 correct? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Approximately 50 hours of flight time? 25 A. Yes. 690 1 Q. Is that about 35 to 40 times that you have flown with 2 Mr. Moussaoui when you were an instructor at Airman? 3 A. Close. 4 Q. And it is true that Mr. Moussaoui, in fact, had a lot of 5 problems with the flight instruction portion of his instruction at 6 Airman, correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. He had difficulty keeping the aircraft level? 9 A. We conformed to what's called the practical test standards, 10 and, yes, he did have problems maintaining the airplane within the 11 required standards. 12 Q. He couldn't keep the aircraft level according to the required 13 standards to have a pilot's license? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. He had trouble making turns? 16 A. Within the specified bank angles, yes. 17 Q. The requirements? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. He couldn't make them according to the requirements? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. And he had trouble with his, with the descents of the 22 aircraft? 23 A. To a certain degree, yes. 24 Q. He didn't meet the requirements for those, either, correct? 25 A. Correct. 691 1 MR. SPENCER: Your Honor, could the witness finish his 2 answer, please. 3 THE COURT: Yes, just hold off. 4 THE WITNESS: It was -- what I mean by that is, you 5 know, under normal flight maneuvers, when you are out in what we 6 call the practice area, where it is nonstressful, there is not 7 very many airplanes around, he would do fairly well. 8 And when we would enter what we call the traffic 9 pattern, where we're practicing the maneuvers, takeoffS, and 10 landings, it is a very tense environment, there is numerous 11 airplanes in the traffic pattern at the time, there is a lot of 12 chatter that's going on, and under those circumstances he would, 13 you know, he would be tense and just wouldn't stay focused. 14 BY MR. TROCCOLI: 15 Q. He had trouble concentrating on more than one thing at a 16 time? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. And at some point you realized that he really wouldn't be 19 able to fly an aircraft due to his poor performance in the flight 20 instruction portion of his instruction at Airman? 21 A. I didn't feel that he wouldn't learn it. It would just take 22 him longer to get it. 23 Q. Do you recall speaking to the FBI in May of 2002? 24 A. Yes, I do. 25 Q. Do you recall telling them in May of 2002 that Moussaoui was 692 1 smart in ground school but once in the aircraft, Moussaoui had a 2 lot of problems? 3 A. I believe I said that. 4 Q. And that he began to have difficulties keeping the aircraft 5 level, straight on course, and negotiating turns and descents; is 6 that correct? 7 A. Within the specified standards, yes. 8 Q. And he never showed enough skills to fly solo, correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And at some point you mentioned that there were different 11 instructors that taught Mr. Moussaoui. Is it true that his 12 instructors were changed in part because he was having problems 13 learning the basic skills to solo? 14 A. I would say yes. 15 Q. And eventually Mr. Moussaoui quit his training, correct, as 16 far as you know? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now, there are different levels of training that a person, a 19 student can receive, correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You, yourself, have a private pilot's license? 22 A. The commercial supersedes the private. 23 Q. And there is a commercial license above that? 24 A. Pardon me? 25 Q. There is a commercial pilot's license, which is higher than a 693 1 private pilot's license? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. And there is instrument ratings that you can get on top of 4 that? 5 A. In addition to a commercial or private. 6 Q. And Mr. Moussaoui was not able to get any of those things? 7 A. He was -- at the time he was just working on his private 8 pilot certification. He talked about the instrument rating but we 9 weren't working on that with him. 10 Q. Now, you mentioned at times that Mr. Moussaoui was 11 argumentative? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you find him to be stubborn? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Isn't it true that he tended to blame others for his 16 failings? 17 A. I would say yes to that. 18 Q. In fact, didn't he blame you? 19 A. Yes, I remember him saying, calling -- go ahead. 20 Q. I'm sorry, go ahead. 21 A. He had a nickname for me, he called me WI, and, you know, at 22 first it didn't make sense to me what that stood for. And I asked 23 him: What's that, Zac? And he said: The worst instructor. So I 24 just laughed about it, you know, I didn't think much of it, but I 25 did want to get a second opinion on, you know, on him. So that's 694 1 where the other instructors would have come in, just to, you know, 2 help me analyze if, you know, where the problems or the weaknesses 3 were. 4 Q. How did you interpret the WI comment from Mr. Moussaoui? Did 5 you interpret that to mean that he was blaming you? 6 A. I just took it as a joke. I didn't take it literally because 7 he laughed when he said that, so I just took it as a joke. 8 Q. But he thought you were the problem? 9 A. That's for him to decide. 10 Q. You mentioned that you spoke about religion with 11 Mr. Moussaoui; is that correct? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. In fact, he was pretty open about his religion with you? 14 A. Yes, he was. 15 Q. And he made it clear to you that he was a devout Muslim? 16 A. From his actions, I assumed he was a devout Muslim. 17 Q. He prayed about five times a day, as far as you knew? 18 A. As far as I knew, yes. 19 Q. And he had a strict interpretation of Islam, as far as you 20 knew? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And isn't it true that he openly preached to everyone? 23 A. No. 24 Q. He didn't openly preach to you? 25 A. No. 695 1 Q. In fact, he told you that you were not a good Muslim because 2 you didn't pray enough, correct? 3 A. I don't consider that as preaching, though. 4 Q. But that's what he told you? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. In fact, his training schedule was modified somewhat so that 7 he could attend mosques on Friday, correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. Do you recall speaking to the FBI in August of 2001? 10 A. Yes, I do. 11 THE COURT: Wait, 2001? 12 MR. TROCCOLI: 2001, Your Honor. 13 THE WITNESS: 2002, that would be. 14 BY MR. TROCCOLI: 15 Q. Do you recall also speaking to the FBI in August of 2001? 16 A. Oh, yeah, I do. I do. 17 Q. And do you recall telling the FBI, "Mr. Nazir remembers 18 Moussaoui being an extremely faithful Muslim and preaching to 19 everyone"? 20 A. No, I do not recall saying that. 21 Q. Would it refresh your recollection to look at a copy of the 22 FBI memorandum of the interview you had with the FBI? 23 A. Sure. 24 Q. With the assistance of Mr. Wood -- 25 THE COURT: Mr. Troccoli, show it to Mr. Spencer, 696 1 please. 2 THE WITNESS: What paragraph is it? 3 BY MR. TROCCOLI: 4 Q. At the bottom of the page I have highlighted the areas. Read 5 those and then -- if you would, and let me know when you are 6 through. 7 A. You said the bottom of the page? 8 Q. The highlighted areas on the page. 9 A. Okay. "When Nazir pointed out a plane and told Moussaoui" -- 10 MR. SPENCER: Excuse me, Your Honor. 11 THE COURT: You don't need to read -- the issue is 12 whether after you have read that document, you remember what you 13 said. 14 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. Sorry, I apologize. 15 THE COURT: I assume that was the objection, 16 Mr. Spencer. 17 MR. SPENCER: It was, Your Honor. 18 BY MR. TROCCOLI: 19 Q. Sir, do you remember telling the FBI in August 2001 -- thank 20 you, Mr. Wood -- that Moussaoui was an extremely faithful Muslim 21 and preaching to everyone? 22 A. No, I do not recall saying that. 23 Q. Do you deny saying it? 24 A. I just don't remember saying it. 25 Q. You don't remember. You do -- that is what the document said 697 1 that was just handed to you, however? 2 MR. SPENCER: It is improper impeachment. 3 THE COURT: That's improper. Sustained. 4 BY MR. TROCCOLI: 5 Q. When you were -- you were interviewed by the FBI, however; 6 you recall that? 7 A. Yes, I do. 8 Q. And you answered questions about Mr. Moussaoui to them? 9 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. What did the FBI tell you at that time that they knew about 11 Mr. Moussaoui? 12 A. I didn't know what was going on. I just -- they just asked 13 me questions and at the end -- at the beginning showed me a 14 picture and that was it. I did not -- I didn't have a clue what 15 was going on. 16 Q. You gave the FBI information, similar information to what you 17 have testified to here today? 18 A. At that time? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. From what I recall, it would have -- yes, I would say yes. 21 Q. You told them at that time that he was extremely nosy, 22 wanting to know every little detail about everything and everyone, 23 correct? 24 A. That would sound like Zac, yes. 25 Q. You told them that he was naive about aviation? 698 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Correct? So naive, in fact, that you told the FBI that -- 3 you recounted an incident in which Mr. Moussaoui said that he 4 wanted to buy an airplane like the one he saw at the school, 5 correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. And you recounted to the FBI that when you pointed out to 8 Mr. Moussaoui that the aircraft costs millions of dollars, that 9 Mr. Moussaoui seemed surprised. 10 A. He didn't seem surprised. 11 Q. But is that what you told the FBI? 12 A. I do not remember saying that. 13 Q. Would it refresh your recollection to take a look at the 14 memorandum of your interview with the FBI? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. NOVAK: With Mr. Wood's assistance. 17 BY MR. NOVAK: 18 Q. Do you recall saying that to the FBI? 19 A. Not the fact that he was surprised. 20 Q. Do you recall giving to the FBI another name that 21 Mr. Moussaoui used? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Zuluman Tangotango? 24 A. Yes, Zuluman Tangotango. 25 MR. TROCCOLI: Court's indulgence. 699 1 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 2 BY MR. TROCCOLI: 3 Q. Mr. Kassam, you testified earlier about a student pilot 4 certificate, did you say Mr. Moussaoui had? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. What are the requirements for getting a student pilot 7 certificate? 8 A. You have got to be at least 16 years of age, be able to read, 9 understand, and write the English language, and speak it, 10 basically just pass a flight physical. 11 Q. You don't have to have any flying skills? 12 A. No. 13 MR. TROCCOLI: Thank you. No further questions. 14 THE COURT: Any redirect? 15 MR. SPENCER: Just a few, Your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 17 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. SPENCER: 19 Q. Mr. Kassam, Mr. Troccoli asked you several questions about 20 whether you thought Mr. Moussaoui was a devout or not a devout 21 Muslim. Did you ever go to mosque with him? 22 A. No, I never did. 23 Q. Did he ever try to get you to go to mosque with him? 24 A. No. 25 Q. And the issue he had with you about getting back more into 700 1 your faith, that was concerning your habit of pursuing American 2 women; is that true? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Can you tell the jury what happened on that? 5 A. You know, just loose talk, we were just talking about, you 6 know, what I do with my free time and, you know, yeah, I go out 7 dancing, you know, socialize and, you know, meet women. And, you 8 know, to that he said, you know, these earthly things, you know, 9 right now, that you are pursuing right now, aren't going to be 10 worth anything, you know, if you probably were more devout in your 11 faith, you know, at the end you would end up getting these 12 beautiful women in heaven, you know. So I vividly recall him 13 saying that. 14 Q. Did that change your practices at all? 15 A. No. 16 (Laughter.) 17 MR. SPENCER: Thank you, Your Honor. That's all I have. 18 THE COURT: Any recross? 19 RECROSS EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. TROCCOLI: 21 Q. Mr. Kassam, did Mr. Moussaoui mention how you would get these 22 beautiful women? 23 A. No, he did not. 24 Q. Did he mention that it was in paradise, after death? 25 A. Well, I'm assuming it was going to be after death because, 701 1 you know, that's the assumption. 2 MR. TROCCOLI: All right, thank you. 3 THE COURT: All right. I assume Mr. Kassam is finished 4 as a witness? 5 MR. SPENCER: Yes, thank you, Your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Thank you, sir, for your testimony. You are 7 excused. Do not discuss your testimony or anything you have heard 8 in court with any witness who has not yet testified. 9 (Witness excused.) 10 THE COURT: Your next witness? 11 MR. SPENCER: I would like to read in part of a 12 stipulation, part of records that I think have been admitted, have 13 been admitted by stipulation. I would like to publish to the 14 jury -- 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 MR. SPENCER: -- several e-mails. The first one, Your 17 Honor, is an e-mail, these all come out of the pilotz123@hotmail 18 account. Zuluman Tangotango is the name assigned to that account. 19 This is an e-mail dated -- 20 THE COURT: Do these have exhibit numbers on them? 21 MR. SPENCER: They do, Your Honor. I will give them. 22 If you look at the screen it is on the upper left. 23 THE COURT: All right. But I think for the purposes of 24 the record, we need to have these -- so this is FO-05521.10, 25 correct? 702 1 MR. SPENCER: They all have the -- they are all 2 Government Exhibit FO-5521.1, and they will range from .10, they 3 go all the way up to .70. But I am not going to go into all of 4 those, Your Honor. I am going to take a look at eight of those 5 only. 6 THE COURT: But are those the only ones that are going 7 to go into evidence to the jury? 8 MR. SPENCER: No, there are other ones that have gone in 9 by stipulation, Your Honor. 10 THE COURT: But we are going to look at just eight right 11 now? 12 MR. SPENCER: Correct. 13 MR. MAC MAHON: That's correct, Your Honor. We have 14 stipulated to the authenticity and admissibility of all those 15 documents. 16 THE COURT: All right. Right now we're looking at -- 17 I'm just going to call it .10 because that's easier 18 than point-1-0. 19 MR. SPENCER: Very well. .10 was actually read by 20 Mr. Raskin yesterday so I am going to skip that in the interest of 21 time, Your Honor. 22 THE COURT: That's fine. 23 MR. SPENCER: Going to .11, it is an e-mail dated May 24 18th, 2001. With the Court's permission I am just going to read 25 the highlighted portion. "I need some information on how to 703 1 achieve my life dream. I want to pilot a big jet, so I need to 2 know what qualification I need to get my rating on an Airbus 300 3 and on Being 737 and Boeing 747 and 777. To fly in a simulator 4 one of this plane is my dream." 5 And now to .12, Your Honor. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 MR. SPENCER: "If I can get a full simulator training on 8 a Boeing or Airbus even if I am not a commercial pilot. I'm doing 9 my PPL but my dream is to fly one of these big bird (of course in 10 a simulator)." 11 That is an e-mail to firstname.lastname@example.org dated May 12 21st, 2001. 13 The next one I wish to publish is 14, Your Honor. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. SPENCER: That's an e-mail to email@example.com, 16 May 22nd, 2001. 17 "Ready to spend a bit money to have the experience of a 18 lifetime to fly one of these big bird. I do not intended to 19 become a airline pilot. I am 33 years old (a bit late to start) 20 but this is one of my dream." 21 And down at the other highlighted portion: "Finally, 22 could you advise me where to buy the best PC simulator" -- I'm 23 sorry, Your Honor, we're having a technical issue -- "the best PC 24 simulator for a large airliner, something with rudder, pedal, 25 throttle, ET, something very professional." 704 1 I would like to go all the way up to .30, Your Honor. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. SPENCER: "I am interested not the full POH/FM, only 4 some training material that will enable to prepare my flight on 5 the 747 and 757. (I have in mind to try them both.)" 6 That is to firstname.lastname@example.org. That was dated June 7 5th, 2001. 8 The next one up should be .29, which is the same date, 9 June 5th, 2001. It is to email@example.com. 10 The highlighted portion reads: "I asked them a training 11 manual for the 747 and 757. They told me only Boeing will give 12 them." 13 The next one should be .66. That's an e-mail dated 14 August 3rd, 2001 to Magellan Support from the same address, 15 Zuluman Tangotango. "Hi, is it possible to convert a street pilot 16 3 to a aviation GPS GPSMAP 295? What should I do, buy, et cetera, 17 and how much will it cost?" 18 And then the last one I would like to publish, Your 19 Honor, is .70, dated August 6th, 2001. Again, from Zuluman 20 Tangotango to Magellan Support. "Hi, can I use this GPS in a 21 plane to find my position and can I use it street map on a car? 22 Thank you." 23 THE COURT: So for the record, FO05521.11, 12, 14, 30, 24 29, 66 and 70 are in evidence, and they have all been published to 25 the jury. 705 1 (Government's Exhibit Nos. FO05521.11, FO05521.12, 2 FO05521.14, FO05521.30, FO05521.29, FO05521.66, and FO05521.70 3 were received in evidence.) 