26 July 2002
Source: Digital transcript purchased from Exemplaris.com for $12.00.
Other case documents: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-zm-cd.htm
0001 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA 2 ALEXANDRIA DIVISION 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, . Criminal No. 01-455-A . 4 vs. . Alexandria, Virginia . July 15, 2002 5 ZACARIAS MOUSSAOUI, . 4:30 p.m. a/k/a Shaqil, a/k/a . 6 Abu Khalid al Sahrawi, . . 7 Defendant. . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . 9 TRANSCRIPT OF TELEPHONE CONFERENCE BEFORE THE HONORABLE LEONIE M. BRINKEMA 10 UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE 11 APPEARANCES: (by telephone) 12 FOR THE GOVERNMENT: ROBERT A. SPENCER, AUSA United States Attorney's Office 13 2100 Jamieson Avenue Alexandria, VA 22314 14 15 16 (APPEARANCES CONT'D. ON FOLLOWING PAGE) 17 18 19 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER: ANNELIESE J. THOMSON, RDR, CRR 20 U.S. District Court, Fifth Floor 401 Courthouse Square 21 Alexandria, VA 22314 (703)299-8595 22 23 (Pages 1 - 12) 24 25 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION OF STENOGRAPHIC NOTES 0002 1 APPEARANCES: (Cont'd.) 2 FOR THE DEFENDANT: FRANK W. DUNHAM, JR. Federal Public Defender 3 Office of the Federal Public Defender 4 1650 King Street Alexandria, VA 22314 5 and EDWARD B. MAC MAHON, ESQ. 6 P.O. Box 903 107 East Washington Street 7 Middleburg, VA 20118 and 8 ALAN H. YAMAMOTO, ESQ. 108 N. Alfred Street, First Floor 9 Alexandria, VA 22314-3032 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0003 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE COURT: Hello. Hello? 3 MR. SPENCER: Good afternoon, Your Honor. 4 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Spencer, we're on speaker 5 phone. Can you hear me? 6 MR. SPENCER: I can hear you, Your Honor. 7 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Moussaoui, are you there? 8 THE DEFENDANT: Yes. I can hardly hear you. 9 THE COURT: All right. We'll try to speak up. I have 10 this as loud as I can make it. 11 All right. And, Mr. Dunham and Mr. Yamamoto and 12 Mr. MacMahon, are you all there? 13 MR. DUNHAM: Yes, Your Honor. 14 MR. YAMAMOTO: Yes, Your Honor. 15 THE COURT: All right. You all have to speak up. We 16 can barely hear you. 17 THE DEFENDANT: I want immediately to oppose the 18 communication with Dunham and MacMahon and all -- 19 THE COURT: Wait, Mr. Moussaoui, we cannot hear you. 20 Can you get closer to the telephone? 21 THE DEFENDANT: I'm saying that I want to reject the 22 presence of MacMahon and Zerkin. I didn't ask for them to be 23 present. 24 THE COURT: Well, your objection is overruled. They're 25 going to be present for this. This is a pretrial matter. You've 0004 1 noted your objection for the record. 2 The only reason I'm having this by telephone is you 3 seem to be under the impression that you're going before the 4 grand jury tomorrow. Mr. -- 5 THE DEFENDANT: I received a letter. I'm not under any 6 impression. I receive a letter from the prosecution telling me 7 that tomorrow there will be a hearing of the grand jury, so I 8 don't know why you are saying an impression. I have the document 9 with me. 10 THE COURT: Mr. Spencer, is Mr. Moussaoui going to be 11 called as a witness before the grand jury tomorrow? 12 MR. SPENCER: Not tomorrow, Your Honor, due to his 13 insistence on having other persons before the grand jury with him 14 or, or having the -- 15 THE DEFENDANT: Not at all. 16 MR. SPENCER: -- testimony disseminated -- 17 THE DEFENDANT: I sent you a letter, a specific letter 18 accepting your condition and saying that I will testify tomorrow, 19 and it was sent to you on Friday, and I accepted that Mr. Bro 20 Freeman will not be there. So I don't know why you are saying 21 this. 22 MR. SPENCER: Well, the reason I'm saying it, I got a 23 letter today to Paul McNulty saying that you would testify before 24 the grand jury, but it didn't address the question of these 25 demands you're making about televising the grand jury or having 0005 1 marshals present. 2 THE DEFENDANT: No, no, I'm not making any demand, 3 okay? I make a motion. The motion was rejected. That's the end 4 of the matter. 