24 April 2002
Source: Digital file purchased from Eastern District of Virginia official reporter Anneliese Thomson; (703) 299-8595 by way of www.exemplaris.com for $66.00. File digitally signed by Ms. Thomson.

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 1                      UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
 2                          ALEXANDRIA DIVISION
 3   UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,     .       Criminal No. 01-455-A
 4        vs.                      .       Alexandria, Virginia
                                   .       April 22, 2002               
 5   ZACARIAS MOUSSAOUI,           .       10:00 a.m.
     a/k/a Shaqil, a/k/a           .
 6   Abu Khalid al Sahrawi,        .
 7                  Defendant.     .      
 8   .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
 9                      TRANSCRIPT OF MOTION HEARING
10                      UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
                                   KENNETH M. KARAS, AUSA
13                                 DAVID J. NOVAK, AUSA
                                   United States Attorney's Office
14                                 2100 Jamieson Avenue
                                   Alexandria, VA 22314
21                                 U.S. District Court, Fifth Floor
                                   401 Courthouse Square
22                                 Alexandria, VA 22314
24                             (Pages 1 - 65 )
 1   APPEARANCES: (Cont'd.)
                                   Federal Public Defender
 3                                 Office of the Federal Public
 4                                 1650 King Street
                                   Alexandria, VA 22314
 5                                   and
                                   EDWARD B. MAC MAHON, ESQ.
 6                                 P.O. Box 903
                                   107 East Washington Street
 7                                 Middleburg, VA 20118
 8                                 GERALD THOMAS ZERKIN
                                   Assistant Federal Public Defender
 9                                 Office of the Public Defender
                                   One Capital Square
10                                 830 East Main Street, Suite 1100
                                   Richmond, VA 23219
11                                   and
                                   JUDY CLARKE
12                                 Assistant Federal Public Defender
                                   Federal Defenders of Eastern
13                                 Washington and Idaho
                                   10 N. Post, Suite 700
14                                 Spokane, WA 99201        
 1                         P R O C E E D I N G S
 2             THE CLERK:  Criminal Case 2001-455-A, United States of 
 3   America v. Zacarias Moussaoui. 
 4             (Defendant in.)
 5             THE CLERK:  Will counsel please state their appearance 
 6   for the record.
 7             MR. SPENCER:  Good morning, Your Honor.  Rob Spencer, 
 8   Ken Karas, and Dave Novak for the United States.
 9             THE COURT:  Good morning.
10             MR. DUNHAM:  Good morning, Your Honor.  Frank Dunham, 
11   the Federal Public Defender, Jerry Zerkin and Ed MacMahon.
12             THE DEFENDANT:  Ma'am.
13             MR. DUNHAM:  And Judy Clarke for the defense. 
14             THE DEFENDANT:  No, I am sorry to note they are not 
15   anymore my lawyer.
16             THE COURT:  Mr. Moussaoui, go up to the lectern, 
17   please.
18             THE DEFENDANT:  Thank you. 
19             THE COURT:  Mr. Moussaoui, before you say anything, you 
20   have a right to speak in court, and I want to advise you that 
21   anything you say may be used against you by the government in the 
22   prosecution of its case.  Do you understand that, sir? 
23             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, thank you. 
24             THE COURT:  All right.
25             (Pause.)
 1             THE COURT:  Just one minute. 
 2             Just speak up loudly, Mr. Moussaoui.  Go ahead. 
 3             THE DEFENDANT:  Zacarias Moussaoui, (Arabic spoken.)  
 4   In the name of Allah, I, Zacarias Moussaoui, today the 22nd of 
 5   April, 2002, after being prevented for a long time to mount an 
 6   effective defense by overly restrictive and oppressive condition 
 7   of confinement, take the control of my defense by entering a pro 
 8   se defense set for presentation in order to mount a significant 
 9   defense of the defense of the life that Allah, the most 
10   masterful, has granted to me. 
11             I, slave of Allah, Zacarias Moussaoui, reject 
12   completely the imposition of the U.S. so-called appointed lawyer 
13   Dunham, Zerkin, MacMahon, and denounce their misconduct and their 
14   intentional ineffective assistance. 
15             I, slave of Allah, Zacarias Moussaoui, will engage 
16   action against the U.S. Department of so-called Justice for very 
17   serious misconduct reason that I will only explain in open court 
18   today. 
19             I, slave of Allah, Zacarias Moussaoui, have the 
20   intention in the shortest time practically possible to hire my 
21   own chosen Muslim lawyer to assist me in matters of procedure and 
22   understanding of the U.S. law.  This Muslim lawyer chosen by me 
23   will only assume -- will not assume any representation in the 
24   Court. 
25             So physically I have to go through some events before I 
 1   can explain the reason I have chosen with -- of making this 
 2   decision, and if you will allow me, I will explain to you in a 
 3   short time. 
 4             I'm sure that you will recall that I did try to contact 
 5   you on the 27th of March.  I sent a message through the jail so 
 6   that I would place a phone call to your office or direct to you.  
 7   And at the end of the message that I have here, I made clear that 
 8   I didn't want my lawyer to be informed, because a very serious 
 9   development have happened.  So this is, in a sense, the letter 
10   that I wanted -- I tried to send to you. 
11             THE COURT:  All right.  Now, Mr. Moussaoui, before you 
12   publish that in open court, I want to make sure you understand 
13   that once you've announced it, everybody's going to know.  And 
14   there may be private things that went on between you and your 
15   counsel that it would not be to your advantage to have the 
16   government be aware of. 
17             THE DEFENDANT:  I'm fully aware that on my right that  
18   some people were seeking my death.  I'm fully aware.  Thank you.
19             THE COURT:  But do you nevertheless want to make this 
20   public like this? 
21             THE DEFENDANT:  Absolutely.
22             THE COURT:  All right. 
23             THE DEFENDANT:  (Arabic spoken.)  In the name of Allah, 
24   oh, you who believe, take not as your Bitanah, advisor, 
25   consultant, protector, helper, friend, those outside of your 
 1   religion, pagan, Jew, Christian, and hypocrites, since they will 
 2   not fail to do their best to corrupt you. 
 3             They desire to harm you severely.  Hatred has already 
 4   appeared from their mouth.  But what their breast conceals is far 
 5   worse.  Indeed, we have made plain to you the Ayat, the proof, 
 6   the evidence, the verse, if you understand. 
 7             Koran, Sura Al-i-Imran, Number 3, Ayat 118. 
 8             May Allah forgive me, I failed to fully understand. 
 9             Under the cover of assistance of the defense counsel, 
10   the legal version of humanitarian assistance, the United States 
11   are orchestrating my sending to the safe haven, Bosnia style. 
12             What they have done is a sophisticated version of the 
13   Troy horse or the kiss of death.  Dead, injured, judge, 
14   investigator, and the so-called defender are all federal 
15   employee.  I can't wait for the jury. 
16             They appointed, imposed the dream team.  Greed, fame, 
17   and vanity is their motivation.  Their game is deception.  Their 
18   slogan is no scruple.  The aim is SAMs appeal.  Their plot:  Oh, 
19   you to whom the Koran has been sent down.  Verily, you are a mad 
20   man.  Surah Hijr, Number 15, Ayat No. 6. 
21             Of course, when they understood that I will not cave 
22   in, they say we could go to the judge and say that you are not 
23   fit or a bit paranoid.  The government might agree, because in 
24   the U.S., we do execute mentally retarded people, Mr. Moussaoui. 
25             So what to do?  Then fight.  Then fight in the cause of 
 1   Allah.  You are not tasked, held responsible except for yourself, 
 2   and incite the believers to fight along with you.  It may be that 
 3   Allah will restrain the evil of the disbeliever.  And Allah is 
 4   stronger in might and stronger in punishment.
 5   Surah An-Nisaa, Ayat 84. 
 6             Indeed, I want to fight against the evil force of the 
 7   federal government.  And Allah say, verily those who disbelieve 
 8   spend their wealth to hinder men from the path of Allah and so 
 9   will they continue to spend it, but in the end it will become an 
10   anguish for them.  Then they will be overcome.  And those who 
11   disbelieve will be gathered into hell.  Surah Al Anfal, Number 8, 
12   Ayat 36. 
13             No doubt they are spending million of their haram, evil 
14   money, to kill me.  Therefore, oh, you who believe, shall I guide 
15   you to trade that will save you from a painful torment; that you 
16   will believe in Allah and his messenger, peace be upon him, and 
17   that you will fight in the cause of Allah with your wealth and 
18   your lives that will be better for you but know.  Surah As-Saff 
19   61, Ayat Number 1011. 
20             Inshallah, Allah willing, there will be some Muslims 
21   who want to fight and spend for the money for the real day of 
22   judgment.  From the beginning, the United States is preventing 
23   any Muslim help to reach me, so let me clarify a few points.
24             (Arabic spoken.)  First I will not entertain the 
25   illusion that a U.S. District Judge Leonie Brinkema is an honest 
 1   broker.  Reality tells me that this judge is here as a field 
 2   general, entrusted with the mission to get this matter over 
 3   quickly.  Every general has a commander-in-chief, and I know how 
 4   much the U.S. commander-in-chief wants me to be over quickly. 
 5             No problem, because as Allah say, oh, you who believe, 
 6   when you meet those who disbelieve in the battlefield, never turn 
 7   your back to them.
 8             THE COURT:  Just a second.
 9             Mr. Moussaoui, I'm going to let you finish in a second.  
10   You've written out what you're reading to the Court right now; is 
11   that correct?  You're reading from text? 
12             THE DEFENDANT:  Partly.
13             THE COURT:  All right.  Because you are making 
14   reference to, I assume, citations in Islamic writings --
15             THE DEFENDANT:  It's the Koran.  I'm reading Koran.
16             THE COURT:  You're reading from the Koran.
17             THE DEFENDANT:  Yeah.
18             THE COURT:  All right.  My court reporter, to make sure 
19   we have an accurate transcript of these proceedings, is going to 
20   request you give us a copy of what you're reading from.
21             THE DEFENDANT:  Absolutely.
22             THE COURT:  All right, that's fine.  The marshals need 
23   to make sure that's done when this proceeding is over. 
24             All right.  Go ahead. 
25             THE DEFENDANT:  So yes, I will fight.  I have no 
 1   problem, because as Allah say, oh, you who believe, when you meet 
 2   those who believe in the battlefield, never turn their back to 
 3   them.  Surah Al-Anfal, Ayat 15. 
 4             My rule of engagement as Allah say, invite to the way 
 5   of your Lord with wisdom and fair preaching.  And argue with them 
 6   in a way that is better.  Surah An-Nahl Number 16, Ayat 125. 
