Updated 25 August 2002

21 August 2002

Cryptome welcomes comments on the AID-NIA spying database in response to an MSNBC report of August 21, 2002, Stolen data reveals undercover cops

A response to the comments:

Surveillance, overt and covert, is a principle tool for political and business control though always justified by accusations of criminality and threats to the nation. As amply demonstrated in the AID-NIA database as well as by other products and services of the booming spying market for the global business of government -- of which AID-NIA is but one hyper-patriotic domestic and national security hustler among many. Watch your wallet while our top-level protectors and their good-buddy suppliers fill theirs.

Don't believe what you read about threats to our public servants and their families; they are far better protected than any of us.

Cryptome was cautioned years back by former officials that "publishing names of officials puts them at risk" is a hoary deception to create sympathy among the gullible. Public servants are public servants, not covert. The calls for violence below (as with war) made by witting and unwitting agents of governments, and disguised peddlers of government products, fosters greater surveillance of citizens in the name of protecting them. Covert surveillance is bad public policy, too long justified by those who are unable to bear the mutual responsibility required by openness.

Cryptome has published several lists of names of US and other government agents, among them:

http://cryptome.sabotage.org/cia-2619.htm (US)

http://cryptome.sabotage.org/cia-ico.htm (US)

http://cryptome.sabotage.org/dea-il-spy.htm (US, Israel)

http://cryptome.sabotage.org/psia-lists.htm (Japan)

http://cryptome.sabotage.org/cia-iran-all.htm (Iran)

http://cryptome.sabotage.org/mi6-list.htm (UK)

http://cryptome.sabotage.org/mi5-lis-uk.htm (Libya)

Each led to protests about threats to those named, but as far as known none of the named agents have been harmed. In all cases, Cryptome learned later that the names were already public. Former officials say, even so, publication will not cause harm; instead what poses a threat is for agents not to know their names are being disseminated covertly. Open publication is an alert to what's out there in the dark. For the rest of us denial of information about who is spying on us is the true threat.

To: jya@pipeline.com
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 20:27:06 -0500
From: N

It is sad indeed that you would jeopardize the lives of hardworking police officers.  I do criminal defense work on occasion.  Of course there are a few loose cannons who make life difficult for everyone.  However, the overwhelming majority of law enforcement officials are decent people looking to server the public interest, and place their lives on the line every day so that you can exercise your privilege of free speech.  If any lose their life because of your carelessness, their blood will be on your hands.  Shame on you.

a lawyer who can distinguish the baby from the bath water

From: M
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 21:48:34 EDT
Subject: (no subject)
To: jya@pipeline.com

Go Fuck Yourself.  Freedom of speech is not what your organization is about, it is more of a gossip column with information that could hurt innocent people (family members, children of those you name on your website).  When our country handed down our rights, they were never meant to hurt or hind those who were involved in protecting their community or country.  Obviously you were never given common sense when it was being doled out or you would know that.

From: S
To: <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 19:23:08 -0700

If it is true you have revealed the names of men and women who are working undercover to keep drugs out of this country, then you have crossed the line.  It is true that the public eye needs to stay on the government to ensure it's integrity, but no one has the right to jeapordize the lives of those who work to ensure public safety.

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 20:47:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: B
To: jya@pipeline.com

I read the article on the msn site about your website posting the identities of undercover agents. If the article is accurate, you are endangering their lives by doing so. Those people are just trying to make a living like you and I. In their eyes they are serving their country. I realize that you might be against such surveillance practices, but keep in mind, those agents did not make the policies they are enforcing, the government did. If you have a problem with the policy, you need to contact your congressman. That is the democratic process in this country. If you have a problem with that process, then you need to move to another country. Also, by endangering them, you endanger their families who are innocent bystanders. You have no right to do so. I hope that the article is inaccurate reporting and that you have not done such a thoughtless and unpatriotic thing.

From: D
To: <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: You should be ashamed!
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 20:54:40 -0700

If you have any sense at all you will pull the list of Law Enforcement Officers off of your webpage. This is totally irresponsible especially in this day in age. I feel that your action is treason and I hope that you are prosecuted. Maybe you should consider leaving this country if you hate it so much. We sir are a coward.

From: A
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 02:29:44 EDT
Subject: question
To: jya@pipeline.com

i love your site and the attitude that you run it with. i am looking for information on highway narcotic trafficking activities of every state police agency. what i am specifically looking for is statistics of there "success" rate. i would appreciate any and all information/help you can provide me, thank you for your time.

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:37:06 +0200
From: A
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: free speech and law enforcement

"N" wrote: [see above]

Can you please let "N" to read my comment?

Dear Sir,

may be you can distinguish the baby from the bath water, but are you certain you are a lawyer?

I was convinced a lawyer living in the country who propose herself as the champion of freedom and democracy should bear clear in his mind the difference between a privilege and a right.

A right that as been  conquered with an Independence war, sustained with a civil war, reconquered for the Europeans brothers against the Nazi with the sacrifice of hundred of thousands jong American lives and defended again from the "real communism" of the soviet imperialism.

The right, the distinctive characteristic, who makes the difference between: a state in which hardworking police officers are  "law enforcement officials",  decent people looking to serve the public interest defending the rights, the properties and the lives of all the citizens, rich or poor, strong or faible, in the respect of The CONSTITUTION at cost of placing their own lives on the line every day in a free, democratic country and a state in which they are  "dirty-workers" who keep together  the oppressive "police state" of a hideous dictator.

From: J
To: <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: stolen data reveals undercover cops
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 05:09:45 -0700

with all due respect to the sanctity of free speech, and your watchdog efforts re government hypocrisy, i am appalled that you posted identifying info on ordinary working people--men with families and children--that might put them in danger. These are people who work in terribly stressful jobs for relatively low pay dealing with society's low-lifes--so you and I can walk down the street in peace.

what is your point? try as i might, i can't see any justification in what you have done--morally, ethically, philosophically, whatever... it is just plain wrong. attacking activities/ideas you disagree with is one thing, attacking private individuals is quite another.

i hope ashcroft nails you with one of his onerous new regulations.

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 06:46:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: C
Subject: Stolen data reveals undercover cops
To: jya@pipeline.com

You have got to be the biggest asshole & traitor since John Walker Lindh.  Of course we don't want our government to cross the boundaries & infringe on our rights & privacy.  Nevertheless, I would rather the law enforcement officers, etc. do the job they are doing, so I can feel safe to go about my life in this country.  Those individuals are only doing their job. You are endangering not only their's & their family's lives, but also the lives of Americans as well in these troubled times.  You are compromising our security for your own self-righteous, paranoia-driven crusade.

