25 May 2004
Source: Digital file from Southern District Reporters Office; (212) 805-0300.
This is the transcript of Day 5 of the trial.
See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ssy-dt.htm
Lynne Stewart web site with case documents: http://www.lynnestewart.org/
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1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 ------------------------------x
2
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
3
4 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK)
4
5 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar,"
5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART,
6 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY,
6
7 Defendants.
7
8 ------------------------------x
8
9
9 New York, N.Y.
10 May 25, 2004
10 10:45 a.m.
11
11 Before:
12
12 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL
13
13 District Judge
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1 APPEARANCES
1
2 DAVID N. KELLEY
2 United States Attorney for the
3 Southern District of New York
3 ROBIN BAKER
4 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO
4 ANTHONY BARKOW
5 ANDREW DEMBER
5 Assistant United States Attorneys
6
6 KENNETH A. PAUL
7 BARRY M. FALLICK
7 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar
8
8 MICHAEL TIGAR
9 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE
9 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart
10
10 DAVID STERN
11 DAVID A. RUHNKE
11 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry
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1 (Trial resumed)
2 THE COURT: Good morning all. Please be seated.
3 Mr. Dember, I noted the other day that we were
4 beginning late and I thought I was right, that the reason that
5 we began a bit late the other day was that there was a problem
6 of lack of communication with the marshals. We are beginning
7 late today because of a similar issue.
8 MR. DEMBER: That is not my understanding at all. Ms.
9 Baker can speak more intelligently about this.
10 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, my office had placed what we
11 refer to as a standing order with the Marshals Service that
12 starting last Wednesday with the beginning of voir dire that
13 Mr. Sattar be produced for trial every day until further order.
14 This morning when Mr. Sattar was not produced, when he
15 belatedly did get here, I spoke with the two deputies who
16 arrived with him and asked them to confirm to me that in fact
17 there is a standing order in place and they confirmed that
18 there is.
19 I asked whether that is in fact the proper procedure
20 for getting Mr. Sattar produced every day and they confirmed
21 that it is and that there is nothing else that the government
22 appropriately needs to do to make that happen. And that it was
23 essentially a internal miscommunication or lack of somebody
24 within one of the sections of the Marshals Service taking the
25 appropriate step to make it happen.
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1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 Can you follow up with the Marshals Service?
3 MS. BAKER: Yes, your Honor. I will call Mr.
4 Guccione, who is the marshal, and make him aware that we have
5 had delays on more than one occasion so far and ask him to
6 please instruct that the order be more carefully complied with
7 in the future.
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 Juror 148 has a medical emergency upstate with an
10 elderly parent and will be available on June 1st.
11 We have Jurors 145, 146, 149, 153, 154, 157, 158 and
12 159 who are here.
13 Juror 156 is not here yet, or Mr. Fletcher didn't
14 believe that 156 was here. Whether 156 is on his or her way, I
15 don't know.
16 So let's begin with Juror 145.
17 (Juror present)
18 BY THE COURT:
19 Q. Good morning, Juror 145.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. Good to see you.
22 A. Thank you.
23 Q. Since you were here last has anything changed concerning
24 your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has anything
25 occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a fair and
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1 impartial juror in this case?
2 A. Nothing has changed.
3 Q. Okay.
4 It now appears that the date that the final jury will
5 be chosen will be Monday, June 21st, so after today it's
6 unlikely that you will be asked to call in before June 18th.
7 Does that present any serious hardship for you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
10 this case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
11 the case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
14 any conversations here at the courthouse or with any other
15 prospective jurors?
16 A. No.
17 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
18 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And let me go over some of the answers on the
21 questionnaire.
22 You had indicated that serving as a juror would not be
23 a serious hardship but you did point out that you are currently
24 serving as executor of your mother's estate.
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. We don't sit -- we only sit until about 4:30 every day. We
2 don't sit on Fridays or weekends. Is there anything about your
3 serving as an executor that would prevent you from being a
4 juror in this case?
5 A. The only issue would be that in fact the estate attorney
6 doesn't work Fridays so I would have to see him possibly once a
7 month or so until everything is settled, and it would have to
8 be a Monday to Thursday meeting, but they are usually no more
9 than about an hour.
10 Q. Okay. We can make exceptions.
11 The other thing is perhaps if you simply told him that
12 you were on a jury without telling him anything else about the
13 case and tell the lawyer that the judge asked if he could
14 possibly see it clear that he could at least give you an hour
15 of his time on a Friday it would be --
16 A. It's possible. He doesn't even come into the city on
17 Friday.
18 Q. Or at the end of the day.
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Okay.
21 You mentioned that you have a father and brother who
22 live in Israel. Is there anything about that that would
23 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You have told us that you were a juror in 7 cases and of
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1 those 7 cases how many were criminal?
2 A. I served on 2 federal criminal cases. The state were
3 mostly civil and they all settled prior to deliberations
4 concluding.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. Or prior to deliberations.
7 Q. All right. Have you served on any federal civil cases?
8 A. No.
9 Q. The 2 federal criminal cases that you served on, about when
10 was that?
11 A. 1975 my first jury duty and about 8 years ago was the other
12 one.
13 Q. And what was the case about in 1975?
14 A. Narcotics.
15 Q. And about 8 years ago?
16 A. Narcotics.
17 Q. Is there anything about your experience in any of those
18 cases, your experience with the court system, with the
19 participants in the court system, with any of those cases, that
20 would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this
21 case?
22 A. No, not from past experience, no.
23 Q. You indicated that you were a witness in Housing Court for
24 your parents many years ago, and they were in the process of
25 suing to evict a tenant. Anything about that experience that
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1 would prevent you from we being a fair and impartial juror in
2 this case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You mentioned that someone in your family and a close
5 friend were victims of crime. Can you just -- well, your note
6 is that you have 3 brothers and a friend, all of whom were
7 robbed, is that right?
8 A. Yes, it was all muggings, yes.
9 Q. And were any people prosecuted in connection with those
10 crimes?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Is there anything about that experience that would prevent
13 you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You mentioned that your oldest brother was accused of
16 stalking and charges were dismissed.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Anything about that that would prevent you from being a
19 fair and impartial juror in this case?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You were a nurse investigator in medical malpractice cases,
22 is that right?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. And you testified in those cases?
25 A. No, sir. It was all prelitigation.
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1 Q. Prelitigation, okay.
2 Anything about that experience would that prevent you
3 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Your mother was a volunteer for Legal Aid. How long ago
6 was that?
7 A. Pretty much until right before she died. So that was
8 February.
9 Q. I am sorry?
10 A. She volunteered up until the end of last year.
11 Q. Okay.
12 Anything about that that would prevent you from being
13 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
14 A. No.
15 Q. There were a series of questions which asked you about
16 certain kinds of evidence that might be admitted, such as
17 evidence from electronic devices known as bugs or wiretaps, and
18 the possibility that there may be conversations between
19 attorneys and their clients that might be admitted. And you
20 told us that the wiretap information would not prevent you from
21 being fair and impartial but only if legally obtained, and you
22 expressed questions about attorney-client privilege
23 conversations because you believe firmly in the privilege.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Let me explain something, and then I will ask you some
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1 other questions.
2 If any evidence is introduced in the course of the
3 trial, it is because I have found that the evidence can be
4 admitted, that it's legally admissible in court, and so it's up
5 to the jury to determine whether the charges in the indictment
6 are proved beyond a reasonable doubt based on the evidence or
7 the lack of evidence in the case. And the jury is to consider
8 all of the evidence or lack of evidence in the case in
9 determining whether the charges are proven beyond a reasonable
10 doubt.
11 There is a common charge which says government
12 investigative techniques are not the jurors' concerns. The
13 jurors' concern is whether the charges in the indictment have
14 been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. So it's not for the
15 jurors to second guess whether my rulings on the law are
16 correct or incorrect, as to whether the evidence should have
17 been admitted or not admitted. Nor is it up to the jurors to
18 say I like that kind of evidence or I don't like that kind of
19 evidence. It's up to the jurors to say there is the evidence,
20 I will consider the evidence, and determine whether the charges
21 are proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
22 So let me ask you whether any of your feelings or
23 thoughts about wiretap evidence or conversations between
24 attorneys and their clients, any of those feelings or beliefs
25 that you have would prevent you from following my instructions?
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1 A. I don't think so. I think I would be able to follow
2 instructions. I couldn't, you know, as much as I think I am
3 able to. I have done it in the past, follow the instructions.
4 Q. You know, the ultimate issue, and you are a very
5 knowledgeable and sophisticated person having served on many
6 juries, is to think about yourself and your commitments to be a
7 fair and impartial juror and I go through all of these issues
8 to raise the questions with you so that you can look at those
9 questions and say yes or no whether I will be fair and
10 impartial, whether that is an issue that would prevent me from
11 being a fair juror in this case.
12 So I have explained the kinds of evidence that may be
13 admitted. I have told you that it would be admitted because I
14 have found that it is admissible. So you tell me, will you be
15 a fair and impartial juror in a case which may contain evidence
16 like that?
17 A. Based on that question, yes, I could be. I am not
18 convinced I could be in this case but based on that question,
19 yes. You are saying evidence is admissible, that is what I
20 would judge the case on, admissible evidence.
21 Q. You say you are not sure you could be fair and impartial in
22 this case. Tell me why?
23 A. I read a lot about this case prior to being called.
24 Q. Right.
25 A. It disturbed me a lot and I am not sure considering what I
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1 thought about it prior to here and not having heard any
2 evidence, I am not sure I would actually be able to overcome
3 how I felt prior to coming in here.
4 Q. Well, what did you feel prior to coming in that you are not
5 sure you can overcome?
6 A. To be honest, I am not sure I could be fair to the
7 prosecution. I felt very strongly when I even heard about the
8 arrest that it was not something I could understand and I was
9 kind of upset about it. My family tends to be a little left
10 wing so we have somewhat of a bent that way. It bothered me a
11 lot. I did read about this case, as I said, prior to being
12 called in. And that is why I said what I did about
13 admissibility and legality. I understand what you are saying,
14 that you would not allow any evidence that is not, but that is
15 my concern.
16 Q. Okay.
17 People bring them their concerns. The question is
18 whether -- and I will go over, if you wish, in more detail
19 exactly what you have heard and read about the case. Any case
20 that receives some publicity before trial people will have seen
21 and heard and there will be some things that are written that
22 are right and there are some things that are written that are
23 wrong, and certainly nothing that has been written is evidence.
24 So you would have to listen to the evidence or lack of evidence
25 and my instructions on the law. And you say you told me a few
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1 moments agriculture not sure that you could do that.
2 Tell me, if you were chosen as a juror could you put
3 aside anything that you have seen or heard about the case and
4 under your oath as a juror decide this case based solely on the
5 evidence or lack of evidence in the case and my instructions on
6 the law?
7 A. I would certainly try as hard as I could. I believe I
8 probably could, but I am just concerned that there is that
9 little piece in the back of your head that has been there all
10 along. I would certainly try to do it only on the evidence. I
11 don't know if I would hear the evidence differently than
12 perhaps people would want me to hear it. As you said, we all
13 bring our own baggage. We all interpret differently. I would
14 try. And I think I probably could, but --
15 Q. You see, the parties, both sides in a case, and people
16 bring them all sorts of things, but both sides in the case are
17 entitled to jurors from a cross section of their community who
18 either because they haven't heard very much about the case or
19 because what they have heard hasn't influenced them or because
20 what they have heard has not so deeply moved something within
21 them, the parties are entitled to the jurors who say I will
22 decide this case based only on the evidence or lack of evidence
23 and based upon what I have heard, seen or read I tell you under
24 my oath that that is what I will do, not I will try my best.
25 You know, there is a pretty good chance I will do that.
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1 The parties are entitled to know that the jurors will
2 do that. So you have to tell me, and I will explore further
3 what you have seen, heard, read, but would you be able in this
4 case to decide the case based solely on the evidence or lack of
5 evidence and my instructions on the law despite anything that
6 you have seen, heard or read?
7 A. I think so is the best I can give you. I am sorry, your
8 Honor. I understand what you are asking me but --
9 Q. Do you have any concerns or doubts in your mind whether you
10 could do that?
11 A. I really do. I have very strong feelings about this case
12 long before the jury notice came to me. I would like to
13 believe I could do it impartially the way I am supposed to and
14 have done, but I don't know.
15 Q. Okay.
16 Could you step out?
17 A. Sure.
18 (Juror absent)
19 THE COURT: I am prepared to excuse the juror.
20 MR. DEMBER: The government moves to excuse her for
21 cause. Obviously she has indicated she cannot assure us she
22 can be fair and impartial.
23 MR. RUHNKE: We don't oppose that, your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25 (Juror present)
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Juror number 145, I will excuse you.
3 I very much appreciate your having participated in the
4 process and all of your efforts in the questionnaire and on
5 being so candid in talking to me today and you can go home now
6 and all the paperwork will be taken care of by mail.
7 A. Okay. Thank you, your Honor. I am sorry.
8 Q. Sure. Oh, no, all you can do is to explain to me honestly
9 and truthfully what your answers to the various questions are.
10 So I appreciate your participation.
11 A. Thank you.
12 (Juror absent)
13 THE COURT: 146.
14 (Juror present)
15 BY THE COURT:
16 Q. Good morning, Juror 146.
17 A. Hello.
18 Q. It's good to see you.
19 Let me ask you some preliminary questions. Since you
20 were here last has anything changed concerning your ability to
21 serve as a juror in this case or has anything occurred to you
22 that may affect your ability to be a fair and impartial juror
23 in this case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. It appears that the date that the final jury will be chosen
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1 in this case now will be Monday, June 21st. So after today you
2 won't have to call back until June 18th.
3 Does that schedule pose any serious hardship for you?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
6 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
7 the case?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
10 anyone here at the courthouse or any of the other prospective
11 jurors?
12 A. No.
13 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors
14 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Let me follow up on some of the questions. You mentioned
17 that your spouse, I believe, was in the Army in Vietnam?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. Is there anything about that that would prevent you from
20 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
21 A. No, I don't think so.
22 Q. There is nothing about that that raises any questions in
23 your mind about being fair and impartial in this case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You mentioned that your husband was sued in two malpractice
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1 cases. Can you tell me what happened in those lawsuits?
2 A. He was found not guilty in both of them.
3 Q. Could you speak into the microphone.
4 A. He was found not guilty in both of them. One was when he
5 first started in practice.
6 Q. I am sorry --
7 A. The first lawsuit was when he first started in practice,
8 and the second one I believe was settled before he got to
9 court. He was not found guilty in either one of them.
10 Q. Okay.
11 Is there anything about those experiences or about
12 your reactions to the court process or any of the participants
13 in the process that would prevent you from being a fair and
14 impartial juror in this case?
15 A. I don't think so, no.
16 Q. You mentioned that some of your husband's distant family or
17 friends came from Israel years ago?
18 A. His parents had actually traveled through Israel when they
19 left what was Russia, Poland at the time. They were married in
20 Israel and they came to the United States.
21 Q. I am sorry?
22 A. They were married in Israel, his parents, and came to the
23 United States. They were traveling through there on their way
24 from Russia and Poland.
25 Q. Is there anything about that that would prevent you from
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1 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
2 A. No, I don't believe so.
3 Q. You mentioned that you socialize with a friend who was born
4 in Egypt and moved to the United States and that was many years
5 ago.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is there anything about that that would prevent you from
8 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
9 A. No, I don't believe so.
10 Q. You have never served as a juror before?
11 A. I was selected but the case was resolved before I even got
12 to hear any of the opening testimony.
13 Q. What kind of a case was that?
14 A. It was a robbery case.
15 Q. And after you were selected nothing happened on the case?
16 A. No.
17 Q. So you never actually served?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Was that in federal or state court?
20 A. It was state court.
21 Q. How long ago was that?
22 A. Approximately 4-1/2, 5 years ago.
23 Q. Is there anything about that experience or any of the
24 participants or the process that would prevent you from being a
25 fair and impartial juror in this case?
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1 A. No. I was actually impressed with the court system at that
2 time. How it worked, yes.
3 Q. Okay.
4 You mentioned that you have read books about the
5 history of the Middle East and its people. Are there any ones
6 that stand out in your mind?
7 A. No, I read them quite a few years ago, just general
8 information about the history of the Middle East.
9 Q. Okay.
10 You told us that you heard about the defendants in
11 this case from newspaper articles. Can you tell me what it is
12 that you recall reading about the defendants?
13 A. I believe it was in the New York Times magazine article
14 that I read about the lawyer involved in the case. What I
15 remember about it was mainly it was a lot about her family.
16 Q. I am sorry?
17 A. There was a lot about her family life. I really don't
18 remember too much about it. It was a while ago.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. That is about all.
21 Q. Let me ask you another question. You also said that you
22 had heard of Sheikh Abdel Rahman. Tell me what you heard or
23 read about him.
24 A. Well, I know he was involved in the original bombing of the
25 world trade towers. I know the case was resolved.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 A. I don't know any specific details about that case.
3 Q. Okay.
4 Now, with respect to the publicity that you have seen,
5 either about Sheikh Rahman or the defendants in this case, if
6 you were chosen as a juror in this case you would be required
7 to follow some very simple instructions, namely, you would have
8 to decide this case based upon the evidence or lack of evidence
9 in this case and not on the basis of anything you may have
10 seen, heard or read before. You have to ask yourself whether
11 the charges in this case have been proven beyond a reasonable
12 doubt at trial based upon the evidence or lack of evidence
13 received in court because that is what fairness and justice
14 requires that you do. That is the way in which the system
15 works. It doesn't work on publicity or other things that may
16 be out there or anything other than the evidence that is here
17 in court.
18 So is there anything that you have seen, heard or read
19 that would prevent you from doing that, from being a fair and
20 impartial juror and deciding the case based solely on the
21 evidence or lack of evidence?
22 A. No, I think I could do that. I believe I could do that if
23 I was asked to.
24 Q. And would you do that?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. You also mentioned that you had a previous stockbroker who
2 died in 9/11, although you only met him once, and this case has
3 nothing to do with 9/11. The charges in this case don't
4 concern 9/11 and none of the defendants in this case are
5 charged with having anything to do with 9/11. So this case
6 doesn't involve 9/11.
