26 July 2002
Source: Digital transcript purchased from Exemplaris.com for $55.00.

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 1                      UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
 2                          ALEXANDRIA DIVISION
 3   UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,     .       Criminal No. 01-455-A
 4        vs.                      .       Alexandria, Virginia
                                   .       July 25, 2002               
 5   ZACARIAS MOUSSAOUI,           .       1:00 p.m.
     a/k/a Shaqil, a/k/a           .
 6   Abu Khalid al Sahrawi,        .
 7                  Defendant.     .      
 8   .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
 9                       TRANSCRIPT OF PLEA HEARING
10                      UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
                                   KENNETH M. KARAS, AUSA
13                                 DAVID J. NOVAK, AUSA
                                   United States Attorney's Office
14                                 2100 Jamieson Avenue
                                   Alexandria, VA 22314
                                   KAREN BRYNTESON, RMR, CRR
22                                 U.S. District Court, Fifth Floor
                                   401 Courthouse Square
23                                 Alexandria, VA 22314
                               (Pages 1 - 56)
 1   APPEARANCES: (Cont'd.)
         STANDBY COUNSEL:          Federal Public Defender
 3                                 Office of the Federal Public
 4                                 1650 King Street
                                   Alexandria, VA 22314
 5                                   and
                                   EDWARD B. MAC MAHON, ESQ.
 6                                 P.O. Box 903
                                   107 East Washington Street
 7                                 Middleburg, VA 20118
 8                                 ALAN H. YAMAMOTO, ESQ.
                                   108 N. Alfred Street, First Floor
 9                                 Alexandria, VA 22314-3032
10                                 GERALD THOMAS ZERKIN
                                   Assistant Federal Public Defender
11                                 Office of the Public Defender
                                   One Capital Square
12                                 830 East Main Street, Suite 1100
                                   Richmond, VA 23219
13                                   and
                                   JUDY CLARKE
14                                 Assistant Federal Public Defender
                                   Federal Defenders of Eastern
15                                 Washington and Idaho
                                   10 N. Post, Suite 700
16                                 Spokane, WA 99201        
 1                         P R O C E E D I N G S
 2             THE CLERK:  Criminal Case 2001-455-A, United States of 
 3   America v. Zacarias Moussaoui.  Will counsel please note their 
 4   appearance for the record.
 5             MR. SPENCER:  Good afternoon, Your Honor.  Rob Spencer, 
 6   Ken Karas, and Dave Novak for the United States 
 7                            (Defendant present.)
 8             THE COURT:  Good afternoon. 
 9             Mr. Moussaoui, you are here representing yourself, 
10   correct?  Mr. Moussaoui? 
11             THE DEFENDANT:  Correct.
12             THE COURT:  All right.  All right, Mr. Moussaoui, I'd 
13   like you to go to the lectern.  I have a few questions I want to 
14   ask you. 
15             THE DEFENDANT:  Allow me a second. 
16             THE COURT:  All right, Mr. Moussaoui --
17             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes.
18             THE COURT:  -- have you had a chance to carefully 
19   consider the letter which I sent you on July 23, 2002? 
20             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, I have a full chance to consider 
21   this letter.
22             THE COURT:  All right.  The United States sent you a 
23   letter the same day describing its proposed proffer of the facts, 
24   and I assume you've had a chance to read that over as well.
25             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, I did. 
 1             THE COURT:  All right.  Now earlier today, you had an 
 2   opportunity to meet in the cellblock in this courthouse with a 
 3   Professor Reza from New York Law School; is that correct? 
 4             THE DEFENDANT:  We had a meeting for something like 20 
 5   minutes, yes.
 6             THE COURT:  All right.  Are you -- is anything that 
 7   you -- has anything that you discussed with Professor Reza 
 8   changed your decision about going forward today with a guilty 
 9   plea? 
10             THE DEFENDANT:  We discuss, and I will make no comment 
11   on this.
12             THE COURT:  Well, all right.  What I need to know, 
13   though, is would you like the Court to postpone this hearing so 
14   that you can have more time to consult with Professor Reza? 
15             THE DEFENDANT:  I'm fully satisfied with the time I 
16   have to consider the issue for -- of today. 
17             THE COURT:  All right.  Then if you will go back to 
18   your seat for a moment, there are some preliminary matters that 
19   we need to address before we get to this matter. 
20             I am curious, Professor Reza, are you in the courtroom? 
21             PROFESSOR REZA:  I am, Your Honor.
22             THE COURT:  May I ask you just to approach the lectern 
23   for one second? 
24             THE DEFENDANT:  I just want to say that I do not want 
25   this happening.
 1             THE COURT:  I understand that.
 2             THE DEFENDANT:  And I object to this. 
 3             THE COURT:  Professor, thank you.  Thank you for your 
 4   attendance. 
 5             PROFESSOR REZA:  Yes, Your Honor.
 6             THE COURT:  I'm not going to ask you for any 
 7   substantive comments, but I am concerned because of the multiple 
 8   pleadings by the standby counsel questioning the competence of 
 9   Mr. Moussaoui, all I want to know is were you able to engage 
10   Mr. Moussaoui in a discussion of federal criminal procedure? 
11             PROFESSOR REZA:  Your Honor, I appreciate the 
12   opportunity that the Court gave me to meet with Mr. Moussaoui.  I 
13   don't have any representations to make about the time I spent 
14   with Mr. Moussaoui today. 
15             THE COURT:  As a practicing attorney and as a professor 
16   of criminal procedure, you're fully familiar with the issues 
17   about competence of a defendant to represent himself or to, or to 
18   participate in a criminal proceeding?  
19             PROFESSOR REZA:  I'm familiar with the topic, Your 
20   Honor.
21             THE COURT:  As a person with some expertise in this 
22   area, although I realize you're not a mental health expert, do 
23   you have any personal concerns or qualms from that standpoint of 
24   Mr. Moussaoui's going forward today with a guilty plea if that is 
25   his wish? 
 1             PROFESSOR REZA:  Your Honor, respectfully, I have no 
 2   representations to make about my time with Mr. Moussaoui.
 3             THE COURT:  All right, I understand.
 4             PROFESSOR REZA:  I do, should the Court not accept his 
 5   plea of guilty today, I do have an argument I would like to make 
 6   should Mr. Moussaoui permit it, but short of that, I have no 
 7   representations about my meeting with Mr. Moussaoui today.
 8             THE COURT:  All right.  Well, I want to thank you for 
 9   traveling from New York to meet with the defendant.  At this 
10   point, you're not his standby counsel. 
11             PROFESSOR REZA:  Correct.
12             THE COURT:  I'm not sure he would accept you as standby 
13   counsel.  I asked you to speak solely to assist the Court, if you 
14   could, and I understand for various reasons you might not be able 
15   to, so thank you for your assistance. 
16             PROFESSOR REZA:  You're welcome, Your Honor.
17             THE COURT:  All right.  The preliminary matters which 
18   the Court needs to address are motions that have been filed by 
19   standby defense counsel raising again their concern that 
20   Mr. Moussaoui is not mentally competent to go forward at this 
21   time with a guilty plea if that is still his desire and also 
22   their concern that the Court -- or their recommendation that the 
23   Court hold or direct that there be a custodial, in-patient, full 
24   forensic psychiatric evaluation of Mr. Moussaoui. 
25             I have received a letter from Mr. Moussaoui's mother 
 1   urging the Court not to permit the defendant to go forward with a 
 2   guilty plea without the advice of counsel. 
 3             Now the record is clear that Mr. Moussaoui has rejected 
 4   the advice, assistance of counsel.  Even as of today, we were 
 5   trying to make him have access to competent counsel who offered 
 6   his services.  Apparently, Mr. Moussaoui has decided to still 
 7   continue without that help. 
 8             That decision, as I said earlier, although unwise, does 
 9   not necessarily convert to a finding of legal incompetence.  I 
10   have carefully considered the materials that were submitted by 
11   standby defense counsel as well as their doctor reports, but I am 
12   satisfied that Mr. Moussaoui is not presently suffering from a 
13   mental defect or disease of such a degree as to render him 
14   incompetent to represent himself or, assuming he answers the 
15   questions appropriately, to enter a knowing and voluntary plea of 
16   guilty to any one or all six of the charges. 
17             I am particularly impressed with the fact that although 
18   Mr. Moussaoui had filed numerous repetitive motions, at the 
19   hearing last week, when I advised him that he was not to file any 
20   more repetitive motions and if he did so, he might lose his pro 
21   se status, Mr. Moussaoui obviously understood the Court's 
22   admonition, because we have not received a single writing from 
23   him in a week, which is a record. 
24             But that indicates to the Court that Mr. Moussaoui is 
25   perfectly capable of understanding the Court's directions, and 
 1   when he chooses to, he can follow those directions.  That was 
 2   similar to earlier in the case, when he was refusing to meet with 
 3   Dr. Patterson, and I warned him in an order that continued 
 4   refusal would result in the Court not being able to decide his 
 5   pro se status.  He thereafter met with Dr. Patterson. 