By the way, you should publish your home address, phone number & other valuable information.  Let's see how you like the exposure.

[Note: John Young's address and phone number are available here.]

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 07:04:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: X
Subject: It's about time ...
To: jya@pipeline.com

I'm tired of this sick and corrupt government we have put in charge of our lives.  I wish that every one of them would rot in hell.  Drug coming into this country ... what a joke.  If the goverment didn't let drugs in the whole economy would probably fold do to the sensless spending that they do every single day to support their corrupt and plush lifestyles.

Name a single officer that has turned in the full amount seized at any raid, they are all just whores ripping off the pimp, the US government.

If a few get picked off ... I say good riddens.  There would be less buyers in the drug trade.

From: B
To: <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Question
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 08:44:14 -0600

Well, needless to say, I'm thrilled to have discovered your site.  I've been watching our privacy vanishing for years and now I can see it occurring at a much higher and more subtle level. I arrived at your page from the MSNBC article, Stolen data reveals undercover cops.

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 07:45:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: J
Subject: MSNBC article on exposure of U.S. Undercover operators
To: jya@pipeline.com

I am a strong advocate of the 1st amendment myself and I believe that along with rights of freedom comes responsibility.  Maybe you believe it would have been better to have exposed our covert actions during WWII and let Hitler win on the basis of the 1st amendment. Where would our 1st amendment (and the rest of the U.S. Constitution) be then?  There is always some kind of trade off.  Think about it as you continue doing what you do and in the meantime, look at blade of Democles you have placed over your head (and all of the Citizens of the United States).

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 08:21:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: C
Subject: What about me?(MSNBC article)
To: jya@pipeline.com

Hey there.  Just wanted to say I love your site, and decided to write a response to all of your critics about the MSNBC article.  My response is below, if you wish to use it.

I am not a law enforcement officer nor a government official, just to be clear.  I am however, a US citizen who otherwise would NEVER have access to any near truthful material regarding government surveillance within our own borders.  I do, however, have near continuous access to misleading beaurocratic nonsense from people who either think they know what information I should have, or do not have all the information themselves.  This is simply a problem.  Without information such as provided by this site, how am I to get an accurate picture of how our government watches its citizens, citizens just like me?  Should I go watch James Bond films? 

Those who say that information on this site is harmful not just to this country but to individuals in this country ... you're absolutely right.  All information, even the most mundane, can be harmful if improperly used.  Arguing that information should be removed, ignored, or destroyed because it is harmful is a crock of shit.  This is the same argument, although with different specifics, that has reared its ugly head in all forms of censorship and oppression. 

In short, information on this site could result in harm to private individuals contained within said information.  But, you know what?  This information could help me and many others to preserve our privacy and freedom of expression in a time when both seem to be slowly dwindling commodities in a time of rapid change.  This is what I care about.  This is my voice.  This is my information. 

From: T
To: <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: what you found was awesome
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:28:51 -0400

Do you have an archive of the site with the "secret" info made public on the security company?

Anyone breaking our rights needs to be held accountable for what they do.

Some people are given "special rights" not by constitution but by way of a judge to perform certain acts. I can live with this. However, someone must enforce the enforcers. Too much power almost always is abused. There are plenty of ways to catch drug dealers, theives, etc without treading on the common man's rights.

From: C
To: <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: MSNBC report
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:29:01 -0500

Of the many emails you posted in response to the MSNBC report "Stolen data reveals undercover cops",  I would like to echo this person's sentiments.

I read the article on the msn site about your website posting the identities of undercover agents. If the article is accurate, you are endangering their lives by doing so. Those people are just trying to make a living like you and I. In their eyes they are serving their country. I realize that you might be against such surveillance practices, but keep in mind, those agents did not make the policies they are enforcing, the government did. If you have a problem with the policy, you need to contact your congressman. That is the democratic process in this country. If you have a problem with that process, then you need to move to another country. Also, by endangering them, you endanger their families who are innocent bystanders. You have no right to do so. I hope that the article is inaccurate reporting and that you have not done such a thoughtless and unpatriotic thing.

From: K
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:04:15 EDT
Subject: Incredibly Poor Judgment
To: jya@pipeline.com

I have read other people's e-mails expressing their outrage regarding the information you posted about undercover law enforcement agents. My feelings are in line with theirs. What you did can not be justified.

I suppose you would reveal the location and battle plans of American troops in Afghanistan if presented with the information. While you are afraid of the American government spying on people, your actions have revealed your desire to be a spy for criminal elements in this country and perhaps other places. Criminals can simply check your site to gather intelligence that they would not otherwise have. Would you call drug dealers and give them this information personally? I doubt it. Then why would you post the information on the web? The effect of both actions is the same.

If a single person is harmed because of your posting I hope that you are charged with aiding and abetting. 

To: +++
From: S
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:59:00 -0400
Subject: AID Lawsuit

Found this link at Cryptome while following up another article. I'm sure it's old news to some, but I thought it was funny. Where did AID get their ideas from, themselves?


Spy vs. Spy

Suits against ex-employees shed light on a little-known Florida firm that trains agents for the feds

Dan Christensen
Miami Daily Business Review

May 15, 2000

It's real life spy vs. spy, tucked away in a quiet northern section of Broward County, Fla.

Audio Intelligence Devices, a super-secret Coral Springs, Fla., company that sells surveillance equipment and operates secret agent training courses to law enforcement agencies worldwide -- including the FBI, CIA, Drug Enforcement Administration and the Internal Revenue Service -- has gone to court claiming it's a victim of corporate espionage. In two civil cases, one of which recently was sealed by a judge, Audio Intelligence accuses former company executives who now work for competitors of swiping highly sensitive corporate trade secrets on their way out the door. Meanwhile, one of the executives accuses the company of illegally selling spying equipment to the New York City Police Department. If the equipment was used to gather evidence, the executive claims, the evidence may be tainted.