4 THE COURT: Your next witness? 5 MR. SPENCER: Your Honor, one fact I would like to add 6 from the stipulation is that the e-mails that are FSBTI are to 7 Flight Safety at Boeing. That's a stipulated fact. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. SPENCER: Thank you, Your Honor. 10 MR. MAC MAHON: That's correct, Your Honor. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 THE COURT: Mr. Novak, your next witness? 13 MR. NOVAK: Good morning, Judge. I would like to begin 14 with publishing some stipulations, if I could, and introducing 15 some attendant exhibits, if I might. 16 Beginning with Stipulation 129, paragraph R, and the 17 attendant exhibit, which we'd like to display on the screen if we 18 could, Exhibit MN-151. 19 THE COURT: M-N as in "Nancy"? 20 MR. NOVAK: MN-151. The stipulation reads -- if we 21 could zoom in a little bit. The stipulation reads: On May 23rd, 22 2001 Mr. Moussaoui, using his Internet address of 23 firstname.lastname@example.org, sent an e-mail message to Pan Am flight 24 academy requesting information on simulator training. 25 The e-mail read as follows: "Hello, Mrs. Matt. I am 706 1 Mrs. Zacarias. I contacted you today by phone. Basically I need 2 to know if you can help to achieve my goal, my dream. I would 3 like to fly in a professsional like manner one of the big 4 airliners. I have to made my mind which of the following: Boeing 5 747, 757, 767, or 777 and/or Airbus 300 (it will depend on the 6 cost and which one is easiest to learn). The level that I would 7 like to achieve is to be able to take off and land, to handle 8 communication with ATC, to be able to successfully navigate from A 9 to B, JFK to Heathrow, for example, in a sense to be able to pilot 10 one of these big bird, even if I am not a real professsional 11 pilot. I am ready to take instrument course to achieve some basic 12 understanding. I have around 55 hours of flying and a 152, and I 13 passed my written PPL last month. I know it could be better but I 14 am sure that you can do something. After all, we are in America, 15 and everything is possible. Have a nice day, waiting for a 16 positive fly. Thanks you, Zac." 17 We move for the admission of MN-151. 18 THE COURT: There is no objection, right, that's 19 stipulated to? 20 MR. MAC MAHON: No, Your Honor, no objection. 21 THE COURT: It is in. 22 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-151 was received in 23 evidence.) 24 MR. NOVAK: The next stipulation is subparagraph GG from 25 129. And the attendant exhibit is MN-617.1, which we move for the 707 1 admission of. 2 THE COURT: I'm sorry, give me the number again? 3 MR. NOVAK: 617.1. 4 THE COURT: There is no objection to that, correct? 5 MR. MAC MAHON: None, Your Honor. 6 THE COURT: All right, it is in. 7 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-617.1 was received in 8 evidence.) 9 MR. NOVAK: On June 28th of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui received 10 a fax from Matt Tierney, sales director at Pan Am Flight Academy, 11 regarding his custom B747-400 pilot course. The fax is Exhibit 12 Number MN-617.1. The contents of the fax -- 13 THE COURT: Mr. Novak, just slow it down a smidge. 14 MR. NOVAK: I've been waiting for four days, Judge. 15 THE COURT: I understand. 16 (Laughter.) 17 THE COURT: Take a deep breath. We can start. 18 MR. NOVAK: I will try to behave. All right. The fax 19 read: "The following course has been reconstructed by our 20 training staff in Minneapolis to accomplish your below stated 21 objective. Quoting your e-mail of 5/23/01: 'The level that I 22 would like to achieve is to be able to take off and land, to 23 handle communication with ATC, to be able to successfully navigate 24 from A to B (JFK to Heathrow, for example). In a sense to be able 25 to pilot one of these big bird, even if I am not a real 708 1 professsional pilot.' 2 "A, the course: Eight hours, B747-400, ground school 3 orientation for two days. 12 hours of B747-400 full flight 4 simulator to include your maiden captain flight for four days, 5 actual flight destination to be determined by you and your 6 instructor. Training total $8300." 7 The next stipulation, Your Honor, is subparagraph II 8 from the same 129, with Exhibit Number MN-154, which we would also 9 move to introduce. 10 THE COURT: All right. That's also in. 11 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-154 was received in 12 evidence.) 13 MR. NOVAK: The stipulation provides on July the 10th of 14 2001, Mr. Moussaoui paid $1500 as a deposit for flight simulator 15 training at Pan Am International. Mr. Moussaoui faxed from 16 telephone number 405-364-7202 an authorization to Pan Am to pay 17 for this deposit using his Arvest Bank debit card. Two charges 18 were made, one for $500, and the other for a thousand dollars. 19 Stipulation number or subparagraph JJ from the same 129, 20 applies to Exhibit FO -5521.54, and his reply is at FO-5521.55, 21 which we would move to introduce both of those. 22 THE COURT: All right. FO-5521.54 and .55 are both in. 23 (Government's Exhibits Nos. FO-5521.54 and FO-5521.55 24 were received in evidence.) 25 THE COURT: There was no objection? 709 1 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. NOVAK: On July 11th of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui received 4 an e-mail at his Internet address of email@example.com from 5 Matt Tierney of Pan Am Academy. "Zac, I need a shipping address 6 of your manuals. Operations wants to send them on Thursday, July 7 the 12th. Please e-mail or call with the address on Thursday. 8 Thank you, Matt Tierney." 9 Mr. Moussaoui responded then with the next e-mail, 10 saying "Hi, this is my temp address, Moussaoui, Zacarias, 209A 11 Wadsack Drive, Norman, Oklahoma 73072-7213." 12 Paragraph KK, the next stipulation. I will just publish 13 to the jury. 14 On July the 16th at 2001, Mr. Moussaoui received a 15 Federal Express package from Pan Am in Eagan, Minnesota. 16 The next stipulation, Your Honor, is stipulation 135 and 17 a supplemental stipulation that we filed with the Court which we 18 have now marked ST-2. It is stipulation 135. And the attendant 19 exhibit is FO-5521.57, which we would also move into evidence. 20 THE COURT: All right. Now, are you moving in 21 stipulation 2 as an exhibit as well? 22 MR. NOVAK: Yes. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 MR. NOVAK: It is ST-2. There are two supplemental 25 stipulations. 710 1 THE COURT: ST-2 is in evidence, as is FO-5521.57. 2 (Government's Exhibit Nos. ST-2 and FO-5521.57 were 3 received in evidence.) 4 MR. NOVAK: This stipulation provides, Your Honor, on 5 July 16th of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui sent an e-mail from 6 firstname.lastname@example.org to Alan McHale at Pan Am Flight Academy, 7 that stated: "Hi. I just received the training manuals. Thank 8 you. Could you tell me what chapter I should read and what should 9 be memorized in order to prepare for the SIM? Thank you." 10 The next stipulation, Your Honor, is subparagraph LL of 11 stipulation 129 of ST-1, and the attendant exhibit there is 12 Exhibit FO-5521.58, which we would move into evidence. 13 THE COURT: All right. That one is also in. 14 (Government's Exhibit No. FO-5521.58 was received in 15 evidence.) 16 MR. NOVAK: And that provides on July the 16th of 2001, 17 Mr. Moussaoui received an e-mail at email@example.com from 18 Alan McHale at the Pan Am Flight Academy that stated: "Could I 19 please have your full name and what airplane you will be training 20 on so I can look it up and give you the correct information? 21 Thank you, Alan." 22 The next stipulation, Your Honor, is subparagraphs MM, 23 and the attendant exhibit is Exhibit FO-5521.59, which we would 24 offer. 25 THE COURT: All right, that's in. 711 1 (Government's Exhibit No. FO-5521.59 was received in 2 evidence.) 3 MR. NOVAK: That stipulation provides on July the 21st 4 of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui sent an e-mail from firstname.lastname@example.org 5 to Alan McHale at Pan Am Academy that states: "Hi. My name is 6 Moussaoui Zacarias. I spoke to you on the phone last week and I 7 did receive the four manual relating to the training on the 8 B747-400. I am the person who will get a custom training on the 9 operating manual volume 1 from the introduction to the operating 10 procedure (checklist, preflight) and the all SOPA are missing. 11 Why? Could you send it to me on express because, like you explain 12 to me, I should get familiarized with SOPA and SMAC. At the 13 moment I study the SMAC but I need the rest. Thank you for your 14 help. Mrs. Zac." 15 The next stipulation, Your Honor, is subparagraphs NN of 16 129 and the attendant exhibit is FO-5521.60. 17 THE COURT: All right. That's in. 18 MR. NOVAK: That we would offer. 19 THE COURT: That's in evidence. 20 (Government's Exhibit No. FO-5521.60 was received in 21 evidence.) 22 MR. NOVAK: That stipulation reads as follows: On July 23 23rd of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui received an e-mail at his Internet 24 address from Alan McHale at Pan Am Flight Academy that stated: 25 "Mr. Moussaoui Zacarias, I have e-mailed this to Michael, my 712 1 technical publications manager, and he will get you a copy of the 2 missing materials. Thanks, Alan." 3 The next stipulation is subparagraph OO, and the 4 attendant exhibit is Exhibit FO-5521.61, which we would offer. 5 THE COURT: That's in. 6 (Government's Exhibit No. FO-5521.61 was received in 7 evidence.) 8 MR. NOVAK: The stipulation provides: On July the 25th 9 of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui received an e-mail at his Internet address 10 from Matt Tierney at Pan Am Flight Academy that stated: 11 "Zacarias, please call me, I have your training schedule, Matt 12 Tierney." 13 The next stipulation is subparagraphs PP and that reads 14 as follows: On or about July 30th of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui received 15 a Federal Express package from Pan Am in Eagan, Minnesota. 16 Included in this package was Mr. Moussaoui's simulator training 17 schedule. 18 If I could publish stipulation, subparagraph QQ, along 19 with the attendant exhibit of MN-617.2, which I offer. 20 THE COURT: MN-617.2? 21 MR. NOVAK: Yes, Your Honor. 22 THE COURT: That's in. 23 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-617.2 was received in 24 evidence.) 25 MR. NOVAK: On July the 31st of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui 713 1 received an e-mail at his Internet address, email@example.com, 2 from Dana Wilson, the flight training administrator for Pan Am 3 International Flight Academy, and it included the following 4 schedule for Mr. Moussaoui's training. 5 It read: "Hello, Matt Tierney asked me to e-mail you 6 the schedule that we put together for your 747-400 training. I 7 will be the scheduler working with you so you can direct any 8 questions to me. The schedule is as follows: First, Monday, 9 August the 13th, 1200, NATCO building, orientation with Michael 10 Guess, 1300 to 1700 hours. That's a lecture. The location is Pan 11 Am Commons, Room E, and the instructor is Clancy Prevost. 12 Tuesday, August 14th, 1300 to 1700, lecture, again the 13 location Pan Am Commons, Room E, with the instructor being Clancy 14 Prevost. Wednesday, August 15th, off. Thursday, August 16th, 15 1800 to 2100, 1700 brief, NATCO building, 747-400 Sim Number 7, 16 instructor Richard Lamb. 17 Friday, August 17th, day off. Saturday, August 18th 18 then, from 1800 to 2100, 1700 brief, NATCO building, 747-400 Sim 19 Number 7, instructor Richard Lamb. And then on Sunday, August the 20 19th, 1800 to 2100, 1700 brief, in the NATCO building, for 747-400 21 Sim Number 7, instructor Richard Lamb. The last day, Monday, 22 August the 20th, 1800-2100, 1700 brief, NATCO building, 747-400 23 Sim Number 7, instructor Richard Lamb. 24 There is also some instructions about where to go for 25 the hotel. 714 1 To move on to exhibit RR -- attendant Exhibit Number 2 FO-5521.75, which I would offer. 3 THE COURT: That's in. 4 (Government's Exhibit No. FO-5521.75 was received in 5 evidence.) 6 MR. NOVAK: On August the 8th of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui 7 sent an e-mail from firstname.lastname@example.org to Alan McHale that 8 stated: "Hello, could you give me a list of motel close to your 9 location. I will be arriving in Minneapolis by car on Saturday. 10 Thank you, Mrs. Zacarias (custom training)." 11 Moving to stipulation subparagraph SS. On August the 12 9th of -- I'm sorry, and attendant Exhibit FO-5521-76, which we 13 would offer. 14 THE COURT: Dash or point? 15 MR. NOVAK: I'm sorry, point. 16 THE COURT: Okay, it is in. 17 (Government's Exhibit No. FO-5521.76 was received in 18 evidence.) 19 MR. NOVAK: Let me do this again, FO-5521.76. That's 20 what happens when you sit too long. 21 On August the 9th of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui sent an e-mail 22 from email@example.com to B. Toutgas at Pan Am, that said: 23 "Here is my fax number, 405-364-7209. Can you send it this 24 morning because I will be leaving very soon. Thanks for your 25 help. P.S.: Motel for two persons, that's what I am looking 715 1 for." 2 Subparagraph TT and the attendant exhibit of FO-5521.78, 3 which we would offer. 4 THE COURT: It is in. 5 (Government's Exhibit No. FO-5521.78 was received in 6 evidence.) 7 MR. NOVAK: On August the 12th of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui 8 sent an e-mail from firstname.lastname@example.org to Matt Tierney at Pan 9 Am Academy that said: "Hi, I am in Minneapolis. I will go 10 tomorrow to the center as you described in the schedule that you 11 send to me. Thank you." 12 And then stipulation EEE which provides as follows, Your 13 Honor. Exhibit -- strike that. 14 On August the 13th of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui began training 15 at the Pan Am International Academy, at 2600 Loan Oak Point in 16 Eagan, Minnesota. Mr. Moussaoui paid $6800 in cash to Pan Am 17 International on August the 13th, 2001. When it became readily 18 apparent to the instructors that Mr. Moussaoui lacked the minimal 19 skills for the training, the training schedule previously set 20 forth by Pan Am was abandoned. 21 Judge, we have a series of the Pan Am records which have 22 certified declarations to them, and if I haven't already 23 introduced them, I am just going to move for them all right now 24 and read off the numbers if I might. 25 THE COURT: Just do it slowly. 716 1 MR. NOVAK: MN-150. 2 THE COURT: Go ahead. 3 MR. NOVAK: Is a declaration for Exhibits 151 through 4 156, which we would move all of those in. 5 THE COURT: All right. So MN-150 and 151 through 156 6 are in. 7 (Government's Exhibits Nos. MN-150 through MN-156 were 8 received in evidence.) 9 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection. 10 THE COURT: It has all been stipulated to. 11 MR. MAC MAHON: Yes. 12 MR. NOVAK: We also have a declaration for Exhibit 13 MN-515, which we would offer as well. 14 THE COURT: 515 as well. 15 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-515 was received in 16 evidence.) 17 MR. NOVAK: And we would call Clancy Prevost. 18 CLARENCE E. PREVOST, GOVERNMENT'S WITNESS, AFFIRMED 19 MR. NOVAK: May I proceed, Your Honor? 20 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 21 DIRECT EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. NOVAK: 23 Q. Good morning, sir. Can you state your full name, spelling 24 both your first and last names. 25 A. Clarence Earl Prevost, P-r-e-v-o-s-t, Clarence. 717 1 Q. I'm sorry, go ahead. 2 A. My nickname is Clancy. 3 Q. Okay. Do you want to spell Clancy? 4 A. C-l-a-n-c-y. 5 Q. Mr. Prevost, how old are you? 6 A. 68. 7 Q. And what do you do for a living? 8 A. I'm a simulator flight instructor. 9 Q. And are you also a pilot? 10 A. I used to be a pilot for Northwest Airlines. 11 Q. And when did you become a pilot? 12 A. I enlisted in the Navy in 1963 and learned to fly in the 13 Navy. 14 Q. Okay. And how long were you in the Navy? 15 A. Five years. 16 Q. Why don't you try to keep your voice up a little, maybe pull 17 the microphone a little bit closer. Sorry, you were in the Navy 18 for how long? 19 A. Five years. 20 Q. And when you left the Navy, what was your rank? 21 A. Lieutenant. 22 Q. And while you were in the Navy, were you a pilot during the 23 entire time? 24 A. Yes, I was. 25 Q. And could you describe for the ladies and gentlemen what you 718 1 did as a pilot in the Navy? 2 A. I was in the squadron VW-4, which was the Hurricane Hunters. 3 I flew WC-121 aircraft, which is the old Super G Constellation. 4 Q. Okay. And approximately how many hours of flight time did 5 you have while a member of the United States Navy? 6 A. 2,000. 