 6             So although the defendant's pleadings are somewhat 
 7   confrontational and somewhat unusual, they do not give the Court 
 8   sufficient basis to make any kind of a finding that this man is 
 9   not competent to go forward with a guilty plea if that is his 
10   desire, and there clearly is no basis in this record at this time 
11   to continue or postpone these proceedings for a custodial, for a 
12   mental health forensic evaluation.  And therefore, having 
13   carefully considered the standby defense counsel's papers, I am 
14   rejecting that argument.  And I am prepared, if Mr. Moussaoui 
15   still wishes to enter a guilty plea, to begin that colloquy. 
16             Now, Mr. Moussaoui, go back up to the lectern, please.  
17   Now, Mr. Moussaoui, a week ago, you indicated to the Court at the 
18   end of the hearing that you wished to enter guilty plea or guilty 
19   pleas to some or all of the counts in the indictment.  Is that 
20   still your desire? 
21             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, but I would like to say a few word 
22   on this subject --
23             THE COURT:  All right. 
24             THE DEFENDANT:  -- to explain to the people around here 
25   and who may hear about this. 
 1             Yes, about a week ago, I decided, and I have after long 
 2   reflection on the subject to, to enter a plea of guilty.  Of 
 3   course, it should not be misunderstood that by pleading guilty, I 
 4   endorse the entire indictment, as the law say that a defendant 
 5   may -- might reject some of the allegation. 
 6             THE COURT:  Correct. 
 7             THE DEFENDANT:  But the law, Rule 11, stipulate that 
 8   there should be some factual basis, correct.  So there is enough 
 9   factual basis for me to plead guilty in a truthful manner and 
10   also to be able to argue about the level, level, level of my 
11   guilt, meaning to decide if I should be subject to death penalty, 
12   life in prison, or any other sentence. 
13             Even the law recognize that in the mitigating factor, 
14   you can reach a point that it can become a defense to the charge. 
15   So today I truthfully will enter on some of the charge, not all 
16   of them, a plea of guilty. 
17             But before we go further, I want to go back to the 
18   letter you sent to me, if you allow me, of course.  Briefly say 
19   you explained to me, I read, "Because most guilty pleas are 
20   negotiated between defense counsel and the prosecutor, the 
21   parties usually have agreed to set a stipulated fact which 
22   establish the essential element of the offense or offenses.  I 
23   believe that such stipulation, stipulation would assist you in 
24   thinking about your decision.  Therefore, I have asked the 
25   government to provide you, to provide you with their proposed 
 1   factual proffer by the close of business on Tuesday, July 23." 
 2             So basically, you sent me this different proposal from 
 3   the government to stipulate certain fact.  But I have to say that 
 4   if I were to agree on these fact, I will not only plead guilty, 
 5   but I will plead guilty for the death penalty directly, meaning 
 6   that there will be no need for a sentencing phase, because what 
 7   we have, what we have put in this document is to say that I agree 
 8   of everything they have said against me. 
 9             So I cannot agree on this, but I can agree that there 
10   is factual basis in the indictment, and I will go through the 
11   indictment to show where are the factual basis of my guilt.  And 
12   I think that it will be enough according to Rule 11, who say that 
13   there should be factual basis to enter a plea of guilty for this 
14   Court to accept my plea of guilt.
15             THE COURT:  All right.  Now, Mr. Moussaoui, you 
16   actually, I think, cut me off last week.  I was starting to 
17   explain something to you.  Just listen for a second, because I 
18   want to make sure you, you fully understand what you're doing.  
19             MR. MOUSSAOUI:  Yes, of course.
20             THE COURT:  You have several times in your pleadings 
21   advised the Court and you've just told me again that there are 
22   several allegations or facts in the indictment that you don't 
23   dispute. 
24             There are two ways a defendant can make that point.  
25   One way, which is the way you're talking about right now, would 
 1   be to enter a guilty plea to that actual charge.  However, the 
 2   other way, and you didn't let me explain this to you last time, 
 3   is that it is not uncommon in a criminal case or a civil case for 
 4   the parties to stipulate to the existence of certain facts, and 
 5   if both sides stipulate to a certain fact, then there is no need 
 6   for there to be a trial as to that particular fact, because it is 
 7   conceded.  The purpose of a trial is basically to find facts. 
 8             I want to make sure if you're going forward with a 
 9   guilty plea to one or some of the counts in this indictment that 
10   you understand that you might be able to achieve close to the 
11   same result by stipulating to certain facts in the indictment 
12   with which you have no dispute. 
13             Do you understand that difference? 
14             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, I understand fully this different 
15   point, but I have to say that the fact that I will enter a guilty 
16   plea will also help me to put my argument forward to the jury, 
17   because at the moment, it will be very unlikely that a jury will 
18   be able to listen to my argument if I were going through a guilt 
19   phase, because the government have decided to employ such a 
20   tactic against me to inflame -- even in the indictment is 
21   completely inflammatory speech. 
22             And to deny me any aspect to have any chance to 
23   mounting a fair defense, I have been -- I don't know which word 
24   to use, but put with some people who pretend to want to help me.  
25   And in fact, thet have all the, the mean to mount a very serious 
 1   defense on my behalf along the line I have dictated, meaning 
 2   that -- I will not elaborate at the moment.  But they are 
 3   refusing, because they have -- they want to make a showcase, 
 4   where the government will talk about Moussaoui on September 11, 
 5   Bin Laden, Bin Laden, and then at the end of the guilt phase, 
 6   there will be Moussaoui here being taken as a, as a prize, okay? 
 7             So I have no intention to go through this.  I want the 
 8   people to hear what I have to say, what are my responsibility, 
 9   what I came to the United States for, what I did in the United 
10   States, and if 12 people of America find that I have to be put to 
11   jail, to be killed for this what I did, but only for what I did, 
12   not for what they claim, okay, and only by directly addressing 
13   what I did I will be able to receive a fair -- I mean, I will not 
14   even use the word -- but something remotely fair. 
15             At the moment, if I go through the guilt phase, I have 
16   no chance, because, first of all, this Court denied me the chance 
17   to appoint my own lawyer at the first -- in the first place, 
18   okay?  Then after that, I have been through more than six months 
19   of fighting with this Court just to have the right to present 
20   myself in a meaningful manner.  It's only today, even now until 
21   today, people are questioning my ability to defend myself. 
22             So for me, it is very simple, okay?  Your system of 
23   justice belong to you.  I have to answer the question to charge 
24   against me, did or did not come to the United States to commit an 
25   act of terrorism.  That's the basic, the bottom line of this 
 1   charge.  That's why these people will decide one day either to 
 2   put me to death or not, not on if I serve food in the Kandahar 
 3   for one of the hijacker or if I receive money for somebody who is 
 4   alleged to be a Bin Laden associate.  All this is, will be not -- 
 5   less than not irrelevant but not as much as to know did 
 6   Mr. Moussaoui came to the United States to commit an act of 
 7   terrorism.  That's why I want to talk to these 12 people, these 
 8   12 American, who are my enemy, but sometime you can find honest 
 9   enemy. 
10             Here I have dishonest people.  Maybe your normal people 
11   will be more honest than this Court and this prosecution and this 
12   standby lawyer.
13             THE COURT:  All right.  
14             THE DEFENDANT:  So that's where I'm going now.
15             THE COURT:  Mr. Moussaoui, you said you -- you 
16   indicated that there are certain counts you do wish to enter 
17   guilty pleas to.  Which counts are they? 
18             THE DEFENDANT:  So I will enter a guilty plea on the 
19   four first count, Count 1, 2, 3, 4, it will be a guilty plea.
20             THE COURT:  On the first four? 
21             THE DEFENDANT:  Yeah, on first four.
22             THE COURT:  But not on the fifth and the sixth?
23             THE DEFENDANT:  Not on the -- yeah.
24             THE COURT:  All right.
25             THE DEFENDANT:  For the rest, it will be not guilty. 
 1             THE COURT:  All right.  I recognize from your previous 
 2   appearance before the Court that you have religious convictions 
 3   that do not permit you to take an oath.
 4             THE DEFENDANT:  No, I think that was misunderstood.  
 5   Even the rule, the federal rule doesn't stipulate on the wording 
 6   questioning to the oath.  I will object to take the Bible or 
 7   something like that, but I can take an oath according to -- 
 8   because if I recall, I mean, maybe a bit vaguely, but the 
 9   wording, when you take an oath, it should strike your conscience, 
10   okay? 
11             So me, I will just say in the name of Allah, the most 
12   graceful and masterful, I believe in Allah, the prophet, and his 
13   messenger, and I will tell the truth to the best of my ability.
14             THE COURT:  All right.  Let me just ask you this so I 
15   have this for our record:  You understand that all answers as 
16   well as statements that you make during what is called the Rule 
17   11 plea colloquy must be complete and truthful? 
18             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, to the best of my ability.