7 Is there anything about your previous stockbroker
8 being killed in the World Trade Center that would prevent you
9 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You have told us about the one story that you read about
12 one of the defendants, and I have gone over that with you. I
13 also asked you whether you had discussed the case with anyone
14 and you said yes, and you heard others discussing it on the
15 radio.
16 Can you tell me what you heard?
17 A. I believe I was listening to WABC --
18 Q. WABC?
19 A. Yes. And I can't remember the gentleman's name. I don't
20 listen to him that often, he was a lawyer also who said that he
21 was friendly with the defendant and something about her trial.
22 That is all you I remember him talking about. It was Ron Kuby,
23 I believe, who had mentioned it on the radio.
24 Q. Okay.
25 Is there anything about that, what you heard on the
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1 radio, that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
2 juror in this case, listening to the evidence or lack of
3 evidence?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You responded about how you heard this on the radio. I
6 wasn't sure if you were also trying to tell me that you
7 recalled discussing this case with other people.
8 A. I don't believe I ever have, no.
9 Q. Okay.
10 It's likely that there will be ongoing media attention
11 to this case and so I will instruct the jurors that they are
12 not to look at or listen to or read anything to do in
13 connection with the case. If they should see something in the
14 newspapers, they should just turn away because what happens in
15 court when the jury is here listening to the evidence is what
16 counts for the jurors, and so they will have the best
17 opportunity to hear and listen to all of the evidence and so
18 they shouldn't look at or listen to anything else to do with
19 the case.
20 Will you follow that instruction?
21 A. Certainly.
22 Q. And can you do that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You had answered "yes" to a question that asked would
25 following the court's directive pose any difficulty for you,
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1 but it was in a line of questions and all of the answers were
2 yes, so I thought it might be a mistake.
3 A. It was a mistake and I apologize.
4 Q. No, no, I just wanted to make sure I understand what you
5 were saying.
6 If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would
7 be required to decide this case based solely on the evidence or
8 the lack of evidence and in accordance with my instructions on
9 the law.
10 Will do you that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. As you can tell from all of my questions the fundamental
13 issue is whether there is anything in your personal history or
14 life experience, whether I have asked you about it specifically
15 or not, that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
16 juror, so let me ask you one final time whether there is
17 anything, whether I have asked you about it specifically or
18 not, that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
19 juror in this case?
20 A. No. I don't believe there is anything.
21 Q. Okay. Thank you.
22 Could you step out for a moment?
23 (Juror absent)
24 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I did did not notice this on
25 my first reading of the questionnaire but at question 86 the
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1 juror had used the words "in general" when asked if she had any
2 bias or feelings about people from the Middle East.
3 THE COURT: I will follow up on that.
4 MR. TIGAR: Next, from doing the arithmetic about her
5 husband's parents' marriage in Israel, and having come down she
6 says from either Poland or Russia, depending on the geography,
7 were husband's parents Holocaust survivors?
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 MR. TIGAR: And where was her husband born? He has
10 been a doctor for about 30 years. I am sorry, it says
11 Brooklyn. I am reminded, your Honor, that I didn't read
12 carefully.
13 Finally, she had read the New York Times magazine
14 article and she says that there was a lot about her family
15 life, referring to Lynne Stewart. I would ask your Honor to
16 ask what does the juror remember reading about Ms. Stewart's
17 family life.
18 Your Honor is smiling but the reason for that is the
19 picture featured prominently Ms. Stewart seated next to her
20 husband, who is an African-American, and --
21 THE COURT: I will think about that. It strikes me
22 that she has already said she recalls about the family and
23 there is nothing about the article that would prevent her from
24 being fair and impartial and she has been very straightforward.
25 I will think about that.
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1 Okay.
2 MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Anything else?
4 Okay.
5 If these questions don't produce anything that suggest
6 a challenge I will ask the juror to return on June 18.
7 Call her in.
8 (Juror present)
9 BY THE COURT:
10 Q. Just a few follow-up questions.
11 In response to a question on the questionnaire whether
12 you had any negative feelings or opinions about persons of
13 Middle Eastern descent or people of the Islamic faith, you said
14 "no, in general."
15 What did you mean?
16 A. I am surprised you didn't ask me that before. I meant Bin
17 Laden. I can't imagine --
18 Q. I am sorry?
19 A. I was thinking in my own mind Bin Laden. I don't know how
20 you could at least think negative thoughts about Bin Laden and
21 he fit the question.
22 Q. All right.
23 I have told you that this case is not about 9/11 nor
24 none of the defendants are charged with anything to do with
25 9/11. There may be evidence in the case which arises that does
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1 concern Bin Laden. If any such evidence arose what you would
2 have to do is to ask yourself in the same way as with any other
3 evidence, you would have to ask yourself what is the evidence,
4 or lack of evidence, and based upon the evidence or lack of
5 evidence are the charges in the indictment proven beyond a
6 reasonable doubt? And could you do that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Would the fact that there might be evidence about Bin Laden
9 prevent you from doing that?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You mentioned, and I certainly don't mean to pry, that your
12 husband's parents came from abroad many years ago. Were your
13 husband's parents Holocaust survivors?
14 A. No. They left before.
15 Q. I am sorry?
16 A. They left way before.
17 Q. Okay. You mentioned that you had read the one New York
18 Times article about the one lawyer's family -- well, about the
19 one lawyer and one thing you mentioned about that was you
20 remember about the family. Do you recall anything specific
21 about the family from the article?
22 A. Actually, no, not really. I just remember a picture of the
23 apartment. I read the article a long time ago and I only
24 partially read it. I didn't read it in detail but, no, I don't
25 remember details at all.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 Now, is there anything about that article that would
3 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. All right.
6 A. I have very little memory of it.
7 Q. I am sorry?
8 A. I have very little memory of the article itself.
9 Q. You have --
10 A. I have very little memory of the article itself.
11 Q. Okay.
12 And of course you will follow my continuing
13 instructions not to look at or listen to or read anything to do
14 with the case and certainly not go back and look at anything
15 just because I mentioned or talked to you about it, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay.
18 Please, I am going to ask you to come back on June
19 18th. Actually I am going to ask you to call in on June 18th
20 and Mr. Fletcher will give you a slip of paper just to give you
21 the details.
22 Please remember to follow my continuing instructions.
23 Please don't talk about the case at all with anyone. Remember
24 not to look at, listen to or read anything to do with the case.
25 Please remember to keep an open mind until you heard all of the
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1 evidence, I have instructed you on the law and you have gone to
2 the jury room to begin your deliberations if you are a juror
3 chosen for the case. Fairness and justice to the parties
4 requires that you do that.
5 All right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 (Juror absent)
9 THE CLERK: 149.
10 THE COURT: I should say, and it was clear from the
11 record, but there were no further questions and no challenges.
12 MR. RUHNKE: That is right, your Honor.
13 (Juror present)
14 BY THE COURT:
15 Q. Please have a seat.
16 Good morning, juror 149. It's good to see you.
17 Since you were here last has anything changed
18 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
19 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
20 fair and impartial juror in this case?
21 A. I think two things. One, I would find it incredibly
22 difficult not to discuss it. I am sure --
23 Q. Please go a little slower and speak into the microphone
24 because otherwise I can't understand.
25 A. Okay.
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1 It will be incredibly difficult for me not to discuss
2 this when I get home. I am sure every evening I will be
3 tempted to discuss it with my husband. That is one thing I
4 thought about.
5 And the second is that I work with middle school
6 children, adolescent children who are at risk, and perhaps a
7 year out of their lives is a bit much for me to deal with. I
8 have a summer program that is starting this year.
9 Q. Well, first of all, the difficulty about not talking about
10 the case is a difficulty which every potential juror has. And
11 it's simply a requirement of assuring a fair and just
12 determination for the parties.
13 A. I realize the reasoning but I can tell you I will go home
14 and discuss it, and that is the truth.
15 Q. Well, you know, you are telling me in advance that I will
16 give you an order which is binding as a matter of law, and you
17 will simply ignore it?
18 A. I will find it difficult.
19 Q. People find many things in their lives difficult. The
20 question is will you abide by the order if you were chosen as a
21 juror in this case not to talk with about it?
22 A. Probably not.
23 (Continued on next page)
24
25
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. All right. You should really think about what the
3 consequences for you are about knowingly and willfully simply
4 disobeying court orders. You should think about that.
5 A. Yes, I know.
6 Q. And you should think about that as you contemplate the
7 responsibilities of citizenship, including the importance that
8 you would place on having a fair and impartial juror if you
9 were involved in a case in any way. So while you think about
10 that, could you step out?
11 (Juror absent)
12 THE COURT: I'll excuse the juror.
13 MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: The government agrees?
15 MR. DEMBER: Yes, your Honor.
16 THE COURT: All right. Let's bring in 149.
17 (Juror present)
18 BY THE COURT:
19 Q. All right. Juror 149, I will excuse you. All of your
20 paperwork will be taken care of by the mail and sent to you,
21 and you can now go home.
22 A. Okay.
23 (Juror absent)
24 THE COURT: 153.
25 U.S. MARSHAL: 153.
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1 (Juror present)
2 BY THE COURT:
3 Q. Good morning, Juror 153.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. It's good to see you.
6 A. Thank you.
7 Q. Juror 153, since you were here last, has anything changed
8 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
9 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
10 fair and impartial juror in this case?
11 A. You mean since I filled out the questionnaire?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. No.
14 Q. And it now appears that the date that the final jury will
15 be chosen in this case will be Monday, June the 21st. So you
16 wouldn't have to call back until June the 18th. Does that
17 present any serious hardship for you?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about
20 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
21 the case?
22 A. I didn't spoke about the case, but because of my line of
23 work, I had to explain to my customer that I may not be in for
24 awhile because I'm involved, whatever. But I didn't speak
25 about the case.
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1 Q. Okay. Did you just tell them it's a long trial?
2 A. Yes, I did. I told them that a few trial -- I didn't say
3 it was one trial, and it would be between four and six months,
4 it depends on what trial I would be in.
5 Q. Okay, fine. And has anyone spoken to you about the case
6 or -- and that includes any conversations here at the
7 courthouse or with other prospective jurors?
8 A. I don't think -- no, I don't think so.
9 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
10 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
11 A. We didn't even say a single word.
12 Q. Okay. Mention that you would not be paid while you were on
13 jury duty, but that it would not be an economic hardship for
14 you?
15 A. Not hundred percent, I mean, I'm a working person, I mean,
16 I have to pay my bills. But I think I will be able to do it.
17 But not -- I mean, it's a little struggle in there.
18 Q. But it's not going to be --
19 A. I mean, no, it's not which will real, real cause me
20 bankruptcy or thing like that, no.
21 Q. Okay. And you know -- you're a barber?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And we don't work on here on Fridays or Saturdays and we
24 break at about 4:30. So if you wanted, in terms of scheduling
25 your own appointments for your regular customers or so, I just
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1 point that out to you. And as I explained to you earlier also,
2 you'll be paid $40 a day, and then $50 a day, depending on how
3 long the case goes, as additional income for you. I just point
4 that out for. You?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. You told us that you served on one jury case about four
7 years ago. How long did that last?
8 A. One week.
9 Q. Okay. And was that in state or federal court?
10 A. Was over here someplace. I don't know where it was, but it
11 was in this area.
12 Q. Okay. And that was a civil case. Do you --
13 A. It was something about -- I think it was a civil case. It
14 was something about -- she thought that she was discriminated.
15 Q. Okay. And that case was -- don't tell us what the verdict
16 was, but you and the other jurors reached a verdict in that
17 case?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And is there anything about that experience or your
20 experience with the Court or the -- any of the parties or the
21 lawyers or the process that would prevent you from being a fair
22 and impartial juror in this case?
23 A. No.
24 Q. There were a few questions on the one page that you
25 skipped, you probably didn't see the page.
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1 A. Oh, could be. I know one or two, I did not understand the
2 word so I didn't want to make a mistake, so I didn't answer it.
3 Q. Okay. I'm going to go over the questions with you where
4 you did not answer. You mentioned that you rely on television
5 to get any news. Is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you watch any particular television news programs?
8 A. Yes, I think it's Fox, Fair Balance, I think they call it.
9 Q. Do you use a computer?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And other than for minor traffic violations and your jury
12 service, have you ever been in court before such as a witness
13 or a plaintiff or a defendant?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Or a victim? No?
16 A. No.
17 Q. There were a series of questions about your experience with
18 various aspects of the criminal justice system. You were asked
19 have you ever been the victim of a serious crime.
20 A. No.
21 Q. And I should ask these questions about both yourself and,
22 to your knowledge, any family members or close personal
23 friends. Anyone a victim?
24 A. No.
25 Q. No. Have you or any member of your family or close
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1 personal friend ever brought criminal charges against someone?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Have you or a member of your family or a close personal
4 friend ever sued someone? Brought a lawsuit against anyone?
5 A. Just for a car accident.
6 Q. Okay. Was that you or --
7 A. My wife.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. But the car was mine. But the accident was my wife was
10 involved.
11 Q. And --
12 A. Small claim court, it was.
13 Q. And what happened with that lawsuit?
14 A. We won.
15 Q. Was it settled or did it go to --
16 A. No, it went to small court, small claim court.
17 Q. Okay. Is there anything about that experience with the
18 process or any of the participants that would prevent you from
19 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
20 A. No, Sir.
21 Q. Did you do that yourself or did you get a lawyer to do
22 that?
23 A. No, I went myself.
24 Q. Have you or your -- anyone in your family or close personal
25 friend ever been sued by someone?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. There -- you may hear testimony in this case from expert
3 witnesses. Do you have any feelings about expert witnesses
4 that would prevent you from reaching a fair and impartial
5 verdict in this case based solely on the evidence presented
6 here in court?
7 A. I'm sorry, but what do you mean by expert witness?
8 Q. That is a good question. An expert witness is a witness
9 who is permitted to testify about matters based upon the
10 training, education, experience of the witness. And he or she
11 is permitted to testify in order to assist the jurors in
12 reaching a conclusion about the evidence in the case. The
13 witness is permitted to testify because they have certain
14 special expertise, special knowledge or training that can be of
15 assistance to the -- to the jury. So, for example, in some
16 cases there are people who are expert in chemistry or various
17 forms of science or lots of other fields of specialized
18 expertise. And those witnesses are allowed to testify and the
19 jurors have to listen to the testimony and assess that
20 testimony in the same way as they would the testimony of other
21 witnesses to determine whether they're giving credible,
22 believable testimony or not; and you can take into account the
23 regular ways in which you assess whether the person is telling
24 you the truth. And you can also consider the person's
25 expertise and any reasons that the person is testifying in
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1 determining how much, if any, of that testimony to accept.
2 So that's what an expert is.
3 A. Okay. In the chemistry, things like that, I do believe it.
4 But I don't believe psychiatry. If it's somebody -- my
5 personal thing. I don't think anybody can read in somebody
6 else mind.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. But as far as chemistry, things like that, yes, I do
9 believe.
10 Q. If you were chosen as a witness -- if you were chosen as a
11 juror, what you'd have to do is to listen to all of the
12 witnesses and determine whether you find that they're credible
13 or not credible, based upon an analysis of all of the testimony
14 of the witness. And you wouldn't be able to simply say, Well,
15 as a matter of principal, I don't accept testimony from such a
16 witness. You have to listen to the testimony of each witness
17 and assess the credibility of that witness. And then you
18 discuss it with all of your fellow jurors after listening to
19 all of the testimony of that witness.
20 Can you do that?
21 A. I believe so.
22 Q. Okay. Will you do that?
23 A. Definitely, if I am going to be chosen.
24 Q. Okay. One of the defendants is a lawyer. Do you have any
25 personal views about lawyers that would prevent you from
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1 reaching a fair and impartial verdict in this case based solely
2 upon the evidence presented here in court?
3 A. Can you explain a little bit by this way -- I know is a
4 lawyer, why should they be treated different than another
5 person? I don't understand.
6 Q. You're absolutely right. I was just trying to make sure
7 that there was nothing about the fact that one defendant was a
8 lawyer that would cause you to treat that person any
9 differently from any other person.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. Any other person.
12 A. Okay, yeah. The only thing, Sir, I feel if a lawyer breaks
13 the law, which she is a part of the law or he is a part of the
14 law -- but with the lawyer, well, I think she's guilty one and
15 a half because she knows -- you know, if I break the law, which
16 I don't even know, that's -- it's a little stupidity on my
17 part. But the lawyers, which is part of the law, which knows
18 everything, I think he should be more careful to break the law
19 than me or somebody else.
20 I don't know if that answers your question, Sir.
21 Q. Well, you started off by saying that, no, you don't see any
22 reason that any person should be treated differently just
23 because they're a lawyer.
24 A. No, for some crime, no -- I don't know. I go over it
25 again. I mean, I feel if you know the law, I mean, somebody --
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1 sometime you can break the law unwillingly or whatever, but
2 lawyers, which knows all the law and all the point, then he's
3 willingly to break the law, maybe you have to, you know, take
4 that into account, too.
5 Q. Okay. If you were chosen as a juror, you would have to ask
6 yourself whether with respect to each of the defendants,
7 considering the evidence against each of the defendants
8 separately, whether the government had proven the charges in
9 the indictment against that defendant beyond a reasonable doubt
10 based solely on the evidence or the lack of evidence. So you
11 would have to ask yourself with respect to each of the
12 defendants, including the defendant who's a lawyer, whether the
13 charges against that lawyer and the other defendants, looked at
14 individually, whether the government has proven those charges
15 beyond a reasonable doubt.
16 Now, you -- and you'd have to give a fair and
17 impartial consideration to each of those defendants and
18 consider the evidence or lack of evidence against each of the
19 defendants. So that's what I'm trying to find out, whether you
20 would do that for each of the defendants, including the
21 defendant who's a lawyer.
22 A. Well, I don't think just because a lawyer automatic that
23 she's guilty. Definitely you have to find -- have to look and
24 prove, whatever, demonstrate it. I didn't mean just because
25 it's a lawyer, automatically she can be guilty or he can be
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1 guilty. I mean, definitely have to see the proof, whatever the
2 government brings in.
3 Q. Is there -- would you be able to be a fair and impartial
4 juror in a case where one of the defendants is a lawyer?
5 A. I have nothing against lawyers. I have never had anything
6 to do with the lawyers. I have customers are lawyers. I have
7 nothing against lawyers.