Little is known about the company, Audio Intelligence, which has been manufacturing and selling surveillance equipment to the government for nearly three decades. ... But while little is known about the company, a dispute now taking place could affect the company's ability to maintain some of that secrecy. In addition, it raises questions about the propriety and legality of some of the company's activity. Charles W. Goforth, one of two former Audio Intelligence executives who've been sued, says in court papers that he quit last September after learning the company unlawfully sold about 60 spy transmitters to the New York City Police Department. Kim Douglas Sherman, Goforth's Fort Lauderdale attorney, said in court papers that those electronic bugs weren't legal at the time because they were not sanctioned by the Federal Communications Commission. If police used the devices to make cases without getting approval, he said in a brief interview, any evidence they produced would be tainted. ...

From: "Tim ." <tskorick@hotmail.com>
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Balls
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:17:18 +0000

You have them.  Keep up the good work, no matter the cost.  The stakes are too high to give in to whiners that fail to understand the nature of the technologies of political control.

And you can publish my name too.

From: J
To: "'jya@pipeline.com'" <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Traitor
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:55:07 -0400

Believe it or not, secrecy is important.

Exposing good efforts to bash bad ones is nothing short of treason.

You are an idiot.

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:08:37 -0700
From: J
To: rg, jya@pipeline.com
Subject: [No Subject]

Let me tell you Mr. Young you are a hero. It is incredible how the people are reacting but these are the same people gettin harrased. They talk about how these people put their life on the line or help our community. When was the last time a cop helped me push my car off the road or helped changed my tire. God forbid I need help from them, then end up getting arrested myself. Let me tell you something, america, if it was not for people like Young you would have to get a permission slip to use the toilet! As far as indangering their lives, even after this we are 100 times more likely to be indangered by them than they are of us.

From: M
To: <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:45:29 -0400



From: M
To: "'jya@pipeline.com'" <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:55:33 -0400

You are a dumb ass.  How much time do you spend looking over your shoulder?  Will it really help?  Should you have a sudden accident, this country would be a better place.

Good luck.

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:51:50 -0500
From: C
Subject: MSNBC Article
To: jya@pipeline.com

How disappointing to find out that MSNBC was correct. "Young said he published the data in an effort to provide a peek at the kind of surveillance operations U.S. government agencies regularly perform." I checked your site and you still have the information up. The information would have been just as effective without use of the names, addresses and email addresses of those who do their best to serve an imperfect government in an imperfect world. I am glad that you have the freedom to do what you do, however you need wisdom as well. What you have done in providing the names, etc. is giving a bad reputation to all of us who love our freedom and privacy.

From: M
To: <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: keep up the good work
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:59:52 -0400

We are a government for the people BY the people - we have the right to all info - if the officials don't like it - get a new job! Stop the spying on citizens!

From: P
To: <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: MSNBC Report
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:58:39 -0400

Good work. I do not necessarily agree with your choice to publish these names but i admire your desire to expose the amount of spying that the government performs on its own citizens. My question for all those who believe that peoples' lives are placed in the cross-hairs by report is whether people think that the actual names sent are the names that people use in "undercover operations" and the addresses listed appear to be office names and business addresses. I am doubtful as to whose lives are placed at stake. I doubt any of these supersleuths have their name and number in the local white pages. Those that criticize you seem to think that because an action is government sanctioned that the only means of expressing a dissonant opinion is to vote and simply shut up and watch as freedom evaporates before our eyes. Are these people spying on other citizens keeping the streets safe? I have to say that in a free society that we will never be safe from terrorism because that is the nature of freedom. People's desire to escape from freedom is what produced Nazi germany, do we want to follow that path?

From: J
To: "'jya@pipeline.com'" <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: MSNBC Article
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:18:10 -0700

I read a lot of the letters on your website about revealing names of undercover agents. I couldn't help but notice that the majority of the e-mails sent that were 'Against' what you did seem to be written by very articulate people, expressing themselves quite well. Meanwhile the e-mails in 'Favor' of what you did, seemed just the opposite. Does this tell you something? A little 'Common Sense' is in order. Think.....your actions do have consequences.

From: J
To: <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: shame on you
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:39:32 -0500

I am very saddened that you really would do such an umimaginable thing as to expose so many peoples lives unto the such horrible people who would go out of their way to harm such hard working individuals.  I am horrified that these hereos in our world now have to worry about their lives or the lives of their families.  I hope you wonder every night as you go to bed, if anyone has lost or been hurt due to your sheer stupidity. 

From: O
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: All for it ..
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:34:44 -0500

Hey man, I'm all for your website and have even read your site prior to today.  It stands for a point of view I agree with.  But when my best friend could of easily been one of the names that you published I realize that your actions today went to far.  Normally the information on your site does not really hurt people.  But the info you recently released on the names of undercover agents could do some serious damage.  My Best friend has a 3 year old daughter and another on the way.  The release of his name could of done tons of damage to him and his family.  This information could of been as informative removing the names of the officers and just keeping department information and plans for future use of equipments.   I ask you to please reconsider removing the names and contact information of the information you are supplying ...  The names of some of the officers you have released are of those same people that make the steets safe for you to walk in and of those that came to our rescue in 9/11 ...

From: S
To: <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: MSNBC Article
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:52:14 -0400

You Sir, are whats wrong with this country. Your paranoia can be related to treason to the United States. But you walk under the vail of the "First Amendment", which is total rubbish. I suppose you think you are a patriot? Quite the contrary, we don't need garbage like you in this country abusing our rights as American citizens. To intentionally publish identities of undercover law enforcement officers on a site which condones criminal activity against the governement is insane. I can only hope a traitor like you gets what is coming to him.

From: M
Subject: Confidential Information released on your Website
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:01:57 -0700

While I agree that the tenants of the First Amendment to the Constitution are the legal basis for your actions in posting the names and other confidential information regarding government and law enforcement operatives, and believe very strongly in the protections they afford you, I cannot support you in your excercise of what can only be described as very bad judgement in deciding to post the info.

Rights are not priveledges granted by the Government, but instead protected by the government as required by the Constitution. Rights are only protected by civilized society when doing so ensures the rights of the many and not of the few. When the few, YOU, in this case, overstep the bounds of decency and morality to further your cause, you cause a backlash of public opinion and spur our esteemed legislators into taking action that places restrictions on our rights- counter to your very own efforts.

I pray that my children will never use drugs, be harmed by terrorists, or hurt by strangers, and I fully support the efforts of every law enforcement officer across the country to protect and to serve them and me.

I also pray that not one law enforcement officer-gov't or otherwise is injured as a result of your publication of this data.

Maybe it's about time someone published all the private information they have about you?  Wouldn't that make your life hell...

Here's to hoping the West-Nile virus finds you sooner rather than later.