19             THE COURT:  All right.  And do you understand that if 
20   you knowingly and willfully lie to the Court in answering any of 
21   these questions, you could be prosecuted for perjury by the 
22   United States? 
23             THE DEFENDANT:  I understand fully.
24             THE COURT:  Would you hold on just one second, please? 
25             I should announce because the Fourth Circuit had 
 1   pending before it various motions, including an emergency motion 
 2   for the issuance of an extraordinary writ of mandamus, 
 3   prohibition, and injunction, that motion has been denied by the 
 4   Fourth Circuit by an order entered at the direction of Judge 
 5   Wilkins, at the concurrence of Judge Williams.  Judge Gregory 
 6   concurred in part and dissented in part. 
 7             And that therefore means that there's no Fourth Circuit 
 8   impediment to going forward with this proceeding at this time. 
 9             And, Mr. Moussaoui, you agree to provide truthful -- 
10   complete and truthful answers to the best of your ability and 
11   complete and truthful statements to the best of your ability to 
12   the Court during this plea colloquy; is that correct? 
13             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, I do.
14             THE COURT:  All right.  Then I find that your answers 
15   to these questions as well as your statement previously indicates 
16   that you have taken the equivalent of an affirmation or oath and 
17   that all of your questions -- all of your answers and statements 
18   will be deemed made under those parameters. 
19             I also want to advise you again, as I have in the past, 
20   that whatever you say to the Court now in either an answer to a 
21   question or in a statement can be used by the government against 
22   you at either the guilt or penalty phase of this prosecution.  Do 
23   you understand that? 
24             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, I understand this.  If you allow 
25   me just a, a small point? 
 1             THE COURT:  Yes, sir.
 2             THE DEFENDANT:  I have requested to appear in front of 
 3   the grand jury, because I want to, to say everything I know, but 
 4   the government refuse, because they know the implication if I 
 5   were to say.  And I request to take the stand and to say to the 
 6   people of America what I know about, let's say, what you call 
 7   al Qaeda, okay, and about conspiracy. 
 8             But the United States government know that they don't 
 9   want, because they have charged me with this crime, and they 
10   don't want the matter to be investigated, because as I've tried 
11   to put forward to the people of America and the world, that, in 
12   fact, the government knew about the activity of the people who 
13   were preparing September 11, and they have decided to arrest me 
14   because they knew that I was not directly involved with these 
15   people. 
16             It doesn't change the fact that -- it doesn't change 
17   the fact that I still want to talk about this, meaning that I can 
18   provide information to the grand jury relevant to ongoing 
19   conspiracy.
20             THE COURT:  All right.  Now, Mr. Moussaoui, let me stop 
21   you at this point.  I've heard -- I heard you last time.  I'm 
22   sure the prosecutors heard you last time. 
23             THE DEFENDANT:  No.
24             THE COURT:  If for no other reason, you might want to 
25   ask Professor Reza to try to broker for you a, an opportunity to 
 1   be debriefed.  This Court cannot do that for you, and I'm telling 
 2   you that that is a nuanced operation that you need a third-party 
 3   individual to broker for you. 
 4             You will have opportunities to speak, but right now I 
 5   need to determine whether or not any of these pleas are going 
 6   forward.
 7             THE DEFENDANT:  Proceed.
 8             THE COURT:  All right.  For the record, what is your 
 9   full name? 
10             THE DEFENDANT:  Zacarias Moussaoui.
11             THE COURT:  Now have you also used the name Shaqil?
12             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, I do.
13             THE COURT:  And where did you first -- when did you 
14   first start using that name, approximately? 
15             THE DEFENDANT:  I mean, I can't remember, so --
16             THE COURT:  A couple of years? 
17             THE DEFENDANT:  No, I don't -- I think that shouldn't 
18   go more than two year, one year ago, but I don't want, like, to 
19   say a date.  I mean, I have to be truthful.  I can't say exactly, 
20   but it's not like very old.  That's all I can say.
21             THE COURT:  All right.  Have you also used the name Abu 
22   Khalid al Sahrawi?
23             THE DEFENDANT:  Abu Khalid al Sahrawi, yes.  That's my 
24   what we call a sequnya.  It's a war name or it's a name that you 
25   will name your son about.  So "abu" mean father.  "Khalid" will 
 1   be the name of my son in the future, insha'Allah, God willing.
 2             THE COURT:  All right.  How old are you?
 3             THE DEFENDANT:  Twenty -- thirty-four.
 4             THE COURT:  All right.  Do you have any difficulties 
 5   speaking, reading, or understanding English? 
 6             THE DEFENDANT:  No, I don't think so.
 7             THE COURT:  All right, I don't think so, either, but I 
 8   have to ask these questions for the record.
 9             THE DEFENDANT:  I mean, I mean, the first day when I 
10   came to court, you asked if I was speaking English, so now I'm 
11   happy that you know that I do after knowing that I had a master 
12   degree in England.
13             THE COURT:  All right.
14             THE DEFENDANT:  Thank you. 
15             THE COURT:  Are you presently under the care of a 
16   doctor for any physical or mental condition? 
17             THE DEFENDANT:  No.  No.
18             THE COURT:  Are you presently taking any medication for 
19   any physical or mental condition? 
20             THE DEFENDANT:  No.
21             THE COURT:  Have you had any medication at all in the 
22   last week? 
23             THE DEFENDANT:  No.
24             THE COURT:  All right.  Are you presently under the 
25   influence of any alcohol or drugs? 
 1             THE DEFENDANT:  No, thank you. 
 2             THE COURT:  All right.  Do you understand that in order 
 3   for the Court to accept any of your guilty pleas, I need to ask 
 4   you a series of questions that comply with the requirements of 
 5   Rule 11 of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure? 
 6             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes.  I've read fully more than twice 
 7   actually the complete set of Rule 11.  I understand it.
 8             THE COURT:  And what Rule 11 requires is that the Court 
 9   first of all ask a series of questions to ensure a defendant 
10   fully understands what he is doing by pleading guilty, and that 
11   colloquy includes a complete understanding of what a defendant is 
12   giving up by pleading guilty.  Do you understand that?
13             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, I do.
14             THE COURT:  And then the Court must also determine 
15   whether or not the plea is being made in a voluntary fashion, 
16   because a plea that is being forced would not be one that would 
17   necessarily be acceptable.  Do you understand that?
18             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, I do.
19             THE COURT:  All right.  Now previously, you've given 
20   some explanations as to why you want to plead guilty, and you've 
21   indicated that you were worried that if you didn't get a chance 
22   to tell your story early in the case, you might somehow be gagged 
23   by the Court or you might be put out of the courtroom.  You've 
24   also expressed in previous proceedings a fear that you might lose 
25   your pro se status. 
 1             Are you pleading guilty today because of any of those 
 2   fears? 
 3             THE DEFENDANT:  The Court have to consider I do before 
 4   the Court --
 5             THE COURT:  I need a yes-or-no answer to the question.
 6             THE DEFENDANT:  Okay.  It's not possible for me to 
 7   answer in such a short manner, because if you take into account 
 8   the, the treatment I've been subject, it is, it is logical to 
 9   assume that you have some incidents, but if you are asking me if 
10   somebody has put a gun on my head, no, nobody has put a gun on my 
11   head. 
12             But I have to say -- I have to take this course of 
13   action in order to preserve my life.  So this is in my best 
14   interest.  So I enter this plea of guilty to protect my best 
15   interest.  That's the most truthful.
16             THE COURT:  All right.  What you're telling me is 
17   you've made a tactical decision that by pleading guilty, you 
18   would maximize your chances of avoiding the death penalty with 
19   the sentencing jury.  Is that basically what you're saying? 
20             THE DEFENDANT:  I am saying that taking account of my 
21   condition and the treatment I've receive, I make this choice in 
22   order to save my life; that's correct.
23             THE COURT:  All right.  Now do you understand that if 
24   the Court accepts your guilty plea to any count of the indictment 
25   today, as to that count, your guilt will be established, and you 
 1   cannot come back at the sentencing hearing and say, "I'm not 
 2   guilty of that offense"? 
 3             You can, of course, come back and argue the mitigating 
 4   factor of a reduced or minor role in the offense, and that's what 
 5   I understand you're trying to do.  But if you try to come in at 
 6   the penalty phase and say, "I wasn't part of that conspiracy," if 
 7   I have found you guilty of that conspiracy based on your plea, 
 8   that you can't do.  Do you understand that? 
 9             THE DEFENDANT:  I understand that Rule 11 says that in 
10   order to, to plead guilty, you have to have some factual basis.  
11   Okay? 
12             THE COURT:  It's not just some.  I have to be 
13   satisfied, not you, not the government.  The Court has to be 
14   satisfied that there's enough evidence that is not in dispute to 
15   establish your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt for that offense. 
16             If the evidence that you agree to is not sufficient to 
17   meet that burden, the Court will not accept your guilty plea and 
18   cannot under Rule 11.  So I want to make sure you understand 
19   that. 
