24 April 2002
Source: Digital file purchased from Eastern District of Virginia official reporter Anneliese Thomson; (703) 299-8595 by way of www.exemplaris.com for $66.00. File digitally signed by Ms. Thomson.
See related case documents: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-zm-cd.htm
0001 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA 2 ALEXANDRIA DIVISION 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, . Criminal No. 01-455-A . 4 vs. . Alexandria, Virginia . April 22, 2002 5 ZACARIAS MOUSSAOUI, . 10:00 a.m. a/k/a Shaqil, a/k/a . 6 Abu Khalid al Sahrawi, . . 7 Defendant. . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . 9 TRANSCRIPT OF MOTION HEARING BEFORE THE HONORABLE LEONIE M. BRINKEMA 10 UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE 11 APPEARANCES: 12 FOR THE GOVERNMENT: ROBERT A. SPENCER, AUSA KENNETH M. KARAS, AUSA 13 DAVID J. NOVAK, AUSA United States Attorney's Office 14 2100 Jamieson Avenue Alexandria, VA 22314 15 16 17 (APPEARANCES CONT'D. ON FOLLOWING PAGE) 18 19 20 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER: ANNELIESE J. THOMSON, RDR, CRR 21 U.S. District Court, Fifth Floor 401 Courthouse Square 22 Alexandria, VA 22314 (703)299-8595 23 24 (Pages 1 - 65 ) 25 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION OF STENOGRAPHIC NOTES 0002 1 APPEARANCES: (Cont'd.) 2 FOR THE DEFENDANT: FRANK W. DUNHAM, JR. Federal Public Defender 3 Office of the Federal Public Defender 4 1650 King Street Alexandria, VA 22314 5 and EDWARD B. MAC MAHON, ESQ. 6 P.O. Box 903 107 East Washington Street 7 Middleburg, VA 20118 and 8 GERALD THOMAS ZERKIN Assistant Federal Public Defender 9 Office of the Public Defender One Capital Square 10 830 East Main Street, Suite 1100 Richmond, VA 23219 11 and JUDY CLARKE 12 Assistant Federal Public Defender Federal Defenders of Eastern 13 Washington and Idaho 10 N. Post, Suite 700 14 Spokane, WA 99201 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0003 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE CLERK: Criminal Case 2001-455-A, United States of 3 America v. Zacarias Moussaoui. 4 (Defendant in.) 5 THE CLERK: Will counsel please state their appearance 6 for the record. 7 MR. SPENCER: Good morning, Your Honor. Rob Spencer, 8 Ken Karas, and Dave Novak for the United States. 9 THE COURT: Good morning. 10 MR. DUNHAM: Good morning, Your Honor. Frank Dunham, 11 the Federal Public Defender, Jerry Zerkin and Ed MacMahon. 12 THE DEFENDANT: Ma'am. 13 MR. DUNHAM: And Judy Clarke for the defense. 14 THE DEFENDANT: No, I am sorry to note they are not 15 anymore my lawyer. 16 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, go up to the lectern, 17 please. 18 THE DEFENDANT: Thank you. 19 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, before you say anything, you 20 have a right to speak in court, and I want to advise you that 21 anything you say may be used against you by the government in the 22 prosecution of its case. Do you understand that, sir? 23 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, thank you. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 (Pause.) 0004 1 THE COURT: Just one minute. 2 Just speak up loudly, Mr. Moussaoui. Go ahead. 3 THE DEFENDANT: Zacarias Moussaoui, (Arabic spoken.) 4 In the name of Allah, I, Zacarias Moussaoui, today the 22nd of 5 April, 2002, after being prevented for a long time to mount an 6 effective defense by overly restrictive and oppressive condition 7 of confinement, take the control of my defense by entering a pro 8 se defense set for presentation in order to mount a significant 9 defense of the defense of the life that Allah, the most 10 masterful, has granted to me. 11 I, slave of Allah, Zacarias Moussaoui, reject 12 completely the imposition of the U.S. so-called appointed lawyer 13 Dunham, Zerkin, MacMahon, and denounce their misconduct and their 14 intentional ineffective assistance. 15 I, slave of Allah, Zacarias Moussaoui, will engage 16 action against the U.S. Department of so-called Justice for very 17 serious misconduct reason that I will only explain in open court 18 today. 19 I, slave of Allah, Zacarias Moussaoui, have the 20 intention in the shortest time practically possible to hire my 21 own chosen Muslim lawyer to assist me in matters of procedure and 22 understanding of the U.S. law. This Muslim lawyer chosen by me 23 will only assume -- will not assume any representation in the 24 Court. 25 So physically I have to go through some events before I 0005 1 can explain the reason I have chosen with -- of making this 2 decision, and if you will allow me, I will explain to you in a 3 short time. 4 I'm sure that you will recall that I did try to contact 5 you on the 27th of March. I sent a message through the jail so 6 that I would place a phone call to your office or direct to you. 7 And at the end of the message that I have here, I made clear that 8 I didn't want my lawyer to be informed, because a very serious 9 development have happened. So this is, in a sense, the letter 10 that I wanted -- I tried to send to you. 11 THE COURT: All right. Now, Mr. Moussaoui, before you 12 publish that in open court, I want to make sure you understand 13 that once you've announced it, everybody's going to know. And 14 there may be private things that went on between you and your 15 counsel that it would not be to your advantage to have the 16 government be aware of. 17 THE DEFENDANT: I'm fully aware that on my right that 18 some people were seeking my death. I'm fully aware. Thank you. 19 THE COURT: But do you nevertheless want to make this 20 public like this? 21 THE DEFENDANT: Absolutely. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 THE DEFENDANT: (Arabic spoken.) In the name of Allah, 24 oh, you who believe, take not as your Bitanah, advisor, 25 consultant, protector, helper, friend, those outside of your 0006 1 religion, pagan, Jew, Christian, and hypocrites, since they will 2 not fail to do their best to corrupt you. 3 They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already 4 appeared from their mouth. But what their breast conceals is far 5 worse. Indeed, we have made plain to you the Ayat, the proof, 6 the evidence, the verse, if you understand. 7 Koran, Sura Al-i-Imran, Number 3, Ayat 118. 8 May Allah forgive me, I failed to fully understand. 9 Under the cover of assistance of the defense counsel, 10 the legal version of humanitarian assistance, the United States 11 are orchestrating my sending to the safe haven, Bosnia style. 12 What they have done is a sophisticated version of the 13 Troy horse or the kiss of death. Dead, injured, judge, 14 investigator, and the so-called defender are all federal 15 employee. I can't wait for the jury. 16 They appointed, imposed the dream team. Greed, fame, 17 and vanity is their motivation. Their game is deception. Their 18 slogan is no scruple. The aim is SAMs appeal. Their plot: Oh, 19 you to whom the Koran has been sent down. Verily, you are a mad 20 man. Surah Hijr, Number 15, Ayat No. 6. 21 Of course, when they understood that I will not cave 22 in, they say we could go to the judge and say that you are not 23 fit or a bit paranoid. The government might agree, because in 24 the U.S., we do execute mentally retarded people, Mr. Moussaoui. 25 So what to do? Then fight. Then fight in the cause of 0007 1 Allah. You are not tasked, held responsible except for yourself, 2 and incite the believers to fight along with you. It may be that 3 Allah will restrain the evil of the disbeliever. And Allah is 4 stronger in might and stronger in punishment. 5 Surah An-Nisaa, Ayat 84. 6 Indeed, I want to fight against the evil force of the 7 federal government. And Allah say, verily those who disbelieve 8 spend their wealth to hinder men from the path of Allah and so 9 will they continue to spend it, but in the end it will become an 10 anguish for them. Then they will be overcome. And those who 11 disbelieve will be gathered into hell. Surah Al Anfal, Number 8, 12 Ayat 36. 13 No doubt they are spending million of their haram, evil 14 money, to kill me. Therefore, oh, you who believe, shall I guide 15 you to trade that will save you from a painful torment; that you 16 will believe in Allah and his messenger, peace be upon him, and 17 that you will fight in the cause of Allah with your wealth and 18 your lives that will be better for you but know. Surah As-Saff 19 61, Ayat Number 1011. 20 Inshallah, Allah willing, there will be some Muslims 21 who want to fight and spend for the money for the real day of 22 judgment. From the beginning, the United States is preventing 23 any Muslim help to reach me, so let me clarify a few points. 24 (Arabic spoken.) First I will not entertain the 25 illusion that a U.S. District Judge Leonie Brinkema is an honest 0008 1 broker. Reality tells me that this judge is here as a field 2 general, entrusted with the mission to get this matter over 3 quickly. Every general has a commander-in-chief, and I know how 4 much the U.S. commander-in-chief wants me to be over quickly. 5 No problem, because as Allah say, oh, you who believe, 6 when you meet those who disbelieve in the battlefield, never turn 7 your back to them. 8 THE COURT: Just a second. 9 Mr. Moussaoui, I'm going to let you finish in a second. 10 You've written out what you're reading to the Court right now; is 11 that correct? You're reading from text? 12 THE DEFENDANT: Partly. 13 THE COURT: All right. Because you are making 14 reference to, I assume, citations in Islamic writings -- 15 THE DEFENDANT: It's the Koran. I'm reading Koran. 16 THE COURT: You're reading from the Koran. 17 THE DEFENDANT: Yeah. 18 THE COURT: All right. My court reporter, to make sure 19 we have an accurate transcript of these proceedings, is going to 20 request you give us a copy of what you're reading from. 21 THE DEFENDANT: Absolutely. 22 THE COURT: All right, that's fine. The marshals need 23 to make sure that's done when this proceeding is over. 24 All right. Go ahead. 25 THE DEFENDANT: So yes, I will fight. I have no 0009 1 problem, because as Allah say, oh, you who believe, when you meet 2 those who believe in the battlefield, never turn their back to 3 them. Surah Al-Anfal, Ayat 15. 4 My rule of engagement as Allah say, invite to the way 5 of your Lord with wisdom and fair preaching. And argue with them 6 in a way that is better. Surah An-Nahl Number 16, Ayat 125. 7 These good Muslim manners have, of course, nothing to 8 do with a docile attitude. As Allah say, oh, you who believe, 9 when you meet an enemy force, take a firm stand against them. 10 And remember the name of Allah much, so that you might be 11 successful. Surah Al-Anfal, Number 8, Ayat 45. 12 I will not make your day by giving any excuse to your 13 marshal to assault me in court, but be sure that I do not fear 14 you. As Allah say, it is only Satan that suggested to you fear 15 of his friends. So fear them not, but fear Allah if you are 16 true believer. Surah Al-i-Imran, Number 3, Ayat 175. 17 My experience tells me that the U.S. will not hesitate 18 to have a trial without me. After all, they only need me for the 19 gas chamber. But Allah is my witness. Nobody will ever 20 represent me, Inshallah, because suicide is forbidden in Islam. 