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1 December 2005.
The second $12,017 E-gold conversion check to Cryptome from R.L. Wahl/Analog Exchange has cleared. Mr. Wahl telephoned to ask that this notice be published. The first check from Wahl /Tampa Exchange also cleared then bounced a few days later. Still no response from E-gold to a submission of supporting materials for a complaint.
24 November 2005
Cryptome has received another check by Fedex from R.L. Wahl for $12,017.00, not a certified check or money order requested after the first check bounced. This one, dated November 21, 2005, is drawn on the account of Analog Exchange, 5202 Windlaff Ave., Tampa, FL 33625, and will be sent through the system to see what happens.
Additional reader comments added.
Some have objected to accusing E-gold of helping the Tampa Exchange run a scam. Cryptome believes the scam could not work without E-gold's participation, that E-gold's denial of culpability for exchange services advertised on its web site is only an attempt to escape responsibility (E-gold is not the only online financial service that uses this deception).
There is no way to withdraw funds from E-gold except by using an exchange service, thus E-gold enforces the use of those services to get real money.
Cryptome never agreed to the denial policy, nor to anything connected with E-gold. An account for Cryptome was set up at E-gold by another party to foster use of the service. E-gold needs to be hammered, as should the other online financial services, to own up to real world accountability, otherwise they are Nigerian scammers.
There has been no further response from E-gold to an abuse complaint and follow-up submission of supporting material.
22 November 2005
These are responses to Cryptome being stiffed for $12,000 by an E-gold conversion service, R.L. Wahl d/ba/ Tampa Exchange. The first item is a series of emails between Cryptome and Wahl and E-gold, sent to E-gold Abuse last night as requested, which summarizes the matter.
Note that the last item is an early 22 Nov 2005 email from Wahl which provides a Fedex tracking number, presumbably for a good check. A Fedex tracking inquiry this morning answers: "Not found. No information for the following shipments has been received by our system yet. Please try again later or contact Customer Service."
Cryptome was given an account by E-gold when it was begun, and R.L. Wahl has converted small amounts previously without problem.
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 19:33:35 -0800 To: <abuse@e-gold.com> From: John Young <jya[at]pipeline.com> Subject: RE: [e-gold-abuse] This is a fraud complaint agains ... [PR: WDXPRBSY] Dear E-Gold abuse, In response to your e-mail today (copy at the end of this message), attached is my my email correspondence with Tampa Exchange. I also tried to telephone Tampa Exchange on November 18, and got only an answering machine upon which I left a message. The evening of November 18 Tampa Exchange (Rob Wahl) left me a telephone message claiming its bank account was abruptly closed without prior notification. I have archived this message. Tampa Exchange posted on its web site overnight November 19/20 a notice that the site was closed due to family illness. See: http://www.tampaexchange.net/cash.html E-gold remains responsible for the $12,200 lost through your web site's offering a link to a fraudulent exchange services. I expect E-gold to reimburse me for the full amount. If you do not reimburse me for the full amount I will lodge a fraud complaint against E-gold and Tampa Exchange with the authorities having jurisdiction. This matter is being publicized on my website, Cryptome.org. John Young ----- Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 06:46:48 -0800 To: rwahl2@tampabay.rr.com From: John Young <jya[at]cryptome.net> Subject: E-Gold Payment for Check 3 November 2005 Paid To: 514050 (www.tampaexchange.net) Amount: 12200.00 US Dollars' worth of Gold From: 101771 1) Full Name: John Young 2) Telephone Number: 212-873-8700 3) E-gold Number: 101771 4) Amount You Are Exchanging: $12,200.00 5) Address To Send Check To: 251 West 89th Street, New York, NY 10024 Thanks very much, John Young ----- From: "R.L.Wahl Tampa Exchange" <rwahl2@tampabay.rr.com> To: "John Young" <jya[at]cryptome.net> Subject: Re: E-Gold Payment for Check Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:32:56 -0500 check mailed ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Young" <jya@cryptome.net> To: <rwahl2@tampabay.rr.com> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:46 AM Subject: E-Gold Payment for Check >3 November 2005 > Paid To: 514050 (www.tampaexchange.net) > Amount: 12200.00 US Dollars' worth of Gold > From: 101771 > > 1) Full Name: John Young > 2) Telephone Number: 212-873-8700 > 3) E-gold Number: 101771 > 4) Amount You Are Exchanging: $12,200.00 > 5) Address To Send Check To: 251 West 89th Street, New York, NY 10024 > > > Thanks very much, > > John Young ----- Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 06:07:43 -0800 To: "R.L.Wahl Tampa Exchange" <rwahl2@tampabay.rr.com> From: John Young <jya[at]cryptome.net> Subject: Re: E-Gold Payment for Check Your check for $12,017.00 was returned to my bank on November 17, 2005. Would you please promptly send to me by overnight Fedex a certified check or money order for that amount plus an additional $10.00 for the returned check charge. Thanks very much, John Young ----- From: "R.L.Wahl Tampa Exchange" <rwahl2@tampabay.rr.com> To: "John Young" <jya[at]cryptome.net> Subject: Re: E-Gold Payment for Check Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 18:32:05 -0500 Will send another payment, our bank closed our account without any reason or warning. I'm very sorry for this, its really embarrassing for me.........Rob ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Young" <jya@cryptome.net> To: "R.L.Wahl Tampa Exchange" <rwahl2@tampabay.rr.com> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 9:07 AM Subject: Re: E-Gold Payment for Check > Your check for $12,017.00 was returned to my bank on November 17, 2005. > Would you please promptly send to me by overnight Fedex a certified check or > money order for that amount plus an additional $10.00 for the returned check > charge. > > Thanks very much, > > John Young ----- Reply-To: <abuse@e-gold.com> From: "EG Abuse" <abuse@e-gold.com> To: <jya[at]pipeline.com> Subject: RE: [e-gold-abuse] This is a fraud complaint agains ... [PR: WDXPRBSY] Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 16:07:52 -0500 Organization: E-gold Mr. Young, Please email www.tampaexchange.net and carbon copy us on your email to them. www.tampaexchange.net is a totally separate company from e-gold Ltd, but if they do not reply to your email we will attempt to contact them on your behalf. Thank You, e-gold Abuse -----Original Message----- From: jya[at]pipeline.com Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 5:25 PM To: 55m60E6X_abuse@e-gold.com Subject: [e-gold-abuse] This is a fraud complaint agains ... [PR: WDXPRBSY] Submitter IP: 24.199.119.115 CATEGORY: ABUSE Customer Name: John Young Email: jya[at]pipeline.com Phone: 212-873-8700 Fax: e-gold Batch: e-gold Account: 101771 Question: This is a fraud complaint against RL Wahl/Tampa Exchange, for issuing me a worthless check for $12,017.00, after I transferred $12,200 e-gold to the service as follows. 3 November 2005 Paid To: 514050 (www.tampaexchange.net) Amount: 12200.00 US Dollars' worth of Gold From: 101771 RL Wahl sent me a check for $12,017 on November 9, 2005, which was returned to my bank on November 17, 2005. Wahl claims his bank abruptly closed his account without notice. I ask that E-Gold reclaim my $12,200 from E-Gold Account 514050. And to remove the listing of RL Wahl from your web site. Thank you very much, John Young
From: "ListManagerSQL" <ListManagerSQL@talk.e-gold.com> Reply-To: "ListManagerSQL" <ListManagerSQL@talk.e-gold.com> To: jya[at]pipeline.com Subject: RE: RE: [e-gold-abuse] This is a fraud complaint agains ... [PR: WDXPRBSY] Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 19:40:51 -0400 --- You sent email to <abuse@e-gold.com> --- This e-mail is an automated response triggered by your recent e-mail to the above referenced e-mail address. e-gold.com does not presently read e-mail sent to this e-mail address due to the overwhelming amount of spam directed to this address. So that we may efficiently process and investigate your abuse report, we request that you submit via the customer service form on the e-gold website. 1. Go to the e-gold website. 2. Click the "Contact" link at the top of the page. 3. Make sure to select "Abuse Reports" from the "Category of Question" dropdown before submitting your report. We apologize for any inconvenience.
Reader responses follow:
Subject: e-gold Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 16:18:43 -0500 "Could be the authorities intervened to stop payment to Cryptome" - BINGO