7 Q. All right. Now, when you left the Navy in 1968, could you 8 tell us where you went to work? 9 A. I left -- I left the Navy in July of '68 and started at 10 Northwest Airlines August 8th, 1968. 11 Q. And where is Northwest Airlines located at? 12 A. Minneapolis, Minnesota. 13 Q. And when you started at Northwest Airlines, could you tell us 14 what was your job? 15 A. I started as a flight engineer on the 727 and progressed 16 along in the various seats of the aircraft that Northwest Airlines 17 was flying at the time. 18 Q. Rising to what rank at the end? 19 A. At the end I was certified as captain on the 727, the DC-10 20 and the 747-400. 21 Q. And you served as a pilot then for -- well, you left 22 Northwest when? 23 A. I lost my FAA medical in 1992, and I medically retired in 24 1992. 25 Q. Do you want to tell the folks why it is you had to take a 719 1 medical retirement? 2 A. I was diagnosed -- my last flight was Christmas Eve 1991, 3 then I was diagnosed in the first part of January with a brain 4 tumor. 5 Q. And did you have to have brain surgery then as a result of 6 that? 7 A. I had brain surgery. 8 Q. And that's the reason why you lost your medical clearance? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. All right. During those approximately 24 years that you 11 worked for Northwest Airlines, approximately how many hours of 12 flight time did you have as a pilot there? 13 A. I never kept a logbook. I kept my pay sheets, which had the 14 time on them, but I had somewhere between 10- and 15,000 hours. 15 Q. Okay. Now, after your brain surgery and you healed, at some 16 point did you go back to work? 17 A. Yes. In 1998 I went up to a company, a subsidiary company of 18 Northwest Airlines called CrueSource, who did their contract 19 training at the NATCO Training Center in Eagan, Minnesota and 20 applied for a job, and they hired me. 21 Q. As what? 22 A. As a DC-10 pilot instructor. 23 Q. All right. Now, you talked about NATCO. Do you want to tell 24 the folks what NA TCO stands for? 25 A. NATCO is an acronym for the Northwest Airlines Aerospace 720 1 Training Center. 2 Q. Okay. Where is that located at? 3 A. Eagan, Minnesota. 4 Q. Is that where Northwest Airlines trains its own pilots? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Now, in addition to -- and they train them on simulators; is 7 that correct? 8 A. Simulators. 9 Q. Which we will talk about that in a minute. 10 But in addition to Northwest raining their own pilots, 11 do they sell time on their simulators to other companies? 12 A. Yes, they do. 13 Q. And was that that company you work for, CrueSource? 14 A. CrueSource did the contract training, the North -- that came 15 to Northwest Training Center for instruction on different 16 particular airplanes. 17 Q. All right. So basically you are teaching non-Northwest 18 pilots on the Northwest equipment; is that right? 19 A. That's right. 20 Q. And you worked for CrueSource for how long? 21 A. The Northwest contract business was bought by the Pan 22 American Flight Academy and the transition was in August or, I'm 23 sorry, about May of 2000. 24 Q. And when it was turned over to Pan Am Flight Academy, did you 25 join Pan Am as well? 721 1 A. Yes. We just all were on the second floor and we walked 2 downstairs from the north -- from the CrueSource offices to the 3 Pan Am offices. 4 Q. All right. 5 A. It was the same instructors. 6 Q. All right. So you did the same thing? 7 A. Same thing. 8 Q. Just different company then; is that right? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Still working off the same Northwest simulators in the same 11 NATCO building; is that right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And you worked at Pan Am from 2000, you said, what, the 14 spring of 2001? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Until when? 17 A. I left in October of 2004. 18 Q. Okay. If we could, with Mr. Wood's help, if we could show 19 the witness Exhibits MN-111, 112, and 113. 20 THE COURT: Is there any objection to those exhibits? 21 MR. TROCCOLI: No objection, Your Honor. 22 THE COURT: All right. So they are all in. 23 (Government's Exhibits Nos. MN-111, MN-112, and MN-113 24 were received in evidence.) 25 MR. NOVAK: Thank you, Judge. While Mr. Wood is looking 722 1 for them then, may we just display them on the screen then, Judge? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 BY MR. NOVAK: 4 Q. If you want to take a look at the television monitor next to 5 you, Mr. Prevost. 6 A. All right. 7 Q. Do you want to tell us what it is on Exhibit MN-11 that we're 8 looking at? 9 A. That's the sign that's out in front of the NATCO Training 10 Center. 11 Q. Okay. If we can go to Exhibit 112, please. What are we 12 looking at there, Mr. Prevost? 13 A. That's the NATCO Training Center. 14 Q. Okay. And then in Exhibit 113, if we can display that on the 15 screen as well. 16 A. That's the front door of NATCO. 17 Q. And is the Pan Am Flight Academy located within that 18 building; is that right? 19 A. When they bought the contract training, their offices were on 20 the first floor, as you walk in the front door to the right. 21 Q. If we can put that down, thank you. 22 Now, you told us, Mr. Prevost, that as the 23 subcontracting company which then -- which became Pan Am, that you 24 taught non-Northwest pilots how to fly; is that right? 25 A. That's correct. 723 1 Q. And could you tell us generally who your students were? 2 A. They were -- the major airlines all have their own training 3 centers and simulators, so these would be second and third-tier 4 and foreign carriers that did not have simulators and needed to 5 contract with somebody else who had them for the training for 6 their pilots. 7 Q. Okay. And would those second and third tier, the foreign 8 airlines, generally be the ones that are paying for that training? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. I gather this training is rather expensive; is that right? 11 A. I had an individual came through that I instructed on the 12 747-400 from KAL, a Russian, and he paid $29,000 for the type 13 rating. 14 Q. Now, what type of planes were you instructing on at the Pan 15 Am Academy? 16 A. At the Pan Am Academy when I was first hired by them I did 17 DC-10 training, but not at NATCO, down at the American Airlines 18 facility in Dallas. But when I started instructing at NATCO, I 19 only instructed on the 747-400. 20 Q. For those of us that are not familiar with jet airplanes, I 21 want you to -- actually, a couple of questions to see if you can 22 explain it to us in terms of the progression in terms of the more 23 advanced jets. And I want to start with a 727 airline. Can you 24 tell us basically chronologically when did that jet come into 25 play? 724 1 A. That was late 1950s technology. And it was literally the 2 last airplane that you hand-flew. It did not have a flight 3 guidance system. 4 Q. Everything was manual; is that correct? 5 A. Everything was manual. 6 Q. If we were to analogize that to driving a car, that's kind of 7 like driving cars with standard transmissions; is that right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Now, could you tell us the difference between a 727 and a 10 747-400 jet? 11 A. The 727 -- the 747-400 was a computer airplane. And it was 12 meant to be flown by the computer and it was meant to be flown by 13 a flight guidance system. It was not meant to be hand-flown. 14 Q. And when did that come around, basically? 15 A. I think that the 400 came on the line somewhere around 1988, 16 plus, maybe minus a year, but certainly 1988. 17 Q. All right. 18 MR. NOVAK: If we might, Your Honor, I would like to 19 show the witness Exhibit MN-105 if we could. 20 THE COURT: Any objection? 21 MR. TROCCOLI: No objection, Your Honor. 22 THE COURT: All right. It is in. 23 (Government Exhibit No. MN-105 was received in 24 evidence.) 25 MR. NOVAK: May we bring it up on the screen then for 725 1 the witness? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 BY MR. NOVAK: 4 Q. Can you tell us what we're looking at there, Mr. Prevost? 5 A. That's the 747-400. 6 Q. All right. And now you were talking about the fact that it 7 is much more advanced in terms of computer-wise. Could you tell 8 us exactly what operates the flight guidance system in a 747-400? 9 A. There are two computers, in-flight computers. You program 10 the computer and the flight guidance system will take the program 11 that you input to the computer, which is a navigation program, and 12 if you choose, you can have the airplane fly once it is in the air 13 from where you leave to where you are going. 14 However, while you are in the air, if you choose to not 15 have the navigation computer engaged, then when you are going to 16 approach an airport, you can revert to the mode control panel and 17 put pilot inputs into the mode control panel, still part of the 18 computer flight guidance system, but then the pilot can input the 19 mode control panel and have the airplane do what he wants it to 20 do. 21 Q. We're going to talk about the mode control panel here in a 22 second, but do pilots refer to the 747-400 as having the glass 23 cockpit? 24 A. It is glass, yes. 25 Q. Do you want to tell us what the meaning of that is? 726 1 A. The older airplanes have analog dials, we call them steam 2 gauges. And we have pointers. They have calibrated gauges that 3 have pointers that tell you what -- basically information you 4 receive, you receive from the pointer. 5 Glass is -- there are no steam gauges. There are CRT 6 screens, cathode ray tubes, and everything is presented on a 7 cathode ray tube, which is a television screen ostensibly. And 8 all the information is displayed digital and on the TV. 9 Q. So I guess the best way to analogize between the difference 10 between the plane, the 747-400 with the mode control panel, the 11 glass cockpit versus the old 727 is the difference between having 12 a digital watch and having the old dial face watch, basically; is 13 that right? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Now, going back to the mode control panel for a second, if 16 Mr. Wood would be kind enough to get us a chart, the big chart, 17 MN-101. 18 THE COURT: Are you going to be moving MN-101 into 19 evidence? 20 THE COURT: Yes, Your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Is there any objection to that? 22 MR. TROCCOLI: No objection. 23 THE COURT: It is in. 24 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-101 was received in 25 evidence.) 727 1 MR. NOVAK: I am also going to be moving 102 and 103 as 2 well in a second. 3 THE COURT: Any objection to those? 4 MR. TROCCOLI: No, Your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Then they are in as well. 6 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-102, MN-103 were received 7 in evidence.) 8 MR. NOVAK: Thank you, Judge. 9 BY MR. NOVAK: 10 Q. If we can start with MN-101. That's it, Mr. Wood. Thank 11 you. 12 Mr. Prevost, could you see the exhibit MN-101 from where 13 you are sitting there? 14 A. Sort of. 15 THE COURT: You need to put it back maybe, Mr. Wood, 16 pull it back about six inches. There you go. 17 MR. NOVAK: Thank you, Mr. Wood. 18 Q. First of all, Mr. Prevost, are we looking at the portion of 19 the 747-400 that depicts the mode control panel? 20 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I don't think all the jurors can 21 see the exhibit. It has been to be turned better. Can everybody 22 in the box see it? 23 MR. NOVAK: Maybe we can hold it up behind Mr. Prevost 24 for a second, if Mr. Wood wouldn't mind doing that. I am only 25 going to use this for a second, Judge. 728 1 THE COURT: All right, okay. 2 BY MR. NOVAK: 3 Q. Could you just, again, Mr. Prevost, does that depict what a 4 mode control panel looks like in a 747-400? 5 A. The whole picture is called the forward instrument panel. 6 The mode control panel is up here on what we call the glare shield 7 panel. This is the mode control panel on the top. 8 Q. All right. And the mode control panel, does that allow a 9 pilot to basically fly the entire plane while it is in the air? 10 A. Yes, you never have to hand-fly it. 11 Q. Is there anything on the -- any action that you have to take 12 with a plane that you cannot take with a mode control panel? 13 A. You cannot make a takeoff on the automatics, and the only -- 14 after the airplane is in the air, the only thing you have to do 15 manually is raise and lower the flaps and raise and lower the 16 gear. 17 Q. So basically if somebody knew how to operate the mode control 18 panel, once that plane is in the air, they could run that plane; 19 is that right? 20 A. That's correct, all the way to a landing and to a roll-out 21 and to a stop. 22 MR. NOVAK: If Mr. Wood could be kind enough to just 23 bring forward for a moment MN-102, one of the two bigger ones. 24 BY MR. NOVAK: 25 Q. While he is doing that, I will just ask you very briefly, 729 1 Mr. Prevost, are you also familiar with what a mode control panel 2 looks like in a 757-400? 3 A. Cursorily, except I know they are the same from -- I have 4 been in a 757 cockpit, and it is a Boeing airplane. 5 Q. I'm sorry, showing you Exhibit 102, is that, does that depict 6 among other things the mode control panel for a 757? 7 A. It is a two-engine airplane. And the fact that the CRT 8 screens are vertical, I would say that that's a 757. 9 Q. Okay. And would basically -- other than the screens being 10 one on top of each other instead of to the side, are the mode 11 control panels the same between the 757 and the 747? 12 A. Yes, right. 13 Q. And could we bring up the next exhibit, 103, the other chart. 14 And I will just ask you, Mr. Prevost, does that depict a mode 15 control panel for a 767-400? 16 A. It is a two-engine airplane and it has the vertical screens 17 and, yes, it looks like a 767. 18 Q. Okay. The mode control panel, that's the jiggers there in 19 the middle; is that right? 20 A. Yes, on the glare shield panel on the top of the forward 21 instrument panel. 22 Q. And is that essentially the same as the 747-400 as well? 23 A. There is only one button that's different, but it is the 24 same. 25 Q. All right. We can put that down. Thank you, Mr. Wood, for 730 1 your help. 2 So, Mr. Prevost, if somebody could operate a mode 3 control panel for a 747-400, would they necessarily then be able 4 to operate the mode control panel for a 757 as well as a 767? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. All right. Now, going back to the training that you all do 7 out there in the Pan Am Academy, do you train your students on 8 actual planes or do you train them on simulators? 9 A. Simulators only. 10 Q. And why is it that you train the students on just simulators 11 and not airplanes? 12 A. When the simulator was invented, which I would guess 13 somewhere about the mid-'70s, we used to train on airplanes in the 14 early '70s and the '60s but you have to take the airplane out of 15 service. And that means it is not generating any revenue. And 16 also you are burning a lot of gas because the normal training 17 flight is four hours. 18 And so they stopped, when the simulator was invented, 19 they stopped training in the airplane because the simulator is the 20 exact feel of an airplane and you don't need to train in the 21 airplane. 22 Q. So it is too expensive to fly the plane; is that right? 23 A. Too expensive. 24 Q. And if you can fly a simulator, can you fly the plane? 25 A. As a matter of fact, when you are trained in the simulator, 731 1 you walk from the simulator to the airplane and start work flying 2 an airplane. 3 Q. Somebody can get a job, never having stepped in the actual 4 airplane; is that right? 5 A. That's right. 6 Q. All right. Now, in addition to the cost benefits that you 7 described for using the simulator, is there any advantages to you 8 as an instructor for using a simulator versus a real plane? 9 A. Yes, a lot. 10 Q. Can you describe to the jury what those advantages are? 11 A. Well, when you train in the airplane, you can't have these 12 guys going around the sky shutting engines down and setting them 13 on fire. People on the ground are to be protected. 14 And in the simulator, you can put an engine on fire, you 15 can do any emergency that can possibly happen to an airplane 16 without jeopardizing anybody's life or the safety of an airplane. 17 Q. You get your students in a worst case scenario, without 18 worrying about them getting killed; is that right? 19 A. You can crash the simulator and take your lunch box and go 20 home. 21 Q. Okay. Now, approximately, the Pan Am Flight Academy using 22 the NATCO facility has access to a number of simulators; is that 23 correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And do you want to tell the jury approximately how many 732 1 simulators that you-all would have access to? 2 A. I never counted them, but there would be somewhere between 15 3 and 35, 30 or 35 simulators. 4 Q. And is there a number of simulators for each of the various 5 types of planes, like so many for a 747-400, so many for a 757, 6 '67 and so forth? 7 A. Whatever airplane Northwest flew, they would have two 8 simulators for each of their type of airplanes. 