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:15:00 -0700
From: K
Subject: yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!
To: jya@pipeline.com

fuck those pigs. the drug war is a joke and all those motherfuckers can kiss my ass. i hope some of them get spotted and killed.

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:39:28 -0700
Subject: The AID-NIA database
From: M
To: <jya@pipeline.com>

Like several others have stated here, I found your site after reading the MSNBC article. And I would like to say thank you. The Witless Citizens who have denounced your posting(s), while perhaps having a valid complaint, should be noted but not heeded. They are a grim reminder of just how dangerous a time we now live in. The facts, such as they are, point to an ever increasing intrusion into Privacy and revocation of our Rights by all levels of our government. Unlike the upcoming misguided Iraq scenario, this is a battle worth fighting. And I refuse to follow the 6th grade suggestion that I should relocate to another country if I don't like the way things are. You know what? They can go fuck themselves!!! This isn't his/her country, it's OUR country. And as the founders have provided, if I don't like it, I can tear it down and build a new one. And that is exactly what I think should happen.

Information is necessary for people to make the right decisions. The lack of it leads to faulty or altogether incorrect ones (racism is a prime example). Any who fear information are either to damn LAZY to think for themselves or are themselves using that information to exploit others. Any "moral" argument made by these individuals is moot. Guilt is guilt and ignorance is no defense.  If the facts as posted here on your sight seem like a slap in the face to many it is simply because the propaganda that the mainstream media pollutes the public psyche with is so overwhelming that the mere whiff of a real news story with real implications is just plain overwhelming. Keep up the fight! The truth belongs everyone.

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:59:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Z
Subject: You guys are freakin famous now.....
To: jya@pipeline.com

I think what you did was absolutely amazing, and took a huge amount of guts to do, and that should deserve the internet community's respect.  A large kudos goes out to the Anonymous hacker to stole the AIDS information as well.  Although I kind of miss the point of you making that info public......  I mean, its damn cool and all but since your website is AGAINST the government invading ppl's privacy, didn't you do the same by making it pub?

Anyways, your website is really cool and enjoyable, me and my friends will be supporting your work in the future and I hope you guys don't get into any legal trouble.  Keep it up!!!!!


Gawd, how can I forget.  If you going to post my letter in your site could u please include the following, if not then thats ok cos you are the one I want to read this anyways.

About the people who keep saying what you did was wrong, asshole, traitor, poor judgement, etc.  However, most of those people are just imbeciles who can only start up their browser and read the home page and news, and oh-so-lucky to click on a certain MSNBC article.  These people don't know anything about the internet.  The internet is like a world itself, a huge nation, a virtual world that works differently from the real world (NO, not the Matrix...).   I can see that by posting the AIDS database in your website, it CAN endanger the lives of the agents and officers.....  but it will certainly raise a red flag, or a FEW red flags in that matter, to internet security experts and they should immediately work their ass off into protecting themselves better.  Think about it.  What happens if a terrorist gets teh databbase instead of the Anonymous hacker (KUDOS!!!!!!)?  Wouldn't that be even more dangerous?  I feel that you may have saved lots of lives in the long run.  Security will be tightened and it will be even harder for the serious criminals to hack into America's systems.  You proved your point, I hoped to make it clear.  That's all I have to say.  Good day.

Following added 22 August 2002

From: A
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Posting Personal Information Is WRONG
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:34:46 +0000 (UTC)

I'm a police officer.  I'm very pro-First Amendment, and run a (pro) PGP-oriented website.  I have NEVER broken the law during the performance of my duties, NEVER lied in a report, NEVER used excessive force, and have always set out to do the right thing and help people.  I have a very good sense of right and wrong, and enforce the law in the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law.

I don't see how you can possibly justify the posting of personal information.  Like it or not, you ARE placing the lives of the officers/agents/etc., as well as their families, in danger.  THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS.  One of the posts on your site states, "fuck those pigs. the drug war is a joke and all those motherfuckers can kiss my ass. i hope some of them get spotted and killed."  How many people have seen your website and are willing to actually commit such an act?

I'm all for free speech and informing people of what their government is up to, but there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to post the names, addresses, phone numbers, e-mail addresses, etc.  Many of these people have undoubtably posted their home addresses/phone numbers, and what you have done is extremely irresponsible.  I have submitted my name, home address, etc., to similar websites with an expectation of privacy, and it would scare me to no end to find out that the information I submitted had been posted.  Would you like it if someone stole your mail and posted your personal information on a webpage?  I think not.  The difference here is that someone might ruin your credit.  A law enforcement officer has to worry about far worse consequences.

You want to spread information?  Fine.  You want to spread information which might result in harm to citizens or the country?  FUCK YOU.  You finally got the 15 minutes of fame that you were apparently so desparately seeking.

From: J
To: <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:48:46 -0500

To your site and your producers,

 Hello, when I read the article on the MSNBC Site about the US Narcotics Police and other agents with them was being exposed, I had a sense of great happiness because all the damn shit they do my people in these country who are law-abiding citizens. The "people" I'm refering to is to Arab Americans, who were born here and others who have migrated here. If the Attorney General, who fucking detains 3,000 Arab Americans for months to see if they have any "terrorist" connections to those bastards who hit us on 9/11 and when the goverment was done, the only things they found was a few with expired visas and immigration violations and then calls on to have another 1,000? Your site's cause is great, keep up the good work. If more undercover narcotics polices names are known, this makes it better and easier to enjoy the best drug I do most with my friends, marijuana. Good luck, fuck the system!

From: Martin Q
To: <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: AID
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:14:42 -0500

FUCK YA!! Thank you, it is about time these pigs get what they deserve. It ain't fucking right the fact that they are over here "fighting the war on drugs". YA RIGHT!! The only thing there doing is fucking wasting our money on UNNESECARY SHIT. FUCK THAT!! Why would they keep so much secrecy if they were trying to help us. Why?? Also, what is the deal with all these idiots bitching about this?? I mean, they are complaining about how THEY are being kept in secrecy, FUCK THAT, I want to know who the fuck these "local law enforcment" who are "helping us out". Anyways, I just wanted to say, SHUT THE FUCK UP to whoever is complaining about this shit.

P.S. would you mind not giving out my e-mail adress, but put my name would you?