 7             These good Muslim manners have, of course, nothing to 
 8   do with a docile attitude.  As Allah say, oh, you who believe, 
 9   when you meet an enemy force, take a firm stand against them.  
10   And remember the name of Allah much, so that you might be 
11   successful.  Surah Al-Anfal, Number 8, Ayat 45. 
12             I will not make your day by giving any excuse to your 
13   marshal to assault me in court, but be sure that I do not fear 
14   you.  As Allah say, it is only Satan that suggested to you fear 
15   of his friends.  So fear them not, but fear Allah if you are  
16   true believer.  Surah Al-i-Imran, Number 3, Ayat 175. 
17             My experience tells me that the U.S. will not hesitate 
18   to have a trial without me.  After all, they only need me for the 
19   gas chamber.  But Allah is my witness.  Nobody will ever 
20   represent me, Inshallah, because suicide is forbidden in Islam. 
21             As Allah say, verily, my prayer, my sacrifice, my 
22   living, and my dying are for Allah, the Lord of the Alamin.  
23   Surah Al-An'am, Number 6, Ayat 162. 
24             To Allah we belong and to Allah we return.  I turn to 
25   Allah, the almighty, for all the Muslim and all the Mujahedin  I 
 1   pray to Allah, the masterful, for all my brothers in jail like in 
 2   Algeria, everywhere in the land of Allah. 
 3             I pray to Allah for the return of Andalusia, Spain, to 
 4   the Muslim and the liberation of Ceuta and Medilla.  I pray to 
 5   Allah for the return of India to the Muslims and to the 
 6   liberation of Kashimir. 
 7             I pray to Allah, Al Shadeed Al Y Rikab, Al Shadeed Al Y 
 8   Rikab, (phonetic), the severe in punishment for the destruction 
 9   of the Jewish people and states and for the liberation of 
10   Palestine by the Muslim, for the Muslim. 
11             I pray to Allah, the protector, for the destruction of 
12   Russia and the return of the Islamic Emirates of 
13   Chechnia.  I pray to Allah, the powerful, for the return of the 
14   Islamic Emirates of Afghanistan and the destruction of the United 
15   States of America. 
16             I pray to Allah, the forgiver, to forgive us, the 
17   Muslim, for the occupation of the land of Haramain, the holy 
18   land. 
19             I pray to Allah, the all powerful, for the return of 
20   Mecca, Medina and Al-Kuds in the hand of the Muslim. 
21             (Arabic Spoken.)
22             Oh, Allah, you are my supporter and you are my helper.  
23   By you I move, and by you I attack, and by you I battle.  Prophet 
24   Muhammad, peace be upon him, Saheeh Al Tirmedee. 
25             So, America, America, I'm ready to fight in your Don 
 1   King fight, even both hands tied behind the back in court.  And 
 2   be sure Inshallah that all your ingenuity will not prevent me to 
 3   be in court in October.  Inshallah, you will get the point. 
 4             The last word belongs to Allah as the all wise.  And 
 5   remember, and remember when the disbeliever plotted against you 
 6   to imprison you or to kill you or to get you out from your home, 
 7   Mecca, they were plotting and Allah too was planning.  And Allah 
 8   is the best of planner.  Surah Al-Anfal, Number 8, Ayat 30.  
 9   Abukalid Sahrawi. 
10             That was the essence of the letter that I wanted to 
11   send you, to be read in open court.  But the argument is coming.  
12   It will be much shorter. 
13             Can you stop speaking, please? 
14             Yes, as you know, I have been arrested in Minnesota, 
15   and I've been transferred by plane to New York and the jail in 
16   Brooklyn.  So when I arrived in Brooklyn, after a few day, I was 
17   transferred to the Civic Center, the tribunal, to have a 
18   pretrial. 
19             So I was -- I went to an office, and they have -- in 
20   this office, I met a, a clerk or an official.  And he make me 
21   fill some paper.  So I filled the paper.  He told me that it was, 
22   my best recollection, is for the application for bail or 
23   something of this.  And I give all my detail, my financial 
24   resources, my name, my address in France, different thing, okay? 
25             Then after that, I went to the lobby, and there was a 
 1   Saudi doctor, who made the front page at the time.  He was also 
 2   there.  And there was two Indian, okay?  They were being charged.  
 3   Because I was very close to them, maybe from here to here, and 
 4   the FBI was saying that you have been indicted for an act of 
 5   terrorist or waging war or something like that, and he say that 
 6   he would write books.  I said, "You are not going to sell a lot 
 7   of books in America with your story." 
 8             When they decided to send me back to -- to send me to 
 9   the judge for the first time, we went on the lift, and I was 
10   expecting to see the judge.  At this point, they have an order to 
11   send me back to Brooklyn, so I never saw the judge. 
12             I went back to Brooklyn.  After a few day, again they 
13   say, "You are going again for pretrial."  Okay.  So they send me 
14   to the tribunal, and at this point, I was sent directly to the 
15   tribunal, to the courtroom.  And as I entered the courtroom, 
16   there was already Mr. DuBoulay, lawyer Donald DuBoulay, who was 
17   sitting in the rail, and he was waiting for me.  So he said, "I 
18   have been appointed.  I've just received a phone call.  There was 
19   a sense of urgency. 
20             So I sit down.  I say, "I don't want a lawyer.  I want 
21   to speak for myself." 
22             He say, "It's very administrative.  It's very quick.  
23   There's nothing going to happen here." 
24             Okay.  So he spoke with the judge, and I went back to 
25   Brooklyn after.  I'll try to summarize as much as I can. 
 1             Then I was indicted -- no, then after I was put on a 
 2   material witness, again the same thing.  I went to the judge, 
 3   DuBoulay was there, and they were talking and everything.  There 
 4   I argue my case.  I say that I was illegally arrested and I have 
 5   a visa and so on.  I tried to explain myself.  The record shows 
 6   that in a better manner. 
 7             So after that, I was indicted, okay?  At this point, 
 8   before I was indicted, all the time when I was speaking with 
 9   Donald DuBoulay, I say that I want a Muslim lawyer, and I said I 
10   didn't want to have a non-Muslim, because there would be no trust 
11   at all. 
12             He say, "You -- in the first place, you don't have 
13   right of lawyer as of this moment," because I was on INS.  So he 
14   say, "You don't have a right to a lawyer."  He say that the 
15   government have appointed a lawyer for you because maybe the 
16   media, the media know that you don't have a lawyer, they will 
17   treat like you are some problem, and they say that they also want 
18   to, maybe to propose things to you, but never -- anyway, he say 
19   that it's just at the diligence of the government.  I have no 
20   rights when I was on INS. 
21             So I said to DuBoulay that I want a Muslim lawyer.  
22   Okay.  He say, "At the moment, you don't have the right."  He 
23   say, "When you get on death penalty, you have right to two 
24   lawyer." 
25             So I say, "I want you to make known to the judge that I 
 1   want at least one Muslim lawyer," and I said to him that there is 
 2   good cause for having one Muslim lawyer, because the case involve 
 3   the Muslim, and it involves somebody who is acquainted with the 
 4   Muslim environment, somebody who have knowledge of what is the 
 5   Muslim scene, the Mujahedin scene, what you call the terrorist 
 6   scene, somebody who is able quickly to understand what I am 
 7   talking about. 
 8             So he say that he will convey that message, but 
 9   unfortunately to me that there was nothing he could do.  The 
10   lawyer has been appointed.  He told me there was lawyer Zerkin 
11   and lawyer Dunham and lawyer MacMahon.  Actually, he told me only 
12   the name of Zerkin; that's all. 
13             So I said that I didn't want them, because in first 
14   place, again, I repeat myself, I didn't want a non-Muslim. 
15             Okay.  When I -- I was transferred -- I was waiting for 
16   them in New York to come to the -- after I was indicted in New 
17   York.  (Arabic spoken.)
18             Wait a minute.  When I was indicted to New York, I was 
19   waiting for them to come to visit me, because I stayed for four 
20   day.  They didn't show up.  Okay.  I find it strange.  I thought 
21   that maybe they would be eager to immediately make contact with 
22   me, but I made a mistake, because I clearly indicated that I 
23   didn't want them.  Later, later on, I regret this mistake. 
24             So I arrive here, and I met them downstairs a few 
25   minute before court, and I immediately told them that I wanted a 
 1   Muslim lawyer.  They told me, "You can't have one, because the 
 2   Court has appointed this lawyer to you, and, and there's nothing 
 3   you can do.  Because they are appointed, you have no choice on 
 4   the religion of your lawyer." 
 5             They say, "But we can have a consultant, a Muslim 
 6   lawyer that we will hire," and he will work with you. 
 7             Okay.  I say okay.  Because what I wanted is to make a 
 8   contact with a Muslim person and to tell him like I told to 
 9   DuBoulay the name of two or three person I knew in America who I 
10   trust to a certain degree, and they will be able to contact a 
11   Muslim lawyer, that I will be confident that he's representing my 
12   interest in the best manner.  That's the only thing I wanted to 
13   do:  to meet a Muslim person so he can contact a Muslim cleric 
14   who is in Oklahoma who I know and he will find a lawyer. 
15             So -- this never happened anyway. 
16             So they say they will do it.  Okay.  I was in a very 
17   difficult position.  I had all the United States people against 
18   me, and I don't need to give detail, but I don't know if you can 
19   even imagine.  But anyway, I have to enter the situation, so I 
20   decided to be patient, okay? 
21             So after a few day making discussion with them and 
22   everything, okay, it became apparent that it will be extremely 
23   difficult to have even this basic understanding about how we are 
24   going to work, okay? 
25             So the first encounter was with Zerkin.  Lawyer Zerkin, 
 1   after not even a week, we have a very direct discussion where I 
 2   said to him that if he doesn't want to, to adapt, to follow the 
 3   guidance of my defense the way I want, according to my principle, 
 4   my belief, my understanding, and my religion, okay, he have to 
 5   make a professional judgment and withdraw from the case.  He say 
 6   he can't. 
 7             So he went on holiday to France, and I told him, "When 
 8   you go to, on holiday to France, you can think about the matter, 
 9   and when you come back, you give me a clear answer."  Okay.  
10   Because the last thing I wanted is them doing what they want 
11   according to their idea when they have no knowledge at all, 
12   because they have no understanding of terrorism, Muslim, 
13   Mujahedin.  They have not any understanding.  He has a few proof 
14   here they stated themselves.  Okay. 
15             So me, I never confide, I never told them anything 
16   about -- of substance.  My name, my address, where I come from, 
17   where I study, that's the kind of thing.  And they state it in 
18   the letter that I have here, okay?  So there was no trust.  It's 
19   here as well.  There was no trust relation between me and them. 