8 All I said, if some lawyers breaks the law -- I didn't
9 say she say or he is automatically guilty. But should find
10 guilty in the case, because it's a lawyer, maybe the punishment
11 be a little bit harsher than somebody else. That's what I was
12 trying to come out. I don't know if I made myself clear.
13 Q. Okay. Do you go into this case with any belief that the
14 defendant who is a lawyer is, or any of the other defendants,
15 is guilty of the charges in the indictment?
16 A. I only saw the lawyer once on television. And I was change
17 channel, and this came out, and they mention the lawyer, which
18 was this blind man, and now they said that she's accused. But
19 I was changing channel, I change it again. And I didn't know
20 much about -- I don't know much about the case with this people
21 they indicted. The only thing I know, this blind man, which
22 was part of the building that went -- bomb it. And that
23 they've been found guilty. That's what I know about the case.
24 Nothing else I know.
25 Q. Okay. But what I'm asking you is do you go into the case
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1 with any sort of belief that any of the defendants --
2 A. No, Sir.
3 Q. -- are guilty of any of the charges?
4 A. No, Sir. I don't know much about. So I cannot make a
5 judgment without knowing anything.
6 Q. Okay. One other thing that you mentioned in the course of
7 discussing this is that you said you were -- you had some views
8 with respect to the issue of punishment. One of the things
9 that I tell jurors is that the issue of punishment is for the
10 Court alone. That's not for the jurors, and no juror can take
11 that into account.
12 Will you follow that instruction?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All right. Is English your first language?
15 A. No. It's Italian.
16 Q. Can you tell us where your parents were born?
17 A. Italy.
18 Q. And when did your -- did your parents come here or?
19 A. Yes. First my father; and then I came; and my mother come
20 later.
21 Q. And about when was that?
22 A. My father came in, I think, '57. I come in '58. But I
23 don't remember when my mother -- my mother came like four or
24 five years later.
25 Q. Okay. Can you tell me where your wife was born?
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1 A. Italy.
2 Q. And when did she come here?
3 A. '69.
4 Q. Have you ever traveled outside the United States? Have you
5 ever gone outside the United States after you've come here?
6 A. Oh, yeah. I go every year, I go back to Italy.
7 Q. And have you or anyone you know ever worked in any capacity
8 anywhere in the Middle East, including but not limited to
9 Afghanistan, the Arab Emirates, Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Kuwait,
10 Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria and
11 Yemen?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You mentioned that you have seen Lynne Stewart on
14 television. Can you tell me what you recall seeing on
15 television about Lynne Stewart?
16 A. I just mentioned before, I got to repeat the same thing. I
17 just was change channel, and she come out, and the announcer
18 said that she was the lawyer for the blind man, and now she's
19 been accused of pass information to some people. But I changed
20 station, and I don't know what's happened after.
21 Q. All right. And similarly, you were asked whether you had
22 heard anything about Sheikh Abdel Rahman, and you said, Yes,
23 that he is a leader of a criminal organization.
24 A. That's what I heard from television, that he was the head
25 of some kind of organization, which they put the car bomb on
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1 the Twin Tower.
2 Q. Anything else that you recall?
3 A. No.
4 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would have
5 to listen to the evidence in the case and decide the case based
6 solely on the evidence or lack of evidence in the case. Will
7 you do that?
8 A. Definitely.
9 Q. Now, with respect to anything that you've seen or heard, I
10 can tell you that it's a matter of law that jurors have to put
11 aside anything that they've seen or heard. And what they have
12 to do is to ask whether the charges in the indictment are
13 proved beyond a reasonable doubt, based upon the evidence or
14 lack of evidence that's received here in court. They can't
15 consider anything that they saw, heard or read in the
16 newspapers or the TV. That's not evidence. It may or may not
17 be right. But the only thing the jurors can consider is what
18 they hear in court.
19 Do you understand that?
20 A. Yes, Sir.
21 Q. And is there anything that you've seen or heard or read
22 that would prevent you from deciding this case solely on the
23 evidence or lack of evidence received here in court?
24 A. No, Sir.
25 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, as I say, you
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1 would be required to decide the case based solely on the
2 evidence or lack of evidence and my instructions on the law.
3 Would you do that?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. As you can tell from all of my questions, the fundamental
6 issue is whether there's anything in your personal history or
7 life experience, whether I've asked you about it specifically
8 or not, that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
9 juror in this case, so let me ask you one final time whether
10 there's anything, whether I've asked you about it specifically
11 or not, that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
12 juror in this case.
13 A. I don't -- I cannot -- I mean, I cannot think anything
14 about. I don't know. I don't know what to say. Because I
15 don't think I have anything. I try to think about, but I
16 cannot come out -- I wish I could come out with something. But
17 I can't.
18 Q. I know it's a long trial. And you're a very conscientious
19 person, and you've answered all of my questions and you've
20 indicated to me that you've thought long and hard about this.
21 So let me ask you one final time whether there's anything,
22 whether I have asked you about it specifically or not, that
23 would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this
24 case.
25 A. I wish I could say yes, but I can't. No, I don't think
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1 there is anything.
2 Q. Will you be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
3 A. I would try my best, if I should be in it.
4 Q. Is there anything you know of what would prevent you from
5 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
6 A. No, Sir.
7 Q. Okay. Will you step out, please?
8 A. Thank you, Sir.
9 (Juror absent)
10 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, in addition to the language
11 issue in a case that involves a great many documents, we have
12 the following very specific concern: In discussing lawyers,
13 the juror began by saying, Why should a lawyer be treated
14 differently? And then, he said, But the lawyers should be more
15 careful; then he is willingly to break the law. That's what I
16 heard the juror say.
17 Now, every one of the counts here against Miss Stewart
18 charges a so-called specific intent offense in which the
19 question will be, depending on the language the Court chooses
20 to use, whether the government has proven that Miss Stewart
21 intentionally violated a known legal duty. And the term
22 "willfully" or terms such as willfully are going to be used.
23 So it appears that we have a juror who is more willing to
24 believe that a lawyer would know the law and therefore is
25 already halfway to believing that the lawyer intentionally
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1 violated a known legal duty by virtue of her status as a
2 lawyer. That's what the juror said, and that's the conclusion
3 that we draw. And while -- thus, the determination is, where's
4 the burden of proof here?
5 We respectfully suggest that there's at least a doubt
6 here that the juror is fair, and on that basis, we challenge
7 for cause.
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 MR. RUHNKE: We join, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: I'm sorry?
11 MR. RUHNKE: We join.
12 THE COURT: Government?
13 MS. BAKER: Your Honor very carefully followed up on
14 some of the juror's earlier responses to the questions about
15 lawyers, and in response to your later questions, he said that
16 a lawyer would not be automatically guilty, and my
17 recollection, my notes are that he specifically said that the
18 government would need to prove the lawyer's guilt, and that he
19 has nothing against lawyers. And then in a later statement he
20 said, in words or substance, if the lawyer is guilty. So the
21 government submits that he did, overall, indicate -- in fact,
22 he answered affirmatively to your question, would he be fair
23 and impartial to a lawyer defendant; and that his other answers
24 support that conclusion. And thus, there is not a basis for a
25 cause challenge.
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1 THE COURT: I agree. It's not a challenge for cause.
2 He is an extraordinarily conscientious, thoughtful person. I
3 followed up extensively with respect to all of his views about
4 this case and about lawyers, and it's clear to me that he has
5 searched his mind as to whether there is any basis to believe
6 that he will not listen to the evidence or lack of evidence and
7 my instructions on the law and decide the case fairly and
8 impartially based upon the evidence or lack of evidence and my
9 instructions on the law. And he answered all of those
10 questions. And I followed up at great length with him.
11 I have assessed his credibility and he is plainly a
12 person who would follow the laws scrupulously, listen to the
13 evidence or lack of evidence, hold the government to its burden
14 of proof, and would be a fair and impartial juror.
15 So it's not a challenge for cause. Let's bring back
16 the juror.
17 (Juror present)
18 BY THE COURT:
19 Q. Good afternoon, 153. I'm going to -- you're still involved
20 in the jury selection process, but you won't have to call in
21 again until June the 18th. And then you will receive
22 instructions on June the 18th, and Mr. Fletcher will give you a
23 slip of paper to tell you where to call.
24 It's very important that you continue to follow my
25 instructions. Please, don't look at or listen to anything to
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1 do with the case. If you should see something, just turn away.
2 Remember not to talk about the case or anything to do with it.
3 Remember, as I'll tell all of the jurors, please, keep an open
4 mind until you've heard all of the evidence, I've instructed
5 you on the law, and you've gone to the jury room to begin your
6 deliberations. Fairness and justice to the parties requires
7 that you do that. All right?
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. Thank you, Sir.
10 (Juror absent)
11 DEPUTY CLERK: 154.
12 THE COURT: Did someone need a break?
13 MS. BAKER: If we could have five minutes, your Honor,
14 I'd appreciate it.
15 THE COURT: Okay, we'll take five minutes.
16 (Continued on next page)
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1 THE COURT: Good afternoon all, please be seated.
2 Juror 303 is unavailable from June 1st to June 4th, is
3 available June 7th, faxed a cruise summary to the jury
4 administrator. Unless the parties have any desire to read the
5 cruise summary I will leave it with the jury administrator. So
6 I have noted on my list that juror 303 will not be available
7 until June 7th.
8 Now we have juror 154.
9 (Juror present)
10 BY THE COURT:
11 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 154.
12 A. Good afternoon.
13 Q. Let me ask you some preliminary questions.
14 Since you were here last has anything changed
15 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
16 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
17 fair and impartial juror in this case?
18 A. No.
19 Q. It now appears that the final jury will be chosen on
20 Monday, June 21st. So after today you won't have to call back
21 until June 18th. Does that present any serious hardship for
22 you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Sips you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
25 this case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
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1 the case?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
4 any conversations here at the courthouse or with any other
5 prospective jurors?
6 A. No.
7 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors
8 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You mentioned that you were retired from the New York City
11 Department of Corrections and when did you retire?
12 A. August of 2001 -- 2002, I am sorry.
13 Q. August 2002?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And is there anything about your prior employment that
16 would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this
17 case?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Now, one of the things that -- one of the instructions that
20 I give is that no witness is entitled to any greater or lesser
21 credibility simply because of their occupation and so no law
22 enforcement officer is entitled to any greater or lesser
23 credibility simply because they are a law enforcement officer.
24 You would have to assess their credibility in the same way as
25 you would the credibility of any other witness. Would you do
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1 that?
2 A. I could, yes.
3 Q. Okay.
4 And will you follow that instruction?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you mentioned in response to another question when I
7 asked it that when you filled out that question you said -- I
8 said would you be inclined to believe a witness more or less
9 solely because of that witness was a law enforcement officer
10 and you said yes. And you explained that almost all detainees
11 claim not guilty, which very few were really not guilty.
12 So tell me, would you follow my instruction that no
13 witness, including any law enforcement officer is entitled to
14 any greater or lesser credibility because of their occupation?
15 A. I would follow your instructions because with that question
16 meaning like I have experienced a lot, because I was a workgang
17 officer and basically every time they would come back they
18 would have been guilty, found guilty, so that is what I
19 witnessed from experience. But to follow orders, I have always
20 been able to follow -- I have always been good at that. I have
21 never had no problems following instructions.
22 Q. And would you follow all of my instructions on the law?
23 A. Yes, to the best that I could.
24 Q. All right.
25 And based upon everything in the questionnaire, and I
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1 will go over some other questions, but do you have any reason
2 to question or doubt that you would follow my instructions in
3 this case on the law?
4 A. I would try to the best of my ability to follow it.
5 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that you would not follow
6 my instructions?
7 A. No.
8 Q. So will you follow my instructions?
9 A. I would try to, you know.
10 Q. What I am trying to get at is I can't get into your mind
11 obviously, and if there is any reason that you doubt that you
12 could follow my instructions and decide this case based solely
13 upon the evidence or lack of evidence and my instructions on
14 the law, tell me.
15 Do you have any doubts in your mind?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay.
18 So with respect to this instruction, and, you know, it
19 is the case that sometimes witnesses from any occupation don't
20 get their testimony quite right for anyone of a number of
21 reasons. And I will explain instructions on credibility. It
22 can be based upon the fact that a witness may be mistaken. It
23 could be that a witness in some cases does not testify
24 truthfully. I am not suggesting that any witness would ever do
25 that, but what I am saying is that if you listen to any
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1 witness -- any witness -- law enforcement officer, any witness,
2 you would have to listen to the witness and assess that
3 witness' credibility without any preconception or presumption
4 or anything like that that any witness is entitled to any
5 greater or lesser credibility because of their occupation,
6 whether it be law enforcement officer or anything else.
7 Do you understand that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And will you follow that instruction?
10 A. Yes, I would.
11 Q. Do you have any question in your mind that you can follow
12 that instruction and that you will follow that instruction?
13 A. I would follow the instruction. I don't have anything in
14 my mind, you know. I will be able to follow your orders or
15 whatever to the best of my ability really.
16 Q. Okay.
17 Is there anything about the fact that you were
18 employed as a corrections officer that would prevent you from
19 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You mentioned that your spouse was disabled and can you
22 tell me what the nature of the disability was?
23 A. She was assaulted by a patient in Jacobi Hospital and that
24 was in December 21, 2001, and she has been out and I have been
25 taking care of her. She just got spinal surgery of the upper
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1 neck, and on March 16 of this year, and that is what I have
2 been doing lately. And she has just been out of commission.
3 Q. Is there anything about the care that you give to your wife
4 that would prevent you from serving as a juror in this case?
5 A. Not really because now she has been a little bit doing
6 everything on her own and, you know, just sometimes that I have
7 to take her to appointments.
8 Q. Okay.
9 How often do you have to do that?
10 A. Sometimes 3 times a week, but my son is off from school
11 now, so he helps a lot.
12 Q. Okay.
13 How about since the case is expected to go into the
14 fall, would you be able to make arrangements in the fall for
15 your wife?
16 A. With the case going on I would try to see if I can make
17 arrangements but that sometimes don't work sometimes.
18 Q. The case is expected to last about 4 to 6 months, begin in
19 June, and so it would continue into the fall, the early winter.
20 Is there anything about that that would -- in terms of your
21 care for your wife --
22 A. I honestly can't say. I can't say because I don't know,
23 you know, like my son's schedule from school and stuff like
24 that. I don't know. I honestly can't say.
25 Q. How often would you take your wife to her appointments?
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1 A. Well, if anything I would just have to work around it.
2 Q. We don't sit on Fridays, and we don't sit after 4:30.
3 A. So I would try to work around it then.
4 Q. Okay.
5 But you don't know -- do you believe that that is
6 possible, that you could make arrangements?
7 A. I could make arrangements, you know, but, like I said, I
8 honestly don't know how it's going to work out. It's not like
9 if -- like if it's at night or something or every Friday,
10 because sometimes some doctors are in or not, so my son,
11 whenever I could, he will try to take over.
12 Q. Could he do that in the fall? You also have several other
13 children, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Would they be able to help?
16 A. That is what I am calculating but now in another month, one
17 is leaving to Virginia for a job and one is in the Air Force,
18 and one is upstate, so, you know, I could, you know, try my
19 best.
20 Q. Well, as you sit here today with the knowledge of how long
21 the case is and what you have to do and your other family
22 members and taking care of your wife, right now is this
23 something that you can reasonably do without serious hardship?
24 A. The worst that she has to go to appointments is I would
25 have to send her in a taxi or something, you know, so I would
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1 have to get other arrangements, but --
2 Q. But you don't personally, as you see it now, see it as a
3 serious hardship for you?
4 A. The way I have seen things have been going, because
5 sometimes she will be able to do things, I think if anything if
6 I would lien towards it would be some hardship because I don't
7 know how it would go. Like sometimes she will wake up and she
8 can't get up and in pain, so it could happen, you know. That
9 is why I can't say, you know. I can't have an honest answer.
10 It could happen, but I would try to work around it.
11 Q. Okay.
12 You mentioned that your son -- you have a son who is
13 in the Air Force. Is there anything about that that would
14 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
15 A. No, with my son, no. He is in Washington State.
16 Q. Okay.
17 And is there anything about the nature of your wife's
18 disability or the cause of that disability that would prevent
19 you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You mentioned that you have a co-worker and a friend and a
22 family member who have gone overseas in Iraq or Afghanistan.
23 Can you tell me who that was? Just don't tell me the names but
24 describe their relationship to you and when they went.
25 A. My wife's grandfather's stepbrother, he was in recently in
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1 Iraq. And I have a lot of friends who are reservists,
2 co-workers from the job that have been in Iraq and Afghanistan.
3 Q. Okay.
4 Is there anything about that that would prevent you
5 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You mentioned that you have been a juror three times and am
8 I right that each of those cases were in state court?
9 A. Two of them were state court and one was in federal but I
10 got, how you call that -- disqualified from the federal.
11 Q. Why were you disqualified?
12 A. I really don't know.
13 Q. You didn't serve as a juror?
14 A. No. I meant that I was -- I went to the same thing that I
15 am doing now.
16 Q. And you weren't picked.
17 A. No. I wasn't a juror, no.
18 Q. Okay.
19 And you were twice a juror in state court?
20 A. Yes, civil cases, and they were both settled.
21 Q. Did they settle after you had begun to listen to any of the
22 evidence?
23 A. Both got settled before we went out, yes.
24 Q. Okay.
25 Is there anything about any of those experiences with
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1 the court process or the jury system that would prevent you
2 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You mentioned that someone in your family was the victim of
5 a serious crime. Were you referring to your wife? What were
6 you referring to there?
7 A. Really to my wife.
8 Q. Okay.
9 By the way, were any charges brought in connection
10 with that?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And anything about that experience that would prevent you
13 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You mentioned that people in your family have been employed
16 by or sought employment with a prosecutor's office or a law
17 enforcement agency. Again, don't tell me names, but just tell
18 me what their relationship was to you or who you were referring
19 to?
20 A. I had a brother-in-law and that is basically it. And a lot
21 of co-workers, friends.
22 Q. Co-workers from when you were in the corrections system?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The brother-in-law, what does your brother-in-law do?
25 A. He is retired now but he was in narcotics.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 Anything about any of those connections that would
3 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And you mentioned that you and close friends were in
6 corrections. Anything about that that would prevent you from
7 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Let me ask you following up again with respect to the fact
10 that you were a corrections officer and law enforcement
11 personnel may testify in the course of the trial, will you
12 follow my instruction that no witness -- no witness --
13 including any law enforcement officer, is entitled to any
14 greater or lesser credibility simply because of their
15 occupation?