21 As Allah say, verily, my prayer, my sacrifice, my 22 living, and my dying are for Allah, the Lord of the Alamin. 23 Surah Al-An'am, Number 6, Ayat 162. 24 To Allah we belong and to Allah we return. I turn to 25 Allah, the almighty, for all the Muslim and all the Mujahedin I 0010 1 pray to Allah, the masterful, for all my brothers in jail like in 2 Algeria, everywhere in the land of Allah. 3 I pray to Allah for the return of Andalusia, Spain, to 4 the Muslim and the liberation of Ceuta and Medilla. I pray to 5 Allah for the return of India to the Muslims and to the 6 liberation of Kashimir. 7 I pray to Allah, Al Shadeed Al Y Rikab, Al Shadeed Al Y 8 Rikab, (phonetic), the severe in punishment for the destruction 9 of the Jewish people and states and for the liberation of 10 Palestine by the Muslim, for the Muslim. 11 I pray to Allah, the protector, for the destruction of 12 Russia and the return of the Islamic Emirates of 13 Chechnia. I pray to Allah, the powerful, for the return of the 14 Islamic Emirates of Afghanistan and the destruction of the United 15 States of America. 16 I pray to Allah, the forgiver, to forgive us, the 17 Muslim, for the occupation of the land of Haramain, the holy 18 land. 19 I pray to Allah, the all powerful, for the return of 20 Mecca, Medina and Al-Kuds in the hand of the Muslim. 21 (Arabic Spoken.) 22 Oh, Allah, you are my supporter and you are my helper. 23 By you I move, and by you I attack, and by you I battle. Prophet 24 Muhammad, peace be upon him, Saheeh Al Tirmedee. 25 So, America, America, I'm ready to fight in your Don 0011 1 King fight, even both hands tied behind the back in court. And 2 be sure Inshallah that all your ingenuity will not prevent me to 3 be in court in October. Inshallah, you will get the point. 4 The last word belongs to Allah as the all wise. And 5 remember, and remember when the disbeliever plotted against you 6 to imprison you or to kill you or to get you out from your home, 7 Mecca, they were plotting and Allah too was planning. And Allah 8 is the best of planner. Surah Al-Anfal, Number 8, Ayat 30. 9 Abukalid Sahrawi. 10 That was the essence of the letter that I wanted to 11 send you, to be read in open court. But the argument is coming. 12 It will be much shorter. 13 Can you stop speaking, please? 14 Yes, as you know, I have been arrested in Minnesota, 15 and I've been transferred by plane to New York and the jail in 16 Brooklyn. So when I arrived in Brooklyn, after a few day, I was 17 transferred to the Civic Center, the tribunal, to have a 18 pretrial. 19 So I was -- I went to an office, and they have -- in 20 this office, I met a, a clerk or an official. And he make me 21 fill some paper. So I filled the paper. He told me that it was, 22 my best recollection, is for the application for bail or 23 something of this. And I give all my detail, my financial 24 resources, my name, my address in France, different thing, okay? 25 Then after that, I went to the lobby, and there was a 0012 1 Saudi doctor, who made the front page at the time. He was also 2 there. And there was two Indian, okay? They were being charged. 3 Because I was very close to them, maybe from here to here, and 4 the FBI was saying that you have been indicted for an act of 5 terrorist or waging war or something like that, and he say that 6 he would write books. I said, "You are not going to sell a lot 7 of books in America with your story." 8 When they decided to send me back to -- to send me to 9 the judge for the first time, we went on the lift, and I was 10 expecting to see the judge. At this point, they have an order to 11 send me back to Brooklyn, so I never saw the judge. 12 I went back to Brooklyn. After a few day, again they 13 say, "You are going again for pretrial." Okay. So they send me 14 to the tribunal, and at this point, I was sent directly to the 15 tribunal, to the courtroom. And as I entered the courtroom, 16 there was already Mr. DuBoulay, lawyer Donald DuBoulay, who was 17 sitting in the rail, and he was waiting for me. So he said, "I 18 have been appointed. I've just received a phone call. There was 19 a sense of urgency. 20 So I sit down. I say, "I don't want a lawyer. I want 21 to speak for myself." 22 He say, "It's very administrative. It's very quick. 23 There's nothing going to happen here." 24 Okay. So he spoke with the judge, and I went back to 25 Brooklyn after. I'll try to summarize as much as I can. 0013 1 Then I was indicted -- no, then after I was put on a 2 material witness, again the same thing. I went to the judge, 3 DuBoulay was there, and they were talking and everything. There 4 I argue my case. I say that I was illegally arrested and I have 5 a visa and so on. I tried to explain myself. The record shows 6 that in a better manner. 7 So after that, I was indicted, okay? At this point, 8 before I was indicted, all the time when I was speaking with 9 Donald DuBoulay, I say that I want a Muslim lawyer, and I said I 10 didn't want to have a non-Muslim, because there would be no trust 11 at all. 12 He say, "You -- in the first place, you don't have 13 right of lawyer as of this moment," because I was on INS. So he 14 say, "You don't have a right to a lawyer." He say that the 15 government have appointed a lawyer for you because maybe the 16 media, the media know that you don't have a lawyer, they will 17 treat like you are some problem, and they say that they also want 18 to, maybe to propose things to you, but never -- anyway, he say 19 that it's just at the diligence of the government. I have no 20 rights when I was on INS. 21 So I said to DuBoulay that I want a Muslim lawyer. 22 Okay. He say, "At the moment, you don't have the right." He 23 say, "When you get on death penalty, you have right to two 24 lawyer." 25 So I say, "I want you to make known to the judge that I 0014 1 want at least one Muslim lawyer," and I said to him that there is 2 good cause for having one Muslim lawyer, because the case involve 3 the Muslim, and it involves somebody who is acquainted with the 4 Muslim environment, somebody who have knowledge of what is the 5 Muslim scene, the Mujahedin scene, what you call the terrorist 6 scene, somebody who is able quickly to understand what I am 7 talking about. 8 So he say that he will convey that message, but 9 unfortunately to me that there was nothing he could do. The 10 lawyer has been appointed. He told me there was lawyer Zerkin 11 and lawyer Dunham and lawyer MacMahon. Actually, he told me only 12 the name of Zerkin; that's all. 13 So I said that I didn't want them, because in first 14 place, again, I repeat myself, I didn't want a non-Muslim. 15 Okay. When I -- I was transferred -- I was waiting for 16 them in New York to come to the -- after I was indicted in New 17 York. (Arabic spoken.) 18 Wait a minute. When I was indicted to New York, I was 19 waiting for them to come to visit me, because I stayed for four 20 day. They didn't show up. Okay. I find it strange. I thought 21 that maybe they would be eager to immediately make contact with 22 me, but I made a mistake, because I clearly indicated that I 23 didn't want them. Later, later on, I regret this mistake. 24 So I arrive here, and I met them downstairs a few 25 minute before court, and I immediately told them that I wanted a 0015 1 Muslim lawyer. They told me, "You can't have one, because the 2 Court has appointed this lawyer to you, and, and there's nothing 3 you can do. Because they are appointed, you have no choice on 4 the religion of your lawyer." 5 They say, "But we can have a consultant, a Muslim 6 lawyer that we will hire," and he will work with you. 7 Okay. I say okay. Because what I wanted is to make a 8 contact with a Muslim person and to tell him like I told to 9 DuBoulay the name of two or three person I knew in America who I 10 trust to a certain degree, and they will be able to contact a 11 Muslim lawyer, that I will be confident that he's representing my 12 interest in the best manner. That's the only thing I wanted to 13 do: to meet a Muslim person so he can contact a Muslim cleric 14 who is in Oklahoma who I know and he will find a lawyer. 15 So -- this never happened anyway. 16 So they say they will do it. Okay. I was in a very 17 difficult position. I had all the United States people against 18 me, and I don't need to give detail, but I don't know if you can 19 even imagine. But anyway, I have to enter the situation, so I 20 decided to be patient, okay? 21 So after a few day making discussion with them and 22 everything, okay, it became apparent that it will be extremely 23 difficult to have even this basic understanding about how we are 24 going to work, okay? 25 So the first encounter was with Zerkin. Lawyer Zerkin, 0016 1 after not even a week, we have a very direct discussion where I 2 said to him that if he doesn't want to, to adapt, to follow the 3 guidance of my defense the way I want, according to my principle, 4 my belief, my understanding, and my religion, okay, he have to 5 make a professional judgment and withdraw from the case. He say 6 he can't. 7 So he went on holiday to France, and I told him, "When 8 you go to, on holiday to France, you can think about the matter, 9 and when you come back, you give me a clear answer." Okay. 10 Because the last thing I wanted is them doing what they want 11 according to their idea when they have no knowledge at all, 12 because they have no understanding of terrorism, Muslim, 13 Mujahedin. They have not any understanding. He has a few proof 14 here they stated themselves. Okay. 15 So me, I never confide, I never told them anything 16 about -- of substance. My name, my address, where I come from, 17 where I study, that's the kind of thing. And they state it in 18 the letter that I have here, okay? So there was no trust. It's 19 here as well. There was no trust relation between me and them. 20 So at first, MacMahon have a very relaxed attitude. He 21 say, "This is your defense, Mr. Moussaoui. We are here to help 22 you, okay, and we will do as you wish. You want to do this 23 according to Islam principle," so on and so forth, okay. Nice 24 talk. The same for Mr. Dunham. 25 But on January 30, the last day of the month, I 0017 1 believe, after like something of great importance, we have an 2 argument, a divergence of opinion about a tactical point, okay, 3 and Frank send them, MacMahon and Zerkin, to visit me, okay, to 4 clarify a situation. 5 When they came, they didn't discuss the point they were 6 supposed to discuss. They wanted to assert their right as a 7 lawyer to define the strategy and the tactic on the defense of my 8 life. So they said basically, "Mr. Moussaoui" -- because before 9 in a sense, I always told whatever I disagree with. They say, 10 "From now on, finished. We are going to do as we wish." 11 I say, "This is my life, and you have not any 12 understanding of the situation. You have no information. You 13 have nothing from the FBI. You have nothing, and you want to be 14 in charge." 15 He says, "We are the lawyer, and we are by statute or 16 whatever, we are in charge." 