19 Nov 2005 You got swindled.
20 Nov 2005 Check the message at Tampa Exhange http://www.tampaexchange.net/cash.html [Which states: "Due to a family emergency we are closed until further notice"
21 Nov 2005 You might wish to inform the e-gold list of this. I will do all that I can to help (which is less than you probably think, sadly) but I hope you'll use OmniPay (my exchange) in the future. I hope it is not due to govt., but one never knows. Again, my sympathy is with you, and I'll do everything I can on this. If you like, I will inform the e-gold list, it's at talk.e-gold.com
21 November 2005 Mr. Young, Sorry to read of your recent problems with Tampa Exchange. I was suprised to see this however: "E-gold denies responsibility for any problem with conversion of its digital vapor for hard cash. Stuff that, E-gold. If you can't assure conversion to cash you're running a criminal racket, or worse, a government sting." If you are the sort of e-gold user who requires five figures' worth at a time, surely you are familiar with both the e-gold user agreement and e-gold's general practices and history. e-gold is not "digital vapour," e-gold is not responsible for the actions of any of its merchants or exchangers, and e-gold does not provide conversion between fiat currencies and the four G&SR e-metals. To say that e-gold is responsible for the actions of one of its exchangers is like saying that Bank of America is liable if you send a cheque which is deposited into a BoA account for a transaction which later proves to be a fraud. I am a regular visitor to Cryptome.org and find myself very often on the same side of an issue as yourself. However, in this case, to attempt to hold e-gold culpable for the apparent failings of an unrelated third party is both disingenuous and irresponsible. All that said, I do sincerely hope that you see a swift and satisfactory resolution to your problem with Mr. Wahl.
21 Nov 2005 I wouldn't sweat-out your problem with Wahl too much. I'm sure he'll fulfill his obligation to you. I know someone who had $12,000 held by NetBank for exactly one year, without any communication from them. He reported them to the appropriate regulatory agency, and hired a lawyer, and was basically told that they could withhold the money for up to a year, with no questions asked. Paypal withheld $5500 from me without any reason. They forced me to acquire a lawyer to threaten them, which resulted in a return of the money after over a month. People don't realize how much risk they take, when they put their money in the hands of other people. I would be angry if something like what happened to you, happened to me, but there's not a lot you can do. It's not e-gold's responsibility.
21 Nov 2005 http://maps.google.com/maps?q=5202+Windloff+Ave,+Tampa,+FL+33625ll=28.077651,
-82.550776&spn=0.004937,0.011446t=h&hl=en [Images of two Florida business filings by R.L. Wahl from 2002 to 2005 were provided,
those for 2005 shown here.] R.L. WAHL TAMPA EXCHANGE, INC.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PRINCIPAL ADDRESS 5202 WINDLAFF AVE TAMPA FL 33625 US Changed 01/13/2003 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MAILING ADDRESS 5202 WINDLAFF AVE TAMPA FL 33625 US Changed 01/13/2003 Document Number P01000038113 FEI Number 593713208 Date Filed 04/16/2001 State FL Status ACTIVE Effective Date NONE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Registered Agent Name & Address WAHL, ROBET LEWIS 5202 WINDLAFF AVE TAMPA FL 33625 Address Changed: 01/13/2003 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title WAHL, ROBERT LEWIS 5202 WINDLAFF AVE TAMPA FL 33625 D -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Annual Reports Report Year Filed Date 2003 01/13/2003 2004 04/05/2004 2005 05/02/2005 [Note the fraudlent officer name, Wawl, Robert Lewis, in this Florida filing.] ANALOG EXCHANGE, INC.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PRINCIPAL ADDRESS 5202 WINDLOFF AVE TAMPA FL 33625 Changed 01/13/2003 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MAILING ADDRESS 5202 WINDLOFF AVE TAMPA FL 33625 Changed 01/13/2003 Document Number P02000030024 FEI Number 270005222 Date Filed 03/19/2002 State FL Status ACTIVE Effective Date NONE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Registered Agent Name & Address WAHL, ROBERT LEWIS 5202 WINDLOFF AVE TAMPA FL 33625 Name Changed: 01/13/2003 Address Changed: 01/13/2003 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title WAHL, ROBERT LEWIS 5202 WINDLOFF AVE TAMPA FL 33625 PVTS WAWL, ROBERT LEWIS 5202 WINDLOFF AVE TAMPA FL 33625 DCM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Annual Reports Report Year Filed Date 2003 01/13/2003 2004 04/05/2004 2005 04/30/2005
From: "R.L.Wahl Tampa Exchange" <rwahl2@tampabay.rr.com> To: "John Young" <jya[at]cryptome.net> Subject: Re: E-Gold Payment for Check Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 03:40:41 -0500 Our bank closed our account without any warning, sorry for the trouble, FEDEX # 8530 8644 0999 ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Young" <jya[at]cryptome.net> To: "R.L.Wahl Tampa Exchange" <rwahl2@tampabay.rr.com> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 9:07 AM Subject: Re: E-Gold Payment for Check > Your check for $12,017.00 was returned to my bank on November 17, 2005. > Would you please promptly send to me by overnight Fedex a certified check > or > money order for that amount plus an additional $10.00 for the returned > check > charge. > > Thanks very much, > > John Young > > > At 05:32 PM 11/3/2005 -0500, you wrote: >>check mailed >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "John Young" <jya[at]cryptome.net> >>To: <rwahl2@tampabay.rr.com> >>Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:46 AM >>Subject: E-Gold Payment for Check >> >> >>>3 November 2005 >>> Paid To: 514050 (www.tampaexchange.net) >>> Amount: 12200.00 US Dollars' worth of Gold >>> From: 101771 >>> >>> 1) Full Name: John Young >>> 2) Telephone Number: 212-873-8700 >>> 3) E-gold Number: 101771 >>> 4) Amount You Are Exchanging: $12,200.00 >>> 5) Address To Send Check To: 251 West 89th Street, New York, NY 10024 >>> >>> >>> Thanks very much, >>> >>> John Young >>>
Reader comments added November 24, 2005
22 November 2005 [cc of email to Wahl] I'm a reporter with CNET News.com and am interested in what transpired between you and John Young. I read the correspondence on his Cryptome site. Is it reproduced in full? If so, can you explain what happened to the missing $12,000?