5 I don't know why you are saying this, because it's 6 very simple. I sent you a letter accepting that I will appear 7 like that, and I have accepted that the motion have been 8 rejected. That's the way the system work. 9 MR. SPENCER: Well, at this point, Your Honor, because 10 of the, the defendant's insistence on having marshals present and 11 he's still filing motions to that effect, that we are not 12 prepared to do it tomorrow. If he continues to want to appear 13 before the grand jury, we can arrange that at a later date, but 14 at this rate -- 15 THE DEFENDANT: I want to appear tomorrow. 16 MR. SPENCER: -- we cannot do it tomorrow. 17 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, if you talk when the 18 prosecutor or anybody else is talking, we cannot hear you. 19 THE DEFENDANT: So it's very simple. I want to appear 20 in front of the grand jury tomorrow. It was -- I responded to 21 their letter in due time in no uncertain terms accepting, and 22 they are say that they will convene tomorrow. It should be 23 convened tomorrow. It's another manipulation of the whole 24 system. 25 MR. SPENCER: Well, Your Honor, we're just not prepared 0006 1 because of the late notice on this, and with all respect to 2 Mr. Moussaoui, it was not clear. The matters that he is, he is 3 demanding in his pleadings were not addressed at all in the 4 letter, and so we cannot at this point because of logistics work 5 it for tomorrow. 6 As I said, if he wants to testify before the grand 7 jury, we can arrange it at some other time, but it will not be 8 able to occur tomorrow. 9 THE COURT: All right. Well, what I need to know, 10 Mr. Spencer, because the marshals need to know this -- 11 THE DEFENDANT: It's up to you, I'm not the judge, and 12 the Judge has rejected my motion, okay? So I send a letter to 13 you accepting your conditions, and now you are just delaying 14 because you know that it is something that I'm looking forward to 15 help my case, and I want this grand jury to happen tomorrow, 16 because you have written a letter to me saying that the booking 17 have been made and you will be convene and I had to respond 18 before Friday evening. 19 That's what I did. I have the receipt to testify of 20 this. So you have absolutely no excuse. 21 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, defendants and witnesses do 22 not control the grand jury. The government is not required to 23 put you before the grand jury tomorrow, and if they want you to 24 testify at some other point, if that's legally possible -- 25 because as the government knows, once a grand jury has indicted a 0007 1 person, it's not permitted to continue investigating the case. 2 The grand jury is going to have to look at this case 3 again because of a change in the law, and you know that from the 4 motion that was filed. That's the only reason why this grand 5 jury can still legally be addressing this particular indictment. 6 Mr. Spencer, what I need to know from you, though, 7 because the marshals need this for scheduling purposes, is there 8 going to be a need for a re-arraignment hearing this Thursday? 9 MR. SPENCER: Well, I have told Mr. Dunham, Your Honor, 10 and I think I told Ms. Falk that we intend to present a 11 superseding indictment tomorrow. I suspect that we will need to 12 re-arraign on that. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 MR. SPENCER: And Thursday is acceptable to the 15 government. 16 THE COURT: All right. Then it looks as though, 17 Mr. Moussaoui, you will be back in court Thursday afternoon at 18 1:00 for a, yet another re-arraignment. 19 And I want to make sure, Mr. Spencer, that 20 Mr. Moussaoui, if the grand jury should pass out a superseding 21 indictment, that he gets a copy of it immediately so he has time 22 to look at it before he comes to court. All right? 23 MR. SPENCER: Yes, Your Honor. 24 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Moussaoui, while I have you 25 on the phone, I am concerned about something. 0008 1 THE DEFENDANT: Think about what you're doing. 2 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, I need to know are you 3 receiving all of my orders? 4 THE DEFENDANT: No, I'm not receiving all the paper 5 that I should be receiving. For example, I didn't receive the -- 6 you don't send me any of the motion filed by, by this bunch of 7 lawyer that you've appointed to me, and I know that they are 8 interfering with my defense, because they are file the motions 9 about the death penalty. That's clearly a matter for the pro se 10 defendant. 11 And also, I have to say that I've been trying to send 12 for more than four weeks now letter to the European Court of 13 Justice and the European -- and the European Parliament, and the 14 FBI and the, the U.S. government is refusing to send my letter 15 for four weeks. 