17 So I say, "So are you sure?" So I asked them three 18 time, because this is the manner of the Muslim, to assert 19 something, we used to -- we ask three time the same question. 20 And if he respond three time, it means that it's okay now. 21 So they say, "Yes. Indeed, we will just inform you, 22 inform you when we believe that it's important." Okay. 23 So I say, "If it's like that, I dismiss you. You are 24 not my lawyer anymore." And I have a letter who can show this. 25 They say, "We are not your lawyer. We are the lawyer 0018 1 of the Court." 2 Ah. They say yes. They say they are not my lawyer. 3 Okay. I have people who defend my life, and when I 4 tell them, "You are not my lawyer anymore," they say, "Yes, 5 indeed, we are the lawyer of the Court." That's good. 6 So, so here a simple example. I will jump, because 7 it's a very long story anyway. So I will jump to the moment I 8 send to you this letter requiring a phone call to talk to you, 9 and in here I say, as a decision relating to the death penalty 10 due to be made probably on Friday, could you arrange for me an 11 opportunity to call the U.S. District Judge, Leonie Brinkema, or 12 her office very quickly? I do not wish my lawyer to be informed 13 of this request. It's here. 14 So I wanted to talk to you in order to dismiss the 15 lawyer and to go pro se, because I came to understand that after 16 heavy disagreement, they have decided to sideline me and to do 17 what they wanted because I'm in jail, I knew nothing anyway, and 18 that's what transpired for that discussion, okay? 19 So at first, Frank Dunham didn't have this attitude. 20 He had a pragmatic attitude. He was saying that we don't have a 21 concrete reason to spat at the moment. Each time I disagreed, I 22 was able to show to him that my argument was well-founded, and 23 then he say, "Okay. Because it's well-founded, it's okay this 24 time." He say, "At the moment, I don't have really something 25 tell me, no, Mr. Moussaoui, I can't accept your judgment. Either 0019 1 you dismiss us or we do what we want." 2 That was the deal with Frank Dunham. 3 So he have this attitude, and for me, I could go along 4 with this, because I was waiting for this Muslim lawyer that they 5 said that they were looking for, and as well have the need that 6 my case was advancing, because time was ticking. So I was trying 7 to make patience. 8 But one day, Frank Dunham brought me a list of a 9 defense investigation, and this item on the list I have refused 10 before. I say no, no Muslim, no Muslim, no Muslim, okay, because 11 I didn't want them to interact with the Muslim, because with the 12 harassment campaign by the government, I didn't want to put 13 anybody that I knew on the spotlight, because any association 14 with me will be terrible for them. 15 So I say no, no, no. So at first in January, beginning 16 of January, they accept it. Then after, they came with the same 17 list, and they say, "We have to do this, Mr. Moussaoui. This is 18 compulsory under the AG (phonetic), the law, and blah, blah, 19 blah. 20 So I say to Frank Dunham, "This is -- you want the 21 confrontation, so I go pro se immediately." He say yes. Not 22 him. He was referring to Zerkin, and he was talking to McGrew 23 because I say this list has been drafted by Zerkin and McGrew. 24 He said yes. McGrew is an investigator. He didn't refer to 25 MacMahon. But, anyway, he say yes. 0020 1 The idea behind was that I will go pro se immediately 2 and you will probably order a mental health examination. And 3 they had made the mistake to tell them that I will not entertain 4 any discussion with people who advance theories that man is 5 driven by an incestuous desire toward his mother, meaning that's 6 the Freudian theory of psychiatry, so I have nothing to do with 7 this kind of people, to talk to them, so they knew that I was 8 somebody of very firm in his principle, I hope so, Inshallah, and 9 we knew that we have this disadvantage. 10 So I will come to you as pro se. You will say, 11 "Mr. Moussaoui, we have to examine you," and I will refuse, and 12 they will be appointed standby lawyer. 13 And then somehow I will be removed completely through, 14 for whatever means America decide. And you will see that I have 15 a few letter of opinion on this point. But anyway, that's not my 16 main point. If you believe that my main point that I didn't get 17 a Muslim lawyer, that's why I wanted the whole thing to be 18 stopped, that's not the case. There's a much stronger point, a 19 point that belong to you. 20 So I have a few letters that say that Mr. Moussaoui is 21 a very clever man, he's very intelligent, he's very educated. 22 That was the beginning of our relation. At the beginning, 23 Mr. Dunham and all of them would say: Mr. Moussaoui, you are 24 just fine. But then recently they started to say, basically to 25 smear me. 0021 1 But, anyway -- so I have a few letters of this. 2 So concerning the case, since the beginning, the case 3 have not advanced. Why? Two reasons. First, because I don't 4 say anything to them. And I have a letter to attest to this, 5 where they complain that you don't confide with us, and we are 6 not able to advance and so on. 7 Second, because the government didn't give them 8 anything until two weeks ago. So because I anticipate that you 9 will be saying that Mr. Moussaoui, the case is four months old 10 and now you come, okay, I have a very direct letter that attests 11 that Mr. Dunham say: Indeed, anything of substance about the 12 case, of the case, of Moussaoui case, we seem to be learning from 13 the press. At this point, at this point, we are reduced to asking 14 that if a document is leaked, at least leak one to us. 15 He was talking to Paul McNulty. 16 Second, I have a stronger document than this. It's an 17 ex parte application -- 18 THE COURT: Well, now, wait. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Those 19 ex parte applications -- 20 THE DEFENDANT: I'm not going to read the name or 21 anything. I'm just going to read -- I'm aware -- I've become 22 aware. I'm just reading the phrase that says that they don't 23 know nothing, there's no name, there's nothing, absolutely no 24 information that is under seal. I'm aware. 25 "As of today, we have not received a single document 0022 1 that relates in any way to any of the person alleged to be 2 hijacker on September 11, 2001. Not a single plane ticket, 3 flight manifest, car rental receipt, hotel, or other travel 4 document. We have no information regarding any of the events 5 relating to any of the hijacked plane. We have no intelligence 6 file relating, relating in any way to a single person alleged in 7 any way to be involved in this conspiracy." 8 Such information has been requested but has not yet 9 been produced. Okay. 10 "So in short" -- it's written -- "in short, we have 11 almost no discovery at this time but anticipate that an immense 12 volume of material is on the verge of production in this case, 13 leaving us with relatively limited period of time to analyze and 14 prepare that information of Mr. Moussaoui defense." 15 This letter is two weeks old. So this letter, this ex 16 parte is two weeks old. 17 I have the handwritten of Dunham, of Dunham, and it is 18 dated 4/11. So if somebody wanted to claim that the case, the 19 reality of the case is four months old, I will object strongly, 20 because this was supposed to be filed to you, and I show -- I'm 21 not showing -- it's United States of America, Zacarias Moussaoui, 22 under seal. I hide the name. 23 So that shows that the case is two weeks old. 24 But we didn't get the point yet. Let's make the other 25 point as well, because I never know if I will be in court again, 0023 1 now, so I will be quite clear. 2 (Arabic spoken.) 3 So this is a compound by your failure to trust -- 4 sorry. Here I'm dealing with the fact that I never confide with 5 them. I never give them any information. I was in a complete 6 state of mistrust with them since the beginning. And this letter 7 is dated February 25, okay, by the Public Defender, Federal 8 Defender Office, okay, and written by Frank Dunham, okay. 9 So I received the fact that we don't have -- anyway, 10 this is a compound by your failure to trust us up to this point 11 with information critical to your defense, meaning that I didn't 12 give them any information. 13 Here we go. "The government discovery in this case 14 will be so massive that no one person will be able to read and 15 digest it at all before trial." 16 Already he say that he's not capable of reading and 17 digesting the thing. That's why they decided to change the 18 approach in this case, to create a theory. They have decided to 19 create a theory to put it in the air. They say, "We are going to 20 create a theory, we will make it hang in the air, and the jury 21 will be confused. That's how you are going to save your life, 22 Mr. Moussaoui." 23 Thank you very much. 24 "You will have a trial team searching through the 25 literal haystack provided by the government, looking for the 0024 1 proverbial needle without knowing that it is, indeed, a needle 2 being looked for. Since you are not able to search through the 3 material yourself, given your condition of confinement, the 4 defense must do the search for you. 5 "I know, I know you know this. It is my strong hope 6 that at some point you will see the wisdom in confiding the 7 information which is vital to your defense to counsel." 8 So he attests that I never speak to them about 9 anything. I never did this anyway. 10 So let's go to the final point. So we have to go back 11 to New York, because all of this starts in New York, the all 12 great American game. 13 Mr. Moussaoui is not an indigent. Mr. Moussaoui, he 14 have more than $30,000 in the United States. He has at least 15 $25,000 in a bank account in Pan Am escrow, holding some money, 16 at least $6,000, this account today worth more than $1,000. 17 So Mr. Moussaoui, when he went to pretrial the first 18 time and he filled out this paper, if they went to process it, 19 they realized that they can't appoint a lawyer, because I have 20 the resources to hire my first lawyer. 21 So they say, Mr. Moussaoui, let's go back to jail. And 22 then we make Moussaoui direct to court, and, Mr. Moussaoui, we 23 understand this, because thanks to Mr. Reid, because they gave me 24 an article -- and I don't read much of newspaper, because they 25 are all lie, so I don't like to read much, but as he was a 0025 1 Muslim, I see Brother Reid, he came to in front of a judge and 2 the judge said to him: "Do you understand the charge?" 3 And he say "Yeah." 4 Reid -- Reid also asked for a court-appointed attorney. 5 So he asked for it. And he was asked -- it was brought 6 in front of a judge. And a judge make him understand that this 7 charge, and do you want a lawyer, because it's a right. 