16 A. No. I would follow your instruction.
17 Q. You said no.
18 A. Well --
19 Q. Will you follow my instructions?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And can you follow that instruction?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You mentioned that you were not very knowledgeable about
24 Islam. What you knew you mentioned you learned from a
25 co-worker. Can you tell me what it is that you in general
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1 learned from your co-worker?
2 A. Basically like part of our job was to serve like Muslim
3 work, like workers that had to go to their Muslim, how do you
4 call it, you know, like studies and stuff, and we had to give
5 them, you know, their break to go to their studies and certain
6 times that we had to give certain foods to them and preparing
7 their own foods for the regular Allah and every different party
8 in the jail system.
9 Q. And is there anything about any of your conversations with
10 your co-workers or your dealings with any people an at the
11 facility who were Muslim, is there anything about that that
12 would prevent from you being a fair and impartial juror in this
13 case?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices against any people of
16 Middle Eastern descent or any people of the Islamic faith?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You mentioned that you had heard about or read about the
19 defendants in this case from newspaper and TV. Can you tell me
20 what you recall hearing or reading?
21 A. Just about that there was a lawyer, you know, passing --
22 getting some information passed from an inmate.
23 Q. All right.
24 You also recall seeing or hearing something about
25 Sheikh Rahman. Can you tell me what you recall seeing or
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1 hearing about him?
2 A. Sometimes I would hear like in the news watching like
3 channel 7 news and I would just hear, but I can't remember
4 because it has been a little while and, you know, like I can't
5 say. I just remember what was happening because with us a lot
6 of times at our job they would instruct us to be careful
7 because things are going on in different areas and, you know,
8 like we don't want it to happen to us. So we just were being
9 precautious and stuff like that with what was going on.
10 Because usually what goes on in one jail it can happen in every
11 other jail, so it's just instructions that we had gotten from
12 our bosses to be careful especially with the incident in MCC
13 and it's just what we were instructed to be aware and careful.
14 (Continued on next page)
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Okay. What incident at the MCC were you referring to?
3 A. The incident where there was a correction officer that got
4 stabbed in the eye, a possible escape.
5 Q. Let me ask you, have you heard or -- what have you heard
6 or read about this case?
7 A. This case?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. Basically, of what I said before. About passing
10 information from detainee to lawyer.
11 Q. Okay. Is there anything about the charges in this case as
12 I've explained the case to you that leads you to believe that
13 you could not be a fair and impartial juror in the case?
14 A. No.
15 Q. If you were chosen as a juror, you would have to put aside
16 side anything that you have seen or heard or read in the
17 newspapers and decide the case based solely upon the evidence
18 or lack of evidence that's presented here in court. Could you
19 do that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you have any doubt whether you could do that?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you understand that if you were chosen as a juror in
24 this case, you would have to listen to the evidence in the case
25 and decide the case based solely upon the evidence or lack of
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1 evidence in the case and my instructions on the law? Do you
2 understand that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is there -- would you do that?
5 A. Yes, I would, yes.
6 Q. Do you have any questions about whether you could do that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. As you can tell from all of my questions, the fundamental
9 issue is whether there is anything in your personal history or
10 life experience that would prevent you from acting as a fair
11 and impartial juror in this case, so let me ask you one final
12 time whether there's anything, whether I've asked you about it
13 specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a fair
14 and impartial juror in this case?
15 A. No, I would -- I would be fair. I would, you know, follow
16 your instructions. That's what I would try, you know, the best
17 of my ability.
18 Q. You say that you would try to the best of your ability. Do
19 you have any questions in your mind about whether you would be
20 able to do that?
21 A. No, I don't have any questions.
22 Q. Okay. Can you step out for a moment?
23 (Juror absent)
24 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, our concern is that even
25 though he's retired he still does associate with people he was
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1 on the job with and talks about things. And he said that,
2 having heard that there was a case about messages between a
3 detainee and a lawyer, it was something that everybody talked
4 about because, as he said, usually what goes on in one jail,
5 goes on in every other jail. And he immediately skipped over
6 then and was talking about the MCC episode, which did involve a
7 Middle Eastern person, as I recall the facts, all in the same
8 paragraph or thought pattern.
9 In addition to that, your Honor, you did ask him
10 several times about law enforcement officers, but in this case,
11 there are going to be prison guards, correction officers, who
12 will be witnesses in the case. It is inevitable. And
13 therefore we would ask your Honor to explore those two areas.
14 First, what did they talk about? About detainees and
15 messages and so on? And what are his attitudes about it.
16 Second, your Honor, somebody with that many years
17 experience in corrections is almost bound to have heard about a
18 person named Lynne Stewart, particularly in connection with
19 such things as the Larry Davis case. Would your Honor ask him,
20 Has he heard, read, talked about the lawyer Lynne Stewart.
21 Your Honor knows the nature of her practice, and these seem
22 like reasonable areas to pursue.
23 THE COURT: All right. He was asked about,
24 specifically, about Lynne Stewart. But I'll raise it
25 separately with him, and I'll certainly raise the prison guards
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1 and the -- what's the precise nature of the question about
2 talking about detainees?
3 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, he said that he heard that
4 there was a case involving alleged passing of messages from a
5 detainee for a lawyer. It was discussed as a current security
6 issue at his facility.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor recalls he didn't retire until
9 August of 2002, after the indictment in this case was returned.
10 THE COURT: Okay. Anything else? All right.
11 (Juror present)
12 BY THE COURT:
13 Q. Hi. I have a few follow-up questions. I've asked you
14 about law enforcement personnel. I've told you that law
15 enforcement personnel might be witnesses. It also may be that
16 corrections officers or guards or security officers may be
17 witnesses at the trial. And their credibility has to be
18 assessed the same way as every other witness. You would have
19 to listen to their testimony in the same way as you would any
20 other witness, and you could not give their testimony any
21 greater or lesser credibility simply because they were involved
22 in corrections in one form or another. Do you understand that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And would you follow that instruction?
25 A. Yes, I would.
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1 Q. Okay. And you understand the importance of that? Every
2 witness has to be assessed based upon their credibility, here
3 on the stand, to determine whether they're being accurate or
4 not accurate in their testimony. Will you follow that
5 instruction?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Tell me, have you -- are you familiar at all or have you
8 heard or read about Lynne Stewart?
9 A. Yes, in the paper.
10 Q. Okay. And tell me what you've heard or read about Lynne
11 Stewart?
12 A. It was in the paper that she was, you know, like on charges
13 of receiving messages, you know, from a detainee.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. That they didn't have any outside contact.
16 Q. All right. Now, did you read or hear anything else about
17 her that you can recall?
18 A. Basically, it's that. That was it.
19 Q. Okay. Now, I went over this with you before, but I want to
20 make sure -- oh, let me just ask you another question in that
21 connection: You mention that you had conversations about
22 detainees passing messages as part of your work as a
23 corrections officer; is that right?
24 A. Uh.
25 Q. Go ahead?
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1 A. Basically, it wasn't -- because, like, our detainees is a
2 different type. They could talk and make calls outside and we
3 weren't instructed anything like that. You know, the only
4 thing is: Contraband. That's the only thing that we were, you
5 know, aware of. Concerning messages or whatever, it was
6 nothing -- you know, it wasn't like an inmate couldn't talk to
7 the public, only to his lawyer.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. The only thing that we got instructions were to, you know,
10 be careful, like there was an incident that happened in a
11 jail -- because I used to work up the block in the Tombs in
12 Manhattan, and from -- what is it, MMC or -- there was an
13 incident. And just be alert, because usually any uprisings
14 start one and go all over. So that's what we were told: To be
15 careful.
16 Q. All right. You don't recall any other discussions about --
17 or receiving any instructions about passing information?
18 A. No, not in my -- not in our, where we worked at.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. Because they all had privileges to talk, you know, on the
21 phone and stuff, and talk to their lawyers, family members and
22 everybody.
23 Q. All right. Now, you -- and I know I went over this with
24 you before, but let me do it again. You had heard something
25 about the lawyer and you heard something about the case, and
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1 you've told us what you had heard. It's very important for all
2 of the parties in this case to have jurors who will assure them
3 that they will decide this case based solely upon the evidence
4 or lack of evidence in this case, and my instructions on the
5 law. Despite any publicity, anything that's been in the
6 newspapers, which can always be incorrect, the case has to be
7 decided solely on the evidence or lack of evidence and my
8 instructions on the law, and will you put aside anything that
9 you have seen or heard or read in the newspapers or talked
10 about and listen to the evidence in this case or the lack of
11 evidence and decide this case based solely upon the evidence or
12 lack of evidence and my instructions on the law?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And can you do that?
15 A. Yes, I could.
16 Q. All right. Can you step out for a moment?
17 (Juror absent)
18 THE COURT: No further questions. And no challenges
19 for cause? I'll ask him to come back --
20 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may I have just a moment,
21 please, your Honor?
22 THE COURT: Oh, sure.
23 (Off the record)
24 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, we would challenge the juror
25 for cause. I listened to his -- the colloquy, and although the
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1 words were the right words, a higher intonation, particularly
2 with the, "Yes, I would" answer on evaluating the credibility
3 of prison guards, he hesitated, he looked around. It was
4 clearly something about which he had difficulty. And I know
5 it's hard to talk about candor and lack of candor, and these
6 are things for your Honor to decide, but here is a man who's
7 spent his entire working life guarding prisoners and who has
8 said that he's convinced that the detainees, most of whom are
9 presumed innocent, turn out not to be; who continues to
10 associate with people who are in that same profession. I think
11 that it is simply not proven that he would be able to put all
12 of that experience out of his mind.
13 MR. RUHNKE: We join the challenge.
14 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Baker?
15 MS. BAKER: If your Honor was prepared to rule -- I
16 just wanted to say your Honor observed the jurist's demeanor
17 himself. We would submit that his demeanor reflected he was
18 being careful and thinking about each question, and to the
19 extent that he was answering slowly, he spoke slowly
20 throughout. He did not answer any more slowly in response to
21 your Honor's repeated questions about whether he could follow
22 the instructions.
23 THE COURT: Yes. I listened to him very carefully,
24 and I assessed his credibility, I assessed his demeanor.
25 Counsel says correctly that the answers were, on their face,
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1 answers which do not support a challenge for cause. And the
2 issue is one of credibility.
3 Counsel questions his credibility, but I've listened
4 to him, I've observed his demeanor, I've gone over with him at
5 length all of his contacts, experiences, and he is a credible,
6 believable witness when he says that he will follow my
7 instructions, that it's important to him to follow orders, and
8 that he will get my instructions on the law, he's carefully
9 thought about the issues, and he will decide this case based
10 solely upon the evidence or lack of evidence and my
11 instructions on the law and that he will be a fair and
12 impartial witness. And I've listened to him very carefully,
13 and there is not a challenge for cause.
14 MR. TIGAR: To complete the record, your Honor, our
15 challenge was also an implied bias challenge. As your Honor
16 may recall, a closely divided Supreme Court in Dennis versus
17 Unites States did uphold the presence of government employees
18 on the contempt of congress case of Eugene Dennis, but as the
19 dissenters pointed out and the majority acknowledged, there's
20 certain professions within government service that would create
21 what is called implied bias.
22 I simply wanted to make that additional point.
23 THE COURT: Trust me, I have carefully considered the
24 issue of implied bias. I've carefully considered the three
25 classes of bias that the Court of Appeals has set out, and this
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1 is a person who is retired. There is nothing about his prior
2 employment that supports the challenge, and I've carefully
3 examined that he will have no actual bias.
4 I've also considered whether there's any possible
5 inferred bias as to which I should exercise any discretion in
6 this case, and that's why I so carefully listened to all of his
7 answers, and I believe that there is a juror who would be a
8 fair and impartial juror, and I have considered all of the
9 possible categories of bias.
10 I appreciate your bringing it to my attention. Bring
11 in the juror.
12 (Juror present)
13 BY THE COURT:
14 Q. Please have a seat. Juror Number 154, you're still in the
15 process of jury selection. I'll ask you to call back on June
16 the 18th, and Mr. Fletcher will give you a slip of paper to
17 point out to you the telephone number and all.
18 It's very important that you follow my continuing
19 instructions: Please don't talk about this case or anything to
20 do with it. Please, don't look at or listen to or read
21 anything about the case. Please, as I'll tell all of the
22 jurors who are selected, do not -- remember to keep an open
23 mind until you've heard all of the evidence, I've instructed
24 you on the law, and you've gone to the jury room to begin your
25 deliberations. Fairness and justice to the parties requires
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1 that you do that.
2 All right?
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. Okay.
5 (Juror absent)
6 DEPUTY CLERK: 156.
7 (Juror present)
8 BY THE COURT:
9 Q. Please have a seat.
10 A. Thank you.
11 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 156.
12 A. Good afternoon.
13 Q. It's nice to see you. Since you were here last, has
14 anything changed concerning your ability to serve as a juror in
15 this case or has anything occurred to you that may affect your
16 ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
17 A. No.
18 Q. It notice appears that the date that the final jury will be
19 chosen in this case will be Monday, June the 21st. So after
20 today, it's unlikely that you'll be called to come back before
21 June the 18th. Does that present any serious hardship for you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And, actually, it would be call in on June the 18th. Since
24 you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about the case or
25 have you looked at or listened to anything about the case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
3 any conversations here at the Court house or with any other
4 prospective jurors?
5 A. No.
6 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
7 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
8 A. The first day that I was here?
9 Q. Either the first day or today.
10 A. No, we were told not to discuss it.
11 Q. Very good. And you mentioned in response to the
12 questionnaire that your -- that you had a -- that you have a
13 niece who's in the Navy, and is she currently in the Navy?
14 A. Yes, she is.
15 Q. And you have a former husband who is in the Army?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know, is he still in the Army?
18 A. No.
19 Q. And you have two brothers who were in the service. Are
20 they still in?
21 A. No, they're finished.
22 Q. They've finished. And you mentioned that some of your
23 family were -- saw service in Vietnam. Who was that?
24 A. My youngest brother -- middle brother.
25 Q. Okay. And is there anything about any of those experiences
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1 that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in
2 this case?
3 A. Not at all.
4 Q. You told us that you were called for jury duty three times
5 but you were never selected for a jury. Is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. Is there anything about those experiences in the
8 course of jury selection or anyone in connection with that
9 process that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
10 juror in this case?
11 A. Not at all.
12 Q. You mention that you have a family members who were or are
13 involved in corrections. You've pointed out your former
14 husband was employed in corrections and is now retired. And
15 that you have an uncle, also retired, who was in corrections.
16 And a cousin who is still employed in corrections.
17 Were all of those employed with the New York City
18 Department of Corrections -- or the New York City corrections
19 or the state corrections?
20 A. I think it's the state.
21 Q. The state.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. Is there anything about those connections that would
24 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
25 A. No. They were doing their job.
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1 Q. Okay. One of the instructions that I will give to jurors
2 is that no witness, no witness, is entitled to greater or
3 lesser credibility based upon their occupation, and that
4 includes law enforcement officers. And there may be law
5 enforcement officers or prison officials or prison guards who
6 may be witnesses in the case. And you would have to assess
7 their credibility in the same way that you would any other
8 witness. They would be entitled to no greater or lesser
9 credibility just because of their occupation.
10 Do you understand that?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. And will you follow that instruction?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You mentioned that you were not very knowledgeable about
15 Islam. Could you tell me what the basis for any knowledge that
16 you have about Islam is? If you can.
17 A. Only that, you know, that which has taken place in the
18 news. You know, other than that, it was a place on the map.
19 Q. Based on a map?
20 A. No, it was -- you know, prior to when it became, you know,
21 outstanding in the news, it was, you know, just a place on the
22 map.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. You know. And I know these are people that -- a culture of
25 people that exists, like we Americans. Other than that, I
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1 don't have any relationships, friends, you know.
2 Q. Okay. Do you have any biases or prejudices against any
3 people of Middle Eastern descent or any people of the Islamic
4 faith?
5 A. No, I have no reason to.
6 Q. All right. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you
7 would be required to decide this case based solely on the
8 evidence or lack of evidence in the case, and in accordance
9 with my instructions on the law. Will you do that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. As you can tell from all of my questions, the fundamental
12 issue is whether there's anything in your personal history or
13 life experience, whether I've asked you about it specifically
14 or not, that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
15 juror in this case. So let me ask you one final time whether
16 there's anything, whether I've asked you about it specifically
17 or not, that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
18 juror in this case?
19 A. I don't believe so.
20 Q. Okay. Do you have any reason to doubt that?
21 A. I have no reason to doubt it.
22 Q. Will you be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
23 A. I'll do my best.
24 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that you will not be fair
25 and impartial?
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1 A. I have no reason to.
2 Q. So will you assure all of the parties in this case that you
3 will be a fair and impartial juror, that you will listen to the
4 evidence or lack of evidence and decide the case based solely
5 on the evidence or lack of evidence and my instructions on the
6 law?
7 A. I'll have to go on the evidence that's presented, and
8 present myself accordingly as best I know how.
9 Q. All right. So will you do that?
10 A. I can do it.
11 Q. Okay. Thank you. You can step out, please.
12 A. Okay.
13 (Juror absent)
14 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, just a couple of questions,
15 some additional questioning of this juror. She said on the
16 questionnaire that she's now retired and that she spends her
17 time doing volunteer work. Would you inquire of her what kind
18 of volunteer work she does?
19 THE COURT: Sure. Yes.
20 MR. RUHNKE: That's Question 18. Also, when she was
21 asked about her knowledge of Islam, she said in essence, she
22 really didn't think much about it until it became something
23 that was very much in the news. And I infer from that a
24 reference to 9/11, terrorism in general.
25 Would you ask her -- if you're not satisfied that
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1 that's what she probably did mean, ask her what she meant by
2 that, and if she says "9/11" or words to that effect, would you
3 ask her if she associates terrorism with people who are
4 Islamic?
5 That's all I'd ask for, your Honor.
6 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, her former husband was a
7 corrections officer, and it's not clear whether they were
8 married at the time he did that work. But whether or not they
9 were, it seems a legitimate inquiry, whether he feared for his
10 physical safety as a correction officer or whether they talked
11 about his work. Questions to explore whether there was
12 anything in that period of time that would leave her with an
13 impression that would be relevant to this case.