20             THE DEFENDANT:  I understand that the, the nature of 
21   the indictment is so vague, okay, where so many other act have 
22   been alleged, okay, so then it will be easy in theory for me to 
23   plead guilty for 90 percent of the indictment, okay?  In theory, 
24   I repeat, okay? 
25             So if, if I can cover 90 percent of the indictment by 
 1   saying yes, I'm guilty of this, it will be difficult, I believe, 
 2   for the Court to deny that there's some factual basis.
 3             THE COURT:  Well, we'll get to the factual basis down 
 4   the road.  Right now I just want you to understand that's how a 
 5   guilty plea is done.  That is, Rule 11 requires a finding that 
 6   it's knowing and voluntary and that there is sufficient evidence 
 7   to support the plea to find the defendant guilty.  Do you 
 8   understand that?
 9             THE DEFENDANT:  I understand.
10             THE COURT:  All right.  Do you understand that with a 
11   guilty plea, you waive -- essentially waive all 
12   non-jurisdictional objections to the prosecution, so many of the 
13   various objections you've had to decisions the Court has made 
14   along the way, including the Court's denial of your request for a 
15   change of venue and that sort of thing, would no longer be an 
16   issue that you could raise on appeal.  Do you understand that?  
17   Because you would be deemed to have waived those types of 
18   arguments. 
19             THE DEFENDANT:  Before I say yes, I understand, I 
20   want -- you, you gave me seven different, different set of 
21   rights, okay, in your letter.
22             THE COURT:  I'm sorry? 
23             THE DEFENDANT:  You gave me seven different set of 
24   rights in your letter.
25             THE COURT:  You mean the various rights your giving up 
 1   with a guilty plea? 
 2             THE DEFENDANT:  Yeah.
 3             THE COURT:  Right. 
 4             THE DEFENDANT:  And can you tell me which one exactly I 
 5   will be giving up?  Because I have an understanding, okay, for 
 6   example, the right to counsel, okay? 
 7             THE COURT:  I'm going to go through those with you in a 
 8   minute.  That's not where we are right now.  I just want to make 
 9   sure you understand what I've just asked you.
10             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, I understand that I will be giving 
11   up different right.
12             THE COURT:  All right.  Now Count 1 of the indictment 
13   charges you with being a member of a conspiracy to commit acts of 
14   terrorism transcending national boundaries.  That count exposes 
15   you to the possibility of death -- a sentence of death if a death 
16   resulted from that conspiracy.  Do you understand that?
17             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, I do.
18             THE COURT:  In addition, you also could face 
19   imprisonment for any term of years or for up to life 
20   imprisonment.  In other words, those are the various sentencing 
21   ranges that apply to that offense.  Do you understand that?
22             THE DEFENDANT:  I do.
23             THE COURT:  All right.  Now, Mr. Spencer, just so we're 
24   absolutely clear on advising the defendant about his full range 
25   of exposures, is there a special assessment for this offense?  Is 
 1   it still the $100 for all of these? 
 2             MR. SPENCER:  Yes, Your Honor.
 3             THE COURT:  What about the periods of supervised 
 4   release? 
 5             MR. SPENCER:  May we have just a moment, Your Honor? 
 6             THE COURT:  I know.  We have to do this by the --
 7             MR. SPENCER:  Yes, Your Honor. 
 8             Five years, Your Honor.
 9             THE COURT:  Five years?  All right. 
10             Mr. Moussaoui, do you understand that almost all 
11   federal sentences have a prison component, they may have a death 
12   component if it's a capital case, and they have what is called a 
13   supervised release component.  If you receive a term of 
14   imprisonment, then when that term of imprisonment has been 
15   served, you would go on a period of supervised release. 
16             For Count 1, and I'm going to assume for Counts 2, 3, 
17   and 4 as well, unless the government advises me otherwise, the 
18   maximum period of supervised release would be five years.  During 
19   that period, if it should ever -- if you should ever get to that 
20   point, you would be under the control of a probation officer, and 
21   there might be requirements that you do certain things and 
22   requirements that you not do certain things. 
23             The key factor a defendant needs to understand about 
24   supervised release is that if he violates any condition of 
25   supervised release, the Court can send him back to prison for as 
 1   long as that period, which means a five-year exposure.  Do you 
 2   understand that? 
 3             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, but can I ask you a question about 
 4   this?  Are you saying that if I was to serve a certain time in 
 5   jail, and when I finish with, I will be -- I will have to stay in 
 6   the United States for five year, so can people --
 7             THE COURT:  For up to five years, yes.  Supervised -- 
 8   every federal sentence that has a period of imprisonment will 
 9   also have some period of supervised release that follows it. 
10             THE DEFENDANT:  And I will have to look for a job.
11             THE COURT:  Not necessarily.  It would depend what the 
12   conditions are.  But in any case, I just want you to understand 
13   that that is what goes along with a sentence of imprisonment.  Do 
14   you understand that? 
15             THE DEFENDANT:  Yeah, I understand the --
16             THE COURT:  All right.  Now there is also -- is there 
17   going to be a fine range for this one?  Is that what you're 
18   looking at, Mr. Spencer?  Mr. Karas?  
19             MR. KARAS:  Your Honor, Mr. Spencer is looking at the 
20   fine range.  The other relevant sentencing factor with respect to 
21   Count 1 is that any term of imprisonment that is imposed with 
22   respect to this count be consecutive to any other terms of 
23   imprisonment imposed as to any of the other counts in the 
24   indictment, and that is provided for in the statute, 2332b(c)(2). 
25             THE COURT:  All right.  What that means then is if 
 1   Mr. Moussaoui were found guilty of Count 1 and Count 2, any 
 2   sentence imposed on Count 1 would have to by law run after the 
 3   sentence on Count 2, consecutive to it.
 4             MR. KARAS:  That's correct, Your Honor.
 5             THE DEFENDANT:  Is it the ruling from you? 
 6             THE COURT:  That's what they're telling me is the law.
 7             THE DEFENDANT:  Yeah, but I'm talking about you are the 
 8   law here.
 9             THE COURT:  No, the law is what the Congress of the 
10   United States has said in terms of statutes.  I'm relying on the 
11   prosecutors, who are the ones who always give us the penalty 
12   exposures in a standard plea agreement, and we don't have the 
13   standard plea agreement here, as to what your exposure is. 
14             THE DEFENDANT:  So --
15             THE COURT:  Let me repeat.  As to Count 1, that 
16   conspiracy count exposes you to if a death results, either a 
17   sentence of death or a sentence of life imprisonment or a 
18   sentence of any term of years. 
19             And in addition, you're exposed to an automatic special 
20   assessment, which is like a special fine, of $100 -- that cuts 
21   across the boards for all felony convictions -- that goes into a 
22   victims compensation fund. 
23             And in addition, you would be exposed to up to five 
24   years of supervised release, which as I said is a period in which 
25   you're under the control of a probation officer. 
 1             And with Count 1, any sentence imposed on Count 1 would 
 2   have to run consecutive.  That means it would not start to run 
 3   until other sentences had been served. 
 4             And is there a fine range for this offense? 
 5             MR. SPENCER:  The maximum fine is $250,000.
 6             THE COURT:  All right, the maximum fine for that 
 7   offense is $250,000.  Do you understand those penalty provisions? 
 8             THE DEFENDANT:  I understand what the prosecution is 
 9   saying, yeah, but I find it strange that I can't get a ruling 
10   from you.
11             THE COURT:  I'm telling you those are the, those are 
12   the exposures you face for Count 1.  Do you understand that? 
13             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, I understand.
14             THE COURT:  All right.  Now with Count 2, Count 2 
15   charges you with being involved in a conspiracy to commit 
16   aircraft piracy.  The standby counsel have raised, and it was 
17   raised very recently and so the government had a quick chance to 
18   refond to it and, quite frankly, the Court hasn't had as much 
19   time as it would normally like to digest that legal argument, but 
20   your standby counsel have raised a legitimate argument that the 
21   death penalty may not be available for Count 2. 
22             What I am prepared to do, unless that changes your 
23   decision about pleading at this point, is to advise you as to the 
24   ranges that are available and advise you that, in fact, Count 2 
25   may not be a death-eligible count.  I assume, maybe you didn't, 
 1   that you read the pleading filed by standby counsel.  They raised 
 2   some significant legal issues as to some of these counts. 
 3             Did you read their, did you read their memo? 
 4             THE DEFENDANT:  I do not entertain any relation at this 
 5   stage with, with the standby counsel, so it's impossible for me 
 6   to have read something I never received.
 7             THE COURT:  Well -- 
 8             THE DEFENDANT:  So --
 9             THE COURT:  -- you did not receive it? 
10             THE DEFENDANT:  I didn't -- I don't entertain any 
11   relation with them.
12             THE COURT:  Well, then you're missing some significant 
13   legal issues that they're raising on your behalf.  But in any 
14   case, I will advise you that Count 2 as it's currently pled and 
15   as I think the final ruling of the Court would be, is that it 
16   does expose you to the possibility of the death penalty or life 
17   imprisonment or any term of years.  However, the mandatory 
18   minimum, as I understand that offense, would be 20 years of 
19   imprisonment.  Do you understand that? 