8 I never had the opportunity of this, because they sent 9 me back the second time. They brought me direct to court and 10 DuBoulay was standing and he say "I'm his lawyer." The judge 11 never asked me if I want, because they knew from the government, 12 from the mentality, if you want, I have that we never have one 13 like that. So they knew that I will ask for a Muslim lawyer, and 14 they will be -- I would like them to say that they didn't have 15 file on me about the kind of ideology I have and did not 16 anticipate that I would refuse a lawyer and especially a Jewish 17 lawyer. Okay? 18 So they knew this. So they manipulated the whole thing 19 in order to bring me direct to trial. But it didn't stop here, 20 because this right is, I believe, in your 14th Amendment. 21 Anyway, we will go there later on. 22 So the second time when I come to Virginia, the same 23 thing happened. I came to one judge first. What was the name of 24 the first judge? I don't even remember. He never told me his 25 name. 0026 1 So, anyway, I was brought here. And they rise and they 2 say: "We are the lawyer for Mr. Moussaoui," but, the judge -- I 3 was indicted. It was a new indictment in Virginia. I should be 4 asked: "Do you want a lawyer, Mr. Moussaoui? Because, 5 Mr. Moussaoui, you have $30,000." 6 But no, because the government doesn't want me to have 7 my own lawyer. They want me to have their civil servant 8 appointed lawyer, officer of the court, like they told me. 9 So I knew that under your, your law, the United States 10 law, the Supreme Court say under the due process clause of the 11 14th Amendment, criminal prosecution must comport with prevailing 12 notion of fundamental fairness. We have long anticipated this 13 standard of fairness to require that a criminal defendant be 14 afforded a meaningful opportunity to present a complete defense. 15 So after a court, Washington v. Texas, the right to 16 present a defense is a fundamental element of due process of law. 17 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Moussaoui, I'm giving you a 18 chance to speak, but I'm familiar with the law. 19 THE DEFENDANT: Yeah, but -- 20 THE COURT: Let me ask you what else -- you're asking 21 the Court this morning to let you fire these attorneys and 22 proceed pro se -- 23 THE DEFENDANT: No. 24 THE COURT: -- or to hire for yourself a Muslim 25 attorney. 0027 1 THE DEFENDANT: No. 2 THE COURT: Well, then tell me exactly what you're 3 asking for. 4 THE DEFENDANT: I'm asking you three things at least. 5 First of all, unless it will be proven to my satisfaction that I 6 will not be impeded in the future, I will make an appeal for the 7 old process, because since in the beginning, this process is 8 illegal under your law. I've never been asked it, this right 9 that I have under your law to decide if I wanted to be 10 represented by a lawyer, okay? That's the first element. 11 But I'm not necessary in a delaying tactic, wanting to 12 start everything from scratch. If it will be proven to me that 13 you will supply to me all the elements to prepare my own defense, 14 I will reconsider your offer, because the second point I will say 15 is they knew under the law they are supposed to give me my right. 16 They are supposed to inform me that the process, what happened to 17 me was not according to your law. They are in charge of this. 18 But because of the vested interest they have in 19 representing me, they have no -- they didn't want to do this. 20 Because the first thing when I come, they will say, 21 Mr. Moussaoui, the judge didn't do his job. The judge should 22 have asked you first if anywhere you indicated that, yes, you 23 want appointed lawyer. Then we enter the scene. And they knew 24 this from the beginning. The same thing for Mr. DuBoulay. 25 Because, of course, fame and money and so on and so forth. 0028 1 But that's not only this is. This endangered my life, 2 because, because of this, they know that I don't want them, that 3 I want a Muslim lawyer, they have put aside half of the case. 4 Half of -- the Muslim case, they don't want to deal with this. 5 If they can't deal, because as Mr. DuBoulay -- sorry, Mr. Dunham. 6 It's a mistake, it's not Mr. DuBoulay, it's Mr. Dunham -- say in 7 the newspaper apparently, apparently that he cannot send his 8 investigator, female investigator to Muslim country. That's only 9 an example. 10 And I know that people who could have provided vital 11 evidence for me will never, never speak to a non-Muslim because 12 they have the same kind of understanding in life than me. And it 13 was made clear to them that if they accepted the logic that the 14 case has two parts at least, one in America and one in the Muslim 15 environment. If they cannot navigate in the Muslim environment, 16 they have nobody of any Islamic understanding at this stage in 17 that team, four months, and they were contacted by the 18 association, a Muslim association, who proposed their service to 19 them. And they forget to phone back, he told me, Dunham. Then 20 after they said, "No, no they were too peace and love, they are 21 not your kind of Muslim." 22 But, anyway, that's only a side point. But to the 23 first point for me and to others also, in case that you will 24 dismiss the whole thing, I will fight on these three points: The 25 fact that I was never asked -- able to get my rights, to choose 0029 1 my own lawyer, because I had the financial means of this, okay, 2 and I'm innocent until proven guilty, okay, so even if the 3 government have blocked my money, I believe that they have no 4 right and this should be fought in court. 5 They say no. They say this is a civil matter. We 6 can't. And then after they say it, well, we have to wait until 7 the end of the trial. That was very -- we have a discussion 8 recently, because they open a bank account for me. They opened a 9 bank account for me, because I have $3,000 where I used to hold 10 in cash when I was arrested. And the government took it and give 11 them a check, okay? It was from the treasurer. So they wanted 12 me to buy my own law books. I have a letter here that says that 13 I requested a law book to defense pro se, and the dictionary, 14 Black dictionary, legal dictionary to understand more of the 15 judicial system. They said: "You have to buy it by your own 16 money. And, anyway, we are not sure that the sum will allow 17 you -- or allow them to give it to me." 18 So that's the point. Okay. 19 They have denied any effective assistance of lawyer. 20 They have misconducted themselves, because their interests, their 21 private interests in front of my interest, and the first one I 22 say, my right to choose. 23 THE COURT: All right. Let me first advise you that 24 you do have an absolute right under our law to be your own 25 attorney, to proceed pro se. You already know that. 0030 1 You do not have a right to pick and choose the lawyer 2 you want appointed for you. Therefore, that request cannot and 3 will not be granted. 4 THE DEFENDANT: I didn't make that request. 5 THE COURT: You have the right to hire an attorney at 6 your own expense of your own choice. However, in this type of 7 case where there are national security and classified documents, 8 you don't have totally unrestricted choice even if you have the 9 money available to hire an attorney, because the attorneys, as 10 you know, because you've seen a copy of it, have to be able to be 11 cleared to receive some of the information in this case, not all 12 of it, but some of it. 13 Now with those parameters, based upon what you have 14 said -- and I'm going to give your attorneys a second if they 15 want to respond to it -- you will be granted the request -- wait 16 a minute -- you will be granted the request to proceed without 17 these attorneys, but let me talk to them first. You'll get a 18 chance again. 19 THE DEFENDANT: No, just a very final point here. I do 20 not wish at all and I do not want you to refer to them as my 21 attorney. They are not my attorney. 22 THE COURT: I understand. 23 THE DEFENDANT: And this point is clear. And I do not 24 wish them to make any matter, any point of substance of the case. 25 If they want to refute whatever they want, that's fine. But they 0031 1 should not mention any strategy, the same way -- 2 THE COURT: These men will not. They're experienced 3 attorneys. 4 THE DEFENDANT: Yeah, yeah, I believe that they're 5 experienced. They're experienced in deception. 6 THE COURT: Have a seat. 7 All right, Mr. Dunham. 8 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, I'm going. 9 MR. DUNHAM: Well, Your Honor, if we were to address 10 this point by point, I think our view of things might be a little 11 different, but we do understand the lack of trust that the 12 individual has had in us from the beginning. We've tried hard to 13 earn it. 14 I think there are some things that should be addressed 15 with the Court, but I'm reluctant to do it in the presence of the 16 government, but the Court should know about the representational 17 issues. 18 THE COURT: Let me start, first of all, by going to the 19 motion that's before us right now about the SAM. We'll get back 20 to this other issue in a second, because some of this may make 21 things a little bit easier. 22 You have filed and the actual motion that's on the 23 docket this morning is the defendant's motion for relief from 24 conditions of confinement. And you had a series of issues that 25 you had complained about in that motion. 0032 1 My understanding, because, as you know, we sent some of 2 our staff with the marshal to the jail on Friday to check things 3 out so that we could see what was going on there, and it's our 4 understanding that many of the issues complained about have been 5 or are about to be resolved. 6 MR. DUNHAM: My understanding is that there is an 7 agreement with the government -- and Mr. Spencer can confirm 8 this -- that we have worked it out that Mr. Moussaoui will be 9 allowed to have a computer, a desk-top model, stand-alone, which 10 will be provided by the defense; that he can have a keyboard and 11 a mouse and a monitor to go with that computer. 12 Now, there will be a separate secure room at the jail. 13 They're installing power in the room at the present time, so it's 14 not available as we speak, but it will be available in short 15 order. Sheriff Dunning and the U.S. Marshal Clark were over 16 there Friday working on this. 17 The government has agreed to provide CD-ROMs with the 18 discovery material as it's made available. The defense will 19 provide copies of what we've already been given, and any new 20 production would be -- the CD-ROM would be given directly by the 21 government to Mr. Moussaoui. 22 Now I do want to comment here briefly with an editorial 23 comment that the pleading that Mr. Moussaoui read from was not 24 filed with the Court, because it was about to be and we got a 25 boatload of discovery just as we were about to turn it in, so it 0033 1 became moot. There was no point in making that representation at 2 that point in time. 3 Up to about April 11, what he read was correct, but we 4 got a load of discovery from the government, and it's coming 5 late, as we understand it, because they're taking the time to put 6 it on CD-ROM, which is the only way you can manage this stuff. 