14 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, just one matter: She lists
15 her daughter's occupation as -- with the initials NPA. Would
16 you ask her what those stand for? It's not clear. That's on
17 Page 8, your Honor, Question 11.
18 THE COURT: Okay. I'll ask a few follow-up questions
19 of the juror. If the follow-up questions don't suggest a
20 challenge for cause, I'll tell the juror to come back on June
21 the 18th, or call, right?
22 MR. TIGAR: Yes.
23 MR. RUHNKE: That's correct.
24 MR. DEMBER: That's correct.
25 THE COURT: All right. Retrieve the juror.
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1 (Juror present)
2 BY THE COURT:
3 Q. Hi, again. A few other questions, Juror Number 156.
4 You mentioned on the questionnaire that your
5 daughter -- in listing your daughter's occupation, you said
6 NPA. What does NPA stand for?
7 A. She took a nursing course to go into the homes and take
8 care of the elderly, sick.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. She call it NPA. I think I got it right.
11 Q. It's some form of a nurse's aid?
12 A. In home, for people.
13 Q. Nurse's aid?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you had mentioned that you do volunteer work.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you just describe for me what kind of volunteer work
18 you do?
19 A. I'm retired now, and I used to do the type of work my
20 daughter's doing now. And, you know, like bring in groceries,
21 something like that. At church. Mentor.
22 Q. What?
23 A. Mentor. I mentor, you know, a couple of my cousins, the
24 younger people. Different places. You know, it's just a way
25 of life.
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1 Q. Okay. You mentioned that Islam was in the newspapers. Can
2 you describe to me what you meant by Islam being in the
3 newspapers?
4 A. Well, when it became, you know, newsworthy, when --
5 Q. I can't hear -- could you just -- thank you.
6 A. I'm sorry. When all the activity started when the
7 buildings -- 9/11, and, you know, that's when everything came
8 into the news.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. So that's, you know, that's when it became prominent.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Let me explain something.
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. This case does not involve 9/11. None of the defendants in
16 this case are charged with any offenses in connection with
17 9/11. So 9/11 is simply not involved in this case.
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. You mention that you had seen publicity over 9/11. Is
20 there anything about that that would prevent you from being a
21 fair and impartial juror in this case, listening to the
22 evidence or lack of evidence in this case, and deciding this
23 case based solely upon the evidence or lack of evidence and my
24 instructions on the law?
25 A. Hmmm -- I understand what you're saying. I don't see where
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1 it's relevant.
2 Q. I'm sorry?
3 A. I don't see where it's connecting, you know. This was an
4 incident of people gone mad, you know, on that day. And as the
5 judge explained to us when we came into the room that day, you
6 know, he explained to us, you know, these were people that got
7 involved in something, so it's a different case.
8 (Continued on next page)
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1 Q. Okay.
2 You had mentioned that your husband was a former
3 corrections officer.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is there anything about that that would prevent you from
6 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
7 A. I don't see why.
8 Q. Is there anything that you discussed with your prior
9 husband or anything that he said to you or anything like that
10 that leads you to believe that you would not be a fair and
11 impartial juror in this case?
12 A. Well, we are divorced. We are not living together, so his
13 life is separate except that we have children together, you
14 know. But like all of my other relatives that were in
15 corrections, they are doing their job and it has no weight on
16 what I do.
17 Q. Can I just ask you, I don't mean to pry, but how long have
18 you been separated from your husband?
19 A. Oh, about 1977.
20 Q. Oh, okay.
21 A. Yes. We are family but we are not together.
22 Q. Okay.
23 Juror 156, I am going to ask you to call in on June
24 18th and Mr. Fletcher will give you a piece of paper where to
25 call in, but it's very important that you follow my continuing
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1 instructions. Please, please don't talk about this case at all
2 or anything to do with it. Please remember not to look at or
3 listen to or read anything to do with the case. Always
4 remember to keep an open mind as I will tell the jurors until
5 they have heard all of the evidence, I have instructed them on
6 the law, and they have gone to the jury room to begin their
7 deliberations. Fairness and justice requires that they do
8 that.
9 All right?
10 A. Okay. I understand.
11 Q. Thank you. You can go home now.
12 (Juror absent)
13 THE COURT: Can I just pause for one moment. We have
14 two more jurors from this morning but it's very close to
15 lunchtime and I would be inclined to ask those jurors to come
16 after lunch and continue after lunch.
17 MR. TIGAR: We certainly agree with that, your Honor.
18 I would also signal I don't know how late your Honor intends to
19 sit this evening. I have an appointment with a witness at 7
20 o'clock.
21 THE COURT: Oh, golly, I really hope that we won't
22 come close.
23 MR. TIGAR: This was a hope I hoped to share with the
24 court.
25 THE COURT: I hope so too. If it's necessary to call
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1 some jurors back tomorrow we will call them back tomorrow. We
2 will try not to sit beyond 5 o'clock.
3 Why don't we try and take a little less for lunch. So
4 let's say 2:30. We will break for lunch until 2:30.
5 Thank you.
6 (Luncheon recess)
7 (continued on next page)
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1 AFTERNOON SESSION
2 2:30 p.m.
3 THE COURT: Good afternoon all. Please be seated.
4 The potential jurors are being brought over.
5 Let me raise a couple of issues with you while we are
6 waiting.
7 First, I received the correspondence from the parties
8 relating to Juror Number 16 and I agree with Mr. Ruhnke's
9 letter that it's not a challenge for cause. It's unlike the
10 other situations that we have dealt with and on its face it's
11 not a challenge for cause.
12 Second, I had given you a list of prospective
13 jurors -- I had given you a list of prospective jurors that I
14 thought that the parties might agree to strike, 164, 184,
15 201 --
16 MR. TIGAR: Was there a 196 in there, your Honor?
17 THE COURT: No. I left open 196 because it wasn't
18 clear to me how definite the names were that were there. I
19 just didn't know. I mean, it's possible.
20 164, 184, 201, 202, 212, and 229.
21 MR. TIGAR: The defense agrees with that list, your
22 Honor.
23 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, we agree with 164, 184, 201,
24 202, 212 and 229.
25 Frankly, I can't find the names that you are referring
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1 to on questionnaire for the Juror 196.
2 THE COURT: It's the names of the --
3 MR. TIGAR: 196 is a street address, your Honor.
4 MR. DEMBER: I see it. It wasn't a name. It was a
5 street address, okay.
6 THE COURT: It was 195 that I was thinking of with the
7 names of children.
8 MR. DEMBER: That is correct, your Honor.
9 THE COURT: If it's 196 with the street address, then
10 I would agree with the parties.
11 MR. DEMBER: I would agree, your Honor. I didn't see
12 the street address. I was looking for names of individuals.
13 So we agree with 196 as well.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 I will make sure that the jury clerk calls. 164, 184,
16 196, 201, 202, 212 and 229 should be stricken, and one of those
17 would otherwise be here this afternoon also.
18 164 will be here later so we can tell 164 that 164 is
19 excused. That juror is coming up in a few so we might as well
20 continue with the order.
21 So the next juror is 157.
22 (Juror present)
23 BY THE COURT:
24 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 167.
25 Let me ask you a few questions on your questionnaire
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1 before going back to some preliminary questions.
2 You didn't indicate on your form whether you would
3 have a serious hardship if you were chosen for this case.
4 A. Well, I work full-time. I guess everybody does. And I
5 take care of my older daughter's children in the afternoon.
6 Q. But you would be paid if you took off from work, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And there is nothing about the care that you give to the
9 other children that would prevent you from serving?
10 A. Probably not.
11 Q. Since you were here last has anything changed concerning
12 your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has anything
13 occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a fair and
14 impartial juror in this case?
15 A. I have tickets to go to Europe.
16 Q. When?
17 A. June 4th.
18 Q. For how long?
19 A. Ten days.
20 Q. Actually the jury in this case will only be chosen on June
21 21st and you won't have to call back until June 18th. So does
22 that pose any serious hardship for you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
25 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
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1 the case?
2 A. I have not.
3 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. That includes anyone here at the courthouse or any
6 conversations with any other prospective jurors?
7 A. No.
8 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
9 did you or anyone you heard discuss the case?
10 A. No, we did not.
11 Q. Could you tell me what types of law your daughter
12 practices?
13 A. My daughter no longer practices. She is now teaching. My
14 son-in-law does litigation.
15 Q. Without telling me the law firm that your son-in-law
16 practices at, what kind of law is it that he practices?
17 A. Well, I know he is doing business litigation and he is
18 doing some marriage and divorce work.
19 Q. You mentioned that your father was an attorney. What kind
20 of law did he practice or does he practice?
21 A. He practiced for a while and then he worked for the U.S.
22 government.
23 Q. Okay.
24 What did he do for the government?
25 A. He worked in income taxes and excise taxes.
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1 Q. He worked --
2 A. Income and excise taxes.
3 Q. Anything about that that would prevent you from being a
4 fair and impartial juror in this case?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You mentioned that you were an alternate juror on a
7 criminal case in White Plains.
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. About 15 years ago?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was that in federal court or state court in White Plains?
12 A. It was in White Plains, in state court.
13 Q. And that was a criminal action.?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you did not actually deliberate in that case?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. And is there anything about that experience with the
18 criminal justice process or with any of the participants in the
19 process that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
20 juror in this case?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You mentioned that you support various organizations which
23 defend people's civil liberties and civil rights. You were
24 asked have you or has an immediate family member ever belonged
25 to an organization the purpose of which is to defend people's
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1 civil liberties or civil rights, and you said yes, you support
2 with charitable contributions.
3 A. That is about it, right.
4 Q. And I was just asking you which organizations.
5 A. American Jewish Committee.
6 Q. Okay.
7 Any others?
8 A. I am trying to remember. Not really, I don't think.
9 Q. Okay.
10 What kind of law does your daughter teach, by the way?
11 A. My daughter doesn't teach law anymore. She is now a
12 teacher. After practicing for several years, she went back to
13 school again.
14 Q. And she is now a teacher or is she a student?
15 A. She is a teacher now of children.
16 Q. Oh, I see.
17 Q. What grade does she teach?
18 A. Sixth.
19 Q. You also mentioned that your ex-husband was also a lawyer?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you tell me what kind of law he practiced?
22 A. Also business litigation.
23 Q. And you mentioned that your uncle was at one time the
24 United States Attorney for the Southern District. Can you
25 just, without telling us who that was, about how long ago was
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1 that? Is that --
2 A. It was a while ago, a long time ago.
3 Q. A long time ago?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay.
6 And what kind -- is your uncle still alive?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And what other kinds of law did he practice?
9 A. He didn't.
10 Q. I am sorry?
11 A. He didn't practice law.
12 Q. Okay.
13 Now, in response to the questions on people you know
14 who are associated with the legal justice system you mentioned
15 that you have members of your family.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And, similarly, that members of your family have been
18 associated with the federal or state investigative agency.
19 Have we covered those, your father who worked for the
20 IRS, your uncle --
21 A. You have covered them.
22 Q. Okay.
23 And, similarly, the judiciary or the court system,
24 that was referring to your uncle, is that right?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Yes?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, is there anything about any of those relationships
4 that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in
5 this case?
6 A. I don't think so.
7 Q. People have different ways of expressing themselves. Is
8 there anything that you know of as a result of any of those
9 connections that would prevent you from being a fair and
10 impartial juror in this case, listening to the evidence or lack
11 of evidence and deciding the case based solely on the evidence
12 or lack of evidence and my instructions on the law?
13 A. I guess not. Am I supposed to say yes or no?
14 Q. Well, under your oath as a potential juror the parties are
15 entitled to know whether --
16 A. Well, I would hope that I could.
17 Q. We are going to get to some other questions also but before
18 we even get to those questions, you say you hope that you could
19 and that you guess you would.
20 Tell me, we are going to get to all of the other
21 questions but you tell me, as you sit here today do you
22 question whether based on your personal history, based on the
23 allegations in this case as I have explained them to you, and
24 they are solely allegations, do you doubt whether you could be
25 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
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1 A. On the basis of that I guess I could be impartial.
2 Q. I am sorry?
3 A. I said I think I could be impartial on the basis of the
4 connections there and the questions you asked me so far.
5 Q. I am not limiting myself to the questions so far. That is
6 what I was trying to make clear. I am going to get to the
7 other questions also but, tell me, and we will go through all
8 of them if you wish, but what I was trying to do was to ask you
9 whether based upon your personal history and life experience
10 and the allegations in this case, you would be a fair and
11 impartial juror?
12 A. I guess I would be a fair and impartial juror. That is the
13 best I can do.
14 Q. You say you guess?
15 A. I would want to be. I would hope that I would be, but I am
16 just not completely sure.
17 Q. Okay.
18 Could you step out for a moment?
19 A. Sure.
20 (Juror absent)
21 THE COURT: I am prepared to continue the questioning
22 but it's reasonably clear to me where I will be at the end of
23 the day.
24 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we think she is a cause
25 challenge at this point and we haven't even gotten to some of
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1 the questions later in the questionnaire and we are wondering
2 if the government wishes to pursue it or whether they agree.
3 THE COURT: You are more direct.
4 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, we have no objection to this
5 juror being excused.
6 THE COURT: Okay. I agree. The juror has expressed
7 sufficient doubts for a challenge for cause.
8 Okay, call the juror back.
9 (Juror present)
10 BY THE COURT:
11 Q. Juror 157, I have decided to excuse you and I very much
12 appreciate your participating in the process. I appreciate the
13 time and effort that you have taken with the questionnaire and
14 in responding to my questions today and I hope that you
15 appreciate that your very participation in the process is
16 performing a public service. So I hope you take away the
17 satisfaction of knowing that you have done that.
18 A. Thank you.
19 Q. And you are excused now and all the paperwork will be taken
20 care of by mail.
21 (Juror absent)
22 THE CLERK: 158.
23 THE COURT: 158 is apparently not there so we will
24 call 159 and we will have to follow up to see where 158 is.
25 (Juror present)
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 159. Nice to see you.
3 Since you were here last has anything changed
4 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
5 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
6 fair and impartial juror in this case?
7 A. The only thing my job refuses to pay for the length of
8 time. They have said that I would have to take a leave of
9 absence and partial pay, which would be very hard.
10 Q. Don't tell me where your employer is or who your employer
11 is, but I thought that when you filled out the questionnaire
12 you were not then working.
13 A. I am full-time employed.
14 Q. Oh, I am sorry, you are absolutely right. But you told me
15 on the questionnaire that serving on the jury would not cause
16 or would not be a serious hardship for you and that it would
17 not cause you hardship and that you would be paid your salary.
18 A. Well, I assumed that the job would do that, but they have
19 said otherwise.
20 Q. They won't pay your salary?
21 A. Only partially, and I will have to take a leave of absence.
22 Q. Okay.
23 I see, you work for an insurance company.
24 A. That is right.
25 Q. And they have a regular policy with respect to sort of
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1 length of jury service?
2 A. That is right, after 8 days.
3 Q. And you tell me you would be paid partial salary?
4 A. That is what they said.
5 Q. And would you be able to keep your jury pay also, $40 a pay
6 and then $50 a day?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. You don't know.
9 Your spouse works also?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So would serving on the jury be -- you know, the parties in
12 the case are entitled to a jury from a cross section of their
13 community and jurors have lots of responsibilities and so would
14 serving on the jury be a serious economic hardship for you?
15 A. It would be because I own a house. I have two kids in
16 private school and I have two cars and I don't think whoever I
17 would owe for a mortgage would give me time to pay up.
18 Q. All right.
19 What would the partial pay that you received be?
20 A. They didn't say. They just said it was partial payment.
21 Q. Depending upon the extent of the partial payment, could you
22 serve without it being a serious economic hardship?
23 A. For the length of time?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. It would be very hard.
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1 Q. But how do you know that without even knowing how much they
2 would pay you?
3 A. Well, I would suppose it would be half of my salary or even
4 less.
5 Q. All right.
6 And would half of your salary combined with the juror
7 pay be a serious economic hardship for you?
8 A. I don't think it would come up to what my salary would be
9 if I had partial payment.
10 Q. You have to tell me. Would it prevent you from paying your
11 mortgage and putting --
12 A. It would prevent me from something, paying at least half of
13 something.
14 Q. Can you step out for a moment?
15 A. Sure.
16 (Juror absent)
17 THE COURT:: Do the parties want me to pursue it with
18 her?
19 MR. RUHNKE: We think she should be excused.
20 MR. DEMBER: We agree, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: All right, we will excuse 159.
22 (Juror present)
23 BY THE COURT:
24 Q. Juror 159, I will excuse you. Please, you can go home now
25 and all of your paperwork will be taken care of through the
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1 mail.
2 A. Thank you.
3 (Juror absent)
4 THE CLERK: 163.
5 (Juror present)
6 BY THE COURT:
7 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 163. It's good to see you.
8 A. Good afternoon.
9 Q. Juror 163, since you were here last has anything changed
10 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
11 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
12 fair and impartial juror in this case?
13 A. No, it hasn't.
14 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
15 chosen in the case will be Monday, June 21st. So after today
16 it's unlikely you will be called or will have to call back
17 before June 18. Does that present any serious hardship for
18 you?
19 A. No, it doesn't.
20 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
21 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
22 the case?
23 A. No, I haven't.
24 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
25 anyone in the courthouse or any other prospective jurors?
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1 A. No, they haven't.
2 Q. And could you keep your voice up and talk into the
3 microphone there.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. And while you were waiting with the other prospective
6 jurors, did you or did you hear anyone discuss the case?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Could you tell me -- and don't give me your address but
9 just tell me what section in the Bronx you live in.
10 A. I think we call it University Heights.
11 Q. University Heights, okay.
12 And you mentioned that your father was in the Army and
13 was a master sergeant and he served 21 years. Is there
14 anything about that that would prevent you from being a fair
15 and impartial juror in this case?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You mentioned that you served twice as a juror in civil
18 cases in the Bronx.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And that is state court in the Bronx, right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And can you tell me what those cases were about, what the
23 issues were, what the claim was in those cases?
24 A. Well, both of them was civil cases. One was being sued --
25 Q. Keep your voice up.
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1 A. One lady was suing the city for falling down in the park.