20             So at first, MacMahon have a very relaxed attitude.  He 
21   say, "This is your defense, Mr. Moussaoui.  We are here to help 
22   you, okay, and we will do as you wish.  You want to do this 
23   according to Islam principle," so on and so forth, okay.  Nice 
24   talk.  The same for Mr. Dunham. 
25             But on January 30, the last day of the month, I 
 1   believe, after like something of great importance, we have an 
 2   argument, a divergence of opinion about a tactical point, okay, 
 3   and Frank send them, MacMahon and Zerkin, to visit me, okay, to 
 4   clarify a situation. 
 5             When they came, they didn't discuss the point they were 
 6   supposed to discuss.  They wanted to assert their right as a 
 7   lawyer to define the strategy and the tactic on the defense of my 
 8   life.  So they said basically, "Mr. Moussaoui" -- because before 
 9   in a sense, I always told whatever I disagree with.  They say, 
10   "From now on, finished.  We are going to do as we wish." 
11             I say, "This is my life, and you have not any 
12   understanding of the situation.  You have no information.  You 
13   have nothing from the FBI.  You have nothing, and you want to be 
14   in charge." 
15             He says, "We are the lawyer, and we are by statute or 
16   whatever, we are in charge." 
17             So I say, "So are you sure?"  So I asked them three 
18   time, because this is the manner of the Muslim, to assert 
19   something, we used to -- we ask three time the same question.  
20   And if he respond three time, it means that it's okay now. 
21             So they say, "Yes.  Indeed, we will just inform you, 
22   inform you when we believe that it's important."  Okay. 
23             So I say, "If it's like that, I dismiss you.  You are 
24   not my lawyer anymore."  And I have a letter who can show this. 
25             They say, "We are not your lawyer.  We are the lawyer 
 1   of the Court." 
 2             Ah.  They say yes.  They say they are not my lawyer. 
 3             Okay.  I have people who defend my life, and when I 
 4   tell them, "You are not my lawyer anymore," they say, "Yes, 
 5   indeed, we are the lawyer of the Court."  That's good. 
 6             So, so here a simple example.  I will jump, because 
 7   it's a very long story anyway.  So I will jump to the moment I 
 8   send to you this letter requiring a phone call to talk to you, 
 9   and in here I say, as a decision relating to the death penalty 
10   due to be made probably on Friday, could you arrange for me an 
11   opportunity to call the U.S. District Judge, Leonie Brinkema, or 
12   her office very quickly?  I do not wish my lawyer to be informed 
13   of this request.  It's here. 
14             So I wanted to talk to you in order to dismiss the 
15   lawyer and to go pro se, because I came to understand that after 
16   heavy disagreement, they have decided to sideline me and to do 
17   what they wanted because I'm in jail, I knew nothing anyway, and 
18   that's what transpired for that discussion, okay? 
19             So at first, Frank Dunham didn't have this attitude.  
20   He had a pragmatic attitude.  He was saying that we don't have a 
21   concrete reason to spat at the moment.  Each time I disagreed, I 
22   was able to show to him that my argument was well-founded, and 
23   then he say, "Okay.  Because it's well-founded, it's okay this 
24   time."  He say, "At the moment, I don't have really something 
25   tell me, no, Mr. Moussaoui, I can't accept your judgment.  Either 
 1   you dismiss us or we do what we want." 
 2             That was the deal with Frank Dunham. 
 3             So he have this attitude, and for me, I could go along 
 4   with this, because I was waiting for this Muslim lawyer that they 
 5   said that they were looking for, and as well have the need that 
 6   my case was advancing, because time was ticking.  So I was trying 
 7   to make patience. 
 8             But one day, Frank Dunham brought me a list of a 
 9   defense investigation, and this item on the list I have refused 
10   before.  I say no, no Muslim, no Muslim, no Muslim, okay, because 
11   I didn't want them to interact with the Muslim, because with the 
12   harassment campaign by the government, I didn't want to put 
13   anybody that I knew on the spotlight, because any association 
14   with me will be terrible for them. 
15             So I say no, no, no.  So at first in January, beginning 
16   of January, they accept it.  Then after, they came with the same 
17   list, and they say, "We have to do this, Mr. Moussaoui.  This is 
18   compulsory under the AG (phonetic), the law, and blah, blah, 
19   blah. 
20             So I say to Frank Dunham, "This is -- you want the 
21   confrontation, so I go pro se immediately."  He say yes.  Not 
22   him.  He was referring to Zerkin, and he was talking to McGrew 
23   because I say this list has been drafted by Zerkin and McGrew.  
24   He said yes.  McGrew is an investigator.  He didn't refer to 
25   MacMahon.  But, anyway, he say yes. 
 1             The idea behind was that I will go pro se immediately 
 2   and you will probably order a mental health examination.  And 
 3   they had made the mistake to tell them that I will not entertain 
 4   any discussion with people who advance theories that man is 
 5   driven by an incestuous desire toward his mother, meaning that's 
 6   the Freudian theory of psychiatry, so I have nothing to do with 
 7   this kind of people, to talk to them, so they knew that I was 
 8   somebody of very firm in his principle, I hope so, Inshallah, and 
 9   we knew that we have this disadvantage. 
10             So I will come to you as pro se.  You will say, 
11   "Mr. Moussaoui, we have to examine you," and I will refuse, and 
12   they will be appointed standby lawyer. 
13             And then somehow I will be removed completely through, 
14   for whatever means America decide.  And you will see that I have 
15   a few letter of opinion on this point.  But anyway, that's not my 
16   main point.  If you believe that my main point that I didn't get 
17   a Muslim lawyer, that's why I wanted the whole thing to be 
18   stopped, that's not the case.  There's a much stronger point, a 
19   point that belong to you. 
20             So I have a few letters that say that Mr. Moussaoui is 
21   a very clever man, he's very intelligent, he's very educated.  
22   That was the beginning of our relation.  At the beginning, 
23   Mr. Dunham and all of them would say:  Mr. Moussaoui, you are 
24   just fine.  But then recently they started to say, basically to 
25   smear me. 
 1             But, anyway -- so I have a few letters of this. 
 2             So concerning the case, since the beginning, the case 
 3   have not advanced.  Why?  Two reasons.  First, because I don't 
 4   say anything to them.  And I have a letter to attest to this, 
 5   where they complain that you don't confide with us, and we are 
 6   not able to advance and so on. 
 7             Second, because the government didn't give them 
 8   anything until two weeks ago.  So because I anticipate that you 
 9   will be saying that Mr. Moussaoui, the case is four months old 
10   and now you come, okay, I have a very direct letter that attests 
11   that Mr. Dunham say:  Indeed, anything of substance about the 
12   case, of the case, of Moussaoui case, we seem to be learning from 
13   the press. At this point, at this point, we are reduced to asking 
14   that if a document is leaked, at least leak one to us. 
15             He was talking to Paul McNulty. 
16             Second, I have a stronger document than this.  It's an 
17   ex parte application --
18             THE COURT:  Well, now, wait.  Whoa, whoa, whoa.  Those 
19   ex parte applications --
20             THE DEFENDANT:  I'm not going to read the name or 
21   anything.  I'm just going to read -- I'm aware -- I've become 
22   aware.  I'm just reading the phrase that says that they don't 
23   know nothing, there's no name, there's nothing, absolutely no 
24   information that is under seal.  I'm aware. 
25             "As of today, we have not received a single document 
 1   that relates in any way to any of the person alleged to be 
 2   hijacker on September 11, 2001.  Not a single plane ticket, 
 3   flight manifest, car rental receipt, hotel, or other travel 
 4   document.  We have no information regarding any of the events 
 5   relating to any of the hijacked plane.  We have no intelligence 
 6   file relating, relating in any way to a single person alleged in 
 7   any way to be involved in this conspiracy." 
 8             Such information has been requested but has not yet 
 9   been produced.  Okay. 
10             "So in short" -- it's written -- "in short, we have 
11   almost no discovery at this time but anticipate that an immense 
12   volume of material is on the verge of production in this case, 
13   leaving us with relatively limited period of time to analyze and 
14   prepare that information of Mr. Moussaoui defense." 
15             This letter is two weeks old.  So this letter, this ex 
16   parte is two weeks old. 
17             I have the handwritten of Dunham, of Dunham, and it is 
18   dated 4/11.  So if somebody wanted to claim that the case, the 
19   reality of the case is four months old, I will object strongly, 
20   because this was supposed to be filed to you, and I show -- I'm 
21   not showing -- it's United States of America, Zacarias Moussaoui, 
22   under seal.  I hide the name. 
23             So that shows that the case is two weeks old. 
24             But we didn't get the point yet.  Let's make the other 
25   point as well, because I never know if I will be in court again, 
 1   now, so I will be quite clear. 
 2             (Arabic spoken.) 
 3             So this is a compound by your failure to trust -- 
 4   sorry.  Here I'm dealing with the fact that I never confide with 
 5   them.  I never give them any information.  I was in a complete 
 6   state of mistrust with them since the beginning.  And this letter 
 7   is dated February 25, okay, by the Public Defender, Federal 
 8   Defender Office, okay, and written by Frank Dunham, okay. 
 9             So I received the fact that we don't have -- anyway, 
10   this is a compound by your failure to trust us up to this point 
11   with information critical to your defense, meaning that I didn't 
12   give them any information. 
13             Here we go.  "The government discovery in this case 
14   will be so massive that no one person will be able to read and 
15   digest it at all before trial." 
16             Already he say that he's not capable of reading and 
17   digesting the thing.  That's why they decided to change the 
18   approach in this case, to create a theory.  They have decided to 
19   create a theory to put it in the air.  They say, "We are going to 
20   create a theory, we will make it hang in the air, and the jury 
21   will be confused.  That's how you are going to save your life, 
22   Mr. Moussaoui." 
23             Thank you very much. 
24             "You will have a trial team searching through the 
25   literal haystack provided by the government, looking for the 
 1   proverbial needle without knowing that it is, indeed, a needle 
 2   being looked for.  Since you are not able to search through the 
 3   material yourself, given your condition of confinement, the 
 4   defense must do the search for you. 
 5             "I know, I know you know this.  It is my strong hope 
 6   that at some point you will see the wisdom in confiding the 
 7   information which is vital to your defense to counsel."
 8             So he attests that I never speak to them about 
 9   anything.  I never did this anyway. 
10             So let's go to the final point.  So we have to go back 
11   to New York, because all of this starts in New York, the all 
12   great American game. 