9 Q. So you are familiar with the fact that they had at least two 10 simulators then for the 747-400? 11 A. There were two simulators, yes. 12 Q. And was one of those simulators known as simulator number 7? 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. NOVAK: Your Honor, I would move, I would ask 15 Mr. Wood to accumulate Exhibits 114 through 128, which I would 16 offer. 17 THE COURT: Any objection? 18 MR. TROCCOLI: No objection, Your Honor. 19 THE COURT: All right. These have no letters in front 20 of them? 21 MR. NOVAK: I'm sorry, MN-114 to 128. 22 THE COURT: Okay, MN-114 to 128 are all in. 23 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-144 to MN-128 were received 24 in evidence.) 25 BY MR. NOVAK: 733 1 Q. And I will ask you, before we start showing you the 2 photographs on the screen, Mr. Prevost, when we're talking about 3 simulators, are we talking about looking at a little video game 4 like on your television screen or are we talking about something 5 quite different? 6 A. No, these are million dollar pieces of engineering, 7 multi-million dollar. They are expensive and they absolutely 8 replicate an airplane in flight. 9 Q. And are they able to recreate the movement of a plane? 10 A. To exactness. 11 Q. So for those of us who are not too fond of flying, if I were 12 to get in that simulator and we were to start flying, would I get 13 motion sickness, perhaps? 14 A. You could. They can program turbulence. 15 Q. I would feel just as if I were in the plane; is that right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. If we can start off with Exhibit MN-114 on the screen. We're 18 going to go through these series of photographs, Mr. Prevost, and 19 I am going to ask you if you would be kind enough to tell the jury 20 what it is that we're looking at on the screen? 21 A. That's a simulator. 22 Q. Okay. Is that the outside of simulator, particularly 23 simulator number 7? 24 A. It is. If on the screen is the same one I have in the little 25 notebook here. 734 1 Q. You can take my word for it that we're not going to trick 2 you. We're going to put the real photos up there. 3 A. Okay, that's number 7. 4 Q. All right. And to the next exhibit, MN-115. 5 A. That's the simulator and the depiction of the hydraulic 6 jacks, which provide the motion that you would feel inside the 7 simulator, simulating flight. 8 Q. And MN-116? 9 A. That's a forward picture of the simulator. And it looks, 10 since it is tilted, it is in what we call on-motion. It is up on 11 its jacks. 12 Q. Okay. MN-117? 13 A. That's the ramp that goes into the simulator. 14 Q. MN-118? 15 A. As you walk into the simulator down the ramp, the access 16 ramp, you are looking inside at the cockpit. 17 Q. The next one, MN-118, I believe? 18 A. You have walked through the door and now you are inside the 19 simulator, and that's the 747-400 cockpit. 20 Q. Now, could you tell us is there any difference between that 21 cockpit and what a real 747-400 cockpit would look like? 22 A. The difference is the TV screen on the left is the instructor 23 panel where he puts in malfunctions and abnormals and anomalies 24 and programs the training flight. In a real 747-400, that would 25 not be there, and there would be what they call a first observer 735 1 seat behind the captain's chair. And behind that seat there would 2 be a second observer's seat on the left side of the airplane. 3 Q. Okay. And then 120? 4 A. That's the depiction of a 747-400 control station. 5 Q. And where is that mode control panel that you were talking 6 about? 7 A. That's on the glare shield above the CRT screens. 8 Q. Okay. MN-121? What are we looking at here? You know, you 9 can look at the screen. It might be easier. 10 A. Okay. That's the simulator instructor's panel. 11 Q. MN-122? 12 A. Those are -- that is a 747-400 manual. 13 Q. And is that manual kept within the simulator? 14 A. Yes. There is always in the airplane and in the simulator, 15 there is always a current set of books, manuals. 16 Q. So that would be, if we were flying in a real 747-400, would 17 that, would the plane also have one of those as well? 18 A. That book would be there. 19 Q. Okay. The next exhibit is MN-123. What are we looking at 20 with all those buttons there? 21 A. That's the circuit breaker panel on the, behind the pilot 22 overhead panel. And the circuit breaker panel is just like 23 circuit breakers in your house. If there is an electrical 24 malfunction, they trip. 25 Q. Exhibit MN-124? 736 1 A. That's the captain's control column on the left side, left 2 seat of the airplane. 3 Q. MN-125? 4 A. That's a CDU, which is an acronym for computer display unit. 5 That's the keypad that programs the flight computer. 6 Q. MN-126? 7 A. That's the mode control panel. 8 Q. Right there on the dash, basically; is that right? 9 A. Yes, the top part of the picture is the pilot overhead. 10 Q. Okay. 127, MN-127, what is that a photo of? 11 A. That's the forward wind screen. And in a simulator it is a 12 TV screen and actually it shows if you are flying, whatever 13 airport you are flying to, it will give you a depiction of the 14 runway and buildings and topography around the airport, kind of 15 computer -- it is sort of a computer presentation but it is 16 accurate to the airport that you are -- that's being depicted. 17 Q. So, for example, in a photograph MN-128 then, if we were 18 sitting in the pilot's chair and looking out the window, so to 19 speak, we would see some kind of generated thing like this; is 20 that right? 21 A. Well, that's the overrun, and before the takeoff point of a 22 runway, and that's a runway. 23 Q. Okay. All right. We can put the photos down and we can move 24 on. 25 Now, let me ask you this, Mr. Prevost. Does the 737 1 simulators have to be certified in any fashion? 2 A. The FAA inspects them once a year. 3 Q. And do they have to get certified for you-all to use them? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And what about you as an instructor, do you have to get 6 certified in any fashion by the FAA? 7 A. I have to take a -- depending on the flight schools that I'm 8 working for, I may have one check ride a year or two check rides a 9 year, one every six months or yearly, depending on how the flight 10 school is certificated. 11 Q. Now, could you tell us what exactly your goal is as an 12 instructor in relation to your students and describe for us the 13 level of the students that you have there? 14 A. Well, the students that come to CrueSource or Pan Am Flight 15 Academy usually have thousands of hours. They are looking to get 16 a better job or they are looking to upgrade within the company 17 that they are working for. And this means usually they have come 18 to your flight school to learn how to fly a bigger airplane 19 because there would be more money. 20 Q. So you are saying normally the students you have have 21 thousands of hours of student training or flight training? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And in general they are already professsional pilots when 24 they get there; is that right? 25 A. They are pilots. 738 1 Q. Did you ever have anyone, before you had contact with 2 Mr. Moussaoui, that had 55 hours of flight training? 3 A. No. 4 Q. And what's the lowest number of hours of training that you 5 had for any of your previous students? 6 A. Actually the lowest number that I can remember is a fellow 7 that came through and he had 600 hours of multi-engine. He 8 probably had a lot more hours of single-engine, but his -- the 600 9 hours of multi-engine was the lowest I ever had. 10 Q. And are you training them towards any type of FAA testing? 11 A. Yes. The end result of the training is they take an FAA 12 check ride, and if they pass the check ride, they get certificated 13 by the FAA to fly whatever airplane. That means they are 14 qualified to fly in that type of airplane. 15 Q. Is there any significance or consequence, maybe, to the 16 student if he fails his check ride? 17 A. He gets what's called a pink slip, and he loses his job. If 18 he can't -- he may be able to revert back to a previous airplane 19 and fly that, but he cannot fly the airplane that he is, the money 20 was spent to train him on. 21 Q. Let me ask you this: Is there any strike against the 22 instructor or any consequence to the instructor if one of your 23 students were to fail the FAA test? 24 A. There is no monetary penalty towards the instructor, but if 25 your students start failing check rides one after the other, 739 1 nobody would use the flight academy of which you were the 2 instructor. 3 Q. So you all take -- have you ever had a student fail, by the 4 way? 5 A. I have never had a student fail a check ride. 6 Q. So you take your training of your students pretty seriously 7 then? 8 A. Extremely. 9 Q. Now, directing your attention to August of 2001, did you have 10 an occasion to serve as an instructor for Zacarias Moussaoui? 11 A. I was his ground school instructor. 12 Q. Do you recognize him in this courtroom? 13 A. Yes, that's -- 14 Q. Could you point to him? 15 A. That's Zacarias there. I know him as Zac. 16 Q. Indicating for the record that Mr. Prevost has identified the 17 defendant, please. 18 THE COURT: Any objection? 19 MR. TROCCOLI: No, Your Honor, we will stipulate to 20 that. 21 THE COURT: All right. The record will so reflect. 22 BY MR. NOVAK: 23 Q. Let me ask you this, Mr. Prevost, looking at Mr. Moussaoui, 24 did he look like that back when he showed up at the Pan Am Flight 25 Academy? 740 1 A. He had a beard and a mustache and less facial hair, but 2 that's Zac. 3 Q. Okay. If we can put on the screen exhibit number or if we 4 can show the witness Exhibit Number GX-2, please. 5 THE COURT: Any objection? 6 MR. TROCCOLI: No objection,. 7 THE COURT: All right. It is in. 8 (Government's Exhibit No. GX-2 was received in 9 evidence.) 10 BY MR. NOVAK: 11 Q. Can we bring it up on the screen then perhaps. 12 Can you tell us, Mr. Prevost, is that what Mr. Moussaoui 13 looked like when you met him? 14 A. Yeah, he had a ball hat on, and I don't think I ever saw him 15 without his ball hat on. 16 Q. You mean a baseball cap? 17 A. A baseball cap. 18 Q. You never saw him without a baseball cap? 19 A. I don't think so. I can't recall that I did. 20 Q. Okay. Could you tell us who asked you to teach 21 Mr. Moussaoui? 22 A. Alan McHale. 23 Q. Okay. And who is Alan McHale? 24 A. He was second in command at the Pan Am Flight Academy under 25 John Rosengrin. 741 1 Q. And what did Mr. McHale tell you about Mr. Moussaoui when he 2 asked you to train him? 3 A. He said: We have a student coming through that has 55 hours 4 only of flight time and he has never solo'd an airplane and we 5 want you to -- we want you to be his instructor. 6 Q. All right. Well, having never had a student under 600 hours 7 before, did you think that was a little bit unusual? 8 A. I personally thought this was a guy who had too much money, 9 and he was just doing this as a -- like people with money go do 10 major league baseball training camps and wear the uniform. And I 11 thought that he was just fulfilling a dream to play on it. 12 Q. All right. Did you learn if he had flown previously on a 13 Cessna airplane? 14 A. Yes, a single engine airplane. 15 Q. If we can show -- you are familiar with Cessnas; is that 16 right? 17 A. Only that I would -- if somebody asked me what kind of Cessna 18 is that, I wouldn't be able to tell you, but if somebody said that 19 was a Cessna, if it is a single engine, I would say probably. 20 Q. All right. Well, let's show you Exhibit MN-108 if we could 21 show him that. 22 THE COURT: Any objection to 108? 23 MR. TROCCOLI: No objection, Your Honor. 24 THE COURT: All right, it is in. 25 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-108 was received in 742 1 evidence.) 2 BY MR. NOVAK: 3 Q. Maybe I could be the person to say: Does that look like a 4 Cessna? 5 A. That looks like every Cessna I have ever seen. 6 Q. All right. And comparing that Cessna to the 747-400 -- maybe 7 if we can return to the screen MN-105 -- are those very different 8 airplanes? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you want to tell the jurors -- obviously we can look and 11 see one is a jet and one is not, but can you tell us basically 12 what the big difference is? 13 A. The Cessna, of course, you have to hand-fly. And it is -- 14 there is more -- a Cessna is actually flying, when you fly a jumbo 15 jet, why, you do things that are -- let me think of the word -- 16 that there is statistics that tells you how the airplane would fly 17 and you follow those numbers like when you take off, you rotate to 18 12 degrees because you know all of the dispatchers have predicted 19 because of the weight, that's the pitch angle that you rotate and 20 the airplane will fly at that. 21 A Cessna, you fly it, it flies off the runway itself. 22 The 747-400, you have to know all the numbers and all of the go-to 23 characteristics that the airplane will fly at before you even go 24 down the runway. 25 Q. Okay. If we can put on the screen Exhibit FO-5521.57 that we 743 1 have previously introduced, which refers to an e-mail that was 2 sent from Mr. Moussaoui to Mr. McHale. And I am going to ask you 3 to take a look at that e-mail, Mr. Prevost. 4 I gather you didn't get a copy of this e-mail; is that 5 right? 6 A. No, I never saw it. 7 Q. But let me ask you this: Have any of your students ever 8 asked which chapters of a manual that they should actually look at 9 before they come to see you? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Should somebody that actually knows how to fly a plane, would 12 they know where to look in the book? 13 MR. TROCCOLI: Objection, Your Honor, as to "should 14 have." It is speculative. 15 MR. NOVAK: I will just reword it. 16 THE COURT: Reword the question. 17 BY MR. NOVAK: 18 Q. In your experience over the, well, first 24 years as a pilot 19 and all your years as a flight instructor, do pilots training at 20 the level that you are instructing know where to look in the book? 21 A. Yes, they know where to start. 22 Q. Let's talk about the books here for a second. If I could 23 show, we can show the witness Exhibit MN-508.1 and 508.2, which 24 are the red books there, Mr. Wood. 25 THE COURT: Any objection to those going in? 744 1 MR. TROCCOLI: No objection, Your Honor. 2 THE COURT: All right. So 508.1 and .2 are both in. 3 (Government's Exhibit Nos. MN-508.1 and MN-508.2 were 4 received in evidence.) 5 BY MR. NOVAK: 6 Q. Do you want to tell the folks what MN-508.1 is? 7 A. Okay. This is volume 1 out of three volumes. Volume 1 is 8 the aircraft operating manual. It tells you the profiles for the 9 various maneuvers that you do with an airplane like taking off and 10 landing, climbing to altitude. 11 Q. Does it tell you how all the systems work? 12 A. This is not a systems manual. The system manual is volume 2. 13 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. Can we flip that and go to volume 1, 14 508.1. 15 A. Okay. This is volume 2. This is -- 16 Q. I'll tell you what. Let's go back and let's start all over 17 again. Let's start with volume 1. 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. Do you have volume 1 there? 20 A. Yes, yes, I do. 21 Q. What is in volume 1? 22 A. Procedures. 23 Q. Okay. And to tell you what? 24 A. How to fly the airplane. 25 Q. Okay. And what is in volume 2? 745 1 A. Systems. 2 Q. Okay. And what is contained there? 3 A. There are basically four major systems on an airplane; 4 electronic, electrical, hydraulics, fuel, and pneumatics. And 5 then there are subsystems off the various systems, hydraulics run 6 the landing gear, the flight controls, the pneumatics run the 7 air-conditioning and pressurization, so it is systems and 8 subsystems are the mechanical makeup of the airplane. 9 Q. Okay. And those books, those are the kind of books that were 10 in that picture in the simulator that was sitting on the shelf 11 there? 12 A. That's right. 13 Q. We can put those aside. 14 Now, Mr. Prevost, going back to the conversation you had 15 with Mr. McHale when he asked you to train Mr. Moussaoui and when 16 he told you how many hours he had, did you agree to train 17 Mr. Moussaoui? 18 A. I did. 19 Q. Could you tell us why it is that you agreed to do that 20 since -- 21 A. I can tell you. I needed the money. 22 Q. When you say you needed the money, are you there as a 23 contract employee? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And do you actually live in the same state as the Pan Am 746 1 Academy? 2 A. No. 3 Q. And do you fly in for the training and fly back to the state 4 that you live in? 5 A. In those days they actually would get a motel for the 6 instructors who flew in and pay per diem, and so I would live in a 7 motel when I was there doing an assignment. 8 Q. Okay. Now, by the way, did you have any concerns about the 9 fact that this student, Mr. Moussaoui, was not gearing his 10 training towards something that would have FAA review of at some 11 point? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do generally your students try to get some kind of FAA 14 certification, though? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, if we can show the witness the schedule that we showed 17 earlier, Exhibit MN-617.3. We can just put it on the screen 18 because it has already been introduced. Thank you. 19 Now, do you recognize MN-617.3 as a Pan Am schedule for 20 Mr. Moussaoui? 21 A. That's the format that the schedules come out. Now, that was 22 printed on August 13th. I had one, I think, that was earlier, 23 because as I see this, it was -- I showed up at 10:00 o'clock 24 because I was told that I was to meet him at 10:00 o'clock on 25 Monday morning. 747 1 MR. NOVAK: Okay. 2 THE COURT: Mr. Novak, speaking of time, it is 11:00 3 o'clock, so we will take the morning break until 11:20. 4 (Recess at 11:00 a.m., until 11:20 a.m.) 5 (Defendant and Jury in.) 6 MR. NOVAK: May I proceed, Your Honor? 7 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 8 BY MR. NOVAK 9 Q. I think we had the schedule up on the screen here, MN-617.3. 10 Mr. Prevost, I see on the schedule that you were slated to have 11 contact with Mr. Moussaoui on Monday, August 13, and on Tuesday, 12 August 14; is that correct? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. And you were supposed to give him a four-hour lecture on each 15 day; is that right? 16 A. It was -- I thought that I was going to have four hours or 17 maybe three in the morning, but certainly four in the afternoon. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. Of each day. 20 Q. I'm sorry? 21 A. Of each day. 22 Q. Okay. And could you tell us what you intended to teach him 23 on those two days? 24 A. I was really at sea. I didn't know what I was going to do, 25 because for somebody to come in with that type of lack of 748 1 knowledge about aircraft and aircraft systems, I knew I was in for 2 a difficult time, and I didn't know what I was going to do. 3 Q. Okay. Did you think about trying to do a ground school 4 instruction to the defendant? 5 A. Would you say that one again, please? 6 Q. Okay. Ground school. Do you teach ground school? 7 A. I was going to teach him ground school. 8 Q. Okay. Could you tell the folks -- 9 MR. NOVAK: And we could put the schedule down off the 10 screen there, Gerard, if you would? 11 Q. Do you want to tell the folks what ground school instruction 12 is? 13 A. Ground school for airline people to come through is basically 14 you teach systems, aircraft systems that are particular to the 15 aircraft that they're going to learn how to fly. 16 Q. Okay. Now, I want to bring you to August 13. In the 17 morning, is that when you first met the defendant, Mr. Moussaoui? 18 A. It is. 19 Q. And could you tell us about what time it was that you first 20 met Mr. Moussaoui? 21 A. I went out to NATCO at, was there at probably ten in the 22 morning, probably a little earlier. He was not there yet. NATCO, 23 the classrooms that Pan Am used were in a remote building, so I 24 thought that he possibly might have been at the remote building. 25 I can't remember whether I went over to the remote classroom 749 1 building or not, but I first met Zac back at NATCO somewhere 2 around 10:30. 3 Q. And when you met Zac, was he alone, or was he with someone 4 else? 5 A. He was alone. 6 Q. Okay. Could you tell the folks how it was that he was 7 dressed? 8 A. He had on casual attire. He had on, like, Dockers-type 9 trousers that were not ironed. They weren't khaki-colored. They 10 were some darker-type color. He had on a sneaker-type shoe. He 11 had on a polo shirt and a ball cap. 12 Q. Okay. And did he look like that photo that I showed you on 13 the screen earlier today? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Absent -- but he had a baseball cap; is that right? 16 A. That's right. 17 Q. Now, anything about him that made you think he was a 18 terrorist when you saw him? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did he introduce himself to you? 21 A. I think -- usually when I run into my students, I introduce 22 myself, and I, I'm sure -- I went over and probably said: I'm 23 Clancy Prevost. I'm your instructor. Are you my student? 24 Because I didn't know his name. Nobody knew his name. 25 Q. Okay. Did he tell you at that time he was an al Qaeda 750 1 terrorist here to fly planes into buildings? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Okay. What did he tell you that he did for a living? Did 4 you ask him? 5 A. I did ask him. He said he was a businessman from London. I 6 said: What is your business? 7 He said: I'm in the import/export business. 8 And I asked him who was taking care of his business 9 while he was gone. He said his family. 10 Q. Okay. Did he tell you where he lived? 11 A. He said he lived in London, he was raised in France, and he 12 had a French passport and a Moroccan passport. 13 Q. Did you test his French out there a little bit? 14 A. We were walking out of the building, and I said -- I don't 15 know why I did it -- I said: Je parle francais un petit peux. 16 And he launched into, of course, fluent French, and I 17 said: Well, that's enough of that. 18 (Laughter.) 19 A. And I figured he speaks French; I don't. 20 Q. All right. So after those -- going back to the discussion 21 that he had about the fact that he was involved in his family 22 business, did he tell you how long -- strike that. 23 Did you ask him who was minding the shop while he was 24 away? 25 A. I did ask him that. I said: Well, who's taking care of your 751 1 business? 2 He said: Family. 3 Q. All right. Did he tell you if he had any time concerns about 4 how long he could be away as a result of that family business? 5 A. He did not tell me. 6 Q. Okay. Did he have any discussions with you on, about how 7 long his family -- 8 A. I'll -- let me add to that. He did mention that I have to -- 9 I'm going to have to get back at some point soon. 10 Q. Back to the family business? 11 A. Because of the family -- if that would be a time constraint. 12 He mentioned that he would have to return soon. 13 Q. Okay. Now, so you meet Mr. Moussaoui, and what do you do 14 with him? 15 A. Well, I said: Let's go over to the classroom building, and I 16 drew out the computer disk for the PowerPoint program. 17 Q. And is that for the ground school training? 18 A. That's for the ground school training. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. And we went over to the classroom building. And, as usual, 21 nothing was set up, so I spent some time getting the PowerPoint 22 projector and the screen set up, and actually one of the 23 secretaries was there and giving him his orientation while I was 24 trying to set up the, the PowerPoint, and we -- so that took about 25 a half-hour, I would say. 752 1 Q. Okay. After you got set up, did you start running the 2 PowerPoint presentation with him for ground school? 3 A. I did. 4 Q. Could you tell us -- tell the folks how that went. 5 A. Well, there were two things that were wrong. The Pan Am 6 computer disk was a -- it was a computer program on a disk, but it 7 also required an interactive program that was a software part of 8 that, and they didn't own the interactive program, and so I had 9 the computer disk, and it didn't have the audio presentation, and 10 it didn't have the interactive, which would be questions and 11 answers, and so I'm kind of freelancing about the airplane from 12 the PowerPoint, and we were in -- I could tell we were in trouble 13 right away on this in regards to trying to get anything across 14 that was meaningful. 15 Q. Now, when you say you were having problems, was it because he 16 was not a smart person or because he lacked the experience? 17 A. He had no frame of reference whatsoever of a commercial 18 airline. 19 Q. So you're referring to the experience part; is that right? 20 A. Experience, yes. 21 Q. Okay. And so how long did you try that ground school there 22 with him? 23 A. We talked kind of -- it wasn't so much that I made a formal 24 presentation, but I knew I was not going to accomplish anything, 25 and I'd say about after 15 minutes, I said: Let's go to lunch. 753 1 Q. Okay. And so did you go to lunch with him? 2 A. We did. 3 Q. Okay. Where did you take him to lunch? 4 A. The NATCO Training Center has a cafeteria on the second floor 5 that's run by Marriott, and we went over there. 6 Q. Okay. How long were you at that lunch? 7 A. I was trying to waste time, and we were there a long time. 8 I'm going to say two hours minimum. 9 Q. All right. Trying to waste time because of why? 10 A. I'm in trouble. Of course, he's a customer, and you're 11 trying to not have him going along on this and going, talking to 12 your supervisors and say: This is bogus, and so I tried to waste 13 as much time as I could because I knew that whenever we went back 14 to the classroom, that I'm not sure if anything meaningful was 15 ever going to be able to happen. 16 Q. Okay. So when you -- you spent a couple hours with him at 17 lunch. What did you-all talk about? 18 A. Well, it's fun up there. All the pilots come in. And I know 19 a lot of the guys because they're all Northwest guys coming in and 20 out, and some of the contract people. So we got our food, stood 21 in the cafeteria line, and that takes 20 minutes, and I was glad. 22 And then we went over and sat at a table, and the guys, we were 23 just hanging out with the guys. 24 Q. Okay. How was your conversation with Mr. Moussaoui? Did he 25 speak like a normal human being? 754 1 A. Oh, yeah. 2 Q. Anything that made you believe he was crazy or anything like 3 that? 4 A. No, no. 5 Q. Okay. And what did you-all talk about? Anything of 6 consequence? 7 A. Oh, I can't think of anything specific other than we seemed 8 to be getting along, and maybe airplanes a little bit and people 9 would come up, interrupt us, and say hello, and I'd be glad to see 10 them, but there was -- I don't think there was any specific 11 subject that they dwelled on. 12 Q. After that, did you return back to the classroom with him? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. All right. And when you got back to the classroom, did you 15 have any conversation about the doors on an airplane? 16 A. We got back to the classroom, and I think probably I put up 17 on the screen -- as a matter of fact, I know I put up on the 18 screen a mode control panel, and I was mentioning to Zac that this 19 is the only thing that's going to be meaningful to you in regards 20 to your training here, because you're never going to fly an 21 airliner for a carrier, and so you really don't care about the 22 systems, but to do what you want to do, you're going to have to 23 understand this mode control panel, so I put the mode control 24 panel up on the screen. 25 Q. What did he tell you that he wanted to do? 755 1 A. I asked him that. I said: What is your goal on this? What 2 would you like to do? 3 He said: I would like to fly a 747 from Heathrow to 4 Kennedy across the North Atlantic. 5 Q. Did you tell him you could do that? 6 A. I said you could do that in the simulator. You'll be able to 7 do that. 8 Q. Was that indeed true that you could have taught him to do 9 that with the mode control panel? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Is it fair to say that once somebody learns that computer, 12 they're good to go in terms of flying that plane? 13 A. They could do it. If they went from the simulator right to 14 an airplane and used the knowledge that they got from whatever 15 simulator rides that he had paid for, he could probably have a 16 good working knowledge. As a week or a month passed, he would 17 have less and less the more further he got away from it. 18 The answer to your question is yes. If you know how to 19 work the mode control panel, you know how to fly a 747-400. 20 Q. You thought you could teach him how to work that mode control 21 panel. Is that right? 22 A. I was not going to be his simulator instructor, but I know 23 that fellow, and yes, you can teach that, and he would get it. 24 Q. Okay. And that's what you told him; is that right? 25 A. I did. 756 1 Q. Okay. Now, I interrupted you. You were telling a story 2 about leading to the doors. Can you tell us about the doors? 3 A. We were in there and we had gone over maybe the mode control 4 panel for a while, and it might be now around 3:30 or somewhere 5 around there, and probably had discussed that for a half-hour, and 6 I said: Well, Zac, this is what's going to happen. I said: 7 You're going to be on a flight, and the pilots are going to get a 8 bad meal, and they're going to be incapacitated, and the flight 9 attendant is going to come through the airplane, and say does 10 anybody know how to fly a 747? And you can raise your hand. 11 And he said: I would rather take a parachute and jump 12 out the door. 13 Q. Okay. And what was your response to that? 14 A. I said: Well, you can't get the doors open in flight. 15 They're plugged doors, and if the airplane is pressurized, it's 16 impossible to open them. And then I said: As a matter of fact, 17 there was a hajj charter in the Middle East -- 18 Q. What's a hajj charter? 19 A. It's -- it's during Ramadan, I guess pilgrims go to Mecca, 20 and they call it the hajj. And a lot of carriers around the 21 world, it's a big business thing to carry the pilgrims to Mecca, 22 and they call those hajj charters. 23 Q. Go ahead. I'm sorry, I interrupted you while you were 24 telling your story. 25 A. I said: There was a hajj charter, there was a Lockheed 1011, 757 1 and they were on a runway and somebody caught the airplane on 2 fire, the cabin on fire, caught on fire, and the flight engineer 3 did not depressurize the airplane, and they all burned to death. 4 Even though they were on the ground, they all burned to death. So 5 I said you can't even get out of a -- open the door on the ground 6 if it's pressurized. 7 And I said: Hajj, Ramadan, I said, what is that? I 8 said: Are you Muslim? 9 He said: I am nothing. 10 Q. You changed your tone a little bit. Did he also change his 11 tone? 12 A. Yeah. It was kind of like -- it was significantly different 13 to normal conversation so that I caught it, and I said: Well, I 14 thought, I'm not going to bring that up anymore. And I said: 15 Well, I'm nothing, either, and went on. 16 Q. Okay. Did that -- 17 A. But -- okay. 18 Q. Go on. No, tell us the "but." That's what we want to hear. 19 A. Man, right then I wanted to get out of that classroom 20 building, because I don't know -- you have to get an idea 21 sometime, and I don't know whether the fact that he said: I am 22 nothing, or I started -- made the connection, Muslim, we don't 23 know anything about it, but I wanted to get out of that classroom 24 and call Alan McHale and say: Should we be doing this? 25 Q. Okay. 758 1 A. Do we know what we're doing here? 2 And that's what we did. 3 Q. You were concerned about his legitimacy; is that right? 4 A. That's when it hit me, that wait a minute, should we be doing 5 this? 6 Q. Okay. So did you conclude then your session with 7 Mr. Moussaoui? 8 A. I did. I said: Hey, let's call it a day and take the rest 9 of the day off, and I'll meet you tomorrow. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. And I went back to my motel. 12 Q. Okay. Now, did you -- you said that you were concerned about 13 what it is that you-all were doing. Did you try to contact Alan 14 McHale, the No. 2 guy there? 15 A. As soon as I got back to my motel, I called over to the 16 customer service desk and tried to be -- tried to get ahold of 17 Alan, and he was in a meeting and wasn't available, but I did get 18 ahold of one of the schedulers, Liz; I can't think of her last 19 name. 20 Q. Okay. And did you leave a message? 21 A. I did. I said: "Liz, tell Alan this: Tell Alan that I said 22 should we be doing this? We don't know anything about this guy, 23 and we're teaching somebody how to throw the switches on a 747, 24 and maybe we shouldn't be doing this. And anyway, that's my 25 message. 759 1 And then she said: Okay. I'll give it to him. 2 And I hung up. 3 Q. Now, had you planned with Mr. Moussaoui to see him again the 4 next morning, the 14th, at 10:00 in the morning? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. So because you were meeting Mr. Moussaoui at 10:00, did you 7 make arrangements to go see Mr. McHale himself in person before 8 that? 9 A. Yeah. I went over there early. 10 Q. Okay. About what time was it that you saw Mr. McHale? 11 A. I think about 9:00. 12 Q. And do you want to tell us what happened when you went over 13 there? 14 A. I walked up to the customer service desk, and Alan, you could 15 see his office behind and off to the right, and I saw him in 16 there, I said: Hey, Alan, did you get my message? 17 And he said -- I said: Should we be doing this? Do we 18 know what we're doing here? 19 And he said: He paid the money. We don't care. 20 Q. Okay. And did you just take that answer, or did you push a 21 little bit? 22 A. I said: We'll care when there's a hijacking and he knows how 23 to throw all the switches and put them in the right position and 24 all the lawsuits starts coming in when they figure out we taught 25 him how to do this." And I said: Then we'll care. 760 1 Q. So were you continuing to be aggressive with the supervisor 2 there about this? 3 A. That was the end of -- he was going to a meeting over at the 4 classroom site, a supervisors' meeting. 