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 18:15:57 -0700
Subject: The Missed Point
From: M

I don't mean to rant, but do people actually think before they click send on some of these posted messages? Treason? This is laughable in that most people in this country (and I'd bet a fair share of those attacking you) don't even vote! And to them I say "Hypocrite!"  Yes, the names could have been withheld. Perhaps a few truly useful programs may have been hindered by this. However, just how many hardcore criminals, whom these individuals are reportedly battling on a daily basis, visit this site should be considered. Has anyone thought of that? No. They read about it on a mainstream media outlet. Reported there to produce just this kind of indignation and with the goal evidently successful. Now everyone with no grasp of the history of nations or politics casts verbal assaults at you (as well as a nasty disease for good measure) and never criticize MSNBC for aiming all the marginally informed masses to your site. And in the end...? The true goal? Well that is the missed point. Lost in the shuffle and blind knee-jerk anger is the fact that those listed are quite often violating our rights with this kind of training and these devices.

How so, you ask? I'm paranoid you proclaim? Well, I'd like to suggest to all that they keep a running tab on the good Mr. Ashcroft and his almost daily attempts to shred the Constitution like an Enron accounting document. If these people think you're an insensitive, paranoid traitor...well, I'd be very interested to hear their opinions after that little exercise in the truly horrific.

Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 02:05:24 -0700 [date in original]
To: jya@pipeline.com
From: Matthew X <profrv@nex.net.au>
Subject: Peoples Echelon.

Top job jya! It's great to know that your now safely mirrored. If you could publish the names of our local gestapo,(ASIO) I would be forever in your debt.Thanks mate! To all those DEA suckups,the first prohibition didn't work either. Cryptome is the peoples CIA, I love it! FREE JIM BELL!

From: M
To: <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Security concerns AID-NIA
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 18:53:08 -0700

My fellow Americans aren't so bright.  All the addresses are police departments and Federal Offices, Army posts, etc.  I didn't see a single home address on your list. And do we really think CIA operatives are providing their real names and not some cover name on a web form?

What kind of compromising has been done here?  I think we've compromised the intelligence of the public by feeding them so much nonsense through all our news outlets.  Step up people, do some thinking for yourselves.

From: C
To: "John Young" <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Update?
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:35:01 -0700

I see your getting some newsmedia attention lately.

I also tried to access your web site and it was blocked or on active.

Give'em hell!

P.S. Reminds of a situation where someone at High Times magazine printed the names and addresses of DEA personnel. There was a lawsuit or criminal complaint and it ended up HT apologized but used the First Amendment as a defense. Can't remember much about it as it was back in the early or late '70's.

Let me know how you are doing.

I am still fighting U.S. Customs for what they did to me. I need to do some "updates" and I can't seem to find a good web master for FREE yet. Got anybody????   


From: C
To: <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Your Mother Was an Asshole and your a Kook! Better yet, I am not law enforcement
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 21:22:01 -0700

[No message.]

From: M
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 02:08:35 EDT
Subject: Idiots like you
To: jya@pipeline.com

It always disturbs me to read about a traitor to my country. If you have a problem with the govenment in the country in which you live, you don't fix it by printing names which have been "represented" to you by a "reliable source", and endangering their lives. You could have made a mistake that will kill many innocent lives.

My guess is that you are either a 25 year old "wannabe hippie", or you are a 50 year old hippie that never grew up. Either way you must think you have a truly miserable life, and just love to share it with others.

Please, for my sake and other Americans, move to Iraq, Iran, Cuba, or some other country that you must hold in high esteem. The other option I would like is if you would go to some other country and get the psychological help you need.

From: S
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: In Response to MSNBC
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 06:25:45 +0000

I realize that by writing this letter you will not change your mind or do anything different - in your heart you feel that what you did was right - Just to prove your point.

Well first off let me debunk your false statement of: "Don't believe what you read about threats to our public servants and their families; they are far better protected than any of us. "

Any intellegent person would realize that if an agent who is deep undercover is discovered in addition to his home address, that there is a significant risk to himself and his family.

Also being a "public servant" myself I can guarantee that we don't have any extra protection - other then the fact that I may have a firearm and you don't.  Or maybe because we are more security minded and pay 30 bucks a month for a security system.  But if you think we live in steel bunkers or have armed guards your nutts.

In any case my point is this - don't kid yourself.  You posted officers names and addresses online - regardless of if you agree with what they do or not - you placed them at risk and could be responsible for the deaths of these people.  Maybe you have different morals then the rest of us but I stand against being responsible for someone's death.

If there was just the remote chance that someone could die because of your posting, would it be worth it?  Obviously in your mind it would be...

Subject: Spying database
To: jya@pipeline.com
From: A
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:25 -0700

After scrolling through the now infamous database, I notice that the addresses, phone numbers, and (presumably) e-mail addresses are BUSINESS INFORMATION.  These are not home addresses and phone numbers. 

These people are, admittedly, spying on their own fellow citizens.  I suppose I could respond by suggesting the "unpatriotic" people are those who don't believe the First Amendment means what it says and should be different when law enforcement is involved, but I recognize their right to express their opinions.  That is what the First Amendment is all about. 

Ignorance is the friend of despotic governments.  While I may not have gone as far as you did, the backlash I've read goes too far. 

It's very easy to label those who monitor the government (the same government that gladly monitors them without their knowledge) as "paranoid" or "traitors" (Ashcroft would be proud of that tag), but let's recall just a few recent examples of reasons to be watchful of the police and/or government:

1.  LA Rampart Division (remember that little news story where police officers admitted they killed and framed innocent men?)

2.  Carnivore - probably soon to be unleased on this site - a program the government kept using to monitor people even after they declared they had discontinued its use

3.  Ashcroft (too many examples to list here)

4.  Wenatchee, WA sex ring scandal (many people wrongly accused and convicted by the government).

And what about the corruption in the New Orleans police force?

Not all police officers (or even a majority) are corrupt or dishonest.  However, does that mean we should just close our eyes and trust the government to do the right thing? 

From: J
To: <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Our Rights Eroded
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:43:08 -0700

I certainly don't have time to go down the list but over the past 50 years in this country our rights as citizens have been eroded considerably.  If you look at the things the average citizen could do in 1950 compared with the things we are "allowed" to do today and the kinds of things we are "allowed" to own, there has been an incredible change.  From fire arms (which I do not own one) to automobiles, our freedoms are being picked away at slowly.  If you spoon feed us a little bit of shit at a time pretty soon we've eaten he whole turd and are asking for more.  Anything that can be done to reverse that tide is welcome.