2 Q. Suing the city for what?
3 A. She fell in the park and broke her leg.
4 Q. Fell in the park, okay.
5 A. And the other one was about -- I can't remember to be
6 honest. I can't remember. I think --
7 Q. It was what?
8 A. It was -- it has been so long.
9 Q. Okay. But it was also a civil case?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In both of those cases don't tell me what the verdict was
12 but did the jury reach a verdict in both of those cases?
13 A. Yes, they did.
14 Q. And you were a foreperson in one of those juries or both of
15 them?
16 A. One.
17 Q. Which one were you the foreperson?
18 A. The one where the woman fell in the park.
19 Q. And is there anything about your jury experience and your
20 experience with the court system and the jury process and with
21 the participants in those cases, anything about any of that
22 that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in
23 this case?
24 A. Not that I can think of.
25 Q. Have you ever served on a grand jury?
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1 A. Never.
2 Q. All right.
3 If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would
4 be required to decide this case based solely on the evidence or
5 lack of evidence and in accordance with my instructions on the
6 law. Will you do that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And as you can tell from all of my questions, the
9 fundamental issue is whether there is anything in your personal
10 history or life experience that would prevent you from being a
11 fair and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one
12 final time whether there is anything, whether I have asked you
13 about it specifically or not, that would prevent you from being
14 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
15 A. Not that I know of.
16 Q. Okay.
17 Thank you, sir.
18 Can you step out just for a moment?
19 (Juror absent)
20 MR. RUHNKE: Just one follow-up question, your Honor,
21 if I may.
22 The juror stated on question number 8 on the
23 questionnaire that he lives with relatives and friends but he
24 doesn't list who they are or their relationship and we would
25 like to know who they are and whether they are employed and
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1 what they do.
2 THE COURT: All right.
3 And if there is nothing that comes up in response to
4 that I will ask the juror to come back on -- to call in on June
5 18.
6 No other questions, no challenges for cause at this
7 point?
8 Let's call the juror back.
9 (Juror present)
10 BY THE COURT:
11 Q. Juror 163, I just had some follow up. You had indicated
12 for us that you live with relatives or friends. Can you tell
13 me those people that you live with, do any of of them work and,
14 if so, what they do?
15 A. Well, my aunt, she works for the Board of Education.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. My uncle is retired.
18 Q. All right. Thank you.
19 Juror 163, I will ask you to call back in on June 18th
20 and Mr. Fletcher will give you a sheet of paper to indicate
21 where you should call. Please remember my continuing
22 instructions. Please don't talk about this case at all or
23 anything to do with it. Please remember not to look at or
24 listen to or read anything to do with the case. If you should
25 see something just turn away.
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1 Remember, as I will tell the jurors finally selected,
2 they should always remember to keep an open mind until they
3 have heard all of the evidence, I have instructed them on the
4 law and they have gone to the jury room to begin their
5 deliberations. Fairness and justice requires that they do
6 that. All right?
7 Okay.
8 (Juror absent)
9 THE CLERK: 165 is next.
10 THE COURT: I should excuse 164.
11 (Continued on next page)
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1 (Juror present)
2 BY THE COURT:
3 Q. Good afternoon.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. Are you Juror 164?
6 A. Yes, please.
7 Q. Juror 164, I have gone over the information on the
8 questionnaire, and I will excuse you as a juror, so you can go
9 home and all the paperwork will be taken care of by mail.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. I appreciate your participating in the process.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. Okay?
14 A. Thank you.
15 (Juror absent)
16 (Juror present)
17 BY THE COURT:
18 Q. Please, have a seat.
19 A. Thank you.
20 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 165.
21 A. Hello.
22 Q. It's nice to see you. Since you were here last, has
23 anything changed concerning your ability to serve as a juror in
24 this case or has anything occurred to you that may affect your
25 ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
3 chosen in this case will be Monday, June the 21st. So after
4 today, you won't have to call back until June the 18th.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. Does that present any serious hardship for you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken in anyone about
9 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
10 the case?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Has anyone else spoken to you about the case, and that
13 includes anyone here at the courthouse or any of the other
14 prospective jurors?
15 A. No.
16 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
17 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You mention that both your -- on the questionnaire, that
20 both your father and your brother were in the Navy.
21 A. Right.
22 Q. And how long ago was it that they got out?
23 A. My father was in World War II.
24 Q. Okay. Keep your voice up, maybe pull the microphone
25 closer.
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1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Thanks.
3 A. My father was in the 1940's. My brother, in probably the
4 early to mid 90's.
5 Q. Okay. Anything about that that would prevent you from
6 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You mentioned that you were on one civil jury trial. You
9 were a juror in a civil jury trial in Putnam County.
10 A. Right.
11 Q. That's state court?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And --
14 A. County.
15 Q. A long time ago?
16 A. Objection yeah. Over 25 years, I think.
17 Q. And it was a personal injury case?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you -- did the case get submitted to the jury?
20 A. No.
21 Q. It was resolved during the trial or before --
22 A. I think -- if I recall, it was some -- I guess something
23 that we should not have heard was brought out in court, so they
24 had to start over again. So we were dismissed.
25 Q. And is there anything about that process that would, or
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1 your dealings with the case and the participants in that case,
2 that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in
3 this case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You mention that among the organizations that you belong to
6 is the Support Connection?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what's the Support Connection?
9 A. It's a support group for women with cancer.
10 Q. Okay. And you mention that you listen to the radio during
11 your commute and you listen to a local station. Could you tell
12 me what station it is that you usually listen to?
13 A. There's New York stations -- I can't even think of the --
14 one of them is a Westchester station, WHUD. One is in
15 New York. They're mostly music stations.
16 Q. Okay. You mentioned that your sister's stepson was
17 involved in a traffic accident and they were sued. What
18 happened to that lawsuit?
19 A. I don't even know.
20 Q. Okay. Is there anything about that experience that would
21 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You indicated that your son-in-law was an officer with the
24 department of environmental protection?
25 A. Right.
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1 Q. Is that right?
2 A. Right.
3 Q. What sort of work does he do for the DEP?
4 A. He's an officer. He patrols upstate.
5 Q. Okay. In connection with possible pollution or?
6 A. Well, I guess there's a lot of reservoirs up there, so I
7 think that's a lot of what they're keeping an eye on is the
8 water supply.
9 Q. Anything about that that would prevent you from being a
10 fair and impartial juror in this case?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Will you follow my instruction that no witness is entitle
13 to do any greater or lesser credibility just because of their
14 occupation, and that includes law enforcement officers?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You mention that in the past, you've worked with people of
17 Middle Eastern descent. Do you recall what countries they came
18 from or --
19 A. No. I work in a big office. There's a lot of people with
20 a lot of different backgrounds. But I haven't worked closely
21 with anyone.
22 Q. Okay. Do you have any biases or prejudices towards people
23 of Middle Eastern descent or people of the Islamic faith?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You mention that you had -- you were not very knowledgeable
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1 about Islam, but the knowledge you had came from media and
2 museum visits?
3 A. Yeah, the art museum. Metropolitan, you know, art museum.
4 And really, it's very, very, very limited knowledge.
5 Q. Okay. Is there anything about anything you've seen, heard
6 or read that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
7 juror in this case?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You mentioned that you had acquaintances at work who were
10 killed in 9/11?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. Can you tell me how many acquaintances?
13 A. Two.
14 Q. And how close were they to you?
15 A. No, they were just acquaintances. People that I used to
16 work with that -- at the time of the 9/11 incident I did not
17 work with them.
18 Q. So they were former coworkers?
19 A. Right, right.
20 Q. Now, the -- this case does not involve 9/11, and none of
21 the defendants in this case are charged with any offences in
22 connection with 9/11. 9/11 is not involved in this case.
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. Now, is there anything about your knowledge of these
25 acquaintances that would prevent you from being a fair and
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1 impartial juror in this case, listening to the evidence or lack
2 of evidence in this case and deciding in this case, based
3 solely on the evidence or lack of evidence and my instructions
4 on the law?
5 A. No.
6 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would be
7 required to decide this case based solely on the evidence or
8 lack of evidence and my instructions on the law. Will you do
9 that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And as you can tell from all of my questions, the
12 fundamental issue of whether there is anything in your personal
13 history or life experience, whether I've asked you about it
14 specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a fair
15 and impartial juror in this case, so let me ask you one final
16 time whether there is anything, whether I've asked you about it
17 specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a fair
18 and impartial juror in this case?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. Thank you, Juror 165. Could you step out for a
21 moment?
22 A. Sure.
23 (Juror absent)
24 THE COURT: All right. No questions and no
25 challenges. Call Juror 165 back in.
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1 (Juror present)
2 BY THE COURT:
3 Q. Hi.
4 A. Hello.
5 Q. Juror 165, you're still involved in the jury selection
6 process, so I'll ask you to call back on June the 18th.
7 Mr. Fletcher will give you a piece of paper to remind you about
8 who to call, and I'll ask you also to continue to follow my
9 instructions: Please, don't talk about this case or anything
10 to do with it. Please don't look at or listen to or read
11 anything to do with the case. As I'll tell the jurors who are
12 finally selected: Always remember to keep an open mind until
13 you've heard all of the evidence in the case, I've instructed
14 you on the law, and you've gone to the jury room to begin your
15 deliberations. Fairness and justice to the parties requires
16 that you do that. All right?
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. Good to see you.
19 A. Thank you.
20 (Juror absent)
21 DEPUTY CLERK: 172.
22 U.S. MARSHAL: 172.
23 DEPUTY CLERK: If 167 is there, you can bring them;
24 otherwise, 172.
25 U.S. MARSHAL: Okay.
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1 MR. DEMBER: Are you skipping 167?
2 DEPUTY CLERK: Missing.
3 (Juror present)
4 DEPUTY CLERK: 172?
5 JUROR: Yes, sir.
6 BY THE COURT:
7 Q. Hi. Please have a seat. Good afternoon, Juror 172.
8 A. Good afternoon, Sir.
9 Q. It's good to see you. Since you were here last, has
10 anything changed concerning your ability to serve as a juror in
11 this case or has anything occurred to you that may affect your
12 ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
13 A. My health, sir. My blood pressure is very high, and my
14 doctor's very concerned. I went last Wednesday for a checkup,
15 and it's very high. He's very concerned about it. And he's --
16 it depends upon how -- what it is at the end of this week as to
17 whether I will have to change my medication, and it also
18 requires me to go to the bathroom quite frequently.
19 Q. Okay. Now, the issue of the bathroom, I -- are you taking,
20 right now, do you take water pills?
21 A. I take Norvasc for the high blood pressure and Lipitor for
22 my cholesterol. I take it twice a day, in the mornings and in
23 the afternoons, and right now my blood pressure is very high.
24 Right now, today, this morning, it was 190 over 80, which is
25 very high.
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1 Q. Now, we don't sit for longer than a an hour and a half or
2 so at a time. Maybe up to two hours. But if any of the jurors
3 needed a break, we can always take a rest room break.
4 A. I know. The doctor's concerned about my having a stroke,
5 because I've had this for the past couple of years, on and --
6 it fluctuates and -- it decreases and fluctuates. It's an
7 ongoing thing. I have headaches when it gets high, so I can't
8 really concentrate too clearly. So I wouldn't be able to
9 really, you know, be very observant of what was going on.
10 Q. The doctor thinks you should not serve as a juror, I take
11 it?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Can you step out for a moment?
14 A. Sure.
15 (Juror absent)
16 THE COURT: I'll excuse the juror.
17 MR. DEMBER: We agree, your Honor.
18 MR. RUHNKE: We agree.
19 (Juror present)
20 BY THE COURT:
21 Q. All right. Juror 172, I'll excuse you as a juror. All of
22 your paperwork will be taken care of in the mail, and you can
23 go home now.
24 A. Thank you, Sir.
25 (Juror absent)
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1 DEPUTY CLERK: 173.
2 (Juror present)
3 BY THE COURT:
4 Q. Hi.
5 A. Hi.
6 Q. Good afternoon Juror 173. It's good to see you.
7 A. It's nice to see you.
8 Q. You indicated on your form that, on the questionnaire, that
9 serving on the jury would not be a serious hardship for you; is
10 that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You had also indicated that you didn't know if your salary
13 would be paid?
14 A. Yes. I think it won't be.
15 Q. I'm sorry?
16 A. For certainty, I don't believe it will be.
17 Q. But even though your salary won't be paid, that would not
18 be a serious economic hardship for you?
19 A. Well, I did go back and think about that some more, and I
20 think it will be a serious hardship. Because it would only be
21 $40 a day.
22 Q. $40 a day, and then after some period of time, it goes up
23 to $50 a day. And could you pull the microphone towards you?
24 A. Sure.
25 Q. You indicated that you work for a --
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1 A. Accounting firm.
2 Q. For an accounting firm?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are you sure that they don't pay for jury service?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You've checked with them?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So would the loss of that income for you be a serious
9 economic hardship? When you had filled out the questionnaire,
10 you didn't think so.
11 A. Yeah, I didn't think it through like I should have. But I
12 think, after going back and thinking about it some more, I
13 think it will present a serious hard ship for me.
14 Q. All right. Can you step out?
15 A. Yes.
16 (Juror absent)
17 THE COURT: I'm prepared to make further inquiries or
18 to excuse the juror at this point.
19 MR. RUHNKE: We don't think any further inquiry is
20 required.
21 MR. DEMBER: Neither do we, your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Okay. I'll excuse Juror 173.
23 (Juror present)
24 BY THE COURT:
25 Q. Juror 173, I will excuse you.
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1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Your paperwork will be taken care of through the mail. And
3 you can go home now.
4 A. Okay, thank you.
5 Q. All right.
6 (Juror absent)
7 THE COURT: Juror 176.
8 DEPUTY CLERK: 176.
9 (Juror present)
10 BY THE COURT:
11 Q. Hi, Juror 176. It's good to see you. Let me ask you some
12 preliminary questions. Since you were here last, has anything
13 changed concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this
14 case or has anything occurred to you that may affect your
15 ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
16 A. No.
17 Q. It now appears that the date that the jury will be chosen
18 in this case will be Monday, June the 21st. So you won't have
19 to call back or do anything in the case until June the 18th.
20 Does that present any serious hardship for you?
21 A. Oh, yes.
22 Q. What's that?
23 A. I didn't hear that good.
24 Q. Maybe I wasn't clear. The jury in this case will only be
25 chosen now on June the 21st.
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1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. And so you won't have to call in or do anything in
3 connection with the case until June the 18th. If you continue
4 in this case, you'll have to call back on June the 18th.
5 A. Yes, I understood that.
6 Q. All right. Now, does that present any hardship for you?
7 A. No, Sir.
8 Q. Okay. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone
9 about the case or have you looked at or listened to anything
10 about the case?
11 A. No, Sir.
12 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case?
13 A. No, I haven't talked to anyone about it. I live alone.
14 Q. I'm sorry?
15 A. I live alone in my house.
16 Q. Oh, okay. And when -- while you were waiting with the
17 other prospective jurors, did you talk to anyone and did anyone
18 talk to you or did you overhear anyone talking about the case?
19 A. No, Sir.
20 Q. Okay. You are 70 years old and I appreciate your
21 participation in the jury process. And I appreciate your being
22 a responsible citizen. I want to make sure that you understand
23 that if you wished to be excused or deferred based on your age,
24 you could be if you wanted to be. Do you wish to be excused or
25 deferred or do you want to continue with the case?
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1 A. I wish I could continue.
2 Q. Certainly.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Absolutely. That's completely up to you. You've told me
5 that you live by yourself, right?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. What type of work did you do before you retired?
8 A. I was truck driver.
9 Q. I'm sorry?
10 A. A truck driver.
11 Q. Oh, truck driver. Okay. You also mentioned that -- was it
12 you who served in the Army? Or was it someone --
13 A. Yes, sir, in Korea.
14 Q. You served?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And is there anything about that experience that would
17 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
18 A. No, I don't have anything.
19 Q. You answered all of the questions on the questionnaire, but
20 there was one question that was stuck in that you overlooked.
21 So let me ask it: Do you know just from looking at the other
22 prospective jurors, was there anyone whom you recognized that
23 you knew among all of the jurors here?
24 A. No, I didn't know any one of them. Not before.
25 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would be
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1 required to decide this case based solidly on the evidence or
2 lack of evidence and in accordance with my instructions on the
3 law.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Will you do that?
6 A. Oh, yes.
7 Q. As you can tell from all of my questions, the fundamental
8 issue is whether there is anything in your personal history or
9 life experience that would prevent you from being a fair and
10 impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one final time
11 whether there is anything, whether I have asked you about it
12 specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a fair
13 and impartial juror in this case?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. Could you step out just for a
16 moment?
17 A. Thank you.
18 (Juror absent)
19 THE COURT: No further questions, and no challenges?
20 MR. TIGAR: Excuse me, your Honor. He did say he
21 lives alone in his house, but on Question 8 he says he lives
22 with relatives and friends.
23 THE COURT: Okay. I'll ask him. Thank you.
24 MR. TIGAR: Could you also ask him, your Honor, does
25 he have a hearing problem?
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1 THE COURT: We seemed to have -- I'll ask him, but we
2 seemed to have been communicating fine.
3 (Juror present)
4 BY THE COURT:
5 Q. Hi. I just had some follow-up questions. On the -- in
6 response to one of the questions on the questionnaire, you
7 indicated that you lived with relatives or friends. Could you
8 just explain to me, do you live with relatives or friends or do
9 you live alone, or how --
10 A. No, no, I live alone. But I have friends. I have friends,
11 and my sons, my daughter. But I live alone in my house, in my
12 apartment.
13 Q. Okay. You have -- do you have any children?
14 A. Children? I have three. But they all are married and they
15 have their own.
16 Q. Okay. Tell me the house that -- do you live in an
17 apartment?
18 A. Yes, I have an apartment for the senior citizen. A
19 government.
20 Q. Okay. And is that -- do you live with other senior
21 citizens?
22 A. Yes, at the house.
23 Q. And you have your own apartment there?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. So you don't live with anyone else in your particular
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1 apartment?
2 A. No. I just visit my family.
3 Q. Okay. Now, you mention that you have children. But
4 they're all married and they don't live with you?
5 A. Yes, Sir.
6 Q. Okay. And can you tell me what those children do? Do they
7 work, your children?