5 Q. All right. Now, did you ultimately head over towards that 6 supervisors' meeting and come into contact with a fellow by the 7 name of Jerry Liddell (phonetic)? 8 A. I did. 9 Q. And who's Jerry Liddell? 10 A. Jerry Liddell is for -- I'm not sure what his actual title 11 was, but he would be like the comptroller, who would send out the 12 bills -- 13 Q. He's the money guy? 14 A. Receive the money, pay the money, give the change. He was 15 the money guy. 16 Q. All right. Did you talk to the money guy about 17 Mr. Moussaoui? 18 A. I went into the supervisors' meeting first. They were all in 19 there, and I said: Hey, you guys, I think we should call the FBI 20 and get a background check. I said: If there's nothing wrong 21 with him, I said, he'll never even know he's been checked, but, I 22 said, if there is, then at least we've covered our six. 23 So then I walked out of the supervisors' meeting, and I 24 saw Jerry walking along over by a couple of the classrooms, and I 25 went over to him and I said: Jerry, how did he pay for his 761 1 training? 2 And he said: Cash. 3 I said: Like what? Like a check or a credit card? 4 And he said: $100 bills. 5 Q. And what did that mean to you? 6 A. I'm shaking my head. Now I'm -- now I'm upset, and this is 7 not right. And so I went back to the supervisor meeting and: 8 Hey, you guys, you know how he paid for this training? I said: 9 With hundred dollar bills. If he tried to get a ticket over at 10 the airport like this, they'd have him -- they'd be questioning 11 him. So I said: I think we should call the FBI. 12 Q. All right. Now, while this is going on, while you're 13 pressing upon this to the supervisors, does Mr. Moussaoui then 14 show up? 15 A. He came along, I would say, I walked -- Alan said to me: 16 Well, you call Miami and ask them. 17 I said: Okay. 18 Q. What's Miami? 19 A. The home office. 20 Q. Okay. Pan Am has offices all around the country; is that 21 right? 22 A. The only ones I know are Miami and Minnesota. 23 Q. All right. I'll call that around the country then. Just 24 those two spots? 25 A. Yeah. 762 1 Q. So you wanted to call the headquarters? 2 A. I said: "Okay. I'll call. 3 He said: No, no, we'll call. 4 Q. To get guidance about what to do? 5 A. They are the higher-ups, so not guidance, but at least tell 6 them what we're doing. 7 Q. Okay. Now, let's go back into -- did you finish that 8 conversation with Mr. McHale or not? 9 A. Yes. When he said that, I left the instructor meeting, and I 10 went back in one more time as they were busting up and I knew I 11 wasn't interrupting anything, and I said, you know, I'm standing 12 here and telling you I think we should do this, or something like 13 that. And then Moussaoui came in the classroom building. 14 Q. And what did you do with Mr. Moussaoui on the 14th then? 15 A. We went back to the classroom building, and I put on the 16 screen the mode control panel, and we talked about the mode 17 control panel. I did not have the interactive software that went 18 with it. So talked about the mode control panel. It's so simple 19 that there's not a lot of time that you could spend on that, and I 20 said: Well, let's go to lunch. 21 Q. Okay. 22 (Laughter.) 23 Q. You said it's so simple, so simple in terms of the operating? 24 A. Yes. It really has a friendly logic. 25 Q. Okay. And so once you go for lunch No. 2, how long did you 763 1 go this time? 2 A. Man, I was going to stay there as long as I could stay, 3 because we -- and we were getting along. 4 Q. Was he personable? 5 A. Very. 6 Q. Okay. He talked to you the whole time? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. Did he attack you in any fashion or anything like 9 that? 10 A. Not even. 11 Q. You said he was -- other than the other issues -- 12 A. A pretty genial guy. 13 Q. Okay. So you go to lunch. What happens at lunch? 14 A. We're hanging out with the guys again and having our lunch, 15 and there's lots of people around, and it's -- there's an energy 16 there, and it's kind of fun hanging out there, and we were 17 probably there a couple hours. 18 Q. Could you tell the jurors what a LOFT is? 19 A. A LOFT is, the letters are an acronym for line -- line 20 orientated flight training, line operational flight training. 21 Q. Okay. And a LOFT, what is it? 22 A. It's a -- it's an airline trip. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. You simulate it in a simulator, and it's a simulation of a 25 normal airplane trip. 764 1 Q. And do you do that with your students? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And do you -- is that kind of near the end of their training, 4 right before they're done? 5 A. That is the end of their training. That's after their check 6 ride and before they leave. That's the last thing they do. 7 They've already passed their check ride. They do the LOFT, and 8 then they, the FAA gives them their ticket, and it's a temporary, 9 but, I mean, then they're done. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. That's the last thing. 12 Q. Did you have a LOFT training set for later that day? 13 A. I did. 14 Q. And was that with a student by the name of Salim Esiktas? 15 A. It was. 16 MR. NOVAK: May I spell that for the record? Your 17 Honor, it's S-a-l-i-m, last name E-s-i-k-t-a-s. 18 BY MR. NOVAK: 19 Q. And when was it that you were supposed to have that LOFT trip 20 with Mr. Esiktas? 21 A. Six -- there are four hours, and 6:00 his was scheduled for. 22 Q. Okay. And he was going to be the pilot; is that right? 23 A. Yes, he was going to be the pilot, and they were going to 24 have a full crew, which in the case of the 400 is just one other 25 guy, who was going to sit in the right seat and support his LOFT. 765 1 Q. By the way, let's talk about the crew there, just for one 2 second, to digress. A full crew on a normal 747-400 includes how 3 many people? 4 A. If the flight is a short flight, it's two people. 5 Q. The captain and the copilot? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And, and is there a difference in terms of the number of crew 8 that you needed on a 747-400 versus the old 727, the older one? 9 A. Well, the 727 and a 747, what we'll call the classic is a 10 three-man crew: a captain, copilot, and flight engineer. 11 Q. Is it you need the less person because the benefits of the 12 automation, the computers there basically do everything? 13 A. That's right. 14 Q. Okay. So -- I'm sorry, so who was going to be the copilot on 15 that LOFT trip with Mr. Esiktas? 16 A. An Atlas Air Cargo captain from their Stansted, England 17 operation who was -- had passed his check ride or was in training. 18 His last name is -- Graham was his name. I can't remember whether 19 it was his first or last. 20 Q. We'll stick with Mr. Graham. 21 So you had scheduled that night this LOFT flight. Was 22 it in simulator No. 7, the one I showed you the photo of earlier? 23 A. It was, yes. 24 Q. That simulator No. 7, by the way, was the same simulator that 25 Mr. Moussaoui was to be trained on; is that right? 766 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. And Mr. Esiktas was to pilot this plane in a simulated 3 flight from where to where? 4 A. The LOFT was an airplane trip from San Francisco to Los 5 Angeles for the first two hours, and we -- the first two hours is 6 a normal flight with no emergencies and no abnormalities. 7 Q. Okay. What's the second part of the flight? Do you kind of 8 mix them up a little bit? 9 A. The second two hours, they take off from someplace to go to 10 another place. In this case, they were going to take off from Los 11 Angeles International and fly to Honolulu, and that's the second 12 two hours. 13 Q. Okay. And do you program in some emergencies for them to see 14 how they react, just to get them ready? 15 A. Yes. The second half, you put in some emergencies to test 16 their judgment and to see how they fly the airplane and deal with 17 the emergencies en route. 18 Q. Now, did you have any discussions about this LOFT trip that 19 you had scheduled later that evening with Mr. Moussaoui while you 20 were having one of your extended lunches? 21 A. Not at lunch, but when we went back to the classroom building 22 over on the other side, we weren't -- we weren't getting anywhere 23 with a ground-school-type information, and so I suggested to Zac, 24 I said: You know what I have tonight? I have a LOFT, which is a 25 four-hour trip, and if we get permission from the students and -- 767 1 for you to be in the simulator with them, because that's their 2 training period, they have to approve it, and you sit in the back 3 and you don't ask any questions and you don't say anything, maybe 4 they would -- you could sit in on that LOFT and just observe it. 5 I said: You'll get more out of that than you would out of 6 anything we could teach here at ground school. 7 Q. And what did Mr. Moussaoui -- what was his reaction to that? 8 A. He wanted to do that. 9 Q. All right. So did you set that up? Did you talk to 10 Mr. Esiktas and the other student? 11 A. Not until we got there. I said, I said: That happens on 12 Thursday at 6:00. I said: You come over at 5:00, and we'll ask 13 Salim, and if he approves it, why, you can sit in on it. But 14 usually I brief the two students -- the student for an hour, and 15 so we were going to be there at 5:00. And I told Zac: Show up at 16 five, and we'll see if we can pull this off. 17 Q. You said Thursday. Did you mean Tuesday, that same day, 18 Tuesday, August the 14th? 19 A. Oh, I told him on Tuesday that we could do this, but the LOFT 20 was on -- oh, I'm sorry, you're right, it was on Tuesday night. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. Yes, that's right. It was on Tuesday night, and we were in 23 ground school, and we stopped the ground school, and I said: 24 Let's not do this anymore. Let's just show up this afternoon, and 25 you can be a part of the LOFT. 768 1 Q. Okay. And everybody agreed, and he showed up later that 2 evening then on Tuesday the 14th? 3 A. He came before 5:00. It was light outside. I walked outside 4 to greet him, and he drove up about 4:45. 5 Q. You said he drove up. What kind of car did he drive up in? 6 A. It was a four-door Subaru. 7 Q. Okay. What color? 8 A. Metallic. 9 Q. All right. And was he alone, or was he with somebody else? 10 A. Somebody drove him. I never saw him other than sitting in 11 the driver's seat. He was of slight build, dark complected, and 12 had black hair. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. From the back. 15 Q. Did Mr. Moussaoui ever introduce you to the person who was 16 driving him in that Subaru? 17 A. No. 18 Q. All right. And Mr. Moussaoui got out of the passenger side, 19 I gather; is that right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. All right. And did you happen to notice what kind of -- 22 which state the license plate was from? 23 A. When I walked out, since I'm already suspicious and I'm 24 trying to do whatever I can to try to at least remember something 25 that might help if we were to take this any further with the FBI, 769 1 I tried to memorize the license plate. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. And I noticed that it was green and white, and I couldn't 4 remember the letters when I talked with the FBI, but I saw that 5 the last three numbers were 676, which were the same numbers of my 6 number of my hotel where I stayed, so I remembered that. 7 Q. Okay. And so going back then to the LOFT trip that night, 8 Mr. Moussaoui showed up, and did you do the LOFT trip? 9 A. We did. 10 Q. If we could show on the screen again Exhibit MN-119, please? 11 Now, we're back in simulator No. 7; is that right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And could you tell us, actually, you could point this with 14 your finger, where would the captain, Mr. Esiktas, sit? If you'd 15 put that on the screen and make a little circle? 16 A. That's the captain's chair. 17 Q. I'm sorry? 18 A. That's the captain's chair. 19 Q. Okay. Could you indicate where Mr. Graham, the copilot, sat? 20 A. (Indicating.) 21 Q. And could you indicate where it is that you sat? 22 A. (Indicating.) 23 Q. And could you tell us where it was that Mr. Moussaoui sat? 24 A. There is a chair, the chair on the right here, there's 25 another chair behind that, and he sat in that. 770 1 Q. Okay. And did he -- let me just clear this. 2 Did he -- did you give him any instructions, 3 Mr. Moussaoui, about what it is that he was to do during this 4 four-hour LOFT trip? 5 A. He couldn't say anything, and he couldn't ask any questions. 6 He had to be quiet, because it was Salim's training, and he was 7 not to interrupt it. 8 Q. And did he abide by your instructions? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. All right. And could you tell us, did you do the LOFT trip 11 as you would any other trip? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. Nothing unusual happened during that time period? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Okay. After the four-hour, the LOFT trip was over, what 16 happened after that? 17 A. We just -- you don't debrief LOFTs because -- and you can't 18 fail them. They're just -- even if you crash the airplane. So we 19 all just left the simulator, and we were all going down to our 20 transportation and go home. 21 Q. Okay. Was that the last time that you had contact with 22 Mr. Moussaoui? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And by the way, during that -- those two days that you had 25 contact with him, including those very long lunches that you had 771 1 with him, anything that led you to believe he was crazy or 2 anything like that? 3 A. No. 4 Q. And at any time did he tell you he was a terrorist? 5 A. No, no. 6 Q. All right. Now, by the way, at any point did you ever ask 7 him why it was that he was not studying in Europe? 8 A. I did ask him that, and he said the flight schools in Europe 9 will not let you do these things. 10 Q. Okay. Do you know if that's true or not? 11 A. No, I do not know. 12 Q. All right. Now, the next day, Mr. Moussaoui was scheduled 13 for his day off, right, Wednesday the 15th? 14 A. That's right. 15 Q. Now, in the interim, did, did -- were you -- your efforts to 16 get somebody from Pan Am to call the FBI, were those fruitful? 17 Did somebody from your shop call the FBI? 18 A. Somebody did. 19 Q. And was that Tim Nelson? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And as a result of Tim Nelson's call to the FBI, were you 22 called by a special agent from the FBI? 23 A. I was called by Alan McHale first, and he said, "The FBI 24 wants to talk to you. Are you available?" 25 And I said, "Yes, I am. I'll be at my motel here." 772 1 Q. All right. And first of all -- and who was the agent that 2 you spoke to? 3 A. Harry Samit. 4 Q. And did he first speak to you on the telephone on the 15th? 5 A. Yes, because we had to set up where we were going to meet. 6 Q. Okay. And then did you meet him on the 16th? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. And where did you meet him? 9 A. I was staying at the Spring Hill Suites Motel, and we met in 10 a commons room that was right opposite the front desk. 11 Q. And did you describe to him all the things that you've told 12 us about that you could recall about Mr. Moussaoui at that time? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And did you tell him that you had those worries about him, 15 that maybe he was going to do something with an airplane that he 16 shouldn't have been? 17 A. I probably -- I conveyed that he should -- we should have a 18 background check here before we teach somebody how to fly a 19 commercial airliner. 20 MR. NOVAK: I have no further questions of the witness, 21 Your Honor. 22 THE COURT: All right. Cross examination? 23 MR. TROCCOLI: Thank you, Your Honor. 24 CROSS EXAMINATION 25 BY MR. TROCCOLI: 773 1 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Prevost. 2 A. Hello. 3 Q. Good morning. We're not yet in the afternoon period. 4 I understand that Mr. Moussaoui was training on a 5 747-400; is that correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Not a 757 or a 767? 8 A. No. 9 Q. And you testified earlier, I believe, that other simulations 10 are available at that facility, including those aircraft? 11 A. Not a 767, but a 757. 12 Q. 757? 13 What is a 747-400 designed to fly? What kind of route? 14 A. Intercontinental. It's an airplane that's designed to fly 15 across the oceans. 16 Q. Such as from Heathrow to New York and back? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Harder to fly, obviously, than a Cessna? 19 A. Way. 20 Q. Way harder. How many hours did it take you to learn how to 21 fly a jet of that size? 22 A. Well, I came through the normal pipeline of flying all the 23 different airplanes that -- of the vintage: 727, 707, DC-10, so I 24 just progressed along the large airplanes, and I probably had 25 10,000 hours by the time I got there. 774 1 Q. You progressed meaning you started -- 2 A. Started at the lowest pay scale seat and then moved along 3 as -- it's a seniority system, and as a seat becomes available, 4 you bid for it, and then you are awarded, and then you move along 5 in seniority. 6 Q. And then after you become qualified enough to fly a, a jet, a 7 commercial airliner, how many hours did it take you to actually 8 learn how to operate the cockpit? 