26 July 2002
Source: Digital transcript purchased from Exemplaris.com for $12.00.

Other case documents: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-zm-cd.htm

 1                      UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
 2                          ALEXANDRIA DIVISION
 3   UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,     .       Criminal No. 01-455-A
 4        vs.                      .       Alexandria, Virginia
                                   .       July 15, 2002               
 5   ZACARIAS MOUSSAOUI,           .       4:30 p.m.
     a/k/a Shaqil, a/k/a           .
 6   Abu Khalid al Sahrawi,        .
 7                  Defendant.     .      
 8   .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
10                      UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
11   APPEARANCES:  (by telephone)
                                   United States Attorney's Office
13                                 2100 Jamieson Avenue
                                   Alexandria, VA 22314
20                                 U.S. District Court, Fifth Floor
                                   401 Courthouse Square
21                                 Alexandria, VA 22314
                               (Pages 1 - 12)
 1   APPEARANCES: (Cont'd.)
                                   Federal Public Defender
 3                                 Office of the Federal Public
 4                                 1650 King Street
                                   Alexandria, VA 22314
 5                                   and
                                   EDWARD B. MAC MAHON, ESQ.
 6                                 P.O. Box 903
                                   107 East Washington Street
 7                                 Middleburg, VA 20118
 8                                 ALAN H. YAMAMOTO, ESQ.
                                   108 N. Alfred Street, First Floor
 9                                 Alexandria, VA 22314-3032
 1                         P R O C E E D I N G S
 2             THE COURT:  Hello.  Hello?
 3             MR. SPENCER:  Good afternoon, Your Honor.
 4             THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Spencer, we're on speaker 
 5   phone.  Can you hear me? 
 6             MR. SPENCER:  I can hear you, Your Honor.
 7             THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Moussaoui, are you there? 
 8             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes.  I can hardly hear you.
 9             THE COURT:  All right.  We'll try to speak up.  I have 
10   this as loud as I can make it. 
11             All right.  And, Mr. Dunham and Mr. Yamamoto and 
12   Mr. MacMahon, are you all there? 
13             MR. DUNHAM:  Yes, Your Honor. 
14             MR. YAMAMOTO:  Yes, Your Honor.
15             THE COURT:  All right.  You all have to speak up.  We 
16   can barely hear you.
17             THE DEFENDANT:  I want immediately to oppose the 
18   communication with Dunham and MacMahon and all --
19             THE COURT:  Wait, Mr. Moussaoui, we cannot hear you.  
20   Can you get closer to the telephone?
21             THE DEFENDANT:  I'm saying that I want to reject the 
22   presence of MacMahon and Zerkin.  I didn't ask for them to be 
23   present.
24             THE COURT:  Well, your objection is overruled.  They're 
25   going to be present for this.  This is a pretrial matter.  You've 
 1   noted your objection for the record. 
 2             The only reason I'm having this by telephone is you 
 3   seem to be under the impression that you're going before the 
 4   grand jury tomorrow.  Mr. --
 5             THE DEFENDANT:  I received a letter.  I'm not under any 
 6   impression.  I receive a letter from the prosecution telling me 
 7   that tomorrow there will be a hearing of the grand jury, so I 
 8   don't know why you are saying an impression.  I have the document 
 9   with me.
10             THE COURT:  Mr. Spencer, is Mr. Moussaoui going to be 
11   called as a witness before the grand jury tomorrow? 
12             MR. SPENCER:  Not tomorrow, Your Honor, due to his 
13   insistence on having other persons before the grand jury with him 
14   or, or having the --
15             THE DEFENDANT:  Not at all.
16             MR. SPENCER:  -- testimony disseminated --
17             THE DEFENDANT:  I sent you a letter, a specific letter 
18   accepting your condition and saying that I will testify tomorrow, 
19   and it was sent to you on Friday, and I accepted that Mr. Bro 
20   Freeman will not be there.  So I don't know why you are saying 
21   this.
22             MR. SPENCER:  Well, the reason I'm saying it, I got a 
23   letter today to Paul McNulty saying that you would testify before 
24   the grand jury, but it didn't address the question of these 
25   demands you're making about televising the grand jury or having 
 1   marshals present.
 2             THE DEFENDANT:  No, no, I'm not making any demand, 
 3   okay?  I make a motion.  The motion was rejected.  That's the end 
 4   of the matter. 