8 A. Oh, yes.
9 Q. And what do they do?
10 A. My older one work at the -- computer, technical computer.
11 My second one, with the government, how you say it -- he's a
12 toll collector.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. And my daughter, she's living in Long Island. She's
15 working, also, there. But I don't know what kind of job she
16 have now.
17 Q. You don't know what she does?
18 A. No.
19 Q. How long has it been since you were retired?
20 A. How long? Since 1976.
21 Q. Is there have you ever served on a jury before?
22 A. No. I have been called a few times, but have never served
23 as a juror.
24 Q. Okay. Have you carefully listened to all of my questions?
25 A. Yes, sir.
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1 Q. Did you have any trouble hearing any of my questions?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you have any hearing difficulty at all?
4 A. Hearing? No, Sir.
5 Q. Okay. When I described this case for you in the other
6 courtroom, had you ever heard about this case at all?
7 A. No, Sir.
8 Q. Have you heard about any of the parties or lawyers in this
9 case?
10 A. No, Sir.
11 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, would you
12 decide this case based solely on the evidence or lack of
13 evidence in this case and my instructions on the law?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Okay. Can you step out just for a moment?
16 (Juror absent)
17 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, there are a number of gaps in
18 the juror's presentation that give us pause about whether he
19 understood the questionnaire. He says he was retired in -- and
20 that would make him at the age of 42, based on what he said.
21 He did not list his children, and --
22 THE COURT: That's why I went over it with him.
23 MR. TIGAR: But the questionnaire clearly called for
24 him to list the children. He says he lives alone in a house,
25 but it is apparently a senior citizen type compound. It's hard
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1 to know exactly what that situation is. In short, there are
2 these communication gaps that give us pause with respect to his
3 ability to fully deal with the evidence in a long and complex
4 trial.
5 THE COURT: Government?
6 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, just from your questions here
7 today and from looking at the questionnaire where he does
8 answer practically all the questions and gives responsive
9 answers to those questions, it appears as if he understands
10 English more than sufficiently to be a juror in this case.
11 THE COURT: Yes. All right.
12 MR. DEMBER: I don't think a cause challenge really is
13 appropriate here.
14 THE COURT: Okay. There's no challenge for cause
15 here. It is a -- he explained to me the fact that he lives in
16 a senior citizen home and has his own residence there. So he
17 lives alone, which is why he explained it that way. He is a
18 person who answered lots of the individual questions with very
19 specific answers. But it's also clear that he has no knowledge
20 of the facts of this case, no knowledge of any of the parties,
21 and that he will decide this case based solely upon the
22 evidence or lack of evidence and my instructions on the law.
23 He's also clearly someone who's impartial and will be
24 impartial. And he understood everything that I said when he
25 didn't understand something because it was probably my fault,
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1 he asked for an explanation, and I provided it to him.
2 So, the -- it is not a challenge for cause, and I will
3 have the juror call back on June the 18th.
4 (Juror present)
5 BY THE COURT:
6 Q. Juror 176, you are still in the jury selection process. So
7 please call back on June the 18th, and Mr. Fletcher will give
8 you a slip of paper with the instructions about how to call
9 back on June the 18th.
10 A. Okay, Sir.
11 Q. And it's very important that you continue to follow my
12 instructions.
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Please, don't talk about this case at all or anything to do
15 with it. Remember to keep an open mind until you've heard all
16 of the evidence, I've instructed you on the law and you've gone
17 to the jury room to begin your deliberations. Remember not to
18 look at or listen to anything to do with the case.
19 A. Right, yes.
20 Q. Good to see you.
21 A. All right. Thank you.
22 Q. And you may go home.
23 (Juror absent)
24 DEPUTY CLERK: 180.
25 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, before the juror comes in, are
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1 the juror questionnaires being saved as exhibits for the
2 qualified jurors?
3 THE COURT: Oh yes.
4 MR. TIGAR: It's not necessary for me to preserve my
5 record on the cause challenge to ask that the questionnaire be
6 marked for the record? They were all preserved for the record?
7 THE COURT: I'm saving all the questionnaires.
8 MR. TIGAR: Thank you.
9 (Juror present)
10 BY THE COURT:
11 Q. Please, have a seat. Good afternoon, Juror 180.
12 A. Good afternoon.
13 Q. It's good to see you. Since you were here last, has
14 anything changed concerning your ability to serve as a juror in
15 this case or has anything occurred to you that may affect your
16 ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
17 A. No.
18 Q. It now appears that the final jury will be chosen in this
19 case on Monday, June 21st. So after today, it's unlikely that
20 you'll be called back before June the 18th. Does that present
21 any serious hardship for you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about
24 this case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
25 the case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
3 any conversations here at the courthouse or with any other
4 prospective jurors?
5 A. No.
6 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
7 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You mentioned that you had a serious hardship?
10 A. Well, I had to file for bankruptcy, so....
11 Q. Could you talk into the microphone?
12 A. I had to file for bankruptcy, because my husband doesn't
13 work consistently.
14 Q. I'm sorry, your --
15 A. My husband doesn't work consistently and we've fallen on
16 some difficulties with our mortgage.
17 Q. Okay. Well, the question would be whether you -- whether
18 serving on this jury would interfere with either of your jobs
19 in the sense of, you know, your income.
20 A. Well, it probably would, only because I really -- I don't
21 know the plan that my primary job would have in the case of me
22 serving as a --
23 Q. Could you keep your voice up?
24 A. I'm sorry. My primary job, I'm not sure how long they
25 would pay. I do know that they pay for my jury duty at the
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1 present time. But I'm not sure how that would play out if it
2 was a long-term case. And the second job, it's part-time, and
3 they basically, I guess, have the right to not pay me. But
4 they haven't really told me, so....
5 Q. You indicated that on your questionnaire, if you could
6 serve without losing your second job, you would be honored to
7 serve.
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. And you thought that your first job did pay for jury
10 service?
11 A. That's correct. I thought that they did pay, because if I
12 were like on a local jury -- you know, like in my town and I
13 was out for a week or two weeks, they probably would pay. I
14 don't know if there's a precedent for a longer case. So I
15 really don't know if it would be paid for four months or for
16 six months.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. Because they do have in our personnel policy that -- you
19 know, for people in military service and for jury duty, so
20 there are provisions there. I'm not really well versed in the
21 whole policy about it.
22 Q. That's your first job?
23 A. That's my primary job, yes.
24 Q. Now, how about your second job?
25 A. I believe they have said to me that they wouldn't pay me.
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1 Q. Okay. Now, your second job was part-time?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. We don't sit on Fridays and we don't sit after about 4:30;
4 we don't sit weekends. Is there -- what is it that you do in
5 your part-time job?
6 A. I work as a receptionist at a physical therapy center, and
7 my hours are typically from 5:00 to 8:00.
8 Q. Okay. Would the loss -- your second job wouldn't pay you?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. And would the loss of the income from the second job be a
11 serious economic hardship for you?
12 A. I'm not sure if I would use the word "serious", because
13 I've been there for five years, and in my personal life, at the
14 present time, I'm trying to think about not having to have that
15 second job. And basically trying to live more within our means
16 and maybe make better use of my day time. So if that had to
17 be, I still -- the honor would be to do my civic duty.
18 Q. Okay. So really the issue of hardship for you comes down
19 to the first job and whether they pay you?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. All right. Let me ask you the -- some other questions.
22 Without telling me where you work, could you just explain to me
23 what you do in your primary job, the day job?
24 A. I'm an administrator in a daycare center, the center
25 director. I supervise staff.
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1 Q. Okay. And the part-time job you have is as a receptionist?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. You mention that you have step-children who are in the
4 military?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And are they currently in the military?
7 A. One is currently in the Navy; and the other is in the ROTC
8 program at her college, for air force.
9 Q. Okay. Is there anything about -- and you also mention that
10 your stepson was in the Persian Gulf War in 2003?
11 A. Correct.
12 (Continued on next page)
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20
21
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1 Q. And is he home now?
2 A. Yes, he is.
3 Q. And that you have had family and friends, you have your
4 stepson and you also have friends who were in Iraq and Kuwait?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Are they still there or home?
7 A. No, they are presently home.
8 Q. Okay.
9 And you also have a friend who is going to Iraq.
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. Next month in June?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And how close a friend is that?
14 A. Since my husband is in the entertainment industry, he does
15 music work and the friends that we have are the young men in
16 the band and one of these young men is actually returning to
17 Iraq. He is being redeployed.
18 Q. Okay.
19 Is there anything about your knowledge of any of those
20 people, your relationships with any of those people that would
21 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You mentioned that your husband has been involved with
24 legal disputes with his sister and brother-in-law?
25 A. That is correct.
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1 Q. And that he sued them and was sued. What happened to that
2 litigation?
3 A. Well, the first litigation he lost and we had to leave the
4 family home and they gave us a small monetary settlement to
5 relocate. It stemmed basically from the father's will-
6 Q. Keep your voice up.
7 A. I am sorry. That litigation stemmed from the father's will
8 which he didn't contest and the father had promised him the
9 property and they said that it wasn't written down, so he lost
10 that.
11 The present one that he is involved in is about the
12 will of his mother and that she signed over everything to the
13 sister and brother-in-law and did-while she made provision in
14 her will that the estate be split between the sister and the
15 brother, there doesn't seem to be much to split. So he is
16 contesting how they apportioned out the estate.
17 Q. And that litigation is ongoing?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Is there anything about your experiences with the
20 litigation process, with the lawsuits and the various
21 participants in those lawsuits that would prevent you from
22 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You mentioned that either you or someone close to you has
25 been a member of an organization that takes positions on gun
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1 control, such as the National Rifle Association.
2 A. My husband had applied once for membership and that was a
3 long time ago.
4 Q. I am sorry, your husband what?
5 A. My husband had, you know, signed for one year for
6 membership to get the NRA and he never followed through on it
7 after that.
8 Q. How long ago was that?
9 A. Ten, 15 years.
10 Q. Okay, thank you.
11 Anything about that would prevent you from being a
12 fair and impartial juror in this case?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You mentioned that your husband had a bad experience with a
15 lawyer. Could you describe that for me?
16 A. Yes, that went with the first litigation with his family.
17 A lawyer he had hired he found out was basically friendly with
18 his sister and brother-in-law and so he let him go and hired
19 another lawyer.
20 Q. Okay.
21 Is there anything about that experience that would
22 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Would you hold that experience against any of the lawyers
25 in this case or any of the parties in this case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. You had said that you were against extremist views held by
3 radicals who advocate violence against innocents. Can you
4 explain to me what you meant by that?
5 A. Well, that would be anyone who basically has such a belief
6 that they are the only correct and righteous judgment that they
7 have the power to judge others and execute judgment upon them.
8 That is what I mean, and there are many groups that that would
9 cover.
10 Q. Okay.
11 Now, if you were chosen as a juror in this case, you
12 would have to listen to the evidence in this case, and you
13 would have to ask whether the charges in this case were proven
14 beyond a reasonable doubt. You would have to put aside
15 anything you had seen, heard or read. You would have to put
16 aside any personal views that you had and look at the case
17 solely on the issue of whether the charges in the indictment
18 have been proved beyond a reasonable doubt at trial based on
19 the evidence or lack of evidence, and my instructions on the
20 law.
21 If you were chosen as a juror in this case, would you
22 do that?
23 A. I believe I could do that.
24 Q. You say you believe you would do that or could do that.
25 Would you do that?
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1 A. Yes, I would do that.
2 Q. Do you have any question about whether you could do that?
3 A. I am not sure what you mean by question.
4 Q. Well, do you have any doubt in your mind that you would be
5 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
6 A. I would have to say that based on evidence or facts
7 presented to me I would have to make a fair decision. Often in
8 my work in child care I have to listen to both sides of the
9 story and basically come to some sort of understanding of what
10 has happened. So I try to look at the individuals on both
11 sides. This would be a little bit more serious in terms of
12 probably physical evidence, things of that nature, but I do
13 believe that I could do that.
14 Q. Based upon -- have you heard anything, read anything about
15 the parties in this case?
16 A. I am unfamiliar with them. I don't know them at all.
17 Q. The defendants in the case are Ahmed Sattar, Lynne Stewart
18 and Mohammed Yousry. Okay? Have you ever heard of or do you
19 know or have you ever had any contact with them?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Have you ever heard of Sheikh Abdel Rahman?
22 A. Yes, I have heard of him in the news.
23 Q. Okay. Can you recall what it is that you heard about him?
24 A. I think that was the 1993 World Trade Center, that is all I
25 can remember, that he is blind. That is about all I remember
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1 of that case.
2 Q. All right.
3 In response to the one question on the questionnaire
4 when I asked whether you had heard of any of the defendants,
5 you said yes, just cursory news items, no more than that.
6 A. Right. That is basically how I remember them.
7 Q. Can you tell me what cursory news items you recall about
8 the defendants?
9 A. I mean, you know, I watch the news pretty much every day
10 now and so I probably have heard it on CNN or NBC or Fox News.
11 Q. Okay.
12 What is it that you recall hearing, if anything?
13 A. Quite honestly, I can't remember other than what I just
14 said to you about the sheikh being blind and that it was the
15 1993 World Trade Center. I really truly can't remember what it
16 was.
17 Q. Okay.
18 You had mentioned that you had -- you were asked
19 whether you knew anyone who had been injured or killed in an
20 act of terrorism, and you said you knew someone who was injured
21 slightly in the World Trade Center?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. On 9/11. How close was that person to you?
24 A. One of my co-workers, it's her husband, and he worked in
25 one of the buildings nearby. And in terms of injury it would
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1 be mostly the emotional affects that he has been suffering.
2 Q. I am sorry --
3 A. In terms of injury I don't believe he suffered physical
4 injury, although he was covered with the concrete dust when he
5 walked out of Manhattan. But he still suffers emotionally from
6 it.
7 Q. Okay.
8 This case has nothing to do with 9/11. The defendants
9 are not charged with having done anything in connection with
10 9/11. The case simply doesn't involve 9/11.
11 Is there anything about your relationship with the
12 other person or your reaction to 9/11 that would prevent you
13 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
14 A. No, I don't believe so. No.
15 Q. The jurors who sit in this case will be instructed that
16 they must base their decisions entirely on the evidence
17 produced in court and not from any outside source or
18 pre-existing opinion or attitudes. Can you do that despite
19 anything you may have read, seen or heard about anything to do
20 with this case?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you do it despite anything you may have heard, read or
23 seen?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, would you be
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1 fair and impartial?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would be
4 required to decide the case based solely on the evidence or
5 lack of evidence and in accordance with my instructions on the
6 law. Will you do that?
7 A. Yes, I would.
8 Q. And as you can tell from all of my questions, the
9 fundamental issue is whether there is anything in your personal
10 history or life experience that would prevent you from acting
11 as a fair and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you
12 one final time whether there is anything, whether I have asked
13 you about it specifically or not, that would prevent you from
14 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
15 A. No.
16 Q. All right.
17 Could you step out for a moment?
18 (Juror absent)
19 MR. TIGAR: One of the questions for follow-up, your
20 Honor. The juror said that she is accustomed to resolving
21 disputes in her work in the child care center and listening to
22 both sides and weighing the evidence. Would your Honor please
23 just make sure that she understands that we don't really have a
24 side?
25 THE COURT: Yes, sure, yes.
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1 MR. TIGAR: Thank you.
2 Anyone else?
3 What I intend to do is if this question doesn't
4 indicate any challenge for cause, is that I intend to tell the
5 juror that she has expressed some concern about her economic
6 situation. She works for a large organization and she should
7 check with the organization whether they will pay her and that
8 she should tell Mr. Grate, write a note to Mr. Grate as to
9 whether she will be paid and whether this presents a serious
10 economic hardship for her. And if it does, if she is not going
11 to be paid for her primary job, and that would be a serious
12 economic hardship, then I will show whatever she writes to the
13 parties but I would think that a serious economic hardship, but
14 we will have to wait to see what she says.
15 The parties agree?
16 MR. DEMBER: Yes, your Honor.
17 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Okay. All right.
19 (Juror present)
20 BY THE COURT:
21 Q. Hi.
22 Juror 180, let me follow up on one subject. You have
23 indicated that you are used to resolving disputes and that you
24 listen to both sides. Let me make sure that you understand
25 what the rules of law are that apply in this case.
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1 This is a criminal case and obviously, as you said, it
2 is much more serious than the disputes that you resolve in your
3 work. Plainly it is important, if you were chosen as a juror
4 in this case, to follow the law as it applies in this case.
5 Among the rules of law are all of the defendants are presumed
6 to be innocent. That is a presumption that continues that they
7 have now and that continues with them through the trial and
8 into deliberations.
9 The defendants don't have to prove or show anything.
10 It is the government that is required to prove the charges in
11 the indictment beyond a reasonable doubt. It is perfectly
12 sufficient for the defendants to stand on the presumption of
13 innocence and to say as a matter of law that if the government
14 hasn't proven the charges in the indictment beyond a reasonable
15 doubt based upon the evidence or lack of evidence, then the
16 jury must return a verdict of not guilty.
17 The defendants don't have to do or say anything.
18 Do you understand that?
19 A. I do understand that.
20 Q. And will you follow those rules of law?
21 A. Yes, I will.
22 Q. All right.
23 Now, you left me with one issue with respect to the
24 issue of your possible economic hardship. What I am going to
25 do is to say please check with your employer. It's a large
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1 employer. They recognize jury service and, as I explained to
2 you, they plainly can't penalize you for being on jury service.
3 It's important to find out what their policy is with respect to
4 paying people while they are on jury service. And I understand
5 from you that if they do pay you, then it's not economic
6 hardship and you would then be able to continue in the jury
7 selection process.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So I am going to give you or have Mr. Fletcher give you a
10 slip to indicate that you should call back on June 18th for the
11 continuing jury selection process. But meanwhile what I want
12 you to do is to check with your employer, don't tell your
13 employer what case you are involved in at all, just say that
14 you are in a case for which you have been asked to be a juror
15 and it's a long trial that may last 4 to 6 months, what is the
16 policy with respect to paying employees? Then write a note to
17 Mr. Grate explaining what your situation is.
18 If there is no economic hardship, you will follow up
19 and call back in on June 18th. But Mr. Grate will get back to
20 you. But follow up on this quickly and remember to follow my
21 continuing instructions. Please don't talk about this case at
22 all or anything to do with it, don't look at or listen to or
23 read anything to do with the case. Remember to keep an open
24 mind until you have heard all of the evidence, I have
25 instructed you on the law, and you have gone to the jury room
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1 to begin your deliberations if you are eventually chosen to be
2 a juror, all right?