13             Mr. Moussaoui is not an indigent.  Mr. Moussaoui, he 
14   have more than $30,000 in the United States.  He has at least 
15   $25,000 in a bank account in Pan Am escrow, holding some money, 
16   at least $6,000, this account today worth more than $1,000. 
17             So Mr. Moussaoui, when he went to pretrial the first 
18   time and he filled out this paper, if they went to process it, 
19   they realized that they can't appoint a lawyer, because I have 
20   the resources to hire my first lawyer. 
21             So they say, Mr. Moussaoui, let's go back to jail.  And 
22   then we make Moussaoui direct to court, and, Mr. Moussaoui, we 
23   understand this, because thanks to Mr. Reid, because they gave me 
24   an article -- and I don't read much of newspaper, because they 
25   are all lie, so I don't like to read much, but as he was a 
 1   Muslim, I see Brother Reid, he came to in front of a judge and 
 2   the judge said to him:  "Do you understand the charge?" 
 3             And he say "Yeah." 
 4             Reid -- Reid also asked for a court-appointed attorney. 
 5             So he asked for it.  And he was asked -- it was brought 
 6   in front of a judge.  And a judge make him understand that this 
 7   charge, and do you want a lawyer, because it's a right. 
 8             I never had the opportunity of this, because they sent 
 9   me back the second time.  They brought me direct to court and 
10   DuBoulay was standing and he say "I'm his lawyer."  The judge 
11   never asked me if I want, because they knew from the government, 
12   from the mentality, if you want, I have that we never have one 
13   like that.  So they knew that I will ask for a Muslim lawyer, and 
14   they will be -- I would like them to say that they didn't have 
15   file on me about the kind of ideology I have and did not 
16   anticipate that I would refuse a lawyer and especially a Jewish 
17   lawyer.  Okay? 
18             So they knew this.  So they manipulated the whole thing 
19   in order to bring me direct to trial.  But it didn't stop here, 
20   because this right is, I believe, in your 14th Amendment.  
21   Anyway, we will go there later on. 
22             So the second time when I come to Virginia, the same 
23   thing happened.  I came to one judge first.  What was the name of 
24   the first judge?  I don't even remember.  He never told me his 
25   name. 
 1             So, anyway, I was brought here.  And they rise and they 
 2   say:  "We are the lawyer for Mr. Moussaoui," but, the judge -- I 
 3   was indicted.  It was a new indictment in Virginia.  I should be 
 4   asked:  "Do you want a lawyer, Mr. Moussaoui?  Because, 
 5   Mr. Moussaoui, you have $30,000."
 6              But no, because the government doesn't want me to have 
 7   my own lawyer.  They want me to have their civil servant 
 8   appointed lawyer, officer of the court, like they told me. 
 9             So I knew that under your, your law, the United States 
10   law, the Supreme Court say under the due process clause of the 
11   14th Amendment, criminal prosecution must comport with prevailing 
12   notion of fundamental fairness.  We have long anticipated this 
13   standard of fairness to require that a criminal defendant be 
14   afforded a meaningful opportunity to present a complete defense.
15             So after a court, Washington v. Texas, the right to 
16   present a defense is a fundamental element of due process of law.
17             THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Moussaoui, I'm giving you a 
18   chance to speak, but I'm familiar with the law. 
19             THE DEFENDANT:  Yeah, but --
20             THE COURT:  Let me ask you what else -- you're asking 
21   the Court this morning to let you fire these attorneys and 
22   proceed pro se --
23             THE DEFENDANT:  No.
24             THE COURT:  -- or to hire for yourself a Muslim 
25   attorney.
 1             THE DEFENDANT:  No.
 2             THE COURT:  Well, then tell me exactly what you're 
 3   asking for.
 4             THE DEFENDANT:  I'm asking you three things at least.  
 5   First of all, unless it will be proven to my satisfaction that I 
 6   will not be impeded in the future, I will make an appeal for the 
 7   old process, because since in the beginning, this process is 
 8   illegal under your law.  I've never been asked it, this right 
 9   that I have under your law to decide if I wanted to be 
10   represented by a lawyer, okay?  That's the first element. 
11             But I'm not necessary in a delaying tactic, wanting to 
12   start everything from scratch.  If it will be proven to me that 
13   you will supply to me all the elements to prepare my own defense, 
14   I will reconsider your offer, because the second point I will say 
15   is they knew under the law they are supposed to give me my right.  
16   They are supposed to inform me that the process, what happened to 
17   me was not according to your law.  They are in charge of this. 
18             But because of the vested interest they have in 
19   representing me, they have no -- they didn't want to do this.  
20   Because the first thing when I come, they will say, 
21   Mr. Moussaoui, the judge didn't do his job.  The judge should 
22   have asked you first if anywhere you indicated that, yes, you 
23   want appointed lawyer.  Then we enter the scene.  And they knew 
24   this from the beginning.  The same thing for Mr. DuBoulay.  
25   Because, of course, fame and money and so on and so forth. 
 1             But that's not only this is.  This endangered my life, 
 2   because, because of this, they know that I don't want them, that 
 3   I want a Muslim lawyer, they have put aside half of the case.  
 4   Half of -- the Muslim case, they don't want to deal with this.  
 5   If they can't deal, because as Mr. DuBoulay -- sorry, Mr. Dunham.   
 6   It's a mistake, it's not Mr. DuBoulay, it's Mr. Dunham -- say in 
 7   the newspaper apparently, apparently that he cannot send his 
 8   investigator, female investigator to Muslim country.  That's only 
 9   an example. 
10             And I know that people who could have provided vital 
11   evidence for me will never, never speak to a non-Muslim because 
12   they have the same kind of understanding in life than me.  And it 
13   was made clear to them that if they accepted the logic that the 
14   case has two parts at least, one in America and one in the Muslim 
15   environment.  If they cannot navigate in the Muslim environment, 
16   they have nobody of any Islamic understanding at this stage in 
17   that team, four months, and they were contacted by the 
18   association, a Muslim association, who proposed their service to 
19   them.  And they forget to phone back, he told me, Dunham.  Then 
20   after they said, "No, no they were too peace and love, they are 
21   not your kind of Muslim." 
22             But, anyway, that's only a side point.  But to the 
23   first point for me and to others also, in case that you will 
24   dismiss the whole thing, I will fight on these three points:  The 
25   fact that I was never asked -- able to get my rights, to choose 
 1   my own lawyer, because I had the financial means of this, okay, 
 2   and I'm innocent until proven guilty, okay, so even if the 
 3   government have blocked my money, I believe that they have no 
 4   right and this should be fought in court. 
 5             They say no.  They say this is a civil matter.  We 
 6   can't.  And then after they say it, well, we have to wait until 
 7   the end of the trial.  That was very -- we have a discussion 
 8   recently, because they open a bank account for me.  They opened a 
 9   bank account for me, because I have $3,000 where I used to hold 
10   in cash when I was arrested.  And the government took it and give 
11   them a check, okay?  It was from the treasurer.  So they wanted 
12   me to buy my own law books.  I have a letter here that says that 
13   I requested a law book to defense pro se, and the dictionary, 
14   Black dictionary, legal dictionary to understand more of the 
15   judicial system.  They said:  "You have to buy it by your own 
16   money.  And, anyway, we are not sure that the sum will allow 
17   you -- or allow them to give it to me." 
18             So that's the point.  Okay.
19             They have denied any effective assistance of lawyer.  
20   They have misconducted themselves, because their interests, their 
21   private interests in front of my interest, and the first one I 
22   say, my right to choose.
23             THE COURT:  All right.  Let me first advise you that 
24   you do have an absolute right under our law to be your own 
25   attorney, to proceed pro se.  You already know that. 
 1             You do not have a right to pick and choose the lawyer 
 2   you want appointed for you.  Therefore, that request cannot and 
 3   will not be granted. 
 4             THE DEFENDANT:  I didn't make that request.
 5             THE COURT:  You have the right to hire an attorney at 
 6   your own expense of your own choice.  However, in this type of 
 7   case where there are national security and classified documents, 
 8   you don't have totally unrestricted choice even if you have the 
 9   money available to hire an attorney, because the attorneys, as 
10   you know, because you've seen a copy of it, have to be able to be 
11   cleared to receive some of the information in this case, not all 
12   of it, but some of it. 
13             Now with those parameters, based upon what you have 
14   said -- and I'm going to give your attorneys a second if they 
15   want to respond to it -- you will be granted the request -- wait 
16   a minute -- you will be granted the request to proceed without 
17   these attorneys, but let me talk to them first.  You'll get a 
18   chance again.
19             THE DEFENDANT:  No, just a very final point here.  I do 
20   not wish at all and I do not want you to refer to them as my 
21   attorney.  They are not my attorney. 
22             THE COURT:  I understand.
23             THE DEFENDANT:  And this point is clear.  And I do not 
24   wish them to make any matter, any point of substance of the case.  
25   If they want to refute whatever they want, that's fine.  But they 
 1   should not mention any strategy, the same way --
 2             THE COURT:  These men will not.  They're experienced 
 3   attorneys. 
 4             THE DEFENDANT:  Yeah, yeah, I believe that they're 
 5   experienced.  They're experienced in deception.
 6             THE COURT:  Have a seat. 
 7             All right, Mr. Dunham.
 8             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes, I'm going.
 9             MR. DUNHAM:  Well, Your Honor, if we were to address 
10   this point by point, I think our view of things might be a little 
11   different, but we do understand the lack of trust that the 
12   individual has had in us from the beginning.  We've tried hard to 
13   earn it. 
14             I think there are some things that should be addressed 
15   with the Court, but I'm reluctant to do it in the presence of the 
16   government, but the Court should know about the representational 
17   issues.
18             THE COURT:  Let me start, first of all, by going to the 
19   motion that's before us right now about the SAM.  We'll get back 
20   to this other issue in a second, because some of this may make 
21   things a little bit easier. 
22             You have filed and the actual motion that's on the 
23   docket this morning is the defendant's motion for relief from 
24   conditions of confinement.  And you had a series of issues that 
25   you had complained about in that motion. 
 1             My understanding, because, as you know, we sent some of 
 2   our staff with the marshal to the jail on Friday to check things 
 3   out so that we could see what was going on there, and it's our 
 4   understanding that many of the issues complained about have been 
 5   or are about to be resolved. 
 6             MR. DUNHAM:  My understanding is that there is an 
 7   agreement with the government -- and Mr. Spencer can confirm 
 8   this -- that we have worked it out that Mr. Moussaoui will be 
 9   allowed to have a computer, a desk-top model, stand-alone, which 
10   will be provided by the defense; that he can have a keyboard and 
11   a mouse and a monitor to go with that computer. 