7 And so I wouldn't want the Court to think that we are of the -- 8 you know, we are a little bit captive to them, but we agreed to 9 go this CD-ROM route, and discovery was slower than we wanted, 10 and we were about to bring it to the Court's attention when 11 suddenly we got some. And it wasn't a fair representation at the 12 time. 13 Now I will allude to the telephone. We were concerned 14 about the privileged nature of attorney-client privileged calls, 15 because Mr. Moussaoui was -- his end of the call was constantly 16 being monitored by sheriff's deputies. They worked that out so 17 that a phone could be -- a headset at least could be run into his 18 cell and he'd be able to talk from inside his cell securely at 19 his end with us. 20 And while the telephone calls were going to be limited 21 to ten minutes each initially, because it was tying up a line 22 that they use in the ordinary course of business, the idea was in 23 about a month they'd have a second line there, and we would be 24 able to talk almost an unlimited basis by phone. 25 Third, our motion addressed the problem that his 0034 1 papers, papers we gave him and papers he returned to us, were 2 being searched by sheriff's deputies, and we really couldn't tell 3 whether they were reading them or not, but the report from 4 Mr. Moussaoui was they were certainly looking at them long enough 5 to have read them. 6 That was solved by an agreement that we can pass floppy 7 disks back and forth. He's got a computer with a keyboard. We 8 can give him a disk; he can give us disks. The sheriffs can 9 inspect the disks, but they don't need to stick them in a 10 computer. 11 So all of the issues in the case were resolved except 12 one, which was our efforts to try to arrange for a consultation 13 for Mr. Moussaoui with an individual by the name of John Doe, 14 whose name Mr. Moussaoui gave to us, and who we have interviewed 15 and who we have felt might have helped resolve some of the 16 problems that are apparent in what Mr. Moussaoui has presented to 17 the Court this morning. 18 On Friday afternoon, in an attempt to work this out 19 with Mr. Spencer, I offered to allow Christine Gunning, the court 20 security officer, to sit in on those conversations. And I had 21 previously discussed this with Mr. Moussaoui, and he didn't have 22 any objection to it. She would monitor the call. She would not 23 know who John Doe was, but if she heard anything untoward being 24 mentioned during the call that didn't sound like religious 25 consultation and the seeking of advice, she would be in a 0035 1 position to pull the plug on the call. 2 I was advised that she didn't have enough training in 3 al Qaeda matters to be a good smoke detector, so to speak, and so 4 I asked Mr. Spencer: "Well, who would you suggest?" And he told 5 me that everybody that they had that could possibly perform this 6 function is sitting on the wrong side of the firewall at the 7 present time, and there's nobody on the other side of the 8 firewall apparently that could fulfill this role. 9 But obviously it's the kind of help I think we could 10 have used earlier, and we might not be in the situation that 11 we're in at the present time. 12 Now I just want to point out that we have -- 13 Mr. Moussaoui has been aware of his Faretta rights since the 14 beginning of the representation and that his assertion of them 15 today comes somewhat of a surprise, but not as a total surprise, 16 to defense counsel. 17 We believe that the case is sufficiently complicated 18 such that even if he could get the $35,000 that he talks about in 19 his bank account which has been frozen by the President of the 20 United States, even if he could get that money, it's nowhere near 21 what this defense effort is going to cost. 22 I mean, I have been struggling for weeks with the 23 budget for this defense, and without going into the numbers, you 24 know, there are not many people in America that could afford the 25 defense that he's going to need in order to have an effective 0036 1 defense in this case. 2 There are other things that I would want to talk about, 3 but I'm not going to rebut Mr. Moussaoui here openly in court in 4 front of the government point by point, except to say that we 5 have tried as hard as we can to work with him in a reasonable 6 manner, and apparently that is not going to work. 7 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dunham, as you know, there 8 was some time ago a motion filed by the United States, I think 9 Mr. Zerkin actually responded to it, asking whether the defense 10 was going to defend on any kind of a mental health issue. And, 11 of course, they wanted notification about that. 12 In your dealing with the defendant, as an experienced 13 attorney, is there any reason in your opinion or in the opinion 14 of your co-counsel to believe that the defendant is in any 15 respect suffering from any mental illness that would make this 16 decision on his part to give up his current counsel, in any way 17 cloud the voluntariness or knowing aspect of such a decision? 18 MR. DUNHAM: I am -- this defendant has been in 19 solitary confinement for a substantial period of time, and during 20 the course of that -- with lights on 24 hours a day -- 21 THE COURT: That, by the way, as you know, is being 22 also somewhat ameliorated. 23 MR. DUNHAM: That's being ameliorated, but to say that 24 that has had no effect on him would not be a correct statement. 25 I mean, I can't tell what the effect is, but I have 0037 1 seen the difference in the gentleman during the course of the 2 representation, so I would be -- I'm not a psychiatrist or a 3 psychologist, you know, I'm not in a position to render an 4 opinion, but if you were to ask me could I say with 100 percent 5 certainty that he's absolutely clear and mentally sound, I 6 couldn't say that. I have some concerns in that regard. 7 We -- our position was going to be we weren't going to 8 raise it in connection with the penalty phase if we ever got 9 there in this case, because that is a delicate decision that has 10 to be made because of the things it opens up the door for the 11 government to say and do in that phase of the case. 12 You might have a person with mental health problems in 13 a death penalty case where you would never raise those mental 14 health problems in a punishment part of the case, because of what 15 it opens the door for the government to do. 16 So the issue of this gentleman's competency, in my 17 view, had not reached the point where we were going to ask the 18 Court to have an examination for him, for example, for purposes 19 of participating in his own defense, understanding the charges 20 against him, or as a defense to the charges themselves, but I do 21 believe that under Faretta, a competency inquiry is warranted 22 before the motion to proceed pro se should be granted. 23 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Spencer, does the United 24 States want to be heard on this issue? And the issue is twofold. 25 One, of course, is the first one that is right before us right 0038 1 now is the issue about whether a competency evaluation ought to 2 be done at this point to ensure that this waiver is a knowing and 3 voluntary waiver. 4 And, secondly, I'd also like you to address the issue 5 about the John Doe situation. 6 MR. SPENCER: Excuse me, Your Honor. Can Mr. Karas 7 address the John Doe situation? 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. SPENCER: And on the Faretta, on the question of 10 competency, Your Honor, we've had no contact with the defendant, 11 obviously. And we have no way of making the same judgment. Out 12 of an abundance of caution, I see no objection to having a 13 competency evaluation done in Alexandria on a quick time 14 schedule. And it may give the Court some peace of mind in 15 allowing him to go forward pro se. 16 THE COURT: All right. Do you want to address the John 17 Doe situation? 18 MR. KARAS: As Your Honor knows from the papers that we 19 submitted, we have deep concerns about permitting Mr. Moussaoui 20 to speak to somebody who is refusing to be vetted as would 21 normally be required by the restrictions. 22 The restrictions are based on really years of 23 investigative experience with respect to al Queda and what it is 24 that it trains its members and associates to do, even when 25 they're in prison. And one of the things that it constantly 0039 1 seeks to do as an organization is to monitor the court 2 proceedings against those who have been charged with being 3 members or subjects of al Queda to learn what it is the 4 government knows or more importantly doesn't know about what al 5 Queda is doing. That includes monitoring the press clippings on 6 any court proceedings as well as court documents. 7 And one of the primary purposes behind the special 8 administrative measures, Your Honor, is to make sure that 9 Mr. Moussaoui or any al Queda member or associate doesn't have 10 the opportunity to pass on messages, subtly coded messages to 11 individuals who could pass on other messages to his cohorts on 12 the outside. 13 The procedure that is in place is not to deny 14 Mr. Moussaoui the access to individuals who might assist in his 15 defense but to put into place some sort of mechanism that allows 16 us to be sure that what the person is doing is actually helping 17 Mr. Moussaoui and not hurting the government and the national 18 security in the ongoing war against al Queda. 19 And the proposal on the table really undermines the 20 very purpose of the SAM. It just eliminates the purpose of the 21 SAM, because what it does is under the theory that's been 22 presented by the defense, anybody including, as we mentioned, Bin 23 Laden or somebody who might be sympathetic to al Queda, unknowing 24 to defense counsel, would have an opportunity to speak to Mr. 25 Moussaoui, and even in a situation where Ms. Gunning might be 0040 1 listening in on a telephone conversation, in addition to the 2 concerns that Mr. Dunham raised, the other concern that we have 3 is that it would require 100 percent vigilance. And human error 4 being what it is, Your Honor, even one message could be something 5 that could be fatal. 6 So all that we ask is that John Doe go through the same 7 vetting procedure that other individuals who would see Mr. 8 Moussaoui would go through, and then we can determine whether or 9 not any additional restrictions are in place. At this point 10 we're not saying he can't go in. He's saying he doesn't want to 11 be vetted. 12 And Mr. Moussaoui doesn't have a right to an individual 13 of his choosing to speak to about his case. There's no right 14 whatsoever in the Constitution that gives him that opportunity. 15 And we think that given the grave security concerns, that there 16 really is an alternative that satisfies these concerns and at the 17 same time we think that protecting these concerns doesn't 18 compromise any recognized constitutional right. 19 THE COURT: My understanding is that once the 20 vetting -- if the vetting were done and the person were cleared, 21 if this person is coming in as a cleric, for example, then there 22 would not be any intrusion in the conversation between them. 23 MR. KARAS: That's correct, Your Honor. In fact, my 24 understanding is that the prison officials have cleared an imam 25 to visit with Mr. Moussaoui, and that is something that would 0041 1 take place without any government supervision or monitoring. 