Subject: Freedom
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 06:40:31 -0400
From: C
To: <jya@pipeline.com>

Blessed be those who fight for the rights of the common man: even though the majority of the common folk are too ignorant to even say thank you.

Thank You

From: P
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: We don't want you. Go away.
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 08:40:16 -0300

John Young,

Without a doubt you have at least one more enemy today than you did yesterday.  ME.  And I feel sure you now have thousands more.  Your time is over very soon, if not now.  I am not even a US citizen, but I think you should be jailed immediately, tried, and found guilty of behaviour that jeopardizes the safety of fellow citizens.  If you cause any loss of life or limb you should die in the electric chair - I would be willing to pull the switch myself in order to protect others from you and you actions.  Your views tend toward the extreme, and you are not working in concert with most of your fellow citizens, therefore, you have to go somewhere else because you are a threat to the safety of people around you, and in my opinion you are absolutely not worth trying to re-educate.    You are not a team player, and I hope you are expelled from society somehow very soon for placing people's safety and security in jeopardy.  I, for one, do not want you around.  Go away, fast, if you can.  We, average, ordinary citizens who want protection, do not want yours, or your company. We don't want you.


Average citizen of North America

Kentville, Nova Scotia, Canada

From: D
To: <jya@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 08:23:27 -0500

  I just visited your web site. I have to tell you "thanks" for the eye opening info. I have been concerned about "BIG BROTHER" for a long time. The governments wanting to control every aspect of our lives. Who the HELL do they think they are?  I don't need no damn government to tell me what, when ,where , and how to do something.

   What is sad is that the more we learn about our government the more we should fear them.

   The government is nothing but liars who are really only serving their own purpose, "to make themselves and the wealthy more wealthy"


Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 10:04:47 -0700
From: C
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: AID-NIA spying database

The thrust of the present campaign against terrorists is to fill our country with fear of others rather than faith in ourselves. At government behest, we are being turned into the land of the not awfully free and the home of the not frightfully brave.

Ignorance is a main pillar of fear. Authoritarians pile it on. Mr. Young does his best to demolish it.  More power to him. More light!

Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:47:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: B
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: thanks.

You have taken a ridiculous amount of heat for publishing the names of those officers, but it is probably far more likely that you saved their lives and others by doing so.

If that information was available, then the kind of people whose business is to know it would have found it. If that information was secret, then it was dangerous for those who thought its secrecy was protecting them, as evidently it was not.

It is a shame that your critics do not recognize this.

From: M
To: <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Support
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 11:34:46 -0700

It's odd how people feel that they shouldn't be accountable and everyone else should. Police hold a public trust and should never have more rights/privileges then the average citizen they are sworn to protect. To those good officers that are not megalomaniacs but instead love the freedom they help protect I salute them. To think though that you are separated from the public is incorrect. The rights of the public have been so eroded that we as a whole cannot be part of that protection. I don't call the police when my neighbors kid turns up his music too loud, I walk over and talk to them. I don't call the police to give me a ride when my car breaks down on the freeway in 110 degree heat. People give up too much and expect so little from themselves. The police you to watch over the people. now they're watching the people, it's time to start watching them.

P.S. and to all the speculative people out there throwing any unrelated trash about how somehow giving air to our governments dirty laundry is equal to selling out our country to a foreign nation is just plain stupid. I think our founding fathers would be proud of you Mr. Young.

Subject: Government spying
To: jya@pipeline.com
From: A
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 12:40 -0700

In my haste yesterday, I forgot to mention one of the government's most insidious recent attempt to spy on us:  TIPS.

Now there was a good plan: employ your local postal carrier or meter reader to report any "suspicious activities" (whatever the hell that means).  Why bother with a little nuisance like the Fourth Amendment when you can get people to monitor people's homes without a warrant?

Should we waive our constitutional rights for the sake of the war on terrorism?  I believe the outcry when TIPS was announced answered that question.

It goes back to the age-old adage:  Who watches the watchers?

From: C
To: <jya@pipeline.com>
Subject: Published undercover list
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 16:56:13 -0400


We all know that the government operates in secret against it's own citizens (i.e. mkultra). I am not a cop, narc, or drug dealer. Just an average law abiding American husband and father. I fear that if the government continues in the direction it is going with it's secrecy, lies, and violations of it's citizens privacy, that my children and grandchildren will be in greater danger from them than from the very small percentage (by population) of "dangerous" criminals. Keep up the good work! To those who are critical of what you have done, you're already brainwashed!

From: R
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: MSNBC AID article
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 20:25:53 -0400

I realize that this letter is VERY long, but I feel that 99% of its content is valid for public consumption on your forum.

This forum posting is intended for every one of you who threatened John Young or called him a “hippie” “traitor” after you read the MSNBC article on the AID posting.  I will preface this statement by declaring this is not a personal political soapbox (which both sides of this argument seem to abuse with “Black and White” abandon in an America inundated with “Gray” issues).  This statement is just an outside perspective on the Selective Filtering people use when Interpreting Mass Media.

Regardless of anyone’s ability to clearly articulate his or her views on the AID list posting, any opinions are to be appreciated and applauded for effort at the very least.  Thankfully, we're all free to exercise the First Amendment in a public forum about the potential dangers to law enforcement officers/government agents as well as and the need to inform American Citizens of the surveillance techniques researched and/or used by said government organizations.

Please take the time to explore the home page of this website as well as to thoroughly peruse the “list.”  You will find a large number of discrepancies between the website/list content and the subjects of complaint voiced in this forum.  This implies that many of you who feverishly oppose John Young on this forum allowed The Media to shape your perceptions without taking the time to actually Investigate cryptome.org.  And many of you may not have even taken the time to fully read the MSNBC article itself that led you to this website.

I noticed on the homepage John Young’s personal contact information (posted well before any of you “demanded” he make his info public like he did for his “victims”).  There was also a very interesting note from the man himself:  “Documents are removed from this site only by order served directly by a US court having jurisdiction. No court order has ever been served; any order will be published here or elsewhere if gagged by order.”

If I’m writing this posting about a “dangerous list” I just read 2 days after it was sensationalized on MSNBC and 20 days after it first appeared on this website, doesn’t that say something about this list’s Actual potential for danger?  I think we’ve all learned enough about the American censorship process (as well as the media’s eagerness to exploit this process) that if we haven’t seen anything about a court case concerning the AID list on cryptome.com Yet, the government probably doesn’t care about it.