12             Now, there will be a separate secure room at the jail.  
13   They're installing power in the room at the present time, so it's 
14   not available as we speak, but it will be available in short 
15   order.  Sheriff Dunning and the U.S. Marshal Clark were over 
16   there Friday working on this. 
17             The government has agreed to provide CD-ROMs with the 
18   discovery material as it's made available.  The defense will 
19   provide copies of what we've already been given, and any new 
20   production would be -- the CD-ROM would be given directly by the 
21   government to Mr. Moussaoui. 
22             Now I do want to comment here briefly with an editorial 
23   comment that the pleading that Mr. Moussaoui read from was not 
24   filed with the Court, because it was about to be and we got a 
25   boatload of discovery just as we were about to turn it in, so it 
 1   became moot.  There was no point in making that representation at 
 2   that point in time. 
 3             Up to about April 11, what he read was correct, but we 
 4   got a load of discovery from the government, and it's coming 
 5   late, as we understand it, because they're taking the time to put 
 6   it on CD-ROM, which is the only way you can manage this stuff.  
 7   And so I wouldn't want the Court to think that we are of the -- 
 8   you know, we are a little bit captive to them, but we agreed to 
 9   go this CD-ROM route, and discovery was slower than we wanted, 
10   and we were about to bring it to the Court's attention when 
11   suddenly we got some.  And it wasn't a fair representation at the 
12   time. 
13             Now I will allude to the telephone.  We were concerned 
14   about the privileged nature of attorney-client privileged calls, 
15   because Mr. Moussaoui was -- his end of the call was constantly 
16   being monitored by sheriff's deputies.  They worked that out so 
17   that a phone could be -- a headset at least could be run into his 
18   cell and he'd be able to talk from inside his cell securely at 
19   his end with us. 
20             And while the telephone calls were going to be limited 
21   to ten minutes each initially, because it was tying up a line 
22   that they use in the ordinary course of business, the idea was in 
23   about a month they'd have a second line there, and we would be 
24   able to talk almost an unlimited basis by phone. 
25             Third, our motion addressed the problem that his 
 1   papers, papers we gave him and papers he returned to us, were 
 2   being searched by sheriff's deputies, and we really couldn't tell 
 3   whether they were reading them or not, but the report from 
 4   Mr. Moussaoui was they were certainly looking at them long enough 
 5   to have read them. 
 6             That was solved by an agreement that we can pass floppy 
 7   disks back and forth.  He's got a computer with a keyboard.  We 
 8   can give him a disk; he can give us disks.  The sheriffs can 
 9   inspect the disks, but they don't need to stick them in a 
10   computer. 
11             So all of the issues in the case were resolved except 
12   one, which was our efforts to try to arrange for a consultation 
13   for Mr. Moussaoui with an individual by the name of John Doe, 
14   whose name Mr. Moussaoui gave to us, and who we have interviewed 
15   and who we have felt might have helped resolve some of the 
16   problems that are apparent in what Mr. Moussaoui has presented to 
17   the Court this morning. 
18             On Friday afternoon, in an attempt to work this out 
19   with Mr. Spencer, I offered to allow Christine Gunning, the court 
20   security officer, to sit in on those conversations.  And I had 
21   previously discussed this with Mr. Moussaoui, and he didn't have 
22   any objection to it.  She would monitor the call.  She would not 
23   know who John Doe was, but if she heard anything untoward being 
24   mentioned during the call that didn't sound like religious 
25   consultation and the seeking of advice, she would be in a 
 1   position to pull the plug on the call. 
 2             I was advised that she didn't have enough training in 
 3   al Qaeda matters to be a good smoke detector, so to speak, and so 
 4   I asked Mr. Spencer:  "Well, who would you suggest?"  And he told 
 5   me that everybody that they had that could possibly perform this 
 6   function is sitting on the wrong side of the firewall at the 
 7   present time, and there's nobody on the other side of the 
 8   firewall apparently that could fulfill this role. 
 9             But obviously it's the kind of help I think we could 
10   have used earlier, and we might not be in the situation that 
11   we're in at the present time. 
12             Now I just want to point out that we have -- 
13   Mr. Moussaoui has been aware of his Faretta rights since the 
14   beginning of the representation and that his assertion of them 
15   today comes somewhat of a surprise, but not as a total surprise, 
16   to defense counsel. 
17             We believe that the case is sufficiently complicated 
18   such that even if he could get the $35,000 that he talks about in 
19   his bank account which has been frozen by the President of the 
20   United States, even if he could get that money, it's nowhere near 
21   what this defense effort is going to cost. 
22             I mean, I have been struggling for weeks with the 
23   budget for this defense, and without going into the numbers, you 
24   know, there are not many people in America that could afford the 
25   defense that he's going to need in order to have an effective 
 1   defense in this case. 
 2             There are other things that I would want to talk about, 
 3   but I'm not going to rebut Mr. Moussaoui here openly in court in 
 4   front of the government point by point, except to say that we 
 5   have tried as hard as we can to work with him in a reasonable 
 6   manner, and apparently that is not going to work. 
 7             THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Dunham, as you know, there 
 8   was some time ago a motion filed by the United States, I think 
 9   Mr. Zerkin actually responded to it, asking whether the defense 
10   was going to defend on any kind of a mental health issue.  And, 
11   of course, they wanted notification about that. 
12             In your dealing with the defendant, as an experienced 
13   attorney, is there any reason in your opinion or in the opinion 
14   of your co-counsel to believe that the defendant is in any 
15   respect suffering from any mental illness that would make this 
16   decision on his part to give up his current counsel, in any way 
17   cloud the voluntariness or knowing aspect of such a decision? 
18             MR. DUNHAM:  I am -- this defendant has been in 
19   solitary confinement for a substantial period of time, and during 
20   the course of that -- with lights on 24 hours a day --
21             THE COURT:  That, by the way, as you know, is being 
22   also somewhat ameliorated.
23             MR. DUNHAM:  That's being ameliorated, but to say that 
24   that has had no effect on him would not be a correct statement. 
25             I mean, I can't tell what the effect is, but I have 
 1   seen the difference in the gentleman during the course of the 
 2   representation, so I would be -- I'm not a psychiatrist or a 
 3   psychologist, you know, I'm not in a position to render an 
 4   opinion, but if you were to ask me could I say with 100 percent 
 5   certainty that he's absolutely clear and mentally sound, I 
 6   couldn't say that.  I have some concerns in that regard. 
 7             We -- our position was going to be we weren't going to 
 8   raise it in connection with the penalty phase if we ever got 
 9   there in this case, because that is a delicate decision that has 
10   to be made because of the things it opens up the door for the 
11   government to say and do in that phase of the case. 
12             You might have a person with mental health problems in 
13   a death penalty case where you would never raise those mental 
14   health problems in a punishment part of the case, because of what 
15   it opens the door for the government to do. 
16             So the issue of this gentleman's competency, in my 
17   view, had not reached the point where we were going to ask the 
18   Court to have an examination for him, for example, for purposes 
19   of participating in his own defense, understanding the charges 
20   against him, or as a defense to the charges themselves, but I do 
21   believe that under Faretta, a competency inquiry is warranted 
22   before the motion to proceed pro se should be granted. 
23             THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Spencer, does the United 
24   States want to be heard on this issue?  And the issue is twofold.  
25   One, of course, is the first one that is right before us right 
 1   now is the issue about whether a competency evaluation ought to 
 2   be done at this point to ensure that this waiver is a knowing and 
 3   voluntary waiver. 
 4             And, secondly, I'd also like you to address the issue 
 5   about the John Doe situation. 
 6             MR. SPENCER:  Excuse me, Your Honor.  Can Mr. Karas 
 7   address the John Doe situation? 
 8             THE COURT:  All right.
 9             MR. SPENCER:  And on the Faretta, on the question of 
10   competency, Your Honor, we've had no contact with the defendant, 
11   obviously.  And we have no way of making the same judgment.  Out 
12   of an abundance of caution, I see no objection to having a 
13   competency evaluation done in Alexandria on a quick time 
14   schedule.  And it may give the Court some peace of mind in 
15   allowing him to go forward pro se. 
16             THE COURT:  All right.  Do you want to address the John 
17   Doe situation? 
18             MR. KARAS:  As Your Honor knows from the papers that we 
19   submitted, we have deep concerns about permitting Mr. Moussaoui 
20   to speak to somebody who is refusing to be vetted as would 
21   normally be required by the restrictions. 
22             The restrictions are based on really years of 
23   investigative experience with respect to al Queda and what it is 
24   that it trains its members and associates to do, even when 
25   they're in prison.  And one of the things that it constantly 
 1   seeks to do as an organization is to monitor the court 
 2   proceedings against those who have been charged with being 
 3   members or subjects of al Queda to learn what it is the 
 4   government knows or more importantly doesn't know about what al 
 5   Queda is doing.  That includes monitoring the press clippings on 
 6   any court proceedings as well as court documents. 
 7             And one of the primary purposes behind the special 
 8   administrative measures, Your Honor, is to make sure that 
 9   Mr. Moussaoui or any al Queda member or associate doesn't have 
10   the opportunity to pass on messages, subtly coded messages to 
11   individuals who could pass on other messages to his cohorts on 
12   the outside. 
13             The procedure that is in place is not to deny 
14   Mr. Moussaoui the access to individuals who might assist in his 
15   defense but to put into place some sort of mechanism that allows 
16   us to be sure that what the person is doing is actually helping 
17   Mr. Moussaoui and not hurting the government and the national 
18   security in the ongoing war against al Queda. 
19             And the proposal on the table really undermines the 
20   very purpose of the SAM.  It just eliminates the purpose of the 
21   SAM, because what it does is under the theory that's been 
22   presented by the defense, anybody including, as we mentioned, Bin 
23   Laden or somebody who might be sympathetic to al Queda, unknowing 
24   to defense counsel, would have an opportunity to speak to Mr. 
25   Moussaoui, and even in a situation where Ms. Gunning might be 
 1   listening in on a telephone conversation, in addition to the 
 2   concerns that Mr. Dunham raised, the other concern that we have 
 3   is that it would require 100 percent vigilance.  And human error   
 4   being what it is, Your Honor, even one message could be something 
 5   that could be fatal. 
 6             So all that we ask is that John Doe go through the same 
 7   vetting procedure that other individuals who would see Mr. 
 8   Moussaoui would go through, and then we can determine whether or 
 9   not any additional restrictions are in place.  At this point 
10   we're not saying he can't go in.  He's saying he doesn't want to 
11   be vetted. 