20             THE DEFENDANT:  I understand.
21             THE COURT:  All right.  There would again be up to five 
22   years of supervised release, a fine of up to $250,000, and a $100 
23   special assessment for that count.  Do you understand that?
24             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, I understand.  But in the letter 
25   you addressed me, you didn't, you didn't tell me that Count 2 
 1   have a minimum period.
 2             THE COURT:  That issue came up, frankly, after I looked 
 3   at the position of defense counsel -- standby counsel and then 
 4   saw the government's response to it. 
 5             All right.  Count 3 is the conspiracy to destroy 
 6   aircraft, and that is punishable by -- again by a fine of up to 
 7   $250,000 or a term of imprisonment for not more than 20 years.  
 8   However, if a death results, which the government has alleged 
 9   here, then it's punishable by either death or imprisonment for 
10   life. 
11             Again, I think the five-year supervised release, 
12   although it doesn't make sense, still applies even with a life 
13   sentence.  The $100 special assessment would still apply, and the 
14   $250,000 fine would still apply.  Do you understand that? 
15             THE DEFENDANT:  I understand.
16             THE COURT:  All right.  Count 4 is the conspiracy to 
17   use weapons of mass destruction, and there again, if a death 
18   results, which is alleged in this indictment, that offense is 
19   punishable by death or imprisonment for any term of years or for 
20   life imprisonment, with a fine of up to $250,000, five years of 
21   supervised release, and a $100 special assessment.  Do you 
22   understand that? 
23             THE DEFENDANT:  I understand.
24             THE COURT:  All right.  Now do you understand that you 
25   have an absolute right to plead not guilty to any one or all four 
 1   of those counts? 
 2             THE DEFENDANT:  Okay.  I just want to say that because 
 3   in the light of the new information you just gave to me, I want 
 4   to say that, of course, my, my guilty plea is not conditional but 
 5   is conditional to the fact that there will be a sentencing phase, 
 6   yes.  Because if the government will somehow now manipulate and 
 7   say that for Count 2, there will be no sentencing death by 
 8   withdrawing the death penalty and say there is no need, now it 
 9   will be the judge to decide, I will withdraw, because I want to 
10   confront the 12 American people, and that's why I'm pleading like 
11   that, okay? 
12             So if the government now, because I have not -- I was 
13   not informed, okay, were to withdraw the death penalty on Count 2 
14   and say that this will be only a mandatory sentence and the judge 
15   would rule on this, I will withdraw, and I will plead not guilty. 
16             This is consistent with the fact I don't plead guilty 
17   on Count 5 and 6, because they are a count who are directly 
18   administrated by the judge.
19             THE COURT:  Well, do you understand with Counts 5 and 
20   6, unless the government chooses to dismiss those counts, they 
21   will go forward to trial with a jury?
22             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, I understand this. 
23             THE COURT:  All right.  And it may or may not be the 
24   same jury that is going to hear the evidence on the penalty phase 
25   of Counts 1 through 4. 
 1             THE DEFENDANT:  It may or may not.  That's -- I'm not 
 2   in charge around here.  I learn it.
 3             THE COURT:  I'm just advising you that don't be 
 4   surprised at that outcome.  I'm not sure yet how we will do that 
 5   if the government proceeds with Counts 5 and 6.
 6             THE DEFENDANT:  I know that they, they will do 
 7   everything it take to convict me.
 8             THE COURT:  Mr. Spencer?
 9             MR. SPENCER:  I just want to say for the record, Your 
10   Honor, there's no bargain or deal here or agreement whatever.  We 
11   haven't decided to waive any position possible to us in 
12   sentencing at all.  We're not accepting a conditional guilty 
13   plea, and if that's what he's suggesting, I think the Court needs 
14   to query about that farther.
15             THE COURT:  If a person pleads guilty, if you continue 
16   in your answers to the Court's questions to satisfy me that your 
17   plea is a knowing and voluntary plea and if you admit to facts 
18   that will support a finding of guilt, then your plea is a plea of 
19   guilty, and unless the government agrees to a conditional plea, 
20   which would basically be the kind of thing again that is plea 
21   bargained, the Court will not accept it; that is, you're found 
22   guilty of that offense, and whether it goes to sentencing before 
23   a jury or sentencing before the Court you have no control over. 
24             THE DEFENDANT:  I think this is one interpretation, but 
25   I think that I'm pleading guilty on something that is in front of 
 1   me.  I cannot plead guilty of something that was not been 
 2   submitted to me. 
 3             So, you know, in order for me to plead guilty, it 
 4   should be knowing, so I should know what is the, the penalty 
 5   against me and what are the charge.  If the government doesn't 
 6   tell me what is the penalty, you should not -- I cannot endorse 
 7   something they are going to do in the future, okay? 
 8             So at this stage, I plead guilty knowingly, because 
 9   this is a charge against me, this is a penalty against me, and 
10   this is the most logical thing to do.  I know that logic doesn't 
11   take place around sometime, but I can't plead guilty for 
12   something I don't know.  That will be nonsense.
13             THE COURT:  Well, you're being told what the maximum 
14   exposure, what the worst is that could happen to you, which would 
15   be a sentence of death. 
16             THE DEFENDANT:  I'm, I'm not concerned about this.  I'm 
17   concerned about the fact that the government will manipulate the 
18   system of justice to deny me, okay, for this count, Count 2, to 
19   appear and to be judged by the 12 jury.  If that is their 
20   intention, they should say so now, and they say no, he is not 
21   going to appear in front of the 12 American, and I will withdraw, 
22   and I will plead not guilty on this count.  I will plead guilty 
23   on all the count who bring me in front of 12 American. 
24             I don't know why the government of the United States 
25   have a problem to entrust the guilt to 12 American.  Do you think 
 1   they are better? 
 2             THE COURT:  All right.  Count 3 exposes you, as I 
 3   indicated, to conspiracy to destroy aircraft, and I've given you, 
 4   I believe, the punishments available for that, which is a minimum 
 5   of 20 years -- I'm sorry, is punishable by fine or imprisonment 
 6   for not more than 20 years, but if death results, which is what 
 7   is alleged here, then it's punishable by death or imprisonment 
 8   for life plus the five-year supervised release period, the 
 9   $250,000 fine, and the $100 special assessment.  Do you 
10   understand that? 
11             THE DEFENDANT:  I do.
12             THE COURT:  Now with Count 4, again, your standby 
13   counsel have raised an interesting argument.  Count 4 charges you 
14   with conspiracy to use weapons of mass destruction, and they have 
15   made the argument that a domestic aircraft does not qualify under 
16   the definitions in the statute as a weapon of mass destruction. 
17             We have looked at the government's response that came 
18   in today on that issue, and I am satisfied that that argument 
19   will not be successful and is not successful. 
20             THE DEFENDANT:  I mean, that if anybody have been to 
21   New York, you will understand they can't be successful, this 
22   argument.
23             THE COURT:  Well, the difficulty is there's a technical 
24   definition under Section 921 of what a destructive device is.  A 
25   destructive device is defined as it shall not include any device 
 1   which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon. 
 2             The government has argued, I think, adequately that by 
 3   removing the pilots from the airplane, that constitutes a 
 4   redesign of the airplane sufficient to render it a destructive 
 5   device for the definitional limitations of the statute. 
 6             I accept that argument as making sense, and so --
 7             THE DEFENDANT:  I don't think so.
 8             THE COURT:  -- I will deny the defense -- standby 
 9   defense counsel's motion that that statute would not encompass a 
10   domestic airline filled with, with jet fuel that is hijacked and 
11   then used to create the impact that it did. 
12             Those are the four -- and as to that count, again, if a 
13   death results, then the potential penalty to which you are 
14   exposed is the possibility of death or imprisonment for any term 
15   of years or for life imprisonment, plus a fine of up to $250,000, 
16   up to five years of supervised release, and a special assessment 
17   of $100.  Do you understand that? 
18             THE DEFENDANT:  I do. 
19             THE COURT:  Now do you understand that the way in which 
20   I am conducting this plea, again, standby counsel have objected 
21   to this way, but the government has argued against their 
22   position, and I agree with the government on this -- in this 
23   respect:  The Court is not asking you to admit or deny any of the 
24   threshold or aggravating factors that are required to be found by 
25   the jury in order for it to consider the penalty of death in your 
 1   case.  Those factors, as you know, were added to the second 
 2   superseding indictment in its last two pages to comply with the 
 3   Supreme Court's ruling in Ring. 
 4             If you are found guilty of the underlying four 
 5   conspiracies we've described today, then as you appear to 
 6   understand fully, this case will be set for jury trial, and the 
 7   jury is going to have two basic -- or actually three basic 
 8   decisions to make. 