16 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Moussaoui, I have addressed 17 that problem -- 18 THE DEFENDANT: -- intervene -- 19 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, stop, please. We can't hear 20 you. I have addressed that issue in an order that you should 21 receive tomorrow morning. That's been taken care of. 22 THE DEFENDANT: But -- 23 THE COURT: But wait a minute. Listen to me. I am 24 concerned when you tell me you didn't get the supplemental motion 25 from the standby defense counsel on the motion to dismiss the 0009 1 death -- the -- 2 THE DEFENDANT: It was never sent to me. 3 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, he -- Your Honor, 4 Mr. Moussaoui does not receive mail. 5 THE DEFENDANT: I don't have to receive from you 6 anything. I'm talking from the Court. I have nothing to do with 7 these people. 8 THE COURT: All right. Well, Mr. Moussaoui, I need to 9 tell you this: We have been bending over backwards to send you 10 copies of your own pleadings back so you know they've been filed. 11 I send you copies of every order the Court issues. I am not 12 going to be sending you copies of what the standby counsel file. 13 You need to open those envelopes and -- 14 THE DEFENDANT: I'm not going to open. That's end of 15 the matter. Thank you. 16 THE COURT: Then you proceed at your own risk. 17 You may know I've also ordered the defense, standby 18 defense counsel to help you find the names of electronic 19 surveillance experts and finger- -- handwriting experts. They're 20 going to give you some names and the background, and you can 21 choose the ones you want. 22 THE DEFENDANT: You can keep it. You can use it for 23 your own services. 24 Anyway, the government is refusing to, to produce the 25 fan, the electric fan that I've talked about. They are not 0010 1 deceiving by saying that the (unintelligible) they have doesn't 2 belong to me. And I brought it in the apartment, and it was in 3 the apartment when I left. Mukaram and Al Attas are witness of 4 this. I filed a motion today addressing this point that this 5 electric fan should be produced. 6 THE COURT: The government has indicated they don't 7 have the fan. Is that correct, Mr. Spencer? 8 MR. SPENCER: That's right, Your Honor. It was not 9 seized. We don't know where it was. 10 THE COURT: If it has not been seized, they can't 11 produce it. That ends the issue. 12 THE DEFENDANT: It was in the apartment. I ask that Al 13 Attas and Mukaram should testify that it was in the apartment 14 when the FBI came to, to investigate. 15 THE COURT: All right, that's another issue. That's a 16 request for a trial subpoena. I have no problem addressing that 17 in a separate matter. But in terms of -- the Court can never 18 require the government to produce something it doesn't have. 19 THE DEFENDANT: You are just endorsing their, their 20 positions. You have completely sided with the government. You 21 are engaged with the government and your standby lawyer in the 22 highest level of deception. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 THE DEFENDANT: And I want the motion filed by Bro 25 Freeman to be endorsed at my name, because I want you to recuse 0011 1 yourself as soon as possible, because you are not able to 2 administrate this court of justice. 3 THE COURT: All right. Well, Mr. Moussaoui, that 4 request is denied. 5 I'm going to terminate this now. We'll see you 6 Thursday unless the grand jury does not return the indictment. 7 And, counsel, do you wish to have this transcript 8 public or not? 9 MR. DUNHAM: Your Honor, I would like a transcript of 10 it. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, I want, I want this transcript, 13 and I want an appearance in front of the grand jury. 14 THE COURT: Well, that's been denied unless you and the 15 government can work it out. 16 All right, I'm signing off now. That ends this 17 conference. 18 MR. SPENCER: Thank you, Your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Good-bye. 20 (Which were all the proceedings 21 had at this time.) 22 23 24 25 0012 1 CERTIFICATE OF THE REPORTER 2 I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript of the 3 record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter. 4 5 6 Anneliese J. Thomson 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25