2 I would say that there was an issue with the individual 3 that required us to perhaps suggest additional restrictions be 4 put in place. We could address those when it's ripe. But right 5 now we don't know anything about the individual to even make that 6 assessment. 7 THE COURT: Mr. Spencer. 8 MR. SPENCER: May I address several practical 9 considerations within the competency evaluation, if the Court's 10 going to go down that road? 11 THE COURT: Yes. Let me finish with this motion first 12 of all. The defendant's motion for relief -- 13 MR. DUNHAM: Your Honor, I'm sorry. 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MR. DUNHAM: Can I just respond to one thing he said? 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 MR. DUNHAM: The problem is that Islamic scholars are 18 not fungible, just like Protestant clerics are not fungible. You 19 have different sects, different beliefs, different organizations 20 under the heading Protestant. Even under the heading Catholic or 21 Jewish, you have different sects or segments. 22 This gentleman we've identified is somebody that we 23 believe Mr. Moussaoui would listen to and is somebody who I 24 believe would give him the advice that I think he needs, because 25 I've met with the gentleman. 0042 1 So just to say that the jail's got a cleric doesn't 2 solve the particular problem here. I understand the government's 3 security needs, and I understand the dilemma that it puts 4 everybody in, but I don't think that if you have Christine 5 Gunning listening to the call, that there are going to be a lot 6 of coded messages. 7 THE COURT: Well, based on the track record in this 8 case and the representations that the United States has made and 9 the allegations and that there's probable cause at this point to 10 believe that the allegations are true, that's all there is is 11 probable cause, but that means that it's not an irrational 12 inference to believe that there may be truth to these comments, 13 makes it too dangerous to allow unfettered access. 14 Now again, this is one of those situations where the 15 whole problem or most of the problem can go away if John Doe 16 changes his or her mind. And if the advice of that person is so 17 critical to the well-being of Mr. Moussaoui and Mr. Moussaoui's 18 case, you need to urge that person to change his opinion, 19 apparently -- change his opinion and to go through the vetting 20 process. 21 If that person is unwilling to do so, there's nothing 22 this Court is going to do to change the situation. 23 All right, Mr. Moussaoui, you can go back up there for 24 a second. Now we're simply addressing the John Doe issue right 25 now. 0043 1 THE DEFENDANT: Yes. I'm addressing the John Doe issue 2 because this motion doesn't represent what was my concern in my 3 situation. Because I told them that, first of all, I didn't want 4 to cry to the United States. I didn't want to talk about light 5 and everything and door banging and everything, because this is a 6 normal condition of a prisoner. And I said to them that I know 7 brother were in far worse situations than me, so not at all. 8 And I can entertain this by this document I drafted to 9 them, I proposed to them as a base for discussion. And it is 10 here. There is nothing else, condition, light on, and 11 everything. 12 By the way, the only thing that was really annoying me 13 was the lack -- because I have no window. It's not even 14 mentioned in the document, okay? So that's the kind of care. 15 In fact, this motion had been drafted to bring this 16 point that the situation is very difficult for Mr. Moussaoui and 17 he's under an oppressive condition, because they sense this, they 18 could see me wanting to go pro se because I was becoming more 19 pressing on the requiring books, different elements of the trial 20 transcript, and I was asking more and more elements. And you 21 could very much see that this person was going to go pro se soon, 22 okay? 23 So that's the reason -- -- and me, why I did this, 24 because that was the only way I could have access to the Court 25 without them anticipate this well in advance to have a very 0044 1 well-organized campaign, I would say, to smear me, to come to you 2 and say, "we are concerned about Mr. Moussaoui," and this and 3 that. 4 If I give them a head start, they will have been able 5 to engineer this in a much better manner. So I accepted this 6 motion not for what is inside the motion, only to talk about 7 indeed the condition of confinement, would prevent me to go pro 8 se in a fair and free manner. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 THE DEFENDANT: And the second point that he have 11 addressed here, he say that he have some concern for me and 12 especially because of the new condition. 13 Here you have a letter that is dated on the 29 March 14 where he say to the chief intelligence and investigative 15 operation of the Criminal Division, he say, Mr. Moussaoui 16 given -- at no time have Mr. Moussaoui given any indication that 17 he would assault counsel, and he has conducted himself at all 18 times in a nonthreatening, peaceful manner, okay? Not in an 19 erratic manner, nothing mentioned. That's one thing. 20 Concerning mental health, we had a meeting last week, 21 and we discussed this. We discussed the strategy. They said 22 that the benefit of using mental health -- very quickly. And 23 then I told them basically the same thing, that I wasn't going to 24 have mental test. And they said that at the moment we didn't see 25 any reason for me to have one. And I have it in a hand-draft 0045 1 letter by -- written by lawyer Zerkin, who say Zacarias 2 Moussaoui, by counsel, state that he has no intention to 3 introduce any mental health testimony at the guilt or penalty 4 phase of the trial. 5 So one week ago, they didn't insist, say no, 6 Mr. Moussaoui, this is so crucial for us, okay? They came to 7 give me one story. 8 But thank you to the government, through its memoranda 9 for the mental health, its motion, I took -- I got the 10 information that, in fact, indeed they wanted to introduce some 11 information. 12 So this is a very unfair way to proceed, because they 13 are claiming something one day and are doing something another 14 day. 15 So the last thing I want to address, that this motion, 16 I rejected the motion, okay, what is inside the memorandum. I 17 accept the motion but not the memorandum. The memorandum should 18 be taken from what I will draft, I would send to the Court in due 19 time, because I will address this issue. And I will go further 20 than the condition of the SAM in my, in my draft, because I want 21 just to be able to get the information. 22 I do not want to meet inmates. I do not want to have 23 contact with people outside. I want to study my case. I want to 24 defend my life. And I didn't ask them to say about things they 25 talk about in the case, in this motion, okay? 0046 1 So the government should relax. And I have no 2 intention to speak with John Doe or John X, okay? John Doe was a 3 door for me to access you. When they say that we will do this, I 4 said okay, because I wanted to give a letter, this letter, send 5 it to you, and then the thing will start, okay? 6 But you have the intention to sideline me because you 7 already ask if he is still talking as my lawyer. That will be 8 fine, because you are in charge, but the record will show that I 9 have nothing to do with them. 10 And second thing, they have no knowledge of the case on 11 my side, okay, a nonvital piece, as they recognize in the letter 12 that I have here. Okay? I know what are my activity inside 13 United States, abroad, in Britain, in everywhere I was. They 14 have no knowledge. They want what they want. It's a short case, 15 where they will be in court, then Mr. Zerkin will just fight for 16 death or no death. Because the guilt already is conceded, if I 17 read the different newspaper -- piece of newspaper. 18 So I do not want them, because I do not believe they 19 have my best interests. They have shown direct hostility. 20 Mr. Dunham have used a rude word against me on three occasions 21 already, okay? 22 So I have no intention to have these people in any 23 manner to defend me. 24 THE COURT: All right. All right, Mr. Moussaoui, stay 25 there for a second. Let me explain to you that as I said 0047 1 earlier, you have a right if I'm satisfied that you're doing this 2 in a knowing and voluntary manner to represent yourself, but I 3 have to warn you, as intelligent as you are, and you're obviously 4 a very smart man, and you're able to read American law books and 5 glean from some of the rulings, but I have to tell you that the 6 American legal system is complicated. An ordinary person or even 7 a very bright ordinary person who walks into court and tries to 8 defend himself -- and I've had many other cases, including 9 capital cases, with defendants who have acted pro se. 10 You will have to follow the rules of law and procedure 11 of this Court. You said, for example, that in your culture, you 12 have to ask a question three times, and if the answer is the same 13 three times, it flies. Well, in this Court, you get to ask it 14 once. 15 THE DEFENDANT: (Arabic spoken.) 16 THE COURT: Just as an example of the cultural 17 difference, you are in a United States court. 18 Now if you can conduct yourself in accordance with the 19 rules and procedure of this Court, then assuming I have found 20 that this is a knowing and voluntary waiver under a right to be 21 represented by counsel, you can proceed pro se. That is your 22 right. 23 But the right is forfeited if you don't follow the 24 rules. And the rules are complicated. And so the normal 25 practice -- and apparently Mr. Dunham explained that to you -- is 0048 1 that even when a person goes pro se, especially in a capital 2 case, the Court will continue to have as standby counsel 3 experienced lawyers who are there to help you if at some point 4 you realize you're in over your head. 5 And I am not going to therefore excuse these attorneys 6 who already have invested a great deal of time and effort, who 7 have retained people to work on your behalf, from this case 8 entirely. 9 Now it's your decision. If you don't want to talk to 10 them, you proceed at your own risk. But I am not going to permit 11 you to be in a court of law without any legal resources 12 whatsoever. 13 Now, if you're able to hire an attorney for yourself, 14 that could change the dynamic. And you have that right. And I'm 15 sure that these attorneys would help you -- 16 THE DEFENDANT: No. 17 THE COURT: -- in doing that. 18 That's your decision. But I'm not going to grant your 19 motion quite yet to go pro se until I've had an expert in 20 psychiatry talk with you just for this record. 21 I will say that from what I've seen in court today, you 22 appear to know and understand what you're doing. As I said, you 23 are very bright. You do come from a different cultural 24 background and tradition, and you need to be careful to 25 understand that in this court, you've got to follow these rules. 