 9             The first thing the jury has to decide is whether or 
10   not the government has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that 
11   either, either one or both, but they only need to find one, of 
12   the threshold factors alleged in this special finding section of 
13   the second superseding indictment have been made out beyond a 
14   reasonable doubt.  Do you understand that? 
15             THE DEFENDANT:  I understand what you're saying.
16             THE COURT:  And if the jury finds unanimously beyond a 
17   reasonable doubt that one or both of the threshold factors have 
18   been made, then it moves on to the second stage of the analysis, 
19   which is, which is whether or not any of the aggravating -- of 
20   the three aggravating factors that have been alleged in the 
21   indictment have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.  Do you 
22   understand that? 
23             THE DEFENDANT:  I understand.
24             THE COURT:  And in order for the jury to find any of 
25   those statutory aggravating factors that are alleged in this 
 1   case, the jury must be unanimous.  Do you understand that? 
 2             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, I do.
 3             THE COURT:  All right.  Then after that, if the jury 
 4   has gone that far, you have a right to present any mitigating 
 5   evidence and make any mitigating arguments that you wish for the 
 6   jury to consider.  Under the statute, for example, a minor or 
 7   lesser role in the offense is clearly one of the mitigating 
 8   statutory factors, but you are free to raise any mitigating 
 9   factor whatsoever, and in fact, the jury is told that they can 
10   consider any mitigating factor that they can come up with, even 
11   if you never argued it. 
12             In other words, those 12 people look at the total 
13   amount of evidence before them and can add any mitigating factors 
14   that they want.  Do you understand that? 
15             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, I do.  For example, I will be able 
16   to point out the existence in the custody of the United States 
17   government of a conspirator who, who have worked in this 
18   conspiracy, okay?  So this also is part of mitigating factor.  
19   Because if I should be subject to death penalty, other people 
20   should be as well.
21             THE COURT:  And that may be an argument that will be 
22   successful with the jury.  But yes, you'll have a chance to make 
23   your arguments.
24             THE DEFENDANT:  And also, I will be able to, to point 
25   out that the government will say that he was a victim of 
 1   September 11, as is alleged in the indictment, endorse, 
 2   participated, and cover the operation.  So also, this is 
 3   something I will raise.
 4             THE COURT:  Well, we'll get to what you're going to 
 5   raise down the road.  I'm not giving you an advisory opinion now, 
 6   but I'm indicating that at that trial, you would have a right to 
 7   raise before the jury any and all proper mitigating factors that 
 8   you wanted.  And as I said, the jury can consider other ones. 
 9             Then the jury must make their determination, and the 
10   issue before the jury is whether or not any one or all of the 
11   aggravating factors sufficiently outweigh the mitigating factors 
12   to justify the imposition of a death sentence. 
13             And in fact, even if there are no mitigating factors, 
14   the jury could look at the aggravating factors and still 
15   determine there is not sufficient -- that aggravating factors are 
16   not sufficient to justify the death penalty.  So there's a wide 
17   range of discretion that is given to the jury.  Do you understand 
18   that?
19             THE DEFENDANT:  I understand.
20             THE COURT:  All right.  But what you will not be able 
21   to do during the penalty phase of this trial is to come in and 
22   say that you were not -- if I have found you guilty of the 
23   offense, that you were not part of that conspiracy.  Do you 
24   understand that?  That argument will not -- it is not consistent 
25   with an adjudication of guilt. 
 1             THE DEFENDANT:  That's, that's your, your 
 2   interpretation.
 3             THE COURT:  No, no, that's how the trial will be run.  
 4   If you -- you can argue a mitigating role.  You can argue that I 
 5   was on the periphery of this conspiracy, but the jury will get 
 6   this case with an explicit instruction from the Court that you 
 7   have admitted being guilty of the conspiracy.
 8             THE DEFENDANT:  Which one? 
 9             THE COURT:  Count 1, 2, 3, 4, whatever counts we 
10   accept, or all four of them.
11             THE DEFENDANT:  You, you will tell me where in the 
12   indictment it is alleged, at which in the indictment, which point 
13   in the indictment it's alleged that I even, I knew about 
14   September 11. 
15             THE COURT:  Well --
16             THE DEFENDANT:  It's not even alleged.
17             THE COURT:  We're going to move on to --
18             THE DEFENDANT:  No, but this is not to be moved.  This 
19   is essential, okay, in order people to understand my position, 
20   okay?  I plead guilty to what is in the indictment.  I cannot 
21   plead guilty to what the, the government is going to allege 
22   during trial, okay? 
23             Today I have been given a document, a precise document.  
24   I read it, and I say that according to Rule 11, I can truthfully 
25   say that I had, I had some guilt in the alleged fact who are in 
 1   this document.  For example, they allege that I provide 
 2   guesthouse.  That is possible for me to accept this.  It is 
 3   alleged that I provide training.  I can -- it's possible to me to 
 4   accept this.  So there is so many allegation who for me it's 
 5   possible to accept, but certain of them are not possible. 
 6             So it is not, it is not proper to say that yes, if I 
 7   plead guilty, yes, you are on the plane.  It doesn't mean.  I 
 8   plead guilty and for what is in the indictment.  I cannot plead 
 9   guilty for something I don't know or is not alleged or -- that's 
10   impossible.
11             THE COURT:  I explained to you in the letter that was 
12   sent to you that the law of conspiracy basically punishes people 
13   who join in a common scheme or plan to do something the law 
14   forbids.  Remember I explained that to you, that what a 
15   conspiracy is, it's an agreement between two or more people to do 
16   something which the law forbids. 
17             THE DEFENDANT:  This, this --
18             THE COURT:  Do you understand that's what I wrote to 
19   you? 
20             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, I understand very much that the 
21   conspiracy law that say that it's an agreement between two or 
22   more people to carry on some action by legal or illegal mean, and 
23   the object of the action is, is illegal. 
24             So I can, I can plead guilty on this, but it doesn't 
25   still put me on the plane.  It mean that yes, the law, the law of 
 1   America prohibited to, to have terrorist activity, to do, to, for 
 2   example, to provide guesthouse, to provide training. 
 3             This is all in the indictment, so I'm truthful.  I 
 4   don't cheat, I don't lie, I don't evade.  I'm saying yes, I might 
 5   at some time have engaged in this kind of thing, okay?  But it 
 6   doesn't mean that I'm on the plane. 
 7             You want me to, to plead guilty to both phase of the 
 8   element.  You are pushing me in order so I will endorse the 
 9   theory of the government, not factual basis. 
10             The Rule 11 is very clear, there should be factual 
11   basis for my guilty plea.  And I'm asking the Court to allow me 
12   to go through the indictment and to show to everybody where are 
13   the factual basis for me to enter truthfully a guilty plea.
14             THE COURT:  All right, we're going to go through the 
15   essential elements now. 
16             THE DEFENDANT:  That's the one you did of mine --
17             THE COURT:  The essential elements involve --
18             THE DEFENDANT:  -- according to the wish of the 
19   government, but the factual basis is was I or not in Khalden?  
20   Was I not in Kandahar?  That's the fact.  But then what they 
21   propose me to endorse is theory. 
22             THE COURT:  All right.  In Count 1, the essence of the 
23   agreement, the essence of the conspiracy in Count 1 is a 
24   conspiracy occurring in the Eastern District of Virginia, the 
25   Southern District of New York, and elsewhere that you, using your 
 1   own name as well as the names of Shaqil and Abu Khalid al 
 2   Sahrawi, willfully and knowingly agreed with members and 
 3   associates of al Qaeda, an international terrorist group 
 4   dedicated to opposing non-Islamic governments with force and 
 5   violence, to kill and maim persons within the United States and 
 6   to create a substantial risk of serious bodily injury to other 
 7   persons by destroying and damaging structures, conveyances, and 
 8   other real and personal property within the United States, in 
 9   violation of the laws of both the states and the United States, 
10   and that you did this in circumstances involving conduct that 
11   transcended national boundaries and in which facilities of 
12   interstate and foreign commerce were used in furtherance of the 
13   offense, and the offense obstructed, delayed, and affected 
14   interstate and foreign commerce. 
15             The victim was the United States government and members 
16   of the United States uniformed services, as well as officials, 
17   officers, employees, and agents of the government branches, 
18   departments, and agencies of the United States, and the 
19   structures, conveyances, and other real and personal property 
20   were in whole or part owned, possessed, and leased to the United 
21   States and its departments and agencies, resulting in the deaths 
22   of thousands of persons on September 11, 2001.
23             Now the nature of that conspiracy in Count 1 is an 
24   agreement between you and at least one other person, some of whom 
25   were members or associates of al Qaeda, and that the agreement, 
 1   the essence of this conspiracy was to kill and maim persons 
 2   within the United States and to create substantial risk of bodily 
 3   injury to such persons by destroying structures and other such 
 4   things, and that interstate or transnational boundaries were 
 5   crossed.  That's the essence of that conspiracy.