So, let’s just assume for a minute that the list really is dangerous.  If the US Government isn’t trying to censor it, shouldn’t the US Government be to blame for endangering these agents/officers’ and their families’ lives as well?  Oh, it’s much easier to call a “hippie” a traitor than to look at the source.  And I’m not saying that the US Government is at fault.  That body has its job to do, protecting each of us as effectively as it can, and it’s current inaction in relation to this incident makes me feel that the list is in fact not dangerous.  Here’s why:

1. Noone’s home information was posted because noone in America wants to do work-related business at home (I’d also be interested in knowing if it is Legal to make work-related inquiries about surveillance equipment at home or if AID even Allows logons from computers not wired into Law Enforcement Facilities).

2. MSNBC attempted contacting each of the names on that list.  It doesn’t take a genius to know that if you find out your contact info is on the net and you’re in a purposefully low-profile occupation, you take immediate measures to drop back below the radar.  I’m sure each of the people identified on that list has taken or is in the process of taking appropriate measures.

3. What drug lord or drug dealer is Stupid enough in today’s America to take on the Police?  Or even the DEA?  What drug lord is Stupid enough to have one of his flunkies put an officer/agent and/or his/her family in danger?  Who would want that type of Heat and Notoriety from the rest of the Law Enforcement Community?  This isn’t Colombia, with the Generalisimo and half his force in the Cartel’s back pocket.  This isn’t even Al Capone and Franco Nitti blasting cops w/ their Tommy Guns in a semi-liquorless 1930’s Chicago. This is America in the 22nd Century.  An America where, after 9/11, a dead Cop is an Instant Martyr.  If the cops don’t get to a cop-killing drug dealer in time, the public itself would most likely lynch that person as well as his fellow dealers in the streets.

4. It’s been 20 days since this list went public and there hasn’t been one story in the news about a single officer/agent being Confronted or even Threatened, much less even being harmed.

Noone on this forum has even mentioned the fact that AID may have some responsibility in this incident as well.  According to the MSNBC article that brought most of us here, AID’s data access protocols (or lack thereof) made the list “…available for download to anyone using simple File Transfer Protocol software.”  Do you wonder if the good people at AID are getting the same hate mail as John Young, or do many post-JE Hoover Americans still need to find a Scapegoat when the crap hits the fan?  Judging from some of the comments from officers/agents in that article, AID may have to worry about something heavier than it’s online security measures:  a Tarnished Reputation in the Eyes of Its Niche Consumer Base.

Does anyone remember the Kevin Bacon Game?  For those of you who had better things to do than to play it, the Kevin Bacon Game leads you to believe that any two people on the face of the planet are no more than 7 degrees (people, in this case) of separation from each other.  Today, I put that theory to the test to find out how easy it would be to contact Undercover Officers serving on a Federally Funded Drug Task Force in the field, without using the AID list.  Ten minutes of Federal website surfing and three phone calls to complete strangers later, I had my first Undercover Narcotics Agent cell phone number.

The lesson to learn here is simple.  People will find a way to accomplish whatever goal they Really want to.  In any capacity.  In any situation.  To achieve any result.  As long as they really want to and they are just a little bit creative and have some sac.  Officers/Agents are counting on the fact that the intelligence and bravado curves of most criminals usually don’t coincide.  And for those criminals who are smart and aggressive?  Well, they don’t need public access to a website to wreak havoc.  They need to be apprehended.

Undercover officer/agents already have to worry about compromises in their identities.  Like being followed back to their real lives by some drug lord’s henchman.  Like getting caught wearing a wire.  Like being put in a situation in which their very morality may be challenged to maintain the “cover.”  Like being undercover and running into that punk that he or she busted as a Patrol Cop.

Police Officers and Federal Agents are aware of the risks involved in their jobs as soon as they decide serving and protecting is what they want to do.  I back the Concept of public service and can happily say that most of the people I know have had fairly decent experiences involving law enforcement.  They command and deserve respect because of the inherent risks they undertake.  And because They Watch Us When We Sleep.

I urge anyone who feels the need to publicize an argument on any issue to research Both Sides.  If you do not, the odds of instantly destroying your opinion’s credibility in the eyes of your audience increase dramatically.  And for those of you who choose to be rude and ignorant in your comments, you are doing Absolutely Nothing to add credence to the conservative argument.

Judging from the emotion and apparent mindset of some of the arguments in this forum (especially those who paint lavishly with words like “hippie” and “traitor”), I’ll assume that a few of you are either veteran or at least prior military.  You probably even think I’m one of those hippie traitors as well.

Well, let me tell you who I am, since so many of you think your credentials give you the right to pass judgement on others.  And I am willing to take Ownership of my opinions.

I am a mild-mannered Advertising Consultant working in the recruitment field.  Today.  Nine years ago, I began an enlisted stint in the US Navy’s encryption communities and had that same Navy pay for my college in it’s Officer Training Corps.  I’m an Eagle Scout who Earned my US Citizenship at the age of 14, having been born in a Vietnam-era Brothel City in the South Pacific.  I chose my permanent name when I was 5 years old:  my adopted Father’s name.  He was a Frogman that dove body cleanup on Monday, December 8, 1941, at Pearl Harbour.  A UDT (Underwater Demolition Team operative) that lost his leg blasting reef beyond the 38th Parallel to prepare MacArthur for invasion into Indo-China before Truman pulled the plug on the Korean War.  That same man who shaped my values was a civilian advisor to the Kennedy board that created the SEAL/BUDS program and later a Sheriff in the Midwest.  75% of my childhood friends are either in the military or in federal law enforcement:  an Officer in a state National Guard NBC (Nuclear, Biological, Chemical) Attack Reactionary Team, a federal advisor on anti-terrorism, 3 Navy SEALS, 5 Navy Pilots, a Border Patrol Agent, a former US Army Ranger Battallion Korean DMZ Company Commander, a FBI Sharpshooter, a Delta Force Operator, and an Immigration & Naturalization Service Background Investigator.

My respect for the people who serve us all could not be higher than it is as any given moment.  At the same time, my friends, my family, and every person I’ve ever served with realize the importance of personal freedoms in the shadow of a governing body.  People deserve to have the opportunity to know what methods may be implemented in privacy, or even non-privacy violating surveillance situations.  Hell, they’d probably see the same stuff AID peddles on Discovery Channel anyway.