3 A. Thank you very much.
4 Q. Okay.
5 (Juror absent)
6 THE CLERK: 182.
7 (Juror present)
8 BY THE COURT:
9 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 182. It's nice to see you.
10 Let me ask you some preliminary questions. Since you
11 were here last has anything changed concerning your ability to
12 serve as a juror in this case or has anything occurred to you
13 that may affect your ability to be a fair and impartial juror
14 in this case?
15 A. I did read something inadvertently in the paper.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. I don't know if that has any bearing on anything.
18 Q. Well, I very much appreciate your bringing it to my
19 attention. Tell me what you inadvertently saw in the paper.
20 A. In our local paper --
21 Q. Keep your voice up. Your local paper --
22 A. Our local paper, there was a letter to the editor and as I
23 was reading the letter in one of the paragraphs there was a
24 reference to someone who was going to be put on trial for
25 helping someone who was in jail and then after I read it and I
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1 thought about it I realized that it might be one of the
2 potential defendants.
3 Q. Okay.
4 What is your local newspaper?
5 A. The Journal News.
6 Q. Okay.
7 And do you recall anything else about the letter?
8 A. Well, the letter was in reference to the Republican
9 Convention that will be held in New York City later on and he
10 was talking about whether it was a good idea to do it because
11 of possible terrorist acts.
12 Q. I am sorry?
13 A. I am sorry, he was saying that it might not be a good idea
14 to hold it because of possible terrorist acts and as the
15 paragraphs went down it led to this reference to a possible
16 defendant.
17 Q. Okay.
18 You said you inadvertently saw this. It wasn't a
19 letter that was about this case?
20 A. The letter I think was actually about the Republican
21 Convention that was to be held but as you went on in the letter
22 it made reference to this possible defendant.
23 Q. Did you see anything in the letter that different from
24 anything that I explained to you about what the charges in this
25 case were?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. As I told you before, it's possible that there could be
3 publicity about the case and what you have to do, if there is
4 any publicity, and you don't necessarily know where it's coming
5 from, if you do see something you just turn away.
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. And is there anything that has so affected you from what
8 you saw in the letter that it would prevent you from being a
9 fair and impartial juror in deciding this case solely on the
10 evidence or lack of evidence and my instructions on the law?
11 A. I don't think so.
12 Q. Do you have any question about that?
13 A. Me?
14 Q. Yes. You say you don't think so. People express
15 themselves in different ways.
16 A. I mean, like I said, I read it and it wasn't until after I
17 read it that it kind of hit a chord that it might be part of
18 this trial and then I just didn't really think about it
19 anymore.
20 Q. And really I very much appreciate your thoughtfulness and
21 conscientiousness in bringing it to my attention. So what I am
22 asking is one of the things that I give in my instructions and
23 that was even part of the questionnaire was if you see or hear
24 something in connection with the case, and there has been some
25 publicity prior to the case, you have to put aside any of that
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1 and decide the case based solely upon the evidence or lack of
2 evidence and my instructions on the law.
3 And will you do that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is there anything that was in that letter that you had seen
6 that would prevent you from doing that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. All right.
9 It now appears that the date that the final jury will
10 be chosen will be Monday, June 21st. So after today it's
11 unlikely that you will be called to come back before June 18th.
12 Does that present any serious hardship for you?
13 A. No. That should be okay.
14 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
15 the case or other than what you have already told me, have you
16 looked at or listened to anything about the case?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
19 any conversations here at the courthouse or with any other
20 prospective jurors?
21 A. People ask me, you know, like what case I am on but I tell
22 them I can't talk about it but, no, nobody has approached me or
23 anything.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you.
25 And you do exactly the right thing. All you have to
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1 do is to say the judge has told us we can't talk about it.
2 That is the simple answer.
3 While you were waiting with the other prospective
4 jurors, did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You indicated that your husband was in the Army?
7 A. Yes, reserves.
8 Q. Is he still in the Army?
9 A. No.
10 Q. How long since he has been in the Army?
11 A. I forget, in the '70s, so it has been quite a while.
12 Q. Okay.
13 Anything about that that would prevent you from being
14 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You mentioned that some of your friend's children are
17 serving in Iraq now?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay.
20 Anything about that that would prevent you from being
21 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
22 A. Well, I mean I feel bad that they are there and I am
23 sensitive to how they feel. I hope it wouldn't influence my
24 serving. I don't know. I don't know what to say.
25 Q. Okay.
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1 You say you hope it wouldn't.
2 Is there anything about that that leads you to think
3 that it might influence you in the way in which you view the
4 case or the evidence in the case or the allegations in the case
5 or anything like that?
6 A. I hope it wouldn't, but I couldn't say for sure. I don't
7 know how I would feel once I heard all the evidence and stuff.
8 I don't know.
9 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in the case, you would have
10 to listen carefully to the evidence or lack of evidence. You
11 would have to ask yourself whether the charges in the
12 indictment were proved beyond a reasonable doubt.
13 Would your concerns over friend's children in Iraq
14 influence you as you think about the charges in the case or the
15 evidence as I have explained it -- well, as I have explained
16 the charges to you?
17 A. I guess truthfully I would have to say it might.
18 Q. Okay. That is all that I am looking for in all of these
19 questions. It's very important to think about how you think
20 and what the allegations are and everything that I have told
21 you about the case. So you are absolutely right to tell me
22 exactly what is on your mind.
23 Can you step out please?
24 A. Sure.
25 (Juror absent)
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1 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, I would ask you to do what
2 you have done in situations where jurors have indicated that
3 they have lost people on September 11 of 2001, which is to tell
4 them that this case has nothing to do with what happened on
5 that particular day. Well, this case certainly has nothing to
6 do with what is going on in Iraq now or what has been going on
7 in Iraq. It's quite different and distinct. You haven't done
8 that with this juror.
9 THE COURT: There was a reason for that. But I will
10 ask some more questions, but then I also have to say I think in
11 fairness that in describing the charges there will certainly be
12 allegations of terrorism and the answers to these questions are
13 leading to only one conclusion, but I am happy to take the time
14 and further pursue them at this point.
15 I listen carefully and I follow up, which is why, as I
16 have explained repeatedly, there comes a point when the answers
17 to the questions are clear to me as to where they are going
18 that if I believe that there is a fair challenge for cause I
19 indicate that and I pursue the questions as thoroughly as
20 possible to make the determinations as to whether there is a
21 challenge for cause. Do you really want me to pursue this
22 further?
23 MR. DEMBER: May I have a moment to consult with my
24 colleague?
25 THE COURT: Sure.
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1 (Pause)
2 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, we would like you to pursue
3 further questions with this juror. What occurs to us is that
4 it's not clear to us that she is simply concerned about the
5 sons or daughters of friends who are in harm's way now and this
6 case obviously has to do with terrorism to a degree which
7 obviously could put people in harm's way, or is it a more
8 direct connection between what the children of her friends are
9 going through and this case. It's not clear. So we would ask
10 for at least a little more inquiry on the subject.
11 THE COURT: Sure.
12 MR. RUHNKE: Can we just weigh in a little from this
13 side? This is different from the 9/11 situation somewhat. It
14 has been our position that the 9/11 situation simply is an
15 equivalent statement to your concern generally about terrorism
16 but the President of the United States was on television last
17 night saying what is going on in Iraq is a war against
18 terrorism generally and to say this has nothing to do with Iraq
19 is to say this has nothing to do with terrorism, which I don't
20 think is the government's position. I mean, we don't think
21 there is any need for further questioning but your Honor
22 obviously has decided to question further.
23 THE COURT: Okay. I will ask certainly further
24 questions. As you know, I have pursued these issues in
25 exhaustive detail and I want to make sure that all sides are
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1 satisfied before I make a determination with respect to a
2 challenge for cause. So that is why I have conducted the
3 extensive inquiries that I have conducted.
4 Let's call 182 back in.
5 (Juror present)
6 BY THE COURT:
7 Q. Juror 182, let me just follow up.
8 Could you explain to me why your concerns over your
9 friend's children in Iraq might be an issue for you here? I
10 have described to you the allegations in this case and they are
11 plainly historical allegations in the sense that they deal with
12 things that have allegedly occurred in the past and the issue
13 would be whether the government has proven those charges beyond
14 a reasonable doubt at trial.
15 So why is it that you believe that there is something
16 about your friend's children that might somehow influence you
17 in connection with this case?
18 A. Well, because I feel bad that they are there and that we
19 are in a war, you know. You know, if I can express it. It's
20 just --
21 Q. Okay.
22 The allegations in this case don't relate to what is
23 going on in Iraq.
24 A. Right.
25 Q. There may well be allegations or evidence relating to what
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1 can be described as terrorism.
2 Is there anything about those allegations or the
3 nature of those allegations that would prevent you from being a
4 fair and impartial juror and deciding the case solely on the
5 evidence or lack of evidence with respect to the charges in
6 this indictment?
7 A. The more you keep asking the more I feel I can't do it. I
8 just feel I don't think I will be able to do it. I keep second
9 guessing myself.
10 Q. I am sorry?
11 A. I feel like I keep second guessing myself. I don't know --
12 the more you ask me the more I feel I don't think I could do
13 it, being impartial. I don't know.
14 Q. Could you explain to me a little more why that is true?
15 A. I guess because I tried not to think about it like after we
16 left that first day and you explained the charges, I tried not
17 to think about it.
18 Q. Right.
19 A. Now that you keep -- that we are talking about it, it kind
20 of dredges up memories and, you know, you think about the
21 people that are there and you empathize with the families and
22 of course the boys that are there, the boys and women and now I
23 am second guessing, maybe I wouldn't be a good juror. Maybe I
24 wouldn't be able to be impartial and clearly look at the
25 evidence as it is without thinking of those people or what has
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1 gone on in the past or what is going on today.
2 Q. You know, you are an honest, forthright, conscientious
3 person and that is all I ask.
4 The issue is the parties in the case are entitled to a
5 fair and impartial jury and have jurors look at the case, the
6 allegations in the case, look at their own personal history and
7 life experience and ask themselves, you know, will I be a fair
8 and impartial juror in this case? And if there are doubts that
9 a juror has, then the juror says the doubts. There is nothing
10 wrong with that. That is exactly what this whole process is
11 meant to do.
12 A. Then I guess I would have to say I have doubts.
13 Q. Okay.
14 Could you step out?
15 A. Sure.
16 (Juror absent)
17 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, we have no objection for this
18 juror to be excused.
19 THE COURT: Okay. I agree. Defendants agree?
20 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, we agree, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Let's call back in Juror 182.
22 (Juror present)
23 BY THE COURT:
24 Q. Hi.
25 Juror 182, I will excuse you.
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1 I want to emphasize to you that I really appreciate
2 your participation in the jury selection process and you should
3 take away from this process a personal satisfaction of knowing
4 that you have performed a public service by your participation
5 in the process. And so you are excused. You can go home and
6 all of the paperwork will be taken care of by mail.
7 A. Okay, thank you.
8 Q. Sure.
9 (Juror absent)
10 (Continued on next page)
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1 THE COURT: What about Juror 183? And Juror 167?
2 U.S. MARSHAL: 167 is not here.
3 DEPUTY CLERK: 184.
4 THE COURT: I'm sorry?
5 DEPUTY CLERK: 184.
6 THE COURT: Let's find out where the juror is.
7 (Off the record)
8 THE COURT: 184 is stricken; we'll excuse 184.
9 (Juror present)
10 BY THE COURT:
11 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 184.
12 A. Good afternoon.
13 Q. I've reviewed your questionnaire and I'm going to excuse
14 you as a juror. I very much appreciate your participation in
15 the process. All of the paperwork will be taken care of by
16 mail, and so you can go home now and you'll receive all the
17 paperwork in the mail.
18 A. Thank you.
19 Q. Thank you, Sir.
20 (Juror absent)
21 THE COURT: No further jurors left?
22 DEPUTY CLERK: I'll check.
23 MS. BAKER: May I addresses a housekeeping matter
24 while Mr. Fletcher is checking that? The government wrote a
25 letter on May 11, 2004 proposing a briefing schedule regarding
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1 motions to quash subpoenas that were delivered to Messrs. Fried
2 and Packer. And we have not seen a memorandum of law or
3 endorsement by the Court.
4 I don't know whether the Court considered that
5 scheduling order or not.
6 THE COURT: I thought that the schedule was fine.
7 I'll check why the endorsement didn't go out. I thought I had
8 endorsed the letter. Thank you.
9 Now, tomorrow we'll do the next 20, Which begins at
10 186. Number 82, Juror Number 186. And given the strikes
11 already, that means that tomorrow, I don't know if the jury
12 administrator will be able to bring in any people that we've
13 skipped over so far, but otherwise it goes to, in any event, on
14 the list, Number 108, Juror Number 233. Because 196 is
15 stricken, 200, 201, 202, 212, 102 will come in on May 28th.
16 229 is stricken.
17 You're not two days ahead anymore. I'm going to be
18 getting these questionnaires, I think, on Wednesday for the
19 jurors that I would be examining on Thursday. Isn't that
20 right?
21 MR. RUHNKE: If that's the case, we're moving faster
22 for some reason, maybe because we have we're striking the
23 jurors. But that is correct, to answer your question, your
24 Honor.
25 THE COURT: Can you get the questionnaires -- can you
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1 get me your questions tonight?
2 MR. RUHNKE: I can do this, your Honor: I've been
3 coordinating with other groups on one set. I think we can get
4 ours to you tonight. If Mr. Tigar and Mr. Fallick will have
5 additional questions to add to them, I doubt they'll be
6 extensive. Maybe just make up follow-up suggestions before the
7 juror actually comes in. I'm hearing from the group to my
8 right they're going to have difficulty because they're meeting
9 with witnesses tonight. We had expected not to have to get
10 those to you till tomorrow night.
11 THE COURT: All right. When tomorrow?
12 MR. RUHNKE: I'm saying I can get you the next 20
13 tonight.
14 THE COURT: Oh.
15 MR. RUHNKE: Especially since we're ending relatively
16 early tonight.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 MR. RUHNKE: And that if there are any additions to
19 that from the group to my right, they can get those to you
20 tomorrow. I doubt they'll be significant additions.
21 THE COURT: That's fine. The government also?
22 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, we've got 15 done, so I think
23 we can finish them tonight and get them out to you tonight.
24 THE COURT: Okay. Fax them.
25 MR. DEMBER: We'll fax them.
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1 THE COURT: And, you know, in order to stay on
2 schedule, you really should give me then another 20 on
3 Wednesday, and another 20 on Thursday, and another 20 on
4 Friday. And then, given the long weekend, another 30 on
5 Monday. And then 20 on Tuesday and Wednesday. And I think
6 that brings us -- will bring us pretty current.
7 MR. STERN: Judge, I want to maybe re-raise an issue
8 with you. We've heeded your advice and spoken with the
9 government about -- we're all in agreement about, you won't be
10 surprised to hear, not working on Friday. We promised the
11 jurors in the questionnaire, it's Page 4, Page 2, that they
12 will not work on Friday, and I think under the circumstances --
13 we have 32 qualified jurors now. We've been doing an average
14 of a little over six a day, which means in about 10 working
15 days -- today, we went faster, but generally six a day.
16 I think if we could have Friday off it will give us an
17 opportunity both to catch up on these questionnaires that
18 you're talking about and won't significantly slow down the
19 process. It will also give us a chance to do other things
20 that, as you might imagine, are difficult to do between doing
21 these -- questioning jurors during the day and doing the
22 questionnaires in the evening.
23 So since we have so much time before June 21st, that
24 one day I don't think will delay -- it will obviously delay
25 jury selection by one day, but won't delay the trial at all and
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1 give us all the chance to catch our breath and catch up on
2 things we've gotten behind on.
3 I think the government agrees, too, and it would be
4 useful to keep our promise made to the jurors in the
5 questionnaire.
6 THE COURT: How do your figures add up?
7 MR. STERN: My count is that we have 32 qualified
8 jurors, that we've been averaging a little over six a day. So
9 that even 60 more now would be 58 more -- when you said you
10 wanted 90, I'm not sure if that's still the number you want, we
11 should do that in 10 working days at six a day for 10 days.
12 Would be 60. We need 58.
13 THE COURT: I had said 90 might be possible -- that
14 gives us a cushion of 34. It may not be necessary to go up to
15 90.
16 MR. STERN: We've discussed it. We think it's not
17 necessary.
18 THE COURT: Everyone is shaking their heads.
19 MR. STERN: Right.
20 MR. RUHNKE: We have discussed this with the
21 government and we think even with a belt and suspenders,
22 thought 90 is way, way too many to need. There would have to
23 be some cataclysmic occurrence to have all of a sudden 20
24 jurors decide not to show up for jury selection. We think
25 picking 20 extra would still allow plenty of room.
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1 I mean, I don't want to bring too much personal
2 experience into this, but I've done struck jury systems with
3 this same method of jury selection on maybe 20 occasions. I
4 have never seen more than one or two jurors not show up at the
5 end of the process. So, for what it's worth....
6 THE COURT: Have you discussed it with the government
7 also, Mr. Stern?
8 MR. STERN: You mean not working Friday?
9 THE COURT: Yes.
10 MR. STERN: Yes. I think they eagerly agree.
11 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, we were asked earlier today.
12 We discussed it. Considering the fact that we had made some
13 representations to the jurors, we had agreed to jointly make
14 this request.
15 THE COURT: Oh, okay. Well, let me look at it
16 overnight and then tell you tomorrow.
17 MR. STERN: Fair enough.
18 THE COURT: The jurors won't be called for Friday
19 until Thursday evening in any event.
20 MR. PRICE: That's correct, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Okay. Okay. I'll think about it
22 overnight. Get me the questionnaires and I will talk to you
23 about it tomorrow.
24 Anything else?
25 MR. RUHNKE: No, your Honor. Thank you.
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1 THE COURT: Good evening, all.
2 MR. TIGAR: Good evening, your Honor.
3 MR. RUHNKE: Good evening.
4 MR. DEMBER: Good evening.
5 (Adjourned to Wednesday, May 26, 2004, @ 9:30 a.m.)
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