 6             Do you understand that, Mr. Moussaoui? 
 7             THE DEFENDANT:  I understand, but I think that you 
 8   don't understand maybe because of the accent, you know, so rather 
 9   not to go again through what I just say, I will just point out to 
10   your own word, maybe that you will understand your own word. 
11             To be guilty of a conspiracy, a defendant need not know 
12   all the member of the conspiracy, need not to have been a member 
13   of the conspiracy for the entire existence, need not to know all 
14   the goal of the conspiracy, and need not himself have committed 
15   an overt act.  He must, however, have entered a mutual 
16   understanding with one or more of the coconspirators with the 
17   knowledge of at least some of the unlawful objective of the 
18   conspiracy and with the intention of aiding the conspiracy and 
19   achieving its unlawful objective or objectives. 
20             So you will tell me if I understand wrongly your own 
21   word, that somebody can be in a conspiracy without knowing all 
22   the member, knowing they exist, all the fact of the conspiracy, 
23   but he should know and have agreed about some of unlawful 
24   objectives, correct? 
25             THE COURT:  Correct. 
 1             THE DEFENDANT:  Okay.  So to provide, to provide 
 2   guesthouse, okay, it is in the indictment.  It is part of the, 
 3   the conspiracy. 
 4             So I can say, for example, it's only an example, yes, I 
 5   provide guesthouse, but I did not know about September 11.  
 6   That's your own word.  You say that there is no contradiction.
 7             THE COURT:  It doesn't work that way.
 8             THE DEFENDANT:  Yeah, you work according to your own 
 9   word.
10             THE COURT:  You still -- the conspiracy here, there are 
11   certain objectives or purposes of the conspiracy in Count 1.  The 
12   first one would be to kill and maim persons within the United 
13   States. 
14             Now if you're standing in court today and saying that 
15   yes, I was a member of al Qaeda, or I had friends in al Qaeda, 
16   and maybe I provided a guesthouse to some al Qaeda people, but I 
17   never intended or I never agreed to create -- to kill or maim 
18   persons in the United States, then you're not agreeing to this 
19   particular conspiracy. 
20             This conspiracy also indicates to create a substantial 
21   risk of serious bodily injury to another person by destroying or 
22   damaging structures.  If you're saying to the Court you never 
23   agreed with anybody to destroy or damage structures or to injure 
24   people -- and that's your right to say you never did that -- but 
25   what I'm telling you then is I can't accept your guilty plea, 
 1   because you're not admitting to this offense, and you should not 
 2   admit to the offense if you don't agree that you did that.
 3             THE DEFENDANT:  No, I think that that's, of course, 
 4   your interpretation, because if you go back to Rule 11, it 
 5   doesn't support your interpretation.  The factual basis are it's 
 6   a very simple thing.
 7             THE COURT:  But the factual basis, Mr. Moussaoui -- I 
 8   agree with you that you don't have to agree to necessarily every 
 9   fact in the government's proffer, but the essence of a conspiracy 
10   is that a person joins with one or more people to do something 
11   the law forbids.  In other words, you have to agree if you're in 
12   a conspiracy that you understand the conspiracy's goal is to do 
13   X, or if there are five goals, it may be that only knowledge of 
14   one or two is sufficient.  Otherwise, you're not a member of that 
15   conspiracy. 
16             So, for example, if you came to the United States to 
17   learn how to fly crop duster planes because down the road maybe 
18   you were going to poison somebody's water supply, that's not the 
19   conspiracy alleged in this case.
20             THE DEFENDANT:  You know, you can use a crop duster to 
21   destroy heroin crops as well.
22             THE COURT:  In any case, what I'm saying to you is I 
23   don't think based upon the way you're responding to the Court's 
24   questions that you're prepared to admit the essential factual 
25   elements that are necessary to find a person guilty of a 
 1   conspiracy. 
 2             We could try to move on to another one of these counts 
 3   if Count 1 is tripping you up, but the simple fact is that unless 
 4   a person is, in fact -- did, in fact, join with others to achieve 
 5   certain common goal or purpose, there has to be a commonality 
 6   there, and if you're not admitting to the commonality, you're not 
 7   admitting to these conspiracies.  Do you understand that? 
 8             THE DEFENDANT:  I understand what you are saying.  I 
 9   disagree, because you are saying, your own words, that --
10             THE COURT:  What you may want to do is you may want to 
11   stipulate -- it sounds as though you're not disputing that you 
12   were at one of these training camps in, in al Qaeda.  It sounds 
13   as though you're not, you're not disagreeing with some of the 
14   facts in the indictment. 
15             You may want to therefore consider stipulating to those 
16   particular facts, in which case there doesn't have to be any 
17   evidence presented on them, but at this point, I don't believe 
18   that you are prepared to enter guilty pleas to any of these 
19   counts, because you're not admitting to -- or not prepared to 
20   admit, it seems to me, to the essence of the conspiracy. 
21             Should we try the second, third, or fourth counts? 
22             THE DEFENDANT:  Go ahead. 
23             THE COURT:  All right.  Count 2 charges that from 1989 
24   until July of 2002, in the Eastern District of Virginia, the 
25   Southern District of New York, and elsewhere -- and again, you 
 1   can join a conspiracy at any point.  You don't have to have been 
 2   in it since 1989, but you have to have joined in it at some point 
 3   during its life -- you, using your own name as well as the name 
 4   Shaqil and Abu Khalid al Sahrawi, willfully and knowingly agreed 
 5   with members and associates of al Qaeda, an international 
 6   terrorist group dedicated to opposing non-Islamic governments 
 7   with force and violence, to commit aircraft piracy by seizing and 
 8   exercising control of aircraft in the special aircraft 
 9   jurisdiction of the United States by force, violence, threat of 
10   violence, and intimidation, and with wrongful intent, with the 
11   result that thousands of people died on September 11, 2001.
12             Now to be guilty of that conspiracy, you would -- the 
13   government would first of all have to prove beyond a reasonable 
14   doubt that that specific conspiracy, that is, that there was a 
15   conspiracy with members of al Qaeda and others to commit aircraft 
16   piracy. 
17             No. 2, they'd have to prove that at some point during 
18   the existence of that conspiracy, that you, knowing that that was 
19   the goal, that is, that this group of people planned to hijack 
20   aircraft, joined it.  You agreed to help become a part of that. 
21             That's the essence of what they would have to agree -- 
22   prove, that there was the conspiracy and that you knowingly and 
23   willfully joined that conspiracy in order to further its goals. 
24             Do you understand that? 
25             THE DEFENDANT:  I understand what you are saying.
 1             THE COURT:  Now do you have -- are you able to agree to 
 2   the facts that I've just alleged here or just described for you?  
 3   That is, do you agree that you joined with members of al Qaeda in 
 4   a plan to seize and exercise control over aircraft in the special 
 5   aircraft jurisdiction of the United States? 
 6             THE DEFENDANT:  I'm going to have a recess.
 7             THE COURT:  All right.  I think then that the 
 8   defendant's answers to these questions indicate that he is not 
 9   entering guilty pleas, which is his absolute right.  That's not 
10   in any respect --
11             THE DEFENDANT:  I want to recess for, like, ten 
12   minutes.
13             THE COURT:  You want to think about that? 
14             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, I want to recess.  Then I will 
15   make my, my position --
16             THE COURT:  Would you like Professor Reza to talk to 
17   you at all? 
18             THE DEFENDANT:  No, I don't need anything.  I just 
19   want, like, 15 minutes, and I will be back. 
20             THE COURT:  All right, we'll take a 15-minute recess. 
21             (Recess from 2:03 p.m., until 2:17 p.m.) 
22                            (Defendant present.)
23             THE COURT:  All right, Mr. Moussaoui, you may go back 
24   up to the lectern. 
25             Mr. Moussaoui, we were addressing the essential 
 1   elements of Count 2, which is a conspiracy to commit aircraft 
 2   piracy, and you wanted a recess to think about that. 
 3             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes.  But -- Amuseliyyah Mohammad, 
 4   please be open the Prophet Mohammad. 
 5             Today we are, we are here because I ask to plead 
 6   guilty, and there was one -- somebody say to be or not to be, 
 7   that is the question.  And today I say guilty or not guilty, that 
 8   is the question. 
 9             Because I want to plead guilty, but you want to tie me, 
10   to link me to certain facts who will guarantee my death.  And as 
11   I say before, in Islam society is forbidden, so I cannot endorse 
12   any action who in a direct manner, in a rational manner will 
13   conduct my death. 
14             And because of the different condition you put on my, 
15   on my guilty plea, this condition was not very anticipated, 
16   because the Rule 11 talk about factual basis.  You, you talk 
17   about essential fact, element.  That's quite different, because 
18   it's a new  -- the old judgment, factual basis is for everybody 
19   to judge. 
20             So the government in its opposition to the standby 
21   counsel supplemental memorandum to support the motion to dismiss 
22   government notice of intent to seek sentence of death stated, 
23   anyway, the government stated that we see no reason why a jury 
24   cannot be convened for the sole purpose of deciding the fact, the 
25   fact that will determine my sentence, meaning that there is no 
 1   reason why I should not be in front of a jury and to define what 
 2   are the fact I'm responsible. 
