26 March 1998
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:02:34 -0500 To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> Subject: Re: Blind Signatures Digital Cash in Russia? --- begin forwarded text From: "Maksim Otstavnov" <maksim@volga.net> To: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:16:49 +0400 Subject: Re: Blind Signatures Digital Cash in Russia? (In fact, I'm not on the list the original msg CC:'ed to, but I think my comments on Bob's msg can be useful enough to forgive my netiquette violation. Anybody interested is welcome to answer personally.) > So, I'm talking to somebody from Russia about the wonders of digital bearer > settlement recently :-), and this morning he comes back to me saying he's > starting to hear of several people there who are planning on issuing > Chaumian blind signature digital cash, with payee anonymity, even. The first prototype (PayCash by Tavrichesky Bank) is live at http://195.5.138.171 and those who read Russian are welcome. I hope the English version of the site contents and software will be available soon. > I don't know if they're denominating things in dollars, or rubles, or what, > and I certainly don't know if this is really true, which is why I'm here > asking you guys here about it. Their current denomination is "petty rubles", "petty yens", "petty dollars" and "petty liras". With petty banking and exchange, of course. > I always thought (though I now don't know why I think so) that the blind > signature patent holds in Russia, but, as the world's only um, > anarchocapitalist, society ;-), Russians may honor patents in the breach > more often than not. Algorithms are not patentable in Russia. Programs, chips topologies and databases are protected as copyrighted stuff. > I'm not saying that Russia's a cakewalk these days, but it *is* interesting > to note the current Russian state (or lack thereof) is about as old as the > commercial internet, that not many people use Moscow city phone system > because there are 22 voraciously competing cellphone companies, MGTS (formerely Moscow state phone monopoly) still has some 90% of Moscow market. Introducing of per-time charges on local calls this year may change this. > In the interest of brevity, we'll ignore their, um, geodesic market for > armed personal force for the time being, but maybe things have calmed down > now that their mafia has figured out they can do all the "hostile" bank > takeovers they want, but ownership doesn't a bank make... Armed personal force is distributed rather in feudal centralized model than geodesically... in Russia as well as anywhere else, alas... > Anyway, I haven't heard of a Russian ecash licensee, certainly. I heard of several banks and financial companies who tried to apply for ecash(tm) license but negotiations failed. (I have no first-hand evidence though). I humbly think there is something wrong with DigiCash's terms. With all respect for DigiCash technological excellence and Dr. Chaum's distinguished role in "privacy marketing", their PR... aren't the best PR I have seen ;) One more comment: we actully don't need the full interoperability. If Tavrichesky or anybody else issue "real" currency, it would be enough to have a market of secondary services of exchanges, e.g. Tavrichesky's erubles to MTB's edollars, or MTB's edollars to Tavrichesky edollars etc. The exchanges might be located in some friendly jurisdiction - Anguilla, to say, or Grand Cayman. Another comment: current Russian banking rules do not allow fully anonymous banking. But there is at least one ex-Soviet jurisdiction allowing and encouraging it, Ukraine. (I'm not sure of Baltic states, Latvia being the most probable candidate). > If done in dollars, all that seignorage, and there would be bunches just in > Russia alone, would be a boon for the Russian balance of payments account, > certainly. Really? Anybody can audit _national_ payment balance concerning anonymous ecash? ;) But if there are any realistic arguments (on how to improve national payments balance by encouraging anonymous DBSs) I will discuss them with Central Bank officials. One opportunity is to have Russian Central Bank to back private banks' e-currency (according to Lysyanskaya/Ramzan recently proposed architecture, or anything alike). Though, ceteris paribus, I would prefer experimenting with fully private currencies ;) Just much more fun. > In addition to Russians not having to haul those pictures of Ben around, > Americans, and the rest of the world, for that matter, could start to > safely keep and spend their cash on the net, while, of course, earning some > Russian entrepreneur both purchase premia and seignorage. An interesting question: who have seinorage on eurodollars? Might "an enterpreneur" in question be the Gov (either federal, or, to say, Moscow)? > Irony, thy name might be Russia? You're virtually welcome... Thank you Bob for initiating this topic! Cheers, -- Maksim Otstavnov <maksim@volga.net> http://www.ice.ru/otstavnov/ -- - chief, Labs of Civil & Financial Crypto -- - editor, "CompuNomika" monthly -- - maintainer of The Russian PGP HomePage --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/