 5             I don't know why you are saying this, because it's 
 6   very simple.  I sent you a letter accepting that I will appear 
 7   like that, and I have accepted that the motion have been 
 8   rejected.  That's the way the system work.
 9             MR. SPENCER:  Well, at this point, Your Honor, because 
10   of the, the defendant's insistence on having marshals present and 
11   he's still filing motions to that effect, that we are not 
12   prepared to do it tomorrow.  If he continues to want to appear 
13   before the grand jury, we can arrange that at a later date, but 
14   at this rate -- 
15             THE DEFENDANT:  I want to appear tomorrow.
16             MR. SPENCER:  -- we cannot do it tomorrow.
17             THE COURT:  Mr. Moussaoui, if you talk when the 
18   prosecutor or anybody else is talking, we cannot hear you. 
19             THE DEFENDANT:  So it's very simple.  I want to appear 
20   in front of the grand jury tomorrow.  It was -- I responded to 
21   their letter in due time in no uncertain terms accepting, and 
22   they are say that they will convene tomorrow.  It should be 
23   convened tomorrow.  It's another manipulation of the whole 
24   system.
25             MR. SPENCER:  Well, Your Honor, we're just not prepared 
 1   because of the late notice on this, and with all respect to 
 2   Mr. Moussaoui, it was not clear.  The matters that he is, he is 
 3   demanding in his pleadings were not addressed at all in the 
 4   letter, and so we cannot at this point because of logistics work 
 5   it for tomorrow. 
 6             As I said, if he wants to testify before the grand 
 7   jury, we can arrange it at some other time, but it will not be 
 8   able to occur tomorrow. 
 9             THE COURT:  All right.  Well, what I need to know, 
10   Mr. Spencer, because the marshals need to know this --
11             THE DEFENDANT:  It's up to you, I'm not the judge, and 
12   the Judge has rejected my motion, okay?  So I send a letter to 
13   you accepting your conditions, and now you are just delaying 
14   because you know that it is something that I'm looking forward to 
15   help my case, and I want this grand jury to happen tomorrow, 
16   because you have written a letter to me saying that the booking 
17   have been made and you will be convene and I had to respond 
18   before Friday evening. 
19             That's what I did.  I have the receipt to testify of 
20   this.  So you have absolutely no excuse.
21             THE COURT:  Mr. Moussaoui, defendants and witnesses do 
22   not control the grand jury.  The government is not required to 
23   put you before the grand jury tomorrow, and if they want you to 
24   testify at some other point, if that's legally possible -- 
25   because as the government knows, once a grand jury has indicted a 
 1   person, it's not permitted to continue investigating the case. 
 2             The grand jury is going to have to look at this case 
 3   again because of a change in the law, and you know that from the 
 4   motion that was filed.  That's the only reason why this grand 
 5   jury can still legally be addressing this particular indictment. 
 6             Mr. Spencer, what I need to know from you, though, 
 7   because the marshals need this for scheduling purposes, is there 
 8   going to be a need for a re-arraignment hearing this Thursday? 
 9             MR. SPENCER:  Well, I have told Mr. Dunham, Your Honor, 
10   and I think I told Ms. Falk that we intend to present a 
11   superseding indictment tomorrow.  I suspect that we will need to 
12   re-arraign on that.
13             THE COURT:  All right.
14             MR. SPENCER:  And Thursday is acceptable to the 
15   government.
16             THE COURT:  All right.  Then it looks as though, 
17   Mr. Moussaoui, you will be back in court Thursday afternoon at 
18   1:00 for a, yet another re-arraignment. 
19             And I want to make sure, Mr. Spencer, that 
20   Mr. Moussaoui, if the grand jury should pass out a superseding 
21   indictment, that he gets a copy of it immediately so he has time 
22   to look at it before he comes to court.  All right? 
23             MR. SPENCER:  Yes, Your Honor.
24             THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Moussaoui, while I have you 
25   on the phone, I am concerned about something. 
 1             THE DEFENDANT:  Think about what you're doing.
 2             THE COURT:  Mr. Moussaoui, I need to know are you 
 3   receiving all of my orders? 
 4             THE DEFENDANT:  No, I'm not receiving all the paper 
 5   that I should be receiving.  For example, I didn't receive the -- 
 6   you don't send me any of the motion filed by, by this bunch of 
 7   lawyer that you've appointed to me, and I know that they are 
 8   interfering with my defense, because they are file the motions 
 9   about the death penalty.  That's clearly a matter for the pro se 
10   defendant. 