12             And Mr. Moussaoui doesn't have a right to an individual 
13   of his choosing to speak to about his case.  There's no right 
14   whatsoever in the Constitution that gives him that opportunity.  
15   And we think that given the grave security concerns, that there 
16   really is an alternative that satisfies these concerns and at the 
17   same time we think that protecting these concerns doesn't 
18   compromise any recognized constitutional right.
19             THE COURT:  My understanding is that once the 
20   vetting -- if the vetting were done and the person were cleared, 
21   if this person is coming in as a cleric, for example, then there 
22   would not be any intrusion in the conversation between them.
23             MR. KARAS:  That's correct, Your Honor.  In fact, my 
24   understanding is that the prison officials have cleared an imam 
25   to visit with Mr. Moussaoui, and that is something that would 
 1   take place without any government supervision or monitoring. 
 2             I would say that there was an issue with the individual 
 3   that required us to perhaps suggest additional restrictions be 
 4   put in place.  We could address those when it's ripe.  But right 
 5   now we don't know anything about the individual to even make that 
 6   assessment. 
 7             THE COURT:  Mr. Spencer.
 8             MR. SPENCER:  May I address several practical 
 9   considerations within the competency evaluation, if the Court's 
10   going to go down that road? 
11             THE COURT:  Yes.  Let me finish with this motion first 
12   of all.  The defendant's motion for relief --
13             MR. DUNHAM:  Your Honor, I'm sorry.
14             THE COURT:  Yes.
15             MR. DUNHAM:  Can I just respond to one thing he said? 
16             THE COURT:  Yes.
17             MR. DUNHAM:  The problem is that Islamic scholars are 
18   not fungible, just like Protestant clerics are not fungible.  You 
19   have different sects, different beliefs, different organizations 
20   under the heading Protestant. Even under the heading Catholic or 
21   Jewish, you have different sects or segments. 
22             This gentleman we've identified is somebody that we 
23   believe Mr. Moussaoui would listen to and is somebody who I 
24   believe would give him the advice that I think he needs, because 
25   I've met with the gentleman. 
 1             So just to say that the jail's got a cleric doesn't 
 2   solve the particular problem here.  I understand the government's 
 3   security needs, and I understand the dilemma that it puts 
 4   everybody in, but I don't think that if you have Christine 
 5   Gunning listening to the call, that there are going to be a lot 
 6   of coded messages.
 7             THE COURT:  Well, based on the track record in this 
 8   case and the representations that the United States has made and 
 9   the allegations and that there's probable cause at this point to 
10   believe that the allegations are true, that's all there is is 
11   probable cause, but that means that it's not an irrational 
12   inference to believe that there may be truth to these comments, 
13   makes it too dangerous to allow unfettered access. 
14             Now again, this is one of those situations where the 
15   whole problem or most of the problem can go away if John Doe 
16   changes his or her mind.  And if the advice of that person is so 
17   critical to the well-being of Mr. Moussaoui and Mr. Moussaoui's 
18   case, you need to urge that person to change his opinion, 
19   apparently -- change his opinion and to go through the vetting 
20   process. 
21             If that person is unwilling to do so, there's nothing 
22   this Court is going to do to change the situation. 
23             All right, Mr. Moussaoui, you can go back up there for 
24   a second.  Now we're simply addressing the John Doe issue right 
25   now. 
 1             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes.  I'm addressing the John Doe issue 
 2   because this motion doesn't represent what was my concern in my 
 3   situation.  Because I told them that, first of all, I didn't want 
 4   to cry to the United States.  I didn't want to talk about light 
 5   and everything and door banging and everything, because this is a 
 6   normal condition of a prisoner.  And I said to them that I know 
 7   brother were in far worse situations than me, so not at all. 
 8             And I can entertain this by this document I drafted to 
 9   them, I proposed to them as a base for discussion.  And it is 
10   here.  There is nothing else, condition, light on, and 
11   everything. 
12             By the way, the only thing that was really annoying me 
13   was the lack -- because I have no window.  It's not even 
14   mentioned in the document, okay?  So that's the kind of care. 
15             In fact, this motion had been drafted to bring this 
16   point that the situation is very difficult for Mr. Moussaoui and 
17   he's under an oppressive condition, because they sense this, they 
18   could see me wanting to go pro se because I was becoming more 
19   pressing on the requiring books, different elements of the trial 
20   transcript, and I was asking more and more elements.  And you 
21   could very much see that this person was going to go pro se soon, 
22   okay? 
23             So that's the reason -- -- and me, why I did this, 
24   because that was the only way I could have access to the Court 
25   without them anticipate this well in advance to have a very 
 1   well-organized campaign, I would say, to smear me, to come to you 
 2   and say, "we are concerned about Mr. Moussaoui," and this and 
 3   that. 
 4             If I give them a head start, they will have been able 
 5   to engineer this in a much better manner.  So I accepted this 
 6   motion not for what is inside the motion, only to talk about 
 7   indeed the condition of confinement, would prevent me to go pro 
 8   se in a fair and free manner.
 9             THE COURT:  All right. 
10             THE DEFENDANT:  And the second point that he have 
11   addressed here, he say that he have some concern for me and 
12   especially because of the new condition. 
13             Here you have a letter that is dated on the 29 March 
14   where he say to the chief intelligence and investigative 
15   operation of the Criminal Division, he say, Mr. Moussaoui 
16   given -- at no time have Mr. Moussaoui given any indication that 
17   he would assault counsel, and he has conducted himself at all 
18   times in a nonthreatening, peaceful manner, okay?  Not in an 
19   erratic manner, nothing mentioned.  That's one thing. 
20             Concerning mental health, we had a meeting last week, 
21   and we discussed this.  We discussed the strategy.  They said 
22   that the benefit of using mental health -- very quickly.  And 
23   then I told them basically the same thing, that I wasn't going to 
24   have mental test.  And they said that at the moment we didn't see 
25   any reason for me to have one.  And I have it in a hand-draft 
 1   letter by -- written by lawyer Zerkin, who say Zacarias 
 2   Moussaoui, by counsel, state that he has no intention to 
 3   introduce any mental health testimony at the guilt or penalty 
 4   phase of the trial. 
 5             So one week ago, they didn't insist, say no, 
 6   Mr. Moussaoui, this is so crucial for us, okay?  They came to 
 7   give me one story. 
 8             But thank you to the government, through its memoranda 
 9   for the mental health, its motion, I took -- I got the 
10   information that, in fact, indeed they wanted to introduce some 
11   information. 
12             So this is a very unfair way to proceed, because they 
13   are claiming something one day and are doing something another 
14   day. 
15             So the last thing I want to address, that this motion, 
16   I rejected the motion, okay, what is inside the memorandum.  I 
17   accept the motion but not the memorandum.  The memorandum should 
18   be taken from what I will draft, I would send to the Court in due 
19   time, because I will address this issue.  And I will go further 
20   than the condition of the SAM in my, in my draft, because I want 
21   just to be able to get the information. 
22             I do not want to meet inmates.  I do not want to have 
23   contact with people outside.  I want to study my case.  I want to 
24   defend my life.  And I didn't ask them to say about things they 
25   talk about in the case, in this motion, okay? 
 1             So the government should relax.  And I have no 
 2   intention to speak with John Doe or John X, okay?  John Doe was a 
 3   door for me to access you.  When they say that we will do this, I 
 4   said okay, because I wanted to give a letter, this letter, send 
 5   it to you, and then the thing will start, okay? 
 6             But you have the intention to sideline me because you 
 7   already ask if he is still talking as my lawyer.  That will be 
 8   fine, because you are in charge, but the record will show that I 
 9   have nothing to do with them. 
10             And second thing, they have no knowledge of the case on 
11   my side, okay, a nonvital piece, as they recognize in the letter 
12   that I have here.  Okay?  I know what are my activity inside 
13   United States, abroad, in Britain, in everywhere I was.  They 
14   have no knowledge.  They want what they want.  It's a short case, 
15   where they will be in court, then Mr. Zerkin will just fight for 
16   death or no death.  Because the guilt already is conceded, if I 
17   read the different newspaper -- piece of newspaper. 
18             So I do not want them, because I do not believe they 
19   have my best interests.  They have shown direct hostility.  
20   Mr. Dunham have used a rude word against me on three occasions 
21   already, okay? 
22             So I have no intention to have these people in any 
23   manner to defend me.
24             THE COURT:  All right.  All right, Mr. Moussaoui, stay 
25   there for a second.  Let me explain to you that as I said 
 1   earlier, you have a right if I'm satisfied that you're doing this 
 2   in a knowing and voluntary manner to represent yourself, but I 
 3   have to warn you, as intelligent as you are, and you're obviously 
 4   a very smart man, and you're able to read American law books and 
 5   glean from some of the rulings, but I have to tell you that the 
 6   American legal system is complicated.  An ordinary person or even 
 7   a very bright ordinary person who walks into court and tries to 
 8   defend himself -- and I've had many other cases, including 
 9   capital cases, with defendants who have acted pro se. 
10             You will have to follow the rules of law and procedure 
11   of this Court.  You said, for example, that in your culture, you 
12   have to ask a question three times, and if the answer is the same 
13   three times, it flies.  Well, in this Court, you get to ask it 
14   once. 
15             THE DEFENDANT:  (Arabic spoken.)
16             THE COURT:  Just as an example of the cultural 
17   difference, you are in a United States court. 
18             Now if you can conduct yourself in accordance with the 
19   rules and procedure of this Court, then assuming I have found 
20   that this is a knowing and voluntary waiver under a right to be 
21   represented by counsel, you can proceed pro se.  That is your 
22   right. 
23             But the right is forfeited if you don't follow the 
24   rules.  And the rules are complicated.  And so the normal 
25   practice -- and apparently Mr. Dunham explained that to you -- is 
 1   that even when a person goes pro se, especially in a capital 
 2   case, the Court will continue to have as standby counsel 
 3   experienced lawyers who are there to help you if at some point 
 4   you realize you're in over your head. 
 5             And I am not going to therefore excuse these attorneys 
 6   who already have invested a great deal of time and effort, who 
 7   have retained people to work on your behalf, from this case 
 8   entirely. 
 9             Now it's your decision.  If you don't want to talk to 
10   them, you proceed at your own risk.  But I am not going to permit 
11   you to be in a court of law without any legal resources 
12   whatsoever. 
13             Now, if you're able to hire an attorney for yourself, 
14   that could change the dynamic.  And you have that right.  And I'm 
15   sure that these attorneys would help you --
16             THE DEFENDANT:  No.
17             THE COURT:  -- in doing that. 
18             That's your decision.  But I'm not going to grant your 
19   motion quite yet to go pro se until I've had an expert in 
20   psychiatry talk with you just for this record. 