9 A. You do not come out of training without knowing how to run 10 that airplane. I mean, that's -- you don't need any additional 11 hours to go to the airplane. 12 Q. But what I'm saying is that when you actually start learning 13 how to use -- in your simulator training -- you took simulator 14 training? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And how many hours did you put in to learn how to, how to 17 operate the cockpit? 18 A. A simulator syllabus is four 4-hour sessions in a non-motion 19 device, and then six or seven sessions, including the LOFT, of a 20 motion device. 21 Q. And you were, you were already a pilot at that point? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Now, in the first day of Mr. Moussaoui's training, which was, 24 I think you said, August 13 -- is that correct? 25 A. It was -- yes. If that's a Monday, yes. 775 1 Q. Monday? And you say you sat through some classroom 2 instruction with Mr. Moussaoui? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Is that correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Now, you had a PowerPoint presentation which turned out to 7 be, as you, I think, described it earlier, fairly useless for 8 Mr. Moussaoui? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. And the next day, he was scheduled for some more classroom 11 instruction in the morning? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Again, was that also a PowerPoint presentation? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You mentioned earlier, I believe, that it was not 16 interactive, meaning he could not interact directly with the 17 PowerPoint. 18 A. That's right. 19 Q. And that was -- 20 A. Nor could I. 21 Q. That essentially consisted of you instructing him orally? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. To the extent you were able? 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. It sounds like you really weren't able to make much headway 776 1 with him. 2 A. I would agree with that. 3 Q. And it was, it was at that point that you suggested, well, 4 maybe we'll try the simulator, since he's a bit of a knucklehead 5 and can't figure out what's going on in the classroom? 6 A. No, not, not that he was a knucklehead. That it would be a 7 meaningful thing for him to do for what he was paying for. 8 Q. And he sat in the simulator, as you described it, it's in the 9 back, as an observer? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Never operated the simulator himself? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Never pushed any buttons in the simulator? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Never sat behind the controls? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Is it safe to say, Mr. Prevost, that it was fairly obvious to 18 you at least at the end of the first day that this was a very 19 suspicious guy? 20 A. No, I was never suspicious of Zac until I -- even when I 21 thought we should do a background check, I was not suspicious of 22 him. I thought that there should be a protocol in place that if 23 they're going to have somebody like this come through, that, that 24 they should have some kind of a mechanism to do a background 25 check. I was not suspicious of Zac. 777 1 Q. Well, you were concerned that his training wasn't for a 2 legitimate purpose, correct? 3 A. Maybe when I heard about the $100 bills. 4 Q. All right. And you were so concerned that you -- let me see 5 if I've got this right -- on the first day, you called your 6 manager, or a manager? 7 A. At the end of the first day. 8 Q. At the end of the first day. That's -- you were concerned 9 enough at that point to go to the manager and say: I've got a 10 concern? 11 A. Not with Zac. Just with the fact that we had not -- that 12 we're teaching somebody that we don't know anything about to fly 13 an airplane. 14 Q. Were you teaching anybody else there at that time? 15 A. Good question. I can't remember whether I had -- no, I don't 16 think I had another student ongoing at that time. 17 Q. All right. Now, this was -- the person you tried to speak to 18 was Mr. McHale; is that correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. But instead, you spoke to Liz Stone? 21 A. I don't -- if that's her last name, yes. I spoke to Liz the 22 scheduler. 23 Q. And what you said to the scheduler is: Bring this up to 24 Alan -- Alan being Alan McHale? 25 A. Yes. 778 1 Q. This is a guy we don't know anything about and we're teaching 2 him to essentially operate a flight deck on an airplane? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. That's what you told her? 5 A. That's right. 6 Q. All right. And you told her that we should investigate this 7 guy before we allow him to do this training and make sure he's 8 okay. 9 A. Yes, a background check. 10 Q. A background check. Why, why was a background check 11 something that you wanted to have done on Mr. Moussaoui? 12 A. I just felt that there should be a protocol that somebody 13 coming through that was not an airline pilot, that we should -- 14 what would be a word? -- vet him or at least make sure that 15 everything was okay. 16 Q. Had you ever asked that that be done for anyone else before? 17 A. No, but you know what? I had worked for Northwest Airlines 18 and was now involved with the Northwest Airlines contract 19 training, and everything was always professional. This was the 20 first nonprofessional event that I had ever participated in. 21 Q. And that -- and Mr. Moussaoui's in particular caused you some 22 concern because of that. He came to you, as I understand it, 23 without any pilot's license, correct? 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. And he hadn't solo'd, correct? 779 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. He had -- how many hours did you say he had in the air? 3 A. I was told 55. 4 Q. 55. And the lowest number of hours for a student you had 5 previously instructed was how many? 6 A. 600 multi-engine. 7 Q. 600. And what was the next lowest student? 8 A. Maybe a thousand or more. 9 Q. A thousand. And this is all in the first day? 10 A. I'm -- I don't -- 11 Q. Well, I mean, you're learning this information, but you're 12 concerned enough to approach -- 13 A. No, I already knew that he only had 55 hours. Alan McHale 14 had told me. 15 Q. Okay. And the next morning, now we're talking Tuesday, 16 correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You went back and spoke to Alan. At that point, he was 19 available? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you said words to the effect, we need to check into this 22 guy, correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And Alan's response was: Well, you know, he's paid up, so 25 we've got to let him proceed? 780 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And your -- you were so concerned, you said: Well, you'll 3 care when there's a hijacking and they'll wonder where he started 4 to work all those switches and the lawsuits start rolling in. 5 A. That's what I said. 6 Q. That's what you said. 7 So you knew at that point that there was a potential 8 problem with Mr. Moussaoui? 9 A. I did not know that. When -- the day before, when I asked: 10 Are you Muslim? I thought, Wait a minute. Middle East, this 11 fellow is Muslim, and maybe we should be checking this out. 12 Q. Checking this out. In other words -- well, at that point, 13 not just checking it out, but you recommended -- did you recommend 14 to Mr. McHale at that point that they should call the FBI? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And then having received no response from him, or no 17 acceptable response in your mind, you then went into the 18 supervisors' meeting, I think you said -- correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And said: Hey, you guys should call the FBI? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. I mean, even you knew at that point that law enforcement 23 should be contacted. 24 A. Somebody should go through a background. I felt that we 25 should do a -- before we go any further on this, we should do a 781 1 background check to make sure that he is okay. 2 Q. You don't have any training in law enforcement, do you? 3 A. Zero. 4 Q. So you don't have any experience in actually picking out 5 who's worthy of being called to the FBI about and who is not? 6 A. That's right. 7 Q. It's just a layperson making this, this judgment, correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And even you could figure out that at this point, Tuesday 10 morning, that the FBI should be called? 11 A. I thought they should be called, yes. 12 Q. And not only that, but you -- after the second time -- you 13 went into the supervisors' meeting one time, correct, and you 14 left? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And then you learned after that, I think you testified, that 17 he had paid in cash? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Is that from Mr. McHale? You bumped into him again? 20 A. Jerry Liddell. 21 Q. Jerry Liddell. 22 And that he had paid in $100 bills? 23 A. He had -- when I asked: Well, how did he pay? Check or 24 credit card, he said: $100 bills. 25 Q. And then you went back into the supervisors' meeting again? 782 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Because now what? Your hair's on fire? 3 A. That was an indicator, I thought. 4 Q. And what did you tell the supervisors? 5 A. You guys, do you know that he paid for his training with $100 6 bills? I -- that's not normal. 7 Q. No, no response from them, correct? 8 A. Alan McHale said: Well, you call Miami. 9 And I said: Okay, I'll call them. Give me the number. 10 Q. Now, is this the third time that you recommended -- 11 A. Second. 12 Q. Let me just put it this way. 13 A. Sorry. 14 Q. Is this the third time that you had recommended to somebody 15 in management that the FBI be contacted? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And after you left the supervisors' meeting the second time, 18 you then -- there was a period of time in which you waited for 19 Mr. Moussaoui to arrive? 20 A. Yes. I -- yes. 21 Q. And when he arrived, you were again so concerned about him 22 that you actually tried to memorize his license plate? 23 A. That was later. I thought about this as I was waiting for 24 the students to arrive at the NATCO site later on that afternoon, 25 and I just walked out -- I can't tell you why I thought that. I 783 1 just did it. 2 Q. You just did it? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. It was your instinct to do that? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And did you, did you, in fact, sit in your car and wait for 7 him to arrive? 8 A. No. 9 Q. And just so I'm clear as to what it is that you knew about 10 Mr. Moussaoui's ability, I think you testified that you were aware 11 that he only had about 50 hours of flight training in light 12 aircraft? 13 A. That's what I was told. 14 Q. Aircraft that bore no -- or bear no similarity to a 747-400? 15 A. A Cessna. 16 Q. No pilot's license of any kind? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. Paid in cash? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And you testified earlier that this was not typical, because 21 typically, at least the individuals who you instruct are people 22 that come to you with a substantial amount of flying time and an 23 employer who pays the freight? 24 A. Sometimes individuals pay themselves, but yes, that's right. 25 Normally the airline that they're working for pays their training. 784 1 Q. Pays their training. 2 And you testified also that you had a conversation with 3 Mr. Moussaoui that touched upon religious matters? 4 A. No. I just asked him if he was, conversationally, hajj, 5 Ramadan, what is that? Are you Muslim? 6 Q. Right. You asked him if he was a Muslim. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And he responded -- can you tell us again how he responded? 9 A. It was a raised-voice-type response: I am nothing. 10 Forceful, and enough that I left that subject and thought in my 11 own mind, Don't go there anymore. 12 Q. Did that reaction when you raised the subject of his, his 13 being or not being a Muslim, was that reaction of his of concern 14 to you? 15 A. The reaction, it was different than what normally somebody 16 would say conversationally, so there was an effect that he was 17 trying to force upon me. 18 Q. And this was another indication at least to you that, for 19 instance, the FBI should be notified? 20 A. It triggered a thought. That's when I first thought we 21 should do -- that's when I got the idea that we should do a 22 background check. We don't -- should we be doing this? What are 23 we doing here? 24 Q. That's when it first started? 25 A. That's right. 785 1 Q. And it just got progressively worse as time wore on? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And you've told all this -- you told all this to the FBI, as 4 I understand your testimony, in August, when they came to visit 5 you? 6 A. Yes, on Wednesday. 7 Q. Specifically to Agent Harry Samit? 8 A. Yes. There was another agent there, and also an INS guy. 9 Q. And you also told the FBI at that time that Mr. Moussaoui was 10 interested in flying a simulated flight from Heathrow to New York 11 City? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And that he was overly interested in the mode control panel? 14 A. He didn't know what a mode control panel was. 15 Q. Until you told him. 16 A. Even when I told him, I doubt that he really knew what it 17 was. 18 Q. So you don't think he could actually operate the thing? 19 A. Not from that ground school he couldn't. 20 Q. I mean, in fact, as you testified earlier, the interactive 21 PowerPoint classroom instruction that you had was not -- was not 22 interactive? 23 A. That's right. 24 Q. And he never actually touched any of the buttons in the 25 simulator itself? 786 1 A. That's right. 2 Q. So it's not your testimony here today that anybody can 3 basically learn the mode control panel and fly a big jumbo jet? 4 A. No, that's -- not from a ground school. 5 Q. Certainly not this man (indicating)? 6 A. Yeah, he could. 7 Q. You're not testifying that he could fly a 747-400 based on 8 the instruction you gave him? 9 A. If he'd have taken -- I think he had paid for four simulator 10 sessions, and at the end of those sessions, he would have known 11 how to work a mode control panel. 12 Q. I'm not asking you, Mr. Prevost, what could have happened or 13 what would have happened -- 14 MR. NOVAK: Judge, I object. He's arguing with the 15 witness now. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 BY MR. TROCCOLI: 18 Q. Based on the instruction that you gave him, it's not your 19 testimony here today that he could operate the mode control panel? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. That's a yes? 22 A. That's a yes. 23 MR. TROCCOLI: The Court's indulgence? 24 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 25 BY MR. TROCCOLI: 787 1 Q. Do you know, do you know if the FAA has ever done anything to 2 harden cockpit doors to make sure that individuals who operate or 3 can operate a mode control panel don't just come into the cockpit? 4 A. What was -- I missed the word, something door, cockpit doors. 5 Q. I take it, I take it that individuals who learn how to 6 operate a mode control panel can then, as I understand your 7 testimony, fly a large commercial airliner? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you know if the FAA did anything to make sure that if 10 somebody got such training, that they couldn't get into the 11 cockpit? 12 A. The cockpit doors had locks on them. 13 Q. Were they hardened? 14 A. Hardened? 15 Q. Hardened. 16 A. H-a-r-d-e-n-e-d? 17 Q. Correct. 18 A. No. 19 Q. Before 9/11 is my question. 20 A. I don't know what they are now. 21 Q. But prior to September 11, 2001, they were not hardened? 22 A. You had to have a key to get in. 23 Q. But they were not hardened? 24 A. Correct. 25 MR. TROCCOLI: Thank you, Your Honor. 788 1 THE COURT: All right. Any redirect? 2 MR. NOVAK: Just a couple questions. 3 THE COURT: Mr. Novak, while you're doing that, I don't 4 think formally you moved in MN-617.3, which was the -- 5 MR. NOVAK: May I move it in? 6 THE COURT: Yeah. So it's in for the record. 7 MR. NOVAK: Thank you, Judge. 8 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-617.3 was received in 9 evidence.) 10 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. NOVAK: 12 Q. Just a couple questions, Mr. Prevost. Just to follow up on 13 Mr. Troccoli -- tried to get you to -- asked you that last 14 question where you said yes about him, referring to Mr. Moussaoui, 15 not being able to operate the mode control panel based upon your 16 instruction. Could -- were you referring simply to the ground 17 school? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. If Mr. Moussaoui had fulfilled that schedule, the one that 20 the judge just referred to, 617 -- can we get that up there, 21 please? 