22 November 2005 It was Omnipay, not e-gold, which took you to dinner, in hopes of getting your business. We didn't, obviously, but it's not e-gold's fault that you chose a cheaper alternative and are now in difficulty due to that decision, as Frank M. [?] has also said. I will help you all I can, but a bit of honesty on who's actually responsible from your end will go a long, long way. e-gold EXPLICITLY disclaims liabilities of ALL of the independent exchangers (not just Wahl, even OmniPay!) so you really should try to make that a bit more clear, IMO. Currently, you are in effect blaming the Federal Reserve for a local bank's possible perceived failure, when in fact the entity to blame might be neither a exchanger or any issuer of money, but rather the government.
22 November 2005 This is 100% apart from my earlier "use OmniPay dammit" rant! And you needn't answer, of course (I'd never look anyway!) but did you really sell THAT many CDs, that you had 12 Grand worth of e-gold? If so congrats, and regardless of how you got the gold I hope Wahl's contents of this fedex don't bounce, but it would be nice if you could clarify that e-gold (which lacks a bank account, but has a disclaimer* on its web page) isn't involved in this... * http://www.e-gold.com/unsecure/disclaimer.html
23 November 2005 e-gold really isn't at fault here in any way. It looks a lot like Wahl's bank actually DID close his account without warning, which they do often. Usually exchange providers keep accounts with a few banks for this reason. The FedEx number doesn't become active for about a day after being sent through a retail location, but it is active now. If it were me, I'd apologize to e-gold and if Wahl's check arrives correctly in a couple days, good. Otherwise, recourse should be against Wahl.
23 November 2005 Several readers noted that Wahl's Fedex package had been picked up and delivered to Cryptome.
23 November 2005 The check has, I presume, arrived? The question is, is it "good"? I suspect that Wahl's "closed account" was the result of certain "interventions" directed at cryptome.
It looks like tampaexchange.net, aaztecgold.com, and abgoldcommerce.com are all run by the same person(s) -- checkout the contact info on the pages below: http://www.abgoldcommerce.com/exchange.htm http://www.aaztecgold.com/Sell.htm Note the "family emergency" message on this page: http://www.abgoldcommerce.com/cash_depo.html It looks they they also ran the now defunct liquidgolds.com http://web.archive.org/web/20030806002553/http://liquidgolds.com/ Below is the November 15, 2001 whois info for liquidgolds.com Registrant: l. quistad's liquid gold 7210 N. Manhattan Ave., #613 tampa, fl 33614 US Domain: liquidgolds.com Administrative Contact: (null) ((null)) (null) (null) (null) (null), (null) (null) (null) (null) (null) (FAX) Technical Contact: (null) ((null)) (null) (null) (null) (null), (null) (null) (null) (null) (null) (FAX) Billing Contact: (null) ((null)) (null) (null) (null) (null), (null) (null) (null) (null) (null) (FAX)
24 November 2005 I am a resident of the state of Florida, and a stone's throw from the address listed for Tampa Exchange. As a long time fan and supporter of Cryptome, I would be more than happy to help you track down the culprits involved in the scam as well as hold them accountable from a legal perspective in the 13th Judicial Circuit in and for Hillsborough County Florida.