0049 1 And if you start citing to authorities or practices 2 that are not in conformance with what happens in an American 3 court, you will be stopped. All right? 4 I'll try to arrange for the visit as soon as possible. 5 And at this point, therefore, unless the doctor comes up with 6 something, I will find on this record that this is a knowing and 7 intelligent waiver of counsel, but I am not releasing counsel 8 from this case, because it would be impossible for this man to, 9 in my view, defend himself at this point without some legal 10 resources. 11 Now, you are going to be getting access through the 12 Alexandria Jail, which has gone through extraordinary efforts to 13 try to accommodate you, to have a second room available for you 14 where you will have a computer, you will have access to the 15 CD-ROMs under certain controls and within the security needs of 16 the jail. Very few, if any, prisoners have ever had that kind of 17 access. 18 You will be able to mount a defense. And if you are 19 wise, you will use what resources -- you can pick and choose what 20 you want to use from these attorneys, but if you choose to do 21 nothing with them, that's also your choice. But they're going to 22 be sitting in this courtroom throughout the trial proceedings 23 just in case, unless you have a different attorney who has been 24 retained. 25 You don't have a right to pick and choose a 0050 1 court-appointed attorney. 2 THE DEFENDANT: First of all -- 3 THE COURT: Well, now, I've ruled. When I rule, that's 4 it. If you disagree with my ruling, when the case is over, you 5 take an appeal to the Fourth Circuit. That's how the trial will 6 be conducted, too. 7 When I make a ruling, it's no different for you than 8 any other attorney. If the government disagrees with what I've 9 said, they know they have to live with it through the course of 10 the proceeding. And then down the road, there's a chance to have 11 that reviewed. 12 You may have a seat now, Mr. Moussaoui. 13 In terms then of the defendant's motion for relief from 14 conditions of confinement, that motion is denied as moot in my 15 view, as to all conditions complained about except the John Doe, 16 and it's denied as to that. As I said, the John Doe situation is 17 completely remedial as long as the individual wants to be vetted. 18 Now there are a couple of other what I will call 19 administrative matters that we need to get addressed and even 20 with the potential change of counsel's situation is going to have 21 to be addressed. 22 First is the juror questionnaire. I assume, counsel, 23 you've been working on that. I know the government, and I don't 24 know whether the defense got a copy of a questionnaire we used in 25 the Wills case. I'm going to set Friday, May 31st, as the 0051 1 deadline for proposed juror questionnaire from each side. 2 I'm going to direct that you submit the questionnaire 3 to the Court on CD-ROM -- on a disk, rather, so that we can take 4 a look at it. 5 I would expect that the Court will go through both 6 proposed questionnaires, and we will determine the final 7 questions that are going to go on it. But that needs to be done 8 in -- sufficiently in advance of the pulling together of the 9 jury. 10 So that everyone can have it on their calendars, we are 11 proposing to have the jury pool brought in on Tuesday, September 12 17. As I indicated previously, the jurors will fill out the 13 questionnaire under court supervision at one time. That's the 14 best way of getting 100 percent return. 15 And then the plan is that you will be getting copies. 16 We are going to use a, obviously, an anonymous jury, but you will 17 be getting copies of all the questionnaires and have 18 approximately four or five days to go over the questions. We're 19 going to do what I did in my last case, which is basically a desk 20 audit of the questionnaires; that is, the first review of 21 proposed jurors will be conducted by going over the 22 questionnaire. 23 Each side will be allowed to indicate which jurors they 24 want stricken and for what reasons. My experience is that a 25 certain percentage of the proposed jurors both sides will agree 0052 1 that they want stricken. And, therefore, I will strike them 2 without ever going beyond that. 3 There may be others where one side or the other is 4 pointing to a particular answer that they feel makes that juror 5 unqualified. And I may determine that that's sufficient on 6 simply the responses or go ahead and let that juror come in for 7 personal voir dire. It depends on the particular questions. 8 That worked very well in the Wills case, and that's what I intend 9 to do, something along those lines, here. 10 And then, as we indicated before, the actual voir dire 11 will begin in late September on the date that we previously had 12 given to you-all. That's the proposed plan right now. 13 The other issues are that I want to make sure both 14 sides know that if either side files a pleading ex parte under 15 seal, the Court is not going to require a separate sealing order. 16 That caption is sufficient in my view to permit that matter to be 17 filed under seal ex parte. 18 I review every filing, and if I determine that there 19 really is no reason why it should not be part of the public 20 record, I'll let you know. But that will shorten the number of 21 orders that you have to submit to the Court. 22 There was an issue raised informally by defense counsel 23 about civilian clothing for Mr. Moussaoui. The U.S. Marshal's 24 Service will not be providing civilian clothing for Mr. Moussaoui 25 to attend to simply motions hearings of this sort. Obviously, 0053 1 for the trial, he will have the right to be in civilian clothing. 2 That can be taken care of at the trial time, but not before then. 3 Now, are there any other issues, Mr. Spencer, first of 4 all, from the United States, that you want the Court to address 5 since we're together at this time? 6 MR. SPENCER: I just had some practical considerations 7 for any evaluation, competency evaluation the Court is going to 8 order. 9 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 10 MR. SPENCER: First of all, I take it that the expert 11 is going to be court-appointed? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 MR. SPENCER: And a copy of any report generated will 14 be provided to the government? 15 THE COURT: That's the normal practice, although, 16 again, the only issue here is going to be competency to make this 17 decision about waiving counsel. That's what I ruled. 18 MR. SPENCER: Your Honor, I see this as just a strict 19 Butner competency evaluation without the transportation and the 20 time down to Butner. 21 THE COURT: I would agree with that. 22 MR. SPENCER: All right. And then -- so I'm presuming, 23 Your Honor, that the effect on the motions schedule, particularly 24 the death penalty motions coming up, the filing May 1st, it will 25 have no effect on that. 0054 1 THE COURT: That is correct. I'm holding the motion in 2 abeyance. I'm ruling on that in abeyance until I've made a 3 determination for certain that the defendant is not making the 4 decision under any kind of mental duress or mental infirmity that 5 might cloud it for purposes of voluntariness. 6 MR. SPENCER: Finally, Your Honor, just for purposes of 7 the record, we move that these counsel be retained as standby 8 counsel if the defendant chooses to go pro se. I take it that's 9 the Court's ruling on that? 10 THE COURT: That's been our practice. I mean, again, 11 given the experience of these attorneys, even though 12 Mr. Moussaoui doesn't appreciate it, he has a, he has an 13 extremely experienced set of attorneys working for him. 14 As I said, they've retained experts already in various 15 areas, and the only way he could even begin to have a fair 16 defense is to have access to those resources. If he chooses not 17 to do so, that's his decision, but the Court's obligation is to 18 make them available for him, and that's what we're going to do. 19 So you can just make it as an oral motion. I'm 20 granting that at this point. 21 Again, that may change. As I said, if he retains 22 counsel, that changes things. 23 MR. SPENCER: I understand, Your Honor. 24 THE COURT: That hasn't happened at this point. 25 All right. Is there anything else? 0055 1 MR. SPENCER: No, thank you, Your Honor. 2 THE COURT: All right. Just one last thing. It hasn't 3 happened yet and I don't know what the status is going to be. I 4 understand that the House of Representatives is, is on the verge 5 perhaps of passing its version of Senator Allen's bill. Is your 6 office going to take responsibility for coordinating the offsite 7 viewings with the victims and that sort of thing? I see 8 Ms. Spinks is here today. 9 Is your victims unit going to be in charge of that or 10 do you expect that's going to be out of Main Justice? 11 MR. SPENCER: I expect that to be out of Main Justice, 12 but I don't actually know the answer to that question. 13 THE COURT: All right. That's another logistical issue 14 we're going to be needing to address, I suspect, in the next 15 couple weeks. That's not quite ripe yet, but it's out there. 16 All right. Is there anything else? 17 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, may I consult with 18 Mr. Dunham one second? There's one additional matter. 19 THE COURT: Just one second, Mr. Moussaoui. 20 MR. MAC MAHON: Just one second, Your Honor, excuse me. 21 MR. DUNHAM: Your Honor, I do need to bring a couple of 22 things to the Court's attention in dealing with the Faretta 23 issue. 24 THE COURT: Yes, sir. 25 MR. DUNHAM: There are CIPA issues in the case, and 0056 1 Mr. Moussaoui probably will not be granted a clearance. 2 THE COURT: Which is another reason, I should put that 3 on the record, why having standby counsel who are cleared to 4 receive that type of information is going to be important. 5 While I've got you both here, it will help the Court 6 and will move things faster if counsel can send us some names of 7 psychiatrists you've used recently in this area for these types 8 of forensic evaluations, because I want to get this done as 9 quickly as possible. 10 MR. DUNHAM: Your Honor, I also would suggest that the 11 psychiatrist needs to be given a briefing, I believe, by counsel 12 as to the issues in the case, because -- and the complexity 13 involved, because the determination of competency has something 14 to do with the competency to handle this case. And, you know, 15 it's a little more complicated than perhaps the Wills case was, 16 and I do think that that -- the psychiatrist needs to look at it 17 against that framework. 18 And so I would suggest that we'll submit some names and 19 maybe we can give them some observations that we have before they 20 conduct the examination. 21 THE COURT: Here's what I suggest. The fastest and 22 best way of doing this is for you and Mr. Spencer with the 23 government team and the defense team to get together, draft, if 24 you can for us, an order with the guidelines that you want, if 25 you can come to an agreement on that. 0057 1 As I said, I'm not granting the defendant's motion yet, 2 so you're still, until I've granted it, the attorneys 3 representing him. We want to get this matter resolved quickly, 4 all right? 