John Young, I do not believe you are a hippie traitor.  If anything, I believe you may be a Patriot; an American who cares about the welfare of his fellow Americans.  It is my Hope that you are Not, in all actuality, a Manipulator who molds public perception to achieve his own goals.  Please keep in mind that the mission statement of your website reflects intentions of Service to the People.

And please do remember that Discretion in appropriate situations may be necessary.   Like if some hacker ever gave you Tactical Plans (and by “Plans” I mean strategies not yet enacted) to be used by the US Military against a Foreign Threat.  Then, we all may have to reassess our evaluation of your Patriotism.

Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 19:33:12 -0500
From: T
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Keep Up The Great Work

Government that operates in secret is a threat to liberty.

Thanks for keeping us informed.

From: A
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: AID-NIA spying database
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 05:10:10 +0200 (CEST)

I'm a vet, and I can't help laughing when watching a group of heavily armed "heroic" police officers, who needlessly beat some poor dumb kid while arresting him for committing a misdemeanor, cry like babies when they realize that serving in an armed profession brings the possibility of injury or death. Maybe these "heros" would feel safer serving in communist North Korea or China, where the police "shoot first policy" makes for a safe profession.

If you cops aren't willing to protect the citizens by obeying the Constitution, maybe you should consider a profession where you can serve on your knees. In the meantime, you may want to consider not releasing personally identifying information about yourselves to any internet site - you stupid cowards.

Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 11:51:15 -0500
From: X
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: aid-nia comment

Let me first say that I agree with your reasons for posting the AID-NIA list of policemen; fact is, if you can obtain this list, then criminals or terrorists certainly could have obtained it and many probably already have it. The other political arguments for publishing the list need no reiteration if, as just shown, there is no valid security concern; information is by default free in a free society. However, given how your site is providing further exposure for these names, I believe that you are ethically bound to make an attempt to contact the people named in the files, either via their email addresses or their telephone numbers. If you truly agree with the reasoning that "instead what poses a threat is for agents not to know their names are being disseminated covertly," then upon receiving these names you are bound to make a good-faith effort to report to them that their identity has been compromised.

Keep up the good work.

Student, Yale University

[P.S. Please identify me as "Student, Yale University.".]

From: A
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Publicizing public servants
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 16:49:30 +0200 (CEST)

I read the responses to your publication of public information about public servants performing their public duties. Incredibly it seems many people object to such information being public.

We are told that we must be surveilled for our own protection. Dossiers must be assembled. Title III must give way to searches, sneak and peek, wiretapping, microphones, computer tapping, disk copying ---- all without probable cause, and little if any oversight. Ashcroft is stonewalling even congressional demands for information on how he is using "Patriot" Act powers. And that Act must be applied not just to "terrorism" but to any "criminal" interest they might have. And we are told it's for our own good. Knowing I invoke Godwin's law, Ashcroft isn't the first to make that statist case.

Well if it is good for the goose, it's good for the gander. We need videos, audio recordings, photographs, names, and more on those who are surveilling us. If the private files of a "person of interest" are forwarded by police and FBI to news media for publication, it's time to open up the personal files and lives of those doing the surveilling and trafficking in the details of our personal lives.

You know the question they apply to the rest of us: WHAT DO THEY HAVE TO HIDE? If they don't have anything to hide, why do they care?

Let's get some perp walk video on these guys. They aren't convicted of any crime, just like the perps they invite news media over for photo opps. If the watchers feel they have to wear black ski masks that says it all. Secret police are just going to have to dress like secret police.

It's time to seriously increase the watching of the watchers. If they want to make it illegal to photograph public servants doing their public services in public, let them introduce that legislation at 11:59pm some night and get the usual congressional rubber stamp so that even the sheep can know what the deal is more clearly beyond any doubt.

You will of course be shut down. You need to simultaneously post that information to eternity servers and other high availability destinations.

Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:08:26 -0500
From: X
Subject: RE: AID-NIA
To: jya@pipeline.com

When too many people accept coercion, intrusion, and intimidation as synonymous with security and safety, I take comfort in your willful refusal to live that mewling, pusillanimous travesty of liberty and freedom. I am amused by those so affrighted by revelation of the insecurity of 'secure systems', they strike at you with curses and spells. Better to cling to sordid illusion than live in stark cold reality, n'est-ce pas? Let us revisit McLuhan: the medium is the message.

Anarchy is not an easy path to carve and so few ever dare live a life of self-rule. Perhaps the sheer horror of absolute personal responsibility is too great for most to bear. Thank you for carrying the weight.

Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:52:04 -0400
From: J
To: jya@pipeline.com
Subject: NIA database comment

I'd like to cast my vote in favor of what you have posted, even though I know a few of those people.  We all have to work in a society where we are held accountable for our actions, and where no man is above the law.  If policemen need to hide in corners, lie, cheat, steal, in order to catch criminals, then who exactly are the criminals?  And why are we paying them?

It appropriate under our Constitution to disclose where public monies are being spent, and who we are paying to protect us.  I am held accountable at my job. The President is held accountable at his job.   Police work should be equivalent.  And yes, that makes the work harder when you can't act like a criminal.  But all things worthwhile are.

I understand the ire of half of the people posting.  What they are not understanding is that it is not the right of your own government to use your money to lie, cheat, steal, spy, minipulate, or harm you.  Spying is legitimate and necessary when used against foreign nations and states.  This is well known.  But, if covert operations are repeatedly used against it's own citizens, there will be no trust, and no societal support, and will result in no government worth sustaining. 

I support what you did.  The people on that list should understand, and I'm sure many of them do, that they are serving the public.  And that they are at risk in doing so.  But, if they do so honestly, then more of the community will help them do their jobs when they need it.  And over time, their jobs will become less hazardous and easier because of community support.  How many people today would carry an FBI agent out of harms way if they were in trouble?  I don't want to answer that, I'll let you.

25 August 2002

I support the posting of names of AID/NIA customers. This outfit has been involved with CIA-sponsored terrorism in Latin America. For example, it was associated with DINA terrorist Michael Townley, who was one of the DINA agents who assassinated Orlando Letelier in Washington DC on September 21, 1976.

If major media such as MSNBC, with the resources to separate the Townleys from the "small-town cops just doing their jobs," are not even able to do a little basic background research on AID/NIA before dissing Cryptome, then perhaps it's also time to start publishing lists of cheap-shot MSNBC reporters.

When major media starts doing their job, then Cryptome won't have to exist. But of course, major media never will, and that's another story entirely.

Meanwhile, more information on AID/NIA can be found here:



-- Daniel Brandt