 3             I'm referring to United States v. Henry.  It's a 
 4   ruling. 
 5             So what I say, it seems that I will not be, have this 
 6   changed, with the different condition that you are putting on me, 
 7   because what I will agree, okay, it's the same, the same 
 8   stipulation that the government wanted me to endorse and the same 
 9   thing were in the notice, notice of special finding, meaning for 
10   the death penalty. 
11             And I cannot do this, because my own point, like I say 
12   clearly and consistently, my own point is to be able to put 
13   forward to the American people my role when I came to the United 
14   States, what I did and what I didn't do.  And that's why I make 
15   this move. 
16             So rather than to, to take a stead-bone position and 
17   because I know that you will not change your mind because you 
18   have consistently sided with the government, and I don't want to 
19   enter a controversy here, but that's a fact, but dictated by my 
20   obligation toward my creator, Allah, to save my life and to 
21   defend my life, I have to withdraw my guilty plea. 
22             THE COURT:  As I told you, Mr. Moussaoui, I have 
23   advised you consistently to think carefully about this decision.  
24   This is not an unwise decision on your part.  You clearly are not 
25   admitting to the essential elements of these conspiracies, and 
 1   you have an absolute right under our criminal justice system to 
 2   require the government to put its proof before a jury and see 
 3   whether they have sufficient evidence to convince the jury beyond 
 4   a reasonable doubt. 
 5             If they don't have that evidence, you'll be found not 
 6   guilty.  But this is your right, and we will not hold against you 
 7   in any respect the fact that you attempted -- and the record will 
 8   reflect, and I'm not going to permit the government during the 
 9   trial to make reference to the fact that the defendant tried to 
10   plead guilty.  There has been no guilty plea in this case and -- 
11   because there has not been a sufficient admission -- of course, 
12   we haven't formally gotten to that yet, but it is clear that you 
13   are not admitting to the essential elements of the specific 
14   conspiracies that are described here. 
15             THE DEFENDANT:  I have to say that in term of 
16   tactically, this also have made many drawback for me, because it 
17   will allow in the future, as they have just indicated, these 
18   people, referring to the people that you have put on my back, 
19   the -- at least these people, I know that they are my enemy.  
20   These people, they are coming from the back.  It is most 
21   disgusting. 
22             So, so I will have still to fight their attempt to 
23   remove me, because the whole point is to have me removed from my 
24   defense.  That's why I decided this in the first place, so I 
25   could put my, my story forward. 
 1             So I can -- I believe that in the future they will try 
 2   again to say that I'm mentally deficient or whatever, okay, but 
 3   to this point, I'm going to have a change of tactic as well. 
 4             I'm going to assign them, because in theory you have 
 5   said that these people are at my service, and they are here to 
 6   help me.  That's what you have consistently say in your order.  
 7   Okay?  So I'm going to assign them to find different witness, 
 8   because then I will be able to expose them just pretending to 
 9   want to help me. 
10             And I, I have asked the French counselor, the French 
11   government to assign Mr. Freeman to be my counsel from the French 
12   counselor.  This is allowable by the SAM. 
13             So if the French counselor decide to assist, assist me, 
14   at the moment more than a week they have done nothing to help me, 
15   despite me being born and bred in France, but I have too much of 
16   a beard, I believe.  So --
17             THE COURT:  All right.  Well, Mr. Moussaoui, you 
18   also --
19             THE DEFENDANT:  So I just want to say this small change 
20   in thing, okay?  I want to, still to contact Mr. Freeman.  I will 
21   talk to Mr. -- the gentleman --
22             THE COURT:  Professor Reza? 
23             THE DEFENDANT:  I will talk to Mr. Reza.  But I will 
24   not meet with any of these people, because it's just impossible.  
25   I will entertain written conversa- -- communication to indicate 
 1   to them who are the people who are implicated in this conspiracy, 
 2   the people in Britain, especially a person with the name of 
 3   Ahmed, Atif Ahmed, who is British agent who have, who have taken 
 4   a very important part in this conspiracy.  And the FBI know about 
 5   this.  And I will apply again to appear in front of the grand 
 6   jury. 
 7             But I want to say to everybody for the record that my 
 8   aim in pleading guilty was to expose all the information I have.  
 9   And it is unbelievable that in your own society, somebody cannot 
10   talk about what he know in a criminal justice system. 
11             THE COURT:  All right.  I would also advise you, I 
12   believe that your mother is in court today with the attorney who 
13   has been laboring at her side.  You have Professor Reza here.  
14   There are legal resources available to you, but I understand you 
15   will be communicating by mail with standby counsel and I --
16             THE DEFENDANT:  I will indicate to them what the name 
17   of the witness in order for me either to expose them as what they 
18   are or to receive the witness in court.  But the only people who 
19   are allowed to speak on my behalf are not these people.  I want 
20   to make it clear these people do not speak on my behalf.  Only 
21   Brother Freeman speak on my behalf, is the only person.  That the 
22   record will show it, people will know, Brother Freeman from 
23   Houston is the only person entitled to say a word to the outside 
24   world on my behalf.
25             THE COURT:  All right.  Well, you understand my ruling 
 1   on that.  All right.  There is nothing further, unless there is 
 2   anything that the government --
 3             THE DEFENDANT:  No, I don't understand your ruling on 
 4   this, sorry. 
 5             THE COURT:  Well, I have -- anything further?
 6             THE DEFENDANT:  What is your ruling, please?
 7             MR. SPENCER:  No, there is not.
 8             THE COURT:  Mr. Freeman, because he is not admitted to 
 9   practice in this Court and has refused to enter his appearance 
10   formally on your behalf so that he is accountable to the Court, 
11   is not deemed to be an attorney of record for purposes of the 
12   SAM. 
13             Now, if the government wants to change the SAM -- this 
14   is not the Court's rule, this is the Justice Department's 
15   regulations that apply to your incarceration.  If the United 
16   States doesn't care about Mr. Freeman having access to you, 
17   that's up to them, but as long as the SAM is in place, then the 
18   Court is required to follow the SAM unless it is changed, and 
19   this man cannot appear as an attorney.  He's no different from 
20   any person on the street, because although he is a lawyer, he is 
21   not admitted to practice here.  I have told you that and him that 
22   numerous times in my orders.
23             THE DEFENDANT:  Okay.  But there is one thing.  The 
24   government doesn't say this, because I received this morning the, 
25   the memorandum for the Court of Appeal.  Inside this the 
 1   government was saying that, in fact, you have issued an order to 
 2   bar Mr. Freeman to access me.  And in the same, same -- I have 
 3   the thing with me.  If you allow me two minutes, I will produce 
 4   it. 
 5             So the government is saying that you are responsible 
 6   for me not having Mr. Freeman.  That's written.  And you have to 
 7   give me two minutes to get something.  And you are saying in the 
 8   letter to Mr. Freeman that I received this morning that you 
 9   didn't issue the order, so who, who is to believe? 
10             Either you are saying now that you didn't issue this 
11   order or they have been lying to the Court of Appeals, because 
12   they have stated clearly -- I can show it to you -- that they -- 
13   you have issue an order barring Mr., Mr. Freeman and the Court of 
14   Appeal should not repeal this order.  That's the statement of the 
15   government, so who should I believe? 
16             THE COURT:  I'll say -- Mr. Moussaoui, I'll say it one 
17   more time.  The SAM says you get the right to unmonitored visits 
18   only with the attorney of record.  That's the term that they use. 
19             All this Court has said is that Mr. Freeman cannot and 
20   does not qualify as an attorney of record because he has 
21   consistently made it clear that he is not entering an appearance 
22   on your behalf. 
23             Moreover, he couldn't without going through -- and he 
24   could get admitted to practice here if he followed the local 
25   rule.  So we have a lawyer who is not admitted to practice in 
 1   this district, who is not the attorney of record representing 
 2   you. 
 3             Therefore, under the SAM, he is no different from any 
 4   member of the public.  Now, members of the public can write to 
 5   you under the SAM.  That letter would be reviewed by an FBI 
 6   agent, and if there was no objection to it, it would go to you.
 7             THE DEFENDANT:  Nothing have come to me.
 8             THE COURT:  You can write -- I'm sorry? 
 9             THE DEFENDANT:  Nothing come to me.  I have been months 
10   in jail.  I don't have one paper.
11             THE COURT:  Then no one is writing to you.
12             THE DEFENDANT:  No, no, that not correct.  That just 
13   not the case.
14             THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Moussaoui, we've had a very --  
15   we had a very civilized hearing today.  There is nothing further 
16   before the Court, and we are going to recess court for the day. 
17             Defendant is remanded at this time.
18                            (Which were all the proceedings
19                             had at this time.)
 1                      CERTIFICATE OF THE REPORTERS
 2        We certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript of the 
 3   record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter. 
                                        Anneliese J. Thomson
 9                                        Karen Brynteson