5 MR. DUNHAM: So that brings up another question. Your 6 Honor had addressed the jury questionnaire due on May 31, as if 7 we were the ones that were responsible for filing it. And what 8 I'm going to assume is that until we receive an order granting 9 Mr. Moussaoui's motion, we will continue to do the things on the 10 deadlines that the Court has set. 11 THE COURT: That's correct. 12 MR. DUNHAM: But once that motion is granted, I would 13 assume that we are relieved from doing those things, such as 14 filing motions in the case and filing jury questionnaires, if you 15 decide that before May 31st, and that it will be Mr. Moussaoui's 16 obligation to fulfill those requirements. 17 THE COURT: You'll be required to turn over to him any 18 drafts that you've worked on. And I'm still going to require if 19 you stay in, if you wind up becoming standby counsel, I'm still 20 going to require that you make efforts to communicate with the 21 defendant about some of these deadlines and what he has to do. 22 He can choose to reject it and then proceeds at his own 23 risk, but yes, we'll proceed that way. 24 MR. DUNHAM: All right. And then I guess the last 25 thing that I wanted to mention was, Your Honor, on this -- oh, 0058 1 you said work out the details with Mr. Spencer. We'll try to do 2 that. 3 THE COURT: Right. 4 MR. DUNHAM: We are concerned about just having the raw 5 report go to the government in the event there is material in 6 there that should remain privileged until trial. So we'll work 7 that out with the government. 8 THE COURT: One way of doing it is having it submitted 9 to the Court for an ex parte review. If I find that parts of the 10 report have to be redacted to make sure there's no issue, we can 11 do that. 12 MR. DUNHAM: Thank you, Your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Is there anything further? 14 THE DEFENDANT: Yes. 15 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Moussaoui, I'll let you have 16 the last word. Go ahead. 17 Don't say anything yet. We have to change paper. 18 Go ahead, sir. 19 THE DEFENDANT: Concerning the so-called test of 20 competency, I have to say that, according to my information, it 21 is to assure such a presentation so that the record will 22 establish that he knows, the defendant, what he's doing and the 23 choice he's making with eye open. And his technical and legal 24 knowledge as such is not relevant, okay? 25 So my ability to try the case is not really what is in 0059 1 question in the competency, competency information. Because we 2 have in this case very, very different approach. And it's 3 impossible to have two teams trying the same case, because they, 4 for example, okay, they want to try by jury. And me, I want to 5 try by a judge. Because of all of information and the complexity 6 of the case make it, make it very, very difficult for a simple 7 person to comprehend in a very short time, and a judge -- 8 THE COURT: Let me stop you. You want to waive a trial 9 by jury? 10 THE DEFENDANT: Yes. Okay? And I've been thinking of 11 this since the beginning, because the complexity of the case make 12 it that very -- you have to collate information and be able to 13 understand concepts very quickly, and this is not very easy for a 14 simple person. And the only person who can grasp this kind of 15 thing is maybe a judge, okay? 16 So I was thinking for long time, because I was reading 17 the transcript of embassy bombing and everything, everything is 18 in my cell, and I discovered that the government just overwhelmed 19 the Court of information and the people just naturally lose track 20 of what has been said. And at the end, they just are lost, and 21 it's just a question of feeling you become, okay? 22 But the judge can see through the trick of the 23 government and will be able to assess the validity of the 24 argument. And also you will have documents to be able to see, to 25 see this contradiction during the first day to the tenth day, 0060 1 because inside the transcript I show to them contradiction during 2 the trial. 3 THE COURT: All right. Now, Mr. Moussaoui, stop for 4 just one second. 5 Each side in a criminal case has a right to trial by 6 jury. You can't waive the jury on your own. The United States 7 would have to agree with that. That's something down the road 8 that both sides may want to think about, whether it's even 9 possible in a capital case; we haven't looked at yet. 10 Mr. Zerkin, do you know from your experience? 11 MR. ZERKIN: It is indeed possible. 12 THE COURT: In a federal capital case? 13 MR. ZERKIN: Yes, ma'am, a jury can be waived. 14 THE COURT: For both phases? 15 MR. ZERKIN: For both phases, that's correct. 16 THE COURT: Well, that's something that can be 17 discussed and thought about down the road. Obviously, it would 18 change the dynamics of much of this trial. 19 But that is such a serious decision, Mr. Moussaoui, I'm 20 not going to at this point accept this. You need to think about 21 that very carefully. And, again, that's an issue that has 22 nothing to do with the things that you're disputing with your 23 attorneys. You should talk to them about that. 24 But -- wait. But even if you have come to the decision 25 that you want to waive the jury, the United States, if they want 0061 1 a trial by jury, has an absolute right to require -- to request 2 that. And the Court can waive a jury only if both sides agree, 3 all right? So that's what you need to understand. 4 THE DEFENDANT: I understand your point. The second 5 thing concerning the appointment standby counsel. The standby 6 counsel's role is exactly to inform, okay, to inform the 7 defendant pro se on procedure, to relieve the judge of the need 8 to explain the way the Court works, but here what is happening, 9 what you're doing is having them -- appointing them as my lawyer 10 and going -- making investigation on their own, okay, and this 11 will interfere tremendously. 12 I have a very quick example, okay? I know already that 13 they want to develop a line of argument -- 14 THE COURT: Well, I don't really think you should do 15 that. 16 THE DEFENDANT: This is my defense. I have long time, 17 four months to evaluate this kind of thing, okay? So they want 18 to talk to Mr. Attas, okay? They want to make him pass like he 19 have been cooperating in fact with the government. And all these 20 statements are not correct. And I have been opposing this, 21 because if this person is a truthful person, even if his 22 statements are harmful in a sense for me, I was not inclined to 23 demonize or to vilify or whatever somebody just because it suits 24 me, but they have a completely different set of principles. 25 For them, it was to approach Attas to make him believe 0062 1 that he will be a friendly witness and then to turn against him, 2 okay? And then saying that, in fact, because you have similar 3 profile with Mr. Moussaoui, you are from the Middle East and you 4 are also, of course, an Arab and you also are kind of 5 fundamentalist, okay, you find your way out of the case by giving 6 information to the government. And I oppose this. This is only 7 an example. 8 So it is impossible in practice to have them going 9 freely all over the world and trying to meet people that I know 10 and they have -- and trying to do things that I'm against. And I 11 know that can damage my own preparation. 12 THE COURT: All right. That can be -- 13 THE DEFENDANT: And I can, I can hire my lawyer to only 14 help me in the procedure. 15 What you are proposing, that them, after four months, 16 you tell me try to work with them. I've been trying for four 17 months, okay? And now you say carry on. Me, what I want is the 18 ability to hire counsel that will inform me on the matter of 19 procedure, okay. You will tell me how to come and draft a motion 20 properly according to United States law and you tell me how to 21 even, let's say, adjust my presentation to the requisites of 22 United States law. 23 And, by the way, I'm born in France, educated -- I have 24 a master's degree in international business. I'm fully 25 acquainted with western system of justice, okay? I never live in 0063 1 the Middle East country or in Arabic country, okay? So I think 2 that the conception that I'm completely ignorant of the rule of 3 western system of justice and Anglo-Saxon, because I live in 4 London, okay, it's not correct. I'm fully aware, okay, of the 5 western system of justice and so on. 6 So what you were proposing, in fact, is impractical, 7 and you will damage my defense and ultimately my chance to live. 8 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Moussaoui. 9 THE DEFENDANT: And I want to have immediately the 10 right to make an appeal and the information to address this 11 right, because it's only to return to the cell and wait two 12 months so I lose any credibility again, okay? Then you cannot 13 work like that. 14 I want to be able to choose a lawyer, to contact this 15 Muslim association. This lawyer will be vetted, vetted by CIA, 16 FBI, whatever you want, and then he will access me and tell me 17 how to proceed. 18 But these people, I want the record to be clear I will 19 not receive them, speak to them from today, ever. And the record 20 is here to attest it. I want the right to hire my own lawyer. 21 And I know that the Muslim lawyer, knowing my situation, will 22 work free for me until I am released. 23 So the fact that I don't have money, it is not at all 24 an issue, because I know that prevented me to open a bank account 25 in a Muslim bank because I wanted them, that the people, they 0064 1 will know that I need help and some money will be sent to me. 2 They said no, because the government will capture your 3 money. But the government, they didn't capture my money within 4 some bank. Only if it's in the Muslim bank the government will 5 capture it. But when the government sees that the money is put 6 by them, it's okay, I have money in the bank, despite that's 7 apparently forbidden. 8 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Moussaoui, what we're going 9 to do, as I said, we're going to have a psychiatrist checking you 10 over in the cell. And I'll make my final decision about whether 11 I'm permitting you to proceed pro se based upon that report. 12 Thank you. 13 All right. We'll remand -- oh, Mr. Moussaoui, we want 14 a copy of the document that you read to the Court. If that's 15 your only copy, we'll make a photocopy and it will be returned to 16 you. 17 THE DEFENDANT: Okay. 18 THE COURT: Do you have it there? You can give it to 19 the marshal. 20 THE DEFENDANT: Yes. You want it now? 21 THE COURT: Actually go on into the cellblock and we'll 22 go ahead and get it from you there. All right? 23 The marshals may take Mr. Moussaoui back to the 24 cellblock. 25 (Defendant out). 0065 1 THE COURT: All right, we'll recess court. 2 (Which were all the proceedings had 3 at this time.) 4 5 6 CERTIFICATE OF THE REPORTER 7 I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript of the 8 record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter. 9 10 11 Anneliese J. Thomson 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25