21             I will say that from what I've seen in court today, you 
22   appear to know and understand what you're doing.  As I said, you 
23   are very bright.  You do come from a different cultural 
24   background and tradition, and you need to be careful to 
25   understand that in this court, you've got to follow these rules. 
 1             And if you start citing to authorities or practices 
 2   that are not in conformance with what happens in an American 
 3   court, you will be stopped.  All right? 
 4             I'll try to arrange for the visit as soon as possible.  
 5   And at this point, therefore, unless the doctor comes up with 
 6   something, I will find on this record that this is a knowing and 
 7   intelligent waiver of counsel, but I am not releasing counsel 
 8   from this case, because it would be impossible for this man to, 
 9   in my view, defend himself at this point without some legal 
10   resources. 
11             Now, you are going to be getting access through the 
12   Alexandria Jail, which has gone through extraordinary efforts to 
13   try to accommodate you, to have a second room available for you 
14   where you will have a computer, you will have access to the 
15   CD-ROMs under certain controls and within the security needs of 
16   the jail.  Very few, if any, prisoners have ever had that kind of 
17   access. 
18             You will be able to mount a defense.  And if you are 
19   wise, you will use what resources -- you can pick and choose what 
20   you want to use from these attorneys, but if you choose to do 
21   nothing with them, that's also your choice.  But they're going to 
22   be sitting in this courtroom throughout the trial proceedings 
23   just in case, unless you have a different attorney who has been 
24   retained. 
25             You don't have a right to pick and choose a 
 1   court-appointed attorney.
 2             THE DEFENDANT:  First of all --
 3             THE COURT:  Well, now, I've ruled.  When I rule, that's 
 4   it.  If you disagree with my ruling, when the case is over, you 
 5   take an appeal to the Fourth Circuit.  That's how the trial will 
 6   be conducted, too. 
 7             When I make a ruling, it's no different for you than 
 8   any other attorney.  If the government disagrees with what I've 
 9   said, they know they have to live with it through the course of 
10   the proceeding.  And then down the road, there's a chance to have 
11   that reviewed. 
12             You may have a seat now, Mr. Moussaoui. 
13             In terms then of the defendant's motion for relief from 
14   conditions of confinement, that motion is denied as moot in my 
15   view, as to all conditions complained about except the John Doe, 
16   and it's denied as to that.  As I said, the John Doe situation is 
17   completely remedial as long as the individual wants to be vetted. 
18             Now there are a couple of other what I will call 
19   administrative matters that we need to get addressed and even 
20   with the potential change of counsel's situation is going to have 
21   to be addressed. 
22             First is the juror questionnaire.  I assume, counsel, 
23   you've been working on that.  I know the government, and I don't 
24   know whether the defense got a copy of a questionnaire we used in 
25   the Wills case.  I'm going to set Friday, May 31st, as the 
 1   deadline for proposed juror questionnaire from each side. 
 2             I'm going to direct that you submit the questionnaire 
 3   to the Court on CD-ROM -- on a disk, rather, so that we can take 
 4   a look at it. 
 5             I would expect that the Court will go through both 
 6   proposed questionnaires, and we will determine the final 
 7   questions that are going to go on it.  But that needs to be done 
 8   in -- sufficiently in advance of the pulling together of the 
 9   jury. 
10             So that everyone can have it on their calendars, we are 
11   proposing to have the jury pool brought in on Tuesday, September 
12   17.  As I indicated previously, the jurors will fill out the 
13   questionnaire under court supervision at one time.  That's the 
14   best way of getting 100 percent return. 
15             And then the plan is that you will be getting copies.  
16   We are going to use a, obviously, an anonymous jury, but you will 
17   be getting copies of all the questionnaires and have 
18   approximately four or five days to go over the questions.  We're 
19   going to do what I did in my last case, which is basically a desk 
20   audit of the questionnaires; that is, the first review of 
21   proposed jurors will be conducted by going over the 
22   questionnaire. 
23             Each side will be allowed to indicate which jurors they 
24   want stricken and for what reasons.  My experience is that a 
25   certain percentage of the proposed jurors both sides will agree 
 1   that they want stricken.  And, therefore, I will strike them 
 2   without ever going beyond that. 
 3             There may be others where one side or the other is 
 4   pointing to a particular answer that they feel makes that juror 
 5   unqualified.  And I may determine that that's sufficient on 
 6   simply the responses or go ahead and let that juror come in for 
 7   personal voir dire.  It depends on the particular questions.  
 8   That worked very well in the Wills case, and that's what I intend 
 9   to do, something along those lines, here. 
10             And then, as we indicated before, the actual voir dire 
11   will begin in late September on the date that we previously had 
12   given to you-all.  That's the proposed plan right now. 
13             The other issues are that I want to make sure both 
14   sides know that if either side files a pleading ex parte under 
15   seal, the Court is not going to require a separate sealing order.  
16   That caption is sufficient in my view to permit that matter to be 
17   filed under seal ex parte. 
18             I review every filing, and if I determine that there 
19   really is no reason why it should not be part of the public 
20   record, I'll let you know.  But that will shorten the number of 
21   orders that you have to submit to the Court. 
22             There was an issue raised informally by defense counsel 
23   about civilian clothing for Mr. Moussaoui.  The U.S. Marshal's 
24   Service will not be providing civilian clothing for Mr. Moussaoui 
25   to attend to simply motions hearings of this sort.  Obviously, 
 1   for the trial, he will have the right to be in civilian clothing.  
 2   That can be taken care of at the trial time, but not before then. 
 3             Now, are there any other issues, Mr. Spencer, first of 
 4   all, from the United States, that you want the Court to address 
 5   since we're together at this time? 
 6             MR. SPENCER:  I just had some practical considerations 
 7   for any evaluation, competency evaluation the Court is going to 
 8   order.
 9             THE COURT:  Yes, sir.
10             MR. SPENCER:  First of all, I take it that the expert 
11   is going to be court-appointed? 
12             THE COURT:  Yes.
13             MR. SPENCER:  And a copy of any report generated will 
14   be provided to the government? 
15             THE COURT:  That's the normal practice, although, 
16   again, the only issue here is going to be competency to make this 
17   decision about waiving counsel.  That's what I ruled.
18             MR. SPENCER:  Your Honor, I see this as just a strict 
19   Butner competency evaluation without the transportation and the 
20   time down to Butner.
21             THE COURT:  I would agree with that.
22             MR. SPENCER:  All right.  And then -- so I'm presuming, 
23   Your Honor, that the effect on the motions schedule, particularly 
24   the death penalty motions coming up, the filing May 1st, it will 
25   have no effect on that.
 1             THE COURT:  That is correct.  I'm holding the motion in 
 2   abeyance.  I'm ruling on that in abeyance until I've made a 
 3   determination for certain that the defendant is not making the 
 4   decision under any kind of mental duress or mental infirmity that 
 5   might cloud it for purposes of voluntariness.
 6             MR. SPENCER:  Finally, Your Honor, just for purposes of 
 7   the record, we move that these counsel be retained as standby 
 8   counsel if the defendant chooses to go pro se.  I take it that's 
 9   the Court's ruling on that?
10             THE COURT:  That's been our practice.  I mean, again, 
11   given the experience of these attorneys, even though 
12   Mr. Moussaoui doesn't appreciate it, he has a, he has an 
13   extremely experienced set of attorneys working for him. 
14             As I said, they've retained experts already in various 
15   areas, and the only way he could even begin to have a fair 
16   defense is to have access to those resources.  If he chooses not 
17   to do so, that's his decision, but the Court's obligation is to 
18   make them available for him, and that's what we're going to do. 
19             So you can just make it as an oral motion.  I'm 
20   granting that at this point. 
21             Again, that may change.  As I said, if he retains 
22   counsel, that changes things.
23             MR. SPENCER:  I understand, Your Honor.
24             THE COURT:  That hasn't happened at this point. 
25             All right.  Is there anything else? 
 1             MR. SPENCER:  No, thank you, Your Honor.
 2             THE COURT:  All right.  Just one last thing.  It hasn't 
 3   happened yet and I don't know what the status is going to be.  I 
 4   understand that the House of Representatives is, is on the verge 
 5   perhaps of passing its version of Senator Allen's bill.  Is your 
 6   office going to take responsibility for coordinating the offsite 
 7   viewings with the victims and that sort of thing?  I see 
 8   Ms. Spinks is here today. 
 9             Is your victims unit going to be in charge of that or 
10   do you expect that's going to be out of Main Justice?
11             MR. SPENCER:  I expect that to be out of Main Justice, 
12   but I don't actually know the answer to that question.
13             THE COURT:  All right.  That's another logistical issue 
14   we're going to be needing to address, I suspect, in the next 
15   couple weeks.  That's not quite ripe yet, but it's out there.
16             All right.  Is there anything else? 
17             MR. MAC MAHON:  Your Honor, may I consult with 
18   Mr. Dunham one second?  There's one additional matter.
19             THE COURT:  Just one second, Mr. Moussaoui.
20             MR. MAC MAHON:  Just one second, Your Honor, excuse me. 
21             MR. DUNHAM:  Your Honor, I do need to bring a couple of 
22   things to the Court's attention in dealing with the Faretta 
23   issue.
24             THE COURT:  Yes, sir.
25             MR. DUNHAM:  There are CIPA issues in the case, and 
 1   Mr. Moussaoui probably will not be granted a clearance.
 2             THE COURT:  Which is another reason, I should put that 
 3   on the record, why having standby counsel who are cleared to 
 4   receive that type of information is going to be important. 
 5             While I've got you both here, it will help the Court 
 6   and will move things faster if counsel can send us some names of 
 7   psychiatrists you've used recently in this area for these types 
 8   of forensic evaluations, because I want to get this done as 
 9   quickly as possible.
10             MR. DUNHAM:  Your Honor, I also would suggest that the 
11   psychiatrist needs to be given a briefing, I believe, by counsel 
12   as to the issues in the case, because -- and the complexity 
13   involved, because the determination of competency has something 
14   to do with the competency to handle this case.  And, you know, 
15   it's a little more complicated than perhaps the Wills case was, 
16   and I do think that that -- the psychiatrist needs to look at it 
17   against that framework. 
18             And so I would suggest that we'll submit some names and 
19   maybe we can give them some observations that we have before they 
20   conduct the examination.
21             THE COURT:  Here's what I suggest.  The fastest and 
22   best way of doing this is for you and Mr. Spencer with the 
23   government team and the defense team to get together, draft, if 
24   you can for us, an order with the guidelines that you want, if 
25   you can come to an agreement on that. 