11             And also, I have to say that I've been trying to send 
12   for more than four weeks now letter to the European Court of 
13   Justice and the European -- and the European Parliament, and the 
14   FBI and the, the U.S. government is refusing to send my letter 
15   for four weeks.
16             THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Moussaoui, I have addressed 
17   that problem --
18             THE DEFENDANT:  -- intervene --
19             THE COURT:  Mr. Moussaoui, stop, please.  We can't hear 
20   you.  I have addressed that issue in an order that you should 
21   receive tomorrow morning.  That's been taken care of. 
22             THE DEFENDANT:  But --
23             THE COURT:  But wait a minute.  Listen to me.  I am 
24   concerned when you tell me you didn't get the supplemental motion 
25   from the standby defense counsel on the motion to dismiss the 
 1   death -- the --
 2             THE DEFENDANT:  It was never sent to me. 
 3             MR. MAC MAHON:  Your Honor, he -- Your Honor, 
 4   Mr. Moussaoui does not receive mail.
 5             THE DEFENDANT:  I don't have to receive from you 
 6   anything.  I'm talking from the Court.  I have nothing to do with 
 7   these people.
 8             THE COURT:  All right.  Well, Mr. Moussaoui, I need to 
 9   tell you this:  We have been bending over backwards to send you 
10   copies of your own pleadings back so you know they've been filed.  
11   I send you copies of every order the Court issues.  I am not 
12   going to be sending you copies of what the standby counsel file.  
13   You need to open those envelopes and --
14             THE DEFENDANT:  I'm not going to open.  That's end of 
15   the matter.  Thank you.
16             THE COURT:  Then you proceed at your own risk. 
17             You may know I've also ordered the defense, standby 
18   defense counsel to help you find the names of electronic 
19   surveillance experts and finger- -- handwriting experts.  They're 
20   going to give you some names and the background, and you can 
21   choose the ones you want. 
22             THE DEFENDANT:  You can keep it.  You can use it for 
23   your own services. 
24             Anyway, the government is refusing to, to produce the 
25   fan, the electric fan that I've talked about.  They are not 
 1   deceiving by saying that the (unintelligible) they have doesn't 
 2   belong to me.  And I brought it in the apartment, and it was in 
 3   the apartment when I left.  Mukaram and Al Attas are witness of 
 4   this.  I filed a motion today addressing this point that this 
 5   electric fan should be produced.
 6             THE COURT:  The government has indicated they don't 
 7   have the fan.  Is that correct, Mr. Spencer? 
 8             MR. SPENCER:  That's right, Your Honor.  It was not 
 9   seized.  We don't know where it was.
10             THE COURT:  If it has not been seized, they can't 
11   produce it.  That ends the issue. 
12             THE DEFENDANT:  It was in the apartment.  I ask that Al 
13   Attas and Mukaram should testify that it was in the apartment 
14   when the FBI came to, to investigate.
15             THE COURT:  All right, that's another issue.  That's a 
16   request for a trial subpoena.  I have no problem addressing that 
17   in a separate matter.  But in terms of -- the Court can never 
18   require the government to produce something it doesn't have. 
19             THE DEFENDANT:  You are just endorsing their, their 
20   positions.  You have completely sided with the government.  You 
21   are engaged with the government and your standby lawyer in the 
22   highest level of deception.
23             THE COURT:  All right.
24             THE DEFENDANT:  And I want the motion filed by Bro 
25   Freeman to be endorsed at my name, because I want you to recuse 
 1   yourself as soon as possible, because you are not able to 
 2   administrate this court of justice.
 3             THE COURT:  All right.  Well, Mr. Moussaoui, that 
 4   request is denied. 
 5             I'm going to terminate this now.  We'll see you 
 6   Thursday unless the grand jury does not return the indictment. 
 7             And, counsel, do you wish to have this transcript 
 8   public or not? 
 9             MR. DUNHAM:  Your Honor, I would like a transcript of 
10   it.
11             THE COURT:  All right. 
12             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, I want, I want this transcript, 
13   and I want an appearance in front of the grand jury.
14             THE COURT:  Well, that's been denied unless you and the 
15   government can work it out.
16             All right, I'm signing off now.  That ends this 
17   conference.
18             MR. SPENCER:  Thank you, Your Honor.
19             THE COURT:  Good-bye.
20                            (Which were all the proceedings
21                             had at this time.)
 1                      CERTIFICATE OF THE REPORTER
 2        I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript of the 
 3   record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter. 
                                        Anneliese J. Thomson