22 If he had fulfilled that schedule that he had taken 23 where he had actually, instead of just taking the ground school, 24 as Mr. Troccoli asked you, if he had finished it and taken those, 25 what, one, two, three, four, simulator sessions, is there any 789 1 doubt in your mind that he could have operated a mode control 2 panel? 3 MR. TROCCOLI: Objection, Your Honor. That calls for 4 speculation. 5 THE COURT: Not from this witness. Overruled. 6 THE WITNESS: He would have known how to run the mode 7 control panel. 8 BY MR. NOVAK 9 Q. So had Mr. Moussaoui finished his training on August 20, he 10 could have flown a 747-400; is that right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. All right. And let me ask you this: Mr. Troccoli referred 13 to his client, I think at one point, as a knucklehead. Was there 14 anything about Mr. Moussaoui's intelligence that led you to 15 believe that he was a knucklehead? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Were the problems intelligence, or were they experience? 18 A. Experience. 19 MR. NOVAK: All right. Thank you, I have no further 20 questions. 21 THE COURT: Any recross? 22 MR. TROCCOLI: Yes, briefly, Your Honor. 23 RECROSS EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. TROCCOLI: 25 Q. Mr. Prevost, Mr. Moussaoui never finished his training; isn't 790 1 that so? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. He was arrested on the second day, correct? 4 A. Not on the second day. After the second day, he was 5 arrested, and before his simulator training. 6 Q. He never actually operated a simulator; isn't that so? 7 A. Yes, that's correct. 8 Q. At least with you? 9 A. That's correct. 10 MR. TROCCOLI: Thank you. 11 MR. NOVAK: Nothing else for the witness. 12 THE COURT: All right. Sir, then you're excused as a 13 witness. Thank you for your testimony. Do not discuss your 14 testimony or what you heard in court with any witness who has not 15 yet testified. 16 (Witness excused.) 17 THE COURT: Call your next witness. 18 MR. NOVAK: Back to stipulations, Judge, just a couple 19 of them. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 MR. NOVAK: I'd like to publish Exhibit -- I'm sorry, 22 stipulation BBB from stipulation 129, and it's the ST-1 segment. 23 And the stipulation is on August 11 of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui and 24 Mr. Al-Attas arrived in Eagan, Minnesota, and they stayed at the 25 Residence Inn in Eagan through August 16 of 2001. 791 1 And we have records from the Residence Inn that I think 2 are certified, Judge, which I would offer, which are MN-511 and 3 611. 4 THE COURT: No objection, correct? 5 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Those are both in. 7 (Government's Exhibits Nos. MN-511 and MN-611 were 8 received in evidence.) 9 MR. NOVAK: Stipulation CCC from that same ST-1, No. 10 129, I'd like to publish. On August 12 of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui 11 purchased the use of computer time at Kinko's in Eagan, Minnesota. 12 And if I could publish stipulation DDD, with the 13 attendant exhibits of 512.1, 512.2, and their certification of 14 512.3 of the MN exhibits -- which I would offer those three 15 exhibits. 16 THE COURT: All right. MN -- 17 MR. NOVAK: 512.1. 18 THE COURT: 12.1 and then .2 and .3, they're all in. 19 MR. NOVAK: Thank you, Judge. 20 (Government's Exhibit Nos. MN-512.1, MN-512.2, and 21 MN-512.3 were received in evidence.) 22 MR. NOVAK: On August 12 of 2001, Mr. Moussaoui bought 23 shin guards and fighting gloves from the Oshman's SuperSports in 24 Bloomington, Minnesota. 25 Stipulation FFF and the attendant exhibit of MN-514 and 792 1 its certification, MN-514.1, I offer both of those. 2 THE COURT: All right, MN-514 and 514.1? 3 MR. NOVAK: Yes, Your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Both in. 5 (Government's Exhibits Nos. MN-514 and MN-514.1 were 6 received in evidence.) 7 MR. NOVAK: That stipulation reads: On August 16 of 8 2001, Mr. Moussaoui purchased a Microsoft PowerPoint 2002 program 9 from CompUSA in Bloomington, Minnesota. 10 And then, Judge, finally, we would just offer business 11 records which are for a post office box that, they have been 12 marked MN-513, and it's a certificate of a business record of 13 MN-513.1. I would offer those as well. 14 THE COURT: There's no objection, correct? 15 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor. 16 THE COURT: 513 and 513.1 are in. 17 MR. NOVAK: Yes, Your Honor, thank you. 18 (Government's Exhibits Nos. MN-513 and MN-513.1 were 19 received in evidence.) 20 MR. NOVAK: We would call Agent Samit, please. 21 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and Gentlemen, if you're 22 hearing a slight roar, I think we're losing our air conditioning, 23 and it may get warm in here. Fortunately, it's the end of the 24 trial week, and we'll hopefully have it repaired over the weekend. 25 But I just don't want you to be surprised if it starts to warm up. 793 1 And that's what the noise is if any of you are hearing it. 2 HARRY SAMIT, GOVERNMENT'S WITNESS, AFFIRMED 3 MR. NOVAK: May I proceed, Your Honor? 4 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. NOVAK 7 Q. Sir, could you introduce yourself to the good jurors by 8 telling them your first and your last name, spelling both? 9 A. Harry Samit, H-a-r-r-y S-a-m-i-t. 10 Q. Mr. Samit, could you tell the folks by whom you're employed? 11 A. The Federal Bureau of Investigation. 12 Q. In what capacity? 13 A. As a special agent. 14 Q. And how long have you been a special agent with the FBI? 15 A. Since January of 1999. 16 Q. Is that when you left the FBI academy? 17 A. No. I left the FBI academy in May of 1999. 18 Q. And when you left the academy in May of 1999, where did you 19 get assigned to? 20 A. The Minneapolis field office. 21 Q. And have you been assigned there since then? 22 A. I have. 23 Q. All right. So you remain a special agent up there in 24 Minneapolis; is that right? 25 A. That's correct. 794 1 Q. And could you tell the good folks on what -- what kind of 2 assignment do you have as a special agent with the FBI up there in 3 Minneapolis? 4 A. I'm an investigator assigned to the Joint Terrorism Task 5 Force. 6 Q. Tell the folks what the Joint Terrorism Task Force is. 7 A. The Joint Terrorism Task Force is an organization of law 8 enforcement agents and officers who investigate international 9 terrorism under the framework set up by the FBI. It's got 10 personnel from a variety of different law enforcement agencies. 11 Q. Do you want to list some of the different agencies that work 12 with you on that Joint Terrorism Task Force? 13 A. Immigration and Naturalization Service, United States Secret 14 Service, local police officers, sheriff's deputies, a variety of 15 different investigators. 16 Q. And beyond your assignment on the, on the -- JTTF is the 17 acronym for the Joint Terrorism Task Force; is that right? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Beyond your assignment to the JTTF, can you tell us what else 20 you do there as a special agent up there in Minnesota? 21 A. At the time in 1999, I was assigned as a pilot with the FBI 22 as well. 23 Q. We're going to talk about your pilot training in a second, 24 but your squad that you're assigned to is squad what? 25 A. Squad 5. 795 1 Q. And squad 5 up there includes the investigation of what types 2 of crime? 3 A. In, in 2001, it included the investigation of international 4 terrorism, domestic terrorism, and foreign counterintelligence. 5 Q. And would it be fair to say that since your inception into 6 the FBI, your initial assignment up there in Minneapolis, you've 7 basically been working full-time on terrorism investigations? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Now, could you tell us, have you received any type of 10 specialized training in the world of terrorism? 11 A. I have. During the FBI academy, the new agent training, 12 there was a terrorism integrated case scenario which I 13 participated in along with my class. I also attended a basic 14 international terrorism in-service after graduating the FBI 15 academy, and then later a double agent and recruitment in-service 16 as well. 17 Q. Okay. Now, in addition to that, you're a pilot as well; is 18 that right? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. And have you received any type of pilot training within the 21 FBI? 22 A. I have. I attended the FBI-sponsored Cessna Pilots 23 Association introduction to the Cessna 182 aircraft. 24 Q. Those are little planes; is that right? 25 A. That's correct. 796 1 Q. All right. 2 A. As well as their air crew coordination seminar. 3 Q. All right. Do you want to tell the folks what you did before 4 you joined the FBI? 5 A. I was an officer in the United States Navy. 6 Q. And how long were you employed by the United States Navy? 7 A. From May of 1990 until joining the FBI in January of 1999. 8 Q. So for about nine years; is that right? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And when you left the Navy after those nine years, what was 11 your rank? 12 A. Lieutenant commander. 13 Q. Okay. So you were commissioned in what area? 14 A. In intelligence. 15 Q. All right. And what exactly -- what was your duties there in 16 the Navy as an intelligence officer? 17 A. During my time in intelligence, I spent the entire time 18 assigned to aviation commands. I was first assigned to a 19 sea-going squadron, flying aircraft off of an aircraft carrier. I 20 did an exchange tour with the Canadian Air Force at their 21 headquarters in Ottawa, and then I was an instructor at the Navy 22 Fighter Weapons School, a top gun. 23 Q. And what is it that you were supposed to do? What was your 24 job? 25 A. As an intelligence officer with aviation units, it was my job 797 1 primarily to evaluate threat air forces and air defense forces, to 2 look at their training, their capabilities, specifically with 3 regard to pilot training capabilities. We'd evaluate -- I would 4 evaluate the number of hours, the types of training they did, and 5 determine what kind of pilots they would be. 6 Q. Okay. Now, you talked to us also about the fact that you 7 went to the top gun school; is that right? 8 A. That's correct. I was there as a student, and then I stayed 9 as an instructor. 10 Q. Okay. And you have training also as a navigator; is that 11 right? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. And for those of us who have watched the "Top Gun" movie, 14 were you sitting in the first seat or the second seat? 15 A. The back seat. 16 Q. All right. And how much training did you get as a navigator? 17 A. Approximately six months. 18 Q. All right. And going back to your training in terms of what 19 you were supposed to analyze, how much time did you spend 20 analyzing the pilot trainings for other countries? 21 A. When I was doing threat evaluations and looking at threat air 22 forces, probably 40 to 50 percent would be evaluating the pilot 23 capabilities. 24 Q. Over what span of time? 25 A. The entire time, from 1990 -- 1991 to 1999. 798 1 Q. So during those nine years, you were -- I gather you were 2 evaluating hostile countries to see what kind of pilot training 3 that they were giving to, to members of their Air Force; is that 4 right? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. All right. Now -- so you're pretty familiar with flight 7 training; is that correct? 8 A. Flight standards, absolutely, sir. 9 Q. All right. Now, you yourself, separate from the Navy, became 10 a pilot; is that right? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. And when was it approximately that you became a pilot? 13 A. 1997. 14 Q. And could you tell us, what's your license certification 15 level? 16 A. I am a private pilot, single engine fixed wing land airplane, 17 and I have a complex and high-performance endorsement. 18 Q. Okay. And the private pilot license, is that known as a PPL? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. And could you tell the folks how it is that you went about 21 getting your PPL? 22 A. I had flown in the Navy and decided that I enjoyed that. My 23 tour in Canada with the Canadian Air Force was a ground job. I 24 didn't get to fly, so I went and decided I wanted a private 25 pilot's license so I could do that. I went to a flying school. I 799 1 asked, inquired about price and availability. They were 2 welcoming. They said: Come on in, and we'll teach you to fly. 3 Q. And what did you have to do before they started teaching you? 4 Did you have to take any type of physical? 5 A. I did. I had to take a medical to prove that I was medically 6 fit to be able to fly. 7 Q. Does that happen with anybody? Is that required by the FAA 8 that before you can get your PPL, that you have to take some basic 9 level of a physical of some sort? 10 A. Yes, sir, that's correct. 11 Q. And what's the purpose behind that? What do they examine you 12 for? 13 A. To make sure that vision, cardio, respiratory system, hearing 14 are all in accordance with my ability, with anyone's ability to 15 operate an aircraft safely. 16 Q. Okay. And did you do that? 17 A. I did. 18 Q. Okay. And did you get your -- you were medically passed; is 19 that right? 20 A. I was. 21 Q. And then did you get your training there in Ottawa at that 22 flight school that you attended? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. All right. And could you tell us, when you start your flight 25 school, what's the first thing that you do? 800 1 A. In my case, I went to ground school. 2 Q. And can you tell the folks what flight school -- ground 3 school consists of? 4 A. It's academic training. Aircraft systems, navigation, rules 5 and regulations governing how you are allowed to fly an airplane. 6 Very similar to the types of aviation training that began my naval 7 aviation training. 8 Q. Okay. Thereafter, did you start taking flight training where 9 you actually flew in the plane? 10 A. I did. 11 Q. By the way, what kind of planes were you flying in at that 12 time? The little Cessnas? 13 A. Cessna 150s. 14 Q. No kind of jets or anything like that, is that right? 15 A. No. 16 Q. All right. Can you tell us, do you just jump in the Cessna 17 and start taking it up for a ride, or has somebody got to jump in 18 there with you? 19 A. You're in there with a qualified instructor. 20 Q. All right. And how many hours did you spend with a qualified 21 instructor in dual-flight situations, where you're not flying 22 solo? 23 A. Dual flight, where the instructor is with me in the airplane, 24 it took me about ten hours of dual flight before I was ready to 25 solo. 801 1 Q. Okay. And did you indeed solo? 2 A. I did. 3 Q. All right. And then ultimately, how many hours did it take 4 you until you were certified as a -- with your PPL license? 5 A. Just under 50. 6 Q. All right. And you got -- you were certified; is that right? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And approximately how many pilot hours do you have as you sit 9 here today as a private pilot? 10 A. Approximately 250. 11 Q. And approximately how many hours do you have sitting here 12 today as a navigator? 13 A. About 350. 14 Q. Now, despite those hours, I guess combined over 500 hours, 15 have you ever tried to go up to the next step of getting your 16 commercial license? 17 A. I have not. 18 Q. How many hours do you think that it normally takes before you 19 go up to that next step? 20 MR. MAC MAHON: Objection, Your Honor. He's an FBI 21 agent, not a commercial pilot. That's irrelevant. 22 MR. NOVAK: Well, no, he's a -- 23 THE COURT: He may be, but I think we've already heard a 24 great deal of this from the other witnesses, and I had assumed 25 Agent Samit was being called for other purposes. 802 1 MR. NOVAK: That's fine, Your Honor. I'll move on. 2 THE COURT: I think before you move on to a new topic, 3 this is a logical stopping point for the one-hour lunch break. 4 Agent Samit, you'll need to be back here at 1:30. We'll recess 5 court until that time. 6 (Recess from 12:28 p.m., until 1:30 p.m.) 7 8 CERTIFICATE OF THE REPORTERS 9 We certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript of the 10 record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter. 11 12 13 Anneliese J. Thomson 14 15 16 Karen Brynteson 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 803 1 I N D E X 2 DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 3 WITNESSES ON BEHALF OF THE GOVERNMENT: 4 Shohaib Nazir Kassam 674 689 699 700 5 Clarence E. Prevost 716 772 788 789 6 Harry Samit 793 7 8 EXHIBITS 9 MARKED RECEIVED 10 GOVERNMENT'S: 11 No. FO05521.11 705 12 FO05521.12 705 FO05521.14 705 13 FO05521.30 705 FO05521.29 705 14 FO05521.66 705 15 FO05521.70 705 MN-151 706 16 MN-617.1 707 MN-154 708 17 FO-5521.54 708 18 FO-5521.55 708 ST-2 710 19 FO-5521.57 710 FO-5521.58 710 20 FO-5521.59 711 21 FO-5521.60 711 FO-5521.61 712 22 MN-617.2 712 FO-5521.75 714 23 FO-5521.76 714 24 FO-5521.78 715 MN-150 through MN-156 716 25 MN-515 716 804 1 EXHIBITS 2 MARKED RECEIVED 3 GOVERNMENT'S: 4 No. MN-111 721 MN-112 721 5 MN-113 721 MN-105 724 6 MN-101 726 7 MN-102 727 MN-103 727 8 MN-144 732 MN-128 732 9 GX-2 740 10 MN-108 741 MN-508.1 744 11 MN-508.2 744 MN-617.3 788 12 MN-511 791 13 MN-611 791 MN-512.1 791 14 MN-512.2 791 MN-512.3 791 15 MN-514 792 16 MN-514.1 792 MN-513 792 17 MN-513.1 792 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25