 1             As I said, I'm not granting the defendant's motion yet, 
 2   so you're still, until I've granted it, the attorneys 
 3   representing him.  We want to get this matter resolved quickly, 
 4   all right? 
 5             MR. DUNHAM:  So that brings up another question.  Your 
 6   Honor had addressed the jury questionnaire due on May 31, as if 
 7   we were the ones that were responsible for filing it.  And what 
 8   I'm going to assume is that until we receive an order granting 
 9   Mr. Moussaoui's motion, we will continue to do the things on the 
10   deadlines that the Court has set.
11             THE COURT:  That's correct.
12             MR. DUNHAM:  But once that motion is granted, I would 
13   assume that we are relieved from doing those things, such as 
14   filing motions in the case and filing jury questionnaires, if you 
15   decide that before May 31st, and that it will be Mr. Moussaoui's 
16   obligation to fulfill those requirements. 
17             THE COURT:  You'll be required to turn over to him any 
18   drafts that you've worked on.  And I'm still going to require if 
19   you stay in, if you wind up becoming standby counsel, I'm still 
20   going to require that you make efforts to communicate with the 
21   defendant about some of these deadlines and what he has to do. 
22             He can choose to reject it and then proceeds at his own 
23   risk, but yes, we'll proceed that way.
24             MR. DUNHAM:  All right.  And then I guess the last 
25   thing that I wanted to mention was, Your Honor, on this -- oh, 
 1   you said work out the details with Mr. Spencer.  We'll try to do 
 2   that.
 3             THE COURT:  Right.
 4             MR. DUNHAM:  We are concerned about just having the raw 
 5   report go to the government in the event there is material in 
 6   there that should remain privileged until trial.  So we'll work 
 7   that out with the government.
 8             THE COURT:  One way of doing it is having it submitted 
 9   to the Court for an ex parte review.  If I find that parts of the 
10   report have to be redacted to make sure there's no issue, we can 
11   do that.
12             MR. DUNHAM:  Thank you, Your Honor.
13             THE COURT:  Is there anything further? 
14             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes. 
15             THE COURT:  All right, Mr. Moussaoui, I'll let you have 
16   the last word.  Go ahead.
17             Don't say anything yet.  We have to change paper. 
18             Go ahead, sir. 
19             THE DEFENDANT:  Concerning the so-called test of 
20   competency, I have to say that, according to my information, it 
21   is to assure such a presentation so that the record will 
22   establish that he knows, the defendant, what he's doing and the 
23   choice he's making with eye open.  And his technical and legal 
24   knowledge as such is not relevant, okay? 
25             So my ability to try the case is not really what is in 
 1   question in the competency, competency information.  Because we 
 2   have in this case very, very different approach.  And it's 
 3   impossible to have two teams trying the same case, because they, 
 4   for example, okay, they want to try by jury.  And me, I want to 
 5   try by a judge.  Because of all of information and the complexity 
 6   of the case make it, make it very, very difficult for a simple 
 7   person to comprehend in a very short time, and a judge --
 8             THE COURT:  Let me stop you.  You want to waive a trial 
 9   by jury? 
10             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes.  Okay?  And I've been thinking of 
11   this since the beginning, because the complexity of the case make 
12   it that very -- you have to collate information and be able to 
13   understand concepts very quickly, and this is not very easy for a 
14   simple person.  And the only person who can grasp this kind of 
15   thing is maybe a judge, okay? 
16             So I was thinking for long time, because I was reading 
17   the transcript of embassy bombing and everything, everything is 
18   in my cell, and I discovered that the government just overwhelmed 
19   the Court of information and the people just naturally lose track 
20   of what has been said.  And at the end, they just are lost, and 
21   it's just a question of feeling you become, okay? 
22             But the judge can see through the trick of the 
23   government and will be able to assess the validity of the 
24   argument.  And also you will have documents to be able to see, to 
25   see this contradiction during the first day to the tenth day, 
 1   because inside the transcript I show to them contradiction during 
 2   the trial.
 3             THE COURT:  All right.  Now, Mr. Moussaoui, stop for 
 4   just one second. 
 5             Each side in a criminal case has a right to trial by 
 6   jury.  You can't waive the jury on your own.  The United States 
 7   would have to agree with that.  That's something down the road 
 8   that both sides may want to think about, whether it's even 
 9   possible in a capital case; we haven't looked at yet. 
10             Mr. Zerkin, do you know from your experience? 
11             MR. ZERKIN:  It is indeed possible.
12             THE COURT:  In a federal capital case? 
13             MR. ZERKIN:  Yes, ma'am, a jury can be waived.
14             THE COURT:  For both phases? 
15             MR. ZERKIN:  For both phases, that's correct.
16             THE COURT:  Well, that's something that can be 
17   discussed and thought about down the road.  Obviously, it would 
18   change the dynamics of much of this trial. 
19             But that is such a serious decision, Mr. Moussaoui, I'm 
20   not going to at this point accept this.  You need to think about 
21   that very carefully.  And, again, that's an issue that has 
22   nothing to do with the things that you're disputing with your 
23   attorneys.  You should talk to them about that. 
24             But -- wait.  But even if you have come to the decision 
25   that you want to waive the jury, the United States, if they want 
 1   a trial by jury, has an absolute right to require -- to request 
 2   that.  And the Court can waive a jury only if both sides agree, 
 3   all right?  So that's what you need to understand. 
 4             THE DEFENDANT:  I understand your point.  The second 
 5   thing concerning the appointment standby counsel.  The standby 
 6   counsel's role is exactly to inform, okay, to inform the 
 7   defendant pro se on procedure, to relieve the judge of the need 
 8   to explain the way the Court works, but here what is happening, 
 9   what you're doing is having them -- appointing them as my lawyer 
10   and going -- making investigation on their own, okay, and this 
11   will interfere tremendously. 
12             I have a very quick example, okay?  I know already that 
13   they want to develop a line of argument --
14             THE COURT:  Well, I don't really think you should do 
15   that. 
16             THE DEFENDANT:  This is my defense.  I have long time, 
17   four months to evaluate this kind of thing, okay?  So they want 
18   to talk to Mr. Attas, okay?  They want to make him pass like he 
19   have been cooperating in fact with the government.  And all these 
20   statements are not correct.  And I have been opposing this, 
21   because if this person is a truthful person, even if his 
22   statements are harmful in a sense for me, I was not inclined to 
23   demonize or to vilify or whatever somebody just because it suits 
24   me, but they have a completely different set of principles. 
25             For them, it was to approach Attas to make him believe 
 1   that he will be a friendly witness and then to turn against him, 
 2   okay?  And then saying that, in fact, because you have similar 
 3   profile with Mr. Moussaoui, you are from the Middle East and you 
 4   are also, of course, an Arab and you also are kind of 
 5   fundamentalist, okay, you find your way out of the case by giving 
 6   information to the government.  And I oppose this.  This is only 
 7   an example. 
 8             So it is impossible in practice to have them going 
 9   freely all over the world and trying to meet people that I know 
10   and they have -- and trying to do things that I'm against.  And I 
11   know that can damage my own preparation.
12             THE COURT:  All right.  That can be --
13             THE DEFENDANT:  And I can, I can hire my lawyer to only 
14   help me in the procedure. 
15             What you are proposing, that them, after four months, 
16   you tell me try to work with them.  I've been trying for four 
17   months, okay?  And now you say carry on.  Me, what I want is the 
18   ability to hire counsel that will inform me on the matter of 
19   procedure, okay.  You will tell me how to come and draft a motion 
20   properly according to United States law and you tell me how to 
21   even, let's say, adjust my presentation to the requisites of 
22   United States law. 
23             And, by the way, I'm born in France, educated -- I have 
24   a master's degree in international business.  I'm fully 
25   acquainted with western system of justice, okay?  I never live in 
 1   the Middle East country or in Arabic country, okay?  So I think 
 2   that the conception that I'm completely ignorant of the rule of 
 3   western system of justice and Anglo-Saxon, because I live in 
 4   London, okay, it's not correct.  I'm fully aware, okay, of the 
 5   western system of justice and so on. 
 6             So what you were proposing, in fact, is impractical, 
 7   and you will damage my defense and ultimately my chance to live.
 8             THE COURT:  All right, Mr. Moussaoui. 
 9             THE DEFENDANT:  And I want to have immediately the 
10   right to make an appeal and the information to address this 
11   right, because it's only to return to the cell and wait two 
12   months so I lose any credibility again, okay?  Then you cannot 
13   work like that. 
14             I want to be able to choose a lawyer, to contact this 
15   Muslim association.  This lawyer will be vetted, vetted by CIA, 
16   FBI, whatever you want, and then he will access me and tell me 
17   how to proceed. 
18             But these people, I want the record to be clear I will 
19   not receive them, speak to them from today, ever.  And the record 
20   is here to attest it.  I want the right to hire my own lawyer.  
21   And I know that the Muslim lawyer, knowing my situation, will 
22   work free for me until I am released. 
23             So the fact that I don't have money, it is not at all 
24   an issue, because I know that prevented me to open a bank account 
25   in a Muslim bank because I wanted them, that the people, they 
 1   will know that I need help and some money will be sent to me. 
 2             They said no, because the government will capture your 
 3   money.  But the government, they didn't capture my money within 
 4   some bank.  Only if it's in the Muslim bank the government will 
 5   capture it.  But when the government sees that the money is put 
 6   by them, it's okay, I have money in the bank, despite that's 
 7   apparently forbidden.
 8             THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Moussaoui, what we're going 
 9   to do, as I said, we're going to have a psychiatrist checking you 
10   over in the cell.  And I'll make my final decision about whether 
11   I'm permitting you to proceed pro se based upon that report.  
12   Thank you. 
13             All right.  We'll remand -- oh, Mr. Moussaoui, we want 
14   a copy of the document that you read to the Court.  If that's 
15   your only copy, we'll make a photocopy and it will be returned to 
16   you.
17             THE DEFENDANT:  Okay.
18             THE COURT:  Do you have it there?  You can give it to 
19   the marshal.
20             THE DEFENDANT:  Yes.  You want it now? 
21             THE COURT:  Actually go on into the cellblock and we'll 
22   go ahead and get it from you there.  All right? 
23             The marshals may take Mr. Moussaoui back to the 
24   cellblock. 
25             (Defendant out).
 1             THE COURT:  All right, we'll recess court. 
 2                            (Which were all the proceedings had
 3                            at this time.)
 6                      CERTIFICATE OF THE REPORTER
 7        I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript of the 
 8   record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter. 
                                        Anneliese J. Thomson